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New Flat Screens From Apple
Hah! Apple has announced a new flat screen.
Colm@TCD sent us the linkage but check
out the numbers: 1600x1024 (same as a widescreen TV, or the SGI flat
panels) but its 22 inches! Holy yummyness batman! Bet ya gotta mortgage your home. (insert sounds of drooling here)Update: 09/03 08:50 by H :We originally touched on this while talking about the G4
Actually if you post a message of over a certain length (i think its 10000 characters) it is automagically given +1 to its score. So its probably not someone just being stupid with moderator points but rather someone taking advantage of this fact to bore the general public and make moderators waste points. -N
It is likely to be an Apple thing for now. The catch about a digital display is that requires a video card that knows how to talk to the monitor and puts out a digital signal. Most video cards today all put out an analog signal. If the display catches on, someone, probably ATI, may put out a card for the IBM compatibles.
always thought movie format had an aspect ration
of something like 1.8:1, not the 1.56:1
1.8:1 is "anamorphic" widescreen. It's used by all of the newer, big budget movies (Titanic, Episode 1, etc.)
1.56:1 is "letterbox" widescreen. That is the aspect ratio that has been in use by hollywood since the mid 50's, when they needed some kind of "hook" to differentiate themselves from TV.
If you want it out of there, I have a growing room full of Apple stuff. Send me what your asking price is for some of it, and I'll let you know if I'll bite. :)
SlashSigTheorem: Humorous, Political, Critical, Constructive- If you have a
Take a look at the specs for the Sawtooth logic board in the two high-end models. 128 bit path to memory. This thing has a system bus nearly as fast as an SGI Octane! This is some serious shit. Apple also claims that it has PCI access twice as fast as the B&W G3. The B&W has 64 bit 33MHz slots.
This thing is more targeted at SGI's visual workstations than the typical PC. That's where the price comes from. Well, all except the "low-end" model. It uses the same logic board as the G3 did.
Only problem is, Apple is moving too fast. Good support for all the stuff in the G3 still isn't done, and the G4 is already here.
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SMP fun fact #2: MaxBus.
G4 processors in an SMP configuration can talk to each other on a separate (and of course much faster) bus than the system bus. Someone just needs to make a logic board that supports it now.
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This rumors has either proved incorrect or upgrade makers have found a way around it. The folks at Mac OS Rumors say they've seen a B&W boot and run with a G4 card in it.
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Why do I bet you wouldn't see this if this were from any other company?
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Hi,
You got me thinking...
With a diagonal of 22" and an aspect ratio 25:16, I figure the Apple Cinema Display is 18.53" x 11.86". That comes in at 219.77 Sq In, not 200 Sq In.
Thesis
One of the major costs for manufacturers in producing flat panel displays is in the 'yield': i.e. the number of produced units that you have to throw away because too many of the pixels are faulty. Most manufacturers will tolerate 2 or 3 faulty pixels on an LCD display. More than that, they're junked. This would indicate that fails would increase approximately in linear ratio with the number of pixels on screen, hence the cost of manufacture.
We'll leave out the factor of the display quality, though the reports I've read from people who've actually seen a Apple Cinema Display in the flesh is that it's very impressive. Let's also set aside other manufacturing difficulties and costs associated with producing a significantly larger flat panel display, such as physically moving it around the factory, etc.
Anyhow, we can then assume that the cost of any LCD display ought to be roughly proportional to the number of pixels it has.
Check my calcs, but.
Apple Cinema display: 1600 x 1024 = 1638400 pixels
It seems that for most large LCDs the resolution maxes out around 1280 x 1024 (Aspect ratio 5:4, not 4:3, you'd have to drop down to 1280 x 960 for that). At this resolution, you get 1310720 pixels on screen. Pixel ratio vs Cinema display = 1638400:1310720 = 1.25:1
On this basis, we'd expect the ACD to cost approx 25% more than a 5:4 aspect ratio LCD display with a max resolution of 1280 x 1024. The Cinema display is officially listed at $3999, so that makes us expect a 'standard' LCD to cost about $3200 at list price.
Data
Now, if I get some competing product pricing on a random selection of large LCD displays from C|Net (All these max out at 1280 * 1024).
Eizo FlexScan L66 (18.1")
Official retail: $3599
Cnet est. price: $3003
Price ratio vs ACD: 1.11:1 (ACD list:Eizo list)
Price ratio vs ACD: 1.33:1 (ACD list:Street price)
Compaq's TFT8000 (18.1")
Official retail: $3199
Est. price: $3245
Price ratio vs ACD: 1.25:1 (ACD list:Compaq list)
Price ratio vs ACD: 1.23:1 (ACD list:Street price)
IBM T85A (18.1")
Official retail: $3499.00
Cnet BM T85A: $3465
Price ratio vs ACD: 1.14:1 (ACD list:IBM list)
Price ratio vs ACD: 1.15:1 (ACD list:Street price)
NEC MultiSync LCD1810
Official retail: $3599
Est. price: $3336
Price ratio vs ACD: 1.11:1 (ACD list:NEC list)
Price ratio vs ACD: 1.20:1 (ACD list:Street price)
N.B. An 18.1 LCD display at 5:4 aspect ratio has an area of only 193.92 Sq In.
So, by my reckoning, using manufacturers' own retail pricing, with and Apple Cinema Display, you're getting 25% more monitor space for at worst a quarter more in price (exactly in line with my prediction) and, at best, only 11% more $$. Even when you're comparing Apple's official price with average street prices, only with the Eizo do you get more screen real estate for your money compared with the ACD, at 33% more in cost for a 25% increase in screen size.
