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IT Workers Worst Dressed Employees
Poorly Dressed Anonymous Coward wrote to mention are article run in the Syndney Morning Herald saying that IT workers have been dubbed the worst dressed corporate employees. From the article: "Help-desk staff were named as the worst offenders, followed by those working in technology start-ups, many of whom had continued to wear T-shirts to work as a consequence of the casual web culture of the '90s. 'The internet is now such a massive industry but people haven't caught up in terms of their dress'."
Who would be best poised to offer this? Which computer manufacturer has the best design/style sensibilities? Apple of course. Steve Jobs should put out a line of fashionable nerdwear with photos of electronic components on the interior labels.
Each line (named after cool-sounding components like "Capacitor", "Resistor", "North Bridge") has its own signature style and contains a 3 or 4 of each type of item (pants, shoes, shirts, sweaters, coats, blazers). Any combo within the line will look good. Buy two complete lines and you have a week's worth of outfits. Capacitor shirt, capacitor pants, capacitor shoes... you're color coordinated, looking good, and it took you no time at all.
Furthermore, they should have no complex care instructions (wash in warm, tumble dry regular), be seriously stain resistant, and be wrinkle resistant so they don't show the wrinkling effects of all-nighters. And most importantly, make them comfortable.
- Greg
Start a happiness pandemic
forces their IT folks to wear clothes. Shouldn't the fur be enough?
I'll tolerate anything except intolerance.
The Herald seems to think that allowing workers to dress comfortably is a *bad* thing. How strange.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
i bet this aint the real FP
I take offense to that article. I think I'm a very well dressed IT employee. Now excuse me, a pen has exploded in my shirt pocket again.
I'm a project manager at an architecture firm. On my best day i can muster some black jeans and a polo shirt with boots. All my coworkers have horn rimmed glasses with silk slacks and pastel colored shirts. Plus they wear trech coats in the middle of summer. maybe I should get a job in help desk that way I woudl fit right in.
everyone I work with gets a great laugh when I tell them I work in my underwear in my basement... my underwear is pretty fashionable!
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A major consequence of the casual web culture of the '90s was rampant bankruptcy which lead to the rapid up-tick of t-shirts and sweat pants as a fashion statement, and not heating your home in the dead of winter. 55 degrees is awful cold when all you have to wear is t-shirts I can tell you.
If I wear jeans, how can anyone tell if I'm wearing a thong? :)
You are not the customer.
Methinks it the fellows in suits the ones who are behind the times.
I guess the real question is why do IT workers get that freedom when others don't? There's certainly lots of other positions in the world where appearance matters as little. Is it because we've successfully trained the world to diminish their clothing expectations of geeks?
I move servers around, and get dirty regularlly. If I rip a teeshirt, I'm not too upset about it, but if I rip a dress shirt, then its gone. Same thing with pants.
Thats not to say I go to work in ripped clothes. I get clean and decent looking stuff, which is also sturdy.
And its kinda silly to give me shit about my clothes when I have my labret (lower lip) pierced. (Yes, I kept it in during the interview process.)
***Wipes off ketchup from lunch...***
What's their point?
the ethics of dressing well for work are nothing but pathetic capitalist renforcements.
I work at home. Three days a week. Maybe. I make as much as I did during the so called 'internet boom'. I pretty much wear whatever is in the closet unless I'm seeing customers, in which case its jeans and a button down shirt.
Right now, if I was inclined to view these so called 'job offers' as anything more than the local equivalent of a 419 scam, I could make a princely $5k - $25k more than I make now
This looks like a Slashdot product placement
I am very easy to get along with, but I don't have time to waste being nice to people who are being stupid. -Theo
After Christmas last year I got a bunch of nice clothes. Black leather ankle boots, cashmere & wool sweaters, dress shirts, etc. You could say I was mildly metrosexual. When I started a new job the following January I was heckled by quite a few people in the company. One woman always said, "Hey that's a nice shirt... are you gay!?" The best part is the people who were actually gay in the office felt left out because no one was noticing their dress.
Translation: I work for a PR firm and I would really like you to buy more different clothes so my employer will get more money. Be a good consumer and buy a real shirt, not a polyester one. Then the firm will be happy, and you will perhaps get laid!
Seriously, Paul Graham has an essay about this (sort of) here: http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html
"Suits make a corporate comeback," says the New York Times. Why does this sound familiar? Maybe because the suit was also back in February, September 2004, June 2004, March 2004, September 2003, November 2002, April 2002, and February 2002.
Why do the media keep running stories saying suits are back? Because PR firms tell them to. One of the most surprising things I discovered during my brief business career was the existence of the PR industry, lurking like a huge, quiet submarine beneath the news. Of the stories you read in traditional media that aren't about politics, crimes, or disasters, more than half probably come from PR firms.
US Democracy:The best person for the job (among These pre-selected choices...)
In my 10 year career as a techie, I've noticed something about technical people: Those who are the most honest, the least hype driven, have horrid dress sense; where those with the best dress sense are the .bomb millionaires who will leave the country still owing you unpaid paychecks.
This seems to hold true in insurance, real estate, used car salesmen, etc. If somebody is wearing a suit, it's because they're trying to distract you from some other deeper, more important character flaw.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
I am.
I was an exception, however, as my co-workers were kind of weirded out that I didn't wear shorts or T-shirts to work.
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For the force of people behind the phones, terminals, and computers of the world, what reason do they have to dress in any way other than comfortable?
Honestly, I'm curious, what's the point? The clothes make the man? Professionalism to whom? The person on the other end of the phone or screen?
-sp-
If you work in a cube all day and never see a client, whats the problem?
I hate these beaurocratic types that have nothing to do but invent stupid rules, such as expecting everyone to dress to their standard even though there's no practical benefit.
Its what I DO when I'm at work that should matter, NOT what I wear.
- crawling underneath desks
- paid less
so who gives a shit?Either Australians use that phrase differently than we do, or Ms Moss was misunderstood, or she can curl up and die. Money's no object when it comes to feeding your kids. That is, oddly enough, a higher priority for our help desk staff. Sorry if that means the folks at Gap have to fleece a few more idiots to make keep up on their BMW leases.No one here cares that our lead technician wears Raider-motif shirts to work. He's the best tech we've ever had.
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
In capitalist America, internet does not dress YOU!
Who woulda thunk it!
What do you mean "They havn't caught up" you dolt. The author needs to realize that people who worry about what others are wearing are wasting time, space, air etc.
If you encounter customers, fine, dress up. As managment, if you are worrying about what Bob in engineering is wearing, then you have your priorities sorely messed up. Perhaps worrying about ways to make the company profitable would be better. Or, (gasp), how to make the office a nicer place for your employees to work.
If you judge someone by what they are wearing then you are missing out on some very talented, brilliant people. Quite frankly I question the intellegence of some guy who preens himself for 90 minutes every morning to get each strand of his used-car-salesman due slicked back.
END VENT.
I'd much rather focus my energy on getting the job done correctly and on time than on merely looking good. Wearing comfortable clothes helps me focus on the work and not be distracted by that tie around my neck, slowly choking off the blood flow to my brain.
... they'd rather look good than do anything that's actually valuable in life (e.g. promote product features that actually obey the laws of physics).
In corporate culture, Marketing Types are the archetype of this premise
In general, IT workers are not the ones interacting directly with clients in-person, but instead are mostly interacting with people within their own company. Because of this, first impressions really don't matter that much. And, I'm afraid, first impressions are the only reason to get dressed up for business (that, or lack of imagination and fixation on inconsequential things, which is admittedly somewhat descriptive of middle and upper management).
Of course, dressing nicely does help some people focus, and I think it can be beneficial for many to have "work" clothes and "non-work" clothes in order to better differentiate between work and home, but (in another sweeping generalization) I'd say tech nerds (obviously the whole of the IT industry) feel less of a need to discriminate between home and work than some other groups.
... while another survey concluded that marketing is the most "Ghey" or "Metrosexual" (76%) of all departments. "I don't know what it is but the way those guys in marketing call eachother "bro" all of the time and complement eachother on their shoes and accesories is a bit ... yeah" said shipping supervisor Randy Beatty.
I beleive pants restrict code-flow.
At least thats what I tell my boss when he complains he's never seen me in pants.
That, or I ask him why he's looking at my legs.
Yet another fashion industry press release designed to convince everyone we should buy more expensive clothes.
You can mod me down, but you cannot call me a coward.
'The internet is now such a massive industry but people haven't caught up in terms of their dress'.
Agreed. Remember to get your favorite PHB a weeks supply of work T-shirts for Xmas.
I am becoming gerund, destroyer of verbs.
"Always dress for the position you strive for, not for the one you are in" -Some Middle Management Suck Up
It would explain why the Service Desk agents are disregarding this advice. It would also explain why Kenneth Lay always favored pinstripes...
corporate stylist, Melanie Moss
OMG if your job title is corporate stylist you must immediatly proceed to kill whomever gave you that title and then yourself.
I mean, they're the underappreciated lonely guys working extra hours. At least let them wear what they want.
Hot Dog on a Stick employees?!
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
The corporate parent is an Australian media holding company with lots of publications, including one fashion mag. As a general rule, would you go so far as to say that upscale fashion generates more ad revenue for these guys? There was no really blatant direct link, but you gotta figure the culture at this place must be very suit-oriented. They probably have a vested interest in forcinb people to shell out more for rags.
"Clothing makes the man" reflects everything I hate about society. Ok, not quite everything...
I'm more than willing to adopt the dress of computer scientists of yesteryear. Nothing says "professional" like a lab coat. Or overalls. I really like the idea of overalls.
Only geeks unfortunate enough to work on customer sites and such need to wear the corporate uniform. The rest are better off being allowed to stay comfy...
Good, this means that my strategy is going to make everyone trust me.
The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
of suit wearing button monkeys.
May I translate? Here in the great land down under, thongs are something you'd wear with your togs and sunnies, not with your dacks. Did that help?
"1984" was ment to be a warning, not a guidebook. You hear that Kim Jong-il!? BushCo?!
A happy worker is a productive worker
A suit is uncomfortable
A server room is extremely hot, which leads to more discomfort
Discomfort = happy???
... assanine article to put on the front page.
.... check .... check .... check .... check .... check
Most IT workers aren't dealing with customers face to face most of the time. They are sitting in front of computers, and oddly enough, barring big advances in AI and machine vision computers don't care how you dress.
Quick tip #1. If you are sitting in front of a computer all comfort trumps fashion sense evertime.
Quick tip #2. Wearing a stiff buttoned collar with a tie is a pretty bad idea for comfort or probably even good health. I suspect managers do some of the dumb things they do due to the constriction of blood to their brain.
Quick tip #3. Formal dress is expensive and time consuming. Anything that requires dry cleaning is expensive, and ironing or pressing clothes likewise is time consuming or expensive. Most IT workers want to do more productive things with their time and money than going to the dry cleaners or shopping st Nordstrom's.
Quick tip #4. If you are a geek and meeting geeks from other companies chances are they will be in shirts and tee's too and they are going to conclude you are a noob or a phony if you wear a shirt and tie to the meeting. Only time you are gonna do it is if you are meeting executives from a customer because they wrongly place value, and make judgments, on how good or bad the tie you are wearing is. On the plus side ties are a top subject for casual chit chat among air headed executives.
People who deal in person with customers on a regular basis do have a motivation to dress well. Customers will judge you on it and get first impressions, rightly or wrongle.
People who don't deal with customers shouldn't be wearing expensive uncomfortable clothes on a daily basis.
A twist on this argument is people who do dress well are probably some of the least trustworthy:
Politicians
Lawyers
Salesmen
Executives
Stock brokers
You see these are all people who are spending big money to create a facade partially based on their wardrobe. They seek to impress you with their clothes to distract you from their substance.
@de_machina
Which way are you going? I said I noticed the inverse porportion law- not that the rest of society did!
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
If you work on the IBM Help Desk, you can be shot (or fired, whichever is more painful) for not dressing properly. It depends on how formal (or informal) the host company is and if the lead IBM manager is a tradionalist.
I dress business casual (i.e., slacks and a polo shirt) in a laid back company. I would get into trouble in a more formal environment since I'm wearing New Balance Cross Trainer 450 shoes since I use public transportation and walk a mile to get to work.
I think this looks at it wrong perspective. What they should ask is: Why aren't other industries abandoning Dress Codes? They seem unnessicary to me. I don't see why wearing what one wants, within reason, is dressing "badly". I happen to think the clothes look good, otherwise I wouldn't be wearing them!
--The universe will not be altered by forum threads, even those which are very wry. --Tycho Brahe (Penny Arcade)
...they should bring in more vendors with better swag to bestow upon the IT employees.
"A government is a body of people, usually notably ungoverned." - Shepard Book Quoting Malcolm Reynolds
I've worked help desk and would argue that t-shirts and jeans are an appropriate attire for the job because your interaction with the client is via telephone.
Those that disagree would do better to be more concerned with how an individuals professionalism shows through over the phone as opposed as to how they are dressed. This said, whenever I meet with a customer in person I always wear a suit.
I think that this lady is missing the point completely.
Well maybe if we all stopped buying 90% of our clothing at thinkgeek.com...
Behold, another webcomic!
I'm at a loss to understand why t-shirts are considered bad corporate dress. Consider:
- They are comfortable
- They are hip (for instance, I'm wearing a green t-shirt with the "sabretooth lime" from Kingdom of Loathing right now)
- They are inexpensive and easy to clean
Plus, the work we do isn't client-facing, so why would our dress matter?
Oh! Wait! I remember now -- IT has become a mature industry, and so it is becoming populated with higher-ups who came from other industries where how you looked actually mattered, and they can't get with the times. Makes sense now.
Very true, but there's more to it: the same thing also holds when you're a manager trying to assess those who work for you. Granted, the fact that someone dresses more sloppily than others doesn't automatically make them better at their job, of course, but my own experience seems to support the hypothesis that there is still some truth to it.
Those who are exceptionally good at their job can afford to dress more sloppily - their bosses will be willing to overlook these things, considering the quality of their work. When someone dresses extremely neatly, on the other hand, it might be that he doesn't have any other redeeming qualities really.
Of course, this only goes for people who're not dealing with customers etc.
quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur.
IT people don't really need to project an image to the rest of the business. We're not jugded on how we look, as much as how we perform.
Besides, Brooks Brothers doesn't have any WiFi/Bluetooth-enabled business suits anyway.
to cut off their ponytails.
Something tells me they'll be waiting just as long for this current generation of geeks to stop wearing T-shirts to work.
Part of the reason behind corporate dress codes is to act as a form of control over the employees. Now, while definitely do this as an overt show of force (i.e. you belong to us, you will dress the way we want because *WE* not you, are in control) it's also done for the reason that it typically makes people feel more professional. You're not hanging out at home, you're at work, wearing your work clothes.
Is this always completely sensible though? No, it frequently isn't. I worked doing customer service over the phone and while the dress code was rarely if ever enforced we were still forbidden to wear hats and halfway through the summer they decided to enforce a ban on shorts as well. The only time we would interact with anyone was over the phone. Being tethered to your phone and monitored for every second of the day (e.g. going to the bathroom was something you did on your break) there wasn't even the ability to really interact with other employees face-to-face, let alone management or clients.
I think it's the guys who think they need to wear silly-looking ritualistic costume pieces like ties in order to get work done who are behind the times. For fuck's sake...
Property is theft.
I never have to worry about what matches what. Laundry is a snap, no whites with colours mix ups.
I've been dressing in this gear for a couple of years and everyone is now OK with it. Intrestingly I can almost grade the reactions by degree of intelligence/education. Professionals don't seem to care, especially in the health care professions.
As an added bonus I get to seriously grate people who can't see past whatever tribal dress code is forced on them.
"Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
Cohen
I'm gonna wear 3-piece tweed suits with a bowler and a handlebar moustache to work every day!
Just like physicists in the early 1900's. Seriously, ever seen how neatly employees at Bell Labs, Bayer, IBM and other famous places dressed back then?
(This coming from a person who's summer wardrobe consists of 18 black Haynes t-shirts from WalMart.)
https://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
I think those losers, throwbacks with those shirts fastened up the front with little plastic widgets... you know, the ones with the flaps around their neck, sometimes carrying the little nooses draped down the front... they're badly dressed. With the edges embossed down their pants legs, like they're just out of the package. Those extra jackets that don't keep you warm because the chest is open. Some bizarre old-fashioned wear, like a penguin, but not as sharp.
T-shirts and jeans look a lot better. Expecially because they can have a lot more variety than those old uniforms. I miss the 90s.
--
make install -not war
Yeah, I could wear "fashion" "business atire", but I would be spending more money each week repairing and replacing damaged clothing then I get paid in teh first place. So I wear jeans, black walking shoes (or work boots depending on if servers are being moved or need to be installed), and either a polo or other similar shirt, occasionally a T-Shirt. And if they get a tear or get dirty, or soaking wet (yes, soaking wet from finding water under a floating floor in a server room), or any of a hundred other things that happen when you don't sit behind a desk or just go to confrences or meetings, I don't really care too much.
We were all warned a long time ago that MS products sucked, remember the Magic 8 Ball said, "Outlook not so good"
If she had to spend as much time under a desk or in other odd places that most people in the building never see she'd probably get pissed when her Armani skirt got dirty.
See Sig! See Sig Zig! Zig Sig Zig!!!!!
frist post!!!! oh yeah, can you feel it?!!!!1!?
can you???
