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Chad Davis May Be the Next Kevin Mitnick
19-year-old Chad Davis, of Green Bay, Wisconsin, made the front page of The Washington Post today. The story that features him says, "During [a] June 2 search, Davis admitted that he belonged to a notorious hacking gang that calls itself Global Hell, and the FBI agents let him know they were cracking down on the group. On June 28, Davis allegedly struck back: He replaced the Army's Internet home page with the message: 'Global Hell is alive. Global Hell will not die.'" The article reads like a chapter from The Hacker Crackdown, and it looks like Chad Davis may be used as an example of what the feds can do to crackers who mess with government sites. Mainstream news stories about Global Hell started appearing in May. I expect to see many more in upcoming months. Mitnick redux? Could be.
Here's something that comes to mind about the nature of the government and its security policies on their taxpayer bought hardware.
Why the hell arent they tightening their security up?
It seems to me that a greater more cost effective solution to costly legal expenditures and questionable police state tactics would be a sturdy security policy.
With perhaps a horde of these new Information Warfare kids hired as security consultants all dutifully exploring and getting bonus cash for the holes found in the governments "essential information infrastructure" holes could be patched money could be saved and a whole lot of civil liberties can remain untouched by the grubby hands of the justice department.
Anyone else seem to think there is a conspiracy of lax security luring little hack weenies to attack government websites and get caught so that they can portray the nations data networks as in need of government protection?
(Free kevin!) but prosecute him for credit card fraud.
Also, the following quote from the article should scare anyone who gives a damn about privacy on the net:
- "It is not that these are super whiz kids; it is the technology that gives them the ability to cover their tracks enough that you can have a hard time making a criminal case against them," said a senior federal investigator.
What this guy is trying to imply is that privacy is a tool of crackers, and if only there weren't so much privacy they wouldn't be able to get away with their crimes. Notice how he makes it out to sound as if the technology is going out of its way to make it easy to be anonymous. What a load of crap! If the technology does nothing, then anonymity is the default. The technology has to go out of its way to track people, not the other way around. (The web server has to actively engage in logging activity. It takes *less* effort to forget the accesses than it does to create logs and keep track of them.)Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
eww... packers! *gag*
It isn't that hard to keep your system secure. I was a part time sysadmin for a handful of Sun boxes in the USAF. All sysadmins (even small ones like me) get the government security bulletins. If you just keep your system up to date with patches and updates, it will take somebody with serious skills to get in. Unfortunately, not every sysadmin in the government stays on top of things, so it's not surprising that some of the standard script kiddie tools will work at random government sites here and there.
Don't worry too much though. No machine connected to the Internet is allowed to hold classified information. Also, the government sites that do have somewhat sensitive unclassified information also tend to be run by people with a clue.
Nice to know that we have NO rights.... This is whole thing is bullshit!! The gov has no business busting into a persons house to steal ur personal possesions and treat u like a criminal because u MIGHT be a axOr. The is all about keeping face. U throw a pie at someone, they get mad. The problem here is some people want to throw pies @ powerful corps. and the gov. and they are pissed cause they look like FOOLS! So the gov (big corps) sends its henchmen out to push us around and scare us cause they can. So if I hate paying taxes can I go round up the IRS and abuse them in anyway?? No, then I go to jail. But the gov can come over anytime they feel inclined and *uck with u or me. It is as if NO one can escape the long arm of the law.....not even the innocent. +FREEDOM+
---
"Who pill da cubby custar?"
--
If I actually could spell I'd have spelled it right in the first place.
Iambe: Oh, they caught the little lawnmower kiddie. My heart bleeds.
FBI: Yup, we got him! It took us plenty of expert analysis of the gasoline fumes left behind in the soil, and we had to examine the cut marks left by the blade and the tracks of its tires very carefully to be sure we had the right guy. But he won't be mowing "FREE THE FIFTH-PERIOD SEVEN" into the grass at the high school any more!
Iambe: I hope you're going to punish him.
FBI: We will. He'll probably hang.
Iambe: That's nice. I feel so safe now.
Erm, how hard is it to firewall all but port 80 (www) on these machines? that limits you to only exploits in apache, which are few and far between.
I've secured many machines for private organizations, and I admin a shell provider, it's NOT hard.
Just because you disagree doesn't make it offtopic or flamebait.
First, don't say that defacing a property is a minor crime. It isn't. Especially when the system and data are worth more than the hired help combined, which is usually the case. Here is a better analogy: Commiting armed robbery [cracking] at a 711 [the system], you draw your gun and the clerk [kernel] has a heart attack [fatal error], which in turn widows his children [ processes halt ], the clerk dies [[any] data or running processes are corrupted or lost]. Now, place a dollar amount on things and the damage is no longer trivial. Time is how these systems make money, you deal with a higher power when you mess with ppl's money. Besides, the law says that anything that happens in the course of an event that you caused, you are held responsible. So, would you have the intruder get a slap on the wrist for murdering the clerk? I don't think so, that contradicts way to many laws. Granted a computer is not a person, but ppl do depend upon computers heavily this generation. If a system is down or [infiltrated] it could mean LOTS of $ lost or $ to be shelled out for such incidents. Ppl get paid for security services, that doesn't mean you should break the law [litter] and then say it was nothing major. Laws are there for a reason, and believe it or not, they came the people. Besides, be happy that they are so lax, there used to be other ways of dealing with that sort of trouble. Maybe Mitnick is owned by them now? Scary, neh? Second, Mitnick wasn't a 'script kiddy'.. he actually knew what he was doing. Third, Government is not paranoid without cause; there is more than one rational explaination, but I will give one: Private sector salaries are higher than public service jobs. So how can they protect themselves when they can't afford the best? Authority. It is panic, but remember, corruption was a part of the downfall of Rome. Recap: Grow up, ppl got money on and behind those systems. Realize, you break a law, then you face the wrath of the public. Especially if its public tax $'s you will be punished to the full extent [and then some at a whim] of the law. And you have no rights when you cross that line. Expect to be caught, your arrogance will get you caught. It always does.
Why can't programmers just give up on the word "hacker"? Give it up -- it's a dead issue, and nobody else cares anymore.
By definition, a hacker is simply someone who hacks, which is broad enough to include lumberjacks, locksmiths, and anyone who's been smoking Camel straights for 30 years. These people, as well as programmers (with perhaps some overlap) all "hack", even if it isn't in Assembler.
Furthermore, the words "gay" and "queer" are completely unusable now, unless you are a homosexual. You're certainly free to say that you feel gay as in "happy", or queer as in "strange", but don't expect a lot of sympathy if someone takes it the wrong way.
if (hacker.mood() = offended) { BIG_DEAL("$0.02") }
There's a large difference, 'tho.
There's little gain in cracking/vandalizing a web page (unless you're being hired to do so...), except for reputation, ego or pride. The negative is that conceivably one could gain a felony conviction and jail time, which would probably put a huge damper on one's future -- and that's a pretty poor tradeoff. One could get a reputation by going around and murdering random people with, say, a chainsaw, but the cost-benefit analysis is pretty poor there too (likely endings: life imprisonment, shot by cop, or a years-delayed death sentence. It's not exactly compensated for by a badass reputation.), and it doesn't happen too often.
On the other hand, it's quite possible to live by robbery, burglary or drug-dealing (at least until you get caught)... and drug abuse tends to have a self-perpetuating psychological bonus, however temporary. That's their gain, and many will take the chance of getting busted.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Fools In Black........ errr...
Kevin Mitnick. Cracker. 4 years jail time (still locked up today).
Still see no problem here?
To put it another way suppose you get to judge. You have two cases before you for sentencing today. One is a guy who hax0r3d you web site and put up a page saying fr33 k3v1n. The other case is a guy who raped your wife.
Who will you give the bigger punishment to?
Now why shouldn't we all be pissed an how Kevin Mitnick has been treated by the legal system?
Yeah... prison labor... that's the solution to
the country's ills.
Just wait untill more people start thinking that is the way to go and start a mandatory policy of imprisonment. Saves the rest of us money dont you think? What should the ratio be. Hmmmm...
Anyone who actually thinks that it saves money to society to have someone locked in jail doesnt stop to consider the fees we pay to the correctional institution infrastructure in this country. One of the top growing industries I hear. Someone got some hot tips on stocks?
Its far more economically sensible to not have to put someone in prison in the first place. The amount of money that person makes (which gets spent by them and gets taxed from them) is far more beneficial than having them operate a drill press in the big house.
If all it takes is a "script kiddie" to break into .gov websites then perhaps the government should employ more script kiddies to sort their security out. The guy is a cracker. Also a hacker.
It's so strange, all the time I see posts on slashdot discussing the difference between hacker and cracker, yet out of the woodwork comes morons to defend this kid. If you're looking for the difference between hacker and cracker, take Davis as a prime example. Before cr/hacking even became the topic du jour, there was always the pretense that 'information should be free' (Ignore any parallels to some 2-bit movie).
Thus, early on, you had hackers who, did things because of their enthusiasm for all things electronic. Some of these had a quasi-political agenda, but they did what they did under a loose concept of 'knowledge'.
Today's crackers aren't of the same mindset, and thus can hardly be considered hackers or not, regardless of their 'computer enthusiast' aura. Any hacker ethos doesn't exist w/in the mind of a cracker.
This said, there are far more grounds, IMO, to punish Davis than Kevin Mitnick, Robert Morris, or anyone else who has/d even a glimmer of a true ethic. Script kiddiez give nothing to the hacker community, nor do they do anything to further society as a whole. They're just in it for the ego boost, and end up being parasites, dependent on their hosts (i.e., this world, the hacker community) -- and draining them.
Crackers do nothing that can be considered 'worthwhile' -- not even finding security holes (nevermind that hundreds before them have already 'found' them) -- because everything is still done under an exploitative pretense. If it's not done for the pretenses of knowledge or information, I could care less if the bloody bugger gets time.
Hehe..actually, one could draw a parallel to the execution of Socrates, to defacing a gov web site. Socrates harrassed the government as well. So they had no other choice but to kill him. Granted I doubt Chad can pronounce Socrates, let alone match his wits. Either way, it amounts to a govt extinguishing an irritating presensce.
Here here... this genius uses his own phone line and goes directly from his ISP to the target system. I know script kiddies that are smart enough to bounce around through a few low security elementary school computers first. Oh yea, prooves he has brass ones by showing how eager he is to meet his new boy friend in the state pen. They should make an example of him but I fear that may make him a marter to his script kiddie buddies.
--Let's hack root on 127.0.0.1 --panZ
someone goes into jail a small time criminal, not really that mentally fucked up, but then... post jail- he/she emerges into the bright happy world a traumatized, (you can imagine what kind of ass candy a 19 y/o kid has to offer to scary "bubbas") hardened, ("here kid, lemme teach you a little something about the tricks of the trade") betrayed, (yes, the gov't betrayed him) wasted, (spending a few years in prison, esp. during those crucial late teen/early adulthood times, can make someone jaded/tired about life) yes, he did a stupid thing, the equivilant of graffiti, but mabye he should pay a fine, obligatory counseling, public/community service, monitored access to the net, anything, but NOT something that is going to excerbate the problem. 8) i'll get off my soapbox/loudspeaker now.
