US Congress Debates National ID Card

razorwire writes "Via HNN: Wired News is reporting that a 1996 law to require Social Security numbers on drivers' licenses may be amended to require digital records of your fingerprints and other personal data to be stored in an embedded chip. Sounds very creepy to me. "

Comments

Scary...

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like just another way to get more control over people's lives. Its amazing how many things are done to control people and only show 'you're' point of view under other guises (sp?). Like cracking down on free speech by saying we're protecting children. Hey doesn't anyone else think thats the parents job? At any rate if this bill passes i plan to 'accidently' leave my license on one of those pad that say 'do not put credit cards on this!'. Opps...the chip scraped off too.

Re:Scary...

[hope1ess]

And strangely co-incident with a personal job offer in Germany...hmmm, perhaps it's time to leave the country? Certainly seems an omen of some sort, and a portent of less than ideal times to come.

Someone tried to justify this with saying that Smith's real goal is to fight illegal immigration, or course as is typical in this particular debate, all the attention focuses down south, atleast making me question the motives...add a genetic component to the gobs of data stored, and we can have a properly automated form of racial prejudice, just what we need in Amerika...

The nice thing about our modern age of a billion net-freebies, sending political faxes using a free-fax service...


Don

Re:Before the privacy adovacates get medieval on t

[Anonymous Coward]

Because anyone that can read the card can know everything about you. And why should my fingerprints be on my license anyway...in fact, since i've NEVER been arrested why should they be on file at all. Thats kinda like assuming you will do something wrong...

There seems to be a much easir way to stop illegal's using medicare....ask for thier ssn. Wow that works. Besides what the law intends and what possiblities for abuse it opens up are two different things.

It's already law

[Anonymous Coward]

They're only arguing over implementation. And no, the ACLU is not all over it. They've been very quiet about this. As long as Best Buddy Bill is in the WH, you won't hear much out of them.

This WH has been using the IRS to target its political opponents now for 7 years. The world's most popular news web site has been continually hammered by made up tax audits during Bill's reign.

Stick your wrist out, and accept your tattoo.

Re:It's already law

[Anonymous Coward]

>(I also am not sure about your claim of use of the IRS against enemies - what site are you refering to?)

The site is WorldNetDaily.com, it is a *gasp* Conservitive site. They were a non-profit group until billy boy sicked the IRS on them. It seems they were investigating Vince Fosters "suicide", so a memo went out from the white house to the IRS "suggesting" an audit. The agent in charge admitted it was political.

Check out the story in the WSJ.

Re:It's already law

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems they were investigating Vince Fosters "suicide"

Really, that sentence tells us all we need to know about their credibility.

Re:It's already law

[Anonymous Coward]

Democrats are one step away from Socialist. Socialist are one step away from Communist and all three want to control every aspect of our lives. It's no wonder this law is already on the books.

Re:It's already law

[Romen]

I don't quite follow your logic here. The ACLU supports the current President (according to you - they don't endore politicans) and therefore they won't criticize congressional efforts to limit your privacy? Where's the connection?

Furthermore, your claims are in direct contradication to the easily availible evidence. Check out this ACLU page for more information on their campaign against this law, and to send a fax to your members of congress uring them to repeal it.

(I also am not sure about your claim of use of the IRS against enemies - what site are you refering to?)

Romen

ps - the nazi tatoos were on the arm, not the wrist

Re:It's already law

[IntlHarvester]

Nixon was a paranoid nut.

Paula Jones was living off her 'legal fund' and other mysterious donations from republican interests.

Going from a government salary to unemployed to a bunch of strange income sources seems like a pretty ripe reason to come out on top of the audit computer's list.
--

Re:It's already law

[IntlHarvester]

Oh, I believe abuses of power happen. That doesn't mean that IRS wouldn't have audited Paula Jones regardless.
--

Re:It's already law

[angelo]

ps - the nazi tatoos were on the arm, not the wrist

Inside forearm, and I think the previous poster was speaking of the mark of the beast.

Re:It's already law

[I R A Aggie]

Nixon was a paranoid nut. Paula Jones was living off her 'legal fund' and other mysterious donations from republican interests.

Don't believe them. The current occupant of the Oral Office isn't above using the FBI for his dirty work.

Can you say "Illegally Obtained FBI Files"? perhaps "Travelgate"? oh, and if you know, who was on Hillary's taxpayer financed Heath Care Reform Task Force? no one seems to know...

James

Re:It's already law

[Stonehand]

The use of IRS audits as a political weapon is nothing new. 'ccording to Nixon's memoirs, he suspected the Kennedys of harrassing him and his family via the IRS. Paula Corbin Jones, despite not having an income that remotely approached the normal thresholds where they become common, was "coincidentally" audited. And so forth...

"Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." -- Lord Acton

Re:The *require* SSNs to be on the card?

[Anonymous Coward]

The law isn't supposed to go into effect until this Oct....so after then it would be manditory

Re:Requiring SSN on Driver's Licenses

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, there most definitely *is* such a law, because there's been a long-running campaign to get it repealed. Maybe if Americans spent more time looking at the laws which their wonderful government is passing, less of this police state crap would happen.

Might be worth it

[Anonymous Coward]

Something like this *may* eventually lead to a full-scale deployment of electronic money. If that's the case, I'm all for it. I wish my bills came via e-mail, and could all be paid with credit card. *click* - paid for. Not: open envelope, throw away assorted crap, find bill, read bill, get checkbook, get pen, write check, find envelope, stuff envelope, lick&seal envelope, find & apply stamp, write address, stick in mailbox, hope it gets there in time.

Re:Might be worth it

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually there is a web site were you do get emailed when bills come in, and can click to pay them. I forget what it is right now tho :( and all done w/o some liberty threatening id card!

Re:Might be worth it

[Anonymous Coward]

Life's a lot better if you don't have to eat garbage and sleep on the streets. If licking envelopes is the bad part of your week...you sleep on silk sheets, right?

You abhor going to the cash machine? I bet that just about ruins your week.

-kabloie

Re:Might be worth it

[kabloie]

Freedom from licking envelopes ain't quite the freedom I'm interested in.

An electronic ID card leading to e-money? Not unless it's a 'smart' card. Which is an oxymoron if there ever was one.

-kabloie

Re:Might be worth it

[karnal]

whew.....

I think a good common ground could come out of this. Consider my situation. I use my bank card for most purchases, use online banking to pay all bills, and can still go to the money machine if I need cash.

Sure, I truly abhor going to the money machines now, but life is a lot better not having to stuff envelopes......

Re:Might be worth it

[mfrog]

You're an idiot! Moving to completely electronic money would all but destroy economic freedom within the United States... for example, it is currently illegal to hire your neighbor to mow your lawn if you haven't filled out the appropriate paper work (W-4's and such).. however, a quick exchange of a 20 dollar bill and no one ever knows and they shouldn't know because no harm is done. However, with electronic transaction every single exchange of money is monitored... You can forget loaning your friend a few bucks without having to pay some taxes... Don't be such a panty-waist about paying your damn bills.

Re:Great idea!?????

[Anonymous Coward]

Well if radio shack asks me anything like that i tell them to piss off. They don't need to know it...at most they'll get my license number and only if i happen to be writing a check.

and you're right about thta last statement...which is very scary indeed. Look at history, there are alot of opressive gov'ts that existed, but only b/c they knew so much about their citizens. Germany in the mid 1930s, England in the 1700s (if it wasn't, why did so many people want to leave??)

I can't wait...

[Anonymous Coward]

...to contribute to the confusion.

The idenity thiefs will have a field day with this one. I surely hope that the Federal government already has the basics for the database in place; otherwise, it's going to be polluted, poisoned and generally exploited by those who know how. The truly cleaver will exploit the bogus identies that the government installs...

Re:finger prints

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, in Georgia, they already require fingerprints to get your license! Thats right, they digitaly encode it on the back of the license. THis is why I have not got my license renewed and don;t plan on ever doing so.

Why fight it?

[Anonymous Coward]

How can you or I fight it? We can't.

Now, if you won the lottery, you could actually try taking things to court and try to have the SSN enforced.

How did this come about? Cheap computing and cheap networking. Anyone want to stop computers/networking?

Re:Why fight it?

[Anonymous Coward]

How can you or I fight it? We can't.

Actually, we can. It involves shooting to death the people who pass these kinds of laws, though, and most people are too afraid to do something like that. It's tough to find a grassy knoll when you need one, too.

This is the true reason so many people in government want to take away the guns -- so we won't shoot them if they do want they really want to do. This is also the reason why so many people want to keep their guns -- so that hopefully the government won't do stupid things in the first place. (so much for that theory...)

Keep your powder dry...

Re:Why fight it?

[duckbill]

You can fight it. There are tons of ways. Commit time or resources to organizations that fight these laws in a peaceful manner (Consider the ACLU or EFF). Email, fax, and call your congressional representatives. Let them know you vote and you care about your civil liberties. Start your own action groups, and raise awareness of liberty issues. If you really think this is important, take it to court. Fighting for liberty is like having children. You don't think you have the money to do it, but after you commit you find a way to make it happen.
Make your voice heard and fight for liberty.

Reverse engineering data into atoms

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure finger print data mark-up methods have standardized. Has anyone ever attempted to re-create finger prints from the data? Some of these 3-D faxes are starting to reach the point where they might have enough resolution to build a nice master for some latex finger fobs.

This begs the question, how well do they intend on protecting data will be widely distributed. Given my practical experience with key managment and crypto, I would never trust any current encryption system with fingerprint data (let alone genetic data) that will be as fluently distributed and used as today's drivers license.

The USA is rapidly becomming a fscked up country... I mean even more so than it already is.

Re:Reverse engineering data into atoms

[Anonymous Coward]

this is not entirely true. there is at least one standard for fingerprint markup with regards to fingerprint typing (ie whorl, right loop, arch. . .etc). it's called the henry method. similarly, there is a de facto standard in law enforcement software for fingerprint image compression (a lossy method called WSQ).

i would agree that there is currently no standard for "coding" prints (at least in law enforcement).

with regards to biometrics applications in credit card processing (and similar), it doesn't appear there are currently any interoperability standards. in general, the first one there with a large deployment probably wins.

Re:Reverse engineering data into atoms

[MadShark]

I work daily with fingerprint technologies and believe me, there is no such thing as a standard "mark up" method. Every company has their own proprietary way of doing things. Every companies algorithms that I have worked with have said there is no way to reconstruct the actual fingerprint from the data the extract(of course!!). From the amount of data that results from processing a fingerprint I tend to beleive this. There is a puch in the industry right now to come up with a standard but there is alot of opposition because each company wants theirs to be the standard. I'm guessing it will sort out when Microsoft begins to throw its weight around.

No problem!

[Anonymous Coward]

The only person that is going to be screwed by this is the guy that gets National ID #666. :-) My social security number isn't 666 so I guess I am ok. ;-)

Re:No problem!

[SpamHeart]

AC writes:

The only person that is going to be screwed by this is the guy that gets National ID #666. :-) My social security number isn't 666 so I guess I am ok. ;-)

=================================

Naw, it could be 1010011010 (Binary of the Beast)
29A (Hexidecimal of the Beast...)

DC

Book

[Anonymous Coward]

For those of you who think this doesn't matter,
and anyone who wants a fun fantasy read,
check out "the Alien Years" by Robert Silverberg.
It's a great book, and touches on how people can be herded around using stuff like this.

different tax and id numbers

[Anonymous Coward]

Tax id numbers should be hard to discover to
prevent financial identity theft.
Even the IRS no longer puts tax id numbers on
general correspondence, because theives were
stealing them.

BULL F**KING SH*T!!! (BAD LANGUAGE WARNING)

[Anonymous Coward]

>The senator that wants to introduce this is aiming to use it to curb illegal immigration. Based on his comments, I doubt that he was aware of
> privacy concerns at the time.

Are you really that fucking stupid? Or are you just naive as hell? (just helps prove my 80% rule)

These cocksuckers know EXACTLY what they are doing! They just throw some buzz words like "illegal immigration", "crime", "domestic terrorism" and "for the chidren" around and all the goddamn sheeple just roll over and spread their legs!

If they wanted to end illegal immigration (the bulk of which comes over the border with Mexico) they could do it! Rotate Army and Marine units down there for training. Guarding the borders is NOT a violation of the Posse Commitus Act.

They want to know everthing about you and have it handy so they can CONTROL you. "Oh, you're just being paranoid" my ass! Look at how things are already! The bastards tax everthing but air and I'm sure they are working on that! You need the governments permission to do just about anything legal. And most things are ILLEGAL! Hell, you are probably breaking a couple of dozen laws right now. There are several MILLION statutes at the federal level alone!

It is ALL ABOUT CONTROL! And it is getting SCARY!

Re:Requiring SSN on Driver's Licenses

[Anonymous Coward]

I tried to refuse to give my SSN when I renewed my driver's license in PA.... The agent also refused to give me a new license. He said "Call your representative".

Re:Before the privacy adovacates get medieval on t

[Anonymous Coward]

If He's a US Senator and isn't aware of the privacy issues with a national ID card with your fingerprints encoded, then he's an incompetent fool. I think stemming the tide of illegal immigrants is an exelent idea, but I disagree on his methods.

Re:Illegal Laws

[Anonymous Coward]

It would also be nice if the states ignore the federal government's "requirement" to do this with their drivers' licenses. What's the federales going to do, arrest an entire state?

It would be nice if a state or two just decided "... to heck with all this crap; we seceed!" Wouldn't it be nice if the 50 governors held a meeting to discuss the abolition of the federal government of the U.S.? Oh, I know I'm dreaming...

Non-U.S. ID?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen a few comments from others in countries that require national identification papers or cards. (Non-digital though, I would expect.) I'd be interested to hear more of their opinions on how this matter works in practice.

Re:Non-U.S. ID?

[PrinceOfChaos]

In Russia, we have passports as primary form of identification. Newer passports contain little personal information but have the number - passport number but you need it not very frequently - mostly you can just show your passsport and that's also rarely needed.
I don't understand why US can't have normal identification card (ID card) - why license for driving should be used as ID card?

Re:Requiring SSN on Driver's Licenses

[Anonymous Coward]

> Its funny, but this kinda of thing doesn't happen as much in countries with a lower crime rate.

Oh, that's classic... I'll have to put that in my .sig someday.

Countries with low crime rates do things like:

come around to your house once a year to insure you still live there (Japan). Not only that, but they come around to your door demanding that you pay your Television tax (UK and Japan). That would go over real well in the good old US of A.

Think the recreational sports of Rape and Wife Beating (tm) are a family matter (Japan, Korea, China, Italy, etc.).

have laws where you are presumed guilty before innocent (England). And a swift trial... fsck you and the prime of your life. God help you if you belong to an organized religion in a godless state with a low crime rate... you're basically fscked.

Beat/shoot/incarserate their population into submission (too many to list). Remember, your kids christmas toys were most likely assembled by either child or prison labor and definetly not that little North Pole lie you tell them.

Allow criminals to buy their way out of guilt and/or prosecution (Japan, Indonesia). I personally had the privledge of buying my way out of a traffic ticket in Bali. No license, minor moving violation wihtout any property damange. Worked out great at the exchange rate at the time (like $5 or a month's salery for the cop). Sucks if some rich bastard kills a close friend.

Do not allow their citizens to own dangerious pointy things, including large knives (Japan, must be registered) or guard dogs (again, must be registered). An ogisan was just put in jail for the remainder of his life sorry-assed-life for mataining ownership of a museum quality antique firearm incapable of firing a round.

...or just don't report non-violent, minor crime. (far too few). You want us to report that stolen car? Nope, that's out of our jurisdiction (which we just shrank by 50 square miles this year alone).

It is certainly NOT a factor. Nation states, just like individuals, commit crimes. It's just that the biggiest Nation state world cops never get what what they comming. Trust me when I tell you that you, and your measily right, have a about as much signifance as an ant under a sadistic 8 year old's magnifying glass.... I don't give a damned what your Magan Carta, Decleration of Independence or Brand Spanking New Constitution sez.

The world, as the "Founding Fathers" of the US constitution envisioned, died a LONG TIME AGO.

how about .........

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a novel idea for taking care of some of the illegal immigration problems. Enforce the multitude of laws that we already have. I mean seriously, do we need more laws to restrict good people's freedoms? This new ID won't bother the illegal immigrants one bit, it would just be another pain for those of us that actually obey laws.

Jeez, get a clue!

[Anonymous Coward]

>How many of the migrant workers do you think are illegal aliens? I'd bet a *very* significant portion are. Maybe the farmer shouldn't ask
questions, but I know that there are people in America, legal citizens, unemployed, who could use work of any kind.

The reason they use migrant workers is they can't FIND citizens to do it. It is hard, nasty work and people here simply WILL NOT do it.

Baby sitters, etc.? They work for individuals, on a very temporary basis. What this is supposed to provide is a method of positively identifying
someone, with less possibility of forgery, in my mind. If you hire a baby sitter, you're going to hire someone you know, or someone who comes
from a similar situation to yours. You're not going to put an ad in the classifieds asking for a baby sitter. If you did, you'd probably be looking
for something a bit more permanent, and in that case, knowing positively who they were would be a very good thing. I would never leave a kid
for an extended period to someone I didn't know.

Oh, I suppose all that flap a few years ago about "illegal nannies" (some people lost federal offices over it) never happened? Same as above, nasty work nobody here wants.

Lawn mowers? Again, I've got to think that that would be the neighborhood kid, not someone you actively search for. If you are searching for
someone, it's probably going to be the neighborhood kid that you find, again someone you would know.

Gawd, where have you been living? People make a KILLING mowing yards! Neighborhood kids won't do it, again it is hot an nasty work! Adults do it, work for cash (no taxes) and take home a couple of grand a WEEK!

I think you have to look at this as it's intended. For business/government, where positive identification without possibility of forgery is
important. I don't think it's a bad idea.

I THINK (really think, with facts) it is a REALLY BAD IDEA!

