Measles Cases Top Last Year's Total

An anonymous reader quotes a report from The Wall Street Journal: So far this year there have been 387 confirmed U.S. measles cases, more than 2018's full-year total and the second-largest number since the disease was declared eliminated in 2000 (Warning: source paywalled; alternative source), according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The disease has spread to 15 states in 2019, with six continuing outbreaks of three or more cases each in Washington, New York, New Jersey and California. The development has sparked new policies aimed at boosting inoculation and curbing misinformation about the measles vaccine.

Measles cases have has risen since 2000 as infected travelers bring the disease to the U.S. Those travelers -- unvaccinated foreign nationals or Americans who become infected abroad -- have spread the highly contagious disease to others in the U.S. who aren't vaccinated or hadn't previously had measles. These cases have fueled outbreaks in communities where large numbers of people haven't been inoculated because of personal or religious exemptions to the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine. The largest growth in infections since measles was eliminated totaled 23 outbreaks and 667 cases in 2014. Last year there were 17 outbreaks and 372 confirmed cases. The number of cases in 2019 could increase in the coming months. Measles is a seasonal disease, with cases rising in late winter and early spring in temperate climates, according to the World Health Organization.

Comments

Something missing in the head

[phantomfive]

There is something really wrong with people who don't vaccinate. I don't know what it is exactly, but they are not seeing the world clearly.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Its called an IQ, they just don't have any.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

And they are all left wingers. Go figure.

Re:Something missing in the head

[phantomfive]

Its called an IQ, they just don't have any.

That's not the problem, everyone has an IQ.

It's most likely that some of these people are actually quite intelligent, they just aren't very good at collecting correct information about the world. Some of them actually spend a lot of time and effort into researching the topic, so you can't even say they are lazy. What is it that they are missing that prevents them from collecting accurate information about the world? A lack of knowledge about statistics?

Re: Something missing in the head

[js290]

my niece exhibited symptoms of measles post-vax

Some people have natural immunity, and dont need a vaccine. Some people are asymptomatic carriers - they carry a virus, but it doesnt make them sick. Some people have defective immune systems, and vaccines dont work. Vaccines operate at population level, not individual.

— MactatorðY (@MactatorMaximus) February 1, 2019

Re: Something missing in the head

[js290]

IQ is largely a pseudoscientific swindle

Re:Something missing in the head

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

It's a lack of critical thinking skills and/or logical reasoning ability.

These people are like large children, unable to think things through or weigh them with any sense of proportion. They're prone to magical thinking and jumping to conclusions.

Reasoning with them usually just makes them dig in their heels because a) they don't want to feel dumb, and b) they don't want to lose face.

At some point eventually even they'll know they're wrong, but they'll go down with the ship rather than admit that they bought into a load of bullshit.

Re:Something missing in the head

[QuietLagoon]

Necessary bills for unnecessary outbreaks are being paid by all of us.

https://arstechnica.com/scienc... The true dollar cost of the anti-vaccine movement

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

What's the dollar cost of damage done by vaccines?

Re:Something missing in the head

[gravewax]

negative millions if not billions. The lives and medical costs saved are massive.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Mashiki]

So why is the anti-vaxxer movement so heavily tied in many countries to the especially affluent, highly educated? They wouldn't get where they are lacking critical thinking skills and/or logical reasoning ability. Hell there's massive swaths of people teaching in universities(i.e. subject expert professors) here in Canada, and they're the core demographic of the anti-vaxxer movement.

Here's my guess. They've become so specialized in the areas that they teach, that they've become literal retards outside of it. It's why you'll see country kids vaccinated, and city kids not. Kids who grew up in small towns vaccinated, but the kids in major urban areas where government, science, and various specialty sectors live, not. We grew up with various diseases that would threaten animals like turkeys, chickens, pigs, cows, and so on. And know just how much vaccinating can make a difference. The urbanites on the other hand don't, have never seen it, it's especially bad with the "but food comes from the supermarket" lot.

Your point about losing face is right, but it has far more. Listen to an educated anti-vaxxer go on about how they "know" they're right, because of their education.

Re:Something missing in the head

[pigwin32]

How many pro-vaxxers have done anything to inform themselves about the choices they are making on behalf of their children, that doesn't include parroting their doctors/nurses/medical professional of choice? Well have you? What did you discover?

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

... seeing the world clearly.

How do you know? Do you see them clearly? They've got a very clear reason for avoiding vaccinations.

The evidence is, their evidence is faulty. That leads to an obvious result; garbage in (fear-mongering anecdotes), garbage out (vaccine phobia).

Telling people they're wrong and stupid is belittling them and doesn't work. The problem needs to attacked at the source. That means, making someone liable for unproven finger-pointing and fear-mongering anecdotes. The government won't censor people and Facebook doesn't want the responsibility (and cost) of traditional publishers.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Darinbob]

Not true, stop repeating this. It's not a partisan issue. I have run across strong conservatives who are opposed to vaccination, and will justify it by saying the government has no right to tell them what to do. It's a stupid stance but definitely a common conservative view.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Darinbob]

Affluent parents are also much more likely to be home schooled and vaccination optional, poor parents have to send kids to public schools where vaccination is mandatory.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Darinbob]

Not just anti-vaxx, but there's a strong resurgence in conspiracy theories in general. It's social media spreading this stuff mostly, with a strong theme of "we're smarter than all the experts, so join us and you'll be one of the smartest people on the planet too!" Anti-vaxx, flat-earth, faked moon landing, and just this week there's a conspiracy forming around why the rapper Nipsey Hussel was killed.

Add to that a strong anti-education movement that seems to be forming, and an anti-science movement, and you can see this here on slashdot even.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, something's seriously wrong in our society when so many tens of thousands of people are so misguided in their beliefs that they are willing to risk the lives of others, even those they profess to love. All because they can't acknowledge the facts about how viruses work, and persist in the obviously false belief that "it can't happen to ME." And the consequences are costing our society hundreds of millions of dollars every year in direct costs, and even more if you factor in the lost human capital. It's unconscionable!

I'm talking, of course, about men who have sex with men and spread HIV, a virus with no known cure. A virus that is readily transmissible, is expensive to treat, and when left untreated can develop into AIDS, a terminal disease . An epidemic that has spread to hundreds of thousands of people in the U.S., an epidemic whose very existence in the developed world is almost completely due to MWSM, prostitution, and intravenous drug use. ("The CDC reported that in 2009 that male-to-male sex (MSM) accounted for 61% of all new HIV infections in the U.S.", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV_and_men_who_have_sex_with_men).

Then, of course, there are the parents who choose not to vaccinate their children against measles, a disease that is easily prevented in the developed world. One that infects hundreds (!!) of people every year in the US, which is fatal in a whopping 0.05% of cases -- and which, left untreated, generally clears up on its own, leaving the host immune and no longer contagious.

Don't get me wrong, I think those parents are wrong. I think they should be educated. But for sheer danger to society, I cannot understand why anyone preaches about the evils of anti-vaxxers when we don't preach about the far worse evils of MWSM, as measured by the consequences and expense. The truth is, many people do what they want to do, they make decisions based on feelings, and they won't listen to anyone who tells them differently. It's always been that way and it always will be that way. If you think MWSM are morally fine and anti-vaxxers are the enemy of society, your brain is turned off.

Re: Something missing in the head

[c6gunner]

I've discovered that vaccines saves hundreds of thousands of lives, and billions of dollars in medical costs annually.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

It's because the experts keep discrediting themselves. You might not think they are, but to an increasingly large number of people, science and government institutions are not trustworthy, for what they consider good reasons. The decades of constant spittle-flying extremism from those advocating the positions of these experts, from climate to vax, does absolutely nothing to help instill faith in anyone.

I consider myself a scientifically-minded person and I no longer have any faith in the scientific institutions reaching the right conclusions, let alone sane policy plans. I have seen too much horribly wrong to continue to hold those beliefs.

Re:Something missing in the head

[phantomfive]

It's why you'll see country kids vaccinated, and city kids not.

Is that really true? Country kids are much more likely to be vaccinated than city kids?

Re: Something missing in the head

[phantomfive]

For the most part, vaccines also work at the individual level. In most individuals, the vaccine actually does prevent them from getting the disease.

Re:Something missing in the head

[phantomfive]

I'm still not convinced that any of the flat-earthers are actually serious.

Re:Something missing in the head

[phantomfive]

You can look at the data. This graph is really clear.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

It's almost as bad as the people who support importing millions upon millions of people from the third world with third world diseases and then scratch their heads when the crime and diseases of the third world turn up in the United States. Who could have foreseen such a thing? It's as surprising as bringing millions of ants to share your house and then finding that they've made a trail to the sugar jar.

The more observant news watchers will notice that NONE of the outbreaks are actually in communities of affluent, anti-vax proponents. The outbreaks are all found in communities with a high proportion of foreign born immigrants. The media go to great pains to conceal the demographics of these outbreaks, which is the largest clue to the truth. If it were actually communities of rich white kids getting measles it would be shouted from the roof tops.

Re:Something missing in the head

[bradley13]

"some of these people are actually quite intelligent, they just aren't very good at collecting correct information about the world"

This. Without naming names, there is a blogger I used to read. A very intelligent guy, but...over the last couple of years, he has somehow fallen into the world of conspiracy theorists. Out of curiosity, I looked in on his blog a couple of days ago: he is now busily denying that the Apollo moon landings ever happened. It's really bizarre, watching the convolutions an intelligent mind invents, in order to justify crazy ideas.

Really, if you go far enough, nothing is provable, everything could be faked. Maybe we're all just brains in jars. But that's no way to live...

Re:Something missing in the head

[_Sharp'r_]

Speaking of a sense of proportion.... in the United States you're three times as likely to die from a shark attack (1 death per year on average) as you are from from the measles (1 death every 3 years on average from 387 reported measles cases per year).

To put that into further perspective, the U.S. averages 11 deaths from fireworks and 24 from train crashes per year. Death from a literal lightning strike is 141 times as common than dying from the measles in the United States.

So let's not overreact quite yet.

Re: Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

England had a thousand cases last year.
How many people died from measles in the us? I think news are making too big a deal out of this.

Re:Something missing in the head

[udachny]

People must be able to do whatever they please, to vaccinate or not, etc., it's their kids, their bodies. I prefer to vaccinate for practical reasons simply because it is easier in the long run but I see the appeal of not vaccinating also because I don't like the pushy collectives. If I wasn't so lazy I would not vaccinate out of anti-collectivist principle, not because of any potential harm a vaccine can cause.

Re:Something missing in the head

[religionofpeas]

1 death every 3 years on average from 387 reported measles cases per year

And how would that number change with reduced levels of vaccination ?

So let's not overreact quite yet

Suppose your car is parked next to the river, and you notice it ever so slowly rolling towards the edge. What would be a good time to start reacting ?

Re:Something missing in the head

[Uberbah]

Or we could pull our heads out now. What if a simple shot could prevent all those deaths from sharks, fireworks and train crashes. And the consequences of measles don't just include "death". It can also make you blind or deaf or leave you with brain damage.

Re:Something missing in the head

[TheRealQuestor]

it's a belief system. People tend to believe what the are told when it is already inline with what their personal beliefs are. The more people who buy into it the more it reinforces that belief. Don't have to look far to see it either. Drive down the road and count the churches. Belief is a tough nut to crack and no amount of empirical evidence or data that proves otherwise will change their minds.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Dog-Cow]

If you threaten my well-being or the well-being of my family, I should be free to shoot you on sight. If not vaccinating only affected the unvaccinated, no one would care.

Re:Something missing in the head

[sjames]

One issue I have heard from people who have concerns is the sheer number of vaccinations. According to the CDC, 19 vaccinations are recommended by the time a baby is 6 months old!

This creates a tendency to throw the baby out with the bath water. That is, rather than spread out the vaccinations, or just get the really important ones, get none. When everything is top priority, nothing is.

It doesn't help that there's a ton of mis-information attributing every possible bad thing that may happen to a vaccination. With so many packed into such a short time at a really vulnerable age, there's bound to be a lot of mis-attributions.

Meanwhile, the pharmaceutical industry seems bound and determined to ruin it's own reputation while giving everyone the finger, making it even harder to convince a parent that at least some of these vaccines are really important and not just yet another scheme to separate people from their money.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Rick Schumann]

Blame social media, and how it's leveraged by (for lack of a better overall term for them) Bad People to affect society in bad ways.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Dog-Cow]

Yeah, who the fuck cares about preventing a pandemic? Let's just wait for people to start dropping like flies, and then we'll consider action!

Re:Something missing in the head

[Dog-Cow]

Far less than the damage done by open-heart surgeries.

Re: Something missing in the head

[Dog-Cow]

Waiting for people to be dying is both bad policy and utterly immoral.

Re:Something missing in the head

[religionofpeas]

I think people are attracted to the idea of feeling special because they "know". Also, the idea that there's an invisible cabal of elite that's shaping the world may be more palatable than the idea that it's nothing but chaotic forces of nature. At least if somebody is in control, there's perpetual hope of a simple fix.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

I can confirm, it's mostly left wing Democrats and Feminists who are anti-vax.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

no they aren't. they're actually mostly religious nut-jobs.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Or something less completely mental - how about vaccinate on sight? That way you only seem slightly bat-shit-crazy

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

High. It allowed Darwin-selected children to grow up into antivaxxers and put off the damage to the next generation.

Maybe they should invent a devaccination drug. Then we can see if they'd willingly remove that 'horrible autism-inducing mercury' from their bodies. Then again, maybe that's why they decriminalised intentionally giving people HIV in certain places...

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Come on now, get your facts straight. It's negative trillions for polio vaccine alone. Many 10's of trillions for all vaccines. In the 1940's, 2500 people in the US died each year from polio and 30,000 were crippled for life. The US populationin 1948 was 146 million. So it's safe to say today 6,000 people would be dying a year, 70,000 crippled for life.

When you consider a lifetime of treatment for 10's of thousands of people, you're easily looking at way over million dollars a person in today's dollars. One million times 70,000...$70 billion a year. And that doesn't even begin to value the thousands of people dying each year. And the lost income potential of the dead and crippled.

The financial impact of Polio vaccine alone is well into the trillions of dollars on the positive side.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

We need to kill them. It is legitimate form of self defense.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

How can the crime come from other countries, when you have the highest incarceration rate of all countries.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

definitely a common conservative view.

No, it isn't common at all, you whore.

Re: Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Probably few if any, really. It's the brain inflammation complication (0.2% chance occurring) that has the mortality chance in a 1st World nation.
Of course surviving can just mean you've lost hearing, but that's not a news worth stat to quote. Or the weakened immune system letting something else kill you.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, that explains why Toronto, Canada gets all the major disease outbreaks. It really is the septic tank of North America.

Re: Something missing in the head

[pigwin32]

I've discovered that vaccines saves hundreds of thousands of lives, and billions of dollars in medical costs annually.

Nice deflection

Re:Something missing in the head

[dargaud]

But how many of those conspiracy theories are pushed on purpose: to sell a book (many), to sell a patent (original antivaxxer doctor), to sell snake oil (sorry, 'essential' oils) or, more importantly nowadays, to destabilize society. If we were to dig I wouldn't be surprised if most of them came from secret services of various countries and 'targeted' at their enemies, including our own. Only they have ways to spectacularly backfire.

Re:Something missing in the head

[angel'o'sphere]

Well,
I'm 52 ... I _had_ all those diseases kids in our days get vaccinated against. Perhaps if child doctors don't insist hard enough, young parents (20, 30 years old) who never had those diseases (probably never saw/met one having them) simply underestimate the risks?
The true risks are for pregnant women getting a disease like rubella, which cause malformations for the child.

Re:Something missing in the head

[angel'o'sphere]

Wow,
that list is absurd. No wonder people are against it.
First of all new borns basically have no immune system. Vaccination before about 6 weeks is completely pointless (and is only working if the mother gives breast milk).
Vaccines given before the immune system can react on them are pointless.
The first vaccinations in Germany are done around 6 - 8 weeks, and the important ones, like hepatitis etc. after 8 weeks.

And all this is well known, why anyone in the US demands a child gets vaccinated at birth, when the vaccine can not even work, is beyond me.

Re: Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Fear makes smart people do stupid things
Fear of Austism = Anti Vaxxers
Fear of Blacks = Racism

Re:Something missing in the head

[angel'o'sphere]

Well, if the car rolls slow enough, the river might dry out before it reaches it? Lets watch and wait!

Re: Something missing in the head

[c6gunner]

"Deflection"? Are you high?

Re:Something missing in the head

[ShanghaiBill]

Not true, stop repeating this. It's not a partisan issue.

Indeed. Anti-vaccination beliefs don't follow the usual political polarization.

Right-wing kooks see vaccinations as a government conspiracy. Left-wing kooks see vaccinations as a corporate conspiracy. Moderates vaccinate their kids.

Re: Something missing in the head

[angel'o'sphere]

What you mean with "post-vax"?
She got symptoms right after vaccination? That can happen, after all the vaccine consist out of virus fragments of the virus it should vaccinate against.
She got sick later? Can happen, too. Vaccine is not guaranteed to work!!

You can even get sick from the vaccine, but that is rare, and it should not be any different than getting sick from the real thing.

Re:Something missing in the head

[jblues]

Yes because one of the interesting things about people is that all of their complex multi-dimensional complex points of view, flaws, beliefs, intelligence, past experience . . . this can all be distilled down to produce a point, upon a one dimensional line. And that line has a clearly defined centre point. People will either fall to the left or the right of that polarising centre point. Once there, that's it. You'd better stick with your own kind, because there will never be reconciliation with the other side. If you would like to find out more, please purchase my new book 'Thinking in Polarities', which is a follow-up to my seminal block-buster 'The Right are from Mars, the Left are from Venus'.

Re: Something missing in the head

[c6gunner]

First of all new borns basically have no immune system. Vaccination before about 6 weeks is completely pointless

Nonsense. Newborns have a poorly developed immune system, but that's a far cry from "no immune system".

If you'd bothered looking at the list, the only vaccination given prior to 6 weeks is the Hep-B vaccine, and that's due to the high risk of developing chronic Hep-B. And despite your protestations, plenty of European countries also give the Hep-B vaccine at birth:

https://vaccine-schedule.ecdc....