I don't think it's terribly hard at all, but what makes you think this machine is used only for the web site? Maybe they do e-mail on it too? All it takes is one exposed vulnerable service.
Even if they did split the tasks between servers, all it'd take is one exposed vulnerable service on one exposed system to make everything else behind that firewall exposed.
If you run some vulnerability scan against an entire subnet, find a system you can get into, it doesn't take much more work to proceed again to a system that you ordinarily wouldn't be able to reach. In many cases, those "firewalled" systems tend NOT to have the latest patches and fixes installed, simply because the admins don't feel that there's much of a risk, since the firewall will protect them.
Um, if individuals didn't lock their homes, more would get broken into and MY insurahce rates would go up. Your bad health habits add to everyone's healthcare costs. Your bad drives affects my auti insurance rates too.
etc.
I don't think his point was that technology is the culprit here. I think he was trying to say that they aren't doing all of this investigating and they aren't having such a hard time tracking these guys down because they're GOOD; the suspects simply have access to programs/scripts (written by someone else) that make it difficult to track them.
He was just pointing out that they're not dealing with super-sleuths, just kids with access to "technology."
He might have stolen 20 000 credit card numbers, but never used a single one of them to buy stuff!
Then, what was the point of stealing 20K of credit card numbers? Did he plan on printing them out and using them as wallpaper? Sounds like he intended to pass them to friends for fun or profit in an act called fencing of stolen goods(Another criminal act).
Security holes are more like open doors. Sooner or later, someone's going to venture in and look around (regardless if they steal or not). That's why you lock your windows and door, and it's the same reason you lock your car after you park it. If you leave them open, it's a invitation for people to come in and mess around.
It is really easy to do and people should make a habit of it. Apply the same logic with computer security, and people should make a habit of securing computers.
Would the army build a base with a section of the fence missing? Probably not. Would the army arrest a guy who happens to venture in a unfenced section? Probably yes, but at least he won't be in the slammer longer than someone such as Chad or Kelvin.
:. Ultimate Control Dedicated/VM Servers
A criminal is going to jail? Oh what a shame. I am deeply concerned about the welfare of script kiddies. Yeah, right.
hardly the equivilant of graffiti. unless you would consider sneaking into a military base then breaking into one of the buildings and going up to the roof and hanging a big huge banner off the side just a simple harmless act of graffiti? i really dont think most people would and i think it's safe to asume that the military would deffinitly take it very seriously.
Okay..so according to your beliefs, stealing as a is okay as long as it's just a hobby and the individual has a legitimate job. Yeah...that sounds right to me. Idiot. Where do you people come from?
You should rephrase *steal* with *make exact copies of* just a little FYI on your logical analysis organic|quantum submechanics.
On the other hand, if you are a hacker and find a security loophole on the same sort of sites and quietly let the owners of the site know about that, you should be able to report that without fear of being prosecuted.
Unfortunately there's a fine line here and it's rather hard to define. Maybe we need to have people join a Hackers Union to allow them ethical hacking privaledges.
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
What a freak.
Don't be comparing this kid to Mitnick, Mitnick had skill, this kid had a bag full of tricks.
Mitnick screwed himself over. He waived his right to a speedy trial. I get so sick of seeing people talk about how Mitnick didn't get a speedy trial. He waived his right, it took a while, it's his problem.
-matt
I find your worries about declining property values unrelated to defacing web pages. The tenuous, 6 steps of seperation-laden drift from the already dubious graffiti analogy is beneath you. Or should be.
This kid did not use permanent spray paint to desecrate a person's private dwelling. He used the electronic equivalent of a dry erase marker on a glorified electronic roadside billboard. If any analogy applies, it's that one.
This is not to say analogies or hyperbole are needed. If I were to follow your argument to it's conclusion I could rant about "black people being 'proven to lower housing values' in racist white neighborhoods. Tough luck." This of course would be an absurd strawman attack on my part, but it's the sort of thing that happens when you start down the path of specious arguments.
Why not simply describe what actually happened? He temporarily defaced a web site belonging to a military organization. An organization, however legal, of hired killers by the way. (This is not hyperbole, just a lack of affording excuses to an organization that trains death squad governments throughout the Third World.)
So... Big deal. Cut his allowance and make him donate time doing web pages for non-profit orgs or something.
Support for putting a child in prison for a prank is an indication of the increasingly violent and primitive culture taking over the US. Nothing against Third World countries, but I'd rather not live in one.
Good to see a local boy in the news. I agree, however, that if you can't do the time, don't do the crime. It IS a premeditated crime, and he deserves to be punished.
HOWEVER: The fact that he will probably get a stiffer sentece than most violent criminals is at the heart of the issue for most in the tech community, and deeply worries me.
"More organs means more human." - Zim
It's all about the Pentiums, baby
Uhh, uh-huh, yeah Uhh, uh-huh, yeah
It's all about the Pentiums, baby
It's all about the Pentiums, baby
It's all about the Pentiums!
It's all about the Pentiums!
(Yeah!!)
What y'all wanna do?
Wanna be hackers? Code crackers? Slackers
Wastin' time with all the chatroom yakkers?
9 to 5, chillin' at Hewlett Packard?
Workin' at a desk with a dumb little placard?
Yeah, payin' the bills with my mad programming skills
Defraggin' my hard drive for thrills
I got me a hundred gigabytes of RAM
I never feed trolls and I don't read spam
Installed a T1 line in my house
Always at my PC, double-clickin' on my mizouse
Upgrade my system at least twice a day
I'm strictly plug-and-play, I ain't afraid of Y2K
I'm down with Bill Gates, I call him Money for short
I phone him up at home and I make him do my tech support
It's all about the Pentiums, what?
You gotta be the dumbest newbie I've ever seen
You've got white-out all over your screen
You think your Commodore 64 is really neato
What kinda chip you got in there, a Dorito?
You're using a 286? Don't make me laugh
Your Windows boots up in what, a day and a half?
You could back up your whole hard drive on a floppy diskette
You're the biggest joke on the internet
Your database is a disaster
You're waxin' your modem tryin' to make it go faster
Hey fella, I bet you're still livin' in your parents' cellar
Downloadin' pictures of Sarah Michelle Gellar
And postin "Me too!" like some brain-dead AOL-er
I should do the world a favor and cap you like Old Yeller
You're just about as useless as jpegs to Helen Keller
It's all about the Pentiums!
It's all about the Pentiums!
It's all about the Pentiums!
It's all about the Pentiums!
Now, what y'all wanna do?
Wanna be hackers? Code crackers? Slackers
Wastin' time with all the chatroom yakkers?
9 to 5, chillin at Hewlett Packard?
Uh, uh, loggin' in now
Wanna run wit my crew, hah?
Rule cyberspace and crunch numbers like I do?
They call me the king of the spreadsheets
Got em all printed out on my bedsheets
My new computer's got the clocks, it rocks
But it was obsolete before I opened the box
You say you've had your desktop for over a week?
Throw that junk away, man, it's an antique!
Your laptop is a month old? Well, that's great
If you could use a nice, heavy paperweight
My digital media is write-protected
Every file inspected, no viruses detected
I beta tested every operating system
Gave props to some, and others? I dissed 'em
While your computer's crashin', mine's multitaskin'
It does all my work without me even askin'
Got a flat-screen monitor, 40" wide
I believe that yours says "Etch-A-Sketch" on the side
In a 32-bit world, you're a 2-bit user
You've got your own newsgroup, alt.total-loser
Your mother board melts when you try to send a fax
Where'd you get your CPU, in a box of Cracker Jacks?
Play me online? Well, you know that I'll beat you
If I ever meet you I'll control-alt-delete you
What?
It's all about the Pentiums!
It's all about the Pentiums!
It's all about the Pentiums!
It's all about the Pentiums!
What y'all wanna do?
Wanna be hackers? Code crackers? Slackers
Wastin' time with all the chatroom yakkers?
9 to 5, chillin' at Hewlett Packard?
What??
"when i needed you most, when i needed a friend, you let me down now, like i let you down then."
If you just keep your system up to date with patches and updates, it will take somebody with serious skills to get in.
Serious skills or an early release of whatever exploit-of-the-week that ends up getting developed. Quite a few of these advisories come out after an exploit has been written and demonstrated, or at the same time. There's always a window of vulnerability in these cases.
As far as firewalls go, all it takes is one exposed vulnerable service to allow a script kiddie to get behind it. At that point, machines ordinarily shielded by the firewall (thus more likely to have complacent admins) become easier targets.
But yah, I do agree that if you keep up with the latest patches and fixes it makes things significantly harder for script kiddies. That still doesn't mean the script kiddies should get off the hook, though.
pls support free chad davis campaign.. got www.freechaddavis.com and click on my banner ads thx.
This guy is from Green Bay? I thought that the only thing we had in this state was beer and football... Makes me wonder if people from out of state will soon start pronouncing Wisconsin right.
You really think that a little script kiddie can be compare to Kevin.... what a shame for you!
Now get a clue!
Unix is user friendly... it just chooses it's friends selectively!!
On the other hand, crackers inhibit the government's ability to propogate its world view when they deface a web page, with the (unspoken?) threat of possibly doing much more (such as compromizing their databases and whatnot).
A cracker who breaks into a government Web server and changes content is a threat worthy of federal investigation and prosecution.
Allegedly, this guy just did some obvious defacement of the site. He could have made more subtle changes and removed restrictions on confidential data that's available on the server.
For instance, what if a cracker breaks into CPSC.GOV and removes links to a product recall he doesn't agree with? Thousands of consumers might not find out about an unsafe product and the means to get it fixed.
As another example, what if a cracker jacked with the IRS site so that taxpayers thought they owed lower taxes than they really do? The immediate gratification would be replaced with audits, late fees, and other tax boom-lowering.
The offense allegedly committed by Chad Davis is trivial, and that should be considered in his sentencing if he is found guilty. Breaking into a government Web site and changing information is a crime the feds should be taking seriously, though. (They also should be creating content-verification systems that prevent subtle changes from escaping notice.)
Rogers Cadenhead (Web: http://www.cadenhead.org/workbench)
How 'bout we add him to the "Free Mumia...the cop killer" bumper sticker?
Sorry just had to say that out loud.
(for those scratching their head, think football....)
Ohhh...yeah!
Blech. Signatures.