Universal ID number

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi. Just a small note that the same problem is occurring in Canada. Everyone and everything has a number (People - social insurance number, or SIN, and organizations - business number, or BN). Few people in this country have noticed that the SIN number and BN number are the same length, and are part of the same system. These number systems cover everything the government does for(/to?) people and organizations, from income tax to unemployment insurance, and old age pensions. On the upside, this does not become a huge deal as long as the government is watched by a noisy parliament and a free press. The computer revolution is making it easier for the government to centrally index everything, and they're trying hard to do it. Cross referencing your employer's payroll tax remittances against your personal tax return, for instance.

My fingerprints are already on my license!

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know how many of you live in Georgia, or if any other states do this, but a couple years ago they started issuing new drivers licenses that contain your fingerprints (just forefinger on each hand I think, actually) encoded on the back of the license (NOT on a magnetic strip--it's actually printed on the back). But on the other hand, I don't have my social security number as my drivers license--that's optional.
Personally, it doesn't bother me too much, and I've never heard of any abuse in the state from this either.

Succede!

[Anonymous Coward]

It is time to leave the union! Let's find a few good states and just up and succede!

We will base our government on the original Constitution, but give it some teeth! If you take an oath to uphold and protect the Constitution and then break that oath, you WILL BE EXECUTED!

Naw, that's too crazy. It just might work.

Re:Succede!

[Mr. Bad Example]

>It is time to leave the union! Let's find a few good states and just up and succede!

The first requirement for citizenship in the new country would be knowing how to spell words like "secede".

Re:finger prints

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't think that it will stop with the government. Pretty soon you'll write a check at a store and they'll just rund you Driver's Lesence through the scanner. They'll keep track of everything you buy, what you like, how often you go to the store, even what time of day. Then they sell this information. Suddenly anyone who can get a hold of that info knows your habbits and preferences. Any sembelence of privacy is gone. You may think this is some wild consiracy theory. However, many retailers already collect this info when you use store credit cards.

THE CONSTITUTION!?!?!...

[Anonymous Coward]

...you MUST BE A COMMIE, or one of those baby eating, KKK nazi militia types! I be you OWN GUNS! And a BIBLE even! And ENCRYPTION SOFTWARE!

Where do you live, anyway? Don't worry, a stay in the Camp and you will feel fine.

Time for a select quote from...

[Anonymous Coward]

...Oracle's SQL Reference Manual (version 6.0):

Chapter 1 - The Relational Model (p. 1.13)
Section: Keys Subsection: Unique Keys

[...]
Example of unique keys that are not primary keys include

- a truck's license page number (the truck's primary key is the truck number)

- an employee's social security number (the employee's primary key is employee number)
[...]

Now I guess we all know how far Larry Ellison's chutzpah permieates the his company.

BTW, is there any turth to the matter that Watson and Crik defected from the UK's research community because the US was willing to fund their research while the England thought that they were headed in to dangerous territory with their cataloging vision?

Remember, radios collars are getting smaller and more comfortable for YOUR convience.

Re:Time for a select quote from...

[Rombuu]

What am I missing here? SS numbers are bad Primary Keys if you have non-US employees...

Re:Great idea! Mark of the Beast

[Anonymous Coward]

For those of you with Christian beliefs here is a neat one. In 1997 I was stationed at NATTC in Pensacola Florida. The Navy/Gov. started issuing MARC cards. These were little ID cards with ICs embedded in them. Supposed to carry all information of the individual. Rumor had it that the ICs also had some sort of tracking ability. They said soon it would move to the point where you wouldn't be able to do anything with out swiping your MARC card. Several of my friends had strong Christian backgrounds and though the card sounded all to much like the mark of the beast. When they would not accept the card, they were threatend with dishonorable discharges. They all went down to the chaplan who wouldn't help them in their plee. I transfered and don't know what happened to them, BUT I know they were heard somewhere on up that stupid chain of command. The cards are now at least card SMART cards.

retail purchase tracking

[Anonymous Coward]

And now every supermarket has a "discount club" that uses a bar-coded club card to log all your purchases. If you don't use the card, you won't get the club discout price (ie: the non-over-inflated price).

Re:Great idea!?????

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought a phone at RadioShack last weekend. They didn't ask me anything.

Re:Great idea! Mark of the Beast

[Anonymous Coward]

Check out Revelation 13:6

"[The anti-Christ] also forced everyone, small and great ... to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark"

Re:Illegal Laws

[Anonymous Coward]

They wouldn't arrest an entire state. What they would do is threaten to drop the state's federal highway money (or something similar).

The small-balled state politician then just falls right into line.

How topical

[Anonymous Coward]

I suppose you also have guys named Harry Tuttle who offer to fix your ducts on the sly when Central Services can't get to you for at least a month...

Re:Illegal Laws

[Anonymous Coward]

I know, I know... I said I was dreaming.

If even ONE state stood up and said "Fine, screw your money" then the rest might develop some backbone too... there I go, dreaming again. Sorry; it's a bad habit.

MONKEYWRENCH!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's about time to start frying government computer systems. It's not hard (look it up).

We don't need or want to harm anything related to National Security, just the FBI, SSA, IRS and other unneeded systems.

I'm not talking about fraud, I'm talking about freedom.

Jan. 1 will be a golden opportunity to monkeywrench their asses!

DEATH TO THE MACHINE! UP THE REVOLUTION, BABY!

Re:MONKEYWRENCH!

[Anonymous Coward]

Jan. 1 is also an excellent time to have all those logic bombs in the code go off... perfect cover for it, eh? I always wonder how many "government programmers" are really sabotaging the systems they work on....

Re:Illegal Laws

[Anonymous Coward]

Not all state politicians are "small balled". I know that until a few years ago here in Louisiana we didn't abide by the federal government's "must be 21 to buy alcohol" law. It was still 18 here until 2 or 3 years ago.

AC #2435

Re:I don't want my fingerprints on my license!

[Anonymous Coward]

sufficient time and sandpaper. that's the hard way. all you need is a job as a bank teller. as you thumb through money, they wear off.

note: not having fingerprints is a hassle for people living in states requiring fingerprinting for licensing or background checks. it goes something like this:

1) lazy-ass state employee takes the fingerprints
at a branch office
2) the fingerprint card is sent to the main
office
3) equally lazy-ass state employee (lase) tries
to scan them into the system. a problem
occurs when the prints are "coded." these
prints don't have normal ridges or valleys.
as a result, the fingerprint characteristics
(AKA minutiae) is unusable.
4) lase sends a nasty gram back to the field
office telling them to redo the prints
5) goto 1

as you might suspect given the general idiocy of bureaucratic organizations (especially in govt), this sort of nonsense can go on forever.

Re:ahem ... paranoia all about

[Anonymous Coward]

> And for those quoting the bible : use your mind for a change.

What do you use as a plumb-line, to make sure you don't get too far away from the Truth?

Rev. 13:6 - "[The anti-Christ] also forced everyone, small and great ... to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark"

These words were written almost 2000 years ago. What would it take to convince you that the Bible is true?

Bad for Feds, but OK for corporations, states?

[Anonymous Coward]

People who are opposed to national ID cards generally have no objections to employee ID cards, drivers licenses or other kinds of ID.

How is a national ID different from your driver's license, really? Isn't your driver's license Orwellian? Does a driver's license count as the mark of the beast? If not, why not, exactly?

At my supermarket, people actually carry around and use cards which let the company track their purchases. In my mind, that's REALLY scary.

Is a passport Orwellian? If not, why not?

What about a credit card?

Re:Bad for Feds, but OK for corporations, states?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you don't like employee ID cards, find another employer, or start your own business.

If you don't like driver's licenses, then don't drive (ok, that's a tough one).

If you don't like supermarket cards, then don't get one.

Don't like credit cards, pay cash.

If you don't want a national ID card, what'cha gonna do?

The point is that there's an implicit agreement that goes with employee IDs, supermarket cards, credit cards, etc.. For example, with supermarket cards, they give you a discount in exchange for marketing information, with credit cards, they give you credit in exchange for money, etc.. National ID cards are purely for the benefit of our masters, the federal government.

Re:Bad for Feds, but OK for corporations, states?

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh. You're dreaming. :) The feds are not your masters. Visa and Mastercard are your masters, bud. Just don't you cross them. :)

Seriously, though, I'll bet the National ID would let you opt out, if you wanted. Just like you can opt out of having a SSN, if you want. You're not required to have an SSN, if you don't want one.

I think if any of these cards are Orwellian, then *all* of them are. It's unrealistic to think that you can opt out of a driver's license or a credit card.

If it bugs you that the Feds are keeping track of you, or that the KGB or the IRS is keeping track of you, then it should bother you that Visa and your supermarket are keeping track of you. You cannot easily opt out of this, just like you cannot easily opt out of having a SSN or a driver's license.

Pssst -- look behind you, the corporate surveillance camera is watching!

Re:Bad for Feds, but OK for corporations, states?

[Anonymous Coward]

You need an SSN to "contribute" to the social security fund, therefore you need an SSN to work, period (legally at least). Even if you're a legal alien.

I believe the IRS also requires an SSN on tax forms, if for no other reason than to track your SS "contributions".

But you're missing the point, you _can_ opt out of almost all forms of ID, credit cards, supermarket cards, whatever. If you think the masters would let you opt of a National ID... I've got this bridge in Brooklyn for sale, cheap.

Re:Bad for Feds, but OK for corporations, states?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see a flaw. I see someone shopping at the wrong stores.

Re:Bad for Feds, but OK for corporations, states?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not true. You don't *have* to have an SSN. You are not required to become a federalized citizen, and yes, you can legally get a job without an SSN. It's a major hassle if you decide to do opt out, but you *can* opt out. Do some research into this -- you will be surprised at just how far you are allowed to opt out, perfectly legally.

What I am saying is, it doesn't matter whether you can "theoretically" opt out. If it's really hard to opt out, then that's as good as being a requirement. You cannot opt out of a driver's license or a credit card number without having major hassles, and I claim that this is as good as making it required.

I share your suspicions of the government, but I don't understand why you don't extend your suspicions to other institutions, which control you in very direct ways, and with almost no democratic oversight. Corporations can coerce you, too, and what are you going to do, boot them out in the next election? How? Are you going to live in the woods with no connection to the banking system? Is this your plan? For real?

I think "masters" is a bit of an exaggeration, but if we're going to exaggerate, then I think we should expand the notion of "masters" to include the corporate "governments" which control you directly.

TRW is watching!

Re:Bad for Feds, but OK for corporations, states?

[I R A Aggie]

I share your suspicions of the government, but I don't understand why you don't extend your suspicions to other institutions, which control you in very direct ways, and with almost no democratic oversight.

Because I trust them to be more interested in their bottom line and keeping me as a happy, contented customer. They want my business, and want to know what I want/need desire/do and try to cater to those desires.

A government can coerece me with a law, or if necessary, the barrel of a gun. Visa doesn't have that power. Yet. :)

James

Re:Bad for Feds, but OK for corporations, states?

[jflynn]

>If you don't like driver's licenses, then don't drive (ok, that's a tough one).

Yeah, but not too bad. I'm 47, live in the Bay Area Valley and have never had a driver's license. I wouldn't want to try it with a family however! I do need a California ID, or I can't cash my paychecks. They just aren't impressed when you show up with a birth cerificate.

>Don't like credit cards, pay cash.

Also never had one of these. For a period of a few years it was very difficult to cash checks (at my home branch) or use them due to lack of a second ID, usually requiring special permission from some manager. This has pretty much gone away today, most all places take just a California ID. (But don't try to rent something like a U-Haul or a movie!)

My point is that if life-critical functions require something, the "freedom not to use it" is pretty hollow.

I wish more places would use COD, phone billing, be willing to start cash accounts for customers, or at least accept ATM cards.

Funny thing is, I might even tolerate a national ID card, just so I definitely DIDN'T have to have any OTHER form of identification. As it is credit cards are the default national ID, and I don't trust those companies any more than the government. Its pretty well known, anyone "connected" can access the damn database.

I'd want to be able to take a look at the card with my computer though and see exactly what information was on it, and what was accessed(and by whom) recently. If a store got too nosy, they wouldn't see me again. If the government or an employer got too nosy then legal recourse should be possible.

Jim

Re:Bad for Feds, but OK for corporations, states?

[Nachtfellen]

Well, at least one flaw with that argument is that (at least in a case comparing local stores here), the discounts they offer are only off of (largely) inflated costs, or on products where the lower price is offered as incentive by the manufacturer, and other stores are likely offering the same discount, without the card.

As far as drivers licenses, I only got one to drive, not as ID, record tracking, age verification, etc. Unfortunately, I have no choice but to take the good with the bad if I have to drive; however, I will leave the other points to everyone else to argue...

Re:Bad for Feds, but OK for corporations, states?

[mincemeat]

Emmigrate.

Re:Great idea!

[Anonymous Coward]

Prediction: There will be elected a President
of the United States in the 21st
Century who will have had an
ancestor who was an illegal alien.
Any bets on this?

Finger prints already required to be on gov file.

[Anonymous Coward]

At least for some occupations. For instance, in Nevada all employees in the gaming industry, from the software developpers (like me) to the change girls, has to have their fingerprints on file with the state. You need this to get a 'work card' (aka a 'gaming card'), which employers by law require employees to have. Who else has access to this DB? I have no idea. But when faced with 'give us your prints' or being unemployed... there's not always a lot of choice.

Fingerprints are already on your ID

[Anonymous Coward]

They just aren't digital... Unless you're really careful to be wearing rubber gloves when you touch it!

Ya wannt consolidate? Why have 50+ indep. DMVs?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not to have a single national Department of Motor Vehicles, licenses would have to be renewed every 10 years (maybe more often for very old and very young age groups). Car registration every 5th year or so would be OK too. There's no reason for more frequent renewals except for $$$. And the bureaucracy of one national DMV would be less than the sum of 50+ independent DMVs.

Re:Ya wannt consolidate? Why have 50+ indep. DMVs?

[laetus]

Hey, with that logic, let's just consolidate all 50 state governments into a single Federal government in Washington, save money, and say screw the Constitution and states' rights.

Re:Ya wannt consolidate? Why have 50+ indep. DMVs?

[Mr. Slippery]

That already happened. It was when the Articles of Confederation were tossed out in favor of the Constitution. And people howled...

Uh, no. The Constitution strictly limits the powers of the federal government. Article I, Section 8 ennumerates the powers of the federal government:

• to collect taxes and borrow money to fund its activities
• to regulate interstate and international commerce (which is a biggie)
• to establish laws on naturalization and bankruptcies
• to coin money, regulate its value, and fix the standard weights and measures
• to make laws against counterfeiting
• to create a postal system
• to make copyright and patent laws
• to create lower courts
• to make laws against piracy
• to declare war
• to create and regulate the army and navy
• to call out the militia to "execute the laws..., suppress insurrection, and repel invasions", and to provide for organizing and arming it
• to control a capitol district and other federal lands

Amendments gave the feds the power to ban slavery; to make the states provide equal protection, due process, recognition of civil rights to all citizens, and voting rights to blacks, women, and 18 year olds; to collect income taxes; and to prohibit poll taxes.

That's it. For good or ill, as far as the law is concerned, that's all that the feds have jurisdiction over. Anything else and they're out of line.

Amendment X states:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Read the damn thing - meaningless as it may be today - yourself: http://www.infamous.net/document s/constitution.txt.

Re:Ya wannt consolidate? Why have 50+ indep. DMVs?

[Mr. Slippery]

That already happened. It was when the Articles of Confederation were tossed out in favor of the Constitution. And people howled...

Uh, no. The Constitution strictly limits the powers of the federal government. Article I, Section 8 ennumerates the powers of the federal government:

• to collect taxes and borrow money to fund its activities
• to regulate interstate and international commerce (which is a biggie)
• to establish laws on naturalization and bankruptcies
• to coin money, regulate its value, and fix the standard weights and measures
• to make laws against counterfeiting
• to create a postal system
• to make copyright and patent laws
• to create lower courts
• to make laws against piracy
• to declare war
• to create and regulate the army and navy
• to call out the militia to "execute the laws..., suppress insurrection, and repel invasions", and to provide for organizing and arming it
• to control a capitol district and other federal lands

Amendments gave the feds the power to ban slavery; to make the states provide equal protection, due process, recognition of civil rights to all citizens, and voting rights to blacks, women, and 18 year olds; to collect income taxes; and to prohibit poll taxes.

That's it. For good or ill, as far as the law is concerned, that's all that the feds have jurisdiction over. Anything else and they're out of line.

Amendment X states:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

Read the damn thing - meaningless as it may be today - yourself: http://www.infamous.net/document s/constitution.txt.

Re:Ya wannt consolidate? Why have 50+ indep. DMVs?

[J. Pierpont]

That already happened. It was when the Articles of Confederation were tossed out in favor of the Constitution. And people howled...

-awc

Re:Ya wannt consolidate? Why have 50+ indep. DMVs?

[J. Pierpont]

I have read it. And the Articles of Confederation.

But Constitutional authority is not specifically about what I was talking. I was suggesting that there has been a constant erosion of rights in a hierarchical fashion with the federal government at the top.

And, if you want to get Constitutional, a National ID Card would fall under Congress's jurisdiction w/ regard to interstate trade. =)

They've tried it before (and won). The ID card and a federal DMV would fit in quite nicely with the Marshall Supreme Court decision on the case of Gibbons vs. Ogden. (This is from memory, so anyone with a better knowlege of early US history should [and probably will] correct me).

-awc

-awc

Re:Ya wannt consolidate? Why have 50+ indep. DMVs?

[Fjandr]

Only as relates to commerce.
They have no power to regulate the movement of an individual solely within the boundaries of a single State.

There's a bill out there...

[Anonymous Coward]

to repeal section 656 of the Immigration Reform and Responsibility Act of 1996. I've been looking for section 656 of this bill, and haven't found it yet; I'm not even sure I've got the right bill (H.R. 2202?)

Can anyone with a bit more background in the area shed some light on the subject? (Links would be nice!)

