I almost accept the fact that they are horses of two different colours (PnPs and MMO). It kills me that MMOs still attached RPG to their genre and in doing that, makes their genre a RPG.
We could argue round and round on what makes a true RPG. But I think it is what we expect out of an RPG is what defines the term "Roleplaying Game"
For some, like myself, want movement of story, development of plot and the ability to create incredible character development while not depending on magic, items or gods to do it. Some want more drama while others want hack-n-slash.
I obviously put more weight in the term RP then most people and I accept that. But to counter your point about 20 to 30 people all together, PnP cannot function with that many people (8 at most with an assistant GM at best). I prefer 3 to 6 players in a group that are in front of each other (face-to-face), who are accountable to each other (see John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory) and where their actions may result in dire consequences. In MMORPGs, you have none of that. You don't have the closeness of personal interaction, the ability to act like an asshat (see John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory) and where our actions don't amount to shit.
Take for instance, World of Warcraft. As a Dwarf, I should be able to denounce my loyalities to the Alliance, trek all the way to Orgrimmar and announce my full allegiance to the Horde and to Thrall, the Warlord of the Orcs. If they do not accept me, they should be able to kill me on the spot and I should perish. Perhaps, my story would make it back to Stormwind and Ironforge. Perhaps not. But because the story is static in WoW, there is no way I can accomplish this. I cannot play an Alliance who through the asshatness of Alliance characters, decides that my character would rather die than to serve the Alliance. If I create a Dwarf, Human, Night Elf or Gnome, I have no choice but to serve the Alliance.
What is crazy is that the Humans and Orcs helped each other (Warcraft III) so I fully expected this to be possible in WoW. Not so much.
But in WoW PnPRPG (yes it is d20 but what can you do), I can do this very easily because it promotes good storytelling and advance plot development. In the current WoW PnP session that I am in, I play a Gnome Rogue who hangs out with a Orc warrior who goes out and tries to earn a living (not an honest living but an living nonetheless).
It doesn't make sense for Roleplaying to be handicapped by developers.
Obviously, pencil-n-paper RPGs are so incredibly superior to MMORPGs, that doesn't need to be discussed. But the author should compare apples to apples (fantasy PnPRPGs to fantasy MMORPGs, etc.) and not crime/dramatic/near-goth jerkfest to MMORPGs.
It still is a shocker to me that there are tons of people who are currently playing MMORPGs who have never played PnPRPG. That is not so much an issue with games like WoW or EQ2 but it is a huge problem with games like NWN. The number one is PnPer knows why certain things work in a certain way and when those items are put into a video game broken, a PnPer will work to correct those issues (e.g. True Sight broke as hell in NWN).
Future MMOs like DDO nor Vanguard do not bridge the gap between MMOs and PnP. They just rehash what has gone in the past with a sprinkle of something different. After I read Vanguard's FAQ, I am not sure if MMORPGs want to get closer to the pinnacle of RPG that is PnP. Somehow, they have created their own genre where the expectations are set lower and the delivery is set right above that line.
I do hate to use fantasy as a generic subgenre of RPGs. You give me SWG and I give you Star Wars d6 system. You give me (insert non-existent Pirates/Explorer/Swashbuckling adventures) and I give you AEG's non-D20 7th Sea. You give me (insert any lame space opera) and I give you Fading Suns. Heck, MMORPGs do not even have an answer for PnPRPG's A Game of Thrones as far as death being a very real thing.
I stopped playing them. The time I was wasting playing MMORPGs translated into: 1) Spending more time with my son 2) Going out, meeting people and hitting on chicks 3) Working out and getting healthy
Crazy what you can do when you actually do something productive.
... why an MMORPG claims to have Roleplaying in it but the world and story appears to be static forever and ever and where the players cannot change the world around them?
I would love an explanation on that. That would be sweet.
