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Yes, nakedness was wrong AFTER she ate from the tree. The tree only made her realize that she was naked and she was ashamed. Why would God create Adam and Eve naked if it was wrong?

That's a very good question, since the scriptures don't support your belief that eating from the tree changed the definition of right and wrong. And why would they? The idea is ridiculous.

Only Satan makes the wrongs of the world.

Consider actually reading the bible, particularly Isaiah 45.

The tree was of the knowledge of good and evil, allowing both of them to discern the difference between the two. But even Eve said that if she ate from the tree she would surely die - how could she NOT know that it was wrong to eat from the tree?

You're confusing dangerous and wrong. Just because something will kill you doesn't make it wrong. Incidentally, despite god's claim that eating from the tree would kill them that day the reality turned out to be quite different. When god bluffs, he bluffs big.

Why would God give them a choice to sin if they weren't able to discern the difference between right and wrong?

Good question. You begin to approach an understanding of why the christian mythology does not make sense and why most people don't believe it.

And *I* go by heretical, anti-Christian doctrine?

I've supplied bible verses to support my arguments. You have not. Why do you think your mere opinion on the subject outweighs what you claim is the word of god? Is that not heresy? Is that not anti-christian?

I assumed you hadn't read it because you said He designed people to not know the difference from right and wrong. That is an incorrect statement. Adam and Eve were perfect in every way until they ate from the tree. They also understood that it was wrong to eat from the tree.

I understand why you claim this (as it's an important part of the jesus mythology) but the bible does not reflect your claim. Genesis 2 and 3 are very clear: being naked is defined as wrong. Adam and Eve were naked and unashamed until they ate of the tree. Clearly they did not know right from wrong until after they ate. And clearly this was by god's design because everything in the universe is by definition god's design (if you believe this sort of thing, anyway). Eve understood that god had said "hey, don't eat that" but she didn't know that it was wrong to disobey god. Not until she ate from the tree.

I suppose we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Yes. I'll go by what the bible actually says and you can go by heretical anti-christian doctrine.

I assumed you hadn't read it because you said He designed people to not know the difference from right and wrong. That is an incorrect statement. Adam and Eve were perfect in every way until they ate from the tree. They also understood that it was wrong to eat from the tree.

I understand why you claim this (as it's an important part of the jesus mythology) but the bible does not reflect your claim. Genesis 2 and 3 are very clear: being naked is defined as wrong. Adam and Eve were naked and unashamed until they ate of the tree. Clearly they did not know right from wrong until after they ate. And clearly this was by god's design because everything in the universe is by definition god's design (if you believe this sort of thing, anyway). Eve understood that god had said "hey, don't eat that" but she didn't know that it was wrong to disobey god. Not until she ate from the tree.

I suppose we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Yes. I'll go by what the bible actually says and you can go by heretical anti-christian doctrine.

Reality is what we percieve to be real. That is going to be different from person to person. There is no such thing as one reality.

So you claim that your god is not real, only that you perceive him to be real? That's an interesting admission from a christian.

It was only four years ago, a doctor cannot be considered a casual observer and since he was in a comma in hospital he had every available health monitoring system attached to him. But in saying that I never honestly expected you to believe me.

Evidence? But I suppose it is easier to claim that you don't expect to be believed and try to look like a victim of closed-minded atheists than it is to actually provide evidence.

Yep! Check out this or read the book, 'The Heavenly Man'. I understand that you may not find the article substantial and will probably never read the book, but do you really expect Communist China to document how one of their Christian prisoners survived with no food or water for 74 days and post it on the net?

So your evidence that he survived for 74 days without food and water is that he says he did? If you believe everything that everyone says even when what they say contradicts reality then you must work very hard to avoid listening to muslims or members of any other religion. Or do you only blindly believe things that confirm what you want to believe?

Wrong. Only a change of heart will do.

And now you're a mind reader too! Then again, jesus did promise his followers omnipotence so I suppose that makes sense. What other cool things have you done with your powers?