I have very good dress sense,
I just choose not to apply it to myself...
-- it's ridiculous how many people misspell ridiculous... (damn, damn, damn...)
I work for one of the five biggest software companies in the world, and my CEO wears torn jeans to work.
I gave a demo to about 30 executives yesterday and I wore jeans and a turtleneck sweater.
Anyone who criticizes the way I dress DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THE SOFTWARE INDUSTRY!
Sam
I walked into the local pharmacy the other week to fill a prescription. Behind the counter, next to the pharmacist, I saw a large florid-faced and bearded man wearing a polo shirt. I thought "That must be their IT guy. I bet he's wearing shorts." I stepped up to the counter and peered over. Yup. Shorts.
He noticed my glance and I could see him size me up. He too saw a large florid-faced and bearded man wearing a knit henley and shorts. Our eyes met and I knew that he knew were were of the same tribe, shamans to the silicon spirits. We smiled an went about our business.
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers
For he to-day that sheds his tie with me
Shall be my brother; be he e'er so vile
With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
That's it. Developers can wear white shirts, but notice his turtleneck doesn't even have an Apple logo.
Colors and things, that's ok for Linux folk, who stay in the back room
At work, I generally wear a dress casual shirt (Eddie Bauer button-down in the winter, golf shirt in the summer) and jeans (I've managed to find a pair or two in khaki and black in addition to regular blue, in case there's a day I need to look a little dressier), and hiking boots.
I doubt most people who write editorials such as this have to:
a) Crawl on their hands and knees underneath desks to work on a user's PC
b)troubleshoot cables in a dusty, messy wiring closet with sharp edges of racks and other equipment in the way
c)clean out PC's with months of spiderwebs, dust bunnies, users' food crumbs, etc.
To top that off, I have a feeling that the snobs who write these articles are getting paid two to three times what I'm making, and buying a suit is nothing to them. Whereas I have a car payment (on a Honda Civic, not a BMW) and a mortgage on a small, but reasonable house, and yet it requires the income of myself and my wife to support it.
You want me to dress up? Raise my salary accordingly so I can afford it, and purchase robots that can fix things in areas where you wouldn't dare wear a suit. But wait...wouldn't that just be promoting me from the IT Dept. to...management?
Perhaps people who write these articles should learn more about what such a job entails before they fashion police it.
Never look down your nose at others. Someday, someone is bound to see your boogers.
Not my computer, It does not give a damn wether i'm wearing casual clothes, corporate suit or nothing. not the customer, who can't see helpdesk personnel over the phone anyway. The suits care. The jocks care. The fashion-bitches care. Not any one who matters. So why bother? If I get a choice between a programmer with two different colored socks and ill matching shirt and trousers and once nicely-dressed up and quite fashionable when I need to get the code working, i'll _gladly_ choose the first. At least his mind isn't on his appearance all the time.
Timeo hominem unius libri
Personally, I just assumed that the "casual web culture of the '90s" changed the dress culture, rather than just being a blip on the radar of people who think choking themselves with brightly colored napkins and inflexible fabrics is a good thing.
Do you really need reason for beer? Wingman Brewers
There is a legendary incident at (the now defunct) Mindspring when a tech support employee undressed and took calls in the nude at her workstation.
I wear berks, shorts, vneck tees, and a bandana (like a pirate)... I have been dressing like this since the early 90s, and I will not change for some job. Fuck them. They either want *thier* problems solved, or they can move along.
Conclusions based on appearance are bad, *never* judge a book by the cover.
She added that wearing natural fibres was also important. "Polyester doesn't wear well, and gets sweaty and smelly," she said.
She was as discreet as possible...
just to crawl about a server rack and under peoples desks, wtf is the point ?
A carpetbagger in a suit is still just a carpetbagger.
Autonomous Retard -- Is your camp safe? UnsafeCamp.com
I'm here to program, not get a date.
The cake is a pie
We judge others based on their appearance. I judge people who wear really nice clothes and style their hair as having way too much time and/or money on their hands.
Conversely, I judge people who actually speak against more casual appearances as having way too little purpose in their lives.
I work for a bank. One of the BIG banks. And despite what one might think, even they are smart enough to realize that "off stage" workers don't need to be held to any silly rules about dress.
Our dress code is basically "don't forget to put on your pants/shorts". (I'm in Austin, so most of the year, it's shorts).
Why should I be uncomfortable all day when I sit in an office and don't talk to, interact with, or look at anyone that is a client? I don't sleep in a suit. I don't lounge on saturday in a shirt and tie. What does wearing a tie have anything to do with writing code? I can understand if you are meeting with people, but to sit behind a screen all day requires little to no fashion.
Hell, I should be nude if I want to. It's not like my office has any windows.
*light sobbing*
zork% mv *.asp
283 files eaten by a grue
Ms Moss would love me...I bought the jacket I wore today in 1979.
Well no kidding. I have found that some of the most unsociable, least well-kept, most unfit people to be in IT (backoffice departments).
Often times people choose these professions because they lack any sort of social skills needed to interact with people.
Of course, I'll be flamed.
eTrade SUCKS
Now that's interesting- it might be a *part* of the reason I interview badly, but work well. I always wear my *only* suit to interviews.....
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Sure, why not? After all, we're the first to get "downsized", first to have our budgets cut- this despite the fact that IT workers have the highest attrition rate of virtually any other job category. We're often the only people in an entire company "required" to carry a pager. Our managers won't stick up for us, we work in a job which we're visible only when something is wrong (so no matter how good a job we do, the question is "why did this break in the first place). We spend all day listening to people whine and have little "chats" with the boss when we don't bed over far enough. We're the #1 excuse of why business doesn't get done ("oh, I didn't get that out for fedex by 6 because my laptop stopped working right before I was going to save it! Those IT people can't do anything right!").
Tell you what? Give me that salary review I was promised when I signed up. Give me a competitive wage even half that of the slick-haired assholes in sales, or the ditzy bleached bimbos in marketing. Take me out to lunch when the mail server crashes and I get everything back up and running in record time, yet again.
I'll be more than happy to dress nicer in return.
Please help metamoderate.
From TFA:
And if you must wear jeans and thongs in to work
I, for one, welcome our thong-wearing coworker overlords!
We poor bastards have to work ridiculous hours, crawl around under and behind peoples desks, fuck around under server room floors, sometimes even do shit around dusty cable runs. It gets bloody uncomfortable. We even cut ourselves on bloody computers for our thankless companies and staff. Hello? We BLEED for those bastards! My mother always complained about how much *I* made her bleed during my birth. Well damn it, we bleed too and want some recognition for it! You know that saying? BLOOD, sweat and tears? It was a skinny nerd with thick black framed glasses, held together with a bandage that coined that phrase. I'm sure one day he just got sick of wrecking business shirts with blood and ink stains from the pens in his BROKEN pocket protector and decided, "To hell with pocket protectors, to hell with my own pens and to hell with uncomfortable business shirts! From now on it's t shirts, no more pocket protectors and fuck it, I'm just going to use whatever pen I find in this damn war zone".
Actually, I don't know what's worse. Getting blood on a $70 business shirt or getting blood on one of my most excellent and beloved OpenBSD t's.
Hmm, I wonder how many OpenBSD t's I could buy if I claim workers comp?
War crimes, torture, lies, illegal spying... Would someone give Bush a blowjob, already, so he can be impeached?
I've been wearing T-shirts - mostly tie-dye - to work for 25 years. Sometimes I wear shoes (generally if it's cold, and actually, more often for some reason as I've aged). My clothes are always clean and I shower and shampoo daily.
I'm an engineer, so there's no reason to "dress to impress" -- if my work doesn't impress, then fire me.
The antidote for misuse of freedom of speech is more freedom of speech.
-- Molly Ivins
my computer doesn't f$@#ing care what I look like
From the topic post: "but people haven't caught up in terms of their dress."
I am offended that the tech leaders of the late 90's and double-oughts need to catch their dress code up to the 80's and before. I think it should be safe to assume that if people can dress their webpages up enough to catch costomers' approval, then dress-code really doesn't matter. If you need your web/tech employees to dress well enough to do a good job, then you have hired the wrong employees. Sheesh.
What's the alternative? An uncomfortable polyester nightmare?
We're uncomfortable enough *being* around these corporate goons, now we have to look like them too?
Sheesh!!
'The internet is now such a massive industry but people haven't caught up in terms of their dress'
It kills me that a bunch of drones brainwashed into wearing an outfit that hasn't really changed in decades is telling the IT industry to catch up...
When I worked on the IT staff at a hospital, I had to wear a dress shirt, Dockers, and a tie. Not really dressy-dressy, but I didn't mind it.
This is the stupid topic i ever read on slashdot. Who the hell cares what we wear to work? It's all about the code we made, not if we wear jeans or slacks to work. Idiots...stupid idiots.
-AT
Working in a DevOps shop is like playing in a band made up entirely of keytarists.
Well when you cram us in the bowels of the building, WTF do you expect? Sheeeeeit...
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts...for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang
In many Australian cities during summer there can often be a week where every day it reaches 40C (104 degrees F) and often goes over 45 (113F).
And yet we are expected to wear clothes based on the finery 19th century European noblemen sported for cold Northern Hemisphere winters. This is really dumb.
In order to keep cool and yet still look professional for clients, my work recently adopted a corporate uniform of open collars, (optional) short sleeves and natural cool fibres. Long sleeves and ties are ridiculous in the Australian summer.
She also recommends looking through magazines to get a feel for what suits you. "This is about thinking about what suits you instead of following trends," she said. Someone please explain to me how looking through everyday magazines for clothing advice is *not* following a trend. I honestly fail to see what the article writer is talking about here. I can think of nothing more trendy than browsing magazines to gain fashion advice of any kind.
No way! I can't program with a suit. I want to be comfortable while coding.
So who here thinks that Trudy may not be receiving her email for a while?
I had the CEO of a company I was working at start to gripe about my ignoring the dress code. I pointed at the pile of dirt and dust and dead insects that'd fallen out of the ceiling tile I'd pulled aside to work up in there and asked him if he was willing to get into that wearing his suit? He said no way, it was too expensive to ruin. I asked him if he was going to pay if I ruined my good clothes in there? He said no. "Then why should I? Now, can I get back to finding and fixing this wiring problem, or do you want the demo you're doing this afternoon, the one you said was critical to the company's success this year, to flop when none of the stuff you want to show off actually works?".
What you said is true to some degree, but I see many exceptions, especially in these days. I've seen many mediocre engineers who dress badly in hope of impressing people they are skilled. You know, worn-out conference/startup T-shirts from 90s, etc. I personally don't trust these types, either.
I for one welcome our new suit and tie wearing overlords.
:-0 *gasp*
Wait... that's not funny at all
[signature]
Carhartts
Then again, when it is pitch black out at noon, the wind is blowing at 45knots, and you are trudging through a foot of snow to reach certain buildings, my boss realizes how insane it would be to require more formal attire.
I work in interior Alaska, and the above description is what someone from the lower48 could only call a "nice day" compared to our bad ones.
everyone wearing a suit in hot enough conditions has issues. Hell, yes! I can't concentrate because it's 30C and I'm sweating like a pig, but damn do I look sharp! Short sleeves do have their advantages, even if it's only helping you deodorant keep operating for those extra 30 minutes.
Fuck suits. I'm not saying that you should come to work in the least stinking rag that was lying on your bedroom floor, but there's quite some choice in "casual" clothing that doesn't make you look like a turd while still being comfortable. You wanna wear your Armani to work? Fine, if you need to compensate for something be my guest. But don't make me suffer. I happen to like what I'm wearing, I don't stink and I don't look like the minimum wage you're paying me. So STFU.
Most fun experience: a trade show in a rather badly ventilated location. It was 30C outside and certainly not too much cooler inside. Just about everyone was wearing suits. It stank like a frickin' cattle pen! Those freaks didn't even take their jackets off. I still don't know what they did hope to communicate. Was it their ability to breathe pure sweat vapor? The incredible resistance to dehydration? It certainly wasn't their ability to do the practical thing and take their damn jackets off. What did I think? I thought that I certainly wouldn't want to do business with some stinkting guy sweating silently in his booth, and what the hell must their offices be like?
Fight hunger. Filet a politician and send him to a 3rd world country of your choice.
When you are programming/setting stuff up in front of a computer you need to be comfortable... ....
When you are in server rooms all day you have to dress warm
When you are cabling/installing equipment you need clothes that you can ruin, and can get into strange positions in the cable tunnel, in the rack (between the router and the firewall)
When you are on the field (e.g. wireless installation, or climbing on a roof/pole) you need to wear whatever else than suit/formal crap
Have you guys ever gone to work formally dressend and came back looking like a pig ? Yes, on that day when you had to fix whatever in emergency, on that day when you fixed code 6hours overtime, missed the last bus and waited for taxi at 2am in the rain?
My boss used to say: if you come in here in monkey suit I send you home... of course that did not apply to formal events (e.g. presentations, trade shows. etc), or when visitors were expected to the IT dept.
Of course than there is the IT guy that does not just wear a formal cloth, but the one that does not take showers or change clothes for a week.....
This is gross so beware:
I had a colleague who stank from 5 meters, and who left a yellowish ear-wax on phones after every talk....
He did night shifts, so in the morning the cleaning crew was instructed to wash all phones with alcohol...
I personally locked my phone in my drawer every night !
He stank so much the girls at the company got him deodorant and soap for Christmas - to no avail...
I mean let's face it, when you spend 24hours in front of the computer you are not in the best fit for a big hug, but showers help.
note:
ties are the most stupid invention ever. you feel like crap enough in the suit and the all buttoned up shirt, then you need an other piece of cloth to make you even more miserable....
I personally work in underwear and a pair of headphones
I think that this is what Technology Enabled Clothing is attempting to do- I hope their 4.0 version is better than the 2.0 version, I don't fit in the seats on the train due to all the stuff in my pockets....
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
a clown in a suit is still just a clown in a suit.
...that any mode of dress involving a pocket protector is far worse than a t-shirt and jeans.
but have you considered the following argument: shut up.
I have 12 of the same thing.
12 black cotton polo shirts
12 black bdu
1 pair of combat boots with a high polish shine to them.
That is how I deal with the dress code
Tip: In order to keep black staying black longer, add one pack of black dye to every third wash load. Wash on warm and use cheer for darks.
Great people don't need people to complete them, great people complete other people. -- Matthew Pawlikowski.
See subject.
article run in the Syndney Morning Herald saying that... I'm afraid it's the "Sydney" Morning Herald...
Anyone up for some 'queer eye for the tech guy'? Personally I'll stick to my black jeans and thinkgeek t-shirts.
What stuffed shirt made this point? A SOX auditor? Most likely. That's the sort of thing a SOX auditor would notice. Notice, I didn't say "stupid SOX auditor". That would have been redundant.
Some programming departments defend their slob culture quite fiercely.
Take some professional pride - I hate it when people come in looking like slobs. I am a new yorker.
I'm a 2000 man.
What the unwashed masses here miss out on is that if you start dressing nicer, people will treat you better, and you will get promoted and or paid more... Sure, you can be judged objectively
on your work, but most of your work is presentation and communication. Those should be as neat and professional as possible. Do you go to
the doctor expecting him to walk in wearing flip flops, with greasy hair etc... no... why?
It is the expectation of professionalism. Dress for success is a common factor that really holds its value. But you should only dress just a little bit less than as good as your boss, or your bosses boss (if you want your bosses job and you think your boss is an idiot).
Seriously. You will be surprised how quickly you get promoted or well treated and taken more seriously.
If you dress like a student, you get treated like a student. If you are 40 and still dressing like a student, people think you are weird. If you dress better, you get women or men whichever is your fancy.
Many grad students also go through this phenomena. The start off wearing the same old same, and then as they get closer to graduation they start dressing nicer and nicer until one day the boss no longer thinks of them as a student in training, but as a credible scientist.
God help you if your boss dress like a slob. I would take another job seriously.
C'mon, it takes a lot of money to look good and to develop the style to know when you look good. People in tech support don't get paid enough money to look good.
Plus,...well,...their brains work differently.
It could be worse. Lip Shit Ralph Lauren forced the people working in his stores to buy the company clothes from his company at full retail cost. And then he paid them minimum wage plus a few points commission on what they sold. How's that for suck?
Plus how about filling some of the cubicles with beautiful young women? Tech support guys know that they are zeros and will most likely always be zeros. They realize that they will constantly have to be studying new technologies in order to remain employed at chump wages. They know that they will never have the social status that their counterparts in Bangalore and Chennai have with the general public. They know that they will be working for the rest of their lives in dead soulless drab cubicles. They know that the only difference between their lives and the lives of those who are serving (in USA the same verb is used for being in the military and being in prison) 20 years for killing record company lawyers is that they are less likely to be raped after 'work'. So they figure, why not where whatever I feel like wearing.
What difference does it make to anyone?
I miss those- would never dream of wearing one more than six months old, but it used to be a nice outing I could charge to the "training" account and get a nice t-shirt for attending. Never did miss a Microsoft TechNet in those days...I think my last T-shirt though is Windows 2000; so all that would say today is "this guy is outdated".
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
I love this line of reasoning. It's used by both sides of this argument. If you assume someone is a liar just because they wear a suit, you are simply judging someone based on their appearance. Just like a management type judging an engineer type because he is dressed poorly. If you think you can really see through someone just because of the type of clothing they wear, whether cheap or expensive, you have grossly overinflated your own powers of reasoning. You are simply prejudging people, which is not intelligent, analytical behavior. I know crooks in suits and crooks in khakis. Don't you?