Irony

[Anonymous Coward]

This is quite ironic, given that I've just come from the UK e-commerce bill thread, which is full of US posters lecturing others about civil liberties. I understand that in the US, you already have ID cards in all but name because your driving licences have your photos on them, and you're expected to carry them with you in your car. As a British citizen, not onlyb does my driving licence not have my photo on it, it's also burried at the bottom of a pile of papers somewhere in a cupboard, and hasn't seen daylight for years. If I'm driving a car (which I don't do often) and get stopped by the police, they wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if I was unable to produce it on the spot - hardly anyone would be able to!

Re:Chill dude...

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember how you cook lobsters, you put'em in a pot of cold water on the stove and turn up the heat. The water gets warmer and warmer, but heck, it's just a little warmer, until it's boiling and the lobster is cooked.

Same principle. For whatever reason, right or wrong, good or bad, innocent or evil, another law is passed restricting our rights "just a little", but "we can live with it", after all it's "for the children" or something.

There's a reason they say "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." Though, sometimes it feels like a losing battle.

Re:Requiring SSN on Driver's Licenses

[Anonymous Coward]

"come around to your house once a year to insure you still live there (Japan). Not only that, but they come around to your door demanding that you pay your Television tax (UK and Japan). That would go over real well in the good old US of A"

Tried not paying your cable bill lately and watching what happens? Ofg course, you can get the RF analogue channels in the US for free, but the British TV licence means that they're actually worth watching occasionally.

If you don't want to pay it, then don't get a TV, or get a TV, disable its tuner circuit and plug a VCR into it so that it can only watch prerecorded stuff. The TV licence is just another bill. It never ceases to amaze me that people think this is some kind of privacy issue, but then say nothing about property taxes. At least the TV licence is voluntary - you're always going to need somewhere to live though.

Re:Darn, where did I put that URL...

[Anonymous Coward]

The bars that delimit the left and right and middle (thus the number is not 666, it's like 6xxxx6xxxx6). Also the two thin lines only denote a 6 on the left half of the barcode. The codes are reversed, or something, on the right side.
Besides, the 6's in a barcode do not denote "the number of a man." Go figure.
Oh yeah, and the Bible is mythology.

Re:Illegal Laws

[Anonymous Coward]

Congress is only one branch of government. If the law is unconstitutional, the courts can make them useless.
Check. Balance.

Re:Fishnet approach to law enforcement

[Anonymous Coward]

If it is "LEGITIMATE" and "PRIVATE" thus, the guv'ment has no goddamn business in it! Your statements seem to say that you think the U.S Government has a people-mandated right to just look in on its citizens for any reason it wants to. This may appear innocent but it could be abused in a variety of ways. Besides, if a SS# and driver's license is just about a national ID, then why the hell should be need another?

Respectfully,
Kevin Christie
kwchri@maila.wm.edu

Re:Chill dude...

[Anonymous Coward]

What if I don't want to HAVE TO carry a card around?

Re:Americans ....

[Anonymous Coward]

Identity theft.

It's a good idea to get a copy of your credit report every so often just to check that isn't happening to you.

Re:Sounds scary, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe it was Benjamin Franklin who is attributed to saying "Those who would gladly sacrifice freedom for security recieve and deserve neither."

So put your money where your mouth is: the next time you want to fly somewhere, run through the security checkpoint exercising your First Amendment right to scream "I'VE GOT A BOMB!" at the top of your lungs and your Second Amendment right to carry a shotgun.

Re:SSN is voluntary to begin with !

[Anonymous Coward]

Sounds like it's time to get an International Drivers Permit (for those of you who don't have one yet.)

Aren't those not valid in your country of residence?

Funny, how the article never mentions that there is actually no law that requires a person to have a SSN. (yes, you CAN work, drive, live, etc, without one.)

I always argue when I'm asked for my SSN. To get a drivers license, I was required not only to give my SSN, but to show them proof of what it is. Both the power and phone companies required it. Every employer I've ever had required it. Both high schools required it, as did my university. All banks require it. By "required", I mean that despite my insistance that I don't want to give it to them, they said that they would not deal with me unless I did.

Re:Great idea!

[Anonymous Coward]

hmm,
I just made it possible to REMOVE your SSN from your drivers license in the last year.

It's coming!

[Anonymous Coward]

we sit

we debate

converse

tolerate

we're long suffering

we're intellectual

the simple minded men have already grabbed their guns...

I'm going to get simple minded now

When one pens the simple minded animal it strikes out for its survival

"Natedawg.... dawg.... they're coming!" "I know. Jesus said head for the hills. The intelligent devils should do the same." Ompages.com: cause it's on...

Re:Great idea!

[Anonymous Coward]

In the words of the great Dr. Drew:
This guy's an a$$hole!

Re:Great idea!?????

[Anonymous Coward]

All i can say is turn off the TV, you
have been brain-washed extra crispy.
did you ever think of geting privacy BACK?
Woah, it bogles you mind! better turn on the TV
and see what Dan Rather says about this!

Re:Great idea!?????

[Anonymous Coward]

I think _somebody_ has just a _little_ to much
free time.

Re:Great idea!?????

[Anonymous Coward]

Live free of die.

Re:Fishnet approach to law enforcement

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahhhh... but here's where I disagree. There is no EVIL GOV'T CONSPIRACY (tm) out to watch our every move (except for Reno and Louis Freeh - Freeh would LOVE it if every house in the US had a video camera and wiretap in it), but they would out of politics. Like supporting internet censorship bills so they would SEEM like they care for the children ("Somebody PLEEEESE think of the children!") and garner more votes. Or banning valuable biological research that may involve cloning because the ill-informed public has some science-fiction idea of what it is and they will get votes by becoming the "moral" voice of the people.

No, I do NOT trust our elected officals, but not because of evil or some bizarre conspiracy, but because of greed, laziness, and stupidity.

It may be extremely foolish and almost impossible for the gov't to implement some sort of ID-spy agenda on the US public, but my probelm is the PRINCIPLE of the thing. I dislike the PRINCIPLE of a nat'l ID, even if there is a defacto id through credit cards/licences/etc.

You may trust the US federal governemnt, and that is how people SHOULD feel and how ideally government SHOULD operate, just like the way Communism SHOULD work - in the real world, it just won't happen. The day I trust Capitol Hill and the White House fully is the day I admit that we'd all be better of with every computer a standard Windows machine.

Respectfully,
Kevin Christie
kwchri@maila.wm.edu

Illegal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps it SHOULD be monitored then if it is illegal. What if your neighbor gets fucked up on your lawn while mowing your grass? He goes to sue you and you say he was trespassing? Does worker's comp pay for that? Always hire professional landscapers to mow your lawn or have your children do it. ;-)

Re:ahem ... paranoia all about

[Anonymous Coward]

The bible is fiction but the passages being referenced are more topical for this discussion than the beloved 1984 references that keep coming up. It is just as good a vision of the future as any other sci-fi.

Re:SSN is voluntary to begin with !

[Anonymous Coward]

Your kids can not be used at tax deductions if they do not have SNNs

Re:Big brother comes to life (in the UK)

[Anonymous Coward]

And tell me:

Why do your citizens feel compelled to leave bombs everywhere?

Re:SSN woes

[Anonymous Coward]

I just don't understand the paranoia that some people have about giving out their social security number...

It's not the number itself, it's the potential ease with which all the other details of your life can be linked TO that number.

The US government, particularly the FBI, has been known to follow, wiretap, and target for harrassment people who simply believed that some of what the government was doing is wrong. Do you want your entire life history to be accessable to any government minion who happens along? Do you honestly expect that when the minion scans your ID card, and up pops the fact that you belong to an organization that she happens to hate, that her "professionalism" will keep her from screwing you over if she can? Get real.

Knowledge is power, and the government has real big guns. They don't need to know everything about everyone... but they want to anyway. That's what people are paranoid about.

Give me your SS # and I'll take your identity

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone uses the SS number to index their databases. Your name and your SS number is all I need to get detailed credit info on you, your traffic history, your police history and probably your medical history too. Everything I would need to BECOME you, for all intents and purposes.

With each step the government takes to try to index and control everyone, they make it more likely that the only way you will be able to guarantee your privacy is to hack the system, and there WILL be people who can hack the system. What a drag it would be to get pulled over on for a traffic violation and be arrested because some terrorist stole your identity and was travelling on it. What a drag it would be to apply for a loan for that dream house or a car and be denied because the woman you were dating in the tax offices got pissed when you broke up with her and put a bunch of nasty stuff in your credit history.

As government tracking gets more complex, it becomes more and more likely that people will believe the computer even if it's obviously wrong. If the data in the computer is in error, it will be your responsibility to prove it wrong. There is no "Innocent until proven guilty" here. Get a copy of "Brazil" and watch it because that's where our government is taking us.

Re:I don't want my fingerprints on my license!

[kju]

Your fingerprints are at home? How do you do that? Did you cut your fingers from your hand?

Can it be that you are confusing the fingerprints of cryptosystems (like PGP) and your real fingerprints of your fingers?

Re:Requiring SSN on Driver's Licenses

[Analog]

Reminds me of an interview I saw with a law professor during the whole Lewinski thing. The reviewer pointed out that it's illegal to release any grand jury testimony to the general public, as congress had done with Clinton's.

The law professor stated that as congress had passed the law, they could make an exception to it any time they wanted. If that don't send shivers down your spine...

Re:great

[Riktov]

You have some sort of state-issued ID card, though, don't you? Same thing. Driver's licence == Identification.

Or so we assume. A few years ago in Washington state some local banks said they would stop accepting state DMV-issued identification cards as valid ID. Only actual driver's licenses were acceptable. Apparently they thought that anyone who doesn't drive a car (such as myself at the time) was automatically less trustworthy. Even though it's possible to get a driver's licence which is designated as "invalid for identification". (We don't know who you really are, but sure, you can drive...) Whereas a non-license ID card requires positive proof of identity (passport, birth cert., etc.) to obtain.

Fortunately, people (many senior citizens, for example) opposed the idea, and the banks dropped it.

BTW, I don't think the DMV has your fingerprint. I know I never gave them mine.

Re:Why I want a National ID card.

[Riktov]

Bah. It's already here.

Just give people a little financial incentive and they'll be lining up to get national - no, INTERnational - ID cards. Multiple ones, in fact.

Because we already have such a thing. No single number, but trackable nonetheless. Without it, you can't "live a normal life and do the everyday things most Americans take for granted", as the Wired article says. And with far more intrusive and pernicious uses and abuses available to those who issue them, who are less accountable and more power-hungry than the goverment could ever be.

It's called a credit card.

Imposed rights??

[Riktov]

> it should be a privilege that one elects to
> exercise, not a 'right' that is imposed by the
> system.

A privilege is something you must earn, which allows you to voluntarily do something. Driving is a privilege (not a right, as many Americans might think!)

A right is something which you innately have, which allows you to voluntarily do something.
Voting is a right.

A responsibility/obligation is something which is imposed on you (either voluntarily or involuntarily) which requires you to do something even if you don't want to. Obeying the law is a responsibility.

Rights can't be imposed. Obligations can't be waived.

The End?

[riffraff]

This is just one more step toward requiring us to have the number 666 stamped on our foreheads and not allowing us to buy food without it.

I for one am totally against this, and will refuse it.

If I am not allowed to board an airplane without one, I guess I will end up having to drive cross-country.

Re:The End?

[Jimhotep]

Texas has been testing a system to
control food purchases for a couple
of years now.

The funny part of the system? It
goes down for days sometimes. I guess
this will bring the fear of computer
crashes to everybody.

Re:Immigration, etc.

[Ian Bicking]

There are a finite number of jobs in America. Jobs are a resource.

Those Mexicans would have been employed by the US one way or another. They can be employed in Mexico or the US, but the products always end up this side of the border eventually.

Now, the question is: do we employ them in this country or another country? If they are employed in this country people will feel a certain duty to let them live half-way decently -- not terribly well (proposition 187), but with some basics. But if they live in Mexico they can be payed little, die young, pollute their lands, have their unions busted and be put on blacklists, and then get roughed up just for trying to get someplace better.

Obviously there are those who want to keep them in Mexico, keep the living standard high by exporting our slums. But it's shameful, undefensible, immoral. People use bullshit economics to defend it, but that's all it is. Half the time they don't even bother to make up real economic theories. Neoliberalism, the IMF, NAFTA, the new world order...

Isn't there something wrong about a world that can make more and do more than ever before, yet most of the people are living worse than ever?

Yeah, it's a shame that people are starving and dying. But we can't save everyone, nor should we try. Coddling the weak produces more weak.

That quote is probably more of a condemnation of your ideas than anything I could say. It's cruel, patronizing, and ignorant all at once.

Privacy? What kind?

[mackga]

Lesse:

mortage: required credit check, employment check and maybe an anal probe or two.

credit card(s) credit check

home equity loan: credit/employment check, one anal probe.

leased car: credit check, employment check

monthly bills: check sent w/ bank name and acct number + home addy and phone

driver's license: photo id - hey, I still look like the picture!!! - finger print.

Lord knows where all this info is stored and who has access to it. Fer example. At the time I had enough equity in my house to get the equity loan, I started magically receiving boatloads of junk mail from people and orgs I had never heard of offering me up to 50K. Now, was that just coincidence? I don't think so. So, right now, this very moment, there is so much info on me out there that I almost feel like I'm on a billboard somewhere w/ all my financial vitals, work history, education and marital status listed right next to my blown-up driver's lic. pic. Maybe I'll just go ahead and get that barcode tatto.

Re:Before the privacy adovacates get medieval on t

[Danse]

Maybe the sponsor wants to make employing people without a social security number illegal?

Isn't it already illegal? Don't you have to show your social security card when you fill out a W-4 or I-9? Since they tax your income, they need your SSN. Seems like you shouldn't be able to have any job other than possibly mowing yards or a lemonade stand without having a SSN, at least not legally.

Re:Americans ....

[Danse]

The problem here in America is that the government no longer represents the poeple. It just intends to control them. Unfortunately, with the massive amounts of media avialable to people today, they don't seem to have the attention span to think about anything so mundane as what's happening in Congress. Why watch CSPAN when they can just hit the clicker and watch David Hasselhoff and Pam Anderson running in slow motion down the beach?

The problem isn't that Americans care about things that they shouldn't care about... it's that they don't care about things that they should care about. You seem to think that it doesn't matter if some government worker can punch your SSN into a computer and find out what you had for breakfast, what videos you rent, where you go on vacations, what you purchase with your credit cards, what websites you frequent, what your political beliefs are, etc. I say it's none of their damn business! Why do they need this info? Why should they be allowed to have it or use it? Who will own the info? Will the government sell it to anyone with the cash to buy? Do enough people in this country still have the mental capacity to oppose this with enough unity and vehemence to keep the government from doing what they damn well please whether we like it or not?

Those are my questions. Anyone have the answers?

Maybe someday we'll realize that career politicians are a bad idea.

Re:Americans ....

[Danse]

It's not just the president.. it's the vast majority of people in office.

I can see it now...

[mholve]

"Sorry officer, I was standing too close to a magnetic field."

"I forgot to change the batteries."

"Wouldn't you know it, WindowsID crashed."

*Do not fold, spindle or mutilate*

Re:I can see it now...

[Ares]

During the previous go-round of driver's license redesigns here in Minnesota, the DPS (Dept. of Public Safety) felt it necessary to place magnetic stripes on the card. My first task upon receiving it: Bulk Eraser. I figure if a cop wants to get information about me, I'm not going to help him/her. He/she can at least take the donut out of the other hand first.

"Smart" ID cards: I'll probably whip me up a small AC voltage amplifier to fry out any chip contained therein.

Before the privacy adovacates get medieval on this

[Masem]

READ THE ARTICLE

The senator that wants to introduce this is aiming to use it to curb illegal immigration. Based on his comments, I doubt that he was aware of privacy concerns at the time.

Also be aware that everyone's favorite organization, the ACLU, is already all over this, warning of its privacy violations for trying to something as 'bad' as illegal immigration.

Re:Before the privacy adovacates get medieval on t

[copito]

You don't need an SSN, just evidence of identity and work authorization and a Taxpayer ID Number (which any person can get including illegal aliens apparently). In fact the SSA will no longer give out SSN's to legal non-resident aliens.
--

Re:Great idea!?????

[Rational]

Bah. I've been carrying gov. ID since I was fifteen. Except for Britain, most everybody does in Europe. It's no big deal, get used to it.

Besides, the drivers license is pretty much the same thing...

Yes, you should.

[Derek Pomery]

It was fairly obvious as a satirical reference.
queen VALVOLENE?

Do you think Erisians and Slackers are SERIOUS?

Re:Great idea!?????

[Gregg M]

It really isn't that far from what we have now, when you think about it. How many times have you had to give your social security number or other personal information to get a job. Have you bought anything from Radio Shack lately?

We really don't have all that much privacy to lose.

If you give out your SS number to Radio Shack you deserve the Identity rape you are about to suffer.

PS If they do rape you... just lay back and relax and enjoy it! =0

Ouch!

[Eric E. Coe]

Iv'e heard of this, sounds painful.
--

Re:Ouch!

[Ares]

Agreed. But I'd gladly endure it if it meant that me and about 4 million other people shared the same set of unidentifiable fingerprints.

Tennessee forbids SSN!

[Roast Beef]

Tennessee (which I admit is a backwards state) just passed an amazingly good law. As of January 2000 we won't have our SSN's on our driver's licenses. Of course, I guess this national ID would override our state law and void one of the best laws I've seen come out of our legislature...

Quick note to all the Texans out there....

[JimBobJoe]

There is a new group that has formed to oppose mandatory SSN and fingerprint collection in order to obtain a Texas driver's license. It seems like their interest is a class action lawsuit. If you want information see their web site at http://38.156.42.7 (no domain name yet) or write to get on the mailing list: bonnieblue@iname.com

humorous notes concerning Ohio and the SSN

[JimBobJoe]

Good work up there with Toledo Edison. Here in Columbus, American Electric Power (AEP) gave me no problems, but it was hard working with Columbia Gas and Ameritech, in particular the latter, they get really annoyed with me when I complain about SSN collection.

The Ohio law which allows a person to remove their SSN from their driver's licenses came up one or two years ago, and really, it is just a courtesy as opposed to anything of consequence. They still are collecting them, and using them for the strangest of purposes.