So you think that no-one should ever break a law, just because it's the law. What about all the non-violent protests of the civil rights era? They were breaking the law to show how the law was wrong and to make a political stance.
is this wrong? no. if the law is a bad law, it is up to the people to protest it so that i will be changed.
as for finding a hole, and then informing the sysadmin, what the hell is wrong with that? if the sysadmin isn't notified, then someone else could break in. if someone could break into my site, i would welcome them to inform me so that i could fix the problem.
*elevator music plays*
Similarly, people who put up out-of-the-box websites that are insecure by default, and never even asked nor checked if their site was secure have little right to bitch and demand vengeance when their sites get h4x0r3d.
The internet isn't safe. Set up defenses and prepare for the attacks or go back to sticking flyers under windshield wipers and get off the 'net.
Now THAT's funny (in a sick sort of way). You just made my day.
the big news today is that someone got caught accessing a computer which he was not authorized to access, and now the federal government is going to aggressively prosecute him both as a penalty and as a high-profile deterrent to other hackers.
is this surprising? no. is this a problem? no. as we move into the future, the feds are goign to get better and better at catching and prosecuting those who chose to trespass in computers that they are not supposed to access. good for them.
Nevertheless, when you signed the "thing" (ticket) you were agreeing to waive your rights. If you look carefully at the ticket, it says something along the lines of "By signing this form, I hereby waive my rights..."
In many states, you sign the ticket and if you pay the summons you are considered guilty. If you sign the ticket, but you believe you are not guilty- then you go to court on the date that the friendly police officer gave you. Signing the ticket does not say that you are guilty, but simply allows you to waive your rights. As the previous poster said, don't sign the ticket next time and be arrested, have your car impounded, etc...
As for our script kiddie Chad here, if he does not waive his rights, he and his attornies have a month or so to prepare their case. If he wishes to have more time to prepare, then he will have to waive his right to a speedy trial and perhaps stay in jail for years waiting for a trial.
The problem is analogous to the in-band signalling that telephone switches formerly used. An outside agent should not be able to hijack a cpu's execution flow any more than an outside agent should be able to hijack the routing of a phone call. Until we universally implement mechanisms, preferably in hardware, to protect this data, for example by separating an execution stack from the general data stack and placing them in memory correctly, ridiculous problems such as this will persist. Patching holes like we currently do is not enough.
I think the old precedents apply just fine in this case. Kids are stupid sometimes and do stupid things. It's a combination of lack of good parenting, natural curiosity, lack of real-world experience and rebelliousness. They don't need to spend 4-10 years of their lives in prison for it. I did stupid things as a kid. I got punished for it and after a couple times I learned my lesson. I don't see why they should be punished so severely for such a minor thing just because the government is afraid because its systems aren't secure. Maybe if the government would actually do something useful for once instead of just declaring a "war" on any activities they don't like, we might have a better society.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Absolutely.
and their parents deserve to be held accountable for the monetary damages.
Um, not quite.
Well, they will be held accountable, because it's their kid(s). But you say the kids aren't supervised enough by their parents. I don't know this particular kid's parents, but I think I can make a pretty safe assumption that they are not computer experts. So they can supervise all they like, and the kids will do what they want anyway. And if the parent asks what the kid is doing...
"I'm playing a game."
And whether it's true or not, the parent probably won't ever know the difference. That is, until the police starts showing up. It's still their responsibility, but not really their fault.
For one, if you are the armed forces, or a federal agency under dod or doj, you might have classified information. Several levels of it. And then unclassified but decidedly unpublic information.
Web servers are probably dead last when it comes to infosec priorities.
To us it's big news if the army web server gets hacked. But the army has much bigger fish to fry. Like not getting its people killed. Nobody gets killed when somebody vandalizes its website.
Despite the small inconvenience to the army, prosecute him for breaking and entering, vandalism, and whatever else you can. I think an example (unfortunately) has to be made of him, because people might not realize what I mentioned above. If people believe the army website getting cracked is a national security concern, and the cracker gets two years probation, that's bad.
Point two -- they got caught. This is for those who say the federales are stupid. As a former crackee (some czech punk deleted my senior project off a school system), I would be more than willing to get my website defaced to put some people in jail. Maybe the gov just won't admit it was a sting. ;)
I'd answer this, but it was already answered here.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
However, I as an individual am hardly harmed. If the IRS gets their facts wrong and I underpay, the IRS is at fault, not me. I may have to hire a good lawyer and go to court, but no lasting harm is done.
I think most people who have hired a lawyer to defend themselves and go to court would define that as "lasting harm." Lawyers and trials are expensive, both in money and time. The IRS Web site is just one of many that publishes information that could be harmful to people if altered or removed.
If my only source of information for a recall is a government web page I have to take the trouble to find and dig through, then there are more serious problems with the recall notification procedure than a petty vandal's mucking with the web page.
Access to accurate information from the government is essential to the democratic process. I think it's a serious problem when crackers alter this information, despite the fact that most of these break-ins have been trivial to date.
If you don't hear about a product recall from the media, the only place that information is made available is the CPSC Web site. It serves a vital need, and it's important for that information to be reliable.
As more people rely on the Web for information, the necessity of accuracy on government Web sites becomes more important to this country. That's why I think it is important to investigate and prosecute people who break into government Web sites and alter them.
I am at most inconvenienced by such things. The government, on the other hand, has its power to govern more seriously hampered.
I think the feds prosecute crackers for the same reasons many local prosecuters do. It's a sexy crime with non-violent perpetrators that gets media attention and can help justify bigger budgets. No conspiracy there, aside from the most popular conspiracy on Earth -- making easy money.
Rogers Cadenhead (Web: http://www.cadenhead.org/workbench)
You moron.
In what way is copying files back to a directory tantamount to having to buy a new store window and installing it after you sweep up lots of dangerous glass ?
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If I spray paint your garage door, is that the real world equivalent? Not quite. However, if I break into your house by smashing a window and then start defacing things, then it becomes the equivalent.
Cracking somebody's system is breaking and entering, not vandalism.
Anyway, I don't think this kid deserves jail time, but I do think he deserves a 3 year probation and a nice fine that takes a couple years to pay off.
I agree
:)
This guy deserves community service. They should force these kids to make the webservers they hack secure if they get caught.
Mitnick waived his right to a speedy trial. It's his own damned fault he was in jail for so long.
-matt
The point is why are people already comparing him to Mitnick? I fail to see any similarities in the two cases.
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see subject
Two million dead Africans seems infintely more important to me than Global Hell.
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Aren't there sentencing standards?
Wasn't Mitnick a "repeat" offender? Wasn't he a fugitive? Shouldn't these factor into the sentence? Tyson did neither and his case bordered on date rape. -bad example-
In the case of physical crime, the gov't does have a somewhat effective response, put more police on the streets. It usually has a very clear impact on crime. They don't have an effective response to increased hacking. Perhaps *you* have an answer?
ok look at gH look at their name.. how lame
"GlObaL HeLl!!! KaUzINg HeLL oN UrTH!!!!!"
mindphasr was a skript kid who had no skill
i have logs of gh members rming utmp and wtmp because they lack the skill to run zap2.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
i hope he gets ass raped
a real group is PHC
greetz 2 m1str. realhacker
YO
Let me understand -- you are saying that causing 20K of credit card damage, plus the inconvenience of correcting credit histories, is a worse crime than a child or person being physically and mentally assulted? Because more people are affected? I doubt many would agree with you.
No. That is not what I am saying. What I said is that crimes against the population on the whole are dealt with more stearnly because they affect the general masses and, as such, errode the fabric of society.
I did not and will not downplay the viciousness of murder or rape, they are horrible crimes. But, these crimes are against individuals and not the community at large. Why do you think that an embezzler gets 20 years while your typical rapist seems to get 7? Why do you think counterfeiters get 20 to life? These are crimes committed against the "state".
$20K worth of damage? I think not. He stole 20,000+ credit card numbers. Let's see...most credit cards carry, say a $5K limit. That means, potentially, he could have done over $100M worth of immediate damage PLUS the effects of ruining a credit rating and the ability to steal an identity. Most people don't know their credit rating or have not requested a copy to even know if they have been compromised.
I have friends who have had their identity "stolen" by credit card theives. Every couple of months, they have to PROVE they didn't by $5K worth of goods. And, while they are waiting for their credit history to clear, they can't do much of anything. They have three kids. Yeah..victimless crime.
Perhaps, (and I'm not wishing it) if such a crime is committed against you, you would realize the significance of it. Imagine not being able to pay your bills because your accounts are frozen. You are late for work and can't pay for gas. You're hungry and can't buy any food because your accounts are frozen (hence no ATM). All this because some little punk thinks its okay to hack into somebody elses computer system for fun or profit. Get the picture?
This does not mean that murder or rape are any less significant or horrendous. I firmly believe such perpetrators should suffer a fate as worse (if not more) than what they caused their victims. It's just these crimes are perceived differently by the lawmakers in this country.
These are the types of crimes that Mitnick was accused of having committed. This little punk, Davis, while only defacing the Army's website committed a similar crime in that he is erroding the foundations of privacy and security people are starting to formulate regarding the internet.
Billions (if not trillions) of dollars (or equivalent) flow through the internet everyday. How can people trust their finances or privacy on the internet if we have to worry about some little script kiddie?
What could potentially happen is that all those companies that fund the internet backbone say enough is enough. What then? Or, they start charging such horrendous fees for access and monitor every packet that is sent? In this litegous society, that is what could eventually happen (severe..but a possibility).
Someone mentioned about my comment or grafitti and how I said it errodes peoples perceptions of a community. Sadly, it does. It was not meant to be a racist statement but some have taken it that way. Think about it. If you knew your site was probably going to be targetted and you're not a security expert with the skills to stop it, would YOU put up a site and have to deal it and the potential PR issues that stem from it (Especially a business).
Cracking is fundamentally wrong and is a criminal act simply because of its impact on so many people. Please recognize it as such.
I know this prick in real life, and he's hacked into my server before (I work for an ISP). Now is my time for revenge. He WAS a member of global hell until recently. He was let off the hook by the FBI, because he turned in fellow G.H. members, and now, some poor kid in Wisconsin is going to jail. His name is Michael Torras. He goes by the nickname of sistom. His phone number is 6388799. Need I remind you the FBI took away his computer equipment? If you would like to contact the FBI guys that have his computer, his ICQ UIN is 12006311. ICQ says the last known IP was 216.192.176.1. We all know script kiddies suck.
his phone number is 9126388799
So now all bets are off if you happen to 'provoke' the FBI? She must have been asking for it, eh?
Like it or not even three-letter agencies are still supposed to uphold the law.
That means they have to follow it- even if criminals (by definition) do not.
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Wisconsin Dells isn't half of the reason WI sux -- in fact, I think it does have something to do with the FIB attitude I got all along the Illinois corner of Wisconsin...
I live in MN now, and 'round here we know that Wisconsin is much more fun to pick on than Iowa because Iowegians either don't care, or generally know when they're outwitted and keep their mouths shut, unlike Wisconsin. I'll be more than happy to take it on the chin for have Jesse Ventura as a governor -- I don't like him, but he ain't Tommy Thompson, either.
