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Playstation 2 Under Export Controls
Henry Pang
writes "The New York Times
has this interesting
article. It seems like people of China will not be
able to buy Playstation 2 next year. " It's The Times,
so you need a free account to read it, but it talks about
the Playstation being a supercomputer by US standards. Also
notes that within 12 months, a $1200 Merced based PC would also
be illegal.
Indeed. I believe it was a typo.
Its annoying to have links to sites that
require registration to read news.
How about only pointing to open site?
Even with a valid login/passwd I cannot read the article. The site got slashdoted within 20 minutes.
The unilateral and hegemonic actions of the US-establishement in Sudan, Iran, Iraq, Lybia, Yugouslavia, China, and in other parts of the world is going to have to face retaliation without question - it's just a question of time. How long before China becomes the next ony major World Power? How about when Russia recovers from the current temporary financial crises and retaliates in ways that your ordinary american can even dream off?
The American society is arrogant, poorly-educated, knows very litle about history, is very easly influenced, manipulated and brainwashed.
I have nothing against you ordinary american that aknowledges there's many problems with your country foreign and domestic policy. But to the other's expect nothing but WAR!
If they could snag all US nuke secrets to date without a hitch, I'm sure PSX2 tech would be no problem either. Since they've already got it, what's the point of restricting access now?
...even with the cypherpunk/cypherpunk l/p. And man does do a shitload of cookie dealing. Well, here's a simple truth for the NYT webmaster to report to his supperiors:
No cookies or no hits. Your choice.
- Privacy is king.
The main CPU in PSX1, as well as some chips in PSX2, are manufactured by LSI Logic, a US company.
Surely the Chinese, or anybody else with a few half competent computer scientists can set up a distributed processing system using Beowulf. So any question of being able to effectively limit their access to computing power is a joke.
Should be MTOPS, not TOPS. 2000 theoretical operations per second is not that fast.;)
And that new PC architecture with 256 interrupts will be out and fully backwards compatible with all x86 code.
My Creative Labs Voodoo Banshee card states right on the box - "only for sale in North or South America. not for export." Does a video card count as a computer subject to export regulations, also?
Mmmm. Biblical furbys. (*drool*)
.
Eh. Maybe the NYTimes needs to do more research themselves. They did write the article, did they not?
Two things here. Technology has always been a tool. That means it's also possibly used as a weapon. Attempts to keep it out of the hands of others means we keep an advantage. These may be slim, nonexistent, intangible, etc., but there is a concept behind it that does lend validity to restricting technology to other countries. Denying or even reducing accessing to cpus or machines has an influence.
Second, yeah, you can put together 9000 cpus to equal a supercomputer or two or three. But that also means you're using it just as a non-mobile computer. It'll have it's uses. But it won't be as useful. Some people want to put computers inside of things, e.g. missiles, warships, etc. Space and other logistics (such as supply) matters.
These two points don't mean I agree 100% with U.S.'s policy. But I think it's a little more complicated than just saying, "Gee, slap a few processors together to get a faster one." I personally don't want a country who has a modern day human rights record that only looks good in comparison to the U.S.'s era of slavery, has nukes, reduces freedoms of its people by pitting themselves against one another, and who makes threats against a peaceful island (look up their rhetoric against Taiwan) getting any sort of high end technology from us.
I was looking a the new Apple PowerBook at outpost.com and noticed that it said that it was export restricted. Huh? Then I realized that it was probably because of the bundled web browsers and the security encryption. Then again, I could be wrong about this.:)
Is was that post offtopic? The person argued that the posted article required registration and should not have been posted. It was only yesterday that someone else argued that the Rasterman article should not have been posted for some other reason, and yet that post was not found offtopic! It was moderated as 'interesting' and received a score of 2 -- perhaps it scored higher now. If this one is offtopic, then for the same reason the other one yesterday was offtopic also. Do we really need moderation at /. ?
This is ridiculous. The US is probably by far the #1 consumer of high end electronics. At this time, *we are* the primary market. We still find buyers when we sell two generation old chips to overseas markets.
US encryption products are only a joke becuase encryption was more mathematically than resource driven. Other coutries could develop the concepts on a piece of paper. You can't do that with a high end cpu.
If you don't understand this, maybe an incomplete analogy will work. Encryption is like work on gravitational physics. Resources are small or out of the hands of everyone anyways and most work can be done with pencil, paper, and thought. Silicon is like high energy physics. You need the pencil and paper, but you also need large amounts of resources to make it feasible. If someone hands you those resources, you jump ahead in the game. If your resources are restricted, you stay behind.
Playing fair has absolutely nothing to do with it. Principle means squat here. It's whether it's hurting us more than benefitting us.
I'd love to know what the heck is "fair" and what's not. If we use our resources to develop it by setting up a nation that pushes freedoms and development (read capitalism), we can also restrict it. Some people call this sort of control fair. I don't disagree.
And how is that different from us here? If you go to work everyday, you are a not too different either ;-)
Right on, dudes. China is a totalitarian
dictatorship, so let's refuse to sell their
people information technology over a certain
power - the one thing we could provide that
would be really, really useful to them in
their struggle to become a free people.
Like the Emperor can't easily get hold of any
supercomputers he might want. Stupid Feds.
I'd be pretty pissed if an S-type Jaguar with embedded PPC had more cpu power than a new warship on the drawing board.
You're talking about selected, known and solved applications. There, the criteria is not computatonal speed at all but how fast the communications link is.
What I'm talking about is that the law is about current problems (nuclear simulations) as well as future potential. It's the latter where I believe it still has a place for.
I don't know what tomorrow's little war time games are going to need. But I do know that computational speed, space, power source, and supply/resources are going to be valid and limiting factors in the design criteria.
Market wise, if you were a US company, why would you want to sell chips to a country who is not only a potentially huge manufacturing base, but also a huge marketplace. They use your new chips, come up with their new designs, and then sell them to their citizens and companies, locking you out anways.
American do not perceive that they are easily influenced, manipulated, or badly uninformed. In a precisely similar way, you do not perceive yourself that you are easily influenced, manipulated or you badly uninformed. Why I say this? Because everyone who does not have practical experience on issues of foreign policy are doomed to be influenced with whatever that comes along. Same thing with computers, it is too easy to influence the general public to use Microsoft products, or to influence them to use Apple products. And the Apple user will be convinced beyond doubt that Microsoft is bad and Apple is good, while the Microsoft user will be convinced on the opposite. So by saying that Americans (or your countrymen) are easily influenced we mean very little.
You need big hardware to simulate the mechanics of nuclear weapson, not to control the guidance system to deliver it. In fact the Airbus A320 - which takes off, navigated, and lands by itself - is powered by the equivalent of an 8088.
It's the CPU (which is made in the US) that is subject to export regulations. Though this does affect the PSX2 worldwide. This is why you shouldn't develop anything that might be subject to lame US regulations within US borders. Do the critical stuff in Canada, or Oz, or even Russia.
May be my english is not so good, by what do you mean by "spooks". From what i have read, it is in insult towards blacks in the old american histiory, but what does that have to with japanese or goverment?
Since when is China an enemy of the U.S.? (It ain't officially anyway.) Anyway, these laws are so screwed up and hipocritic. Try imagining the US considering everyone who doesn't agree with them an enemy. What an evil empire it would be!
Nuke the commies, and soon, before they start a Korean-type war on a vaster scale.
You sound so close to a person who uses the nick "kaa".
I am curious why you would be pissed if a Jaguar uses a more powerful processor than one of the latest missiles. I am not an expert but I bet it uses more powerful processor than processor used in most missiles.
I wish you could question the beliefs instilled in you. I wish you could question the government instead of being the sheep following whatever is told you.
It is an old word for a black person, but hardly is used in that context anymore, thank goodness.
... then why did Clinton push for MFN status? Satellite technology was exported with a waiver, maybe PSX2's next ^_^
Actually, sure you could have the world's largest supercomputer in a missile. Just use a little radio or satellite transmission up/downlink, and b00m, the missile is now hooked up to (and may as well be) any supercomputer you want. I bet Linux would be ideal for this application...
Remember, University students used to calculate PI and play life on their local supercomputers from their dumb terminals... (Oh hell, was that a long time ago. Of course, at this rate, China is probably just about to embark on that technology, eh US?)
(Just joking, you know, the b00m and all...)
Didn't AMD just open a CPU manufacturing plant in Germany? I suppose by this logic, they're a full 3 generations behind the US plant (and I guess my Malaysia made AMD processor is 4 generations behind. Better dig up that XT and beat the hell out of it in Quake 2.
I gotta make a trip down there one day. Sounds like a dream vacation, with all those electronics goodies. Just gotta pick up some Japanese first, I guess!
This is quite laughable; in particular given the fact that all or parts of it will end up being manufactured or assembled in China. Beside if the US spend as much time trying to mend their relationship with China and other countries around the world, they would have little to fear. Beside, let's look at the record here. When was the last time China attacked any country ? When was the last time the US attacked any country ?
Now who should be afraid of who ?
I wish you could follow common sense and learn to not to question every word said only because it is said by your government
Here's some excerpts...
"...Representatives Christopher Cox, a California Republican, and Norm Dicks, a Washington Democrat..."
"...Mr. Cox and Mr. Dicks wrote last week..."
Cox and Dicks, what a laugh riot! We put these guys in public office (rimshot). It's amazing they don't want to keep the chips private (rimshot).
(see the fourth and second from last paragraphs of the NY Times article for proof.)
Last I heard, the PowerPC processors were considered a supercomputer by U.S. standards. Not sure where I saw that, but it was quite some time ago 6 months maybe... The only thing that bothers me is that the author didnt look up the PowerPC equalivent since most Mac users like me and others such as Amiga or those running LinuxPPC would be interested in....
Is not that they are going to 'make' these computers illegal to export. They already are, by today's definitions of supercomputers.
The problem is that laws haven't been kept up.
Foo to the US GOvt.
Clinton outright sold them the plans.
http://www.warroom.com
http://harvest-trust.org
Rant, rant, rant....rant. Just a little bit of aggression there buddy, but thats ok, just take a little vacation.
What more can I say, we dont really need more nuclear technology in the world today. But that really isnt the point of this discussion is it.
Every country, including China and America, will protect thier interests. Its what "entities" do. It would be futile to attempt to prevent that.
--Nothings perfect, I just wish everyone would work a little harder to make it a better place.
What about developing the launch and delivery devices? Why isn't Loral being raked across the coals? (Because they give lots of money to the policians). Why isn't Hughes being rakd across the coal? (Because they give lots of money to the politicians).
Does Waco ring a bell? The US government is more than willing to use military force against its own citizens. They used tanks, tear gas, and machine guns against the very children they were saying they were there to protect. As people tried to flee the compound (looked like a farm building to me), they were gunned down by agents outside the building. At least one person trying to get out was run over by a tank.
I suggest that you read a bit of history about the expansionist policies of the USA since the end of WWII. The trouble and strife caused by the rest of the world pales into insignificance relative to the evils initiated and perpetrated by the US foreign department.
It is not your fault that you misunderstood me. My post was in response to someone who got a -1 score after brandishing Americans for our general stupidity (or something to that affect). In all likelihood, you have replied without reading the message that started the thread, and took my post to be anti-America as well! No big deal.
Perhaps /. should preserve a thread as one piece in one place, and not scatter the pieces to different boards.
Most of you have good points about distributed computing and that China could build one but the problem isn't China but who china might sale these things to (I.E. Lybia, Cuba, Iran and Iraq). It is the same reason I fear China having nuclear weapons, it's not them using them but who they might sell it to.
Ahem, the US is not that "educated" as you might think. The reason the US is doing so well is because of the brain drain that it has managed from the rest of the world. Look at the stats, the US ranks pretty low and only a single figure persentage could place Europe on the world map. On average most European and Asian countries blow the US out of the water. You should see what it takes an indian or an japanese kid to get into Uni. Human rights groups should do something about it.
George
Ahem, the US is not that "educated" as you might think. The reason the US is doing so well is because of the brain drain that it has managed from the rest of the world. Look at the stats, the US ranks pretty low and only a single figure persentage could place Europe on the world map. On average most European and Asian countries blow the US out of the water. You should see what it takes an indian or an japanese kid to get into Uni. Human rights groups should do something about it.
:-)
George
PS: National pride is a very powerful force. The Chineese had their embasy bombed that made about of billion of them pissed of at the US and even the Chineese goverment for not acting more hostile. That must be the worst amount of bad carma in history !!
That's exactly how I feel about the U.S. They're just like the borg of Star Trek: Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated. IMO they're the biggest THREAT to the cultural identities the world has ever faced. Also the US is the biggest THREAT to the environment and that pretty much affects all of us. If the american style of living infects other countries we'll be in deep sh*t environmentally.
Here in Europe the european cultural identity is crumbling especially among the youths, thanks to that pro-american bs coming out of the TV. You've got good marketing, which is very good in subverting people, it's just sad that we don't have enough countermeasures (read: pro-european bs from the TV) to stop it. Every kid wants to live in America, that's just perverse. Thank god they usually change their minds when they grow up.
I wonder when well have the worst talkshows, wrestling, wheel of fortune... K-marts and seven-elevens... no wait, we have those already, what's next ? NOOOOO !! I want to be an european not an american. At least our beer is better.
IIRC the development platform for the Playstation2 is linux which in my mind would indicate that given a network connectionit could be turned into a beowolf cluster.
The US should stop looking at the rest of the world as aliens, we have as much right to the planet as anyone else.
Furthermore, if the us government percieves that they are heading for conflict with another nation, then they should try and resove there differences with them, not "get them before they get us".
By denying technology (e.g. computers, encryption) to anyone but there own citizens the US Govt. is alienating themselves from rest of the planet.
Why would any country willingly share technology with the US, knowing that the US wouldnt do the same for them.
The US tries to get there way through fear and intimidation(give us what we want or you wont give you the "good" stuff), one day they will realise that co-operation is a much greater ally, (linux people should understand this)
Im not trying to inspire nationalist flames, a bit of natalism is good, but people should consider that the good of the planet is greater than ANY one nation.
One planet, one united nation.
The laws that are "IN PLACE" are obviously rediculously outdated as demonstrated by the fact that a games console is concered to be a supercomputer.
People are saying the the laws that are "IN PLACE" are stupid.
The law that judge something to be a supercomputer should not be a fixed value, it should a % of the fastest computer
You seem to have missed the most important political event of the late 20th century.
There are no longer any "Soviets".
