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Dunno if it's any worse than the 100 miles per charge you get in a Model X...

That market is starting to really heat up, the choices are growing fast, take your pick, https://cars.usnews.com/cars-t... or https://www.tomsguide.com/us/p... or https://www.edmunds.com/electr....

The electric midsize SUV is the market place to be, both as buyer and seller and it is rapidly becoming much more competitive.

Now there is a real gamble in there, how long to hold onto your infernal combustion engine. As more electrics entire the market, so the prices will drop but as more electric vehicles enter the market so the resale of your infernal combustion engine will drop. So how long to hold on and when to sell, because that infernal combustion engine price drop will tend to be quite precipitous at the end.

Choose and perish, one way or the other, pay too much for the electric or lose too much on your old gas guzzler. Keep in mind people will be able to fill their electric tax free, from their home solar battery power system, so yeah, when the market goes into full speed, your gas guzzler investment is dead.

But you've still yet to show an automaker issuing a recall on a vehicle after it was out of any possible warranty.

Recalls are mandated by the government when a problem is found with an automobile which is safety related. Both the problems mentioned above affect safety and are the subject of recalls. As such, the manufacturer will have to make the repair at no charge to the car owner regardless of whether or not the car is still under a manufacturer's warranty.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a30755/the-difference-between-recalls-and-technical-service-bulletins/

Then here you will find a great many recalls issued on vehicles out of warranty.

First 1200 mile round trip: Supercharged on the road for about 50 minutes more than gas station breaks. Second supercharge, a 300 mile round trip, 15 minutes just for peace of mind. Third trip recently, outbound no additional time, just 15 minutes supercharge. Return trip, no destination charger where I stayed, so took 30 minutes more than gas. Total extra 105 minutes on road trip vs saving 520 minutes a year on local driving.

First of all, your writing is atrocious.
Where did you steal the $55k to buy a Tesla Model3?
You come across as a burger flipper at McDonalds.

Tesla Model 3 LR (75 kWh) is a 200 mile range EV.
edmunds.com long term Model 3 June/2018 update(geo blocked outside the US, use your search engine cached page or try archives like this).
edmunds.com long term Model3 had mileage between 29.5 kWh/100miles to 36.8 kWh/100miles.
Model3 LR 75 kWh battery can reliably get 200 miles range, any more you're playing Russian roulette with dead battery.

Your 1200 mile trip in your Model3 required as much as 6 full recharges.
That's an extra 6 hours (360 minutes) at the Superchargers. (120 kW charge rate is bullshit in reality most of the time because there's going to be another guy sharing your charger, so you're down to 60 kW charge rate. Plus you need a full charge, and the Supercharger trickles down after the battery reach half charge).
But wait there's more, Superchargers are not going to be right off the freeway like gas stations, so you're diverting say 6x30=180 minutes just to access a supercharger.
360+180=540 minutes>520 minutes.
In one 1200 mile trip, you wiped out all your 520 minutes saved during the year.

And as your, quote, "silly scenario" made clear, that's irrelevant in a person's daily life. In one's daily life, EVs save a great amount of time by not requiring you to regularly detour to a gas station and pay out the nose for the privilege of standing outside in whatever weather to pump carcinogens into a tank.

Too bad I wasn't the guy that posted that.
Since when is distance driving "irrelevant"?
200 mile range EV is just incapable of realistic distance driving unless you can tolerate 50% increase in transit time.

But seriously

Hahahahahhahaahahaaha!!!!!

You're linking some obscure website where "Bo" credits "Most of the data actually comes from a Swedish American cross-east-cost driver"?
It appears edmunds.com blocks connection from outside the United States.
Look at the cached pages on your search results.
For example, edmunds.com long term Model 3 (I'm not sure if these guys were "Bo" or another anonymous coward "Swedish-American") for June/2018(here's a webpage snapshot) listed their Model 3 test car mileage as between 29.5 kWh/100miles to 36.8 kWh/100miles....that makes the Tesla Model 3 LR a ~200mile range car.

The 3.5 hour drive/1.0 hour recharge was edmunds.com LA to NY cross country test drive.(here's a webpage snapshot).
The main numbers are total driving time 52h41m, total charging time 14h40m.
This 3.5 hours results from a trip that goes from superchargers to superchargers along the entire route without side trips.
A real road trip you'd be diverting 10-20miles or more per leg just to get to a supercharging station.
Even worse, edmunds.com only charged enough to get to the next supercharger.
In a real road trip, you'd have to charge even longer to have extra battery reserve to drive around scenery/attractions.
Real world, you're looking at ~120miles then a 1 hour recharge so you can drive for another 120 miles with usage reserve/emergency.

