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Oregon Unconstitutionally Fined a Man $500 for Saying 'I am an Engineer,' Federal Judge Rules (vice.com)
A federal district court has ruled that the state of Oregon illegally infringed on a man's First Amendment rights for fining him $500 because he wrote "I am an engineer" in a 2014 email to the state's Engineering Board. The court ruled that the provision in the law he broke is unconstitutional, which opens the door for people in the state to legally call themselves "engineers." Motherboard reports: This dystopian saga dates back to 2013, when Mats Jarlstrom's wife, while driving, was caught by a red light camera near their home in Beaverton, Oregon. Rather than pay the red light camera fine, Jarlstrom, an electrical engineer, spent months researching the specifics of yellow light timing and red light cameras, and learned that his wife had likely been ticketed for running a yellow light. Jarlstrom began sharing his findings on his personal website, at conferences, and even got featured on 60 Minutes. He also wrote several emails to the Oregon Board of Engineers explaining what he had found. In the email, he noted that he was an "engineer."
Rather than looking into whether traffic light timing should be changed, however, the board sent Jarlstrom a warning -- and then a $500 fine for the crime of "practicing engineering without being registered." Jarlstrom had violated one of Oregon's "Title Laws," which states that "no persons may ... hold themselves out as an 'engineer'" unless they are an "individual who is registered in this state and holds a valid certificate to practice engineering in this state." Jarlstrom has a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering and spent his career working in electronics, but wasn't board certified. He sued the state's engineering board and, last week, a U.S. District Court judge for the District of Oregon ruled that the state's law is unconstitutional. The judge wrote: "The statutes prohibit truthfully describing oneself as an 'engineer,' in any context. This restriction clearly controls and suppresses protected speech, and enforcement of the statute against protected speech is not a hypothetical threat. The term 'engineer,' standing alone, is neither actually nor inherently misleading. Courts have long recognized that the term 'engineer' has a generic meaning separate from 'professional engineer' and that the term has enjoyed 'widespread usage in job titles in our society to describe positions which require no professional training.'"
"The judge ordered that the word 'engineer' be struck from Oregon's law, which is 'substantially overbroad in violation of the First Amendment' and specifically noted that Jarlstrom may describe himself publicly and privately using the word 'engineer' and that he may continue to talk about traffic light timing publicly," reports Motherboard.
Rather than looking into whether traffic light timing should be changed, however, the board sent Jarlstrom a warning -- and then a $500 fine for the crime of "practicing engineering without being registered." Jarlstrom had violated one of Oregon's "Title Laws," which states that "no persons may ... hold themselves out as an 'engineer'" unless they are an "individual who is registered in this state and holds a valid certificate to practice engineering in this state." Jarlstrom has a bachelor's degree in electrical engineering and spent his career working in electronics, but wasn't board certified. He sued the state's engineering board and, last week, a U.S. District Court judge for the District of Oregon ruled that the state's law is unconstitutional. The judge wrote: "The statutes prohibit truthfully describing oneself as an 'engineer,' in any context. This restriction clearly controls and suppresses protected speech, and enforcement of the statute against protected speech is not a hypothetical threat. The term 'engineer,' standing alone, is neither actually nor inherently misleading. Courts have long recognized that the term 'engineer' has a generic meaning separate from 'professional engineer' and that the term has enjoyed 'widespread usage in job titles in our society to describe positions which require no professional training.'"
"The judge ordered that the word 'engineer' be struck from Oregon's law, which is 'substantially overbroad in violation of the First Amendment' and specifically noted that Jarlstrom may describe himself publicly and privately using the word 'engineer' and that he may continue to talk about traffic light timing publicly," reports Motherboard.
so $500 refund - 25K legal fees = big loss for him
Oregon Fines Man For Writing a Complaint Email Stating 'I Am An Engineer'
Portland refers to their trash collectors as "sanitation engineers".
Why is that allowed, exactly? Care to explain?
That's nothing, the guy at Subway who made my sandwich had the balls to call himself an "artist".
Minesweeper Certified Solitaire Engineer.
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
This used to be a protected title, so be gone with all protections of titles.
Just address me as:
"Your Royal Highness, Dr. Admiral Anne Nonymous Esquire"
My Doctorate is in theoretical doctoring
I am admiral of the floaty mcpoolface navy
I am queen of my castle.
I *am* a lawyer
I disagree that it's a loss for him... trust me... I'm an engineer
As a fellow engineer, but not a "professional engineer", I'll happily donate to his legal campaign, and I'll definitely give him an interview if his resume ever comes across my desk.
There should be a distinction between "Engineer" and "Licensed Professional Engineer (in Oregon)." Just like someone licensed to practice medicine in New York can claim to be a physician, but can't practice legally in Oregon.
He'll get legal fees and maybe more.
Because the judge ruled that the man's constitutional rights were infringed (the whole 1st amendment thing), the loser will almost certainly have to pay the man's legal fees. The man might be able to sue for other damages as well. I'm sure the news and intrawebs will be full of answers to this question soon.
Maybe we'll even see TV ads from lawyers that say, "Have you been fined for calling yourself an engineer? You may be entitled to a large cash award. Call 1-800-SUE-4MNY".
Violation of the constitution gives him the right to sue the board ... hope he fucks them without lube.
My old MMD / QMED card has Junior Engineer as one of my endorsements. I worked with and for Licensed Engineers. Most PE's could not even qualify to take the exams needed to become Licensed Engineers.
Passionately Indifferent
I thought the court would hold that the state may prohibit using the title "engineer" commercially, to solicit business, but could not prohibit calling oneself an engineer in other contexts. In fact, the court ruled much more broadly. The ruling is that title laws in general are questionable, and must be narrowly tailored. (Though "professional engineer" and 'registered professional engineer" are still regulated).
Quoting here the part of the ruling that I found most interesting and surprising:
---
The Title laws restrict constitutionally protected speech. While the Court need not reach the question of whether the Title laws are invalid in every application, the Title laws prohibit a substantial amount of protected speech. The record demonstrates that the threat to free expression is not merely hypothetical. Therefore, "from the text of [the law] and from actual fact," the Court holds that the Title laws are substantially overbroad in violation of the First
Amendment. Virginia v. Hicks, 539 U.S. 113, 122 (2003)
---
https://ij.org/wp-content/uplo...
engineer
noun
1. a person who designs, builds, or maintains engines, machines, or public works.
verb
1. design and build (a machine or structure).
Politics; n. : A religion whereby man is god.
This guy sort of sounds like the type who would go to the ends of the earth to prove his point if he feels he's right. People like him are often the catalyst for change. Good for him.
Also, now I know not to piss off Swedish engineers.
Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
can he also add in his red light ticket fine as well? or does he now have the right to fight it in court may be hard if the video is long gone.
Then the State of Oregon is free to rewrite its statute to reflect the sort of engineering that requires a PE in order to get one's stamp with regard to the use of the term, which would probably be limited to the senior person in a firm that designs complicated structures or systems and signs off on the soundness of those structures or systems. They shouldn't have the right to restrict criticism of those structures or systems, or of less complicated systems not requiring a PE's stamp to build and implement in the first place.
The man did not overstep any authority by criticizing a system that malfunctions, and he described himself as an engineer in the course of actually documenting/supporting his work. It wasn't like his criticism was limited to, "This system is broken. I'm an engineer. You need to take my word for it."
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
There is a lot of research that says the lights with cameras have the yellow light time a lot shorter than other lights, in order to maximize revenue. They should really replace the yellow light with a countdown timer before they can make people pay for entering the intersection a second after the light turns red! And yes, I've gotten caught be one of these in Tualitin myself, as I was hurrying to complete my right turn before the light went red.
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
Maybe we'll even see TV ads from lawyers that say, "Have you been fined for calling yourself an engineer? You may be entitled to a large cash award.
Nah, there is no pain or suffering involved and there are no medical bills to pad with bogus "physical therapy". No lawyer would take this case on contigency.
Get a friend in the next building to give you their WiFi password! ;-)
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
he was able to prove tickets were being written for those who legally pass through the lights. This means the city was going to lose money and the camera company was going to lose money too if changes were made. They had to do what they could to discredit and shut him up. It did not work.
Oregon is a budding fascist state.
The fucking mayor of Portland is best buds with Antifa. He actually thanked them for their "protests".
so $500 refund - 25K legal fees = big loss for him
He'll probably get legal fees back plus punitive damages.
They were involved in attempting to deprive him of first amendment free speech rights under color of statute, A violation of 42 U.S. Code 1983 - Civil action for deprivation of rights -
Every person who, under color of any statute, ordinance, regulation, custom, or usage, of any State or Territory or the District of Columbia, subjects, or causes to be subjected, any citizen of the United States or other person within the jurisdiction thereof to the deprivation of any rights, privileges, or immunities secured by the Constitution and laws, shall be liable to the party injured in an action at law, suit in equity, or other proper proceeding for redress
Civil Rights Attorney's Fees Awards Act of 1976 provides attorney's fees for:
"any action or proceeding to enforce a provision of sections 1981, 1981a, 1982, 1983, 1985, and 1986 of this title, title IX of Public Law 92–318 [20 U.S.C. 1681 et seq.], the Religious Freedom Restoration Act of 1993 [42 U.S.C. 2000bb et seq.], the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act of 2000 [42 U.S.C. 2000cc et seq.], title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 [42 U.S.C. 2000d et seq.], or section 12361 of title 34"
"Maybe we'll even see TV ads from lawyers that say, 'Have you been fined for calling yourself an engineer?...'"
ITYM from hucksters calling themselves lawyers.
"National Security is the chief cause of national insecurity." - Celine's First Law
The judge likely wanted to be a bit more comprehensive since he could see that the board was quite willing to abuse any hint of a technicality.
Can he sue the board for using the law as written? Surely the people at fault are the lawmakers who made an unconstitutional law... But even then, wouldn't they just claim that they acted in good faith?
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
>Though "professional engineer" and 'registered professional engineer" are still regulated
Screw that. My job grade is "Principle Engineer", commonly called PE. Engineering is certainly my profession. I'm a professional engineer.
If the state wants to make it illegal to claim a state certification that you don't actually have, then do that. So limit it to "Oregon state registered engineer". Anything more general is legit.
I should use this sig to advertise my book ISBN-13 : 978-1501515132.
Oh sure, like EVERYONE has a Friend! Elitist snob.
Unless they didn't -- he was singled out for abuse because he attacked the state's source of revenue (red-light pig-cameras).
I wonder if we will get the same pseudo-science wooo-tastic crap we get in medicine.
I am a doctor**. Trust me and buy my hydrogen peroxide for your anus. Remember, if it hurt it works.
**not licensed in any state but I paid $15 from a website that gave me a doctorate in hydrogen nutritional supplement.
"I am a engineer*. Trust me and buy my enterprise vaporware bridge.
*not certified professional but I did beat that mobile game called bridge construction on my phone.
Who am I kidding we have that already.
... fighting the battle that only people who pass the PE exam are allowed to call themselves an '"engineer". The title has become so diluted over the years that continuing to come after people for describing their occupation using the "E" word is nothing less than ridiculous.
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
Have gnu, will travel.
Something that keeps getting left out of the coverage of this case, esp to tech communities, is that they guy kept referring to himself as an engineer in correspondences with the board of engineers and its staff, after repeatedly being asked not to (and at one point even agreeing, but then starting up again).... so he was REALLY blurring the lines between simply calling himself an engineer an 'practicing' in that he was using his title to sound authoritative to people who professionally interact with licensed people.
There should be a distinction between "Engineer" and "Licensed Professional Engineer (in Oregon)." Just like someone licensed to practice medicine in New York can claim to be a physician, but can't practice legally in Oregon.
There should also be a distinction between calling yourself a Licensed Professional Engineer (in Oregon) for the purposes of getting business as an engineer and for the purposes of, say, impressing a girl you meet at a party. In the present case, the man was not offering his services for hire, nor appearing as an expert witness at a trial, so it really isn't clear why he shouldn't be allowed to lie even about more specific qualifications.
If I can be modded down for being a troll, can I be modded up for being an orc, or a balrog?
The man did not overstep any authority by criticizing a system that malfunctions,
There was no question on that. Of course not.
and he described himself as an engineer in the course of actually documenting/supporting his work.
The clear intent of his use of the term was to impart special importance and credibility to his statements because he is "an engineer" and thus has more knowledge about such technical stuff than normal folks do. I don't think there is any question as to his intent in calling himself an engineer. Had his being an engineer been irrelevant to him and the issue at hand he would have not said it in the first place.
But that's not dealing with the issue the court dealt with. I have long questioned the ability of the state to keep people from claiming to be an engineer, since a lot of people work in jobs with that specific title while not requiring any certifications from the state.
O'Cedar MaxiClean Commercial Upright or Rubbermaid® Jumbo Smooth Sweep Angle?
Yeah... Proving that could be hard. Can get get discovery, get their internal emails etc?
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
If you work on any software for Google, Facebook or Twitter then, you are automatically a software engineer.
Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
In a weird way, 'engineer' is a good example of what happens when you fail to protect your words carefully enough. The usage of the word has exploded over the last century, it used to be much narrower and much more regulated, but then all sorts of professions wanted to call themselves 'engineer' too because it sounded cool.. and today disciplines that have called themselves that for hundreds of years and enjoyed government/guild protection are increasingly having to confront they have LONG lost control of the word.
Mr. Simpson, don't you worry. I watched Matlock in a bar last night. The sound wasn't on, but I think I got the gist of it.
The man did not overstep any authority by criticizing a system that malfunctions,
There was no question on that. Of course not.
and he described himself as an engineer in the course of actually documenting/supporting his work.
The clear intent of his use of the term was to impart special importance and credibility to his statements because he is "an engineer" and thus has more knowledge about such technical stuff than normal folks do. I don't think there is any question as to his intent in calling himself an engineer. Had his being an engineer been irrelevant to him and the issue at hand he would have not said it in the first place.
But that's not dealing with the issue the court dealt with. I have long questioned the ability of the state to keep people from claiming to be an engineer, since a lot of people work in jobs with that specific title while not requiring any certifications from the state.
Ahhh. But he did not say "Trust me, I am a Traffic Safety Engineer," did he? He did the equivalent of saying "You can call me Dr Jittles". Which would just imply that I have some sort of doctorate and am therefore possibly more educated than most people. (and no, I am not a doctor of any kind). But if I said "I am Jittles, Medical Doctor" then I would be claiming that I have specific type of education and knowledge of medicine. Those are two different things. He's merely trying to say that he feels that he analyzed this problem with the same sort of rigor than an engineer should use. It's kind of an asshole move. It's like calling tech support and saying "I am a software developer, I know what I am doing." That may or may not actually be the case, but you sound like a douche regardless of whether you are competent or not.
But he was in fact a practicing engineer, which is why TFS refers to a "truthful" description being criminalized. He wasn't a "professional engineer", but I've yet to find any reference to him calling himself that.
As far as "sounding" authoritative, he *is* in fact an authority in as far as electrical systems go, versus being a layman.
Full disclosure: engineer, not PE, but EU dipl. eng., which is protected there but not in the US.
What is the average weight of a urinal cake? Is the urinal cake flammable?
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
The only "slimy" people were the people setting up the red light cameras with too-short yellow-light intervals, thus maximizing the possibility of extracting a fine from innocent drivers, as well as increasing the risk of a rear-end accident. In a just world, they'd be flogged to death in public.
I think he was also the equivalent of a licensed PE in Sweden.
It is not uncommon for certification boards to require that requirements be met (experience, testing, education) before people can lay claim to a title.
In Oregon's case they used too generic of a label, engineer when they should have specified "State certified engineer" or "Certified Traffic Engineer".
This will get pretty muddy when it moves to a higher court and all of the independent certification groups approach the court with amicus briefs supporting their ability to certify trained people to perform certain jobs.
He clearly was attempting to act as an expert witness.
- In Soviet Korea, only old people loose all their bases to Natalie Portman's petrified hot grits overlords.
He is an engineer, and the court broke the government's neck for having the temerity to fine someone who dared talk to them, the government, which is in violation of the First Amendment.
The people do not have to dance the government's self-defined fine line when discussing things.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
He was clearly a citizen talking to those in power, who are not allowed to dissuade him from doing so with punishment.
Doing engineering may require a PE, but talking to government about policies does not, and cannot.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
Maybe all the schools should rename the faculties if they are not turning out engineers.
Very little of that work is software engineering. Try embedded software with liability and multiple releases with updates, to learn the difference.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
On the other hand, I do think that anyone who casually calls him/herself a software engineer should be questioned aggressively, as I find people who adopt that title have nowhere near the concern and care for the performance of their designs that a real engineer should...
Software engineering is the process of producing software. It is 't programming.
Do you use Lint type stuff? At what point? Do you do diff deltas in all checkins with code reviews?
Do you have mechanical processes to minimize goofs, like diffing spec updates and not just relying on revision histories?
These are just a handful of things to consider when producing software. It has nothing to do with direct coding.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
You are completely off base.
This guy is a graduate from KTH, the one of the two highest ranked technical institutions in Sweden, the second being Chalmers. His education is not one iota different from the people who are building radar systems, mobile phone systems, fighter jets etc.
HE IS AN ENGINEER! He's not fudging anything. He's not a certified PE in Oregon, but that a) doesn't make one not an Engineer and b) he never claimed to be anything such. The ones "fudging" stuff are the bureaucrats in Oregon who lied about him claiming the PE title.
Get your head out of your ass.
He already is an engineer, just not licensed in OR.
The board was completely wrong on this very spiteful ruling.
Pretty sure they just didn't like to be shown up by an outsider.
I've seen this mentality in many public servant professionals;
school administrators are the worst offenders, though.
Anyway, this is a good, common sense ruling - a rare sight in this day and age!
CAP === 'pothole'
You are right, but wrong when the person is talking to government about governance. That maintains the highest of free speech protection.
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
I am an engineer* for reals, this isn't really a relevant problem. There is something called a Professional Engineer, there is a process for obtaining this license . There are places where it is mandatory. One should not represent that he has this license if he does not have it, that is clearly fraud. If one is in a position where he absolutely needs a licensed Professional Engineer, one should also check that the person speaking has one, the board will happily oblige inquiry. If he does not, he may be well educated and informative, but can't make the final decision. However, his input is not necessarily invalid. Some civil servant who didn't want his 9-5 disrupted because some unlicensed engineer documented facts that happened to piss on his wheaties does not get to ignore the problem and file a lawsuit, I would argue he should lose his license for clearly unprofessional behavior.
However, saying "I am an engineer" does not confer this, and having PEs lay claim to the title when the vast majority of us engineers* do not want the license is disingenuous at best. Most engineers* are fully competent in their fields, or they do not last very long. Most engineers* do not even consider a PE license at any point in their careers. Unlike that website I linked, it has absolutely 0 value outside of a few limited areas, and has absolutely 0 impact on your career path except in narrow circumstances where you work in a business where a PE might be a requirement. The NSPE may wish it were not so, but the licensed PE has a few very onerous limitations with it, and sensible people avoid it like the plague.
* people in possession of university degrees in engineering disciplines such as mechanical, electrical, chemical, software, civil engineering, who are practicing in those fields for money as their means of income
Wow. Listen to that thunderous "woosh!"
-- sigs cause cancer.
About 112grams.
And, yes. If you add enough accelerant to get it hot enough.
Or do you think "Pilots" need an Oregonian licence to call themselves "Pilots"?
Fun fact. Until July of 2017 Oregon was one of the states that did require aircraft pilots to register with the state and pay an annual fee for the privilege of being a pilot.
