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Amiga Technology Brief
Mulengro writes "Amiga has finally released the long awaited Technology Brief describing what they consider to be the way forward for Amiga. Sad fact is, there's possibly nothing really new there. " New or not, it still looks
like quite a force, at least in terms of multimedia (DVD, USB, peripherals galore). They say they have
chosen a CPU, but cannot talk about it.
I think the big deal is what the Amiga MCC won't have -- the ancient PC/AT architecture
How is that a big deal? Macs don't have that, either. So are you going to run out and get a Mac now because of that?
>Look I have used Java, it is slow, anybody who says other wise is utterly clueless.
That means the Java *implementations* you have used are slow. It says nothing about the language itself.
Learn the difference, it's important.
(Note that I program almost exclusively in C++, I just hate inaccurate statements.)
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
If you are lucky, you might see an Amiga window manager for Linux and an application interface for Workbench apps on Linux.
The rest is, in my opinion, hype, lies and vapor. Consider all the problems several efforts are having with reliable Java implementations for Linux, the long struggles ahead for Kde and Gnome, etc. in implementing CORBA or even deciding on which CORBA specification to use.
These things do not happen overnight. Such a wonderfully portable system (especially one largely based on Java and which sits on top of X) is a dream, at best. This project is much more ambitious than what Kde and Gnome are attempting.
How can anyone be naive enought to take any of this at face value. It just goes to show the tremendous innocence and optimism inspired by the Amiga, which is still alive among many good Amiga loyalists. It is a shame that such good feelings are being exploited by a company which has purchased Amiga's copyrights and patents.
But don't even expect an Amiga window manager or gui toolkit. Amiga will keep playing the Linux community in an effort to attract investors and perhaps more funding internally from Gateway. That is the real motivation in these press releases - not to really interest the developers in the work.
If Amiga were to release anything within the next year I would be very surprised. So long as they are funded by Gateway the Amiga group will continue throwing out bait to keep the illusion alive - then, when Gateway finally wises up, they will close down the shop.
I wish that were not the case, but for years now I have seen nothing from Amiga to indicate otherwise.
Well, I was completely down on the Amiga idea until today. Never owned one, never cared (I used video toaster once though, but didn't get very far). But the tech brief is very interesting. For a decade, Intel, MS, and computer manufacturers have been tuning the OS and hardware to go together. So finally we'll get hardware that's tuned for linux and Java. Plus DVD, multimedia, and USB improvements that can be added to the kernel. HOPEFULLY their X-server will be free too, but it's too early to tell (X could use a few more folks working on hardware-accelerated OpenGL).
It's especially nice to hear that they're emphasizing developer tools. Anything we can do to speed up those ports and to finally get a platform that performs well with swing. Ok, so the chance is one in a thousand, but if a platorm actually came out that made Swing seem as fast as native graphics, I would buy it in a second.
--JZ
Actually, the latest VMs from IBM and Symantic have been kicking the tar out of Microsoft's (mind you, they aren't pluggable into web browsers...yet...depedning on how Mozilla's Open Java interface works).
If you want a good example of an application that runs just fine, take a look at Freebuilder, an open source Java IDE. I haven't noticed any speed problems, even on my puny P200.
Interestingly the article says very little about what architecture the processor is going to be using. Considering what has been said before, and what processors the OS 3.5 works on, I would not be surprised if it will be a PPC chip - though would be an IBM or a Motorola?. Speed and speed comparisons aside, one advantage of taking the PPC chip is that it would allow Amiga to make use of the 68000 emulation code that has already been written for the PPC and thus reduce the amount of code rewriting, at least in the beginning.
;-)
One reason that I wouldn't mind the PPC, or any other non-x86 compatible, chip being used is because it would mean that there would be another computer company making PCs that don't us Intel processors. It would also mean that we wouldn't need to buy PPC machines from Apple for LinuxPPC
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
its probably just buzzword-slinging.
You get a cheep computer who runs linux and got fully supported cool hardware. Even if you hate the amigas think about what they'll give linux- good usb support DVD support more accelerated X and possibly even firewire support.
Please explain. Why would anyone need a shovel for sofware ? Pile it high and deep or something?
You forgot that the new Amigas will have a brand new, faster-than-the-fastest-Alpha, super-secret high performance chip made by Transmeta, who will license their uber-chip exclusively to Amiga.
But this is not an Amiga, it is Linux with stuff added on. They are using X, which takes up 20 MB right there! then you have the OS, the Java VM, etc. How do they think they can fit this into 32 MB. I would not run a multimedia linux system (is that an oxymorn?!) without atleast 128MB. Besides RAM is cheap spend the extra 45 bucks and put a decent amount in.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
You forgot that the new Amigas will have a brand new, faster-than-the-fastest-Alpha, super-secret high performance chip made by Transmeta, who will license their uber-chip exclusively to Amiga for $30 bucks a pop.
Yeah why use X windows? It's the slowest part of the system. And how is this system going to be cheap with TV in/out, DVD, and this other expense multimedia?
*A*miga *T*echnologies *I*ncorporated - just a guess. I say this because they don't mention any other hardware partners except this "ATI" - I'm assuming that therefore the "ATI" is Amiga, themselves. Why would that just casusally refer to ATI as the graphics chipset vendor without some kind of "Official" announcement naming them as a hardware partner?
I thought the same. Reading between the lines, it seems as though they plan to solder 32 MB on the motherboard, and one or two DIMM sockets for expansion. Hopefully two. 128 MB seems like a more reasonable amount of RAM for a base system, but Amigas have always come out of the box memory starved -- the 1000 had 256K (+256K expansion) back when most PCs had 640K.
TedC
Aren't we glad that Sony is located outside the US.
You can do pre-emptive multitasking on an XT by hooking into the timer interrupt. Maybe allocate memory to programs in terms of segments, and change all instructions writing to the first segment (holds interrupt descriptor), or turning interrupts off to traps.
BeOS != hardware The amiga will consist of cool hardware with 100% linux support which is reason enough to buy one Amiga will be giving linux and many other free projects better hardware support, fixes and other cool stuff and you compare them to BE??? But lets say they are like be... Wouldn't BeOS be better if huge parts of it was GPL'd ?, supported all linux binaries and ran an accellerated X window system?
The thing does not clock 5 times faster, it is 5 times faster. Remember an Alpha clocks slower than a PII but is 3 times faster in FP. Same principle Sonys "emotion engine" is a 300MHz chip that has a vector engine and can do 5 times as many fp calculations per second as a PII.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
The unifying concept would seem to be shovelware, on the cheap. I don't see that as good for the old Amiga lags, or the Linux camp.
Of course, it goes without saying that I'd rather be proved wrong...
yup. It uses some the Vice President's newly invented "al-gore-ithms"... hehe
From what I've seen so far no one considered this:
:(
Is the Transmeta chip as good at emilation as suggested?
Will Transmeta be able to keep up with the demand?
Will Transmeta be able to offer apropiate clock frequencies?
Is the performance of the Transmeta CPU relative to frequency comparable to other CPU's in the market?
Why do they allways make non disclosure agreements?
You do realize that what Amiga claims to be doing has been done before. *cough* OpenStep *cough*
Oddly, this is one of the points I raised on csa misc.
:)
Despite the fact that the "tech" document was mostly PHB hyperbole, it did mention in passing that the Workbench WM was to be open src. This implies that someone has realised the ramifications of the GPL, and is ready to comply with it.
Let's hope so. If there has to be a big, acrimonious and public test case, I would rather (being biased and all) that it was at the cost of someone like Microsoft...
Anyway, I hope I'm not imagining it- go have a look, and see if you can verify my half-baked meanderings
A Sun 1 or 2?