By the way, I have two vehicles, one of which is a pickup truck which has been in the shop for much of a month

What model is your pickup? Toyota?
If you can't get Toyota parts in Iceland, what are your chances with Tesla parts?

And as your, quote, "silly scenario" made clear, that's irrelevant in a person's daily life. In one's daily life, EVs save a great amount of time by not requiring you to regularly detour to a gas station and pay out the nose for the privilege of standing outside in whatever weather to pump carcinogens into a tank.

Too bad I wasn't the guy that posted that.
Since when is distance driving "irrelevant"?
200 mile range EV is just incapable of realistic distance driving unless you can tolerate 50% increase in transit time.

But seriously

Hahahahahhahaahahaaha!!!!!

You're linking some obscure website where "Bo" credits "Most of the data actually comes from a Swedish American cross-east-cost driver"?
It appears edmunds.com blocks connection from outside the United States.
Look at the cached pages on your search results.
For example, edmunds.com long term Model 3 (I'm not sure if these guys were "Bo" or another anonymous coward "Swedish-American") for June/2018(here's a webpage snapshot) listed their Model 3 test car mileage as between 29.5 kWh/100miles to 36.8 kWh/100miles....that makes the Tesla Model 3 LR a ~200mile range car.

The 3.5 hour drive/1.0 hour recharge was edmunds.com LA to NY cross country test drive.(here's a webpage snapshot).
The main numbers are total driving time 52h41m, total charging time 14h40m.
This 3.5 hours results from a trip that goes from superchargers to superchargers along the entire route without side trips.
A real road trip you'd be diverting 10-20miles or more per leg just to get to a supercharging station.
Even worse, edmunds.com only charged enough to get to the next supercharger.
In a real road trip, you'd have to charge even longer to have extra battery reserve to drive around scenery/attractions.
Real world, you're looking at ~120miles then a 1 hour recharge so you can drive for another 120 miles with usage reserve/emergency.

By the way, I have two vehicles, one of which is a pickup truck which has been in the shop for much of a month

What model is your pickup? Toyota?
If you can't get Toyota parts in Iceland, what are your chances with Tesla parts?

It's not a "plan", it's the EPA numbers. Model 3 city range (usable pack size divided by measured city energy consumption) is longer than M3 city range (tank size divided by city mpg). Given typical fill levels - 90% daily for EVs, and an average of 60% for the M3 (with a great deal of variation) - the Model 3 goes further (well further) in combined cycle as well.

.
ICE has effectively unlimited range due to comprehensive fuel network and rapidity of refuel operation.
Tesla Model 3 LR (75 kWh) has a demonstrated real world range of ~200 miles.
End of debate.

But in case your - I quote, "silly scenario" - matters to you: it's 383 miles between LA and SF. If you were driving there in the morning and back in the evening, you'd need a nominal 73 miles range added during the drive (plus whatever "buffer" you want - say, 30 miles). That's a 13 minute stop on each of your 5 1/2 hour drives. That's 13 minutes with the current V2 superchargers - should be under 10 minutes on V3.

Tesla superchargers is at best 1.0 hour charge time for every 3.5 hours driving.
So every ~200miles, you stop at least one hour to recharge.
SF to LA, requires at least 1 hour recharge midway (there's a grand total of one supercharger on California State Route 1 if that's what you're taking at San Luis Obispo)(10 stalls 120 kW max, you better hope no more than 9 other idiots are charging their shitbox Tesla when you limp in).
You also have the pleasure of arriving at you destination looking for another "fix" for your range anxiety.

You have no bloody clue what's in a NMC battery.

Some people might say you have no bloody clue what's in a NMC battery.

It actually gets very good but not rave reviews...see https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/... or https://www.caranddriver.com/t...

you can go 300 miles without a bladder break?

Well Edmunds.com did a across America record attempt (2013 Tesla Model S P85) and could only eke out ~200 miles on a full charge, and with their time saving just enough charging strategy, still required 1.0 hour of charging for every 3.50 hours of driving.

So barsteward, your idea of a road trip involves a 3 hours drive (200 miles tops), followed by a 1 hour bladder break?
I'm no doctor, but I would suggest get your bladder some medical attention, especially if you intend to drive gasoline cars where 5 minute bladder breaks are the norm.