I'll be damned if I walk down a hall for a drink of water at a "bubbler", consider Huber Bock to be "fancy" beer, be turned on by the smell of Limburger cheese, or wear Packers colors to think that I'm tough and macho -- the term "gay" happens to be a TLA for Green And Yellow!
- Native Evanstonian (IL), never a Badger.The problem with represenative democracy in our country is that it is lacking one essential element - informed voters. Intelligent votes are literally washed away by a tidal wave of ignorance.
All of the points you mention undoubtable put the fear of into the hearts of government beaurocrats everywhere. However, I as an individual am hardly harmed. If the IRS gets their facts wrong and I underpay, the IRS is at fault, not me. I may have to hire a good lawyer and go to court, but no lasting harm is done. If my only source of information for a recall is a government web page I have to take the trouble to find and dig through, then there are more serious problems with the recall notification procedure than a petty vandal's mucking with the web page.
I am at most inconvenienced by such things. The government, on the other hand, has its power to govern more seriously hampered. Which is why the FBI et. al. are so enthusiastic when the vilify and imprison crackers. It isn't to protect you or I, it is to protect their own base of power. What matter that some clever, foolish children get destroyed by their actions? Intelligent people don't make good (read: docile) citizens anyway.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
gH is a protest group. Hacking has become a tool used by more then just "hackers". It's no longer an MIT world. They are being attacked by the Feds because they are protesting the "man" (both the Feds and corporate america), and they are being attacked by the "geek community" because they are using a simple subset of attacks that originate within said "geek community". why does everyone have to be a hacker to hack? Look at culture jamming, who complains that these "culture jammers" aren't advertising execs?
Larry Mahoney is getting out of jail after 9 1/2 years. He drove with a BAC three times the legal limit and killed 27 people. Granted, the hacking was premeditated, but on the other hand I don't think 27 people died as a result of the web page being down.
The system is set up to fuck you over if you assert your rights. Waive them and gov't will try to make your life easier. That's the way it works. Want a speedy trial on that next traffic violation? REFUSE to sign the ticket. Signing waives your right to a speedy trial. They will handcuff you, arrest you, tow impound your car (which may get vandalized waiting for the tow truck), and toss you in JAIL while you WAIT for a trial. And all of this will be at YOUR expense, even if you are found not guilty. On the other hand, you sign the ticket, waive your rights, go to traffic school (payola for the gov't), pay a fine (more payola) and the gov't will let you go merrily about your way.
Just admit it. Gov't works hard to make sure that its citizens do not want exercise their rights.
I'd have to disagree with it should just be a misdemeanor. Let me give you an example (bit extreme but hey)
:)
Let's say a man trades online, is shorting stock on a tip.. finds out tip is bad and looses everything he's worked for 40 years because he can't get online, and kills himself...
Company pays for Superbowl advertising (however many 100k per sec) and right after airing, a kiddie changes website and company files for bankruptcy...
Hmm.. I guess you should only get community service, you only got 90 people laid off when their company folded, and got somebody to kill themself
Back to reality.. There are very real costs for a website defacement. Have you ever thought the cost of having to take a down a box doing a million dollars worth of e-commerce down; because you have to rebuild the entire box from scratch (I wouldn't trust anybody to not leave a back door). Spend hours/days trying to find where you got in, what other boxes may be compromised.
But hey, all you did was some defacement, my time doesn't cost anything after 2am , my downtime doesn't cost you anything, my company lawyer does this for free, it's free publicity (think off all the free publicity that hotmail got, I'm sure they loved it), customers love to see that we are human too when we take credit card information. Yup you're right it doesn't cost anymore than tagging a street sign.
I'm not for dragging these kiddies out into the street and flogging them (of course it'd be fun to see), but the actual costs of a crack is a whole lot,, when compared to say if my car was stolen and think what kind of punishment grand theft auto gets you.
I see your message and raise you
tsuiter@midusa.net
I do not know of this football of which you speak.
-matt
hello i am a script kiddie (i even got in my jr high school newspaper!!!) and i would like to tell you how to crack into a system in these 8 simple steps
1. spend lots of time on IRC! cuz its fun and l33t! i talk to all of my k00L hacker friends all the time in our password-protected IRC channel. sure i get bad grades in school but thats ok cuz i will just find a job doing tech support where i can IRC from work too!
2. download all of the exploits people mention on IRC
3. download all of the volnurability scannerZ people mention on IRC
5. pick a bunch of systems (or just pick IP's randomly!) and run all of your scanner softwares on it. if everything just times out then their probably behind a firewall cuz they are LAME#!! just move on and use another IP.. or if you want to hit a government sites just download this file GOVT.TXT that lists a tonZ of hi profile government web server IP's and plug it into your scanners
6. when u find a system that has a hole, run the exploits on them! they will give u a root shell!!!!! then u can uze your other l33t scripts to set up trojins and back doors but if u dont know how to do that then just find the web space and mess up they're web page!!!
7. dont worry about getting caught or anything cause everyone running systems is just DUM like they dont know how to fix there security holes so they surly wont be able to track you!!!
----
And you honestly think it takes skill to do this sort of thing? It's nearly impossible for any system administrator to be 100% up to date on all vulnerabilities and patches. Frequently exploits are discovered and released a little while before it's been made aware to the security community. There ARE windows of opportunity there, and they don't necessarily arise out of negligence on the part of the administrator.
I think that crackers ( whether talented or stupid ) should be punished, but I do not think it is right to place them in the same row with vandals or terorists or any other type of real world criminals because the value systems of net and real world are very different. A terorist blowing up a building or a vandal spray painting some kind of national treasure do actual ( often irrepairable or just plain very costly ) damage to real items. A cracker defacing a web site does not do any REAL damage ( unless the sysadmins were so stupid that they do not have backups, in which case they deserve it ). All it takes to put the site back is a restore, and unless the cracker was very persistent it is only a few relatively small files so it doesn't take too much time. The crime in this case would be the disruption of service that he caused. This is another major difference between RW and the Net. The time on the Net is MUCH faster and more valuable then time of RW. A store closed for a day is nothing or not much. A popular web site down for a day is a lot of nuisance/trouble and maybe real damage to people. This guy is not supposed to be tried as a plain criminal. There should be a separate set of laws concerning cyber-crime. Maybe even a separate organization should be handling this instead of standard govermental mechanisms, much like IRS handles tax related issues and INS handles immigration related stuff.
.02$
Just my
Everybody Lies. But it doesn't matter since nobody listens.
No. Cracking is considered a serious crime because of the nature of the crime. It has more ability to affect the general population (i.e let's steal 20K worth of credit card numbers and ruin those peoples credit histories).
Cracking exposes vulnerabilies in systems that people trust implicitly. These systems are often the basis for our way of life. This creates chaos. Murder, rape and other violent crimes affect relatively few (but those it does imparts immeasurable impact). Thus, while they are terrible (I say burn the buggers), most of us still feel safe.
Can't say that's the case when I have to wonder who might be stealing my credit card and making my life a living hell as I try to resolve it.
People liken the crime of cracking to grafitti. Grafitti has been shown to degrade property values in an area. This makes it difficult for people to leave the area without taking a significant hit in the pocketbook. It leaves people with an impression that the area isn't safe or becoming. Only when the communities come together and clean up their neighboorhoods (not always possible), do they regain their sense of pride and safety. So, in my mind, grafitists should be severely punished as well.
Vandalism becomes a felony when the damage done totals beyond a specific amount (usually set by the locale of the act). In Dallas, Tx. vandalism becomes a felony charge when the damage is in excess of $750. I can hardly imagine that ANY defaced webserver would cost LESS than $750 in manhours to repair. seth@sansa.net
There is no "fabric of society". America has become a land of sociopaths who only care when it inconveniences them.
Having no money is societies own excommunication. It is wrong, but I would rather have my family alive and well rather then being a sacrifice to make some jackass feel is money is safe.
privacy and security? My ass. If they do not realize that the internet is neither it is not my problem. They assume it is safe "to assume makes an ASS out of U and ME". To perpetuate a lie simply to make people feel better is sick.
Cracking is wrong, fine. But killing and stealing are quite different. Protecting the Status-quo is the problem. Money protects its own interests (docile, subservient, workers). Anyone who is not their lapdog is a meat by-product.
FIB = F?cking In-Breeders
One would expect the local sheriff to go after vandals.. but no, we have the FBI. There are real crackers out there who have no morals and lots of skillz. They invade privacy and threaten liberty. These are the guys who rm -rf your root directory because they were bored sniffing your box. If the FBI believes that crackers are a threat to national security then they should go after them, not a bunch of punk kids who hack web pages.
How we know is more important than what we know.
he was a socially-inept nerd with no life. learn to get your kicks from something other than "hacking". let this stupid yank rot, see if I care.
'...it is the technology that gives them the ability to cover their tracks enough that you can have a hard time making a criminal case against them," said a senior federal investigator.'
Here we go--blame the technology. There is no personal responsibility anymore, is there? Pretty soon we'll have another 20,000 laws limiting access to technology. Start sending in your donations to the NTA.
I can hear the soccermoms of the world now:
"It's this, easy access to technology, that causes this kind of tragedy..."
"We must put a stop to those evil computer shows!"
"You don't need a computer with 700 mhz!"
"Our children are raised in a culture of technology."
Of course you could replace "technology" with whatever software this punk was using and these quotes might be more plausible. Replace "technology" with "guns" and you see how stupid our government and Sarah Brady really are.
Bring on the bans!
Slashdot: Liberal News for Nerds. Liberal Stuff that Matters.
Prison time is the only "fair" punishment for felony crimes. Fines only affect the poorer citizens. Rich criminals love getting the punishment of just having to pay some money.
Well, did you vomit?
(I realize a subject line isn't a web banner or tag, but it is disturbingly close to your post)
How about four years in the Army for this one?
"Yea, screwing with a web site should be punished, at about the same level as littering. NOT to the same level as murder."
Out of the mouths of babes.....
So basically you're saying I can walk into your house uninvited, deface something in your house, like say, the report you've been working on for the boss for the last six weeks, or that homework paper thats due midterm, and then expect a slap on the wrist for such actions?
Have you no respect for the personal property of
others?
I'm not suggesting "murder" level prosecution, but most CERTAINLY not the slap on the wrist a littering charge would engender.
.. "Doesn't Barbie come with Ken?" "No, she fakes it with him."
Defacing a web site, like grafitti on a wall is hardly a major offence.
But it isn't "like grafitti [sic] on a wall". It's more akin to screwing up traffic lights. You remove links from a web page, you're denying access to resources. Carving your initials in a tree is one thing, dropping that tree across a major highway is another.