At any rate, the real reason for its existence is The Akron Beacon Journal vs. the City of Akron. In that case, in 1994, the Ohio Supreme Court ruled that government organizations in Ohio which disseminate SSN's may be held liable for damages as a result. (We don't have the sovereign immunity concept here in Ohio.) That's why that law was made, that's why our tax returns this year didn't have the SSN's in bold on the return label, and there are some other changes being made around the state as a result.

My privacy organization here at Ohio State (http://www.osu.edu/students/privacy) has figured out that this court case is our biggest friend in getting the university to change their policies. If any Buckeyes out there are interested, my privacy organization is going to be become a full organization in Ohio.

fingerprinting states...

[JimBobJoe]

Colorado, Texas, Georgia and I believe Hawaii are the only fingerprinting states. Alabama tried to bring those laws in, and failed. California I believe used to have them, and dumped them in 1996.

At http://38.156.42.7 you can find info on opposition to fingerprinting in Texas. At http://www.atlantainfoguide.com/repeal/ you can find information on work going on in Georgia concerning repealing of the fingerprinting laws. There are about four or five bills being considered right now in the Georgia legislature, I am under the impression that the opposition is strongest there, and it is most likely the first state to stop collection.

oh, and the exact reference of the laws

[JimBobJoe]

http://www.networkusa.org/fingerprint/page2/fp-104 -208-immigration.html

I would post them, but they are on the long side.

fingerprinting states

[JimBobJoe]

According to http://www.networkusa.org/fingerprint/page4/fp-04- page4-winners-losers.html

The current fingerprinting states are:

California
Colorado
Georgia
Hawaii
Texas
(possible) West Virginia

At http://38.156.42.7 you can find information on opposition to fingerprinting in Texas. At http://www.atlantainfoguide.com/repeal/ you can find information on opposition to fingerprinting in Georgia.

How about a better idea?

[JimBobJoe]

In my home state, Ohio, it is law that a person has to have car insurance. Well, if the insurance company is willing to insure someone, that means that they are saying that they are at least somewhat competent to drive. If that's the case, why do we even have driver's licenses? Let the insurance companies give out the "licenses", and the license plates. Don't have a current expiration sticker? Your insurance must have run out.

The insurance companies can run us through a battery of tests if they like in order to figure out whether we can handle insurance or not. If the insurance companies become a little weird, we can always regulate them...far easier for a government to regulate someone else than it is for a government to regulate itself.

avoiding SSN use at the college level

[JimBobJoe]

Usually you can avoid a lot of SSN use. First, at least at OSU, if you don't get financial aid, and don't work for the university, you can avoid using the SSN completely. Next, at least here, it is against university policy for professors/ta's to request SSN's on homework, tests, exams, to post them outside of their offices for grade purposes, and they are not on the ID cards. Nevertheless, many of those things occur, and it takes vigilance to keep them at a minimum. Hopefully, soon, professors and ta's will no longer even be given their students SSN's, because, well, that is completely assinine.

childhood fingerprinting

[JimBobJoe]

> Some of that is useful. I had my finger prints taken as a child for help in a missing persons case.

Actually, I wrote an articleon that subject.

To the contrary, I disagree. I have not heard of a single instance where it has been found useful, and, as I point out, it was just part of some strange scare at the time period. It is rarely done anymore.

dependents without SSN's...

[JimBobJoe]

Actually yes they can, but you have to pay a $5 fine, and show proof of their existence.

for anyone looking for the text of the laws

[JimBobJoe]

They are available here.

Re:Woe to you, oh Earth and sea

[bjb]

You rock. Thank you for knowing what I meant in my reference to the movie Naked. For those who never saw it, it's essentially an onslaught of dialogue by a degenerate who reads a lot (pseudo-intellectual?). Highly recommended if you're not easially offended.

Tatty-bye-bye, Bri!
--

Woe to you, oh Earth and sea

[bjb]

"..and upon each man will bear the mark of the beast.."

-- or something like that.. see: bible

"..the mark! They are going to put an ID on each persons' hand.."

-- or something like that.. see: Naked (movie)

"The mark is on everything.. the UPC symbol! Doesn't the bible say something that without the mark people won't be able to buy, sell or trade? It's the UPC symbol!"

-- or something like that.. see: not sure where that came from

"How could they steal your identity?"

-- or something like that... See: The Net

"Never give out any information"

-- or something like that... See: mama

"First!!!"

-- or something like that... See: Anonymous Coward

--

Re:Woe to you, oh Earth and sea

[RenQuanta]

"..and upon each man will bear the mark of the beast.."

There may be another reference to it, but here's a more specific quote:

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich
and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in
their right hand, or in their foreheads:

And that no man might buy or sell, save that he
had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the
number of his name

Revelations 13:16 & 13:17

Re:Woe to you, oh Earth and sea

[ThePlague]

The mark is on everything.. the UPC symbol! Doesn't the bible say something that without the mark people won't be able to buy, sell or trade? It's the UPC symbol!

I doubt if it's the original source, but I read something very similar in Al Franken's Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot.

Re:Woe to you, oh Earth and sea

[CroJo]

"Did you ever get the feeling that you're being followed?

Are you not familiar with the Book of Revelations of St. John, the final book of the Bible
prophesying the apocalypse? It forced everyone to receive a mark on his right hand, or on his forehead, so that no one shall be able to buy, or sell, unless he has the mark, which is the name of the Beast, or the number of his name, and the number of the Beast is '666'. What can such a specific prophecy mean? What is the mark? Well, the mark is the barcode, the ubiquitous barcode that you'll find on every ...[product]... and every barcode is divided into two parts by three markers, and those three markers are always represented by the number '6666'. Now, what does it say, no one shall be able to buy, or sell, without that mark! And now, what they're planning to do in order to eradicate all credit card fraud and in order to precipitate a totally cashless society, what they're planning to do, what they've already tested on the american troops, they're going to subcutaneously laser tattoo that mark onto your right hand, or onto your forehead, they're going to replace plastic with flesh! Fact!"

Thanks to the Orb!

Re:Woe to you, oh Earth and sea

[fgc]

Each man shall bear the mark of the beast.....
.... And the number of the beast is six hundred and sixty-six.
Which, as we all know, is a barcode

Hello future

Re:Chill dude...

[Malor]

It provides a gripping point for the tool to be applied.

Re:Great idea!?????

[db]

This kind of stuff has been talked about through history -- its so Orwellian its scary. This kind of stuff is even talked about in the Bible (mark of the beast?) when telling what to expect regarding the end of civiliation.

Dont call me religious or anything -- its just something to think about ;)

--
Dave Brooks (db@amorphous.org)
http://www.amorphous.org

SSN and the private sector

[David E. Smith]

Social(ist) (in)Security Numbers are, officially, not supposed to be used for much beyond tax identification, and provision of SS benefits.

Not that anyone cares, of course. The government already has these numbers anyway, so that's not an issue. The real danger comes from the private sector.

Try to open a bank account anywhere in the States without one. Try to go to any school, even a private school or a high school. Try to work, well, anywhere.

Good luck.

Granted, this is hideously bad law. Wretechedly so. Fingerprints, SSN, DNA, and so on don't belong on your ID (usually). But there are far worse spectres than Big Brother.

Re:SSN and the private sector

[kabloie]

Interest at banks is taxed, that's why they
say they need it. As far as schools, yeah my
school ID was my SSN. I knew a guy who, given
the option, picked a different number. That
haunted him for years, with people in the
administration CONSTANTLY assuming his SSN was
his ID number. Completely annoying.

-kabloie

Re:SSN and the private sector

[Col. Klink (retired)]

> ...officially, not supposed to be used for much beyond tax...

People keep saying this like it came down from God or something. There's nothing in the Bill of Rights to forbid use of SSNs. It was Congress that made up that rule and, when expedient, Congress will revoke it.

Re:SSN and the private sector

[LordBhaal]

Well, I got me a bank account, and I don't have a SSN, but then I'm also a Foreign National, so that helps.

But this whole thing is rather scary. Sure there's a couple of good reasons for all this information to be stored, collated, sorted and crunched, say your body gets mugged, killed, and dropped somewhere in a nice vat of maggots, only your teeth survive, just run your teeth-prints past their big-ol database, and wallah!, that's who you are.

But there's so many more reasons why all this data shouldn't be collected, mainly because we're giving up rights to our identities. Once we give over that information, do we have any way of checking or limiting what's being done with it?

Reminds me of the whole Australia Card fiasco, glad that died. (it later resurfaced, but was much less public, so no-one stopped it, alas)

Question is, what happens when someone patents your DNA sequence? Are they going to charge you with copyright violation for having kids?

Now, why do we put up with stuff like this? Why don't we take charge of our own lives? If only I could answer those questions.

Re:SSN and the private sector

[jauren]

The whole point of doing this to reduce illegal workers is kind of a moot point: employers who don't require background checks now won't require background checks with the new cards.

How can you say that you lose your identity when someone can tell, with little room to doubt, that you are who you say you are? Is your identity something which can only be defined by your ability to lie about who you are?

As far as the legalities go, something like this would be a good thing for security, and would inevitably result in legislation to limit what can be done with the inforamation aside from simply securely verifying that you are who you say you are. The legislation, given that the country seems to, horribly, be going very conservative (whatever that means; it's too much of a buzzword to carry a very strict meaning), is likely to be fairly strict about just what the information can be used for.
As far as being charged for copyright violation for having kids, so what? The lawsuit will die in court and the prosecution will be shamed by pretty much everyone in the world (says the prophet). Lawsuits like that *are* going to happen; what people have to remember is, they're not likely to be won by the prosecution. The supreme court will not likely allow something so idiodic to stand, and even if they let it, congress will receive so much pressure to change the laws thereafter that it won't matter for very long anyway.
Just try not to forget that the US system of government is fairly stable, and not likely to fall into a 1984ish nightmare simply because it'll be harder for you to lie about who you are.

Barcodes don't have to be visible to you and me.

[neo]

And while we're already waxing paranoid on this subject, is anyone else bothered by the routine foot/fingerprinting of children? What's next? Their SSN/barcode tatooed above their hairline?


No need to put it above the hairline. It's easy enough to add them so they are only visible in infrared and not in the visible spectrum. They could put them right on your forehead.

The technology is already out there.

Why I want a National ID card.

[neo]

My personal opinion is that we already HAVE a national ID card. It's just that most people don't take the time to get one. We call them Passports.

But most people will never get one, so it's clear that we need some form of identification.

It's been a kludge for agencies to use the SSN as a substitute for a national Identity Number. What does access to my Social Security Fund have to do with who I am?

The other seeming rediculous form of Identity is the driver's license. Many states have given up telling people that it's not for ID and offer "walker's licences" so that people who don't drive can have an ID card.

The bottom line is that in a world full of databases, I would rather have a central ID number associated with a PIN or retinal scan or finger print than what we have now. It's horribly easy to steal someone's identity by getting their SSN number. That's what scares me.

So I welcome a national ID number system as long as it's combined with a user controlable confirmation.

John -

Re:Sounds scary, but...

[David Ziegler]

How many of the migrant workers do you think are illegal aliens? I'd bet a *very* significant portion are. Maybe the farmer shouldn't ask questions, but I know that there are people in America, legal citizens, unemployed, who could use work of any kind.

Baby sitters, etc.? They work for individuals, on a very temporary basis. What this is supposed to provide is a method of positively identifying someone, with less possibility of forgery, in my mind. If you hire a baby sitter, you're going to hire someone you know, or someone who comes from a similar situation to yours. You're not going to put an ad in the classifieds asking for a baby sitter. If you did, you'd probably be looking for something a bit more permanent, and in that case, knowing positively who they were would be a very good thing. I would never leave a kid for an extended period to someone I didn't know.

Lawn mowers? Again, I've got to think that that would be the neighborhood kid, not someone you actively search for. If you are searching for someone, it's probably going to be the neighborhood kid that you find, again someone you would know.

Wood carvers? Self-employed. If you're looking to buy a wood carving from someone, no, you don't need to know who they are.

I think you have to look at this as it's intended. For business/government, where positive identification without possibility of forgery is important. I don't think it's a bad idea.

-David Ziegler
-dziegler@hotmail.com

Sounds scary, but...

[David Ziegler]

According to the article, Lamar smith is "doggedly opposed to illegal immigration." Before we assume that he's out to be Big Brother, you've gotta wonder if he knows the possible implications here. It's a worrisome idea to most, I'm sure, but I don't know it's all that bad.

Having your social security number is not really a big deal. Where I live, my SSN is printed right on my driver's license. Having my fingerprint encoded on it, yes, that might be weird. However, I've really got to think that anything like this might not really be all that bad. What could possibly lead to more security would certainly not be a bad thing, and having a license which would be much more difficult to forge would be good. I've seen friends with fake licenses - certainly not anything professional, but what they did with an inkjet printer is amazing - you'd never know with a casual glance at one of these that they weren't real.

I especially loved the part from the ACLU... "We don't need a national ID card to be the legacy of efforts to keep undocumented people from working." Maybe I'm ignorant, but who's undocumented? I can't think of a circumstance where you would be legally in this country and working and not be documented. It seems impossible.

Smith at first strikes me as somewhat naive - not realizing what a privacy debate he's sparking - but before he gets flamed to death, he might have a good idea. He might not be going at it right, but it's not a bad idea. And really, if you're that worried about the government knowing your personal information, just think about what they can do without you knowing it...

-David Ziegler
-dziegler@hotmail.com

Re:Sounds scary, but...

[afeinberg]

It seems to me that people are still under the impression that they have privacy. There is none. The government already has your personal information. It is an illusion that they can't get to it without a warrant. Having you carry it with you is probably not so bad an idea. Besides, the SSN can't be used for anything but tax and social security purposes. The fingerprint thing scares me, but hey, if we ever use biometric authentication for things (fingerprints, retinal scans, voiceprints) they'll be in databases, too. It seems to be a good idea if not misused, but keep in mind that they have all the information now anyway, and you don't know what they can do with it.

Re:Sounds scary, but...

[Col. Klink (retired)]

He hates ALL immigrants, even the legal ones. They keep taking all the good jobs.

This type of xenophobic fascism is not typically associated with people who believe in civil liberties, so aware or not, he won't let the moniker of Big Brother stop him from ridding his country of people who are different from him.

Re:Sounds scary, but...

[ykaterina]

"Maybe I'm ignorant, but who's undocumented? I can't think of a circumstance where you would be legally in this country and working and not be documented. It seems impossible."

the option you're missing here is under-the-table work, which is what MOST aliens do. the point is, most aliens working in this country ALREADY work for people willing to knowingly employ illegal workers and avert the laws, so this super-id isn't going to change that. those people who already hire illegals are not going to suddenly start asking for the super-id when they've never bothered to do the paperwork before now!

nice idea, mr. congressman, but i think you've missed the point. why not just spend the money on a few extra immigration agents??

Re:Sounds scary, but...

[D3]

First of all, there are pleanty of migrant workers all over the U.S. that help farmers harvest, etc. The farmer pays cash and doesn't ask questions. Where the workers come from, live, etc. are undocumented. Also, baby sitters, people that mow lawns, carve wood, etc. can all work undocumented. Do you think the 12 year old down the street reports her taxable income to the feds like she/he is supposed to?

Second, I believe it was Benjamin Franklin who is attributed to saying "Those who would gladly sacrifice freedom for security recieve and deserve neither." Do we need ID everywhere we go in this country to be considered good and legal citizens? This is what Hitler did in Nazi Germany not too long ago.

Re:Sounds scary, but...

[Stonehand]

I gotta wonder how the verification would occur. While some business operators are undoubtably capable of picking out forged licenses today, having seen many, how would they verify SSN or fingerprints? The only way I know of that would work -- contact the Gov't, and the Gov't maintains a database for comparison. That implies that such a database would be implemented.

That also means that they'd have the ability to track who, where, when and what...

*Ugh*

Re:I don't want my fingerprints on my license!

[Ares]

Actually, given sufficient time and sandpaper, you can remove your fingerprints such that they will never return. The "finger-dust" could well be left at home. With legislation like this, I'll be quick to find my sandpaper before my license comes up for renewal in three years.

Great way to frame someone

[LarrySmith]

You know, it occurs to me that a genetic
algorithm could very likely generate a
plausible fingerprint that would map to
almost any id.

Re:Requiring SSN on Driver's Licenses

[Psiren]

Its funny, but this kinda of thing doesn't happen as much in countries with a lower crime rate. I'm not saying its the answer, or the sole reason for this kind of thing, but it is certainly a factor.

Rant.

[nosilA]

The biggest difference now is that the number *and* fingerprints must be readable by LEA's and by airports, possibly some retail stores, border patrols, employers, schoosl, landlords, anyone who needs to prove you're a legal US resident for whatever reason.

Very few states require SSN's visibly anymore, although not all states inform you of the right to chooses.

Legally a state (or any other entity) can not require you to divulge your SSN.

Imagine a world where you can go to a computer store and they have the capability to check if you stole 15 cents worth of candy when you were 6.

Or more importantly, a world where just about everyone has access to everyone else's SSN's, so Tax Fraud and Credit Theft become trivial.

We already have precious little privacy and every little bit we give away takes us one step closer to 1984. We cannot simply give up just because we've already lost so much.

And we haven't lost much. It's incredibly easy in this country to invent a person. The US army thinks that a name invented to funnel junk mail by a friend of mine was a high school senior who might be interested in enlisting a few years ago.

Computing and data resources are getting to where that sort of mistake won't be possible anymore soon. That is precisely why it's becoming Orwellian.

-Alison (I'm in a paranoid mood this week anyway)

Re:Requiring SSN on Driver's Licenses

[nosilA]

The law does not take effect until this October, and even then the SSN does not have to be visible, it can be electronically encoded. Currently VA licenses (at least mine which expires this october) don't have any bar code or magnetic stripe on it, but that will obviously change.

(from the original law)
(ii) Social security number.--Except as provided in
subparagraph (B), the license or document shall contain a
social security account number that can be read visually or
by electronic means.