The guy is a legitimate Engineer.
You might want to figure out the difference between a proper noun and a run of the mill regular old noun before you start capitalizing words at random.
You are implicitly lying and guilty of libel when you say he's "acting like an engineer",
That's the first time I've heard "acting like an engineer" used in a pejorative manner. which is what it would need to be to be slander or libel. Also, the truth is an affirmative defense against charges of libel, and he in truth was acting like an engineer.
I am a doctor**. Trust me and buy my hydrogen peroxide for your anus. Remember, if it hurt it works. **not licensed in any state but I paid $15 from a website that gave me a doctorate in hydrogen nutritional supplement.
Dude! What ads are you looking at?
Similarly, project engineers are called PEs where I work, but no one there mistakes that title for a certified Professional Engineer that is required to sign off on something like a multi-hundred-million dollar satellite design. We have those kinds of engineers too, and the difference is made crystal clear when it actually matters.
I'm a software engineer, and I've been paid to perform as such by legitimate companies for more than 30 years. Hence, the term "professional engineer" is wholly accurate in describing me, although I wouldn't use that as a title. Having said that, the guy's not a traffic engineer and it seems like his use of the term "engineer" was intended as an unnecessary appeal to authority in an otherwise solid argument.
Please stand clear of the doors, por favor mantenganse alejado de las puertas
woosh!
Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
Similar laws in Florida for nursing and doctors: you can't say you're one unless you hold the license for the sake of public safety. There's a discussion going on right now for the growing number of DNPs (Doctor of Nursing Practice) who can say "I'm Dr. Ratchet!" but will it mislead patients in making decisions regarding their care.
So should you be licensed before you say you're an engineer and build something that will fail? Would it put the public at risk?
Chewbacon
The Bible is like Wikipedia: written by a bunch of people and verifiable by questionable sources.
>"but being conservative means "opposed to change". "
That is ONE definition of conservative. Others might be "being cautious" with change or "sticking to the Constitution" or "opposing change that reduces freedom". Example- we have RUNAWAY spending and a MASSIVE debt. A conservative would typically want to rework that existing system to reduce the debt and deficit. That obviously requires change.
>"In America the people we call conservative aren't. They're in favor of sweeping changes to social order. "
? You pretty much described liberals, at least how they are now. They typically seem to want sweeping changes that control people's lives- taking and giving them money, telling them what they can or can't say or do. Conservatives typically want LESS government intervention in people's lives, smaller government, less centralized-government, fewer laws, less spending. Things have moved so far left in the last 50 years that any move back towards fiscal and personal responsibility does amount to change.
>"What I'm saying is, maybe if ya'all would stop buddying up with the racists us lefties would stop callin' ya racists. Your words don't matter, your actions do."
That is a cop out. There are bad/extreme people who are attracted to a conservative platform (as there are on the liberal platform) but for the wrong reasons or with warped perspectives. I have seen PLENTY of condemnation of racism by high profile conservatives. Plus there are different TYPES of conservatives. Lumping them all together isn't any more fair than lumping Communists in with liberals.
>"Your words don't matter, your actions do."
If that were true, then "the left" would immediately condemn things like affirmative action- whose WORDS claim one thing like "equality" and "fairness", but actions end up being absolutely racist by forcing discrimination based on race. Or whose words defend things like "free speech" and whose actions support banning speech they think is "offensive". Or whose words say they support "freedom of religion" but whose actions try to force people to do things against their own religious views. Or whose words claim they support the Constitution, personal freedom, and safety but whose actions enact tons of increasingly draconian "gun control" laws that do nothing to stop bad people yet restrict good people in very bad ways, which INCREASES crime (as proven in dozens of high profile studies).
Funny how the people (Antifa) who violently oppose a person (Trump) who is a massive supporter of Israel and surrounded by Jews, are calling other people "Nazis."
supernintendo chalmers?
Damn, now THAT deserves a BSJE, stat!
Browsing at +1 - no ACs, I ignore their posts. So refreshing!
Your analogy isn't relevant because he wasn't claiming experience he didn't have - It's more like an out-of-state doctor stating he's a medical doctor (but no more) in a state when he's not licensed to practice, and when asked on what basis he's making a medical argument.
Considering the board asked him to stop calling himself an "engineer", it's pretty clear they knew he wasn't an PE and he knew they knew he wasn't, but yet he still he persisted in calling himself an engineer. Given both sides knew the state of affairs clearly, I'm puzzled by where you see fudging going on.
On what basis do you accuse him of malicious intent?
Yes... nice job following along with the class. The mask wearing thugs disrupting civil society with violence and hysteria are fascists and the people wearing red hats that you fascists hate so much are just good ol fashioned Americans.
The board asked him to stop because he kept messaging different people within the organization. So people tracking his pattern of behavior knew, but individuals he kept presenting himself as an engineer to did not.
I do not really think his intent was malicious, but he was trying to contact as many people as possible using his 'sounds like a credential but isn't' title in the hopes that someone would take him seriously. In short, when he did not get the respect he thought he deserved, he kept trying using ambiguous credentials to see if someone would acknowledge him. Which is why he has become such a poster child to those who feel slighted when professions do not take them as one of them.
In Oregon all construction contractors (and home inspectors, and locksmiths) have a license, and must display the license number on their work vehicles and in advertising. There's a contractor website that lets you search by their license number to verify they're current, that there's no history of complaints, and that they're bonded/insured. They get to hold themselves as "Oregon Certified" in their craft, and of course, are penalized for operating a business without said license. It sounds like the way the law was written for engineers was different than contractors.
but they were't experts they were government apparatchiks
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
I'm sure the USAF would be thrilled for instance.
USAF pilots do not hold FAA pilot certificates as such (although they may have one), and thus were not covered by the Oregon law.
Let me translate that: "I have no argument so I'm going to veer off into some utterly irrelevant grammar-nazism,
You, as well, need to learn the difference between a proper noun and a regular noun. I'll give you a hint: "Engineer" is a title as a proper noun (similar to "President"), while "engineer" is not. It's called "language" and it is how people communicate.
They were staffers he was trying to trick into believing he was someone with legal weight behind his title.
If he had tried to do the same thing to the judge, the person would have come down pretty hard on him. Judges take personation of a BAR certified lawyer very seriously. But since he was only upsetting engineers, the judge didn't care.
what did the railroads do in oregon?? as engineer in an rail job
Think of the intent this way. He was being ignored. He didn't like being ignored, so he kept contacting people. In that department, 'engineer' caries a specific legal weight were ignoring them CAN result in liability, their title actually means something legally distinct. So he capitalized on that professional caution to keep getting people's attention.