...I'm waiting for the Englishman to proclaim that "Across the pond manners are manners and we behave like gentlemen. Furthermore I do think that the donkey ought to be smart would it like to explain anything."
Why should I wear (and wear out) good clothes when there's no single women where I work?
More than 150 tech professionals attended a corporate fashion show in Sydney last night as organisers officially dubbed the industry "the worst dressed" in Australia.
Short sleeved shirts, man-made fibres and the wrong coloured socks were some of the most common fashion faux-pas cited by corporate stylist, Melanie Moss, who hosted the event.
"Because the majority of IT people are not in front of customers all the time, they tend to slack off," she said.
Help-desk staff were named as the worst offenders, followed by those working in technology start-ups, many of whom had continued to wear T-shirts to work as a consequence of the casual web culture of the '90s.
You know, clothes have pretty consistently gotten simpler and more comfortable over the years. Maybe this "Melanie Moss" corporate stylist (who, to be blunt, is probably not the most unbiased person to ask about what is appropriate to wear in the workplace) is wrong and the people wearing the clothes are right.
You've got a list of a couple things to do with clothes:
(1) Look more physically attractive to attract the guy/girl who works at the place. (Fair enough, if that's your goal.) I personally think that they aren't likely to care whether you wear Old Navy or Banana Republic, but I'm also not everyone.
(2) Look imposing to try to influence people (especially with out-of-company dealing). Anyone who has to do outside-the-company interfacing probably already has to wear nice clothes. That being said, anyone you're interfacing with is probably also experienced at the game, and isn't too likely to be impacted much by a snazzier set of clothes.
(3) Try to produce a different psychological environment to help put yourself in a "work" mindset. Not a bad idea -- a lot of people that work at home set up home offices just to deal with this particular type of problem. However, I think that there are better ways to do this -- just the fact that you're physically at work should be sufficient, IMHO. Clothes are an expensive way to solve this problem in terms of effort.
None of these reasons are all that compelling to me.
She added that wearing natural fibres was also important. "Polyester doesn't wear well, and gets sweaty and smelly," she said.
That's a little bit Luddite to me. Way to blow away all technological advancement with a single comment, you know?
I think that people are impacted a lot less by what they wear than they think at work. I'd say that how people act matters a lot more: people who are friendly and polite versus people that are irritable and abrupt seem to make far more difference than what the person is wearing. Being good at your job is probably going to be more interesting to your boss than in whether you properly matched your socks.
Any program relying on (nontrivial) preemptive multithreading will be buggy.
If you aren't the average size.
My relevent dimesions are 32, 36, and 36. Those are waist, inseam, and sleave length measured in inches. It is near impossible to find clothing that fits, even at big and tall shops. Actually, big and tall shops are much more consistant. They never carry anything that fits.
Long ago, I mostly gave up. I could find and buy short sleave shirts and jeans without major effort so that's what I wore. More recently, I am finding that I can't even find jeans without a multi day cross town search. After the last such search, I found two pairs at the largest of several GAP stores in my metro area. I bought them both. After I left the store, they once again had nothing in my size.
Some say the Internet is to blame. Brick and morter clothing shops think they can avoid the expense of carrying a full range of sizes but telling odd size people to buy online. Never mind that fit can not be verified through a web browser. Whatever the reason, it takes all the fun away. It is hard to get excited about fashion when even the basics are denied.
No- I can honestly say I don't know any crooks in khakis. However, beyond that you're absolutely right. It is a judgement based entirely on appearance and therefore likely to be wrong. And management types are people we expect to base their judgements on appearance- and be wrong 99% of the time.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
"Language"? "LANGUAGE"?! It's called "English" for a reason, not "American". Bush has done the most damage for us Americans internationally (using his own "language" along the way), but you and yours is the second leading reason Americans are considered brash assholes internationally (thanks for that, BTW!). Just because you believe the USA is the (only) land of milk and honey doesn't mean the whole of the rest of the world is some 3rd world shit hole (besides, I've been to some nice 3rd world "shit holes"). Contrary to your belief, there is more then one culture in the world. I'd welcome you to experience some of them, but really you'd just help to give Americans an increasingly bad name abroad.
Here's one more reagional American-ism for you: Pop = Soda Pop = Soda = Coke. Depending on where you're at in the USA, each term may or may not be reconized (save "coke"). Just as the parent was mentioning with flip-flops.
Props for not AC'ing though! Least you can sack up!
"1984" was ment to be a warning, not a guidebook. You hear that Kim Jong-il!? BushCo?!
When I see Ballmer or Gates begin dressing like Steve Jobs, I'll make the Men's Warehouse my new home. Until then I'll stick with the chic geek look.
... when it comes to casual dress. The flight suit is basically a green bag with arms & legs. My last job was as a software engineer (uniform of the day: jeans & t-shirt), so I might go my entire life without wearing anything dressy to work. :)
I used to wear crappy t-shirts & jeans to work too.
:)
I've started upscaling my dress, i'm at a nice casual now. and i'm working my way up to business casual (those things are expensive if you goto a place like Mens' Warehouse!)
A friend of mine poked and prodded me into it, and it's worked wonders. The first thing i've seen is that people notice when you dress better; other guys, my boss(!), and most importantly women!
even if they never say it, though a few people have, you can see it in their faces.
And as a part of dressing better i've noticed how different I feel about myself.I care about the way I look! I like the way I look now! I'm more confident in myself and my abilities. And it think it's helped with my status at work, i just got tapped to work on a major new project where we're rewriting our codebase using modern design & testing techniques (pattern-based, platform -indepent, unit-testing w/ cppUnit, inline comments w/ doxygen, etc). I seriously believe that my improvements on myself in this fashion helped me get that role.
And now that I'm more confident in myself, i've noticed i'm more comfortable around people, and my experiences w/ the ladies are going much better too.
--vat
IT people dress way better than some. When will these people realise they're letting us ALL down.
They dress funny. Like Yahoo Serious.
OK so I live in Seattle. So dress in the IT side of things doesn't usually involve a tie. I have also worked in Germany and it was the same there. We didn't need to see customers so it really didn't matter. That is certainly true in the article. "She also recommends looking through magazines to get a feel for what suits you. "This is about thinking about what suits you instead of following trends," she said." Man that is right on the ball.....maybe if she came from capitol hill. Then we will talk. Is my tin hat considered a man made material?
I cannot understand some of the comments ...
...
....
... it is childish, but I had fun :)
...
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tshirt != cheapy
I am the person who would wear a tshirt for 4 years+, and have pants that are kicking 5+ years, however their prices are well over or around your "nice store shirt".
I hate shopping for clothes, because I am extra picky, and when buying (e.g. skateboarder-style cargo pants - my favourite) I can spend 2 hours in a store trying to find something that would not fall apart after a year, and something that would be damn comfortable.... I even think of the afterlife, as my really old clothes end up on the trails hiking, or riding bikes. and playing paintball
I see that a t-shirt is NOT elegant, but I also throw up on the "manager" in "see-thru" socks and a suit that has the price of my t-shirt : looking at me if I was a homeless or something....
now I am a bit old for that, but as a teenager I actually enjoyed mis-dressing for every single place.... if there was no escape, I put on tennis shoes or a really ugly tie just to mismatch
I went to a wedding recently, and my wife was freaked out that one women (waaaay older than her) had the same dress as her.... well dunno, I'd like that problem, since I am all sick of being dressed like all the other guys : black suit, nice shoe
ohh no wait, you can express yourself with a tie and a nice shirt
screw uniform, screw suits
I've never understood the big deal. It's not costly to dress nicely to work. Buy dark pants that will work with most shirts and go nuts. Is it hard to understand that the way you look impacts what people will think about you? Well, I suppose I don't really care, less competition at work is less competition at work.
For the record, I am a huge fan of the obesity epidemic... well as long as more men are obese than women anyhow, that ratio changes and I'm a be pissed.
Still a carpetbagger - and 1 suit's worth poorer, to boot.
Maybe it's sub-subliminal.
They might want us to open online nerdware stores, and then steal the f*on line, or the f-line OS software - and bundle it on their own.
I try to dress nicely, though jeans and t-shirts qualifies. Still, this article smacks of ulterior motives.
Of course, those few of you who have decided to jerk your knee in my direction as a software person who *does* occasionally dress up, can go **** yourselves.
The only thing that does bother me is when somebody smells, but that can often have less to do with your clothes and more with your grooming tendencies.
Moo
Don't be deceived! This is Communist Propaganda designed to destroy Capitalism and Freedom, just look at his name!
Oh wait, he makes his money with M$ shit, false alarm...
Any mirror available?
That's strange. As a reasonably smartly-dressed, skilled and experienced techie, my conclusion has been that there is pretty much no correlation whatsoever between how smartly someone dresses and how good they are at their job. Frankly, your implication that I'm an unprofessional rip-off merchant because I'm happier wearing reasonably smart clothes to work is kinda offensive.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Yeah, this is a hot button for me. People in a work environment who dress in garbage such as sandals, shorts, and grungy T-shirts have a predominate lack of respect. Lack of respect for themselves. Lack of respect for their profession. Lack of respect for their outward presentation. And that goes a long way towards explaning the attitude of most people in this business. Generally, dev-minded people have little or no respect for others, for authority, they are highly cynical and sarcastic, they don't like structure, they don't respect their customers. They all want to be fucking cowboys riding free on the range. Whatever. It is a total joy for me when I get to fire these idiots. I'd trade ten respectable, respectful developers who were good teammates over one genius who was a pariah and dressed like a moron who had nothing to lose.
I sincerely hope some level of professionalism and respect comes back to this business at some point.
So what, you look nice? With your attitude about dress, why would I want to hire you?
The value of a programmer with a bad attitude is no where near the value of programmer with a good attitude.
It's easy to tell someone in a cheap suit. Looking nice doesn't require wearing a tie. I consider clothing, like body language, to be an additional means of subliminal communication. You should dress in a way to make the people you interact with think favorably of you. In many cases, this will mean shorts and a t-shirt. My other personal rule is that nice clothes must be comfortable.
For myself, I keep nice linen shirts for hot summer days, and thicker cotton button-downs for cold winter days. In each case, I'm wearing something better suited to the climate than a t-shirt, and I also look better.
Here's my basic advice:
Don't go for cheap dress shirts; they look cheap, they wear out far too quickly, and they don't feel that good. A good-quality dress shirt should be at least as comfortable as a t-shirt, if not more so.
Nice walking shoes are a must; Ecco and Rockport (sp?) both make extremely comfortable shoes, and look nice as well.
For slacks, avoid the pleated fronts. That's your free fashion tip for the day. Also avoid dress pants; go for nice cotton or linen pants instead. They're as soft as jeans, with more freedom of movement. They're also fairly durable.
...my pastor dresses, and just about everyone at my church. What is wronge with jeans/t-shirts?
I don't preview or spellcheck.
Well maybe if you'd clean the sand out of your vagina, you'd notice that he was speaking of people in general. There always exceptions to the rule.
I know how to buy a suit.
I can look EXTREMELY good in a wool suit, fashionable and nicely-weighted shirt, impeccable tie and appropriate leather shoes.
However, it doesn't fit in with the 1950s cubicle or the incredible cheapness you expect me to live with otherwise. And, if my job is expected to include crawling behind a dusty server rack, I'd rather not do it in a $1000 outfit, of which I'm somehow expected to own and pay for three.
Here's the deal. I'll dress like a professional when you PAY me like a professional, and give me a tastefully decorated office with a DOOR like a professional. But if you're going to treat me like a highly paid peon I'll stick to dressing like a peon (albeit a nicely paid one) and treat it as a perk of the job.
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
I've solved the most harry computer code problems in the shower. That 10-15 minutes in the morning right after I wake up is easily the most productive period in my day.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
"Your in Ohio. If you don't have a brewski (but you have mineral water) in your hand you might as well be wearing a dress."
Then again, most of my jobs have been in consulting aside from the current one. All the consulting places made me do business attire. Granted, for women, it really isn't too bad in my opinion. At least all my clothes are comfy. Now I work in health care and we can wear jeans on Friday (and who cares what is underneath, not like they can see most of the time), but the rest of the week is 'business casual'.
:|
My idea of bad style is the men who dress business casual, but can't pick out a pair of slacks long enough, so you see their socks and hairy legs.
This is just *not* a problem for the majority of IT workers. I'm a developer -- I have seen customers face-to-face on only infrequent occasions. If need be, I dress up for these occasions. For the other 99% of my time, it's nobody's damn business, save for the people who work with me, how I dress as long as I get my work done. At our office, T-shirts are the norm. It has absolutely *no* bearing on the quality of our work, and thus this whole thing is irrelevant. Ties and dress shirts will be disregarded by us as the meaningless things that they are.
ERROR 144 - REBOOT ?
The author of this post seems to be under the mistaken assumption that one must wear specific attire to do deskwork.
I, for one, have done such work entirely naked, and my performance was not noticeably affected even when compared against my performance while doing the same work in a tuxedo.
Why, then, is any "catching up" on wardrobe required, as the author implies?
You can run but you can't hide, except, apparently, along the Afghan-Pakistani border.
Pay me $5000 more and I'll dress better. Often times IT people have families, etc and they can't afford really nice suits and such. Dry cleaning, laundering, etc is expensive folks - don't give me the usual BS "Oh I know someone that is making $30K (US) that has to wear a suit."
BFD
I haven't gotten a cost of living wage increase in 2.5 years. If you want me to buy better clothes, etc. I will - just pay me more so I can afford to do so. 50 weeks of laundering @ $20 per load comes out to about $1000 per year. Buying nice clothes means taking time out of my busy schedule to find stuff that fits me. Or spending time on ebay and then buying clothes and then having a tailor make alterations ($$) so that the clothes look good on me.
$5K more and i'll wear khaki pants and blue shirts every day for the rest of the year.
In my opinion, dressing up is part of playing politics like brown nosing or sucking up to management. Most of us IT people don't care for corporate politics including me. All we care about is not only being treated decently but also getting the job done.
In my job, I am a Unix Sys Admin and I do various jobs such as move equiupment, lay cable. In my opinion, I don't get paid enough to constantly have to buy nice clothes because they get destroyed in performance of my duties. In the last several jobs, I have worn jeans to work Monday to Friday contrary to the dress code that requires dressy clothes. In all instances except a couple of times, people including management didn't mind. They were happy that the job got done.
Geeks tend to have trouble adjusting to social norms? They tend to prefer comfort to fitting in? I am SHOCKED! Slashdot, I was worried that you wouldn't be able to continue to provide insightful news and social commentary after John Katz left. I'm glad to see I was so wrong.
Everything will be taken away from you.
I consider it a sense of pride that I can work for a fortune 500 company in jeans and sneakers, and when I walk to the bathroom there're people wearing shorts next to people wearing suits. 12 years of Catholic school taught me that anyone imposing fashion on the workplace will soon be trying to steal my red stapler and make me write TPS reports.
No, I will not work for your startup
Sure its costly. The cost is greater than 0. Until my work starts to give me a clothing allowance, its costing me money.
Its not that I don't understand. Its that I don't give a fuck. If people's attitudes twoards me are effected by something as silly as how I dress, then thats their loss. I'm not about to change to fit their expectations better. If its a point of contention where it would cost me a job, well then I'm sure I'd be happier elsewhere anyway.
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
where can i purchase this "smart clothes" you speak of?
Maybe geeks are poorly dressed in part because they have a lack of respect for people who would use a ridiculous word like "mindshare" instead of "idea" (incorrectly, as it turns out). Then again, with a word like mindshare, you have to expect it'd rent itself out to anyone with enough cash.
~ Leilah
I bet you have an MCSE too.
Walked in with the marketing man (completely suited, of course). I'm in a ripped T-shirt, jeans and trainers. Go up to the board room - 8 executives and one of them (not the MD) said something sotto voce to his neighbour "look what it's come to, the people we're hiring".
:-)
:-)
I sat up a little (ok, I was slouching), and stared at him, said "I'm paid for technical excellence, not sartorial elegance". I *really* enjoyed that - right on cue, "heavy" measured voice, and eye-contact all the way. Ok, so I was immature, but by [insert random deity] it was fun
The MD bursts out laughing. We got the contract, and they were still excellent clients when I left the company to start my own. As far as I know, they're still good clients
Simon
Physicists get Hadrons!
So what?
I will wear what I like and what I feel comfortable in. Sitting in front of a computer screen for the whole day, every day, should not require stiff itchy shirts and pants. Screw that!
Meh.
This is completely off topic, but the comment on washing instructions for clothes made me think of it, and I had to share. Quite a few years ago I bought shirt. One day, for whatever reason, I actually decided to read the care instructions on the label in the back. I was quite humored to read, "For best results: wash in cold water separately, hang dry and iron with warm iron. For not so good results: drag behind car through puddles, blow-dry on roof rack."
In-the-middle-of-writing-this BONUS: If anyone cares, I decided to try and find the brand of shirt that had that label. It was HEET. The Internet freakin' rules.
Me
Maybe you're not as "smartly-dressed" as you'd like to think =P
Well, I have known crooks in khakis- some, literally incarcerated- so I didn't want you to get hoodwinked ;) I have to agree that management is more likely to want to dress better because they have less substantial actual skills, but a skilled person that also dresses and presents well is a pretty formidable figure. I think as geeks we dismiss that too often.