Re: Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

All is incorrect. The fact of the matter is that shitty smelly parasites hindu-chimps leech on americans, travel back and forth to their stupid shitty hindustan, bring back to america all sorts of diseases, with intent to invade and populate America by replacing americans.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

In the USA vaccine makers have blanket immunity from lawsuit. You can not sue them due to harm, vaccine makers have no accountability. If you were a profit making corporation with no liability for harm, would you maybe give less of a crap sometimes and maybe use the old familiar trick of adding mercury to boost the vaccine production in some batches? Maybe, who cares if you did? No one can sue you for damages!

Before you go off half cocked, don't forget, migrants carry disease... More migrants = more diseases. Even if we're talking world totals of a disease, migrants expose themselves and their new host community to new strains of pathogens; More migration, less "herd immunity".

Build the wall & make vaccine makers liable for quality of their product... THEN we'll talk about censoring those who are afraid of the clusterfuck big pharma and pro-migrant lobbying has created.

Re: Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is you're looking at stats where the non-vaccinated are getting herd immunity protection from the sensible people.

Without any vaccination that 387 cases would be millions because measles is pretty virulent.
At a rate of 1 per thousand cases, that would be thousands of deaths.

Is that enough to justify vaccination in your mind?

Re:Something missing in the head

[Joce640k]

Not true, stop repeating this. It's not a partisan issue. I have run across strong conservatives who are opposed to vaccination, and will justify it by saying the government has no right to tell them what to do. It's a stupid stance but definitely a common conservative view.

I'd have thought there's be more conservatives in the anti-vax movement - the religious ones.

Re:Something missing in the head

[h33t l4x0r]

t's partisan. On the extreme right you have Alex Jones, etc who are not afraid of spreading toxic disinformation. On the extreme right you have Gwynneth Paltrow, etc who are.

The issue is exactly partisan because asshats like Alex Jones has support of POTUS.

Re:Something missing in the head

[h33t l4x0r]

exreme left regarding Gpaltrow excuse me.

Re: Something missing in the head

[F.Ultra]

The "you can even get sick from the vaccine" only relates to a small fraction of vaccines (Attenuation Vaccines) where the virus in the vaccine is not euthanized. The Measles Vaccine happens to be this special type, however AFAIK the patient have to suffer from immunosuppression in order to be susceptible for being infected bu such vaccines.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

One of the main problems here is believing the fraud perpetrated, due to lack of critical thinking skills.

It's even been measured scientifically to an astounding degree of accuracy. One heartfelt testimonial is given the same weight as a stack of scientific papers 2.74948 miles tall.

Re:Something missing in the head

[F.Ultra]

While "19 vaccinations" sounds like a lot one have to understand that that very same child will be exposed to more than a million bacteria proteins during and shortly after birth so 19 is a drop in the ocean for an infants immune system.

When measuring the immune system of an infant Scientists have calculated that they can handle over 10000 vaccines at any one time: https://pediatrics.aappublicat...

Re:Something missing in the head

[stealth_finger]

There is something really wrong with people who don't vaccinate. I don't know what it is exactly, but they are not seeing the world clearly.

The best part is the new wave of tech savvy anti-vaxxers going online to ask how they can protect their little precious angels from these nasty diseases doing the rounds.

Re:Something missing in the head

[F.Ultra]

An infant is exposed to over one million bacteria proteins during birth so no, new borns does not "basically have no immune system". If that had been the case then all infants would die at birth. Calculations done point to infants having enough immune system to handle over 10000 vaccinations at a time: https://pediatrics.aappublicat...

Re:Something missing in the head

[stealth_finger]

If I wasn't so lazy I would not vaccinate out of anti-collectivist principle, not because of any potential harm a vaccine can cause.

Then you're free to fuck off and die of smallpox, except you can't because it was eradicated by vaccination. It's not a choice thing like getting a tattoo.

Re:Something missing in the head

[F.Ultra]

I had the same conviction as you until I saw "Behind the Curve" on Netflix and now I'm unfortunately 100% convinced that there actually do exist people that believe in the flat earth conspiracy.

Re:Something missing in the head

[stealth_finger]

If you threaten my well-being or the well-being of my family, I should be free to shoot you on sight. If not vaccinating only affected the unvaccinated, no one would care.

Hot lead vaccination lol

Re:Something missing in the head

[F.Ultra]

From the CDC:

In the decade before 1963 when a vaccine became available, nearly all children got measles by the time they were 15 years of age. It is estimated 3 to 4 million people in the United States were infected each year. Also each year, among reported cases, an estimated 400 to 500 people died, 48,000 were hospitalized, and 1,000 suffered encephalitis (swelling of the brain) from measles.

Re:Something missing in the head

[stealth_finger]

Speaking of a sense of proportion.... in the United States you're three times as likely to die from a shark attack (1 death per year on average) as you are from from the measles (1 death every 3 years on average from 387 reported measles cases per year).

To put that into further perspective, the U.S. averages 11 deaths from fireworks and 24 from train crashes per year. Death from a literal lightning strike is 141 times as common than dying from the measles in the United States.

So let's not overreact quite yet.

And more people die in the bath than by terrorism but where does all the money go? I don't see many anti-bath teams running around, do you?

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

The thing that I find ridiculous about the entire situation is reasoning like this:
Oh, look science/experts is/are wrong here and there - screw science! They're all fucking liars!
Oh, look these people were called conspiracy nuts and turned out to be right. Conspiracies are true after all!

The generalization of science/experts and of course also "conspiracy nuts" in itself is a big red flag for a strawman fallacy. If you're interested in approaching a truth you have to examine their claims and evidence on a case by case basis and not on the basis which groups they associate with and what kind of nonsense in those groups may exist.

The underlying issue is probably that most people are either too lazy or never learned to think for themselves. Thinking for yourself requires a lot of effort as in doing your own research and constantly challenging your own position because you understand that you might be biased and just looking for confirmation of your preconceived notion.
From my experience with people this is a very uncomfortable process for most as it always harbors the chance of learning that you were wrong. And most people seem to hate to be wrong and would rather persist in error than admitting that they made a mistake.
This might have to do with our societies that teach us that being wrong, and by extension admitting that you are wrong, is a sign of a weakness that should be abhorred.

Re: Something missing in the head

[stealth_finger]

Waiting for people to be dying is both bad policy and utterly immoral.

Waiting for people to die doesn't help either. See gun control.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Even if they were, their misguided opinions usually don't seriously harm other people.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Applehu Akbar]

Credit the success of the antivax movement to our years of catering to anti-science activists in so many different arenas. Every time we let No Nukers prevent carbon-free energy infrastructure from being built, every time we let No GMO activists label our food to stoke fake fears, we make it easier for the next anti-science movement to flourish. What’s next, equal time for those who believe the Earth is flat?

Anti-science activists have the same right to public protest as everyone else, but we don’t have to keep giving them access to the court system to hobble progress. Legal cases involving science and technology should be argued by people with qualified knowledge in the fields involved, and only those people. We don’t like it when creationists try to replace public school curricula with their feelings about biology, do we?

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Misleading. Doctors are spreading them out now.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Mostly, some kind of "sunk cost fallacy". They have dedicated such amounts of effort to their cause that now they cannot afford accepting defeat. Otherwise, it would be admitting that all those efforts have been "wasted" and losing face no matter the amount of evidence.

It's basically like faith now.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not what happened. They decriminalized "exposure without disclosure", not intentional transmission, in certain places. Which makes fucking sense based on the scientific evidence around HIV medication. If you're on meds, you can't spread it. At all. However, if you fuck someone without a condom and don't tell them you have HIV, *EVEN IF YOU CAN'T SPREAD IT TO THEM*, you'll be thrown in jail for not disclosing that you have a highly stigmatized and very misunderstood disease that is completely under control and of no threat to anybody else.

HIV criminalization is unscientific and predatory. It puts people who are of no threat to anybody into jails where they'll have less access to medication and much more likelihood of not only spreading the disease among the prison population (many of whom are *not* lifers, so they'll be released one day,) but also catching other diseases such as hepatitis C while they're in jail.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Applehu Akbar]

So why is the anti-vaxxer movement so heavily tied in many countries to the especially affluent, highly educated?

That’s where the partisan tilt comes in. Antivaxers on the right are tied to the Christian fundamentalist movement, with some help from the Nye County desert conspiracy community. As such, they are as far outside the nation’s conversational mainstream as the creationists are.
On the left, meanwhile, the antivaxers went to the same schools as the No Nukers and food faddists. They dominate in Hollywood and The East Coast intellectual community. In milieux like this, old faiths like Communism find a natural successor in anti-science.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

mercury

Oh god, this shit again.

First of all, it's not mercury. It's thiomersal, which metabolizes into ethylmercury in the body. Secondly it's used as a vaccine preservative. It has nothing to do with boosting production, and it's not a "trick". Third, they use so little of it that it's safe to have in your body.

Not all toxins are on a binary measure of 100% safe vs. 100% deadly. The human body can safely handle up to certain amounts of otherwise deadly substances, from water to motherfucking radioactivity, without dying or developing any complications. That's what dosage monitoring is for.

Re: Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

People must be able to do whatever they please, to vaccinate or not, etc., it's their kids, their bodies.

Now that's a bullshit argument. It's like saying parents should be able to beat their kids bloody, whip them, chain them up in the basement, even mutilate them. No, parents have an obligation to see to the child's well being. And that should include vaccination. And no billshit religious exemptions...99% of people who claim religious exemptions don't actually practice one of the very few religions that actually oppose vaccination.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

HIV would be less of a problem if they brought the price of PEP, PrEP and HIV treatment medication down to affordable levels. Some more generics would be great, too. Right now, effectively preventing HIV costs over $800 per month* and treating it costs over $1500 per month. It's like they're just waiting around and hoping all the poor people with it will just die off.

* Yes, I know, condoms and all that. What if they break? What if you get stealthed? That's what PrEP is for -- a last line of defense.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Great, so that means we'll be seeing less of them in the future? Saves us from having to take 'em out, I suppose.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

2.74948 miles tall

Real scientists prefer metric, but otherwise I agree with your statements. :)

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Get the U.S. to build the wall, shut down borders, stop taking their vaccinations... then wait a few hundred years and just walk right into a nation full of dead bodies and claim it for your own?

Sounds like a plan that no politician would have the patience to implement, unless they were immortal.

Re: Something missing in the head

[angel'o'sphere]

Yeah,
high risk my ass.

Sorry, a vaccine given just shortly after birth is not working.

In Germany Hep-B vaccine is given after 6 weeks, go figure.

And despite your protestations, plenty of European countries also give the Hep-B vaccine at birth
I did not get vaccinated, I'm to old :P.

Anyway: you are contradicting yourself.

A) does a vaccine work when given at birth?
B) where is the high risk of infection if everyone is vaccinated at birth?

Good luck figuring out what is true :P

Looking at the link you gave, those vaccinations seem to be "passive" vaccinations as in giving immunoglobulin to babies where the mother is infected. They are not "vaccinations" in the traditional sense. Probably the same is true for the original post I answered to.

Re: Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm done with this. Not vaccinating children is child abuse and should be treated accordingly. Rare medical exceptions need to be audited by a board certified panel. Doctors whose determinations are overturned by this board need to be investigated. Those doctors' medical licenses should be held at risk during that inquiry and revoked if any factor other than patient examination influenced their decision.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Trailer Trash]

I'm still not convinced that any of the flat-earthers are actually serious.

I know one. I have bad news for you. They are really, really serious.

See here for someone explaining it from a supposed "biblical" standpoint:

http://www.jaymc.com/FlatEarth...

and this graphic in particular, with Bible verses:

http://www.jaymc.com/FlatEarth...

They conveniently leave out the verses that say the earth is round (meaning, a sphere) and hung in the heavens. Even the ancients understood this stuff to some extent, they use allegories which people now are taking literally.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

> The true risks are for pregnant women getting a disease like rubella, which cause malformations for the child.

Why do you undercut your true previous statement

Perhaps if child doctors don't insist hard enough, young parents (20, 30 years old) who never had those diseases (probably never saw/met one having them) simply underestimate the risks?

in this way? There are lots of other risks from childhood diseases, including mortality. Many of these risks have low probabilities, and people, in general, are really bad at evaluating such risks.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Trailer Trash]

Speaking of a sense of proportion.... in the United States you're three times as likely to die from a shark attack (1 death per year on average) as you are from from the measles (1 death every 3 years on average from 387 reported measles cases per year).

To put that into further perspective, the U.S. averages 11 deaths from fireworks and 24 from train crashes per year. Death from a literal lightning strike is 141 times as common than dying from the measles in the United States.

So let's not overreact quite yet.

Yes, there are things that kill you other than measles. The difference is that measles is pretty easily preventable - people just have to get vaccinated.

The other issue with measles - and most of the "childhood diseases" - is that they have other complications besides death.

https://www.cdc.gov/measles/ab...

"About one child out of every 1,000 who get measles will develop encephalitis (swelling of the brain) that can lead to convulsions and can leave the child deaf or with intellectual disability."

"Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis (SSPE) is a very rare, but fatal disease of the central nervous system that results from a measles virus infection acquired earlier in life. SSPE generally develops 7 to 10 years after a person has measles, even though the person seems to have fully recovered from the illness. Since measles was eliminated in 2000, SSPE is rarely reported in the United States."

That last line is ironic.

Re: Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, a vaccine given just shortly after birth is not working.

As usual, you think you're an expert on every subject known to man, while being wrong about pretty much all of them.

Re: Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

> Good luck figuring out what is true :P

That's pretty simple. In (B)

> where is the high risk of infection if everyone is vaccinated at birth?

you generalize/exaggerate from a statement "plenty of European countries also give the Hep-B vaccine at birth" to "everyone is vaccinated at birth". Europe is not the entire world, and the original statement did not even imply that the vaccine was mandatory, something which should be obvious from the topic of conversation.

Which leads me to question whether anything you claim should be taken very seriously, at least without a lot of further checking.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, if you're a Torontonian it helps to keep a jar of vitamin C at home, just to pop a few after going outside.

Re:Something missing in the head

[froggyjojodaddy]

I'm vaccinated, as are my kids, but let me tell you, every year, I struggle getting it done. I hate needles, it goes way beyond a dislike and I do everything I can to avoid them. Getting vaccinated is a 60 minute affair while I alternate between hyper ventilating, tensing to the point where I induce a cramp, and trying desperately not to fall unconscious (I have a 70% failure rate). Afterwards, I don't want to do anything involving my arm - driving, eating, lifting things, even typing. The entire day is a write off.

Of course I realize it's irrational but it's only when I get needles in my forearm/elbow/wrist or hand area that I have a hard time. Poke me in the shoulder or glute to your hearts content, but if I can see it, I'm gonna struggle to make it easier for myself or the nurse.

I don't know how many people are like me - if they could deliver vaccines in pill form or even by injecting into a shoulder, I'd be there bright eyed and busy tailed the 1st morning. There are folks who don't vaccinate because of their religious or conspiracy theory beliefs but I'm willing to bet there's a LOT more who don't because they can't handle needles.

Incidentally, why can't they just inject you in the shoulder? I mean, a blood vessel is a blood vessel right?....

Re:Something missing in the head

[roman_mir]

ha ha, so that is a good example of a totalitarian oppressor, I would say anybody should be able to shoot anybody on sight, that way every family well being will be maximally protected.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

I went searching. The first hit I found was a 2018 published study for China. 81.5% of rural and 69.4% of urban children were vaccinated. Obviously, that's China and not the United States so there could be cultural differences at play.

The first result I found from the US was based on a 1999 survey which showed that rural/urban children had mostly similar rates of vaccination. I also found a report that showed that HPV vaccination rates were lower in rural areas compared to urban, however I don't consider that specific vaccination indicative of attitudes towards vaccination as a whole due to the prevalence of it being intertwined with attitudes towards adolescent sex.

Re:Something missing in the head

[gtall]

If all the "research' you do is anti-vax research, then you will get a distorted picture. I think the anti-vaxers go in with mind-set waiting to be validated. So they "research" anti-vax stuff. Lo and behold, their preconceptions are confirmed. Now they are "informed" anti-vaxers.

They are not unlike the 9/11 conspiracy crowd. They band together for mutual recursive backscratching and no new scientifically vetted information is allowed. Try arguing with one and sooner or later you run into, "you haven't seen the soooper-secret evidence that I have". Oh, yeah, that must be it, I've not yet been gone through the double-secret initiation to receive the Valuable Truth. It's just another cult.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

There is something really wrong with people who don't mandate quarantine for international travel. I don't know what it is exactly, but they are not seeing the world clearly.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

What makes this ignorance even more difficult to combat is that people's suspicion of the industry is to some extent justified. Practices such as: price gouging and pain-killer pushing haven't helped in building trust.

Re:Something missing in the head

[bungo]

My wife is anti-vax. She is intelligent and educated.

I had 2 MicroVax IIs, and one VAXStation 3100, all set up in a cluster.

She made me get rid of them once we were married and were thinking of having children.

She did let me keep the collection of Sparcstations, but only because they could sit on the desk, rather than being the desk.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

So why is the anti-vaxxer movement so heavily tied in many countries to the especially affluent, highly educated? They wouldn't get where they are lacking critical thinking skills and/or logical reasoning ability. ....

LOL.

Try hanging out in "progressive" bubbles in SoCal or Manhattan some time...

Amazing how these measles outbreaks tend to happen in left-leaning areas.

Re: Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

We found the gay guy who risks infecting his countless one night stands at the bath house, adult book store, and massage parlor.

How many men have you infected with HIV and justified in your head it was ok because they thought you were safe because you hid your sickness and obviously it is their fault for believing you and not using a condom?

You are fucked up.

Do not post in here looking for support for your murderous sex life.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep. Lots like you & me hate hate hate needles. I'm an old guy ... had all his vax-shots and lots more during hospital visits. Saved my life. I hate hate hate needles ! Did I say I'll punch somebody in-the-face who comes at me with a needle ?

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

I laughed watching the video in the alternative source. Reporter signs off saying Measles are often brought into the country by travelers who don't vaccinate.

I think what he meant to say, is measles if often brought around by people who use reddit for parenting advice...

