Slashdot Mirror

I'm assuming (for this discussion) that you actually want to run Linux/OSX in the first place. [After all, you could just use that Windows license and run Windows (e.g. in dual boot); for running Windows applications, that works pretty well! :-)]

With that said, if you are going to run Linux, the biggest advantages of CrossOver/Wine are:

1) 3D Gaming: Xen/VMWare don't support 3D graphics hardware. (The latest version of VMWare has an unsupported switch you can turn on, but it doesn't work too well.) If you want to use your fancy 3D graphics card in your Windows games under Linux, you'll need CrossOver or Wine or something like it.

2) Performance: CrossOver doesn't emulate or virtualize anything... as a native implementation of the Win32 API, it performs at native speeds. (In some cases, it actually performs faster than real Windows.) This is especially important for gaming, but other applications can also benefit.

3) No boot times (I guess this is just another aspect of performance)

4) You don't have to waste time transferring files from your VM to your real box; one filesystem means the files are right there on your hard drive.

That's the gist of it. Crossover lists out their key differentiators in a much longer table that basically says the same thing.

I disagree that running Linux is a luxury unless you add that running any computer is a luxury. Last week I bought a new pc with linux preinstalled. The lowest priced Windows PC was twice what I paid for mine. And they all had XP installed, because of Activation and WGA I had decided years ago I wouldn't buy another Windows OS unless I absolutely had to or until MS got rid of Activation and WGA. Now I did have to get a card of ram because the pc didn't come with enough and a second harddisk, again for the same reason, but even then I was able to pay less than the cheapest Windows PC.

I haven't tried Wine so I don't know how well it works. But for those Windows apps I may want to run in Linux, the only one I know right now is XMLSpy, has been tested to run in CodeWeaver's Crossover. I agree with you in that as with any other tool you should use the computer system/OS that works for what it's supposed to do.

Stick ubuntu on a machine, download the latest version of wine from the winehq repository http://www.winehq.com/site/download-deb , try out your app, if you have no joy there then head over to http://www.codeweavers.com/products/download_trial _linux/ and try out crossover

I've finally got a PC powerful enough to play modern PC games: a MacBook :) . First game I installed on it was Half-Life 2 as it was never, ever going to get ported to OS X and that has to be the most unpleastant installation and purchasing experiance I've ever had - but the game was great!

http:\\www.winehq.org

It's getting better every time I install a new version. It's not a silver bullet, but gets you off the MS crack pipe.

The commercial version for the PHB's: http://www.codeweavers.com/

There's also a nice dos emulator: www.dosemu.org/ That's made some of my clients -very- happy.

Billable time for testing/install is very low compared to license costs on some of these commercial products.

I've only recently figured out how to tweak the registry to allow me to disable automatic updates again. So all they have to do is change that registry setting and make it a critical update...

Even then it's not manditory. Just never update, they can't force you to update. I haven't updated Windows in more than 2 years. Just as well, now that CodeWeavers has released CrossOver Mac, I may not even need to run Windows after I get a Mac and transfer the files on my PC.

Why wait? Crossover Office supports both Dreamweaver MX and Photoshop 7.

I wouldn't even be surprised to see a wrapper that installs Windows apps on Macs to run without a full version of Windows installed... As a Mac professional, this prospect scares the crap out of me.

Ahem...

It works great for really old stuff. It doesn't work so great for newer stuff. MS will be launching a new set of applications next year (maybe) and crossover hasn't even really caught up to 2003. I recently looked in to it for Project 2003, it doesn't support it. So I had to set up VMWare with XP pro on it for one of my upcoming college classes.

Hell Access 97 still isn't working right, even with a pledge of over $6000. The highest pledged application.

There big claim to fame? Excel and Word 97 and 2000 are gold apps.. the rest are silver, lower or not working at all.

http://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/browse/?o rder=medal_id;sort=DESC

http://www.codeweavers.com/

'Nuff said.

In addition to that a quick search for ipod on Gnome Files turns up Banshee , Rhythmbox , Listen and Yamipod>{not open source} , all of these look like nice options for iPod and music library management under linux but Banshee and Listen really stand out. No DRM of course but there is an entry on codeweavers' site for iTunes though i've no idea how compatible it is at this stage.http://www.codeweavers.com/compatibility/bro wse/name?app_id=134

We intend for it to run all the applications that our current CrossOver Office product runs, with some new additions in the Microsoft 2003 version products. We also hope to offer support for a limited number of games.