Look I have used Java, it is slow, anybody who says other wise is utterly clueless. Seriously, a lot of things these days are compute bound. If they weren't there would be no reason to upgrade to a PIII. Even with dedicated 3D hardware there is a huge CPU toll (transform, lighting, for 3D apps final rendering is always done in software, AI, physics.) The only VM worth a damn is the IE one and only if you write windows java. And java is not THAT easy to debug. If you are writing a Java app half the time it is for winodws anyway. Why not just use Visual C++ and MFC. It generates the damn program for you! And C++ is not that hard to debug. Plus Java does not run in Windows 3.1, Lynx, BeOS, DOS, etc.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
That's the only company out there where Linux would give the Amiga a real edge for their CPU as regards Java applications, and whatnot. If we could run that at near-native speeds, life would be good.
;)
:)
Assuming Transmeta really is making a CPU, of course.
(Of course, we're basically re-inventing LISP machines, but as long as it's cheap and fast, we're doing better, right?
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
None, AFAIK. The 1985 Mac and Atari ST also used the 68000, and although the 1985 IBM AT had an MMU, DOS didn't use it. I guess a PC running OS/2 in 1987 (1988?) must have been the first one. Or maybe a PC running a commercial UNIX?
It could be that when Amiga users talked about "real" multitasking, they meant it was preemptive instead of cooperative. Was it preemptive? I don't know, but I assume the frequent "guru meditations" where caused by illegal memory accesses that the OS couldn't handle without an MMU.
TedC
Dude, five'll get you ten that the sooper-seekret chip is Transmeta's. Amiga's trying to perpetrate a major geek coup by using both Linux *AND* Transmeta's CPU. The real question is, will any of us bite? Will we care? What do you think?
-- adr
We have a leader? Hmm... that's funny, I thought Linus was just in charge of the kernel (don't get me wrong, I admire what he's done). Do you actually believe that Linux relies on just one person to keep it going? You still don't get it, do you? Go ahead, keep on trolling. The sheer desperation of your FUD is encouraging. :)
PC's could not "reach" those levels of multitasking because there wasn't any operating systems that supported it. With the "New Deal Office" platform, 286's and earlier can be made to multi-task quite well. I'm the ELKS project will also result in extremely effective multitasking in a similarily hindrered environment (no memory protection, no virtual memory). There was never any limiting factors in the PC architecture that made multitasking impossible. The true Amiga advantages were nice clean assembly language, effective use of co-processors to offload work from the cpu, etc.
If you think he doesn't get it, explain it. Don't just comment on his ignorance without doing something to help it (pointing at a reference, at least).
-AC
Our IBM Netfinity (PC server) systems run 2GB ram, 2GB swap on Linux 2.2.x.
'Nuff said. No hassle installs, no hassle
GUI, and all the power of Linux and then some.
For those that used Amigas before, you know exactly what i'm talking about. Truely a hackers
computer.
Always and will be forever.
Hey, amazingly enough, the laws of physics find it hard to believe too! :) 2.5GHz is a little tough to do with standard technology.
Also, please keep in mind that the Linux community doesn't have the same resources as the BeOS developement team. How many of us have access to SMP systems
agree, linux kernel developper are not paid and kernel is bigger to maintain. However an Abit BP6 and two celeron 400 is now cheap! w2k should support SMP also... ok i know there can be ten millions of flame against M$, but if you want to use your latest hardware fully, you have only one choice: windows... for games also...
--
http://www.beroute.tzo.com
"Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
...Again. 8)
nondisclosed != nonexistant
The new PSX processor(s)' advantage is a large number of floating-point units together with extremely wide IO/memory busses. Its integer performance on the other hand should be about on-par with a 486/66DX.
Anyone think that message passing would be effecient on platform with dynamic code recompilation in hardware? Heck, maybe you could even run mach on the transmeta chip and have it not be dog-slow. Then again, why use such hardware towards a system without the graphics system to push the awesome floating point, right?
>The ISSCC paper states that it is a "two->instruction super-scalar microprocessor core". >Except of the fact that is a 128 bit cpu it >probably wont beat a p2/300 when it comes to >general data processing performance.
The p2 *is* a "two-instruction super-scalar microprocessor".
add a CPU to linux and you have what? 20% increase? add one to NT and you have 40%, add one to BeOS and you have 90% :o)
by the way NTO is Neutrino, if one day you can have a demo of it, you'll throw away your 4Gb of linux HD, 32Mb is enough to fully install NTO and his GUI and compiler and whatever you want. Also Photon (their GUI) is very clean, v2 will be better also. Develophing with PhAB (Photon Apbuilder) is very easy, and faster than X/Motif.
as a personnal notice i don't like OO programming, C++ sucks and i call it C--, it's just a layer of standard C, not long ago, C++ program was translated in C program before being compiled to asm. However i like Eiffel, it's a TRUE OO language.
--
http://www.beroute.tzo.com
"Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
This whole design lacks coherency. It has Java, AmigaObjects, the Linux Kernel, X Windows, Workbench, ...
Where is the unifying concept?
Lee (an ex Amiga PD author)
I think the big deal is what the Amiga MCC won't have -- the ancient PC/AT architecture.
No more IRQ2->IRQ9 cascade, shared interrupts, or a ROM chip full of obsolete BIOS routines. Sounds like they're using an off-the-shelf ATI graphics chip, so I guess CGA/EGA/VGA emulation will still be around, tho.
It looks to me that they plan to cherry pick the best features from available hardware, the same way Linux has done with software. The end result could be better than the sum of the parts, if they make the right design decisions.
TedC
At the lowest level (managing the bits on the screen), we are using the latest Linux X Windows window system.
Just add the Amiga Workbench to Linux and voila, you have an Amiga ??!?
well, with Neutrino this should have rocks, but now it'll be just another linux distro with some enhancements, SMP sucks, threads sucks also... :o)
and what about java? it's the most shitty language i have ever seen, slow like hell! and why use java when C exists for years and IS the language for whatever you want to program...
it seems QNX will continue their way for a new OS based on NTO, wait and see...
C rulez, unix rulez (oh, BeOS rulez also
--
http://www.beroute.tzo.com
"Science will win because it works." - Stephen Hawking
I think you're missing the point.
Most consumer PC motherboards have 3-4 DIMMs. With 256 megs on a DIMM, that makes a maximum of 1 GB of RAM. The exact same number as the Amiga. Sure, servers can have more memory, they have more DIMMs! The poster you were replying to was saying that it's a motherboard limitation, and I agree. There's no reason you couldn't make an Amiga motherboard with more DIMMS, but it's not a server. There's no reason to. How many people have more than a GB of RAM in their PCs at home? Sheesh.
I am not an idiot. Please use my name to email me.
"That's right, I'm quoting myself."
-Upsilon
If Be opened up BeOS tomorrow I would switch in an instant. Unfortunately they still seem keen on the idea that a proprietary operating system can defeat an OSS operating system, which I totally disagree with.
Linux may not be the most technologically advanced platform right now, but it is far and away the most useable. I used to use OS/2 and before that I witnessed first hand the downfall of Commodore. I refuse to be a pawn of a company like IBM or Commodore.
Toshiba makes 'em in the US.
They can call it an Amiga because it's as far beyond any computer today as the Amiga 1000 was over the computers of 1985 when it was released. You are missing the point COMPLETELY. The fact that it ISN'T anything like the old Amiga (Or any other computer) is the whole point! How can you make something better if you are trying to stay like to old crap?
SHED THE SKIN... that's the idea...
Later,
Jack C. Thompson
Aka Scotsman / Godzilla
Actually - the HP V class servers aren't really boxes - they're more like refrigerators :)
We have one at my job that's about eight feet tall and four feet on a side. The breeze from its fans is enough to make walking difficult.
