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The New Yorker on Linus Torvalds (newyorker.com)
Linus Torvalds announced on Sunday that he was sorry for how he treated the community over the years. Torvalds, 48, said he planned to make some changes to how he conducted himself, and on that part, he said he would be taking some time off from Linux kernel development work. The New Yorker has published a story on Torvalds today in which it notes that it reached out to Torvalds days before he made the big announcement. From the story, which may be paywalled for some readers: Torvalds's decision to step aside came after The New Yorker asked him a series of questions about his conduct for a story on complaints about his abusive behavior discouraging women from working as Linux-kernel programmers. In a response to The New Yorker, Torvalds said, "I am very proud of the Linux code that I invented and the impact it has had on the world. I am not, however, always proud of my inability to communicate well with others -- this is a lifelong struggle for me. To anyone whose feelings I have hurt, I am deeply sorry."
Torvalds's response was conveyed by the Linux Foundation, which supports Linux and other open-source programming projects and paid Torvalds $1.6 million in annual compensation as of 2016. The foundation said that it supported his decision and has encouraged women to participate but that it has little control over how Torvalds runs the coding process. "We are able to have varying degrees of impact on these outcomes in newer projects," the statement said. "Older more established efforts like the Linux kernel are much more challenging to influence."
Linux's elite developers, who are overwhelmingly male, tend to share their leader's aggressive self-confidence. There are very few women among the most prolific contributors, though the foundation and researchers estimate that roughly ten per cent of all Linux coders are women. "Everyone in tech knows about it, but Linus gets a pass," Megan Squire, a computer-science professor at Elon University, told me, referring to Torvalds's abusive behavior. "He's built up this cult of personality, this cult of importance."
Torvalds's response was conveyed by the Linux Foundation, which supports Linux and other open-source programming projects and paid Torvalds $1.6 million in annual compensation as of 2016. The foundation said that it supported his decision and has encouraged women to participate but that it has little control over how Torvalds runs the coding process. "We are able to have varying degrees of impact on these outcomes in newer projects," the statement said. "Older more established efforts like the Linux kernel are much more challenging to influence."
Linux's elite developers, who are overwhelmingly male, tend to share their leader's aggressive self-confidence. There are very few women among the most prolific contributors, though the foundation and researchers estimate that roughly ten per cent of all Linux coders are women. "Everyone in tech knows about it, but Linus gets a pass," Megan Squire, a computer-science professor at Elon University, told me, referring to Torvalds's abusive behavior. "He's built up this cult of personality, this cult of importance."
I've had a personal epiphany
oh yeah and there may possibly also be a story about me and this subject coming out in a major publication in a few days too
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
Linux enabled me to get a first post, my dear sir.
Keep on keepin' on, and tell those donkeys to get fucked.
Being anti-social and lacking empathy doesn't make you a better coder, it makes you an asshole. You can be both; a good coder and a good person. Being deficient in a healthy human emotion shouldn't be a badge of honor.
I work in medicine, and while many fail at empathy, at least there is a focus on it.
I hate fat people.
People who are jerks get their asses kicked. It's only hiding behind a keyboard do you see this becoming an issue.
With something as important as the kernel, only the best effort can be accepted. His passion is fine. No one has a right to not be offended.
The name TorValds has possibly appropos meanings in Norwegian and German. In Norwegian it means "many threats" or "much daring" according to a raw text translation. (presumably it's more nuanced and related to Thor if you are Norwegian).
In German it text translated to a "Array of building openings" or a "forest of Doors". Which I think sounds like a description of "Windows" on an office building.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
It seems more and more certain that Linus has indeed fallen to one of the "honeypots" and is being blackmailed.
I hope nothing bad happens to Linus. Other lives have been ruined by the suspected group of people.
I always though Linus was a bit of a douche bag, but really, a lot of intelligent people who achieve "fame" or success relatively young are. I think the same personality type that leads to the dedication needed to create something as important as Linux, also tends to create less than stellar human beings.
"That's the way to do it" - Punch
So? Linux has likely become successful exactly because of the behaviour of the developers. There's no 'fluffing' anything, it's simply good enough to go in, or shit and shouldn't be in. Linux has succeeded, and is in great shape and this has been the way since it started and likely the 'behaviour' has contributed to that directly.
If that's what it takes for this to keep succeeding, should it change? Probably not.
Self-awareness is good.
Forcing him to change isn't.
I'm quite sure Linus is an equal opportunity asshole. If people have trouble with his management style, perhaps a public forum isn't the correct setting to discuss it. Also, as stated in the article, many of these people are paid to contribute to the kernel. Being an asshole at the top does him quite well, because he can manage the self interests of all these huge contributors and not let any one company's priorities take over and ruin the whole thing. If Linux gets too feely, all a company has to do is put in a diversity coder and they can run roughshod over the stated project goals.
If you are contributing for free you are a fucking idiot. Pay for execs at the Linux foundation and Linus is insane.
They kicked out the creator. Remember that.
I'd like to see at least a couple of proofs of this egregiously dubious statement.
You have made for the humanity what every one else HAVE NOT!
Thanks man!
... I have to ask, does this mean you can suggest women are more influenced by abusive behavior, and that's not sexist?
"his abusive behavior discouraging women from working as Linux-kernel programmers"
Abusive behavior discourages anyone good from working on a project. You're left with losers, sycophants, and fanatics. Only the fanatics are possibly any good, but they'll mimic the abusive behavior and possibly lead the project down wrong roads because they believe so strongly in whatever they're doing. *cough* systemd *cough*
Plenty of people out there see any sort of strong self-confidence as "jerk behavior." In fact the more insecure the individual, the more hopelessly assholeish your confidence will appear to them.
Summary is confusing. It's talking about Linus's straight-forward or aggressive behavior and is then talks about women being discouraged from working on the kernel, as if those are related. But is there actually sexism that has been demonstrated within the kernel dev community, or is it just implied that women are less capable of working in high-stress or tense situations and that men need to act more fluffy?
That implication sounds more sexist than how the kernel dev community has operated.
Of course it's somehow unthinkable to draw the conclusions that fewer women work on the kernel because fewer women want to work on the kernel.
Do you think that, maybe, people with anti-social psychological makeups are drawn to a field where they don't really need to talk to anyone to accomplish something?
Most people would consider me to be a nice guy. Maybe a little off in one way or another, but I'm affable. That doesn't mean that I *like* to talk to people. I'm working from home today. I'm going to write code for nine hours straight without talking to another human being (besides occasionally looking at /. ) I'm perfectly fine with this.
I work with marketing, services and support people who can't stand not talking. They constantly come around and talk to other people about stuff, not necessarily work related. I don't mind it, but I'd rather not.
I work with people who come off as jerks if you would meet them in passing, but I understand their mindset. They don't like talking to people. It's not that they hate you, they would rather not interact with you.
