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Has the Love Affair With Driving Gotten Stuck in Traffic? (washingtonpost.com)
America's love affair with the automobile and those dreams of roaring off on open highways are on the wane as the nation grapples with too much stop-and-go traffic and too many hours spent behind the steering wheel. From a report: Those findings are contained in a report to be released Thursday by Arity, a technology research spinoff created two years ago by Allstate Insurance. Arity underscored the growing disillusionment by using an illustration: Americans, on average, spend more time in their cars -- mostly driving to and from work -- than they receive in vacation time. Arity researchers said most people average 321 hours in the car each year and get 120 hours of vacation [Editor's note: the link may be paywalled; an alternative source was not immediately available.]. "To me, that really crystallizes the issue," said Lisa Jillson, who leads Arity's research and design department. "I get a certain amount of vacation time, and I spend almost three times that in my car just getting back and forth to a job."
Her research showed a notable difference between millennials and baby boomers. Unhappiness with driving becomes more pronounced, with 59 percent of millennials saying they'd "rather spend time doing more productive tasks than driving," while only 45 percent of baby boomers make that same statement.
Her research showed a notable difference between millennials and baby boomers. Unhappiness with driving becomes more pronounced, with 59 percent of millennials saying they'd "rather spend time doing more productive tasks than driving," while only 45 percent of baby boomers make that same statement.
I've been over driving for years. I commute about an hour each way, wasting 2 hours of my life each day, or 2/16 of my woke life. I'm actively trying to move to a place where I don't have to waste hours sitting in a car every day.
I don't respond to AC's.
It doesn't help that there's now a stop light or roundabout at nearly every intersection that gets more than 20 cars a day. For example, the city I live in put a stop light IN THE MIDDLE OF A STEEP HILL because there's a small factory on the, otherwise completely empty, side street. So even though there's only cross traffic for about an hour each day, the light continues all day. I'm just waiting for this winter when someone goes sliding through the light and T-bones someone. I hope both parties sue the city.
Sounds pretty damn easy for you. But when advancement can only be had by changing jobs every 2-3 years, trying to move with every job means paying rent forever. Unless you think anyone can work anywhere they want? Otherwise most of us schmucks have to go to where the job is.
But commuting sucks. It just becomes a routine you have to do like brushing your teeth and taking out the garbage. Heavy traffic of course just makes it worse. Sadly, as good as public transport can be for a lot of reasons, it's not much fun either and in many cases won't save you any time.
I now live 10 minutes walk to the office and it still kind of sucks when it's very cold and/or rainy. On those days I can just stay in and work from home though :D
It takes about 15 minutes to work (I have to drop off the kid) and 10 minutes home, so about 25 minutes per day * days per week * 50 weeks ~ 105hours. So not quite.
On the plus side my car is nearly 50 years old, stick shift, and fun as heck to drive. So the drive can be by the seat of your pants which can be pretty enjoyable. There is about a three mile stretch where the road curves back and forth several times that most people don't like to take. That stretch alone is a joy to take at 10-15 mph above the speed limit. On the way home there is about a 1 1/2 mile street that is straight as an arrow with no lights or stop signs and very little traffic, ie pure fun to rake the shifter through.
Of course YMMV.
Easy to say when single.
When I was a bachelor, I would rent within walking distance of my employer, even though it was in the suburbs and it involved me cutting through some business parks. Then I got married and my wife got a job. Then my employer moved. Then we had kids and had to think about school districts. We moved to a place that is a 5 mile commute (in heavy traffic) for her and a 10 mile commute for me (in light to moderate traffic) with a decent school system. But either of us could get fired tomorrow and our commute could change, and we wouldn't be able to move without uprooting our kids and selling our home.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Are they only polling places like D.C, L.A. , Houston?
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Sadly, as good as public transport can be for a lot of reasons, it's not much fun either and in many cases won't save you any time.
I can't do anything else while I'm driving. I can do all sorts of stuff (work, relax, etc.) while on public transit.
I don't respond to AC's.
I didn't have one in high school. By the time I did it was an expensive nuisance and constant source of stress mostly used to get me to work.
That said if I had one in high school (along with the increase in social standing that comes with one) my opinion would probably be very different.
Meanwhile I drive home against traffic each day and it's terrifying to me how bad things are. Traffic will be backed up several miles on surface streets. Freeways are at least a half mile. Meanwhile all those cars are spewing toxins and we're wasting gas and getting into wars we can't afford to feed our hungry engines.
Why do we live like this?
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I want to live where you live. In every city that I know of, they designed the roadways for less than half of the current traffic load. Almost everywhere, there is a traffic jam twice a day.
Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
we spent a few hundred on a sensor that only trips if a car pulls up. Your city's being cheap. The sensors work and work well. They're not even that expensive.
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Now you're talking! ;)
Will $CURRENT_YEAR be the year of the Linux Desktop?
I've lived close to and far from work over the years. Most recently I moved from a 15 minute in town commute to a 45 minute commute. I'm finding that the 45 minute commute is pretty productive. I think about work and home things, it lets me wind down and get ideas. I'll either make a spoken note or just remember what I want to do to make improvements to whatever I'm doing be it home or work related. I almost never have any music, pod cast, or books on tape going as a quiet commute is my desire. The short commute went from busy at work to busy at home with no downtime or quiet time. Perhaps taking 30 minutes or an hour at home after work to just chill would replace the commute but it's hard to make the time where commuting is unavoidable.
When I go on vacation, I ride my motorcycle and within a couple of days, all my work cares have fallen away behind me. It's the positive aspect of heading out on vacation.
And I suspect I'm a boomer of some sort, tail end at least (61 years old).
[John]
Shit better not happen!
Well, this is nothing new. People have had to uproot and move to jobs for most modern days.
And heck, in the 60's - 90's...it was a bit more difficult as that no internet, you had to manually let everyone know where you'd moved, etc.
And there was no such thing as working remotely, which is more and more becoming an option today.
But really, no one in several decades assumed they were entitled to stay at one job, in one city, and not have to move a bit to where better jobs were. My family did it as I was growing up, as that Dad moved us when better jobs were to be had for the family. This was for Electrical Engineering.....but yes, we started renting, but then bought houses, and part of life was selling house and moving to a new town.
So, this isn't something new....families have done this for longer than I have lived.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
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I'd tell you but then you'd want to move here which would just make our traffic load worse. Sorry.
