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Rather than using signal strength for triangulation, you use it to record a "radio map", and compare your current position to the map. The basic steps are:

1) Walk around a room, recording the signal strength to each AP (so you get a file such as "Access Point #1, Avg signal: 96 AP#2, Avg signal: 74 ..." ). Netstumbler or other software can help you make this file.

Create a "profile" like this for every location you wish to map (roughly, one every square foot or meter). The number of profiles determines the granularity of the system, but too many profiles can cause "collisions" in the sense that different locations have similar profiles, for some reason or another. There are ways to combat this, one of which is to make an educated guess on the new location based on the last one. (i.e., the user could not have walked over 10m in one interval)

2) When a user connects, they can compare their current signal strength info ( such as AP#1, signal: 34 AP#2, signal: 74) to the map: the closest point is probably their location.

I did a simple euclidean distance calculation (taking each profile as a vector in some large space [cool how the pythagorean thm. generalizes, eh?]. There are many better ways, which I am researching this semester, but euclidean distance is fine for now.

I'm pretty sure this is why they must spend an hour per 10,000 square feet to "calibrate" the system. I had to do the same, but it was a *lot* slower; I need to make a tool to do this automagically.

This semester I am also looking to get my system working with an ipaq robot running familiar. It's the combination of the palm pilot robot kit and this positioning system. Hopefully, the little robot should know (roughly) where it is, and be able to be controlled via the internet.

Check out my webpage if you are interested in more details.

Assuming docking itself can be easily done, it's really 'remembering' a room, or even just a path to get back to the docking station, that is the hard part.

Consider the small number of sensors on this thing. If I remember correctly it has just a few IR sensors (used for following walls, etc). Mapbuilding in general requires a little more than that, and is also VERY computationally and memory intensive (for more information you might want to read about the most common method for mapbuilding, evidence grids).

Even if you were just to attempt to remember a) the location of your docking station and b) your own location, after half an hour of vacuuming (especially on carpet) and bumping into things, the odometry error that will have accumulated is tremendous -- you'd have no hope of knowing your actual location relative to the docking station. Normally a number of localization methods are used to combat odometry error (most commonly, Kalman filtering). However, they all require lots of sensory input and processing.

So, if you want a robot that can plug itself back in (at least, one that can do so by remembering where it's docking station is), be prepared to spend a lot more than $200.

I did read the ruling. I have been following these cases closely, partly just out of general interest and partly because of my own legal troubles (here) with the DMCA.

Where do you read that providing "useful" information on how to circumvent technological measures was found to be illegal? It's possible that a judge could find this to be contributory infringement (under a different section of copyright code) but not the DMCA. It's just not in there.

> Sure, he was prosecuted for trafficking in a circumvention device.
> And, I suppose 2600 was prosecuted for illegally copying DVDs, right?

2600 was prosecuted for trafficking in a circumvention device, as well. (??)

I believe the full name of the first book is "Alice's Adventures In Wonderland."

http://www.hcii.cs.cmu.edu/People/Masters_students /Masters_current.html
and click on the video on the right.

Micah
www.alpern.org

Here at CMU they have a whole school in the school of computer science to deal with this issue. Check them out at http://www.hcii.cs.cmu.edu/ .

They seem to have a bunch of projects relating to what you are doing here

Good luck,
--Alex

Here at CMU they have a whole school in the school of computer science to deal with this issue. Check them out at http://www.hcii.cs.cmu.edu/ .

They seem to have a bunch of projects relating to what you are doing here

Good luck,
--Alex

Here at CMU they have a whole school in the school of computer science to deal with this issue. Check them out at http://www.hcii.cs.cmu.edu/ .

They seem to have a bunch of projects relating to what you are doing here

Good luck,
--Alex

This is really stupid and childish. I'll be the first to condemn the DMCA (after my own legal troubles with it), but this is not the way to go about it.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not a lawyer though I have studied the DMCA and lawsuits based on it carefully), but the DMCA absolutely does not ban security information. The only related things that it addresses are circumvention (of protection technology in order to access a copyrighted work) and trafficking in circumvention devices. Security information (especially in the form of a vague changelog) is absolutely not either of those. By no stretch of the imagination can I figure out how it's supposed to be a violation of the DMCA.

