Re:Loki didn't work, but other things might:
on
Last Word on Loki
·
· Score: 5, Interesting
Another, Linux-based dedicated game Distros. You pop in the CD and boot, start the game, no install required. Make the PC into kinda a game console. The wide variety of PC hardware makes this not work that well however...
OK, for the sake of this argument, we'll assume you're talking about a standard CD, maximum capacity somewhere around 650 megabytes.
To get a minimal gaming Linux distro up and running, you'll need:
a) the kernel and some essential binaries and libraries,
b) XFree86,
c) sound, networking, etc. drivers, and
d) the game itself.
Now, let's take a look at some sizes.
On my current Linux box (RedHat Linux 7.1, kernel 2.4.17),/bin is 6 megabytes./lib is 48 megabytes./usr/X11R6 is 239 megabytes. Now, even assuming you can cut these down to half the size they are on my box, that's still 173 megabytes total. Accounting for hardware differences, you'll need to have *at least* three (3dfx, nVidia, and everything else) XFree86 servers and GL driver sets, for another 21 megabytes or so. We're up to 194 megabytes at this point, and it doesn't run a game yet. Now, you can't pull out a whole game to core, as most people don't have 400 megabytes of RAM to blow on top of the game's footprint and X, etc; therefore, to prevent significant performance losses, you'll need to store the game uncompressed on CD. According to the bottom of the Quake3 box I have here, an install takes no less than 440MB. At this point, we've hit 634 megabytes.
This doesn't include audio or networking drivers, both of which are dodgy to get working even with human intervention at this point in time.
In addition, you're going to need swap and storage space that work irregardless of the user's chosen operating system, and that's going to be another 2 headaches.
(For the record: someone on OpenProjectsNet:#loki brought this up about 6 months ago, and I challenged them to come up with such a CD that would work on Windows, OS/2, FreeBSD, etc. I never heard back.)
Let me sum this up in two words:
not feasible.
For one, transgaming. Full porting takes too long, while you port, the market buys up the windows version.
Uhh, not if you have the miraculous luck to be working with a company that's not a bunch of idiots. In those cases, you can achieve simultaneous release across platforms.
By 6 months, the market was saturated. With Transgaming, they have a chance to get to the market before it *completely* dries up.
So, you propose to save Linux gaming by having people purchase the Windows versions in a manner indistinguishable from the other 95% of the public, then having them play them in a sub-par API wrapper layer. <sarcasm>Sounds absolutely freaking great.</sarcasm>
I'm inclined to agree with both Draeker and icculus. It's partially the Linux gaming community's insistence that everything should be free (if someone mirrors news.lokigames.com, take a look in loki.games.* for all of the "free binaries" threads; you will find them).
In any case, TransGaming is not the solution. The only places where I find it anywhere close to appropriate to use WineX is when I'm using free programs that are Windows-only (say, 99.999% of all 3D modelers (UnrealEd, QuArK, and WorldCraft, too...), media players, and installer packages for products produced by a bunch of single-platform ninnies), very few of which, I've found, actually *work* in Wine.
In other words, I'm inclined to agree with both Draeker and icculus. The Linux gaming community as a whole had a great opportunity to make themselves heard, and they spoiled it by being a bunch of warez monkeys, Wine boosters, and dual-booting cheapskates. Now that Loki's gone, and there's one fewer company to mooch off of, you recommend stopgap solutions that perpetuate Windows-centric gaming.
To quote the late Douglas Adams, "'Pathetic bloody planet. I've no sympathy at all.'"
- Crashes: Cannot find Glide drivers, even though Glide v3 was installed (Voodoo Banshee, by the way), and libglide.so was sitting plainly in one of the main/lib directories, I forget which.
Uhh, that's your problem. To use the Glide drivers for Unreal Tournament requires that you have Glide version 2 installed. If you have Glide 3, you need to use the SDLGLDrv (IIRC).
"With new AOL 7.0, get 70 kajillion free hours... FOR THE DARK MASTER!"
Re:Use operating systems for what they're good for
on
Loki Games Closing?
·
· Score: 1
Is it really that hard to use windows?