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

No, there is something wrong with a country's policy that allows infected foreigners to
enter the country without being quarantined. This is the _real_ problem which was clearly
noted by the article. Anti-vaxxer's are a very, very small percentage of "the problem." When
you allow unfettered access to our (U.S.A.) country like this, this is a reasonable outcome.

Rather than find a real connection between a vaccine and it's negative side effect, the drug
companies are fueling this emotional response rather than critically looking at their "product."
Maybe it's something in the vaccine's vehicle component that causes the problem. Do they
always make each batch exactly the same way? We don't know because no one's actually
asked.

Look at the sulphur dioxide/sulphites in foods as an example of a potentially dangerous additive.

Also, we're giving this stuff to infants, whose body mass can't tolerate allergenic responses
like an adult. Additionally, we don't have a very good understanding of pre-weening infant's
biology (i.e., less than 6 months old). So, even though the anti-vaxxer's are very emotional,
they may actually have a point because the vaccine that may have harmed/killed their child
is no longer available for forensic analysis -- either it's used up or destroyed.

CAP === 'askance'

Re:Something missing in the head

[Jason Levine]

Part of the problem is that vaccines were too successful. Most parents nowadays have no first hand knowledge of how bad these diseases were. This is a good thing, of course, but it also means parents can easily assume that a low severity for measles ("you just get a rash for a week and then you're fine") and other diseases (Whooping cough: "you just cough for a bit"). Combine this with Internet misinformation inflating the risk of vaccines ("They've got toxins... TOXINS!!!") and you have a recipe for a bad risk calculation. Sadly, it might take a few more outbreaks before some parents really get the message that the vaccination risk is much lower than the disease risk.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Jason Levine]

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

Isaac Asimov, Column in Newsweek (21 January 1980)

Re:Something missing in the head

[magzteel]

In the USA vaccine makers have blanket immunity from lawsuit. You can not sue them due to harm, vaccine makers have no accountability. If you were a profit making corporation with no liability for harm, would you maybe give less of a crap sometimes and maybe use the old familiar trick of adding mercury to boost the vaccine production in some batches? Maybe, who cares if you did? No one can sue you for damages!

This system was created to insure vaccine makers would continue creating vaccines. It is fallout from the incident at Cutter labs where their polio vaccine was produced according to government guidelines but still gave some people polio. The company was sued for negligence even though they hadn't actually been negligent.

Re:Something missing in the head

[magzteel]

Well,
I'm 52 ... I _had_ all those diseases kids in our days get vaccinated against. Perhaps if child doctors don't insist hard enough, young parents (20, 30 years old) who never had those diseases (probably never saw/met one having them) simply underestimate the risks?

Exactly right. They grew up in an age where these diseases had been eradicated and they have no idea what life was like before.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Partisan means that the left/right have opposing views. Your very post shows the same view present on both sides.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you suggesting unvaccinated foreigners are more of a threat than unvaccinated Americans?

It's probably the headscarves right? They are an absolute bitch in terms of spreading measles.

What's interesting, is in a place like America, access to solid healthcare is far more readily available than in many other countries in which travelers come from. One could make the argument, that these cases are preventable. Access to "far-out" ideas on social media however, is pretty much universally available.

I'm not sure what to compare this rationale to. It would be like defending yourself for drunk driving, by saying, "I wouldn't have hit him, if he weren't out in the streets"

I can't really comment to the effects of medicine on infants, I did, after all, flunk med-school...

Re:Something missing in the head

[MaxRockatansky]

I wonder how many anti-vaxxers are also flat-earthers !?!?

Re:Something missing in the head

[Mashiki]

Affluent parents are also much more likely to be home schooled and vaccination optional

Think you meant to say affluent parents kids are more likely to be sent to private schools, where vaccinations can be optional. In Canada, you're more likely to home school especially if you're on the poorer end of the scale as well.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry, who are you talking about here? Systemd haters?

Re:Something missing in the head

[Chris Mattern]

Maybe they should invent a devaccination drug.

That's not going to help, since the major problem for everybody is that some people aren't getting vaccinated. Honestly, I wouldn't be nearly so mad at the anti-vaxxers if they were only hurting themselves. Unfortunately, since they are helping to spread contagious diseases, they're not.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Mashiki]

Is that really true? Country kids are much more likely to be vaccinated than city kids?

I can't speak for the US, but in Canada it's around 93% rural vaccinated vs 61% urban. Got a bit different a few years ago when the laws got changed that if you have a kid in public school they must be vaccinated here in Ontario. There was a huge outbreak of measles and chickenpox in the Ottawa/Hull area a few years ago, basically one year after the other. Only 13% of the kids were vaccinated, all of their parents worked in government, or education, or were in various specialty areas relating to government work(NGO's and such). And all of those kids attended private schools. You can dig up the articles on it from the globe and mail, or ottawa times if you're really interested in it.

Personally having had chickenpox during the big outbreak back in the 1980's, I sure as hell wished that the vaccine was covered by OHIP at the time instead of being $400/pop(about $850 today). Something my parents couldn't afford. Seeing the reactivation of it in shingles with my grandparents was pretty bad, my one grandmothers reaction was bad enough it put her into the hospital.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Mashiki]

The whole "but it's too many vaccinations" bit is pretty stupid. If anything, the whole mass "everything must be sterile, wrapped in a bubble and protected along with air tight homes" has done far more damage to a persons ability to fight off infections. Think of it this way, an urban kids immune system in some countries is so weak that doctors actually recommend sending them to "go play on a farm" for a week or two. Or be repeatedly exposed to barn air before their 1st birth day for a total time of 6 weeks.

Don't know about you, but that hay-cowshit-freshly tossed oat smell is something special. Kinda like how smelling a campfire triggers that spot in your brain that says "safety."

Re:Something missing in the head

[mjwx]

Not true, stop repeating this. It's not a partisan issue.

Indeed. Anti-vaccination beliefs don't follow the usual political polarization.

Right-wing kooks see vaccinations as a government conspiracy. Left-wing kooks see vaccinations as a corporate conspiracy. Moderates vaccinate their kids.

This,

This kind of nutty thinking is the fault of extremism, not of any particular left/right view. In Australia, Anti-Vax typically follows the well-off hippie crowds who aren't short of a few bob but are typically far left voters (well far left for Australians) which we call "Champagne Socialists" here in the UK. Australia tends not to have the far-right religious kooks that plague the US, at least not in the numbers the US has and the few that they have are far more concerned in getting the government to ban porn and filter the websites they don't like.

The opposition to extremists is not an opposing form of extremist, but rather moderates.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Then it sounds like the problem will take care of itself. (almost two birds one stone sort of thing...)

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Might be fun to send a kid with the measles scampering thru one of those anti-vaxer rallies. Or maybe some kid with Rubella. Give the kid good makeup so that they can infect the whole crowd. Yes I am that evil at this point.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

First time I've seen orthodox Jews described as "left-leaning." Willful stupidity knows no political affiliation.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Hot lead vaccination lol

If the dose is large enough, hot lead vaccination GUARANTEES the person will NEVER get the disease (or any other disease; it's the universal vaccination!)

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Delivered via mechanism similar to tranquilizer dart and aired as a reality TV show where we round up the anti-vaxxers in a pen and have a contest between two teams to see who can vaccinate the most? I'd watch that.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, that's not what I meant. They could be from poorer parts of Russia.
Doesn't matter where they're from - it wasn't a racist reference I was making.
But, there are countries where things like this exists and allowing them easy
entry into the U.S.A. is just wrong...

CAP === 'harbor'

Re:Something missing in the head

[hai_Priesty]

So why is the anti-vaxxer movement so heavily tied in many countries to the especially affluent, highly educated?

One contributor might be their lack of experience - first hand witness or heard - of all the horrors of communicable diseases which killed and ruined so many lives in the poorer countries. Most people from rich countries haven't seen an iron lung before unless they're very old.

Measles in USA, even at 387 cases this year, is probably perceived as a very remote threat, "things that just doesn't happen often in developed region; not in my neighborhood", compared to other perceived threats like drowning from the swimming pool, gun killings, or even (incorrect assessment) death from shark attack at their Florida beach.

Perhaps a little related, a tiny minority of highly educated, latte sipping youngsters supporting full fledged Communism while having lived nothing but a life of affluence struck me as having a similar vibe as Anti-vaxxers; people with first hand experience of full fledged Communism abhor it like the plague.

Re:Something missing in the head

[jeff4747]

Here's my guess. They've become so specialized in the areas that they teach, that they've become literal retards outside of it

This isn't unique to the highly educated. Your average plumber is not going to do all that well on an astrophysics test even though they are astonishingly good at plumbing.

The difference is these people believe that they are smart due to their greater educational attainment. So they assume they are smart in every subject, even when they're woefully uneducated in that subject since it was not part of their degree program.

If you'd like an example, take a gander at pretty much any Slashdot article regarding, say, Climate Change. There'll be a whole lot of IT folks who are absolutely sure they are smart in climatology, despite knowing very little about it. It's not like you need a doctorate to fall into this "I'm smart at everything" trap.

Re:Something missing in the head

[jeff4747]

Speaking of a sense of proportion.... in the United States you're three times as likely to die from a shark attack (1 death per year on average) as you are from from the measles (1 death every 3 years on average from 387 reported measles cases per year).

That rate is because of vaccinations. Anti-vaxxers are working very, very hard to increase that rate. So saying it's currently low doesn't tell you shit about how dangerous anti-vaxxers are.

Also, death is not the only complication from measles.

Re: Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

You can dig up the articles on it from the globe and mail, or ottawa times if you're really interested in it.

No, I can't, perhaps they don't exist, but the reports say that opportunity costs are the primary reason for partial vaccination. That is, parents are too busy working.

Perhaps you just misread something.

You do that a lot. Remember when you were confused about who did what in Alberta?

Re:Something missing in the head

[jeff4747]

What did you discover?

That the rate of complications from a vaccine is one in 10 million-ish or higher. The rate of complications from the diseases they prevent is about 1 in 1000-ish (numbers obviously vary by vaccine and disease).

Also, those complications from vaccines are mostly allergic reactions. Which are 1) pretty easily treatable, and 2) usually detected fairly early in the patient's life, so that they can be avoided in the future.

Deaths "caused" by the MMR vaccine: 2. Total. One was an advanced leukemia patient who was given the shot because of risk of exposure due to people like you. The other was a baby, and privacy regulations are hiding most of the information.

Since measles deaths alone exceeded that total in the four months of 2019, you'd have to be an utter and complete moron to think vaccines are higher risk.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Mashiki]

You're making the assumption that a person is smart based on their greater educational attainment, instead of understanding that the person is good at memorization and returning rote answers. Smart is a whole different ballgame. The funny thing with your plumber, is they probably have a better grasp of climate then your average /. does. Because one of the key points is understanding frost and heave information for laying pipelines for example.

Re:Something missing in the head

[jeff4747]

In the USA vaccine makers have blanket immunity from lawsuit.

You misunderstand the law. It's not that they are immune to lawsuits. The government has assumed the liability.

So you can indeed sue due to vaccine injury. You'll just be suing the government instead of a corporation.

And you don't actually have to sue. The government set up a vaccine injury program where you can file a claim and get paid without a lawsuit. You are still free to sue if you'd like.

Also, the FDA stops a whole lot more vaccines than lawsuits ever could. It's not like there's nothing between the corporation coming up with something and the free market, as you imply. And if you want to claim regulatory capture, you'd have to show some vaccines that would not pass trials yet got released.

use the old familiar trick of adding mercury to boost the vaccine production in some batches?

:faceplam:

Thiomersal is a preservative. It has nothing do do with boosting production rates. It was introduced into vaccines in order to let doctors use one vial to treat multiple patients. Pull out a new, empty syringe, fill it with a dose of vaccine from a vial, give the patient the shot, toss the syringe. The alternative is syringes pre-loaded with vaccine, which cost you a lot more money.

Thiomersal is also ethyl-mercury, which you pee out. Not methyl-mercury that stays in your system. If you want to say something stupid like "it's got mercury so it's all the same!!!" consider ethanol vs methanol. One will get you drunk. One will kill you very quickly. They're almost identical. Ethyl-mercury vs methyl-mercury is similar.

So, congrats on making vaccines cost more. Also at a higher profit to "big pharma". Also, Thiomersal was removed from childhood vaccines in 2000, with no reduction in autism rates, so you did all this for nothing.

Before you go off half cocked, don't forget, migrants carry disease

Only if the vaccination rate in their country is lower than the vaccination rate in the US.

And since you're making a very obvious dogwhistle, the vaccination rate in Central and South American countries is higher than the US.

migrants expose themselves and their new host community to new strains of pathogens

This doesn't matter for the MMR vaccine. The different strains on the planet are still covered by the vaccine. You need a high-mutation-rate disease like influenza for strains to be relevant.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

"I saw it on TV therefore its true!"

You have no sense of self-awareness.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Fair enough. No disrespect intended.

My point though was that the source of the problem is people willingly not using a solution. I'm not really emotionally invested in the antivaxxer thing one way or another, but it's clear to me, those who choose not to vaccinate; have the ability to do so because "everybody else" does. The problem is somebody chose not to vaccinate, and nothing bad happened, and they shared their story. Very much one of those early adopter perks, provided you don't live long enough to see it crash.

So, my point is, it really shouldn't matter if a traveler was vaccinated or not, if Americans that could be vaccinated were. I say could, because part of the reason vaccinations work is because of this general "blanket coverage". It's always been known that people with certain sensitivities or other medical conditions simply cant be vaccinated. I for example can't have most anti-biotics due to sensitivities, but I realize that doesn't make the drugs fundamentally bad, they've saved lives. But people who cant be vaccinated are (or *were*) still relatively safe because the disease can't thrive with most everybody immune to it.

Much to your point though, maybe this self induced tragedy (self meaning us, people collectively) should compel the world governments to apply more restrictions on both thier citizens and visitors abroad. Which is a shame, because personally, I think we need a little less government.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

I count more like 13...
Table looks fairly similar for Germany:
https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/Kommissionen/STIKO/Empfehlungen/Aktuelles/Impfkalender.pdf;jsessionid=A848332D6D89E23ABA0E4023652198BA.1_cid298?__blob=publicationFile
The really important ones are visible by having a N in the right-most column (which means that it's recommended even adults get the vaccination if they are not protected).
The ones with N in the middle area are the ones you can also just have your child vaccinated later, if you really are too scared of "all at once".
Which should also drive home that the reason to have all those so early is because there's simply no measureable risk or issue with it.
If there was, the vaccinations could be done later.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Rob Y.]

The right has a reflexive reaction to anything coming from the government, and the left has a reflexive reaction to anything coming from business. So both sides of the partisan divide have their own irrational reasons for this stupidity.

Government isn't always evil, and corporations aren't either. But both sometimes are. What's a citizen to do?

Trust the scientists, maybe. But of course, conspiracy theorists on the right don't trust scientists because their findings (on climate change, at least) are counter to the interests of the funders of all things right - so distrust of science must be sown on the right. And conspiracy theorists on the left don't trust medical science because its corporate funders are all too willing to hawk incomplete research to sell product. Of course, there's government-funded science, but wait - government!.

Personally, I cross my fingers an hope the statistics will favor me. I'd rather have herd immunity and avoid an epidemic than avoid the one in a hundred million risk that a vaccination will harm me. But I have no illusions that if thimerosol actually did cause autism, it's makers would be working to suppress that finding. But guess what. I'd trust government scientists to get the word out before I'd trust the makers of thimerosol to do it. And, of course, if we actually made bribery of government illegal in any practical way (with, y'know, actual punishments), I'd trust them even more...

Re:Something missing in the head

[Straumli Perversion]

I see the opposite, actually. I'm old enough that I remember when getting the measles, mumps, or chicken pox was a normal occurrence. Kids stayed home so they didn't infect everyone else until the worst of it passed. I don't remember a panic about people dying from the disease or anything. It was unpleasant, but just a part of growing up.

If I had kids, I would get them vaccinated because those diseases are no fun and why go through it if you don't have to? Why take the chance of getting complications? But I'm not concerned that we'll end up with a scenario like Stephen King's The Stand if we don't.

Re: Something missing in the head

[phantomfive]

Yearly fu vaccines are of questionable value. Unless you're high-risk, or interact with high-risk people a lot, you can probably just skip it. It's not the same as measles.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

$0, retard

Re:Something missing in the head

[jeff4747]

You're making the assumption that a person is smart based on their greater educational attainment

Nope. Try reading my post again. I make no claim about whether or not a person is actually smart.

Re: Something missing in the head

[js290]

For the most part, vaccines also work at the individual level. In most individuals, the vaccine actually does prevent them from getting the disease.

Except for the ones that they don't work on. How does one validate they are getting the therapeutic effct from the vax and not the side effect?

Some people have natural immunity, and dont need a vaccine. Some people are asymptomatic carriers - they carry a virus, but it doesnt make them sick. Some people have defective immune systems, and vaccines dont work. Vaccines operate at population level, not individual.

— Mactator (@MactatorMaximus) February 1, 2019

THE VAX ISSUE FOR ME IS SIMPLE: The issue is not the efficacy of vaccines but the vaccine obligation. Why are they mandatory when they have no undergone RCT or double blind testing like any other drug? Why "confuse" two subjects so differently? We dont because of profit. https://t.co/1AFfBlwI1V

— Jack Kruse (@DrJackKruse) March 5, 2018

Re: Something missing in the head

[js290]

Yes, a few weeks after receiving her dose, she exhibited symptoms of measles.

Some people have natural immunity, and dont need a vaccine. Some people are asymptomatic carriers - they carry a virus, but it doesnt make them sick. Some people have defective immune systems, and vaccines dont work. Vaccines operate at population level, not individual.

— Mactator (@MactatorMaximus) February 1, 2019

I got mine 3 years after the vaccine.

— Jack Kruse (@DrJackKruse) February 1, 2019

Re:Something missing in the head

[Darinbob]

Well, most staunchly religious Christians have no problem with vaccination. There are a few people in sects that are opposed to vaccines they're relatively a small minority, and further they were opposed to vaccines from before Andrew Wakefield and are opposed to a lot of modern medicines in general. I remember from elementary school in the 60s that it typically caused some confusion or humor when some kid wasn't allowed to get vaccinated along with everyone else.

