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Oregon Unconstitutionally Fined a Man $500 for Saying 'I am an Engineer,' Federal Judge Rules (vice.com)
A federal district court has ruled that the state of Oregon illegally infringed on a man's First Amendment rights for fining him $500 because he wrote "I am an engineer" in a 2014 email to the state's Engineering Board. The court ruled that the provision in the law he broke is unconstitutional, which opens the door for people in the state to legally call themselves "engineers." Motherboard reports: This dystopian saga dates back to 2013, when Mats Jarlstrom's wife, while driving, was caught by a red light camera near their home in Beaverton, Oregon. Rather than pay the red light camera fine, Jarlstrom, an electrical engineer, spent months researching the specifics of yellow light timing and red light cameras, and learned that his wife had likely been ticketed for running a yellow light. Jarlstrom began sharing his findings on his personal website, at conferences, and even got featured on 60 Minutes. He also wrote several emails to the Oregon Board of Engineers explaining what he had found. In the email, he noted that he was an "engineer."
Rather than looking into whether traffic light timing should be changed, however, the board sent Jarlstrom a warning -- and then a $500 fine for the crime of "practicing engineering without being registered." Jarlstrom had violated one of Oregon's "Title Laws," which states that "no persons may ... hold themselves out as an 'engineer'" unless they are an "individual who is registered in this state and holds a valid certificate to practice engineering in this state." Jarlstrom has a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering and spent his career working in electronics, but wasn't board certified. He sued the state's engineering board and, last week, a U.S. District Court judge for the District of Oregon ruled that the state's law is unconstitutional. The judge wrote: "The statutes prohibit truthfully describing oneself as an 'engineer,' in any context. This restriction clearly controls and suppresses protected speech, and enforcement of the statute against protected speech is not a hypothetical threat. The term 'engineer,' standing alone, is neither actually nor inherently misleading. Courts have long recognized that the term 'engineer' has a generic meaning separate from 'professional engineer' and that the term has enjoyed 'widespread usage in job titles in our society to describe positions which require no professional training.'"
"The judge ordered that the word 'engineer' be struck from Oregon's law, which is 'substantially overbroad in violation of the First Amendment' and specifically noted that Jarlstrom may describe himself publicly and privately using the word 'engineer' and that he may continue to talk about traffic light timing publicly," reports Motherboard.
Rather than looking into whether traffic light timing should be changed, however, the board sent Jarlstrom a warning -- and then a $500 fine for the crime of "practicing engineering without being registered." Jarlstrom had violated one of Oregon's "Title Laws," which states that "no persons may ... hold themselves out as an 'engineer'" unless they are an "individual who is registered in this state and holds a valid certificate to practice engineering in this state." Jarlstrom has a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering and spent his career working in electronics, but wasn't board certified. He sued the state's engineering board and, last week, a U.S. District Court judge for the District of Oregon ruled that the state's law is unconstitutional. The judge wrote: "The statutes prohibit truthfully describing oneself as an 'engineer,' in any context. This restriction clearly controls and suppresses protected speech, and enforcement of the statute against protected speech is not a hypothetical threat. The term 'engineer,' standing alone, is neither actually nor inherently misleading. Courts have long recognized that the term 'engineer' has a generic meaning separate from 'professional engineer' and that the term has enjoyed 'widespread usage in job titles in our society to describe positions which require no professional training.'"
"The judge ordered that the word 'engineer' be struck from Oregon's law, which is 'substantially overbroad in violation of the First Amendment' and specifically noted that Jarlstrom may describe himself publicly and privately using the word 'engineer' and that he may continue to talk about traffic light timing publicly," reports Motherboard.
And, now he can call himself a "dedicated" engineer.
Ask me any questions.
The ruling should have been that it's legal to truthfully call yourself an engineer, since he is.
The actual ruling is apparently that it's legal to lie about it, due to "widespread usage in job titles in our society to describe positions which require no professional training."