This is the central disconnect, I think. People who are - I guess you can call them introverts - would simply rather not talk to other people. It's not that they don't like women, or minorities, or any other specific category of people. They don't like talking to *people* All inclusive. That doesn't make it OK. That doesn't make them not jerks. But understanding their mindset is important in dealing with them.
My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
Itâ(TM)s sad that a deluded, middle aged man who believes heâ(TM)s a woman can bully people.
Why must SJWs infect everything?
1) He created the Linux kernel, which is one of the most essential pieces of software in computing today. Everything else sits on an operating system, which is the thing which interfaces with the hardware.
2) He created a wholly new management method and workflow, for this open source, distributed development process.
Casually brushing these two points aside, like he's some unremarkable CEO, doesn't do the man's achievements justice.
Once things are created, people take them for granted, like a kernel or a country.
Of course it's women
It's hilarious that hardly anyone cares thst he was mean to men, it's the WOMEN that must be coddled.
This is obviously a patronizing move, but "progressive" ppl are stupid, so they can't see that
Women are the same and equal in every aspect to men, but they can't work in an abusive male environment? Not that I would like being called a dumbass, but Linus' zero tolerance to bad code is what made Linux such a successful project. What is next, do we want to transform the army to be more inclusive?
So you dislike men?
Or meritocracy?
Or you're both sexist AND support mediocrity/stagnation?
I'll wait
Linux's elite developers, who are overwhelmingly male, tend to share their leader's aggressive self-confidence. There are very few women among the most prolific contributors, though the foundation and researchers estimate that roughly ten per cent of all Linux coders are women.
So women are the same as men, and if you don't think so, you are a knuckle dragging sexist.
On the other hand, women are so different from men that they bring magical special goodness to a project. So we need to do whatever we can to bring them in.
*Anonymous Coward slaps dskoll around a bit with a large trout
Linus didn't "build up this cult of personality, this cult of importance", he actually built one of the most important pieces of software on the planet. People respect and accept his behavior because he delivers. Nobody ever forced anybody to work with Linus.
If you don't like someone, don't work with them. If you don't like a company, don't buy their products. If you don't like who an open source project is run, fork the project and do better. Stop intruding into other people's business.
It's a choice I exercise frequently.
And by all available, reasonably hard facts, it is because women in general want to become engineers significantly less often than men. Stop complaining, let women decide what they want to do in life and accept that! And no, it is not discrimination, harassment or "the patriarchy". It is just that women are fully capable human beings that can make their own decisions on what they want to do in life.
As a result, you will have significantly less female contributors in any larger tech project, whether in leadership position or more hands-on position. Again, stop complaining about this, it is by choice and it actually shows that women these days make their own decisions regarding what career they want. Implying that all these women that decide not to go into engineering are weak, oppressed little children that cannot make their own decisions or run away crying as soon as some hasher words are used (as is frequently done by "feminists") is one of the most misogynistic and repulsive things I know.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
No, that's a totally false statement. Neither of the traits — neither individually nor together — are a prerequisites to being an asshole, nor are sufficient to be one.
There are empathic assholes — using their perception of your emotions to their own ends. There are also nice introverts — you just have to communicate with them explicitly, rather than expect them to understand you via unspoken clues.
... and formal logic was an optional course in your premed program, so you never took it, because the TA was a nerd... Maybe, you shouldn't be passing judgements on these (nonexistent) "tech-bros"? Especially, if your primary source of information about them is the New Yorker?
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
He's autistic, simple. Most people with autism, specifically Asperger's, make great coders because of their attention to detail and ability to focus. Social interaction however, not so much. I know, I'm a coder, I have Asperger's, I relate to code, humans not so much.
Does he reject code written by women ? Probably .... if it's bad code!. Does he know if a male or female wrote it ? Only based on the submitter's email address which can easily be faked or changed I would presume.
People can do whatever they want, including forking the project if it gets too stuck in the sticky, cloying, saccharine clutches of the SJWs.
There will always be a band of Men who huddle in their garages to work on something Diffferent, and one of those groups will inevitably produce the Next Big Thing into which the feckless females will once more try to feel their way into some position of power. And so the cycle goes.
Long live the freedom to appropriate one's capital the way one sees fit; long live Capitalism; Meritocracy don't care about your fefes.
The biggest cunts are the best creators, usually, if they also have motivation behind them.
On the other hand, the biggest cunts without motivation usually whine the most about the ones that do. (like all the ones whining about Linus lol)
I get on with it. The only thing I whine at are other peoples inabilities.
I couldn't give a fuck if they had 156 titties or were demigodhelipadsexual, if they can shit out golden code that's the only thing I care about.
If you can't, fuck right off and go send your CV to Google, Facebook or some other worthless shit company.
They seem to be hiring you retards in droves for some reason. You people and your Udemy 3 week courses whatever meme language / library of the month it is. It's your chance, milk them for all they have!
It isn't so much a cult of personality, more cunts create and that's it.
Some cunts create good, solid functional code, some cunts whine the loudest and create the biggest drama.
Focus is the issue. Maybe stop being a whiny fuck and change your focus to putting out Good Code instead.
All you "goto is bad" and similar retards can fuck off with your fake-gotos like break.
If you like UML, you can also fuck off. UML was made for retards. It was made to inflate job roles so more retards can get involved because they don't want to put the effort in to learn how to understand code.
All so Mr. McManager Fuckface can understand and meddle.
Don't see this shit in medicine.
I hate the duality. Essentially, the lie.
On one hand, we're told women are intelligent, not emotional, not moody, not timid afraid things, that jump at shadows, faint at loud noises, and the like.
The next, we're told that what men will put up with, including SOMETIMES obnoxious behaviour, scares women away. Makes them afraid to contribute. Causes them more stress.
It can't be both, ladies. You can't be "just like men" and at the same time "entirely not like men". You can't think precisely like men, but then think better/differently then men when it is convenient.
Do you think men are afraid of challenge? Unable to cope? Well, most of the people Linus yells at *are men*, yet they're still there! Coding away! Sure, some have left, but from the threads I've seen? Good. GOOD.
I get the feeling that in these modern times, NO ONE, EVER, should EVER EVER feel bad. Oh no, feeling bad is just -- why, it's just wrong, it is!
One thing historically attributed to females is that they're NEVER EVER wrong. That they can't take criticism. That they require eternal, ever lasting external validation, just to feel happy.
Yet, what are we seeing here? The precise, same thing. Don't EVER tell a woman her code sucks. Don't EVER yell at her (via email, none the less!) if she isn't listening to that criticism. Don't EVER criticize, how dare you, HOW DARE YOU!
From the villain saddling the world with Windoz — and actively sabotaging compatibility with other people's software (DR-DOS, Samba), perception of Bill Gates has been gradually rising over the past 20 years — even on Slashdot, where the supposed "nerds" really ought to know better.