Re: Something missing in the head

[js290]

The "you can even get sick from the vaccine" only relates to a small fraction of vaccines (Attenuation Vaccines) where the virus in the vaccine is not euthanized. The Measles Vaccine happens to be this special type, however AFAIK the patient have to suffer from immunosuppression in order to be susceptible for being infected bu such vaccines.

THE VAX ISSUE FOR ME IS SIMPLE: The issue is not the efficacy of vaccines but the vaccine obligation. Why are they mandatory when they have no undergone RCT or double blind testing like any other drug? Why "confuse" two subjects so differently? We dont because of profit. https://t.co/1AFfBlwI1V

— Jack Kruse (@DrJackKruse) March 5, 2018

Re:Something missing in the head

[Darinbob]

I got a set of Sparcstations from someone whose wife insisted that they had to go. I don't understand the attitude, it's probably better if your spouse's vice is playing with dusty computer rather than hanging out at the bar or getting a giant motorcycle.

Re: Something missing in the head

[phantomfive]

Yeah that's true, it's like giving a gift to your kid, "now you don't have to go through what I went through!" In terms of suffering, vaccines are way better than the disease, even without the risk. If you don't realize that, and all you see is the child crying when he/she gets injected, then your perception is different.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Darinbob]

Poor often means both parents have to work just to make ends meet, and therefore home schooling is not an option. There are exceptions of course. Affluent doesn't necessarily mean rich enough to pay the extremely high costs of private school but they probably have a spouse staying home all day. There are exceptions there too.

Lots of exceptions, I know poor people who sent kids to private schools (with scholarships, grants, etc) and very rich people who sent the kids to public schools.

Re: Something missing in the head

[phantomfive]

97% of the measles vaccines (2 doses of MMR) are effective.

Re: Something missing in the head

[illiac_1962]

Relax. How is this for a conservative view: If you want vaccinated, cool. If you don't want vaccinated, cool. Leave people the fuck alone! That's my stance. If I'm vaccinated I have nothing to worry about, right?

Re:Something missing in the head

[thegarbz]

It's a lack of critical thinking skills and/or logical reasoning ability.

Critical thinking and logical reasoning is precisely what cements their beliefs when presented with incorrect information. If they can be accused of anything it's suffering from severe observer bias, but there are many well educated anti-vaxxers who are perfectly capable of thinking.

Re: Something missing in the head

[illiac_1962]

So, they were forced into rationalizing it as safe without expert knowledge? And that's better?

Re:Something missing in the head

[thegarbz]

in the United States you're three times as likely to die from a shark attack (1 death per year on average) as you are from from the measles

You can thank vaccines for that.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

It's almost as bad as the people who support importing millions upon millions of people from the third world with third world diseases and then scratch their heads when the crime and diseases of the third world turn up in the United States.

Oh please, you said as if the U.S. is so innocent and pure. In other words, Americans aren't humans because humans aren't pure and innocent. Maybe Americans are aliens!

Re:Something missing in the head

[cayenne8]

Honestly, I wouldn't be nearly so mad at the anti-vaxxers if they were only hurting themselves. Unfortunately, since they are helping to spread contagious diseases, they're not.

But, aren't the anti-vaxxers mostly spreading it to each other, and therefore taking themselves out of the 'pool' so to speak?

Re:Something missing in the head

[thegarbz]

Most parents nowadays have no first hand knowledge

You don't need first hand knowledge. You need to trust the experts whom you charge with helping you make informed decisions.

How many anti-vaxxers decided to get pregnant and lead their baby to full term with no medical help at all?

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

The world is in the middle of a big political realignment. The Left-Right dichotomy is slowly giving way to a new one, Liberal-Populist

It explains a lot of puzzling things, like why Anti-Vaxxers can be described as both far-left and far-right. Both groups are strongly populist.

At first it seems absurd, but Bernie Sanders supporters and Trump supporters have much more in common than each-other than either groups have with political moderates or centrists.

Re:Something missing in the head

[parkinglot777]

So why is the anti-vaxxer movement so heavily tied in many countries to the especially affluent, highly educated? They wouldn't get where they are lacking critical thinking skills and/or logical reasoning ability. Hell there's massive swaths of people teaching in universities(i.e. subject expert professors) here in Canada, and they're the core demographic of the anti-vaxxer movement.

Here is my opinion on your question because I'm seeing a similar situation -- bias reasoning. When someone is very bias toward a certain topic, the higher intelligent the person is, the more bias the person goes into the topic. As a result, the person can come up with any reasoning to support the person's point of view. The problem is that the person does not see his/her fallacy of the reasoning and will not accept any counter reasoning at all. It is very difficult for one to see one's own wrong. This similar issue applies to any other thing else including politic.

Re:Something missing in the head

[sjames]

Not really misleading. Some doctors are spreading them out, but nevertheless, the recommendation I linked is direct from the CDC. I suspect those some doctors have recognized the excess and don't want the parents to choose none.

Re:Something missing in the head

[sjames]

There is a wide gulf between everything must be sterile and 19 vaccinations in 6 months.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

At first it seems absurd, but Bernie Sanders supporters and Trump supporters have much more in common than each-other than either groups have with political moderates or centrists.

This was obvious if you looked at the exit poll data from the 2016 primaries. But it didn't fit anyone's narrative, so nobody reported on it.

Re: Something missing in the head

[cayenne8]

Waiting for people to die doesn't help either. See gun control.

OH please....the gun control measure being brough up now do virtually nothing but stop or hinder law abiding US gun owners that are of no threat to anyone.

If they were serious, they'd go after in full force the main source of gun deaths in the US...gang members using handguns, that are illegally obtained (ie stolen).

But no, they're going after semi-automatic rifles that are rarely used in gun violence deaths, I think last study was maybe 400/yr?

Read this interesting article from NY Times....

The gun control measures they're screaming about now largely are ineffective and the previous "assault weapons ban" did little to curb things (remember Columbine was during the first ban)...and once the ban was lifted, the crime rate due to semi-auto rifles, like the AR-15 never rose.

And to clarify...the US public does NOT have ready access to "Assault Weapons"...those are fully automatic fire select weapons. The AR-15 and other commonly possessed and used rifles in the US are semi-automatic, one bullet fired per trigger actuation, rather than fully automatic where the gun keeps firing with one trigger pull and doesn't stop till you either release the trigger or run out of ammo.

If you're going to scream for more gun control, at least do it with an educated insight as to what actually might help.

Re:Something missing in the head

[sjames]

Look at table 1 in your link from the perspective of a nervous new parent who has seen ample evidence of over-medicalization already, as well as evidence that pharmaceutical companies really are out to gouge us for every penny they can squeeze out. They will be comparing the recommendations to their own childhood immunization in the '80s and their parents' in the '60s.

Re: Something missing in the head

[js290]

97% of the measles vaccines (2 doses of MMR) are effective.

Largest measles epidemic in North America in a decade--Quebec, Canada, 2011: contribution of susceptibility, serendipity, and superspreading events. - PubMed - NCBI https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p...

Abstract

BACKGROUND:

The largest measles epidemic in North America in the last decade, occurred in 2011 in Quebec, Canada, where rates of 1- and 2-dose vaccine coverage among children 3 years of age were 95%-97% and 90%, respectively, with 3%-5% unvaccinated.

METHODS:

Case patients identified through passive surveillance and outbreak investigation were contacted to determine clinical course, vaccination status, and possible source of infection.

RESULTS:

There were 21 measles importations and 725 cases. A superspreading event triggered by 1 importation resulted in sustained transmission and 678 cases. The overall incidence was 9.1 per 100,000; the highest incidence was in adolescents 12-17 years old (75.6 per 100,000), who comprised 56% of case patients. Among adolescents, 22% had received 2 vaccine doses. Outbreak investigation showed this proportion to have been an underestimate; active case finding identified 130% more cases among 2-dose recipients. Two-dose recipients had milder illness and a significantly lower risk of hospitalization than those who were unvaccinated or single-dose recipients.

CONCLUSIONS:

A chance superspreading event revealed an overall level of immunity barely above the elimination threshold when unexpected vulnerability in 2-dose recipients was taken into account. Unvaccinated individuals remain the immunization priority, but a better understanding of susceptibility in 2-dose recipients is needed to define effective interventions if elimination is to be achieved.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, it's a problem w/o a simple solution...
Thanks for your thoughtful response.

CAP === 'guttural'

Re:Something missing in the head

[drew_kime]

How many anti-vaxxers decided to get pregnant and lead their baby to full term with no medical help at all?

You seem to assume that's going to be a low number. You should read some mommy blogs.

Re: Something missing in the head

[phantomfive]

Not sure what your point is. I see the numbers and they seem reasonable.

Re: Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

What youâ(TM)re missing is the children who for one reason or another canâ(TM)t get vaccinated. Children such as my nephew who had leukemia. Because of chemotherapyâ(TM)s effect on their immune system, they canâ(TM)t be immunized. They rely on herd immunity to ... well, not die.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Jason Levine]

That's true. And many parents (myself included) do trust doctors/experts even though they have no first hand information on the diseases that vaccines prevent.

To expand my previous comment, herd immunity was also a double-edged sword that let the anti-vax movement grow. When the number of anti-vaxxers was low, they could skip the vaccinations and say "see? our children are just fine" because their kids were still protected by herd immunity. It helped to reduce the perceived threat of the diseases while they increased the perceived risk of the vaccines. Now that the movement has grown, though, they're breaking herd immunity which means we're getting outbreaks.

Also, don't underestimate the stupidity of some people. There are all too many people who think they don't need doctors or professional medical help to have a baby. They just need some crystals, homeopathic remedies, essential oils, or whatever other fad junk science they heard about online. After all, a social media post shared by a non-medical professional is just as good as medical advice from someone with years of training who has personally examined you, right?

Re: Something missing in the head

[sjames]

Note that in most of that list, it is given only to specific high risk groups. In most of those countries, the ones given at birth are for when the mother is infected.

Re:Something missing in the head

[pigwin32]

You don't need first hand knowledge. You need to trust the experts whom you charge with helping you make informed decisions.

I'll see your experts and raise you my experts. Which experts do you trust implicitly? Maybe the experts in the oil companies who knew about climate change and didn't inform us? Maybe the doctors who promoted smoking back in the day? The doctors who prescribe opioids for minor pain despite the epidemic of opioid abuse? What about Bayer which says Roundup doesn't cause cancer, despite two current cases where the jury found that it does? Perhaps the experts that said Sadam had WOMD resulting in a war we are still feeling the effects of today. Your informed decisions are only informed if you have all the information. I try to avoid letting "experts" make my decisions for me unless I'm confident in their expertise.

Re: Something missing in the head

[js290]

Not sure what your point is. I see the numbers and they seem reasonable.

What's the point of this thread? More measles cases than previous year... yet we can't be certain the measles vax does as it claims...

CONCLUSIONS:

A chance superspreading event revealed an overall level of immunity barely above the elimination threshold when unexpected vulnerability in 2-dose recipients was taken into account.., but a better understanding of susceptibility in 2-dose recipients is needed to define effective interventions if elimination is to be achieved.

Re: Something missing in the head

[phantomfive]

If 3% of the population is unvaccinated, and another 3% has vaccines that don't work, I would by probability expect about 50% of the sick cases to be among vaccinated people. It looks like the vaccines are working.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Chris Mattern]

But, aren't the anti-vaxxers mostly spreading it to each other, and therefore taking themselves out of the 'pool' so to speak?

Mostly, but not entirely. There are those who have legitimate medical reasons they can't be vaccinated, most of them because they have a compromised immune system. There's also a small percentage of people vaccinated for whom it doesn't "take"; they don't become immune. This happens at random and there's no easy way to test for it. Under universal vaccination, these people are protected by "herd immunity" (which is just a fancy way to say "since almost everybody's immune, there's nobody to catch the disease from"). But every person who could have be vaccinated but wasn't puts these people at risk.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Seeing as you mentioned getting vaccines every year I'm assuming you're talking about the flu vaccine. A lot of places are starting to offer flu vaccines in a nasal form as an alternative for children, aichmophobes, and people who may otherwise have issues receiving injections(deep/small veins, medical conditions, etc). If getting an injection affects you as severely as you claim then you may want to "shop around" for a vaccination center that offers the nasal option next flu season.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Chris Mattern]

There's also the fact that vaccination holds out the promise of completely wiping out a disease (like we did smallpox). But anti-vaxxers are working to ensure reservoirs of infectious diseases remain in existence.

Re: Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Spoken like a true liberal. So tolerant!

Re: Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet you also believe the earth is overpopulated. So, when you want to fix that problem itâ(TM)s ok if someone elseâ(TM)s kid dies, but definitely not anyone in your family.

Re: Something missing in the head

[c6gunner]

I don't see the relevance. His argument was that vaccines given at birth can't work, and that vaccinating infants is somehting only the USA does. Whether it's being given to all infants or just a subset has no bearing on the veracity of those statements.

Re: Something missing in the head

[js290]

If 3% of the population is unvaccinated, and another 3% has vaccines that don't work, I would by probability expect about 50% of the sick cases to be among vaccinated people. It looks like the vaccines are working.

You may be committing base rate fallacy: An Intuitive (and Short) Explanation of Bayes’ Theorem

The vax gets credit for all negative cases (including unvaxxed)? Clearly there are positive cases for those who were vaxxed; that is the vax did not work for them.

Some people have natural immunity, and dont need a vaccine. Some people are asymptomatic carriers - they carry a virus, but it doesnt make them sick. Some people have defective immune systems, and vaccines dont work. Vaccines operate at population level, not individual.

— Mactator (@MactatorMaximus) February 1, 2019

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

If all the "research' you do is anti-vax research, then you will get a distorted picture. I think the anti-vaxers go in with mind-set waiting to be validated. So they "research" anti-vax stuff. Lo and behold, their preconceptions are confirmed. Now they are "informed" anti-vaxers.

They are not unlike the 9/11 conspiracy crowd. They band together for mutual recursive backscratching and no new scientifically vetted information is allowed. Try arguing with one and sooner or later you run into, "you haven't seen the soooper-secret evidence that I have". Oh, yeah, that must be it, I've not yet been gone through the double-secret initiation to receive the Valuable Truth. It's just another cult.

Likewise, if all the research you do is to trust the CDC and read other pro-vaccination research, you will also get a distorted picture of reality.

Re: Something missing in the head

[phantomfive]

No, I think my analysis is correct. I've spent a lot of time working with Bayes' theorem, so I understand the principle. I do make mistakes sometimes so I would appreciate if you double-checked my work.

Re:Something missing in the head

[bloodhawk]

Done plenty of research. The death rates from the diseases that you get vaccines from are hundreds of times higher than the risk of death or complications from the vaccines. The reality is anti vaxxers are the ones that obviously don't do the research otherwise they would be terrified of the potential consequences of not have them vaccinated.

Re: Something missing in the head

[sjames]

It shows that perhaps the schedule and recommendations in the U.S. are a bit much (the broader subject of the sub-thread).

But in answer to the rest, the risk for a baby born to an already infected mother is sufficient that even a small chance that the vaccine might actually have an effect is worth it. They also give IVIG in those cases.

Re:Something missing in the head

[pigwin32]

The consequences of not having children vaccinated are only realised if the children catch the diseases. Do you vaccinate your children against all diseases for which vaccines are available? The reality is there is insufficient verifiably independent information available publicly for people to make informed decisions. When we were looking for information to support our intention to vaccinate our children we found lots of hyperbole and graphic images of the effects of disease from our public health system while there was an endless supply of "information", some credible and some not, from those against vaccination. Our children are vaccinated against some diseases but we do not vaccinate just because of "death rates from the diseases".

Re: Something missing in the head

[c6gunner]

It shows that perhaps the schedule and recommendations in the U.S. are a bit much (the broader subject of the sub-thread).

It shows no such thing; you can just as easily conclude that the schedule in other places is rather not enough. Unless you've done comparative studies of outcomes you're just operating on your own biases.

But in answer to the rest, the risk for a baby born to an already infected mother is sufficient that even a small chance that the vaccine might actually have an effect is worth it.

If there's even a small chance that it'll work, then the claim that infants have no immune system is bunk.

Of course we know that it's bunk anyway; you certainly won't hear such nonsense from any medical professionals. And we know that the efficacy of infant HepB vaccination is far better than "a small chance".

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m...

Re: Something missing in the head

[sjames]

First, I have never claimed that babies have no immune system (that was someone else). I do know that many vaccines are delayed because the left over antibodies from the mother would prevent a sufficient reaction to the vaccine to confer immunity.

I also haven't claimed that HepB vaccine at birth for babies whose mothers have Hep B is a bad idea. Most countries only give Hep B vaccine at birth if the mother has Hep B.

I see no reason why a baby not in that risk group can't wait on Hep B vaccine unless a family member has it.

Re: Something missing in the head

[c6gunner]

You never claimed much of anything; you just like making insinuations which you can then back away from by saying you never actually said it.

I'm not sure why you seem to think that "I see no reason" is an argument for anything.

Re: Something missing in the head

[sjames]

Go back and read the thread, you seem confused as to who said what. As for I see no reason, unless it's a bouncing baby vampire, how likely is it in it's first year to encounter infected blood in the U.S.?

Re: Something missing in the head

[c6gunner]

Ah, suddenly "even a little" isn't enough. Funny how that works.

You are far too disingenuous for me to take this conversation seriously any longer.

Re: Something missing in the head

[sjames]

You seem to be in a bit of a mental tailspin there, PULL UP!

Re:Something missing in the head

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

So why is the anti-vaxxer movement so heavily tied in many countries to the especially affluent, highly educated?

Wealth has no connection to a person's ability to reason logically, in fact it seems just the opposite.

The fact is that if you're wealthy, oftentimes you have few, if any, real challenges in life. You never have to figure anything out, struggle with solving everyday problems, and your financial insulation from the real world means you rarely have to make any hard decisions.

So you're almost never challenged or forced to do the rudimentary learning things that the non-wealthy do. For example, you may never set foot in a grocery store because you have staff to do your grocery shopping. This means you don't ever have to look at prices or try and figure out what's a better deal- 3 for $5 or 4 for $6.