The story is relevant here because of the laughable term "sotware engineering".
so $500 refund - 25K legal fees = big loss for him
Stay classy Oregon idiots
Oregon Fines Man For Writing a Complaint Email Stating 'I Am An Engineer'
Portland refers to their trash collectors as "sanitation engineers".
Why is that allowed, exactly? Care to explain?
That's nothing, the guy at Subway who made my sandwich had the balls to call himself an "artist".
Minesweeper Certified Solitaire Engineer.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
This used to be a protected title, so be gone with all protections of titles.
Just address me as:
"Your Royal Highness, Dr. Admiral Anne Nonymous Esquire"
My Doctorate is in theoretical doctoring
I am admiral of the floaty mcpoolface navy
I am queen of my castle.
I *am* a lawyer
I disagree that it's a loss for him... trust me... I'm an engineer
As a fellow engineer, but not a "professional engineer", I'll happily donate to his legal campaign, and I'll definitely give him an interview if his resume ever comes across my desk.
He'll get legal fees and maybe more.
Because the judge ruled that the man's constitutional rights were infringed (the whole 1st amendment thing), the loser will almost certainly have to pay the man's legal fees. The man might be able to sue for other damages as well. I'm sure the news and intrawebs will be full of answers to this question soon.
Maybe we'll even see TV ads from lawyers that say, "Have you been fined for calling yourself an engineer? You may be entitled to a large cash award. Call 1-800-SUE-4MNY".
Violation of the constitution gives him the right to sue the board ... hope he fucks them without lube.
and the CEO of Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, and Google. I also was the first human on the moon.
Free speech!
Why don't these people try to fix the real problems in this city?
My internet is through a pair of shotgunned USR Courier ISDN modems because ComCRAP wont bring fiber into my apartment even tough it's in the next building 15' away.
They're worrying about someone's fucking title.
Go fuck yourselves.
My old MMD / QMED card has Junior Engineer as one of my endorsements. I worked with and for Licensed Engineers. Most PE's could not even qualify to take the exams needed to become Licensed Engineers.
Passionately Indifferent
I thought the court would hold that the state may prohibit using the title "engineer" commercially, to solicit business, but could not prohibit calling oneself an engineer in other contexts. In fact, the court ruled much more broadly. The ruling is that title laws in general are questionable, and must be narrowly tailored. (Though "professional engineer" and 'registered professional engineer" are still regulated).
Quoting here the part of the ruling that I found most interesting and surprising:
---
The Title laws restrict constitutionally protected speech. While the Court need not reach the question of whether the Title laws are invalid in every application, the Title laws prohibit a substantial amount of protected speech. The record demonstrates that the threat to free expression is not merely hypothetical. Therefore, "from the text of [the law] and from actual fact," the Court holds that the Title laws are substantially overbroad in violation of the First
Amendment. Virginia v. Hicks, 539 U.S. 113, 122 (2003)
---
https://ij.org/wp-content/uplo...
engineer
noun
1. a person who designs, builds, or maintains engines, machines, or public works.
verb
1. design and build (a machine or structure).
Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
This guy sort of sounds like the type who would go to the ends of the earth to prove his point if he feels he's right. People like him are often the catalyst for change. Good for him.
Also, now I know not to piss off Swedish engineers.
Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
can he also add in his red light ticket fine as well? or does he now have the right to fight it in court may be hard if the video is long gone.
You owe me $500.
There is a lot of research that says the lights with cameras have the yellow light time a lot shorter than other lights, in order to maximize revenue. They should really replace the yellow light with a countdown timer before they can make people pay for entering the intersection a second after the light turns red! And yes, I've gotten caught be one of these in Tualitin myself, as I was hurrying to complete my right turn before the light went red.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Maybe we'll even see TV ads from lawyers that say, "Have you been fined for calling yourself an engineer? You may be entitled to a large cash award.
Nah, there is no pain or suffering involved and there are no medical bills to pad with bogus "physical therapy". No lawyer would take this case on contigency.