What does this have to do with the rebuttal he made to the AC parent? Sure, people have had to deal with jobs moving and it makes living close to your job problematic, and yet having dual careers in the household to cater to makes it essentially impossible.
This is where autonomous cars will help. When you can get work done as part of your commute it becomes less of a hassle. This is why rich people have drivers, so they can be conducting business and the driver has no incentive to get worked up about traffic as it's their job and they get paid no matter what traffic is doing.
While is may be practical for some people to pick up a cheap rental near work to live and work in during the week, it's not a practical solution for people who have families. And it requires that the time you save can be put towards real actual additional paid work to make it financially worth it.
Public transit exacerbates the problem by extending the time wasted commuting while providing no ability to get work done even though someone else is driving.
The problem of the commute can be solved two ways: make it shorter or make it more productive.
Business class Waymo with Wifi and enough room to comfortably sit with a laptop. That would be useful. Unless you tend to get motion sickness.
Telsa is working on making the commute shorter. Which is probably the most practical solution for most people. The question is whether it will either be affordable or take enough richer people off the road to make the freeways not terrible for the rest.
Work Safe Porn
on their hands? I mean, worst case their kids are grown up and the work. A lot are just plain retired. Of course they don't mind spending time in a car the way a Millennial working two jobs and taking care of the kids does.
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The problem is city design as well as the concept of a work day is 9 to 5.
We cluster so much similar types of work in a concentrated location and dictate that it all starts and ends at the same hour.
Convince your employer to start an hour later or earlier and you will see a major difference.
DRM? No thanks, I'll just get it somewhere else...
Why is it impossible?
Basically, you move with the person that makes the most money, right?
It's the golden rule: "He who makes the most gold, makes the rules".
But seriously, whichever one makes the most $$....if they have to move, then you do.
Is it easy? No.
Is it convenient? No.
Is it doable...and pretty much required in modern life to advance? Yes.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
... because I'm not. I've been commuting by bicycle for the last 20 years. It's like being on vacation while getting to work -- the best part of my day! It's a bit over 20 miles (33 km) each way so I'm on the bike for about two hours/day. What's great is that I get two hours of workout in per day for essentially one hour of time (it takes 30 minutes to drive each way). The thing most motorist don't understand is riding a bike is often faster than driving. On surface streets, it's almost always faster to ride a bike during commute hours. On average, cars go about 13 mph (21 kph) in cities, which is a very easy speed to ride a bike. Yeah, I live in California, but I've commuted year 'round in Michigan too, so there...
It was 1.5 hours from my house to the shop in Calle Ocho. Through the worst of miami. 2nd gear crawling most of the time.
Then I got a better job, closer to home. I actually get to enjoy my car now. I floor the first 3 gears then lazy-shift up the last 3. Nice, flowing traffic -- fast, mind you, but easy.
There's those who love to drive, and those who hate driving and hate cars. Guess who there's more of. Yeah. This is why cars are maybe 5% of the cars out there, and the rest are lumbering land-cows called "SUVs" and "Crossovers."
And of those 5%, maybe 1% of those are sports car. What the hell happened? What's with all the land cows?
Leave the driving to those who love cars. The rest of you, for all that is holy, get your self-driving podmobiles already!
The "Civilized World" jumped the shark ca. 1973.
My dad is past retirement age but still commutes to work in Toronto every working day; His commute is just under 3 hours one way every day. I've told him many times that if I had to do that I would just blow my head off and call it a life, but not using those exact words.
Actually the 60's -90's you got one job and stayed with it until you died.
You might only work for 2-3 companies your entire life.
Millineials basically have to get a new job every 5 years with a new employer as employers do not give out wage increases otherwise. Why do you think wage growth has basically been negative for the last 15 years compared to inflation?
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
I"ve live all over the south east and south central areas of the US mostly, but also in other states, some out west.
Sure, there is rush hour, but I've never been stuck in traffic for an hour or more as a normal thing.
Most of my commutes have been in the 10-15min range each way avg.
I did have one job, that had a 35min commute each way, but that was not due to traffic, but the job was a good one that was a bit farther than usual to where I lived, but it wasn't too bad, I'd just throw on some tunes and jam down the road...I bought my first corvette for that one, so I got there and back pretty fast.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
America has written it's laws like everyone is born with a SUV strapped to their ass.
If you make our transportation systems safer for pedestrians, bicyclists, motorcyclists, and scooterists, it will cut down traffic, and reduce our dependence on oil.
Scooters, motorcycles, and mopeds help reduce traffic in other countries.
(Some scooters get 92MPG, many motorcycles get 64MPG.)
https://www.youtube.com/c/BrendaEM
There's a few big differences between then and now:
1. Both parents work now, so it's much harder to find a place that's close for both
2. People change jobs every 2-3 years, instead of staying at one company for decades
3. Houses have become much more expensive, together with the associated transaction costs
In the '60s, there was usually just one job to consider per family. In the '70s, there was one primary job and a secondary job that was fairly easy to replace or even do without for a bit. That made things a lot easier logistically.
I grew up through those years, and you are wrong...at least from my experience, and all of my friends i grew up with along the way (and along the moves).
We didn't really settle in one place for a LONG period of time, till I was starting about 6th grade or so.
I myself moved for schooling and jobs for most of my younger years...till about age 35 or so....
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
The average American drives 13,476 miles each year. If they're spending 321 hours in their car each year, that works out to an average speed of 42 MPH. That's hardly bogged down by traffic, especially if you factor in time spent on local streets. I average about 20-25 MPH on local roads (after accounting for red lights). So if you figure half my commute time is on local streets, half on the highway, then I'm averaging 61.5 MPH on the highway.
The "problem" isn't traffic. It's suburbanization and high housing prices at workplace locations, forcing people to live much further from their workplace than in the past. Public transportation is great for countering excessive traffic, but less effective at countering long commute distances (the bus or train is stuck between having few stops so less time is wasted waiting, and maintaining frequent stops so you don't have to walk far when you get to your destination car-less).
It's also worth pointing out that the average (mean) for open-ended quantities (like time spent in a car per year - capped at 8760 hours) is skewed towards the high end by the few extreme persons. If 9 people in a room make $50k/yr, and the 10th person makes $5 million/yr, the average income for everyone in the room is $545k/yr. So the median number of hours spent in the car will be lower (probably a lot lower) than 321 hours.