I became a Linux convert the day that NT crashed five times on me.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
- Evelyn Beatrice Hall
If the underlying operating system is as irrelevant as they seem to imply that it is, I'm not sure we should be looking for significant kernel modifications any time soon. I think they went with Linux as opposed to QNX or BeOS for three reasons, all of which boil down to "free" as in "free beer":
I'm interested in seeing what happens, although obviously I'm a bit jaundiced (well-funded or not, this is an awful lot for a company that was less than a dozen people at the start of this year to deliver on this fast--a lot of this strategy apparently doesn't go back much further than Jim Collas' involvement).
But you're right: if nothing else, we'll end up with another desktop manager with unique features that aren't compatible with Gnome and KDE. To hell with those "closed" desktop environments--why should we make it so application programmers have any reasonable expectation of what services the GUI they're running on can deliver? :-)
No, Win16 is also protected, but the first 64k is not!
This systems seems to have as much in common with an old Amiga than any other computer system that is out now. I am not saying this is not cool technology but I just think that anyone who thinks this is any type of resurrection of "Amiga" as we know it is kidding themselves.
---HAM CALL -- KB7EXY---
That sounds like a good argument that they can easily do what they are claiming. Maybe the point is that it's a good media machine at a reasonable price that you don't need to be an expert to put together?
I never doubted that they couldn't do it. I just question why? You slap that kind of hardware on any Linux based machine and your going get a kick ass media machine. Provided you have the right drivers.
If the machine is put together right you don't need to be a expert at anything. That includes Linux. So if you have a person, all she wants to do is browse the web and check email, Linux is just as good as Win95. A properly set up Linux box with KDE on it will do the job just fine.
I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
Hard to do, and if you thought that old Alpha ran warm, 2.5GHz should not only keep your coffee warm, you can probably bake a potato inside the case. :P
Apple could make an ATX motherboard with a Power PC on it, and I could throw it into my Dell case no problem.
Apple does make ATX motherboards. The Minitowers and Desktops have used ATX motherboards since at least the Platinum G3's, possibly earlier.
But as I recall the RAM my old 500 had was way more than enough to run even the hottest games. I hope they keep up the good kernel work.
LOAD "SIG",8,1
LOADING...
READY.
RUN
WTF? ATI? And I quote:
...Graphics Subsystem: Advanced SuperScalar rendering 2D & 3D hardware accelerator unannounced next-generation ATI chipset - specs still under non-disclosure)
For example Amiga is working with ATI to incorporate next-generation 3D rendering technology into the MCC (see the Hardware Architecture section).
Am I the only person annoyed by this? The Amiga is going to feature graphics technology from a mediocre industry also-ran.
Not only that, but because of my ongoing refusal to purchase ATI products (based on their extremely poor quality and performance), does this mean I should abstain from supporting the forthcoming Amiga?
This is truly a shame, something that sends me away shaking my head in bafflement.
Yes, Amiga users sees preemptive multitasking as the only 'real' multitasking ^_^
Alas, you're right also about the 'Guru meditation'; the Amiga OS isn't protected
and a task/process gone wild could overwrite other tasks space...
The OS itself was very buggy until 1.3 / 2.0, the last OS releases and
improved applications limited very much the "Gurus", but the chance remained.
Anyway, in 1984 it was very impressive (because it was *fast*).
As I understand it (could be wrong :))
Amiga is pre-emptive multitasking (in 1985)
PC is AT BEST round-robin multitasking
This is due to the evolutionary Amiga architecture and integrated
chipset - Agnus, Paula...... one for sound, one for gfx one cpu blah
blah all multitasking together
Alan Day - Dumfries & Galloway, Scotland, UK
I never did understand the Amiga "true multitasking" mantra that was so often repeated at users groups and in the Amiga press. The Amiga 1000/500/2000 used a MC68000 CPU without a memory management unit, so they were sort of multitasking with their pants down anyway. Maybe this is the "true" way to multitask; I don't know. :-)
TedC
It is going to use Java, the Linux kernel and the X Window system. How is that "from the ground up"?
Everyone around here always calls stuff that isn't out yet Vaporware. And in the light that Transmeta is being all hoodaa secretive about what they're developing, I think it should be considered vaporware (espcially with all the rumours around).
Why is it that there's a silence in the room when someone mentions Transmeta.
>And, by the way, you don't really want to use your TV as a computer
monitor -- that really sucks
That's just because *YOUR* TV SUCKS!
Picture it running on a new 60" HDTV Flat Screen Plasma Display!
The new Amiga will not be using any '15 year old Amiga stuff' except for the name "Amiga"
I can't see a big advantage over a Mac-Bbased solution.
I do: it's not owned by Apple.
It is going to use Java, the Linux kernel and the X Window system. How is that "from the ground up"?
A new platform will not go anywhere without lots of applications. If you bet on Linux, you're betting that you'll get lots of applications (OSS/commercial) now and much more in near future.
Well, I had an A500, and an A4000 back in
1988 thru 95. I learnt a lot about computing and
hardware then that wasn't even covered in
the college courses I took.
But, the sad fact is that since '93-'94,
wish lists for 'next-generation' amigas
have always existed, and I consider this
announcement to be nothing more than that.
Hardware specs are all very nice, but to
be successul, it will have to compete with
next-generation Sega's and Nintendo's,
and ultra-low-priced PC's.
And, if they pick anything other than Intel
for the CPU, the software and driver support available for their platform is going to be miniscule. Sad fact of life, unfortunately.
Yep, and it still ran a multi-tasking GUI that booted off of a floppy disk.
When MS finally put out Win95 I was fond of saying, "Gee, it's nice of them to finally put out some '80s tech."
I'll trust them where memory is concerned as long as it can take standard chips as expansion.
Edu. sig-line: Choose rhymes with lose. Chose rhymes with goes. Loose rhymes with goose.
Comparing? THEN use THAN.
Windows 9x has protected memory
so does windows 3.1
It's the drivers that cras 9x boxes (and NT boxes, running in kernel space)
_
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Actually SGI has had X on their machines for years and they're the only ones who do kick ass multimedia...not your useless PCs with an OS that gets bogged down with 1 multimedia stream or crashes every 10 seconds (doze9x what else?). X *can* and *does* do kick ass multimedia.
CPUReview recently benchmarked 2.2.10 on a system with one and two processors and found the later to be 83% faster than the former.
I am sure BeOS scales better (~90%), but Linux has gone a long way too, and we expect the improved 2.4.x by the end of the year.
Also, please keep in mind that the Linux community doesn't have the same resources as the BeOS developement team. How many of us have access to SMP systems?
BeOS WAS the new AmigaOS
Most of the employees ARE Amigans
Dave Haynie designed the original Amiga
Alan Day - Dumfries & Galloway, Scotland, UK
Pointers and templates aren't confusing or bad; they're both powerful features if you know how to use them. It's very difficult (nearly impossible) to implement a generic programming language without them -- this alone makes the indispensible.
TedC
PS. You forgot to trash overloaded operators. ;-)
Except of the fact that is a 128 bit cpu it probably wont beat a p2/300 when it comes to general data processing performance.
perfict for ipv6!!!
actulaly, I'd think a 128bit CPU would have a *huge* performance increase over a 32bit one
_
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
The 7 USB ports are probably to replace:
1) Keyboard
2) Mouse
3) Parallel
4) Serial (1)
5) Serial (2)
6) Joystick (1)
7) Joystick (2)
Yeah, I know a hub could add the extra functionality, but it's probably for perception value more than practical use.
