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Microsoft Game Console
Nukelear writes "MS will be releasing a gaming console in Fall of 2000. The box will be running Intel OR AMD chips (not yet decided) and NV10 graphics. The full story is here." Note that it hasn't been confirmed yet, however. Assuming it's true, it means MS is going up against (primarily) three companies with well established brands - Nintendo, Sega, and Sony. Even if MS is MS, it still sounds like they would be up for some stiff competition...
Hrm, I don't know about this from what it sounds like there just making a striped down PC optimized for games. I doubt it will be very compelling on a technical side. The GeForce kicks ass, but so do the custom chips in the DreamCast and the PSX2.
:) I just don't see this succeeding.
Also, Micro$~1 will not be building these boxes themselves. The reason game boxes are so cheap is because hardware makes eat the cost. Sony lost almost $100 on each playstation it sold at launch. This is the problem that 3do had. There boxes were made by third party's, instead of 3do itself. they cost far to much, so the market was very limited.
This Microsoft box is going to be going for at least $100 more then the Sega, and at the same price point as the Sony (although I don't know much about Sony's release date the price will be $300 at launch). I'm pretty sure that the PSX2 will have much more CPU power though.
So basically what Microsoft is promoting will be underpowerd (even less then current top of the line PCs, by a little bit. A new console should be at least 1 year ahead of PCs), and probably undersupported. Microsoft does a lot of things, and doesn't really follow through on all of them
Gamers aren't stupid, Microsoft isn't a 'sexy' company like Sony or Nintendo (or even Sega, rrr, I was a Super Nintendo zealot
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Historically, MicroSqiush has made some very fine hardware (starting with the Z80 softcard, which let you run CP/M on your Apple II.)
Now, if their foray into gaming console means that they're going to leave their crap software business, then I say more power to 'em!
Of course, if they just want to re-do wince for gamin consoles, Sony and Nintendo are going to mop up the floor with them.
Game consoles don't suck, so I don't expect any tolerance in that market for a new player who doesn't care about quality.
-jcr
and you have your history wrong. the Genesis kicked the SNES's ass for a long time, and Sony owns most of the market right now (esp in japan)
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Have I offended your poor little AC's ears? Anonymous Coward is certanly one of the most annoying posters, as far as I know
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Actually, I don't think Microsoft will have much of an impact in the game market, where there already strong competitors who aren't going to just roll over and die.
The only markets that Microsoft has done well in is the OS and Office app markets. Sure, Microsoft has some presence in other places, but they certainly don't 'dominate'. A lot of Microsoft initiatives die, remember how ActiveX was going to take over the web? Direct3d? Chrome? The only time that Microsoft can succeed is when there competition rolls over and dies, or just gets bought up. And I don't think MS will really try very hard on this one.
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Console gaming is also more or less a Japanese-based industry. In the situation that Microsoft can turn out a powerful console and a strong first-party line-up (Which I doubt, but that could just be Linux snobbery kicking in) they still have the problem that Japanese companies make games for Japanese gamers -- Microsoft is not as big a name in the East, if I recall. There just might not be enough American/Canadian developers for Microsoft to lean on for third-party support.
There are also some technical issues. I mean, an Intel chip? I'm going to guess it'll be a P2/P3 type architecture -- which is barely (If at all) different from the x86 architecture (I think there are small differences, but I could be wrong). I suppose including nVidia's GeForce will balance this out, but it could also significantly raise the price point (Remember what price did to the NeoGeo and Saturn?).
And one last thing -- Microsoft partnered with Sega for the Dreamcast, as I'm sure you know. Now, the Dreamcast looks to be a huge success -- and after playing Power Stone, I really regret not having one on preorder -- but Sega has a nice track record of failures like the Sega-CD, 32X, and Saturn. Like I said, the Dreamcast looks like a success -- but mostly because of its marketing, price point, and lack of "next generation" competition within the next year. I really doubt Microsoft learned much of anything from this partnership, except under which conditions to release a console.
All of you fellow console gamers out there who are declaring the death of video games as we know them: I wouldn't worry about it. Microsoft may have managed to dominate in a market with which they're fairly familiar, but that doesn't mean they can just charge into such a fiercely competitive and fundamentally different one and expect everyone to bow and scrape.
--SA
Mmmmh one thing is sure, should anything like that come out, backward compatibility is all but guaranteed.
I've never tried running, say, Baldur's Gate without a HD to store the 600+ MB cache, but I don't really think it'd be as enjoyable...
marco baciarello
Over the years that gameing systems have been made popular there have come and gone many systems. Very few have the staying power. Ex. Nintindo, Sony, and Saga. But there have been many other good systems. 3DO and the Jaguar are examples. Both where in terms of hardware way above the rest at the time. But both systems failed. Becouse hardware isn't the reason they failed we must look to something else. I belive two reason these systems failed and why any Microsoft system would two. Number one, hype. No one can deny that good hype can help see a system. Sony, and Nintindo have this down pat. I don't belive that Microsoft could match this. Second the software the games. Well I don't know about you but I know that I sure don't want any Blue screen of death in my video games. Pluse just how many really good games have ever come out of Mircosoft. For these two reasons I belive any system made by Mircosoft will fail.
although I'm sure microsoft would tell you diffrently...
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
The last thing I would want on a console is an MS OS. I don't want to have games crashing every fifteen minutes. "A fatal exception error has occured. Blitz2001.exe will be forced to shut down."
Trouble is though - the facts seriously show the Dreamcast specs to be very seriously outshone by the PSX2 ones - I can't comment on Nintendos new machine since I haven't seen anything much on it - suffice to say that they've got their work cut out to reclaim older gamers. First thing I saw on the Dreamcast? Sonic - not bad, didn't amaze me. Latest thing I saw on it - a title screen for a (not bad looking) boxing game, with jerky logo scrolling.. I've a decent track record in terms of predicting who wins in this area - my money personally will be on Sony taking the Euro games market at the very least by storm.
A P3 or K7 isn't exactly cheap, how does MS plan on cutting down on the cost of the processors? Also AMD doesn't have enough factories that can mass produce their K7's.
CPU cost:
K7 600mhz - $650
K7 650mhz - $920-980
P3 600mhz - $630
Motherboard cost:
Intel - $100
AMD - $200+
RAM cost:
64MB Sdram - $70
Graphic card:
GeForce 256 - $300+
Unless Microsoft figures out how to make this console aka computer with a PoS OS cheap it will never happen. I can see what MS plan is, port over existing computer titles with minor adjustments, but who wants to play computer games on a console when you can play *fun* psx2 or dreamcast titles.
And you have seen so much of Sony's console? You don't know what games will be on it. We don't know if it will really play DVD movies or just DVD roms. How hard will it be to program? We don't even know how much it will cost. Will the extra power of the psx2 pan out to better games? Remember the saturn had almost twice the raw cpu power as the psx1. It shows when you play 2d games, but not 3d games. No one knows what will happen in the next few years. But if you think Sega is just going to die, you need to take a second look IMO.
I can't see this as being anything but vaporware. From the other sites I've been reading on this, it's sounds as if X-Box (the system we're all talking about here) is just one of many console ideas Microsoft has come up with for possible introduction into the home. I doubt they could release something that directly competes with Dreamcast when they are partnering with Sega. Thus, it seems this is one of those set top, do everything, boxes that will never see the light of day. Anyone recall that Pippin box that Apple and Bandai were going to bring out a year or two ago? I'll bet $50 that X-Box turns out to be a similar product, that will unfortunatly have a similar demise.
;)
With that said, let's look at the flip side of this...if this thing does come out, do you think Microsoft is actually gonna be able to compete with Sega, Sony and Nintendo? I doubut it. First of all, where are the games? What 3rd party developers are going to write for the system? I don't care how much money MS has, they aren't gonna take away Square from Sony, or Mario from Nintendo, or all those arcade games away from Sega. But hey, I guess it's not that bad, at least there will be a really good console version of Age of Empires!
Yeah, on "The Register" they compare this MS attept to MSX ... I know MSX failed ( I used to own one - philips )but it was definately better than ZX Spectrum or even C-64. It was actually on of the better ideas that ever came out of MS ...
Philips has tried their hand in the game console market before with the CD-I. It was pretty much a failure. But hey, I still love my Philips CD-R. :)
...
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Well for you it doesnt ... but, hehe, tell me my friend - who is richer ( which is ultimate goal of any business) you or Microsoft ? If they managed to dominate computer business there must be something they are doing right.. Let them try, why not - it is free country after all.
Now I know you don't steal EVERYTHING you use. If you've ever bought anything, it may have been because of marketing. You see businesses sell things to make money...
No, its not. Its like the car wrapping itself around every lampost in sight. I paid good maney for 2 MS operating systems, neither of which work as advertised. Somehow, thats my fault. Sure pal. (NOT the original poster)
I'd sure as Hell buy one! I only have one box now and it's an NT box that I do work on. I would never run Winddows 9x, so I'd love to have a good game console that can run all of my old PC games. Awesome.
Microsoft has been saying for some years that it intends to move everyone to Windows NT eventually, phasing out the Win 9x series. But NT isn't a good gaming platform (still on DirectX 2.0, aren't they?)
I have to wonder if this is part of a move to make NT more of a pure business system (PHBs *like* it when a system won't play games.) Maybe not, but I don't doubt supporting legacy games is one of the more difficult aspects of combining '9x and NT, given the horrible tricks games are inclined to use for speed.
Gee, what an interesting time for MS to be entering the console market. I guess it will just be a coincidence that they're system will start to bridge the gap between PCs and Consoles. I bet I can name the company they will choose as they're prefered isp. Whose got 5$ to bet? So now the company makes The OS, forces you to use they're browser, and will now slowly migrate towrd making the entire computer for you. It surprises me that IE5.0 doesn't work for MSN only. What is wrong with the DoJ? Microsoft has become the very definition of a monopoly. All that they have to do next is buy out the telecom/cable companies, perform a hostile take over of AOL, form a militia, and forcefully take over America's beer breweries. They could rule the country in a day :). Well, maby longer, I'm sure we'd fight them over the beer thing.
-X
SPAM openly welcomed. I do charge a 500$ proof-reading fee though. Any complaints may be directed to the brick wall to y
Its gona be fast enough to emulate a PSX1 100%
:)
whoppie
man you lead a sheltered life.
if microsoft was selling it with win9x, but there not, there using Windows CE (wince). Witch is an entirely diffrent OS, and I've heard porting is not really that easy ether...
:)
Man, microsoft should really have there API's writen by a diffrent department, and the implementations done by the OS departments (9x, NT, CE) so they all work correctly. (like UNIX
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
If they incorporate this with webTV.. this could be awesome...sad but awesome
I did notice that they weren't actually making (designing and manufacturing) the hardware, but they are attaching their name to a hardware product. To business-types (or half-breeds like me) that is "entering the hardware field". Especially if they will market it in connection to their established brands.