And now a very personal attack on Linux and Linus (if you can even separate the two) — who, along with the BSDs and GNU have been providing the computing world with the alternatives.
If New Yorker is not partaking of the Gates' PR campaign, they are leaving money on the table...
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
This shit is nothing but porn for media to enrich themselves with more PC garbage and faux controversy.
The real reason Linus is leaving is to get away from public lynch mob based on intentionally distorted reality created by the media. Now the media gets to report on and gloat about the efficiency of their own handiwork.
I've read a number of his messages. They were expressing displeasure at substandard behavior and results not attacking individuals.
Being abrasive is now a capital offense because the media wants everyone to believe hurting peoples feelings is not ok.. you can't do that because you'll scare away the few women with any interest in writing software. As if they give any more or less of a shit than anyone else. It's all fucking ridiculous and the media is always front and center in professionally trolling the public. Hyperbole and amplification of unimportant nonsense until it reaches the level of capital crime is literally what the media does on a 24x7 basis.
If you are not continuously outraged and afraid media is loosing money. They can hit anyone and everyone they please with zero accountability.
The reason you never capitulate and never admit fault even if you believe it yourself and want to do it is that the apology will be leveraged to justify every hyperbolic narrative levied against you not just what you are actually admitting to.
"This is not a dick sucking contest"
"SHUT THE FUCK UP"
Anything to catch the readers attention and self-enrichment regardless of actual merit. The media is in desperate need of a taste of it's own medicine.
Speech unintended for global audience such as "We'll do it live" is just the tip of the iceberg. Rather curious how so many talking heads on TV are disproportionately young good lucking females. There is plenty of PC outrage to be reported out in the same manner as the media about the media. It's about time they are held accountable for trolling the public.
Current social norms assume that diversity is universally beneficial for any organization working on any project. While it is obviously true for any human-facing organization, it is less clear that infrastructure projects like Linux would benefit. While diversity can be beneficial, its not without its drawbacks and costs that should be considered. For example, uniformity makes it easier to standardize or build consensus. Diversity can lead to increase of in-group formation, politicing, and turf wars.
The question that should be objectively examined, but is likely impossible to do so in a current political climate, is whether increasing diversity of the Linux contributors would lead to a better Linux kernel. Empirically, merit-based approach worked well up to this point and it isn't clear that it should be replaced by diversity-based approach. It is conceivable that all-white, all-male, all-antisocial, all-hostile group of kernel developers would produce the best possible kernel.
"Everyone in tech knows about it, but Linus gets a pass," Megan Squire, a computer-science professor at Elon University, told me, referring to Torvalds's abusive behavior. "He's built up this cult of personality, this cult of importance." Megan, your code must suck. You are not special. So you think all the guys that have worked with Linus get a pass because they are men? Jees, you want to be included, but yet if you don't get the ball immediately, you go home. That is weakness. If you need to get coddled at work, it is harder to work with you, you make negative comments, you tend to sue a lot, and embarrass your employers. That would be the definition of an asshole....
It feels weird to defend someone for berating their subordinates but if you look at history, many of the best leaders of innovation weren't nice people to work for. Steve Jobs, Thomas Edison, Elon Musk, and Linus Torvalds have all been known to demand the absolute best from their employees with little thought about how that will impact their feelings. Of course, this doesn't mean that treating your employees poorly is a requirement for being successful but it seems that being blunt about their blunders achieves better results than beating around the bush, even if it leaves some people feeling hurt. That's the reason the military doesn't mollycoddle people and try to solve everything with group hugs. With that said, it may be helpful to evaluate when leaders of innovation can use a "kinder, gentler machine gun hand."
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that. — George Carlin
In corporate America, so much of being part of a business involves learning to suffer fools. In some way I am envious that, for this little small corner, someone gets to run the experiment of what happens if you stop playing the participation trophy game and refuse to sugar coat things to idiots when they do something really wrong.
But, it's one thing to tell people they're wrong and wasting your time bluntly. It's another to rip someone a new asshole, making sure they know you think they're being an idiot, which is very much Torvalds' style. I'm sure most people have met someone who rules by fear rather than leadership. These overly-emotional assholes are often fools themselves, but Linus is the rare form of asshole who happens to be smart and have solid logic behind the emotion. That makes me think twice about it, but doesn't exempt him from criticism for shitty leadership. I'm glad he's acknowledged the err of his ways -- there's a lot of room for him to improve while still offering blunt efficiency.
There is no need to be a dick in order not to talk to other people.
Absolutely! Which is why at the end of my post I said:
That doesn't make them not jerks. But understanding their mindset is important in dealing with them.
My Other Computer Is A Data General Nova III.
If you've ever done any kernel work, you'd know how little Linus touches ANYTHING. He's a figurehead who puts hits boot down on a few issues of disagreement, and he keeps a clockwork process going. The kernel is WAY bigger than Linus now, with thousands of people tinkering on it, a couple dozen sub-maintainers running their own damn shops, and then merely funneling their work to Linus for some kind of cursory, final integration into the next release.
One thing that does need to change is this irritating human predilection to identify and cling to a Dear Leader. Linus Torvalds deserves respect, and his opinion should have weight, but if he's done his job right, then he should be eminently replaceable.
I knew this was a hit piece!
Please go look at who's behind the sadistic COC , yes the feminazi troll who caused Linus to fall on his sword: Coraline Ada Ehmke, , she's a real peach!
- a fully signed up member of the patriarchy.
That was before the age of Codes of Conduct. Now the squeaky wheel not only gets the grease, but gets the presumption of wrongdoing on your part because they were ever squeaking in the first place.
Women are more easily shamed into submission. Why do you think "slut shaming" works, while "cad shaming" doesn't? Testosterone makes men more likely to fight back and even kill in the face of abuse. It's pure biology.
This is also why women in combat and combat-like situations is problematic. Aside from the weaker musculature and bone structure, the aggression from testosterone is often what makes men able and willing to fight hard.
Men have been in charge of the nukes for as long as they've been invented—ever since men themselves invented and built them. So, what could your point possibly be?
Women are literally untested as far as being in charge of the nukes go, and I'm not so sure they'd be better at it—females (of virtually every specious) are known to become emotionally (read: dangerously) aggressive when they feel their "children" are being threatened. The endless complaint that women have about men is that they are too emotionless. Men also tend to be more sentimental, and that leads to fierce loyalty (something needed among warriors and hunting parties), whereas women much less so. You know who I want over the button? Someone who is cold and calculating, but also sentimental and loyal.
And, hot headed? They called it the "cold war" for a reason, jackass.
Your position is ridiculous, and totally unfounded.
I knew this was a hit piece!
Please go look at who's behind the sadistic COC , yes the feminazi troll who caused Linus to fall on his sword: Coraline Ada Ehmke, , she's a real peach!
- a fully signed up member of the patriarchy.
That's quite an accomplishment.