I agree. Lets give the gift of knowledge to china and watch the damn gov. go down in flames. I am quite sure that most of china is like us, people simply getting along in life. The problem is the people who blindly follow, and most just happen to be employed by their gov. Of course if our gov. was not in their pocket, it might help.
Whenever I think of politicians and blind gov. lovers the phrase "who's your bitch?" springs to mind.
and nobody's looking for an atomic bomb
being flown in on an airplane
Wrong, in all major airports security is looking for anything like that.
Now, regarding the whole story with "nuke suitcases", it's BS. Can you give me the reference of a reliable source? This crap has started after Russian General Lebed BSed about suitcases, trying to impress the West. FYI in Russia the complete subject is considered to be a complete crap.
Stop spreading FUD, unless you have (right now) few references, which excepts BS magazines such as NYT (not limiting to).
Russia, if wanted, could nuke the whole planet 20-30 times, luckily no one is mad enough there to do so.
Huh? What are you babbling about? stolen secrets?
Who invented the rocket?...China.
First off, I'd like to say that I doubt the pop. numbered 1+ billion when gunpowder was invented.
The reason why China had a very innovative hhistory is because of specific emperors who encouraged education/knowledge/reaserch. Frankly, the majority of emperors were selfish, egotistical , penny-pinching morons who didn't give a damn about the rest of China, but there were some notable exceptions.
Those emperors who carelessly allowed China to rot were mainly responsible for the ignorance that enveloped the population because of their repressive policies. Isolationism may have contributed to this but I doubt it as Occidentals (latin for "westerners") eventually swarmed in to "reap the riches" (more like rob the country).
As for the supposed threat from China, remember that China has a very legit reason to build a large modern military because of the damage the west had dealt them in the past (Opium Wars, the various "spheres of influence") and that they certainly don't want that to *EVER* happen again.
take a history lesson. "Yes, at one time they excelled, but they grew lazy and are now extremely behind." typical american bullshit. nobody needs you to repeat the same rhetoric that the US propaganda machine has spoon fed you since you were a baby. what does that mean anyways?!? "they grew lazy"?!? as if collectively a whole society can "grow" lazy? the great americans on the other hand aren't lazy? they are only the biggest consumers and most wasteful people on the planet. you could have attributed China's current problems to political instability and misguided governing under dictatorships in this century but no you chose to go with "them dang chinese is lazy!" to put it in a colloquial phrase you may be familiar with. then you talk about capitalism/communism which you don't understand obviously. i don't see how you equate communism with oppression, but i imagine it is more of the propaganda you grew up with which is easier to spew out than actually making up your own mind about a subject. :)) want, keep refering to "we" and "they". as i see it, "we" are all just a bunch of people on a infinitesimal, revolving chunk of rock in space. unfortunately the governments of the world have done a good job of obfuscating the fact that THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE between "we" and "they". as a matter of fact, i don't believe US export restrictions have anything to do with "national security". no matter how you try, one cannot suppress information. the US doesn't have a significant technological lead over China or any other country for that matter.
guess what, communism AND capitalism will both "eventually fail" because they deal in the world of ideas, not of men. if capitalism hadn't already failed then the US wouldn't still need the Sherman Anti-Trust Act today. if capitalism hadn't failed then we wouldn't need labor protection laws (the workplace is too often still unsafe). however, the most loathsome part of your writing must be the fact that you, just like most governments (the MAN
these restrictions are ALL about economic supremacy. the US government and the interests they represent want to keep foreign entities economically strong enough to remain stable and weak enough to pose no threat. China and its many citizens represents a huge economic threat that could cause a major shift in power. in other words, keep them alive enough to feed off of but no more so. it's as it always has been, the privleged few living off of the masses.
And then US people wonder why everyone wants to
build nukes and point them at the USA. Gee I can't
think.
Maybe "Redneck October" is the next film we need 8)
>US encryption products are only a joke ......
I think you are missing the point. While US companies are prohibited from exporting the highest level encryption to other countries, there is nothing to stop a non US company developing 200 gigabit encryption (yes I`M EXAGERATING ) and selling in to other non US countries. The net result of this would be that the US would end up with the lowest level of encryption.
The net result is that non-US crypto companies have a way larger potential market than US companies, and need a lot smaller marketshare to survive and earn good money.
Just get someone in a third country without stupid restrictions like that to buy them in bulk, and reexport them.
You don't need to smuggle them. In most countries in the world it would be perfectly legal to buy them off the shelf and reexport them anywhere you'd like. Sony probably can't do it without repercussions for their US subsidiary. But any non-US third party can do it without any problems.
Hey,
Comments regarding the source of an article are NOT off-topic. Why was the original post moderated down to -1???????????
If the post was so unworthy why did it generate a zillion comments?
I can understand that you are so in love with the NYT, they are a great newpaper.
However, the NYT's WWW policy is archaic and should not be supported by such an esteemed publication as
If you must chose the NYT as your primary news source, how about posting alternative links?????
While not mentioning the beloved playstation, the following link discussed the same topic 3 days ago...
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2
Here's the official anti-youth NYT policy
6.3 You must be 18 years or older to subscribe to the Service; however, persons of all ages may use it. Thus, you may share your password and subscriber ID with others, subject to Section 6.4.
6.4 You are responsible for all usage or activity on your NYT WEB account, including use of the account by any third party authorized by you to use your subscriber ID and password. Any fraudulent, abusive, or otherwise illegal activity may be grounds for termination of your account, at NYTEMC's sole discretion, and NYTEMC may refer you to appropriate law enforcement agencies
I remember reading some US export conrol law that said that US companies aren't allowed to knowingly export controlled goods to be reexported to a country to which the US has embargoed goods.
I believe this is also the reason why many software licenses insist that the end user has to agree not to reexport to a country to which the US has embargoed goods.
The French are particularly upset by agreements that prevent them from exporting products containing US component where ever they wish.
Since china is big market, expect any japanese company to not use an american built CPU for their next things. Maybe something from Hitachi, Samsung built cheap alphas or ARMs...
:-).
I remember the days when giving an Amiga to a relative living a few 100 kilometers east of you was illegal as well
The US didn't erect the Berlin Wall, The USSR did. Can't you even get the simplest facts of history straight?
Yes, sure ... quite a lot about free speech and how all come together on the Internet but you dare to make some shitty piece of hardware available to others.
... the Chinese are quite able to build a rocket on their own and that needs some CPU and brain power too. Get a grip, Earth is not TM(USA).
Take note
At the end of WWII, the USA found itself in control of around 50% of the worlds wealth (what was left of it). The US goverment sat down and came up with a plan to ensure that the situation stayed that way, and even improved (in favour of the USA). There was a massive manufacturing surplus available in the USA, so they targetted Japan and Germany to be industrial leaders in their respective regions to help build a worldwide demand for American products. Both countries had already demonstrated their industrial prowess :-) The idea was that if they could promote capitalism (not democracy), then they could colonise the world econically.
The biggest problem with the plan is that every so often a poor country decides that they do not want to become an economic colony of the USA, so they decide to go it alone without the capitalism served up by the USA. Every time one of these countries looks like they may actually get a socialist democracy off the ground, the USA has done all that it can to stop the democratic process. The real threat is that a poor country will set a good example that other poor countries will follow, and we definitely can't have that!
> The American society is arrogant,
> poorly-educated, knows very litle about
> history, is very easly influenced, manipulated
> and brainwashed.
This may be true, but every society is this way, in general.
As a citizen, I would like to see the US take a
weaker role in world politics; especially in
Central America, but the economic incentives are
so great that our economy depends on it and
therefore the politicians will change nothing.
So the company is a Japanese company.
The chip is a Japanese chip.
I guess after nuking Japan, the US thinks Japan is a US territory.
Actually, I think the US thinks every piece of land, sea, and air is US territory. After, they're telling everyone that it's illegal to trade with Cuba (even though last I looked it was legal in my country, Canada).
>Well, I doubt YOU sent any aid. It's funny,
>poorer nations that need every penny they have
>to build their econmy have it in their hearts to
>spend 1-2% of their GDP on aid to the poor. How
>much does the rich US spend? 0.0001?
Actually, if you are talking about the poor inside the US, the figure is between 0.5 and 1%.
>Or look at the sitiation in Kosovo. Now that the
>fun and exitement of dropping bombs on civilians
>is over, the US goes home and declares that it
>is the job of Europe to take care of 100 000
>refugees, both Kosovars and Serbs, and rebuild a
>country that has been bombed back to the 19th
>Century.
The U.S. Congress was not only playing politics when they failed to give even the moral support of a resolution authorizing the bombing campaign.
Linux: Help keep the 'deci' in decitrillionaire.
==
THAT chip would be 3 or 4 generations behind because it was developed entirely by a country that Doesnt have AMD or Intel or any other chip manufacturer from a technologically advanced country selling stuff for them to reverse engineer.
==
If the Los Alamos debacle had taught you anything it should be that the world is a very small place. The Chinese have technology just as advanced as anything in the US or other Western hemisphere countries. If they didn't develop it themselves they can steal it. They may not have them in great numbers, but they have them.
I very much doubt that the major chip manufacturers have better security that Los Alamos (despite the rumors about Intel).
These people who write all of these laws have obviously never BEEN to China. I have (for a couple of days) and I've seen enough to know China is not a serious threat. How do I know this? My hotel room had a backup generator to keep the lights running in the event of regular power cuts (in Guangzhou, China's fourth largest and most developed city!) which occur almost every day. The buildings going up around me looked like they came out of the clearance bin at the dollar store- the place looks like the next typhoon would take it out. The cars in the city do not appear to have any emission controls or indeed even seat belts. This results in pollution so bad that everybody in the city has a cough. Tuberculosis is supposed to be rampant. And the final kicker is that when I got on the train to Hong Kong, they said they were "sold out", and the guide who was showing me around bought a ticket from a scalper- for LESS than the ordinary purchase price (he then showed it to the PLA soldier on guard to make sure it was real and I would not get shot boarding the train).
If the Chinese economy works like this (note that the railroads are a government monopoly with heavy military involvement) I can't imagine their military being able to do much.
Well, there are the pesky little problems of latency, vulnerability to RF jamming and ionization upon re-entry.
Easy. If millions of people breaj the law, the US government gets to selectively prosecute whichever one they feel like prosecuting this week, usually because that person displeased them for some other reason and violating the law was a convenient excuse.
Just because a law would make so many people into criminals that there is no way to catch them all, doesn't make the law harmless. The government can pick who they decide to catch.
I too have been dissappointed at the off topic flamatory posts. In all actuality, I will probably stop reading /. because of the purely idiotic content contained in many of the side posts regarding "Death to the USA" and other such nonsense.
:)
I grew up in Kansas, USA - make all the Dorthy jokes you want, but I have a wonderful family and am loved by them. After college I lived in Hong Kong (pre China) for 6 months, then in Beijing for almost a year (having to spend time outside of the country to get renewed visas). Then 2 years based in Australia while traveling world wide. (Computer consultant not military) Everywhere I have lived and visited I found the people pleasant. Most would inquire about the USA, and I would tell them - hey it is cool, and I love my country, but everywhere in the world is facinating - my time in HK holds some memories that I will keep close until I die. I still have many friends throughout China, Australia, South Africa, and the UK. We talk about computers, music, and the day to day grind of living - btw, my chinese friends do talk about censorship and not being able to see the latest movies, but they are happy when talking about food and drinks (which for me that is pretty much 80% of life
That said, here is my take. No place is prefect. You shouldn't judge a country by its government - normally it is the greedy, power hungry that rise to governmental power. Except for fanatics (and if you are fanatical about anything - you should be taken to a small room and had your head examined.), people are people. We all laugh in the same language. Export/Import laws are ridiculous, but there has to be boundaries - because some people are not smart enough to govern themselves and would abuse anything if given the chance. Someone put a boundary on this supercomputer thingy years ago - thinking they were safe for many years to come, happily for the computing community they were wrong. It will just be changed. If not - it will be ignored / gotten around. Hell I smoked a Cuban cigar yesterday - and the US has wrongfully embargoed that country for many years.
I normally don't post, but then I read the parent post and had to give support. As my mom always told me - if you don't have something nice to say, try at least to be constructive. If you can't be constructive - YOU ARE PROBABLY WRONG.
A real human.
Why is everyone on Earth convinced that Americans can't find Europe on a map? I'm an American. and I could probably still rattle off all the countries in Europe off the top of my head.
Just recently, 60 minutes had done an article on
how the US government allowed several Silicon Graphics supercomputers to be sold to China. The
concern was that these computers would allow Chinese scientists to simulate nuclear
weapons test. These new restrictions are what we
call over compenstation for a government
screw-up hehe.
Fact is, none of the counties that signed such treaties with the US really bother to enforce those restrictions - actually the Soviet Union (plus other Warsaw Pact countries) bought thousands of NEC computers in the '80s, via Japan.
Mind you, if these obsolete restrictions were enforced (haha) it would help Elbrus out no end.
I agree that the U.S. is arogant, but in this situation they have a reason to be worried. BY THE WAY THE RUSSIANS STOLE SECRETS FROM THE U.S. not the other way around. If it wasn't for espionage the cold war would have never happened.
COMMUNISM, ok it ain't all that bad of a idea, but you got a slight problem. NANOTECHNOLOGY? smells like 1984. I seriously doubt that nanotechology can do anything but create a totalitarian society, which will lead to the same problems that communism has today. Back though to democracy and capitalism being bad, they are screwed for the same reason communism is people. People everywhere are screwed, its a fact everywhere you go there will be the same percentage of stupid people. So wake up smart people ethier deal with the dumb or kill them, I suggest the first.
I am from Israel too, and it was funny reading this, especially since Merceds are designed in Intel brach here, in Haifa. Even more than that, A new 0.18 FAB is soon to be opened in Kiryat-Gat. I guess Intel is not going to produce 8088 there :-)
:)
So we will design the chips, produce them, and then beg US Gov to get some...
Sounds nice
Moshe Vainer
moshev@easybase.com
If you think for one moment the people on this side of the ocean are more intelligent than anyone else, you are gravely mistaken.
In fact, the people in the United States tend to be the DUMBEST - why else do you think that all these huge corproations hire foreign help? It's because their cheaper, plus they're a hell of a lot more educated.
The tactic of first implying that Americans are racist, by claiming that Americans are more intelligent, and then proclaiming that in fact not only are we racist, we are extremely dumb, is quite laughable. Americans are evil because we call others stupid, yet you are prestine for the reason that you call Americans stupid. Usually, these two don't go well right next to eachother. The public may sometimes not catch it if they are far apart from eachother in a document, but they notice when they are immediately adjacent. Keep working on your deceptive writing; you'll get better.