Interesting, I wonder how/if this will bleed over to other states -- many have very similar laws.
On the other hand, this is leftist Oregon...not sure how this will play in Texas. Even if it is a federal court. We've all seen how federal courts in different parts of the country hand down different rulings...which then go to different appeals courts which see different.....and finally to the Supremes.
I doubt this guy will have the $$$ to defend if it gets appealed. After all, you don't get the cash -- costs, etc. -- until the other side runs you bankrupt. A decisions is never final if you have deep pockets (i.e. the Oregon board of Engineers).
he was able to prove tickets were being written for those who legally pass through the lights. This means the city was going to lose money and the camera company was going to lose money too if changes were made. They had to do what they could to discredit and shut him up. It did not work.
so $500 refund - 25K legal fees = big loss for him
He'll probably get legal fees back plus punitive damages.
They were involved in attempting to deprive him of first amendment free speech rights under color of statute, A violation of 42 U.S. Code 1983 - Civil action for deprivation of rights -
Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress
Civil Rights Attorney's Fees Awards Act of 1976 provides attorney's fees for:
"any action or proceeding to enforce a provision of sections 1981, 1981a, 1982, 1983, 1985, and 1986 of this title, title IX of Public Law 92–318 [20 U.S.C. 1681 et seq.], the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993 [42 U.S.C. 2000bb et seq.], the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act of 2000 [42 U.S.C. 2000cc et seq.], title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 [42 U.S.C. 2000d et seq.], or section 12361 of title 34"
I am an attorney.
(Stands back and watches the shit fly.)
"Maybe we'll even see TV ads from lawyers that say, 'Have you been fined for calling yourself an engineer?...'"
ITYM from hucksters calling themselves lawyers.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
The judge likely wanted to be a bit more comprehensive since he could see that the board was quite willing to abuse any hint of a technicality.
Can he sue the board for using the law as written? Surely the people at fault are the lawmakers who made an unconstitutional law... But even then, wouldn't they just claim that they acted in good faith?
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
>Though "professional engineer" and 'registered professional engineer" are still regulated
Screw that. My job grade is "Principle Engineer", commonly called PE. Engineering is certainly my profession. I'm a professional engineer.
If the state wants to make it illegal to claim a state certification that you don't actually have, then do that. So limit it to "Oregon state registered engineer". Anything more general is legit.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
So Fuck You, Oregon!
Unless they didn't -- he was singled out for abuse because he attacked the state's source of revenue (red-light pig-cameras).
... fighting the battle that only people who pass the PE exam are allowed to call themselves an '"engineer". The title has become so diluted over the years that continuing to come after people for describing their occupation using the "E" word is nothing less than ridiculous.
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
So how many people in Oregon where fined for putting 'software engineer' on their resume? If the answer is none, i think this fellow has good evidence for a counter suit that this was nothing more than malicious prosecution as it should be obvious to all that this law was never intended to apply to 'normal engineers' but rather 'profession engineers'.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Yeah... Proving that could be hard. Can get get discovery, get their internal emails etc?
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Yes, there was extreme abuse here.
Using your eyes and a stopwatch is 'practicing engineering'. If so are there police radar traps - as Mr policeman is clearly also practicing engineering if he gos to court to defend the radar instrument.
So said, was not Chicago pulling the same yellow light tricks, and a person from CA said they had statistics on death and serious injuries increasing? Lets get those injured suing and those forced to pay higher insurance premiums.
Now the victim will get talk show and appearance fees, that will prove great monetary loss over the past many years. Hope he is adequately compensated.
Mr. Simpson, don't you worry. I watched Matlock in a bar last night. The sound wasn't on, but I think I got the gist of it.
..,concern themselves more with practical and actual application of comp sci theory. Computer science is more about research and development of new theory.
...that makes sense!
What he did was really cool, and after reading that presso, no one could possibly suggest that the dudes not an engineer.