Coraline Ada Ehmke: Most powerful person in tech?
Aside: I knew without looking that her hair would be some gaudy color. I'm not sure why they all do that, but at least they're conveniently marked. It's like they all get to a point where they say "well, my personality has gotten me to the point where I'm clearly unf*ckable, so I might as well try to be as ugly as I possibly can. Maybe I'll at least get some white knights."
"... the Linux Foundation, which supports Linux and other open-source programming projects and paid Torvalds $1.6 million in annual compensation as of 2016."
So he has been paid more than $1 Million per year for two years now. Did they pay him before 2016? Is he the highest paid programmer for open source? Just curious because people tell me all the time to open source my project, but can never tell me how money will magically flow into my bank account if I do this. Who out there is making a good salary working on open source (and does not just work for a company and they have him contribute to open source as part of his job)?
. . . and promote and value excellent contributions, or you can care more about someones' feelz above all else. Linux just chose the latter, initiating a well-known downward spiral of complaining and inevitable technical stagnation that's been seen many times before once these CoCs are introduced into open source projects. At the end of the day, these two things are mutually exclusive, thanks to the everything-offends-me-and-if you-don't-agree-you're-a-misogynist-racist SJW brigade. This is the logical conclusion of weaponizing CoCs which target straight white males from the get-go, particularly those authored by people who hate the idea of meritocracy.
Guess what? The real world doesn't give a *fuck* how you feel, especially in unforgiving disciplines like engineering and tech. Life ain't fair, and 99%+ of the people contributing to Linux don't give two shits about social justice one way or the other. Open source is *not* a social movement! Those people are there to code -- well -- and because they're adults they can handle a rant or two every one in awhile and even a nasty, well-deserved public undressing, and they don't need one of these batshit-crazy CoCs to tell them how to behave. The simple addition of "Don't be an asshole" would've addressed the specific concern without throwing the baby out with the bathwater while giving power to those who don't necessarily deserve it.
so that number will include repetitions and other people's craps, and as such it does not accurately measure the magnitude of the defendant's crime. I believe that the inquisition should be repeated with more scrupulous zeal.
And remember, even though he says that he's sorry, we're still talking about a male here, therefore he's not to be trusted: he could start again uttering mild profanities at any time.
Clearly, there are not enough transvestite and lesbian kernel hackers. This would fix everything...
... What are all your lifetime's accomplishments worth, if you die on the toilet? :(
Every controversial Torvalds post that I have seen has been directed at the quality of the code, not the author. I have never seen misogynistic posts. Yes he swears and gets angry, but it the posts that I have read have been directed at substandard patches.
Can somebody share examples of personal attacks, or misogynistic behavior from Torvalds?
Unless you are willing to stop using most modern technologies as protest. This mean no iphone. I remember reading an article about a woman feel alienated during a morning coffee sit down with the team. Their conversation was about one of the guys setup some home network equipment over the weekends. She felt alienated because they should talk about something more inclusive, which mean something she interested.
Do you make $1.6 million from a "non profit"?
That seems like a throwaway line, but perhaps that is the real story. These non-profits get set-up and then abused. Perhaps it says somewhere on their web site, but how much of their funding goes to overhead and over inflated salaries? (Or perhaps it is payment for the Linux trademark).
Also, there's a difference between doing something bad to someone, and merely not living up to their expectations.
It seems the more success and influence people attain, the more vulnerable they are to others' judgement.
For example, if you see a famous person in public and you ask for their autograph, and they refuse, that can start a chain reaction reputation of them being an "asshole" because they had the audacity to not live up to your expectations.
"Don't break user space!!" comes to mind. I don't *think*, and I'm not a linux dev and have no knowledge other than a few message threads, this has to do with a diversity initiative I think this has to do with abusiveness in general and most likely someone called him out IRL and he read through his history and thought "okay learn to be firm without bitch slapping everyone who crosses me" As most of the core devs are male and gonna guess "white" this just means he intends to be nicer to his immediate team and maybe not so much of an asshole IRL (of which I have no info)
This being /. the focus will be whether Linus has been brainwashed by the "SJWs". On that I don't think trolling is a natural right and if organizations decide to ban it that's their prerogative. You can always call someone a faggot slut while gaming or here on /. if that's what makes you feel stronger.
I was molested by Asia Argento. :(
While I am for good conduct and try to treat everyone well and avoid harsh language, I STRONGLY oppose the code of conduct because it creates a power center that can abused and will be by corrupt people, it gives a few a power to abuse and power corrupts. I would be okay with a Guide of Conduct which is non binding, and non enforceable, but that is as far as I would be comfortable with. Its not because I personally am for using the kinds of language that Linus has in the past. It is because I am not for excluding people from the project over an assortment of words or because they have aspergers or whatever. I find it remarkable how SJWs claim to be for inclusion but it is they who are for exclusion, becuase they are the ones who are demanding people be excluded unless they follow the rules created BY the SJWs about what the SJWs think is "acceptable speech". The SJWs are basically excluding people who have aspergers from the project! Hence: They are NOT inclusive and in fact what they want is this sort of Stalinist type of totalitarianism where saying the wrong word is deadly. I personally believe it is SJWs who are controlling, abusive, totalitarian stalinist bullies. It is they who want to punish people by actions because of a few words! All Linus has ever done is use a few words! this is how things are under Stalinism, you can commit physical harm against people, and thats okay, but you are not allowed any freedom of speech or to use whatever words you want. And yes, I do think that SJWs are headed in the direction of physical violence.
This is probably the end of Linux. The project is becoming focused on politics rather than on technical issues and improvement of the kernel. This kind of self loathing, controversies, false accusations, chaos, by social justice warriors tends to destroy anything it touches.
The rules and the mayhem these people are creating will i fear chase off many of the best programmers. Furthermore, it will become more difficult to reject code that is very poor quality, because it comes from some declared victim group. Thus the kernel could end up becoming cluttered up with crap code because it had to be included due to the fact it came from some declared victim group, rather than being of high quality.
The kernel especially is tricky and dangerous business. Code rejections will be frequent and it is simply the nature of the kernel that its going to be very hard for anyone to get code included into it simply because it is a high risk area and any code that ends up going into it has to be well designed and well implemented. So the standards for the kernel have been and should be higher than nearly any other software project. The problem is an SJW assumes that when their patch is rejected, it has something to do with their gender or whatever. It has nothing to do with that. Its very difficult to get a patch accepted into many areas of the kernel.
One example I would point to is the isue with Matt Damon who had very different ideas about kernel architecture than what was being taken in FreeBSD's SMP implementation. He forked and created DragonflyBSD. Obviously kernel architecture at times has to adopt an architecture and there are many different architectures to choose from. An architecture has to be chosen, which means someones ideas cannot be utilized. Of course Damon didnt immediately start throwing around accusation of discrimination. His ideas were good, the problem was FreeBSD has to make a choice and could not debate forever on the architecture to use. No matter what they did, someones idea had to be rejected in favor of someone elses.