Uhh, yes. I have one copy of Windows (98) that I borrowed from a friend. I put up with it crashing and doing incredibly stupid things for 3 months. It was awful. I have another copy of Windows (Me) that acts the same as Win98, but makes my hard drive produce an unsettling noise every few seconds (a loud click; no, it's not my hard drive, as it's been running just fine for over a year) and shuts off many of the good features that remained in Windows. I don't have a Windows partition and I don't plan to add one soon.
Even when linux sucks for something, you don't wnat to use windows, when it happens to be good about the operation in question?
This statement shows that you've never played one of Loki's ports. At the very worst, I've seen Loki ports keep all of the flaws and quirks of the Windows versions. In many cases (*cough*Alpha Centauri*/cough*), they actually removed bugs.
Loki's ports were great (I own 3: MindRover, SimCity 3000, Tribes2) and I'm sad to see them go.:(
tho with that story a couple of weeks ago on photons being slowed down and stopped in a crystal, maybe there's more to "the law" than there appears to be.
Remember, c is defined as the speed of light (in centimeters / sec., too) in a vacuum.
Stuff like the low-latency work and scheduler tweaks should help the feel of the machine immensely.
True dat.
I installed the preemptible kernel patch about 2 (or was it 3?) days ago, and everything feels much crisper. The only gripe I have about it is that it shaved about 3 or 4 percent off the top of my 3D framerates. Ah, well.:)
So, um, how exactly does this stuff get used in controlled explosions as a continuous power source?
Some engineering school or another designed micro-thrusters that sat on a chip, ideal for microsatellites. The basic premise was that some of the chip junctions would burn through at a controlled time, allowing for a tiny little burst of propulsion. Perhaps it's one of these?
(Bart cheats his way into the gifted class, wasn't it?)
IIRC, the first episode was the Simpsons Christmas Special (the one where Homer is the mall Santa and they get Santa's Little Helper). I'd check SNPP, but I'm lazy that way.
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the reason apple macs are a little more expensive is that you get a QUALITY product,
"A little"? I don't call $1299 vs. $800 for an entry-level system "a little more expensive", I call it "50% more expensive and not upgradeable, either". And if they're "QUALITY" products, why was there the big fuss with the cracked/miscolored G4 Cubes and why did 5 out of 10 iMacs my old school got fail within the first year? And why does the new iMac's monitor swivel arm look like it'll break in half the instant someone as much as looks at it wrong?
... work with Toshiba and IBM at the hardware side to create a new OS that "would allow personal computers and home appliances to exchange huge volumes of data, including the high-resolution graphics of a television screen, through a broadband connection."
Whoa... I just thought of a great name for that...
here it is: "Cable TV"! I get copyright dibs!
Seriously, though, people have been building OSes that were about "moving data" since the beginnings of UNIX. That's what operating systems and computers are for.
PS: does anyone else find it odd that this was posted under "Apache"?
I really can't see that many people that are going to be stupid enough to replace one closed-source product (Windows) with another closed source product (Lindows). If you want something better than Windows, but non-Free, use OS X.
I'm all for the extermination of Windows, and some companies may be able to pull this off, but a move to OS X is possibly *the dumbest* thing to do if you want to get rid of your binds to Wintel. You have to buy all new apps (or use emulators which, last time I checked, change a 400MHz G4 into a 100MHz Pentium 1), purchase new computers that cost 2-3 times as much as their IA-32 equivalents, and somehow arrange an organized move from Windows to OS X. This will, at best, be a survivable disaster ("Where's my Start menu??????" your users ask, swarming the tech support desk), and at worst, leave you with several hundred thousand dollars of equipment that is now worthless except in server roles (for which, you'd be better off slapping Yellow Dog or LinuxPPC on and running it from there).
Call me crazy, but a $99 Linux distro with a decent PE/ELF loader and Win32 API sounds a lot saner than dropping $3K a seat for something you might end up regretting.:)
President George W. Bush Marks Osama bin Laden as Foe, bin Laden Suddenly Disappears
WASHINGTON, DC -- Today, President George W. Bush, taking a cue from the New and Improved (C)(TM)(R) Slashcode at slashdot.org, promptly identified Osama bin Laden as a personal "Foe" (despite warnings that his decision to do so "can and will be used against him"), a rating that carries with it an invincible -6 moderation. Osama bin Laden then proceeded to immediately disappear off the face of the Earth, never to be heard from again.