What I found interesting was that the brief seemed to separate the graphics processing from the audio/video processing, possibly implying an additional chip (possibly a Media Processor) that is responsible for those operations. One such chip could be the VM Labs Nuon processor, which would appear to have the power to perform MPEG2 encoding, and is already claimed to do decoding for DVD and Dolby Digital.
Pure speculation you understand, but with 1500mips processing power it would be a nice addition. Check out www.nuon-tech.com for more information.
Modeline "1280x400" 82 1280 1328 1512 1612 400 401 404 445 -HSync +VSync
Have fun
Since when was Amiga DOA
10million Amiga sold by commodore does not sound like DOA to me
1985...by my reckoning that is 14 years (ha ha very long death mate)
Alan Day - Dumfries & Galloway, Scotland, UK
I imagine you use Windows? And you call Linux users Lemmings? The irony...
Tee new Operating Environment IS open source (with linux kernel) with
a CPU that is DESIGNED to run the Linux kernel & Java & Amiga classic
software (Transmeta - Linus Torvald works for them AND has been
speaking alot about Amiga recently)
Alan Day - Dumfries & Galloway, Scotland, UK
I was kinda worried that the new Amiga could be something insanely great or revolutionary. Oops, never mind. This Amiga thingy has absolutely nothing that Apple can't do better already. But the real bummer is the dependency on the X Window System. Read my lips, folks: "Real time multimedia and X Windows are mutually exclusive."
I rest my case.
Good thought.
Paul Allen probably doesn't have enough money and needs to invent a strange and convoluted conspiracy to make more. And Linus et. al. don't mind a bit.
Yup. That's probably it.
Last I checked USB in Linux had BETA do not use written all over it. I think the kernel maintainers said that it "was not for the faint of heart". DVD in Linux, while being worked on is still very ALPHA, (and is not yet usable.) If Amiga is going to run with this machine, I think there will be several modifications that we'll see released for the Linux kernel, unless the Linux community gets these working by the time it's going to ship. Still it's nice to see such fast development going on in the Kernel world. :)
The new OE will be hardware independent, but is designed to tightly
integrate with the hardware/cpu (which will be the optimal platform).
they have already said that the re considering porting the new OE BACK
to classic Amiga's with G3 PPC cards. so there is no reason that it
will not run on x86,Mips, Arm ect
Alan Day - Dumfries & Galloway, Scotland, UK
>And Java is not slow.
And the sky is not blue...
hardfuck... ass fuck... fuck you!
Actually, it reinforces that it is NOT mips. Look at the line above the Mips reference and it says QNX. This is an old job posting, and they've changed their direction since then. My bet is that it was going to be Mips/QNX until Transmeta demoed something to them, and they changed the direction of the ship 180. It must have been good.
Erm, I (can) run Linux on my 68K Amiga and my dual 68k/PPC Amiga
Alan Day - Dumfries & Galloway, Scotland, UK
Sony is in Japan, doof.
I see so many posts bashing Amiga. I tend to see a pc with all of the multimedia capabilities the Amiga is going to have a godsend for home users and Linux itself. Look at all of the benefits Linux will get. USB! I have avoided USB products like a skunk because of poor Linux support. Try finding a cheap scsi scanner nowdays. I can not put together a pc with this much multimedia for less $. This sounds like a revolution, and I have never owned an Amiga. I still can't believe how many people are bashing Amiga. This pc will appeal to most males I know because of a few things:
/.ers are so negative. Is just that the negative jerks reply to stuff, while most of us just read? Oh yeah, I'm just too lazy to get a nick with only my 2nd post (and I've been reading /. for 2 months religously now). I guess I'll get one for my 3rd.
1. Linux - I have a shitload of friends who just get frustrated with the install and configuring it, especially when they have the latest hardware. They want Linux, but hey, windows is so much easier to install. And these fools work in tech support!!!
2. Multimedia - TV on your pc, video capture, Surround sound, DVD, TV out! With a selling point of its time to integrate the pc with your entertainment system - I know a bunch of pc users that will buy one
3. Its not Microsoft and its going to be plug it in and go like an Apple. Too many people don't want to install an operating system. That's the facts. There are just not that many geeks out there.
Just remember everyone that this is good. At the very least, we will get some more hardware support for Linux out of this, and hey that's good!
Offpoint:
How come so many
-Gabe W
This AC verbalized the same thoughts I had after reading this "brief". Except I rather expected slashdotters to PICK UP on this. Instead, a lot of people seemed to have jumped on the bandwagon, even supplying their own little fantasies (Amiga's gonna use Transmeta's super-duper magical mystical does-anything so-cool-they-don't-NEED-to-show-a-prototype-to-any one chip!) to bolster this pap.
.5b
Be real - even if this was on the up-and-up, which I really am inclined to doubt, all we could expect out of it would be (since they'll probably soon announce dropping any hardware plans, mark my words) a pretty-but-slow window manager with some buggy Java integration.
Eric the
please.....
Let me guess, another Be FUDer. Come on, I will only accept Be, if it's users become more civil.
--
Looks like Be and Amiga have the same ideas, except for that BeOS runs on existing hardware.
Advantage: Be...no matter how good the Transmeta chip might be, if it exists.
BeOS has a larger number of users. I doubt most of those old Amiga users would come back.
Advantage: Be.
What makes the new Amiga OS so much like Linux? It has a microkernal like the BeOS, not like Linux. BeOS is POSIX complient, will the Amiga OS be?
Just the name Amiga reminds me of a dead platform. That is going to hurt them. Who wants to use a previously dead platform? It may be new technology, but as far as I am concerned new Amiga=Zombie.
Advantage: Be.
All in all, the new Amiga platform has a lot of work cut out for it. The way I see it, Be is the main competator, and they already have several advantages. BeOS is great, I would never switch to Amiga anyway.
--Never say never.
EC
EverCode
I think that discussing the hardware is only part of the real story here and to do so solely is to miss the whole point of the advance that is being made.
1) The use of the term OE is deliberate as the the new OE will be a `virtual` environment for one or many networked computers be that by ethernet, internet or by one of the new high speed net works Amiga are looking at.
2)The tech detail for amy of the new machine are widely irrelevant as Amiga I think are going to licence there technology anyway so new and higher speced machines will come out and anyway with the OE running then any one computer within the nextwork will be able to access any of the cards attached to any comnputer in the network be that a PC or silicon graphics as long as they can run the OE and are connected you can use them!
3)The oe will handle all of these connections automatical.
Now that's what I call inovation! People really must see beyond MIPS and Polygons these days that like saying a Linux Machine running on an P2 450 is inferior to a P3 of the same speed running window. Hardware wise thats true but we all know what a difference an OS or `OE` can Make!!!!!
Spence
hehe, you forgot:
:)
Object oriented
Internet appliances
portable across platforms
multimedia convergence
Pervasive networking
next-generation technology
wireless digital high speed
streaming media integration
home networking standards
computing revolution
How is that for buzzwords?
No - the P2 dispatches up to three instructions per cycle.
Why must you labor under the impression that if an operating system exists, it must exist for the sole purpose of defeating every other operating system and becoming YAWOS (Yet Another Window OS)?
Be isn't "trying" to defeat Linux. They aren't even trying to defeat Windows. They're making an operating system with interesting technology, and marketing it for specific purposes. It seems that many members of the Linux community seem to scoff at the notion of a specialized OS and then decide that Be is trying to compete head-on with Linux and Windows. Get over it.
Be is competing with Linux in the sense that it presents yet another alternative operating system on the market. They aren't trying to crush Linux. They aren't trying to eradicate Linux. Despite my support of Be (my machine is 100% BeOS), I don't think they could crush Linux if they tried. On the other hand, Be offers me things Linux can't - and I would prefer not to have my OS of choice obliterated by some reactionary zealots who subscribe to the "if you aren't with us, you're against us" view point.