The education system is the United Fucking States is a joke - anyone who thinks otherwise, is as big as moron as the rest of them.
Your objective, clear and reasonable stance is illustrated by labelling America as the "United Fucking States." Usually, educated citizens can refrain from using such language. It is ironic, then, that you call us all uneducated. Generalizations are an excellent flag for the source of hatred, which can come from either uneducatedness or just plain anger. Then, your next line, claims basically that anyone who may disagree with me is "as big a moron as the rest of them." Again, a sharp edge of closed-mindedness is another indication of either an uneducated one or one who is so filled with hate they can barely accomplish basic logic. Claiming anyone who disagrees is a big moron is an indication of someone who couldn't handle being contested.
By the way - it's DEMOCRACY and CAPITALISM that are bad - NOT COMMUNISM. Communism is the most perfect form of government in existance - the only problem is the people have to be PERFECT, as well - in order for Communism to work.
Now that's just plain hilarious. A government has to work with people, and people are not perfect, nor will they ever be. Claiming that communism is the perfect government, provided the people are perfect, invalidates your entire argument in a flashy display of illogicality. Governments work with people, not perfect beings.
As a side note, Communism is actually a very effective government on very small scale. When the population exceeds the small scale, it ceases to be communism-then, some people gain more than others. If Chinese Communism is so wonderful, then exactly why does the government own more land than any other entity? Why do they own more money? Why are some richer? Why are there poor? Why are some rich? If communism worked, I would not have to ask these questions. Similarly, the United States has as much of a democracy as China has communism-very little. Democracy works well on the small scale as well, and, like communism, ceases to be true democracy on higher scales. The United States has what is closer to a republic.
Your last statement is just about as hilarious, though perhaps more confusing.
Until Nanotechnology becomes a reality, I do not see this happening.
How nanotechnology will make imperfect being perfect is beyond me. It appears that nanotechnology is being treated like a godsend here-that it will solve all our world problems. All humans will be nice to eachother, famine and wars will not occur, we will forget the meaning of refugee. Pollution will stop coloring the skies, and the holes in the ozone allowing the sun to burn our skin will be patched up. Sorry, but nanotechnology will not be the godsend that solves all of humanities problems. I guarantee you it will not make humans perfect. I fail to see any logic or any correlation to anything in that last sentence.
Overall, your post speaks of hate in an illogical way. I think you're an intelligent person, but perhaps you should calm yourself down and seriously think about your post next time. Personally, I loved your bit about communism being perfect as long as humans are perfect-that is a true gem. Humans will *never* be perfect, nor will they even be able to define what perfect is.
How does one know where one's gov't have missiles pointing to? I guess in the US, the government never lies, so they must for sure not have missiles pointed at Iraq, Russia, Cuba, or China. Anyways, it IS a moot point like you said since it wouldn't take too long to aim the missiles.
As for Kent State and the 60s, I wasn't aware of any incidents where students attacked police. I simply assumed that it happened. Just like I assumed that the incident in China surely involved at least SOME students throwing at the very least rocks at the police.
That's not my point though. My point is that the intellectual freedoms that China gives its own citizens right now is equivalent to those that US citzens had already received by the 60s. Furthermore, if the US wants China to "be like Mike", er, be like the US, then what I'm saying is that it should let China progress at their own pace. The US progressed at their own pace and by their own account the US isn't such a bad country, eh?
The US should not strongarm China into progress. You can't do that. It won't work (Russia).
If the US wants Communist countries to Americanise then it should do to those countries what it does to Canada and to Europe. It should invade those countries, not with arms, but with mass American media and products. It shouldn't embargo Cuba. It shouldn't deny China entry to the World Trade Organisation. In fact, it should do everything it can to trade with these countries. If US policies are so much better than Communist policies, then it should prove it to these countries. Show them all the material goods that Americans have which regular Communist citizens can only dream to afford. This is how you convert people. You can't convert people by bombing their embassies or denying them the right to trade for food or medicine. This only makes those people hate the US even more.
actually the hiroshima nuke was only 15kt. and the Nagasaki one didn't make it up to 50kt either
Pirates man!
This kind of exporting of US law should be
ignored by the rest of the world. Taking it
seriously only encourages them.
Oh god, not another nuclear weapons "expert".
"Suitcase nukes are 1-10kt high-yeild devices".
1-10kt is a _low_ yield device. The two bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were in the 15 to 25 kt range. KT is short for kilo-ton. As in, explosive power of one thousand tons of TNT.
As for being able to slip past measures used to detect "normal" bombs.
Lets explain some things. Most nuclear bombs now
days operate off of the implosion principle. Explosive charges are arrayed around the primary
(either plutonium or uranium) and detonate, compressing the primary to critical mass, and it goes boom. The key word here is explosive, as in
the kind airport chemical sniffers look for. The
same kind that you find in ordinary lets blow up
the plane bombs.
Also, airport metal detectors will work just fine
on plutonium and uranium.
As for these suitcase nukes, its physically difficult if not impossible to build the so called
briefcase nuke.
Nuclear terrorism isn't something you have to worry about. People who have nukes don't give them away to terrorists. They use them as deterrents. If New York should suddenly disappear under a mushroom cloud (or rather several, since that is what it would take), everyone knows there would be hell to pay.
What you SHOULD worry about is the Dong Feng 5-A
ICBM with 8-14 MIRV warheads in the 500 kt range.
That kind of thing can ruin your whole day.
While this is true at the elementary and high school level, it isn't true at the College and University level. Its one of the rather weird ways in which the world works. Besides knowing where tenga is don't really do you much good if your designing an N-bomb or a high end microprocessor.
...well, on their gun boats of course, wearing navy uniforms.
*l*
don't they until recently catagorize nail guns as projectiles? hence one needs weapon export license and usage. *l*
and I tought encryption was the only stupid laws in the planet.
Okay, let's try removing all ethnic Chinese workers in Silicon Valley and observe the US economy....
I can imagine how exciting that curve will be.
(Oh, you think positively it will be up? fine...)
Agreed. I have a right to my privacy. Why do they need a "free" registration? This is "free beer" free. Not "article can be freely distributed" free. I mean, of all places to find these links, Slashdot?
Yeah, right. China has all US tech to 1999. Uh, huh.
Not exactly all. It's called media glamorization. They may have been obtaining nuclear weapons information up to 1999. Not *all*.
This is sort of pointless. Even if they *wanted* to restrict Playstation 2 explorts, if they couldn't stop data theft from Los Alamos, how on earth could they ever hope to stop any sort of exports? Heck, I could waltz over with a Cray.
Well, if I had a Cray, I probably wouldn't take it to China or give it to *anyone*, but I digress.
Agreed. The US should try to advance tech, not hold it back. Don't try to restrict Chinese development of ICBM nukes. Go out and develop our own nuclear weapon missile defense network.
Some of the coolest stuff in the world comes from arms research races and fear of wars. Nylon, a huge amount of computer stuff...I'm not going to list it.
Besides, I thought most of the Playstation's processing power was in its graphics system. Isn't that just a bunch of matrix processors or something? Not exactly applicable to nuclear weapons research, even if they wanted to?
No, you evil-minded person. He's talking about Linux and Torvalds.
Whereupon the person who passed the law that millions of people doesn't like gets voted out of office and shouted down. And the next politician, the one who wants to curry favor with the people, fights the hardest (and most visibly) to take the law-passer down.
Democracy works. As long as the people are educated. We wouldn't have these stupid technology-meets-law problems if everyone (particularly the general public, which are being led like sheep) knew what they were talking about.
If that (illegal hardware in only small quantities) was true, you wouldn't see remarked Pentium IIs in the massive quantities that you do. And that's in the US. Where the retailers, end users, and only government involved all hate the remarkers. In a Playstation 2 explorting case, the end government wants the stuff, the end users want the stuff, the end retailers want the stuff, the people in the originating country don't care, the makers want the stuff to be sold, and the only people who are upset is one government. The US exports incredible quantities of goods. You can't keep something in.
Still, these idiotic US export restrictions are going to start *hurting* the US when other countries become more competitive. (Software encryption, supercomputers, etc.) Don't like US export regs? Move your company to Ireland! (which, according to a Reader's Digest article I just read, is undergoing a massive boom in the tech business, as people move from the US to Ireland and set up business)
I assume Ireland is a bit more lenient than the US...heck, why are they gonna restrict the people that bring them business?
Maybe I'll go live in Ireland someday.
Ummm...I agree with the problems with foreign and domestic policy. But...do you perhaps live in Kosovo or something? Bomb just knock down your house or something?
It's called MAD. It isn't *worth* it to wage war. Well, unless you're the US and think that it's worth it to bomb a small country like Yugoslavia to show off a tough-guy image and intimidate other countries in bargaining. ("Well...we can't come to a deal. I'd be very careful...we wouldn't want you to end up like Yugoslavia!") The only other wars you get are when religious fanatics start poking each other, like in Pakistan/India. World War II only happened because everyone thought they would gain...Hitler thought he could get a lot of great land without too many losses, and the US thought that they were gonna lose business (check your history books...the major reason the US sided with the Allies is becase they had far more economic ties with England/France than Germany...they weren't worried about "The Nazis taking over the world!").
Now, terrorist organizations, they're a kink in the system....
Uh. Microsoft the Communists and Apple the Nazis. Get real. We Linux Facists are the only true power here!
I'd watch it.
No kidding. You notice how NATO doesn't attack world powers? It'd be to costly in men and resources. The reason Kosovo went through is because NATO leaders thought they could do it with little loss (in fact, they managed to do it with none).
NATO would see little benefit in attacking Russia or China. It won't.
Amen.
And poorly-educated? Gee, I wouldn't put them first, but compared to 95% of the nations out there...
Easily influcenced? Okaaaay. So far they haven't been suckered by a dictator. How many nations can say that?
Brainwashed? No more than any other country.
I wanted to refute this....but you're so right. What would a terrorist organization get out of blowing up New York? Nukes are very expensive, even though they do a pretty nasty bit of work. On a effect/cost scale, biological weapons are a lot higher. They're cheaper to mass produce (well, in general...don't know about every one), and have a much larger potential area of effect. They require less knowledge to build. And a lot of them are more horrific. Imagine a nasty terrorist group got a good sample of the Ebola virus (heck, they probably did...Ebola is incredibly intimidating, it probably wasn't incredibly hard to get ahold of (as long as you didn't mind a bit of personal risk), and there are lots of people paid to think of things like this). Now, they threaten to hit a major city with their sample (grown to whatever quantity they require). Newsmedia fall all over it, and show footage of horribly dying past victims of Ebola.
A terrorist group wouldn't run out (they could grow more). There isn't a lot of knowledge required for deployment (or, compared to nukes, even development), it's cheap, it spreads, it's a lot scarier than a big mushroom cloud, it would probably have a higher death toll, it's easily transported...
The problem would actually be containment. You do something like this in New York, 90% of the *world* population (Ebola has a 80-90% death rate, I believe) says goodbye. You can't quarantine New York, like we could sections of Africa. Of course, if your terrorist group is gutsy enough, and they don't care about dying, it doesn't matter. Plus, viruses aren't like bacteria. We could eradicate smallpox because bacteria don't last forever, and are often fragile. Viruses are incredibly tough...they aren't really living, after all. Once you infect New York, New York (and wherever the disease spreads) *stays* diseased. A hundred years later, Ebola could pop back up from a single virus(?) left in a gum wrapper in a landfill. For the forseeable future, Ebola would be with us. Viruses mutate...there wouldn't be any hope for a vaccine.
Nukes are flashy, but the amount of knowledge and hard-to-get materials they require...no, nuclear terrorism isn't a very likely scenerio. Bio-terrorism is.
Agreed...that the US lags too far behind for its wealth. But, there are also different focuses of the education. Japan focuses extremely heavily on doing well on the standardized tests that allow a student to continue in school and eventually rate them. Maybe a Japanese schoolchild could stomp a US schoolchild all over on standardized testing (and be neater...I read a Reader's Digest article saying that Japanese schools don't have janitors...the schoolchildren have clean-up duties), but suppose someone has to come out with a wildly new chip design. That takes a lot of creativity, independent thought, etc. Japanese schoolchildren get taught to fit in, conform, and do extremely well following what they've been told to do. Initiative isn't really high on the list of things taught. Japan kicks rear when it comes to efficiently doing something they already know how to do...say, producing computer monitors. Their workers, when told to produce x with minimum resources, do better than most other nations. Most of the very highest tech and research comes out of the US, though. How many really incredible new technologies have come from Japan recently? Compare it to the US. For example, I suspect the US will be far up in introducing and working on the bleeding edge on the Internet...new protocols and so on. On the other hand, once something comes out, you'll see a shift to nations that can work with new things well. As things settle down, I predict lots of Internet business moving to places like Japan.
Is the US the only source of high tech? Of course not. Is it the most significant? You bet.
>China isn't going to become a superpower like the US anytime soon.
They COULD be, but I doubt it too - though for different reasons. The chinese leaders are walking atightrope right now. So far they have managed to introduce limited market economy without muchpersonal freedom, but unrest is growing in the country. China is a mindboggingly huge country that is the oldest still living civilization, consisting of hundreds of different peoples and languages. If a civil war breaks out, it would be a tradegy on a scale not seen before. Imagine Bosnia with 1.2 billion citizens.
Yeah. And I think China will do a Russia, if not worse.
>Why? Because the supress freedom of press and speech there, which is not going to help people become more educated.
Well, America has freedom of press, but it doesn't seem to do a lot of good for YOUR education.
Umm. I would call freedom of the press and speech almost a prerequisite to solid education. It just doesn't guarantee it. The reason the US has a problem is because the people in the US have taken social engineering, marketing, and entertainment to a far finer art than in any other country. Take TVs, Playboy, Jerry Springer, and all our other vices, dump them in any other country, and they won't be much better off than we are. And that's what American culture is -- the triumph of marketing and entertainment. American culture is stomping that of other nations right and left. Go over to, say, France, the first thing you'll see is a McDonalds. In Russia you'll see American movies. I guarantee that the reason Europe does better than the US in some areas is that American culture hasn't hit it completely yet. Just wait. Any other country that hits our level will also be rich. And become self-indulgent, just like us. And put massive emphasis on entertainment, just like us. Things don't change that much when you cross borders. At least people in the US have had a few more years to adapt to things.
>It'll take a long time to revamp it, and the only way they can get better stuff is to steal it from us
That is where you are wrong. The west is currently ahead in the technological race, but the Chinese are smart and dismissing them like that would be a mistake.