What this product manager did not realize was that, despite w00w00's "white hat" e-mail, w00w00 wasn't on their side or even their users'; w00w00 wanted to embarrass the company.
They sure as hell *did* want to embarrass AOL, and you know why? Because telling people something gets things done! If w00w00 had elected *not* to tell AOL, this bug could have been sitting out there for many months to come, and by the time AOL finally did decide to fix it, it could have reached epic proportions.
Well let's see. The situation went from a few dozen (hundred?) people being able to exploit an obscure hole to hundreds of thousands knowing how in detail.
But most boxen on which AOL is run are on narrowband connections, on the less powerful of the Windows operating systems, and turned off most of the time. Any exploitation (beyond vast compromise, which would likely be picked up by AOL staff) would be for little more than just making trouble.
Think about it: even if deployment of a bug fix hadn't been slated for another month, all w00w00 accomplished was a dramatic increase in AOL's (and AOL users') damage exposure. They did the self-righteous thing.
OK, let's do some rough math right now. Say that yesterday, J. Random Cracker found this m4d AOL exploit. He would prolly relay it to his friends to show how 1337 he was through (most likely) IRC. Assuming that he's on a fairly good-sized IRC channel, 20-50 people learn about the exploit right there. It spreads in much the same way throughout the "hacker" underground, and within hours, hundreds of thousands of l33t h4x0rz all know about the exploit and begin using it on hapless AOL users (few, if any, of whom are running any server daemons). This will go on until:
a) The magnitude of the traffic is large enough to show up on AOL's collective radar,
b) An attacker suddenly gets a pang of conscience and reports the exploit to a security firm, or
c) A computer with sufficiently robust security gets hit (either by the attackers' AOL exploits or attacks launched from the compromised computers), the admin notices, investigates, talks to AOL, gets logs, and reports the exploit to a security firm.
In any case, the collective exposure is a good deal more than what w00w00 has restricted it to (the collective malicious-user traffic to their site and the mass media for a period of one day, if AOL is to be believed). They didn't do the self-righteous thing, they did the honest thing.
You could say the same things about Internet Explorer as well?
Uhm, no, because there are already well-supported, compatible solutions available for Linux that replace most of the functionality of IE. Granted, the people who "design their pages for IE" (with piles of VBScript, preferably client-side, so that nobody but Windows users can see their Web page right), will lose hits from not having IE on *N?X, and people who frequent those pages will have to dual-boot, but do we *really* want IE, the Web browser of 1,001 security holes, installed on our *N?X boxen?
/me waits for the tide of flames to wash over him...
Don't even bother to ask how you get a Form Request Form without first filling out a Form Request Form requesting a Form Request Form...
And, don't forget, all Form Request Forms must be signed by Orange-clearance-or-up Citizens, and deposition of ink on a form below the ink's clearance first requires an Ink Request Form for the higher clearance, signed by both you and the signer...
How long do you think it will take them to unplug the speakers?
Prolly not very long. I have those same exact speakers, and (besides their lack of a subwoofer) they don't sound very great. If you combine that with MIDI (which, I'm sorry, doesn't sound that good unless really done right) I'd give them about five minutes.
If they still have them plugged in tomorrow, they are made of stronger stuff than I.;)
But if you're using up the whole kilowatt of electricity, then you need another kilowatt's worth (prolly more; up here, the nights get up to about 16 hours, which would require twice that, plus it's mighty dark during some of the local storms) of solar panels just to charge up the storage battery, doubling the cost. In addition, you need to have enough empty roof or lawn space to collect the energy...
My guess is that AntiOnline and their AntiCode archives may be a good place to start, but the newsgroup comp.virus (or something like that) is prolly the best place to check.
It's not like we're going to make RMS starve if we copy it. He doesn't make his living selling copies does he?
Maybe, after losing the GNOME board election, he's now the high-tech equivalent of the people who hand out communism/socialism/Christianity/[insert social-issue-of-the-week here] pamphlets on street corners.
Slashdot Mirror
Another, Linux-based dedicated game Distros. You pop in the CD and boot, start the game, no install required. Make the PC into kinda a game console. The wide variety of PC hardware makes this not work that well however...
