Slashdot Mirror
Last Word on Loki
A random reader sent in: "Loki's public CVS and FAQ database are now being hosted at icculus.org. The information, and a bit of evangelizing about Loki's demise can be found on icculus.org." You might take a look at the Linux Gamers' FAQ while you're there. Update: 01/25 21:05 GMT by M : Scott Draeker sends word that there will be an "official" repository of Loki code, including apparently some projects that weren't finished, hosted by SEUL in the near future.
..... can be convinced to open source/gnu the game titles as the f'd news article or mail from Loki states these titles will no longer be available.
This seems to imply they haven't found anyone to pick up and distribute those titles.
It'd be a shame never to be able to obtain them again.
... is the SDL. Made by a Loki employee (forgot which one, someone help me here) to help the porting process for DirectX, I believe. Its a nice package for any linux developers that want to make games...
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
What I have to ask is: what about the other stuff Loki did? I'd hate to see knowledge lost.
make Linux, not Microsoft. sin(beast) = -0.809016994374947424102293417182819
I've never been much of a fan of the concept of software for sale, as product. To my mind, writing software is a SERVICE, with the end result free for all to use.
So Loki was providing the service of selecting games of good quality, and porting them to Linux where I could use them with my OS of choice.
As such, I wasn't a Loki *customer* so much as I was a Loki *sponsor* or *patron*.
And accordingly, I paid for every Loki game I have. RT and M2 I bought direct from Loki. D3, SoF, and Q3 I bought from the local EB.
Myth 2 I bought yesterday, when I heard they were closing. If I had more ready cash, I would have picked up the rest of their ouvre.
Oh well. Farewell Loki, you did great work. I did what little I could to support your efforts.
Your patron,
DG
Want to learn about race cars? Read my Book
Loki going under is bad, really bad for linux, but hardly the end.
:(
No more loki_demos
No more new patches
No more loki usenet
No more new ports from them.
But we have Neverwinter coming up, RTCW, and other companies are still pushing linux on the server.
The best thing us users can do is make sure we let game companies know that we purchased their game because it has linux binaries.
So if Loki is going to shut down on 31 Jan 2002, which is six days from today, will they fully process any game orders made today?
I haven't seen any termination warnings on their site to dissuade customers from ordering products.
I figured I'd probably want two or three games over the next year, but this is making me think of buying some now before they're gone.
[
I think it's a shame to see Loki go; they were one of the few companies that were really in a position to show Linux's worth as a medium for releasing commercial software.
The only question now is what company can fill the void that they will leave behind? And I assure you, the exit of Loki from the market means that other companies will be skeptical about the viability of releasing their software for Linux. It's a shame.
Go Kathryn Thurber!
I think if Loki was just getting started today their chances of success would be much higher. That's often the way it is in technology; the true innovators (Amiga, anyone?)are lost in the rush to succeed. It would have been nice to see Mandrake hire these guys to develop for their Gaming Edition. Loki may have been the first, but they won't be the last..The best is yet to come!
Things Loki should do
Please, give it to us! The source!
I don't see why not.
Hate to kill your pride
Pirating always happens
It's a fact of life
We claim to be fans
Yet we so often steal games
Thats how it happened
But I can't help but think on how some folks helped push them over the edge in a twist on the tradgedy of the commons scenario. Everyone can have some free software only so long as no one gets greedy about taking advantadge of the good will of others, especially when the goodwill is provided by people whose side you are on. sort of. kinda. maybe.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
"Don't buy Windows games. I hear how people can't justify paying full price for an "old game" that Loki ported while they can't stop themselves from running out and buying Quake3 the second it is released at full price for Windows. Dear lord, "
... well because anything. Granted I didn't buy a MAC when Simcity first came out (I think that was the MAC first game)...
Dear Lord is what I say too. Computers are meant to be used, this isn't a religion is it? (that might be rhetorical) If I want to play the latest game I buy it, I don't wait for a port because
A computer can do no better than become an appliance for work / entertainment / education. For the vast majority it's about getting the task done, not playing around with the configuration.
I am failing to come up with words to describe how foreign this statement is to me. Why should I wait again? Like he said, its just a game, I'll buy it when I want to play it.
I don't see a life for companies who convert games to Linux and hope people will wait to buy them. Some will, but that market is extremely small.
mark
I'm really disgusted by this.
So, to all you who never put your money where your mouth is, thanks a whole fucking lot, hypocritical fuckers.
Oh well, that's how it goes. You all better show some friggin support in the future so you can redeem yourselves ;-)
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
I think the biggest problem about loki is that they were ahead of their time. In another 2 or 3 years I'm sure they would have no problem of making a go of it
I'm sure another company will be able to step in and take over where they left off, expecially since loki has already made all the tools needed.
This seems to be the trend for open source software companies, they make a product go out of business leaving their products available for the community. It's bitter-sweet, but I hope in the coming years that open source will be able to make a profit.
"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the OS of their computer but by the greatness of their games"
With java games, or maybe new technologies, Mac, Linux, Windows, Playstation, etc can all play the same games....
You didn't buy a service you bought software.. Other wise you would have just pirated it..
Thank You Drive Through
You wouldn't buy the games while they were in business, but you're just drooling over getting those games for free now that the programmers are out of work and having to find new jobs in a crap economy.
Pathetic. Do you expect everything you can't afford to be handed to you for free?
Its not fucking news anymore
Does anyone know where to find loki games online, besides their website? I'm wanting to pick up civ and maybe a few more, but they don't offer it for sale on their website...
I'm amazed at what a broad spectrum of views there are about IP issues among Linux users, but the fact that there weren't enough with their heads on straight to support even a small company like Loki is just plain sad.
I seriously hope noone over at Loki even considers open sourcing any of the binaries or making them free as in beer.
Maybe then some people will learn that Loki going down the shitter is a pretty bad thing to happen.