A better analogy might be like he was calling various military offices claiming to be 'captain someone', and every time they found out that he did not mean 'captain in their military' they hung up, so he called someone else claiming to be 'captain someone'. Maybe he was a captain in another nation's army, maybe he a captain of a pleasure ship, maybe he was a captain in his own private militia, what he was isn't actually important... what matters was that he knows full well he isn't a captain in the US Army but is hoping that people who are accustomed to patching officers through will not realize that.. and then got away with it since he never _techically_ said he was a US Army Captain.
Not malicious, but shady and self centered as hell.
If they're going to bother you about calling yourself a software engineer, just call yourself a software architect instead.
But please don't try to drive a train. It's harder than it looks.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
So to you the AntiFa are the fascists, and the openly racist and bigoted MAGA-hat wearers waving their Nazi and Confederate flags are the good guy and the real "patriots". Go fuck yourself you anti-American piece of shit
No middle ground between the two eh? It's easy to spot the extremists, they only see in black and white with no gray. AntiFa are very much thugs and should be more seriously hunted because they actually attack people. There is a huge difference between peacefully marching, even for a cause one disagrees with such as Nazis, and attacking people. The political process can deal with Nazis as they never have much support in this country. However the method of attacking people you disagree with opens a *much* more dangerous can of worms. This is obvious quite honestly - I'm always amazed at anyone who doesn't denounce AntiFa and anyone else who practices political violence on principle.
How many here swore up and down that the higher courts would end up ruling against Jarlstrom when I pointed out that he wasn't technically in violation of the law in question? And more than a handful of them questioned my (legally sound) logic...
Fast-forward to now and, not only did the court rule that he was not in violation of any law; they ruled that the law in question, as written, was unconstitutional and ordered that it be rewritten.
One day the lot of you will learn to listen when I'm not trolling -- and I do attempt to make it fairly obvious when I am, in fact trolling. Like right now. Go ahead, take the bait.
APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
There should be a distinction between "Engineer" and "Licensed Professional Engineer (in Oregon)." Just like someone licensed to practice medicine in New York can claim to be a physician, but can't practice legally in Oregon.
That's effectively what the ruling did:
Therefore, there is an easy fix to this First Amendment problem: strike the word “engineer” from Or. Rev. Stat. 672.002(2) and Or. Rev. Stat. 672.007(1)(b). Plaintiff invites this remedy by focusing his challenge on the Title laws’ use of the word “engineer.” (Pl.’s Mot. Summ. J. at 27.) Accordingly, the term “engineer” should be stricken from these subsections, leaving the remainder of the Act intact: Or. Rev. Stat. 672.002(2) (“**Engineer**, ‘professional engineer’ or ‘registered professional engineer’ means an individual who is registered in this state and holds a valid certificate to practice engineering in this state as provided under ORS 672.002 to 672.325.”); Or. Rev. Stat. 672.007(1)(b) (“A person is practicing or offering to practice engineering if the person . . . [t]hrough the use of some other title implies that the person is **an engineer or** a registered professional engineer[.]).
(asterisks used in place of strikethrough, since Slashdot doesn't allow that).
Anyone can freely call themselves an engineer in Oregon. They just can't call themselves a PE unless licensed.
>Though "professional engineer" and 'registered professional engineer" are still regulated
Screw that. My job grade is "Principle Engineer", commonly called PE. Engineering is certainly my profession. I'm a professional engineer. If the state wants to make it illegal to claim a state certification that you don't actually have, then do that. So limit it to "Oregon state registered engineer". Anything more general is legit.
I have a Juris Doctorate and occasionally work on medical devices. Therefore, can I call myself a medical doctor? I think not - the terms used together have a specific meaning that is greater than the individual words. Similarly, professional engineer means something specific beyond "I'm an engineer, and I'm a professional".
>"Conservatives are not actually concerned with the runaway spending or massive debt, as noted by observing their own spending tendencies, which focus entirely on their own preferences, which does not include controlling the debt."
Wrong. *Republicans* are not that concerned with runaway spending or massive debt. Why? Because they aren't all that conservative in that way anymore. Which is a good example of why I keep saying the two party system is a failure.
>"They also don't mind reducing freedom, as their insistence on controlling minorities and immigrants and the poor on welfare shows,"
That doesn't make any sense. Conservatives don't "control" minorities, immigrants, and the poor. What are you even trying to say?
>"there is a reason they can't stand drug legalization."
Again, that is a Republican thing, not a conservative thing. As an example, Libertarians are conservative, and they have little interest in a drug war. True conservatives diminish the power and control of government.
>"[blah blah religious far right, blah blah Trump, blah blah what I think is racist talk is not free speech, blah blah cakes, blah blah I deny all the studies ]"
No desire to continue... Besides, time for bed!
I've studied and operated as a professional computer scientist and electronics engineer with a degree and dozens of certifications (generic and vendor specific) for decades.
Today is the first time I've heard of the term "Professional Engineer" or even PE. I've never heard of a "Government board certified professional engineer"
The reason for this is that I've only worked in engineering professions where degrees are issued by universities based on performance in school and also in positions where the industry regulates based on their own trust system.
I just read the link at NSPE.org that you provided and after reading it, unless there was a specific job which required that I wasted time and resources on such a certification, I wouldn't. They sell the thing like a two bit whore. Click the link "Why get licensed?"
I could clearly see the value of this paper as something truly meaningful if your education was a trade skill, like electrician or plumber. After all, these are apprenticeships and there should be some formal process of calling yourself a plumber before an insurance company will back your work. It can't just be that some guy named Joe, a clear educational expert since he has his name on the truck says "He's a plumber".
But for someone that is formally trained and tested over a period of 3-12 years at a university, this type of certification is useless.
NSPE even lists money and prestige as a selling point of their cert.
I think that PE should not be protected either and Professional Engineer also should not be protected. Instead, it should have to clearly state "Oregon State Board Certified Professional Engineer".
After all... as someone that knows nothing about Oregon's politics and whether the board is corrupt or not (and from the web site, it looks fishy... like a fund raising scam) why in the world would I trust someone certified by the state board of Oregon? In fact, other than their web site and news articles about this, I can't find any meaningful reference to the Oregon's state board. This seems suspicious to me.
Most laws of this type are promulgated by professional societies to limit competition under the color of protecting the public.
Just FYI, if you are a head engineer, you are probably a Principal Engineer.
A Principle Engineer would design maxims, precepts - principles.
Of course that was probably just autocorrect.
someone that is formally trained and tested over a period of 3-12 years at a university
..has no demonstrable experience in applying their education.
Engineering is not an academic discipline. Engineering is always and only ever about actually doing things.