The Chinese? Riiiight. Smart? Maybe. Hard to measure intelligence. Also ignorant -- knowledge is easier to measure. There's no hope for the current generation. If the Chinese school system makes leaps and bounds, the next generation could compete. Maybe other countries could compete, but not China. Too many people still plowing fields with oxen.
>Russia? First, how are they going to pull their country out of economic ruin? Second, the only reason anyone cares about Russia is that they usd to be a superpower and still have lots of nukes. They are really just a junky broke country with corrupt and stupid leaders.
Russia is in deep shit for sure, but don't you understand that an unstable country is MORE DANGEROUS than a functioning one. Nukes have gone missing for crying out loud. Who has them now? Suicidal Hizbolla guerillas who want to give the US a little present? The Russian Mafia wanting to blackmail a nation? If you knew a little bit about history, you would know that it was the economic ruin after WWI and German resentment over their defeat that made it possible for Hitler to rise to power. And he actually managed to rebuild the country in a few years. As you said, they have lots of nukes. Would you want Zhirinovski in control of them?
Good point about Hitler. People make fun of Yeltsin, but I'm surprised we didn't get a far more evil and corrupt person. I think the original writer meant that Russia doesn't have much ability to back up its threats. It may well be dangerous, but the danger isn't under its control.
>Retaliates for what? All the aid we've sent them?
Well, I doubt YOU sent any aid. It's funny, poorer nations that need every penny they have to build their econmy have it in their hearts to spend 1-2% of their GDP on aid to the poor. How much does the rich US spend? 0.0001? Or look at the sitiation in Kosovo. Now that the fun and exitement of dropping bombs on civilians is over, the US goes home and declares that it is the job of Europe to take care of 100,000 refugees, both Kosovars and Serbs, and rebuild a country that has been bombed back to the 19th Century.
Personally, I would like to nuke the US for what you have done to the environment, but that is another matter...
Agreed, the US isn't the most-liked country in the world. But it's not a charity. The reason its rich is because the US has always looked out primarily for US business. You may not believe it, but its true. I agree with you about the US waging war and leaving its mess behind...that's disgusting. The actual quote was even more moronic -- more like "The US has gone to the expense of fighting Europe's war, and so Europe has agreed to take on the rebuilding". Okaaaay. Let's see. The US fought the (relatively cheap) war that *it* wanted to fight, over lots of complaints from other countries about bombing a country it had no business in. Then it expects those other (poorer) countries to pay for the (hundreds of times more expensive) reconstruction. The US takes a token 30,000 refugees. It dumps huge sums on other European countries. I admit, if this whole thing was done to ensure future US economic dominance, it worked like a charm. On the other hand, I get sick of hearing people talk about nuking people.
>Any military attack from Russia would mean no more Russia.
...and if they used nukes, no more US, no more Europe, and nuclear winter. Wohoo.
Therefore it won't happen. Which is the point of the original author. No country is going to attack the US. Fine.
>"The American society is arrogant,poorly-educated, knows very litle about history, is very easly influenced, manipulated and brainwashed."
And this is different from the people in other countries how?
Everyone slams the US because, given its advantages, it *should* be much farther ahead. US education isn't that bad. Seriously. The US just isn't that dumb. Here's an example of different approaches...Hong Kong is spending billions to build a sort of high-tech industry (I was reading a proposal on their government Web site a while ago). What businesses? "Interactive multimedia..." blah, blah, blah. The sort of stuff that maybe could have gone over in the US back when Gore was inventing the Internet, but not now. Other governments just don't *get* stuff. The US isn't good, but it certainly isn't bad.
It is a matter of degree, and the stupidity and ignorance is spreading, but your country defenitely leads the pack.
Wrong. I take it that you haven't spent much time in the majority of the world...Third World nations. As I said, the US should be number one, but you're exaggerating failures on its part.
This is a quote from a forum on Salon Magazine that I think sums it up pretty good.
Pretty "good", eh? What was that about solid education?
You can get an example of anything you want. Salon magazine. Jeez. I can go and get lots of quotes that convincingly show that all Brits are turning homosexual, that the Jews are all part of a big conspiricy to beat up poor Nazis, that...well, anything. You can't use this as an example.
On the other hand, the head of the board of education (a conservative rural minister) in my county wrote the newspaper a year or so ago. I still remember his letter. He was writing about how all the Asian countries collapsed their markets on purpose to drag down the US with them. His next letter (complaining about how colleges refused to teach the Biblical concept of human creation, instead of evolution), ranted on about how colleges and institutions of higher education were destroying the US. He argued that the manger scene was the keystone of Western civilization, and that colleges and "scheming PhDs" were trying to destroy it. I'm not joking...I think I still have the newspaper clippings somewhere. Incidentaly, he just won his re-election.
Every time I want to argue in favor of US education, I think of this guy, and feel like a hypocrite.
Because a lot of our population is a) in ghettos in Los Angelas and other urban areas, and can't ready, or b) immigrated from Mexico, and never went through our educational system.
a) Is true. The bulk of population is in urban areas, and you wouldn't believe some of the conditions. Yes, there are educational problems in poor urbar areas. This *is* a US problem, no argument.
b) I'm not kidding. Look at US demographics. The number of Hispanics in the US is supposed to be far greater than the number of blacks, and is just incredible. I think that a third of the population is supposed to be Spanish speaking by 2002. Now, how are you going to see Hispanics go from something like 15% to over 30% in ten years? This is a country of 250 million, here, and blacks and whites are also having kids like crazy. It isn't just large families. Nope, that's a *lot* of immigration happening. Heck, I wouldn't stay in Mexico either, if the US had an incredible economy and a ton of wealthy, completely unmotivated people. The thing is, Mexico's educational system is a lot worse than the US, so you see a serious impact on the US's educational levels.
I think you'll find that a lot of educational problems are due to socio-economic differences, and background differences.
I'll bet you they do. Los Alamos scientists probably prefered open exchange of information. Secrecy was just an annoyance. Intel (and other tech) execs have their jobs and their company at stake. Intel spends hundreds of millions on R&D and Wang Loo International rips off their design?
I'll bet that (mature) tech companies are *darn* careful with their technology.
I mean, I fail to see Windows source code floating around China, despite the fact that it would be an obvious advantage to China (possibly a much greater one than any nuclear weapon secrets)
Of course, maybe that's because it's secret.
Uhhh....yeah. And the MacOS was probably designed on some earlier computer, too. Probably Apple IIIs or IBMs. It doesn't mean it runs on them. Heck, *most* video game development goes on with environments under Windows or UNIXes or whatever. Imagine, for a moment (even ignoring the difficulties of creating the bootstrap code) trying to use a Super Nintendo as a development platform.
(Hmmm....create an array of polygon structures...that's Up-Up-Right-Down-Left-Left-L-A-Down-B)
Ah, but Linux already runs on the Palm....
The top secret Chinese Palm Parallel Nuclear Simulation Project had been going on for years...
And you have a problem with War on Drugs?
Some of us don't go home and blast our brains with drugs all day. I think that if you talked to our founding fathers (you know, those people that did up the Constitution that people like to quote when they want to legalize drugs), one of the few freedoms that they wouldn't have wanted to give us is the right to destroy our minds. (Yeah, Benjamin Franklin, famous scientist and inventor, advocate of idiocy...riiiight) Even without the associated crime and damage to the economy, they would have said no.
People running around with stupid excuses for legalizing drugs sound exactly like people running around with stupid excuses for ripping off software. There's other ways to enjoy yourself besides using drugs. Theres OSS. Keep both them in mind.
And the reason the US is way up there is because it's always looked out for itself. Period. Without regard for anyone else. May be cruel, but that's how it got there. All the wealth and the luxuries you take for granted (the ability to buy the joints you're advocating, for example) come from this.
I swear, it makes me so mad. People work for centuries to get the US where it is. Now, people what they have for granted, and whine about how they can't dope up, and why the US always seems to be working for itself instead of others. Benjamin Franklin wouldn't have just been upset, heck, he would have been disgusted with us.
I'm serious. "ViperX2", who quotes Men In Black (profound, no?) and advocates drug use, who can't spell, who doesn't consider netizens "real Americans" (gee, thanks, Vip).....this is your typical US citizen. Sheesh.
Course, I'm not one to talk, flaming, and posting as an AC, but honestly...
Me and my TI-82 Parallel Nuclear Simulation System
This has got to be the most idiotic post of all time. Let's see. Japan does great manufacturing. Great. We know that. Japan also does almost 0 R&D compared to the US. You evidently didn't know that. Where do you think the tech for the stuff Japan produces gets created? Japan? Well, some of it. Most of it in the US.
Okay, let's see. According to you, next year, Japan is going to take over with China and Korea as right hand men (two right hands?). Hmm. One country getting pounded by economic depression with a fraction of the US influence it once had (in the 80s, when people in the US were actually worried about Japan) is going to buddy up with a massively ignorant poor nation that has incredibly poor education and technology levels and another nation split in half by war that also does tons of manufacturing but not much R&D and take over the world. Okay. I'll believe it when I see it. In the meantime, I don't think I'll start learning Japanese.
I already laughed myself out when I downloaded Navigator-128 bit -- mutinitions. Yessire, here I am with my short-range ballistic missiles, my F-15 strike fighters, and my 128-bit encryption-capable Navagator. Everybody just stand back.
Research at UCLA has shown that moderate cannabis users are more sociable and do better at exams than non-smokers. Go figure.
From personal experience, people that I meet that either are (or have been) regular cannabis users are among the most intelligent and creative people I know. These include four University graduates (and I'm not talking "art history" but "chemistry" and "physics") and a Cambridge Phd. Not what I would call "idiots".
Yes, there are other ways to enjoy yourself than taking drugs. There are other ways to have sex than in the missionary position - it doesn't mean that it should be illegal. Are these people *really* hurting anyone else? Are they causing fights every friday night like people at the pub and dying from lung cancer like smokers? All they want is to be able to sit at home and have the occasional joint without interfering tossers like you telling them what they can and can't do with their own lives and bodies.
Biologicals:
Ebola, while flashy, isn't that nasty all things considered. It has a very high death rate, like all hemorrhagic fevers, but exposure to the disease is by blood born products. Most people who catch and die of Ebola are immediate family members of previously exposed individuals who do not take proper precautions.
A more sinister prospect is smallpox, which was largely responsible for wiping out the American Indians prior to the arrival of the Europeans en masse. Recent news reports say that North Korea and Iraq, in addition to the US and Russia have stockpiles of this.
* * *
The problem with biologicals is they are equal
opportunity killers. What you spread around at JFK Airport today will be in Islamabad tomorrow. Because of this, most biological weapon research has centered around debilitating agents such as denge fever, or agents that attack livestock or crops.
* * *
The super-plague scenario: not likely. Most terrorism is state sponsored. Lets say the US has a massive outbreak of a highly contagious, highly lethal disease. People start dying all over. It spreads to Canda, Mexico, Europe, but hmmm, Iran is seemingly immune to the outbreak. You draw the conclusion. Remember, the US nuclear stockpile stands at some 10,000 strategic warheads (to be drawn down to 2,000 if and when START II is implemented).
* * *
Why nuclear terrorism isn't likely.
1) Access to refined fissionables is tightly controlled.
2) Refining fissionables requires an extensive infrastructure, well beyond the means of any terrorist organization (unless you consider some governments terrorist organizations).
3) The physics of nuclear weapons construction are not trivial. Even if you get the fissionables, which while difficult is possible in this day and age, you have to know what to do with it.
4) Making a bomb out of raw fissionables and explosives requires access to fairly high quality machine tools, even if you are going to just build a gun assembly device rather than an implosion device (which is more efficient->makes a bigger bang for the buck, and smaller, but much harder to make).
5) What this adds up to is an effort requiring the organization and resources of a nation. There is a reason Iraq took years to get even close to building a weapon despite having Uranium refining operations.
So it basically boils down to requiring a nation state to make or acquire nukes.
Once you, as a leader, have a nuke, what do you do with it? So far, the best use of nukes has been demonstrated to be deterrence. No one has yet invaded a nuclear power (unless you count Kashimir), nor has a nuclear power had to endure the ignomany of air strikes or foreign intervention on their soil since acquiring nukes (note, pissant spots like the Falklands don't count, I mean China proper, USA proper, UK proper, France proper, and SU/Russia proper).
If I have a nuke, am I going to give it to a wacko terrorist who I may or may not have control over? Not likely.
Some terrorists are really just highly trained operatives with no idealogical motivation besides patriotism to whoever they are serving (ie, their motivation isn't kill USA or Ahkbar Alah, but orders from higher up). If you get the combination of a rogue leader ala Hitler or Kim Il Jong the little emperor, a vendetta, and nukes, then you may have a bad combination. North Korea, of course, has nukes, but they can't even take on the South Korean navy. Actually managing to smuggle a nuke to the US would be laughable (although they've demonstrated the ability to hit Japan with a balistic missile).
These machines unlike crays will be commodities. They will be available off the shelf to anyone. They are small and can be transported easily. How difficult will it be to smuggle these computers to the afore mentioned countries? The various agencies/organisations which the US government feels that they should not be having these computers will be the first to get them. Only people who will not get these computers will be the common innocent people of these countries who might want these computers for the same reason as most of us here.
Yeah, there is a way out. Take these computers off the list of commodity items. That is, everybody who wants to buy these machines goes through a background check and give permission to the law enforcement agencies to check their workplace or home (randomly) to ensure that the machines are still with them. If you want to sell your computer, you might have to get permission. Sounds scary?
The above was worst case scenario. It is unlikely to happen. Considering the persecution of Zimmerman, It is not impossible. I think not only should the big wigs in computer industry be worried, the common people should also pay attention to these kind of things
The title _Corporate Espionage_ by Ira Winkler (primapublishing.com 1997) details how ridiculously easy it was for one man, Bill _____, to loot the secrets of both AMD and Intel and hand them over to Cuba and China. More than a billion dollars worth. Relavant chapter is _Chips and Dips_.
The idea that the nitwits in the US gov't are going to keep anything secret is laughable. The whole premise of this embargo has me ROTFLMAO.
May as well release Jonathon Pollard and Aldrich Ames, this stuff is beyond punishment.
Probably because they don't exist yet, duh.. God.. some people..
Moron..
Extradition? Heh, I doubt a foreign country (say, Japan) would extradite its OWN nationals to the US for breaking the US's laws (but not that Japan's). Should the Taliban Afghans try to extradite American Citizens for drinking alcohol???
If the chip is neither designed nor manufactured here, the US can't even bother trying. And even the design part is iffy; there are no export restrictions on a company's own designs; they are freely sent back and forth between one company's multinational offices.