-- thies
Actually, it was on the topic. I am amazed at how consistently slashdot can find moderators that are on crack...
Linux users are accustomed to a gift culture, where the products of a programmer's work are given for free. Few will contribute back; most end up simply drooling over getting decent software for free. As a result, when a person or company diverges from this paradigm and tries to make a bit of money from the software they put a lot of hard work into, the results of a welfare culture rant and rave about possibly having to trade something for that product.
Linux is a result of communist practices, and the Loki case is an example of why prosperity can't develop in communist societies. Everyone wants to be equal, but when someone wants a slightly better existence, they are forced to conform by the people's inability to tolerate even a small market.
This really isn't hypocrisy, as a lot of the Linux "community" is involved for the free beer, not the free speech.
This is also why people should involve themselves in the market and purchase operating systems produced by capitalist entities such as Microsoft, Apple, and such. These companies will continue to innovate and strive to be better, because capitalism promotes competition, while communism promotes laziness and dependence. Capitalist systems grow and improve; communist systems stagnate and fade.
I don't plan to stop playing Starcraft just because it is not available for Linux.
I might send emails to Blizzard to ask for a Linux port, but there is NO way I am going to boycott Blizzard because they develop for Windows only.
Instead of simply porting games, why not develop original ones? If the games are great, people will want a Linux box to play those games, otherwise, why would they bother?
Don't get me wrong here. I use Linux and would be happy to see and buy games for this platform. I don't think boycotting Blizzard is a solution.
I think the best way of getting games on linux would be to make a kernel with all the sound and SDL etc stuff built in with a framebuffer driver for the chosen platform.
As we all know linux compiles for a whole host of platforms (including a lot of consoles).If we created a standard platform such as this then theres a good chance that people would target this platform first. The idea of having checkboxes for selecting
compile to...
[] xbox
[] PS
[] PS2
[] bootable CDROM
[] Linux PC with Linux Gaming Kernel support
We might even get to the stage where development houses put windows ports on the back burner (eventually).
NB: I realise that all these libraries and generic non-targeted code would be slower than assembler directed at your platform of choice.
Could someone who does game/kernel development let me know if I'm talking crap or would this actually work?
Whilst it is sad to see the demise of a company which was helping Linux in one of its weak areas, it has to be said that they were aiming at the wrong target.
I think Linux could do with a killer *NEW* game, with leading edge features, which would be a reason for the gamers to at least make their machines dual boot. The need for new games is obviated by the fact that games date extremely quickly and look tired after a relatively short period. Unless a game is fairly bleeding edge it is unlikely to attract a lot of custom.
Unfortunately bleeding edge games now cost real money to develop, and the first few such games to enter the Linux market are likely to lose money; how much depending on whether Linux users are finally prepared to put their money where their mouths are and actually fork out for something decent and up to date that runs on their system.
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
I posted an order yesterday and I already have
a FEDEX tracking #. Delivery tomorrow.
This is the 2nd time I've ordered from them.
I was happy the first time with the quality...
I can't find my car keys. (no a's in email)
But tehese busnesses hav 2 succeeed cauz lunix is the tihng of teh new milelleninmumumnum, and and cumpany taht makes linux things will succceed cuz Micro$oft windoze is teh bad operatig systm.
I LIKE HUMPING THE SPACE BAR
If you vote with your wallet, I don't think it makes much of a difference:
1. If the company is HUGE, one person not buying their product isn't going to hurt them. Something that would hurt would be a class-action lawsuit or something similar.
2. If the company is small, one person isn't enough when they vote with their wallets.
I think in the grander scheme of things, (Loki's demise aside, and how the big companies continue to get away with crimes), corporate lobbying must be curtailed, campaign reform laws must be enacted, and the right of the government to revoke corporate charters should be fully reinstated.
Oh and I am no hypocrite. I have bought many titles from Loki games. I fully supported their goals and vision. Sadly they are gone, but I hope a new company can take their place and do a better job at managing the funds, or at least try to change the perception of the "BIG BOYS" games companies (Blizzard comes to mind) that Linux ports are A Good Thing (tm).
-fialar
Unfortunatley it looks like linux / unix isnt enough a a gaming market yet, look at the usage numbers in you logs, Hell writing mac games is more profitable and thats sad. Its also sad there arent more linux games
:)
I bought RTCW, first game in 10 years at LEAST i bough, actually doom was the last and bfore that the Original Castle Wolfenstien, that said Im not a big gamer, but when I found out Linux binaries would be available, I plugged and bought RTCW, I am thrilled, games are a whole lot more fun than they used to be IMHO, Maybe Im just getting older an smaller things amuse me
(SEMI)PORTABLE games are the ticket, OpenGL has shown this with the ease RTCW was ported and others have run under Linux.
I looked at Loki's games, I certainly wasnt impressed enought to buy any, I demod the SOF, and found it....lame as hell, graphics sucked , and i was just early 90's blah. IMHO
I wonder how much of Loki's failure was not related to their limited market but rather their poor offerings, its a chicken and egg thing, If you come out with the most Killer game seen at first for linux only, drag a little on the windows version, you are sure to gain converts if nothing lse to play that game, BUT to come up with such an animal takes big bucks and marketing dollars, distributin channels, and you cant get the cash without a killer game, vicious circle.
Sig went tro...aahemmm.....fishing........
pretty effective comment on the viability of writing (porting) software for the open source crowd. One in-duh-vidual even wondered in an above post if loki would open source their ports. For the love of god! Seems alot of people here like to have it both ways. Better be careful, linux zealots, the market will soon decide for you.
"I am failing to come up with words to describe how foreign this statement is to me. Why should I wait again? Like he said, its just a game, I'll buy it when I want to play it."
He's referring to those gamers who ran out, bought the Windows version, and then expected Linux binaries for free since they'd already paid for the Windows version. He's also referring to those whiners who now want those ported games released for free since Loki's gone; they wouldn't support the company while it was struggling to survive, but they'll happily pick apart the corpse.