/bin is 6 megabytes. /lib is 48 megabytes. /usr/X11R6 is 239 megabytes. Now, even assuming you can cut these down to half the size they are on my box, that's still 173 megabytes total. Accounting for hardware differences, you'll need to have *at least* three (3dfx, nVidia, and everything else) XFree86 servers and GL driver sets, for another 21 megabytes or so. We're up to 194 megabytes at this point, and it doesn't run a game yet. Now, you can't pull out a whole game to core, as most people don't have 400 megabytes of RAM to blow on top of the game's footprint and X, etc; therefore, to prevent significant performance losses, you'll need to store the game uncompressed on CD. According to the bottom of the Quake3 box I have here, an install takes no less than 440MB. At this point, we've hit 634 megabytes.
OK, for the sake of this argument, we'll assume you're talking about a standard CD, maximum capacity somewhere around 650 megabytes.
To get a minimal gaming Linux distro up and running, you'll need:
a) the kernel and some essential binaries and libraries,
b) XFree86,
c) sound, networking, etc. drivers, and
d) the game itself.
Now, let's take a look at some sizes.
On my current Linux box (RedHat Linux 7.1, kernel 2.4.17),
This doesn't include audio or networking drivers, both of which are dodgy to get working even with human intervention at this point in time.
In addition, you're going to need swap and storage space that work irregardless of the user's chosen operating system, and that's going to be another 2 headaches.
(For the record: someone on OpenProjectsNet:#loki brought this up about 6 months ago, and I challenged them to come up with such a CD that would work on Windows, OS/2, FreeBSD, etc. I never heard back.)
Let me sum this up in two words:
not feasible.
For one, transgaming. Full porting takes too long, while you port, the market buys up the windows version.
Uhh, not if you have the miraculous luck to be working with a company that's not a bunch of idiots. In those cases, you can achieve simultaneous release across platforms.
By 6 months, the market was saturated. With Transgaming, they have a chance to get to the market before it *completely* dries up.
So, you propose to save Linux gaming by having people purchase the Windows versions in a manner indistinguishable from the other 95% of the public, then having them play them in a sub-par API wrapper layer. <sarcasm>Sounds absolutely freaking great.</sarcasm>
I'm inclined to agree with both Draeker and icculus. It's partially the Linux gaming community's insistence that everything should be free (if someone mirrors news.lokigames.com, take a look in loki.games.* for all of the "free binaries" threads; you will find them).
In any case, TransGaming is not the solution. The only places where I find it anywhere close to appropriate to use WineX is when I'm using free programs that are Windows-only (say, 99.999% of all 3D modelers (UnrealEd, QuArK, and WorldCraft, too...), media players, and installer packages for products produced by a bunch of single-platform ninnies), very few of which, I've found, actually *work* in Wine.
In other words, I'm inclined to agree with both Draeker and icculus. The Linux gaming community as a whole had a great opportunity to make themselves heard, and they spoiled it by being a bunch of warez monkeys, Wine boosters, and dual-booting cheapskates. Now that Loki's gone, and there's one fewer company to mooch off of, you recommend stopgap solutions that perpetuate Windows-centric gaming.
To quote the late Douglas Adams, "'Pathetic bloody planet. I've no sympathy at all.'"
- Crashes: Cannot find Glide drivers, even though Glide v3 was installed (Voodoo Banshee, by the way), and libglide.so was sitting plainly in one of the main /lib directories, I forget which.
Uhh, that's your problem. To use the Glide drivers for Unreal Tournament requires that you have Glide version 2 installed. If you have Glide 3, you need to use the SDLGLDrv (IIRC).
[warning: Kohan reference below]
"With new AOL 7.0, get 70 kajillion free hours... FOR THE DARK MASTER!"
Is it really that hard to use windows?
:(
Uhh, yes. I have one copy of Windows (98) that I borrowed from a friend. I put up with it crashing and doing incredibly stupid things for 3 months. It was awful. I have another copy of Windows (Me) that acts the same as Win98, but makes my hard drive produce an unsettling noise every few seconds (a loud click; no, it's not my hard drive, as it's been running just fine for over a year) and shuts off many of the good features that remained in Windows. I don't have a Windows partition and I don't plan to add one soon.
Even when linux sucks for something, you don't wnat to use windows, when it happens to be good about the operation in question?
This statement shows that you've never played one of Loki's ports. At the very worst, I've seen Loki ports keep all of the flaws and quirks of the Windows versions. In many cases (*cough*Alpha Centauri*/cough*), they actually removed bugs.