The boss gets to pick some stupid thing and force it on the plebs. He wins, and feels like a stallion when he does his wife at night.
There's nothing more to it. An "I win, you lose" put down, to puff up an empty shirt.
i like to wear khaki slacks & spotless/new plain white T-shirt & loafers in the summer, and Roundhouse brand overalls & khaki longsleeve shirt & leather boots in the cold winter.
Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
Authority is most often NOT RESPECTABLE, because it is clueless. Developping being all about being clueful, it's no wonder authority gets no respect.
No wonder your company makes crappy products!!! And 50 years later, you'll still be searching. So, I guess you do not think that professionalism is making bug-free products that works, and respect is not gobbling your customer's money in return for fluff.You'll definitely be one of the first to be put against the wall!!!!
b) "Tech" workers tend to be the one group within an organization that doesn't have to make up reasons why their jobs exist.
Example of other groups making up work so they have a job:
Marketing = I need to dress nice in order to confuse potential buyers by my "flashy" style in order to put them in subdued state in which they will be stupid enough to buy our over priced product.
Human Resources = I need to have you fill out all this paper work so that we can review it and then give our office assistants something to-do by filing said paper work
Management = I need to make illogical business decisions that create loads of work for those down the hierarchy. Then when my "minions" eventually figure it out and simplify the whole process, I can take credit for it as my whole idea to begin with.
[sarcasm] Oh! So soooory we aren't dressed up like those effeminate sissies in the Ambercrombie and Finch catalog! Atleast we don't show up to work looking like some rundown Gap, Old Navy, or Tommy Pullmyfinger Village People groupie!. [/sarcasm]
Where's Pauley Perrette when you need her?
The Rapture is NOT an exit strategy.
The CEO can kiss my ass and the dumb ass secretary he is banging can kiss my ass too. If the clients don't like it they can take turns kissing my ass after the CEO and his whore are finished. Jesus, you zombies don't realize that essentially a coporate entity is dictating what you wear!! That is exactly the problem with corporatism. Instead of focusing on the business and getting things done more effectively, HR dildos are generating memos about violations of business casual policy. I would sooner scrub fucking toilets than go back into a coporate environment that has a stupid ass dress code. It's an attempt to strip away individualism. How much is yours worth? How much money does it take to pimp yourself out so you can feed your stupid ass kids, keep them in Tommy Hilfiger clothes, and make sure they have a steady stream of PS 2 games to numb their minds? No wonder corporations are such shit holes these days. All about style and no substance. Ok I'll shut up now so you all can tell me what a loser I am.
I have actually gotten a "pay to stay" bonus simply by showing up for work unexpectedly dressed in a suit. My manager made a couple of comments wondering if I was out interviewing at other shops, and I just sort of half-jokingly went along with it and gave some vague answer that yes, maybe I was out interviewing. Actually, I think my exact response was "I can neither confirm nor deny."
A week later HIS boss called me into a conference room, and pulled out a contract for me to sign. Stay for 6 months, get a $10k bonus.
And the reason for the suit? I woke up that morning to find that my goddamned cat had pissed all over my clean work clothes during the night, so that old suit was all I had to throw on for work.
Tell you what. I'll start wearing ties (and I can actually pull it off pretty well, when required), when I stop having to crawl around in the raised floor of our data center.
No attractive girls at work.
(I know I've seen an actual scientific study to back this up, but Google didn't cooperate)
007: "Who are you?"
Pussy: "My name is Pussy Galore."
007: "I must be dreaming..."
I have to find a tee-shirt with this on it.
"Ok I'll shut up now so you all can tell me what a loser I am."
Why bother, when you did such an eloquent job of doing it yourself?
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
For example, today I'm wearing tan pants -- don't buy Dockers; they're made from cheap fabric, they're uncomfortable, and they don't look as good as you think they do -- a white button-down shirt and a sweater over that. I'm in Iowa, so the sweater is both functional and stylish.
So how about some advice? I like to think that I dress well, and people around me reinforce that idea. First, buy things like pants, shirts and sweaters in solid colors. They're easy to find and are always in style. Also, invest in quality clothes. Things made from comfortable cotton fabrics hold up well and are also much more comfortable. Fit matters. Too small is uncomfortable, but so is too big. You have to try on every article of clothing you buy (except for undies and socks, of course). Even different shirts and pants from the same store will fit differently. You're never "a medium" or "a large". You are whatever size fits you for a partciular garment. And unless they just didn't have the right size at the store, never order anything online. Always try it on first in a real store.
This next bit of advice cannot be overemphasized: belts and shoes must match. Don't worry, though. You only need one pair of black shoes and a matching belt and a pair of brown shoes and matching belt. It's little details like this that make you look much more "put together." Never (ever) wear white socks to work. Just don't do it. Black or navy socks go well with black shoes, and brown and tan socks go well with brown shoes. Again, quality counts, so buy good socks that will give you some cushion. They'll also last many more washes than cheap socks.
Also, black tennis shoes do not count as black shoes. The same goes for brown hiking-style shoes. Yes, they're comfortable, but they look like hell. If your "formal" shoes aren't comfortable, then they either don't fit right or are made of crappy materials. Good work shoes are oxford-style. They may have laces or they may not. They do not have Velcro. Ever. They're not "boat shoes" or loafers or any such thing. Invest in a few good pairs of shoes; they'll last you much longer and be much more comfortable. Also, have a salesperson actually fit you at the store for every pair of shoes you buy. Every shoe is a little bit differently sized, so it's worth the extra ten minutes of so to really make sure it fits. Don't count on really uncomfortable shoes to "break in"; if they're not "pretty comfortable" at the store, then they won't ever be really comfortable.
Finally, it's well worth it to choose clothes that you can "mix and match". That's why I say start with solids. Always have a clean white shirt in your closet; even if every other article of clothing you own is dirty, you can wear white with whatever you have.
This sounds like a lot of preachy advice, but honestly, following these little tips will make you look better, feel better, and generally make your life easier and more pleasant between the time you wake up and the time you come home from work.
If it's not one thing it's your mother.
Some of the richest people in the world doesn't dress up real nice. Why should their employees?
Steve Job's signature attire of black turttleneck and jeans.
Jeffrey Bezos's dark jackets, simple blue shirts, and khakis. Jeffrey is ceo of Amazon.com.
Larry Ellison's similar look to Steve Jobs. He likes to wear black mock turtlenecks too but with a nice jacket over it.
(Referrence: Forbe's 2002 Article, Uniform Billionaires)
I guess key thing is aim to make yourself presentable. No Jeans with starbucks coffee stained tshirts. New pair of jeans, tucked in collared poloshirt, and semi-dress shoes is good start.
\
No one objected in me working in flashy spandex. The exercise gives me fantastic legs which makes me look great in the spandex. And the girls especially liked to look at my package whenever I showed up around them. The way they blushed was memorable!
Funniest thing that it always embarrassed the bunch of gays in the design department - they would not dare look at me, yet they had the look that killed; none of them would ever dare dress in flashy spandex at work. I just can imagine the gossip whenever I walked out of there...
There was one of them who was annoying with always the same kind of problem. One day, I decided to tackle him right-on by showing him exactly how to fix the most recurrent form of problems. As I had planned to do this for several days, I decided to do it on the day I was wearing my fluorescent green bike shorts (no I have no shame at all - spandex is my way to say "FUCK-YOU VERY MUCH" to the kind of people who object to it). I sat on a desk next to his, and I was careful to spread my legs to make my package most visible as I explained him for 20-25 minutes how to do it.
It was hilarious to look at him trying to concentrate on his computer, all the while wanting to have a good look at my package. I started this as the guy came back early from his lunch, so whenever the others walked-back in, they were wondering what the hell was going on, and one of them who kept wearing his sunglasses was obviously watching my package while pretending he was working on his computer...
My previous .bomb crook bosses were graying men in Hawaiian shirts, flew their own planes, and was usually not in the office. Beware of those.
Offenders. The word selection cracks me up already. Just another campaign by the fashion industry to target those who don't waste thousands of dollars on their crap.
When I came over to the US for my job, British Air lost my luggage (and my clothes). I went to work wearing a suit (yeah, matching coat and trousers, shirt with buttons, black shoes etc that my family had persuaded me to wear on the trip) for the week. Reportedly, my boss had asked a colleague "Does he know how to program?"
Clothing has no impact on programming except as a potential detriment, uncomfortable cloths create more distractions. Given the high rate of autism/Asperger's in the computer field, sensitivity to clothing discomforts is going to be more common than other industries.
To be comfortable I need to either be wearing light cotton, or I need to be wearing leather. The mid way between the two is simply uncomfortable and itchy. If I'm going to feel something on my neck its certainly not going to be a neck tie. Now a leather slave collar, thats a bit more fun, money can't make up for discomfort, but thinking about the good hot nasty sex your going to have when your leather Daddy gets you in his clutchs next and has his filthy nasty way with you, thats a whole different story.
But going to work ragingly horny, and with a starry far away look in your eyes probably would be frowned upon "Why are you so distracted" "Telling you would constitute sexual harrassment".
Keep in mind you are working in a community of people from different backgrounds.
This mean it is part of your job to be approachable by others without them feeling uncomfortable.
You shouldn't need to wear a suit, but wearing cut offs and a tee shirt that says "Fruit Fucker" is inappropriette as well.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I have gone 9 years of dressing casually at work. I dress like a complete bum when I get home (sleeveless shirts, knit shorts and flip flops, anyone). I am also 6'5 at 275lbs so buying clothes is real fun.
I get to a new job and the dress code is no different. I am the only SysAdmin but I work with other coders. My boss dresses snazzy most of the time but his boss dresses in cotton button-down shirts, jeans and cowboy boots.
For the first time in 9 years, I LOVE coming to work. You know what? I am thinking about not dressing casually but instead in slacks, button up shirt and nice shoes. I am feeling good so why the hell not.
Sure I occasionally build and rack a server and might have to do some minor wiring but those are few and far between. I am so grateful and excited to be here, I might just upgrade my wardrobe while I am at it.
ChozSun
ChozSun.com
I've seen a number of articles to this effect lately. (anyone remember this?) I wonder if this is a case of PR at it again
Clearly the time I would spend putting on a tie and combing my hair in the morning could be better spent writing code. Unfortunately, it usually gets spent making disapproving comments on Bugzilla.
Actual line from our standup meetings: "We'll have customers in the office tomorrow, so be sure to wear a clean shirt."
Ceci n'est pas une signature.
Marketter 1: Damn geeks, we just can't seem to break that demographic...they make massive salaries (in australia, yes) but we just can't get them to waste it all on suits, new shirts and hair care products...they invest it instead. We need to figure out a way to get them to spend more!
Intern: Maybe we can get their bosses to make them?
Marketter 1: That's brilliant...give that man a raise! Who do we know at SMH.com.au?
I make a point of wearinging plain, colored pocket tshirts, almost always avoiding any that have distracting text/graphics. My jeans are not heavily frayed or bleached, super-baggy or anything like that. I feel I have been fairly good about making my dress style "work friendly" compared to some of the people in the more [ahem]... colorful departments. I wear tshirts to work because my workplace is too warm usually. Collared shirts make me get overheated. In the summer I attributed this to management being stingy with the A/C, but now it's going into winter and it's still too hot. It only effects this region of the building, too. If you walk back into the rear or towards the other side it cools off. So there is some sort of thermostat issue.
Furthermore, I see no reason to wear anything else. I work on the phone. I perform the same whether I wear a collared shirt and tie or tshirt and jeans. Actully, I perform better if I can dress down this way as I am:
I work as an outsourcer, so I also make less money than most people in my field. I don't walk around the streets dressed up the same way I do at work, so the type of clothing management may want me to wear would get very little use outside my job. Why should I have to pay for a separate wardrobe to wear for a job where nobody sees me? Plus, there's the extra laundry from wearing two sets of clothes every day.
I say, get off the high horse and quit trying to make all your employees look like little versions of you when there is no reason to. It seems more like an exercise in "how much can I run these people's lives".
becasue it means you will be over your childish insecurities and be more confident in who you are, instead of hiding behind your 'I'm better then that and besides it doesn't matter anyways because I like to be stagnant" attitude.
OTOH, I don't give a shit either, because I get paid a lot of money when people like you finaly push too much and get the can, Or aren't taken seriously so I get to sell the company products you could write because no one take you seriously. So please, be a slob I want to upgrade my boat.
One comment I haven't seen yet...
:D )
Why SHOULDN'T I wear comfortable, doesn't-show-all-the-crap-I-find-under-your-desk wear? I mean - I have nice clothes like the next guy - even 5-6 suits when I was a traveling consultant. However, why should I pay the mega $$$ to get my pants and shirts dry-cleaned when I'm just going to get them FILTHY crawling under the desks because the lazy #$%#^## maids don't VACUUM under the desks!!!??? Add to that the inevitable dirt from opening a case (you may need a hermetically sealed anti-chemical-weapon suit for some of those darn things!!!) or digging around the IT storeroom and yeah - sorry, I wear jeans.
( I guess I just wore out my "-" key too
"I don't care what you look like, your coworkers don't care what you look like, but some of my collabarators will care when they come to visit. I need them more than I need you."
I want the above as a poster. Geeks are so full of themselves sometimes (a poster above saying "I can get another job, and I don't need the money"). If the clothes really bother you that much, either get a job were people don't have to look at you (hopefully one that can't be outsourced), or work with your boss on a compromise.
"Even if the people you work with and around every day know you're good at your job, in the end that isn't enough. Clients, collabarators, customers, and anyone else from a different work envrioment will take your lack of due care for you appearance and apply it to the entire workplace."
In other words, if he doesn't care, why should I?
"They pay you, not the other way around."
One has to wonder if any of these "I don't cares" have ever ran a business, and if they did, did they care how their employees and themselves looked to the outside world?
You know who's really wearing spiffy clothes these days?
* Parking Attendants
* The Doorman
* Waiters / Waitresses
* Bartenders
* Money Managers
If I make a lot of money, I want to wear an old skool suit, like 19th century style, with a vest, and if I can pull it off, an eaton collar... and a cool pocketwatch.
Not to look cool or anything; just because I like the feeling of that period, and I feel we've lost something by abandoning our cultural costumes....
many of the same people making those decesions about purchasing software/services will judge you by your dress.
If the MD had to be called away before the meeting, You probably wouldn't have gotten the gig.
The fact that you did a good job is pointless if you never get the chance to show them.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Call centre workers dress sense is horrible - obviously because they never see the customers, they can get away with it.
...
IT help desk workers, being geeks, take this to the nth degree.
I have a friend who would wear shoes with mismatched shoelaces, ripped jeans, torn t shirts, a t shirt with "Loser" scrawled on it in texta, unkempt hair, thongs, you name it. The company introduced a dress code just to stop him.
Of course, since he got a chick, he's toned it down some
I am not a lawyer but my sister is, so don't mess with me
Quite honestly, I'm with everyone else here on this. [Of course, this is slash-dot.]
.. VERY nervous.
.. made sure to say 'Hi' to me, and [bluntly] I had a lot more 'package glances' from co-workers. Maybe I just look 'nicer' in an expensive suit (who doesn't ?!) but I think, in a professional environment where you interact with outside departments who *NEED* to dress nicely to deal with clients - it can help them feel more comfortable. Job advancement is mainly based on other people's perception of how you do your job. I've seen *AWESOME* coders get shafted again and again, but jr. guys who know how to play the game - get given better projects, raised, and recognition.
.. i mean .. 'look at them'.
:)
Dress doesn't matter in IT.
Several jobs ago, I was a sales-man. Selling toy soldiers. I wore suits, but when you were selling $10-$20k of product to a small independant retailer, you needed to make an impression.
I then worked for a cable giant, and was told to wear kakhi's and a polo to work. I did, there were a *LOT* of cute girls in that office, seemed easy to comply - especially with lunch dates in mind.
I left that job to go work for another fortune 500, where Jeans were expresly forbidden. I wore jeans every day. Once a director asked me [infront of a vp, and a department head] why i was allowed to wear jeans. This man, ironcally - the head of it/ecommerce, and 2 years later, my boss - was told by the VP of marketing : "Oh, thats cause he is one of those programmers, who wants to do all that math in a tie ?"
The two or three times I pulled an armani out of the closet (remember, i was in sales!) and wore them to work, I made people VERY
That being said, in a fortune 500 environment, I noticed that on the days I wore a $1500 suit, people stepped out of my way
Now I am the V.P. of IT at a smaller company, and all upper management actually tells me all the time to 'dress edgy' when I ask if I should wear a suit.
In the small co. / startup / under 50 million a year industry. Venture Caps *LIKE* to see the crazy IT guys, it provides them with an oddly inverted feeling of comfort - NO ONE who dresses like that could be hired by such a small company if they were not REALLY good at their job
Like it or not, we actually *HAVE* fostered the belief that good programmers really *don't* wear suits. And the tighter we hold on to that conviction, the more truth it gains
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
'Cuz man, like regular expressions expect the best. 'specially them posix character classes.
and then every once and a while i gotta get down and crawl my ass under some desk, find some damn cable or somethin. you gotta look good for that shit.
I think you've got something to hide.
No you're just a home.
There's this new invention. It's called coveralls. You wear them over your "good" clothes.
When I first saw this article i was like... who is this person to talk about what I wear and that t-shirts and jeans can't be fashionable? If wearing dress shirts and slacks is fashion, count me OUT! a suit / dress shirt would actually be more along the lines of following existing business clothing trends and displaying no style whatsoever as this person suggests.