I guess it's pretty clear that Linux users don't want good games, since they're not willing to support programmers long enough to port or create them. That's too bad, since so much hard work has been put into nice desktops by the GNOME, KDE, Xfce, and other teams, all for naught since the home market will never develop without games. Talk about wasted time. Talk about spitting in the face of the programmers who busted ass to provide good software, only to be told "I want it now, I want it good, and oh, I want it for free."
Keep this up, and you won't have an alternative OS to play games on. If Linux development halts, along with development of user-friendly interfaces, don't go crying to the programmers you wouldn't support.
When loki does eventually close down, what about all binaries and stuff they made for the games ? Will they be made freely available since we wont be able to buy them any more ? or will we all have to scramble to try and find Loki games at second hand stores and places like ebay ?
I'm anispeptic, frasmotic, even compunctuous to have caused you such pericombobulation.
...we should start helping out the guys at Transgaming - they're doing great work, and for me it was worth the $5 subscription :)
His point is, if you want linux games, don't buy windows ones. He's not advocating that everyone stop buying windows games, he's just saying this is something that needs to happen if you want linux ports to be a viable alternative.
Mod me down for this or whatever (since the story was rejected), but yesterday Sunspire reported they finally found a publisher for Tux Racer. Seeing that Loki died, this seems to be the silver lining if you will. Ordering info can be found at the tuxracer website.
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
Let me prefeace this by saying that I'm an avid linux user, and an avid game player. I'm (presumably) the target market that Loki was shooting for.
Yet I didn't buy any games from them. Why?
Simply put, they didn't release anything that I wanted to play. I had Quake 3 and UT - I didn't need any other FPS games. I had played Heroes III before (yes, under Windows), and while it's a nice game, it's not something I would be willing to purchase a copy of for linux - it just didn't enthrall me that much. I was a fan of the old Descent games, but for me they lost some of their flavor after Descent 2, regardless of the eyecandy that was added.
I will admit - I was SORELY tempted to buy Rune - but after playing the demo, I wasn't totally impressed by the gameplay. Sure, melee is fun - but it got old after about an hour.
What I would have bought (and still will buy, if anyone makes them), no questions asked:
Ports of Bioware's Infinity Engine games (Baldurs Gate I/II, Icewind Dale, Planescape Torment) - these are, quite simply, incredible games. They have metric tons of gameplay, replay value, and storyline. That's why they're still fun today.
Ports of Diablo II and Starcraft - yes, I know these are from Blizzard, who will never, ever, release a linux version - but they were DAMN good games that are still loads of fun now, well after the release.
I don't feel bad about not buying their games - I refuse to buy something I don't want, even to support a company that *might* in the future produce something I would like to buy. While I support *what* they were doing, I think their choice of games to do it with was poor (albeit probably the only choice they had in this world of "Intellectual Property" lawsuits)
Yep, gimme gimme gimme. Once again, the stereotype of Linux users is proven.
Kernel hackers and programmers put buttloads of work into their products. When one company asks for a bit of money in exchange for the work put into porting good Windows games, you balk, until the company tanks, at which point you ask for a handout.
Pathetic. It's almost enough to make a guy want to run out and buy Windows XP, just to show that some people are willing to support programmers.
By speaking, by describing, by organizing reality in my thoughts, I represent my existence, teach myself to like what otherwise is. By representing reality, I strengthen my own experience of existence. The less, for example, vitality arising from physical danger there is in my life, luckily, the more important is the strengthening of the experience of existence through representation. I do not need purpose in my life, but only the ability to experience it as meaningful.
The only way to achieve some sort of feeling of autonomy in relation to nature is to understand, examine, and exaggerate nature in the world of thoughts. And maintaining this illusion of independence is essential in order to live, function and not become catatonic. Other motives I do not need...
Even from an atheist the sacred does not disappear, but can slip into the profane, mundane and dirty, like to the body, to the outrageous, to cruelty, to lust, to humor, to shopping trolleys and dishwater. Because the sacred is in the dishwater, I don't need to search for it in moon walking, in the conquering of Africa, or in Money...
--
I got an F for this essay because my PC religious English teacher was horrified. Then I got beaten up by my peers for being "such a faggot".
I'm gonna shoot them all.
SDL is wonderful, and is evidence that Loki's existance was good for Linux as well as other platforms. But also don't forget about the Loki Installer, used by Codeweavers for the Crossover plugin (as well as RTCW, among countless others), SMPEG, OpenAL, and *free* binaries to Quake3 and Unreal Tournament. Yes, there was a time when Q3 was box-only, but Loki supported Q3 well after that point.
It brings me great sadness Loki is going. But thanks to Icculus, id Software, Loki, and all the countless volunteers we now have a much better platform.
A company is a legal structure, its nothing without its employees.
The people that made this company great are going to still be around, and more than likely we're going to see some tangible benefits.
A lot times a "company" is actually a limiting factor to creativity and certainly productivity -- the market-pressures to produce X instead of Y
There is no doubt that the work done in the last couple of years by folks like Indrema and Loki have had an impact -- have they changed the gaming world? NO, but I don't know that should be a goal.
With the advent of Linux on the Playstation I believe we are going to see a next essential stage in the evolution of games
For anyone that has ever spent the time writing a game you come to a love hate relationship with device drivers
The beautiful thing about the consoles is that when I write and distribute my UberPong game, I know that I can count on the bounce to be consistent for every consumer of my tasty e-ware.
Tech support == overhead. the more overhead you have the less profit margin you have.
So the company might be dead, but the technology and the people that can drive it are still viable
Old age and treachery almost always overcome youth and skill.
You are ignoring the context of the remark. "Don't buy Windows games" is a perfectly logical and sensible answer to the question, "What can we do to help?"