Just junk food for thought...
now im not entirely sure about this but wouldnt an effective response to increased hacking be maybe *gasp* better security
"He who laughs last, thinks slowest"
There is no "fabric of society". America has become a land of sociopaths who only care when it inconveniences them.
Cracking is wrong, fine. But killing and stealing are quite different. Protecting the Status-quo is the problem. Money protects its own interests (docile, subservient, workers). Anyone who is not their lapdog is a meat by-product.
Uh huh. Read your own words again. It appears that you may be part of the problem. You are right, the problem is that we are all to self absorbed to worry about each other. Why is that?
To many people are taking the phrase "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" just a bit too far. If I remember correctly, this is from our Declaration of Independence and not the Constitution of the United States.. I also believe there is a phrase in there "to form a more perfect union"...is there not?
You say that cracking is wrong. But killing and stealing are different? How? Are they not all crimes in our society? By saying cracking is just wrong and not criminal, you are setting precedent.
Next, we'll say burglary isn't a crime, they were just passing through your house to get to the other back yard and picked up a few trinkets on the way.
When I was a kid, burglary was a felony that would get you twenty years. Now, that same crime will net you six months to two years in most cases. So, we've gone from a twenty years to less two for the same crime in less than a generation. What's next? Six months for murder? A slap on the wrist for rape? Hmmmm.
By not giving a damn about the society you are contributing to its futher degradation nevertheless and regardless of whether that society is built upon bedrock of common beliefs or a foundation of lies. Like it or not, you are a member of that society. It is what you are.
Congratulations! You have become a contributing member of the status quo.
There are still those in this country that believe in the so called "American Dream". At some point you have to trust in those around you to do the right thing. That's why we have government and laws (no matter how innane some of them might be). They are (in principle anyway), designed to protect the society as a whole and dictate acceptable behavior for all members of that society. For those who deviate outside the acceptable behavior, there are "corrective" actions that can be applied.
If you don't like the way things are working, then take the time out and do something constructive about it rather than whining about how it's not fair or how messed up it is. If you don't like the laws, then lobby to get them changed. Aspire to political office and show the world you really do give a damn and change the law (unlike the majority of the politicians in office). Fight for what you believe in by working to change the system rather than going outside and destroying it. (I am not an advocate for revolution but rather evolution).
Sit on your ass and you're no better than the "meat by-product" that you call everyone else.
So there I think you have it: In honor of these Northern intellectual behemoths, I hereby dub a new eponym upon all who aspire to emulate them - not script kiddies, for scripts say very little about these people and demean an otherwise useful thing; not crackers, which is actually a derogotory name for white folks; no, I think these Wisconsin boys stand for them all: cheese heads. That is what I shall call them henceforth, and I would love to see them immortalized as such in the jargon file someday.
There needs to be a web site / message forum like Slashdot but dealing entirely with local/regional political matters. Something your state and federal representatives wouldn't be afraid to visit and contribute to. Organize the board by geographical area (or whatever political boundaries) and organize threads by issues, complete with informal polls.
Even without a congressperson's presence, it could be a great place to learn about your congressmen, about potential candidates in your area (all we ever hear about is what's on TV -- and that's usually at a national level). WITH a congressperson's presence, it could be an invaluable tool for communication/virtual *conversation* between your representatives and constituents.
Does anything like this exist?
c'mon you know we can't sentince our celebrities to the same extent as regulat people, they are better than us
The difference between this kind of crime and graffiti is that it is a new kind of crime. That means that we can set a new precedence. I think they would try the same thing against people doing graffiti if they could. It is the same reason why beer and cigarretes are legal and marrijuana (sp?) is not.
-- All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. -- Edmund Burke
I think sublime put it best, "Even though he now takes it in the behind, I have no sympathy for men of his kind."
-matt
I would think that if the FBI came to visit me, I would probably take it a bit seriously. Apparently, Mr. Davis didn't and now he's going to spend some time in jail. What's the big deal, some guy who's proven himself to be an idiot is going to the slammer? Don't drop the soap, dude.
You would all be ashamed of you self if you knew zyklon.
kevin is real criminal.. he *crack* for a living.. this one just want to enflate his ego.. (think so)
I'm sorry, but that is just sad. You don't attack the government after they explicitly tell you they are watching. Come to think of it, you don't attack the government at all, unless you happen to be a founding father revolutionary... Rebel without a cause? nah, Rebel without a clue...
"What is now proved was once only imagin'd"
"What is now proved was once only imagin'd"
William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell
I may be wrong here, but I believe the thread is about cracking being perceived as worse than murder/rape/molestation in the eyes of the law these days, at least as evidenced by sentencing.
While I agree completely that it is a crime with the potential to cause a lot of damage and should be punished as such, it can't be compared with these other crimes. I would rather be afraid of a cracker getting a light sentence and going out and causing monetary loss to occur than a murderer to be freed back into society.
Personally, I'd even deal with someone destroying my credit record and causing me to lose large amounts of money if it means that a dangerous sociopath is kept imprisoned, even if said sociopath is nowhere near me. Even if only one person is killed in cold blood because of him, or one woman or child is psychologically scarred for life, it is totally unacceptable.
Money can be recovered, lawsuits can be dealt with in an arguably fair manner. The person who causes such damage to society should be dealt with harshly, but if they are considered more dangerous in the eyes of the law than a person that causes actual, physical, face-to-face harm to other human beings, there is a deep problem in the justice system in this country.
Just my opinion.
Okay... kid is careless, arrogant and stupid, gets his hands on some scripts, finds some security holes, and intentionally pisses off the FBI.
And this is news that he's going to be prosecuted? He might as well have walked into their DC headquarters waving a shotgun around. It'll be news when he *is* the next Mitnick.
* And remember, it's spelled N-e-t-s-c-a-p-e, but it's pronounced "Mozilla."
Why are so many posters defending the government?
:-)
Our government is evil and needs replacing.
Whatever we can do to place more strain on it we should until it collapses. I support rioters in LA and David Karesh's. Just keep on task, dont' destroy your fellow citizens and stick it to the man
This argument is entirely in keeping with FC's manifesto, also known as the Unabomber, read it sometime, its very interesting.
The kids a punk, and deserves what he gets. All t his cracking is really not much different than graffiti you see on buildings. I'm always happy when those guys get caught, and the same with the crackers and wannabe crackers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Most of us still feel safe"?
???
You're kidding, right?
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
While the USA has certainly had its share of dumbing down, have you even entertained the thought that withdrawal from the system might be rational behavior?
It is very, very difficult to effect change without
- large gobs of $$$$$
- massive investments of time
It can be done. But it is painstakingly difficult. And the results can be wiped out with the next election, or by simply turning your back on the rat-fink who is supposed to be "representing" you for too long.Both the characteristic modern parties believed in a government by the few; the only difference is whether it is the Conservative few or Progressive few. It might be put, somewhat coarsely perhaps, by saying that one believes in any minority that is rich and the other in any minority that is mad.
-- G. K. Chesterton, What's Wrong With The World Today
"In the case of physical crime, the gov't does have a somewhat effective response, put more police on the streets. It usually has a very clear impact on crime. They don't have an effective response to increased hacking. Perhaps *you* have an answer?"
How about better security? Even just for my little home network here I use a firewall/gateway system with packet filtering and network rules setup, just so that I can dial into the internet (and share the dial up with a few other computers).
All internal ip addresses are on a private ip range, I use a 5port switch instead of a hub, all incoming ports are blocked etc etc.
It may not be impossible for someone to break into my network or one of my workstations, but it'd be a hell of alot harder than the public sites that are getting cracked all the time.
Simple things like using switches on your network, portforwarding access to public services instead of just sticking a box right on the unsecured connection to the internet, using secure operating systems and services (i.e. not using IIS with frontpage extensions), monitoring sites like Security Focus to keep up on the latest exploits and patches etc.
If I can invest a little time and energy into securing my home dialup connection, there's no excuse for public businesses, and govt. agencys with public servers on the internet to not do the same.
You're right. The feds will, theoretically, get better at catching these sort of "criminals." Of course, we might also assume that these same sort of "criminals" will get better at the criminal activities that they are participating in. Therefore, the feds will not only have to "catch-up" (i.e., improve their crime-fighting skills enough to catch criminals of the "caliber" that is present now), they'll also have to push themselves far enough so that they are capable and ready for future, more advanced, and "harder" attacks.
I'd say the feds have got a bunch of work to do. "Go get 'em, boys"
(cliche, I realize, but I felt the __urge__... oooo... be frightened)
Insert mind here.
Murder, rape, and child molestation are far more serious crimes, and deserving of far more punishment than fscking up someone's web page.
Crackers should be treated more like kids who spraypaint their crap on walls. For messing things up, their punishment is to clean things up. Give crackers shovels and put 'em out to clean up the subway walls, or interstate embankments.
You've got to be kidding.
If (you break the law) then
Go to jail
I want to see YOU behind bars the next time you drive a mile above the speed limit, liter or whatever.
These are minor crimes, akin to grafiti with washoff paint. Get a clue (or a life)
But I personally think all these cracked sites can be very funny. The army one is kinda lame, but when varsityblues.com was cracked, I was laughing my ass off. I guess I didn't see the point in making a movie based on the hardships of being popular in high school.
-Some Anonymous Coward
"I'm not an actor, but I play one on TV."
So if you don't walk around in a suit of armour it's your fualt that when I hit you with a lump hammer you get hurt. That makes sense. Wait a minute......? Can anyone spot the flaw in this entire thread. Think of it the humanist way...do unto others as you would have them do unto you. You leave my website alone and I'll not touch yours....break my site, I break your face. Fairs fair.
I'll bet you'd 'voluntarily' wave your rights to anything, Mr. SmartAss, after spending the same amount of time in solitary confinement. The treatment of Kevin Mitnick has gotten the attention of human rights organizations, and no, it isn't because they support cracking, it's because the US government violated basic, inalienable rights in their treatment of Kevin Mitnick. Oh, and what "gang" did the Feds have to keep away from Kevin when they shipped him away? More rationalizing bullshit from another clueless "law-n-order" freak.
just reading the comments on this article is like really [mind expanding?]. there are mainly two totally different perspectives on this subject, that are both totally legit, but go contradict each other so much.
#1 being that you believe that the kids should get what they deserve for being stupid
#2 being that the server's are stupid for not checking
alot of educated-looking people have posted stuff supporting both of these view points.
just felt like sharing that
SuPz.orG
I thought the guy was 19, around my age.
The guy was warned by the FBI that they where cracking down on their group.
But what does he do, he lash's out and hacks a web site.
I agree with your last point, but isn't that just what Chad did. He declared war on a group he didn't like.
I don't dig crackers who try and boost their own ego by defacing other peoples property.
Scatterd shower's my arse - Noah
Is Chad going to be placed in solitary confinement until he "voluntarily waives" his rights to preliminary hearings, like Kevin?
Is Chad going to be charged in the farthest point away from WI, in the continental US, like Bill Cheek?