Loki's ports were great (I own 3: MindRover, SimCity 3000, Tribes2) and I'm sad to see them go.
tho with that story a couple of weeks ago on photons being slowed down and stopped in a crystal, maybe there's more to "the law" than there appears to be.
Remember, c is defined as the speed of light (in centimeters / sec., too) in a vacuum.
Stuff like the low-latency work and scheduler tweaks should help the feel of the machine immensely.
:)
True dat.
I installed the preemptible kernel patch about 2 (or was it 3?) days ago, and everything feels much crisper. The only gripe I have about it is that it shaved about 3 or 4 percent off the top of my 3D framerates. Ah, well.
You know, deep down, that you are spineless and have sold out your beliefs for entertainment.
:)
Nah, I sold mine for $10, a box of Tic-Tacs, and a bumper sticker. No entertainment value there at all...
More like...
o/~ Your FAT's corrupted, ain't no lie / Data, bye, bye, bye o/~
So, um, how exactly does this stuff get used in controlled explosions as a continuous power source?
Some engineering school or another designed micro-thrusters that sat on a chip, ideal for microsatellites. The basic premise was that some of the chip junctions would burn through at a controlled time, allowing for a tiny little burst of propulsion. Perhaps it's one of these?
Explaining a laptop the size of a blackboard would be difficult, I think.
"I swear, officer, it's my
iBook with 14' screen!"
(Bart cheats his way into the gifted class, wasn't it?)
IIRC, the first episode was the Simpsons Christmas Special (the one where Homer is the mall Santa and they get Santa's Little Helper). I'd check SNPP, but I'm lazy that way.
>Time to remove that 'doubleclick.com 127.0.0.1' from /etc/hosts now?""
/etc/hosts correct?
;)
Is it too much to expect that slashdot, of all sites, could at least get the format of
And why does nobody seem to be trying '0.0.0.0 doubleclick.net'? In my experience, it works just as well...
Here's my entry...
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the reason apple macs are a little more expensive is that you get a QUALITY product,
"A little"? I don't call $1299 vs. $800 for an entry-level system "a little more expensive", I call it "50% more expensive and not upgradeable, either". And if they're "QUALITY" products, why was there the big fuss with the cracked/miscolored G4 Cubes and why did 5 out of 10 iMacs my old school got fail within the first year? And why does the new iMac's monitor swivel arm look like it'll break in half the instant someone as much as looks at it wrong?
Save your Mac bigotry for the Mac sites, fanboy.
... work with Toshiba and IBM at the hardware side to create a new OS that "would allow personal computers and home appliances to exchange huge volumes of data, including the high-resolution graphics of a television screen, through a broadband connection."
Whoa... I just thought of a great name for that...
here it is: "Cable TV"! I get copyright dibs!
Seriously, though, people have been building OSes that were about "moving data" since the beginnings of UNIX. That's what operating systems and computers are for.
PS: does anyone else find it odd that this was posted under "Apache"?
I really can't see that many people that are going to be stupid enough to replace one closed-source product (Windows) with another closed source product (Lindows). If you want something better than Windows, but non-Free, use OS X.
:)
I'm all for the extermination of Windows, and some companies may be able to pull this off, but a move to OS X is possibly *the dumbest* thing to do if you want to get rid of your binds to Wintel. You have to buy all new apps (or use emulators which, last time I checked, change a 400MHz G4 into a 100MHz Pentium 1), purchase new computers that cost 2-3 times as much as their IA-32 equivalents, and somehow arrange an organized move from Windows to OS X. This will, at best, be a survivable disaster ("Where's my Start menu??????" your users ask, swarming the tech support desk), and at worst, leave you with several hundred thousand dollars of equipment that is now worthless except in server roles (for which, you'd be better off slapping Yellow Dog or LinuxPPC on and running it from there).
Call me crazy, but a $99 Linux distro with a decent PE/ELF loader and Win32 API sounds a lot saner than dropping $3K a seat for something you might end up regretting.
President George W. Bush Marks Osama bin Laden as Foe, bin Laden Suddenly Disappears
WASHINGTON, DC -- Today, President George W. Bush, taking a cue from the New and Improved (C)(TM)(R) Slashcode at slashdot.org, promptly identified Osama bin Laden as a personal "Foe" (despite warnings that his decision to do so "can and will be used against him"), a rating that carries with it an invincible -6 moderation. Osama bin Laden then proceeded to immediately disappear off the face of the Earth, never to be heard from again.