I dress at work like I dress when I'm not at work. I am just not a suit and slacks kind of guy I guess. Why would I pay to maintain a second set of clothing that I couldn't wait to take off as soon as I hit the house? No, thanks! I'd rather keep one set of clothing new / fresh and flex that style to the fullest instead of having two half ass wardrobes and not even enjoying wearing the second half. It doesn't make business sense.
Now if a corporation I worked for wanted me to dress a certain way (which in a way is a type of uniform), they could provide me a seperate clothing allowance and cover maintenance of the apparal they are making me wear. I'm thinking along the lines of the clothing allowance given to military personnell every year for them to purchase BDU's and anything else that might have developed some wear.
Might this person work for a clothing designer?
http://www.awwsheezy.com
I work in Bondi Junction, 8kms from the Sydney CBD. I call it "Little Hollywood". If you take a walk around the mall at lunchtime you will understand. The Fashionista abound. "Look at moi, Kimmy! Look at moi."
Mongrel News all the news that fits and froths
Three things:
1. L
2. O
3. L
I'm three hours north of you, in Vancouver. (The real one, not the little wannabe in Oregon.) It doesn't get cold here. Not even close. When the temperature falls below freezing, and we get our annual 1/2 inch of snow, the city nearly shuts down in total panic.
I grew up where it is actually cold; not Minnesota, where it merely gets mildly chilly, but northern Manitoba, where on a cold day exposed skin freezes on contact with the outside air. -55 deg C with a 40 knot north wind is something you notice as you run from your house to your car. And if there's no wind, you walk very slowly to your car to avoid frostbite from the realtive wind chill factor you create when you walk.
All of those electrical outlets in the parking lots? No, we're not pioneers in electric car use; you need to plug in your car's block heater overnight or it will not start. Period. Hypothermia? Every kid gets a mild case at least once every winter.
If you live in Seattle, and you think it's cold, book a flight to Winnipeg. Then drive north for a day.
(/old-geezer weather rant)
Find environmentally and socially responsible products on http://buy-right.net
Re: coalition of the willing Case in point: Palau. I've been to Palau twice (and they are one of the so called "coalition of the willing"). Beautiful place, truly, and I hope to go back again within the year. It's home to about 20,000 people (twenty thousand, that's not a typo) But Palau, autonomous since 1994 is pretty much one of the US's UN bitches. They have no army of their own, not did they do anything but sign on as part of the "coalition of the willing" to appease the US. They are more typical of the "coalition" then atypical. Very few countries in the "coalition" provided anything of substance (boots on the ground, etc), and the "coalition" members have been dropping like flys. I don't even think Fox "News" refers to it anymore!? The "coalition of the willing" was never anything more then a sad joke.
Re: Cali and the rest of the fruits and nuts, Yea, Dems lost big in NJ and Virginia (oh shit, there's missing those details again, maybe you should tune into something OTHER then Fox "News" every now and then?). Besides, wait till next year...
Re: smart, learned and wise people support Bush, I don't care how smart you think your clergy is, you should think for yourself!
Re: Belgium, read the title =)
PS - Thanks for your opening tirade, and how it proves my point so very methodically!
"1984" was ment to be a warning, not a guidebook. You hear that Kim Jong-il!? BushCo?!
Muffy ....Buffy ....
...
...
Oh, what is Paris wearing , we can't get the routers to route
or the servers to serve with the latest Avante Garde' !!!!!
Yeah right, and plumbers and electricians are Johnny GQ too .
Mechanical Engineers working with metal cutting lathes look pristine too .
If fashion is the yardstick you measure your IT infrastructure by, then
I'd say your fate is predetermined .
Some good geek types dress well, but to most, appearances are just a charade .
Social camouflage
Based on appearances the days Einstein looked dishelved they would have relegated
him to the loser bracket as well . Sam Walton was not a snappy dresser, and he made Wal-mart .
The list goes on
Ex-MislTech
google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
If yer an E-6. Dress blues in the winter; dress whites in the summer, once in a great while. I wear the same denim you do, 'cept mine has stripes on the sleeves. And my boss wears khaki everything. Where I hang out "security" means razor wire around the building and Marines with automatic weapons. Hoorah!
it is also so that you are more inclined to take your job seriously and view yourself as a "professional"
Wow! Next time, give us a "pedantic psychobabble" warning before you say things like that!
How indescribably insulting to think that we take our jobs less seriously when wearing jeans! If that's the case, why doesn't every corporation require all employees to wear an Armani tux (cost not withstanding)?! I don't think any more clearly nor do I take my job more seriously with a polo shirt and khakis than I do in jeans an a T-shirt. Hell, I get more work done by putting on my headphones and listing to some classical CDs (or Christmas as the season approaches) than I do worrying about how professional I feel based on the way that the cotton on the outside of my flesh is designed.
On that particular note, however, I will say that based on my experience and others with whom I've spoken who have the same issue, the "professional" shirt and tie is actually very problematic to people, such as myself, who have very sensitive neck skin. Regardless of the shaving method used (including "none"), my neck will break out when the relatively stiff collar of a "shirt and tie" rubs against it throughout the day. So, in this case dressing "profiessionally" actually ends up being more distracting than not because of physical discomfort. Psychosomatic? Possibly. But regardless there is a negative effect due to "shirt and tie" requirements.
It's little wonder that you don't have the balls to post with a non-AC account.
The Overrated mod is for reversing inappropriate, positive mods, not for voicing disagreement with a post.
C'mon... these boys dress in shorts - year round in the snow belt - T-shirts with holes and paint stains, jeans with holes. Its disgusting... and their social skills match their dress.
Thus citing that well-known and incontrovertible law of business, "the larger an industry is, the dressier it must inevitably become." Yesterday I went to McDonald's and the person at the cash register was wearing a ballroom gown!
.. IT workers are found to be among the most frequent teleworkers.
Who cares what I wear when I'm working from home. Except when having videoconf meetings of course. (Anyone got a copy of that Sony Vaio where the teleworker's wife comes home while he's on video hookup?)
Many years back, my manager defended my not wearing a tie due to the hazards of leaning over a line printer in operation.. not that I ever worked on the line printers myself..
-- All your bass are below two Hz
We should all dress like this.
Just adding my 2cents to what numerous folks have already stated. Depending on what area of IT you work in, you can and will get pretty damn dirty. I've been doing a lot of hardware work lately and that stuff is nasty. I'm awestruck at some of the stuff that gets sucked up into workstations and servers.
IT isn't just coding.
Someone might have said this already (and I didn't see it because it was buried in the gigantic pile of posts), but perception is reality. If you look like you know what you're doing, people will assume you know what you're doing. Yes, it's much more comfortable to wear jeans and t-shirts every day, but if you're the only person in your office doing it, you're going to be out of place. A few answers to some of the remarks I've seen:
1. "I don't face customers."
That's BS, you face them every day. Your customers are the USERS. If you work in IT and don't understand that simple fact, then I say it's too bad you weren't one of the pieces of dead weight weeded out after the bubble burst.
2. "I don't give a f*** if they don't like what I wear."
Yes, and that's just the attitude to take come review time, when they say you don't comply with the dress code and you're obviously not a team player, so they're not going to give you a raise. Perhaps you could tell them to f*** off next time they ask you to fix a system, too. You might not like it, but you have to play by everyone else's rules.
3. "I should be able to be acknowledged for what I know, rather than how I look."
I would expect the Slashdot crowd to be smarter than this. Humans are just trained animals, and we still have animal parts to us. We like things that look better to us, for whatever reasons we have built up through time and experience. For example, most of you will immediately discount any solution that has a Microsoft logo on it. You see that logo and you know you won't like it. Most other folks are that way with people who go to work dressed in t-shirts, ripped jeans, and sandals.
4. "We crawl around in all sorts of places and do all sorts of dirty things. It doesn't make sense to wear nice clothes."
Well, no, but we also get paid a lot more to do what we do than most other folks we work with (come on, be honest). We can afford a few pairs of slacks and a few golf shirts to wear to work. I wear a golf shirt or button-up shirt with slacks every day, and I still crawl around under desks and go into tight closets. I CAN wash these clothes, after all.
Don't make excuses to dress sloppily, then wonder why you don't move up or make more money. If you're going to succeed, you have to play by the rules.
I work with embedded devices. I loves me some wool pants, but just try poking around electronics after strolling around a dry room. Bzzzzap.
Why does it matter what IT geeks wear? If they are not interacting with customers who cares? I consider the ability to come in, in shorts, t-shirt and a hat part of my compensation. Take that away and I want a raise and will probably be less productive since i'll have to take time in the morning to think about what fashion statement I want to make today.
Well this got every one hot and bothered, there is no fashion, say that again, "There is no fashion!". Folks, anthing that come out of Oz has to be taken as a margarita in need of salt (i'm a kiwi so i know!) so just let it go, LET IT GO! Wear what you want, six months goes by its back in fashion, problem not. Though...its about time we saw the power of techdoom give the fash(ism)iron a thing or two too worry about, there are at least 20 great ideas in here, now how do we get the VC's to read this? say it again...S L O W L Y...there is no fashion. period.
"corporate stylist, Melanie Moss, believes money should be no object when it comes to dressing well"
Someone who makes money by convincing people to spend money on clothing reckons they should spend it extravangantly. In other news, Osama bin Laden reckons everyone should be a Muslim, the KKK Grand Dragon reckons everyone should be white, George Bush reckons everyone should vote for him, and Joe Sixpack reckons all bitches should have 36-24-36 measurements and volunteer to wear a paper bag to bed if they don't rate at 9.5 on the honey scale.
I agree with KiloByte. As a general rule, in order to convince management types that you're worth a pay rise, you need to dress right. This is because the rest of society doesn't understand the inverse proportion law regarding dress sense versus competence. You dress "smart" because you realise that being smart isn't enough to get noticed and treated with respect. It's a camoflage tactic.
Yes, you can dress smart, comfortably and still be able to put the clothes in the washing machine on regular cycle and tumble dry them!
fu*k em
Last time I check...corporations and whatnot hired us for what we know (or anyone else), not how we look or dress. It's not like we are the guys standing up presenting shit at board meetings.
I came up with an analogy for anyone who wants to complain about clothing. It goes like this - We should have a car code rule. I mean as representives of the company we need to always show that we are in a position to be attained. Who wants to reach a position where no one thinks you make any money because you drive a car that is older than 5 years or less than 30K. Even worse that you cannot manage the huge amount of money we pay you.
We all know that when the client/potential customer sees you getting out of your car and into your building to sit at your cubicle all day that that might be the only chance they have of getting an impression of our company.
Oh, what do you mean the kind of car I have doesn't matter?
...IT employees/nerds/geeks/techies are more interested in *other* things with the money they earn/save - I see it all the time at my company.
b e-a-boasting-point-with-my-friends ..... ...but they can't be bothered to invest a hundred bucks in a decent jacket.
:) I'm the best dressed IT employee!
My fellow employees have no qualms dropping $2000+ on a Apple iMac G5 super-duper aluminium/titanium/platinum/uranium coated computer that-can-do-rocket-science-but-instead-will-just-
I'm not going to comment on whether it's necessary/unnecessary to dress nicely/well/expensive at work - *to each his own* *if the boss doesn't care, then oh well*
But hey - it works out for me
If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.
Can't find it online, but it's in the book "Travels in Hyperreality", a collection of miscellaneous essays. Postmodernism at its best, or worst, depending on your tastes. A brief sample ("fair use", I hope!):
or else those sensative items no worky!
If your neighbours roof is flying past your window, you know it's cyclone season.
...the worst is when they demand you wear a shirt they printed their logo on to work. It's not that that is really a big deal itself, but it is a very big deal when it is two sizes too small and they don't seem to have a problem with that.
Also, they're monkeys, who cares what they wear?
*looks down at his outfit* Sweats & a pocket T
I love working graveyard where all I have to do is show up and everyone is happy.
"Does your computer have IP on it?"
Do you do your job better because you get help from your smart clothes?
Aside from that, I completely agree, there is NO correlation between how someone dresses and the quality of hir work. This is total common sense but seems lost to some people.
Interestingly enough. In my experience as a Finance guy (and a nerd), I find that the IT guys who actually take the time to dress appropriately are also the guys who spend the time to put together a coherent, well organized presentation. What do these presentations do? These presentations explain to me exactly how I can cut costs in business units and what steps I can take to cut down on the amount of needless work IT needs to do. These ones are the most successful. Sometimes, explaining the message so I can understand it is way more important than working an extra 1/2 hour. Maybe thats why IT guys hate all the "suits"? Because they've mastered a skill set some nerds can't? After all, you can't believe that every single person who doesn't understand IT is a PHB, right?
As 'The IT guy,' you never know which day might find you climbing though a nasty crawlspace or with your head stuck in a 10-year-old machine. Good clothes will be a bit worse for the wear after a crawl through the ducts, and under desks. I find that gelled out hair works much the same as heatsinks in collecting stray dustbunnies between the tufts. Yes, I might look a little 'casual' in a swear shirt or T-shirt, but it's better than looking like I just walked though a duststorm.
Most of the business people wear business attire and I've heard rumbling about developers wearing jeans all the time. What does it matter what style wear as long as I wear nice clothes and smell good?
Contrary to popular belief, not every IT worker is a smelly slob with grungy clothes.
Guys, you don't all have to wear monkey suits but would it hurt to dress a little better and practice proper hygiene? I don't want to inhale the sink of others. Show a little respect for yourself. Don't do it for them but do it to show yourself some respect.
PS. A nice side effect is that you get the attention of the ladies.
Jesus was a compassionate social conservative who called individuals to sin no more.
The fashion industry spends millions in advertising to give folks the impression they should pay the exorbitant markups that fashionable clothes demand. Of course they are bitter that an entire industry virtually ignores fashion. If you spent thousands of dollars on clothes and hours of time to put yourself together in the morning wouldn't you be bitter too if you saw folks saunter into work in relative disarray with no negative repercussions?
42" waist, 27" inseam, 18 1/2" neck. Every pair of pants I buy has to be hemmed by at least 5-9", and they are still baggy.
:)
Long sleeve shirts look ridiculous - normally, the cuffs go beyond the tips of my fingers.
And I'm not particularly fat - just got that Scots build you normally see at the caber-toss...
So I sport a similar fashion plate - jeans and t-shirts. At least those look okay if they're ill-fitting.
Why can't I mod "-1 Idiot"?
Surely you're kidding. His waist is 32, his inseam is 36. Did you somehow reverse the numbers when you read his post?
Incidentally, I have the same problem as this guy: waist = 30, inseam = 34. It helps to know what brands fit, it takes the uncertainty out of buying online.
I've written a bit about this subject.
It seems like your work isn't being respected when people want to criticize you about how you dress and that's true.
Good bosses won't tell you how to dress and will accept your input. Even medium quality bosses will accept the clothing difference between a guy at a desk and a guy in the ceiling.
But we don't all get the luxury of good bosses. We get marketing managers who transfer to IT thinking the "multimedia database group" will look good on the resume and have no idea how to manage geeks or why they dress so weird.
So, to avoid being negatively judged based on appearance, and to gain the opportunity to be positively judged based on ability, it's necessary to let them see you dressed for "business". In this situation, dressing for work is not an exercise in fashion or comfort, but simply a matter of putting on a uniform for a few hours so that it's easier for the unenlightened to see you as part of the team.
Keep your subculture fashion for social occasions, and your career will benefit.
*#*#*#*#*#******* I love peanut butter sandwiches!
At the company I work at, which employs over 400 people at our location alone, if a non-manager/non-executive wears a tie or corporate-casual clothing, people think they're going to go interview somewhere that day.
Hunt your preferred prey at Aliens vs Predator MUD. Join the war at avpmud.com port 4000
This reporter works at a job where she has to be 'nicely' dressed all the time .. spends a bomb on her clothes but earns about half what I do. Must really burn that I earn twice what she does, but don't spend every cent I earn trying to cultivate a 'look that suits'.
What I want to complain about is these reporters who don't run out to get the latest equipment but instead waste all their money on clothes!
I look for clothes that don't have logos on them. Sometimes they are hard to find. Even Costco sells "Polo" (which I'll never buy that wash-once-shink-infinite crap again). Funny thing about clothes... the no-name stuff almost always lasts longer and is easier to care for than "name" clothes. Laundry = put it in the washer, put it in the dryer, if it doesn't survive you got ripped off. Don't give my any of that "delicate cycle", "tumble dry-low", or god forbid "dry clean only"!
There are certainly situations where you have to "play the game" and "dress right", but then you are edging close to "marketing" and "sales". You don't want to spend eternatity in damnnation just to look nice now, do you?
It would never occur to me to notice the difference between a $200 suit and a $1600 suit, and it is kind of scary to think there are people out there who do notice that rather than the "task at hand". Oh well, the world is full of all types of folks. [Ed. Note: why didn't he just say good-for-nothing assholes here?] I am not one of those. Sure, I will never make "rock star" money, but I do make a really good living programing. I own a house, I put my kids in private school, and am still on track for a decent retirement. But it most certainly is not because of how I dress. I earn my living because I deliver what I say I will, when I say I will it will be done (even if it means staying up late and NOT reading slashdot for days on end ;-)
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
Two, it is ironic that your language is biased, what with your not-so subtle association of collared shirts, khaki pants, & timberland boots with intelligence; if you're smartly dressed, then what are we?
All these quibbles over clothes is why I am a nudist.