Is Chad going to have to rot in a "pre-trial" facility for 4.25 years until he "voluntairly pleads" to some of the charges?
Have the Feds created $multimillion in damages yet?
Yea, screwing with a web site should be punished, at about the same level as littering. NOT to the same level as murder.
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
The morons at the FBI actually thought I was one
of the leaders in this group, that I hadn't ever
heard of before, because some complete MORON at
Internet America (www.iadfw.net) in the abuse
dept. has a personal grudge against me, they took
my computers and said they needed them for
evidence, now, 6 months later, I haven't heard
anything from the FBI or anyone else about my
computers. This goes back to the story the other
day about the FBI keeping peoples computers...
I just wish the FBI had more of a clue, or would
understand that they're taking on way more than
they can handle, it's like someone said the other
day, the 'war on hax0rs' is like the 'war on drugs'
they can't win simply because of the number of people
hacking/cracking/being script kiddies, and they spend
so much time harassing the people who didn't do
anything that they don't even notice the people who
are.
Just because you disagree doesn't make it offtopic or flamebait.
I think an important distinction needs to be made here. Individuals not securing their property take their chances but in the end what they do has no bearing on other people. Government and banking institutions have a responsibility that comes with the position to secure their data. I have no sympathy for script kiddies as well, but I do find the lack of attention to security rather disturbing.
Let's not confuse things.
...
1) The bank and it's employees should be liable because they did not fulfill their responsibilities properly.
2) The bank robbers should also be liable, because they took the money.
The problem is when you try to weigh the relative responsibility. If it was easily predictable that the money would be taken, then the bank and its responsible people, if any, should be totally 100% liable.
If it is on a busy street next to an elementary school, the students there have been tempted unfairly.
Adults are expected to act in an adult manner, even in the face of temptation. This may not be realistic, but it is what is expected.
Persons intermediate in age between elementary school children and adults should be treated in an intermediate manner.
Problems:
1) How can you hold an abstract entity, like a company, responsible? (Possible solution, band together in groups to hire lawyers, etc.)
2) So the kids were unfairly tempted? So what! If you don't teach them about consequences, they'll never learn. (Counter argument: children need to be protected from the serious results of bad decisisons. They need appropriately graded challenges and rewards/punishments.)
3)
There doesn't seem to be a clear-cut point here, except:
a) The officials should be held responsible (i.e., face the consequences of having created and maintained an attractive nuisance, at minimum. If they are more culpable, then they should be punished equally with the other criminals.)
b) SOME punishment should be inflicted on the infringers (tresspassers, graffitti "artists", whatever happened)
BUT
most of the "officials" are probably incompetent, and those who are not were likely not to be in positions where they were allowed to make and implement decisions...
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Global Hell - ah, so that's what it stands for. Of course. I always wondered what that symbol for David Geffen was all about.
So in other words if you happen to forget to lock the door to your abode I can feel free to walk out with your computer, tv set or anything else that catches my eye? What was your address?
People need to learn that computers are personal property and you are tresspassing if you do not have authorization to enter. Finding a security hole in a computer is like finding a broken window in a house. Sure, you are able to gain access to the house, but you are tresspassing if you do so. Yes, the owner should make every attempt to fix the broken window once it is discovered, but that still doesn't give you the right to enter.
Actually, you are half right. I think the issue here is whether the authorities will sentance fairly (all assuming the guy's guilty *cough*) or whether they'll try to make another punitive example of somebody who may still have some redeemning qualities.
--Remove SPAM from my address to mail me
Take into account the following 2 quotes:
""It is not that these are super whiz kids; it is the technology that gives them the ability to cover their tracks enough that you can have a hard time making a criminal case against them," said a senior federal investigator."
"like Davis, who are relatively brazen and unskilled, according to federal law enforcement officials and computer security experts."
If they are so unskilled how did they crack so many, high profile sights? Is the security that bad, or do they expect us to believe that these crackers have in their possession "SuperDooper" powerful software that cracks the excellent security in place on these servers.
I think everybody agrees, this schmuck is not going to get a whole hell of a lot of sympathy :-)
* And remember, it's spelled N-e-t-s-c-a-p-e, but it's pronounced "Mozilla."
Nice to compare a script kiddie to three mass murderers & a mail bomber. Let's see...
Folks listed above...approximately 11,900,167 deaths / script kiddie 0 deaths
Not exactly the same league.
If he cracked the site, he should be punished, but let the punishment fit the crime.
Pol Pot died under house arrest for his mass murders. A web site cracker should get, what, a fine, maybe some community service & probation. Let's keep this in perspective, here.
Think like a person of action, act like a person of thought. --H. Bergson
It is no doubt that what these kids are doing is wrong.
However they are being penalized for breaking and entering/destruction of gov property
when the crime is more akin to
Grafiti
With easy to wash off/non destructive paint
It's not crime/nocrime but the fact that the USGOV, in lieue of installing proper security (no firewalls at my gov site!) is putting it's efforts into something it understands: Harrasing civilians.
(I would PAY for a
Am I the only one to be tired of hearing about script kiddies in the news ? I mean there are so many more interesting people doing constructive things with their time that I am amazed with the media's fascination with "crackers". I could understand if the person had found some new and obscure bug that no one else had noticed, ok that would be minor news but the fact that some script kiddie broke into a military site *again* is hardly new worthy. And the worst part of this whole thing is the image the computer industry gets from this, I don't know how many times I had friends who don't know anything about computers ask me if I can break into some computer site for them. Is anyone else tired of all these "cracker" stories ?
Vidi, vici, veni. (I saw, I conquered, I came)
Crap. Don't try to dignify anti-social behavior as "protest". The whole point of culture jamming is to gain a voice in media that ordinary people (read: not rich) are shut out of. Most folks can't afford a billboard, a 30 second TV commercial or even a half page ad in the local newspaper. Virtually anyone can get their content onto the web however, and could probably even do it for FREE if they talked to enough people. And if no one wants to hit gHell's web site to drink of their wit and wisdom, well cry me a river... Everyone should be guaranteed the right to speak their mind, but NOBODY has the right to be guaranteed an audience! Let's face it, by hijacking a web site these dolts are forcing people (however briefly) to view something that they had no intention of viewing, as well as denying those people whose sites are hacked the right to express their own views. And don't even start with that "The MAN has no rights because he's so bad" crap: Free speech means free to everyone, else it ain't free now, is it?
...disciplining the ronkeys since 3/2000...
You left out one serious change effector:
See, the "large gobs of $$$" thing is one of the things we're supposed to get mad about, and throw the bastards out for. But it doesn't work when so many people (especially 18-35) give up on the process.
The other forms of protest are wonderful, but they can be repelled by force of law, unless more people like you continue to assert their right to vote, and continue to work for change within the process.
That's how Burma keeps its citizens down, BTW; by doing a buttload of horrible acts to ensure that they feel just like you do -- powerless. By comparison, it's a cakewalk for you to change your government; just continue to be as smart as you are, but be noisier.
_____
The antidote to bad speech is not censorship, but more speech.
that most people don't automatically get a "throw the guy in jail, or just kill him for that matter" approach to the subject. It seems that past polls on such controversial subjects have produced comments I could not believe!
He might have done something stupid, but he still has rights! Still, what he did was kinda lame, and he deserves a punishment, just not a big one!
"Code free or die!"
I don't know how much of this sentiment is still around. It's kinda dumb when you think about it - these people are bringing in lots of money, so be nice.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
Cann your home insurance and file a theft claim. And tell them you left the front door unlocked. See what they say. Sane with auto insurance companies. If you're ripped off for being stupid, they'll compensate you less, if at all. Blame is not something that rests all on you or all on the thief, but a question of who bears what percentage of the blame.
What would you expect to happen if your wife parked your new convertible Ferrari on the street in the middle of Watts and left it there over the weekend. Would you feel 100% relaxed and not worry because 'the law' says the theifs bear all of the guilt? Would you place zero blame on your wife? I wonder.
Yeah, right. Charle Manson had skill, and Al Capone had skill too.
Doesn't matter if you are dumb or smart, just don't break the law!
More like, you should check to see if your door has a lock in the first place. And if you don't bother to look to see if the windows have latches, the negligence is entirely yours.
Quoted from the article:
"...like Davis, who are relatively brazen and unskilled, according to federal law enforcement officials and computer security experts.
"It is not that these are super whiz kids; it is the technology that gives them the ability to cover their tracks enough that you can have a hard time making a criminal case against them," said a senior federal investigator. "
So he didn't have any mad skills, but he walked all over government servers?! Is this an advertisment that govermnet servers have poor admins and no security?
Fix the servers!! Stop wasting my money chasing script kiddies around the internet and make the server safe from all but the truely skilled hackers.
- A.P.
--
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
Come to my website, and click on the ads to support the Free Chad cause! Also, visit my other sites:
"People for Pol Pot"
"Save the Unibomber"
"Free McVeigh"
"Heritics for Hitler"
All the money I make will go to these worthy cause, I promise!
"What is now proved was once only imagin'd"
"What is now proved was once only imagin'd"
William Blake, The Marriage of Heaven and Hell
Well said, mattc.
So another script-kiddie acts like he is god and gets caught.
Big smegging deal!
Throw him in jail with all the other criminals, and let's move on to more important / worthwhile topics.
What if I just walk through your neighborhood checking each door and window to see if there's a forgotten lock or latch? Or maybe you didn't roll the window on your car all the way up and with a piece of wire I can easily get the lock open?
But I'm not evil. I wouldn't steal your car; just take it for a ride and piss in the interior before I leave.
But maybe you're careful but your family isn't. Perhaps the gas cap on your mother's car doesn't have a lock and I can pour sugar into the tank.
Think carefully about what you're saying. It's corny but in essence time is money and having to rebuild a server after compromise is expensive.
AC
Agreed. Violent criminals should rank higher on the FBI's lists than mere vandals, even computerized ones.
And, your suggestion for punishment is a good one, IMO. The ego-driven cracker/vandal would be appropriately punished in a way that diminishes their prestige and matches the crime.
Meanwhile, there would be room in the prisons for longer sentences for murderers and rapists... Unfortunately, those evil pot-smokers are sucking up so many cells as to make this cracker problem vanishingly small.
Geeky modern art T-shirts
FIB!!!
another case to make hackers look like the bad guys. I can respect people that hack sites to point out security problems and make a political stance, but hacking a site just to poster inappropriate messages on the splash page and so you can brag to your little prepubescent friends is just enough.
while the hack/non-hack of hotmail the other day was a welcome and necessary hack (I only use hotmail with PGP), this little turd who just wants the attention his parents didn't give him isn't worth the electrons that are flying at my eyes as I read what I'm posting.
This kid is class A1 STUPID! When you are under investigation from the FBI you should not be hacking into government computers to get back at them DOH! Oh well, I guess this is an example of Darwinism. Put another criminal behind bars.