If you want Linux, go for it. I support OSS wholeheartedly, and I'll stand up right with you if anybody tries to step on it or any product thereof. All I ask in return is that you don't shit on me because it doesn't fulfill my needs.
Well this job advert does lend some weight to the idea of it being MIPS based...
If it already existed then they wouldn't be visionaries, would they?
I used to (still do) have an Amiga 500. That machine kicked so much butt when I got it, and it's still kind of fun to poke around on (PEEK/POKE, get it?) every once in a while.
In the article they talk about all of the multimedia capabilities of the new Amiga. They show DVD, TV in/out, AC3 decode, and MPEG-2 live stream capture among other things. I hope I can sit this next to my TV, play a movie, play Tribes, hear it all in Dolby Digital, and compile some code while drinking beer. Now there's a technology I want!
LOAD "SIG",8,1
LOADING...
READY.
RUN
No co-processors? Then what is that 3D-engine, the 2D-engine (blitter(*), etc.), the GFX-chip, the DVD/MPEG2-decoder, the digital-TV (de)coder, audio-(de)coder, USB-handler, etc.?
OK, maybe some things are done by the CPU, but if once that can do it very fast (as like a dedicated DSP... if it's really TM-like) it doesn't counts as much.
BTW, the original Amiga was an efficient integration of things. This new thing isn't else... (Compared to PC's.)
But this time it's more open, so 'future compliant'...
(*) I just hope there will be routines to access it from apps directly.
Where is the old Amiga in all of this? This is the spec for a Mac!
- Where did Mac go for video? ATI.
- What do new Macs use for drive controllers? IDE.
- What did the iMac bring Macs? USB.
- What OS already runs on the Macs? Linux.
While I appreciate the openness of the PC architecture, I don't want an Amiga that is basically a repackaged Mac/PC.
I want the old Amiga.
- The one that could run a functional OS and apps in 1MB of RAM. Hard disks! Who needs them?
- The one that had coprocessors to offload work from the CPU. No fancy schmancy PCI bus crapola.
- The one that had the oddest expansion options and the wierdedst cases I've ever seen.
- The one with the most wacked out display resolutions imaginable (1200x400).
Where are Denise, Paula, and Fat Agnus? Where's the flat memory architecture? Where's the chip ram!?
Jay Miner's probably rolling over in his grave.
-- Perry Ketter, a.k.a. IceStorm
Sony said they had plans to release it for future home computing systems (not announced who)to compete with Intel because it currently clocks higher and faster than any P3 (almost 5 times the speed of the fastest P3).
> X, which takes up 20 MB
No, it doesn't!!!
When you ask the kernel how much memory X
takes up, it returns the total size of the
process which includes the
*entire* address space of your video card.
Most of the memory that is reported as being
used by X is the video card, NOT the X window
system.
On my system, if you start up X, it says it
is using nearly 30MB, but my free physical RAM
goes down by 4 MB or so...
XFree86 is quite fast and efficient, especially
with SHM, DGA and soon GLX, which all mean
that local X clients run at least as fast or
faster than DirectX programs on windows, and
GLX means that 3D OpenGL applications can
run across the network and still use
the Hardware Acceleration on their target display!!!. Way cooler than anything M$ do,
and also fits in well with the amiga
intention to be network-transparent.
So there. Ha.
*cough* hideous, stupid, objective-C programming language, instead of a decent language like C++ *cough*
Good point. Actually, since most Amiga software was written to run on a 7.14 MHz. CPU, pretty much any 200 MHz. CPU could emulate a 68000, even if the emulator were written in Java.
[sarcasm]
Gee, yeah, that would be really cool. Instead of being a different operating system with new forms of technology, it could just be yet another Linux distribution.
[/sarcasm]
Seriously, my biggest fear with open-sourcing BeOS is that people wouldn't work on it as a whole, but take what they could, throw it all on Linux, and then leave. Aside from the kernel, which most of the kernel developers from Linux wouldn't look at because it's a microkernel, most of the BeOS technology would simply wind up as fodder for the other Linux distributions. In the words of some anonymous Star Trek villains, "We will add your own distinctiveness to our own."
And it's not even out yet! Java, Linux, OpenGL, net-aware, broadband Internet (whatever that is). Com'on! Whas this written by Al Gore or what? Please, get the bloody thing out first before you start hyping it.
Good luck, you need it!
Sheesh,
Jón
well your going to need people !
Im cheap I do java and low level c no C++ for me
and am willing to travel where ever you want
cheers
john jones
contact johnjones@postmaster.co.uk
a poor student @ bournemouth uni in the UK (a deltic so please dont moan about spelling but the content)
The existing posts have missed the one important fact - the revolutionary thing is the Operating Environment. The fact they are using Linux is irrelevent from a technological point of view. The OE can, and will be ported to other OSs, possibly/probably even QNX.
Comments about it being another Linux distro are fair, but don`t expect it to be along the same lines as say RedHat. The AmigaObjects technology allows ease of use of Linux, without having to worry about prortability to other OSs, which as I say is the killer idea in Amigas plans.
In short Amiga plan to create a standard for network based computing (the concept Ellison/Oracle has been banging on about for the last few years)it utilizes Java simply for the existance of the Java Virtual Machine - why reinvent something when it already exists. The JVM is exactly the technology that is required for this AmigaObject concept. If the Transmeta chip is as good at emulation as is suggested, then performance worries of the JVM will be irrelevent (at least no more important than performace issues of x86 code on TM.)
The Amiga has always been the best computer to run tonnes of apps in little to no RAM.
:-)
I am assuming that they're planning on keeping this efficiency..
On a 16MB Amiga (todao), you can run your TCP stack, a web browser, your e-mail program and your newsreader with lots of rOOM to spare. If the new Amigas will come out with 32MB as standard, then the Amiga will once again set the standard for what can be done in little memory.
Hey Bill.. lets see Windows get that efficient!
The report says the following:
>>>The Amiga MCC is being designed to support state-of-the-art multimedia while leaving the PC legacy baggage behind. The MCC will
have DVD, high-performance 3D, Ethernet-based home networking, digital and traditional analog video and audio, and USB ports for
digital peripherals. It will have room for at least 2 hard drives, 2 PCI slots, 7 USB ports and an open drive bay for enthusiast options such
as Zip and Jazz drives.
In effect, this sounds like a dreams system,that ultimately could be a wonderful platform for Linux to run on. However, the USB support is still only experimental, and it looks like it may not exactly be all that user-friendly. If Amiga 'solves' these probelms, can we really expect them to act as good members of the community?
It will be a serious test for the GPL.
NO
:)
They will have to release patches they make to the kernel. They will have to release programs that link to GPL'd libraries.
But it's ok to use LGPL'd libraries, it's ok to use Linux's system calls, it's ok to use XFree86, it's ok to use the gnu tools, all without opening up your own source.
If you don't want to check this from the licenses directly, then just think of all the closed source applications that are available for Linux, e.g., WordPerfect, StarOffice, Realplayer, Netscape (5), etc.
gaming console.
It's really cheap, and it's not a PC.
Is that supposed to be an advantage? And didn't Be go that way already with known results?
If the target market is geeks/tinkerers, PCs are better because of open architecture and very rapid innovation. If the target market is teens/housewives for Internet surfing, email and games, then any number of contenders will kick Amiga's ass (Dreamcast and other coming consoles, very cheap PCs, cheap Macs, etc.)
Kaa
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
Check out www.amiga.org as they might have an opening if not go to WWW.CUCUG.ORG and check out the amiga page. The Amiga community are always willing to embrace another programmer and pretty soon you should be able to play with workbench (the Amigas current OS)! I know that this isn`t as exciting as a paid job but the Amiga community is even stonger than the linux one (yep it is possible).