The whole page is based on a premise, which you arrogantly dismissed with your "This isn't a religeon is it?" flamebait remark. Of course when you dismiss the premise, nothing on that page makes sense. Duh.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
The author of the faq says "You aren't going to get Warcraft 3 on Linux, which means that you should never BUY Warcraft 3, even though it will no doubt be a great game.
Why the hell shouldn't I enjoy a great game! Games are for having fun, relaxing after a hard day at the office, or for modern multiplayer games, for playing with and making friends. Games are not about what platform you support, I mean can anyone imagine saying I don't want to play Milton Bradly games because I can't use Hasbro miniture characters with them. No, of course not, you just play the game with the parts it came with. In a similar fashion, most people that are serious about pc gaming, and enjoy linux, tend to dual boot to windows for much of their gaming. This is the reality of the marketplace, and a large part of why Loki failed.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
I see that this CVS hosting deal was announced by incculus, not by Loki. Is this an official new hosting site for the Loki CVS, or in essence a fork? I want to hear what Loki says.
I hear how people can't justify paying full price for an "old game" that Loki ported while they can't stop themselves from running out and buying Quake3 the second it is released at full price for Windows. Dear lord, people. I know that I'm part of this insane industry, but they ARE just games. You can wait for them, and more importantly, you can do without if you really really have to.
I have never shopped at Loki so I have no idea who this guy is, but he's somewhat mad.
I could almost agree with the first part of this statement, you can wait for games, however I'd argue that in doing so you loose a large part of the experience of the game; for example new games invariably build up a community spirit around there launch time which can dwindle over time, and may be gone by the time a Linux port is released.
The final point though is what motivated me to post this.
You aren't going to get Warcraft 3 on Linux, which means that you should never BUY Warcraft 3, even though it will no doubt be a great game.
Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face! Just because Linux won't get it you shouldn't use it.. we are talking about games here! People want entertainment and frankly I'm not sure many people care on what platform that entertainment is presented.
I'm particularly interested in the emphasis on 'buy' though (implying you should get it through 'other' means), just after he talks about avoiding piracy.
Ah well.
MrChris
Don't buy Windows games. I hear how people can't justify paying full price for an "old game" that Loki ported while they can't stop themselves from running out and buying Quake3 the second it is released at full price for Windows. Dear lord, people. I know that I'm part of this insane industry, but they ARE just games. You can wait for them, and more importantly, you can do without if you really really have to. You need to tell the companies writing the software that you want that you don't want it unless it runs on Linux. The ultimate way to voice your opinion is to vote with your wallet. The sad truth is that this means sacrifice. You aren't going to get Warcraft 3 on Linux, which means that you should never BUY Warcraft 3, even though it will no doubt be a great game.
Hey look everyone it's Loki's business strategy:
1. Bust tail porting games from Windows to Linux.
2. Hope that everyone will stop buying Windows games and wait patiently for our lack-patch, feature-deprived, foreign-interface ports which by the time they come out cost more than the by-this-time discounted/cracked originals.
3. Profit!
And they can all be crappy, lowest common denominator games.
Lowest common denominator != crappy.
game can't use more than 24 megs of memory (gamecube)
No, 40 MiB (24 CPU + 16 PPU). PlayStation 2 has 36 MiB (32 CPU + 4 PPU). Xbox has 64 MB (shared), but its stripped-down Windows 2000 OS might diminish the advantage its extra RAM gives.
Consider that some fun games have been made on only 4 KiB of RAM and 40 KiB of ROM (Super Mario Bros. 1 for NES) and that T*tr*s has been done twice on the Atari 2600, which had only 128 bytes of RAM and half a scanline's worth of VRAM.
game can't have high poly counts (PC with budget video card)
Street Fighter style games use only about ten quads on the screen, one for each player, one for each player's fireball, one for each player's status bar, and a few for the backgrounds, but that's about it.
game can't have complex interface (consoles)
"Complex" meaning what? What do you need for a first-person shooter? Two joysticks (one for move and one for turn), a couple triggers (fire and jump), and a couple other buttons (switch weapons, etc)? Want a sim/rts interface? SimCity for Super NES and C&C for PSX showed that sim/rts games can work on consoles. Or are you trying to make glorified chat rooms such as EverQuest?
I'm sorry, but web games will never match a true game.
If by "web games" you refer to games written in the Java programming language, I hereby direct your attention to BoycottAdvance Online. It emulates real games for a real system, namely Game Boy Advance.
Platform independant (real) games are a pipe dream.
No, you have that backwards. Pipe Dream is a platform-independent game :-)
Will I retire or break 10K?
If you are making this remark then you obvisually aren't one of the people who wished there were more games for Linux. The whole point is if you want Linux games then don't get the Windows version instead, otherwise the end effect will be that games companies rightly asking 'Linux users buy Windows games, so why bother developping for Linux?'
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
For one, transgaming. Full porting takes too long, while you port, the market buys up the windows version. By 6 months, the market was saturated. With transgaming, they have a chance to get to the market before it *completely* dries up.
Another, Linux-based dedicated game Distros. You pop in the CD and boot, start the game, no install required. Make the PC into kinda a game console. The wide variety of PC hardware makes this not work that well however...
Finally, a really good game maker with exclusive Linux releases. A manufacturer willing to essentially shoot themselves in the foot in the name of Linux popularity. Not happening, but wouldn't it be neat to see, say, Squaresoft Linux exclusive titles?
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
Set you cvs client to Read-Icculus
Am I the only one who got the old Phish reference?
;oP
Arrogance is Confidence which lacks integrity. -- me
The guy mentions:
"There are still commercial companies and indie game shops supporting Linux that need your support. A brief, incomplete list is BlackHoleSun, IllWinter, Linux Game Publishing, iD, Epic, BioWare, Philos Laboratories, Mountain King Studios, Introversion, and PomPom."
I went to the BioWare site but couldn't find any Linux games. Anyone know what he's on about?
"With the advent of Linux on the Playstation I believe we are going to see a next essential stage in the evolution of games."