~Billkr
...at all the script kiddies since mitnick is basically a done deal......
Remember this...no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn....(jim morrison)
I laughed hard and then started to worry that you might be serious. Whew... no such page
~Billkr
I agree. There are very few rude, fat, smelly, ugly, obsessive people that are computer literate in WI. I'm happy to be one of them.
Don't you mean BUILD the server after comprimise?
The real cost to most of these break-ins, BECAUSE they are performed by script-kiddies, is not
the cost to REBUILD anything but the cost to
BUILD the server as it should have been build in
the first place, SECURELY.
First, defacing websites is a crime - duh. But it shouldn't be a felony to do so - it should be a misdemeanor just like the realworld equivalents of "damage to property" and "vandalism". The government is deathly afraid of a medium that it can't control - which neatly explains the outrageous legislation being passed right now.
Second, this story will get sensationalized. Again, another obvious "duh!". The media loves scaring people - and the idea of some guy involved in a hacker crime ring hell bent on overthrowing the evil capitalistic system will be raised no less than 2^32 times. Jesse Burst may even comment on it.
Third, the you're-guilty-otherwise-they-wouldn't-have-arreste d-you dogma will also come to bear in the next few hours on slashdot. May I remind you that unless you disagree with the constitution - it's guilty until proven innocent.
I would also like to point out that the "setting an example" method of enforcing laws has been proven to be ineffective. We legislated the death penalty.. and the murder rate didn't change. We took it away.. the murder rate didn't change. That is one example, but their are case studies replete with more.
So what does this accomplish? It gives law enforcement good publicity (makes them look like they're doing their job instead of snacking down donuts and violating people's civil liberties), and it gives everybody the shaft because it's one less right that you have in our legal system.
constructive criticism appreciated - flames to /dev/null.
--
Oh great, now we can have MORE web pages peppered with stupid "Free Kevin!" and now "Free Chad!" .gif files.
Get a life. This kid is a dork script kiddee, and Mitnick wasn't much above that. They both get what they deserve, and I"ve got no sympathy for them.
Before anyone else jumps on the 'Free whoever' bandwagon, I URGE you to read Erik Bloodaxe's final editorial in Phrack magazine. It speaks volumes about idiots like Mitnik and Chad Whazizface.
If any of the steps fail, try some place else.
Obviously, this breaks several laws and someone has to clean up the resulting mess. In real life you also have several more risks which are not present in a script, but then cracker scripts also do not include the risks of getting caught nor do they tell you the penalties of attacking computers. Most crackers also have no idea of how much paid time the sysadmins will have to waste to clean up a mess, nor the bandwidth expense of their scanning.
Basically, just because you can do something does not mean that you should do it. So a vandal got caught. Good, make him pay restitution and add enough additional penalties to teach him to not do it again (merely requiring restitution just means "only break something if you can afford to pay for it if you get caught", which does not help with restitution for the things which are not proven to be due to him.
http://www.attrition.org/mirror/a ttrition/gh.html
...
Bitchslapped? Give Rob a bitchslap from bitchslapped.com.
Mitnick had good social skills, but he was a freak show at the same time. I think the punishment he has received is harsh, but he knew what he was doing. I really have not seen anything that has impressed me from him though.
Let the punishment fit the crime. How would you punish a grafitti vandal?
You know how the media loves fodder to blow everything out of proportion, so the mindless masses can say "oh computers are evil"? Its people like these that help the media procreate this steriotype that the internet is a hole of fraud, trechery, and deception. But the don't see it for what it can be, the greatest information resource on the planet.
JediLuke
JediLuke
-Do or Do Not, There is no Try
Our University mail server was DoS'd yesterday. Thanks to our NFS mounting scheme, it eventually stalled our central unix system (all new connections at least--if you were already on you were ok for the most part). From what I understand, the FBI has been notified. What does this mean to hackers? Don't fsck with someone that's bigger and badder than yourself unless you want one hell of a headache! Hackers be warned!!!
Nope.
Private property is private property.
Stealing is theft.
Trespassing is trespassing.
There shouldn't be a need for draconian security measures, any more than people should be blamed if some drunk comes by and shouts into their bedroom window at night.
There are clear thresholds laid out. It could be as simple as a logon prompt that states you're entering a private area and do not have permission. There doesn't need to evev be a password prompt beyond that for you to be breaking the law if you proceed.
Why does this not seem obvious to all? Could it be because there are a lot of moral cripples out there on the net?
GO PACK! SUPERBOWL !! WOOT!! FARVE KICKS ALL YO HAX0R BUTTS ps. HACK THE PLANET!
So I can throw a grenade at your house since you are the one to blame for not living in a bunker.
Think about it, we have the right to shoot people
if they are not wearing a bullet proof jacket.
Free Pol Pot ! Free the mass killers !
The only thing lamer than all the cracking that's been going on is the over-coverage of it by our hysterical news media. I think this is a response to an utter lack of anything interesting or useful to say about the future or computer technology.
Ok, so Chad Davis is no Kevin Mitnick, but by shrugging off what happens to him -- stupid insignificant grafiti-loving brat that he is, we're saying that the government should incarcerate for electronic breaking and entering as though it were the same crime as 1st degree murder.
Is electronic breaking and entering without actual destruction of data really a high crime? Chad Davis didn't cost the govt anything but its pride. He destroyed nothing, and took nothing with him when he left, just left his tag behind. He cost them system down time probably, but what else?(Correct me if I'm wrong about this one.)
Don't get me wrong, the kid IS a criminal--but I wouldn't send him to the pokie to be raped daily by violent offenders for the next 20 years of his life in the hopes that someone else will remember it and think better of cracking. People who crack IMHO will NOT care -- and the really young kids who do it will simply idealize the incident.
Of course you won't. You know that there are Bad People out there. Regardless of who is as fault when a breakin occurs, you want to prevent the breaking from happening. It's why you don't flash lots of cash in bad neighborhoods. It's why you lock your car when you park it. You know that if you act st00pid and fail to modestly protect yourself that you will be victimized. Web sites are no different.
You called the FBI because you don't know how to set up NFS properly? Gimme a break.
Don't get me wrong, the person who cracked your mail server should be caught and punished, but what they did is not made any worse by your poor NFS choices.
Hackers be warned, indeed. Probably the reason they could fsck with Mr. Bigger and Badder here in the first place is that his mail server was as half-assed configured as his NFS cluster.
"It is not that these are super whiz kids; it is the technology that gives them the ability to cover their tracks enough that you can have a hard time making a criminal case against them," said a senior federal investigator.
It's about time the media started relaying this crucial bit of information. These gimps are nothing more than IRC script/packet kiddies that were shown how to use a few of those l33t exploits that appear every week or two.
They're not smart (obviously in this case); they aren't "skilled members of the hacker community." They're CHILDREN that aren't supervised enough by their parents.
The kids deserve what they get, and their parents deserve to be held accountable for the monetary damages.
I mean how stupid can you be? If you're going to break into a government system, don't do it straight from your dialup account! Again, he deserved it. I have no sympathy. In fact, I just wish the number of arrests for this type of thing (including more of the DoS-type of attacks) increased by an order of magnitude.
Everyone knows that the only secure computer is one that is not connected to the Internet, and everyone knows that any house can be broken into, or car can be stolen, if the thief is really determined. Bottom line, this kid (although he is 19 years old, so he should know better) commited a crime and should be punished appropriately. This is definately not on the same level as murder, rape, etc... and I don't want to see prison space filled up by script kiddies while we have to release dangerous criminals. So maybe they can give him community service or something. Just get it over with quick so we don't waste too much time or money.
Based on what I know, briefly... The FBI told him they were on to him & his group. He went out of his way to taunt them by defacing a military site. For that, HE'S NOT GONNA GET JUST A SLAP ON THE WRIST.
Simply defacing a site, who cares? I mean, anyone in the world should have a tape backup somewhere that they can grab and restore. When you start talking gov't & military sites, though, the action is taken much more seriously. Just like if you spray paint something on a building, that's vandalism, but if someone spraypainted something on the Vietnam Memorial, they'ed be lynched either in or out of jail...
ix the servers!! Stop wasting my money chasing script kiddies around the internet and make the server safe from all but the truely skilled hackers.
Why should all our tax dollars go to build a bigger cage to keep overgrown children from wandering in and breaking things?
If anything, the dollar a day labor these creeps make in prison pressing out license plates should be contributed toward "fixing the server" as you put it.
For those that invariably keep repeating that punishments for computer crimes seem excessive compared to other violent crimes, WRITE YOUR CONGRESSMEN.
If you folks would spend HALF the time actually writing letters as you do whining on Slashdot, I'm tempted to say we'd see a difference in the behaviors of some of our congressmen and thus, our nation.
I bring this up every once in a great while, and every time I get somebody responding that says I'm naive, that our government isn't OUR government at all, but acts in its own best interests (which, "obviously," aren't our own). Do you have any idea how many letters your congressmen get? I know my state representatives somehow find time to individually read and respond to my letters in just a few days. My national representatives usually have somebody else going through the mail first, but each of my letters have been hand-signed and written *by* the person I wrote (and yes, I can tell the difference between an aide-written letter and one written by The Man himself). If these guys can find the time to do this sort of thing in addition to their duties as our state and nation's lawmakers, perhaps they aren't hearing enough from their constituents? Hell, most (all?) of them now have e-mail addresses that are given just as much priority as postal messages.
I wish you doomsayers would stop sulking under this dark cloud of opression and figure out that this is YOUR government. These are YOUR elected leaders. Do you guys honestly believe that each of your elected leaders just somehow automatically get inducted into some secret club hell-bent on destroying the lives of the citizens that elected them in the first place?
This kid is *NOT* 'the next kevin'.
He has about as much in common with Kevin Mitnick as Steve Jobs (they were both 'hackers', get it?).
======================. http://www.nsacom.net | ======================'
Since when did Kevin Mitnick deface .gov web sites?
I fail to see any similarities.
======================. http://www.nsacom.net | ======================'
Hacking/Cracking just happens to be a hot button issue now.Mitnick was stupid so's this latest one but the feds seem to go way overboard with this stuff. They seem *awfully* sensitive when it comes to *their* stuff but they have no problem at all with making the internet a place devoid of privacy. Didn't the FBI block access to an entire satellite because they were unable to tap it? This stuff is waaay ridiculous. They should provide the respect that they expect given to them. We've got some nasty laws on the books and the FEDS keep getting worse. When's it gonna stop?
Oh I see, the similarity is going to be when this kid gets put in the hole for almost 4 years too.
======================. http://www.nsacom.net | ======================'
No, but the words "due process" do.
:)
6th amendment, perhaps?
I believe that is where the "presumption of innocence" falls, but I am not certain as I am no Constitutional lawyer. Once I'm off work, I'll be sure to ask my friend who is
No Longer a Menace to Society.