--Flam
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers - Pablo Picasso
sorry to reply to you twice, but
I'd rather install a game on the hard drive then dig up a CD, and considering that a CD is going to be much slower then the hard drive, it makes it faster to (much faster).
man there are lots of loosers in the gaming world
I think your one of them... show me a game you've writen...
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
woops, I ment to say dreamcast, the saturn uses two SH2's I think (or maybe sh3s)
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
The Dreamcast doesn't really run CE. It's just an option for some games. Windows CE is in no way installed on the Dreamcast. Most games use Sega's custom OS. Perhaps you knew that already -- if I jumped to conclusions, I apologize.
Tell me , who is famous for producing stable software ? Do you know any company ? Microsoft is not better nor worse then anybody else. They are however, very huge player and therefore are much more visible ( which also includes some very high profile bugs )
Before or after you come back from daycare ?
NINTENDO ? you mean that thing that 7 years old like to use ?
If Microsoft is gonna run CE on this box, the performance of the games will take a hit. Plus will its geForce drivers take full advantage of the card.
-------------------------------------------------
I agree. I'm glad to see Microsoft concentrating on its strngths (writing games).
JET Program: see Japan, meet intere
You may be amused to find out the makers of Microsoft Bob moved on to make Half-Life...
:)
I got into a flamewar with some of them regarding their dropping of the console from the main interface. They made it a command line option, but at least, they didn't penalize players who wanted a console (as was the initial plan). Not that I'm claiming credit for their change of heart...
"Be nice, veer left, and never stop thinking" Iain Banks - Walking On Glass
I say, fud them, If the game makers won't code on linux, i ain't gonna buy there game. Oh wait, i don't oh yeah.. :) But if they did i would buy them... neato games, But i gotz work to do... Like Kid-Rock would say it: " LIVE TO CODE!!!!! " Oh yeah/.
Personally, I'd just rather own a computer...
The sega dreamcast (which has been out in Japan since spring) is being released in 3 days. It costs $200, has a modified cd-rom drive which holds more data, and it will have an optional 56k modem.
And BSD has already been ported to the dreamcast
...
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With Microsoft's track record for stealing ideas and killing competitors, why would you write games for their system?
MS makes (most) of their money on software. Why should they care if their software runs on this vs. a Dell box?
I've seen the controllers, they replaced A, B and C buttons with CTRL, ALT and DELETE.
Just because your voice reaches halfway around the world doesn't mean you are wiser than when it reached only to the end
seems to me another futile attempt
The only thing futile is resistance. See the picture of BillG in the upper right corner of this web page? Resistance is futile. All markets will be assimilated.
Dear god, this thing better not run any win* software
Sega Dreamcast already runs Windows CE, why would MS bother releasing their own. They've spent a great deal of time and money on Dreamcast.
You have to remember that poly numbers don't really mean that much...the polys they are talking about are probably microscopic with no textures etc etc, and nobody is going to make a game using only polys like that.
Talk about using your friends as stepping stools... development on this must've began while they were working on Dreamcast with Sega!
Seeing as how the Sega Dreamcast runs on top of Windows CE, wouldn't this be Microsoft second console so to speak? According to Sega, they chose Windows CE becuase it was easy to program for and port PC games to....that may answer the question "Will anyone write for it?"
ÕÕ
While Microsoft may not be able to innovate in the console market, for most people, the bottom line is what games does it have. I would bet that if you ask your average game player why they have either N64 of PlayStation exclusively, they're going to say "because it has X game and the other one doesn't".
Pressuming all of the technology is basically similar (not like NES 8-bit vs. Playstation), I think people will just go where the games are. There are several things Microsoft could do with its huge amount of money to lure developers (such as was suggested earlier, not taking royalties on games (at least not _yet_)).
As for Sega, I think this is simply going to be their third failure in a row (the first two being SegaCD and Saturn (and wasn't there some kind of extension to the Genesis that was just abandoned after a couple of months when the Saturn came out?)). They seem to jump into the market a year earlier than the other guys with a new product and before Sega can get enough games to take over the older generation, a new, better system is released. Dreamcast games look better than N64 and Playstation, but they don't look so good that I absolutely have to buy one. I suspect in another year, something will be released that I feel I absolutely have to buy. This very well could be the MS system. The console system is completely proprietory, anyway, so why not go with MS. When I want to play a game, I just want it to work. I don't want to figure out all of the new damned hardware I have to buy everytime I want to play a game. Having a closed console unit makes this very simple. But my computer can still run Linux.
As much as I do not care for the OS' from MS...I would love to see what kind of console they would make.
Microsoft's entry into the console market is about more than a PC company entering the console market. This is the first signs of a fundamental change in the way people will compute and who will get to deliver the machines consumers will use to compute with. What we're seeing is the beginning of the final separation between consumer level computers and workstation level computers. Why is this happening? Because of the increases in capabilities at the lower end of the market, aka consumer level, Microsoft, if not the entire U.S. PC industry, can no longer ignore the console market because if they do now they will give away control of the consumer level computer market to companies like Sony and Nintendo. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but in the near future. So what is really going in isn't so much about a company entering a new market but a company having to create a presence to ensure future market share. Basically what you're seeing is the "VCR"ization of the consumer level computer. (I'm not using "PC" because that has too many preconceived notions attached to it) People talk like Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sony are putting out machines but the reality of the situation is that they are simply backers of different platforms. Yes, Nintendo too. The "Dolphin" is not a single machine but a development platform that is upgradable like a PC. As a matter of fact, Nintendo's "Dolphin" isn't even supposed to have a DVD drive, Panasonic's is. What this means is that the next round of battles should be looked at in the context of situations like Beta Vs. VHS, not Sony Vs. Microsoft Vs. Nintendo. And it is precisely because of this reason that all you guys out there who thinks Sony will be king of the hill in the next round should think twice. Sony has always chosen to go with their own proprietary platforms and have paid dearly for it. It's already common knowledge that thanks to internal squabbling Sony has already decided to kill the PSX2's ability to play back DVD movies, the very feature which would have pretty much sealed the PSX2's acceptance as the next VCR. Thnaks to this rather unsound business decision, there is a clear possibility that PSX2 may become Sony's next Beta and this time it's going to cost Sony a lot more than anything that Beta did. Especially with so much of Sony's operating profits tied to the PSX product line, a less than spectacular performance out of PSX2 may prove fatal to the corporation as a whole. Already the industry insider buzz is that Nintendo is the one to watch for the next round. And now with Microsoft possibly in the races, the next round may prove to be a close battle between Nintendo and Microsoft. Where is Sega in all this? Please. Sega who? They may not even be in the console business two years from now. (Their arcade devision I'm sure will continue to do well) All in all, I'm sure it will be a very interesting next few years in deed. pita pita pumpkin eata.
never again. never again. no, no, no. The very concept of one of these devices making it into my home disgusts me. Nope, not going to happen.
Ex Libris Veritas
I would have thought microsoft would have figured out they can't do well in this arena. They are using overly expensive hardware with far too much heat for a game console, and if microsoft writes the games for it initially, everyone knows microsoft can't do games. They can do an Office Suite, and they can do a '(crappy) OS, but aside from Flight Simulator, most Microsoft Games flop (Fury comes to mind, a cheap terminal Velocity rip-off)
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Is it just me, or does this smack of everything MS has tried to do, promote a shoddy imitation of a quality product in hopes people will buy it based on the MS name. While a 500Mhz K7 with a GeForce256 chipset would fly, it just seems to me another futile attempt to make a quick buck. *sigh*
cheese logs keep my wang warm at night.
Emulating this thing will be real easy. It is a PC. I see no reason for many people that own computers to buy the console. There will be emulators all over the place and fast. And PS2 has better specs anyways.
If you read the article, you'd know that this console _will_ be running a Microsoft OS. A modified version of Windows CE.
Apple makes a combination HDTV/VCR/game console/internet access
device/satellite receiver/etc. that you only have to connect three cables to at
an affordable price, and it comes it various colors to match your interior
decor. It sells well in educational, computer novice, and Sega-fan markets,
but everyone else blows it off as not being a serious computer.
And people bitch that the combo doesn't have a flappy drive, "Only apple will make a one-button remote control!"
CY
I am sorry but this makes me really mad. I mean why the hell don't they concentrate on getting the standard of their operating system and programs up to scratch then maybe try a gaming console.
However if that was the case they would never get the chance to make a console.
I think that would be a good thing and that they should leave it up to the masters....NINTENDO!
Well, this box may not even have a hard drive, and since Microsoft is designing it, they may make it difficult to replace the OS.
:)
But if you just want it for a gaming machine, why even bother to install linux? if you dislike microsoft, why not just get an n64? or one of those new fangled psx2's (acutaly the development platform runs linux, so there may be some bits of linux underlying the games
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I really want Microsoft to start producing these things. Regardless if they contain Intel or AMD processors. I want them to compete with Sun about Java. I want them to pick up the bat and try to swing at Unix vendors. You people must think I am insane for saying this. And here is yet another oxymoron, I want them to do all this because I detest the bare thought of Microsoft. Think about it. What does Microsoft produce? Citedly robust and cheap and featuristic server operating systems, ALONGSIDE with force feedback joysticks and Interactive Barney(TM). This for sure makes it sound like they are the ACME of computing, since they do manufacture items used specifically for leisure and not for system dependent datastructures. I would love to see yet another worthless product in their arsenal, because soon people would realise that they are in fact manufacturing nothing but useless products. And there is another aspect. I want them to step on as many toes as they can, and preferably with large companies, because this will eventually bring them to consolidate against Microsoft and finish them off once and for all. This will of course take time, but I know it can be done. I know it will BE done. And therefor I pleed all with all the joy in my heart to Microsoft that they succeed with launching this zoo product into the market. Sincerely, Alex
Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think. -Ayn Rand
The issue comes down to who gets to control the standards for interfacing to your future digital TV (I beleive analog transmission is due to be phased out by 2004?) and thus eye-ball time (if stories of teenage 40 hour/week watching TV is true). By aggressively pushing the brand awareness, alternative choices don't even get a look-in, especially if you can default to your content site. Selling hardware is not profitable, but claiming a slice of the on-going revenue stream for services is. By defining and thus controling the OS standards, they can get advanced notice of future applications and thus breathing space to put a foot into high growth areas before others catch on. Time to market is a killer advantage which is worth a fortune if you can establish leadership in a game category (witness Quake, C&C, etc).
Now the technical question (considering this is SlashDot) is should the x86 family really suitable as a media processor compared with alternatives such as Sony Emotion Engine or SH4? Would the component count be low and cheap enough to support broadband, ASDL or even wireless? And would the Japanese consumer electronics manufacturers be taking this lying down?