If you stack the ACD up against the only 20.1" LCDs I could find, made by NEC, which still only max out at 1280 x 1024, it looks even better.
NEC MultiSync LCD2000 Special Edition (20.1")
Est. price: $4,734
Price ratio vs ACD: 0.84:1
NEC MultiSync LCD2010 (20.1")
Est. price $4649
Price ratio vs ACD: 0.86:1
N.B. these are 'street' prices, not list - I couldn't find the list cost of an NEC 20.1" panel display.
I calculate the screen area of a 20.1" LCD of 1280 x1024 proportion should be 197.35 Sq In (12.57" x 15.7"). Still smaller than the ACD.
Conclusion
The official list price of the ACD is actually 14% cheaper than street prices for the nearest LCD display in both resolution and screen acreage (remember, the ACD has a screen area of nearly 220 Sq In) while still providing 25% more pixels and 11% more screen area. To put it another way, if the Apple Display were in line with NEC street pricing, it would cost nearly $6000.
By my reckoning, it's actually remarkably cheap versus the competition and if you need that much information on screen at one time, there's nothing to touch it.
Cheerz,
Rob
And my 486es don't even have heat sinks on them. What's your point?
The G4 block was introduced little over a month ago in ROM version 1.6 after rumors of G4 upgrade cards surfaced. Apple just couldn't let G4 upgrade cards arrive at the market before the introduction of the Apple G4. Apple will release a new ROM for all B&W G3 with support for G4 upgrade cards after the wide availability of the G4 with the new Sawtooth mainbord. In the mean time, just use a 1.4 ROM.
I was more under the impression it was because of stagnating technology. For almost a decade, Apple was charging a huge premium for what were really just a series of incremental improvements on the Mac II. Resting on their laurels because "we're Apple, nobody can touch us" as they get steamrolled by the whole Wintel thing.
There's still a premium today...but it's more moderate, and not unreasonable in light of the fact that we're seeing more genuine innovation from Apple recently. If anybody else were producing this monitor, I really would expect only a moderate discount...and with poorer human factors engineering. It's exceedingly well-designed in all respects.
There's plenty of room for everyone to do their thing. I wish Apple well.
around 7K US. Sign me up for two!
oh, if I only had the money.
That looks quite impressive. I don't know who could buy one? Companies with a lot of money throw around maybe...something to look good in the lobby or corporate board room. Still, that would be nice
In Soviet Russia...michael would be rotting in Siberia!
I'll wait till Apple and the rest of the world decided to come down to earth and realize people won't buy LCD screens until they are as cheap or cheaper than todays monitors. (Have you ever seen anyone use an LCD outside of one being on display at a store? Non-Company bought? Didn't think so!)
So in other words, i'll wait till its around $1,000 before I buy one.
$3999 If you want to pick a nit.
I (obviously) support anonymous posting but this sort of abuse doesn't help anyone except those who would like to do away with it.
This sort of post even makes the normal flamage (BSD! GPL! Linux! BSD! My distro! Qsucks! No, R sucks! ) seem well reasoned.
"Anonymity" (or at least not having to log in every time) is nice. Now can we use it better than kiddies, please? Even a turnip posts better than that.
Well, in the tech specs it says it uses a DVI
:)) and yes, you will need a special video card (special ATI rage 128 I assume since thats what is in the G4 boxes) to use this monitor.
(Digital Visual Interface) 24 pin connector
with TMDS. (Transition Minimized Differential Signaling)
So no, you cant hook it up to your standard 15-pin D-SUB connector (or 3/5 BNC if yer real cool
This is pretty much the same as the SGI flat panel where you could only use the number 9 video card that came with the panel to drive it.
-N
The cinema display has a "Digital Visual Interface (DVI) 24-pin connector with Transition Minimized //read:digital// and USB. I'm sure Apple will make it only for Apple machines however if you can find a driver for the display, I'm sure it would work.
Differential Signaling (TMDS)" according to the specs on Apple's site. It also requires USB connection for onscreen controls. To connect it to a PC you would need a video card with this type of connector
-Derek
The Apple Cinema display is not available seperatelly for 3 reasons:
p lay_DS-a.pdf
1) It will only run from a 450Mghz and 500Mghz PowerMac G4 machines, for reasons listed bellow.
2) It's in *very* short supply for now, and since the 450 and 500 G4s dont ship right now, it gives Apple a chance to build-up supply.
3) It requires the AGP2X graphics connector only available on the 450 and 500 machines. See the data sheet (PDF) at
http://www.apple.com/displays/pdfs/AppleCinemaDis
Now, onto the Not-Supported-On-400 issue.
The *current* 400Mghz G4 machine has a Yosemite motherboard. That it, the same as the Blue and White G3. The processor is that of a G4, however. The 450 and 500 machines uses the Sawtooth motherboard. This is partly the same motherboard as the iBook (both motherboards derives from Apple's new Unified Motherboard architechture--a cost-cutting measure).
At some point, when Apple ships the last of the Yosemite motherboard, it will release a new 400Mghz G4, which will probably be refered to as "revision B", as they do for most machines (current iMac is rev D). Either that or, most likelly, they will speed bump the 3 offerings by 50Mghz. The line of G4s would then all be based on Sawthoot, and will range from 450 to 550Mghz. This is a common upgrade path at Apple (withness the iMac).
At that point, the low-end machine (either a 400 or 450) will have the AGP2x port and thus will be able to use the Apple Cinema Display.