Whether the PE certification has value or not (and its equivalent in the UK - Chartered Engineer - has only limited value and applicability) it's very safe to assume that your academic study does not qualify you for a professional engineering job.
Probably called them the proper name: Train driver.
Nah, it's a doddle. Just don't ask about stopping it in time or not tipping over in the corners.
Fun fact. Until July of 2017 Oregon was one of the states that did require aircraft pilots to register with the state and pay an annual fee for the privilege of being a pilot.
So when an airliner overflies Oregon, does it become un-piloted? Or does the entire world's pilots register with Oregon?
I doubt he was upsetting any real engineers, as most Professional Engineers would have backed him. This is just government employees getting upset that some peasant was speaking to them.
He clearly is one.
He's more than qualified to the math involved, he has a degree in engineering from a reputable university, KTH, Sweden. KTH graduates generally go to work for businesses like Ericsson, Saab (fighter jets, missiles, radar systems, submarines and other generally advanced stuff) and Volvo. Are you saying these people aren't engineers, but merely acting? Would a PE licence from Oregon turn them into "real" engineers? Besides he's been working for a long time with timing sensitive equipment, ironically, cameras.
[conservatives defined as] "opposing change that reduces freedom"
Why don't you go the whole hog and just define "conservative" as "better than other people", I mean you did 99% of that, why are you afraid of the last 1%?
The lovely thing is that when you define yourself as better than other people you never need to reconsider your actions. They're always right, by definition.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
Software engineering is the process of producing software. It is 't programming.
Well just about every asshole who hacks shit together that breaks next week as soon as someone takes ownership calls themsleves a software engineer...
It's like people latched onto the software bit and have entirely forgotten about the engineering part.
It has nothing to do with direct coding.
Wait but what about that candidate who is personable, has great taste, natural eye for testing, can actually code but can't invert a binary tree on demand in an interview? Surely a REAL ENGINEER is simply a repository of computer science algorithmic knowledge.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
If you believe that I have some tropical beach front property in North Dakota to sell you. There is ample evidence on YouTube alone of Antifa initiating violence with anyone they disagree with, think they disagree with, or who just happens to be walking by.
They are thugs, they are domestic terrorists and need to be arrested on sight.
That’s also the meaning in most (if not all) of Europe. That’s to prevent drivers from racing when the lights turn yellow.
You can claim to be a "physician" "engineer" or even "licensed professional engineer" to the entire world... but due to all the hypocrisy and bullshit programming you received in government school, religion, and even from your parents and friends... you just haven't realized it yet... Please, for the love of $deity, break your brain free from those chains...
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=larken+rose
Found the Freeman On The Land.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Not questioning his - engineering - abilities, and agreeing with the outcome of the judgement, it is stated that he holds a BSc in Electrical Engineering. I'm pretty sure most official engineering titles (as in "Ir. John Doe") require at least a Master's degree (and more, depending on the country). I'm confident someone with a BSc in EE from a good university should have no trouble pursuing a Master in the same field and beyond.
So, can he call himself an engineer in the generic sense of the term and for argument's sake in the body of his e-mail? I think he can. He's definitely more entitled to do so than all the "Network Engineers" and "Software Engineers" without any studies in Engineering at all.
Can he sign as "Ir. Jarlstrom"? Nope.
This is so fscking stupid. Antifa literally means âoeanti fascistâ. People on each side accuse the other of being controlling fascists without any understanding at all.
I was stopped by a cop in Portland, OR for running a red light. I thought I could make it through the yellow, but the light turned red while I was in the intersection. The nice cop let me off with a warning, and informed me of the unique Oregon law... the yellow light means "Stop unless it is unsafe to do so." And that is exactly correct. Completely fucking ludicrous, but that is the law here.
Well, here in the UK amber (yellow) also means "stop as long as it's safe to do so". You would never actually get prosecuted for going through an amber light, unless you were stopped by the police and actually said "yes, I deliberately drove through an amber light even though it was perfectly safe to stop". In which case they'd probably breathalyse you after they stopped laughing.
To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it
Professional Engineering certification isn't common for computer/electronics engineers as their designs aren't often public safety concerns. PEs are very common and make sense for civil, mechanical, and power distribution engineers. If they screw up a design, it can affect large numbers of people. The reason you get a PE is because you can't get a building permit in most jurisdictions without construction drawings being stamped by a PE. The piece of paper is indeed valuable as without a PE, you're pretty much relegated to being an assistant to a PE in many fields of engineering.
Most state boards of engineering have requirements for obtaining a PE such as passing tests and maintaining continuing education throughout certification. I can't speak to Oregon specifically, but for me, I had to pass a Fundamentals of Engineering exam, work 5 years under a PE, and then pass another Professional Engineering exam in order to get registered as a PE. I now have to complete several continuing education credits every 2 years to renew my license. I do agree that the process costs money and probably more than it should and it doesn't have nearly as much oversight as it probably should. But the big differentiation between a PE and a non PE is that PEs are personally criminally liable for failure of designs they have stamped.
Yes it's an anecdote! Were you expecting original research in a Slashdot comment?
People have the right to openly be racist bigoted MAGA-hat wearers. People also have the right to protest against them. The right they don't have is to violently, physically attack one another. Nor can they make threats of physical violence. Your rights end where they infringe upon the rights of others. Yes, AntiFa is fascist...not being able to tolerate opinions that differ from yours and threatening physical violence because of it is by definition fascism. And just so I'm not being one-sided, that jackass who killed the woman with his car in Charlottesville should fry, but not via a lynch mob.
Just another day in Paradise
Not even adblock can stop the madness.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?...
Our legal system is just a self-fulfilling prophecy. You know who wins in this story? Not the guy, not his wife, not the public. Lawyers. Lawyers win, because they cash in on a system where the people involved in this story spent YEARS arguing about this. I get that it's the principle, and the fact that the law was stupid and ultimately ruled unconstitutional. But WTF is the POINT of it all?
Our laws are written to be abused, then contested, then reworded and amended. Our society is not better off for them, it simply causes us to chase our tails at every turn, and the 'rule of law' become more and more of a joke. All the while, lawyers are cashing in on a system that they built, and it will forever need 'tuning' which can only be done by more lawyers.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
You seem to be taking this to a bit of an extreme. So, for an anecdote, let me tell you that I've held engineering titles since '82. None of them professional, and my first was given to me when I only had five years experience and an associates degree working at a Fortune 500 engineering company. While I wasn't licensed engineer, I did do some electrical design that went into non-critical systems used by the government. Our processes always ensured these things were well reviewed, to meet specs and customer requirements. I didn't go around calling myself an engineer (unless asked my title) until I later finished my CS, and did full lifecycle development. 37 years later, I'm an engineering manager, and not licensed in Oregon. But if I go to Oregon, I would have called myself an engineer in spite of these idiots attempts to appropriate the English language for their own purposes. They can't get away with that crap, and the court rightfully told them so. Now, if I were to claim to be licensed in Oregon, they might have a case against me, but otherwise this is nothing more than some lazy government employees not wanting to be bothered by the fact that their system was FUBAR, and it was rightfully pointed out to them.