I used to play WoW but I couldn't figure out what AQ was. I wish someone told me it was the bugs in Sithilus(sp) so I would care a lot less especially when there are rumours about a joint Alliance/Horde 100-man raid on Arthas.
I have noticed the comments on sex lives and "thank god, I don't play this game". Back in November (coincidently the 1 year anniversary of WoW's gold release), I ended up having 1.5 hours of free time per night. Do I spend it playing a RP game that never changes and never updates OR do I go and workout and do something for my health.
Play a video game or workout.
When you look at those options, do you really have a choice? Am I alone in this or am I the only geek who has seen the light?
... from Asian and Anglo parents, all I got to say is "HA!".
It is so great to hear other people talk about race relations and the tension in their voice/posting. You know, it really REALLY doesn't have to be this hard.
As a manager for many years, the amount of non-Anglos that would applied for open or closed positions were close to the same ratio in the city population. I would be concerned if I didn't get any Hispanic, Asian, Indian or Black applicants.
I would also be freakin' pissed if I found out my recruiters were racially screening my applicants.
Race relations asides, I know that my boss and my coworkers think I am godsend and love the work and expertise I bring to the table.
Plan a trip using Mass Transit going from Fort Worth to Dallas and back.
I can plan a trip in Fort Worth and one in Dallas. I would like to see how it handles going back and forth using up to 3 mass transit systems (The T, Trinity Express, DART).
We have got to be the biggest metroplex with the suckiest mass transit system.
I have gone 9 years of dressing casually at work. I dress like a complete bum when I get home (sleeveless shirts, knit shorts and flip flops, anyone). I am also 6'5 at 275lbs so buying clothes is real fun.
I get to a new job and the dress code is no different. I am the only SysAdmin but I work with other coders. My boss dresses snazzy most of the time but his boss dresses in cotton button-down shirts, jeans and cowboy boots.
For the first time in 9 years, I LOVE coming to work. You know what? I am thinking about not dressing casually but instead in slacks, button up shirt and nice shoes. I am feeling good so why the hell not.
Sure I occasionally build and rack a server and might have to do some minor wiring but those are few and far between. I am so grateful and excited to be here, I might just upgrade my wardrobe while I am at it.
I have a kid but on Saturdays after he goes to sleep, I go and play RPGs.
I have tried to fill the void with MMORPGs but those fall incredibly short of all the things that you can do in PnPRPG.
I have yet to see any MMORPG where you could possibly change the world around you or die trying. I don't understand why we don't have more MMORPG worlds with permenant deaths AND no senseless killing in order to level.
Those are by far not the hottest thing coming out. The only thing I want for Christmas is A Game of Thrones RPG. (Yes, I am going to drop $100 bucks for the Deluxe Edition.)
The only suckness is that it is based on D20 OGL (it would have been so much better if it ran on AEG's 7th Sea engine but I can live through it). But any suckness is overcome by the greatness that is George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire world.
I guess I don't mind D20 but I do mind the crappy magic items (my +10 beats your Epic Damage Reduction... wtf). Give me AGoT with very little magic whatsoever and replace it with character development, drama and politics any day of the week.
... they have changed the MMORPGs are made and played. I am one of thos players with a real life and want casual end game content (drop at a moment's notice, 1 hour or less to complete the first time you run through it, etc.).
IMHO, Blizzard as forced all the other MMORPGs to do things differently such as leveling and questing. In the post-WoW MMORPG world, you cannot dare to release a MMORPG that is a damn time sink and think that you are going to be successful.
I know I will be quitting pretty soon. It was a kick ass experience and I cannot wait for the next big ORPG.
I second your post. When it comes to server apps, *nix-based apps are golden and great for admins like me. But you will never catch me on a *nix workstation for the exact reason you have listed.
The thing about it is that while the people who write Open Source workstation apps are good programmers, there are not great in the sense that it feels like they put no thought towards intuitiveness and good interaction with the interface. Sure the app is totally stable but if the interface is bunk, why would I use it. That goes to apps such as OpenOffice and GIMP.