Lower your expectations: buy used cars, don't renovate your damn kitchen and toilet every 2.5 years to keep up with the Joneses (20 or 30 year old appliances work fine), don't switch phones/laptops/iPads every year, buy a small house with a small yard, or better yet, a 2-family where some other schmoe pays your mortgage.
Then you won't need a second income or to job-jump to "advance" every 2-3 years.
they designed the roadways for less than half of the current traffic load
Then the city is full. And they need to stop issuing building permits. If it was an overtaxed water or sewer system, it's not unheard of for cities to declare moratoriums on new construction. Why not with roads?
Have gnu, will travel.
Driving is the means, not the end. The love affair was not with the automobile, but with getting out and exploring new places.
It has been shown that it's nearly impossible to build enough roadway in high traffic areas because as soon as you add more roadway it gets filled to capacity *immediately*.
You do know there's a whole generation in between Boomers and Millennials right? A lot of Boomers are retired now, so if this research is being done on commuters, the people you are calling "Baby Boomers" are probably Generation X.
Support Right To Repair Legislation.
"Our study shows average_vacation_time average_commute_time".
How is this significant? Does anyone commuting think like this? I just view commuting as part of a typical work day.
It should come to no ones surprise that my vacation_days my_work_days.
ugh, Why does a LESS_THAN symbol disappear?
"Our study shows average_vacation_time IS_LESS_THAN average_commute_time".
How is this significant? Does anyone commuting think like this? I just view commuting as part of a typical work day.
It should come to no ones surprise that my vacation_days IS_LESS_THAN my_work_days.
120 hours of PTO (can't really call it vacation, since what used to be 5 sick/personal days are now lumped into it, so really about 80 hours of vacation). Plus 80 holidays.
Yes, my life sucks....
What the fuck are you arguing against? Somebody said move to your job rather than care about the improvement of roads and transportation. The other person said that's not a practical solution for huge swaths of people when there's two jobs and kids. Your point is, apparently, "Yes, you're right, it's not a solution, stop whining about it."
Like somebody saying, "Hey this could make things better" and your answer is "My perceived experience with this inconvenience means you shouldn't be interested in whether the conditions dealing with it deteriorate or improve." You're a dumbfuck, cayenne8. Every fucking day.
"Old man yells at systemd"
Okay, yeah, we're in cars. You know what we're also doing? Getting utility out of those cars by being able to live further away from dense cities while commuting into them for our high-paying jobs.
People wouldn't sit in traffic unless they had to? No shit. People also tend to work in sweatshops because they're _better paying than every other job_ in their town.
I agree that it's a good amount of perspective that we get less vacation than we drive to work in terms of hours to convoy how long we really spend getting to our jobs and not getting paid for it. But that's... basically it. It's just a "huh... that's interesting." trivia point like "We drink X gallons of soda every year."
Yeah, we should probably drink less soda. And it would be NICE if we didn't have to drive as far. It'd also be NICE if we weren't filling our lungs with pollution (from those same cars!) that causes asthma and allergies and learning disorders in our children. Except this last point actually means something. People are literally dying from our car's gas engines. And that's way more important than, "Oh no, I have to sit in a car and listen to music or podcasts in traffic while I go to my job that pays 10x more than 99% of the country"
My first computer science job paid $25,000 a year. After three years I made $32,000. I was responsible for data migrations for entire companies involving C#, SQL, and mobile applications. 32. fucking. grand. before taxes.
If I moved to Seattle, I'd be making >100,000 a year easily for the same job. I have friends there and they assured me of this--trying to get me to move and join their companies.
You think I wouldn't mind sitting in a car for an hour a day to Joe Rogan podcasts while I make literally FOUR TIMES as much money? (Or more.)
Now, why haven't I done that? Well, I got proper fucked by genetics and I'm currently staying near family because a strong support system has more UTILITY to me than a high pay check at the moment. But that's the key. People sit in traffic (and work) in large cities because the highest paying jobs (and ability to jump from one job to another instead of "the one big company in my town") are worth the minor inconvenience of sitting in a car. Even if you hate sitting in a car, if you treated your time in the car as a "billable hour" that you weren't getting paid for, you're still making far more money than 90% of the country and more money per hour sitting in your car in traffic than semi-truck drivers are making doing it for a living.
In otherwords, nothing to see here, move along.
I've always loved a good cross-country drive, and I still do. But to drive to work every day? No thanks. I get to work from home, so I don't have to deal with rush-hour local traffic (Redmond/Seattle) thank $DEITY - If I had to commute to the office every day, I'd have to kill somebody.
I'm wondering where all these people live where there is SO much traffic every day?
Are they only polling places like D.C, L.A. , Houston?
It can take me anywhere from 1-2 hours to get home here in the ATL. Work southside, live very far northside (only good place with halfway decent housing costs and even those have skyrocketed the past 3 years). Can't move because wife works northside. Of course, the main problem here is they have 2 major highways merge through the city. If they would split the 2 highways it would reduce travel time for me because most downtown traffic is for the other main highway.
The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for it to be pitted against a slightly greater evil
...and we wouldn't be able to move without uprooting our kids and selling our home.
My family did it as I was growing up, as that Dad moved us when better jobs were to be had for the family. (...) So, this isn't something new....families have done this for longer than I have lived.
A few kids do. I'm trying to think back and from 1st through 9th grade, out of ~50 pupils in two classes I'm struggling to remember even a handful that moved out of or into the school district, I remember two and it certainly wasn't every year. Maybe it's a cultural thing or that my neighborhood was exceptionally stable but my impression is that a lot of people are looking to move when they have toddlers, but then there's a decade's solid freeze until high school. In the short term I know people who drove 1-2 hour commutes each way, every day in order to stay put until they can find work closer to home. There are certainly those who'd drag their family along for even a modest raise or career advancement, but my impression is that for most it either takes a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity or they've lost their main income and fate more or less forces their hand.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Everyone can survive without keeping up with the neighbors. It's kind of like needing water, pooping, or pissing,
I love driving, and I consider it a hobby as well as essential transportation. I grew up in a big city but I no longer live in one, so there are no traffic jams here, ever. the system functions as intended and driving is a pleasure. I have a car, a truck and a travel trailer. I use the car when I'm not hauling things - 34 MPG and fast. The diesel truck gets used when hauling or towing.