This message is in direct reply to the parent and the parent's parent.
It doesn't really matter if the Chinese obtain a "supercomputer" by networking thousands of commodity machines together that isn't really mobile. The primary technology that they are after is not individual processors, but rather large numbers of machines that can be used in parallel to solve a single problem. In this case, that single problem is the simulation of nuclear devices. Most nations in the world have signed a nuclear test ban treaty, which means that they are prohibited from exploding nuclear weapons. This was a strategic move on the part of the United States because we are one of the only superpowers with enough technological skills to simulate nuclear tests without exploding actual bombs. By getting other nations to agree to this treaty, it gives us a strategic advantage.
And, yes, it is possible to use commodity machines and fast interconnects (check out Myrinet from www.myri.com) to do about the same thing as a supercomputer in this context. I was one of the original developers of the NT Supercluster at NCSA. In December 1998, the Wall Street Journal ran a front-page story about how China was using our technology to try to do nuclear simulations just as I described above.
So I guess the whole point, as several have pointed out correctly, is that it is not really possible to prevent the spread of this technology to countries such as China.
I'm disappointed.
I used to think
Personally the article on PS 2 is little more than a novelty, of course the restrictions will either be lifted, changed or they'll get an exemption. If not, we'll just see a lot of grey imports heading over to China from Hong Kong, Europe, and probably the US as well. However much the government might like it to, US law simply doen't apply outside the US.
What is of interest to me here is the eagerness with which people turn a thread which highlights how hard it is to legislate in such a fast paced environment (the high tech industry as a whole) into an excuse for flag-waving and racism.
The US government is waaaaaaaaaaay from being perfect (for starters lets see if they can get around to paying their UN subscriptions!). In a lot of ways it is way from being even acceptable. The same goes for China, and Japan, and most of the world to be honest. The fact is some people are far too ready to believe propaganda. The chinese people, while largely poor by our standards, are very highly educated, have a low crime rate, and work hard. The major cities are much safer to live in than say NY or london. Remember kids : Communism != Socalism != bad. The chinese government is certainly corrupt, and has a terrible human rights record, both at home and in neighbouring countries like Tibet. But the fact is the US govt. is scared of it, otherwise how come they don't send in the troops to liberate that country? Oh of course...it doesn't sell as much oil to the US as Kuwait.
I don't want to carry on with the offtopic posting, so I won't even bother to correct the numerous factual inaccuracies regarding Taiwan, Vietnam, WWII, Berlin etc etc. All I can say is that the net is a wonderful learning tool - use it to educate yourself (not only in anatomy). Just because you live in the "free" west don't be fooled into thinking everything you see on tv is true...
Yours, a proud capitalist.
Basically you can replace the word "China" with the word "USA" or any other country in your message.
I'm sure USA has missiles pointing at several countries. Do you know for sure they're not?
And even if they're not pointing missiles at anyone (which I doubt), how long would it take them to do so.
The US has killed its own people as well. I won't even mention slavery or the deportation of Japanese in WWII.
What about Kent University. What about the (white) anti-war protesters that got shot at in the 60s. I'm not American so I won't profess to know your history, but maybe an American can enlighten us on this. How are those protesters any different than the protesters at Tianamen. You call China evil for shooting at student protesters but what about when the US shoots at their students?
China IS taking steps towards democracy. The president and the premier are pro-west and want to modernise. Yes, some people yelling for freedom are likely still jailed. However you can't democratise a country overnight. You tried this with Russia and look what happened. If you want China to democratise, you have to do it slowly. Let them take it at their own pace. It will happen.
I'm sure the people and government of the US weren't always so enlightened and open to free speech. However, over time speech has (supposedly) become more free. Even coloured people can (supposedly) speak freely in the US now.
Lets see, I'll do the math and give you a history lesson at the same time.
1+ billion people,
invented gunpowder 600 years before the west had any idea about it ( amoung numerous other things ) and we treat the as if they're stupid and cant figure out this stuff on their own? Thats either arrogance or stupidity.....
Frankly its just easier to steal and guess what my friends in the US... you stole a good portion of it ( tech nology ) from the russians but hey lets not mention that.
The chinese people are equally capable of being brilliant ( maybe even more so ) than the people at LANL or LLNL and guess what they got a work ethic like no one in the west. If they put forth the effort it could be insanely scary what they could do.... Besides they already have nukes.
I hate this ( primarily based ) US arrogance that says that they get to regulate who can and cant play in the sandbox...who died and made you GOD... ( that goes for other countires as well but the US is the worst perpetrator of this kind of hypocrisy ).
In no way do I wish to see any country with NUkes or advanced guidance systems for them...the US included but unfortunately they exist and will continue to until people of this planet can learn to live together and the west ( again primarily the US but this historically goes back a long ways ) can stop trying to impose there beliefs and way of life on other countires ( ie. only countires just like the US are valid and any country run under a communist or Religous government is inherently "BAD" ).
oh well I'm done ranting for now....
Hey if we dont sell the to the chinese eventually they'll learn how to make them better than us and then they'll just sell them to us making their economy stronger. 1+ billion people is one hell of a potential consumer market.
The article said that some chip ran 1600 TOPS, above the limit of 2000 TOPS. That looks like it's under...
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100% pure freak
-joev
Posted by Remarque:
/vital/ we never forget that the United States, while able to pick on Serbia and Somalia with impunity, will not be able to do any such thing against China for many years, if ever.
Ok...first of all, I'd like to say that I feel there is no real danger of shipping Playstations, or high level computer products to China. After all, we're still not talking about anything capable of directing ICBMs, here. We're talking about a faster engine for playing Star Wars: Racer. But...with that in mind, a few comments about your cavalier attitude toward China.
China is a big country, with a lot of people. Granted, they have been trapped under the dual thumb of communism and low technology, but their current administration is mixing communism with capitalism, and doing everything within their power to raise the technology level. (which, we have seen, includes stealing technology from us) Economists predict that, by 2020, China's total economy will be over 50% larger than ours. (assuming similar growth to the two economies) This means, that they will soon be able to mobilize those billion people to build things faster and create a military that could walk over much of the world.
Now, granted, the Chinese military is not much to speak of today. And their Navy is practically nonexistant. However, it must be remembered that in the Korean War, when China entered on the side of our opposition, we were forced into a stalemate we could not break. Also, it must be considered that Russia, at the height of its Cold War strength, considered a war with China to be a "meat grinder." A billion people, even armed with pick axes, could defeat a more technologically advanced power. Ask Germany. They experienced that first hand in the second World War.
So, while the issue at hand is silly, the greater one is not. We should be doing everything in our power to keep ourselves level with China on this global playing field, and not let an industrial, hardworking people, whose only weakness is a temporary gap in technology, gain the upperhand, which could lead to our defeat.
That attitude is the arrogance you speak of. And it is
Posted by viperx2:
Oops! Wrong title!!! Should be America's shame.
Posted by packbart:
;)
Maybe Titanic II will be rendered on a farm of Playstations.
Anyway, technology should be free to all. Those who can use it will use and improve it. Those who want to restrict access to new technologies will only slow down the process of evolution.
That's no good.
Posted by viperx2:
I don't need a vacation for one thing.
Second, who says that a playstation2 will be used as a "nuclear technology?"
Other than that, I think that china can get whatever they want when it comes nuclear tecnology.
Posted by viperx2:
This is absolutly rediculous. This is America wanting to hold all the cards, again. Fear of the Red Herring should be over by now, but there are many atrocities in China. Granted, we should keep our secrets to ourselves, but a PC.... A PC is never JUST a PC is it? With overclocking methods out, and faster processors comming every month, who is to say that they won't run nuclear simulations? On the other hand, we all know that the US runs nuclear simulations everyday, to combat a possable "threat" of another country that does not have the capabilities of our "super-techno-army." I am sure that countries like Russia, using what they have, run nuclear tests as well. The problem that American's have, is pointing the finger and shouting EVIL! before looking at themselves. If I was another country, I would be worried about America's aggressive media campaign that makes people in other countries think that this is the "land of oppertunity." This is the land of "War on Drugs," "No fredom of religon," and my personal favorite, "you look weird, I don't like you." The attack on other countries, such as germany, has people confused into thinking that America is better, when they should all remember the horror of the Berlin wall. America wants to be the best, and will do anything to stop anyone else from geting absolutly ANYTHING, including a simple playstation 2, that might give them the slightest hint of a minute advantage. While we pride ourselves on the Kosovo conflict (thus names so we don't think of innocent people dying) we fail to realize that we caused more problems that we hoped to fix. This will be the same situation of failed American secrecy that will eventually lead to the downfall of the biggest group of hipocrites that I have ever had the displeasure of living with.
With that said, I would like to add that I speak on people as a whole, not individuals. As they said in MIB, one person is smart, a group is dangerous. I would also like to add that most real netcitizens are very openminded, and I don't consider them to be "real Americans." I'm sure most of them have had the same problems with American bullshit that I have had to deal with, and can understand, at least where I am comming from, if not how abrasive I am being.
China IS A THREAT, don't get me wrong. They are just as much threat as my next door neighbor that dosen't like me comming over to kill me and take my property and use my house. Is that socity? Should I show him my big screen TV, and all my electronic equipment and tell him that he can't touch them? Should I go to the stores and pay them not to sell it to him? This is idocy. It creates tension, and hate between country lines. Masses of people in China will see something directly affecting them (eg. no playstation2) and public opinion will sway, no matter how much ProAmerican shit we are pumping into their TV, oh, and don't doubt that we are. That is America's strongpoint.
ViperX2
--And so the day came, when the mighty fell, and saw that all their power wasn't worth a drop in the bucket, when the people realized what horrors they lived in.--
China isn't going to become a superpower like the US anytime soon. Why? Because the supress freedom of press and speech there, which is not going to help people become more educated. They also have way too many people, it can be helpful at times, but overall it will be a burden. Related to the no free press/speech is that many of the smart people there come to the US to go to college and then stay here because they like us better. Also their military sucks, they basically have a lot of people and some shitty old crap they bought from the USSR. It'll take a long time to revamp it, and the only way they can get better stuff is to steal it from us.
Russia? First, how are they going to pull their country out of economic ruin? Second, the only reason anyone cares about Russia is that they usd to be a superpower and still have lots of nukes. They are really just a junky broke country with corrupt and stupid leaders.
And what does "retaliates in ways that your ordinary american can even dream off" mean? Retaliates for what? All the aid we've sent them? For still letting them feel like they're a big boy country just because they have nukes and some remanants of an armed forces? And what way couldn't an ordinary American dream of? And why would they wait till their economy is OK to do this? Any military attack from Russia would mean no more Russia. And some other type of retaliation? Why don't you enlighten me.
"The American society is arrogant, poorly-educated, knows very litle about history, is very easly influenced, manipulated and brainwashed." And this is different from the people in other countries how?
Yeah my ass. Maybe Willamette. The G4 too, I bet. And I guess the K7. But Merced won't be in a machine costing $1200 any time soon. And I wonder, when were these policies introduced? Even making it 6 times what it is now will be a very temporary solution.
You can't go run any old OS on it can you
Why not, Linux has been ported to nearly everything else...
With sufficient desperation, you can cross compile your simulation, and indeed run it on a playstation.
I don't advocate helping China use the stolen secrets either. The US will have to recognize that they can and will do exactly that, and there's nothing to be done about it. So it's either try and fail hurting US business in the process, or recognize a lost cause for what it is.
Also agreed. When the other side does it, it's called stealing secrets and spying, when your own side does it, it is called intelligence gathering operations. I'm sure China is just thrilled when our spysats orbit overhead.
Stand BACK!! I've got PVM and I'm not afraid to use it!
That's not the point.
The point is that the same game console that millions of children will be vegging out in front of on Christmas morning is considered by US export law to be a risk to national security. It's hard to type that when I'm laughing so hard.
It will not work when using junkbuster; it keeps returning to the login page. And it's not about cookies, you can replace the cookie file with a subdirectory, disable junkbuster, and it still goes through. But you get the blinking ads. (I don't mind the ads; I mind the blinking and the use of my computer to keep track of which ones I've been blinked with).
Agreed, it conains a programmable microprocessor, memory, IO circuits, etc. It is a perfectly good computer. Just like a PC, a RISC workstation or even a cable modem board.
Anyway, China steeling secrets (business or millitary) are not exactly a good thing, but the US spys on about anything and everything they can get their hands on as well, so there are no "good guys" in these games. Just the lucky ones and the not so lucky ones.
You don't ever get mobile supercomputers. The computers used in space projects are old and slow simply because they've been tested to death and will never, ever (well ok, not often :)) fail. And you don't need that much CPUtime to steer a missile etc.
Exactly the oposite of what you expect from the times. I shuld check if Jamaica is on that list. I wold realy be opset if we have to bring in Playstations the way we imported 128 bit Netscape.
I.e. A few at a time, boght retail and caried as logage on comersial airlines.
--
"THINK" -: former IBM motto.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
I counted 4 comments that amount to "The playstation is made in Japan so US law doesn't apply".
The Actual article says that the CPU is made in the US."
Is there a law against reading the article before posting or do we just have a lot of morons around ?
--
"THINK" -: former IBM motto.
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
Terrorist attack- several soldiers manage to deploy suitcase nukes at most of the major airports.
:->
Suitcase nukes are 1-10kt high-yeild devices that fit into a case the size of a large Zero Haliburton briefcase. These evil things, by design can slip past a LOT of the measures we currently have in place to detect bombs (they wouldn't show up on normal bomb sweeps- and nobody's looking for an atomic bomb being flown in on an airplane!).
A 1-10kt device will make a bloody mess of most major metro areas (To put this in perspective, the two bombs dropped in WWII were only in the 50-100kt range...). To date, the Russians have made hundreds of these damned things- and some are missing.
Sleep well after reading this...
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
The USA is blocking itself from the high technology market. The market may become a playground for companies that will not have to compete with the US. This means the US will lose. This happens to countries that do not play fair.
US encryption products are a joke. Pretty soon the same could be said about US semiconductors.
What many here fail to realize is that it is not specifically the chip used in the game console that is not allowed to be exported, but the hardware based encryption/encoding/decoding used for the game data that is built into the playstation 2 which is under the export control.
This is also why certain video cards are restricted. They may contain hardware encryption/encoding/decoding routines that ths US consideres as munitions.
https://www.mav.net/teddyr/syousif/
--
Time is on my side
As far as I know the story the law applies to exports from the US to non-secure nations.