Good application interface does not come from the end-user remembering where everything is at and becomes a master at it, it comes from an brand new end user able to navigate easily to the task they need to perform by just looking at the menus and buttoms that are available to them at the start of the program.
As much as the Open Source Community wants to piss all over Mac and Windows, you have to learn what Mac and Windows does great and build off of that. I swear it feels like Open Source programmers are going out of their way to create programs that feel (feel not work) nothing like a Mac or Windows app.
Blizz: When are you going to move the story along? Are you planning to shake things up with realigning alliances within both factions?
For example, at the end of Warcraft III: FT, Jaina Proudmoore and Thrall team up against Jaina's father to take him down and reigned in a new era of peace. I played WoW based on the excellent epic story of Warcraft and I thought it would be a no-brainer that both factions could learn the other faction's language and even earn reputation. For those on RP servers, I thought for sure that we would be able to rewrite the story thus fall and try to reestablish that era of peace.
Well, I was wrong.
Since the launch of WoW, the story is dead. What do you plan on doing to push it closer to Warcraft 4 / WoW 2?
My three year old son gets around in in Windows quite well with left and right clicking. (No, X Windows sucks so don't suggest it). He knows how to open programs he wants (such as browsers), open whatever he wants within (such as bookmarks, etc.) and navigates well within most well-designed kiddie sites. He has been honing his leet skillz since playing City of Heroes with me a year ago.
Not saying that a laptop should be purchased for a 3 year old but I think kids should undoubtedly have their own computer. By the time they are in middle school and they have shown a good amount of responsibility (good passwords, constant backups, on top of security/antivirus updates, etc.), I say why not a laptop for school.
By the time my son hits 6th grade, this debate will be moot.
Re:I liked Firefox the first time...
on
IE7 Bugs and Reviews
·
· Score: 0, Redundant
I love SciFi. I love comics books. That noted, I hate everything else Whedon has done. His two other shows are spikes through the head at best and his comic writing is meh at best.
That said, Firefly freakin' rocks. Stop basing opinions off of what you saw on Fox. Fox kept jacking the order of the shows, content of the shows and towards the end, didn't even show it in place of sports. Even if you did see it in the first run, you really didn't see it at all.
Fox has jacked up other shows in the past, this is true. But either plenty of people have lost their jobs or they learned a stern lesson when they are going to bring back Arrested Development and brought back Family Guy.
Firefly was one of the balls they dropped. Unfortunately, since they have sold the rights to Universal, they cannot bring back Firefly. Thus, we have Serenity and reruns on SciFi.
Life is good again.
Pwned the DVDs. If you still don't believe us, check the reviews. If 1409 reviews with an average of 5/5 stars is still not good enough for you, rent the DVDs.
I, for one, envy newcomers. They can see "Objects in Space" and think, "oh cool and Serenity will be here soon." Imagine getting the DVDs way back when and no talks of any sort of movie. It was the only time I screamed at my TV.
I run WindowsXP SP2 like anyone else. Sometimes behind hard and soft-based firewalls, sometimes not. My updates are set to auto download every day at 3AM.
It is not the fact I am running SP2. I have been popup and spy/malware free since the days of Windows 2000.
How does any living person with access to a computer keep getting spy/malware? How does a person get a popup window?
I play a MMORPG that doesn't require 3 per day to get somewhere in the game. I have a DVR that limits the amount of TV and Commercials that my kid watches. Rest of the time: coloring, drawing, playing guitar, reading, etc.
Slashdot Mirror
Obviously. Nice login.
I almost accept the fact that they are horses of two different colours (PnPs and MMO). It kills me that MMOs still attached RPG to their genre and in doing that, makes their genre a RPG.