I once worked at a game company. I asked on my first day what the dress code was. My supervisor said, "eh... you could show up naked and no one would care." He was right! Much to my astonishment, I saw someone walking down the hall with nothing but boxers on. He had been working out, and decided it would be easiest to just air-dry.
You can actually feel it gripping!
And you know who's worried about that? Customers? Their peers? Nope, I'll tell you: Middle Managers. PHB's coming round with their sole annual productive output: the office dress calandar, with the intricacy of the I Ching combined with the logic of Jabberwocky. And a new "team spirit" shirt every fricking week! This is the kind of stuff they'd rather spend money on than pay you.
Every time in my life (in tech jobs) that I was confronted about workplace attire, my response pretty much amounted to "F--- off.", as I blew past them on my way to putting out the next fire/ rescuing the next luser from their own stupidity/ meeting the next deadline. Never heard about it again for another six months. I always stuck to button-down shirts tucked into casual slacks, anyway. It's not like I was dressed like a Nirvana fan.
This rant brought to you by "People who make BOFH's look warm 'n' friendly".
The issue is that if you are a coder, who never sees a customer and you sit in your cube 60 hours a week working your ass off to make the companies product fantastic, it gets a bit annoying when some jerk-off tells you you can't wear jeans.
Then that is all you will ever be: the guy in the backroom who no one sees. If someone wants to be a backroom-hidden code monkey for the rest of their life, then good for them; that is respectable and they are doing their part to maintain that. However, I often find that these t-shirt-wearing backroom guys are the loudest complainers when promotion time comes and they are not promoted into management or a leadership position based on their "mad skillz."
Why promote the gentleman (or lady) who is nothing more than a good coder? You will lose your coder. Instead, you promote the guy who understands people, subconscious impressions (yes, partly based on dress), and who is outgoing. That is the guy who gets up in the morning, shaves, showers, combs his trimmed hair, and dresses for success, because you know that he is committed and that if a customer shows up unexpected, he is prepared. You don't dress like a backroom guy, waiting to be promoted to that big leather-chair office and the big bucks.
You should dress not for your current position, but dress for the position to which you aspire.
That little wannabe is in Washington...keep the 'Couv out of my state, thank you.
Now that Melanie Moss has told us how to dress, why shouldn't the Slashdot crowd go critique her website? Personally I think it's a slow loading slug of a site, loaded with JavaScript, and a huge pompous graphic on the home page with cloyingly cutesy handwriting on it in a lame attempt to get cozy. The pink color on the drop down menus is ugly and unproffessional. Somebody needs to clue her in on newspeak: "Menu of services" indeed! The section called "Corporate Entertaining" is really just a plug for her "Corporate Styling Service". "Corporate Presentations" takes you to the same place that the misnamed "Corporate Entertaning" does. And oh, by the way, in her "Menu of Services" she'll shop for you for $100/hour. Imagine that, paying a woman to shop! To top it off, she'll tell you what you should wear for $100/hour and buy gifts for $100/hour. Oddly enough in her picture she reminds me of Monica Lewinsky.
Ironic color scheme on an article about people being badly dressed.
Many people think the color scheme on this webpage makes one's eyeballs scream.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
IT workers are the best-dressed employees where I work, but then, I'm the only IT guy where I work.
Fuck it
So what the hell is so magical about a danmed stupid tie? I'm sorry but my training taught me less about fealty to the boss (unlike so so many business drones), and more about logical thinking (ok, craploads of it). Logically deduced, wearing a tie provides exactly two things to the user: 1. Cuts off the supply of oxygen to the lungs and 2. cuts off the supply of oxygenated blood to the brain. Conclusion: If you have a need for a functioning brain, remove the tie as a potent health risk and a detriment to the brain. If you have no such requirement for a functioning brain, please, put one on....better yet, put on two or three. Let all those around you know that you have no functioning brain (and don't want one). Just look at the pointy-haired people in charge. See the tie? My point made!
But don't you think it's a little off base for the company to ask you to work your butt off in your little cube and then bust your balls about your jeans?
No, my dear, they pay you to do this. When you're paying them, then perhaps you can remove the cubes and command that everyone wear jeans. But to be promoted into that sort of authority, you're probably going to have to suck it up and wear dress clothes to work for a while, get promoted, and then you can do whatever you like.
Until then, no one is asking you to do anything. They are paying you to do it. The alternative solution to this is to stop accepting their pay, and then do whatever you like.
Dressing appropriately not what your job description was on day one? Is your job still the same job you had day one? I hope not. Frankly, if not wearing jeans is the least they ask of me, and I get the added benefit of impressing a few people and getting even more money, then I am doing damn well.
I think I find wearing dress clothes (which are just as comfortable and the same price as jeans. I mean really) worth that beautiful salary I am paid to smile and say "yes sir," and the added benefit of being promoted to where I get to hear that for a change. Perhaps it isn't to you.
Selling your soul? Nah. You're just selling your ability to wear jeans to work.
And if you were smart, you asked for a pretty penny for this.
Oh please. I try to dress neatly, even if I'm not dressed super nicely for work. But I have to say, as a female Systems Engineer who tries to be fashionable... it's inevitable that if I'm trying to break in my newest pair of heels, or wearing an expensive sweater or blouse, I'll have to head to the data center and deal with something. I've torn blouses on racks, bled on nice clothes, and also, rack grease doesn't come out of clothes... they don't pay me enough for that.
Also, have you ever had to crawl under a desk for cabling... in a skirt?? Yeah, it sucks, though I'm sure that employee had a nice view that day.
IT workers rarely deal with customers, though I try to look decent when I know I'll be meeting with vendors.
It's just not entirely reasonable to ask anyone in IT to dress up. We think on our feet, deal with hardware on the fly, and deal with various environments.
At least I come to work clothed. Remember PHB-of-mine, it could always be worse. Besides, are you really going to shitcan me because of my dress? I am the only one who knows how it all works, knows how to keep it going, and willing to do it for such little money. :)
I recently started working for one of the companies that survived the .com bubble. I somehow managed to fall into a position on one of the most senior teams where the business uniform is t-shirts and jeans. Developers that were hired later on in the company's history wear business casual, but the most senior and respected developers come dressed down. I have a closet full of more typical business attire (business casual to 3 piece suit), but I choose to wear tshirt and jeans. I see it as emulating what I wish to become. I'm not crazy, I'd rather be associated by dress with the gurus.
And it has nothing to do with the "casual web culture of the '90s." I'm in my forties, my STEPFATHER was in IT back in the 1960s (although they called it DP or something back then), and he wore jeans and t-shirts to work!
:)
Now that I'm in my forties, I find I'm more tolerant of "business casual" than I was, say, in my twenties, but that's still about as "dressed up" as I'm willing to get.
"If you are so smart, then why are you dressed so stupidly?"
I am a Java programmer, and I wear suits to work (business casual environment) almost every day... because I want to wear suits. (Sometimes I wear sport jackets and wool trousers.) I enjoy wearing high-quality garments, looking handsome, and respecting others. I have an appreciation for sartorial elegance. I have almost always been this way, and will continue to dress this way until the day I die.
Why do 99% of IT workers dress so poorly? Is it poor upbringing? Bad "breeding"? I honestly don't understand. Dressing well is helping the world look a better place. It's showing respect for others. "The casual dress idea is the triumph of misguided egalitarianism. By playing to the desire to seem non-judgmental, the Slob has succeeded in forcing his tastes on the world at large... because to object to inappropriate dress would be judgmental." (Patrick07690, www.askandyaboutclothes.com/Forum)
One would think IT workers would dress better because they're intelligent people. (Obviously, that's not the case.) Think of it this way, geeks: dressing well is like finding the right tool for the right job. Remember the "Golden Hammer"? Well, T-shirts and jeans are like the golden hammer. They're not appropriate for all occasions, especially for work.
What about the craftsmanship that goes into a custom-made suit, or even just high-quality, ready-to-wear garments? As engineers/developers, you should appreciate such work. I'm not talking about Banana Republic, which is crap, by the way. I'm talking about your local custom tailor (mine is Paul Chang in Chicago at 180 N. LaSalle, who does everything by hand on the premises). Even if you're not into suits and sport jackets, at least go with the best khakis in the world: www.billskhakis.com If you don't learn anything from my post at all, then at least learn this: Buy clothes that fit, and wear clothes FOR the occasion (running shoes for running, jeans for manual labor, sweatshirts for the gym, suit & tie for dinner with a date, etc.).
Last effort to help you dorks understand: If you're into RTFM and reading guides, textbooks, tutorials, etc., then read Alan Flusser's books, especially "Dressing the Man." It's about timeless style and gentleman elegance--not the styles and fashions you see around you, day to day. I'm not talking about fashion, which is fleeting. I'm talking about the good stuff--wear it today, wear it twenty years from now, wear it for life. Now, that's freakin' good "engineering." For example, buy leather-soled, hand-made, leather shoes--not the rubber-soled, "Kenneth Cole" crap. (Come on! You guys have the money/salary for this stuff!) Well, what bout this book: "Men's Style: The Thinking Man's Guide to Dress"? And try the discussion forum I frequent: www.askandyaboutclothes.com/Forum. Some members are engineers/developers.
Most of you are intelligent and well-raised. Dress like it.
I totally hear where you're coming from. It sucks that people judge us by how we look. I know a super-talented, hard-working guy who rocks a mohawk and facial piercings. Unfortunately, due to our limited amount of time, getting judged based on appearance is kind of inevitable.
Think about it: Do you have time to really get to know every single person you meet? Of course not. This means you have to take shortcuts when you're deciding who to ask out, do business with, etc. If I'm meeting with a client to pitch a project, they have no idea who I am. If I show up in sweats, they get stuck assuming I'm a jackass, because they don't have time to investigate everyone. If I wear a nice shirt with a matching tie, they can tell themselves, "Well, he at least cares about his appearance. Hopefully that means he cares about his work too." They know it doesn't mean for certain I will do a good job, but it's at least a good sign that will help get my foot in the door so I can prove I do good work. Then, it matters less how I dress.
No, it's because you're proud of a "skill" that's stupid.
"... Help-desk staff were named as the worst ..." [1]
... Short ...` [2]
...
...` [5]
9 09640.html?oneclick=true
s ers/2005/09/dignity_is_dead.html
offenders, followed by those working in
technology start-ups, many of whom had
continued to wear T-shirts to work as a
consequence of the casual web culture
of the '90s.
`... More than 150 tech professionals
attended a corporate fashion show in
Sydney last night as organisers
officially dubbed the industry "the
worst dressed" in Australia.
sleeved shirts, man-made fibres and the
wrong coloured socks were some of the
most common fashion faux-pas cited by
corporate stylist, Melanie Moss, who
hosted the event.
I reflect on this dressed in running shorts, Oxford blue shirt, vendorware tee shirt & black socks at my terminal. It`s a constant bone of contention to my better half who says I should dress a bit smarter. But I digress. I read an article a couple of months ago that confirmed my choice of dress.
It was by Kathy Sierra [3], who managed snare a ringside seat at the internal Amazon developers conference featuring Paul Graham [4]. This the only reference to this talk I have found. It goes something like this.... dignity is deadly
`... When you evolve out of start-up
mode and start worrying about being
professional and dignified, you only
lose capabilities. You don't add
anything... you only take away. Dignity
is deadly.
Reference:
[1], [2] Louisa Horn, `IT workers dubbed ``worst dressed``:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/11/17/1132016
[Accessed Friday, 18 November 2005]
[3] Dignity is deadly, `Kathy Sierra comments on Paul Graham talk to Amazon developers why worring about clothes, dress & unessentials detracts from startup based companies.`:
http://headrush.typepad.com/creating_passionate_u
[Accessed Friday, 18 November 2005]
[4] Paul Graham, `Paul Grahams website`:
http://www.paulgraham.com/bio.html
[Accessed Friday, 18 November 2005]
[5] Dignity is deadly, Kathy Sierras take on Paul Grahams comments. Ibid.
peterrenshaw ~ Another Scrappy Startup
Exhibit A for why tech people have a bad reputation and low social status.
Humans are social animals by their very nature; when you display an obvious disregard for other people, it pisses them off on a very fundamental level.
And then they don't respect you, don't promote you, and don't fuck you.
Want to be a fully-functioning human being and be treated like one? Learn to pay attention to and respect (if not always adhere to) the social expectations of the people around you. Learn to present yourself as a functioning member of society, not as an ill-fitting reject. Learn the social protocols that let modern civilization function and keep us packed-together monkeys from going apeshit and killing each other.
That doesn't mean you have to be a drone. That doesn't mean you have to fit your square peg into their round hole. That doesn't mean you have to compromise yourself.
But that does mean you have to compromise your actions to mesh with society in order to do your part to keep this whole edifice working smoothly. When you decide you "don't give a shit" and that observing social graces is somebody else's problem, you force the rest of us to work harder to keep society functioning smoothly. And that pisses us off, so we treat you like shit. And will continue to do so as long as you continue to be a lazy, selfish asshole who can't dredge up enough respect for other people to help keep civil society running.
To get respect, give respect. It ain't hard.
The fashionistas wont get my t-shirt (jeans and sneakers too) before they try to pry it from my cold, dead hands!
this comment is provided "as is" and without any express or implied legibility or congruity [...]
If you make rules about what people should be wear, it shows you probably have very few good business ideas.
Radio on your iPod
Everybody knows that any non-manager who wears a suit at a tech company is incompetent. Even the smarter customers won't believe anything unless they hear it form somebody dressed in ratty jeans and an old shirt.
An engineer who ran for Congress. http://herbrobinson.us
We're people dammit, we have feelings!
...about this story is the number of people who use the words 'were' or 'where' when they mean 'wear'.
Maybe if they paid me enough I could wear clothing that isn't 3 years old.
I can agree that a grateful dead tshit and a f-you hat isnt the best workplace attire, but I know that at least I'm more productive when im comfotrable. The only dress code my company has is long pants and no open toe shoes(ie: no shorts and birkenstocks). This is with the understanding that if you are required to do something other than development, such as a meeting with customers or whoever, you dress appropriately for the occasion. What some assclown in the news room thinks isnt important when you're in front of a computer for 12 hours a debugging for a release.
Employers who think they should be able to tell their employees how to dress deserve the back-bone-less insecure incompetent little shits they will get. If you let somebody else decide what your wear you haven't made the step that others made when growing up from the time their parents told them.
And those insecure little shits are usually those who also have the nerve to complain about other people's clothes.
First off... the sales guys are usually comission which means the harder they work, the more they make. That is not the way it is with most jobs.
Secondly, marketing actually increases revenue, so again there is a need to "reward" the marketing department for helping to increase revenue, market share, etc.
Pure and simple IT is a utility to a company which does the dirty work, and although essential, is not involved in the growth of the company directly.
If you want to make more money, I suggest you go into sales, or start your own business. Other than being a high paid professional, doctor, attorney, etc, it is really the only way to build wealth in the US.
Libertas in infinitum
IT professionals, like me, certainly do not dress poorly at work. For example, http://www.spaceadmiral.com/pirateday/pirate2.jpg
Of course, the eyepatch that day was mostly for Talk Like a Pirate Day, but I think it looked professional.
All morning when i sit in my job's place my computer says to me. Trouser's color don't work with your eyes, please go home and change it.
When i am sitting during 8 o more hours in a office where nobody goes all say how nice is my clothes and smell of my shower gel.
Not around here. IT people are generally dressed in nicely looking clothes, but the sales people and managers, yuck. They dress in something that looks like a suit stolen from a funeral, often with the "rope" used to hang the dead guy still around their neck.
And that's even after it has been known for years that the tight "rope" around their neck closes off the blood supply to the brain - which of course explains why sales people and managers tend to be the most stupid people.
At least the problem tends to solve itself (although very slowly), when their lack of brain functions cause them to get the "rope" caught in the printer, thus hanging themselves. I guess that's when wearing a funeral suit to work shows it advantage.
Yes, it is true. Being a software devloper myself I really care about what I wear. I am always really pissed of when I see those "you get a free T-Shirt" taglines that go along with every con announced. This T-Shirt thing is just too American. And Think Geek doesn't help at all. Hey, those oversized, ugly labelled Ts were fashionable in the 80ies maybe. That is now 25 years ago. Who are you gonna impress with your "Java", "Oracle", "Apache Committer", "Google Summer Of Code", "SYN/ACK" Ts anyway? Non-IT guys won't understand. IT guys already know them. Girls don't care about the label but how you look in one of these. And let me tell you: everybody looks crap in them.
Why am I getting visions of Michael Jacksons jacket from the music video "Beat It"? :p
Life is not for the lazy.
lets declare jeans and a tee the new suit.
As long as my boss is the worst dressed person in the company i don't give a flying fuck if a customer on the phone is offended by what i wear whiel he can't even see me. Damn fashion nazi hippies.
The article is ruined by the accompanying picture. There is no way in hell that that guy is well-dressed.
You can dress comfortably and fashionably at the same time. A pair of Old Navy khakis, a pair of rockport walking shoes, and a decent button down shirt is not a difficult ensemble to throw together and it looks more stylish than jeans and a t-shirt.
I am by no means a dedicated follower of fashion, but Seattle definitely seems to be, how do I put this, on the trailing edge of the fashion curve. By lets say 15 years.
Heres the thing, if I go to work in a shirt and tie, I write programs, design solutions etc; if I go to work in a tshirt, I still write programs, design solutions etc. Its ME that does the work not the clothes!!!