What's really going on here? Someone (Alan Cox) is trying to make a point about the control that the DMCA gives to copyright holders. He's placed a piece of his copyrighted information that some people want (text of the kernel changelog) behind a click-through license that says you can't access it if you're from the USA. In my opinion this has fuck-all to do with the DMCA (because there is no "technological measure" to circumvent -- please read the definition of technological measure in the DMCA if you disagree with me), just click-through licenses, but, whatever. Then Red Hat decides, well, we can't copy that information because the copyright holder has told us we can't. Assuming that such click-through licenses are legal in the first place, of course, RH would be entirely within its rights for a non-US-citizen to license the document and then summarize it for Red Hat. Either they are too lazy for this, don't understand the issues involved, or are perpetuating this same bizarre notion that the DMCA makes every single thing you'd want to do illegal.

The DMCA only has to do with copyright, and only as far as circumventing technological measures that protect copyrighted material. The court enjoined DeCSS because it found it to be a circumvention device (they did NOT enjoin english descriptions of the algorithm, and especially not security notices about CSS being weak!). I don't agree with the decision, but at least it makes sense in terms of the law. (I also don't agree with the law!!)

The important point I'm trying to make is that to fight dumb laws like the DMCA, we need to understand what they really say and what the actual implications are. There's a tendency for hackers to use logical deduction ("If DeCSS is illegal because it can be used to break DVDs, then hammers must be illegal because they can be used to smash open store windows!") in order to decide the implications of a law. THIS IS NOT HOW COURTS WORK! Law is much more squishy than that. Making these sorts of alarmist claims, as if the DMCA outlaws everything that we'd ever want to do, hurts our cause by spreading misinformation. Instead, we should be educating people about what the DMCA actually addresses (ie, "Did you know it would be illegal for you to create MP3s from SACDs that you bought?" or "Did you know that it's illegal to buy mod chips for your Playstation so that you can play imported games that you also legally purchased?" or "Did you know that it's illegal to use your screen-reader software with the eBook that you legally bought?"). That's how we can convince people that the law is wrong.

SVR4 Nazi Furher:

Ja wohl!!! How can we skrrrrrrew de administrrrrators?

Nazi SYS5 init architect:

split ze starrrrtup scripts, makingkt dem more komplicated.

Umm, I don't think that happened. I find SVR4 style easier. Every service in it's own seperate file. Ever try to start a system server on BSD by hand? It's harder than you think. In SV$ land, I can take any server down by running a kill script and restart it by running its startup script. hell, even FreeBSD has a SVR4 style init directory (granted, only for a single run level now). And if it's all that hard, just make /etc/rc3.d/S99local and run your stuff form there. RedHat (and probably most other Linuxes) have runlevel editors that make administration pretty easy.

Hmm, Berkeleyness of Berkeley software, who knew?

FreeBSD (maybe all {Free,Net,Open}BSDs) uses SoftUpdates, which in some ways is better than journalling, depending on what you want.

>While I love the products of the Kraft division of Phillip Morris

Now that I didn't know.

It puts a whole new spin on Kraft Dinner, it's Canadian name. I guess I learn something new everyday. Like that smarties aren't always smarties (but even when they're called Rockets they still taste damn good).

Intent, and due process

For intent, the it must be a defense to the DMCA that if the intent was to exercise a fair use right, then it is allowed. If it meets certain criteria (news commentary, satire, education, or other fair use allowable exceptions) then arguments over how much of original article was quoted (as an example), then it must be considered prima facia evidence that the use falls under fair use, and therefore, due to intent, of the alleged infringer, the complainant in a DMCA case must overcome the prima facia threshold to prove a violation of the DMCA.

Due process:

From the previous stories and posts on slashdot of ISPs receiving demand notices of shutdowns of customers for DMCA violations, there must be due process prior to shutdowns. Currently, as reported on slashdot, and as testified to in Congressional Committee hearings, the MPAA and other leeches are sending demand notices to ISPs alleging that account holders, identified by IP address, are sharing copyrighted works. They demand the immediate shutdown of the accounts. Some ISPs are capitulating, some are shutting down only the most egregious violators after negotiating with the leeches, and some are holding out a little more. What is happening in this process is that the account holder is not receiving any notice, the plug is just being pulled.