We could argue round and round on what makes a true RPG. But I think it is what we expect out of an RPG is what defines the term "Roleplaying Game"
For some, like myself, want movement of story, development of plot and the ability to create incredible character development while not depending on magic, items or gods to do it. Some want more drama while others want hack-n-slash.
I obviously put more weight in the term RP then most people and I accept that. But to counter your point about 20 to 30 people all together, PnP cannot function with that many people (8 at most with an assistant GM at best). I prefer 3 to 6 players in a group that are in front of each other (face-to-face), who are accountable to each other (see John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory) and where their actions may result in dire consequences. In MMORPGs, you have none of that. You don't have the closeness of personal interaction, the ability to act like an asshat (see John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory) and where our actions don't amount to shit.
Take for instance, World of Warcraft. As a Dwarf, I should be able to denounce my loyalities to the Alliance, trek all the way to Orgrimmar and announce my full allegiance to the Horde and to Thrall, the Warlord of the Orcs. If they do not accept me, they should be able to kill me on the spot and I should perish. Perhaps, my story would make it back to Stormwind and Ironforge. Perhaps not. But because the story is static in WoW, there is no way I can accomplish this. I cannot play an Alliance who through the asshatness of Alliance characters, decides that my character would rather die than to serve the Alliance. If I create a Dwarf, Human, Night Elf or Gnome, I have no choice but to serve the Alliance.
What is crazy is that the Humans and Orcs helped each other (Warcraft III) so I fully expected this to be possible in WoW. Not so much.
But in WoW PnPRPG (yes it is d20 but what can you do), I can do this very easily because it promotes good storytelling and advance plot development. In the current WoW PnP session that I am in, I play a Gnome Rogue who hangs out with a Orc warrior who goes out and tries to earn a living (not an honest living but an living nonetheless).
It doesn't make sense for Roleplaying to be handicapped by developers.
Obviously, pencil-n-paper RPGs are so incredibly superior to MMORPGs, that doesn't need to be discussed. But the author should compare apples to apples (fantasy PnPRPGs to fantasy MMORPGs, etc.) and not crime/dramatic/near-goth jerkfest to MMORPGs.
It still is a shocker to me that there are tons of people who are currently playing MMORPGs who have never played PnPRPG. That is not so much an issue with games like WoW or EQ2 but it is a huge problem with games like NWN. The number one is PnPer knows why certain things work in a certain way and when those items are put into a video game broken, a PnPer will work to correct those issues (e.g. True Sight broke as hell in NWN).
Future MMOs like DDO nor Vanguard do not bridge the gap between MMOs and PnP. They just rehash what has gone in the past with a sprinkle of something different. After I read Vanguard's FAQ, I am not sure if MMORPGs want to get closer to the pinnacle of RPG that is PnP. Somehow, they have created their own genre where the expectations are set lower and the delivery is set right above that line.
I do hate to use fantasy as a generic subgenre of RPGs. You give me SWG and I give you Star Wars d6 system. You give me (insert non-existent Pirates/Explorer/Swashbuckling adventures) and I give you AEG's non-D20 7th Sea. You give me (insert any lame space opera) and I give you Fading Suns. Heck, MMORPGs do not even have an answer for PnPRPG's A Game of Thrones as far as death being a very real thing.
I stopped playing them. The time I was wasting playing MMORPGs translated into:
1) Spending more time with my son
2) Going out, meeting people and hitting on chicks
3) Working out and getting healthy
Crazy what you can do when you actually do something productive.
... why an MMORPG claims to have Roleplaying in it but the world and story appears to be static forever and ever and where the players cannot change the world around them?
I would love an explanation on that. That would be sweet.
Point taken.
I am trying to figure out how are MMORPGs are still considered "fun".
I used to play WoW but I couldn't figure out what AQ was. I wish someone told me it was the bugs in Sithilus(sp) so I would care a lot less especially when there are rumours about a joint Alliance/Horde 100-man raid on Arthas.