So God, Lucifer's loving father, kicks Lucifer right out. And that's not good enough! Nononono, he sends him down to a lake of fire, to, well, I don't know what to do. But he punishes his son by kicking him out of the house! What a system or morality he's got, really.

If this is true then all Lucifer has to do is return and God will welcome him back and kill the fatted calf, right? I mean, that's the right thing to do according to that Prodigal Son story christianity taught me.

Then, later on, he realizes he screwed up (in spite of the fact that "God doesn't make mistakes") and he has to learn about the "human condition" that he created.

Yeah, christians tend to say that god doesn't change his mind or create evil. Guess they should consider reading their holy book.

IF that's not the character of a megalomiac fascist dictator, I don't know what is. But it's obvious what model Hitler was copying. (Am I invoking Godwin's Law? Wait, I can't, can I? ;) )

Well, Godwin's Law doesn't actually say that the discussion has to end, only that as a discussion on Usenet continues a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis is inevitable. The "this discussion must end" bit was added by people who came out on the wrong side of those comparisons. :)

So God, Lucifer's loving father, kicks Lucifer right out. And that's not good enough! Nononono, he sends him down to a lake of fire, to, well, I don't know what to do. But he punishes his son by kicking him out of the house! What a system or morality he's got, really.

If this is true then all Lucifer has to do is return and God will welcome him back and kill the fatted calf, right? I mean, that's the right thing to do according to that Prodigal Son story christianity taught me.

Then, later on, he realizes he screwed up (in spite of the fact that "God doesn't make mistakes") and he has to learn about the "human condition" that he created.

Yeah, christians tend to say that god doesn't change his mind or create evil. Guess they should consider reading their holy book.

IF that's not the character of a megalomiac fascist dictator, I don't know what is. But it's obvious what model Hitler was copying. (Am I invoking Godwin's Law? Wait, I can't, can I? ;) )

Well, Godwin's Law doesn't actually say that the discussion has to end, only that as a discussion on Usenet continues a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis is inevitable. The "this discussion must end" bit was added by people who came out on the wrong side of those comparisons. :)

So God, Lucifer's loving father, kicks Lucifer right out. And that's not good enough! Nononono, he sends him down to a lake of fire, to, well, I don't know what to do. But he punishes his son by kicking him out of the house! What a system or morality he's got, really.

If this is true then all Lucifer has to do is return and God will welcome him back and kill the fatted calf, right? I mean, that's the right thing to do according to that Prodigal Son story christianity taught me.

Then, later on, he realizes he screwed up (in spite of the fact that "God doesn't make mistakes") and he has to learn about the "human condition" that he created.

Yeah, christians tend to say that god doesn't change his mind or create evil. Guess they should consider reading their holy book.

IF that's not the character of a megalomiac fascist dictator, I don't know what is. But it's obvious what model Hitler was copying. (Am I invoking Godwin's Law? Wait, I can't, can I? ;) )

Well, Godwin's Law doesn't actually say that the discussion has to end, only that as a discussion on Usenet continues a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis is inevitable. The "this discussion must end" bit was added by people who came out on the wrong side of those comparisons. :)

So God, Lucifer's loving father, kicks Lucifer right out. And that's not good enough! Nononono, he sends him down to a lake of fire, to, well, I don't know what to do. But he punishes his son by kicking him out of the house! What a system or morality he's got, really.

If this is true then all Lucifer has to do is return and God will welcome him back and kill the fatted calf, right? I mean, that's the right thing to do according to that Prodigal Son story christianity taught me.

Then, later on, he realizes he screwed up (in spite of the fact that "God doesn't make mistakes") and he has to learn about the "human condition" that he created.

Yeah, christians tend to say that god doesn't change his mind or create evil. Guess they should consider reading their holy book.

IF that's not the character of a megalomiac fascist dictator, I don't know what is. But it's obvious what model Hitler was copying. (Am I invoking Godwin's Law? Wait, I can't, can I? ;) )

Well, Godwin's Law doesn't actually say that the discussion has to end, only that as a discussion on Usenet continues a comparison to Hitler or the Nazis is inevitable. The "this discussion must end" bit was added by people who came out on the wrong side of those comparisons. :)

Exodus 3:2

Sounds more like a fireproof bush than a non-consuming fire to me.