AMIGA BAVCK FOR THE FUTURE AND NOW ITS THE TIME TO KICK ASS. GET ON BORD OR BE CRUSHED!!!! (you`ve been warned M$)
> I want the old Amiga.
Well use one then.
Perhaps it will be just lovely, but do Linux hackers care? We've got a hard enough time getting C coders to go to C++...let alone Java.
Incidently, if anyone's interested, QNX has put an FAQ online that has at least one interesting piece of information in it...free distribution of their environment to beta applicants.
http://www.qnx.com/amiga
-FromUpNorth
Modeline "1200x400" 80 1200 1248 1432 1532 400 401 404 445 -HSync +VSync
Requires 117.1Hz vertical, and 52.1kHz horizontal
I think the best bit of the technology brief has to be the following lines:
"Finally, there will be a suite of end-user workspaces, including a new Amiga Workbench being designed at Amiga. There are already a number of interesting desktop environments available for Linux, and it is our intent to contribute the Amiga workbench to the open source movement, and encourage the creative Amiga and Linux communities to modify, enhance, replace, and generally get creative when it comes to next-generation desktop environments (we believe that one of the disadvantages of today's Windows and Macintosh personal computers is the "closed" nature of their desktop environments)."
Add that to the promise of kernel modifications ( which have to be Open Sourced ) and you have one
*open* system..
This *could* really be a revolution...
AFAIK preemptive-multitasking works that way the OS directs the task-switchig itself, by interrupting them after a certain time (in microsecs) of running, redirecting processing to other one. So usually no one can hold processing at itself for a prolonged time, but it's well spreaded. Additionally, on Amiga the user-input has (almost) the highest priority.
With cooperative-multitasking, tasks are giving the processing over to each other, usually after some routines are finished. So it frequently happen that some task hold the processing for longer, even several seconds! (While the user can just wait...)
In the article they talk about all of the multimedia capabilities of the new Amiga. They show DVD, TV in/out, AC3 decode, and MPEG-2 live stream capture among other things. I hope I can sit this next to my TV, play a movie, play Tribes, hear it all in Dolby Digital, and compile some code while drinking beer. Now there's a technology I want!
What's the big deal? Buy a PC right now, spend some money on cards/peripherals and you can have all you listed here and now. And, by the way, you don't really want to use your TV as a computer monitor -- that really sucks.
Kaa
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
I agree, this is exactly the sort of thing we`re trying to do with the FreeOS project http://www.freeos.grid9.net(Yes, it`s a bad name). All we have recieved so far is flame, FUD & 0% support.
So which is it? Legacy with Linux, or start fresh?
Oh, and i know there is very little information on the site, it`s only a new, teensy weensy baby of a project at the moment.
(Flame away)
Run's all linux software, X, DVD, USB, H/W MPEG, 10 Base T, (hopefully also 802.11 wireless lan), IR, Accelerated 3D, OpenGL, Java, Transmeta ("Hardware assist for Linux kernel, Java VM, and classic Amiga emulation"), TV Tuner, ...
:-)
It sounds like a dream linux machine that also runs Amiga software
Paul
Those custom chips did a whole lot more than "address price/performance issues". From Miner's Atari 8-bit series, and then again in the Amiga series, his designs made so much more of the computer than just a CPU. They were tightly integrated products that could do so much more than the individual parts were spec'ed to do.
It took two full generations of Wintel parts to get to the same performance level as my Amiga 500 - which I bought in the days of the 286. Not until I had a 486 DX/2-66 was I "comfortable" running GUI apps on a PC (WFW 3.11, mind you). If Miner had been able to continue design, I think his integrated chipsets would still be way ahead of the mountains of components we have to choose from now.
I'm not saying that integrated designs are necessarily better than the modular setup we have now, but they sure made for a machine with a much different feel than the ones I use now.
The reason you need a graphics card on your Amiga now is because the Amiga's chipset evolution stopped at the 3000. I, for one, wish it hadn't.
-- Perry Ketter, a.k.a. IceStorm
Nah, they`ve been making too much noise about all of this latly for it to ALL be Vapor. Still, not all of the stuff they`ve said of late has came true (Anyone remember the "November" boxes?). All companies are capable of Vapor. Aparently, though, they have early prototypes etc. that have been demonstarted to developers etc. And it`s impressive stuff, so i`m told.
Nope, sorry,
Code quick, use Java
Code really quick, write it in Python!
and compile it to Java with JPython
Could also be the fact that they are trying to keep the lightest version around $500. With all that was listed in the specs, I don't see it happening though.
could also be sgi
the do make mips and there latest machine uses a sort of atx board (correct me if i'm wrong here)
the also have experience in multimedia chips look at nintende
but talking so much about java it could also turn out to be sun who also talk a lot about linux lately
So is C++, and almost as much as java if you consider all the object technologies (COM, OLE, etc.) for it. And at a more than 20X speed advantage! Besides, IE opitimized Java is one of the only ones that are actually usable. (The netscape VM in particular sucks.)
...is that a company who needed to design a new OS (or choose an existing one) realized that Open Source would ultimately triumph in the end, and chose to support it rather than adopt a proprietary, closed source alternative.
That's big. That's HUGE! The suits are starting to understand that no matter how much time, effort, and money they throw into closed source products, that Open Source versions of the same thing will inevitably surpass them and never look back.
This is particularly relevant for the Amiga, a computer that got dead-ended twice. Never again!
Open Source just won the war. Everything else is now just legacy baggage.
DG
No FastRAM, no hard drive, damn!
I know other people have responded to this but I would like to add my 2 cents into the ring. Linux did not have a large userbase as Be in it's second year. Be just went IPO and has to keep quiet before they can start their advertising campaign. Be has no legacy code and is a much better desktop OS Linux. Amiga takes Linux (30 years of hacks and wrappers and extensions) and adds to it 15 year old Amiga stuff and then defunt java stuff from sun. I think if you add the age it makes it 47 years worth of silt. They still use X for god sakes! And don't forget, even if they run transmeta, guess what, you can run BeOS on that too!
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
If this will work out as I suspect it will, I will be able to run all my old Amiga programs on the new Amiga, through the Transmeta cpu (which will be able to "transform" into a 680x0 runtime!).
It's compatible all the way back to the MC68000 and has the performace they boast about.
FRA: STFU GTFO
Amiga should finally stop talking. I want to see an existing product.
------------------
You may like my a cappella music
Yes, if he were alive, he would be shocked by some people's cluelessness, who don't realize that the Amiga's custom chips were designed to address price/performance issues that disappeared in the early '90s.
Why do you think most Amiga users these days use graphics cards? I use an Amige every day, but I haven't wanted to look at an Amiga chipset screenmode in many years.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
this question is for anyone who really understands the various licences used for the various software that is part of a standard linux distro. Since Amiga will be using the Linux kernel, and will apparantly be using an xfree86 Xserver, and presumably most of the gnu tools associated with linux, as well as their own tools (eg AmigaObjects), does this mean that they need to make the source code available for everything they include in their distribution? (eg AmigaObjects, kernel changes, gnu tools changes, etc).
Yes, Neutrino supports SMP.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Why all the secrecy? What does Transmeta have to hide?
The above post seems the best lead so far to add substance to
rumors that Amiga will use a Transmeta chip, but where is this
chip? Could it be that Transmeta is a con, and that our dear Linus
has been drawn into this and is required to keep his mouth shut
to cash in when the suckers put their money down and Transmeta
closes shop? (This could be the *BIG* con of the technology
industry, using big names like Linus and Allen to bait suckers
like Amiga.).