LL
I can have my Microsoft Windows, my Microsoft Phone, Microsoft Barney, my Web TV, my MSNBC, my Microsoft Joystick, my Microsoft Mouse, my Microsoft Keyboard, playing Microsoft Games, integrated together with embedded NT, WinCE, and ActiveX!!!! Will this work with my MS Hotmail and MS Passport and MS Carpoint and MS Sidewalk?! I LOVE YOU BILL! I even spell check this with my new hard cover Microsoft Dictionary!!!
</SARCASM>
A little bit too much integration for my personal tastes. Microsoft knows damn well that they aren't going to be making the same kind of money off their old cash cows. Ironically the strategy that they killed Netscape with (giving away a competing product for free) is now being used to kill their OS and their Office Suite. How delicious is that?
I guess they have to sell something to satisfy their stock holders.
The more you know, the less you understand.
feel free to moderate this down.
:)
I had posted this story on saturday afternoon... and now it's just becoming a story. Either no one saw my submission of the same story, rejected it for this one, this one was posted first and they're backlogged on stories, or just thought that I smelled like rhubarb pie.
I'm just mad because I wanted to see myself on slashdot... yes, I have that little of a life.
And your wrong. The game market can only support about two systems. every 'generational' leap has produced two running systems, (except when the NES was the only game in town).
There were plenty of boxes at the beginning of the 16-bit era, and several at the start of the 'Next-generation' era (I don't want to say 32-bit because the N64 is, well 64 bit)
First the SNES and sega's genesis, the turbo-grafix16 didn't get anywhere. Recently there have really only been the N64 and the PSX. The Sega Saturn, the 3do, Atari Jaguar and whatever else, just died in the water.
I really don't think this box from Microsoft will make much of an impact, despite there success as an OS vendor, they are actually a pretty inept company.
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Much more stable. much prettyer to :)
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I guess you're saying I don't know all the facts, then. The Dreamcast is going to do extremely well...among those who either spend frivlously or don't really know the video game market. Sega has just had too many mistakes in the past, and it's going to be a while before they can win back the real gamers. Casual and first-time gamers will be able to enjoy the system, I'm sure, and more power to them. But I, for one, am not going to be able to play the Dreamcast without remembering such items as the 32x, Sega CD, and the Saturn.
Actually most companies already do lose money on the console hardware, because, like you said, they make it up easy on game royalties. However, the only threat I can see MS posing is one of undercutting: Since they are so much larger than their possible future competitors, they can much more afford to have major losses on system and game prices in the first year or so of a console until the prices for the games/console come down. Although Nintendo, Sony, and Sega can afford to undercut each other somewhat, they just can't do it in the big way that MS could.
Microsoft's entry into the console market is about more than a PC company entering the console market. This is the first signs of a fundamental change in the way people will compute and who will get to deliver the machines consumers will use to compute with. What we're seeing is the beginning of the final separation between consumer level computers and workstation level computers.
Why is this happening? Because of the increases in capabilities at the lower end of the market, aka consumer level. Microsoft, if not the entire U.S. PC industry, can no longer ignore the console market because if they do now they will give away control of the consumer level computer market to companies like Sony and Nintendo. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but in the near future. So what is really going in isn't so much about a company entering a new market but a company having to create a presence to ensure future market share. Basically what you're seeing is the "VCR"ization of the consumer level computer. (I'm not using "PC" because that has too many preconceived notions attached to it)
People talk like Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sony are putting out machines but the reality of the situation is that they are simply backers of different platforms. Yes, Nintendo too. The "Dolphin" is not a single machine but a development platform that is upgradable like a PC. As a matter of fact, Nintendo's "Dolphin" isn't even supposed to have a DVD drive, Panasonic's is. What this means is that the next round of battles should be looked at in the context of situations like Beta Vs. VHS, not Sony Vs. Microsoft Vs. Nintendo.
And it is precisely because of this reason that all you guys out there who thinks Sony will be king of the hill in the next round should think twice. Sony has always chosen to go with their own proprietary platforms and have paid dearly for it. It's already common knowledge that thanks to internal squabbling Sony has already decided to kill the PSX2's ability to play back DVD movies, the very feature which would have pretty much sealed the PSX2's acceptance as the next VCR. Thanks to this rather unsound business decision, there is a clear possibility that PSX2 may become Sony's next Beta and this time it's going to cost Sony a lot more than anything that Beta did. Especially with so much of Sony's operating profits tied to the PSX product line, a less than spectacular performance out of PSX2 may prove fatal to the corporation as a whole.
Already the industry insider buzz is that Nintendo is the one to watch for the next round. And now with Microsoft possibly in the races, the next round may prove to be a close battle between Nintendo and Microsoft. Where is Sega in all this? Please. Sega who? They may not even be in the console business two years from now. (Their arcade devision I'm sure will continue to do well)
All in all, I'm sure it will be a very interesting next few years in deed.
pita pita pumpkin eata.
- Low power K7 at 1.0 GHz OR - Low power Coppermine P3 at 800/900 Mhz AND - NV10 "next gen" (low power, faster clock) This setup definitly ouperforms the PSX2.
IF this is indeed true:
a) NV10 (aka GeForce256) in fall 2000? Wouldn't that be a bit lame? (GeForce512 maybe)
b) What does Sega think of this? I mean they partner with M$ (BAD idea) and now M$ falls into their back. After all they own the OS so they can modify it in any way they want so Sega will always be number 2 after M$ (wasn't that the point Carmack made when Apple tried to find out which standard to follow in the 3d arena and made DirectX an option?)
c) I can still remeber articles where Bill himself said that consoles have no future and will be swallowed by HomePCs. 180 degree turnaround?
d) Maybe this "OR AMD" is a message to Intel ("stop supporting Linux so much or we'll cut your throat!") ?
e) Who wants to buy a console by a company that has a proven track record of crappy products?
Just my 2.
-- Remove 'ABC' for real email address.
Great. Another article about Microsoft. Now is the time for all you Slashdot kiddies to do the following:
- Write tons of posts containing the words "Micro$oft, M$, Mickeysoft, etc"
- Use the phrase "Windows sux"
- Explain how the MS empire is crumbling and their sales figures are a mirage
- Tell everyone how Linux rules
It would be funny if you could run linux on it......
Nintendo is just the Microsoft of consoles. They make incredibly shoddy systems and then slap 'Nintendo!' on it... heard of this ploy before? I'd much rather support Sony or escpecialy Sega --NetGhost
I think people are being silly about this ;) The only problem that I could see is AMD taking intel's place and becoming another Microsoft style chip manufacturer :( We need both companies to be on fairly equal ground, thats when we'll see the fastest innovation! --NetGhost
-- The unsig...
Thats the real question! If it has no hard drive then 'No' current games will run on it. Oh, but if it does run all the old games.... I'm hucking my MS box of evil out the window and picking up a G4 :) --NetGhost
Yes. Use a logitech for godsakes. :-)
Actuallt I have an intellimouse (rarely used though, since i made "the switch") And hey, as long as the penguin is bigger than the MS logo, you're good to go.
Opinionated Law Student Strikes Again!
But at the same time, the PSX and N64 are most certainly obsolete, but there are many games being actively developed for both. Just because hardware isn't the best out there doesn't mean it isn't usable; having a stable and adequate hardware base is much more important for console game developers than having a constantly-shifting but cutting-edge hardware base. Look at the kind of stuff that's being done on the PSX now that the developers have had a chance to figure out a lot of the neat tricks...
---
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
"'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
Quine "quine?
Come on, do you hear Intel saying this about MIPS?
Second only to the Dual Analog Shock on the PSX. I find the analog stick on the N64 to be far too rigid, and when it does break in, it breaks in *too far*, and feels like....well, bad. Plus, the DAS have the mysterious L3 and R3 buttons, hidden within the analog controllers.
Didn't Microsoft participated in the design of the MSX computer a few years (eons) ago?
. . . . . . .
may u!sh 2 sm!le at dz!z bad nn.!m!tat!ion
Wow.. as a result of no-one replying to posts I'm going to have to post my own post (figure that one). This is all about controlling IP. Microsoft has taken a look at the console market and seen the reflection test on playstations, the hardware problems on Nintendo (solved by the CD64.. aint that a beast peice of hardware?!) and they have said "my, we really could possie up some portalled applications onto people's tv screens with that". The result is rather astounding. Microsoft could stand to make massive amounts of money off a proprietry web tv that they control with obscurity. Hell, they probably could copyright all the schematics and circuit boards as "trade secrets". Maybe they will make sooo much money that they will leave the PC market. Shock, a PC market without Microsoft, will we survive? Microsoft sure would do well in an environment where users have no intelligence and no way of obtaining it (without breaking Microsoft's "trade secrets" acts). Perhaps Microsoft truely has left behind the third party developer.. or maybe the developer has left Microsoft behind. The home PC (or web tv) market has always been a confusing one. If anyone can break into it, it will be Microsoft (or some other huge proprietry company who is willing to take full control over the user). I say, let em have it. Who want's to develop for a web tv anyways? We can all live long and free on linux and open software, whilst Microsoft grows fat on the fool and his money.. or am I being to harsh on the Mom and Pop mentality?
How we know is more important than what we know.
I don't know about anyone else, but I think "Microsoft" hardware tends to be pretty good (since it's all subcontracted out)
Okay, apart from that sodding Barney Actimate thing. I'm thinking about buying one of those just so I can set fire to it.
Remember how at one time IBM and Micros~1 were humping each other's legs trying to make OS/2 the server that everyone would use, and then making WinNT to destroy their former friend and burn another bridge? Hrmm... Microsoft has a new friend. Sega is gonna go through a bit of hell on this one. making a deal with Goliath, showing him your world, and watching Goliath attempt to take it over.
I used to be a hardcore nintendo lover, but then they got this hard-line attitude about emulation, and everything related to it, being illegal. Same with Sony. May those bastards rot in lawyer hell for what they're doing to bleem. Sega actually ASKED steve snake (of KGen emulator fame) if they could use his emulator in a Genesis compilation CD for the PC. no matter what I used to think about Sega, they are my one shining ray of hope in this black "intellectual property" tar pit that the console world has become.
My advice to sega: ditch windows CE... it's a hunk of poo anyways. Use Linux or *BSD, or hurd, or whatever tweaks your knob... as long as microsoft can't screw you over anymore then they already are going to. Sega needs to survive more than any other console company, because they have proved (at least to me) that they still have a soul left.
That's just another trick of Microsoft to gain control of people's mind when they are still young. After 2 years playing with this thing, you will have no other choice but buying Microsoft Products and saying "Bill Gates is good".
There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't.