Well gee... Fundamentalism refers to beliefs, so I guess that would be someone who believes in some kind of fundamentals that include pacifism.

The reason you're getting confused by this is that fundamentalist Islam is tremendously violent. The Koran is chock full of wonderful things like instructions to convert people by force and kill non muslisms. While it also true that there are peaceful instructions in the Koran, what many people don't realize is that early surahs (verses) are over-ruled by later ones. (All Surah's are supposedly arranged in the order that Mohammed wrote them down). Fundamentalist mustlims take the violent instructions at face value with fairly dramatic results. Fundamentalist Christians (normally Protestants) are the other big group to whom "Fundamentalism" is often ascribed. These people also take the bible quite literally. This normally expresses itself publicly with strong beliefs that abortion kills a human life, homosexual activity is always immoral and that heterosexual intimacy should be confined to marriage and the drive to tell others about their beliefs. People frequently dislike Christian fundamentalists, because they don't like being told that they are sinful and need to change. That's understandable, but there's a big difference between fundamentalist Islam and fundamentalist Christianity. Islam is politically theocratic by nature while Christianity gets along quite well with secularism. Part of the reason for this is that fundamentalist Christians believe that faith is between individuals and God, and many see this as instructions to keep faith and government separate. Now because I want this post to be on-topic, I must say that I find objections to this technology quite contraditory. Most objectors insist they believe in free choice and free choice. Yet somehow it's an offense to a director if someone decides not to watch some parts of a film. Dare I suggest that objectors aren't really interested in choice, they just want to tell others to act as they do? Free choice people. That's what it's all about. The freedom to choose. This isn't censorship because there is no outside agency imposing it. I thought the messianic message of slashdot was that technology should enable free choice...

In that 2 minute delay I had another thought... How is this DVD player any different that Taco providing me with the ability to not see -1 posts or setting my threshold to whatever I want?

Well gee... Fundamentalism refers to beliefs, so I guess that would be someone who believes in some kind of fundamentals that include pacifism.

The reason you're getting confused by this is that fundamentalist Islam is tremendously violent. The Koran is chock full of wonderful things like instructions to convert people by force and kill non muslisms. While it also true that there are peaceful instructions in the Koran, what many people don't realize is that early surahs (verses) are over-ruled by later ones. (All Surah's are supposedly arranged in the order that Mohammed wrote them down). Fundamentalist mustlims take the violent instructions at face value with fairly dramatic results.

Fundamentalist Christians (normally Protestants) are the other big group to whom "Fundamentalism" is often ascribed. These people also take the bible quite literally. This normally expresses itself publicly with strong beliefs that abortion kills a human life, homosexual activity is always immoral and that heterosexual intimacy should be confined to marriage and the drive to tell others about their beliefs. People frequently dislike Christian fundamentalists, because they don't like being told that they are sinful and need to change.

That's understandable, but there's a big difference between fundamentalist Islam and fundamentalist Christianity. Islam is politically theocratic by nature while Christianity gets along quite well with secularism. Part of the reason for this is that fundamentalist Christians believe that faith is between individuals and God, and many see this as instructions to keep faith and government separate.

Now because I want this post to be on-topic, I must say that I find objections to this technology quite contraditory. Most objectors insist they believe in free choice and free choice. Yet somehow it's an offense to a director if someone decides not to watch some parts of a film. Dare I suggest that objectors aren't really interested in choice, they just want to tell others to act as they do? Free choice people. That's what it's all about. The freedom to choose. This isn't censorship because there is no outside agency imposing it. I thought the messianic message of slashdot was that technology should enable free choice...

...but I'm not. God loves me, protects me, and has a plan for me (both in this life and the one beyond.) He loves you too, if only you would accept His love.

Click here for starters.