Its impossible to have a software project, with an instistance that EVERYONEs patch has to be accepted. I think that many of these SJWs, not being very well aware of things, tried to put together a code patch for some critical core system in the kernel to try to "prove" that their patch was rejected because of some kind of discrimination when they submit it. They think that when you work on Linux, the way you do that is make pa
You are begging the question with the assumption that in order not to be abusive you have to accept sub-standard code. That makes no sense, it's entirely possible to refuse a patch without calling the submitter a brainless dipshit.
Linus' response to Intel's Spectre fix is a great example. The technical detail is good and it explains clearly what the problem is, and the message is just as definitive without the insults. Patch rejected.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
I never thought of Linus's rants as having gender connotations - he went after anyone who delivered less than stellar work, particularly when it showed laziness or sloppiness - even giants of industry like Intel. Given the billions of people affected by Linux, and the fact that sometimes life is just too short to spend the time and energy sugarcoating things, I always thought that was a fair standard to set.
...how to keep their women in check.
With FreeBSD and now Linux governed by codes of conduct which prioritize feelings over quality, as development on these systems grinds to a halt, perhaps a new project will emerge which includes meritocracy as a core tenet of its charter.
When I first read this I thought it was satire:
https://postmeritocracy.org/
I'm wondering if this is a harbinger of death for the kernel. You don't approve my patches ? You must be a sexist! Okay will allow this one memory leak so you don't hash tag me on twitter. Ever notice how many 'articles' by news sites just report what somebody tweeted? Why investigate when you can just be troll on twitter.
In fairness, there's both. Not that we went about doing it, but it happened. That's what we do with celebrity in modern days.
Elon Musk, anyone? Steve Jobs?
Those are great examples not of cults, but of people who have actually delivered some pretty amazing things, in large part because they also assembled great teams of people who put in years of backbreaking work to make everything happen.
There are people who admire Musk and Jobs and Linus purely as people - but it's important to remember THOSE ARE NOT GENERALLY THE PEOPLE WHO WORK WITH THEM. They are basically groupies, admiring from afar, maybe in a cultish way but completely distinct from the people who actually work with these figures.
It's important to add those context because the people who have worked on Linux are not part of any cult that admire one person, but they like Linux the system and want to help it be even better. That is very distinct from any cult of personality.
Anyone who works with a charismatic technical leader like Jobs or Musk or Linus are not cultists, because of the inherent pragmatism required to deliver technical products.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Must be treated with more care and respect than their male counterparts otherwise, because of their gender, they will be put off?
And here I thought they argued everyone was the same.
Firstly, there is nothing stopping anyone from becoming a software developer. There is no discrimination, no patriarchy, nothing holding people back. I firmly support the concept of equal opportunity and that there should be no discrimination based on physical attributes at all, and the fact is there is none. For a software project, the criteria is technical merit of the code, period. these projects are based on technical goals and technical philosophies, and whether code is accepted is based on technical merits.
There should be no discrimination. However if fewer of one group, or another decides that they want to get involved with a career field, we have to accept that, and we have to accept it has nothing to do with discrimination or anything like that. This is called freedom individual choice and equality of opportunity. It would be an equal injustice to create programs which benefit some people and not others under the false idea that this group is not as prominent in a certain career field under the false pretense it is due to discrimination, when clearly there is and should be no discrimination.
There is a misunderstanding that if source is not contributed to the mainline of a project, that the source cannot be used. This runs contrary to the very nature of open source: if you make a patch, you are free to share the patch and use it yourself, no one can stop you, because you can compile the open source software yourself and use your patch to your hearts content and share it to your hearts content, you do not have to get it accepted by anyone elses project to do that. This makes open source different from proprietary models where you often cannot share your patches and allow others to use them without permission of leaders of a project.
The fact is few people actually get contributed code accepted into the mainline into many of the core areas of the kernel, since it can often be stable areas and are critical areas of code. If you want to make a patch, feel free, put the patch on github. If you are really confident and enthusiastic about it, perhaps submit it.. But also do not scream discrimination and so on if your patch is rejected. So that a contribution is rejected for that area it should not be mistaken for anything other than being due to technical issues and necessity. The kernel is a critical area so the code in there tends to have to be well rationalized, its not like word processing application where you can add a bunch of doodads and weird features. If your patch is not accepted, do not also think it has no value to you or others, you are free to use your patch on your own custom kernel builds and share them with others who want to use them. So a rejected patch is not a patch with no value.
If someone wants to contribute to the kernel with a high chance of mainline acceptance, I would suggest device drivers, since these can be added easily without touching existing areas of the kernel and provided it is quality code, device drivers are welcomed in quite happily. Again you can also do your own patches and even if not mainlined, your free to compile your kernel with your own patches applies and share your patches with others so other people who want to use them can compile their kernel with them. This is what projects like grsecurity have been doing for years.
It is true that there is a statistical fluke that fewer women are involved in the programming. In fact, this is entirely because of individual choice and nothing else.
I also reject the idea that Linus's comments has anything to do with it. To suggest that women are so much more fragile that Linus rants would influence their ambitions is probably one of the most misogynistic things I have heard. No one and nothing is stopping women from getting into software development, or that a different standard is being applied to their contributions. In fact, the statistics are just a result of women making their own decisions about what they want to do and what interests them. Interestingly, its SJWs who most reject the ide
I disagree. One can insist on quality while being civil. It's fair to call out Linus for his lack of civility and how that management style influences the project. Civility is a good thing and is something we very much need more of in this world.
The problem is going from a lack of civility to being hostile toward women. I haven't seen any evidence that Linus was disproportionate in his lack of civility. That seems like a stretch to me, and something that absolutely needs to be challenged.
I see a complaint about how women aren't prolific contributors and it reminds me of another post I recently read. Read the whole thing through before getting angry at the first part. It's still unreasonable, suggesting that departments should stop hiring white men until women and minorities are equally represented. There simply aren't that many women with doctorates who are interested in faculty positions in math departments. A doctorate is generally the baseline qualification for a faculty position. Where does the author propose we get all these women from? Shall we magically create them from thin air?
Origincally, #metoo was about allowing women to come forward about seriously abusive behavior from men. There were some truly disturbing allegations and the men involved deserved their fates. More recently, #metoo has been used to request that men divulge their salaries so women can identify unequal pay. That's a far cry from the original intent.
There have been allegations of abuse by prominent #metoo supporters, that these women were abusive toward men. There have been multiple accusers in some cases and the behaviors mirror those that men have been forced to resign over. If the goal is to eliminate workplace harassment, shouldn't the women face the same outrage and be forced out? That hasn't been the case.