And what's worse, even if you did have to go grocery shopping, the prices don't mean shit to you. So what if there are two bottles of shampo, one costs $8 and one costs $75. Do you give a shit? No.

(I mean, do you think Bezos or Musk actually look at the price tag on anything? Maybe for academic purposes, but not because it matters.)

Your wealth basically means you coast through life without understanding or knowing some of the simplest things.

For example, look at Trump- he's obviously never set foot in a grocery store, and we know that for a fact because he's said repeatedly that you need to have picture ID to buy groceries. Yes, he said that. Besides Donald Trump, who doesn't know that you don't need picture ID to buy groceries?

So yeah- your wealth insulates you from much of the world's harsh realities as well as its minor inconveniences. You never have to learn anything because you have people to do it for you. You never have to change a light bulb, do laundry, wash a dish, gas up your car, vacuum the carpet, find car insurance, pay a utility bill, sit on hold waiting for customer service, etc etc etc.

You live in a fantasy world where practically everything you want just appears with no effort on your part.

Seriously, most people born into great wealth could barely fill out a library card. They are some of the dumbest people alive because they never had to learn anything.

Re:Something missing in the head

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

I'm still not convinced that any of the flat-earthers are actually serious.

Sadly, some of them are 100% serious. I kinda doubted too, but there are more than a few 'true believers' out there.

They're not really any different than the "moon-landing-was-a-hoax" people, and there are tons of those clowns.

Dunning-Kruger for the win.

Re:Something missing in the head

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

I was born before 1960 and I got measles. You can bet your ass I got my son vaccinated when it was time.

We had a neighbor who had polio. It didn't look like fun. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who refuses to shield a kid from that shouldn't be allowed to have children.

Re:Something missing in the head

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Speaking of a sense of proportion.... in the United States you're three times as likely to die from a shark attack (1 death per year on average) as you are from from the measles

1) Maybe that's because there's no anti-shark vaccine.

2) The reason so few people die from measles is because most people get vaccinated.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Mashiki]

The difference is these people believe that they are smart due to their greater educational attainment.

You're free to clarify it, if you think I'm failing to actually understand your PoV on it.

Re: Something missing in the head

[stealth_finger]

I'm not doing this again, but either get rid of all the guns or don't bother. You're right that handguns are the biggest problem and going after just rifles is pointless. All or nothing.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

We vaccinate against anything that our children have a chance of encountering. do we do malaria and other exotic diseases that are common but unlikely unless they travel , no. But only an idiot would choose not to vaccinate against measles, not only is there a decent chance of encountering it, most people during the initial highly contagious stages show zero symptoms and the death rate from measles is thousands of times higher than the complication rate for the vaccine. Good information and stats are not hard to find. The world has a long set of historical and current data on the topic, you don't have to trust anyones analysis but your own and it I s pretty hard to come to any conclusion except for it being stupid not to vaccinate.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Sharks won't suddenly multiply, grow legs and invade the US in millions.
Measles, as long as it exists, is always just a decade (or so) of complacency away from infecting 100 000s per year, with 10s to 100s dying every year.
Also it's not really right to only consider death, hospitalization and long term health effects are pretty relevant issues as well.
Lastly, it is a question of cost.
If you could at minimal cost prevent those 24 deaths from train crashes would you then say "let's put it into perspective with the deaths from driving. It's nothing. So let's not do that minimal investment to make trains safer".
That argument is nonsense, 1 death per 3 years is too much if it's easily preventable, and 1000s of deaths per year are acceptable if there simply is no reasonable way to prevent them.

Re: Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Few enough people are keen on staying in a hospital to start with anyway.
Is death really all people care about?
Do people regularly run across icy roads, because you almost certainly won't die, just hurt yourself?
Do people generally jump out of the first floor window instead of taking the stairs, after all it is much faster?
The vaccines would be totally worth it even if nobody ever died from measles (but the number of deaths is well above the 1 in 100000 lie someone continue to spread here, even though I would admit that the official 1 in 1000 number might no longer quite apply in modern societies - then again, if we suddenly had 1 million cases a year we certainly couldn't give every case as much attention as now).

Re:Something missing in the head

[bungo]

Being honest, later on I did also have to get rid of my Sparcstations (4 SS20s, plus a couple of Tadpole Sparc laptops). I can't remember where the SS20s went, but the Tadpoles went to someone working on the OpenBSD project.

I also got rid of a HP 9000 (J282, I think), a 8-CPU RS/6000, a Dec Alphaserver, and a Sunblade 150.

On the bright side, I do have a dual socket Xeon E5-2690, 192 GB ram with a stack of SSDs. Less room heating and way more processing power of anything I had before. With Redhat and VMWare Workstation, I still get to play with many different 'computers'.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're not for shooting people who litter on the spot you should not ask for thrash to be thrown in the proper bin at all?
But I actually DO think that people traveling internationally without being able to show they are up-to-date on vaccination should either not be allowed to travel at all or remain in quarantine.
For diseases that are very rare or have no vaccines it is really not practical or sensible however.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

So why is the anti-vaxxer movement so heavily tied in many countries to the especially affluent, highly educated?

Because we don't live a in meritocracy. One's affluence and education level aren't completely a result of one's merit (in intelligence, logical thinking skills, etc)

Another reason is that being good/smart at one thing doesn't necessarily mean you'll be good/smart at other things. And certainly not in everything. Somebody smart at making a lot of money and book learnin' might be terrible at, say, surviving in the woods or defending themselves in a fist fight or in this case, figuring out what's best for you/your child's health.

Re: Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice projecting there, old guy. You're obviously very skilled with a lot of practice!

Re:Something missing in the head

[Opportunist]

They're afraid to end up with an autistic kid. And autistic kids are more work than dead kids.

Maybe someone should tell them that measles aren't necessarily just eliminating the problem but that there are quite a few complications that make them end up with a crippled child for life?

Re:Something missing in the head

[Opportunist]

And if your kid doesn't have measles, just draw some dots on their face and let them join the fun.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot one important point, at least for European countries: The vaccine injury program was set up to make it MUCH EASIER to be compensated for those injured.
Because it is in society's interest, so it is better to have some not entirely justified payouts than people having to fear financial losses from getting vaccinated.

Re: Something missing in the head

[Opportunist]

I always thought that's the libertarian view? I mean, like, do as you please as long as you let me do as I please, that's conservative now?

Re:Something missing in the head

[Opportunist]

It's not. The group of anti-vaxxers is neither conservative no liberal, neither poor nor rich. The only common denominator I have detected is a distrust of science and/or government. Sadly, this distrust of "scientific facts" doesn't lead to own research (personally I would base this on a lack of ability, i.e. missing prerequisite information and knowledge to actually DO own research) but instead to believing someone else. It's what we find abundant in various conspiracy circles: "I do not want A to be true, so I'll believe B without reason".

They "feel" that whatever they're told by science and/or government is wrong, so they search on the internet for "alternative views". And of course they'll find some and accept it, sadly without questioning or even reviewing the veracity, plausibility of at least possibility of that "alternative claim" because they match what they "feel". And now they have someone else saying what they "feel", so they feel vindicated and right.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

As a different point, I don't think your points are all that helpful to raise.
To start with, quarantining people has all kinds of issues, and simply make no sense given the ESTABLISHED alternatives.
There are countries you are only allowed into (and out of) if you can show you have been vaccinated for certain diseases. That could be applied to measles, without all the issues and unfairness of requiring a blanket quarantine.
But, imagine what the results would be: There would be no random outbreaks like now. People would become even more convinced the vaccines are "fake"/we would not be discussing counter-measures against falling vaccination rates.
Vaccination rates would fall even more, and suddenly the disease SOMEHOW makes it into the US and you have a huge epidemic on your hands.
It's a bit like the wildfire risk after years of no wildfires.
I find travel restrictions on unvaccinated people still worth a consideration, but it's not a fix to this problem.
(world-wide eradication however most definitely is a fix)

Re: Something missing in the head

[strikethree]

First of all new borns basically have no immune system. Vaccination before about 6 weeks is completely pointless

Nonsense. Newborns have a poorly developed immune system, but that's a far cry from "no immune system".

While technically correct (the best kind of correct!), your view was too narrow.

Here, let me clarify (in a non-hostile manner):

First of all new borns basically have no immune system.

I have bolded the relevant word. Be honest. Isn't it reasonable to equate "basically no immune system (functionality is a word that should have been added here for clarity, but the meaning is generally the same regardless)" to "Newborns have a poorly developed immune system"?

There are numerous different ways to word it. "basically none" and "poorly developed" really mean the same thing in this context.

It was not useful.

Your information was useful as was your ultimate point. On this one portion though, it seems rather nit-picky to bring it up because we can be certain that both statements are functionally the same.

Re:Something missing in the head

[strikethree]

What is insane about all of this is that some basic scientific knowledge and a 4 meter straight edge and a large body of water are all that is needed to *see* that Earth is round(ish) and you can even get pretty close to measuring the actual size. I did it myself when I was in the Navy and in the middle of the ocean, but it can be done from the shore:

Hold the straight edge over the horizon. Try to align the straight edge with the edge of the horizon. You can't. Why? Because the Earth is curved. Measure the difference between the straight edge and the horizon and with some simple math, you can get a rough measure of the size of the planet.

Without anything but some observations and some logic, you can also arrive at the Earth being round. This one is too long to describe for short attention span people but the essence is that round is the only acceptable shape for a planet of this size to be.

Ultimately, there is no way to decide that the planet is anything but round unless you believe that the Universe does not have universal principles that apply everywhere under all circumstances. Of course, once you hit "God did it", no amount of logic or reason will ever a/effect their "knowledge".

Re:Something missing in the head

[strikethree]

Yes, there are things that kill you other than measles. The difference is that measles is pretty easily preventable - people just have to get vaccinated.

Another aspect of this that you should address to these fuckers: The more hosts that a virus can live in, the more mutations that will occur. This speeds up the evolution of the virus and can lead to a strain that is much more terrible than *mere* measles.

Even further than that, a virus is a "living" "creature" that can reproduce exponentially, and once it gets to a certain level of "presence" the risk increase exponentially because there are people who can not be vaccinated or that the vaccination just didn't work for them.

On the one hand, I get a creepy feeling when I am told that everyone needs to get something injected to them. On the other hand, I have learned what this is all about and agree that everyone should be vaccinated, even if it is done at gun point with them kicking and screaming like any other wild animal would.

Re: Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

I find it ironic that measles is the poster child for vaccinations. It's not even that serious of a disease. My brother in law had it twice as a kid before he got vaccinated and it didn't even hardly affect him.

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

10000 vaccinations at a time

Can we try that with your kid?

Re:Something missing in the head

[Anonymous Coward]

In regards to the US, you're talking about a location where you're surrounded by an enormous amount of diabetes and other long-term diseases which have been systematically caused over the last several decades by our country's "war on fats". I see nothing wrong with people being a bit cynical about the government's stance on damn near anything after that. The next problem is that people are not given barely any useful information to review for themselves - they're going to be sitting in a doctor's office, given a choice between doing this vaccine or not, it's "suggested by some government agency", and many of them will have no background in material around it.

FWIW, I vaccinate the hell out of my kids, but I don't push a ton of blame on the others. Too bad the flu vaccine was worthless this year in the midwest. Maybe next year.

Re:Something missing in the head

[jeff4747]

You skipped over a very crucial word.

The difference is these people believe that they are smart

Here, lemme italicize it

The difference is these people believe that they are smart

They believe that they are smart. They actually fall on the typical distribution of intelligence. Perhaps with the very extreme "dumb" end cut off.

One of the ways you can tell they are not actually smart is they believe they are smart in every subject. Which is exactly the point I made above.

Re: Something missing in the head

[Mashiki]

No, I can't, perhaps they don't exist, but the reports say that opportunity costs are the primary reason for partial vaccination. That is, parents are too busy working.

So I guess that sure explains why parents can sign a waiver to grant a public health nurse the ability to give a vaccination right? I mean that's only been an option for oh 15 years or so across most of Canada.

Perhaps you just misread something.

Don't worry AC. If I actually misread something, you'd be crowing about it in any form except as a AC. Perhaps it's your inability to read that's stunting your ability to reason things out.

You do that a lot. Remember when you were confused about who did what in Alberta?

You mean that thing where I said the NDP were closing down coal power plants then, an AC kept screaming that it was really the PC party? Yes. I do indeed remember that.

Re:Something missing in the head

[jwhitener]

[quote]So why is the anti-vaxxer movement so heavily tied in many countries to the especially affluent, highly educated? [/quote]

Russia. Search for 'russia antivax'. Like messing with US politics, Russia is pushing dozens of unhealthy narratives at western democracies, seeking to weaken and destabilize them.

https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.2018.304567

Re:Something missing in the head

[jwhitener]

"there's a strong resurgence in conspiracy theories in general. It's social media spreading...."

Social media is the tool. But a lot of the rise in conspiracies, "everything is fake news", anti-vax, anti-science, etc, can be directly laid at the feet of Russia. They are very effectively hijacking social media and pushing about every harmful narrative they can to try to weaken and destabilize western democracies.

https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.2018.304567

I don't know how to make this happen, but we've got to find a way to counter misinformation faster in social media. And/or prevent hostile governments from being able to use it altogether. But that would likely be a game of whack'a'mole, so I'm not sure how to counter it.

Re: Something missing in the head

[angel'o'sphere]

Perhaps you have not realized yet, but it was obvious from the discussion: new born infants don't get a vaccine. They get anti bodies. Unfortunately the laymen english does not distinguish that.

So: no, a new born has no working immune system, that can work with 'standard vaccinations' no idea what you guys learn in school or in life. Before age of 6 weeks, it makes absolute zero sense to give a 'standard vaccine' (not antibodies, immunoglobin) to infants.

And we know that the efficacy of infant HepB vaccination is far better than "a small chance". Yes: because it is the HepB antibody, and not a vaccination!!

Stupidity at an all-time high

[Anonymous Coward]

Coincidence?

Interestingly...

[Anonymous Coward]

Interestingly, EVERYONE who got the measles had been vaccinated.

This fact has been suppressed by the mainstream news outlets.

Re: Interestingly...

[Anonymous Coward]

Not fake news
The outbreaks in clark county Washington only a couple were vaccinated. It was reported in the local and national news.
 

Re:Interestingly...

[stealth_finger]

Interestingly, EVERYONE who got the measles had been vaccinated.

This fact has been suppressed by the mainstream news outlets.

Vaccination isn't the same as immunisation. Hence two completely different words.

Re:Interestingly...

[CrimsonAvenger]

Interestingly, EVERYONE who got the measles had been vaccinated.

Citation?

I've seen several articles discussing the current outbreak as happening to people who were not vaccinated in areas where lack of vaccination was more common than normal for the USA as a whole....

Re:Interestingly...

[CrimsonAvenger]

Replying to myself.

A quick check of Clark County, WA, indicates that of 73 cases reported at the time of the article, 63 were NOT vaccinated, three had had only one vaccination (as opposed to the two that are standard), and the remaining seven were "vaccination status unknown".

So, I repeat, where is the evidence that "EVERYONE who got the measles had been vaccinated"? Evidence seems to support at least 90% NOT vaccinated....

Condemnation only causes wagon circling....

[Anonymous Coward]

People have experienced bad vaccine batches in all sorts of different medically curable diseases. They have had ill effects and sometimes have caused more harm than good.

Those people are a small minority of the overall number of people who get successfully vaccinated however.

Since we live in the internet age though those vocal few became legions. Their stories got shared and passed on and people who don't really have a lot of experience with good medicine and competent docs and healthcare professionals embraced them without question.

Before people condemn "them" they should take a long cold hard analytical look at themselves. Did you contribute in any small way to it? I don't think anyone could say they had no part, at least not anyone actively participating online, here....at /Â

Re:Condemnation only causes wagon circling....

[Anonymous Coward]

They can circle the wagons all they like. We, the sane, vastly outnumber them. We need to pass laws that restrict the dumb-dumbs from endangering the rest of us. There's no reason to placate them, or even condemn them. Just hit them with the law! That means, simply put.

No more exemption to vaccines except medical ones. This includes religious objections. They can go their own, weird private school that allows anti-vaxers if they don't like it.

Re: Condemnation only causes wagon circling....

[Anonymous Coward]

Heil Pharma!

Re:Condemnation only causes wagon circling....

[jeff4747]

Anti-vaxxers are lost. They will never accept that they were wrong from talking with an outsider.

Condemnation and mockery is intended to cause fewer people to become anti-vaxxers in the first place, because that is far more successful than attempting to change their minds after they only trust people selling them essential oils.

Eliminated?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your definition of eliminated is different from the the rest of the world. A resurgence can only happen from a non-zero point.

Re:Eliminated?

[Dog-Cow]

Your reading comprehension is non-existent, so there's no hope for a resurgence. Elimination is defined by region, not world-wide. The cases in the US spread from people who came from outside the US.

Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Drivers are required to carry liability insurance in case they hit someone. Shouldn't the unvaccinated also carry liability insurance in case they infect someone?

Re:Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

No. I am not responsible for your defective immune system that is unable to compete against measles. It is called evolution. The genetically defective are bread out of the gene pool.

Re: Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Except they are not anymore. Those with genetic defects are allowed to and oftened encouraged to survive by friends and relatives. While this is morally sound, it increases the likelyhood of propogation of defective and or damaged genetics re-entering the gene pool.

Your statement is correct in general for non-social organsims, however for social creatures (not just humans) it does not hold true in the same capacity.

Re:Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

Then I think you should stay away from babies and the elderly! Luckily, we already have a system in place that keeps certain people away from children, we just need to expand it a little in your case.

Re:Liability

[_Sharp'r_]

Do you know how rare of an event it is to die from the measles in the United States? At 387 cases/year, and a death rate of 1 in 1,000, that's about one death every three years.

Let me put it this way, about 17 people died from a confirmed negative reaction to the MMR vaccine in 2017 (most recent year I could find good data for).

Another point of comparison... 60,000 people die from the flu each year. Wouldn't it make sense to worry a little bit more about preventing the spread of the flu than about measles (a few cases mostly imported from abroad), at this point? You can influence that with sick leave policies, cultural changes like convincing people to wear medical masks when they walk around and are sick, etc... As bonus, that will all also have a slight positive impact by minimizing the spread of other diseases like measles a little bit.