Weither or not a controler for other machines will ever be made remains unclear. But I think I can answer this for myself: if your machine doesn't have AGP2X (or better), then you're out of luck
Bundling is not illegal. Wedging out a product by changing in the background published specs is. Requiring an oem to use your product under your operating system or nothing is coercion at best, extortion at worst.
Lowmag.net
At the Apple Store, it's $6500 as part of a bundle:
:-)
$6,498.00
450MHz G4
1MB L2
128MB SDRAM
20GB Ultra ATA
Zip drive
DVD-ROM/DVD Video
ATI RAGE 128 AGP
10/100BASE-T
56K internal modem
Apple Cinema Display
Accepting orders Oct 1
Is this sort of like "Buy this monitor and get a free G4?"
I'll take care of all your Macs, bud. And I won't even charge you! Ha ha.
Gosh!
This thing looks nifty.
It's not only biiig, it's also got a great
design. Now I just have to win in the lottery...
And my 486es don't even have heat sinks on them. What's your point?
Oh yeah, your 486 is really comparable to a modern processor like the G4, a P3 or a K7. Why didn't you just throw in an 8086 for good measure?
I think it runs around $5000
Yes, you're correct. Like SGI's flat panel display, the Apple display has a specialized digital output video card
Yeah - I saw this in the UK papers yesterday (which didn't publish specs tho'). They were quoting $4000 which seems fairly reasonable IMHO ($4000 ~= £2400 = 2.5 * Mitsubishi 2020u 22" CRTs) Presumably it'll be about £4000 in the UK, mind... Bugger.
--
Cheers
Jon
Cheers
Jon
Yeah, damn.. Get these monkeys hooked on free software & they start expecting free hardware, too.. Get a job l0s3rs. Thats why god made you a geek, so you could buy expensive toys. Now go to it.
For now, it looks like my current setup (2 screencards, 2 17-inch monitors) will give me _much_ more space for the money... (OK, OK, you don't get the full use of it, but at that price difference, I still think it's better for the `average' user...)
/* Steinar */
(This comment is of course GPLed.)
Well, if anyone were to read the specs, they would see that it's a matter of power. The new G4(not based on the G3, but the 604) requires a new power supply and so Apple decided to block upgrades instead of get themselves into possible legal trouble with a bunch of people calling them up and asking why their computers won't work anymore. Go read the specs about it before you spread ugly rumors.
I think his point is that if Intel keeps it up, you'll be able to have a dual function peecee, combination computer and barbeque. Its why Intel has a hard time making mobile PII's and PIII's, they run too damn hot! The chips keep getting physically bigger (thus, more expensive) and running warmer. Eventually, they're going to run into a wall. Meanwhile, the G4 is smaller and runs cooler than the G3. Which design do you think has more life left in it???
How about this for future LCD screens?
...and 266-ppi panels should be out by the end of the year.
--The more you know, the less you know.
Bundling is only illegal if you have a monopoly. Apple's 13 (or so) per cent marketshare doesn't quite qualify yet.
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
you know slashdot misplaced this, it was supposed to be 2 threads up(or maybe it was me). I'm pretty sure it was in the right place :)
All this code is getting to my head.
There are many of you who are trying to figure out a way to hook up one of these sexy babies to machines other than the G4. While I applaud your hacking sense, I have to say that this display is really only meant to be with a G3/G4, because the plastics match. I bet it would look really stupid with a beige rectangular box. That's why it makes sense for Apple to bundle it with their (really cool, even if you're jealous and won't admit it) G4.
a prophet on the burning shore
Did someone notice that Apple still remains the M$ little bro or everyone has missed it amidst all the hype:
1. The only system is for G4 MacOS (not even MacOS X).
2. You pay for MacOS even if you do not use it.
3. All offers are bundled in order achieve maximal "mortgage your home" factor.
Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
http://www.sigsegv.cx/
HDTV is 16:9 (1.78:1), and this flat panel
was clearly designed with HDTV in mind.
Movies originally were 4:3 (which is why TV
is 4:3). But there is no standard for movies.
Many low and mid priced movies are approx. 1.8:1
Many big budget films are done in 2:1 or 2.3:1
2:1 doesn't work well for TVs or computer monitors, the horizontal is too exaggerated vs vertical for a small screen. 16:9 was picked as a good compromise that minimizes the need for letterboxing of movies.
As to the 1.56:1 aspect ratio of this display, that is assuming square pixels... Are they?
Is it just me, or is the new server really slow?
Ugly, and like all Apple stuff, overprice, underperform.
Name another LCD available today with the same or better size, resolution, and price. Heck, with the exception of the widescreen Sony 24" monitor, I can't even name a CRT that beats it in all three categories. Plasmas are big, but low resolution and expensive, the big CRTs usually don't go that high-res and cost a bundle.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
1) The $6500 price includes the G4 computer. The 'stand alone' price is $3999. For now you have to buy it bundled.
2) Apple has no illusions that these are for the average consumer. That's why they were announced at Seybold. For graphic designers who have to stare at a screen all day, 22 inches of non-flicker is a Godsend, and they have both the inclination and money to pay.
3) Considering that a 24" CRT from Sun will cost you $2500, you'll have to wait quite awhile for a 22" flat panel (same viewable area) to go for less than a grand.
4) Why should flat panels have to be cheaper than a CRT to sell? People pay extra for miniaturization all the time.
And that's without antialiasing...
Maybe X isn't so obsolete after all ;-)
I also played with the G4 + Cinema hands on. Apple put something like 25 of them out for people to experience, but, like the frog in the headlights, I couldn't figure out what tests to run on it... I ran Adobe's InDesign (new product), which was screamingly fast. Interesting note: the letterbox format could be very cool for developing video, multimedia or web-based images. The extra space (out of the 3x4 rectangle) is the perfect place to stash your palettes.