Just another day in Paradise
My state has an engineering board they only license disciplines that plan and build stuff like roads, bridges, and buildings. They require that you have a degree and be current on the state codes that apply to your field. I see no problem with this. Fining someone that never claimed to be state certified but did call himself an engineer because he earned an engineering degree is a entirely overboard.
You are demonstrably wrong.
https://www.phillymag.com/news/2018/11/26/philly-antifa-tom-keenan-marine-attack/
It is LITERALLY a component of the definition of fascism.
If you engage in violence to suppress and oppress other people's speech, you are a fucking fascist. Full stop.
I think you might have your history wrong. If you google when the first engineering licenses occurred, the very first entry and it's first sentence state....
A century ago, anyone could work as an engineer without proof of competency.
Just another day in Paradise
The students at one of the places I attended would work with real certified engineers and architects on community outreach projects and actually get a little experience and do a little hard work for the community.
t's kind of an asshole move. It's like calling tech support and saying "I am a software developer, I know what I am doing." That may or may not actually be the case, but you sound like a douche regardless of whether you are competent or not.
Since I was a software developer, I did this on occasion when I didn't want to be bothered by the stupid questions of "did you reboot your computer" or other such checklist nonsense, or if I needed to get to the next tier because I knew that the first level dweebs weren't going to have a clue. The primary intent is for them to realize they're talking with someone who actually knows a bit about the issue. It's like every time I have to call the cable company and they want to run through the checklist of cycling power to my modem when I already checked that myself.
Just another day in Paradise
Fun fact. Until July of 2017 Oregon was one of the states that did require aircraft pilots to register with the state and pay an annual fee for the privilege of being a pilot.
Since only the FAA can regulate that, I'm sure Oregon would have lost any court case had this come up in a dispute. I speak as a licensed private pilot...not that it really matters here.
Just another day in Paradise
You think of the intent that way, but as far as I can tell it's a story you've spun out of thin air. Where's your evidence for any of this?
Here's the letter from the board that initially accused him of violating the law. It clearly states the issue was that he kept using the title in communication with that same board, so clearly the people he contacted already knew he wasn't a PE.
https://www.scribd.com/documen...
You can find links to the rest here. It includes a letter of him writing that he is an "electronics engineer" from Sweden and states why his experience is relevant, but at no point states he's licensed. Show me in these documents where they confuse him for a PE at any point in the conversation.
https://motherboard.vice.com/e...
t's kind of an asshole move. It's like calling tech support and saying "I am a software developer, I know what I am doing." That may or may not actually be the case, but you sound like a douche regardless of whether you are competent or not.
Since I was a software developer, I did this on occasion when I didn't want to be bothered by the stupid questions of "did you reboot your computer" or other such checklist nonsense, or if I needed to get to the next tier because I knew that the first level dweebs weren't going to have a clue. The primary intent is for them to realize they're talking with someone who actually knows a bit about the issue. It's like every time I have to call the cable company and they want to run through the checklist of cycling power to my modem when I already checked that myself.
I know the intent. It frustrates the tech on the other end, though, as they don’t really know what needs to be done but can’t just escalate you like that. They have no choice but to follow the script. I’ve tried switching to telling them the things I have done on my own to attempt to fix and diagnose the issue. I am not 100% positive, but I think it goes over better. I have a few friends that manage US based tech support staff, I’ll try and remember to ask them about that approach. It’s frustrating to deal with but the people who are trying to help you can’t assume that you’ve tried everything on their script. It could quite literally get them fired.
but I play one on TV.
/* No Comment */
There should be a distinction between "Engineer" and "Licensed Professional Engineer (in Oregon)." Just like someone licensed to practice medicine in New York can claim to be a physician, but can't practice legally in Oregon.
There should also be a distinction between calling yourself a Licensed Professional Engineer (in Oregon) for the purposes of getting business as an engineer
IIRC, there is. A PE is a licensed profession with a higher liability for errors and omissions. For some fields, such as Civil Engineering, practicing as an engineer pretty much requires being a PE since only PE's can sign off on designs in most cases. When I worked in the power industry a PE had to sign of on any design changes, for example. In other cases, training as an engineer is all that is needed to make engineering judgements. I signed off on plenty of tests and inspections even though I am not a PE, although I have an engineering degree, and no PE was required to review the results.
and for the purposes of, say, impressing a girl you meet at a party.
I doubt that is a winning line...
In the present case, the man was not offering his services for hire, nor appearing as an expert witness at a trial, so it really isn't clear why he shouldn't be allowed to lie even about more specific qualifications.
I think the board overreached and was properly smacked down. However, I do think it is reasonable to require licensure where specific knowledge is required to ensure someone has a minimal level of competence in the field. What engineers missed is, unlike doctors and lawyers, was the chance to control supply by requiring licensure to sue the title "engineer" in any circumstances and thus support higher pay.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
YouTube videos say that you are either delusional or a liar.
https://www.google.com/search?...
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
The moment you accept that violence is an acceptable response to opinions is the moment that your turn evil.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
The judge pointed out that "engineer" is a generic word. "State certified engineer" and "Certified Traffic Engineer" are mighty specific and carry the word "certified". If he had used the term "Certified Traffic Engineer" in his email, I am sure the judge would have sided with the state.
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
> Example- we have RUNAWAY spending and a
> MASSIVE debt. A conservative would typically want
> to rework that existing system to reduce the debt
> and deficit. That obviously requires change.
Oh, that's rich. The only time in my own lifetime when the country had a balanced budget... hell, was running a surplus and paying down the debt even... it was under a liberal president. Then you conservatives took over and pissed away that surplus into a series of pointless multi-trillion dollar wars.
Cry me a goddamned river about debts and deficits. You like both as much as any "liberal" you attack. You just want to waste money on different things, that's all.
Imagine all the people...
Just to make this clear, are you saying the American Nazis DON'T attack people?
I am as much against the Antifa movement's violent practices as the next guy, but to my knowledge they have not committed outright murder. The same can not be said for the various Neo-Nazi and white supremacist groups.
Good, I'd very much expect that.
I also expect them to need 3+ years working professionally plus other requirements before any professional accreditation body worth joining would grant them full membership and a professional engineer title.