What makes you say this?
Do you believe developers are going to saddle their games with linux as middleware? In heaven's name, why? Many are already complaining the unit lacks the power for the next breed of games.
What do they gain by not writing directly for the platform?
Perhaps it's easier to point out what they lose. They lose processor cycles - boatloads of them.
Will OpenAL be continued ?
...feel like a slouch:
Realize that every dime you take from Microsoft through piracy is NOTHING in comparison to the hurt that you put on Loki when you burned an ISO.
All I had to do was go out and blow the little bit (since I had gotten the Win* version as a Christmas gift) and buy Q3A for cheap. Did I? No. A friend had done that for me, I coppied his. Now, yes I understand 100% that one extra sale wouldn't have done anything to help Loki (not much anyway...), but how many others were in the same situation.
Hmmm... on one hand I could've ran down to the local Software place and grabed it for cheap (the software store I usually visit DOES have a Linux section), or I could've asked my friend if I could copy his CD and use *MY* valid CD-Key on it.
I "gave" money to id (it was a gift but still...), not to Loki. Loki suffered, not id.
damn. this blows...
I'm not a prophet or a stone-age man,
I'm just a mortal with potential of a super man.
So Long, and Thanks for all the Games?
"Lots of Linux users want everything for free, and lots of Linux users are filthy pirates when they can't just get software for free."
I'll be the first to admit that i have *aquired* EVERY windows game and program i own, BUT i have PAID for every linux OS and APP at least once.
Ave Molech Setting
How about doom?
How about all those Spectrum and Amiga games? Why did anyone ever play them, with their limited user interfaces, low polygon counts (often zero!), blocky textures (remember colour clash?) and 48k of memory?
Most games are more plagiarism than revolution. Getting gameplay that is both great and new is hard.
Planning to port does mean that you avoid trying to do certain things, but you stick the platform-dependant code in small abstraction modules and save a lot of pain. Look at the Quake source sometime, it does this very well.
And with the same art too...
Did you miss the part about not buying windows games?
Windows games DO NOT SUPPORT Linux.
Paying five dollars a month to extend the directx gaming monopoly to our platform is most certainly not supporting Linux.
But anyone who doesn't understand that the gaming business is 80 percent marketing and 20 percent gaming will have problems.
Say what you will about The Sims under WINEX (Transgaming, which you can buy with a bundle from Mandrake - Linux plus a game!) - but the reality is that they understand WHAT the market WANTS.
Sure, we ideally want native Linux games.
But we're all gamers - if it comes out on Windows first, we'll buy it.
If we had releases with special add-ons for Linux, that would have been a killer app. But instead we got a port.
If we have Geek Party for The Sims coming out on Linux first, then released for Windows 60 days later, that would be a killer app. Since it's already coded for Windows, it would be a great marketing ploy.
Buzz will save you. But you still need a good game with balanced play and scalable levels so you don't get bored.
-
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
Every gaming company Windows/Mac/consoles is either huge or small. And yet there are examples of both company sizes which are still profitable.
Loki failed, not because of their size, but because of people didn't buy their games.
They had great games. Well, these games were successful for their windows version. Yet for Linux, it didn't sell.
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
Whaddya mean piracy helped kill Loki? I tried my frickin' HARDEST to get pirated copies of some of these games, to absolutely no avail. Not ONCE did I ever see a pirated Loki game on any pirate site I was ever on. Look at Quake 3, or UT...those games have been pirated to death on the Windows platform yet their respective companies are still in business.
Yes, I ended up buying the games that I wanted to play.
Next arguement.
As important and life altering as Loki is in public message forums there's still hardly anything in my life which they had a meaningful impact in. I never used their multimedia libraries. I never played their games. If the Loki brand was responsible for adding some feature to some library somewhere it was probably nothing that couldn't have been done under another brand name.
Even if I played their games it would have been the porting, the final step in the game's creation which they did. Even if I used their libraries the functionality in those libraries would have only been shrinkwrapping for functions that other groups already implemented, whether it was the frame buffer device, the console, GLX, or OSS. There was nothing in their libraries that made them necessary if you wanted to access the functionality at all.
The business model of the 90's was shrink wrapping and Loki did exactly what they were supposed to do to get popular in the 90's. Shrink wrapping and porting isn't enough to sustain a business nowadays but creating enough new functionality to sustain a business is impossible for most people.
...that people are complaining about being told not to buy the games they want to play. I swore that I'd never use this phrase, but in this case it's the only one appropriate.
Read for content, people.
We are talking about people who's primary complaint is there are no games for Linux and they want to change that. Those of you who want to play the latest and greatest games SHOULD NOT CARE about the platform you're playing it on. The people who will need to make the sacrifices spoken of are the people that want to promote a particular platform. In this case Linux. If someone wants more games for Linux, buying them for another platform is counterproductive. These people need to excercise their power and not buy games that aren't for Linux.
This is _exactly_ the situation that the Mac platform was in 10 years ago. The way people got games made for the Mac was buy not buying DOS/Windows games, and at the same time flooding game companies with requests for Mac ports. And when good games were released for the Mac, even if they were "old" they BOUGHT THEM because they were GOOD GAMES. You couldn't find the ported over Mac games on the store shelves because the only copies that they had were sold out! I can go to my local half price books and find stacks of Loki's ports of any of their games (except the latest ones...I guess game stores stopped putting them on their shelves because NO ONE WAS BUYING THEM, DUH) for less than half price, because all the local game stores threw them in with all the rest of the never-to-be-sold crap that was cluttering their shelves. Say what you want about Blizzard, but they were one of the first producers of major games to take a chance on the Mac market, and it obviously has paid off big time for them. I bought Warcraft 1 the second it came out fo the Mac, because it was a good game for the Mac, and I wanted to support people who took serious financial risks to produce good games for a platform I wanted to promote. I didn't care if it was old, it was better than anything else I could play on my Mac at the time, and playing games on my Mac was what I wanted. Obviously, more than just I were doing the same thing, because Blizzard has so far released every one of it's games for the Mac. Diablo 2 for the Mac, IIRC, came out only a week after the Windows version was released. The Lord of Destruction expansion was released on a hybrid CD from the beginning. The Diablo 2 Battle Chest is all hybrid Windows/Mac CDs. Warcraft 3 will be released for the Mac. Why? Because Mac enthusiasts stuck to their guns, made painful sacrifices, and when someone took a chance they rewarded those people for taking that chance. If the Linux community is unwilling to do the same, the next Loki will find the same fate waiting for it.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
(For those who don't know, Icculus is from Phish's "The Man Who Stepped Into Yesterday", Trey's senior project. Icculus wrote the Helping Phriendly Book. When you read Icculus, it's...read-icculus...rid-iculous...get it? ridiculous? Geez, do I gotta spell out everything?)