:-)
So why bother? Sony (a japanese company) will build its game-consoles somewhere else (singapure? china? taiwan?) and export them whereever they want (iraq? serbia?).
Its just like crypto-laws: Germany has free crypto-laws, so many companies move to germany when they get into crypto-stuff.
America has free weapon-laws, so many gunman move to America. Uh. Just kiddin... but the gun-industry of america seeems to be more alive than that of japan or germany
"Life is short and in most cases it ends with death." Sir Sinclair
This smells like a publicity stunt to me.
Come on, what 14 year old gamer wouldn't want the system that is too fast to be exported? This is great free advertising.
--T
_____________________ This Space for rent.
Okay, number one, if say playstations were to be illegally exported it would be from a relativally small number of exporters (very few people can export something like this in quantity). Furthermore, these illegal exporters would have to be either in the US or in an allied nation that has extradition treaties with us.
/.er knowes that anyone can put warez on a ftp site which can be DLed from China and put on a CDR. That's a hell of a lot easier than shipping machines to another country. The difference is obvious. And, if they wanted to *steal* our tech and build it themselves, they would have a problem, we control the export of machines that can fab that kind of stuff.
Two, if you want supercomputers from the US, just drop a couple hundred thou in the pockets in the Clinton administration. (btw, this has proven to have happened from the chinese army, and as a result, we have drastically increased the # of supercomps to China in the past two years and allowed them to get tons of missle tech.) It's scary how incredibly much the Clinton administration has just given the Chinese and what they will be able to do with it (MIRVs, etc.)
Three, your comparison to software is completely invalid and different from playstations. Any
Your comment is completely unfounded and unrealistic. Granted, our export policy is a little behind the times, and beowolf computers only make it easier for *enemies* to develop nukes or biotech or whatever. But there is a lot of dangerous stuff that we have to keep our eyes on.
Reid G. Ormseth, Esq.
taiwan's economy is very closely linked to china's, regardless of what the economist says. if you think about it, taiwan has a lot of "manufacturing". (you know, lots of stuff is "made in taiwan"). but taiwan is a fscking tiny-ass island. where are all their factories?
china.
hong kong does a lot of that kind of thing too. gets around tariffs, basically.
many taiwanese are *pissed* at the nationalists for trying to keep their market closed. the pragmatic ones know damn well that taiwan depends on china for just about everything- food, water, power, it all goes through china, just like with hong kong. how closed do you think the economy could possibly be?
taiwan's banking system was conservative compared to the rest of asia's, but its still pretty risky by american standards. taiwan's economy is not as protected as they like to say it is. compared to thailand, yeah, i guess they did all right.
but soros and the other speculators did rape taiwan along with thailand, south korea, philippines, malaysia, singapore, indonesia, and hong kong. (am i missing anyone?) there was more to it than just currencies- they also crucified the stock markets- but the taiwanese market was not as inflated, and hence "did better". their stocks still dropped a lot though. china's market dropped a lot too, but since they were (and are still) growing rapidly, it didnt hurt as much. china's a bit messed up right now... but i think thats more of a painful transition thing than anything else.
as for that army thing, yeah, youre right. but its still a lot of people with guns. and unlike americans, theyre less likely to let their kids check to see if theyre loaded in the classrooms.
unc_
russia is definitely screwed, and will be for a fairly long time. they are a superpower on their way down. ill agree with you on that. any way you look at it, though, they still got a lotta nukes.
did you know that russia developed "suitcase nukes"? smaller than conventional nuclear bombs, but how big a fricking nuclear bomb do you need to take out a city anyway? (not very big) they made several hundred of them- doesnt that make you sleep better at night? (theyve also LOST some of them....) so id say russia is still pretty dangerous, even when theyre spiralling down to postcommunist hell.
but china is very clearly on its way up.
some things you might wanna know about china, if youre wondering why everyone thinks theyre a threat.
china has and is still spending very very very large amounts of money to upgrade its military. their equipment sucks, and has for a while. but they have been quietly buying tech from russia and europe (and stealing from us). part of the way jiang got the military to support him was by promising to upgrade all their equipment, which he did and is still doing. china's also been building lots of factories- some of them with OUR money and expertise.
in terms of arms expenditures, china beats everyone else in asia. in fact, china has a larger military than any other country- in the world. yup. china's standing army (thats not counting reservists) is OVER ONE MILLION SOLDIERS. what happens if china can equip all of them (or even half of them) properly?
regarding education level, observe the current leader, jiang zemin. he likes to hide it, but in fact he speaks english fluently. his high school education was at an american missionary school and he studied engineering in china and in russia. hes an ee, but hes good at pretending to be ignorant.
in 1989, when he visited a university some students had put up posters quoting the gettysburg address. jiang gave an impromptu speech in which he recited the entire gettysburg address (in english) and then chastised the students for mistaking lincoln's meaning- because the civil war was fought to preserve the union, and to stifle rebels against the federal government.
the average person may not be well-educated. but anyone who can manage to stay afloat and rise to the top in a government as treacherous and corrupt as china's has to be pretty fricking smart, doncha think? and jiang's background means he has also attracted a larger number of intellectuals to china's government than ever before.
as for brain drain, there are a lot of chinese who come to the US for education. but there are also a lot of people who go back to make sh!tloads of money. and every factory opened by an american or european entrepreneur adds to china's industrial power.
china's economy is maybe the only one that didnt completely crash and burn in the last two years- can we say the same about south korea, singapore, taiwan, or even japan, the most advanced countries in asia?
so yeah, this was pretty long, but maybe you should know a little more about what youre talking about before dismissing such a large part of the fscking globe next time. specifically, the two largest countries on it.
unc_
I'm sure USA has missiles pointing at several countries. Do you know for sure they're not? And even if they're not pointing missiles at anyone (which I doubt), how long would it take them to do so.
actually, i do know for a fact that the missles are aimed into the sea right now, but it also takes seconds to re-aim them.
The US has killed its own people as well. I won't even mention slavery or the deportation of Japanese in WWII. What about Kent University. What about the (white) anti-war protesters that got shot at in the 60s. I'm not American so I won't profess to know your history, but maybe an American can enlighten us on this. How are those protesters any different than the protesters at Tianamen. You call China evil for shooting at student protesters but what about when the US shoots at their students?
ummm... you did mention slavery, et al. slavery was a horrible practice that lasted much longer than it should have. but it was a different time, different leaders, different policies. the internment of american citizens of japanese decent during the second world war was a terrible thing for the government to do to it's own people, no excuses offered. as far as kent state is concerned, did you know that some of the students attached knives to the bottoms of their boots/shoes and kicked the national guardsmen who were there to attempt to control the situation? the difference between the tianamen(sp?) square massacre and the instance(s) you cite in the u.s., is that the students were peaceful in the china situation. in america, the students attacked the police in many instances (though many were also quite peaceful). you're comparing different situations entirely.
"onward!" cried the copper man, little knowing brass corrupts...
So what's to stop anyone from running some cluster defined as a supercomputer here in the good ol' USofA and offering up cycles the the PRC's nulcear wapons program?
Have you taken a look at the specs for the PSX2? If I remember correctly, it has just over three times more floating-point power than a 500MHz PIII. That's some serious computing power for a console.
The Beowulf mailing list had a thread for a while about clustering Playstations. All that 3D rendering does indicate a sweet chip in there.
The only problem is Playstations are supposed to be largely black-box so as to deter piracy, so putting Linux and MPI on them would be difficult.
I do not believe that this has been previously noted, but the 2000 MTOPS export limit is not only a US restriction but is also part of the Wassenaar Arrangement. There is one caveat however. The provisions of the Wassenaar Arrangement are not binding. Each of the 30 something countries involved is free to establish their own national policy wrt to export restrictions. This point was previously discussed here at /. with regard to encryption.
Another person mentioned that this is not an outright export ban. Once again, under the Wassenaar and US policy, exemptions to the export restrictions can be sought and approved. I think that is an important point that should be considered. OTOH, I have had the fun of dealing with export laws wrt to sending equipment overseas so that I could conduct my own research. As I don't have bags full of money to help grease the skids, my experience can be best described by the following phrase: bend over and grab your ankles.
Finally, keep in mind that changes in US export policy changes at a glacier pace that is not commensurate with Moore's law. Changes do occur, but they are driven by the interaction of industry lobbyists and politicans. This mix is not condusive for the establishment of intelligent policy.
As a side note, the Wassenaar Arrangement previously (1996?) had an export restriction of 700 MTOPS, IIRC.
Hello people are you listening. Better still are you thinking. The US is not Banning the PSX 2. They have laws IN PLACE. That the PSX 2 happens to be powerfull enough to fall under. I repeat the US is not specifically targeting the PSX 2! The US has laws in place that states computers over a certain power are not allowed to be exported to certain countries!
"There is no spoon" - Neo, The Matrix
"SPOOOOOOOOON!" - The Tick, The Tick
Things like this are *nothing* new for our goverment (the US) to do. The fact that we now notice them and can do something about it however is. The US has done some awful and stupid things throughout the years as has any other country in the world. Countries like people do make mistakes and need to learn from them... and most of you need to learn some serious history before arguing moot points again.
F /...
---
Openstep/NeXTSTEP/Solaris/FreeBSD/Linux/ultrix/OS
--- I do not moderate.
>China isn't going to become a superpower like the US anytime soon.
;-)
:-)
They COULD be, but I doubt it too - though for different reasons. The chinese leaders are walking a tightrope right now. So far they have managed to introduce limited market economy without much personal freedom, but unrest is growing in the country. China is a mindboggingly huge country that is the oldest still living civilization, consisting of hundreds of different peoples and languages. If a civil war breaks out, it would be a tradegy on a scale not seen before. Imagine Bosnia with 1.2 billion citizens.
>Why? Because the supress freedom of press and speech there, which is not going to help people become more educated.
Well, America has freedom of press, but it doesn't seem to do a lot of good for YOUR education.
I mean, I bet 95% of Americans could tell you who Jerry Springer is, but according to a study "one in five could not name a single country in Europe, while one in four could not locate the Pacific Ocean on a map. Nearly half of those tested could not find New York State, and fourteen percent of them could not even correctly identify the United States on a blank map of the world's nations."
>It'll take a long time to revamp it, and the only way they can get better stuff is to steal it from us
That is where you are wrong. The west is currently ahead in the technological race, but the Chinese are smart and dismissing them like that would be a mistake.
>Russia? First, how are they going to pull their country out of economic ruin? Second, the only reason anyone cares about Russia is that they usd to be a superpower and still have lots of nukes. They are really just a junky broke country with corrupt and stupid leaders.
Russia is in deep shit for sure, but don't you understand that an unstable country is MORE DANGEROUS than a functioning one. Nukes have gone missing for crying out loud. Who has them now? Suicidal Hizbolla guerillas who want to give the US a little present? The Russian Mafia wanting to blackmail a nation?
If you knew a little bit about history, you would know that it was the economic ruin after WWI and German resentment over their defeat that made it possible for Hitler to rise to power. And he actually managed to rebuild the country in a few years. As you said, they have lots of nukes. Would you want Zhirinovski in control of them?
>Retaliates for what? All the aid we've sent them?
Well, I doubt YOU sent any aid. It's funny, poorer nations that need every penny they have to build their econmy have it in their hearts to spend 1-2% of their GDP on aid to the poor. How much does the rich US spend? 0.0001? Or look at the sitiation in Kosovo. Now that the fun and exitement of dropping bombs on civilians is over, the US goes home and declares that it is the job of Europe to take care of 100 000 refugees, both Kosovars and Serbs, and rebuild a country that has been bombed back to the 19th Century.
Personally, I would like to nuke the US for what you have done to the environment, but that is another matter...
>Any military attack from Russia would mean no more Russia.
...and if they used nukes, no more US, no more Europe, and nuclear winter. Wohoo.
>"The American society is arrogant, poorly-educated, knows very litle about history, is very easly influenced, manipulated and brainwashed." And this is different from the people in other countries how?
It is a matter of degree, and the stupidity and ignorance is spreading, but your country defenitely leads the pack. This is a quote from a forum on Salon Magazine that I think sums it up pretty good.
Cheers,
/Lars
******************
P Glass 11:03pm Jun 9, 1999 PDT (# 98 of 106)
WHERE IS THE PRESS?.....(It's been 'developed')
Sounds about right, catb.
But I'm getting dizzy. The media pack simply is getting dumber and less and less informative every month.
In no other country has this occurred. And they all have payrolls to meet and `need audience. But somehow they manage to attract viewers and listeners and readers by the good, not poor quality of their product.
Andrew walsh 06:29am Jun 10, 1999 PDT (# 99 of 106)
Last time I visited Niagara Falls I watched CBC at night. I was pretty amazed at the quality of the programming. Maybe it was just a good night for CBC, but I wished I lived closer to the border. More and more the US strikes me as a strangely zombified country. Lots of money, lots of irrational anger and paranoia, lots of religious cults, but it's missing something that I can't put my finger on - something akin to emotionally cool, satisfied-with-life, integrated-with-society mental health. Ken Starr, singing hymns at night as he soaks in the dirty details of Clinton's sex life, seems the perfect embodyment of this psychic illness. But no one dares to say the emperor has no clothes.
P Glass 08:38am Jun 10, 1999 PDT (# 101 of 106)
WHERE IS THE PRESS?.....(It's been 'developed')
Andrew- re CBC...
I remember with nostalgia the time in the early eighties when NPR routinely carried CBC news productions daily as part of All Things Considered and the AM news.The ONLY unbaised, investigative journalism on the ground in Nicaraugua, for example.
Canadian correspondents entered villages immediately following the massacre of citizens carrying a tape recorder. One I particularly remember was inside a village house where inhabitants had been caught and slaughtered while in the midst of preparing a meal. The correspondent was almost whispering into the mike as he went from room to room describing the fresh bloody scene.....
CBC was removed from NPR after a couple years...I wrote and telephoned protest. I think it was too sophisticated for NPR to tolerate. Their correspondents in Cuba and Central America were not helping NPR in its struggle to keep Congressional funds..
Being bitter is drinking poison and hoping someone else will die
Now think of this situation of the playstation 2, people will get it illegally, just like alot of illegal CDs coming out of China of our best software,
Our best software isn't illegal to distribute on CD. It's also not just from US programmers. *grin*
--
QDMerge -- generate documents automatically.
how to invest, a novice's guide
see what they did to Serbia? They flattened it. It's not just America either. It's NATO. There is no world power that can withstand that kind of punishment. NATO was only using one branch of the armed forces for that too. There are at least three others. No American and other NATO forces will call the shots for at least 20 more years, like it or not. Any country that attempts to challenge that proposition will find itself leveled.