You aren't going to have a meaningful impact on the one death every three years from the measles pretty much whatever you do, unless you're going massively intrusive, like 100% screening of everyone entering the country.

Re: Liability

[ruddk]

But why, pray tell, do you think the death count from measles are so low?

Re:Liability

[jeff4747]

The problem is it's difficult to prove a particular infection came from one person unless the disease is very rare.

Re:Liability

[drew_kime]

Let me put it this way, about 17 people died from a confirmed negative reaction to the MMR vaccine in 2017 (most recent year I could find good data for).

Got a cite for that? It sounds odd ... "about 17".

Re:Liability

[Anonymous Coward]

So you'd rather focus on changing entire cultural and societal norms around the flu when we can't even get people to consistently get a damn Measles shot, which is just about the easiest medical treatment possible? You don't often see someone advocate solving an easy problem with an available solution by tackling a much harder problem that will help with the easier problem if you happen to get it just right.

There's probably a reason for that.

basic stats?

[js290]

mean & variance? https://www.mathsisfun.com/dat...

Shill siren !

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't wait to see all the pro-vaccine shills suddenly come out of the woodwork for this article.

Some things you can say to push your message:
"Anti-vaxxers should not be allowed to have kids"
"Anti-vaxxers have low IQ's"
"I hope they've got money save for their kids funerals"

etc...

Re: Shill siren !

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm anti-vax... Come mod me down.

Re: Shill siren !

[Anonymous Coward]

I would, but it's not right to make fun of somebody so mentally disabled.

Re:Shill siren !

[Anonymous Coward]

How about we just don't allow your unvaccinated kids in our schools? Your days are numbered, pal.

Re:Shill siren !

[Anonymous Coward]

"Anti-vaxxers should not be allowed to have kids"
"Anti-vaxxers have low IQ's"
"I hope they've got money save for their kids funerals"
"Anti-vaxxers fart in the bathtub and bite the bubbles"
"Anti-vaxxers think the menstrual cycle has wheels"
"Anti-vaxxers are ridiculed (and rightly so) because they're ignorant fucktards"

Re:Shill siren !

[Anonymous Coward]

Why was the anit-vaxxer's three year old crying?
Mid-life crisis.

Why is it good to date an anti-vaxxer?
If she gets knocked up, you only pay child support for a few years.

Not vaccinating your child is basically having a very late-term abortion.

Seriously, anti-vaxxers are not just ultra-low IQ they are stupid beyond the ability of IQ to measure. Even if every horrible thing they believe about vaccine were true..WHICH IT ISN'T...vaccine would still be essential. These brainless toads murdering their children do not have a clue what the world was like 70 years ago; far fewer than 50% of live births lived to adulthood because so many children died of these preventable diseases. And many survivors had major disabilities as a result of these disease. The worst demonization of vaccine that these mental microbes can come up with is paradise compared to life before vaccine. The pain and suffering these diseases cause children is horrific, anti-vaxxers are pure evil to their cores for wanting to bring that back.

Re:Shill siren !

[Anonymous Coward]

They aren't "your" schools.

Re:Shill siren !

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes they are our schools, us as in the vast majority who aren’t dumbfucks.
Send your kids to school with the other retards offspring, where you can find out just how fucking stupid you are.

Re:Shill siren !

[Anonymous Coward]

of course they are, schools belong to society, society has rules that the mentally retarded anti vaxxers choose to ignore. Many countries are already banning unvaccinated kids from schools. If you are so committed to your religion then you can home school

Re: Shill siren !

[Anonymous Coward]

Heil Pharma!

Toss 'em into reeducation camps!

Heil Pharma!

Re:Shill siren !

[F.Ultra]

Pro-vaccine shills, is that another word for "we who hate disease"? Does that make you a pro-disease shill then?!

Say goodbye to the anti-vaxers.

[Anonymous Coward]

This latest outbreak is going to jump start more laws to stop this stupid crap. If you go to a public school I want no exceptions to MMR and DPT except medical ones. Don't like it? Pay for a private school that doesn't care. If that doesn't work, we need to stop the un-vaccinated from going into public places like grocery stores.

Lets clamp down on these jackasses until they can't live in the society without getting the vaccine, or all go live on their own private island.

Re:Say goodbye to the anti-vaxers.

[Anonymous Coward]

Forced medical procedures are a human and civil rights violation. End of story.

Re:Say goodbye to the anti-vaxers.

[Ichijo]

Then it sounds like you would choose option number two: go live on your own private island. That's fair.

Re:Say goodbye to the anti-vaxers.

[gravewax]

forced exposure to unnecessarily sick people is a basic human rights violation. End of Story.

Re:Say goodbye to the anti-vaxers.

[Anonymous Coward]

While the orange baboon is in White house, he will react by cutting out all state paid vaccines and remove safety regulations on vaccines as corporations need to protect their profits.

Re: Say goodbye to the anti-vaxers.

[astrofurter]

I'm gonna sue the MTA. No way they should be allowing people with the common cold to ride the Subway. What are they, deranged murderers??

Re: Say goodbye to the anti-vaxers.

[_Sharp'r_]

Naw, the flu. About 60,000 people in the United States die on average each year from the flu and people are worried about the (at the reported rate of 387/year w/measles) one person every three years in the United States who would die on average from measles.

Time to get a sense of proportion....

Re: Say goodbye to the anti-vaxers.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, let's not fight a preventable disease because there are other diseases which aren't (yet) preventable. Dear Madam and Sir, we hereby regrettably inform you that your kid, _Sharp'r_, has shown severe reasoning deficiencies and will have to repeat kindergarten.

Re:Say goodbye to the anti-vaxers.

[Anonymous Coward]

We need a national anti-vaxxer register.

Theres a sex offender register, why not an anti-vaxxer one?

Re: Say goodbye to the anti-vaxers.

[Anonymous Coward]

before measles was vaccinated for millions died from it.

Re: Say goodbye to the anti-vaxers.

[Anonymous Coward]

Even in the worst years in history the Flu does come close to the death rate of the measles. at its peak the flu kills around 500,000 a year. from a much lower infection rate the measles was killing millions per year in the 80's.

Re: Say goodbye to the anti-vaxers.

[jeff4747]

at the reported rate of 387/year w/measles

The rate is that low because of vaccinations. It's almost like you don't actually understand the subject.

Re:Say goodbye to the anti-vaxers.

[thegarbz]

This latest outbreak is going to jump start more laws to stop this stupid crap.

Nope. Because this is America and someone's believe in some sky daddy anti gubbmint rubbish trumps laws and for some arse stupid reason this is frequently upheld in courts.

Re:Say goodbye to the anti-vaxers.

[ImprovOmega]

This latest outbreak is going to jump start more laws to stop this stupid crap.

Nope. Because this is America and someone's believe in some sky daddy anti gubbmint rubbish trumps laws and for some arse stupid reason this is frequently upheld in courts.

It's not that so much (there are some with actual religious objections to any medical care, but they're super rare). The ones opposed to it for stupid reasons (autism! big pharma! kills people! conspiracy!) are just using the religious angle a wedge to get their way. And in any case, there's plenty of left wing zealots who got duped by FaceBook into thinking they know better than their doctor, many of whom have no strong religious inclinations.

Re: Say goodbye to the anti-vaxers.

[ImprovOmega]

He said unnecessarily sick people. As in, there's no reason you should have gotten sick because you should have been vaccinated against measles or whatever. We have no reasonable way to prevent the common cold, but if you are experiencing symptoms your sick ass should be holed up at home as a courtesy to others.

Re: Say goodbye to the anti-vaxers.

[Anonymous Coward]

The "common cold" kills over a million kids world wide. If there was a vaccine for it and you didn't get that and took the rhinovirus onto a subway and exposed those who can't be vaccinate I'd consider you attempting murder. You are probably one of those people who think, "little sick" == "cold" and "very sick" == "flu", but the "common cold" can be a very horrible sickness.

Re:Say goodbye to the anti-vaxers.

[adfraggs]

Of course they are. There is no such thing as absolute and un-compromised human rights. Welcome to reality, where people don't exist in their own private bubble.

Re: Say goodbye to the anti-vaxers.

[gravewax]

The sad fact is we now have generations of parents that weren't alive in the 80's when millions were dieing every year from measles, let alone when Polio was killing or crippling people for life. They think of these as historical things like it can't happen to them and all the vaccinations are just a big scam. It would take any serious anti vaxxer about 5 mins of googling stats to realise how fucking wrong they are yet they won't do that as facts are an inconvenience to their conspiracy thoeries.

Re: Say goodbye to the anti-vaxers.

[Anonymous Coward]

Well if you're vaccinated, then you're good to go to live on your Island right?

White People are to blame

[Anonymous Coward]

when white people invaded the americas they were responsible for bringing disease to the red people. Now when the brown invade the USA it is white people who are to blame for having such a weak immune system that it is compromised by the diseases that brown people have been living with for hundreds of years. On the other hand If a brown person gets a disease it is white peoples fault for not vaccinating their kids. If a brown person drops abandons their kids at the border and that kid dies of disease, it is white people fault for not taking better care of the brown kids.

I do not know what disaster is going to happen tomorrow, but I know it will be white peoples fault

Blame the parents

[Anonymous Coward]

When an child doesn't have their proper vaccinations and gets a disease that they should be vaccinated against, we need have children's aid take custody of all their kids and send the parents to prison for a very harsh sentence. The charge can be failing to provide the necessities of life. In Canada (where I am), that carries a 5 year sentence. That's a good starting point but I think the US can do better. Life would be good.

Re: Blame the parents

[Anonymous Coward]

Heil Pharma!

The iron boot is gonna stomp those heretics who deny the perfection of our holy vax!

Heil Pharma!

Re: Blame the parents

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, damn Nazis not letting drunk drivers plow through school yards either. If I want to drive drunk through school yards, that's my own business. If any kids get run over, it's the fault of their parents for not watching them better. I thought 'merika was a free country but they won't let me drive drunk.

Re:Blame the parents

[Anonymous Coward]

When an child doesn't have their proper vaccinations and gets a disease that they should be vaccinated against, we need have children's aid take custody of all their kids and send the parents to prison for a very harsh sentence. The charge can be failing to provide the necessities of life. In Canada (where I am), that carries a 5 year sentence.

If the law already exists, how many parents are in Canadian prisons for failing to provide the necessities of life? Surely you must have at least a few thousand by now. Just curious how effective your program is.

That's a good starting point but I think the US can do better. Life would be good.

Do better? Surely you're joking. No one does incarceration better than the US.

Stupidity Is Winning

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

This shit just makes me shake my head....all the work and effort and time and money that went into developing vaccines, and these ninnies won't use them.

And it's all because discredited former British doctor (Andrew Wakefield) published a bullshit medical paper claiming that vaccines were unsafe. That's all it took- the morons and dumbshits ate it up and stopped vaccinating their children.

Now we have measles epidemics again, yay.

Re:Stupidity Is Winning

[Anonymous Coward]

Gets better. Once the US absorbs a good portion of South America, YOU will pay it. The US Dollar will go into hyperinflation.

End of the world as you know it. And I honesty mean that. With the failures of socialism, people just want to double-down on it.

One day, I'll be telling my great grandchildren "don't walk into the ghost cities, they're dangerous" "Only madmen, gangs, and pirates hang around them" "They mark their territory with the bones of the long forgotten and unnamed!!!"

Re:Stupidity Is Winning

[h4ck7h3p14n37]

There's a big difference between someone who doesn't get vaccinated for measles and someone who doesn't get a yearly flu vaccine.

You're also ignoring the fact that some vaccines are harmful, albeit to a small number of people. Guillain-Barre syndrome is real and people who received the flu shot in the 2008-2009 season possibly at greater risk of H1N1.

It's just as misleading to claim all vaccines are totally safe as it is to claim they cause things like autism.

Re:Stupidity Is Winning

[Dragonslicer]

And it's all because discredited former British doctor (Andrew Wakefield) published a bullshit medical paper claiming that vaccines were unsafe.

No, it's worse than that. The bullshit medical paper claimed that a specific vaccine from a specific manufacturer was unsafe. Wakefield was paid by a competing manufacturer to write the paper.

Re:Stupidity Is Winning

[jeff4747]

Gets better. Once the US absorbs a good portion of South America

Pssst....the vaccination rate in every country in South America is higher than the US. "Absorbing" South America would actually reduce the rate of preventable deaths from diseases like measles.

Re:Stupidity Is Winning

[Anonymous Coward]

There are parents legit asking if measles parties (like chickenpox parties) are available near them. People are purposefully wanting to get their kids infected because they think it will give their children lifelong immunity instead of death and deformity.

Re:Stupidity Is Winning

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

You're also ignoring the fact that some vaccines are harmful, albeit to a small number of people.

So is traveling in an automobile, so what?

And I never said that "all vaccines are totally safe". Please stop putting words in my mouth. It's rare, but yes vaccines can cause side effects. Again, so what?

Your chances of dying in a car accident are far, far greater than the chance of side-effects from any vaccine but you still drive all the time, right?

Re:Stupidity Is Winning

[jwhitener]

The anti-vax movement didn't pick up steam on its own. Like a lot of the misinformation about all sorts of things lately, it is being systematically perpetuated by hostile foreign governments.

See https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.2018.304567

Google 'russian anti-vax'. Racial divides, climate change 'debates', 'fake news'. Anything that is unhealthy and disruptive to western democracies is being actively pushed and inflamed by Russia.

Who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does it really matter? There were two employees of Merck that sued in 2012 claiming there data for the effectiveness of their vaccines had been fraudulent for many years, maybe even decades.

And despite this, we've been fine till now. It's likely nothing to do with vaccines.

South of the Border

[Anonymous Coward]

How many of these cases originate outside our borders? How many were spread from such infected individuals?

Re:South of the Border

[Falconhell]

Most cases are spread by returning unvaccinated travellers, sorry to ruin your dog whistle.

Re:South of the Border

[Anonymous Coward]

Provide evidence.

Re:South of the Border

[Anonymous Coward]

Look at the current measles epidemic in Washington. It was started by vaccinated travelers. They know the exact fucking family that started it.

Provide your evidence. Which I know you don't have.

Re:South of the Border

[Anonymous Coward]

That's most of them? You expect me to take your word for it? I don't think so. You made a positive claim. Support it and cite it or admit you have no idea what you are talking about.

Re:South of the Border

[Anonymous Coward]

UNvaccinated. They were a bunch of anti-vax morons traveling and brought it back.

Re:South of the Border

[Anonymous Coward]

I would be in favor of refusing to allow re-entry to unvaccinated people. However, that only makes sense if we also prevent unvaccinated people entering the country by the millions every year. Otherwise, I simply don't see the cost justified, nor anything meaningful accomplished. Surely if a couple of thousand people is a problem, a million is that much worse. We shouldn't spare any cost to ensure our herd immunity isn't harmed by potential disease vectors entering our country, no matter where they originated!

In fact, I think it would only make sense that before receiving any form of public entitlement, the individual had to prove their vaccine record and of course their identity and legal status, to verify it is indeed them. States should definitely have their federal funding tied to cooperation with such verification. This is a public health matter! Children's lives are at stake!

Rarely do I admit I am wrong, but you know, you both convinced me. I previously only had the opinion that I did not trust the judgement of the various organizations mandating vaccines to always have the best interests of the individual in mind, but this sounds like it is indeed much broader than that. You've shown me the light - truly!

Re:South of the Border

[Anonymous Coward]

The countries south of your border have a far higher vaccination rate than that of the US.

Re:South of the Border

[Anonymous Coward]

Most cases are spread by returning unvaccinated travellers, sorry to ruin your dog whistle.

Dear super-liberal. So you're basically confirming the OPs idea. That measles originates outside the country. The only difference between you and the OP is you included "unvaccinated", which is also true.

Please stop the virtue signaling. "finding the racist" doesn't make you a better person, Frank Burns.

Re:South of the Border

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear super-libertarian. If you want to blame on anyone at all, blame on your own people who didn't vaccinate and went out to grab the disease back. Besides, there is no signaling about racist in the GP either.

Re:German Measles

[Abraham Hitler]

Did someone say left wingers?

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Man that's sick!

[Anonymous Coward]

n/t

It's a self-solving problem

[Gravis Zero]

In the context of Darwinism, those who refuse to vaccinate their children (and those who associate with such people) are unfit when it comes to genetic survival. I'm not saying it will be fast or clean but ultimately, this problem will solve itself.

If people don't wise up, I'm pretty sure there will be revenge killing where parents who refused to vaccinate their child are killed by the relatives of a child who died as a result. This could also result in possible sociological solution where doctors enable others to vaccinate children of anti-vaxxers on their own accord. Rights and laws are only honored when they make sense to the general public.

You humans are really silly. You solve a problem and then somehow make it a problem again.

Re: It's a self-solving problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Heil Pharma!

Kill 'em all if they don't agree!

Heil Pharma!

Re:It's a self-solving problem

[Anonymous Coward]

Rights and laws are only honored when they make sense to the general public.

Anti-vaxxers are also opting out on religious grounds, and we've waged war over religious differences. Still do. So let's stop pretending this problem is easily dismissed under the guise of rights or laws.

You humans are really silly. You solve a problem and then somehow make it a problem again.

I agree, humans are really silly. Every now and then you find one talking out of their ass and to their own race in the 3rd party.

Re:It's a self-solving problem

[angel'o'sphere]

child are killed by the relatives of a child who died as a result.
Then the other child was not vaccinated either ...

Re:It's a self-solving problem

[Anonymous Coward]

What is the religious argument for avoiding vaccines? I used to be a Catholic and I never remember that being a part of our dogma. Which religions avoid vaccines, and for what reasons?

Re:It's a self-solving problem

[CrimsonAvenger]

Then the other child was not vaccinated either ...

Measles vaccine, as an example, is only about 97% effective. It's good enough to stop the spread of measles, but not good enough to absolutely guarantee that you won't get measles....

Re:It's a self-solving problem

[Anonymous Coward]

For the most part, religions are fine with vaccines. Religious people on the other hand are a different story. You can always find a religious reason to justify your actions, but that doesn't mean that your actions are supported by your religion.