Testimony has been heard in Congress of accounts being shut down without notice from account holders whose child had written a book report on Cinderella on one case, Snow White on another case, and Lord of the Pigs in another case. In all three cases, the leeches alleged that the account holders were trading copyrighted works. In all three cases, the accounts were shut down.

If my child writes a book report on my computer, based on a copyrighted work, does that give Jack Valenti the right to pull the plug on my dns servers, web servers (hosting other peoples' web sites, other peoples' email accounts, other peoples' voicemail services, other peoples' pager services, other peoples'...

There must be due process for this procedure. The internet is no longer a luxury. Children use the internet for research for school. Parents and teachers use the internet for communicating about their children, school closings, emergencies, and more. On September 11, cellular sites were overloaded, and cell phone service was knocked out for most of NYC. But the internet stayed up. People who died in the WTC were able to get email out to loved ones. People who survived were able to notify relatives that they were safe, and were on their way to sleep at a co-worker's home, or stay at a bosses' office, home, whatever. Children were able to contact their parents and tell them they had made it out of ground zero and were with their teacher. Libraries have argued to protect the rights of people to access pornography on their computers, and against filtering software, because people have the right to access the internet, it is a necessity, and they can access at the internet if they can't afford a computer. Laptops are now standard requirements at Universities.

Running a web site on your server? Does your child access the internet on your small home network? Can you afford to have your web site taken down without notice because your small ISP can't afford to fight the leeches' deep pockets? Care to guess how long your site will be down while you make arrangements to find another ISP, negotiate the price for additional static IP addresses, dns server use for your site, changing the registrar info for new dns servers, changing the dns server entries, having the information from the dns servers filter through the internet so your site is recognized once again by name not number?

If you make a living off of your site, I doubt you can afford to have the plug pulled on it for what could turn out to be a minimum two week period of downtime, and the associated costs of a new isp, deposits, minimum contracts, lost time, lost profits and more.

There must be due process before a disconnect is allowed. The due process time must be equal to whatever filing time periods are given to the leeches. Nothing less. During this due process, it must be structured to allow the account holder to dispute the allegations, and to fill out the form that transfers liability from the ISP to the account holder, thereby forcing the leeches to go after you instead of the ISP (which is all the ISP really wants, a transfer of liability), and which will therefore keep your internet connection up.

Who would fill out the form ? Since I run a "news site" or blog or whatever the current terminology is in fashion at the moment, and am therefore a reporter and publisher who quotes other news sites, it is therefore very likely that at some point in the future, I will be accused of a DMCA violation. I will not view it as such, I will view it as a Fair Use issue, news commentary. The only thing that will be at issue is how much I quoted, and whether the amount that I quoted falls under fair use or not. Since I'm willing to take the liability risk on what I publish, and since I don't want my plug pulled, I would fill out the letter as the law provides , but currently, the DMCA, as the leeches are applying it, does not even require my notice and opportunity to respond in this fashion, or give me the ability of defending my right to connectivity. This must change.

As to the other problems with the DMCA, that will be dealt with as the issues arise. But we must defend Fair Use at every corner, and take every opportunity and opening given to us to try and restore Fair Use rights to the public.

So, I am not a lawyer. A lawyer needs to take my arguments above on intent, on prima facia evidence, and on due process, and make them into a lucid statement, and submit them. Thank you. From all of us.

It's all about the children

More astonishing precedent is set by the confiscation of web servers at raisethefist.com .

If I am to accept what I beleive to be your criteria, then it's pretty clear in the light of recent developments, that the U.S. is not a liberal democracy, and is quickly moving away from any reasonable description of a Republic.

Let me use my palm with it, or put a USB BT adapter into a clients PC and I'd be consultant from heaven, one little iPod with ALL my needed data!

It looks like you're looking to have your storage, your palm, and your client's computer all able to access everything more or less simultaneously.

I have a suggestion that may be cheaper than what you propose:

1. A firewire or USB laptop drive enclosure ($20-$50) with an el-cheapo old laptop drive (maybe $50.00 for a few gigs)
2. A USB IR port
3. Palm Pilot

If you have to stick something into a client's computer anyway (the aforementioned USB BT card), just plug in the drive to a USB or firewire port and plug in the USB IR card.

Surely, there is an app allowing you to do some "Direct Connect" type stuff with the palm to the client PC, and the data transfers would be from the USB drive to the client computer and vice-versa. The IR port would just handle commands -- it wouldn't do any heavy-lifting.