There is a rather large disconnect between the city experience and the country experience. Here it's a central part of life, where in the City maybe it has gotten to the point where a lot of people would rather do without or use ride sharing services.
My only wish is that one group does not push their agenda on another group. Public transportation is not useful for people who actually do physical things for living, build physical things, sell things, haul things. The time scale is not conducive to business either. I can spend all day on public transit to get one task done, or spend two hours to get five tasks done in a car. The former makes no sense in a world where the latter is available.
I spent a good amount of time in Japan, and there public transit made much more sense. I never rent a car, always use the rail system. The population density and size of the country lends itself to it much better than the distribution and size of the US. Europe is larger but still better distributed for it. But I don't like it when people want to get rid of cars for the sake of getting rid of cars. It does not make sense universally.
By some drunk and/or dumb person way more stressful. Plus I have to worry about my car breaking down and the price of gas.
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My employer just moved my office recently, and it doubled my commute.
Sounds bad, until you realize that my commute is now 18 minutes.
Everything is relative.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
You know what happens when a city stops growing? It stagnates and dies. Cities plan for growth, and when it stops happening, bad things happen to the plans based on growth. Governments can grow quite easily, but shrinking is very hard, and often behind the curve creating a death spiral for the city. It doesn't happen very often, but when it does, it is ugly.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Except new developments, new jobs, and new residents mean more tax revenue. Local governments all want that and they don't want to spend it on infrastructure. They want to spend it on nice offices, pay raises, pensions, parks, signs, chambers of commerce, and anything except roads, schools, police, fire, or water services.
Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
There is some truth to that. As you build more capacity, traffic in that spot gets worse, but traffic *in general* gets better. The traffic on the main throughfare gets worse, but the traffic on the side streets and alternate routes improves. The key is to expand multiple roads and not just the one.
Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
No, it's not because I'm suburban.
My job is suburban. Even so, for a while when I was single I lived in the city before I got tired of the commute and high rent.
My kids simply cannot use the public education system in the city, so it's a non-starter there. I'd have to pay for private school.
My wife actually works in the city, which is why here commute is so hellish.
Our compromise is that we live in a first-ring suburb with excellent bus and train access. We can be downtown in 20 minutes on public transit, which ironically is better downtown access than when I lived in Manhattan. The schools aren't the absolute best, but they are good enough if you stay on top of your kids, and you don't need to worry about testing into a magnet school. We've had the same cars for 10 years and we've maybe driven 110,000 miles between the two of them... we're not exactly captives to the automobile.
Anyway my point is we did think ahead, spent a lot of time planning out where we are in relation to our jobs and weighing factors like access to the city and schools. But I'm not single, so I sit in traffic.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Yeah, those people with short commutes in the 60s and 70s killed all the highway development because they didn't want to split neighborhoods and highways back then were loud and polluting. Now it's too expensive to get the right of way to expand and add new highways so we are all screwed.
Look at Atlanta vs cities like Houston and LA. At least in Houston and LA there are multiple highways and alternate routes. If the downtown connector gets shut down due to a pinhole camera on a bridge, the entire city is screwed because the ONE perimeter route is already clogged with just local traffic.
Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
. Commuting is for people who didn't think ahead, and they pay a price and even may die because of it.
Or can't afford to buy, or think buying is a bad investment, that property which is close to where they work. In my case, the homes which would require no traffic are in the $1-$2M range. I work just outside of a "cheap" city. I cannot imagine what people in Si Valley deal with.
Actually the 60's -90's you got one job and stayed with it until you died.
This is a myth. Average job tenure is higher today that it was in the past.
Sure, there were some people that had jobs for life (and still are today), but that was not common, especially if you were female or non-white.
The "golden age" of jobs for a lifetime never existed.
Why do you think wage growth has basically been negative for the last 15 years compared to inflation?
It hasn't. Median wages, corrected for inflation, are higher than 15 years ago.
Median household income has gone up less, because of a decline in workforce participation, but even that has not been negative.
I don't really disagree, but how does that rebut my point? You can't say "move close to work" when there are people in the household who work 15 miles apart - the best you can do is split the difference. Bad schools mean some areas are less attractive if you have kids. Uprooting the kids is of course an option, but it is not without cost - so one weighs the costs and the benefits. Would you uproot your kids to save 5 minutes on your commute? How about 30? That line is very dependent on your circumstances.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
But seriously, whichever one makes the most $$....if they have to move, then you do.
Uh, that's what I did - and the place I found was 15 miles from her workplace. She works in the absolute shittiest part of the city. If there was an engineering job there, I couldn't find it.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
3. Houses have become much more expensive
They are also much bigger. New houses today are twice as big as houses built 50 years ago, despite families getting smaller.
Adjusted for inflation, the average cost per square-foot has barely changed.
you're in pretty good shape. Not saying you shouldn't be mad about how crap life is. Just saying the rest of us should be way, way more angry.
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ugh, Why does a LESS_THAN symbol disappear?
Because it is the start of an HTML tag, and /. allows them in comments to a degree. Typically, you overcome this with the use of an HTML entity by typing out the HTML Entity Name. So typing ">" will result in the site displaying a <
No need to argue, we have data!
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
I know that the prevailing sentiment here is traffic, commuting, and why you need to commute and how bad it all is. I commuted at least 25 miles one way my entire working life, and I enjoyed it. Being in my car, alone, driving, was the most pleasant and least stressful part of the day. I could listen to the radio--if I wanted to--or I could keep it off. There was no one else making extra noise, no constant pestering for attention, no distractions except other traffic, which was more or less an auto-pilot kind of thing. Further, no sitting next to others on the bus, no timetables, no waiting, no crowding. Public transportation? Good Lord, spare me, please!
I've always enjoyed running through the gears, turning sharp corners, merging into traffic. I don't care what state I'm in as long as I'm in the state of transportation. I just love driving and have since I was 16. Over 50 years later I still love it. Now that I'm retired I miss it. Any excuse for a road trip and I'm in!
How about a moderation of -1 pedantic.
Some scooters get 92MPG
That'd be pretty mediocre! My 125cc Honda gets >120 MPG. It won't cut it for freeway driving, but it'll get up to 45-50mph without too much struggling.