Dreamcast's primary OS is NOT CE. It also uses a customized Sega OS. Besides, the 2 or 3 games that use CE all have some sort of outstanding flaw. Hopefully Microsoft doesn't fool us all and release a 'Pippin for the new millennium'...*shudder* I'll just stick with the people that know what they're doing, thank you.
What do you do, when the BSOD (Blue Screen of Death) appears? After all, it's Micro$oft...
--- If OS were buildings, then the first woodpecker to come around would erase 95 % of civilization.
It was the best 2d game platform ever created (except for the DC.) It suffered from a bad launch and was hard to program for (t least when it came to 3d games.) Sega obviously learned from their mistakes because the DC is said to be easy to program and will have the best launch ever (at least in the US.) And if you really are a hard core gamer than you would buy a DC, because hard core gamers know that sega makes some of the best games around (check your local arcade to see what I mean.) Note that the saturn kicked butt in Japan, and the DC is only $200 (4 N64 games) any hard core gamer should afford it (and buy it.)
Ambrosia Software
is known for excellent, stable games.
Now, as far as I know, TVs can only display a resolution of 640x480 (with the exception of HDTV and such) and all the current console games take this into account, designing the games to look good at that, or often even lowers res. But computer games are designed to display on a much smaller, much higher res screen, and when they're inflated to fill a TV screen at a much lower res, won't they look like crap?
We need both companies to be on fairly equal ground, thats when we'll see the fastest innovation!
.. and a deal like this could be a step in the right direction towards just that.
Yes!
I've never seen a game console blue screen.....
Imagine, you're taking a turn on your third lap and wham.... BSOD.
---- sonoffreak
*excuse my spelling, no spell checker handy Microsoft already makes hardware. Mice Keyboards Speakers (for computers) Joysticks/Stearing Wheels and pretty much every computer periphial outside the box. also they bought WebTV. personally i think that if there going to spread outside of software into "real" hardware they should use a diffrent brand name. That way MS haters wouldn't point the finger and cry wolf a little less. main problem with microsoft, they don't use other brand names.
Actually MS Mice are manufactured by Logitech :)
-Erik-
Microsoft will try to control another computer market. Along the way they'll try to kill off sega, ninento. Just image the damage they could cause... Upon their completed task - no more sega, sony etc etc, the american government will still think "microsoft, no, there's no monopoly"... and happily watch them... while gates is playing golf with his old pal Clinton... after gates introduced clinton to a load of desparate women that gates knows...!!! IMO, microsoft will fail miserably... no games reputation. all the console geeks already have their tried and trusted hardware. I'll rotfl while microsoft fail disamally in the console market. Just imagine it, your playing your faviourite game, and suddenly.. the blue screen of death!!! lol
Microsoft doesn't control "everything" in computers. They still are struggling to control the business world, and Wall Street is 100% SUN Microsystems...
Opinionated Law Student Strikes Again!
? i just like f*ing around!!! :-)
Surely the launch title ought to be a port of xbill?
--
They might actually be good at making beer, or some other form of alcohol. I figure they're marketing department had to be wasted to think this one up.
I wonder if Microsoft Beer 1.0 will be an irish stout. I'd buy a bottle, then set it next to a real bottle of Guinness and watch them fight to the death.
cheese logs keep my wang warm at night.
Check outh tml
http://www.next-generation.com/jsmid/news/7540.
"According to sources quoted in the article, Microsoft has kept quiet about X-Box so as not to affect the launch of partner Sega's Dreamcast, which can also use Windows CE technology, but it will be released in Fall 2000 for under $300. The article speculates that based on Microsoft's history and business strategies, the machine will probably be an open platform, like the PC, allowing anyone to develop for it without having to become a Microsoft licensee. It is also possible that X-Box games will run on PCs without further modification. "
Basically a dumbed down PC. Really.
Its gona be fast enough to emulate a PSX1 100%
Actually, no.
The PSX2's sound subsystem will contain the same processor as the PSX CPU. Hence, rather than emulate the processor, it'll just use the one it has.
It's a pity that Sony have counted out trying to outperform the PSX1 the way Bleem! does (intercepting 3D API calls and running them through Direct3D, for higher resolution than a PS1 could muster).
--
I guess that is why there has never been an x86 chip in a game console before. Even the 8-bit chip in the dreamcast's VMS (memory card/ portable game machine) is RISC based. There was talk of nintendo using powerpc in dolphin. That is the closest anyone has come to putting a PC chip into a console till now.
The psx had less than 100,000. With 300,000 pre-oders sega is set to make more money in one day (9/9/99) than anyone in history. They have got more games than any other system at launch (and most of them are awesome!) They have the support of almost every single 3rd party game company (except for square who never liked Sega and EA who always is a bit shy when a new console comes out.) Sure the psx2 will be more powerful, but the N64 was more powerful than the psx1. IMHO anyone who counts sega out already doesn't know all the facts.
Microsoft sees their pc software market shrinking down to primarily having games, they know the biggest money is in console games, so they need to get into that market. The only problem is the competition, Microsoft will not be able to bully their way into the console market as long as Sony is still king.
>>>please remove "nospam" from email address
Hmmm.... This isn't entirely factual. The US Dreamcast is shipping with a 56K modem that is swappable for future upgrades including ethernet for cable modems/DSL connections. I don't see home connections getting much faster than this in the next couple of years. PSX2 isn't announced to ship with any modem but will likely feature similar modularity allowing for multiple types of connectivity.
There are aspects of the M$ rumor that are pretty revolutionary for the console market. It scares me that it's coming from Redmond. Given Microsoft's track record, the already f*cked up world of console gaming is going to get a whole lot wackier.
And on the Linux front, rumors of PSX2 Linux SDKs abound. And possibly a slimmed-down Linux kernel running as the PSX2 OS?! Interesting times indeed...
Yes, you can play Goldeneye and Zelda64 on your PC. It's called an Emulator. And it actually works very well. Plays just as good as the originals on some games. Mario 64 is Perfect!
gives me one more reason to buy a $99 playstation :)
I think it's a waste of time for them to even try.. Even the top-top end PCs aren't going to even graze the performance of the PSX2, and MS isn't a trendy name with a good reputation for quality home entertainment like Sony. The MS console would also almost certainly not run existing PC games, so the PSX2 wins there too.
Is it just me, or has the console war effectively turned into a one horse race? Let's face it - the N64 didn't do what Nintendo had hoped, and the Dreamcast is doomed - 10 minutes in a games shop at the weekend showed this - several people spotting the 'Dreamcast available Xth October!' sign and asking when the playstation 2 would arrive.
Hopefully this thing will be killed before it stinks up the marketplace like Divx did. Three points:
By fall of 2000, the Sega Dreamcast will have been out a year, the Nintendo64 and new Dolphin box will have built some momentum and Sony's follow-on PlayStation2 will be hitting its stride with complete backward compatibility with thousands of games. Any one of these consoles (especially, and probably, Sony's) could wipe the floor with X-Box because of market momentum, consumer loyalty and brand awareness alone.
Console videogame OSs are also rock-solid stable (CE is an option, not the core, on Dreamcast), and they already run on workstation-level chips with equally brawny graphics co-processors, both of which are often 64-bit or better, and god knows how fast they'll be a year from now. (With apologies to all you open-source folks, this stability is because, at least in this case, each of these companies maintains tight, proprietary control over their hardware-software sets.) M$ can call it a game console till they're blue in the face, but if the hardware and software guts are hardly different than a crappy eMachines box, it won't be stable enough for the pre-teen kids and soccer moms who will have to run it.
As for the "may have other functions" line, my guess is this might be a play for set-top cable tuning. If that's the case, it's worth nothing that WindowsCE may not yet be a qualified real-time operating system, which it would have to be. CE is shipping on some set-top boxes today, but only as middleware, because that industry set up a consortium to keep all boxes open-source specifically to checkmate M$. And if M$ tries to position X-Box as some kind of "embrace and extend" advance, expect the $hit to hit the fan. M$ (or Dell or whoever) can build all the set-top tuners they want, but if they stray from the Open Cable specs, no cable system will buy them, not even the ones M$ invests in.
these were exactly my thoughts, and here I was wondering what the heck Iwas missing when people were talking about Dreamcast ports going to be made easier for the PC.
"I just can't sit while people are saying nonsense in a meeting without saying it's nonsense" J Watson, Sci Am 288:(4)51
An ineteresting consequence of this move may be that SDKs for game consoles may shoot down in price. Remember what actually makes the money for companies like Nintendo, Sega and Sony is the royalties they make from the sales of the games. If Microsoft jumped into the industry they would probably use their standard tactics of undercutting the competition where it hurts *them*.
This gives a result that MS enters the market and loses money on the hardware (not like they can't afford to). They give away their SDK and don't ask royalties for games. Game developers will swamp to this banner as they get to make more money for themselves, and still undercut the game prices on the other consoles. Sony and co have to do the same to remain competitive, but as they are already losing money on their consoles that are already out there, they stand a lot more to lose. Also it becomes a competition of who can afford the most loss. In that kind of race, my money is on Microsoft.
John Wiltshire
Fear: When you see B8 00 4C CD 21 and know what it means
Microsoft tryed to get into the game console market before. Sega's Dreamcast is supposed to be running WindowsCE.
But the truth is different. Microsoft could not deliver CE on time for the Dreamcast's launch here in Japan. In reality, all the big game makers have written their own OSs for their games. Much faster, more reliable. Because of this delay, the Dreamcast has basically failed here in Japan and Sega is in a really dangerous state financially.
My only proof would be that virtually no games have been ported from Dreamcast to PC. Though that been the basic idea behind using WindowsCE and DirectX on the Dreamcast.
With PCs becoming so cheap, I see no sense in creating a game console with x86 compatible chip and PC architecture. Better buy a cheap PC.
The whole idea of integration between television and computer has been around for quite a while now and is happening, albeit slowly.
You see, the PSX2 will have a DVD drive and the ability to attach a modem. And it'll be available for around £250. Well cheaper than most pc's today.
So..kids will use this to surf the net and play interactive games..... they will not be using a large PC and not using windows.....The PSX2 will eventually become a PC with added periphials....Microsoft could be fucked.
What I want to know is how Microsoft intend to compete with Sony who substitute the hardware costs with game licencing.
Intel will not sell the x386 chips at a loss so MS can dominate a market, and neither will any 3-D board manufacturer. And since MS cannot control the hardware, they cannot control the software that runs on it, nor make any money licencing games (They don't on a PC.)
It's one this distributing IE over the net and CD's everywhere to crush Netscape when the actual costs are are tiny compared to hardware manufacturing and distribution costs.
The only thing going for it is the fact that the games can be a lot cheaper as the will not have to pay licencing fees to sony and saga. By the sheer fact that the could be a high volume of cheap games very, very quickly could mean that this console will get a lot more shelf space in the games stores.
Games volume and quantity (and quality) dictate console success. Not poly-fill-rate.