Oh, off topic really, but they also had MacOS X Server running on a G4. They netbooted a dozen iMacs or so and showed the performance meter, which showed little effect. The OS felt fast even though the "great unwashed" were busy playing with all of the iMacs, as opposed to NT which feels sluggish when the print spooler is active... I told the Apple rep that I thought the idea of having the MacOS feel and a bash window was the sexiest part about the OS. He thought I was on crack...
---- Please be nice in case my Slashdot karma ~= my real life karma.
All of you people amaze me... "Wow if I only had the money..." blah blah blah blah... You all fail to realize the importance of this. This pushes the technology to new standards. OF course "someone else can make it, just give them a little while", That is hardly the point. By forcing new standards apple is leading the industry (X86 or not). and Of course you can't afford it, it isn't intended for you to afford. There is going to be such a limited quantity of these thing (at the beginning). What seems more likely? A: that apple will have 500 of these things and is planning on selling them to various poster children at slashdot.org or B: Apple will sell to the high-end (yes that is it's current intention) buyers in hopes to draw a lot of them back or at least retain them. You all fail to realize that apple is a for profit company...If they wanted to give their stuff away and sell the few they have to people who don't want to use their OS they would have joined the Salvation Army... that is all... take a step back for once...psychos
Weither or not a controler for other machines will ever be made remains unclear. But I think I can answer this for myself: if your machine doesn't have AGP2X (or better), then you're out of luck
Which, correct me if i'm wrong, pc's have had for a year or so. If this is the same interface as the SGI screen (I beleive SGI uses the dvi interface) then it will work without difficulty.
The agp 2x is no big deal on intel though.
Lowmag.net
More than code has gotten to your head if you actually believe that BS. Older beige G3's, and older powermacs do just fine with G4 upgrade cards. Some people will believe and repeat any dumbass rumor they hear --if it comes from Apple.
goto Subject;
Now, are you talking about the zif or a PCI upgrade in the older ones. I think PCI upgrade works, but the zif will not because of the power difference in the chips. Not sure about this, but that's what I was talking about. Just an independant theory actually, nothing from apple.
Oh well not worrying about it, I'm on an Ultra box, so it doesn't affect me...
So buy one of the upgrades that doesn't require an old ROM. They will be released, I believe XLR8 is demoing them now.
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
Amen! I bought some shares when it was at 17 =)
Not true, The G4 will use a new verison of the rage 128 with a digital output. So only the G4 450 and G4 500 (not the G4 400 or any G3) will work with the monitor. If/when ATI will release the board to the masses is yet to be known.
If what you're saying is true......I still don't care.
If what you say is true..... then I still don't care.
What do they do with the rejects, i wouldn't mind a bad pixels on a display THAT huge(I'm typing on a 14" CTX) --Celery464(innercircle13@yahoo.com)
I pull the Celery from the stalk, give it arms and legs, make it walk.
All - I know that there is a strong anti-MS (and sometimes anti-Apple) feeling on Slashdot, but do you really want the freedom to engage in peaceful commerce* to be subject to approval by higher-ups? Apple surely wants to maximize its profits, but it has no coercive power: it can only sell frickin' huge, frickin' expensive monitors to people who want them. If they think they can sell their production quickly enough to the very limited number of people who will be snapping up higher-end G4s, that's their right, eh? And if not, how far down exactly would you like the micromanagement to go? ("You can design Web pages as a freelance artist, but only if you are licensed by the state and if you don't do more than three pages for the same company each year. That's just to be fair.") Big companies start out as small companies (except in the case of some spinoffs which start big ... I'd have to say the difference then between the big company and the spinoff is basically semantic.) And if you work for a small company, how would you like the FTC and other agencies breathing litigious fire down your neck the way they do big ones? Should big companies be watched carefully? Yes -- but mostly for stupidity and stagnation. I seem to detect a lot of of envy / resentment in the kind of 'watching' / meddling advocated in these parts ... and among the CEOs of the other companies who are clamoring to break up MS. "Waah, daddy, his toy is better! Break his toy so mine is better!" or something like that ... just thoughts, timothy *(To be clear about my use of the term 'commerce,' in this case, we're not talking kiddie porn or heroin, so that particular extreme arguement I think would be out of place.)
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
How about: "If the mac is free, I'll take 200 copies." In the same vein as getting 'free' Windows from a computer manufacturer. Echew obfuscation
On the back of the monitor are two small ports, which look like USB. I can't confirm this, and I got lost in all of the other neat stuff there before asking someone. You might want to poke around the tech specs if this interests you.
---- Please be nice in case my Slashdot karma ~= my real life karma.
All of Apple's current displays, including their other flat panels, will work with a PC. The G4 video card is provided by ATI, I don't see why they would not produce a PC equivalent. Apple will likely support PC use of the monitor, since it does not really provide them with any competitive advantage and they would be turning down potential customers. Other than the MacOS, Apple is pretty good about sharing technology with the PC world.
The digital interface is a standard one I believe, SGI uses it for their 18" display, it requires a digital output from the graphics gard - currently #9 produce the SGI card. Digital (ok, I know all flat panels are digital internally :)flat panels are much crisper than other ones - I think all notebooks use digital video cards.