I'm all for civility and eliminating workplace harassment. I believe a lot of people genuinely support these goals. But it seems like there some women who just want to target men and drive them from power. It seems like some are using #metoo as a vehicle to put women in high-ranking positions where they otherwise wouldn't have been hired. I suspect this because of the call for men to divulge their salaries and why there isn't the same outrage over harassment from women.
Four takeaways:
1) There just aren't enough women in some fields who are objectively qualified (e.g., having a doctorate).
2) More civility is a good thing.
3) Power differential leads to harassment, not necessarily gender.
4) Is #metoo really just about eliminating workplace harassment, or are some using it as an opportunity to push men out of high-ranking positions and replace them with women?
You have to hate women to compare their anatomy to Poettering.
If you swear and get angry, you're misogynistic, if you don't agree, you're misogynistic. Women don't swear or get angry and if anyone in the workplace gets angry, all women will quit.
Custom electronics and digital signage for your business: www.evcircuits.com
>Found the guy who's been reported to HR for having 'humourous' homophobic post-it notes on his monitor.
Found the guy who has to attack the messenger in order to ignore the fact that he can't argue against the message, which makes him feel uncomfortable.
Sorry, no, I don't post any "humorous homophobic" notes anywhere, and there is no HR dept at my company, and no issues of the sort, but feel free to illustrate exactly the point I was making by being "offended" that I made a scientifically sound statement you emotionally disagree with.
You illustrate poignantly why the term "asshole" is so highly subjective and ultimately meaningless.
“Great spirits have always encountered opposition from mediocre minds. The mediocre mind is incapable of understanding the man who refuses to bow blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses instead to express his opinions courageously and honestly.”
Albert Einstein
I've recently noticed that systemd lacks Code of Conduct, and there is an obvious white male dominance in top contributers. That must be fixed ASAP for sure!
So? Linux has likely become successful exactly because of the behaviour of the developers.
You misspelled "in spite of." There's no evidence to support your claim.
You don't need to. This kind of feminist considers a little boy to be a defective girl, and a grown man to be an "incomplete woman".
There's no discussion or debate allowed. Just ignore them, they will go away.
This is the result of linux going mainstream, and I embrace that. It's now so serious, so large that multiple people are paid to work on the kernel. Kernel development is a proper full time job and a career choice. And at present, the workplace sucks.
So, just like in real workplaces, there is now policies and HR to ensure everyone plays nice together and gets the job done.
... how all the anti-SJW types in this post have completely missed that Python is explicitly mentioned in the article by way of contrast, and as a successful one at that.
Or that engineers at the IEEE have also determined that codes of conduct have been adopted by hundreds of thousands of open-source projects, successfully:
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7884606/
But let's all continue thinking the fault is with the ones putting the codes in place, sure.
enjoy your 3 seconds of "importance"
Boys don't get pushed to learn computers; rather, boys push their parents to buy them computers so that they can tinker.
You said it yourself: You're sorry that you chose men, because... hey... like... it'd be nice to have some vaginas around? Like what?
Also, clearly, you're not saying that women should rise to the discourse of their male counterparts; rather, you're implying that men should lower themselves to something meek and mild. No.
I like (many) men and dislike some men. I don't dislike men in general.
I like meritocracy, but it's not an ultimate good. Being a decent person figures in there too.
Lol, guess what Einstein? Your assertion is even more baseless.
Linus and Linux has a proven, successful track-record supporting the claim. You've got nothing based in reality. At best you could claim to hope your conjecture would come to pass if things were different, which they aren't.
It went "sell that fucking stupid krypto kurrency shit, and vote democratic in next election!"
I don't think Torvalds was misogynistic, nor do I think anyone is claiming he was. I think they were just claiming he was too abrasive for a professional working environment. The word "misogyny" or anything derived from it doesn't appear anywhere in the New Yorker article.
For whatever reason, the New Yorker articles quotes a couple of women, but there have been plenty of guys who've gotten fed up with Linus's abrasiveness and moved on.
How they had the foresight to write the story before the events occurred.
I don't think Torvalds was misogynistic, nor do I think anyone is claiming he was. I think they were just claiming he was too abrasive for a professional working environment. The word "misogyny" or anything derived from it doesn't appear anywhere in the New Yorker article.
Just wait. It'll come.
For whatever reason, the New Yorker articles quotes a couple of women, but there have been plenty of guys who've gotten fed up with Linus's abrasiveness and moved on.
I think the "for whatever reason" is a bit loaded there... The "whatever reason" is pretty clear in the larger cultural environment.
It's probably worth noting that there's already pressure forming to have Ted Ts'o removed from the TAB on "meta" grounds (Can't make a report while this person is on the Board), and explicitly called out as "someone who didn't sign off on the patch", from a person shouted out to by the reporter of the NY article on the announcement.
Hire a Linux system administrator, systems engineer,
https://twitter.com/_sagesharp...
The new Code of Conduct explicitly says discrimination and harassment on the basis of sex or gender is not allowed. One Linux Foundation Technical Advisory Board member who did not sign off on the patch is Ted Tso, who is a rape apologist:
Begun the SJW war has.
There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't.
"I disagree. One can insist on quality while being civil. It's fair to call out Linus for his lack of civility and how that management style influences the project. Civility is a good thing and is something we very much need more of in this world."
That's beyond naÃve. People that are allowed to fail over and over and over without consequences do just that: fail over and over and over. I could recount half a dozen projects I've been on where that's true. In fact, I'm on one right now that leaked hundreds of SSNs because every single code review for a year was roundfiled and the geniuses in operations decided to truncate everybody's Outlook mailbox to 2 days because they won't even look at what the H1Bs are doing. I don't even like Linus or use Linux but fuck every last one of you dickless weasels that can't get your act together or take a little criticism.
Since they're already going after core developers since the CoC was put into place, the belief that they're going to put substandard code into place is no longer theoretical, it's pretty much a given.
Om, nomnomnom...
I'm sorry, from here Linux seems like a very very nice guy. Yeah, he gets super-pissed with people who waste his time. Of course he does. He's the effing kernel lead and if you didn't to your homework and keep on harping about the same bullshit although you should know better, especially if you're a paid engineer at a large famous and powerful IC company.
Yes, he uses explitives where he shouldn't and it makes him sound immature and childish and way less sophisticated than it should. Which is why he wants to improve. Kudos to him for that.
I'd take Linus as a teamlead over most others anytime. And if he were mad at me if look very carefully into what I delivered that made him made before I get back to him or simply blow it off as Linus being Linus.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
It is clear that Women and Men cannot meaningfully work together. There needs to be separate workplaces, schools, drinking fountains, restaurants, bars, clubs, gyms, roads, buses, trains, planes, and automobiles for men and women. Men can go off in a corner by themselves and work until all their endeavors fail and burn as they inevitably will. Women can have a work-place and other facilities free of toxic masculinity and mysogenistic, testosterone fueled hostility where they can become the great inventors, scientists, teachers, craftswomen, (basically, any interesting and fulfilling job, but, nothing like garbage-men) that they all deserve to be and the world will be a nirvana of greatness instead of the shithole that men have stumbled into over the eons. Yay for the future! Purge the men from society!