Highest-polling consumer satisfaction year-over-year of any brand.

Meanwhile, the reviews for it keep running at least 95% positive, often glowing.

You keep refer/infer to Consumer Reports "subscriber/owner" survey, which is easily corruptible bullshit that any loser (KarenRei, Karen Pease, WindBourne, haruchai, Bruce Perens, Type44Q, KS Kyosuke, barsteward, apoc.famine, sfcat, aaarrrgggh, bgarcia, MachineShedFred, SuperKendall, OakianWarrior, c6gunner, Gavagai80, thegarbz...), any Musk cocksucking loser can sign up and claim to be a owner.

Funny how aside from Rei, only OakianWarrior showed up to fellate Elon's tiny penis so far. Coincidence? I think not.

Too bad actual experts like Sandy Munro said that he's not gay for tiny South African penis, and that the Tesla Model 3 had the quality of a 1990s era Kia (forward to 6:55).

The Supercharger(any charger for that matter) is complete bullshit for practical drivers.
Edmunds.com drove across America in a 2013 Tesla S P85, and had to stop to charge for one hour for every 3-1/2 hours of driving (so typically every 150mile/250km you must stop for ONE FUCKING HOUR to recharge. And Edmunds only charged enough to get to the next Supercharger...no side trips. In real life, you'd have to stop even longer to recharge if you want to drive around town for a real life driving.

"Unsurprisingly Tesla doesn't seem to agree [tesla.com] with you on this point. They seem to be working on a pickup which I'm personally quite curious about"
I'm curious about it too. I did note they haven't talked about a price range for such a beast whereas the Model 3 base prices was floated to be $25k-40k back when it was still called the BlueStar.
Tesla was talking 8500 lbs towing capacity less than a year before Model X was launched but that quickly get cut to 5000 lbs on 18 inch wheels and 3500 lbs on 20 inch.
"Towing doesn't do wonders for the range of ICE powered vehicles either. And frankly I'm not convinced this is a serious issue"
It becomes a tradeoff of money vs time. The EV cost less to charge that the typical ICE costs to fill but it takes much, much longer.
So a long distance heavy towing use ICE means more stops of 10-15 min to fill up while doing it by EV means more cheap or free charging stops of 45-90 min

That said some ICE trucks have pretty big tanks so stops to fill up may be not so frequent, Or they may be carrying supplemental fuel which won't cause much loss to payload capacity even if it could be dangerous in a collision.

The Edmunds review of a 500 mile tow inside California at a max of 55 mph needed 14.69 HOURS charging out of a total travel time of 40 hrs

https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/...

A comment from 500rwhp made the following claim:

"Sadly this shows how far battery powered vehicles have to go. I can drive 450 miles towing an 8000lb trailer in my truck before getting gas, and a Tesla takes 2 days to do this, with a fair amount of anxiety. The 36 gallon tank in a towing vehicle is hard to beat"

Hmmm. Lets see:
1) wiki The Tesla Model 3 is a mid-size (US) / compact executive (EU)[7] luxury all-electric four-door sedan manufactured and sold by Tesla, Inc.
2) Car and DriverHowever, in its current form (only models equipped to a price of $50,000 and up are available as of this writing), it is actually more of a compact luxury sedan competing with the BMW 3-series in size and price.
3) Top Gear What is it? Oh, just some sensibly priced electric BMW 3 Series rival from a little-known American start-up.
4) Motor Trend This shows the luxury compact cars, which includes Tesla model 3.
5) Edmunds There's 15 cubic feet of trunk space, again similar to what other entry-level luxury cars offer.

So, the gov, all the other car makers, and all the experts consider the TM3 to be a compact luxury car. You can claim whatever you want, but ...

The OP(your twink Rei?...are you a Musk cocksucker as well?) clearly said TM3 goes farther than 340i in city driving

There's no way any Tesla will even go near 336 miles range of a BMW 340.
A Tesla Model S P100 can only muster 170 miles real world range.
A TMS P100 shockingly packing a 50% larger battery than your homoerotic Elon wet dream >336 miles Model 3 LR.

200 miles in 30 minutes in supercharger

BULLSHIT
2013 Model S P85 driven from California to New York by edmunds.com required 15 hours of charging (exclusively at Superchargers) at a total driving time of 53 hours.
53/15=3.5 hours of driving for every one hour of charging.

Your 30min at a Supercharger will get you about 100min of highway driving (about 90 miles...NOT 200 miles).