We intend for it to run all the applications that our current CrossOver Office product runs, with some new additions in the Microsoft 2003 version products. We also hope to offer support for a limited number of games.

There's also Crossover Mac coming, from Codeweavers. Not only is this better because the user can buy it instead of waiting on game makers to port stuff, but it's also better because unlike Transgaming, Codeweavers contributes back to WINE.

Of course, there's also vanilla DarWINE, but I haven't had any success with it on my Intel iMac yet.

As I understand it, except for the name Virtual PC for Mac and Virtual PC for Windows are entirely different products.

Not that I care, of course -- I'm much more interested in running Windows apps "natively" with Darwine or Crossover Mac instead.

Then you can simply install a MacOs-compliant version of Wine and run Windows builds of MS Office natively. Office 2000 is Gold status with CrossOver. And if VBA support in Office 2000 is not enough for you, I hear that CodeWeaver will announce improved support for Office 2003 soon.

Actually, the real competitor to Transgaming is this (and Codeweavers actually releases its changes back to WINE!).

Your wish is my command!

Done and Done!

Apparently, Version 6.0 of Crossover Office intends to have significant support for Direct3D 9, and for gaming. They also intend to support Half Life 2 on OS X.

then complains about not having Outlook on Linux.

Huh? I've ran M$ Outlook for years at my current job *on* Linux. I can also run Evolution (which has some pretty cool features) and connect to M$ Exchange if I want to. This guys doesn't know what he is talking about.

The article is dumb.

1. Crossover Office, a cheap, pay for product runs both Office 2003 (including Outlook) and iTunes. Not to mention Shockwave, as well.
2. Isn't Shockwave media handled by the Flash plugin now?

As for you, here are the games I play on Linux: Neverwinter Nights, Doom3, World of Warcraft, Eve Online, Half Life 2/CS:Source, Guild Wars, and Second Life. Of course, there are many other games I can play, but these are the ones I'm currently playing.

While I don't have access to the entire Windows game library on Linux, there are enough blockbusters that I can play to allow me to be happy. I'd rather my $15 go to Transgaming than Microsoft, so I've been Windows free for over 2 years.

If Cedega and Wine could run all the Windows games I play, and the few apps I depend on that don't have Linux ports, I would literally switch to Linux tomorrow.

If they did that, they'd be slitting their own throats. If you can get MS Office for Linux, why buy Windows? They have to keep that applications barrier to entry high.

Releasing a version of Office for Linux would help not harm MS. Office is one of if not the biggest money maker for MS and they don't earn much from Windows. If MS were to release a version of Office for Linux more people would buy it, if priced right, than they'd loose in sales of Windows. Sure some may switch to Linux but many now using Linux would get Office. Look at CodeWeaver's Crossover Office. It's a build to run MS Office on Linux. CodeWeavers does the same with other apps, such as Photoshop.

If they did that, they'd be slitting their own throats. If you can get MS Office for Linux, why buy Windows? They have to keep that applications barrier to entry high.

Releasing a version of Office for Linux would help not harm MS. Office is one of if not the biggest money maker for MS and they don't earn much from Windows. If MS were to release a version of Office for Linux more people would buy it, if priced right, than they'd loose in sales of Windows. Sure some may switch to Linux but many now using Linux would get Office. Look at CodeWeaver's Crossover Office. It's a build to run MS Office on Linux. CodeWeavers does the same with other apps, such as Photoshop.

You're right about it being possible to run Internet Explorer under wine. I had not heard of Es4Linux, but I had heard of running Internet Explorer under Linux with the help of "CrossOver Office". It is a slightly enhanced version of Wine made by CodeWeavers. The Codeweavers website mentions running Internet Explorer 6.0 under Linux. Will that allow me to run Windows spyware just like Windows users do? Probably not, but for the last few years I have used the "CodeWeavers CrossOver Office" version of Wine to run MS Office 2000 under Linux although I mostly use the Linux version of Open Office instead of MS Office.

You're right about it being possible to run Internet Explorer under wine. I had not heard of Es4Linux, but I had heard of running Internet Explorer under Linux with the help of "CrossOver Office". It is a slightly enhanced version of Wine made by CodeWeavers. The Codeweavers website mentions running Internet Explorer 6.0 under Linux. Will that allow me to run Windows spyware just like Windows users do? Probably not, but for the last few years I have used the "CodeWeavers CrossOver Office" version of Wine to run MS Office 2000 under Linux although I mostly use the Linux version of Open Office instead of MS Office.