Re:It's a self-solving problem

[gotan]

When someone vaccinated gets measles it's more likely (compared to unvaccinated cases) to be less severe.

So there are 3 good reasons for vaccination:
- most vaccinated people are immune,
- even for those who aren't a measles infection will likely be less severe,
- "herd immunity" also protects those who aren't vaccinated.

Re:It's a self-solving problem

[Anonymous Coward]

My mom had cancer and survived but it wiped her immune system and she had to wait to get re-vaccinated for everything. Should she be killed by an antivaxxer because she was busy fighting cancer?

Pray the measles away!

[Anonymous Coward]

I have run across strong conservatives who are opposed to vaccination

Anyone who catches measles is being punished by God for their wicked ways.

Re: Pray the measles away!

[Anonymous Coward]

And the left will say anyone who catches measles is a racist xenophobe.

Re: Pray the measles away!

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of the Right are racist xenophobes, it's the defining characteristic of their party platform.
But that has nothing to do with anti-science and believing in bullshit .. OH WAIT

P.S. the Mexicans can't give you measles, 94% vaccination rates for children under 5. the U.S. is down to 91% and much lower than that in rural areas.

Units

[Anonymous Coward]

So how many measles are there in a case?

I see a major business opportunity

[Anonymous Coward]

You should start a strawman business.

Hallelujah, praise the vax!

[astrofurter]

Oh noez - it's duh MEASLES! How will we ever survive this minor annoyance disease??!! Before the blessed vax (peace be upon it), 9 out of every 10 school children died of measles! It killed my own father when he was only six years old!!

Quick everybody, get your jackboots ready. We're gonna FORCE everyone to shoot up with CRAZY CHEMICALS!!!??1!!!1!!!! Hallelujah, praise the vax!

Crazy chemicals are gonna save us all! It must be true because a journalist paid by Big Pharma told me so. He said it's 300% safe. And we're all gonna die immediately if we don't shoot up with it.

Hallelujah praise SCIENCE(tm)!!!!!11!!! Praise the holy vax! Amen.

Re:Hallelujah, praise the vax!

[phantomfive]

Chemicals, eh? Wait until you realize your body is full of poisonous chemicals that your own body created. Hormones, too.

Re:Hallelujah, praise the vax!

[Dog-Cow]

Water is toxic. Please stop ingesting it.

Re:Hallelujah, praise the vax!

[Anonymous Coward]

I know right? The normal death rate was 30%.... as if 1 in 3 odds are anything to worry about. That's like those wimps that play Russian Roulette with only two bullets in the chamber.
Medicine, who needs it?

Re:Hallelujah, praise the vax!

[stealth_finger]

We're gonna FORCE everyone to shoot up with CRAZY CHEMICALS!!!??1!!!1!!!! Hallelujah, praise the vax!

Totally full of DHMO. The most deadly chemical known to man, fatal in all forms and its everywhere, completely unregulated. Mobilise the masses, something must be done!

Re:Hallelujah, praise the vax!

[Anonymous Coward]

minor annoyance disease

I know, right? It only causes brain inflammation, blindness, seizures and death. Minor issues, really. Just tough it out, pussies!

Re:Hallelujah, praise the vax!

[Anonymous Coward]

No, the normal death rate is about 1 in 100000. But statistics are collected from everyone who died while being infected - but really the cause is the living conditions and health status in general. Those numbers are not relevant to a well-fed and otherwise healthy person in a first world country. Not even remotely.

Re:Hallelujah, praise the vax!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, never mind the actual risk of that happening. Just make hyperbolic, misleading statements. That certainly doesn't undermine your accusations of 'misinformation'. You do know that basically every person over the age of 60 has had the measles, right? Where exactly are their horror stories?

Re: Hallelujah, praise the vax!

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny.... I didn't notice 1/3 of my schoolmates - all of whom caught measles - dying. I must not have been paying close attention....

Re: Hallelujah, praise the vax!

[Anonymous Coward]

More than that. Everyone over 40 has had the measles. None of us died.

Re:Hallelujah, praise the vax!

[jeff4747]

Yeah, never mind the actual risk of that happening.

It's 1 in 10,000.

The rate of an adverse reaction to the MMR vaccine is about 1 in 6,000,000. And most of those are allergic reactions that are very treatable and do not cause life-long harm.

There have been two deaths caused by the MMR vaccine. Ever. One was an advanced leukemia patient, who decided to risk the vaccine because of their risk of catching the disease due to morons like you. One was a baby, and the parents didn't authorize sharing their information.

If you are unable to understand the difference between 1 in 10,000, 1 in 6,000,000 and 2 in 2,500,000,000, you should not be making the medical decisions for anyone.

You do know that basically every person over the age of 60 has had the measles, right? Where exactly are their horror stories?

In your local graveyard.

Re: Hallelujah, praise the vax!

[jeff4747]

More than that. Everyone over 40 has had the measles

Nope. I'm 45, never had measles. 'Cause I got vaccinated.

It's almost like you don't actually know the history of the thing you're talking about...

Re: Hallelujah, praise the vax!

[lactose99]

Facts and logic were never an antivax strength.

Re:Hallelujah, praise the vax!

[Anonymous Coward]

Water? Fish fuck in it!

Re:Hallelujah, praise the vax!

[ImprovOmega]

You do know that basically every person over the age of 60 has had the measles, right? Where exactly are their horror stories?

In your local graveyard.

This is the best mic drop end of comment I've seen in months. If I only had mod points good sir!

Re:Hallelujah, praise the vax!

[Anonymous Coward]

Water is toxic. Please stop ingesting it.

No, water is known to the state of California to cause cancer.

Re: Hallelujah, praise the vax!

[Anonymous Coward]

Cancer dies if you don't give it water.

Re: Hallelujah, praise the vax!

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, that would explain the autism...

Re: Hallelujah, praise the vax!

[Anonymous Coward]

Lies, damned lies, and statistics

Swindle?

[Anonymous Coward]

Who is getting swindled? Are people paying big fees to increase their IQ? Are they joining expensive clubs like Mensa, and then hit with annual dues that they must pay because you can't quit the club?

Also, it is a bit like saying "Height is a swindle." We like to measure things. Yes, IQ is measured by a battery of questions that are limited to a person's ability to recognize patterns or otherwise "see" things that fall into patterns... what makes this "pseudoscientific"? The results of a population of people fall along a bell-shaped curve, with most people in the middle. Most people consistently fall in a certain area of the curve. Where is the swindle? Is it a swindle to point out that different people perform differently on the test? Is it a swindle to find correlations between economic or social factors and how people do on the test? Shhhh! Don't talk about people being different!

Not just social media

[Uberbah]

Russia Madcow has been pushing a stupid conspiracy theory for almost three years on MSNBC. Whereas people who call BS on crap like false flags in Syria or a DNC worker being shot twice in a robbery where nothing is taken are smeared as "conspiracy theorists".

Re:Not just social media

[radarskiy]

'smeared as "conspiracy theorists"'

Some of these theories have some supporting evidence, though not to the "beyond a reasonable doubt" level of proof. Others have no evidence at all. The latter are conspiracy theories, not the former.

Take for example the Seth Rich case. No evidence at all has turned up to back the claim that he was assassinated. On the other hand, Seth Rich himself said it was a mugging gone bad and the perps ran away... You did remember that Seth Rich lived long enough to get to the hospital and talk to the police, right?

Re:Not just social media

[fafalone]

I've not seen enough evidence to form a conclusion on Seth Rich, but a "mugging gone bad" is precisely how you would assassinate someone. You'd make it look like a common crime, not an assassination. If anything it shifts the weight towards the latter, not away. Maybe his life was too clean for him to OD, and suicide too suspicious.

Re:Not just social media

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Most of her stuff checks out, though.

When she misses the mark she owns up to it, but an awful lot of the stuff she's reported on has been found to be true. Sometimes right away, sometimes later, but most of the time what she reports is accurate.

Re:Not just social media

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

I've not seen enough evidence to form a conclusion on Seth Rich, but a "mugging gone bad" is precisely how you would assassinate someone. You'd make it look like a common crime, not an assassination. If anything it shifts the weight towards the latter, not away. Maybe his life was too clean for him to OD, and suicide too suspicious.

Bullshit. What you're doing is shooting the arrow and then drawing a bullseye around it.

You could claim anything and it would be impossible to prove it wasn't true.

Hell, maybe he got mixed up with some crazy two-timing bitch and her other boyfriend hunted Seth Rich down and shot him. You don't know it's not true and it's every bit as valid as your 'theory'.

Re:Not just social media

[Uberbah]

Not so much. Ten million a year from NBC has turned Maddow from an insightful commentator into an unholy amalgamation of Glenn Beck and Alex Jones.

Re:Not just social media

[Uberbah]

You did remember that Seth Rich lived long enough to get to the hospital and talk to the police, right?

And you do know he was shot, right? That people that are in shock and bleeding out aren't likely to whip out their deer stalkers and solve their own case, right? That an assassin wouldn't say "hey dude I'm here to kill youz" instead of "gimme your wallet".

Right?

Re:Not just social media

[Uberbah]

Bullshit. What you're doing is shooting the arrow and then drawing a bullseye around it.

Speaking of bullshit, you're ignoring that nothing was taken in this "robbery", and that Wikileaks has all but identified Rich as being the source of the leaks.

Re:Not just social media

[JustAnotherOldGuy]

Speaking of bullshit, you're ignoring that nothing was taken in this "robbery", and that Wikileaks has all but identified Rich as being the source of the leaks.

Those facts just bolster my case.

It's so obvious- the other boyfriend wasn't out to rob him, he was out to kill him- that's why nothing was taken in the "robbery".

See, I can 'connect' imaginary dots just like you can. But thanks for helping make my point.

Coming across the border.

[Anonymous Coward]

Build the fucking wall!

Wny Vaccinate.

[wolfheart111]

Just put it into our water lol...

Re:Wny Vaccinate.

[Areyoukiddingme]

Just put it into our water lol...

As if these lunatics aren't paranoid enough. They already think fluoride treatment of water is some huge conspiracy too.

Assholes should meet my mother, who has more crowns and bridges in her mouth than real teeth, for lack of fluoridated water when she was a child.

Conspiratorial thinking, in largest part.

[Truth_Quark]

Some Aussies looked into the reasons last year.

In order of magnitude, antivaccination attitudes were highest among those who

(a) were high in conspiratorial thinking
(b) were high in reactance
(c) reported high levels of disgust toward blood and needles
(d) had strong individualistic/hierarchical worldviews.

In contrast, demographic variables (including education) accounted for nonsignificant or trivial levels of variance.

The Psychological Roots of Anti-Vaccination Attitudes: A 24-Nation Investigation, Hornsey, M. J., Harris, E. A., & Fielding, K. S. Health Psychology (2018)

I don't know what you can do with that, but that's what's wrong with them: Conspriacy theorists who are bolshie, but not from any particular education level or demographic group.

Re:Conspiratorial thinking, in largest part.

[AmiMoJo]

Are they people who are already prone to conspiratorial thinking and being bolshie, or were they made that way when they fell down the anti-vax rabbit hole and got "radicalized"?

A journalist in the UK did test that was only semi-serious, but which had interesting results. He cut out all sources of news except for the Daily Mail. He reported feeling more paranoid and being more angry after a month of exposure, having come to view all sorts of groups with suspicion and hostility.

Re: Conspiratorial thinking, in largest part.

[phantomfive]

Nice find, thanks!

Interesting question is

[oldgraybeard]

Where did the new infections come from? " The largest growth in infections since measles was eliminated totaled 23 outbreaks and 667 cases in 2014"

Odd that something that was "eliminated" can what? independently recreate itself! from nothing

The real problem is 2 fold! The un vaccinated and the uncontrolled influx of individuals who medical histories are unknown. Together that creates a positive environment for the growth of the infections.

You can not deal with one issue with out dealing with the other.

Just my 2 cents ;)

Re:Interesting question is

[gaiageek]

Measles was eliminated in the United States in 2000. Unless you're going to quarantine the US completely (close all borders, no one gets in or out) you're going to have people getting exposed. Vaccines are the only practical way to prevent it from spreading.

Re:Interesting question is

[Mal-2]

Even that won't work, if there's an animal reservoir and/or vector for the disease. That's why it's impossible to completely eradicate bubonic plague, for example.

Re:Interesting question is

[dunkelfalke]

It kind of does if the animals are also vaccinated.
That's how Belgium and Germany eliminated rabies, by spreading vaccinated bait for the foxes.
It is far more difficult to achieve for the plague, though.

Re:Interesting question is

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless you're going to quarantine the US completely (close all borders, no one gets in or out)

Don't tempt them. I'm pretty sure that's a desirable outcome for a vocal minority of the US population who like simplistic solutions that are clearly not thought all the way through.

Re:Interesting question is

[SlaveToTheGrind]

Measles was eliminated in the United States in 2000.

I hear this meme a lot. The CDC reported 216 cases of measles in the U.S. from 2001-2003. Roughly 1 in 5 of those were of "unknown" origin (i.e., they couldn't find evidence to pin the case on an external source).

That's certainly a puzzling definition of "eliminated" -- it seems more along the lines of "Mission Accomplished" in Iraq than any sort of statistical reality.

Measles Paranoia and Propaganda

[Anonymous Coward]

For some reason it has become popular to be paranoid of measles. The human race has survived with measles. I even got the measles in the 1970's here in Canada as a child. What is the paranoia? (I haven't seen such a scare since the swine flu, or sars, or ebola)
BTW I think people should be encouraged with convincing and correct information to be 'immunized', not 'vaccinated'. Otherwise, they may feel demeaned and violated (and will run from the needle.)

Re:Measles Paranoia and Propaganda

[Anonymous Coward]

Vaccination is a tangible act of administering a vaccine. It is trivial to identify when vaccination has occurred, assuming that you trust that what is being administered is the claimed vaccine and not a placebo. Immunization occurs as a result of exposure to the vaccine or the disease itself in some cases. Verification of immunization is far more difficult and may not be practical or possible at the individual level. And encouraging people with correct information is flat-out impossible because the people who don't want to be convinced will just claim that the correct information isn't correct. See: Fake News.

Congratulations on surviving measles without any serious complications. Measles is highly contagious and is fatal in 1 in 1,000 cases with modern medical treatment. As recently as the 1980s, it killed millions of people worldwide every year. Going back further, it is believed to have wiped out a significant percentage of the native population of the Americas due to a lack of natural resistance in the population, effectively dooming entire civilizations. The human race survived measles, but hundreds of millions of individuals did not. And now we have the opportunity to eradicate it but can't because a one in a million chance of complications from the vaccine scares people more than a one in a thousand chance of death from the disease (and the possibility of passing it on to people who cannot be vaccinated or whose immunizations didn't take). An inability to process large numbers will inevitably be humanity's downfall.

Re:Measles Paranoia and Propaganda

[jeff4747]

Measles has an adverse reaction rate of 1 in 10,000. Yes, you survived. Hundreds of millions did not.

We'd like those hundreds of millions to not die. You don't give a shit, since it won't kill you personally.

Re:Measles Paranoia and Propaganda

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, the human race has survived without medicine for most of the time.
I'd sure hope you still would not approve if there was a fringe group going around bombing hospitals and wanting to get rid of all medicine...
Also I find "scare" the wrong word. "Outrage" is better. Outrage about the people who intentionally and for no good reason hinder the fight against a disease that kills about 100 000 people every year world-wide.

Who's the shthole country now?

[Anonymous Coward]

Look at me, I'm the sthhole country now.

No. Sometimes you can't reach stupid.

[Uberbah]

It's because the experts keep discrediting themselves. You might not think they are, but to an increasingly large number of people, science and government institutions are not trustworthy, for what they consider good reasons.

Can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into. You can deluge anti-vaxxers with an exceptionally polite list of facts and research and it just makes them dig in even more. So what do you do with people that can't be reasoned with?

1) Mocking. The Daily Show had on the lunar conspiracy theorist who got decked by Buzz Aldrin, after he hounded the retired astronaut, accusing him of being a liar and a cheat. After playing the clip of the theorist getting punched, the "reporter" "pointed out" that it looked fake.

2) Give them so much shit in public, all the time every time, that they voluntarily stfu.

Re:No. Sometimes you can't reach stupid.

[NotSoHeavyD3]

Funny that you should bring up the Daily Show since they had anti vaxxer and profession Katherine Hepburn impersonator RFK jr on and from what I remember they didn't mock him. I think this is the video of that episode but it's been a long time since I've last seen it. http://www.cc.com/video-clips/...

Re:No. Sometimes you can't reach stupid.

[Uberbah]

That's a shame. With RFK I would have used tactic #3, using their own dumbass logic but on another subject. Like, when are we going to reign in the seat belt conspiracy? They don't always save lives, companies make money manufacturing them, and the government mandates that they be installed in all cars and trucks....ermagerd!

The fraud of 'vaccination'

[Anonymous Coward]

"who aren't vaccinated or hadn't previously had measles" - LOL. In other words:

"who aren't vaccinated or who ARE vaccinated'...

Because the 'vaccine' doesn't work, because Jenner was a fraud.

How many of those infected were 'vaccinated'? The article conveniently doesn't tell us! I wonder why...

EVERYBODY had measles when I was a child, and mumps, and chickenpox - EVERY child in my school, EVERY adult had had them as a child, it was normal.

http://www.whale.to/v/hadwen.html

Jenner was a fraud, he was unqualified, did no proper research, and made a load of money out of injecting pus into people.

And LOL at all the self righteous cretins on here who believe in this fraud, and won't even QUESTION it.

Darwinism

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the modern survival of the fittest.

ID10T's who think vaccinations are harmful will be removed from the gene pool in a couple of generations.
Unless they infect the minds of others.

Try to prevent them from doing so.

"infected travelers bring the disease"

[reboot246]

Is that a polite way of saying illegal immigrants are bringing diseases into the US? Almost none of them have ever been vaccinated and many crossing the border are already sick. Measles are just one disease that we had nearly eliminated that are coming back now. Coincidence?

Re:"infected travelers bring the disease"

[Anonymous Coward]

Build the wall. Build it now.