Maybe it is a chance for a new OS to emerge. Maybe one of the BSDs could fill in for Linux, or one of the newish projects could gain momentum, like Fuchsia for example..?
Um, what percentage of coders are woman? Unless that number is considerably more than 10% then throwing out a stat specific to a particular project is just fucking stupid as Linus would say.
Tearing out the IPX protocol code when hundreds of thousands or millions of lines of garbage are being added attests to that.
It is really time for the various kernel subsystems to be disentangled and the driver code made to benefit every other open source kernel around as the core of linux itself dies a much deserved death as it has become bloated and insecure thanks to years of too many fingers in the pot.
Also, the NY is definitely highlighting this. Misogyny is the implication:
Linus Torvalds's decision to step aside came after we asked him a series of questions about his conduct for a story on complaints about his abusive behavior discouraging women from working as Linux-kernel programmers
https://twitter.com/NewYorker/status/1042793559601164290
Hire a Linux system administrator, systems engineer,
Santo, subito!
Sent as ripples into the electromagnetic field. No single photon has been harmed in the process.
I've read numerous rants from Linus and every single one of them has been on point and generally cogent and pragmatic. It's always about bad code / patches, or occasionally letting off steam because the penny didn't drop after a previous email. It's never about a contributor's sex, sexuality, ethnicity, or anything else. Purely about good code vs bad code, good practice vs bad.
I honestly don't understand why he needs to apologize for anything, or the way he responds. It is precisely because he runs a tight ship and everyone knows the rules that the kernel gets anything done.
Honestly, I can relate to this on a personal level and many other intelligent people I know struggle to some degree with the same issue. It's not that any of us wants to be an asshole but emotions, least of all those of other people, simply aren't a real part of our thought processes. It takes a concerted effort to consider how the way in which details are presented may affect others which doesn't come naturally to some more analytical minds. I've struggled, for most of my life, with coming across like an asshole because I don't consider peoples' feelings. Props to him for recognizing it and trying to do something about.
I think there's actually a point to Linus's more colourful explosions. Remember that most of the people working under him aren't employed by him. He can "fire" people by refusing to pull from them, but that's a pretty nuclear option. Other than that, harsh language is pretty much all he's got.
And when someone's paycheque boss asks them to do something Linus doesn't like (most common: getting a new product working with a fast ugly hack rather than a cleaner, more general solution), it can be useful to that person to be able to place a still-smoking e-mail on their boss's desk and say "see, I told you that wouldn't fly."
Definitely follow the links in the article to see the context. The explosions aren't just bullying; they're all surrounded by quite detailed explanations of why he's angry. "Please just kill yourself now" is the culmination of a post titled "Venting" and subtitled "you might want to avert your eyes now." It wasn't directed at a named individual, or necessarily anyone at all. It was "if you...think that my kids need to have the root password to access some wireless network, or to be able to print out a paper, or to change the date-and-time settings, please just kill yourself now. The world will be a better place."
He also doesn't bite the newbies. It's people he expects to know better he yells at. And he's not a hypocrite who can give but not take. I'm careful calling Linus wrong because he's usually right, but on the rare occasions I catch him out I've enjoyed abusing him right back.
This strong language is not itself sexist. Nor does it appear to be used in a sexist manner. But it ends up interacting badly with a broader societal double standard and produces a sexist effect.
The underlying problem is that women are judged far more harshly for assertiveness than men are. A man can be a complete bastard and still respected or even admired. There are plenty of Frank Underwoods doing quite well in the world.
(Former Canadian prime minister Pierre Trudeau comes to mind. "arrogant prick" is a pretty accurate summary of his personality. He was famously unsullied by humility. Fortunately, he was as smart as he through he was.)
But this is a real ongoing problem for female politicians. Remember "Nasty Woman"? Women walk a tightrope between being wallflowers and bitches.
Now, Linux development is done in public. All your interactions are immortalized in public mailing list archives.
A male developer can tell Linus to get his head out of his ass and not hurt his current or future job prospects in the least. As the article quotes Val Aurora as noting, a woman doing exactly the same thing experiences a lot of retaliation. People may not say so directly, but a woman acting like that is judged as an intolerable co-worker long before a man is.
That societal double standard is not itself Linus's fault, but it means that a rough-and-tumble development culture quite effectively excludes women.
Steve Jobs, visionary genius with incredibly high standards
Just so we're all on the same page ...
I like offending people, because I think people who get offended should be offended - Linus Torvalds
Your line of reasoning is part of why this problem exists. Stop conflating civility with continually allowing failure. It's just not helpful.
I've taught a few lecture hall classes at the college level with a lot of non-majors. As an intro-level class for students who often don't have much scientific background, the degree of difficulty is low. Regardless, there are always a significant number of students who don't put in enough effort or simply don't try at all. In some cases it means prioritizing extracurricular activities over doing their work in a timely manner. For others, they just stop coming to class.
When those students do poorly and make excuses, I don't feel bad telling them they need to improve their effort and the people in charge of extracurricular activities also expect them to prioritize academics first. In the case of students who don't come to class and want to know why their grade is low, I tell them that they need to come to class or consider dropping to preserve their GPA. I use clickers as an educational tool, but it also tells me who is attending and who isn't. Their grades reflect the quality of the work they do, and I always explain my reasoning for taking points off.
All of this can be done in a civil manner. I don't have to yell at students, use foul language, or make personal attacks in order to give them a blunt assessment of their performance. None of that is necessary. It's generally not even helpful. If I verbally attack the students, they're going to become defensive and unwilling to accept my criticism. They may even blame me for their grade rather than accepting responsibility. They will become entrenched in their harmful behaviors.
It's much better to express sincere disappointment because I know they're capable of doing better and that their grade predicament is the result of their poor decisions. It doesn't always work, but it stands a better chance of being effective. I want them to be disappointed in their own behavior rather than mad at me. That's not because I don't want to hurt their feelings but because I want them to accept responsibility and change.
This applies to a lot of other situations, not just academic instruction. Civility doesn't mean tolerating poor performance. Conflating those things like you're doing is counterproductive.
Hey! Would you happen to be trump's penis? Stormy Daniels told us last night that his penis looks like a Goomba. You say a lot of stupid shit on this site, which trump's penis would do, so how do you like short Italian men, like Giuliani, jumping on your head?
Quite the hatchet-job. Full of half-truths, strong gender bias, and personal attacks aimed at Linus. Linus has always been very gender neutral, contrary to the article's obvious agenda.
I know I've made comments in this thread as anon, and they're not even showing at -1. I'm not saying they're being deleted, I'm just curious if anyone else is experiencing this?