A linux console anyone?
Rocket science is easy. Neurosurgery, now *that's* difficult.
It's not only the random crashes, it's the large
resource consumption and stupid device algorithms
which makes Windows such a retard.
Have you used a lot of devices at once in Windows?
Probably not, it would choke your computer to death.
They just can't shake this Windows software thing. Bill repeat after me. Get rid of windows, get rid of windows get rid of windows, get rid of windows. Now go to your source code and type format C:. Feel better? I thought so.
Hmm.. Last time an app crashed and dumped core it didnt bring all my other processes to a halt untill I hit return or bring the machine down...
hmmmm lets see if they can match nintendo, sony and sega's brand names in the console market..... nope. Can't bully your way into this market megalosoft..... sony, nintendo and sega already control it and if you take wince away from sega they just might use a stripped down version of BeOS instead.....
---Got Coffee?---
Microsoft is letting WebTV drift off into no-where for a reason!!
They know the cheap (free?) PC is destroying most of the market for the standalone WebTV unit.
WebTV's only (limited) future is in integrated SatTV, Cable and HDTV boxes, like the new unit from Dish Network which aims to be WebTV, Dish Reciever and TiVo in one box.
well, the sega dreamcast at Toys R Us was locked Hard. The only thing I can attribute to that would be the CE logo on the front.
Lowmag.net
YOU have trust in MS, May i ask WHY?
savo@twcny.rr.com
How much you wanna bet the only games for it will be Minesweeper and Solitaire? (:
Actually it would be impossible, since it takes money to build things. There is no army of pathetic geeks willing to work on an assembly line for free.
It's not just computers that they'll control. The future. The whole enchilada.
Unless they (and everyone who wants to be like them, and there are a LOT out there) can be stopped, we're looking at a rather soulless world in centuries to come, with almost no chance of humanity ever escaping.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
heh, too bad DIVX is dead, otherwise MS would have THAT monstrosity on board. Search your feelings, you know it to be true.
"The number of suckers born each minute doubles every 18 months."
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I was thinking exactly the same thing myself. PC games publishers would also have to undergo serious re-thinks as to their strategy. Just about every PC game I buy needs some sort of patch to make the game work properly, or fix some bug.Granted, a lot of problems are due to the myriad of PC configs out there, but a lot of them are because of shoddy testing.
Do they expect Joe Average to put up with such shoddy product? I don't think so. One of the reasons I enjoy my consoles is that they work, and in all my years of playing console games, I have never had one crash.
The PC games software market has a long way to go before it could take on the console market.
We should get together and kill bill gates and rape his wife and daughter. Linux ROOLZ!
That'd be great! MS has all sorts of great technologies that would work very nicely in a game system. I'll be on of the first in line to buy the MSGamestation... just as long as it has a decent price.
You're wrong there, Whilst there is a Bios in the machine that will provide basic functionality, Sega provide two sets of libraries, one WinCE, the other Sega's own libraries, and from what I've been hearing most developers have been using Sega's rather than WinCE, which I see as a really positive step, or maybe it's just because if the rumours I've heard are true, the WinCE libraries have a memory footprint of about 6MBytes (I could be totally wrong here, as I say it was only a rumour), and no one wants to loose that much memory on their console before they've even started writing the game.
AMD chips are $30 more, and the motherboards are $120. However they are 8% faster.
Yes, the Microsoft game console will feature two new games to thrill the public.
XBillG (tm) lets you and Chairman Bill run around installing Windows2000 on Unix workstations! Just watch out for the nasty Penguin Stomping der Slicing Machine!
BSOD (tm), an all-time classic brings that heart warming blue glow to a TV screen near you!
More details at http://world-dom.microsoft.com/ !
Nintendo and Sega owned the video game market since before I was born. Sony only really gained leverage with the PSX. They were able to that because they are a very large corporation.
What I see as critical is the fact that Sony was well suited to jump into the game hardware industry; Sony was already a diversified electronics company. Microsoft is only really suited to publish games and make control pads.
The entirety of Microsoft's success has been based on its ability to use its Operating System monopoly to lever its way into the market until its product matures into the defacto standard.
The problem Microsoft will face is that it'll be in an entirely alien position. Sony, Sega and Nintendo are not small-fry software startups waiting to be crushed by the Microsoft juggernaut. Nor are they lumbering giants past their use-by dates. Between them they've owned the console market for about as long as MS have owned the PC market, and they don't seem to be showing too many signs of vulnerability.
Microsoft's OS monopoly will be meaningless in this market. Sure, they could stick CE on it, and make it do email and web-browsing, but in the end, a gaming console is about the games, and the OS is just the screen you get when you've got no CD/cartridge in the slot.
On the other hand, if they fix it so that their console games will also run on a Wintel PC with a 3d card and DirectX, then that'll get the developers on board pretty sharply. This is something that console manufacturers could never do, because every PC version of their game that sold would be a reason not to buy the console. But for MS, it's just moving from one of their products over to another.
So the big, and very interesting question is how Microsoft is going to adjust to being the small fish in a big pond, and what cards they're going to play to drain some of the water.
Charles
The more I learn about the Internet, the more amazed I am that it works at all.
The mice aren't bad but them joysticks they make just feel shoddy.
Anyway on the console front I think they'll have a hard job competing against the likes of Playstations and N64's and whatever SEGA call their console. Because although Microsoft are a recognised name in the PC world, I don't see their name getting them anywhere in the console world. It'll take a lot of marketing for them to even get a small share of this market.
--
A "cheap" pc won't play your latest games. Will Microsoft's console be any different?
How we know is more important than what we know.
"I have a good idea why it's hard to verify programs. They're usually wrong." --Manuel Blum, FOCS 94
I have a MS Mouse 2.0 with a penguin on it, am I a hypocrite?
Shine on, you crazy diamond.
Perhaps it's not x86 based - Transmeta anyone?
Perhaps it's not WinCE OS - Amiga Objects anyone?
I'm not even going to nention the Wolf...
When you read the stuff what MS did to DR-Dos, what they are together with the NSA, when you read the MS EULA, it has to become clear to everybody that it is not about more efficient software or less bugs anymore!
It comes down in the meantime to much more basic things like freedom and privacy!
Let's not wait to get a situation like in Brasil! You aren't allowed to help yourself anymore if the air condition works wrong! Bit Brother is Watching You! Already!
Let's finally invent our free computer resources! Let's plug together a cheap CPU, a renderer, some memory, and a CD-ROM and get out a free Console/Set-Top-Box as Linux engine! That should not be too difficult, shouldn't it?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
You are all forgeting Nintendo Nintendo's next system, codenamed dolphin is going to easily be as good and probably better then the psx2 the initial specs released already prove that and supposedly nintendo has a hell of a lot of tricks up their sleaves that have not been revealed yet. So don't forget who has been in the console seen for ages and knows what they are doing. NINETENDO
Well, while i don't like MS to begin with, i don't think they'd do well for other reasons. Has anyone played an MS game? They suck, hardcore. How many big titles have been on the MS label? If i recall the only half decent game was a boring flight sim, that barely did anything, and crashed alot. Also, i don't know why they bother, the computer is the best gaming platform around! I got tired of those low res slow things years ago.
Look. Poly fill-rate, whether or not Nintendo or Sony or Sega is "Cooler" than MS is not going to decide whether or not MS succeeds in this market.
Its content. Simple. He with the best games and the most games (quantity/quality) wins. Plain as the nose on your face.
It doesn't matter if its x86 or stripped-down SGI hardware. It doesn't matter if the thing runs Windows or has IE on it. Nobody cares. Consumers buy game consoles based on the games available for them. Maybe Microsoft will win, maybe they won't. But its going to depend on what titles they get written for the platform, not who's been in the market longer, not who has cooler games *now*, but who will have cooler/more games when the things are actually competing in the marketplace.
My journal has hot
I'm just gonna lose it if I hear one more post like this. For some reason, people (even some Slashdotters) are eternally blind to the real problem with Microsoft. And it sure as hell ain't marketing. Of course they're not killing people. But you have to realize the significance of Microsoft controlling computers. Computers are at the heart of our world. Everything revolves around them. They are information source, entertainment sources, gateways to communication. Computers and design are my passion. They are what I want to do with some significant part of my life. To have a single company walk up and dictate what that will look like is frightening. People hardly realize what Microsoft is trying to control -- personal computers, household appliances, cable access, internet access, press/media, games, web servers, web browsers, document management. You name it. The problem is, too many people see computers as merely and industry -- purely dollars, which is SO frustrating to me. For me, computers are a canvas. They are what I use to create artwork in many forms -- design, programming, websites. The equivalent of Windows taking over everything for me, is the equivalent of somebody telling me "you can no longer use the color red in your artwork." That's the significance. Do you really want somebody to dictate to you how to write software, how to create artwork, how to access information? I sure as hell don't. But it's apathetic people like you that are going to allow it to. Just because it's not literally life and death, doesn't mean it's not worth fighting for. Our society holds the arts at a very high value as well. - Scott
------
Scott Stevenson
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
I wonder if this is a sly way for Micro$oft to gain entrance to the Hardware Market... maybe with a system like Nintendo's famicom? It will be interesting to see how this compares to the hyped playstation 2
Producing satire is kind of hopeless because of the literacy rate of the American public. - Frank Zappa
The box will be running Intel OR AMD chips
:-)
Think about this for a second.. This is a major chance for AMD. If a large company such as Microsoft decides to use chips from AMD in a product that undoubtly will be produced on a large scale, they will be able to show that their chips are as good and as reliable as Intel, and they wil probably be able to gain much more of the PC market.
But will Microsoft choose AMD? Why should they? Well.. It just so happens that the Athlon is better than the Pentium III ! Hah!
What are the chances that the cable companies are going to support this little box? Pretty high, I'd say. The console is truely the only popular and accepted form of set-top, and MS realizes this. Given their obsession with set-tops, this move was a nobrainer.
But, as the first poster said, I'll keep my computer. This doesn't look to be a killer thing hardware-wise; at least, nothing that you couldn't get for the PC. And knowing MS, this thing will run like a PC, none of the traditional advantages of a console. A thought; it might also have the advantage of a PC, the ability to run Linux.
Basically, I think that this console will be marketed on the basis of a fast connection. That's the one advantage that the other consoles don't, and can't, have. Well, that and the GeForce.
I'm sure MS would have DirectX ported and ready to go on whatever OS they use (i think it was WinCE of some sort). Wow, a microsoft platform (win32) with DirectX. No writing of special software necessary. Just compile existing code with minor changes.
(Assuming this is true and all that.)
For Microsoft, is this the first significant entry into hardware?
Isn't it interesting how they have been buying into fields outside the traditional software, like media content and online services. This trend could probably be seen as a precautionary action in case they really would start to lose revenue from OS-market. And I would rate that a wise move from their part.