:)
I would assume that fairly soon most decent cards will have a digital output as well as analogue (I'm British) as TFT displays get more common. Shouldn't be too hard as al cards are digital until the final D-A converter. Which is why most PC flat displays are silly as they then have to A-D internally. Too much A-D-A'ing is bad for signal quality as all Hi-Fi buffs will tell you. Ok, they D-A-D. Shut up
John
Troc's dubious podcast and blog: http://www.trocnet.net
Top of the line Hitachi 21" does 2048x1500 for about $1500.
As others have said, that price includes a G4 machine as well. However, even if it didn't, I've worked at a company where it wasn't uncommon to see 3 17" flat panel displays per machine. Don't judge prices by what home users will be prepared to pay. Corporates will pay whatever it takes to get the display they want, particularly for something like this which is aimed squarely at the publishing/graphic arts market.
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
Yeah, right, when the display is 0.05 mm thick and it weighs 80g/m^2 and is foldable, I'll consider it displacing paper.
like it sez up there. if you check the apple site for the specs on this here thingie, you'll find that it's got 2 usb ports built right in. handy.
..if you are going to get rid of perfectly good G3s *and* the people who use them that's downright idiotic. There's no more delicate way to say it.
Have you put actual thought into what you just said? You don't like that the B&W G3's are *currently* not upgradeable, so you're going to dump them and go to NT and:
1) Get machines that are no faster than the G3. Why not spend the money for a new G4? Upgrade cards weren't going to be cheap for a long time anyway -- just move any peripherals from the B&Ws to a *much* better Sawtooth motherboard.
2) Incur the disruption, extra training and support costs of switching.
3) Buy all new software licenses.
4) Watch your IT department grow into it's own little empire.
5) Jump right into the teeth of the Y2K problem right before the rollover date. Good move.
Do you honestly believe you'll get better productivity? Have you read *any* TCO or ROI studies that support this? And you'll do it even if your people don't like it? Guess you don't give a rat's ass about "your" people, do you? I'm glad as hell I don't work for you.
coughSawtooth?cough :D Anyone know how this would compare with, say, the EV6 bus?
Uhmmmmmmmm calm down?
You know, those 6400/6500's aren't processor upgradable either...
Maybe it was a mistake? Maybe you're blaming Apple for the wrong thing? Maybe every single proc. card manufacturer has (and they have) figured out a way around the firmware block? Maybe you're making a fol of yourself?
"Anyhow, we can then assume that the cost of any LCD display ought to be roughly proportional to the number of pixels it has."
Sorry, there is no way you can assume that.
The economics of LCD panel manufacturing are in many ways similar to those of semiconductor manufacturing, because LCD panels are also made by treating a large panel of substrate (amorphous silicon aka glass for LCDs, pure crystalline silicon for semiconductors) with a series of masked chemical reactions and plating or coating operations.
Thus, the physical area is likely the biggest cost driver, because it affects how many panels can be cut from a single sheet of processed glass (it costs you the same amount of money to process a sheet or wafer regardless of how many displays or chips you get out of them). With LCD panels, there can be fairly huge step functions, because unlike ICs you have no chance of fitting hundreds of devices on a single sheet. For example, it might be possible to make only a single 22" panel from the same sheet that could be used to make two 18" panels.
Defect rates are important, but the pixel count doesn't affect defect rates directly. More important is the feature size of the circuitry being printed into the panel.
BTW, you may want to check your math -- by my calculations an 18" display with 5:4 aspect ratio is about 160 square inches, not 194. My figures agree with 219.77 square inches for the 22" Cinema Display, however.
If one were to shell out for the Apple monitor, it'd be a shame if it couldn't also be connected to, say, a Linux box.
Of course, what I really want, is a PixelVision SmartGlas LCD array made up of these 1600x1024 panels.
The command line is gonna look awesome on one of these! :)
Save the whales. Feed the hungry. Free the mallocs.
viewable area less than 21" and the refresh rate is not so good. plus it's heavy and takes up a lot of space. it's ugly also.
Acutally its the DPF connecter, and the Rage 128 and the #9 Revolution 4 has them.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Actually, I kind of like the looks of this new Apple display. If only it would do 1920x1200 like the Sony 24" tubes, and the price were *way* lower...
doesn't mean the logic of selling these babies is completely flawed.
There are markets where displays like this are a godsend (publishing, digital video, graphics, etc.), and to be sure, Apple is going to sell every single one of these things it can ship, and STILL not meet anywhere near all the demand. I'm sure the profits are there, too.
So even though you, or _I_ for that matter, can't afford one, Apple's hit the nail right on the head, again.
$3,499.00
500MHz G4
1MB L2
256MB SDRAM
27GB Ultra ATA
Zip drive
DVD-RAM/DVD Video
ATI RAGE 128 AGP
10/100BASE-T
No
I don't care what the benchmarks say, I could build a faster x86 system than this thing for $3500. This doesn't even have a monitor. Geeze... ridiculous
AGP2x has nothing directly to do with the display. Probably the only cards which work on Macintoshes and support the display interface used come in AGP2x-only (i.e. it's a somewhat high-end card all around).
> And unlike most other displays, it receives its > data digitally from the computer, preserving the > highest quality image. I'm reading this off a Compaq digital flat panel that cost me $800. Gimme a break, Apple. Next thing you know they'll be claiming that the iMac is faster than any PII in existence...oh, wait...
The G4 sawtooth machines can actually take 2GB of RAM, but the MacOS can only handle up to 1.5GB, so they list the max as 1.5gig. But if you put LinuxPPC on there, you could probably go to the full 2 gigs. Woohoo.
MacOS X better support more than 1.5GB, because soon everyone will need more to run Unreal 3 or whatever.