When our family relocated because I took an I.T. position in Maryland, we were stuck renting a run-down 1970's townhouse for the first couple of years, as we got our bearings. The school district it was in was rated very highly, so with 3 kids, that was a prime concern.
As we started getting serious about searching for a house, we quickly found that almost anything out here with 3 bedrooms or more, suitable for our 5 person (6 with grandma, who lives with us most of the year now) family was WAY outside our price range unless we moved over an hour from the metro area.
We finally compromised on buying a 105 year old home that had a separate 2 car garage and a partially finished basement, plus the bonus of a nice view near the top of a hill. It's in a small town near the river, and has a rail line running through it with a commuter train you can take to and from where I work. The school district? Not as good as where we stayed initially, but this district was still rated ok when we got here. I think it's gotten worse since then, but thankfully - our kids are reaching their teens and will be out of it soon.
My workplace recently relocated me, along with a subset of our group, to a new office that's about 20 minutes closer to my house than my old office. But it ALSO meant there's no way to take the train there anymore, without doing a bus transfer. Too much headache so now I just deal with the drive.
All in all, the driving around sucks -- but I don't regret our decisions either. I've been able to argue for my employer letting me work from home more often, these days, so that makes it a lot less painful. Compromising on the biggest investment you'll probably ever make (your house) doesn't seem wise to me, just to play a game of trying to be close to work. Not when work is full of highly mobile employees and they have multiple offices all over the country, and have already done 2 mergers and eliminated one new business they tried to start up in one city.
Do not react to NPCs, but thank you for pointing out the absurdity of his argument.
... changes your view on this.
Rural American a car / truck is mandatory as walking 15 miles to the store to get a pair of pants during snow or 100+ degree days simply isnt feasible walking / biking.
Many states dont have enough people to subsidize public transit in medium sized cities let alone small town USA
Big city areas.... driving a car to work always ended up being stressful. Having a car to do weekend stuff was a huge benefit
I enjoy driving in rural America. Cant stand driving in cities where all you road boulders are parked in the left lane or worse where you are bumper to bumper while bicycles pass you by
NJ sucks. We have one of the highest population densities, but I've been at my place of work too long and am doing too well to leave, yet moving isn't a viable option for other reasons either. I've a 40 minute to 1 hour drive one way each day, depending on traffic. Twice this week alone, Rt295N was backed up for miles in the morning due to accidents. Every year it gets worse; more accidents, more traffic, more lane closures, even more assholes cutting you off or not playing nice with others. (and turn signals? What are those? )
Anymore, I hate driving. I want those hours of my life back to do something besides concentrating and staring at a road.. or sitting, waiting at endless traffic lights.
Look back up at my post, now look back down, you're on the Internet. Now look back up. I'm a signature.
ugh, Why does a LESS_THAN symbol disappear?
Because it is the start of an HTML tag, and /. allows them in comments to a degree. Typically, you overcome this with the use of an HTML entity by typing out the HTML Entity Name. So typing ">" will result in the site displaying a <
Thanks! Guess my markup is out of practice.
I have to read more carefully before pressing 'submit'
"roaring off on open highways" and "too much stop-and-go traffic" are generally talking about two different environments. I think there's a big difference in user experience between stop-and-go traffic to get to your work, and driving a country road in fall colors to a new destination.
I suspect that what the study is really measuring is a cultural change brought on by easy access to personal electronics and social media. It's a sucking thing rather than a pushing thing. When most of your needs are being met by that silicon rectangle in your hand, it's easier to decide not to take that drive to the country and experience reality.
The US is a big, big place and us humans don't actually inhabit more than a small portion of it. I ride (Harley) just for the fun of it, and I have no problems finding empty roads and interesting near-deserted places to explore all over the central and western US. I can ride for days, alone, and have a great time.
I admit I may be an edge case. I'm old enough to be in the "let's go for a drive" generation, and I live right on the edge of my area's urban growth boundary. Head south-west for four blocks and I'm in the country. But even were I right in the middle of the metro area, it wouldn't be more than an hour to get out into the open, except during rush hour of course.
I get that the problem as framed is that if you're driving for hours and hours to and from work during the week, why the heck would you want to take a drive on the weekend? My answer put succinctly is that it's a different thing. It's like, the difference between riding a stationary bike and riding a mountain bike in the woods. It's a different experience. Being bored to tears on the stationary doesn't preclude finding pleasure in a country ride.
When I worked in the city, my commute was typically 45 minutes to 1.5 hours, one way, depending on traffic. I'm well aware that there's areas where this is a lot worse. My uncle had a commute in LA of three hours each direction, which begs the question, why the hell didn't he move somewhere else?
Daughter is in her twenties, and she apparently inherited my love of driving. She has a small economical car that she takes exploring to let her mind decompress after a tough day, despite having a 40 minute to 1 hour commute each way to her job. Where she lives, there's traffic for about four blocks, and then open road. Admittedly, probably another edge case.
Oliver's law of assumed responsibility: If you're seen fixing it, you will be blamed for breaking it.
That post pretty much says "I don't understand anything about economics, sociology, or politics
Well then. Please elucidate. Bestow some of your vast wisdom upon us.
Have gnu, will travel.
My Chevy Volt is doing 175 MPG for its lifetime average. My driving is averaging about 85-90% electric. My next vehicle will very likely be a full EV. My power comes from a power portfolio that is pretty clean already and is getting cleaner, plus I opt for paying more for green power on my bill to create demand for renewable sources versus fossil fuels. I live in a climate where two wheeled vehicles don't do well several months out of the year due to snow and ice. Yes, I know there are ways for cyclists and motorcyclists to deal with snow, ice, freezing temperatures and all that -- but most people aren't going to deal with that. Scooters and motorcycles powered by gasoline also sidestep a lot of emissions laws that cars don't, and can pollute quite a bit, even though they consume less fuel. Small engines can be emissions nightmares, especially two stroke engines.
Cities plan for growth, and when it stops happening, bad things happen
Ponzi planned for growth.
Many perfectly viable businesses have upper limits on growth and seem to succeed without it. My dentist, for one example.
Have gnu, will travel.