Thanks.
Disregard. It was my mistake.
You don't get out much do you.
In my brief career most of the managers I have had are women. I don't think that it is too much to say that all of them could code circles around anything you have ever done. The next to last place I worked, the women software engineers were the go-to and best coders there.
Get out of Mom's basement.
You and all the other haters are just pissed you can't be douche nozzles anymore. You're being knocked off your position of power and you're desperately grasping at whatever it takes to retain your dominance. Furthermore, you're the fearful type (no matter how badass you act) so you fear your discrimination and hatred will be revisited upon you ten-fold. Maybe it will, maybe it won't, but you know you've been cruel so that ten-fold number is gonna be pretty bad. I imagine a similar thing happened back in the day when all those rich fuckers were told they didn't get to have slaves anymore. Had a war about it and everything. You were wrong. You lost. GET OVER IT.
Like the NFL, for example. I get the impression that it makes money for people.
Sorry, I just realized that's a 501c6. FTFM.
And a lot of vaseline. The poor bastard's going to need them.
Linus finally got laid. About time.
Just pick any arbitrary open source project and usually there is at least 60% women in the core team. Yeah.
SJWs go home
The three emails cited are not bad behaviour in any way shape or form. They use harsh language and to the point. Certainly not examples of any abusive use of language though.
The paper is trying to smear Torvalds and I would'nt be surprised if they set him up to some trap. We'll know soon.
A link to known conspiracy site Kotaku in Action, where you got the pizzagate thing from as I recall, which itself links to a couple of tweets hat don't actually show anything beyond some more unfounded claims without any evidence.
Up to your usual rigorous standards I see.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
There are very few men among the most prolific contributors. That's why they're "the most prolific". It's a select, small number of people. And as there's greater variance in male intelligence and contentiousness, you'd expect the "most prolific" people to be male. In other words this "New Yorker" piece is a load of anti-biology politically correct bollocks.
You can be an adequate coder without being aggressively antisocial, but what Linus did requires something much more than that.
To be a genius, you need to be so far out of the mainstream that the mainstream will not cooperate with you. You'd have to be a saint not to lash out in anger from time to time.
We're talking about excellent, not just good. To achieve excellence, you absolutely have to put the mediocrities in their place or they will mess everything up.
So, actual links in a condensed form of what people have been doing is a conspiracy? No, don't think we're a conspiracy. Are we at the point with people who have a similar mindset are using something in order to coerce others? Yep we are.
where you got the pizzagate thing from as I recall,
That's funny, I seem to remember the only thing I said on that was there was a lot of similarities between what was shown, and things I've seen on my own. Never mind that you live in the UK, where there's been literal decades of coverups by your government, police, and media of high profile child prostitution rings, and high profile public and government figures or anything. I'm sure that's all a conspiracy theory too.
which itself links to a couple of tweets hat don't actually show anything beyond some more unfounded claims without any evidence
So a primary link, which shows the primary posts of the persons trying to coerce other people is unfounded and without evidence. Brilliant reasoning.
Up to your usual rigorous standards I see.
Well it's sure better then your ability to make a stand on a law that's opposite of what said law actually states.
Remember when I jammed your face into the posts, leaks, and other associated information of anti-ggers being the source of their own harassment, and so on? I sure do. And your only response was "it's fake" and when someone who was in the depth of it all, came out saying "it's actually true" you ran away? Good times.
Om, nomnomnom...
Democrats doing what democrats do - destroy everything. Church, society, even football. This is just another SJW bullshit move.
'Nuff said.
But that is true, the world would be better place without agent provocateurs like you Ami. Not that I suggest anything, seems that your types just get born statistically and replenish any loss. And of course, about ninety percent of the populace are straight dumbos. They form the backbone of society, but unable to produce anything like Linux.
Special people like Linus should be protected from the mobs. Even tolerating ten non talented jerks for a chance that one of them turned out to be of Linus is better than enforcing the corporate niceness which is for the drones.
That's why we have universities with their academic freedoms, and FOSS model was nothing different from academia actually. Now it is being destroyed which will do Western societies no good.
And you, Ami, being a deviant from the other side of the spectrum than Linux, will reap no benefits from the general reduction of freedoms and individuality. Informants and provocaterous are expendable.
You're not playing in the "big leagues" if you can't handle criticism of your code - I agree with you there. But you're also not playing in the "big leagues" if you're throwing around junior-high insults and pretending that it makes your code better. 98% of the time, Linus criticizes code in a way that raises standards and attracts high quality code and high quality contributors. 2% of the time, Linus throws around juvenile personal insults that make those high-quality contributors wonder if it's worth it. Don't make the mistake of giving credit for the high quality of Linux to the personal insults.
So? Linux has likely become successful exactly because of the behaviour of the developers.
I'd suggest that Linux has become successful because 98% of the time, Linus criticizes the code, and that attracts high-quality code and high-quality contributors. 2% of the time, he uses juvenile personal insults that make high-quality contributors wonder if it's worth it. Don't give credit for the high quality of Linux to the insults. Give credit where it's due, to Linus' incisive code criticism.
My post was refused with the message:
"Filter error: Lameness filter encountered"
I do believe it to be a "filter error" or perhaps, more accurately, a "site error".
Gratuitous licenses are revocable by the grantor.
Each of the gratis linux kernel contributors can revoke their license grant (to the project or anyone else who did not pay consideration) at their pleasure.
If and when they are ejected from kernel work, when the gift horse is stared in the mouth for not being a feminist, or for not opposing child-marraige-of-girls-to-men (allowed by YHWH in Devarim chapter 22 verse 28 (na'ar), also allowed by Sunni Islam, along with other good pro-male religions) with sufficient vigor, or for not supporting other aspects of the anglo-american religion... they should do so.
Bruce Perens: You stated you don't "need" stick-in-the-mud contributors anymore. Yes you do: old stick-in-the-mud contributors who contributed to projects without copyright-assignment can revoke their grant at will and put into question the legality of said projects if they wish to.
You seem somewhat ignorant of US law...
>Bruce Perens wrote:
>I am 60 and I *can* deal with this. I have many things to get done, and
>can't afford to have the stick-in-the-mud guys on a project any longer. If
>you want to paint yourself into a corner, that is your right, but IMO it's
>a poor choice.
It is disgusting that you, Bruce Perens, express a will to treat gratis contributors as if they were employees or servants of yourself: that the moment you imagine that you do not rely on them anymore, you assert a will to eject them because they do not follow your belief system. They can and they should strike back against you in such a case, and against all who attempt to impose upon them.
>Martin Steigerwald wrote:
>Luckily on LKML he or she got almost no attention.
Sometimes silence is assent. You will notice that no one has refuted the issue I have raised in any detail. Why do you think Moglen has had the FSF collecting copyright assignments for decades? Did you really think the publicly released story was all there was to it?
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