All that said, my wife would have told me to shut up and pay the f-ing fine for her.
So.. while this is the most extreme escalated case I can think of, I keep hearing stories like this involving EEs and I wonder if there is something weird going on in our community. Engineers in general can be bad about believing themselves experts in everything, but EEs seem to be esp prone to feeling they are experts in any random engineering problem in other disciplines and get pissy when presenting themselves as 'an engineer' to domain experts in that other engineering field does not get them the authority they believe it should.
The group of WOMEN that implemented that bridge which collapsed and murdered a bunch of people were 'licensed' engineers, of course. The 'license' granted the lead idiot the 'right' to assume her experiments with the computer CAD software meant that 'white male privilege' had prevented the use of massive unsupported concrete spans. No cables above, or arches or columns beneath were needed, when her experiments on the computer showed her one only had to massively increase the tension in the re-inforced concrete structure.
Because they were 'licensed', not one of those women 'engineers' will suffer any consequence of their murderous incompetence. Recall that traffic was not halted in the road underneath when the internal cables were tightened in a laughable attempt to halt the fracturing of the span- cos a woman knows her 'license' proves she is an 'engineering god'- which is why you seek a license in the first place.
The Wizard of Oz mocks the concept of the 'license' with the paper that grants the 'scarecrow' 'brains'. The author was well aquainted with the corrupt use of such professional 'licenses' in the USA at the time of writing.
'Licensed' software engineers coded every NSA disaster for decades before the NSA got smart, and seeded the creation of entities like Google. I've witnessed the types who actively sought out 'licensing' and everyone was an incompetent low functioning be-ta.
Oregon sought to protect its criminal greed and incompetence with statist actions in the court- but the USA is one of the few nations on Earth with a sane active protected constitution. Yet most of the posts by dribbling be-tas in this thread support the state of Oregon. To most be-tas, a 'license' is the only road to respectability, for they lack the talent, learning and experience to do it truly- and hate the idea that a 'skilled' person actually has to be skilled.
Maybe all the schools should rename the faculties if they are not turning out engineers.
On the other hand, I do think that anyone who casually calls him/herself a software engineer should be questioned aggressively, as I find people who adopt that title have nowhere near the concern and care for the performance of their designs that a real engineer should...
should be regulated as a CO pollution source and thereby regulated
Doctor Feelgood
Doctor Dre
Spacing Guild Engineer
His wife got the ticket. He's probably SOL on that.
Now if he can show that the state is acting in violation if RICO statutes (Organized crime)... he could put some of them in jail for a while. Bad timing on lights to collect money, rigging the engineering process.... probably other laws were broken. I wouldn't mind if some of them spent time in jail. That'll teach them to have red light cameras as an un-official tax on people.
but being conservative means "opposed to change".
In America the people we call conservative aren't. They're in favor of sweeping changes to social order. They seem to use the word "conservative" to mask that as most Americans are conservative (mostly because they live paycheck to paycheck and are terrified of any change that might push them over the edge into homelessness).
As for the racism, I've never once heard a left winger defend the left wing for accusations of racism, but I hear it constantly from the right wing. That's because we on the left censor our racists (yes, that includes the occasional twat who takes SJW political correctness to the point of racism). The right at least tolerates and usually welcomes the racist into their fold in a sort of "ends justify the means". I mean, the right wing president famously said "both sides were bad" when a literal nazi ran over a woman. I could give dozens of other examples of mainstream right wing apologizing for racists (spend an hour on youtube watching anti-SJW videos sometime and you'll get an eye full of the stuff) but I spare everyone for brevity.
What I'm saying is, maybe if ya'all would stop buddying up with the racists us lefties would stop callin' ya racists. Your words don't matter, your actions do.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Similarly, project engineers are called PEs where I work, but no one there mistakes that title for a certified Professional Engineer that is required to sign off on something like a multi-hundred-million dollar satellite design. We have those kinds of engineers too, and the difference is made crystal clear when it actually matters.