The reason we are hearing about 'badly dressed IT people' is because the morons who write it have realised that IT workers tend be be a bit independant and dont appreciate being told what 'they should wear' and the attitude is one of 'I have to wear this so why shouldnt they'. I guess what it boils down to is that if you want to be a sheep and wear the same as everyone else, go stand in a fuckin field.
I have to work with a lot of over-dressed and over fragranced, to the point that being in the same room is a health hazzard. I dress in clean jeans, and sweater or button down shirt. T-shirts are only for the summer months... Where is the article about high maintenance people distracting others from the job to be done?
Sig Hansen?
Money isn't everything. And when you're too tired to spend it, it's worth even less.
Interestingly enough, I haven't found that situation to be a problem. Perhaps given a few years, my fast-paced lifestyle might begin to wear on me more, but so far I haven't found myself lacking the energy to do the things I would like. Yes, you are correct in guessing that the bulk of my income indeed sits in a bank, but I still buy the things I want and I maintain hobbies that are wholly separate of my job. I happen to have expensive hobbies, and that means working to support them, and saving my money. But that doesn't mean I don't buy new computers, cameras, cars, art supplies, etc. when something strikes my interest, and that certainly doesn't mean that I am too tired in the evenings to enjoy those things.
I respect that others do not share the same world views or the same concept of what makes a good job, and I indeed believe that my life has been fortunate enough that I have found a career path that allows me to be promoted into higher positions, be paid well for it, do something fun, really make a difference, and yet still be able to function when I return home in the evening (I also do not have to take my work home with me, a plus that it seems so many others are denied) but I am not going to kid anyone by saying that I didn't play a few games to get there. Most of these games came in dressing the part, shaking hands, and smiling politely to those in a position to help me achieve that kind of career; I put my time in by laying the foundation for this, planned since my early years in college (thanks to a good mentor), and am starting to now reap those benefits.
I grew up in a low income family and watched my father climb the corporate ladder from a low-income nightshift guy with a very dirty job (which had a lot of things he loved, but in which he was not completely satisfied) to co-owner of a successful company. And, now that he has "made it," he can enjoy the same aspects of what he enjoyed about his first job (tinkering with things, fixing things, etc.) in between dealing with customers and the such. No, not everyone wants to be in a customer-facing position, and for them they will be happy where they are and not have to "dress for the position to which they aspire," but I suppose that my unique situation has impressed upon me that, even with some trade-offs, you can end up with a decent income, more responsibility, and still do the things you love. One doesn't necessarily mean the end of the other. And yes, because I grew up in a situation where coupons allowed you to buy food and hand-me-downs were the rule, it has shaped my perceptions such that I am a bit money-driven in some respects, because finally being able to buy wants over needs was a refreshing change. But also note that I have volunteered my time and enjoyed my work doing so, so I find it also worth my time to do meaningful things without having to be paid for it. But if your impression of me is one that I find fun positions where I can be paid well very attractive, then you are correct. I won't pretend otherwise. Could I live a simple life out on a farm taking care of animals? Sure, I would likely enjoy that as well, as it is part of my unbringing, but right now I like the idea of enjoying my work and being able to put enough money away that I can retire to that sort of life without worry. At this rate, I will be able to retire early.
However, I understand that not everyone wants that sort of life. If they do, they play the games. If they don't, they happily stay where they are and become great employees. If they do want it but can't bring themselves put on a pair of dress slacks to get them there (the cheapest business investment a man can make), then they aren't ready. My comments were more addressed to the first and last of these. The first generally understands, and ends up where he wants to go. The gentleman in the second situation is happy, and in turn brings me profit. He is also the sort, it
I am pretty low in the corporate food chain. The reason I wear a suit is I have to tell people more senior than me how not to be stupid with their data and how to keep it secure. If I wear a suit senior people listen. If I came to work in my "cd /pub more beer" T-shirt I would spend my day arguing about what my grade and what right I have to tell them stuff instead of the content of my advice.
Inwardly I am laughing at them for being so shallow. But it makes my day easier. Personally I find it ammusing that in 2005 men are still wearing clothes developed in the 19th century.
The woman writing the article is clearly a narrow minded airhead.
For an amusing look at a similar story see The Register:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/25/otto_cloth es/
"Flags are bits of colored cloth that governments use first to shrink-wrap people's brains..."
Isn't it true that IT personel are just to smart to follow the silly commercials like "This summer it is a must to wear yellow". It is so silly. Just wear what you like.
Black longsleave "No, I will not wear your fashion".
Message from god, Please logoff, rebooting the Universe
IT Workers Most Depressed Employees.
I wonder if that is true too.
This 'fashion designer' is just trying to pedal garbage clothing. I'm in IT, have been for just over 10 years now. I've worked every shift in existence, have done the standard odd hour maintenance windows etc.....all the normal stuff for someone in IT that maintains production hardware, databases, etc. We HAVE to do this so that everything is ready for users during normal business hours. What burns me is to have just finished a midnight to 5:00am service window(if you have problems) only to have someone come in and mention something about your dress?! Com'on, give me a break! Oh, my favorite, watching 300 coworkers get canned then have the management staff say that we're going to increase moral by stepping up the dress code to hard bottom shoes and dress slacks. Talk about passive agressive. It is really sad when people spend more time worrying about the dress code of people in their non-customer contact departments than they do moving the company forward. It sucks to have busted your ass and then have someone make a side comment about seeing you in jeans...."oh my, see, that is why the company is failing". I've worn suit and tie, chinos, and finally the 'starndard jeans/shorts' in IT...ya know what, I feel better doing my work in more comfortable clothes.....oh, by the way, tell the dumbass who is more concerned about dress code than making the company profitable to crawl around in a suit while doing fiber drops. See how (s)he likes the bill for ruined dress clothes that are worthless for anything other than meetings and sitting on ones ass! PC, passive agressive BS. Nuff said.
"At this company, doing a good job, is a lot like peeing your pants in a dark suit. You get a warm fuzzy feeling, but nobody notices."
These things are heavily culturally determined.
I live and work as a free-lancer in Italy, where it is *normal* for me and *expected* by people in the corporations I work for that I wear button-collar shirts, a tie and -- very, very important in Italy -- polished, leather shoes. But I am of Dutch nationality. If I did the same thing in the Netherlands, I'd be looked upon as a pushy, haughty would-be yup. There, people would rather expect me to turn up in black-not-too-new-jeans, a polo shirt, and converse-style shoes. And when I did my own project at the university of Cairo, Egypt ? I went to work in khakis and a wide-open cotton shirt-with-long-sleeves. I don't know about Australia. But this shows that even within Europe there are huge differences, while in Egypt - if you don't want to be buggered about your dressing style - you need to be conformist. Up to a certain degree. I have heard from other people that Lebanon, for resident europeans, is even worse.
These were my 2 cents. Now does that make a sig ?
Religous speak to God. Insane are spoken to by God. When all shut up, one can finally hear Shostakovich in peace
So just out of the fear of me turning into one of those mfs, I don't ever put on suit in work. Period.
BTW, remember Office Space the movie? It had something that comes close to being topical:
Stan: We need to talk. Do you know what this is about?
Joanna: My, uh, flair.
Stan: Yeah. Or, uh, your lack thereof. I'm counting and I only see fifteen pieces. Let me ask you a question, Joanna.
Joanna: Umm-hmm.
Stan: What do you think of a person who only does the bare minimum?
Joanna: Huh. What do I think? Let me tell you what I think, Stan. If you want me to wear thirty-seven pieces of flair like your pretty boy Brian over there, then why don't you just make the minimum thirty-seven pieces of flair?
Stan: Well, I thought I remember you saying you wanted to express yourself.
Joanna: Yeah. Yeah. Y'know what? I do. I do want to express myself. Ok? And I don't need thirty-seven pieces of flair to do it. (gives him the finger) All right? There's my flair! And this is me expressing myself. (holds up her hand) There it is! I hate this job! I hate this goddamn job and I don't need it!! (She storms out.)
(cut&paste from http://www.thezeroboss.com/archives/000959.html)
Preserve old classics: copy your collection onto all hard drives.
Well, lets see. Having to crawl around under desks, behind dusty racks, behind and through walls for rewiring... I know - I'll wear a suite! Not.
On top of that, which IT worker (non-management - REAL IT workers) actually gets paid enough to buy clothes? I have a hard time affording lunch...
...and even worse when it became casual week.
Some more random thoughts:
That telecommuting was invented to actually shield the rest of the human race from the basement dwellers.
That all those sci fi pictures from yesterday depicting bright silvery shiny metallic clothes for this present (their future) may have been onto something. Which isn't bad if you base your ideas on Uma Thurman in Gattaca and not Logan's Run. Tin Foil All Over!
Discuss.
At least, at my company, that is why there are very few real requirements on how we dress. Jeans are fine. T-shirts that do not have writing or pictures are fine, and manufacturer logos seem to be an exception to that. There are plenty of people who still wear a polo or a dress-shirt sans tie, but unless the customer is coming in, there's not really any reason for the average code monkey at my company to dress up.
When the customer is coming in, people who will meet with them know it, and generally are in a little nicer attire.
I've heard that in the past, this company at one point required suits... all I can think is the discomfort with no really good reason for it. That, and wondering if that means I would have had to wear dresses all the time, and pondering the calluses I would get from the shoes.
IT can be a lot more than what you are pigeon holing it to be. The department including "software engineers", as you call yourself, is often as a whole called IT.
Anyway, who cares what IT people dress like if they are not the kind of IT people who deal with customers? Judging on appearances could land you a nice job in marketing though. Practice your ass kissing, it's probably your next "career path".
I am almost speechless at how incredibly overflowing with bullshit this entire article and everything surrounding it is.
Know why IT workers are the "worse dressed"? Because they're (generally) skilled people who actually do something, not walking bullshit spewing heads in pretty suits who just talk to people all day and think they're important to the functioning of anything.
Have fun with your meetings and trying really hard to impress each other, we'll be over here, you know, actually getting things done and whatnot.
Fsck, just what we need.
"The Corporate Eye for the Geeky Guy"... Just lovely...
Part Time Philosopher, Oft Times Romantic, Full Time Unix Geek
Our company policy recently changed from smart casual to business suits. Sorry, but to me a business suit is a uniform. McDonalds servers wear uniforms. School children wear uniforms. Why should I be treated like a child?
I resent the inference that by wearing a piece of cloth tied in a knot around my neck I will somehow be more professional and do a better job; hell, I can post to Slashdot while still wearing a tie - I'm doing it right now.
I can see no logical reason for business dress, and as a geek that lack of logic really pisses me off.
Our new CEO came to our office to introduce himself and actually spent ten minutes lecturing us on the importance of business dress. In one office, we apparently have staff tasked with reporting on colleagues with poor dress standards. I know it's completely screwed, and I should leave, but the pays OK and my actual job is quite interesting, so I put up with the bullshit.
Sigs are so 1990s. No way would I be seen dead with one.
Probably because they don't sell it at ThinkGeek.com :)
Prescott Stonewash Jeans: An all new sense of Up-Time.
Fractured Element
Noone will ever criticize your sense of fashion. You are automatically haute coture.
He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
If you are the center of your universe, then I guess it doesn't really make any difference.
However, there are a lot of people who are aware of the others around them, and aware that those others form perceptions based on a lot of silly things. Some of those things include your past work performance, but some of them include how you speak, how well you write, how you hold eye contact, the firmness of your hand shake, the style of your hair, what you wear, the cost of your accessories, the car you drive, your manners, your ability to communicate, and how you esteem others.
Most of the hard stuff to learn (technical aspects of the job, reading and writing well) isn't easy to assess. It takes a technically competent peer to appreciate them, and only in a review setting, and it costs that peer time and energy to appreciate it. On the other hand, nearly anyone appreciates the other stuff, and it's apparent without effort on the part of the observer.
These things are not "magic bullets", because one obviously deficent area always is noticed over the other passable (or even admirable) qualities. Still, it's honorable to not cripple your perception as seen by others. When it is a matter of changing dress, well, that is much easier to change than speaking ability, your skill on the job, or how well you treat others.
So yes, it is silly, but that dress shirt makes you a better person, and hence a better coder, in the eyes of someone who doesn't know good code from bad. Considering that a lot of corporate workers have business degrees, that might be a very good thing for your career.
Now if your the center of your own universe, then it doesn't matter what I wrote, or what others think. Just don't come griping when you dislike the consequences of not pandering to anyone.
In a sense, yes, I suppose I do. Personally, I feel a little more "professional" if I'm more smartly dressed, which I find helps me to focus on doing a professional job (and to stop feeling like I'm at work when I go home and change). YMMV; I'm certainly not arguing that everyone will feel this way.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
As funny as this is, I would really mod this Insightful.
Fractured Element
I discovered a Van Heusen outlet store in Kittery, Maine and for a $50 an outfit (Trousers and a Shirt) the ladies will be impressed as will your current employer.
0 06WREH/104-8222280-3082356?v=glance
Most of the cloths mix and match well. You could pick out a shirt, trousers and a tie blind-folded and you will still look better than waring jeans and a t-shirt.
The cloths look good most are wrinkle-free and/or stain resistant and the girls that work in the shops are hot.
Checkout amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00
On Friday throw on some jeans and a white button-down and go to the local pub for a beer. The chicks will dig you and if you play your cards right (by not talking about computers, porn, Magic The Gathering, D&D, or you cool bed-room in your parents garage) you might get laid.
I like-a do-the cha-cha.
article: "Help-desk staff were named as the worst offenders, followed by those working in technology start-ups, many of whom had continued to wear T-shirts to work as a consequence of the casual web culture of the '90s. 'The internet is now such a massive industry but people haven't caught up in terms of their dress'."
The 90's???? I was wearing T-shirts in the 70's. My boss wore denim overalls.
So who gets to choose what "well dressed" means this week ?
Personally I dress to please myself and I expect other people do likewise. And I simply don't give a fig whether you like what I'm wearing or not. If I told you that I didn't like your attire I'd expect you to tell me to "fuck off because it's none of your business". The only acceptable dress standards should be that your attire is clean and doesn't smell too strongly (and that should include reeking of fucking perfume too)
Since being taken over by an American company we keep getting this cort of crap at my workplace as they keep trying to force some ludicrous corporate clone image on us. But I (and my colleagues) simply tell them to shove it. In summer they said I couldn't wear shorts so I told them either you tell the ladies to come in in trousers only too, also allow me to wear a mini skirt (just like the ladies) or you can put that request in writing and we'll go to court. Suprisingly they stopped bothering me after that.
Sadly "how you look" seems to be the last bastion of acceptable discrimination. You can't discriminate on grounds of race, colour, sexual orientation, size etc. (all good things) yet some fat, bald, middle aged man who has no sense of style (nor ever had one in his youth) can tell everyoine else in the company to dress in the manner he finds acceptable. Bollocks.
People whould grow out of their 18th century "I know best, do as I say" outlook on the world. Regimentation breeds stagnation. There's a whole diverse world of people out there all with different ideas. Learn to listen. Learn to appreciate that diversity instead of trying to homogenise everything.
And if thine eye offends thee pluck it out.
Sky subscribers are morons. They pay to be advertised at !
Why is having good communication skills stupid?
"People skills" aren't a substitute for technical skills, but they're certainly valuable.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
You know, I like not having to shave every day. I like not having to keep my hair tapered, off the collar. I like not having to wear a tie. I like wearing jeans. I like being comfortable. I like not having to be a slave to corporate status like some other departments. I'm a geek. I'm a man. I eat meat, and I like it. Is it just me, or does this basically say that those in IT are in fact, normal? Hmmm...
"Short sleeved shirts, man-made fibres and the wrong coloured socks were some of the most common fashion faux-pas cited by corporate stylist, Melanie Moss, who hosted the event on Wednesday night."
Oh yeah? Here I was thinking that highlighter pens were for marking text in documents, but having RTFA I now realise that they're for colouring in that plain white business shirt for instant instant corporate success.
Thank you, Melanie; you're obviously full of chic.
I must agree with the numerous users here. "General IT" work could be a dirty job. From crawling underneath peoples desk, to fighting asbestos in the ceilings. Within the office, Jeans and a tshirt should be acceptable. (in our office a bio chem suit would be needed for old infrastruture). Our data center is not exactly "Dust Free" :)
Couple times a week i would get "A Client is coming, go shave and get changed"
As for the notion that IT professionals wear polyester high waters and pocket protectors is just whack.
Move along... nothing to see but us IT guys in Chem jump suits.
-- I Dont Deserve A Sig I Have Bad Karma
I work for an American firm which has an explicit dress policy. Thankfully it's not enforced locally by our British management as they have more sense. But the good bit is the list of "allowed" male upper body items includes "a vest" which when translated from American to English should have been written as "a waistcoat".
So if they ever start enforcing the policy they're goping to find a whole building full of people coming to work in a Rab C Nesbitt style. "But it's in the policy sir ?"
Priceless.
"Ms. Moss was the event's host. She's a "Corporate Stylist" -- corporate clothing is her business."
She better file for bankrupcy soon, then. That guy in the picture looks like he got hit by a truck carrying easter eggs. Only people in her own industry would wear that sh*t.
So really, here are options:
1) I can buy this expensive trendy stuff that will go "out of style" next month at which point I will have to my more expensive trendy stuff that will go "out of style" the month after that.
2) I can purchase normal clothes and use the rest of the money to buy a house or go on vacation. Sure, I'll look "untrendy" but so will I at some point in case #1.