The DOT does not want SSN's to be required, the ACLU doesn't want SSN's to be required, and Congress 30 years ago didn't want SSN's to be required. Unfortunately all we need is 274 + 51 + 1 people to want it and there's nothing we can do until next November.

It is illegal for *you* to use your SSN as ID, so just refuse on the basis that the laws are contradictory.

-yeah, I'm tired too DeathB... I woke up earlier than you!

Re:The *require* SSNs to be on the card?

[eponymous cohort]

When my wife and I moved to MA, they made the driver license # the same as the SSN, so I don't really have the option of removing my SSN from the card. ;)

How long will people put up with this shit.

[BrookHarty]

Im tired of new laws, new regulations, and new taxes. I dont like it, Dont fuck with me.

SSN not required on MA license

[stepheneb]

You have to ask for your SSN not to be used, they'll give you another number starting with "S".

I remember a conspiricist group giving a presentation at my high school in 1974 about SSNs and drivers licenses. They told me how to get my SSN off my drivers license and I did it then.

Re:Great idea! Mark of the Beast

[PD]

Check out Dodd 69:13,

"And in what the false prophets called the last days, nether peoples reviled the primary key as a mark of the normalization. But as it was in the beginning, before the first form, Dodd looked out across creation and announced the database to be good, because it was pleasing to him.

Re:Great idea!?????

[Quarm]

It won't be that much different? Well sure, it's just like putting bar codes on your forehead. Geez us! Get a frickin' clue. And how exactly is this going to stop illegal immigration? People are still going to get in the country. And, since this stuff will most likely be digital or magnetic. All you have to say is that the little tiny IC's broke, or that you put your license under the magnet on your fridge. And let's not forget about the issue of privacy. If this did go through, it's quite possible that they will have a standard "reader" for the card, and someone could get a hold of it, and get a hold of your card, thus getting access to your personal information.

That's just my two cents.

./brm

Lamar Smith is a very confused man

[Quarm]

And this is why:

First of all, read what he has to say about these National ID Cards:

"Please be alert to misinformation regarding section 656(b) of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996, a law passed by overwhelming majorities in both houses of Congress. Some claim that section 656(b) creates a "national ID card" and attempt to link the provision with various far-fetched conspiracies involving the federal government. I do not support a national ID card and don't know anyone who does. I do support reasonable measures that prevent aliens from using fraudulent documents to obtain jobs and government benefits."

Then take a look at his web page's title on it.

"National ID Card? Not!"

He sounds very lost, first he wants it, then he says he doesn't support it. Then he wants to keep out illegal aliens, blah blah blah. The FBI says Raphael Ramirez had 4 SSN's, blah blah, this will help prevent that. Blah blah. How man miniorities are serial killers? Really? Hardly any. Sure immigrants commit crimes, but serial killers? That's left for the whites. Sheesh.

You can see Lamar Smith's page at http://www.house.gov/lamarsmith/idcardhtm.htm

./brm

Re:Lamar Smith is a very confused man

[Col. Klink (retired)]

Like he's just gonna come out and admit that he's opposed to the Bill of Rights...

"It's not a National ID Card... it just has all the features of one..."

Re:Lamar Smith is a very confused man

[Stonehand]

* Where does race come into this?
* Bad example. Ramirez was...
- a Mexican illegal immigrant (repeatedly)
*and*
- a serial killer.

Yes, some immigrants do commit crimes, such as crossing without going through INS. 'sides, there are rings which smuggle people in for the primary purpose of either enslaving them for work (indentured servants, basically) or recruiting them into crime (gangs or syndicates). Alternately, some may be trying to escape apprehension in their previous countries of residence.

OTOH, people who meet INS requirements and actually bother to qualify, and have paperwork and some degree of accountability, might be expected to be more reliable than those who apparently feel that they're entitled to enter another nation without obeying that nation's laws in the slightest...

Re:ahem ... paranoia all about

[Quarm]

The problem is convenience. Too many people all over the world are willing to give up more and more of their freedom just so things may be a little be easier. Sure, it'd be great to have just ONE card for everything, but I'm not willing to do it. We have hardly any freedom left in America, and I'm doing what I can to keep mine.

./brm

Requiring SSN on Driver's Licenses

[DeathB]

I really doubt that there is a 1996 law requiring SSN's on driver's licenses. Considering how many states started removing it, or giving you the option to remove it around that time, it just wouldn't make sense. Besides, your SSN is never supposed to be used as an ID number outside of tax purposes. ( not that many people follow this, but it is true )

Re:Requiring SSN on Driver's Licenses

[DeathB]

If all of the states are ignoring it, does it really matter?

Re:Requiring SSN on Driver's Licenses

[DeathB]

OK, must remember to have coffee BEFORE posting in the future. What I mean is that it doesn't have to be visible on your license, meaning that any person you show your license to doen't now know your SSN.

Re:Requiring SSN on Driver's Licenses

[Col. Klink (retired)]

> from what I understand, it should be illegal to use the SSN

And who made it illegal? Congress. So if Congress decides that they can now be your national citizen ID, who's to say they can't. If they wanted, they could also require you to give your SSN to bathroom attendants.

Re:Requiring SSN on Driver's Licenses

[Col. Klink (retired)]

The 1996 law has not yet been implemented. It was GOING to be implemented last year, but privacy advocates managed to get it delayed. Not revoked, just delayed. Go back to sleep, Congress said. We won't rape you while you sleep.

Re:Requiring SSN on Driver's Licenses

[Quarters]

Then Virginia must be in violation of this supposed law. You can either use your SSN as your DL # or have them assign a new number. If you choose the latter your SSN does not get printed on your DL anywhere.

Re:Requiring SSN on Driver's Licenses

[Manax]

There is a law, the "Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996". Do a search anywhere on those terms and you'll find a sizeable list of sites, such as:

http://www.fairus.org/03205707.htm or the full text here:

http://www.visalaw.com/docs/IIIRA.html

You are right though, from what I understand, it should be illegal to use the SSN outside of "tax purposes" but I think there are plenty of current violations or at least obvious bending of the rules.

Re:Requiring SSN on Driver's Licenses

[mindkrime]

Oh, it does. It most DEFINITELY does.

What? Do I hear.... A revolution calling?

Re:The *require* SSNs to be on the card?

[StormCrow]

Many states that use your SSN by default as your drivers licence number will issue you an alternate number if you refuse to provide your SSN. You can generally refuse to give your SSN to other orginizations that request them (other than your employer, for obvious reasons). There are laws regarding who is permitted to require SSNs.

Re:Before the privacy adovacates get medieval on t

[Romen]

It seems difficult to believe that he could be totally unaware of privacy concerns, unless he had never thought about that sort of thing in his life. In addition, this bill was voted for by a majority of the members of his subcommitte (at least that's how I read the article) and this was after heavy lobbying by the ACLU, among others. So it seems like they knew, but did not particularily care about privacy concerns.
I wasn't sure exactly what you were saying about the ACLU, but they should not be criticized, least of all on this issue. They very much support our position of protecting privacy.
Finally, I fail to see exactly how this would cut down on legal immigration. It seems to impose no addtional barriers to entry or employment in the United States, and those who legally immigrate should be able to get a card of their own. Maybe the sponsor wants to make employing people without a social security number illegal?

Romen

Oregon doesn't have SSNs on their licenses either

[TrentC]

I was telling my girlfriend about this story, and she said "But our driver's licenses don't have SSNs on them."

I looked; she was right (unless it's encoded in that funky barcode on the back).

Jay (=

Re:Before the privacy adovacates get medieval on t

[Mycroft-X]

"If He's a US Senator and isn't aware of the privacy issues"

Right away your statement logically returns a zero. The man is a Representative, or a Congressman, but NOT a Senator. (Look at the roots of the words...he IS in the House of Representatives, he IS a member of Congress, but he is NOT a member of the Senate. Make sense now?)

Makes one wish people would either read the article, or open it in another window so they can give their short-term memory/poor reading comprehension a rest when they consider themselves to be capable of CONTRIBUTING to a discussion.

If you are going to be argumentative and/or judgemental, at least do it with facts that really exist...

Re:fear and loathing in S.A.

[Edward Teach]

Bullshit! We have laws about immigration for a reason. We cannot be the worlds welfare state. If they want to come to the United States to work then there are procedures to do that. Millions do it every year.

Why don't we worry about making sure our Citizens all have jobs and are fed before we start whining about the Mexicans. They have their own country and if they want a better life, they need to read up on The Sons Of Liberty and then follow their example.

I'm sick and tired of hearing this liberal crap about the poor and downtroden. What we need is better fences!!!

Why go half way?

[Shadarr]

I think they should be putting all this information in a chip/transmitter and implanting it in our bodies. That way you would never lose it, and as an added bonus the police you could use it to track criminals. In fact, you could make little rockets that would home on the signal, so the cops wouldn't even have to get out of thier cars. And rather than pulling people over for speeding, they could just get a reading of your driver's license and mail you the ticket. And when companies wanted to do a background check, it would include where you've gone, what you've bought, and who you were with for as far back as they want to go. The options are limitless!

Using Microsoft software is like having unprotect sex.

Re:Before the privacy adovacates get medieval on t

[Col. Klink (retired)]

Unaware of privacy, or unconcerned?

Note that he is also opposed to LEGAL immigration...

Note also that this is ALREADY a law. Privacy advocates are trying to REPEAL the damn thing, which is infinitely more difficult than blocking it in the first case...

Question: which party will support repealing this law? The top dog Democrat was the guy that signed this bill in the first case. Billy has yet to champion any civil liberties issues, so don't count on the democrats.

That leaves the Republicans. With a slim 6-person majority, there are dozens of 6-man coalitions that can BLOCK anything. Any 6 can block the repeal on a floor vote! Assuming it evens gets to the floor. The head of the committee is against it. Now just ask yourself: What are the chances that there are 5 other Republicans who don't like them damn foreigners?

Ron Paul and a few others had pushed for a scaling back of FinCen thinking that the Anti-Know Your Customer momentum would carry it through. But a little Law and Order briefing from Reno and wham, that was dead.

So yes, privacy advocates, go medieval. Defeating Know Your Customer was just a minor skirmish. The fascists have come back with avengeance.

Re:Illegal SSN use

[Col. Klink (retired)]

Yes, the SSA did limit who could use the SSN. But since that was created by Congress, there's nothing to stop Congress from changing it...

Re:Illegal Laws

[Col. Klink (retired)]

Actually, we just need DC to secede. Wait 'til Congress is in session, or maybe at the State of the Union when they actually show up for "work" (cause the TV is there for that), and then turn the Beltway into a moat and don't let anyone out.

Re:Illegal Laws

[Col. Klink (retired)]

Yes, but how tough will the state politicians be when their citizens aren't allowed on airplanes. The citizens will DEMAND that their privacy by violated.

Re:Illegal SSN use

[Col. Klink (retired)]

Well, the law was not the SSA but rather the Privacy Act of 1974. What it says is that IF they ask you for it, they must provide you with a "Privacy Act Disclosure Notice".

This notice must state the authority that gives them the to ask, and whether or not it is voluntary.

If they want to grant new agencies the authority to ask, they are still free to do so. They do NOT need to amend the Privacy Act, they simply have to tell you what law is violating your privacy.

See http://www.cpsr.or g/cpsr/privacy/ssn/SSN-History.html#PrivacyAct

Re:Great idea!?????

[symbolic]

Agreed. This "one standard ID" will serve as an index key to your entire life - your medical records, purchases, bank transactions, etc. It's a very dangerous proposition.

This is funny - A very similar technique already used to copy the information on the mag stripe on the back of credit cards. This new requirement is not going to accomplish a damn thing...shortly after its introduction, there will be a black market for fake ID cards. And then, aside from a loss of even more of our freedom, what will have been accomplished?

Here's what gets me...all this crypto crap, this national ID card, and ideas like logging the DNA of all newborns (proposed by New York City mayor Rudolph Giuliani) is coming from Republican party! It's abundantly clear that the only legislation they don't like is that which relinquishes control over peoples' private lives. The solution...vote Libertarian.

And what are YOU going to do about it?

[symbolic]

First, come this election, I'm not voting for either of the major parties. They both suck. Second, since Lamar Smith seems to be so intent on affecting the private lives of EVERY American citizen (not just the lives of those who were dumb enough to elect him), I think a nationwide campaign to convince his electorate to vote him out of office would be very appropriate.

Re:Chill dude...

[symbolic]

Because of what it allows, you've lost total control over information about your LIFE, who you are, and what you do. Is this the mark of a FREE society? I don't think so!!!

Don't just yack here - write your congressman

[davebo]

If you don't like this idea - or if you do - don't just sound off here. Tell someone that has the power to fix it - your Congressman/women or Senator. You can even do it via e-mail.

http://www.house.gov/house/MemberWWW.html

or

http://www.senate.gov

BTW - is there a feminine form of Senator?

the quote

[teasea]

First off, the quote is not stupid. Second, ALL liberties are essential. I well remember when many things we accept today would have been viewed with terror, and argued as bad for the precedent alone. "The Slippery Slope" was a well understood concept. It certainly wasn't necessary to define all words longer than two syllables to state something as well understood as this simple and founding concept...unless your point is simply to baffle with bullshit. btw, I'm not that old.

News in the digital age...

[Morendil]

...isn't so different from traditional news, I'm afraid. I found the original article a bit murky - it sidesteps such questions as, how much would it cost to convert all existing driver's licenses to a version with an embedded microchip, for instance, and who would pay for it.

One thing I would expect from online articles about regulatory and legislative issues is links to relevant online documents; a few minutes' searching sufficed to turn up the fact that the "1996 law" alluded to appears to be "23 CFR Part 1331 (State-Issued Driver's Licenses and Comparable Identification Documents)". Having access to the actual texts that the article refers to would be a great first step toward letting individual readers conceive an informed opinion on the issues involved.

A great resource for those who are inquisitive enough to want to see actual texts is FindLaw. (Unfortunately, I can't seem to find the full text of the abovementioned text; either it's not available online, or it's not indexed at FindLaw. If anybody knows where to find an online version, please post ! I should add that I'm not a U.S. citizen - but I'm fascinated, in a quite amateurish and non-lawyerly fashion, with U.S. laws and legal structures.)

Sadly, Slashdot's own spin on this kind of news is no better than Wired's; all we see is the 'juicy' bits extracted from the original article, with a "this is scary" appended. I love Slashdot, but I'm concerned to see you guys give in to sensationalism a bit too often in recent days; IMHO, what digital news is all about is avoiding spin, and letting readers check out the (published) facts.

Re:News in the digital age...

[Fjandr]

Unfortunately, documents of this type can be hard to find unless you have access to a decent law library. However, they do exist, albeit it can take some work to dig to them.
You can find the CFR (Codified Federal Regulations) at the Online Cornell Law Library at http://www4.law.cornell.edu/cfr/
It's searchable by title and section. The Cornell LII is probably one of the best online resources regarding federal law on the internet. The only other source I've found for these hefty federal tomes online is the Government Printing Office at http://www.gpo.gov

I'm actually not a US citizen either, though I am an American national and a sovereign of the State of Oregon. There's legal signifigance in the difference, mainly in that I don't pay federal income taxes and that I am not subject to a single federal law or regulation unless it concerns another State or country. :) If anyone would like more information, contact me at my addy above.

Re:Fishnet approach to law enforcement

[specht]

... and buying beer and getting into bars and
chashing checks and ...

So it's a little more than just the license
to drive. How often do you use your drivers
license for other purposes?

Why is this a bad thing?

[jabber]

Except of course if it's mandatory... Ahem!

Having a singular ID will simply make it easier for the law abiding to not get wrongfully hassled in a difficult situation. After all, if you carry comprehensive identification at all times, then there's no need for background checks, credential verification, proof of credit of employment...

Hell, I'm surprised that they're not considering making this thing implantable. But for all the convenience that such an ID would bring, it should be a privilege that one elects to exercise, not a 'right' that is imposed by the system. I should have the option of choosing to have to sit in the cruiser while they verify identity.

And while we're already waxing paranoid on this subject, is anyone else bothered by the routine foot/fingerprinting of children? What's next? Their SSN/barcode tatooed above their hairline?

Re:I don't want my fingerprints on my license!

[jabber]

I don't want to carry my fingerprints around with me all the time.

Umm, you already do. The only thing that having then [encrypted] in an ID chip wouuld accomplish is prove that the ID you just used to cash that big check is in fact your ID.

It sounds a lot like having a name tag on luggage. Anyone can carry it, but if your name and the name on the case are not the same, the case is probably not yours.

The creepy side is (short of an imperialist fed) that the data will be available via fed comuters, which are only as protected as they are protected. If the fed can get data out, so can someone else. If the fed can modify it (record update) so can someone else. And we wouldn't even know it. Does this sound like The Net yet?

oh and big brother comes to life

[josepha48]

big brother already live in the UK from what I have heard.. there are cameras in many places that are high crime, and citizens are watched.. not big bro comes to the US as we start installing cameras everywhere here, and ID chips.. will they eventually embed them in the children?

Re:SSN is voluntary to begin with !

[Captain_Lou_Albano]

This international driver permit sounds interesting. Does anyone have any info on this?

ft

mistert@dslnet.com

The bible?!

[Sloppy]

Oh geez, all this time, I thought it was just an Iron Maiden verse, and now I find out that it was plagiarized? *sigh*

Stupid Ben Franklin quote

[kaisyain]

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Every time something like this comes up I see this same stupid Ben Franklin quote. Every time the poster completely and absolutely fails to explain why this is an essential liberty or why it is a little temporary safety

To do that you'd have to explain what it is essential in relation to. And you'd have to quantify both little and temporary. Much better to leave it as nifty sounding rhetoric than fill it in with a real argument, I guess

What's more, I thought that our philosophy of natural rights of Men taught that people deserved these things simply because they exist, not because of a philosophy the person espouses. Making liberty and safety contigent on philosophical and political beliefs strikes me as decidedly fascist.

Re:Stupid Ben Franklin quote

[Justin Motion]

>Sorry you couldn't extrapolate all of this on your own from Franklin's quote. Maybe a sprinkling of liberal arts in your education would have helped.

He didn't dare, as it would perminantly cross-reference his ID with the background information, possibly causing problems with his next employer.