I have noticed the comments on sex lives and "thank god, I don't play this game". Back in November (coincidently the 1 year anniversary of WoW's gold release), I ended up having 1.5 hours of free time per night. Do I spend it playing a RP game that never changes and never updates OR do I go and workout and do something for my health.
Play a video game or workout.
When you look at those options, do you really have a choice? Am I alone in this or am I the only geek who has seen the light?
... from Asian and Anglo parents, all I got to say is "HA!".
It is so great to hear other people talk about race relations and the tension in their voice/posting. You know, it really REALLY doesn't have to be this hard.
As a manager for many years, the amount of non-Anglos that would applied for open or closed positions were close to the same ratio in the city population. I would be concerned if I didn't get any Hispanic, Asian, Indian or Black applicants.
I would also be freakin' pissed if I found out my recruiters were racially screening my applicants.
Race relations asides, I know that my boss and my coworkers think I am godsend and love the work and expertise I bring to the table.
I liked it when it was first out called "AEG's 7th Sea". For those D20 diehards, I liked it when it was called "A Game of Thrones RPG".
Geez.
I have been an avid supporter of Nikon since I used it professionally as a photog in the USAF. This news absolutely sickens me.
Of course, maybe I can then pickup a F5 or F6 on the cheap.
Plan a trip using Mass Transit going from Fort Worth to Dallas and back.
I can plan a trip in Fort Worth and one in Dallas. I would like to see how it handles going back and forth using up to 3 mass transit systems (The T, Trinity Express, DART).
We have got to be the biggest metroplex with the suckiest mass transit system.
I have gone 9 years of dressing casually at work. I dress like a complete bum when I get home (sleeveless shirts, knit shorts and flip flops, anyone). I am also 6'5 at 275lbs so buying clothes is real fun.
I get to a new job and the dress code is no different. I am the only SysAdmin but I work with other coders. My boss dresses snazzy most of the time but his boss dresses in cotton button-down shirts, jeans and cowboy boots.
For the first time in 9 years, I LOVE coming to work. You know what? I am thinking about not dressing casually but instead in slacks, button up shirt and nice shoes. I am feeling good so why the hell not.
Sure I occasionally build and rack a server and might have to do some minor wiring but those are few and far between. I am so grateful and excited to be here, I might just upgrade my wardrobe while I am at it.
I don't mind the price so much. Besides, it is AGoT.
I have a kid but on Saturdays after he goes to sleep, I go and play RPGs.
I have tried to fill the void with MMORPGs but those fall incredibly short of all the things that you can do in PnPRPG.
I have yet to see any MMORPG where you could possibly change the world around you or die trying. I don't understand why we don't have more MMORPG worlds with permenant deaths AND no senseless killing in order to level.
Those are by far not the hottest thing coming out. The only thing I want for Christmas is A Game of Thrones RPG. (Yes, I am going to drop $100 bucks for the Deluxe Edition.)
The only suckness is that it is based on D20 OGL (it would have been so much better if it ran on AEG's 7th Sea engine but I can live through it). But any suckness is overcome by the greatness that is George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire world.
I guess I don't mind D20 but I do mind the crappy magic items (my +10 beats your Epic Damage Reduction... wtf). Give me AGoT with very little magic whatsoever and replace it with character development, drama and politics any day of the week.
... they have changed the MMORPGs are made and played. I am one of thos players with a real life and want casual end game content (drop at a moment's notice, 1 hour or less to complete the first time you run through it, etc.).
IMHO, Blizzard as forced all the other MMORPGs to do things differently such as leveling and questing. In the post-WoW MMORPG world, you cannot dare to release a MMORPG that is a damn time sink and think that you are going to be successful.
I know I will be quitting pretty soon. It was a kick ass experience and I cannot wait for the next big ORPG.
... I couldn't be more thrilled that Opera is now free.
Without a doubt, I felt I got my monies worth.