I'm a software engineer, and I've been paid to perform as such by legitimate companies for more than 30 years. Hence, the term "professional engineer" is wholly accurate in describing me, although I wouldn't use that as a title. Having said that, the guy's not a traffic engineer and it seems like his use of the term "engineer" was intended as an unnecessary appeal to authority in an otherwise solid argument.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
What? I can't hear you?!?
Similar laws in Florida for nursing and doctors: you can't say you're one unless you hold the license for the sake of public safety. There's a discussion going on right now for the growing number of DNPs (Doctor of Nursing Practice) who can say "I'm Dr. Ratchet!" but will it mislead patients in making decisions regarding their care.
So should you be licensed before you say you're an engineer and build something that will fail? Would it put the public at risk?
Chewbacon
The Bible is like Wikipedia: written by a bunch of people and verifiable by questionable sources.
This case was one of the reasons why I voted for Gary Johnson in 2016.
Death to all fascists. I'm sick of all these authoritarian pieces of shit ruining our society. Euthanizing them all would be self-defense for society and a necessary evil to re-instate freedom for the rest of us.
what did the railroads do in oregon?? as engineer in an rail job
It's just Oregon trying to out douchebag California. The are locked in a all out battle for true dominance in the field of douchebaggery and heir to the title Douchebag Capital of the Universe.
infringing on muh right to build unsafe bridges. freedom of speech!
How many here swore up and down that the higher courts would end up ruling against Jarlstrom when I pointed out that he wasn't technically in violation of the law in question? And more than a handful of them questioned my (legally sound) logic...
Fast-forward to now and, not only did the court rule that he was not in violation of any law; they ruled that the law in question, as written, was unconstitutional and ordered that it be rewritten.
One day the lot of you will learn to listen when I'm not trolling -- and I do attempt to make it fairly obvious when I am, in fact trolling. Like right now. Go ahead, take the bait.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
>Though "professional engineer" and 'registered professional engineer" are still regulated
Screw that. My job grade is "Principle Engineer", commonly called PE. Engineering is certainly my profession. I'm a professional engineer. If the state wants to make it illegal to claim a state certification that you don't actually have, then do that. So limit it to "Oregon state registered engineer". Anything more general is legit.
I have a Juris Doctorate and occasionally work on medical devices. Therefore, can I call myself a medical doctor? I think not - the terms used together have a specific meaning that is greater than the individual words. Similarly, professional engineer means something specific beyond "I'm an engineer, and I'm a professional".
You could do a lot more to "the Boards", aka: "Government" after you learn and begin applying more concepts that you were born with and let yourself be tricked out of...
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=larken+rose
Hey Smarty McPants, why don't you start helping people learn about all the other natural rights they got snookered out of...
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=larken+rose
My job grade is "Principle Engineer"
No, it's not.
The abutments connected to the something. The something's connected to the piling. The piling's connected to my wrist watch... Uh oh.
PA: Engineer Riviera, Engineer Nick Riviera. Please report to the scene of the bridge collapse immediately!
The scene of the bridge collapse? I'm so sick of that place!
The State, a false King over you, can only restrict it's purview, therefore, you can in fact call yourself a "Registered Professional Engineer" so long as the following apply...
Engineer - Call yourself one, you can tie shoes, let others worry about how well.
Professional - Now you are in the business of tying shoes.
Registered - Register your announcement as such on whatever blockchain, newspaper, or tree carving you wish.
It's all bullshit laws.
Humans have always known how to evaluate others.
And if you're too dumb young or elderly to do that, then you shouldn't be doing it, appoint someone else.
Look at all the things you let be taken from you because you failed to evaluate...
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=larken+rose
Start taking them back.
Take your FREEDOM back!!!
Finally, Animotion can play Portland again.
Most laws of this type are promulgated by professional societies to limit competition under the color of protecting the public.