What this product manager did not realize was that, despite w00w00's "white hat" e-mail, w00w00 wasn't on their side or even their users'; w00w00 wanted to embarrass the company.
They sure as hell *did* want to embarrass AOL, and you know why? Because telling people something gets things done! If w00w00 had elected *not* to tell AOL, this bug could have been sitting out there for many months to come, and by the time AOL finally did decide to fix it, it could have reached epic proportions.
Well let's see. The situation went from a few dozen (hundred?) people being able to exploit an obscure hole to hundreds of thousands knowing how in detail.
But most boxen on which AOL is run are on narrowband connections, on the less powerful of the Windows operating systems, and turned off most of the time. Any exploitation (beyond vast compromise, which would likely be picked up by AOL staff) would be for little more than just making trouble.
Think about it: even if deployment of a bug fix hadn't been slated for another month, all w00w00 accomplished was a dramatic increase in AOL's (and AOL users') damage exposure. They did the self-righteous thing.
OK, let's do some rough math right now. Say that yesterday, J. Random Cracker found this m4d AOL exploit. He would prolly relay it to his friends to show how 1337 he was through (most likely) IRC. Assuming that he's on a fairly good-sized IRC channel, 20-50 people learn about the exploit right there. It spreads in much the same way throughout the "hacker" underground, and within hours, hundreds of thousands of l33t h4x0rz all know about the exploit and begin using it on hapless AOL users (few, if any, of whom are running any server daemons). This will go on until:
a) The magnitude of the traffic is large enough to show up on AOL's collective radar,
b) An attacker suddenly gets a pang of conscience and reports the exploit to a security firm, or
c) A computer with sufficiently robust security gets hit (either by the attackers' AOL exploits or attacks launched from the compromised computers), the admin notices, investigates, talks to AOL, gets logs, and reports the exploit to a security firm.
In any case, the collective exposure is a good deal more than what w00w00 has restricted it to (the collective malicious-user traffic to their site and the mass media for a period of one day, if AOL is to be believed). They didn't do the self-righteous thing, they did the honest thing.
You could say the same things about Internet Explorer as well?
Uhm, no, because there are already well-supported, compatible solutions available for Linux that replace most of the functionality of IE. Granted, the people who "design their pages for IE" (with piles of VBScript, preferably client-side, so that nobody but Windows users can see their Web page right), will lose hits from not having IE on *N?X, and people who frequent those pages will have to dual-boot, but do we *really* want IE, the Web browser of 1,001 security holes, installed on our *N?X boxen?
/me waits for the tide of flames to wash over him...
Don't even bother to ask how you get a Form Request Form without first filling out a Form Request Form requesting a Form Request Form...
And, don't forget, all Form Request Forms must be signed by Orange-clearance-or-up Citizens, and deposition of ink on a form below the ink's clearance first requires an Ink Request Form for the higher clearance, signed by both you and the signer...
Mmm... treason points...
How long do you think it will take them to unplug the speakers?
;)
Prolly not very long. I have those same exact speakers, and (besides their lack of a subwoofer) they don't sound very great. If you combine that with MIDI (which, I'm sorry, doesn't sound that good unless really done right) I'd give them about five minutes.
If they still have them plugged in tomorrow, they are made of stronger stuff than I.
But if you're using up the whole kilowatt of electricity, then you need another kilowatt's worth (prolly more; up here, the nights get up to about 16 hours, which would require twice that, plus it's mighty dark during some of the local storms) of solar panels just to charge up the storage battery, doubling the cost. In addition, you need to have enough empty roof or lawn space to collect the energy...
My guess is that AntiOnline and their AntiCode archives may be a good place to start, but the newsgroup comp.virus (or something like that) is prolly the best place to check.
> mIRC is the only decent IRC client on Windows there is.
Uhm, what about X-Chat for Windows? The installer is right here
It's not like we're going to make RMS starve if we copy it. He doesn't make his living selling copies does he?
Maybe, after losing the GNOME board election, he's now the high-tech equivalent of the people who hand out communism/socialism/Christianity/[insert social-issue-of-the-week here] pamphlets on street corners.