I used to love driving, never thought I'd ever want a self driving car. But I realize just how much productive time is wasted in the car going to and from an office that you really don't need to physically be in most of the time. Traffic where I moved to is getting worse. Once open highways are clogged, accident ridden messes. That's the other thing, so many accidents, as if every bad driver in the country moved here. So if it's not normal traffic it's hold ups because some dolt wrecked. People are simply incapable of taking care of themselves and need technology to do it for them.
we spent a few hundred on a sensor that only trips if a car pulls up.
Which puts cyclists like me at a disadvantage. A lot of cities' traffic engineering departments in this country appear not to know how to calibrate their induction loops to recognize a bicycle with its wheels over the crack in the road. Sometimes it won't even recognize a bicycle and a motorcycle put together waiting on the same loop.
I can do all sorts of stuff (work, relax, etc.) while on public transit.
Provided public transit runs where and when you need. Citilink buses in Fort Wayne, Indiana, shut down for the night and have 58 days of scheduled downtime per year (source: fwcitilink.com) so that drivers can be with their families. Also provided you can carry and use a laptop for your work, as many tasks need a mouse, a large screen, or a powerful CPU or GPU.
# ToDo: Soviet Russia gag goes here.
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Houses have become much more expensive
American houses are absolutely insanely huge. The rest of the world manages just fine in much smaller accomodation.
I can eat breakfast, shave, catch up on the news and post to /. all while dri#$#![CARRIER LOST]
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Basically, you move with the person that makes the most money, right?
It's the golden rule: "He who makes the most gold, makes the rules".
Sexist pig!
I see no sexist asymmetry in cayenne8's comment. As I understand the comment, if he makes more money than she does, he and she ought to live close to where he works. If she makes more money than he does, he and she ought to live close to where she works.
Adjusted for inflation, the average cost per square-foot has barely changed.
But has the minimum size in square feet that a given city's zoning law allows a home builder to build changed? I seem to remember some cities were fighting the tiny house movement in court.
I have not met one child of military that was not messed up in some way. The school near me that had military kids is the most problematic school in the area.
Laws are rules for the court, but merely a bottom bar to hit for life. Think beyond laws in your actions always.
2 People work in most households so divide that wage by 2
I saw my dad support us during the 60-70s easily with blue collar work and mom get a part time job when the 80s S&L bust impacted the mortgage.
She never stopped working after that
Where does it get better though? The one big study on "Induced Demand": https://www.aeaweb.org/article... - "We conclude that increased provision of roads or public transit is unlikely to relieve congestion."
Just googling around suggests there's a 1:1 or near 1:1 correlation with capacity and increased traffic.
That isn't to say we shouldn't build more lanes and roads, but as more people move to cities etc - traffic is going to get worse. Where I live - rush hour went from something that happens between 8-10 am in the morning and 4-7pm in the evening - now it's pretty much rush hour traffic all day every day from 7-9pm, and even on weekends.
Not only do I enjoy driving, I PREFER to drive a stick shift. My personal car is a Mustang for the weekends. I requested my employer provided car to be a stick shift as well. Living out here in flyover country, (small-medium city 200k), a 10 minute commute to work would be a lifetime. Lots of great country to drive in here. From time to time, I have to go to Tulsa, Dallas, Chicago, Detroit but I don't fly...I drive. As long as the cruise control & spotify work, doesn't bother me one bit.
Problem is if enough people did so the country would (probably? what do I know) be in trouble. At least in the non-long run.
That said I agree, and I do so too for the most part, I drive a 20+ year old car and use iPhone 4S. There are people who go farther though: "This couple lives on 6% of their income so they can give $100,000 a year to charity": https://qz.com/515655/this-cou...
Screw the ecahhhhnamy and most so-called economists. It's not environmentally sustainable for a country to be sustained by the constant production and destruction of throw-away junk.
The same problems happened in small cities. Usually there is one major intersection where circular roads meet arterial roads, or even just two intersections where commuters are trying to go into two different directions simultaneously at the same time, or all trying to go on the same road at the same time, exceeding capacity.
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
It's impossible to avoid the commute unless you both work for the same employer, and then the family factors further complicate it is the point. E.g., we're equidistant from our employers now in an area with good schools. It'd be impossible for me to live within walking distance of my job, due to zoning and security, and even close to it would be poor schools. Living within walking distance of her work would involve living in rental housing catering to students, and a poor school district. So I have a 15 minute commute and she has a half hour commute.
Because in many cases, they choose to build industrial estates and business parks next to sketchy parts of the city, while the good schools and housing are in the diametrically opposite part of the city. Business owners don't want commuters clogging up their deliveries. Residential owners don't want business parks spoiling their views. So the commutes just keep getting longer.
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
Because commuters are constantly "shopping around" for a shorter commute. If they find a short cut, a rat run, or a suburb with a shorter commute time, they will use that.
Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
I live in a major city. I work in the suburbs. I take the 2 hour driving time directly out of my workday, so I only work 6 hours a day. My employer decided they want to run their op where office space is cheaper rather than where the talent lives. That's on them.
Ha, I can't afford that. Commuting isn't as bad now as it used to be since the company moved closer to me (thus forstalling my leaving and looking for something closer). But generally the high paying jobs are not in places with affordable housing, especially in high tech. Rent across the street from where I work is more than double my mortgage. Buying it out of the question as the costs have gone up faster than the value of what I own, and at the age I am I'm not going to start a new mortgage unless it's someplace for retirement.
Your advice is find if you're just a general purpose manage for a retail big box store in a podunk town. But then hope you don't get laid off when there's an economic downturn since there won't be replacement jobs. It's not as common now for new employers to pay relocation costs as it used to be either. If you're a high tech worker, you can't just work anywhere, the companies are not evenly spread around the country so that you can live wherever you want.
Yup, and that's why one of my coworkers bitched every day about his awful commute from San Francisco to San Jose, because his wife was the one who made the most money. But he still did the commute, he wasn't just going to quit and stay at home because you don't just give up that extra $160K/year because the commute is long.
However cities changed. We used to have jobs downtown and people lived in suburbs and there was good mass transit options to get from there to downtown. Now the good jobs that pay a decent salary out out at the suburbs, and not necessarily the suburb you are in but the one 30 miles away or more, and the mass transit is not set up to handle that sort of commute.
Also companies today come and go, in many fields you couldn't keep a job for life if you wanted to.