I purchased a Nissan Versa, rated at 38 MPG HWY. I have an approximately 100 mile daily commute largely over highway and back-country roads. (In otherwords, few stoplights, thought some areas of highway congestion.) Over two years, I averaged around 35.5 MPG - approximately 93% of expected HWY mileage. Not bad...

So I upgraded to a Nissan Rogue, rated at 31HWY / 25CITY, and a combined 27MPG. Same commute...and I averaged 23.5MPG, 75% of the rated HWY mileage. Even more abysmal, is the fact that I only managed 94% of the rated CITY mileage.

Here is the thing, this wasn't an anomaly. Almost every independent test was around the same, and most of the reports on fueleconomy.gov also were similar. Yet, these car manufacturers are allowed to print their own fraudulent estimates.
https://www.edmunds.com/nissan...
https://www.edmunds.com/nissan...

So yes, fuel economy was fudged by Nissan.

I purchased a Nissan Versa, rated at 38 MPG HWY. I have an approximately 100 mile daily commute largely over highway and back-country roads. (In otherwords, few stoplights, thought some areas of highway congestion.) Over two years, I averaged around 35.5 MPG - approximately 93% of expected HWY mileage. Not bad...

So I upgraded to a Nissan Rogue, rated at 31HWY / 25CITY, and a combined 27MPG. Same commute...and I averaged 23.5MPG, 75% of the rated HWY mileage. Even more abysmal, is the fact that I only managed 94% of the rated CITY mileage.

Here is the thing, this wasn't an anomaly. Almost every independent test was around the same, and most of the reports on fueleconomy.gov also were similar. Yet, these car manufacturers are allowed to print their own fraudulent estimates.
https://www.edmunds.com/nissan...
https://www.edmunds.com/nissan...

So yes, fuel economy was fudged by Nissan.

...quality control problems, etc. I know a guy that owns a Telsa. He said he won't ever own another one.

forget about the Model 3, it's a overpriced piece of shit.

Really?

Then where are the 300+ mile range EVs from literally ANYBODY else?

How about where are the 300+ mile range EVs from Tesla?

Model S (P100) can only do 170 miles (300 km).

Model 3 LR (only the long range is being manufactured right now) is ~200 mile EV (31.7 kWh/100 mile).

The big question is, could the Tesla then drive a few hundred miles after that, or did it need to be completely recharged? Other reviews of the model X towing something says it does it with aplomb - but you get a ~100 mile range whilst doing so.

Why are you obsessing over my sleep schedule? Are you my mother? I've got news for you, I usually don't go to bed until after 3 AM, unless I'm covering shifts.

get up and comment at 0744, you don't sleep much

no superchargers in Iceland though, so again, you have no experience going long distance

perhaps you can cite some real world test drives that has better charging times than the 1 hour charge/4 hour drive of edmunds.com?

Teslaless at the moment.

ok so you don't have a Tesla.

Not sure why you feel qualified to be critical of edmunds.com cross america drive, with:

which was charged in a stupid way which almost nobody does when driving long distances?

as you yourself have never drove a EV long distance.

btw, you are confusing liquidity with stock price movement.
If shorting depress stock price, TSLA would be worth less than $1 now.

btw, why are you posting at 0218 Iceland time?

200 miles range but can charge 80% in 15 minutes?

How about your only choice is 200 miles range (P85), average charging time of 60 minutes for every 4 hours of driving, real world long distance?
I can also tell you the answer to that question.

the range on Tesla vehicles is certified by the EPA

Those Edmunds.com haters managed to repeat the pathetic range (equivalent of ~140 miles) with a Model X towing a small trailer.

Some German energy minister had to reject his Model S (P100 apparently) because 300km (170 miles) unrecharged range.

Looks like EPA estimates are not being realized in real world driving.

BTW pezpunk, where are your battery survey results? (seems like Rei is all talk and no action to the same question)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/t024bMoRiDPIDialGnuKPsg/edit#gid=1669966328

Impressive credentials.
Just a sampling of some of the luminaries distilled from the fields of engineering and science who participated in this unprecedented survey:

Go4IT
luckyluke
Silent Bolt
Cookie Monster
Bonkers
Juicer...

No UK or USA so no slouches like Jeremy Clarkson 55 mile Roadster range, or even Edmunds.com 120 miles range Tesla S down from a indicated 251 miles range.