--Flam
PS. MS Console with Special CG Effects never before experienced, like the Blue Screen Of Death.
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers - Pablo Picasso
I use both a MS Intellimouse and MS Natural Keyboard, and I have no complaints.
Then how come I've had software from every console I've ever owned lock up on me? It's extremelly uncommon, but it does happen. Most likely the DC locking up was due to the game software, not CE.
Well, this can only go 2 ways. Either MS will fail enormously, or they'll blow the hell out of their competitors. What will decide it? Two things:
(1) Will the damn thing work?
Well, the obvious problem is whether or not their system even works. Nobody's gonna use or write games for a system that either crashes all the time or is just a bad game platform. And considering the hardware stats on the Playstation2 , Dreamcast, and Nintendo's new system it'd take a heck of alot to do.. slapping a PIII in there isnt gonna cut it.. But i'll give MS a little credit and assume they realize that and make a decent platform.
I've never used WinCE so i dont know how stable it is. I've never seen someone slam their PalmIII against the wall, but then again i dont suppose your Palmtop crashing would be as annoying as your PC.
(2) Can they get games?
I've seen alot of people posting that they'll just port PC games over.. this might work a little, but not for long. The only PC games that could be ported to a console system with a reasonably compact controller would be racing games, possibly some sports games, flight-sims, and 1st person shooters. Flight sims wouldnt work well, and it'd be harder to control a 1st person shooter without a mouse.. but you could do it. But the point is this limits your options. Most fighting games and rpgs (probably the 2 heaviest hitters in the console market) that are on PC are almost always either ported from consoles, or written with computers and 101+ keyboards in mind.. Anybody who wants to play a computer game is going to play it on a computer. Nobody wants to go out and by a new console system to play a game that's either going to perform as well or better on their PC (TV resolution isnt as good as most monitors.. just bigger) or that they can get on a system they're likely to already have.
Now, lets assume that MS gets over both of these problems.. they manage to build a stable platform and can port over games reasonably well. What about new games? Making a computer game Is different from making a console game. Companies like squaresoft, nintendo, activision, konami.. they know what they're doing with console games and have been at it for a Long time. Console games have to appeal to geeks, idiots, and kids.. The game cant be too complicated optionwise, preferably have stunning graphics, and be very multimedia oriented. MS makes computer games (when they do at all).. computer geeks will put up with alot for an interesting concept. Look at Civ and CivII.. the graphics arent much, not alot of multimedia, convoluted rules.. but it's fun once you learn to play. Civ would sink like a rock on a console. So MS either has to learn to make console games FAST or else pick up some external companies. This is where the title of this post comes in:
If MS tries to do the whole thing themselves, they're going to fail. No 2 ways about it. They're a computer company, not a console company. But....
If MS gets smart and they offer squaresoft, konami, et al some whopping contracts.. which they Can afford to.. nintendo, sony, and sega wont have a chance. If MS gets to them soon, before they start making long-term deals on the new systems, the traditional companies are going to be left high and dry. It's a scary thought, but MS is big enough that they could suck up all the decent game-makers and steal the scene just by having all the big names that gamers know and trust. I mean really, the system could suck but if the next final fantasy and streetfighter games are on it, it'll make money. Which we all know is what MS cares about above all else.
Dreamweaver
"If a man hasn't discovered something he will die for, he isn't fit to live" -- MLK, Jr.
Philips Electronics is planning to bring out a game console as well. Recently they bought VLSI just for that. Anyway, if MS goes ahead then at least let them use Athlon chips to save AMD.
It's not like it comes from microsoft, and its not like they spesificaly said that it *would* run windows CE (wince) in the CNET artical
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I like the Playstation's anolog "feel" better (as in how high it is, durability, position) but I think the N64 controller is more manuvarable. It seems like the PSX one is too slippy so that I can't control my character as well. And the PSX controller is also uncomfortable to me. The N64 one fits like a glove. Not to mention the wonderful little Z button on the N64....
Excellent news! With any luck, the console will play many games that currently are released on the PC platform only.
Why would this be a good thing?
Well, how many posts here do you see that say "The release of *INSERT GAME TITLE HERE* on Linux is all that's stopping me from ditching Win* for ever!!!"
Now we Linux supporters may have the opportunity to strip M$ prods from our real machines and have a $300 machine for the games alone (assuming of course that it does end up playing PC titles in some format or other).
Whaddaya think guys?
A little planning goes a long way...
If they use Athlon for the CPU imagine the emulators running on a multiprocessor platform with Gigs of Ram and good video quality... you could avoid buying the console altogether
I agree with you 100% on the way that console competitors can undercut each other.
...
But I think that it's a mistake to think that Microsoft have done this, or that they are the ones coming up with the idea.
Sony are/will *already* doing/have done it.
Okay, that sentence was fucked - because obviously I don't know for sure that Sony are going to do this, but it's pretty clear to me that their announcement earlier in the year that the next-gen Sony console will require developers to use Linux as a development platform means that they're going to start looking at ways to open up software development.
Sony have been in the console-developer-mindset-control business for a lot longer than Microsoft has (I said *console*-developer), so they know what console games programmers want and how to deliver it to them.
I'm not so sure that Microsoft, with its strategy of developer-mindset control is going to cut it against Sony, who understand pop culture (thus, the people who play/make video games) much better than Microsoft.
MSDN may now be a cult in grand tradition, but its a different school. It's all about closed technologies, and keeping up with those technologies. MSDN is as about as closed a community/technology resource as you can get, especially in this Internet universe that most developers are becoming a part of these days...
I think that because of this, Sony are about to raise the bar for developer control, by using the same techniques and opportunities for developer mindshare homesteading that exist in That Other Huge Developer Cult: Linux.
And I don't think Microsoft knows how to pray at that altar just yet
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Anyone wonder about the cost of this thing? I'm sure the new GeForce will cost as much as PSX2....isnt that just one part of this new box? BTW i'm not sure but doesnt M$ have a horrible track record for writing software to hardware? Look at the system requirments of win2k for an example...
-sony will win this round agian
-drop out now M$
-brand0n
"when i needed you most, when i needed a friend, you let me down now, like i let you down then."
I'd imagine an MS console would look like this: an X86-descendant CPU, a 3D accelerator, a swish sound card, USB, presumably all built into a single board. Peripherals (controllers, lightguns, mouse, modem etc) would be USB or similar. There would be a DVD-ROM drive on board. We already know it'll run something akin to WinCE.
But let's take a look at the only Next-Gen console currently available -- the Dreamcast. As well as upping graphic/sound/CPU performace, Sega have *innovated* in several areas.
The VMU (visual memory unit), for example, is a stroke of genius -- it's like a PS memory card, but it slots into your controller, and gives you an LCD screen which a game can use for whatever it likes (speedo, stuff the other player shouldn't see, etc).
That's clever -- but the VMU also works as a standalone mini-gameboy-type-thing, into which you load software via the Dreamcast.
That would be enough to convince me that Sega are having good ideas; but there's more -- the VMU's connector is the same shape as its socket, so you can plug two VMUs together for two-player pocket shenanigans.
That's just an example of innovation in consoles. I can imagine Sony doing similarly clever stuff with the PS2 if I could guess what, I'd be earning a whole lot more than I do now.
I really can't imagine MS doing anything that imaginative. They are doomed to imitate.
Still, the public might fall for it.... they usually seem to.
--
Subject Only
Than Intel, who have a notoriously frosty relationship with MS. AMD are relatively friendly. (Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!)
I can't imagine why anyone designing a new game machine would want to use PC processors and operating system software, even WinCE. Why pay the price of high power consumption, mediocre performance and high cost? I would use a fast and efficient RISC CPU, DVD drive, custom silicon for audio and graphics, and a tight real-time OS kernel. It's a game machine, not a general purpose computer.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
I can't see anything funny in here.
Just wait and see it all become realSeems more like a prophecy to me.
Several other people have already made this point, but there is a good analysis of this over at The Register. Microsoft are not proposing to make hardware, they are proposing an 'open' hardware spec that Dell etc, could choose to manufacture, and subsequently pay WinCE licenses for. The aim is to gain a big slice of the OS market for the expected market for combined set-top box and games console unit. It remains to be seen whether this market will truly suceed - unlike Sega, Sony has not announced network connectivity for the PSX2.
Will the box shifters be prepared to risk supporting the console end of the market? Or will they fear that it will reduce the number of full PCs they can sell, and choose to leave this thing still-born?
MS has got to have some plan/deal with isps to force/compel people to get one of these things. If not, this thing is already dead.
The console and home markets are two different worlds as far as game design goes. This is not the first and not the last time a company has tried the "just a simple recompile, and we'll have a shitload of content for the new platform." Think of land war in South East Asia...you don't want to try it again. Ports of pc games are simply not compelling for a console.
A good indication of why the Dreamcast failed(or is failing) is the game company exec who was quoted as saying his company would WRITE for the PS2 and PORT to the Dreamcast. I know of companies who could have had Dreamcast titles will little effort, but decided it just wasn't even worth the minimal effort. The same applies to the MS box.
At best right now game company execs might consider letting an idle pc programmer spend some time fooling around with the new ms box hardware, and MAYBE put out a port of an existing title just to test the water.
There is absolutely no reason for companies to put resources into creating original CONSOLE(as in not a home pc port) content for this box. Game companies are ramping up to PS2 and soon Dolphin development.
I don't use pcs except at work, so I'm not familiar with pc prices. But won't people be able to get similar hardware for a couple hundred bucks by next year. Maybe that's a bit optimistic, but pc prices seem to be in freefall right now.
Also, the PIII and K7 are such hot(30w-50w?) pieces of shit, is this box going to have to have a fan or some way of cooling the cpu?
Like I stated first, there has got to be an internet angle behind this box, or it's a total joke.
AC for a reason
Anonymosity - The hostility resulting from the belief that you will never be confronted with your trolling, because you believe your comment is anonymous and can't be traced to you.
He's a genius, but not smart enough to know it.
i really am "The Fleck" but why log in when you can have anonymosity
How can you claim to have anonymity when you tell us who you are?
Unless, as you are most certainly able to claim, you are lying to us. In which case, I wonder, why go to all the trouble?
Answer: Troll Anonymous Cowards (though I will admit, some are very wonderful people)
Insert mind here.
I had a chance to talk to the developers at E3, and yes there is a Wince mode for Sega Rally. However, they recommend that you don't use it if you don't have to, because it's crappy and slow.
SEGA itself is recommending that you don't use WinCE if you don't have to.
I have a Sidewinder Precision Pro. It doesn't feel shoddy to me.
--
Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
AMD- good enough for games. Intel- good enough for Real Work. No self-respecting PHB would ever buy AMD again.