Heh.. just imagine if the Chinese buy up the remaining stock of nicely overclockable Celerons then and slap 'em together to make systems that are greater than the export regulations allow.
.. come on .. I don't call a 'games console' a computer by any stretch of the word. You can't go run any old OS on it can you or can you really get a PSX title of 'Nuclear Physics Simlation' ?? .. jeez.
.. nothing you can do (or want to do IMHO) to stop it - not that I advocate helping the Chinese take advantage of stolen secrets, that's a different thing.
Seriously, the PlayStation a 'supercomputer'
One thing is of note in the article, you can't stop technology once it becomes so widely available and prolific. Processor power increases almost exponentially
Delphis
Everyone here has been misinformed. The PSX2 MAIN CPU not made in US, it is manufactured by Toshiba of Japan, and is currently in mass production stages. In fact, Sony actually funded the entire construction of Toshiba's 0.18 micron fabs just so they could make the CPU for the PSX2. (Many in the semiconductor industry felt Sony's decision to fund this a risky venture) The "US made" CPU mentioned in the NYT article was the original PSX CPU core which is embedded into the die of the bridge chip for the PSX2, designed by LSI. And as far as I was told, Sony is mearly licensing the IP core for the bridge chip so that they can manufacture it themselves. (via Toshiba agreement) Besides, the PSX2 unit will be manufactured in China so I can't see how America intends to limit its distribution.
BTW- There sure has been alot of anti-China sediment in this topic discussion. Just remember who made the computer your surfing with right now...you would not be able to afford it if not for China and Japan. And don't get cocky with the US's supposed "technological superiority". Let me tell you, there are only two technologies the US leads in, thats weapons of mass destruction and the Internet. Japan has equally and in many cases superior electronic design technology to the US. The US PC and consumer electronic industry is curenntly hitting a wall, and they know it. Japan is poised for taking over starting this next year with China and Korea as their right hand men. Look out!
-Huang Bao Lin (A white American currently living in the US)
besides, the registration is free after all
Junkbuster makes all it's block/don't block decisions from a file containing patterns to watch for. If you click on the junkbuster logo that pops up, you can see exactly which pattern it was that got caught, and remove/modify it if you like.
Vidi, Vici, Veni
This comment contains no answers.
Why is it that humans can not be content? I'm not sure if its intrinsic of governments or humans as a whole. The reason we form governments is to keep ourselves protected from invasions and losing what we have.
We have to protect ourselves because we believe the other guy is plotting to invade.
Peace agreements never work. The world can't trust itself.
America is afraid that China is going to blow us up. China is afraid that America is going to blow them up. So we each build weapons to keep the other at bay.
The American population just wants to live without fear of being blown up.
The Chinese population just wants to live without fear of being blown up.
Is it just because of governments that these conflicts occur?
Is it possible to live without governments? I don't think so, because of criminals.
It is so frustrating to try and find answers.
One problem with your theory is that the U.S. is the only place China can get it's information from; and that's a very biased view. I think you are confusing the inability of the U.S. govt. to keep *it's* secrets secret, with it's refusal to allow American companies to be competitive in the global market. Yes, they should guard their secrets better; but no, they should not control what U.S. companies can produce, especially if it's already freely available outside the U.S.
"Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin,
Then sony has trouble selling anything in the US due to putative trade restrictions.
I think they would rather forgo the current Chineese market than the current US market, especially given the weakness of the Japanese economy these days.
The US (I'm a native) is developing a most unenviable track record in the repression of technological advances by its residents.
The notion that a supercomputer (or an encryption program) is dangerous is cold war thinking. And even during the cold war, we were trading in high tech with our "enemies" in the hope that keeping them from being too far behind might make them less disposed to bomb us.
It's time to stop conducting such stupidly silly policies. Our elected representatives need to hear from us en masse in an expression of our dissatisfaction. It won't make them change, at least not quickly, but over time, they will listen, or risk not being re-elected.
When technology is outlawed, only outlaws will have technology.
--- Bill
Perhaps you missed it, but this is slashdot, not the usual forum of bickering and bitching ms/apple users. Most of us (I'm hoping) use Linux, which is essentially proving that American's aren't as bad as you believe. It has become an international stereotype that Americans are easily influence, manipulate, and badly informed. Practical experienc on foreign policy? Thats more political bullshit there. Foreign policy is basically the bitching by a foreign country against something the US is trying to influence a control over (I do not argue that the US government itself is all screwed up). The fact is, with the general public of the world, its too easy to influence them to use M$ or Apple, because people in general (non /.ers of course :)) are sucked into the media wormhole of Apple, Microsoft, and hell, even IBM has its bad sides. Nobody is perfect, even if they support linux [ask rasterman for another one]. The media participates in the brain washing. Do not be so quick to tag Americans with it, its the whole world at this point. Look at the Germans, which were easily influenced into following the Nazi powers during WW2. Governments are usually what screw things up, and the use of media is their 'force' for keeping power. Getting people all pissed off about something somebody else is doing is what the governments of todays world thrive on. Oh and I used to be a Microsoft junkie, only because they had the OS that could run Wolfenstien 3d, Doom, and later Warcraft. The Macs just didnt have the game platform for me. Now, I'm a little beyond just gaming. I've educated myself. Sure I still slightly sneer at the use of a Mac, only because complete idiots can use them, not requiring any skill or brains at all.. (dont get me wrong, even smart people use them, I just find it demeaining to have to do everything away from a command prompt.. probably why i've gone from wintendo to linux (cept when I gotta play something I cant get working with WINE). Ok I dont know where the hell I just went with all this so I'm going to run away.
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
I'm soooo sick of the knee-jerk anti-go'vt attitudes here. It's good to question authority, but a little moderation please...
Blar.
Since the CPU in the PSX2 utilizes a MIPS-core, complete with the MIPS IV-instruction set, its actually designed and owned by a company from the USA.
Anders W - Inquisitor CoJ, Champion of Lady weeanna "Why despair? We are all going to die anyway"
According to current laws, 2000 MTOPS. (Million theoretically operations).
And the 286 was able to address something like 1gb of memory. Not that anyone could afford a gig of memory back when the 286 ruled the roost.
I have heard that Linux have been ported some time ago to Nintendo 64. the port haven't been made available because of pressure from Nintendo.
Maybe this was an hoax...but maybe not. it seems to me that the N64 was using MIPS chips and Linux was working on them, so one of the harder step was already done.
"The obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers." Bill Gates,
Actualy, the 8088 supported LOTS of interrupts (I'd have to dig into my old documentation file to find out how many). It was IBM's bus and motherboard design that didn't. And its about as backwards as I care to get.
Back to the actual topic - specific claims for yet to be released products aren't that important. If they don't meet their targets on scedule somebody else will shortly afterwards. Who knows what the K[smallest number not announced] will do? It seems that any fixed limit that excludes real super computers will be exceeded by a system afordable by mere mortals before too long.
I belive the x86 has 256 interupsts... as well as 256 'exseptions' but I'm not qute sure about the exseptions...
maybe the guy was talking about registers..
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Chad Okere
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
you mean russia?
you should, beacuse they have the most...
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Chad Okere
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
rc5 dosn't exsist?
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Chad Okere
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Probably beacuse they have somthing *imporntant* to do... I doubt many people would spend hundreds of millions of dolars for somthing, and then leave it running idle...
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Chad Okere
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I'm sure the people and government of the US weren't always so enlightened and open to free speech. However, over time speech has (supposedly) become more free. Even coloured people can (supposedly) speak freely in the US now Free Speach has been at the *core* of our nation since the begining (well after the bill of rights were passed, very early on). There was no censoring of Televison, or Print media in the 1960's (as there is in china today). When the US was created, it was the *only* true democracy, since the pre-cezar days of rome. America may seem to be run by dumbasses, but they could *never* pull somthing like the Chinese. The fact is, people are jailed for there mear words. that could *never* happen here
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Chad Okere
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I belived they used a UNIVAC, or somthing similar, to help develop the first Nuke... they didn't do a simulation per se (obviously) But I belive they had it crunch some numbers for them (and to determine if it was even posible)
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Chad Okere
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
and yet its perfictly legal for women to walk around topless in NYC.... better keep a spare shirt in the car :)
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Chad Okere
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
With WebWasher, a similar filtering tool (but available only for Windows), I can read the article just fine. Anyone knows what's the difference there?
However, if we accept that the original reason for the supercomputer export restrictions is to make it difficult for some countries to solve certain problems like simulating nuclear blasts, raising the bar defeats this purpose. These problems aren't getting any harder (and don't forget that the US managed to solve these problems in the days of pencil and paper, adding machines, and the occasional vacuum tube). If all that the regulations are doing is keeping the latest generation of hardware out of China's hands for a few months until it, too, becomes embedded in something you can buy at Toys 'R Us, is there any value remaining in the restrictions at all?
We might as well give in and abandon the restrictions. In fact, putting millions of Internet-connected Pentiums into the hands of the Chinese population is probably the Chinese government's worst nightmare.
The article makes it sound like the PS2 and higher MHZ computers are outrighted banned and will never be available in China unless laws are changed. This is not true.. the author is just trying to cause a stir. Sony only has to apply for an export license, which is a very simple process. Undoubtably they will be granted export permission immediately.
-- Virtual Windows Project
I'm from Israel, one of the other countries effected by the export regulations. The reason Israel is effected by the export regulations is that our country refused to sign the treaty concerning nuclear weapons.
Now, guess who was the first client that got a Cray supercomputer, with the blessing of the US government? Right, the defense ministry. And at the same time, Israeli academic institutes couldn't even dream of getting such a computer. Now, go figure the logic behind it
It seems like those export regulations long lost their point. It is true that computing power is needed for simulation of nuclear weapons - while the A-bombs in WWII where made without a computer - a simulation can be used to create even deadlier weapons using radioactive isotops which are easier to produce. The biggest problem is the detonation. There is a need to calculate the exact position and activation time of the different detinators in the bomb to make an efficient and fast chain-reaction.
Anyway, personal computer power has reached the point where it can solve those problems several years ago, so what are they trying to prevent now?
In nuclear physics there is critical mass neaded for the chain-reaction to be possible (probable) and for the bomb to explode. Likewise, there is "critical computing power" needed to develop nuclear weapons. Once we're past that point, increase in computing power won't change anything.
>if capitalism hadn't already failed then the US wouldn't still need the Sherman Anti-Trust Act
>today. if capitalism hadn't failed then we wouldn't need labor protection laws (the workplace
>is too often still unsafe).
Okay, please, take a lesson from an economist. Market failure != failure of capitalism. Market failure can be brought about by all sorts of things, and, in general, the market has not failed in the US to protect labor or encourage competition. There are cases where the market has failed, ie software and the textile industry (one for competition, the other for labor). Market failure is when market forces fail to keep something balanced - a serious work shortage where wages somehow don't increase, that sort of thing. For capitalism to fail, you'd have to be talking about the economic system becoming completely and totally non-functional, with a dead halt to international trade, paper currency, everything but bartering, and a lack of set prices for goods. But look at grocery stores. Ain't no way that the market failed when my co-workers were making $14 an hour checking groceries, with double time overtime and sundays. You can thank labor market forces for that, thanks. Wages are tied to geography, unemployment, skills, etc, just like the market dictates. As for competition, how many grocery stores, or convenience stores, or shoe stores can you name off the top of your head. How about car manufacturers? And any industry with sufficiently low entry costs, such as software, or convenience stores, or beer brewing, you see a new company every week. Car companies don't spring up overnight due to the high cost of entry into the market (getting a design ready, then getting a plant online to build the design, then getting it okayed with governmental safety standards, and so forth. But they don't fold overnight, either. In fact, the auto industry is rather competetive. I can think of a dozen or so major manufacturers off the top of my head. That's no monopoly for any of them. Don't spout about the failure of capitalism, b/c it hasn't failed. I wont argue any of the other stuff with you, but I would like to point out that if you go to Vietnam, or if you go to Nigeria, or pick any of several other countries, you aren't going to find the same technology. If technology is the same everywhere, explain the African AIDS crisis.
itachi
I would like to pose two scenarios and ask what would happen in each case. What if our government imposed censorship on the net, and lets say 50 people which is really an unrealistic number actually broke our law, would we actually go to their country, pull them out and bring them here to be prosecuted? Now magnify that at least 900 fold, and think of this, where is the money coming from to prosecute these people? Now think of this situation of the playstation 2, people will get it illegally, just like alot of illegal CDs coming out of China of our best software, our best games. It usually seems that it is a desire that we want our technology to not get into enemy hands, but what exactly is our government doing to check that other countries that are fortunate to be able to get our technology also has some form or checking mechanism in place and that would be used on our behalf? Just a few questions, that I wanted to have answers to the next time I get into a conversation *smirks*
I don't know what life is, but no one gets out alive...N
This is getting stupid.
"If one is really a superior person, the fact is likely to leak out without too much assistance" -- John Andrew Holmes
You're correct about the chinese inventing gunpowder first. They also invented clockwork, the printing press with movable type, books, paper money, and so forth. However, I believe that 100 years after they invented the mechanical clock, they forgot all about it. In fact, they were amazed when Europeans came to them and showed them _their_ clocks. From there it went downhill, with the Chinese not really inventing anything new. Europe had caught up, and China had become less innovative. Government has just gotten more and more oppressive in China, and the majority of the people couldn't think for themselves if their lives depended on it. Granted, the government gets all those who can and it uses them to their full potential. If they were so intelligent, why didn't they come up with the missle technology first, just like they did with gunpowder? The reason is this: China is not a _major_ threat because they are still extremely third-world and have not been able to develop as fast as the US and Europe. Yes, at one time they excelled, but they grew lazy and are now extremely behind. Their economy is so poor comparatively that most of that 1+ billion people you mention could never afford an inexpensive car, let alone video game consoles and computers at the level that we can.
Has communism ever really worked? The last holdouts are China, Korea, Vietnam, and Cuba. None of those countries are in proper economic shape, and the government controls everything, not the people. The people really don't have any say in what the government does, unlike we do in the US. Granted, we don't have as much as we should have, but our democratic/capitalist system seems to function much better than their communist system. We still have most of our freedom, a healthy economy, and so on. They don't have money, health, education, or anything.
In short, next time you post, make sure you _really_ know what's going on. China is only a minor threat (even with the missles). They are poor and extremely backward. Communism will eventually fail because of the human nature to fight against oppression (Tianmen Square was such a demonstration, although a tragic one). The USSR had missles in Cuba when Kennedy was president, remember, and we were able to dissolve that problem before anything could happen.