Regardless if he was a licensed PE, a practicing engineer or a fry cook, if his measurements and conclusions were valid and repeatable, his voice should be heard. It's highly likely the only reason he was using his "Engineer" title was to lend credence to his fact finding and problem solving skills. I.E. to get the attention of dismissive bureaucrats.
~Any apparent grammatical or typographic errors are caused by defects in your display device.
So bite me, Oregon.
He was attempting to indicate that he wasn't some rube with a high school education that they could blow off, but someone who actually understood the engineering principles involved.
They knew he understood that they were shaving the times on the lights to create revenue and were attempting to shut him up and/or discredit him before enough people noticed to actually take them to court over their already legally established practice. A court had already said that municipalities and states were not allowed to do that.
Instead he took them to court and won. Now hopefully he or someone will follow up and hold the people responsible for fiddling with the light also accountable.
Nope.
They knew he was a person with a degree in engineering. They also knew that if they paid attention to what he was saying they would have to stop illegal charging people for running yellow lights. They had an economic incentive to try to discredit him.
Had he been an engineer certified to work in Oregon I have every confidence they would have done everything in their power to try to get his certification pulled. He was attempting to interfere in the illegal gravy train the state has fro separate innocent people from their money. DO you have any idea how this scam works. They use a camera to take a picture of your car as it "violates" the red light law, never mind that the light was yellow when you entered the intersection. You are then sent a bill fro the fine. You are not given a chance to go to court to contest the ticket. You get no day in court and if you fail to pay they suspend your license. The money is collect by a third party who take a cut, so the more violations the more they make, so they have incentive to shave the required time off the yellow light period, whihc should be 1 second to see the light and at least 3 seconds to react. The Federal Highway Administration has recommendations for yellow light lengths, but they are not legally mandated. There are however well-established engineering formula for calculating them based on road speed. Oregon's lights violate these standards.
This guy knew the formulas and knew that Oregon was playing fast and loose with them to increase revenue. The state was desperate to shut him up and figured painting him as someone not cognizant of the formulas and not familiar with the engineering principles involved was the best play. As I said I have every suspicion that if he had been certified they would have gone after that certification to shut him up.
By the way I have a Master degree in Engineering Management and a B.S. in computer/electrical engineering, but am not a PE. I thought about getting it when I was younger, but never have a real need. Its primarily required for legal reasons in some areas of the profession, but there are plenty of real engineers without one. I'm not even sure Oregon certification is equivalent.
It really comes down to the college they attend some colleges hand out degrees that aren't worth the paper they are printed on. Some less reputable colleges you can skip a bunch of requirements for a doctorate in philosophy if you are ordained by a church and registered with the state? There are churches that will ordain anyone for a small fee and help you register with the state..
Well just about every asshole who hacks shit together that breaks next week as soon as someone takes ownership calls themsleves a software engineer...
Maybe so but just as Mats Jarlstrom has a degree in engineering I have a degree in software engineering. I can tell you that the courses I took were primarily the same as those an electrical engineer would have taken at the university I attended with additional classes in software design, not programming. Since I took a minor in applied physics I also took a number of higher level physics courses.
Since I followed it up with an Engineering Management Masters, which included the same ethics courses taken by other engineers, and had electrical, civil and mechanical engineers I'm fairly confident that the university had a better idea of what a software engineer is than you do.
Maybe so
Not maybe, it's true. At one company I've worked at every coder is a "software engineer". I am *not* trying to justify this stance. Calling programmers software engineers is often part of a cultural problem that undervalues the actual engineering part.
with additional classes in software design, not programming
Souds reasonably. Way back when I used to teach an intro to software engineering to engineers. Also not programming. I figured many people in the room would go on and do programming, so I tried to basically give an intro to many of the major parts of engineering in a sort of "this won't make you a software engineer yet but you have to know about the existence of these things and the basic pitfalls so you'll know what to look up instead of just makeing a huge mess". A bugger to examine, but I figured my job was to teach not examine.
ethics [for software engineers]
Well for actual engineers sure. For "software engineers" as in programmers it's more about move fast and break things, or just break things. Maybe with some comp-sci algorithms thrown in because hey got to get some value from the degree, right?
I'm fairly confident that the university had a better idea of what a software engineer is than you do.
Sigh. It was going so well up to that point. How about you get off your high horse and reread my post.
SJW n. One who posts facts.
No. Both sides were bad because on one side were Nazis and on the other side was ANTIFA.
I agree with Trump here. Both sides were bad.
This issue was not anyone being run over. It was whether statues that were erected during the post-reconstruction period which celebrated Confederate racists should remain standing.
Now the left would like nothing better than to make all of these disappear because they highlight the fact that the Democratic party, the party whose members formed the Confederacy, attempted to succeed from the Union in defense of Slavery, and after reconstruction used laws to disenfranchise African Americans, is still using identity politics to ensure they stay dependent on said party.
Instead of tearing them down what needs to happen is a giant plaque needs to be placed next to each statue saying "This statue was erected by (whoever) who was a proud member of the Democratic party, and card carrying member of the KKK. Least we forget."
Yep your actions matter.
In NH I had to change my corporate identity when I moved there from Michigan because the word "Engineering" was in the company name, and NH said I needed an electrical (not electronic) power engineer or civil engineer / architect to be in the leadership of the company. A Computer Science / Electronics engineer didn't qualify.
- Tjp
I am in wallow with my inner money grubbing capitalistic pig. ... Oink!
Republicans Conservative. More conservative than Democrats, yes, but far from where many conservatives would want to be. The R and D parties are now both corrupt beyond hope when it comes to cronyism. And, thus, spending is and has been out of control.
I Today is the first time I've heard of the term "Professional Engineer" or even PE. I've never heard of a "Government board certified professional engineer"
If your /. user ID was a little lower you probably would have. It gets brought up fairly often when people who play with code call themselves "engineers" and ruffle the people with certs. Of course, then the guy in the back of the room dressed in stripped overalls that used to drive a train coughs, and the conversation sort of dies out.
So when an airliner overflies Oregon, does it become un-piloted?
Only if the pilot became an Oregon resident just because he overflies the state. I don't think that happens, do you?
As for the other comment about FAA regulating this, no, sorry. The state isn't issuing pilot's licenses, they just required residents with one to register and pay a fee. Whether it ever faced a court challenge I cannot say.
Idiot.
I was a back-up driver on a truck in a former life (a summer while in college).
Shotgun itself was the name given to backup driver on a stagecoach that carried a shotgun to defend it. He wasn't shooting at OPINIONS!
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
As for a: Brunel wasn't certified as a professional engineer in Oregon. But I would think he would be considered an engineer. You are correct.