Just out of curiosity, is that what they call the difference between 35mm and 72mm?
Most movies are at LEAST 1.85:1, Titanic and Ep1 are 2.35:1. Anamorphic is a proccess of horizontally compressing the image on film and is independant of the display aspect ratio. 1.56:1 is "letterbox" widescreen. That is the aspect ratio that has been in use by hollywood since the mid 50's, when they needed some kind of "hook" to differentiate themselves from TV.
To repeat the Hollywood standard is 1.85:1. 1.78:1 (16:9) is the "widescreen" TV standard. 1.56:1 isn't a standard that I'm aware of...
"Grab them by the pussy" -- President of the United States of America
i could easily build a 4 proc. PIII for that money. *Even* if G4 is 2.7 times faster than a pentium, 4 550 MHz processor's are > 1 500 MHz processor. Hey, i'd love to have one of those things, but you ain't gettin what you pay for. Those are the facts
The reason imagesetters have to have such a high resolution to produce great looking output is that their "dots" can only be on or off and have to rely on some method of dithering to achieve levels of gray/colors. You don't really need 2540 dpi to produce smooth text but you do need it if you want to produce continuous tone images at a decent sharpness. With a display you can change the intensity of each pixel and achieve smooth transitions at a lower resolution. cheers, Matthew Reilly
MacOS X will have SMP support and the G4 is built to work with other processors in an SMP layout.
So, put your 4 PIII in a box...but will they beat a system with 4 G4's in it?
As for price...so what? Is that really hurting Apple? I don't think so.
But hey, to each his own.
--- "It's not enough that I succeed...everyone else must fail."
This monitor is seriously erotic.
It's not only larger than you think, it's larger than you can think. Ditto for brightness, contrast and viewing angle. Does very high-grade realtime interpolation for supporting multiple resolutions, as well. Your "underperform" rating is simply wrong.
The industrial design is phenomenal...perfect, I dare say. The SGI flat panel display looks clunky in comparison. The silver and unnaturally clear plastics are reminiscent of the front of a sports car or racing bike. Ingeniously simple but effective tilt mechanism. And the whole thing is tethered by a single cable combining power, USB and video signal (these split off "behind the desk").
Of course, words don't do it justice any better than the pictures...you've got to see the thing in person. And if you've got one shred of aesthetic taste and/or testosterone in your body, you'll understand what all the buzz is about.
Yes, it's expensive. But this isn't a monitor intended for grandma and her recipes or for pimply-faced script kiddies. It's perfectly suited to the Seybold crowd it was shown to...top-tier graphics professionals who are able and willing to pay for the absolute highest quality tools available. If it's too expensive, you could always go to one of the other manufacturers of 22-inch wide-screen ultra-high-clarity LCD screens...except that there are none. Nobody's pulled this off before.
You get what you pay for.
You are either a troll, or a total asshole and an incompentent manager to boot, or exxagerating for effect. No manager worth his salt would kick out good people just to change to NT. Aside from the human cost, economically that would be a terrible decision -- you'd be paying plenty of money to buy new NT boxes to replace your old hardware, but more importantly you'd take a huge hit from firing, rehiring, training, etc. Dumb. Dumb^2. Far better to take the small (see below) hit of buying Apple G4 machines. What's more, assuming you could upgrade the B&W G3, the ZIF upgrade cards cost $800-900 for a 400 MHz G4. The alternative is to pay $1600 for the baseline 400 MHz G4 machine from Apple (which is the the same thing you'd get by upgrading your old G3 machines). I don't know about you, but the upgrade cards don't look so attractive in that light. Finally, I think you are taking part in a massive wave of hysteria over this whole thing. Action is not justified until it becomes more clear exactly what Apple is doing. For example, in the past, various upgrade card companies sold G3 cards for Macs whose firmware was written before the G3 was even a project at Motorola/IBM, *without* providing any fixes for the inevitable bugs this caused. You think that just possibly Apple may have intended to avoid a repeat of that scenario by disabling the G4 in the G3 firmware until G4 firmware was ready? Wait a little while and see what happens... Apple's under enough heat about this that the issue should be clarified soon.
Besides which, the FTC isn't interested in anything so small volume as this. You can have a monopoly on Widget X; so long as the market is tiny they won't give a rat's ass. They have bigger fish to fry.
If somehow Apple is the sole source of 22" LCD displays 2 years down the road, and is selling hundreds of thousands of them, and still requires you to buy an Apple computer with the display, *then* the FTC might care.
Did anyone try to say this out loud?
Apple Cinema Display
Apple Cinema
apple cinnamon
Heh.... language is fun.....
The sooner you get the hell out of the Mac community, the better. Fool.
Yow! For that kind of scratch you can get yourself a full on HDTV that will accept Digital input from your computer, but will also accept analog from your DVD, VCR and satelite dish.
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
Fair enough about my assumptions on manufacturing costs. But I still stand by my point that the Cinema display isn't as overpriced as the original posting seemed to suggest. In fact, your information seems to indicate it's more competitively priced.
You're right about the area of an 18.1" - I copied the wrong figure from the sheet of paper where I was working the areas out of the various sizes of screen.
Cheerz,
Rob
And for added benefit, the Star Wars trailer is 2.2:1, but the important part of this "cinema" display is that it takes advantage of a feature on many DVDs that uses the maximum width even if the letterbox bars are cut off. Besides, this monitor can display a full 11x17 page which is just incredible for one of Apple's strongest legacy markets: newspapers and print media.
bugger.net | MunkAndPhyber.com
Desktop view.
This thing is absolutely phantastic.