They dropped the nonsensical 290 mile claim...But since they've been playing fast and loose with the numbers so far, I wouldn't be surprised to see some fudge factor there too

Famed Musk cock holster Rei stepping up 1523 local Iceland time!!!
The allure of that tiny South African penis squirming in his mouth was simply too much to resist in the middle of the night!!!

It seems like Edmunds.com editor-in-chief Scott Oldham only got 120 mile range from a Model S. That's a far cry from the claimed 300 mile range isn't it?

Ooops, looks like Edmunds.com received some kind of DMCA takedown of that page. Archived pages still has a screen shot though.

Road test towing for the Model X. Basically going 100 miles, stopping for an hour to recharge, then going another 100 miles to the next supercharger. And this was at 55 MPH, which - while the law in California, is essentially completely ignored by everyone. Rarely do you find a towed vehicle (or any truck) only doing 55 MPH on the freeway.

So the end result:2:1 ratio of tow-to-charge time, 500+ Wh/mile, and a range of about 100 miles between required stops. I guess you'd like that long weekend getaway to consist of sitting in random parking lots with your X plugged in. When I had my old 1999 Ford Ranger, I used to tow a small trailer like the one in this test, and would get 250 miles before I had to fill up - in 5 minutes. I could leave Seattle at Noon, and reach the Coastal range outside of Newport, OR, in about 6 hours. With the Model X, that would be and 18 hour adventure.

A 85kWh Model S will (apparently) get 265mi

Scott Oldham, editor in chief of Edmunds.com, only got 120 miles from their long term Tesla 85kWh.

https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/2013-tesla-model-s-real-world-range.html

Above link is now broken (active even a month ago)...hmmm...I wonder who didn't like real world data from their shitty cars?

However check the cached webpage for a brief summary:

https://web.archive.org/web/20160620105935/https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/2013-tesla-model-s-real-world-range.html

Maybe they do have better engineers. At least in this particular niche.

They have some real good engineers there alright.

Beat me to the punch ;)

Gravimetric energy density is one of the least important aspects these days. Back in the lead-acid days, improving it it was a huge deal because lead-acids made cars impractically heavy for a reasonable range. Those days are gone. As noted in this post:

The base curb weight of the Tesla Model 3, according to the official press kit, is 3549 lbs, which is 1610kg. 1730kg is the LR version, the heavier version. The BMW 3-Series ranges from 1475-1770kg. The A4 ranges from [wikipedia.org] 1410-1695 kg. I can't find an official total range for the C300, but find values ranging from 1630 kg to 1688kg to 1695kg to 1715kg. While the 1630kg is described as the "base weight" (analogous to the M3's 1610kg), I have no clue what the heaviest C300 config is, there could easily be configurations heavier than the 1715kg one.

To sum up:
Tesla Model 3: 1610-1730kg
BMW 3-Series: 1475-1770kg
Audi A4: 1410-1695kg
Mercedes C300: 1630-1715+kg

To repeat: The Tesla Model 3's curb weight comes in at pretty much the same range as other midrange compact sedans (BMW 3-Series, Audi A4, Mercedes C300, etc).

It might be that a properly working self driving car is magnitudes safer than a human driven car.

Still, this centralizes certain failure modes. When $BLACKHAT finds a remote exploit for all models from a certain manufacture, and can hack them all at once and cause 50000 fatalities or severe injuries in a single morning, maybe that also should be considered as a risk factor. Any sufficiently complex automated system is going to have security flaws, and the more network connectivity these vehicles have, the more chances there will be for remote exploits of security critical systems.

Well, I don't think there is any question about it. It can only be attributable to human error. This sort of thing has cropped up before, and it has always been due to human error. - HAL9000

The main reason that's not worth considering is that your hypothetical black hat doesn't have anything to gain from the exercise.

We'd be much more likely to see something like a black hat co-opt the emergency vehicle override so otehr cars pull over as their car approaches because they think it's an ambulance with the siren on.

It might be that a properly working self driving car is magnitudes safer than a human driven car.

Still, this centralizes certain failure modes. When $BLACKHAT finds a remote exploit for all models from a certain manufacture, and can hack them all at once and cause 50000 fatalities or severe injuries in a single morning, maybe that also should be considered as a risk factor. Any sufficiently complex automated system is going to have security flaws, and the more network connectivity these vehicles have, the more chances there will be for remote exploits of security critical systems.

Well, I don't think there is any question about it. It can only be attributable to human error. This sort of thing has cropped up before, and it has always been due to human error. - HAL9000

Um, cars with real-world 300 mile ranges are on sale now.