Being a Linux user I'll probably never see it

Imagine having Windows windows and Gnome windows running on top of OS X seemlessly, without seeing their respective desktop backgrounds.

Codeweaver's CrossOver Mac will do exactly what you suggest, run some applications standalone and indeed even without a copy of Windows.

The biggest drawback with it is that it does not support Photoshop CS yet, which would be a major boon to those waiting for the Intel Photoshop to arrive (not out for about another year).

Some of the more popular PC games however are slated to be supported, including Half Life 2.

This comes severely late, in my opinion. The Wine and the CodeWeavers people have put work into running Notes on Linux.

IMHO, it would've been better if IBM had put this investment into Wine so other applications had profited as well. A proper native compilation along with some polishing for the various desktops could've made this "achievement" years earlier. Think Google's Picasa, which was nicely ported to Linux this way, and runs like a charm.

There is also Crossover office.

Well, I don't know. Let's see....three second search on Google....and the answer is yes.

I'm interested in how to buy music and play music from iTunes Music Store(ITMS) from within Linux. Is this for real or is this iTunes on Wine and a lot of pain?

I'm interested in the video recording as well. Is this desktop video application or is this Flash via VNC?

My interest is piqued but, not enough to spend $30 to find out that it's just Windows apps running on Wine.

I'm interested in how to buy music and play music from iTunes Music Store(ITMS) from within Linux. Is this for real or is this iTunes on Wine and a lot of pain?

I'm interested in the video recording as well. Is this desktop video application or is this Flash via VNC?

My interest is piqued but, not enough to spend $30 to find out that it's just Windows apps running on Wine.

1) I do not have a Windows or Mac

Most people have Something that ties them to windows ... Photoshop ... IE (still needed for many internal sites).

Ah, yes, that's right, because - as we all know - Photoshop only runs natively on Windows. Even the Windows version only runs on Windows, just like IE.

Most people have Something that ties them to windows ... Photoshop ... IE (still needed for many internal sites).

Ah, yes, that's right, because - as we all know - Photoshop only runs natively on Windows. Even the Windows version only runs on Windows, just like IE.

The problem is Mac OS has REAL applications. Shake (linux version thank god) Photoshop, Final Cut etc.

The problem is Mac OS has REAL applications. Shake (linux version thank god) Photoshop, Final Cut etc.

There is a product you can buy for cheap called CrossOver Office and it allows you to run a great number of Windows programs including the latest versions Quicken, MS Office, and other popular products. Not all of them behave 100% exactly the same since the software is really running on a re-implementation of the Windows APIs and not all of them are perfect yet, but as time rolls on and more people buy CXOffice their team implements more and more of the code necessary to run Windows software in Linux.

Naturally, native software is better, but for those deal-breakers, maybe CXOffice can come to the rescue. Additionally, CodeWeavers donate their work back to the Wine project so if you're really hard up for cash, you can just download Wine for free and do the same thing. I do recommend trying CXOffice though - it has a graphical installer and configuration interface that makes it oodles easier to use than command-line Wine.

There is a product you can buy for cheap called CrossOver Office and it allows you to run a great number of Windows programs including the latest versions Quicken, MS Office, and other popular products. Not all of them behave 100% exactly the same since the software is really running on a re-implementation of the Windows APIs and not all of them are perfect yet, but as time rolls on and more people buy CXOffice their team implements more and more of the code necessary to run Windows software in Linux.

Naturally, native software is better, but for those deal-breakers, maybe CXOffice can come to the rescue. Additionally, CodeWeavers donate their work back to the Wine project so if you're really hard up for cash, you can just download Wine for free and do the same thing. I do recommend trying CXOffice though - it has a graphical installer and configuration interface that makes it oodles easier to use than command-line Wine.

It's not ;-)

The new Crossover "bottles" concept enables you to have separate spins of Wine for each application. They independant of each other, and independant of "official" Wine. I believe Codeweavers has contributed the code back to Wine (Codeweavers is a very good Wine citizen (in terms of OSS). They fund several of the Wine developers salaries, and contribute back all their code. They contributed back even before Wine was LGPL; it used to be BSD or X11, can't remember).

It's actually pretty cool; create a Crossover Wine Bottle on one of your development systems, setup up the application(s) for that bottle the way you like them, roll them into an RPM, and then roll that RPM out over your network. It's slick.