Re:Stupid Ben Franklin quote

[laetus]

I consider anonymity an essential liberty in that you, the government, or anyone else for that matter has no right to know who I am or what I am doing unless I am violating the rights of others. It is essential in that I should be able to conduct my private affairs without having to second guess who is watching, for what purpose, or what detriment I might incur given their voyeurism.

For me to have to operate otherwise is to introduce an unnecessary distortion in how I conduct my affairs.

It is little temporary safety in that the given purpose of this crap is to prevent illegal immigration:

little -- in that illegal immigration is not overwhelming this country. If anything, given the current labor shortage in many areas of the country, we could use a bit of extra help.

temporary safety -- in that laws, regulations, etc. already exist which are supposed to prevent this problem, yet people are finding ways around them. And they will with this new card.

Sorry you couldn't extrapolate all of this on your own from Franklin's quote. Maybe a sprinkling of liberal arts in your education would have helped.

ad hominem

[kaisyain]

Ad hominem attacks really don't work very well when you have no clue who I am or what my education is. For all you know I have master's degree in liberal arts. Of course, you probably are assuming that I'm a college aged (or recently graduated) white, male, computer science major.

What's more, when someone makes a claim (such as copying Franklin's quote) I feel it is up to the poster, rather than the reader, to supply the rationalization for why it is appropriate. Otherwise they are shirking their job. I think libertarians call that free riding in other contexts.

Re:ad hominem

[I R A Aggie]

For all you know I have master's degree in liberal arts.

Yes, you certainly act like it. You wait for someone to spoonfeed you the canonical answer.

Now that its been explained elsewhere, do you understand better? I'm waiting for the day, and it is soon approaching, when you're required to provide papers at any time for any reason and G*d help you if you don't have them.

James - never lost your drivers license?

oh well

[kaisyain]

sigh....the poster never explained why the liberty to not have all your information collected in one place is less important than my liberty to not hire blacks or women just because I don't like them. Or why I shouldn't have the liberty to own land in America but also be a sovereign power. Obviously not all liberties are essential. A minority's liberty to equal treatment is more important than my liberty to do whatever the hell I want with the company I own and run. Likewise, you do not have the liberty to sell yourself into slavery, even if it is a purely voluntary transaction.

Many of the things that were argued against for precendent alone currently make up the strongest economy the world has ever seen, which has created more wealth and distributed it more equally than any libertarian scheme. I think you will have a hard time convincing people that giving up those liberties was a bad idea. People aren't being asked to give up civil liberties just 'cause. They are being asked to give them up for something they value. Don't people have the liberty to give up their liberties? Apparently not, according to Franklin...such people don't deserve liberty. Franklin's quote is tantamount to saying that people who choose to make a different tradeoff than me don't deserve to live. Seems to me to be the antithesis to the libertarian live and let live.

If there is a slippery slope we put our first foot on it thousands of years ago. By the logic of the Slippery Slopists we should already all be living in fascist hell. After all, how long have we had a federal income tax, a social security number, a national government?

The existence of a slippery slope has also never been proven, only repeatedly asserted by those who apparently have a tenuous grasp of logic and rhetoric. I guess in your one liberal arts class they failed to mention that the slippery slope argument is a widely known common fallacy of rhetoric. Much like argumentum ex silentio, argumentum ad verecundiam, false dichotomy, reification fallacy, straw man, and post hoc, ergo propter hoc.

The slipperly slope may be a well understood concept, but so is white supremacy. Just because it is well understood doesn't mean it is accurate or valid. By saying this is a slippery slope you are requiring, but not defending, the premise that to accept a specific course of action would be to embrace a general principle that would apply equally well to other, plainly undesirable sorts of action. Hard core Slippery Slopists are like your third grade teacher who wouldn't let you bring your pet turtle to class because that meant she would have to let other people bring their pet elephants to class. The validity of slippery slopism in the civil liberties context has never been proven, much less scientifically investigated. Hell, telepathy has more scientific proof behind in than the existence of a slippery slope in civil liberties. You would think a bunch of engineers would understand the worthlessness of anecdotal evidence.

Finally, when someone asks you define all words longer than two syllables, I don't think saying "I shouldn't have to" is a good defense of your position. It makes it look like you can't even articulate one of your most closely held beliefs. Hardly the way to win others to your side. Of course, most such discussions seem geared more to alienate those who disagree with you rather than actually engage them in any kind of discourse.

Re:Drivers Licences

[Justin Motion]

While that may have been it's orrigional intention, it has expanded to more than that. I don't have a drivers licence, and I had to go get an ID card to use in the place of a drivers licence. It's an ID card, pure and simple...the only official ID's here in BC are a drivers licence, BCID (B.C. Identification), and a passport. When I have to have a chip implanted, I'm going to retire from society, thank you.

Speak softly, and carry a magnet.

Re:Great idea!

[Justin Motion]

Ummm..every american president IS decended from an illegal alien...ask any native american. They really needed better immigration policies back then...

Texas

[Nickbot]

Some time after I got my mag-striped texas ID, the darndest thing happened. A very powerful magnet shomehow came in contact with the strip repeatedly. I hope these microchips are stronger. Especially because when I microwave a burrito, I sometimes drop my ID in there by accident.

Immigration, etc.

[naught]

While well-written and heartfelt, this article seems to ignore some facts about America. I'll point them out briefly so folks don't have to read for 10 minutes to get my point.

1. There are a finite number of jobs in America. Jobs are a resource.

2. Most illegal immigrants do not contribute to the US economy. Most are employed for below minimum wage and do not pay income tax. Yes, they buy food, but food doesn't have an associated sales tax. In this way, through income and sales tax, Americans contribute to out economy.

3. Most illegal immigrants are poor. It is statistical fact that crime is higher among the poor (including immigrants) than the well-off. Crime is at an all-time low in the US, there's no sense in bucking the trend.

4. There are plenty of people in the US to feel sorry for, without going to other countries. Let's solve our own hunger, housing, and employment crises before we import unskilled, poor people to add to the problem. I'm sure a lot of you are thinking 'Not all illegal immigrants are unskilled or poor,' and my response is 'Then, why aren't they legal immigrants?'

The bottom line is this: America needs people who will contribute in a significant way to the country to immigrate. People who are going to use up more resources than they contribute shouldn't be allowed 'in'.

Australia has a great immigration policy. Very strict. It boils down to whether or not the person can give more to the country than they take away.

Yeah, it's a shame that people are starving and dying. But we can't save everyone, nor should we try. Coddling the weak produces more weak.

Enough ranting from me.

--ben

Why the parapnoia?

[naught]

What's the big deal? Yeah, I know all the hype, I've heard all the conspiracy bull, and I know how the tech works, to stem all those arguments.

Why are all you people so afraid? Is the big, bad government coming down to take you away? Do you have lots of things to hide? Uncle Sam can read my mail for all I care, I don't have anything to hide.

When I go to sleep at night I know no one's going to break into my house because there's a police officer down the street. That establishment can be effective because they have information. They use that information to put away the people who'd break into my house.

When I wake up in the morning, I know it won't be to an invading army camped on my lawn, because my country uses my tax money to ensure that we have the best tech, and the best information available. If they want more info about me, mail me the forms, I'll help.

There are certain kinds of privacy we should protect. Every one of them ends when we step out the front door of our house. I don't need to hide. Neither do you.

Personally, if I'm in a car accident, and the emt finds (from his little id reader) that I'm allergic to penicillin right before he injects me, I'll wake up and thank the card that I'm alive. If I don't have to sit and wait on a background check, that's time I could be finishing up that book. If I can get my tax records from an ATM, that's time I save. While we're at it, use RSA and throw a money chip on there, I"ll buy my cereal with the blasted thing.

I've never read, seen, or heard anything, and I've looked REALLY hard, to make me believe that the US is doing anything that they believe is contrary to my interests.

If you're really worried about it, call your representative abd let them know, don't just whine about it.

--ben

Re:Why the parapnoia?

[r055b]

He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither - Ben Franklin - Wake up! There was no crime and the trains ran on time in Berling in 1940! The abuse of power is there, history proves it time and time again. Our founding fathers new this. But those we have elected have been silently taking these away from us.

The REAL Problem?

[naught]

The real problem? What is the real problem? Why are you so scared of Big Brother?

There are two things: Security, and Freedom. Now pick one, because you can't have both.

So what if Uncle Sam knows what kinds of toilet paper you use? How does this information hurt you?

So what if Uncle Sam knows your sexual preference? We're passing laws by the ton making discrimination as bad as a hate crime anyhow.

So what if your picture appears? You're guaranteed no one will be masquerading as you.

Put the conspiracy books back on the shelf and revel in the fact that crime is at an all-time low, the standard of living is up, our economy is rockin', and you are well-enough off to have ready access to a marvel of silicon called a computer. Think ANY of the above would've happened without good intel by the gov? Think again.

If you want to live in a cave, go live in a cave. But don't fear imaginary enemies.

--ben

The *require* SSNs to be on the card?

[vosque]

That's interesting. I had to get my licence redone a few days ago, and I was asked if I wanted to take my SSN off the card.

Then again, it may not be on the card, but in that wierd little UPC-related thingy on the back. Looks dense enough to tell a cop what I had for lunch on the day I got my licence..

Re:The *require* SSNs to be on the card?

[tweek]

Georgia has now given you the option of changing your driver's license number to something other than your SSN. I had it done when I got my license renewed last wyear.

Re:The *require* SSNs to be on the card?

[duckbill]

You do have an option. In fact, the RMV employees should explicitly ask if you want to use your SSN or another number (which they call random).

Re:The *require* SSNs to be on the card?

[rrogers]

I also live in Massachusetts and although the default is to have them use your SSN you can request that they assign you another number. Check out the application form at http://www.state.ma.us/rmv/forms/20142.pdf

It says right near the top: "Do you want a random state assigned number for your license number (instead of your social security number)?"

This application is for both the driving test, and out of state conversions, so you should have had this option when you moved here. I know the option has been there at least since I moved here in August of '95.

Re:The *require* SSNs to be on the card?

[Jose_JX]

Using the cash register scanner at work, the little UPC says (in MA): your SSN or alternate number. The black strip is a magnetic strip, same as on your credit card. It contains 2 lines of data, the top is your license number and the bottom is your birth date and expiration date.

It's the same stuff the front of the card reads! :)

Later,
JoseJX
- Yet another witty quote.

Re:The *require* SSNs to be on the card?

[jiggersplat]

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but in a lot of states, your driver's license number IS your social security number.

Besides, I'm sure if I *really* wanted to I could probably find peoples social security number anyway. We give it out all the time for "identification purposes", which I believe was an issue directly addressed when the gov't instituted the SS program.

Re:The *require* SSNs to be on the card?

[J. Pierpont]

Should your employer have more power than the government?

-awc

Re:The *require* SSNs to be on the card?

[Fjandr]

You can refuse to disclose your SSN to your employer, you just won't get your withholding credited to your SSN account (unless you're aware of how tax law really works and legally aren't required to pay taxes like me, but that's off-topic ;)

SSN woes

[Zach Frey]

Does anyone have a more exact reference to the 1996 law that is going to require states to use SSNs starting in 1999? I'd be very interested in this.

Today, I am the proud posessor of an Ohio driver's license without my SSN. The SSN is optional in Ohio. Also, Michigan uses driver licence numbers that are independant of the SSN. At least for now.

My wife gets a little frustrated with me, because I'm one of those cranks who, from time to time, will make a sticking point about the SSN. Sometimes, all it takes is a simple refusal to give the number, and you discover that it was optional all allong. Sometimes it's tougher than that.

During last year's move to Ohio, we had to sign up for electric service via Toledo Edison, which insisted upon a SSN for activation of service. Their phone people absolutely would not budge on this. Actual conversation transcript:

Me: "So, what you're saying is that my only options are to give you this number, or to sit in the dark and freeze."

Them: (pause) ... "Well, yes, those are your options."

I realize that at this point, this would be where most people cave in to the power of convenience. I decided that it was time to not just get mad, but to get even. So, I looked up the address of the Ohio Public Utilities Commission on the web, called their complaint line, and (wonder of wonders) found that they were incredibly helpful. I explained my situation, was told that "they can't do that to you", and they gave me a number of a manager at Toledo Edison to call, with instructions to call them back if TE gave me any more trouble.

Lo and behold, when I called this office at Toledo Edison, the person on the other end of the line cheerfuly explained that, in fact, they didhave a procedure that allowed one to sign up for electric power without using a SSN, it simply involved showing up in person at a Toledo Edison office. So I did that.

Further dark side, though -- while this person at Edison headquarters was clueful and helpful, she asked at the end of the call if there was anything more I wanted, or if I wanted to speak to any management about this. Fool that I am, I said "sure, I'd love to give a piece of my mind to your management, thanks for asking."

I explained very nicely to this man what had happened up to this point, and suggested that they obviously had a training problem with the operators if they would insist that a procedure doesn't exist when a call to the state PUC proved that it did. Mr. Pointy-Hair decides that the issue isn't the fact that they are operating in violation of their state regulatory agency, but the fact that I would want to do something so inconceivable as to not give my SSN over the phone. At this point I've over my stupid quota for the day, so I remind him that

• I'm the customer here
• Therefore, I'm right
• It is supremely stupid to argue with your customers and to tell them that it's their problem if you're not giving them good service
• Toledo Edision is in violation of the law here
• He owes me a thank you rather than abuse for taking my own time to explain to him the bug in their system
• And it's time to hang up on this bozo, because I doubt it's in my power to give him a clue

Moral: If you're serious about SSN privacy, prepare for some inconvenience, and watch that high blood pressure, it's bad for the health.

You're gonna have to answer to the Coca-Cola company. -- Colonel "Bat" Guano, Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb

Re:SSN woes

[jonathanclark]

I can't help but wonder if you managed to get through college without giving out your SSN. Where I went (U of Texas), practically everything required your SSN. Regisitration, Test, Homework Papers, Telephone Services, etc.

Re:SSN woes

[Spyky]

I'm not particuarly concerned about giving my social security number out, but I know a lot of people who are, including my mother. Virginia passed a law that doesn't require your SSN on your drivers license, and my mom immediately got a new one, I don't care really, so I will leave mine on. My real question is, why be concerned? Sure someone with my SSN can perhaps look up tax records or whatever with my number, but seriously, who cares, so they know how much I make, and if I paid my taxes. Big deal! If you ask how much I ask, ask me in person, I'll tell you. This is not to say I don't care about my privacy, I certainly do. When surfing the web is no longer "anonymous" count me out, I dislike pages that require "free" registrations, but sometimes submit if there service is valuable enough. I just don't understand the paranoia that some people have about giving out their social security number, what about your address, I don't like giving that out either, and anyone who can get information about me based on my SSN can probably find the same information in reverse working from my name and address.

Spyky

Re:bible STORIES

[TheCaptain]

Ok...I am definitly going even further off topic here, but....

You wrote:

keep your faith out of my news

And then you wrote:

Goddess help me seek the truth, but spare me the company of those who've found it.
-Queen Valvolene

And here begins my rant:

Well...with a sig like that it would seem rather hypocritical to tell others to keep all of their faiths out of your news.

As much as I'd like to vent on this subject....I'll shut up now. :)

Yes, folks, I was joking

[Imperator]

I was mixing up a bunch of stuff in the hope it would come out somewhat funny. Not sure it worked.

But I was making a point (sorta). Fingerprints are always going to be with you, short of sandpaper or a knife. ::cringe:: Eventually, I forsee a large database of DNA (not the whole thing, just an MD5-like checksum) which can be easily matched to a DNA test applied in the form of a blood prick that's processed in the polices' forensic labs. There's no way to keep your identity anonymous in such a case: what's needed is to take a strong stance against the very idea of tracking this sort of stuff. And if we don't fight them each and every time they try and degrade our rights, we'll end up hoping that they aren't planning to run their database on NT.

-Imperator

I don't want my fingerprints on my license!

[Imperator]

I don't want my fingerprints on my driver's license! When I get stopped by the police, my fingerprints will be safely at home, encrypted. I don't want to carry my fingerprints around with me all the time.

That's why we need the BSDL (BS Driver's License). Anyone can get one and modify it, so long as they don't try and pass me.

-Imperator

Re:I don't want my fingerprints on my license!

[cale]

I thought he was joking....about time for that second cup of coffee. Yeah, last time i checked we all carry our fingerprints around with us everywhere, the difference being that currently there is no quick way for law enforcement to check them. ie, they have to haul us down to the station for some BS like a broken tail light, then print us, and then scan them in, and then search that big huge database and all that. Anyways, the whole fingerprints on license thing would work great in places where lots of people drive, like the west coast, and the more rural parts of the country, but here in manhatten I don't see this as being AS effective at numbering, catagorizing, and filing away every person, just becuase not that many people drive, and thus probably don't have drivers licenses. I know I don't.

Re:I don't want my fingerprints on my license!

[duckbill]

Wait for about three years. There will be an article on Slashdot "Congress Considers outlawing identity modification. Current legislation sponsored by Jesse Lamar Hitler would make it a federal crime punishable with death by torture for persons to modify their phenotype characteristics without consent from the government. Hitler states that sandpapering fingerprints has become a serious problem for National Security." First post reads, "Its really not that bad an idea. Consider that they have all that information anyway. If your a law abiding citizen, you don't have anything to worry about."

Re:I don't want my fingerprints on my license!

[Stonehand]

Wait until they opt for dental records.

"Please insert your license in your mouth. Ok, you may now bite down..."

Heh.

READ THE ARTICLE

[BugMaster ChuckyD]

1) Hes a member of the House of (Un)Representitives, not a Senator (and a Republican of course)

2) Any time a politician proposes to increase government information on or control over its citizens in the interests of law enforcement be afraid, very afraid. Don't let them do it. The 80's "tough on crime" binge has seriously eroded the 4th amendment IMO.

3) whats wrong with ACLU? any organization that takes a hard line on defending civil liberties Is A Good Thing (TM) in my book.