It seems that if Transmeta has a working prototype they would not
dwell in secrecy, but would at least allow selected members of the
press to attend a demo of their new wonder chip in action.
Otherwise, the press release from Amiga looked very promising.
I'll settle for any non-Wintel chip - PowerPC, Alpha, Transmeta,
and if the new machine can run a standard Linux distro and
Amiga's distro with its new Workbench I certainly will purchase one,
provided that the price remains in the middle range relative to
today's prices ($800 to $1500 for complete system minus monitor).
So what if the new Workbench is mostly an Amiga Window Manager
on top of X. X is fine - and it will improve with built-in OpenGL
support in the near future.
Very encouraging, but the secrecy is ominious. It seems so
unnecessary and brings out the worst kind of speculation about
anl individual involved who say they value open-ness and
freedom but if the price is right turns to the dark side without
even offering an explanation to the community for this bizzare
behaviour.
Until more information is forthcoming, one can only conclude that
this is just par for the course with the new Amiga - vaporware for
a nonexistent hardware platfrom.
Meanwhile, Windows 2K will be released to an adoring public.
It may be a little late, it may be bloated, and it may be buggy, but
it is a real product that runs on real hardware, unlike Amiglix.
Thank you, I thought I was the only one. :) The old amiga architecture rocked. They even had wiring diagrams in the back of the manual! They actually *let* you know how everything was hooked up! wow! I was thinking, that maybe if the new amiga turns out to be what you mentioned, we should start our own in the same concept as the old. Some ideas that I think would be fun to play around with:
;)
-extensive SMP, maybe using one of the newer technologies than SMP for multiprocessor support. Depending on how much everything costs. design it in such a way that processors/processor boards can be dropped in and out easily. Maybe use a daisy chain type system or something, with a replacable bus to scale with the number of processors. A crossbar scheme might work better? Something similar to HP's in the V class boxes?
-modular design, multiple buses for mem/proc/io/etc. Central ram pool and central cpu pool. Ability for components to grab cpu and ram for specific tasks. More exotic implementations could perhaps use fpgas if the price/prof would end up being useful. DSPs could probably be made of use quite a bit. Perhaps have it setup in a way that you could drop either cpu or dsp/fpga on the bus until the bus is saturated, so that you can have different levels of fpu/int/dsp depending on what kind of machine you want. Central ram pool has already been done, similar concept as uma.
-Object Oriented OS. If you've ever heard of oGMo's design called "Unity", you know what I'm talking about. OS and hardware are designed to be very very modular.
-components independant of each other. Each component should be able to do a minimal amount of work on it's own without interfering with any other component in the machine. Only when central ram/cpu resources become scarce should you notice a slow down. This should go hand in hand with the ability to drop in different kinds of processors, depending on what you want to be doing.
From everything I've done, and all the designs I've already drawn up, the absolutely most vital thing in this setup is the speed of the multiple busses. It will need to be able to scale so that it can pump and incredibly large amount of data around, and it won't be cheap. This certainly won't be the "budget" computer that people seem to want these days. There are some questions as to overhead with the bus designs, how to implement an efficent control mechanism, and wether or not the whole thing can even built to preform well. I think it can, but it will take a *lot* of work, and it'd need some backing to get it off the ground. Later when I take a comp arch course, I'm thinking about working with the design on a real low level, maybe use 68000 chips and see what I can do with a fast bus. it'd be an interesting experiment.
Ok, so I got *way* off topic, but essentially, this is what I want the new amiga to be.
Interesting that you brought that up. What if the Amiga OE is so self-contained that it removes the need for the GNU toolset? We'll have a Linux system for which the name "GNU/Linux" would not be appropriate.
That's a pretty good idea. As far as I'm concerned, Linux's only strength (but it is indeed a very significant one) is that it is Open Source. A brand new Open Source Microkernel OS inspired by Amiga Classic (or QNX's Neutrino) -- instead of inspired by Unix like Linux was -- would totally kick ass!
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
Sounds very interesting. Interesting enough to make me think twice about spending $2k on a new PC until I know more about when and how these are going to be released...
:)
Presuming they're running Transmeta's new processor (and I'm sure that's what everyone is thinking... in fact they hinted enough at it, I'm suprised if Transmeta is the chip maker, that they're not flipping out about it right now...), and the rumors about the ability of the processor to switch microcode on-the fly (running various instruction sets during various timeslices), this could be a true industry killer if they get good multimedia application support for native Amiga apps, run Linux apps, and have the ability to emulate other processors well enough that something like Sheepshaver and VMWare allow you to run Mac or Windows applications. Maybe not on the stock system, but if I can but a reasonably priced multimedia powerhouse, with even the option of running Mac and Windows software, that's something that would be hard to not buy.
Hardware Java is pretty slick too... sure beats running them interpreted or even JIT. Hopefully they'll (and I can't believe I'm saying this) be like Microsoft and extend Java so you're not stuck with the horrid AWT for your UI.
I think this is awfully exciting. Wonder if they're looking to hire people?
Y'all
From the rumour mill it is alleged that the CPU may be the new Transmeta chip:
I quote verbatim from www.theregister.co.uk
:quote
Posted 16/07/99 1:20pm by Mike Magee
Amiga Usenet exchange heightens Transmeta spexulation
An exchange between Jim Collas, president of Amiga, and another individual on Usenet has heightened speculation that the company may use the Transmeta processor in its Amiga MCC platform.
This morning, Amiga released its specs for its hardware platforms (see Amiga releases technical brief with 'exciting Linux CPU').
Yesterday, posting in the comp.sys.amiga.misc newsgroup, D Cousins speculated that Amiga was set to incorporate the Transmeta processor into its platform.
He pointed out that the die size, plus its ability to run emulations including classic Amiga apps, could make it a candidate.
Collas replied to that post saying: "I can't verify that any of this is true but this is a brilliant speculation. You can expect similar types of hardware/software integration and optimization in the new Amiga... this influenced the Linux decision. Unfortunately, I can't talk about certain partners yet so people will continue to reach conclusions without all of the information."
/quote
End Transmition
Maybe you live in interesting times
The Amiga had coprocessors because consumer technology didn't exist that filled their needs at the time. A 3DFX card or what have you in a PCI slot is actually a specialized coprocessor. A chip like the newest ATI offerings are a system on a chip featuring a video processor and a 3d graphics coprocessor. PCI is just the bus used to connect it. The Amiga had some bus to connect their custom chips through as well, never having owned one I don't know the name.
I think you've hit the nail on the head there - the thing that struck me the most was the fact that the whole thing is supposed to be, in essence, a distributed operating system - not only on whatever they cook up as AmigaOS, but also on other OSes through Java!
If they succeed, it really will be something special.
C++ is great if people would actually read Stroustrup (okay, so it's not for the faint hearted and you need to have been using the language for 2 years to understand a freakin word of it) but there were particular goals of the language that only about 2% of its practicing population use - making messy preprocessors unncessesary and obsolete, for instance. Java goes one step further by throwing confusing and proven bad pitfalls away, including pointers, templates, and broken control struct expressions.
Java has been proven to have faster team development cycles for this very reason, and as for speed - it's only slow 'cos the VM is being emulated.. under the Transmeta or whatever chip they're hinting at it should be no slower, if not QUICKER (due to more efficient garbage collection) than C++.
And fine.. if you want to use C, then use it. You do after all have a choice with this thing..
AmigaObjects[tm] are the foundation on which all Amiga Operating Environment services are built
snip
Networking is intrinsic to AmigaObjects, which means that AmigaObjects are free to move around on the network or use
network resources. The AmigaObject architecture by virtue of this flexibility enables a new class of "net-aware"
applications where there is no clear boundary between a device and the network.