Point well taken. This is a marketing hot potato, and Intel may be smart enough to let AMD have it if they are foolish enough to want it. AMD would undoubtedly benefit from NOT supplying MS with chips, as they would avoid both a potential very-publicised supply problem, and directly associating their high-end processors with games. AMD's just now entering the brainspace of many PHBs, and finally taking the lead in the brainspace of many geeks. Why screw that up? "We've trashed our reputation, but we'll make it up in volume... oops, we can't produce the required volume?" I don't think so.
This whole thing just seems like a desperate attempt by M$ to capitalize and seize control on a market that they would normally never venture into except for the fact that it has '$' signs written all over it. But thats exactly what I thought about Sony when they entered into the bunch.
It doesn't matter what Microsoft puts into their system, what it ends up coming down to is who will develop the games for it. When you look back at the past gaming consoles you will see that the success of a system has been entirely based on the games that came out for it. I know if Squaresoft for some crazy reason had decided not to develop for the Playstation things would have ended up very different then they are now, and if Zelda64 had not had so much hype! there would probably be alot less dissapointed N64 owners.
What I'm trying to point out is that no matter how good a system is and how many features it has it's success is still predetermined by who's making games for it. The 3DO for example was a nice looking system probably the most powerful for it's time but they never had many strong titles to make people want it. There is a reason everyone I know opted for a Playstation, the most common reasone is "Nintendo64 has better graphics, but the Playstation has better games!" (true or not, the comment speaks for itself).
Dreamcast will I'm guessing be out of the picture by the time Microsoft's beast is released. Why you ask? Because I've noticed Sega brings out systems that suck compared to competition ahead of them and make their sales only by leaching off being the first to introduce technology to the market. In the end developers leave for something better like they will with the Playstation2 coming up(sorry, my opinion). So the PSX2 and Nintendo's Dolphin I'm guessing would be it's only rivals. Since their is a buyer loyalty factor in the video game system business i.e. like Pepsi and Coke but Playstation and the N64. Microsoft will have to find a way to lure buyers from those names which is hard and will take alot of $$$ worth of advertising to do so, but its not a problem for them.
Nintendo has alrady lost it's appeal with older gamers for obvious reasons. Why do you think those stupid mascots and the hip crazy advertising attempts coming from playstation were supposed to appeal to like with sponsoring Much Music and stuff. Actually Playstation is just coping the same style of promotion Sega used to use with the Genesis. Microsoft I think will find it harder to get the very large teenage market to buy there system unless they get down and work at that level which is sad, but the average buyer is as informed as what they see on TV, and I dont see Microsoft taking that route. I have a strong prediction though that Microsoft will do well and nobody will no why and no how but for some reason they will seem to grab a large market, and wont stop until all is conquered. I see them making development very inticing to programmers including Direct3D excelleration and support for all Windows development tools ie VC++ etc..
Someone said Microsoft might decide to create a way to play Windows games or something on thier system. The reason people by the systems though is because they are cheaper solutions then computers! enough said. WebTV, the low cost PC buyers are in the internet business not Gamers. Unless its multiplayer through internet it doesn't interest me.
As my ending note the name Microsoft just doesn't scream Video Game system and I think buyers will feel the same. With all the frills and gimmicks Microsoft is bound to throw at us, we actually have a choice with this one! unlike Windows and I think Microsoft will feel it. (yes, I know Linux)
From Dan G...
Here we go again.. Microsoft has again realised that they are missing out on tons of cash, and will do their best to catch up with the rest.
But let's face it; I really doubt that they can pull this through.. Microsoft are not famous for their games or software stability, and they are not really a hardware company, so they will need much help.
But get ready for the most over-hyped product ever, as Microsoft will try to battle the Sony Playstation 2, Nintentos next machine and the Sega Dreamcast.
.. and smile as they (Sony, Nintento, Microsoft, Sega) all try to make better machines than each other.
This will probably just be good for all of us, as consoles will evolve much quicker with more competitors on the market.
This box will use a x86 clone, and the saturn uses an SH4, i belive. it would posible to put Games for both on the same CD, however and have them share resources. licening issues aside
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
The competition will be everyone just staying away from a console that will crash every three hours. Bios rom bug fixes available from the web using the internet capabilities of the device, but flashing the bios can render the console useless piece of junk if the moon is waxing in the 7th phase.....
I don't think there's really any way they can't screw this one up. Microsoft just wants to expand again. It sounds like it'll basically be a PC that acts like a console, but by using x86 hardware, how many new games are they going to get? Games on a Nintendo 64, for example, have a much different feel than on a PC (Goldeneye and Zelda64, for example), and you can't get them on a PC. For this, what's the point? and do they really think they can beat Nintendo, Sony, Sega, etc. at this, who have been at this for years? I, for one, think the Nintendo controllers have always been second to none ;)
the hardware will be 'open' in that anyone can make one, just like a PC. at least that what I assumed from the artical. They said that it would be made by "third partys" like dell or compaq, so there might be some limitations.
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
microsoft isn't making the hardware, there just laying out the specs, just like they do for PC's
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
It makes absolutely no sense (to me anyway) to make a hardware game platform when the market has three huge players there already. The Dreamcast is running CE already so what's the niche there? Sony and Nintendo are planning some amazing graphics horsepower consoles in the next 12-18 months. MS should be targeting WebTV. It has enough of a consumer base to create a market, but isn't big enough to have real power in the computer world. Will it be good for everyone to have MS dominate another market? no. Will it be good to get more people online, newbies or otherwise? yes.
-Barry
While you're playing grand turismo (if you can even get it started), when you crash your car it goes "oops there has been a fatal error in module gtr32.dll in fa4c:10fd, but since you were going to crash your car anyways, it doesn't matter"
Do the math. For the sake of arguement, lets say that every manufacturer that produced parts for this X-Box was willing to sell with their parts at cost, they still cannot sell the system for $300, at least not for a year, unless their figuring in a $400 MSN Rebate or something. Unlike Sony, who has finalized the release price on the PSX2 ($270 US), which will be annouced on Sept 13. (Check www.psx2.com for more details.) How can Sony deliever this price point? Two reasons: All the parts are manufactured by Sony, so there is no overhead in the production of their unit. Second, they will sell the unit below cost, and make up the difference through small licencing costs. These two key business points are vital to a consoles sucess, and MS isn't a big enough conglomerate to manufacture the machine and its parts itself. This annoucement is just a sceme created by MS, NVidia and Intel to debunk as many future PSX2 customers as possible. (I say future, because it's going to be at least another year before the PSX2 will be sold in America) The sale of Sony's PSX2 will effect year 2000 sales of these 3 companies in at least some small way. Sony will win this war, even if the GeForce256 gives a maxed out PC a slight edge. Who wants to play high polygon versions of Quake and Red Neck Rampage, when you can play a games that have $40+ million dollar development budgets? That's why I use game enhancing emulators like Bleem! and TrWin when my PSX power isn't good enough, because I haven't seen one PC game thats more revolutionary as DOOM was when it first came out.
BTW, some people have been talking about MS involvement with the Dreamcast. Please understand that only 3 games, out of all those developed for Dreamcast, have CE as the underlying OS. CE is in no way embedded into the system, it can only be loaded from a game CD at boot time. CE uses too much resources and ads cost to a games distribution, so most companies see no merit. Microsoft made a version of CE that runs on Dreamcast, so that they could let smalltime PC game developers recompile Direct X PC games to run on Dreamcast, but the licensing costs are still too high for most developers. At this time Microsoft has little involvement with the Dreamcast, and it would seem that they don't plan on getting any more involved. Just though I'd clear this up.
-HuangBaoLin
Anyone remember MSX? Way back in the heyday of the Commodore 64, Sinclair Spectrum, and Atari 800, Microsoft got the bright idea to build an 8-bit of their own. My memory is fuzzy about the details, but there was nothing compelling about the baseline design. Like CE handhelds today (and XBox, if I read right) companies that built MSX machines would add their own features to the baseline spec.
The only model I remember being released in the US was a Yamaha that featured their top-of-the-line sound chip, some MIDI ports, and two sliders (or pitch-bend wheels?) that turned the machine into a bargain-basement Atari ST fighter.
Needless to say, nobody bought any. Between Commodore, Atari, Apple, Texas Instruments, Radio Shack, and Timex/Sinclair, the American market was already oversaturated. And the sound chip in the Yamaha was the same as in my T/S 2068, IIRC.
It's a good thing that XBox is still in the planning stages, because if game-crazy PC folk like me have enough disposable income next Christmas, we're gonna be drooling over NV20s, and wondering why anyone would want to buy last year's eOne.
Keith Russell
OS != Religion
This sig intentionally left blank.
I heard that Micro$sft bought Sega and that the Dreamcast would almost be a PC. It wouldn't make much sense to do that. I don't know if this is true or not though because it was just people talking about it in a games store.
Consoles pride themselves on stable systems which Microsoft cannot provide. They will have a hard time finding games for a system which has no background when there are better alternatives because game-makers would rather not be hindered by the instability of the "OS" of the console. When game-makers for the consoles make a game, they make it knowing that it has to be good because they cannot provide any of the patches or "updates" that Microsoft has so much fun with. I predict that Microsoft will not be able to keep up in a world that has to make it right the first time. When Microsoft makes the software (WinCE Game Edition?) for this console, they will be unable to make a stable system the first time around and consequently, they will fail. The target market has little to no experience with "Fatal Exception Errors" when they play games. The players that sit down to play on their Microsoft game console will not stand for errors at every turn. And so, Microsoft will fail in their quest to expand and conquer.
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." - Thomas Jefferson
It will be interesting to see just who Microsoft's console manufacturer partners with to build this. If I were that console manufacturer, I'd choose Intel and its Celeron for a number of reasons:
1. The Celeron has already proven itself popular with PC gamers;
2. The Celeron is already dirt cheap, and the choice of very low end PC boxen ($300-$400).
3. It's already up in the 500 MHz range, making it quite competitive with current consoles. The notable exception would be the new Playstation II, if it ever does get build and shipped.
4. They've got the staying power.
In spite of impressive advanced press about Athlon, AMD has a poor track record for keeping up with market demand. It's been lossing quite a bit of money lately, so it's long term viability comes into question. If Athlon becomes popular with PC manufacturers and if, by some quirk of fate, the MS console becomes popular, there is no guarantee that AMD could keep up with demand.
I like an underdog, but I like underdogs that can execute and help me grow my business. And that means having Intel as a partner, not AMD
Of course, it begs the question of why the x86 architecture was choosen. The only x86 chip that was a decent embedded choice was the very old 80186. Intel is currently pitching StrongArm and its derivatives at this specific market. Alternate embedded chips would be MIPS or PowerPC. And Windows CE already runs on MIPS. A PowerPC port should be straight-forward.
Lack of useful information in the article seems to indicate this is a trial balloon from Microsoft marketing.