Um who's selling this vaporware? It's not Tesla is it?

P85 gets all of 120 miles range!!!

Tesla Roadster 53kWh only got 55 miles!!!

Looks like a quantum leap for hyundai 300 miles.

it's much more similar in refinement to a Dacia or a Hyundai

Not according to literally every reveiwer who has been in in the vehicle, which is over a dozen. A base Model 3 is also more feature-rich than its competitors such as the 3-series (there are also comparisons to the A4 and C300 if you'd like)

Now, you can spout nonsense that doesn't correspond at all to any reviews, but that's not to your credit. Seriously, the concept that a soft-touch sports sedan with a 5,6 second *base* 0-60, eight cameras, a dozen ultrasonic sensors and a radar *standard*, automatic crash avoidance *standard*, and a ton of other things is equivalent to a Dacia... why not just call it a used Yugo while you're at it?

Tesla Model 3: 1740kg (claimed)

Wrong. The base curb weight of the Model 3, according to the official press kit, is 3549 lbs, which is 1610kg. 1730kg is the LR version, the heavier version. The BMW 3-Series ranges from 1475-1770kg. The A4 ranges from 1410-1695 kg. I can't find an official total range for the C300, but find values ranging from 1630 kg to 1688kg to 1695kg to 1715kg. While the 1630kg is described as the "base weight" (analogous to the M3's 1610kg), I have no clue what the heaviest C300 config is, there could easily be configurations heavier than the 1715kg one.

To sum up:
Tesla Model 3: 1610-1730kg
BMW 3-Series: 1475-1770kg
Audi A4: 1410-1695kg
Mercedes C300: 1630-1715+kg

I'll repeat: The Tesla Model 3's curb weight comes in at pretty much the same as its ICE competitors in its class (BMW 3-Series, Audi A4, Mercedes C300, etc).

The P85D, from empty, can put on 212 miles range in half an hour from a supercharger

Edmunds
Edmunds bought a 2013 Tesla S 85kWh, and only got 120 miles range.

Top Gear
Jeremy Clarkson got only 55 mile range with a Tesla Roadster (53 kWh battery).

The only way a P85D is going to go 212 miles is if you stop blowing Elon Musk's tiny penis and start blowing for propulsion.

Was it a ham can, or an airstream, or what? We've got a '62 Streamline 'Duchess' and that's supposed to be a 3500 pound trailer with a 500 pound tongue weight. That's just narrowly within the capabilities of a big station wagon of those days. That trailer came with electric brakes, though. The only thing I've towed it with was my 1992 F250 7.3 Super Cab XLT, which is currently down due to engine failure from cavitation, in spite of running a cooling filter with SCAs in it. But I digress. That truck weighs an actual ~5100lb and aside from wind resistance, it basically didn't give a good goddamn that there was a trailer back there. That's a good thing, because the brakes on the trailer don't work. My driveway is steep and gravelly, but the truck has a rear limited slip and mud tires so I just put it into 4 hi and cruised up.

The point of which is that the correct tow vehicle for a trailer of that magnitude is not a car. Most modern cars have no towing capacity worth mentioning, because we decided that it was never really safe to do in the first place. Some modern CUVs are blessed with substantial towing capacity, but in general you won't get up above about 3k without going to a minivan, and most cars have only a 1k towing capacity. (There are some notable counterexamples.)

With a sway control hitch, properly working trailer brakes, and a quality trailer brake controller, if all goes well a properly-balanced trailer behind a decent car can handle many situations. But what happens if you get a couple of flats at the same time by rolling over some road-colored piece of debris? You want a vehicle designed and built for towing if you're going to tow anything of any notable mass. And then you still have to assume that everything will go wrong, and that everyone will cut you off.

Tesla isn't in the same league as BMW or Benz. Tesla is in the same league as the Yugo. They have terrible build quality, terrible reliability, a criminally negligent design, and just quite frankly they aren't even luxury cars.

The quoted parent post is a perfect example of reality being suppressed by negative scoring. Slashdot should be better than that. Musk is treated like an idol, and his firms are treated as sacrosanct but they are simply businesses with a a lot of product failures due to inexperience and poor management.