The software side of this is what I am not sure about, but Pebbles looks promising. FWIW, the Pebbles team suggests the serial port be used rather than IR. Bluetooth support is evidently on the way.

Hope this helps.

Guac-foo

Did a google search for decss and here you go! Oh BTW, this ./ story was on the top of the page (in the news section)!
http://www.pigdog.org/decss/
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DeCSS/Gallery/
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q =decss

• Posting DeCSS as journalistic material as part of a news article.
• Posting DeCSS as a form of political protest.
• Using DeCSS as educational material.

So? You can find DeCSS over all sorts of servers in europe, even a Google Search will create some interesting results. Infact the first few links, are a collection of links to where you can download DeCSS: First Link, Second Link and Third Link. I just hate it when people make a big deal out of something so pointless.

Actually, the most interesting part of this bill (to me) is that it modifies the worst part of the DMCA (17 USC 1201) concerning circumvention devices. Paraphrasing ...

Circumvention is not a violation if: ... " such act is necessary to make a non-infringing use under this title; and "
" the copyright owner fails to make publicly available the necessary means to perform such non-infringing use without additional cost or burden to such person. "

Providing a circumvention device is not a violation if: ... " such means are necessary to enable a non-infringing use ..."
" such means are designed, produced and marketed to enable a non-infringing use ..."
" the copyright owner fails to make available the necessary means referred to "

This is great! With those in place, the DMCA becomes a mere annoyance rather than a real impediment to software development.

My own DMCA Battle...

For those of us who were lucky enough to miss this experience back in 1995, you may find this link to be educational, and this link to be amusing.

- Tim

And here is a link: http://asg.web.cmu.edu/acap/

Online Library of books about Scientology. VERY GOOD

Operation Clambake

FACTNet, over 50 megs of information about $cientology

Tell your family, tell your friends. Forewarned is forearmed.

Lee

He has even been protested on-campus by these idiots because of his site.

He sure has. His students even counter-protested :)

I haven't seen a link posted to Dave Touretzky's page yet. Here it is: http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/. His Scientology page is here: http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Secrets/index.html. He has even been protested on-campus by these idiots because of his site.

I haven't seen a link posted to Dave Touretzky's page yet. Here it is: http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/. His Scientology page is here: http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Secrets/index.html. He has even been protested on-campus by these idiots because of his site.

The author was a member of the church and he recounts his experieneces from the time he joined the church and the events that followed.

ARCHIVE.ORG has blocked my entire web site: all of www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst. My home page. My list of professional publications. My research project web pages. The Gallery of CSS Descramblers. Tutorial pages, Lisp book, everything I've written.

I don't exist. I've never existed. I've been erased from Internet history.

All because I dared to have some Scientology material on my web site.

ARCHIVE.ORG boasts a relationship with the Lbrary of Congress and with the National Science Foundation. I wonder if they are receiving any government funding. Surely it is impermissible to do the bidding of an abusive cult, at the expense of honest citizens, while taking government money?

-- Dave Touretzky

While we understand that the organization behind the Wayback Machine does not want to unwittingly contribute to copyright infringement, we are distressed by the way in which the removal of our site was conducted, and the lack of feedback that we received from archive.org when we questioned this decision earlier this year.

When a Wayback Machine user attempts to access the archived version of SlatkinFraud.com, they are instead provided with a misleading message claiming that the 'site owners' requested that it not be included in the archive. This is wholly untrue, and entirely in contradiction to the actual views of the website owners in question, who would very much like to see our site become part of the Internet Archive. The material contained within SlatkinFraud.com is wholly owned and maintained by its site owners.

Unfortunately, as has become clear in recent days, SlatkinFraud.com is not the only site that has been summarily removed from the Archive based on complaints from the Church of Scientology. In the explanation recently provided by archive.org, the writer notes that the Church "asserted ownership" of an unknown quantity of material that was, at the time, available through the Wayback Machine archives. The maintainers of archive.org, however, have apparently made no effort whatsoever to inform site owners of these complaints lodged against their material, and in fact, until now, had not even replied to direct questions regarding the removal of certain sites when asked by the site owners in question.

This is clearly not an acceptable system for determining what sites or material should be archived by the Wayback Machine, since it does not adhere to one of the main provisions of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act: the counter-notification process.