Take a look at their case studies: http://www.codeweavers.com/products/case_studies/

In particular, the "Legal Aid Manitobe" one documents where Crossover built a custom Wine capable of running a specific application for them, at a cost of $2000. Remember, since its all LGPL, you get the source, and the Wine project gets the patches, too. Furthermore, since you can distribute them on your network as RPM bottles, it doesn't matter if the patches become difficult to merge, or whether or not they get into Wine-Trunk; you just keep running the custom version of Wine for your legacy Windows app.

Notice that Google contracted with Codeweavers to get the Picassa Wine'd version working. I haven't tried it, but the initial reports have been pretty positive.

Paying Codeweavers is not terribly different from paying an individual Wine developer, and if you read either the Wine list-serv or WineHQ's WWN newsletter, you'll see a lot of good will towards Codeweavers. From my perspective, dealing with codeweavers is wonderful; and from a corporative perspective, Codeweavers gives you an entity to rely upon, and some one to take responsibility; not to mention provide a turn-key solution.

Best of both worlds, IMHO. Unlike Transgaming, whom I like as well, but whom has a great deal of tension with the Wine project.

It's not ;-)

The new Crossover "bottles" concept enables you to have separate spins of Wine for each application. They independant of each other, and independant of "official" Wine. I believe Codeweavers has contributed the code back to Wine (Codeweavers is a very good Wine citizen (in terms of OSS). They fund several of the Wine developers salaries, and contribute back all their code. They contributed back even before Wine was LGPL; it used to be BSD or X11, can't remember).

It's actually pretty cool; create a Crossover Wine Bottle on one of your development systems, setup up the application(s) for that bottle the way you like them, roll them into an RPM, and then roll that RPM out over your network. It's slick.

Take a look at their case studies: http://www.codeweavers.com/products/case_studies/

In particular, the "Legal Aid Manitobe" one documents where Crossover built a custom Wine capable of running a specific application for them, at a cost of $2000. Remember, since its all LGPL, you get the source, and the Wine project gets the patches, too. Furthermore, since you can distribute them on your network as RPM bottles, it doesn't matter if the patches become difficult to merge, or whether or not they get into Wine-Trunk; you just keep running the custom version of Wine for your legacy Windows app.

Notice that Google contracted with Codeweavers to get the Picassa Wine'd version working. I haven't tried it, but the initial reports have been pretty positive.

Paying Codeweavers is not terribly different from paying an individual Wine developer, and if you read either the Wine list-serv or WineHQ's WWN newsletter, you'll see a lot of good will towards Codeweavers. From my perspective, dealing with codeweavers is wonderful; and from a corporative perspective, Codeweavers gives you an entity to rely upon, and some one to take responsibility; not to mention provide a turn-key solution.

Best of both worlds, IMHO. Unlike Transgaming, whom I like as well, but whom has a great deal of tension with the Wine project.

I try to run my Windows software that I need under Crossover Office (commercial version of WINE). Check it out, they give it out for a free test drive and its a breeze to install.

Well, actually, I do mean Wine, but not WineHQ wine. Anyone who wants to run Excel or any other Windows applications on Linux should go straight to http://www.codeweavers.com/ and invest in Crossover Office, which costs very little!

It gives you point-and-click installation (as in insert CD, double-click on "Setup.exe") of Windows applications without having to think about anything. Whatever Windows appls you install end up in a a folder called "Windows Applications" in your K-Menu/GNOME-Menu/etc.

I am a professional writer, editor, and photographer that uses Linux. I have the following Windows applications installed in Fedora Core 5, I use them often, and I know nothing about how to configure Wine:

- Microsoft Office XP Professional (Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Access)
- Adobe Photoshop 7.0 + Adobe Camera RAW
- ISL Silkypix 2.0
- PTLens
- NeatImage
- Apple iTunes

I also have installed, but use less often:

- Internet Explorer 6.0
- Adobe FrameMaker 7.0

These all installed with a simple double-click on Setup.exe after inserting the CD. It's that simple. Combined with Fedora Core, whose recent versions are simple installs that autodetect everything, and Linux is a very easy system to migrate to.

Every member of my parents' household have been converted to Linux+MS Office for their everyday needs (this is both of my parents and all of my siblings), as has a friend who's in management at Intel, a friend who's in nonprofit management, and two friends who are graduate students.