"I suppose you'd rather have terrorists?" - Brazil

Re:READ THE ARTICLE

[Stonehand]

If memory serves, it's arguable that the ACLU has been quite selective. I don't remember them waging war against, say, the law that defined sexual harrassment completely within the view of the accuser (as in not using a "reasonable person" standard). Where were they during that erosion of the First, and why is that only applied to SH? If the standard of harrassment is "I claim to be uncomfortable with what you're saying/doing/not saying/not doing", then why doesn't it apply to every sphere of life? (shudder)

Re:Great idea!?????

[javac]

I live in Georgia, we already have to give them our fingerprints when we get our new license. It isn't stored on a chip though, it is encrypted on the back of the card

Re:fear and loathing in S.A.

[Rombuu]

Good, glad to see at least some of my tax dollars are being used properly.

Re:Freaky..

[Rombuu]

Puh-leez.. what is it about privacy issues that gets all the holy rollers coming out of the wood work talking about the end of the world? Here is a hint people... It's a fairy tale!!!!!!!

Re:Great idea!?????

[felix rayman]

Hmm. They usually ask me for my phone number and address. It always bothers me when private companies want to know more about me.

Don't let it bother you, just have fun with it. Give them the phone number of the other Radio Shack across town, or whatever. The same thing that you should do when nosysite.com wants an e-mail address before they let you download something, give them root@nosysite.com.

I'm sure the more imaginative amongst you can think of better pranks...........

As far as putting my fingerprints on an ID card, it's no big deal, you'll just have to kill me first. I'd rather die free than live as a slave.

ahem ... paranoia all about

[hollow_man]

I don't see what's so bad about an ID card. I am originally from a country that had an ID card (Belgium).Okay... so you couldn't lie about your identity but then again I only needed that one card to prove anything. Nowadays I live in the UK, when I wanted to get a bank account I needed about 10 proves of ID, letters addressed to me, bills etc etc ... it took me 2 months to get national insurance here ... I think you lot are overly paranoid.(boy I might get quite a bit of flack for this).

And for those quoting the bible : use your mind for a change.

Re:ahem ... paranoia all about

[hollow_man]

Well for a change ... The bible is written by man,
and since I don't believe in the supernatural, the
bible for me has only value as any other philosophy book. I.E.: it promotes a worldvision, a way of life for which I have great respect, as it seems be about not choosing the easy path. However, to use the book for prophecies, or to justify the existence of an omnipotent god, sorry no can do. There may be some form of life out there that's has greater capabilities than us,
I don't play along with this god mumbo jumbo. Hence me saying "use your mind". I've had enough of people who are just shouting because their doctrine or brainwashing demands it.
And for the people scared about the ID card limiting their freedom ... I don't feel more free since I don't have an ID card anymore. There is nothing more I can do now. Seriously, I don't understand what the fuss is about.

finger prints

[chris.bitmead]

If they require finger print info on the card then that means the govt will have the whole nation's finger prints in their computers. Then they'll build even bigger super-computers and run them against their unsolved crime database. And whenever a crime occurs they'll run all prints found through the computer and identify everyone at the scene of the crime. They already do this of course, but without the benefit of everyone's fingerprint.

Next step I guess is random checks of people. If you look suspicious they'll ask for your card and stick it in their palm pilot to look at your records.

Re:finger prints

[chris.bitmead]

Yeah sure, they could. They could take your fingerprint info and throw the info away. Yeah right. I've got this nice bridge I want to sell. Interested?

Re:finger prints

[chris.bitmead]

If your prints are electronically coded on your card there will be a million and one opportunities for the govt and private enterprise to store that info. Once it's stored it will be used.

When do you want delivery on that bridge?

Re:finger prints

[Patman]

Not necessarily. They could, in fact, put your fingerprints on the card for the purpose of determining if you belong to the card. Crazy, you say? Well, the Congreeman proposing this legislation is very again illegal immigration - so I'd be willing to bet this is what he had in mind, to make sure that you can't use someone else's card, or it'd be harder to counterfeit the cards.

Re:finger prints

[Patman]

Who says they need to throw it away? Friggin Christ - they could get you to put your fingerprints RIGHT ON THE DAMN CARD. Then, there's nothing to keep. No one's talking about a global fingerprint database - that's something you guys made up on your own.

Re:finger prints

[bugg]

Exactly whats the problem with this? These are fingerprints, not DNA. Its not as if they'll know much about you with them on file. It'll just help solve crimes.

$.02

Already true in Brasil

[bogado]

Here in Brasil we aready have, not one but two "unique" Ids. The "Identity Card" and the "CPF" and for joing even a simple video rental we need to provide them both.

In the identity card we have a finger print and the finger prints are also stored in a central. So we already have a code-bar in our fingers. There is also a black-list of people that had the same check returned more than twice, those people cannot have checks or bank acounts.

--
"take the red pill and you stay in wonderland and I'll show you how deep the rabitt hole goes"

Don't Worry

[Jimhotep]

We create problems.
We offer solutions.
We are the Illuminati.

Americans ....

[RabidMonkey]

Why is it that Americans, in general, are so damned stubborn when it comes to what they consider their 'constitutional rights'?

Everyone gets up in arms because someone might have their SSN (I'm assuming this is something like our SIN here in Canada) put on their drivers liscense.

who cares? For one - no one ever looks at Drivers liscences, two, no one cares what your SSN is, so why worry about it. If someone wants to find out info about you it's as simple as getting your name, and everything elsecan be looked up within hours (minutes ...)

Americans are so concerned about little things like this ... "oh my god, another number on my liscence, the world is over, boo hoo". "oh my god, i might not be able to carry a concealed weapon or buy guns at the corner store any more, boo hoo".

It's probably time to have a look at what you consider your rights and decide where you can give a little, and where you can take a little.

Todd - annoyed with paranoid Americans.

"You're not paranoid if they really are out to get you" - doesn't apply in this case.

--------------------------------------

Re:Americans ....

[RabidMonkey]

good points, all of them, but simply having the information doesn't mean they are going to use it.

Look at it like this: I would LOVE to have a single card that I could pull out and use everywhere. I go into the bank, it's my bank card, I get pulled over, it's my liscence, I go get a job, it's my SIN (SSN) card, it's my library card, my video rental card. It's everything. No hassles.

Just because they have access (who ever THEY are) doesn't mean they are going to use it to find out crap about you. Why do they CARE what cereal you ate.

If companies started getting this info, I would be more concerned about it. But the government I trust, not to make the right decisions, but to not divulge information that they shouldn't.

The legal system would have a blast with THAT lawsuit.

Todd.

Re:Americans ....

[cr0sh]

I cannot trust my government - how can I when the President (the President!!!) LIES!?

Re:Americans ....

[cloquewerk]

I believe we have the same sort of situation going on here in Canada as well. No one around here really cares what's happening. I myself am a university student, and I love reading about how students in other countries (often very repressed ones, such as in South America, China, Burma, etc.) organize to fight any laws that restrict freedom. Their effects range from minimal to great, but at least they try. Here, most people look at me strangely when I mention that we should be more aware of what the government (our government!) is doing. I believe "why bother? It's boring" or a paraphrase of that is one of the most common answers I get.

And I agree--I don't believe that "will the government use the information about what cereal I ate?" is the proper question. It should be, "why does the government need to know?"

Re:Chill dude...

[RabidMonkey]

... how is putting information on a piece of plastic restricting your freedom? Thats like saying that eating tuna makes the moon rotate slower. They have absolutly no connection.

Todd.

Re:fear and loathing in S.A.

[RabidMonkey]

... this is exactly the attitude that all humans should share. What makes me (as a Canadian) different from most of you, Americans? I have 2 hands, 2 legs, 1 head, 1 heart (and all those other vital organs), but I'm not allowed to work in your country because I'm from Canada, a separation that doesn't exist anywhere but in an Atlas. Because you live 200km south of me, you are a legal American, while I am not. Not that I want to be American. But I feel that all humans hsould be allowed to go anyplace on this earth without any hinderance what-so-ever. Why? Because I have no right (nor does anyone else) to tell you you aren't welcome here, because I don't own this country, nor does anyone else on this earth, or anywhere else for that matter. We all own this land, but we still make claims that this is 'my land', 'our country' ... to me, Illegal Immigration doesn't exist - what is exists is a bunch of people (politicians, etc) telling people they aren't good enough to be on this part of the earth.

This will never be fied, simply because there aren't enough voices ...

Todd.

Re:Chill dude...

[RabidMonkey]

How have you lost control over who you are? Instead of carrying your 4 cards around in your wallet with the same info, you carry one. All the information is ALL the same, ALL of it exists, ALL of it is redily available currently - how is putting it on one card more freedom-taking than carrying 4 cards?

Todd.

Re:Before the privacy adovacates get medieval on t

[Cb22]

And it doesn't bother you that there are people in the government who come up with stuff like this and are so unconcerned with privacy that the effects this stuff has on privacy aren't apparent to them?

Not like this should be a real shock or anything, but if people just get tired of getting upset about it, there's nothing left to stop it from happening.

Re:Fishnet approach to law enforcement

[ThePlague]

United States ID Card. The acronym would be USIC, which should be pronounced: "You sick". Very fitting, I must say.

This sounds like a job for....

[parkrrrr]

fifteen seconds in the microwave, followed by an "accidental" encounter with one of those big magnets out of a hard drive.

Seriously, wonder what the penalty will be for an individual whose ID just suddenly "stops working" for no reason whatsoever. I've had the magstripes on credit cards give up on me, and I'm sure most of us have experienced the joy of static electricity. Can we expect even more overstressed travelers to snap when they're detained in Pittsburgh because their ID stopped working?

Re:Illegal SSN use

[D3]

Yeah, but I was under the impression that for Congress to change it there would be 2 checks against it. One: If they pass a law that uses the SSN illegally, someone will challenge that law in the Supreme Court. Two: to do a legal change they have to bring up specific legislation to repeal the original SSA before making a new one. This _in theory_ would be checked by the public at large and groups like the ACLU.

Darn, where did I put that URL...

[D3]

I actually came across a site that claimed the UPC was the mark of 666 because the double lines that start, end, and are in the middle of the bars are all 6's. However, when I looked at the UPC for some stuff lying on my desk I found the bars for the number 6 were different from the ones that delineate the code.

Illegal SSN use

[D3]

I wish I knew where to look up a source for what I have to say. I'm pretty sure the Social Security Act that started all of this specifically states that your SSN is not to be used as a national identification number. Does anyone have more info?


Show us your papers! What, no papers? To the showers!

Re:Illegal SSN use

[CharlieG]

The changed the law. BTW You'll need to PROVIDE, (But it doesn't have to be ON) you SSN for every license you get. It's to stop "Dead Beat Dads"

Re:Illegal SSN use

[Manax]

Well, here is a link to a compilation of SSA laws and a history of the SSN. Although the history is interesting on it's own, look at years 1971-1975.

Y'all are missing the REAL problem

[Unknown Poltroon]

The national id card dosent make a difference either way. When every cop/bouncer/stalker has their handy dandy palm pilot/dna anlyzer(they're developing a handheld dna tester for crime scenes) who cares if you have a little plastic card with your name, life history, sexual preferences and the last 10,000 places youve been checked appear, along with your picture and thumbprint, the little plastic card dosent matter.

Re:More purchasing questions

[Patman]

I got no problem with the discount club tactic - that's fine with me. However, whenever anyone asks me for my ID/DL, I never hand it to them. My wallet has a little flip-up plastic cover thing, sorta like what you see when cops have that little flip-up badge dealie. Whenever anyone asks to see my ID, I hold that up, and they can look at it until their eyes fall out, for all I care. No one has ever asked me for any more then that.

Re:Fishnet approach to law enforcement

[I R A Aggie]

If it's legitimate and private, who gives a darn if the guv'ment wants to monitor it, then?

I guess you won't mind if the government comes by your home from time-to-time to check to make sure that the serial numbers on your stuff doesn't appear on lists of stolen goods. Scratched out your serial numbers? you thief.

Let's face it, the 4th Amendment baring unreasonable search and seizure only protects criminals!!

James - add sarcasm to taste...

Re:Fishnet approach to law enforcement

[I R A Aggie]

In any properly designed system, there would be safeguards against governmental (or private) abuse. Call me an idealist,
but I trust elected officials to be somewhat paranoid for us when it comes to providing an avenue for self-protection.

Let's see...Alabama syphillis experiments...exposing retarded children to radiation...US troops to radiation...Agent Orange...Wounded Knee (either one), Ruby Ridge
and Waco...all brought to you by the same Government that's here to Help.

Uh huh

James - fool me once, shame on you...do it again, shame on me...

Next on your NationalID Card...

[I R A Aggie]

...a blood sample for DNA matching.

James

How does this invade privacy?

[David_W]

Alright, in all seriousness, exactly how is this card going to invade privacy? Lots of states already put your SSN on there, so that's not a real change. Just seems like everyone is screaming "Orwellian!" but never saying why...

Re:Great idea!?????

[Kento]

it is scary - for one thing, it's another id for no specific purpose. Although, iirc, the mark of the beast is an ic embedded on the back of the hand, the similarities are disconcerting, to say the least

Enumeration of rights and priveleges

[timothy]

Riktoy wrote:

A privilege is something you must earn, which allows you to voluntarily do something. Driving is a privilege (not a right, as many Americans might think!)

Well, not to get into the semantics of this (since many people use that as an example of the difference between a right and a privelege) but on a strictly literal level, Why is driving not a right?

If driving is not a right (or the manifestation of rights), what is? If there is freedom of assembly, it would be a huge abbrogation of that right if practical means of exercising it were banned. And more importantly, the pursuit of happiness requires a vehicle physical or mental.

I could as legtimately say that just about anything is 'a privelege, and not a right' because there are (inane) laws which intrude to regulate the use of everything from computers (FCC regs regarding interference) to construction (wetlands preservation rules which can destroy the worth of useful property) to bicycles (helmet laws). Is riding a bicycle a privelege rather than a right? In the eyes of statists / permissionists, Yes.

Given certain mitigations, the statement that driving is a privelege rather than a right makes more sense: since roads are government owned, those govts which pay for their construction and upkeep seem to have the right to determine who may drive and on what terms; however, since road right of ways are controlled (near) exclusively by the government, it should be the burden of the State to allow anyone to use them that will.

A more important point though is that only the most basic, broadest, universal rights should ever be placed into law (as in the US Constitution) -- never specific ones. There's no point in saying "You have the right to paint your living room walls red," because that's covered by your right to pursue happiness, to express your views non-violently, to trade with others (for paint and brushes and possibly labor), etc. And even these are getting too specific.

Enumerating 'rights' that are specific and minute weakens both those enumerated (because that which is given can also be taken away or 'updated') and those left out, because 'No one says you have the right to that!'

And if you still think driving should be termed a privelege rather than a right, I hope will agree that the onus of proving someone unworthy of that privelege lies with the state -- in other words, innocent until proven guilty.

My thoughts,

timothy

How does this limit illegal immigration?

[dkm]

How does using a Soc. Sec. number limit illegal immigration? You don't have to be legally employable to get one. Technically, anyone who works, legally or illegally must have one.


There was actually a case in California a while back where an elected official had problems because they hadn't paid social security for a maid they had employed. And the maid was an illegal immigrant.

Re:How does this limit illegal immigration?

[ronfar]

Seems that many people aren't interested in limiting "illegal" immigration, because then we wouldn't have a workforce of sub-minimum wage laborers with no constitutional rights to pick vegetables, oranges, etc. (It seems that the government thinks certain types of "illegal" immigration are fine and dandy, as long as the people are kept at sub-citizen status and the pockets of these politicians are kept well lined with political contributions.)
The purpose of these cards is to make sure that these people never get the right to vote, free speech or anything else to complain about their situation. Since they're "illegal" (with the tacit consent of the government, as long as they are exploited in the right way) they don't have any rights, and can be deported at will.
These new ID cards make it easier to control whether or not an "illegal" immigrant is able to take advantage of the laws which protect other Americans but which don't protect them from unmitigated exploitation because of their non-citizen status. It is possible to forge other documentation (remember the episode of "The Simpsons" where Apu was trying to get citizenship?) but this kind of high-tech control will further reduce the ability of "illegal" immigrants to get around the law (and to become enough of an embarrassment to the government that another amnesty is declared, or something.).
Of course, a nice side effect is that they'll also make it easier to control the population of formerly free citizens of the US as our rights get reduced and the government is better able to track everything we do.

Discount Card Tactic

[cr0sh]

Certain stores here in Phoenix - if you don't have a card - will swipe a "generic" card through. Another way around it is to shop at Albertson's (if you have those - BTW, at least here, the meat selection is excellent) - they don't use a card, discount is automatic (like you are really saving anything)...

The last thing is to obtain many different card (say 10-20) and swap them around with friends, put fake info on them as well...

Fishnet approach to law enforcement

[laetus]

Once again, we're subjected to the fishnet (catch all) approach to law enforcement. We're all assumed to be criminals unless we have an ID card. We subject the mass of law-abiding citizens to identity registration in the hopes of catching lawbreakers.

It's much like speed bumps in a neighborhood. We all have to ruin our suspensions for the few that speed.

I never thought I'd see the day when Americans were so paranoid about criminals that they would voluntarily subject themselves to a "United States Identity Card". It's really sad.

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania (1759)

Re:Fishnet approach to law enforcement

[laetus]

I call a driver's license just that, a license to drive. Its sole purpose it to establish that I have met the banal government requirements necessary for me to drive.

It does not establish my identity for uses other than allowing me to drive, which a national identity card would.

Re:Fishnet approach to law enforcement

[laetus]

Thank you for making my point. When the USIC becomes law, add to your list:

and any legitimate private activity that government bodies may want to monitor

Re:Fishnet approach to law enforcement

[J. Pierpont]

What do you call a driver's licence?

"I never thought I'd see the day when Americans were so paranoid about traffic law violators that they would voluntarily subject themselves to a "Driving Permission Card". It's really sad."


-awc

Re:Fishnet approach to law enforcement

[J. Pierpont]

If it's legitimate and private, who gives a darn if the guv'ment wants to monitor it, then?

-awc

Re:Fishnet approach to law enforcement

[J. Pierpont]

I'm not really as much of an anti-privacy nut as it seems. It's just that I really don't fear the government.