Trip time reduction is not the point! The point is that the total throughput of the road (total number of trips) increases. That means more people can get where they want or need to go - for example you can build more housing and have those people get to and from jobs in a job center like a downtown area. In the same amount of time as before, of course, because the extra capacity gets filled up. But again, trip time reduction is not the point, and it's okay that trip time remains the same because the total number of trips increases.
Bay Area is just bad because of geography. Mountains and water means fewer freeways that everyone packs onto. And when you do have a good commute the jobs change and suddenly everyone wants to commute in a different pattern, or the roads designed for residential traffic are now handling heavier loads than intended. The mass transit is just badly designed because of political issue and because the commute patterns have changed since the mass transit was built. But many people put up with it for the sole reason that if you lose you job then you can find a similar one within a 20 mile radius.
They build new roads, they widen roads, etc. Which is why there's ALWAYS construction going on and that construction causes more traffic :-)
You might only work for 2-3 companies your entire life.
*I* worked for three companies without ever quitting my job. *I* stayed in the same place, every 8 years the company would change around me.
They finally mostly closed down our region and laid everyone off. Out of over a thousand, I was one of the last 20 to go. I'm not sure if that was good or NOT, everyone else had already settled down again before I even got out the door.
If the universe is someone's simulation -- does that mean the stars are just stuck pixels?
2 People work in most households so divide that wage by 2
Nope. The average American household has 1.3 earners.
Households in the bottom 20% average 0.5 earners. Households in the top 20% average 2.0 earners.
www.bls.gov
I don't think I did that at all. I defended my decision to be in the 'burbs, but not the concept of the 'burbs. You have to play the hand you are dealt. And yes, I'm white, but my wife is not - so you got that wrong, too. The main reason we picked the suburb that we are in is because it has both a lot of diversity and decent schools.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
There's a few big differences between then and now:
1. Both parents work now, so it's much harder to find a place that's close for both
2. People change jobs every 2-3 years, instead of staying at one company for decades
3. Houses have become much more expensive, together with the associated transaction costs
Yes, those are differences but there are others that were caused by the predominance of the automobile and have led to our dependence on it. So yes, the two income household is much more common now, but another change is that we are more likely to live farther away from where we grew up than we were prior the car. In the past we managed to find jobs in the same communities as our parents, sibling, aunts and uncles because it was a priority, - AND because individual communities had more jobs. Now we have bedroom communities with relatively few businesses and jobs compared to the number of people living there, and this is because of the car. When my wife and I lived in a 2nd ring suburb, the chances of us both finding a job there was almost nil even though we both have careers that are in high demand fields. We now live in a city and both of us have changed jobs multiple times. We've been here 20 years and have never had to move to stay close to work.
I was born in the early 60's in a small town. At the time, there were corner stores, a movie theater, a resort, barbershops, clothing stores, and a lumber yard. There were small neighborhood schools and churches. Now most of the retail businesses are gone. The small churches and schools were replaced by mega churches and schools some of which are now outside of town. You need to drive there. But this is not a place in decline. The population is 10 times what it was, but all the things that used to be in town have been replaced by shopping centers, big box stores, and industrial parks located near major transportation corridors, in some cases two towns away. It was not a big deal in the 70's and 80's when this movement accelerated because it was an easy drive. Now that everyone has to drive everywhere and the population has grown, congestion is a big problem.
And you're are right, houses are more expensive than the were in 1960. They are also twice as big even though the average family size has shrunk. There is something also very telling about the houses today versus houses built prior 1940 or even 1950. If you get a chance to look at an old house, what prominent feature is missing that virtually all houses of today all have? A garage. In fact a garage is often THE single largest identifiable part of a house. The square footage we dedicate to our cars is kind of insane when you think about it.
Garage aside though, houses today are still huge by comparison. Do we really need houses that big? Should we really be driving 5 miles to go to a restaurant or bar instead of just being able to walk to them instead? In many ways, I think we have become victims of our own gluttony and laziness. 3/4 of US men are overweight. It would do us a whole lot of good to place people, retail, jobs, and services closer together and we walked or biked more and drove a whole lot less.
There are very weak employee protection rules here - it's an "at will" employment state. I'm not an employee in any case - I'm a contractor/consultant.
Our suburb is very old and train-centered. Our elementary school is less than half a mile from the house and we walk the kids daily. Or did, anyway - the older one now gets on the bus.
I did a 40 minute commute for a single year when my wife got a new job. I bought a fuel efficient shitbox and listened to a lot of radio. That was pre-kids and she worked long hours, so I didn't feel like I was missing out on much. Now I'd hate that. But hey, some people drive cabs all day so I can't really complain. I have colleagues who drive an hour. One is getting married but he is downtown and his new wife works over an hour away (in no traffic) in an adjacent state. They are trying to figure out what to do - for now he may keep his downtown condo but only use it weeknights and then they will live together on weekends until one of them finds something more convenient. Single=Easy :)
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
I commute a little over 40 miles each way, I have a nice little place in the country and the difference between renting here and renting in the city pays the fuel bill.
Although you might be right about dying on the road a couple of months back i was behind a camper when it started going into the verge with barely time to think wtf a car comes speeding past (about 60-70mph) and ploughs into the car behind me.
I was pretty lucky, i'd been let into traffic by that car behind me in the previous town. Strangely an old fella had been let in before me but for some reason he decided to turn back into the road he had been let out of. So it probably should have been me and that car behind me had no chance at all...
Blarney Quality Restaurant, Plants
driving my car used to be fun, it no longer is. besides the ever increasing traffic jams which means you're not really driving anyway, but just sitting in a car waiting, there are increased police presence making sure you're following the traffic rules, which also have become more complex/unclear and sometimes impossible to follow (not really the rules, but rather situations; contradicting signs etc) and fines have increased to ridiculous levels. clearly, there is no fun to be had anymore.
i try to go to work by bike as much as possible, and still google maps reports that i've been in traffic for 42 hours last month! that is almost 2 days lost for nothing.
On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
Haha, the old Slashdot standard of mistaking possible with practical or even desirable.
I figure a job change has to be really good to make the transaction costs of moving worthwhile, moving an entire family could cost upwards of $20,000 when you factor in market-necessary home improvements, selling costs, buying costs, moving costs, and any changes necessary to live in the new house (everything from fixing what's broken to furniture that fits the new house). Moving more than 3 times probably nullifies the financial gain from more lucrative positions.