Alexandria Morrigan born 2/22/01 l. 20.5in wt. 7 lbs. 5 oz.
Stupid
I find it amusing and revealing how everyone feels the need to call him a script kiddie. Why do you call him a script kiddie, do you know anything about this person? Of course you don't. Is a 19 year old a kiddie? You see someone do something which you are unable to do, so you feel the need to rationalize your lack of knowledge as "oh it was just a script kiddie, he was just using scripts and knows nothing. Of course I could do that if I wanted to".
I always wondered what FIB meant.?
This is a response to the dork somewhere in the earlier posts that said "Cracker == Hacker...get over it." Before you open your big yap again, read the link below. Before you put up more stupid "Free Kevin" and "Free Chad" banners, follow this link. Scroll to the bottom. READ Erik Bloodaxe's final farewell to the -real- hacking scene. See, people like Mitnik or this Chad dork deserve what they get. They aren't hackers of ANY calibre, and they have nothing but arrogance on their side. The term "hacker" actually had some real meaning once. It didn't refer to mindless vandalism, nor did it refer to leaving racial epithets on someone's voicemail box. Here's a clue: you aren't a hacker. No one is anymore. The genre is dead for all purposes. All we have now are 'l33t h@x0r wannabes armed with scripts, stupid mottos and hugely inflated egos. Read this. Catch a glimpse of what was ONCE the hacking scene. Notice how it doesn't involved idiots like Kevin Mitnik. http://www.phrack.com/search.phtml?view&article=p4 8-2
Actually, since there seems to be a severe deterioration of our sense of ethics as a society, it seems it's become necessary to make an example of a few of the morally crippled people who can't tell right from wrong.
Most of us can tell the difference between right and wrong. Those who can't must either be taught, or if that proves impossible, be coralled in somewhere so they can't continue to do damage to others.
The one part that I am behind is the punishment for this crime. It should not be anything near what a "real" crimminal desirves. He should get a big-ass fine and maybe some minimal time in a minimum security place.
That's my opinion.
---
"Who pill da cubby custar?"
--
If I actually could spell I'd have spelled it right in the first place.
What gives anyone the right to gain unauthorized access to someone elses home or computer? This isn't just about some script kiddie. It's about lawlessness and anarchy. How many of you actually think it's okay to run a stop sign because "nobody's coming" (oops..didn't see that jogger) or drive through a residential neighboorhood at 11 PM with your windows open blasting 1000 watts of pure bass for all to hear? Same thing. Lawlessness.
Is it okay for someone to check to see if your front door is unlocked and just walk in, look around, and do whatever they want?
People scream about privacy and how the gov't is allowed to invade ours. How is what this punk did any different? Don't people have a resonable right to privacy and intrusion? At least the gov't has the law on their side and have to account for their actions.
Burn the little punk. Let him become the girlfriend of a 300lb cellmate named Bubba.
I personally think that anyone toying with anyone elses server should know it's illegal in any shape form or fashion, therefore it's time to pay the piper. Its cool to code/hack/etc, but when you take it to a criminal level on a constant basis or any basis for that matter, anyone in their right mind should not look at mindphsr as a martyr.
I've been on the scene for a few years and have seen people come and go and to compare criminals is petty. Has anyone forgotten that Kevin too is a criminal? He was no great hacker... Just someone who engineered info from other hackers, got caught, and every single damn hacker cried foul. All respect due to some members of global Hell which are actually cool, but mindphsr isn't someone script-kiddies worldwide should worship.
elite script kiddie sploit
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This government does not want people. They want good little citizens out spending their money.
The reason they take this badly is because it makes them look like asses. Which regardless, they are.
They are in a position to do whatever they want. It is like a legal lynch mob.
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong." - Voltaire
If the legal system takes the stance that unless you take adequate precautions any theft or damage done to your property is not a crime chaos will ensue. Any legal prohibitions against theft or intrusion will be moot since by definition if you've been intruded on you didn't take adequate precautions against that particular intruder.
You put a dead bolt on your door and religiously lock it, you make sure all your windows are closed and locked. I throw a brick through your window and steal your prized lint collection. Since you had the audacity to have windows on your dwelling you are therefore not worthy of being protected by the law. I walk away without a blemish on my record.
The truth is just about all computers exposed to the internet at large take adequate precautions to justify protection. Unless they leave the site up without password protection and post notices that intrusion is explicitly allowed they're afforded protection by the law.
Insurance companies and the stock holders are of course entitled to more stringent measures. If a lack of these more stringent measures results in theft of services and intellectual property or a loss of service then they are entitled to make the company pay. They do this by either not honouring their insurance policy or dumping their stock and deflating the value of the company. The company is still entitled to seeing any criminals rot in jail.
To borrow and extend a rather colourful phrase from Neal Stephenson's Cryptonomicon: If you don't want to be the wife of the convict with the most cigarettes, don't do the crime.
First off you know jack from adam about Kevin...
Kevin was a very good social engineer who had 0-day skills... Now DarkDante is a different story altogether... Mitnick sucked so get over it.
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I agree that the "setting an example" method of enforcing laws has generally failed for violent crime/ordinary property crime, but in that case the criminals on average (a) are not particularly intelligent, and (b) don't have a potentially bright future to contrast with a life of prison and probation.
:)
Script kiddies, on the other hand, are generally pretty intelligent kids with potentially bright futures. "Setting an example" may well work with them.
Oh, and the words "innocent" and "guilty" appear nowhere in the U.S. Constitution.
--
So, has The Washington Post been slashdotted or h4x0red?
Sites on the internet are not secure. Servers connected to the internet are not secure. If the government was reading their own damn C2 security specifications they would know that any computer with a network connection is in violation of those standards. Hacking a web site is more like defacing a newspaper headline in a public box, than it is like breaking into a bank or even shooting someone. The box _can_ be opened through legal means accessible to anyone who knows that a quarter makes the lever work. What I see happening here is that people who are smart enough to figure these things out will now be targeted, and watched, and harassed, _just_for_that_reason_ and not because they present an actual threat to anyone. National security my ass! If the pentagon's missile launch control computers were accessible through the internet and some terrorist set them off, do you think they would spend a lot of time (with whatever was left of civilization) tracking down the terrorist and punishing them? Or would they blame the Pentagon for being a bunch of idiots? Take a guess . . .
I monitor several servers and I spend too much time firing off emails to sysadmins about scanning scripts running agaminst various subnets. They don't have to crack machines for it to be a pain in the ass. If a machine is running wide open and gets cracked it's a lesson learned but one that isn't necessarily deserved.
AC
s/wandering in/breaking out/
"Why should all our tax dollars go to build a bigger cage to keep overgrown children from breaking out and breaking things?"
Build cages around your computers or your children -- it's your choice. You can use judgement in individual cases -- it's allowed.
Jim
There is something suspicious about this. I have a feeling that the government sites are left unprotected on purpose (well, except for some excellent backup logging software). I think they actually want people to break in. They let script kiddies break in and then bust them. Then in the mean time the Department of Justice is saying that they need to strengthen internet surveillance to stop the new breed of criminals that are breaking into computers ... and now they have the proof that the threat exists!
When you show me some evidence that the government is blatantly violating his constitutional rights, I'll be happy to join the "Free Chad" movement.
But everything I've heard so far indicates that he's just some arrogant script kiddie who couldn't take a hint that when the FBI comes to your house with a warrant, it's time to stop doing whatever you were doing that made them come in the first place. Not only did he break the law, but he was also a complete moron in his manner of doing it.
He deserves whatever he gets.
Having spent the last 22 years in Green Bay I must say that this kid should be put away. He's ruining our city's reputation as technically illiterate folk who only drink beer, eat brats, and watch anything and everything Packer related.
Seriously though, this surprised me when I heard this on the news. We're not a very technical town at all, and I'm sure now half the population of Green Bay (both of them) will be all worried that this kid (or someone else) is gonna hack into their computer while they're tying in Word. The ISP's in Green Bay don't help the cause any either. But hey, at least we have our Packers!
... and this rocket scientist stepped over it by at least a mile. Lock him up as an example to the Kansas school board: natural selection WORKS.
...and I'm sure you too came to Wisconsin Dells every summer for vacation to waste your money on the huge ass tourist trap that is the dells, just like every other person from IL!
btw, im from IL and now live in WI, and still love IL more than WI... just that working in the dells for a summer changes your views.
I don't have any sumpathy for this guy. The defense department as much as we may dislike it does many things of great importance to us. I hope he gets a harsher sentence than most others would. Interfering with national defense is not a laughing matter.
.. at the number of goodie-woodies in here.
The kid's skills are not the issue. How he cracks is irrelevant.
When dissent is outlawed, only outlaws will dissent. What happens when dissent is irrelevant? When dissent is a product, bought and sold, remanufactured semi-annually, churned, massaged and resonated in the public's memory, what does dissent mean then? When our government is a fabulous and absurd spectacle, where dishonesty is the norm and no one ever even questions it?
What does free speech mean in such an environment?
And you wonder why young people are so restless?
We are persecuting this kid for the equivalent of graffiti (actually it's less harmful than that).
This is a misdemeanor at best, not some sort of horrible crime. Go ahead and believe the corporate propaganda. They want you to.
support gun control: take guns from cops
Look, I vote.
I write my congress-ppl whenever portions of my government do something that alarms me.
When I get no reply or a form letter, I go on to vote against that person in the next election.
That's what I'm supposed to do, right?
So why doesn't it work? When I wrote my congress-ppl to tell them to lay off Steve Jackson Games, I don't remember the Secret Service saying, "Well, we thought you were aiding and abetting computer crime, but that letter from that Mundstock fellow straightened us out in a hurry. Why, if more citizens performed their civic responsibilities with his diligence..."
I do everything htat they tell us to do in high-school civics, and I see no effect at best.
No, I don't honestly believe that all of our elected leaders get secretly inducted into the "Let's Destroy the Lives of Our Citizens" club, but I'm beginning to wonder...
I have yet to see people in my government, even people in my government that I am ostensibly a constituent of, act in my interests over the interests of the people that donate scads of $$$ to their elections. If that's how democracy is supposed to work, I can't afford it.
As far as ol' what's-his-name goes, IF he is proven guilty, it would be of poor taste and stupidity. God knows I had poor taste and I was stupid when I was 19. The last thing he and script kiddies like him need is the Fedz coming down on him like they did Kevin Mitnick. After all, one of those script kiddies might grow up to become the next (insert name of 'leet hacker/coder/open source operating system guru here)
Okay, rant off. You ppl in the NSA reading this, go ahead and take me away, I really don't care anymore.
No Longer a Menace to Society.
Alexandria Morrigan born 2/22/01 l. 20.5in wt. 7 lbs. 5 oz.
He has about as much in common with Kevin Mitnick as Steve Jobs (they were both 'hackers', get it?).
No I don't get it, what's the point?