Re:"infected travelers bring the disease"

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that a polite way of saying illegal immigrants are bringing diseases into the US?

No. It refers mainly to unvaccinated US residents who temporarily leave the country to visit another and then return, or unvaccinated foreigners who enter the country for a visit and come into contact with unvaccinated locals before returning home - either way, almost entirely through airports and legally. Of course, unvaccinated immigrants pose the exact same risk as unvaccinated travellers, but you were asking specifically about whether the term is a euphemism. It is not.

Measles are just one disease that we had nearly eliminated that are coming back now. Coincidence?

No, for it to be a coincidence the two things must coincide. Immigrants, including infected ones, were entering back when measles was managing to stay "eliminated" too - it's not a recent phenomenon. That isn't a coincidence - that's a red herring.

However, the resurgence of outbreaks does coincide with rise of the anti-vax movement. Make of that what you will.

Re:"infected travelers bring the disease"

[F.Ultra]

Except of course that Mexico and Nicaragua have higher vaccination rates against measles than the US: https://theweek.com/articles/5...

Re:"infected travelers bring the disease"

[Anonymous Coward]

Better build a lot of walls. One around Washington, another around New York and New Jersey (we can just use one for them,) and a fucking pressurized dome around California. Also, build a wall for both borders, not just the Southern one, since we got retards up here in Canada who aren't vaccinating their kids, too.

The question is, is there enough sand in the world for all that concrete?

Re:"infected travelers bring the disease"

[link-error]

May illegal immigrants are coming from Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras. Not sure of their vaccination rates, but I'm sure it's not good.

https://www.reuters.com/articl...

  and these are just the ones they catch. Others are disappearing into society, going to schools and using emergency facilities when they get really sick.

Re:"infected travelers bring the disease"

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep .. when ya let the wogs/wettbakkks/slants in you can expect shit to happen. But, the Trotsky-slut DemoRats and Quisling biz-Nazis need to vote-herd & wage-slave those miserable waifs so they encourage the illegal migration.

Re:"infected travelers bring the disease"

[jeff4747]

Almost none of them have ever been vaccinated

Actually, the vaccination rate of every Central and South American country is higher than the US. So no, they were vaccinated. Also, these outbreaks were caused by US people getting infected abroad and bringing the disease back.

Media put that in your head

[aepervius]

Factually what you reflect is the media stupid vault face on everything or jumping on any press release not understanding what is written. The reality is that science in general, no matter what a few tells you about reproducibility or significance criticism, is very very reliable. But the media don't like what they don't understand so you are very likely to read article spreading distrust on expert, or media taking a random idiot and pretending that person is an expert. The end game is people like you distrusting the expert, when in reality without expert you have NOTHING. Same shitty situation as with brexit really, where expert are distrusted "project fear".

Re:Media put that in your head

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you a retard?

War and diseases used to cleanse the world of the

[Anonymous Coward]

weakest.
Let it continue.

Measles is eradicable

[Michael Woodhams]

The only infectious human disease we have ever eradicated is smallpox, which was eradicated way back in the 1970s. From an eradication point of view, measles and smallpox are very similar: they are viruses, they are highly infectious, they do not mutate super-fast, they infect only humans, it is obvious when someone has the disease, there is a very effective vaccine. From a technical point of view, eradicating measles is a very similar task to eradicating smallpox.

However, there is one significant difference: measles is a fairly worrying disease, whereas smallpox is absolutely terrifying. This means there hasn't been the social and political will to push an eradication program. If the will did exist, we could wrap it up in about 10 years (wild guess on my part), and then nobody would ever need a measles vaccination ever again. Don't like vaccinations? Push for eradication. Your kids will get the jab, but your grandkids, great-grandkids, etc. forever, will not.

The list of diseases considered eradicable (as of 2008) is quite short. For example, influenza is not - it readily jumps species (so eradication from humans would require vaccinating wild ducks, for example) and it mutates rapidly, so new vaccines are constantly needed.

The list:
Smallpox (eradicated)
Polio (on the verge of eradication, probably 5 to 10 years off)
Dracunculiasis/Guinea worm (on the verge of eradication)
Yaws (on the verge of eradication)
Malaria (eradication still decades away)
Hookworm
Lymphatic filariasis
Measles
Mumps
Rubella
Lymphatic filariasis
Cysticercosis

Re:Measles is eradicable

[Anonymous Coward]

What about typhus?

https://davidharrisjr.com/news-events/typhus-spreading-like-wildfire-in-la-in-rat-infested-homeless-camps/

What will clear up typhus from the homeless camps?

Re:Measles is eradicable

[Anonymous Coward]

And how did Smallpox get eradicated? It wasn't from vaccines, how do we know this? Because they stopped giving the vaccines because it was giving people diseases.

Re:Measles is eradicable

[Anonymous Coward]

btw, mumps won't get eradicated from vaccines from Merck. (the US provider of the MMR vaccine)

They have been caught falsifying the efficacy data on their mumps vaccines for years (maybe decades), it's not legally effective. (there's a percentage threshold required by the government)

But this information will be hidden by trolls/mods that don't like anything that counters the narrative that vaccines are perfect no matter what...
 

Re:Measles is eradicable

[jeff4747]

Well then, perhaps you should answer your own question: How did smallpox get eradicated?

'Cause we know it did after a massive vaccination campaign, and people only stopped getting the vaccine after it was eradicated.....so the vaccine sure looks like it got the job done.

Re:Measles is eradicable

[Actually, I do RTFA]

Is Malaria on that list because of vaccination or taking out the mosquitos? Because I know some people have talked about intentionally wiping out that species.

Re:Measles is eradicable

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope, the vaccine was giving people smallpox. They had to stop the vaccinations to stop the disease... which was already going away all without specific intervention.

Re:Measles is eradicable

[jeff4747]

You still failed to explain how smallpox was eradicated.

Also, no, the vaccine did not give people smallpox. But hey, when you're doing one massive lie, might as well do two.

Re:Measles is eradicable

[Anonymous Coward]

It was eradicated the same way all the other diseases were "eradicated", clean living conditions, good hygiene, clean water, nutrition.

Go look up the actual disease data. All the diseases supposed "cured" by vaccines were already almost entirely gone before any vaccine even existed.

Look at the data.

Re:German Measles

[Anonymous Coward]

You could just write “I’ve got a very small dick and no brain”, it would save space and put your message more accurately.
Fucktard.

Slow news, clickbait

[Anonymous Coward]

Move along, go watch cnn

Latin America has better MMR use than USA

[PeterM from Berkeley]

    Latin Americans are generally vaccinated (MMR) at a higher rate than people in the USA.

I can tell you that when I looked it up online (google search) I found that Latin American countries had higher reported rates of MMR vaccination of their people than the USA does, by and large.

    I don't know who brought measles to the USA (illegals or unvaccinated travellers, or vaccinated travellers who got sick anyway), but looking at the stats, it's more justified for Latin America to bar immigration from the USA to them than vice versa.

    Kind of took the wind out of any ideas I may have had about illegal immigrants from Latin America bringing disease to USA. Either exaggerated or not true, more likely driven by racist bigotry than fact, at least when it comes to measles/mumps/rubella.

    In fact, given that I have heaps of evidence of racist bigotry, (black people get criminal convictions and far harsher punishments in USA for the *exact same crime* and with the *exact same criminal record* (look it up!)) and no real information about immigrants bringing disease, I'm just going to assume claims of immigrants bringing disease in at larger rates than native spread are more likely racist bigotry than fact. Occam's razor--not guaranteed to be correct, but a good heuristic.

--PeterM

Re: Latin America has better MMR use than USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh no! Day rayceest!

Re:Latin America has better MMR use than USA

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah the illegals swarming the border are causing HUGE tuberculosis problems for the US. A bit worse than fucking measles bro. Ask John Keats how bad dying of tuberculosis sucks.

Re:Latin America has better MMR use than USA

[ImprovOmega]

Yeah the illegals swarming the border are causing HUGE tuberculosis problems for the US. A bit worse than fucking measles bro. Ask John Keats how bad dying of tuberculosis sucks.

Or we could, I don't know, treat them for tuberculosis since that's a thing now that wasn't available in John Keats' day.

And also, it was three cases of tuberculosis and 4 of HIV from a group of thousands of migrants. Hardly a huge problem as you claim.

Both of these were top results in a 2 second Google search. Maybe just the tiniest bit of fact checking next time?

MMR is 97% effective. Or 3% ineffective (2 doses)

[PeterM from Berkeley]

I didn't get the context about the claim that EVERYONE who got the measles had been vaccinated. I know that in some of the outbreaks in the USA right now, they're mostly raging amongst the unvaccinated.

That said, vaccines aren't always perfectly effective. People's immune systems differ. MMR is 97% effective against measles after 2 doses. That means that 3% of people are susceptible despite vaccination.

When you have an insanely contagious disease like measles, which can infect 20 new people for every case in a population that is not immune, you can expect a good amount of cases in VACCINATED people even when they've been vaccinated.

That 3% of the vaccinated, and those who are immunocompromised by, say, antirejection drugs so that they can keep an organ that they've had donated to them, or who are on cancer chemotherapy, must depend on "herd immunity" to protect them from measles.

Herd immunity is the effect that if enough of a population is immune to a disease, it can't spread in the population, and no member of the population is likely to be exposed, ever. For highly contagious measles and with a 97% vaccine effectiveness, herd immunity requires more than 90% of people be vaccinated.

Anti-vaxxers thus put EVERYONE at risk, not just their poor helpless kids who are the primary victims of their parent's negligence of their civic duty to protect both their kids and the nation from disease. This is a big part of the reason that there is such disgust for anti-vaxxer behavior from the rest of us.

--PeterM

Hunt down anti-vaxxers...

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, load up some darts with vaccinations and chase these people down and dart them like you would wildlife. This crap of bringing back sicknesses we already eliminated with vaccinations because "reasons" is for the birds. Either that or throw em out of the country if they don't vaccinate willingly or have a PROPER VALID medical excuse. Autism doesn't count, take your meds.

Controversial solution

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is the best solution?
1) Anti-vaxxers should be educated and their children taken away from them.
2) Anti-vaxxers should be sterilized and their children taken away from them.
3) Anti-vaxxers should be killed and their children taken away from them.
4) Anti-vaxxers should be sent to "the camps" with their children so they can all die of a virus we had eradicated.

Eggs

[thunderclees]

There is research showing that those with an allergy to eggs should not get the measles vaccine. The outbreak in NY was started by a Hasidim bringing measles over from Israel and infecting the community. They object to the measles based on religious grounds as it is produced from a raw egg so it is spreading like wildfire. Contamination of the places that members of their community frequent and are shared with outsiders have lead to non-Hasidim who are not vaccinated to become infected.

Illegals

[Anonymous Coward]

Measles cases have has risen since 2000 as infected third world trash Illegal aliens bring the disease to the U.S.

Fixed.

Re:Illegals

[jeff4747]

The vaccination rate in Central and South American countries exceed the vaccination rate of the US.

So no, it's not "illegal aliens". They get their shots. We don't.

Re:Illegals

[Anonymous Coward]

Cite or you are talking out of your ass

Re:Illegals

[jeff4747]

Hmmm...so odd you didn't provide a cite for your bullshit, but require one from everyone else.

So, you know where to find Google, right? There's this entity called the "World Health Organization" that tracks vaccination rates.

Re: Illegals

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, it's the jews.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/03/health/measles-outbreaks-ukraine-israel.html

Re:Illegals

[Opportunist]

Literally 5 seconds of googling "vaccination rates"...

https://data.oecd.org/healthca...

Re:Illegals

[mjwx]

Measles cases have has risen since 2000 as infected third world trash Illegal aliens bring the disease to the U.S.

Fixed.

Actually you'll find it's the trash locals that aren't vaccinated and travel to places where such diseases are active, then bring them back to developed nations to spread which are to blame.

Asylum seekers get checked for vaccinations at the border, if not present, are then vaccinated... Even if the program has to be run by volunteers like MSF (Doctors Without Borders).

vaccinations are essential

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Idiots of the United States, get your kids vaccinated!!!!!!!!!!!!

Show the no nukes is antiscientific

[Anonymous Coward]

Just because you're a nuke fluffer doesn't mean that the no nukes is antiscientific: that's just a nonsequitur, the generic fallacy. You paint it as unscientific and yours as scientific so as to avoid having to have a reason for you and not listen to theirs.
Nukes are expensive. To build. To maintain and to decommission. Their failure mode is so catastrophic that only government taxpayers will be required to pay the bills, which is never considered into the cost.
Nukes are failures. Capitalism requires "maximising 'shareholder value'", so corners WILL be cut because those living with the risks are not the ones profiting from this cutting.
Nukes are pushed by rose tinted myopics. The failures were all due to bad old designs, they're not like that. And when the next one goes critical, since it doesn't happen often, is now an "old design, the new ones won't fail like that" again, and it continues without stint. They are claimed to be 90% effective, yet that figure is only for the USA, where they take out expected, planned outages from the availability, so that is 90% of the ~16/7 operation yet implied to be 24/7 operation. And that figure falls down to the ~60% average of the rest of the world when new designs are used to tally, since the failure modes are not known with new designs, only older ones. Making this antithetical to the "the old designs are different, the new ones are perfectly safe!" mantra. The old unsafe ones are "up" 90% of the time, but if you can't use the old ones because they specifically are unsafe, then you can't use their capacity factors either, you have to use the new ones. Which is around 60%.

And if you whinge that it's only expensive because of NIMBYs and eco warriors, listen to the whinging about the "dangers of wind turbines", killing birds, causing cancer and "ruining the landscape", all run by NIMBYs who REFUSE to accept renewables they can see in "their backyard".

Re:Show the no nukes is antiscientific

[Applehu Akbar]

The "dangers of wind turbines" narrative is fake too, being noting but a Denigrate Not My Solution argument. The real problem with wind and solar is the low energy density for each generating unit. Except for photovoltaic installations on existing structures, this causes energy sprawl, the need to pave over square kilometers of that sacred Environment to get utility-scale amounts of power. Dense, concentrated, small-footprint sources of energy that are available 24/7 are the best. The one renewable that fits this description is hydro (and in a few lucky places, geothermal).

I don't know whether you're European, but several years ago I went over there to hike the Wainwright. Every small village across Cumbria and Yorkshire was fighting the NIMBY battle to install a three-turbine wind facility. Had they just installed one big nuke at Windscale, the start of the hike and a place where the nuclear bullet has already been bitten, they could have powered the region while avoiding the whole mess, and left all those villages pristine.

Affluent is not educated.

[Anonymous Coward]

The affluent can afford expensive education, and their connections help them get a leg up and a cushy job. Despite being thick as a yard of lard. See Trump.

Again, show the no nukers are unscientific

[Anonymous Coward]

Frequently the argument against is political, financial and nothing to do with science, so it isn't anti scientific any more than which brand of cereal you choose is based on antiscience, no matter which one you choose (since you have to choose NOT to have another, with no scientific reason why all of them should not be your fav). You proclaim your case so that you don't have to support your own. Like flat earthers claiming the globers are part of the conspiracy or theists insist that atheists hate god, because when they do so, they no longer have to listen to the arguments those others are making, they can ignore it and make up ones they can berate.

You first.

[Anonymous Coward]

Need a cite for that increase in rates since illegals being tied to the illegals' increasing numbers. Will be especially hard since the number of illegals has been going down, as a % of population, fairly consistently.

Re:You first.

[Opportunist]

Not only that but Mexico has a higher vaccination rate against MMR than the US...

No, you're making that assumption

[Anonymous Coward]

The parent poster said no such thing. Just that an education is partial and covers very little of the full panorama of human knowledge.

Re: German Measles

[Anonymous Coward]

Itâ(TM)s still longer than âoeleft wingersâ

Not just that

[rsilvergun]

it's large power structures encouraging a general distrust of science. Mega corporations fight climate change science. You've got Young Earth creationists railing against evolution and claiming the ark flood happened. And to this day people believe in trickle down economics crap like the Laffer curve and the "Job Creator" narrative.

A lot of very wealthy people are spending a ton of money to convince people that science doesn't work so we won't listen to those pesky scientists because if we did we'd cost those wealthy people an awful lot of money...

Re:Not just that

[Darinbob]

There's the age old problem arising that old jobs go away and new jobs show up. This has almost always caused problems when it has happened in the past, with protests, strikes, politics, violence, etc. There's no difference now and politics is showing up to demand that obsolete jobs remain (coal mining) and that new jobs aren't wanted (green tech). It gets ugly when this is all framed as a conspiracy of the left to oppress those on the right, which is absurd but also it's nothing new historically.

Compare the Thatcher era in the UKt where those losing mining jobs were blaming the conservative government directly for this while labour on the left were the ones insisting that they could keep these economically infeasible jobs. In the US it's flipped so that the "workers" are not on the left because of religious and cultural reasons (another reason why left vs right is becoming a meaningless measurement in the us as both major parties are a mix of both left and right).

They worked hard

[Anonymous Coward]

For their right to get sick, I hope it kills them

Well

[Anonymous Coward]

NPR tells me the immigrants streaming over the border are all way more vaccinated than the Americans are.
Which is just one of those weird things like the US is the most racist country in the world but is flooding with foreigners who are super vaccinated.
The mind wobbles.

almost feels like

[sad_]

somebody is playing Plague Inc IRL

Please stop thinking the Government is your Friend

[Anonymous Coward]

LEARN THE TRUTH:

https://vaers.hhs.gov/

This year, approximately 40 children will DIE or be Crippled by
the "MMR" vaccine.

When the likelihood of dying from a vaccine is higher than the
likelihood of dying of the disease, *It's not an "anti-vaxxer"
conspiracy, it's a NIH cover-up.

SOCK PUPPET ALERT!

[Anonymous Coward]

udachny is a sock puppet of roman_mir. the latter uses the former to try to convince more people that the foundational principles of his cult are righteous and sane. they both often post at -1 (and have their postings limited here on slashdot) because they have poor karma scores here as a result of repeated abusive behavior and their consistent religious proselytizing that is seldom on topic with the discussion thread. don't let him convince you that his doctrine would actually benefit you, or even result in him being less offensive.