This is how I see it: They already know a whole lot about us. They know where we work, how much we make, where we live, who is in our family, where we travel (outside of the country, at least), and probably a whole lot of other things that I can't think of.

In any properly designed system, there would be safeguards against governmental (or private) abuse. Call me an idealist, but I trust elected officials to be somewhat paranoid for us when it comes to providing an avenue for self-protection.

Of course, it would be possible for the system to become horribly perverted. But that would require the House of Representatives, the Senate, the Executive branch, and the Courts of Appeals and the Supreme Court all be aligned against us.

And when is the last time that that much government agreed on _anything_?

I suppose that would be the time for a little revolution (legal or extralegal).

-awc

great

[Hard_Code]

Great...it's bad enough that the DMV have your fingerprint, a unique id number, and travelling residence information, which is all available to the goverment AND mass marketers at any time.

I'm 20, and I, incidentally, don't have a license. This really isn't making feel like I want to get one soon.

Its about collaboration people!

[cyphunk]

What was the whole stick about the PIII, that organizations could collaborate to track you and the such. The same concern lies in one unique ID for each person that they use for everything, government agencies getting the easy road to tracking someone with *criminal* intentions. And we all know that the Gov has the absolute perfect definition for what Criminal is, whatever they hell they want it to be. Geeze, Janet Reno has basically called everyone type of person a criminal except for those like her (and those that she kissed ASS for to get where she is).

l8r
- Cyphunk

Are you nuts*?

[DzugZug]

Do you think that the intent of this bill makes it any less of a privacy violation*? How bout this*? Random car and house searches are ok b/c they are looking for drugs and drugs are bad. So It's ok if 20 or so DEA guys come in and trash your house looking for drugs. Do you think that any senator is going to say they are doing something to eliminate privacy*? Of course they want to fight some alement to society. I just think they can do so without restricting my rights any.

This is basicly what you are saying. Oh sure, it's ok. This isn't a privacy issue because they are looking for illegal imagrents. But why stop there at national ID cards*? How about Global ID cards*? Or do you like that idea too*?

The whole thing sounds pretty shady to me. This is still a few steps form the Nazi *"Stop*! Papers please.*" But, we are getting closer.

Crime is a cancer to society and like cancer the symptoms of the treatment for crime seem to be getting worse than the symptoms of the crime itself.

The Future

[ronfar]

An extrapolation of the effects of a bunch of new laws, new technology, currect media attitudes linked together:

"We found this copy of Doom," says Federal Agent #1
"Check it for DNA, the Hyde law makes it illegal to sell that stuff now"
Federal Agent #2 runs the game through his portable DNA scanner, skin flakes on the box provide the names of several people who handled the game including a kid named Sam. On Sam's profile is alert, "Currently on probation for distributing copies of the obscene video game Doom. His ID card is currently located in Blockbuster Video 54321 North Fud Street..."
"Let's roll, he's facing five years in prison for this," the agents go to the video store.
The Federal Agents spot Sam, "Halt, you are wanted for distributing obscene video games," one shouts, weapon drawn. "I can't go to prison," Sam yells, he runs, the cops gun him down.
"Lousy #$@!#, got what was coming to him," says Fed2.
Video cameras in the store capture the whole thing on video, including Sam's bullet ridden corpse. In millions of living rooms across the nation, TV's blacked out by V-chips come on for a moment. "This just in," says a newsreader, "Sam Blank, a local man, was shot while fleeing arrest. Mr. Blank was facing prison for a second offense in purveying violence to our children," the news shows pictures of Sam's bullet-ridden body, which isn't blocked by the V-chip because it is a news story. Then the TV goes black again as the V-chip reactivates.
Welcome to the future.

Re:fear and loathing in S.A.

[ronfar]

Thank you, for a very well written response to this troubling social trend. I have nothing to add, I'm just glad that there are people like you serving in our armed forces because it gives me hope for the future.

More on Lamar Smith

[ronfar]

Lamar Smith also voted for the Hyde Amendment to the recent Juvenile Crime Bill. This bill amendment, if passed, would mean five years in jail for selling Doom to a 15 year old.

Here's his Web site: http://www.house.gov/lamarsmith/


What a god-damned fascist.

Code of Federal Regulations

[wagnerer]

For all the regulations in effect check here. I don't think part 1331 has gone into effect yet (Oct 1999 I believe) so thats why its not listed.

Re:fear and loathing in S.A.

[Flak]

"...Every person who lives in a country, whether they are 'registered' or not, contributes to the economy. Do illegal immigrants not eat? Do they not buy clothing? Presumably if they are here long enough they buy more material items such as cars and houses. How can this possibly be bad?"

How does an illegal immigrant spending money have any thing to do with an increase in the American economy? I at one time employed many immigrants from Mexico, they where are all hard workers and I new I could relay on their work. I also saw that they illegally brought with them their families. No problem there. My problem was that one fellow brought his sister with him, it was not my business to find out if she was legal so I never asked. I was told by a INS agent that she was illegal and that she had brought five kids with her. She went on welfare, got paid to sit on her butt and have her friends watch her kids as she spent her time looking for a man to help her make kid six to increase her weekly state check. She never paid one cent into the system, why should she get the RIGHT to get welfare? She used her body as the factory and the state was the consumer. She was making money from having children!

This made me very mad. Me, a contributor to the gross national product at a time of need was told by the same state that there was no reason I should get any state support as I was not in need. (I had not paid rent in three months, and I was living off of Raman and water). I remembered those days when I was out of work and I could not feed or house myself. BUT someone that has never contributed to the system was taking home over 2k a month?

My family was a family of immigrants yes, they came over on the mayflower. We (my family) helped mold this great county for 400 years. I was given nothing when I asked. But any illegal immigrant can just waltz into a state office and demand assistance. The system is wrong. The county has lost it's own being. This is a melting pot yes. But is it right that a state would turn its back on a tax paying citizen so they could dish the cash out to people that will never be productive members of the community? where is the justice in that?

fact or fiction?

[The Queen]

Bravo, mah brutha!
You read Ayn Rand at all?

The Divine Creatrix in a Mortal Shell that stays Crunchy in Milk

bible STORIES

[The Queen]

stories stories stories fiction fiction fiction
keep your faith out of my news

The Divine Creatrix in a Mortal Shell that stays Crunchy in Milk

Great idea!

[J. Pierpont]

We already have so many forms of ID, one consolidated one won't be that different.

-awc

Re:Great idea!?????

[J. Pierpont]

How different is that from someone finding your wallet with your driver's license and your credit cards?

It really isn't that far from what we have now, when you think about it. How many times have you had to give your social security number or other personal information to get a job. Have you bought anything from Radio Shack lately?

We really don't have all that much privacy to lose.

-awc

Re:Great idea!?????

[J. Pierpont]

England in the 1700s was not necessarily oppressive, it was undergoing a significant transition. The country was moving from a uniquely tempered monarchy (through the "nobles", etc.) to a quasi-constitutional democracy. The problem was that the fundamental arrangment of power never actually changed. England was marked more by a strong class structure (a problem with which it still struggles today) that tended to excessively classify people. I would say, though, that England of that period was one of the more liberal states in Europe. Russia was still overcoming backwardness, the French Revolution had not taken place, and Germany was in a state of chaotic morselization. Indeed, England was one of the few countries in which the R.C. or Orthodox churches did not have co-legal sway over the people. Granted that the Anglican church duplicated many of the Roman Catholic's oppressions, and it was to escape the Church of England that most of the emigrants left GB, but otherwise, I think it was a pretty liberal state.

Perhaps someone better versed in British history will correct me.

Anyhow, I don't care how much the government knows about me, really. When you think about it, they already know it. And if they wanted to know more, it wouldn't take that much effort on their part. Americans are very pissy about symbols, but real issues roll off our backs with hardly a batted eyelash. Look at the controversy over flag burning while actual liberty is allowed to slip away unelegized.

Etc.

-awc

Re:Great idea!?????

[J. Pierpont]

Hmm. They usually ask me for my phone number and address. It always bothers me when private companies want to know more about me.

There was an interesting call on C-SPAN's Washington Journal this morning. The caller wanted to know whether the guest (a columnist for The Nation, I think) was more afraid of big business or the federal government. His response was interesting: He trusted the federal government more than he trusted big business as "there were already plenty of people afraid of big government for him". I don't know whether or not I agree with his rationale, but I agree with his response. The government already know all about us. If it doesn't it can find out pretty darned easily (Linda Tripp was afraid of the illegality of her recordings, so she called the indep. prosecutor and he legally wired her up to record Ms. Monica). Big government has at least some reason to care about us (we can vote its tenders out of office), but big business caters only to Wall Street and its investors (one of which is me). Big business has repeatedly shown that it will kill and otherwise screw over average people in the pursuit of wealth for the luckies few. That is what scares me. Not that the government knows a little bit about me a little bit more easily.

-awc

Re:Great idea!?????

[J. Pierpont]

Pardon? I was bored at work. I don't have nearly enough free time.

-awc

Re:Great idea!?????

[J. Pierpont]

Isn't that live free _or_ die?

New Hampshire, right?

How about "live free and die". That's about how it works.

-awc

social security already overloaded

[sashac]

It is bad enought that "we" overload social security as a personal identification as well as a credit id. Those two should be separate to start with (as they are in many other countries). Now, to require that we have our credit identifier printed on our drivers license, which get pictured everytime you go into a pub. Just sounds like a bit too much for me to worry about. Who elected this guy anyhow? Who elects any of our polititions? Maybe voting should be mandatory!!! Why is congress constantly trying to remove our freedom, do they just forget?
Just get upset about these issues...

Re:SS # doubles as college ID

[mindkrime]

Well, I'm all for fighting the symptoms && the problem.

What? Do I hear.... A Revolution Calling?

Talk about your Police State....

[ShadowStar]

Ya know, it's ridiculous, America used to be touted as "The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave"... yea right.

My Dad remembers the radio broadcast when Social Security Numbers were introduced... and as I've often heard him quote..

"..Social Security Numbers will never be used for identification purposes.."

Nowadays, look around... you can't get practically anything without a SSN.. everything from Credit Applications, Licenses, Checking/Savings Account, all of it requires an SSN.. One fo the guys I work with, never had a SSN until he was 16 and needed it to get a job.

As if the information that they get from Project Echelon isn't enough, now they want us to carry around "smart cards" with our SSNs, fingerprints, name, address, date of birth, and "other personal information"...

Personal Information like what? how many times we've gotten pulled over? how many times you made a bill payment a day late? how many times you were rejected for a credit card? how many times you've been to the doctors and gotten a persciption?

Think of all the things that a SSN goes on? then think about how all those little pieces of information can be dumped into one huge database...

It'd be even easier than ever to track anyone world-wide..

"People won't miss what they never had."

Re:fear and loathing in S.A.

[asqui]

ooookay i think i got your point, but could you have gone without the life story?
dont mean to sound rude and ungreatful, just a thought :)

The real problem is this...

[Schizznick]

Yes we have drivers licences, work and school IDs, et... The catch is that we choose to accept these IDs. Nobody forces us to accept/not accept a job that requires IDs. Nobody forces us to drive a car. We arent even forced to attend a public school.
The catch with a national ID is that it gives the government the authority to step in and say "Unless you have this card you cant work, eat, drive, educate yourself, under any circumstances, even if the party your working with doesnt care if you have an ID or not." The government becomes a third party in almost every situation that should only be a two party affair. And the government dictates how interactions between those two parties can be carried out, even when it's "help" is unwanted or completely unwarranted.

If I want to work somewhere, and they require an ID, then the agreement is between me and my boss. If I want to drive, then I will choose to get a drivers license.
However if the government requires all interactions to be cleared through them by the use of some all encompassing tracking system, that is cleary an unwelcome intrusion into my liberty to conduct business as conscience guides me.

Oh...and for those who think "That would never happen in America"...well, what can I say to that? Some people have to find out the hard way.

Cheers.
Schizznick

Re:Illegal Laws

[Fjandr]

The courts can only do something about it until it,'s contested, and unfortunately, most Americans are sheep where the law comes in, and do what they're told to do.
I mean, come on, federal law only applies to individuals in respect to matters that affect more than one state or nation. /No/ federal law applies to you unless they have jurisdiction. Federal courts are legally obligated to prove that they have jurisdiction, as long as you contest their jurisdiction, but they don't actually tell you that...

Well Said

[Nachtfellen]

I understood the idea of that quote, but hadn't taken the time to dissect this particular situation in regard to that quote.
Thanks for your explanation, (while I am sure the original questioner will not thank you), it made the situation all that much more profound.

More purchasing questions

[Nachtfellen]

First, I already refuse to shop at stores that use the "discount club" tactic.


But anyways, the other day I went to pick up a bottle of Vodka, where I was asked for my ID, which didn't seem too odd in consideration of age requirements, but the next thing I know, the clerk didn't even look at it, he swiped it through his reader. So I look at the screen, and all of my personals come up. While I know I don't want people looking at my other buying habits, this would seem to be worse. The point is, for those people who say "Why should it bother you if someone else is tracking your every move unless you are planning on breaking the law?" is that I don't get to decide what is breaking the law. At least the government knows who likes to drink when they decide to make that illegal.

And by the way, this doesn't only apply to alcohol, this one of many actions that could be made illegal at the whim of the government.

(Of course, why should the government need track my drinking habits when I am stupid enough to list them on the internet myself?)

Re:More purchasing questions

[Nachtfellen]

Hadn't considered that, (which makes me feel kind of silly). Anyways, thanks for the IDea....

[off to buy a new wallet]

privacy

[Kalil]

I think lots of people will bitch about having all this information about them on a car is terrible. Well if you don't commit any crimes you don't have to worry about it. They aren't going ot come to your house to arrest you for a pirated CD. Some of that is useful. I had my finger prints taken as a child for help in a missing persons case. Reguardless of what I have heard on previous discussions, a fingerprint like that can't be used against you in court. That is so parents at the time wouldn't be unknowingly signing a death warrent if a crime was committed years down the road. A car with that information could be used for all kinds of useful security. Maybe I wouldn't have had to be running all over fucking indian reservations today to get my car back because some worthless bastards stole it. :)

SSN is voluntary to begin with !

[UnknownSoldier]

Sounds like it's time to get an International Drivers Permit (for those of you who don't have one yet.)

Funny, how the article never mentions that there is actually no law that requires a person to have a SSN. (yes, you CAN work, drive, live, etc, without one.)

Search www.yahoo.com for the "Sovereignty" movement.
i.e. peacefully and lawfully regaining our lost freedom(s).

One place to start is:
http://www.nyx.net/~imschira/frogfarm/fffaq16.ht ml

Start with a copy of Black's Law dictionary, and the Constitution, and do your own research ! :-)

Big brother comes to life (in the UK)

[fgc]

>big brother already live in the UK from what I
>have heard.. there are cameras in many places
>that are high crime...

True. If you walk down Oxford Street (London's main shopping street), for example....
They even make TV shows about how great it is:

"John the Security guard at [store x] doesn't like the look of that man.... He follows him around the store with cctv, then- as he leaves- calls Joe, the security guard in [store y] next door....
Joe doen'y like him, either, so they call the street security guard, who watches him walk down the street, tracking him with cameras, untill he leaves the area."

But it isn't all bad: There was a mini-bombing campaign a few months ago, in London. They got him, mainly becuase there are cameras everywhere that saw him leave a bomb...

Freaky..

[pzil0cyb3]

After reading this article, the first two things that came to mind were 1) the line in the bible about "The Mark of the Beast" where every person will have some sort of identification that is required to buy or sell or do anything. And 2) Awhile back in Newsweek they had a small story about something I think was called the "JavaScript Ring". This ring stored all of your personal information, and based upon your uid and assuming that buildings supported it, your entry into some buildings could be denied based upon the information on the ring. I'm not a Jesus Freak by any means, but I do keep an eye open, and these two items are pretty big eye openers. No such thing as privacy anymore...

Illegal Laws

[RTMFD]

I believe that it is time for what were formerly law-abiding American citizens to quit obeying the some of the Federal government's illegal laws. I know that I must "give unto Caesar what is Caesar's", but I don't think that Caesar owns my identity. When a law violates one of my natural rights such as my right to privacy, it becomes a threat to my liberty.

Scott McNealy Already Said It All..

[Rod Amis]

"Mr. Quote," during Congress's last *concern* for the ID on the Intel chip said: "What's the big deal? There's no such thing as privacy anymore."

You own a computer, a telephone, any wireless appliance, you are already catalogued and monitored. Get used to it already.

i guess that i wont get an ID card

[dozr]

what else do they want DNA strand, urin sample, first child? bah

SS # doubles as college ID

[Hijexx]

When I was attending college here in middle Tennessee, your social security number was used as your student ID # by default, unless you didn't have one. Same for the credit union I bank with. My account number is my SS#. Whenever I receive my paycheck, there it is as taxpayer ID. I believe the privacy advocates lost the battle a long time ago with the American identification system now in place. Fighthing the implementations used is just fighting the symptoms instead of the problem.

Identity Theft

[Desdicardo]

Personally, I am more concerned about identity theft than I am about the government keeping track of me. If someone steals your wallet and your driver's license with it, that person then has all the information they need to open credit card accounts in your name.

Re:Great idea!?????

[Chad Dale]

I live in Canada, but I feel that the issue still applies to us here. I think that you may be heavily over-reacting to the issue here. I mean, even now it's relativly easy to find personal info on other people if you know where to look. I mean, when you stop to consider it, does anyone really have privacy? Should we not be more concerned with WHAT this information is being used for?I for one would rather have a society where we KNOW we have no privacy, and can act accordingly, than one where we are nieve(sp) about privacy and take it for granted.

I also think that the louder we all scream about privacy, the more certain people will be inclined to find out WHY we are so worried about them knowing what we are doing.

Of course, my views and the views of readers in the US may differ simply becuase Canadians are more concerned with the rights of the many than the rights of the one (not saying either is different, it's simply a slight difference).

All that said, the trend towards massive stockpiles of information does make one consider how this information could be used in an unfriendly manner and who controls this information?