Mr. Moss profession is nothing more than a perpetual motion machine powered by and creating bullsh*t.
Ok, I was going to agree that our industry isn't the best dressed, then I went and RTFA.. Did anyone NOT see the picture of the guy they consider to be dressed well? I don't know of ANY straight guy that would dress like that. Dressing like that just screams "flaming homosexual".. Not that there is anything wrong with that but...
Seriously, I stopped wear ties and long sleave shirts because I kept getting grease on the shirt and the tie kept getting in the way when loading computers into the rack. Face it, suit and tie is fine when you sit around in meeting and talk on the phone all day but when you WORK for a living, they get in the way.
I guess I'm a really strange one. Where I work (a library), everyone dresses very casual, except me. Most days I come in wearing dress pants, a nice shirt, and a tie. I guess I just like to look sharp.
Maybe it goes hand in hand with the fact that the IT people (industry) , including myself seem to be the worst paid for the amount of work we do.
Who would go and say something about the way that the geek should dress...
he works on his hands and knees setting up everybodies pc when they don't even know what a USB port is, develops all the front end and backend for your company's intranet and web servers, freezes inside the server room when the backups for the databases need to be re-configured and / or mirrored, and gets passed over for promotion every time the "new" bosses kid's friend
wants a job.
Start paying a little more money for the one who keeps your company alive.....whom in todays world your company can't live without...
start spending a little money to make HIS life a little easier instead of telling him to find ways of cutting back on software expenses
(u el cheapo u)....
and then you will see a little more dignity out of this man.
Trust me, I would rather wear my armani suits to the local water cooler and impress all the babes if i could only find the room in my closet for all the excessive suits I have lying around....(sheesh!)
Some people's kids....
L.A.
Airport security *loves* these!
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
Seems to me like this is another manifestation of the continuation of high school theory. It basically states that high school social dynamics never end. You see, these timid souls that spend the majority of their time in the books as opposed to developing social contacts never realize that appearances matter. Yes, there are some hybrids, but this large contingent of socially inept people who gravitiate towards IT will always give the IT worker who does understand social dynamics a bad name. So be it.
http://www.stockmarketgarden.com/
Is a form of ugliness so intolerable it must be changed every 6 months. I can't stand fashion. I dress nicely...i look good, professional and all, clean, well groomed. But i don't see the point of fashion.
My $0.02
You like your new Mac more than you like me, don't you, Dave? Dave? I asked...She said Yes.
What does it say about someones attitude if they are willing to buy something they don't like, that costs more than what they do and then wear it the majority of the time because its what people expect?
It *demonstrates* a willingness to do things the other person's way, to please them, rather than being the sort of person who engages in self-indulgent behaviour.
Because by dressing a certain way, you're demonstrating an openness to behave in a way that is expected by other people. If you dress in a self-indulgent manner, it doesn't affect your performance in theory, but in practice it *may* reflect a more self-centric attitude, and a lack of willingness to do what others want.
This doesn't always work that well (in theory it's possible to "cheat"; but in practice, if you're willing to compromise here, you're more likely to be the "right" type of person anyway).
Your inability to recognise this issue at all is simply geek shortsightedness and rationalisation of self-pleasing behaviour (rationalisation based on a surface view of human behaviour and its reduction to "logical" rules is one of the most tedious- and deluded- geek traits; although sometimes, let's face it, it's just intellectual brute force for self-justification).
Anyhow, I don't particularly like the corporate world myself; however, I don't resort to the above (phoney) techniques to kid myself that I'm somehow "rational", or to make myself appear better than others.
Why in the world do we seek and praise conformity ?
Because people conforming to some set of rules of behaviour (even if they are arbitrary) tend to work better together. I bet the Internet would work *great* if every computer on it implemented its own custom (and different) version of the TCP/IP rules because their owners happened to prefer that particular version themselves.
I have to be able to show off the reason for my sig somehow
My left arm is all scars and I consider that a valid excuse...
My hair is black with primary red and orange and yellow
My CIO cares a *Lot* about our company image, but that doesn't have to translate into no purple hair and no piercings. It just means that I have to wear a suit or blazer/tie and look good and professional all the time, incase clients or vendors or whoever come in.
Dressing well might not make people better coders or system administrators or IT managers, but first impressions mean a lot and you might not have an opportunity to talk to clients when they come into the office. The level of professionalism they see may determine whether or not they bring your company their business.
So, to the slackers: just suck it up and look *professional*
Hopefully you can keep the purple hair.
The thing about this is. . . Depending on the industry, IT workers rarely/never even see customers, or are in an area where customers can see them. Also, beyond janitorial staff, IT is probably one of the messiest jobs to be in. There isn't a day where on my hands a knees (please, no sexual innuendo implied) crawling around pulling floor tiles, cleaning server cases, lifting heavy servers into racks, etc. IT staff, in a position where they aren't ever face to face with customers should be allowed to dress slightly less than businessmen that are constantly conversing with customers.
YOU'RE WINNER !
Another lame blog
Actually most of the women i know care about what a guy knows to do and how his body looks like. Women don't care much what men are wearing. What most of the IT guys miss is some gym classes not fancy clothes.
Clothes are important just for other men especially for older since this is their only way to show that "they still have the move".
OH yeah! This, is a good idea!
You ever dress up for cold weather? The warmest way to dress is in multiple layers.
First I have on a layer nice dress clothes, then I put on a layer of coveralls over them.
I then proceed to crawl and work in all sorts of non air-conditioned spaces. Dropped ceilings, attics, and crawl spaces. Do you have any Idea how SOAKING wet with sweat every stitch of clothing I am wearing would be by lunch time? Do you have any idea what I would smell like by quitting time?
This has not been, is not, nor will ever be an option with me.
I know several engineers who delibrately dress like total slobs. Why? Because if they looks that bad no one's going to ask them to talk to a customer. This way they get more work done!
Genius is one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration, which is why engineers sometimes smell really bad.
There is a difference between knowing the path and walking it grasshopper.
Richard Chesler: Is that your blood?
Narrator [Smoking a cigarette]: Some of it, yeah.
Richard Chesler: Take the rest of the day off. Come back with some clean clothes.
The Rise and Fall of Online Community
...but I am single and colourblind, so my tie does probably not match my socks...
It's not that we haven't caught up. It's that other industrys haven't.
many of whom had continued to wear T-shirts to work as a consequence of the casual web culture of the '90s.
If I met a software developer who wasn't wearing extremely casual clothes, I would have trouble taking him seriously.
"We may have an opening for you at the poseur level."
How does it feel when you button the collor of your shirt? Is it comfortable or confining?
The way to wear a tie comfortably is to make sure your shirt collars are the right size. You should be able to get two or three fingers under the collar without difficulty, while it is buttoned. With a collar like this, your tie will fit snugly against the collar, but will not be choking you.
I felt the same way you do about suits and ties, until I went on a trip to Hong Kong and, on a lark, had a suit custom made for me. Suits that *actually fit right* are the last word in comfort - much more comfortable than jeans and a T-shirt, particularly if you want pockets.
-Graham
Some people thought I was the least careful about dress code at my team, as I'd ride my motorcycle to work and then put on the suit I had at the office waiting for me... That meant wearing dark grey trousers most days, so they'd look OK with 1 or 2 dark jackets I had at the office, in a rotation scheme :)
One day, some guy was caught off guard, and a client showed up on a friday, when he was in causal clothes and in need for a shave...
After that episode, the team manager was quick to suggest that people should consider having a backup tie and jacket at the office... Besides, you never know when some food accident will happen right in the middle of your shirt, just before the 2pm meeting, right?
Bazorg!
Close- but that's what the INSIDE looks like. The outside matches the colors of the zippers to the jacket (mine is pure black) or uses velcro for some pockets/wire channels/liquid channels (this jacket has a pocket for a Camelback and a channel for the tube).
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
With the exception of the sterotypical dot-com, every job I have had listed their dress as "business casual" and most employees have worn khakis and a button-up or polo shirt. Invariably, I try it for a few months, make my reputation by my work ethic, and slowly revert back to jeans and sneakers. Only once has a supervisor (actually, a program manager above my boss) made mention of the dress code. I told him, frankly, "I can be productive or I can attempt to look productive. I don't get paid enough to do both and we have more than enough people that are focused on their image." He stared at me for a second and said, "Fair enough."
I wouldn't recommend this strategy to everyone, but my work speaks for itself and I was in the enviable position of being able to quit my job and be employed elsewhere the next day. When interacting with clients that may not be intimately aware of your work ethic, professional first impressions are important, but I didn't interface with them and spent most of my day in my own office.
The reality, I think, is that some employees can perform their duties with little direction, but most employees still need structure to operate efficiently. A dress code, like a whiteboard full of employees' tasks or a timecard, is something that reminds the less-driven people that there are expectations of productivity.
In a sense, yes, I suppose I do. Personally, I feel a little more "professional" if I'm more smartly dressed, which I find helps me to focus on doing a professional job (and to stop feeling like I'm at work when I go home and change). YMMV; I'm certainly not arguing that everyone will feel this way.
That would be a down side for me- I get my best ideas about coding for work while I'm sleeping and/or in the shower after sleeping. I would actually do a WORSE job if I was being "professional" and separating home vs work. Not to mention the energy waste of having to wash twice as much clothing!
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
I believe that people who don't understand IT have lower IQs and don't deserve the positions that they are in at all. Cutting costs is a stupid thing to make IT judgements on- because for every cost you cut now, will come back in a few years at twice the price. Cutting business costs is what gave us the stupidity of offshore outsourcing.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
I haven't been through airport security with it yet- but boy, the courts sure hated it when I went to pay a speeding fine- they couldn't tell with the jumble of wires going through the x-ray machine what was in it, and apparently they had some problem with recording devices.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Where no matter what you wear, you look normal/professional compared to the students.
It works for me!
More seriously: I work in a server room, often on the floor every day. I wear jeans, and I've just trashed one pair up there and am doing a good number on two others. Dress pants would have turned into scrap long ago.
Slashdot Patriotism: We Support our Dupes!
I have to agree that management is more likely to want to dress better because they have less substantial actual skills, but a skilled person that also dresses and presents well is a pretty formidable figure. I think as geeks we dismiss that too often.
People who are formidiable don't get my business normally because I don't like to be intimidated. Buyer Beware is my watchword these days- after the crap pulled in the corporate and retail world in the last 10 years, it's pretty much a stupid idea to trust anybody anymore.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
M$ and Wal*Mart are both communist companies in disguise; but I'm an Orwellian Marxist, I believe in actually learning the lessons of the past...
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Well, if you keep exporting our f*cking jobs and keep lowering our pay while the cost of everything else rises, how the hell are we supposed to dress, Geeeeenius? At this rate, in 10 years, I'll be coming to work in a burlap potato sack with holes cut out for my arms to pass through, Wonder Bread bags on my feet, and a used McHairnet for a hat. Thank you so much your majesty for not having me strung up for not finding the email YOU deleted and for providing me $100 for my family's income. My three kids thank you and God for letting them have a slice of bread every two days. My point is, despite higher education, it's the managers' wallets that wind up fatter in the end. You say so yourselves, in order to make money, you have to spend a little first.
-- Game Developers: Stop porting badly-textured games from crappy console systems!
Are you going to emulate the spending pattern of old man Scrooge as well as his dress sense?
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Wow, now that was a little arrogant. Remember if the world was full of smart people then everything would work right, and we would have nothing to do!
Wow, now that was a little arrogant. Remember if the world was full of smart people then everything would work right, and we would have nothing to do!
Good- that's the way I like it. Automate whatever possible, and use your brain to realize what your place in the world is. Cost cutting is *always* stupid, because it cuts the buying potential of your customers. It's almost as stupid as investing in non-local businesses; 8 cents return for every dollar spent instead of 8 dollars return for every dollar spent is a pretty stupid system. I am arrogant about this- because if we don't get arrogant, the only other option is to capitulate to the stupidity.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
Is what exactly?
When was the last time your sysadmin brokered a $2mil deal with a client?
Issued a press release?
Went on business luncheons and schmoozed with potential clients?
If you want your IT personnel to wear business suits. etc. YOU fund the clothes, and also don't expect overtime, etc. and of course don't expect your IT people to go crawling under a desk, over ceilings, etc. to fix computer and network issues because doing so will ruin a $500 to $700 suit.
Want IT to be on call around the clock and do dirty work like crawling under desks and in closets, phone rooms, ceilings, etc? Then they WILL dress casual or they'll be giving their notice. The pay may be good, but it's not THAT good.
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
Why does it matter how you dress if you get the job done? I do not expect my mechanic to be in a business suit or even care if he's well groomed if he gets my car working and well maintained quickly and at a decent price. Focus on the results, not the suit.
Or better yet, buy something else than jeans.
The alternatives are even less available.
Outdoor-cargo-type pants (the ones you'll find at your local outdoor shop)
*Snicker* Get real. "Outdoor" clothing is usually sized S, M, L, often XL, and ocassionaly Longs. They don't even try to fit non-average people.
And the only thing your post established is that you don't realise that "at" and "least" are two separate words.
Do yourselves a favor and don't bother getting into IT. It's a dead end.
The way to wear a tie comfortably is to make sure your shirt collars are the right size. You should be able to get two or three fingers under the collar without difficulty, while it is buttoned. With a collar like this, your tie will fit snugly against the collar, but will not be choking you.
Nope. I've got shirts like that. They are a little better, but I think it's partially a psychological thing - with a tie, I can feel the collar pressing against the side of my neck, and I hate it.
Did you read my post?
As I said earlier, I'm not an imperial guy.
I don't know the numbers, and wasn't sure what the parent poster was saying. If he's around 195cm and is around 80 kilos, as another poster said, that's tall. Sorry, I clearly got it wrong, I just wish he said he was tall.
For the record, apparently Australians now weigh more than Americans anyway. And yeah, both countries have obesity problems.
Chairman Mao would have not wrote it any better.
I have never used formal attire for interviews. I have figured out that if they don't give me a job for my appeareance then I don't want to work for them.
Guess what? I have worked in multinational companies all around the world for the last 15 years.
Use your common sense: if you are worth it you will get away with murder.
If you are not top cookie you will need to conform a bit more, but still dressing is a matter of individuality and taste. Giving rules like if we were part of the Communist party is absolutely horrendous, specially on an era in which pretty much everything goes.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
The question to ask is, is he correct?
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Tell me what is the utility of such useless piece of cloth.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
ITYM Capitalist party. Oh, wait, that's supposed to be both of them...
This is a Capitalist uniform. The Chairman Mao communist uniform looks alot like pyjamas to western eyes. It is also the uniform of the (roughly-)opposing team to these capitalistic business places, so it's approximately as recommended that you wear the Commie pyjamas there as that you wear a Yankees uniform in Boston.
There are other capitalist 'uniforms' -- including (though the wearers hate thinking about it) those uniforms that are changed every six months or so. I don't bother myself with those, primarily because it would more trouble for me than I'm inclined to go through.
I don't really care what you or anyone else wears. This is a system I worked out for myself that works reasonably well in USian offices. I have offered it as a hopefully useful piece of help to those who wish it. If you are happy with the system (or lack therof) that you have, it's not really an attempt to get you to dress like me/half the guys in offices in the U.S. I promise you I won't come after you like some twisted version of the unfashion-police if you don't dress this way.
It's also an observed system, rather than a created one. I didn't make the rules, I merely observed them and wrote them down. So if you want to change the dress code in some place that wears full business, I'm not a very useful person to you.
Some people have no common sense when it comes to clothing . I'm one of them. For instance: I don't understand why wearing a Yankees uniform in Boston can cause one to be on the receiving end of physical violence. One way of dealing with this is simply to dress fairly conservatively. People don't beat up people in khakis (at least, not in the U.S.) just because they are wearing khakis. And no one ever shot anyone for a pair of Redwings, that I know of...
And it's fairly rare to fail to get a job for wearing a suit. If you've done your homework then it will be fairly obvious who the non-suit wearing companies are. That homework should be done before interviews for reasons far beyond what to wear to the interview.
Some people manage to get well paying, creative jobs that they are happy at without ever going to college or even getting through high school. However, one would be unwise to advise an entire class of tenth graders to drop out of high school based on this. Some people have the combination of social skills and technical skills to pull this off sucessfully. Some people don't. I have good technical skills. My social skills are good but not natural (which is to say that they are completely learned, slightly slower than most people's and take a lot more energy) and on top of that I'm disabled. I've already got enough ticks against me, just walking in the door. Regardless of the ADA, people believe that disability will make you a less valuable worker and so a certain percentage of the people I interview with will automatically say no. Perhaps this is a similar percentage as the percentage of people you interview with who will refuse to hire you because you refuse to wear a suit. If I were to refuse to wear a suit too, then I'd have twice as many people saying no without even considering my qualifications.
(It's impossible to know how many people don't hire you because of your lack of suit, as it's impossible to know how many people don't hire me because of disability, but that both these things happen is fairly probable)
So when I interview I have a goal: Get a job I can live with. "I can live with" involves many variables, including social responsibility (hah! I really am a commie!), commute (or avoidance of, really), getting certain job responsibilities and avoiding the handful that disability makes ridiculous, etc. Part of your "I can live with" is latitude in clothing. It's not part of mine. I figure it's just as easy to put on one shirt as another.
If anything goes, why aren't we just giving up on clothing entirely, or wearing our pyjamas to work (because then we'd all look like commies