M$ tried ages ago with the MSX. They tried again with the MSX2, with a 16bit enhanced Z80!!??
I imagine that they've hired brains this time around (so bill's just raking in the money -- not doing the thinking), so I'd expect some slightly better innovations
Though by innovation, I mean in the normal sense, not the M$ sense (as in "innovate 'em with a rocket up the backside"
John
John_Chalisque
What you have to do is to see how long you can run a competitor's product before you hit 'The wall of death'.
'The Wall of Death' is a blue screen which tells that the application is not responding and you have to keep pressing the keys on the keyboard(or fire button in this case) to try and get back to the game.
You lose the game when you have to press 'alt+ctrl+del' or in this case all the fire buttons at the same time.
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Oh! hang on, this game is already out for Windows95/98/2000/NT.
Ahh well back to the drawing board!!
I'm afraid you've missed quite a few key points.
:-/ ). Pricing probably will be comparable to other game companies licensing fees (~$15, I think), so developers won't complain.
;), like Nintendo, Sony and (a really pissed off) Sega. Still, I think that they'll try, so support Sony! Buy a Playstation 2! :-)
How do you think M$ makes money on Sega's Dreamcast? It has the same problems you just enumerated with M$'s new platform.
"Intel will not sell the x386 chips at a loss so MS can dominate a market, and neither will any 3-D board manufacturer. And since MS cannot control the hardware, they cannot control the software that runs on it, nor make any money licencing games (They don't on a PC.)"
I think it is obvious with this move that they didn't have altruistic motives in helping Sega. : ) No, the way M$ makes money is by having CE reside on the game CD (like on the Dreamcast). That way, they charge game developers for every CD shipped. And it makes sense (or at least M$ is able to rationalize it to developers) because you get PC-like upgrades to APIs and drivers (Dreamcast CE uses a subset of DirectX) w/o the PC-like incompatibilities. The OS is loaded from the game CD, so whichever version of the OS you developed for is what is always running with your game. Of course, the HUGE downside is that the developer has to pay for an OS for every piece of software they ship (although I'm sure M$ downplays that part
Also, you can bet that if this has the M$ name on it, it will have some strong low-level checks so nobody is booting Linux (or any "unauthorized" OS) off of a CD. : )
Games will not be any cheaper. People are used to paying $40-$60 for a game, so even if there was a cost savings, the publisher would probably pocket it. Games might drop a little in price, but probably not significantly ($30).
The thing that the M$ platform will have going for it will be portability. You might not even have to recompile to get it to run on Windows. You definitely won't have to change any code if you write it for the settop. Currently you have game companies having to write multiple, wildly different ports of games (N64, Playstation, PC). For PC game programmers who think MFC are part of the C++ standard libraries, it is a major pain in the butt. Now, they won't have to worry about code portability. They can write the only way they know how and let M$ handle all of the portability concerns. They have a game that runs on a console and computer and they didn't even have to leave their M$-only comfort zone. Very scary, indeed!
The initial problem will be getting the system going. It won't be cutting edge for long and M$ has no settop brand recognition; they can't wait to build it. Unless they are terminally brain dead, they'll release it under the WebTV brand name and bundle in the corresponding functionality. Why not? They'll have the Internet connection (Dreamcast is making that standard on consoles; about time) and the WinCE version of WebTV is already done. Also, a model with cable box functionality, so that all of the cable companies M$ now has significant stakes in can use these as terminals for the interactive services supposedly coming down the pike (not to mention HDTV, as that becomes available). These added features will help to make the purchase easier to justify to consumers (as well as differentiate it from the competition) until the software library catches up (and maybe make up for the fact that the graphics for games aren't any better than the PC version?).
In addition, expect standard monitor out (maybe even digital, though I doubt it; depends on where the standards are) as well as video out. Should have DVD, since that is what the other consoles will have, so expect it to play movies. And, as always, expect M$ to price under competitors by taking a huge loss on the hardware. Afterall, this has a much more constant revenue stream than PCs.
They'll probably release new versions every one or two years, and if they're smart they'll build that in. The best way would be to use a kind of preprocessor system and have a "game compiler" build different versions of the game. They could adjust not only the code, but the resolution, polygon count, etc. of source media (DVD-ROMs have the space to hold multiple copies). But I'm rambling...
This is the worst case, as I see it. There is a lot of talk in the industry about "computing appliances". Basically, that the general purpose computer has hit saturation (~50% of American households) and to reach the other half is going to require cheap, easy to use devices that fill a more specific void (like a settop box). Can you imagine how scary it would be if M$ controlled the OTHER half of the country?
I don't think this will happen (didn't you notice the sentences opening w/ stuff like "If they aren't terminally brain dead..." and "if they're smart..."? : ), because this is new territory and M$ isn't very good at creating new markets (afterall, if no one else has done it, who can M$ "innovate" from?). Plus, it is too difficult to keep an evil plan together with all of "those meddling kids" (had to quote Scooby Doo
n8
Read the facts.
Playstations's new processor can deliver about 66 million polys per second - Peak value !!
It has a floating point capacity at about 6.2 GFlops.
In the other corner, we have Nvidia's new GeForce 256, with - I quote - "And with 50 Gigaflops of floating-point calculation capability dedicated to 3D, equivalent to the performance of a maximum configuration 256-processor Cray T3D, NVIDIA's GeForce 256 GPU delivers an unprecedented 15 million sustained polygons per second and 480 million pixels per second."
I always wanted a Cray !
http://www.playstation-europe.com/pr/prnews/old/r& d_02_03_99/cpu.txt
http://www.nvidia.com/news.nsf/htmlmedia/press_rel easesGeForce_256.html
no go fuck your mom you anial peice of shit
"Subtle mind control? Why do all these HTML buttons say 'Submit' ?"
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
GeForce based graphics in a console would be an incredible waste, and probably significantly add to the cost of the console...
Doesn't matter how big your TV is, the image is still gonna be shitty thanks to TV's using standard resolutions (such as NTSC or PAL) and no others..
which means you could have one of the best graphics chipsets in the world in your console, and a 5' screen, and you'd still be playing at close to the same res as original doom.
Of course, this is true with all consoles, which is one of the reasons i prefer PC's altogether.
you can take your GeForce 256-based console or PSX2 and play at 352x240, i'll take a GeForce 256-based PC and play at 1800x1400
And quite annoying, actualy.
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There is already DirectX api. I meet games developers that work on Dreamcast, they prefer to use low-level api from Sega to avoir DirectX bugs, I don't know if a lot of company will invest in highly bugged console. This will spend too much money. I never play on a networked game on a MS plateform, there are too much security holes.
I don't even know if they could aford them...
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I do not see what possible advantage this would have over a conventional console. You just can't compete with specialized hardware using a general purpose CPU, especially one with a heritage like x86. Current computers can compete in performance with consoles by using the brute force approach, but they are much more expensive. I don't think it is possible to use something like x86 to compete in both performance and price with something like the psx2.
Anyway, think about the hardware they are talking about. This is supposed to be out over a year from now? Using an NV10? The NV10 sounds great now, but at the speed the graphics industry moves at it will be totally obsolete in a year. And a 500 mhz processor?! In a year we will have Ghz processors. You'd be lucky to even find somebody still making 500 mhz processors. I know that AMD is only making a handful of 500 mhz Athlons right now, and they will probably stop production of that speed before the end of the year.
In short, this console sounds simply like a bad product. Of course, that never stopped M$ before.
I am not an idiot. Please use my name to email me.
"That's right, I'm quoting myself."
-Upsilon
Read the history first.
Back to the Sega vs Nintendo days, more than one nippon competitors try to enter the console market. None of them success. The only exception is Sony. After that, sega can't make any more profit. The market tells us, not more than 2 platforms is allowed in the console market.
When you install a MS Office 97, you won't install Lotus SmartSuite at the same machine. It's completely different to the game market. Customers want a lot of games, and differenet type games, not a SINGLE company can provide that. A game platform success or not, "depends on number of developers".
Back to days before playstation released. The game developers feel sick of the license, and certain unfair control from nintendo, so they voted Playstation, that's why the Sony rules! Console game developers aren't stupid, if they can survive in the current game console, why should they leave, and go to the Microsoft? The brand of Microsoft may attract certain mindless PC users,
but how can Microsoft attract the game developers?
- When your character dies, instead of "Game Over" the screen is the Blue Screen of Death.
- Your VCR will start accepting only Windows-compatable tapes.
- Everyone has to get MSNBC to download software updates to the console over the Vertical Blanking Interval. (This of course takes 6 straight hours of watching MSNBC.)
- TVs have to meet Windows Hardware Compatability tests and be on the Hardware Compatability List.
- All MS game consoles will have more RAM and storage than your current machine, and will have expansion ports for more (and of course the ports are all proprietary).
- One word: WebTV.
- Records your TV watching preferences and sends them back to Redmond for analysis. Microsoft buys the Nielsens.
- Games display ads for MSN, Win2k, etc. either full screen or as subtle references.
- MS would make it illegal to use Game Genies and such, and would attempt to harm/kill anyone attempting to modify the system by strobing the picture and causing seizures.
- Dramatic increase in sales of TVs and replacement parts as the tubes and projection screens suffer burn-in and wearing out of the blue phosphors from constant Blue Screens of Death.
- Apple makes a combination HDTV/VCR/game console/internet access device/satellite receiver/etc. that you only have to connect three cables to at an affordable price, and it comes it various colors to match your interior decor. It sells well in educational, computer novice, and Sega-fan markets, but everyone else blows it off as not being a serious computer.
- And of course, once it is available, someone makes an effort to port Linux, *BSD, etc. to it.
I made my attempt at humor. If you're someone famous and you liked it, drop me a note.From the miniscule amount of information available on it in the article, it seems like this thing is basically a PC with only a processor, motherboard, 3d video card, memory, game controller interface, and some variant of Windows CE stored in ROM or Flash. Whatever it really is, it doesn't sound any more powerful than any current PC available today.
I would be willing to bet that part of the advantage Microsoft will be trying to use here is to make this box run all of the current PC games for Windows. If this is true, it means it would already have a wide range of available games -- even before this thing is released! Microsoft would not have to commission more programmers to write games for it, as the PC industry would already be doing this. Basically, Microsoft is creating a box that would bring PC games into the console game market. If this were not true, I am not sure how Microsoft would ever expect this thing to become popular, as there would be a lack of games because everybody would be programming for Dreamcast and Playstation 2.
Either way, I am kind of surprised something like this hasn't been done before, as it seems relatively simple to do. I just wonder what a BSOD would look like on this thing...
Sounds like you need to upgrade to Win98, then. Or else invest in some stable hardware.
Blaming Microsoft because Win95 crashes "three times a day" is like blaming Ford when you wrap your car around a lamp post.