In fact, I'd even argue that economics suggests that frequent moving isn't that common, mostly because homes are generally oriented towards ownership and not rental. If frequent moving was economically desirable, we'd have a different economic structure around housing oriented towards longer term leases and rentals vs ownership, and probably an entirely different housing model than single family homes.
While it's true there's a lot of rental out there, it's generally occupied by either childless old people, very young people or low-income families. Family housing generally isn't rental, and even if you wanted it your selection would be pretty tough because 3-4 BR, 1500 sq ft rentals are really uncommon. It's 1-2 BR and smaller sq footage.
Moving a lot for a job is like chasing a mirage, it's all energy spent and little actually gained. It's best to min-max housing location, likely employment centers, commutes, schools, and then stay put. There's so much more to choosing your residence than commute -- access to shops, restaurants, recreation, etc.
Lower your expectations
Why stop there. Live in the street. Collect food stamps. It's amazing the wealth you can accumulate when you don't pay for accomodation and eat from the bin.
I mean the world is trending towards a gap in affordability and income, so clearly the problem here is expecatations.
Also your impression of what people do in their houses is completely detached from reality. People don't renovate every 2.5 years. 30 year old appliances also do not work fine. In fact just owning a 30 year old appliance in countries where you don't get fantasy prices for electricity can often contribute to your affordability problem. People haven't been switching phones and laptops yearly for quite a while now, and even small houses with small yards are starting to get frigging expensive close to jobs (the entire topic of conversation).
# ToDo: Soviet Russia gag goes here.
If it wasn't for the brave Germans in WW2 we'd all be speaking Russian by now.
No, wait, that's not it...
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
many motorcycles get 64MPG
As a motorcyclist, I have to say that's only true for very small motorcycles ridden very slowly.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
And that will reduce my commute times?
So more commute time, less safety, inability to shuttle kids around, requirement of shower when I get to work, susceptibility to rain and snow... what's not to like? At least if I survived I'd be in good cardiovascular health.
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
There are no bachelors in the top 20%?
Looking at the data, households on the top 20% have as few as zero and as many as 5 workers, or more. The average of 2.0 hides a lot, even if the modal value is 2. But $150,000 average with five working might not be impressive per person!
3. Houses have become much more expensive
They are also much bigger. New houses today are twice as big as houses built 50 years ago, despite families getting smaller.
Adjusted for inflation, the average cost per square-foot has barely changed.
They are only much bigger in the USA, maybe also Canada. In the UK they are much more expensive, and if anything smaller.
I remember back in the day when I turned 18, went to DMV to get a license. then shortly after got my first car. $300 junker, yeah! now I get to go cruisin'. These days I can easily see why millennials would not pursue such, why? to go cruising in a traffic jam?
Here in SF bay area not much option, public transportation ok in some areas, bad in many others. Problem is the mindset of everybody in this country (rail transportation, and ***real*** bike lanes unimaginable) but wait maybe the millennials will detour from baby boomer thinking. I have read a lot of congestion caused by additional cars such as Uber and Lyft as I see these as "constant commuters" as usually the car is parked at home or at work but only on the road during between. Uber cars are on the road constantly.
I real stink I have are car commercials that show how fun it is to drive with wide open roads or city roads with no other cars (yeah, need the world become like "I am Legend" or "the Omega Man"). Cmon' how many people really like to drive, I say very few percent. Rest of us smucks just use it to get from point A to B.
mfwright@batnet.com
Just because you cycle to work it doesn't mean you can't shuttle kids at other times, surely?
For me it would not work. In the summer, when the weather is best for cycling I need to drop the kids off at camp on my way to work. In the winter, I swing by their school on the way home from work to pick them up from after school activities. Not everyday, but it complicates things. Add it to the abject terror of biking in on narrow busy roads, weather unpleasantness, and the loss of time (and therefore money) - it just won't work for me. I'll even use the showers at work :)
W..w..W - Willy Waterloo washes Warren Wiggins who is washing Waldo Woo.
Lower your expectations
Sounds great.
buy used cars
I already do, but you don't save as much money as you might think when you factor in all of the preventative maintenance that must be done because you can't be sure that the original owner performed maintenance religiously. Changing ALL of the fluids (transmission, brake, oil, coolant) and filters is not cheap. Depending on the age, you may want to also get the timing belt/chain serviced, rotors for the brakes, etc. Buying a new car obviates all of these efforts and the car is under warranty. But I still buy used cars.
20 or 30 year old appliances work fine
Oh. I thought we were dealing with reality here. That 20 year old refrigerator, if it is still working, uses more energy to keep stuff cold than a newer one costs overall. Spending money in one area to lower costs in another bears no relation to "lower expectations".
don't switch phones/laptops/iPads every year
Most of the people I know, do not switch out every year. All of them are eventually forced to switch due to planned obsolescence, but it is not every year. Examples would be laptops that have processors that are no longer "supported" in Windows 10 or Huawei not offering security patches for phones that are older than 2 years. I guess people could just stop using modern technology entirely, I mean who needs to receive phone calls or use the Internet? Surely YOU are not that important where you need any of those "conveniences".
buy a small house with a small yard
Can't afford even a small house, much less a large house. This one is easy to do; Just don't buy a house at all!
or better yet, a 2-family where some other schmoe pays your mortgage.
As much as I would love to lower my expectations, the concept of living off of someone else's labors is disturbing to me. If this is part of lowering my expectations, I want no part of it.
I dunno dude. Your prescription doesn't seem to help much. Got anything more useful?
"Someone needs to talk to the tree of liberty about its ghoulish drinking problem." by ohnocitizen
Used cars: do the work yourself. Laptops/phones: you don't need "security support" to make phone calls or surf the Web. If you can't run Win 10, run 7 or Linux. Appliances: fridge may be worth it, others are not energy-wise. Being a landlord: it's a vocation like anything else -- all jobs and careers involve being paid from "others' labors."
You don't seem to understand the definition of the word career. The GP said each had a career, not that each had a job.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Funny you that you mention that. The place is so overcrowded, that their shit LITERALLY washed up on shore one day (not to mention that this was only one instance where the feces made it to shore). It was washed up on the beach for MILES.
There's a video of it here. In the end, the city blamed it on Canadian geese! Ahh Fairhope, AL - home of the rich and tame-us.
Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.