You have no idea what "free speech" means. Hint: it does not mean you get to force companies to publish your ignorant bullshit at their cost.
The left is nothing if not self unaware. Anonymous coward using someone else to "publish their ignorant bullshit at their cost."
Just FYI, if you are a head engineer, you are probably a Principal Engineer.
A Principle Engineer would design maxims, precepts - principles.
Of course that was probably just autocorrect.
Probably called them the proper name: Train driver.
I drive trains. Model Trains. I'm an engineer, muthafucka!!!
I was stopped by a cop in Portland, OR for running a red light. I thought I could make it through the yellow, but the light turned red while I was in the intersection. The nice cop let me off with a warning, and informed me of the unique Oregon law... the yellow light means "Stop unless it is unsafe to do so." And that is exactly correct. Completely fucking ludicrous, but that is the law here.
Also, now I know not to piss off Swedish engineers.
I think the thing to take from here is "If you program your traffic lights to bring in more money rather than ease flow of traffic; don't try to deflect with frivolous lawsuits."
the terms used together have a specific meaning that is greater than the individual words.
Sure.
The point here is that Oregon doesn't get to decide what those specific meanings are.
If anyone could make those decisions anyway they wanted we would have a lot of problems and if Oregon got to decide we would all be stuck in lawsuits.
The Oregon Board of Engineers need to be fired for being this incredibly stupid. Maybe Oregon could find new people to be on the board who aren't dicks.
I'm not sure it's hard if the government cannot produce evidence of the event. 6th amendment and all that.
This is why the world needs autistic men.
Who has the obsession to do something like this other than they?
Our legal system is just a self-fulfilling prophecy. You know who wins in this story? Not the guy, not his wife, not the public. Lawyers. Lawyers win, because they cash in on a system where the people involved in this story spent YEARS arguing about this. I get that it's the principle, and the fact that the law was stupid and ultimately ruled unconstitutional. But WTF is the POINT of it all?
Our laws are written to be abused, then contested, then reworded and amended. Our society is not better off for them, it simply causes us to chase our tails at every turn, and the 'rule of law' become more and more of a joke. All the while, lawyers are cashing in on a system that they built, and it will forever need 'tuning' which can only be done by more lawyers.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
what about punishment/ firing/ garnishing of wages for those Oregon bureaucrats/ police/ DA who sued this engineer and took his case to various courts. Can we please take action against them and take their wealth so that such folks will be careful before taking up frivolous lawsuits?
but I play one on TV.
/* No Comment */
Automation of law enforcement seems wrong in the first place.
There is, sadly, no punishment for legislators who pass unconstitutional laws. An aware, ethical electorate would vote them out of office. As that would require an aware, ethical electorate, there is no punishment for legislators who pass unconstitutional laws.
Regardless if he was a licensed PE, a practicing engineer or a fry cook, if his measurements and conclusions were valid and repeatable, his voice should be heard. It's highly likely the only reason he was using his "Engineer" title was to lend credence to his fact finding and problem solving skills. I.E. to get the attention of dismissive bureaucrats.
~Any apparent grammatical or typographic errors are caused by defects in your display device.
So bite me, Oregon.
In NH I had to change my corporate identity when I moved there from Michigan because the word "Engineering" was in the company name, and NH said I needed an electrical (not electronic) power engineer or civil engineer / architect to be in the leadership of the company. A Computer Science / Electronics engineer didn't qualify.
- Tjp
I am in wallow with my inner money grubbing capitalistic pig. ... Oink!
"Jarlstrom, an electrical engineer, spent months researching the specifics of yellow light timing and red light cameras, and learned that his wife had likely been ticketed for running a yellow light." It's worth noting that in Oregon it is illegal to run a yellow light if you could have stopped safely (but that apparently is not the offense she was charged with). They could give her a valid ticket for running a yellow light, if they could show that she should have stopped safely.
So you operate an engine? Oh wait, we know who you are, an idiot.