Try looking a little deeper, _every_ manufacturer has defects, all of them, period. The question isn't if there are defects, it's how does the company respond. The very few links (4) are supposed to support the claim that Musk and Tesla are crappy/bad/unethical/etc... yet, look again at those links:

Link #1: As of right now, the last post from the forum on the links "terrible build quality" is this: (1 link down, 3 to go)

Just want to update you folks on what's going on. The folks at Tesla (our regional service manager and the local sales manager) are working with me to spec out the rebuild. I had wanted to take this chance to increase the battery size to 100D and add the 3rd row child seat and informed the team of my desire a couple weeks ago. This would have been relatively simple but since the process took some time to get rolling, it now got more complicated because of all the price changes and the fact that 100D is now includes bundling of options that I didn't originally selected / wanted such as SAS and 72A charger. Based on the professionalism that I've seen from the service team so far, I still am hopeful that this will be handled in fair fashion, keeping my fingers crossed.

Link #2: "terrible reliability"

All repairs were performed under warranty and Tesla delivered the car to us the following morning.

Whaaa??? They fixed EVERYTHING FOR FREE??? Please explain to the many people with Fords, Chevys, Dodges, etc... how many times they got everything fixed properly for free and the company admitted fault. Now google Tesla's track record for fixing issues... yah, I hear crickets too.

Link #3: "a criminally negligent design"

I won’t try to assign blame or responsibility in this case, whether or not Tesla made it insufficiently clear on how to open these doors when the car has no power...

"Criminally negligent design"... really? Did they even read the article before posting this link? Also, a follow up comment is interesting as well:

It’s not uncommon for doors to be inoperable after an impact. This goes for all kinds of doors - even normal manual ones.

Why is this a story?

I don't know either...

Link #4 "they aren't even luxury cars"

Here's the relevant quote:

But Tesla says the Model S isn't a luxury car so why the comparison?

The comparison is about the Model S outselling, so is it

Tesla isn't in the same league as BMW or Benz. Tesla is in the same league as the Yugo. They have terrible build quality, terrible reliability, a criminally negligent design, and just quite frankly they aren't even luxury cars.

The quoted parent post is a perfect example of reality being suppressed by negative scoring. Slashdot should be better than that. Musk is treated like an idol, and his firms are treated as sacrosanct but they are simply businesses with a a lot of product failures due to inexperience and poor management.

Try looking a little deeper, _every_ manufacturer has defects, all of them, period. The question isn't if there are defects, it's how does the company respond. The very few links (4) are supposed to support the claim that Musk and Tesla are crappy/bad/unethical/etc... yet, look again at those links:

Link #1: As of right now, the last post from the forum on the links "terrible build quality" is this: (1 link down, 3 to go)

Just want to update you folks on what's going on. The folks at Tesla (our regional service manager and the local sales manager) are working with me to spec out the rebuild. I had wanted to take this chance to increase the battery size to 100D and add the 3rd row child seat and informed the team of my desire a couple weeks ago. This would have been relatively simple but since the process took some time to get rolling, it now got more complicated because of all the price changes and the fact that 100D is now includes bundling of options that I didn't originally selected / wanted such as SAS and 72A charger. Based on the professionalism that I've seen from the service team so far, I still am hopeful that this will be handled in fair fashion, keeping my fingers crossed.

Link #2: "terrible reliability"

All repairs were performed under warranty and Tesla delivered the car to us the following morning.

Whaaa??? They fixed EVERYTHING FOR FREE??? Please explain to the many people with Fords, Chevys, Dodges, etc... how many times they got everything fixed properly for free and the company admitted fault. Now google Tesla's track record for fixing issues... yah, I hear crickets too.

Link #3: "a criminally negligent design"

I won’t try to assign blame or responsibility in this case, whether or not Tesla made it insufficiently clear on how to open these doors when the car has no power...

"Criminally negligent design"... really? Did they even read the article before posting this link? Also, a follow up comment is interesting as well:

It’s not uncommon for doors to be inoperable after an impact. This goes for all kinds of doors - even normal manual ones.

Why is this a story?

I don't know either...

Link #4 "they aren't even luxury cars"

Here's the relevant quote:

But Tesla says the Model S isn't a luxury car so why the comparison?

The comparison is about the Model S outselling, so is it

Tesla isn't in the same league as BMW or Benz. Tesla is in the same league as the Yugo. They have terrible build quality, terrible reliability, a criminally negligent design, and just quite frankly they aren't even luxury cars.

The quoted parent post is a perfect example of reality being suppressed by negative scoring. Slashdot should be better than that. Musk is treated like an idol, and his firms are treated as sacrosanct but they are simply businesses with a a lot of product failures due to inexperience and poor management.