Under the DMCA, the owner of a site that has been alleged to contain infringing material has the right to challenge that claim via a counternotification letter to the hosting ISP if he or she believes that the material in question does not infringe on the copyright in question. After receiving this counter-notification from the user, the ISP is obliged to replace any files that were temporarily removed pending the complaint, at which point the original complainant must either initiate formal legal action against the owner of the site, or drop the matter entirely.

This system provides an important check to the sometimes perilous balance between the rights of copyright owners, and those of users. By formalizing the process, and allowing a response from the individual responsible for the alleged infringement, it frees the hosting company from the annoyance of dealing with frivolous claims.

A similar situation that arose resulted from similar complaints made by Church of Scientology lawyers about certain listings on the popular search engine Google. These complaints initially resulted in the wholesale removal of several Scientology-related sites from the Google database. Once this omission was discovered, the decision taken by Google to remove the sites without notice led to an outcry from its users. In fact, on closer examination of the complaints from Scientology, it became immediately obvious that the Church's lawyers were acting in bad faith by deliberately mixing trademark and copyright complaints, even though trademark complaints are not covered under the DMCA at all.

The ensuing barrage of criticism and media coverage both national and international forced Google to reconsider its decision. After several days, the company replaced the links in question, and agreed to make public any further DMCA complaints in cooperation with Chilling Effects, a non-profit website dedicated to preventing abuse of existing copyright law. This solution was welcomed by Google users, who had felt betrayed not only by the removal itself, but by the lack of disclosure on the part of Google regarding the initial complaints.

The explanation offered by the Internet Archive does not mention whether the original complaints received from the Church of Scientology were made under the provisions of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. Such information would be helpful to site owners such as ourselves, as it would assist us in determining whether a complaint is justified, and remove any infringing material on our own volition.

Assuming that it was, in fact, a DMCA request, it would serve archive.org well to follow the same procedure as that eventually and successfully - - adopted by Google, and make every effort to inform site owners of such complaints in a timely manner. This could be done through a simple email alert system that would inform the site owner that a complaint had been made, or through a similar policy to that of Google, and publicizing the letters, either on the archive.org website itself or through an interested third party such as Chilling Effects.

This would allow the site owners to decide whether or not to issue a counter-notification, and relieve the Internet Archive of any concerns over contributory liability that may have played a role in its decision to remove the material without warning. It would also discourage copyright owners from making frivolous complaints about material that is obviously protected by fair use, since the process requires that formal legal action be taken within thirty days of receiving the counter notification letter.

Should archive.org decide not to re-list a site within the Wayback Machine at this point, which is, of course, its right, it should also refrain from suggesting that this was at the request of the site owner, and instead, explain its own concerns over potential infringement.

Finally, given the enormity of the Internet Archive project, and the benefits that it has provided, and, we hope, will continue to provide to the online community, it is essential for the Library maintainers to be open and transparent about the methodology used in selecting sites to be archived. Removing sites from the archive in a clandestine fashion, as dictated by the current policy, will only lead to increased concern that the Archive itself is rewriting the Internet history that it seeks to chronicle.

The Internet Archive's stated commitment is to provide a useful, wide-ranging resource for researchers, historians and scholars. It is surely in part due to such an admirable mandate that the Internet Archive has benefited from contributions from sponsors such as Alexa Internet, AT&T, Compaq and Xerox PARC, not to mention many individual supporters who believe in the idea of an Internet history that is freely accessible to all. It is doubtful that these supporters would want to see this ambitious initiative tainted by the suggestion that the integrity of the archive itself has been corrupted by those who would misuse copyright and trademark laws to censor views with which they disagree. The risk of such silent, selective discrimination against protected speech is great; the power to prevent such abuses by making all information related to such attempts to discriminate will always be greater.

Clearly, the best course of action is for the Internet Archive to adopt policy that is not only transparent, but dedicated to protecting not only its own interests, but those of copyright owners, site creators and, of course, the thousands of individuals who use the Wayback Machine and other Internet Archive services on a daily basis. On balance, the approach taken by Google, modified appropriately for the particular situation faced by the Internet Archive, would seem to be an excellent roadmap for the Internet Archive to follow.