Anything that, in happening, causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen. --Douglas Adams, _Mostly
What the hell ... you think some government is going to to Nuclear Ballastic Missiles Simulation on a PLaystation?
China has already stollen so much data from the United States, they can make (And have already made) extremly powerfull supercomputers, nuclear reactors, missiles, aircraft, etc.
Besides, how hard is it to find the parts for a supercomputer? Buy 64000 8-Way 500MHz Pentium III3's with a gig of RAM each and RAID, and 1Gb fiber optic networking hardware, and you can build a cluster with more computing power than the Intel Supercomputer, Red.
While I do think that restricting Playstations is ridiculous (a case of barn door a few years too late), the government is right to be worried about China and other countries like that gaining advanced technology. Before I go any further, I want to make it clear that when I say China, I mean the Chinese government. I have nothing against the Chinese people.
China already has over a dozen nuclear missiles pointed at the US. The technology to allow accurate guidance of these missiles was 'accidentally' leaked by Lorel. The technology to build various advanced nuclear weapons, such as neutron bombs (which kill people and leave buildings standing) have been stolen by the Chinese. China has demonstrated its willingness to use military force against its own citizens (Tienammen Square).
China appears to be headed down a new and dangerous path, combining communism with capitalism, in a mix with a high potential for growth and an even higher potential for instability.
I think it's quite likely the US will see themselves in some form of conflict with China fairly soon (i.e. next decade). It may come in the form of a limited conflict over Taiwan, or another cold war, or (hopefully not) WWIII.
Unless China's government changes to something more democratic and less oppresive, I don't see any way around it--China wants to be a superpower, and the US isn't going to just shove over and step down. There are two main ways to subvert another country's government.
A) Force--this is bad, for many reasons.
B) Destabilize, then cause a revolution from within. In this case, this might be achieved through trade, by making it obvious to the people how much better democracy is. Of course, if this doesn't work, you're left with A, and your enemy now has way better technology.
Basically, the US is stuck between a rock and a hard place. It might be worthwhile for them to work on Star Wars-like anti-ICBM technology. Otherwise, China can rattle their nuclear sabre to keep the US at bay while they go pillage Taiwan or the rest of Asia.
The only bright side I can see to all of this is that China is going to get hit especially hard by Y2K, as almost all of their government's software is pirated (making it much harder to get updates or otherwise fix). Kinda ironic...
Yes, it's all the fault of the evil american propaganda machine. Afterall, all communists are good and all those evil westerns ever do is try to make them look bad. Good gods man, get a clue.
Sure communist countries dont 'spoon feed' their population popaganda.. they shove it down their throats at gunpoint. I mean come on, look at middle-eastern countries.. they arent communist (well, socialist.. since NO country is acctually communist and hasnt been since the beginning days of the concept of communism when it was discovered that giving the entirety of a country over to a few guys with no oversight was a bad idea) but thanks to the overwhelming power of government over the people they cant even watch un-edited TV or buy un-censored magazines because they might be tainted by those evil westerners.
As to "we" and "they" being the same thing, well.. they apparently arent to you. Your whole first paragraph was bashing 'they' [westerners] for being so horrible and biased. So we're all on a little orbiting rock on the outer arm of a typical galaxy off in a lonely corner of a big uncaring universe.. So What? Is there anything anybody can do about it? Not without some serious advances in more sciences than you can shake a stick at. So until someone drops FTL into our laps, our universe remains what's on this little rock.
US export restrictions have a great deal to do with national sercurity. Yes they're outdated, but when they were put into place computers capable of doing 2000 tops were the size of a typical office building and were pretty much cornered the market on icbm targetting calculations. Now most countries could build one just by importing smaller computers, and apparently now the playstation 2, something you could carry inside a briefcase, can do it. I agree that the US should probably give up trying to hold back the info, but not because it's pointless.
Just imagine what would happen if tomorrow the US and all the european countries said to china "Hi, we want to be nice to you guys now, so you can come in and take any technology you want." At first it might sound like a great idea.. but think about it. Certain technologies would advance enormously while other ones that Seem less important flounder. Chinese car companies would spring into existence, but would chinese oil refiners, which would bring much less obvious and immediate change, spring into existence? Dont count on it. It's like putting a kid in a store and saying you can have what you want. They grab all the toys they've been drooling over but dont bother with the stuff they Need. Maybe every chinese home would have a computer, but they would still be impoverished and undernourished because you cant build a country-wide nutrition system overnight. Not to mention not having the knowledge to Maintain their new toys. Every time something breaks down china would have to call in someone from the US to fix it for decades until their educational system was up to par to teach their people how to do it themselves. That, on top of having to import the essentials needed to Run the new technology would drive china's economy even Futher into the ground. For decades technologically advanced countries have been trying to catch up the third world countries of the world so that they CAN share technologies. The US gives out enormous amounts of money to asian and african third-world countries every year to help them build things like sewer systems.
As for capitalism failing.. yes, it will eventually fail. Not because it's inheritly bad, but because of technology. Things become cheaper and cheaper to produce. A few more steps down the path of technological advancement and necessities like food and clothing will be so cheap as not to matter anymore. When THAT happens, traditional capitalism will fail. What will evolve from the situation? Not communism, that's for sure. It'll probably be a quasi-barter system based around the exchange of propriety data. But all that is in the future. Capitalism hasn't failed yet like you seem to think. Most of the world works off of capitalism, even socialist countries are, as a whole, capitalistic. How so? Simple, the Country (not the people in it, the country as a whole entity) buys and sells on capitalistic principles with other countries. Why? Because capitalism works. Why do we have things like labor protection laws if it works? Because people are greedy. If someone can save a buck at the cost of somebody else, they'll go for it. Greed is what drove communism into the ground in the first place. Labor protection serves to keep greed from going too far. As for unsafe conditions, you're telling me eastern countries are better off? Pull the other one. There's a reason why american compaines try to get away with opening overseas branches.. they can hire eastern workers at 12 cents a day and have them mold plastic in unventhilated factories 100 hours a week and the resident government thanks them for providing jobs and more income for the government.
America's not perfect. Europe's not perfect. But neither is asia.. not by a longshot. China's not a major threat now and wont be for a long time because they're too backward. Whatever the reason for it, they ARENT up to par with the rest of the world. They're the equivalent of a little kid with a gun. Dangerous to others, dangerous to themselves, but only because they have the gun. Take away china's nukes and it's back to "that place with too many people and not enough money".
Dreamweaver
"If a man hasn't discovered something he will die for, he isn't fit to live" -- MLK, Jr.
I've always wanted a Playstation 2, now knowing it is called a 'supercomputer' makes me want it more. I haven't read the article, and what I want to know is what exactly a system needs to be a supercomputer..
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
bottom line: china will have playstation 2 if they want it... so why argue about this obviously dumb law, hell there are dumber ones than this is some states. did you know its illegal to drive without a shirt on in NY state? even if you are of male gender. now isnt that just idiotic. i guess equality has finally gone too far.
> ERROR: IEXPLORE caused an invalid page fault in module MSCONV97.DLL at 0137:01212d19. Stack dumped:
>This was a strategic move on the part of the >United States because we are one of the only >superpowers with enough technological skills to >simulate nuclear tests without exploding actual >bombs. By getting other nations to agree to this >treaty, it gives us a strategic advantage.
Errr... the Frogs are quite adept at this too - hence them doing a little last minute testing in the South Pacific a while back, to make sure their simulators were acurrate.
Of course the US is self-interested, find me one state that isn't. However, it is nowhere near the benighted, malevolent nation you'd love to believe. Waco was stupid (christ, I could have caught that hick Koresh myself using just a pair of handcuffs and a club by just waiting until he came into town again), but sometimes the government does stupid things. That hardly erases all of the good the US has done for the rest of the world. Oh wait, I suppose you think Axis victory in World War 2 as the resultant aftermath would have made the world a better place? Lol! What a maroon!
Sorry, but despite whatever bizarre notions you may hold dear in that pretty little head of yours, the US has done a lot for the world. Lemme see here, 150 ships filled to the brim with free food and fuel arriving PER DAY to European ports in 1948-49 as the Marshall Plan took effect. Rather than razing Japan and Germany into the ground and making them into agricultural backwaters, we built them up and helped transform them into important democratic states which have contributed to world order. Huge quantities of aid to the state of Israel, which could not have survived in the absence of American largesse. Formidable transfers of medical and agricultural technology to the 3rd world. The latest incidents in the Balkans, wherein US power saved countless lives both Bosnian and Kosovar (sure, we should have gone in earlier, but at least we did something, damnit, when no one else could/would). I could go on for days.
Of course mistakes were made. Various agencies, from the CIA and NSA, to the Dept of Defense and State, have made several bad decisions. That's what happens when agencies and governments are run by PEOPLE, bub. It's happened everywhere. I suggest YOU read a bit of history, and find me JUST ONE hegemon in the course of the entire recorded history of this planet which has acted with greater responsibility and was more fundamentally enlightened than the United States. Jesus, you're taking about a state which is more powerful vis-a-vis any of its peers than any other since Rome almost two thousand years ago. If America wanted to be an empire, it would have been one long ago, and you'd be cleaning my toilet. So pull your head out the sand/your ass and think before you speak.
To make this on-topic: yes, of course China should be considered a potential adversary. This does not mean, however, that we should not seek to engage them, for the US-China relationship will almost certainly be the most important in the world in the 21st century. There will undoubtedly be friction, for these countries obviously want different things in East Asia. But this furor over the spying and technology exports has become a little absurd as of late. The Chinese military is some 30 years behind the Americans, and they are totally unequipped to project power abroad. I'd be willing to wager the PLA still hasn't recovered from the absolute beating it took at the hands of the Vietnamese in 1979, so there is little cause to think the Chinese can muster the huge logistical resources necessary to invade a well-defended off-shore island like Taiwan.
In any event, Sony Playstation 2 will never help them in any such endeavor, unless they plan on sending 20 million PSX2s to Formosa with a bunch of copies of Hentai strip mahjongg games so the Taiwanese become so distracted that Bejing can send in a fishing boat and seize de-facto control of the government. Such a Keystone Cops scenario is every bit as believable as the notion that PSX2 will help Beijing menace the world. Just like when WebTV was classified as weapons-grade technology a few years back and restricted from export. Sigh. Too many technophobes on the Hill these days, I guess, but what do you expect with people Strom Thurmond, who's older than the abacus.
Yeah. It was up at some point.
:). It can potentially makes things fast enough to reach the status of a supercomputer (as defined by US government sometimes in the 80's i guess).
The thing was about AltiVec (the vector unit that is featured in the G4 PPC from Motorola - official name is 7500 I think).
The thing was that since the vector unit can do 16 instructions in one cycle (that's 8-bit instructions BTW
Can't wait to meet it =)
The Point:
The USA doesn't really do that much of hardware and software that they could really restrict anyones access to anything. They only block themselves out of the market. But that's only good for us
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It has to work - rfc1925
So what if China has a standing army of 1 million soldiers? They have a population of 1.5 billion, if they had the same proportion of army as the United States did (and I'm not counting air force, navy, etc.), they'd have about 3 times that many soldiers. No need for the caps.
Also, about the economy, taiwan's economy was not hurt nearly as bad as anyone else's, mainly because taiwan has sensible banking policies, unlike most other asian countries. China's economy didn't crash because it has a protected currency, as well as the fact that its economy is rather closed.
There was an issue of the Economist back in November that talked about how Taiwan has been so paranoid (justifiably so) of problems with Mainland China that it has protected it's economy pretty strongly. Taiwan has spent it's entire existance preparing for an invasion by a country many times its size, so a little currency problems in thailand weren't going to faze it.
All it will take is for Sony to make a small subsidary in europe, ship the PSX2's to europe then off to china. Besides who honestly thinks that countries like france wouldn't sell that kind of stuff to the chinese.
---Got Coffee?---
I was just wondering, how often do the US update the definition of a supercomputer?
I it hasen't been updated since say 1975 a lot of calculators could be considered a supercomputer....
2) There will be no "anti-US" backlash, as
hilariously threatened above by several posters,
because the US is the world's largest *consuming*
economy and anyone who refuses to sell to the US is shooting themselves in the foot.
3) Chinese nuclear research will continue regardless of PSX2 availability. Should Comrade Gore become President, they'll be able to buy anything they want from us. If not, the Chinese will simply figure out another way to do it.
4) You don't need a computer to build a bomb. Nor do you need one to test it, assuming proper underground facilities and a cowardly international community.
5) Accepting the above, we can close out this thread...
Carefree highway, let me slip away on you.
When the most powerful computer in the world runs on commodity Pentium processors, available under no export restrictions whatsoever.
Sure, it has over 9000 of them, but neither the chips themselves, nor the technology to make interconnects of the required speeds, nor the algorithms to make large-scale distributed applications are under any controls whatsoever.
It makes no sense to make it illegal to buy a Cray mainframe when you can build a computer with similar power from parts that any major PC manufacturer will ship to you no questions asked.
Sure, ASCI Red has lots of custom hardware, but i seriously doubt that the Chinese, Soviets, Indians or any other reasonably developed country in the world are incapable of building or sourcing this type of hardware.
Sure, it's cheaper to buy a pre-built system from a US manufacturer, but if China wants to simulate nuclear explosions, then they'll do it. And theres not much the US Government can do to stop them.
I don't see the problem, they seem to think it's alright to have nukes sitting round in their own back yard, but no-one else gets to play?
Making the PSX-2 illegal to export is just plain ridiculous, if theres sufficient demand in the market, illegal (according to US law) clones will simply be manufactured in Taiwan or Korea for the Chinese market.
Copyright and Patent law? Look at the situation with software in Asia.
Why try and put export controls on technology that is inherently uncontrollable?
I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
Let us not forget that Japanese export laws are currently preventing fully functional dev kits from getting into the hands of US developers... At least according to Sony.
Give me a break! If you think for one moment the people on this side of the ocean are more intelligent than anyone else, you are gravely mistaken. In fact, the people in the United States tend to be the DUMBEST - why else do you think that all these huge corproations hire foreign help? It's because their cheaper, plus they're a hell of a lot more educated. The education system is the United Fucking States is a joke - anyone who thinks otherwise, is as big as moron as the rest of them.
By the way - it's DEMOCRACY and CAPITALISM that are bad - NOT COMMUNISM. Communism is the most perfect form of government in existance - the only problem is the people have to be PERFECT, as well - in order for Communism to work. Until Nanotechnology becomes a reality, I do not see this happening.