Tesla isn't in the same league as BMW or Benz. Tesla is in the same league as the Yugo. They have terrible build quality, terrible reliability, a criminally negligent design, and just quite frankly they aren't even luxury cars.

these services will massively increase the amount of energy a car needs to run

What Really Saves Gas?

Test #3 Use Cruise Control
Result: Surprisingly effective way to save gas
Cold Hard Facts: Up to 14-percent savings, average savings of 7 percent
Recommendation: If you've got it, use it.

If you're going to compare battery replacement costs to gasoline costs, you're in the realm of the lifetime costs of the vehicle. So, to really compare apples to apples, you've got to also factor in maintenance costs of your ICE vs maintenance costs of the EV.

EVs don't require oil changes and thanks to regenerative braking usually don't require new brake pads for the life of the vehicle. There will be no transmission repairs to do or transmission fluids to top up, just to name a few things.

If you take the maintenance and repairs costs of a Honda civic over 10 years, according to this site, you'll have spent $7516, then subtract the maintenance and repair costs of a Nissan Leaf, and you'll have $1694 in the bank.

Then instead of inflating your numbers by rounding up to $6000, let's keep it at $5500, then subtract the $1694 you'd save over 10 years. Then do the same math that you did above and you get 9.13 years of driving before you need to replace the battery.

It looks to me like more of a break even, and that's with the crappy Nissan Leaf which is notorious for having a poor battery life thanks to its lack of active cooling.

Something interesting....Eddy Cue is also on Ferrari's board of directors:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...
http://www.edmunds.com/car-new...

McLaren and Ferrari have a rivalry stretching back about 40 years, both on the street and on the track.

"Similar" is the thing. I'm sure MS has a bevy of lawyers ready to explain how Linux is not "similar". Much like manufacturers are now claiming they you have to use their "special" oil, or void the warranty.

an entire industry is unable to factor the $7,500 tax credit new purchases get

This page claims that you forfeit much of this tax credit if you don't already have a large enough income to pay $7,500 in income tax in a single year:

You'll often hear that a credit is worth "up to" a certain amount. "Up to" is the critical modifier. The federal incentive is usually referred to as a flat $7,500 credit, but it's only worth $7,500 to someone whose tax bill at the end of the year is $7,500 or more. Let's say you buy a Nissan Leaf or other eligible vehicle and you owe $5,000 in income tax for a particular year. That's all the tax credit will be. Uncle Sam's not writing a refund check for the other $2,500. And an unused portion of the credit can't be applied against the following year's taxes.

In fact in many cases automatics do beat manuals in mileage.

Lies to prove your point, or just ignorance?

Taurus is a much bigger car than the Tesla for starters. And the S-60 has very low autonomy, but lets go with it.

Taurus specs: http://www.edmunds.com/ford/ta...
Tesla specs: http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/m...

The Tesla is 700lbs heavier than one of the heaviest sedans you could find for your comparison AND its a smaller car.

If you want to call bullshit, makes sure you smell your reply first.

Lies to prove your point, or just ignorance?

Taurus is a much bigger car than the Tesla for starters. And the S-60 has very low autonomy, but lets go with it.

Taurus specs: http://www.edmunds.com/ford/ta...
Tesla specs: http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/m...

The Tesla is 700lbs heavier than one of the heaviest sedans you could find for your comparison AND its a smaller car.

If you want to call bullshit, makes sure you smell your reply first.

Government. Just like the MPG tests, the emissions tests are created and regulated by government agencies (EPA in the USA). Recently there was somewhat of a scandal involving Hyundai goosing the mileage figures; http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-ec...

But it took the EPA 2 years, even after hundreds of consumer complaints, to respond to it. And the EPA allows the car companies to conduct their own tests using EPA guidelines. So the agency set up to provide government oversight is providing basically no oversight.

Look back at every major oil spill over the past 20 years and in each and every case the government regulators charged with providing oversight failed to do so in a timely and effective manner. The same holds true in the Financials markets. Banks were able to get away with things because irregularities were either not detected or not acted upon.

The moral of the story? Government - with few exceptions - is the problem not the solution.

That's because you aren't looking.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/0...

http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-ec...

http://www.cartalk.com/blogs/t...

Good luck with the side impact regulations from 2007 that you need to pass:
http://www.edmunds.com/car-saf...

Source please for your claim?

See Edmunds here.

http://www.edmunds.com/car-buy...

Maybe you're overpaying...