I have a question which I haven't seen answered anywhere. What about all of the game patches? Is someone going to host those? I don't care whether I have to use the loki installer or just download them, but I don't know of any place to get them save loki...
It seems that another solution might be a PSX (or other console) emulator. Bleem did it, and Playstation (or other console) games would be an acceptable alternative (for me, at least) to dual booting just for games (incidentally, the only games I've really played were either ancient ones like Zork or Ms. Pac-Man or weird ones like Roller Coaster Tycoon). It also might be an interesting lure if Linux could play some of the newer, next-gen consoles (PS2, XBOX, heck I'd settle for DC).
Ah, well. I suppose we now look to Transgaming and Mandrake...
Quid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
Anything said in Latin, sounds profound.
Talk about a rabid dog, gungho linux flag waver... jeesus.
Sorry your company went under bud, but "You aren't going to get Warcraft 3 on Linux, which means that you should never BUY Warcraft 3, even though it will no doubt be a great game." is the single most retarded general statement I have yet heard from a linux community member.
Get a grip. Do you really mean that if a game comes out that isn't ever going to be available on *nix that you should not buy it? Seriously? You are mad. I could almost swallow (if not believe) a comment like "if it's supposed to be ported, just wait for the port in order to support *nix", but not that... and even then, why wait.
If Linux is ever going to enter the home computer market as a real competitor, it has to address some very basic items:
1) Ease of use - *nix on the home computer should be as easy, if not easier to use than a MS or Mac product. It simply isn't even close for the "average" home user (remember, no one says you have to be a computer genius to own a computer... it should just work, something software and hardware engineers keep missing and only MS really seems to address to a minor degree)
2) Drivers - *nix needs drivers for the most popular home devices and add-ins. They are generally not available. Strike two, and until the *nix community gets it's crap together and settles on one or two home distros and guis, as well as stops acting like petulant whiney children towards hardware manufacturers by demanding so much for the little gain that is *nix right now (market share I mean), it isn't going to happen either.
3) Software and Compatabilty - until *nix can natively, and on the fly with little penalty, run MS code base (including DX), it is screwed. People want games and apps that MS makes (cept for the here and there Mac user, but they have nearly the same problem). Taking two years to port a game to *nix is just lame and one of the reasons *nix doesn't have a chance. Game companies must be cajolled and courted to make direct ports during the dev process, tools must be available and standardized that help the porting process, and *nix geeks/gamers must not ridicule game companies making hit titles for not making linux game ports.
Get real Icculus, you moron.
That there are people willing to do the ports practically for free, and still let the owner companies pocket all the revenue from the games, if only they'd be allowed to port it. And yet game companies are so worried about letting valuable secrets slip out that they won't let ANYONE see the code, NDA or otherwise. The silly notion is that even if someone picks up on a great idea, by the time that idea can be implemented into some other game, it'll be a good year later at least, and by then there will be new technologies and new hardware and the old stuff won't matter as much anymore. ID knows this, which is why they GPL the code for older games.
Perhaps the linux community isn't a huge source of revenue. WHO CARES? If the porting can be done for you for free, then its all gravy. Same with device drivers. Nobody sells device drivers, they sell the hardware the devices interface with. And if they can pick up a new market without any investment of time or money and not even have to support it, how can that be anything but a benefit.
And yet they hold on like there's some dangerous secret that might leak out and put them out of business. I must be missing something obvious here.
-Restil
Play with my webcams and lights here
Another thing to keep in mind is that most mac users could not dual boot to play the new PC/Win game that they just purchased the week it came out. If I had a Mac -- I had to wait until the Mac version came out if I wanted to play. (Much different that dual booting on the same machine.) I think Loki would have survived if 3 things were in place:
A...If dual booters were really hardcore linux fans -- and refused to dual boot (even for games) -- Sales go up 50% for Loki -- because people would not have already purchased the "windows version".
B...If Loki were able to offer Linux games closer to the time they were released for the other platforms....(nothing like getting a "new" Linux game 12 months after the windows version had hit the cut out boxes for $9.99. -- Sales go up 25%.
C...If they had been able to port the games that people wanted to buy...The Starcrafts, Warcrafts, C&C, Red Alert, Diablo...Sales go up 75%
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
Sam Lantiga (I hope I got the spelling right) is the original author.
You can find the SDL website at http://libsdl.org
First off you get access to a set of tools that doesn't cost you huge licensing fee's in terms of upfront tool costs and ongoing royalties -- which means that its more accessible to a lot more people
Second off you still get the ability to have your games run on other linux distro's with relative ease
Old age and treachery almost always overcome youth and skill.
You know, if they had ported those games, people would be complaining because Loki hadn't ported SimCity or Kohan or Civilization or Alpha Centauri or Tribes.
Sheesh. They weren't big enough to port everything, you know!