I second your post. When it comes to server apps, *nix-based apps are golden and great for admins like me. But you will never catch me on a *nix workstation for the exact reason you have listed.
The thing about it is that while the people who write Open Source workstation apps are good programmers, there are not great in the sense that it feels like they put no thought towards intuitiveness and good interaction with the interface. Sure the app is totally stable but if the interface is bunk, why would I use it. That goes to apps such as OpenOffice and GIMP.
Good application interface does not come from the end-user remembering where everything is at and becomes a master at it, it comes from an brand new end user able to navigate easily to the task they need to perform by just looking at the menus and buttoms that are available to them at the start of the program.
As much as the Open Source Community wants to piss all over Mac and Windows, you have to learn what Mac and Windows does great and build off of that. I swear it feels like Open Source programmers are going out of their way to create programs that feel (feel not work) nothing like a Mac or Windows app.
Blizz: When are you going to move the story along? Are you planning to shake things up with realigning alliances within both factions?
For example, at the end of Warcraft III: FT, Jaina Proudmoore and Thrall team up against Jaina's father to take him down and reigned in a new era of peace. I played WoW based on the excellent epic story of Warcraft and I thought it would be a no-brainer that both factions could learn the other faction's language and even earn reputation. For those on RP servers, I thought for sure that we would be able to rewrite the story thus fall and try to reestablish that era of peace.
Well, I was wrong.
Since the launch of WoW, the story is dead. What do you plan on doing to push it closer to Warcraft 4 / WoW 2?
My three year old son gets around in in Windows quite well with left and right clicking. (No, X Windows sucks so don't suggest it). He knows how to open programs he wants (such as browsers), open whatever he wants within (such as bookmarks, etc.) and navigates well within most well-designed kiddie sites. He has been honing his leet skillz since playing City of Heroes with me a year ago.
Not saying that a laptop should be purchased for a 3 year old but I think kids should undoubtedly have their own computer. By the time they are in middle school and they have shown a good amount of responsibility (good passwords, constant backups, on top of security/antivirus updates, etc.), I say why not a laptop for school.
By the time my son hits 6th grade, this debate will be moot.
... when it was called Opera.
Dorks.
I love SciFi. I love comics books. That noted, I hate everything else Whedon has done. His two other shows are spikes through the head at best and his comic writing is meh at best.
That said, Firefly freakin' rocks. Stop basing opinions off of what you saw on Fox. Fox kept jacking the order of the shows, content of the shows and towards the end, didn't even show it in place of sports. Even if you did see it in the first run, you really didn't see it at all.
Fox has jacked up other shows in the past, this is true. But either plenty of people have lost their jobs or they learned a stern lesson when they are going to bring back Arrested Development and brought back Family Guy.
Firefly was one of the balls they dropped. Unfortunately, since they have sold the rights to Universal, they cannot bring back Firefly. Thus, we have Serenity and reruns on SciFi.
Life is good again.
Pwned the DVDs. If you still don't believe us, check the reviews. If 1409 reviews with an average of 5/5 stars is still not good enough for you, rent the DVDs.
I, for one, envy newcomers. They can see "Objects in Space" and think, "oh cool and Serenity will be here soon." Imagine getting the DVDs way back when and no talks of any sort of movie. It was the only time I screamed at my TV.
I run WindowsXP SP2 like anyone else. Sometimes behind hard and soft-based firewalls, sometimes not. My updates are set to auto download every day at 3AM.
It is not the fact I am running SP2. I have been popup and spy/malware free since the days of Windows 2000.
How does any living person with access to a computer keep getting spy/malware? How does a person get a popup window?
That story blows my mind.
I do believe in DMG 3rd Edition it states that on the first page. I don't know about any other D/GMs out there but that is my MO.
I play a MMORPG that doesn't require 3 per day to get somewhere in the game. I have a DVR that limits the amount of TV and Commercials that my kid watches. Rest of the time: coloring, drawing, playing guitar, reading, etc.