I sure hope that these AmigaObjects have a good security structure, or the recent Viruses that have been popping up lately on Wintel will pale by comparison to what'll appear on the new Amiga
Of all the comments I've ever posted, this is definately one of them
SMP sucks? threads sucks? What the HELL are you talking about, moron?
2.2.10 does SMP quite well, thanks. Did you even bother to try or are you leaning on Mindcraft?
NTO? What's that, a new group of wrestlers? Are they gonna take on the NWO?
U r 1 | h@x0r, d0oD3rz.
(idiot.)
I can't see a big advantage over a Mac-Bbased solution.
Their hardware looks just like the new-generation Macs - no legacy devices etc.
AmigaObjects, obviously on top of X, is just like KDE 2.0 KOM/OpenParts technology.
So the only thing would be the mysterious new processor, which they won't have exclusively.
Maybe they should have rather become a commercial KDE distributor...
An open source project to make a BeOS-like OS would be cool. Start with a blank sheet, and design the OS from the start to use lightweight threads for everything, to be SMP friendly, have extremely low media latency, easy to use native GUI, etc etc, as opposed to adding these things at a later date! Of course Be has already done a fantastic job of implementing these ideas, but for some reason they get very little respect around here.
If the OSS zealots are really correct and most future software will be developed under the OSS model it'll be great to have some (more modern) alternatives to unix-like OS. Nothing wrong with unix of course, its longevity speaks for its self, but its not the ONLY way to make a good OS.
It seams strange that a new MM system will only
have 32MB RAM as standard. It should
atleast have 64Mb if not 128Mb. Am I the only one
thats thinks this is a little strange ?( For gods sake it got
a 32Mb gfx-card !!)
I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!
The old Amiga architecture belongs in the past. It is no longer viable for a computer today:
:)
- incompatible expansion cards/peripherals
- no protection from an application crashing the OS (Ha, MacOS is still stuck here
I think if you add the age it makes it 47 years worth of silt
Thanks for putting it into perspective!
Like I said previously, new Amiga=Zombie return of the dead.
If you ask me, Linux should be rebuilt from the kernel up. Not to mention the kernel still needs a lot of work.
EverCode
It seams strange that a new multimedia system will only
have 32MB RAM as standard. It should
atleast have 64Mb if not 128Mb. Am I the only one
thats thinks this is a little strange ?( For gods sake it got
a 32Mb gfx-card !!)
I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!
I think I've HURD about something like that on GNU's website.
Who the hell are all these idiots that are replying to someones elses comment but post everything in the comment "root"!
FRA: STFU GTFO
- no protection from an application crashing the OS (Ha, MacOS is still stuck here :)
HA- so is windows 9x!
:)
The copper bosses killed you, Joe. 'I never died', said he.
It doesn't sound any more incoherent than a million other OSs out there, but at least this one is being designed from the ground up to provide advanced features.
---- I made the Kessel Run in under 11 parsecs.
Seriously - someone else picked up on this to an extent.
Who does Apple use for video? ATI
What 3D API has Apple chosen? OpenGL
What do they use for peripherals? USB (And the new Macs HAVE 1394 FireWire, at Amiga they are only CONSIDERING it???)
What will the NeXT generation MacOS be? BSD UNIX core/microkernel/Object API with support for Java. (Again, possibly an advantage - Apple has their own imaging model and window manager - not X like Amiga.)
Lame.
The ram thing is probably related to the motherboard. in theory, you can have up to 4gb in a PC, but good luck fitting that many Simms, or Dimms in a system. even with 256meg sims, you can only get about 768Megs - 1gig, eventhough you can address 4gig
there not setting out to sell a Server here, I'm sure they can exspand the amount of ram when need be, it wasn't the Chip that limited DOS to 640k...
_
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
They don't need to be like Microsoft - they said they'll use Swing, the greatly enhanced Java UI that comes with Java2. It even supports pluggable look & feel, so Java apps could potentially change when you change your window manager...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
So what!!
If they did release a system with a 250mhz 68080 (Yes I know there is no such thing !!) with a 880k floppy 8 bit audio etc. The computer industry would be pissing themselves with laughter.
They are trying to be as innovative now as they were in 1985. The new computer will run so called classic AmigaOS stuff far better than any machine that commodore produced, Who cares if it is emulation if the emulation is better than the real thing.
Looking at your nick you are into BEOS (nothing wrong with that BTW), Amiga looked into using BE as the foundation but they decided against it. These guys are paid a lot of money to know what they are talking about.
Except for USB support and DVD support I don't see anything here that we don't already have. Even USB and DVD support are being worked on and in the beta stage now.
Picking this tech. brief apart I see nothing that makes me want to run out and purcase one of these mythical machines.
High-performance, next generation CPU. I don't believe in these anymore. I've seen to many of these beasts that don't live up to thier hype.
For about $200 you can pick up a 2D/3D graphics card with 32 MB of RAM an 1920x1200 resolutions with all the bells and whistles on it. A kick ass sound card is just a few bucks more. That will do all the audio that we have listed.
A decent grapics card should have DVD standard and MPEG-2. All this in hardware. TV tuners, with S-Video, composite I/O, and still image capture, I've seen video cards with all this on it. There is some questions I have about software under Linux for all this, but I know some of it, such as DVD support, are being worked on. I've seen support for the TV tuners in the kernel. Don't know how it works, but it's there. I'm not even going to touch the FM card but to say "Why?" and we have that too.
Communications options, nothing new there. 56K modems, 100/10Mb/s Ethernet, can all broadband internet options, we've got them. I don't know about the wireless options but then I'm not big on wireless networks.
The rest of the hardware goes like this. Drive controllers, PCI slots, infrared remote devices, microphone input, and USB, I've never seen a ATX motherboard without this. No points here. Granted I've never seen a ATX board with 7 USB ports but then I don't see a need for 7 USB ports.
My best guess is working around the clock this beast could be on the streets in a year. By that time anything that it has that Linux doesn't have we be devoloped through normal linux channels.
Well that is enough holes in people sacred cows. There once was a time when anything new about the Amiga would have given me wood all day. That is not the case anymore. I might change my tune when when I see it, but right now it's just words on paper.
I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
I know your reading Amiga, so here's my two cents worth. What's with this "considering 1394". If this is going to be true next-gen convergence / multimedia computer, this is an option you cannot pass up. What ever CPU you choose to use I understand that 1394 may not included in the bridge chip, but it would be worth an extra $8 - $12 to include a seperate 1394 controller chip. Users should have an option not to have their next-gen CPU architecture bogged down by slow and incredibly CPU dependent busses like UltraDMA and USB. Look: high-end PowerMacs use it! Bang for buck, 1394 is the highest speed internal/external- harddrive/peripheral/AV/networking I/O bus you can get. There are plenty of 1394 devices out there currently (CDRs, DVD-RAMs, HDDs, AV equipment etc...) and more to come. Especially if your expecting to get back into the DV business, your going to need this, don't make the mistake of not including 1394.
- Huang Bao Lin (2 time Amiga owner)
huangbaolin@yahoo.com
The hardware isn't the point here. It's the aim of the OS. Network computing isn't the future anymore - think about it. The Microsoft OS isn't the future anymore. By using a portable base and focusing on providing an optimal Java application environment, the Amiga is once again jumping five steps ahead of the next best thing.
Switching from QNX to Linux on a moment's notice doesn't seem so absurd if you look at the fact that this architecture obviates the need to rely on a particular underlying architecture. They could probably go Mach in a later OS update and the user would never notice.
I'm starting to get excited again. Given all the above and the promise of good multimedia support, something Linux still doesn't quite have, this could be a developer's best springboard for Things To Come.