Another thing to keep in mind is that most mac users could not dual boot to play the new PC/Win game that they just purchased the week it came out. If I had a Mac -- I had to wait until the Mac version came out if I wanted to play. (Much different that dual booting on the same machine.) I think Loki would have survived if 3 things were in place:
My point is that in order to promote any system, any support you give to a direct competitor works against you. I could easily have not bought a new Mac and instead gone over to DOS/Windows. People were upgrading their computers at least as fast as they do now. Gamers often upgrade their machines to be able to use the latest and greatest. It certainly was a hell of alot cheaper to go with DOS and get games than stick with the much more expensive Mac hardware. The point is we wanted to promote the Mac, therefore we avoided Windows games, and made a necessary sacrifice to do that. Linux users will have to make simmilar sacrifices to accomplish the same thing.
A...If dual booters were really hardcore linux fans -- and refused to dual boot (even for games) -- Sales go up 50% for Loki -- because people would not have already purchased the "windows version".
Which is what I was saying. If Linux "zealots" didn't do their house of cards impression when they see all the glittery stuff they can play with on Windows, Loki would have done alot better. Read my post, please.
B...If Loki were able to offer Linux games closer to the time they were released for the other platforms....(nothing like getting a "new" Linux game 12 months after the windows version had hit the cut out boxes for $9.99. -- Sales go up 25%.
Until the Linux user makes the sacrifice, and takes the time and effort to lobby the game companies to allow ports to Linux sooner, the companies aren't gonna care. And why should they? The Linux user obviously doesn't care.
C...If they had been able to port the games that people wanted to buy...The Starcrafts, Warcrafts, C&C, Red Alert, Diablo...Sales go up 75%
Herein lie the sacrifices you must be willing to make if you want change. Create a Loki-type company that works with companies before a game gets released so that there can be simultaneous development. Sometimes, however, you w9ill run into several companies who will refuse to let a Loki port their game. In these cases, if Linux gaming is your concern, you must be willing to bite the bullet and not buy the Windows version (and not buy Windows, but that's a part of the argument we don't need to go into right now). If you don't, you obviously don't care that much. All these companies need to say is that they're not going to release it, and you just whine about it.
Loki is my favorite. They make good games. I think that everyone should use Loki games.
You can chalk that up to many things, people wanting to develop new games, the gaming industry itself and the speed and stress of it, people trying to use loki as a springboard to other positions or problems within loki or loki's management. Whatever, I don't want to sling any mud or anything like that but you've got problems in this industry if you can't keep people for more than 18 months, especially in the Linux and gaming subsets where good quality talent isn't just growing on trees in the park, I know, I've tried to hire good linux-savvy developers and it's bloody easy to find someone who can install redhat or debian but it's a bitch finding people who know the tools well and churn out the code compared to something like java or mfc coders. I'm thinking ramp up time.. If you take any time to gear up, say 2 weeks (which is light speed compared to some people who take like 2 months) and then at some point you become somewhat disgruntled and decide to quit all within 18months you're probably trimming 3-6 months or so off of the peak usefulness of the employee.
I'm reluctant to post a theory but from some of the things and stories I heard and then a couple of the resumes I've seen, I think Loki might have tended more towards the sweatshop model of software house. Not that that's really bad, it's a tough business and ust starting out and everything you have to work hard but you couple that with some financial problems, a market slow down, maybe shoddy raises or something and things don't last forever, even if you have ideological employees who are in it for the love.
The game ports they were doing were already old for a market where most users have dual-boot systems - if they wanted the game they would have bought it already for windoze.
The otehr problem is that their games weren't as readily available as Windows games - if I go into a branch of Game, EB or any other retailer I can't get linux games. I'm doing pretty good if I even see a 6 month old copy of redhat.
When the next big linux games company starts churning them out they need to make sure thaty they
Although I have bought several games since taking up linux, I have been steadily migrating all my s/w usage over to the OS. The only things left which I don't use on linux are my scanner (which I plan to replace) and games.
I would urge users out there to do the same as I have, which is don't grow your windows partition - leave it. mine's now so full I can't install any games on it and the next big one will be for linux for sure.
Ok, you stupid dreamers. Take a look at this.
Loki was a company making games for Linux. And only for Linux. They ported games made by other companies and paid a (presumably big) royalty.
After Loki's crash, how many companies do you think are going to bet on Linux? If the first game they port doesn't work, you can be sure there won't be a second or third try. Maybe before Loki falling down these companies would had given a second chance to Linux, but now, there won't be.
It's simple: if anyone really likes your game, he/she will have a dual boot system and will boot Windows to play this game. How many people won't buy the game simply not to boot Windows? A very, very little. The vast majority of people prefers to play (under Windows) a game they like rather than not to play that game.
We remain tied to the hope that if a company (say BioWare) releases a Linux game they need to sell less copies than Loki needed, as they haven't to pay royalties and (I suppose they) are developing their games in a cross-platform way (so the cost of Linux development decreases).
The only Loki game I ever got was Civ:CTP, and it's no coincidence that this is also the only one where there was good information ahead of time that a port was coming, so I *knew* there was a reason to wait. Plus they used channels that got the game physically present on store shelves instead of trying to rely on on-line sales.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
I agree with what you said and I did read your article. I just think it is a little easier of a temptation for someone to dual boot and maintain 2 software solutions -- rather than having to purchase a whole new computer (or have 2 computers).
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
I find it very interesting that you feel that using Linux means doing without gaming nor coding. Let me guess: You live in the United States (more details on why I have this theory below).
Linux has had a large number of games ported to it; I believe Loki ported 20 or so before going under. I find that this is enough games for me to waste far too much time playing; my open source coding project would not be in its current state if I spent any more time playing games on Linux; and I only have two games which I regularily play on my Linux laptop. I have not had time to finish either game.
As for coding, I find the coding environments of Linux extremely usable and powerful. For example, the Perl interpreter allowed me to create, within one day, a new unified documentation format for all of my program's documentation when people who translate my documentation requested this.