Kady O'Malley, Dave Touretzky, and Scott Pilutik

Owners of Slatkinfraud.com

If I understand LVM correctly, it doesn't do what the poster wishes. It will allow him to choose which logical subdirs reside where, but not have all his files everywhere.

It seems like a distributed filesystem, like InterMezzo or Coda would be a better match. That way his files are everywhere and the fs automatically manages updates regardless of where changes are made - including after disconnected operation.

(it was already on /.! please dont resubmit, you *know* they wont realise they already did this story!)

This is a protocol for storing application configurations centrally. All you need to do is get your cellphone and PDA companies to support it. Hmm yeah. Not sure what the status of the project is at the moment though. Google for it, or read this white paper.

Has anyone just asked Scott Fahlman if he remembers seeing it before his first use? It's not like he's hard to find or anything.

I wonder if someone could get Professor Touretzky of Carnegie-Mellon to set up a "Gallery of Warchalk Art".

Check out his Gallery of CSS Descramblers.

So how exactly does one duplicate commercial DVD's?

Step 1: Move to Canada. (This has its own drawbacks.)

Step 2: Get a CSS descrambler.

Step 3: Follow the directions in the documentation to rip VOB and IFO files.

Step 4: Burn all files ripped from the DVD to a new blank DVD.

Step 5: Enjoy your backup. DO NOT distribute it to a third party.

Next time, they'll need a heavy-duty robot company, like RedZone Robotics, Red Whittaker's spinoff from the CMU Field Robotics Center. They've built robots to work on damaged nuclear reactors and to do asbestos removal, and some of their their robots have cut through walls.

(It's a bit sad to look at the CMU Field Robotics Center website today. They're mostly doing NASA work, which is the kiss of death for a robotics project. Very little of what NASA does in robotics ever gets used, let alone flies on a mission. None of it gets built in quantity. The output of a NASA project is usually just a press release.)

Why do people copy, or want to copy, proprietary software illegally when they can legally obtain copies of Free and Open Source software more easily

Because the features essential for their work are patented, and the patent holders do not license the patents for use in free software. That's one reason why GIMP doesn't support CMYK, Pantone, or GIF writing and why the LAME project does not distribute binaries.

Or because the proprietary software uses a proprietary encrypted file format. In the United States, it's a crime to distribute software that decrypts a proprietary encrypted file format.

this pdf compares how journaling file sytems compare to non-journaling systems like ffs or freebsd's soft updates.

I was wondering why no Random Art.

Been done.

If you ask nicely, I'll give you a good URL from where you can download it.

See also: illegal art, valenti cracks

When you the MP3 of the song in a few filters, it gives the DeCSS source code.

I have done this. Along the lines of what Aphex Twin used to hide his face, I wrote a program that converted a .bmp of the efdtt source code (efdtt is a small DeCSS program, available at the Gallery of CSS Descramblers) into a waveform (using an inverse fourier transform of sorts) and mixed it on top of some song.

I've received a lot of email about my test code. I obtained permission to distribute my test code, and have made a web page with it. For those who are interested, please see http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/~komarek/work/RobustChol eskyPerf/RobustCholeskyPerf.html.

-Paul Komarek

Yes, I am the inventor of the sideways "smiley face"

Not such a discovery
Since the man himself had it online online on his website for ages.

This was retrieved from the spice vax oct-82 backup tape by Jeff Baird on September 10, 2002.

Not such a discovery
Since the man himself had it online online on his website for ages.

This was retrieved from the spice vax oct-82 backup tape by Jeff Baird on September 10, 2002.

Not such a discovery
Since the man himself had it online online on his website for ages.

This was retrieved from the spice vax oct-82 backup tape by Jeff Baird on September 10, 2002.

Guess you haven't looked on the smiley originators
web page.

Scott E. Fahlman's Home Page :-)[http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~sef/]

According to Fahlman's own page on the subject, there is the possibility that the smiley symbol was used by teletype operators way back in the day. However, there is no hard evidence of this occurring, and no web pages document it. As we all know, if a point has no web page supporting it, it can't be true. :-)

A bit of trivia: the Carnegie Mellon user who posted that ancient message is Jim Morris. Most CMU computer science majors would recognize Prof. Morris: he's now the dean of the School of Computer Science.

Spread the word, Jim. :-)

Since the man himself had it online on his website for ages.

Since the man himself had it online on his website for ages.