Why did they switch? They're tired of having to reinstall Windows periodically thanks to spyware/hardware upgrades/whatever, tired of having to pay for every little bit of functionality they want (Wanna rip an MP3? shell out $$$. Wanna extrat this kind of archive? Shell out $$$. Wanna copy all your files from your old hard drive to your new hard drive? Shell out $$$.)

The point being: it's easy to run Excel on Linux. If you can afford Excel, Crossover is so cheap as to almost be free, and it's the easiest piece of software you'll ever use. It's been this way for the better part of five years now with Linux+Crossover. To say otherwise is to be disingenuous.

With respect to:
'Pro'-software:

Some commercial software delivers functionalities that are not available under Linux. The other way around happens as well, but that does not give so many problems, as the majority must do without them, and you are not expected to have it available. That is only a real problem for quite advanced or professional functionalities, but if it is those you really need, ...

We don't have to "do without them", since there is a wonderful FREE Windows API implementation, that being WINE (Wine Is NOT an Emulator, or as I like to call it, Windows Is Not for Everyone) and the commercial version, Crossover, which I personally use and it works great.

It has out of the box support for many popular M$ software and can be configured to run just about any windows application, even some DOS apps! Granted there are some issues with running some Windows software and can take some tweaking, but to say we must "do without" is simply not true.

I suspect that what Cringely is talking about is CodeWeavers CrossOver. Obviously CodeWeavers and Apple have been working together to get their product to run on Intel Macs. If Apple were to include such functionality in their OS, I would not be at all surprised if they simply licensed the CodeWeaver code. It makes sense for both companies. Perhaps Cringely is not aware that CodeWeaver is based on WINE. Maybe he's not even aware of CrossOver Office. But this seems like the best route for Apple to take if they wanted to do this.

I'd also note that Apple has been perfectly fine with taking and adapting Open Source code. Even the low-level operating system is based on Mach and FreeBSD. And don't forget that Safari (WebKit) is based on KDE's Konqueror. And WINE is not all that bad. If nothing else, it makes a good base for such a project, implementing a large portion of the Win32 APIs relatively well.

The big thing about Crossover office is....Office. Apple already has office for OS X. Look at the supported apps page http://www.codeweavers.com/products/cxoffice/suppo rted_apps/ 50 whole apps are supported. Many of them only work partially. You know what? Most of those already have versions for OS X that work 100%. Photoshop. itunes, Quicken, Notes, etc the list goes on. Maybe there is some special win32 only app that would really help if it was ported to OS X, but going by that list I just don't see it.

Here is the deal, codeweavers have been working their asses off to get win32 apps to run on linux. Thus far they have barely scratched the surface and can only run like .005% of Windows apps. In fact they are falling behind. How does that possibly help Apple? It doesn't.

The only thing Codeweavers brings to the table for Apple is possibly the ability to help devs port apps to OS X X86. My guess is that if most vendors are not making their apps available on OS X it sure as hell isn't due to difficulty in porting but rather has more to do with the limited ROI of making apps for OS X in the firstplace.

Sheesh, I've been running PS and FrameMaker in Linux for ~3 years now. Ever hear of Crossover Office? Yeah, it costs a little bit, but only the price of a couple of pizzas, easy to afford if you can afford $600+ for Photoshop, and if you're really desperate you can just use Wine, upon which Crossover is based, and which is absolutely free (just a little harder to use and configure).

I get really tired about people bemoaning the lack of MS Office and Photoshop when Office XP and Photoshop 6 and 7 have run better (i.e. *faster* and more stably) in Linux than in Windows for several years now.

Yes, if you absolutely must have PSCS, then you're going to suffer a little on the stability front for the moment, and if you're running a print shop (i.e. must have fully color-managed workflow all the way through in-house press) then you'll still need Windows. But I'm a working media professional and honestly MOST of the other pros I know a) are still using older versions of PS (hell, some of them are still using PS4/PS5 on a pre-X Mac) and/or aren't color managed for their part of the process.

I do just fine with GIMP (90% of my graphics/photo work), PS7 (other 10%), and Office XP (100% of my office work) and I do it all in Fedora Core with no usability issues whatsoever.

I'm sorry, but OOo isn't there yet IMO. The VBA Macros that the enterprise linux supports is a BIG step, IMO, but that's not all.

I suggest using Linux over Windows...Will do the trick for X. No drivers necessary.

What's more, if he's hard up to run that Windows app, he should look into codeweaver's crossover office.

An alternative reply would be "have you tried running them under Crossover"?