When someone says "Linux does not have a usable coding environment" what that person is saying, in effect, is "I am not willing to take the time and effort to learn the excellent coding environments the Linux has". Which I find very strange.
Programming, after all, is not like playing a video game. Programming is a discipline which takes time and effort to learn. The effort to learn, say, the Emacs environment or the most common Vi commands, is trivial compared to the effort required to learn how to write a usable and maintainable computer program.
My general experience is that Europians are generally more willing to take the time and effort to learn the language of Linux; most of the people who are helping me out with my open-source project are from Europe. I think this is because most Europians have had to learn one or more foreign languages; learning a foreign language makes one intently aware of the time and effort needed to accomplish something truly worth accomplishing.
Programming code is not like watching "Allie McBeal" on TV; my general experience is that people who need automated tools to generate code write code that is inefficient, difficult to read, and unmaintainable.
Linux is not a charity case
The free software foundation is, in fact, a charity.
- Sam
The secret to enjoying Slashdot is to realize that it should not be taken too seriously.
Doing speculative software development, where you produce a program upfront then sells copies makes up about 5% of software development (money wise). This model works best if you consider software a product, which you shrink wrap and ship. It also encourages consolidation of all software companies into one, which uses its size and distribution channel to force the others out of business.
Sharing of software hurts software manufactures potential profits. They are incompatible with Free software.
The rest is done on a service contract basis, where you pay for it up front or as you go. This works best when the software is considered a service. It can be done by employee's, or by contractors. It encourages multitudes of small companies and indviduals, who offer lower rates, as well as larger companies who offer name-recognition.
Sharing of software help software service providers. They work best with Free software, where it's available.
Which of these two business models has a brighter future? Exercise for the reader...
So I'm just curious...do you use assume all idiots (like the poster) to be Americans?
This seems to be a very popular among the English, who badmouth Americans for being violent while their own fine English football fans murder people in stadiums. Then they talk about how Americans are crude and stupid while they let their elderly citizens die forgotten on a hospital trolly waiting 60 hours for treatment of a stroke.
There are 260 million Americans, give-or-take. Perhaps you should not paint us all with the same brush.
Stupid Americans started the Open Source movment, wrote Unix, and provided most of those neat tools that Linux was later based on. Not to mention the bloody internet you are using now.
No mod points availible I'm afraid... but well said.
Uh, I think the poster you're replying to is American as well.
From the tone, he's definitely NOT an European
PS the British have a lot of problems learning another language (through embarrasment at our accent, I think)...
Well that is the difference; DirectX was made for corporate development mainly, not personal development. If you ever worked on a high quality game, the benefits of directX would very soon be apparent.
However, SDL does have a great niche. While it is not as useful for professional development (yet), it is great for games made by individuals, and it is a great learning platform. Whild SDL is not as good for DirectX for professional development, it is trying to catch up with DirectX, as games like TuxRacer, etc. are developed. This is the direction that SDL must move in.
In order to succeed, SDL must not be forced to be installed by the user; this is what seperates many great games from the mainstream
Okay. I'm sick of seeing this crap about how Linux users aren't supporting Linux gaming if they bought the windows version. I for one have TWO copies of: ALpha Centauri Planetary Pack, RRT2, Quake 3. Both the linux and windows version. And yet, Loki still died? Folks, we aren't a big enough market. Look at it this way:
Company A writes Windows games.
Company B writes Linux games.
Company A releases hot new game(tm) for Windows and says, "We won't be making a linux version."
So now Consumers who like Linux are supposed to just deny Company A the money? What good does denying Company A the money do for Company B? "Well, Magnwa, it might make them want to sell the rights to the game to Company B!" Yes, and it might make them convinced there's no market out there at all for Linux games because NOBODY'S BUYING THE BAD GAMES COMPANY B IS SELLING!. Look, you want to prove you like Linux games, buy a game (windows or linux), return the card, and indicate that YOU LIKE LINUX. Bingo! You just gave that company a valid sale and a number included. You just proved to company A that Linux users buy games. Boycotting windows games does while buying games you dislike that run on Linux will NOT get the "cool" games to linux. It simply will have the Company A's of the world talking about how much Linux users like crap games.
The numbers weren't there. Stop making up excuses and just accept the fact that the market doesn't freaking exist for linux games. It just DOESN'T. Maybe in years it will, but now it doesn't. Deal.
Magnwa
Ya damn skippy DirectX is a dirty hack and look at it. Its slowly resembling OpenGL. Wow! Can you believe it? SDL is wonderful. Makes programming for X a little simpler. Once they get a few more things in Blender working we'll have a complete game development eviornment.
peace
what happens to SDL? i was really hoping it take off
As for the elderly citizens being left forgotten, you should see the furore at the moment where one woman's case has been hijacked as a political pawn by the main parties. Bloody politicians...
I'm american, but, what the hell, I agree, americans, we, are stupid!
From the cab driver that told me, "if God had wanted us to fly, he would have given us wings" when talking about the space program, to the fact that most people don't know that the moon is closer to us than the stars...
Just look at the whole evolution debate!! Many of my fellow countrymen would have folks believe that this is an even debate - get two guys on a talk show, one going on about "creation", the other about evoluton, and most of my comrades think that this is actually an EVEN debate, that half of all scientists and learned people actually dis-believe evolution!! It makes me ashamed to live here! That fiasco in Kansas was pathetic!!
Violence?? Yeah, don't get me started. Nothing pisses me off more than a movie getting an R rating for showing 10 seconds of nipple, while a flick where people get body parts shot off can keep an pg-13 rating!
Yes, I like this country, which is one reason why I post like this - wake up people!!
We are the biggest collection of stupid, overweight rich people in the world!
I think it would make sense for console manufacturers to have all games Linux compatible. Why? Because it's the only way they can leverage their profits without losing the gains to Microsoft (that will crush the otherwise).
Fede
unfinished: (adj.)