Before everyone gets all excited, please remember that a 22 inch diagonal on a wide aspect ratio is a lot less screen space than a 22 inch standard aspect ratio. Think of it this way, My 21" monitor has a 4/3 ratio, giving me about 211 in^2 to work with. This thing has an aspect ratio of 1.5626/1, indicating about a 200 in^2 screen.... so why the hell is it so much more expensive than the 4/3 flatscreens?
The reason 150 dpi just doesn't cut it is that you're thinking in terms of printers - dithered or halftoned. Resolution and pixel depth are (to a point) interchangable. 300dpi continuous tone colour (such as dye-sub printers can deliver) is WAY better quality than offset printing delivers (magazines use an offset printing process.)
If you want to include tiny little details that you can see from 2" from the screen, yeah, 300dpi will make a difference.
Trees can't go dancing
So do them a big favor
Pretend dancing stinks!
Actually that is not quite true. Higher resolutions better define the edge qualities of plain old black and white type. In order to do justice to the serifs and thin acenders and descenders. If you want to see the difference an image setter makes, print samples of 6, 10, and 18 point garamond on a page in 150, 300, 600, and 1200 d.p.i the delicacy of line in the letterforms becomes more pronounced with each step. If you have ever tried to read a typeset page on a dye-sublimation printout, it is more difficult to read than a 600 dpi laser printer output.
I belive the Rage 128 already has the connector built in, so any Rage 128 card on the market should support the display. Which inclues PC Rage128s.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
He said name one that beats it in all 3 categories (size, resoution, and price), and nope, 21" is not greater than 22" (not to mention the fact that 21" CRT are freaking huge and heavy, not meant for those with limited desk space.)
I don't know about you, but I don't read all the /. articles. I didn't read the G4 one, because I'm not interested in Apple. I am interested in monitors however, so this headline caught my eye. If it weren't for this "repeat" article, I would never have known about this monitor.
--- Keep the choice with the user..
The G4 is a much much better chip than the PIII. I would *love* to have a G4 box running LinuxPPC. My only point was and still is that right now, i can get way more overall processor bandwidth for my money with an x86 box than with a G4 box. If there are 3rd party G4's available for a reasonable price when i buy my next computer, you better believe that's what I'll buy. But G4's aren't worth it right now.
I have a ViewSonic VPA150 and a VP150 in a dual head setup. I don't have the room for two 17" CRT's. Total price tag is $2100 - any self-respecting geek can afford that.
Slashdot must have recently become an annex to the Applestore --there hasn't been one mention here of Apple swindling G3 buyers with the promise of "the most expandable, most upgradeable Mac ever" and then turning around and inserting a block into the G3 firmware that prevents b&w G3's from taking a G4 processor. I'm disgusted with Apple and disappointed with slashdot. This is news, Rob. This is the face of proprietary tech --REPORT IT! --pissed off G3 owner
SGI flat display @ buy.com for $2334.95
Comment removed based on user account deletion
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It's called high definition TV, the main purpose being higher resolution.
Even the El' Cheapo Comcrap (read Compaq) Presarios are shipping with DVI connections on the back of them. Almost all of the TNT2 cards are shipping with DVI connectors, it will require some hacking to get the thing to work, with the USB interface side of things, but it should be no problem to get one of these working on another OS, if you can get one of these things in the first place. -my 2cents worth.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
>...and 266-ppi panels should be out by the end of the year.
I believe 300dpi will be the magic number, as it was for the laser printer displacing daisywheel printers. 150 just doesn't cut it as easy enough on the eyes. At 300, electronic books, newspapers, etc. become as easy to read as the real thing.
Wasn't this mentioned about a zillion times in the post a couple of days ago about the G4?
I've read that in a few monthes, once there is a larger supply you will be able to buy this in shops other than the on-line store.apple.com
Gates and Jobs are the same evil!
As far as I can see it only has two problems: Apple's pig-ugly translucent styling, and the likely price by the time it reaches the UK...
"The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." -- Delos B. McKown
That's exactly it. The reject rate on large LCD screens in amazingly high. Every person in the graphics industry I know wants one of these. There is no way they're going to be able to make enough, even only selling it with the G4 and only from the Apple store. The only thing that bugs me about it is it means I can't go down to the local Mac place and drool over one.
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I've only got a few shares of Apple, but its almost to where I could buy one of these beasts on their tab. Thanks wallstreet :)
The Cinema display can be driven by a ATI Rage 128 Pro video card which has the necessary digital connection. The card is available for x86 systems, but supply of the monitor will be constrained for some time. Notice how regular sized flat pane displays (i.e. 14-15 inch) have been going up in price, partly because of demand, partly because of manufacturability. That large of an area is nearly impossible to get uniform deposition/chemical/mechanical actions on during manufacturing. -Kirk Rogers, Ph.D
The G4 and the Cinema display aren't translucent anymore. They just have a couple of clear parts. MacDesktops has some nice high-rez pictures from different angles.
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PowerLogix, XLR8, Sonnet, etc. are all working on circumventing the firmware. Ever since the 'PowerPC Upgradeable' fiasco with the Quadras, Apple has gone to great lengths to *not* promise that any machine is processor upgradeable, and yet the Mac upgrade market continues to thrive.
Never underestimate the ingenuity of third party vendors: G3 cards in the L2 cache slot, G3 PDS upgrades for 5-yr old PM 6100s, 'mezzanine' slot cards. Odds are you'll be able to upgrade to a G4 before the Sawtooth machines even ship.
Image Setters that output the film that eventually gets turned into a plate for offset printing START at about 2000 dpi, and I have had experience with ones in excess of 3800. You simply cannot render truely excellent artwork (type, image, whatever) on a screen until things get bumped waaay up.
Not to dis this innovation though: I am very excited that these high-density panels are coming together. That will hopefully allow developers to design GUIs that have a higher pixel-per-inch orientation. Most GUIs are designed to cram the maximum working area into a relatively low-res display, keeping the GUI interface elements at an absolute minimum pixel count...
When displays of this density become a working standard for computing, it will force developers to reevaluate uses of screen real-estate, simply for the purposes of ledgibility. Pretty cool.
Wait... if this thing is 22" diagonal, then at 1600x1024 it's significantly less than the standard 100dpi. Around 85 dpi, and it's still that expensive? What a piece of crap. I'll save my pennies for the SGI monitor, or wait for the 200+ dpi units to come out.
Just because it works, doesn't mean it isn't broken.
Sun has a very nice 24" wide-screen monitor. (A previous slashdotter made a comment about it making my "eyes bleed".) Heh. It is CRT technology though. But I've got 1920x1200 pixels to work with on my desktop (although 1600x1000x76 is a supported mode). It is cheaper than the Apple monitor (full list price is $2500) and has dual-inputs. The first input is the funny Sun connector. The second input is a standard VGA connector. I hook my PC and my Sun up to the monitor and switch between the two. I must say, it attracts a LOT of attention. And I don't have to switch between virtual windows all the time anymore. Mmmm...
The point is, for $3500 bucks, he can get a much faster machine, even if the G4 were the fastest chip on the market (which I doubt)
Spouting back that the G4 can to SMP doesn't prove a damned thing, except that you'll know how to bend over really far when the bill comes.
Just because it works, doesn't mean it isn't broken.
Did they say "all"? No. "Most" flat panels still use analog inputs. As for price, it's mostly due to the size of the display. Another poster pointed out that the SGI is only $2300, but at 17" it's still a full 5 inches smaller. Try a little perspective next time.
The new Slashdot server is sloooooow! I am up here in Canada and the old server felt faster.
it seemed slow to me, then again, that was probably because it was being /.-ed itself, from people on the old server load testing the new one. but it's nice, spiffy, and fast now.. if only that darned DNS would update; i keep having to manually type the IP addy in when I want to log in. oh well... at least we _have_ the new server (yay!)
Insert mind here.
OK, so I don't know anything about driving a display unit other than by using analogue 15-pin SVGA ports.
Could this display be driven by a PC? If so, what sort of video card would you require? Is it likely to be completely proprietory (sp?) to Apple, or could one manage to get it running on a PC somehow?
Would anybody who knows more than me (i.e. more than nothing) care to explain it?
Thanks.
Nick.
I use to like Slashdot, but now it's just plain boring. Same old crap all the time. Where can I find another forum?
then they decided to post something stupid as an AC, and mod themselves up. Is this what we get to look forward to now?
So by late next year, maybe the following year, e-books will indeed be on the horizon. :-)
--The more you know, the less you know.
For those of us who would also want to be able to use such a beast on an x86 machine, it would seem that you cannot get a video card to support the display's DVI interface. SGI isn't much better, with a single card vendor support their digital interface.
It is ok to bundle 2 products together. It is only a problem when you bundle product 2 with product 1 because you have a monopoly on product 1.
And you can buy a G4 without the monitor. I think
Apple is doing this to keep demand down untill they can make enough to sell them seperatly. They may be having problems ramping up the factory.
Erlang Developer and podcaster
A little history: Apple put $100M into Samsung a few months ago to build their flat-panel assembly lines, and I seem to recall seeing something about a 22" flat panel from them a week or so ago. Apple's gambit is apparently to monopolize the supply of these things, since most of Northeast Asia is scrambling to build factories to produce them.
---- "If we have to go on with these damned quantum jumps, then I'm sorry that I ever got involved" - Erwin Schrodinger
Pardon me, So, not available in shops, and not available unless you buy a POS G4. I just have a hard time with someone referring to a G4 as a Piece Of Sh!t. These machines have been demod and hyped for less than 48 hours, and you're already convinced that their pieces of sh!t? What a limited mind you must have. Whether you like Apple or not, I think they have at least earned open-mindedness. I don't think anyone should refer to any product as a piece of sh!t until they've used it themselves. If a G4 doesn't meet your needs, fine. But please don't make uninformed judgements based on personal whims.
SlashSigTheorem: Humorous, Political, Critical, Constructive- If you have a
Of course you PC weenies can build a dual x86 system for less money than a new Powermac, because Apple is an OEM. You would pay similar prices for a proffesional system from Dell or Compaq, but I don't see you bitching at them.
Do you think I could get the suits/bean counters to spring for a $4ooo monitor?.....I wonder?
...but given the nature of the AM-LCD developement, 400-ppi should be within reach.
--The more you know, the less you know.
I think some people are misunderstanding the bundled w/G4 thing. It seems that this is the case because they expect limited supplies for the first few months. Eventually the monitor WILL be sold separately.
-Rafi
-Rafi Remove the Spanish to email me.
You have to wait, apple does this with the new, new stuff.. can only get it bundled but you wait 5 months or so and you can get it seperate.
Right now, it is cheaper to get it bundled than seperate.
Will still have to refinance your house, but at least your not selling your soul like with some other companies.
So you're seeing colors, hu? That's amazing, cause it's in standard computer gray. What's the stuff called you're on? Can I have some too? :-)
create one
make it popular
sell it
watch it get boring