I've listened to a bunch of broken men that are addicted to porn and can't escape it. It's a sad state because it causes them to lie and do things they don't want to, just like any other drug. Drugs are outlawed, so should porn. It causes pain and suffering and can so destroy a man's self-esteem that it can make him suicidal.

I'm sure this argument is going to be argued as the need to defend "Men's choice". I have never heard a woman say, 'I sure wish my husband would look at porn more.' The only time I've heard a woman talk about being OK with porn they use words like, 'I don't mind it' or 'I would rather he not, but it's just what men choose' which implies she has a problem with it, but is willing to look past it because she wants to love the person. Pornography turns the woman into an object not only on the (choose your media), but it creeps into the man's overall view of a woman. From just about any book about marriage that you read, women want to be people, not objects.

It's a sad day when we have not been strong enough as a people to resist such a detestable media which causes leaders to have to take radical steps to protect the populace.

Women,
I urge you to stand against pornography. Know that if your husband or boyfriend has a habit of looking at pornography, it is much like a drug that infects the mind of your loved one. Most likely he doesn't understand how it impacts you and your feelings. He's been taught in recent years that it's perfectly OK to look at it. I urge you to share the full extent of your feelings with your significant other about how bad it makes you feel and hope that this somehow causes them to respond by seeking freedom from this addiction. Also know that if you do stand against it and he doesn't respond it's because he's caught in a nasty habit. Have pitty on him and love him. If you have been objectified and aren't a person in your husband's eyes, it might be because he looks at porn.

First, you have to obtain a copy of THE
LIVING WORD OF GOD and read it.

Second, you need to succeed spreading the gospel, perhaps through a
"first post" on slashdot.org, a
popular "news for
atheists" website

Third, you need to share the word of god with every one you meet!
(in real life, in chatrooms, on messageboards).

Talk to one of the ops or any of the other members in this
forum to ACCEPT CHRIST today!

=========text for satan's lamenes filter ===============
John 3
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How ca
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized. For John was not yet cast into prison. Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee b

First, you have to obtain a copy of THE
LIVING WORD OF GOD and read it.

Second, you need to succeed spreading the gospel, perhaps through a
"first post" on slashdot.org, a
popular "news for
atheists" website

Third, you need to share the word of god with every one you meet!
(in real life, in chatrooms, on messageboards).

Talk to one of the ops or any of the other members in this
forum to ACCEPT CHRIST today!

=========text for satan's lamenes filter ===============
John 3
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How ca
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized. For John was not yet cast into prison. Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee b

First, you have to obtain a copy of THE
LIVING WORD OF GOD and read it.

Second, you need to succeed spreading the gospel, perhaps through a
"first post" on slashdot.org, a
popular "news for
atheists" website

Third, you need to share the word of god with every one you meet!
(in real life, in chatrooms, on messageboards).

Talk to one of the ops or any of the other members in this
forum to ACCEPT CHRIST today!

=========text for satan's lamenes filter ===============
John 3
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly Things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, beca

First, you have to obtain a copy of THE
LIVING WORD OF GOD and read it.

Second, you need to succeed spreading the gospel, perhaps through a
"first post" on slashdot.org, a
popular "news for
atheists" website

Third, you need to share the word of god with every one you meet!
(in real life, in chatrooms, on messageboards).

Talk to one of the ops or any of the other members in this
forum to ACCEPT CHRIST today!

=========text for satan's lamenes filter ===============
John 3
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly Things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, beca

First, you have to obtain a copy of THE
LIVING WORD OF GOD and read it.

Second, you need to succeed spreading the gospel, perhaps through a
"first post" on slashdot.org, a
popular "news for
atheists" website

Third, you need to share the word of god with every one you meet!
(in real life, in chatrooms, on messageboards).

Talk to one of the ops or any of the other members in this
forum to ACCEPT CHRIST today!

=========text for satan's lamenes filter ===============
John 3
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly Things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, beca

First, you have to obtain a copy of THE
LIVING WORD OF GOD and read it.

Second, you need to succeed spreading the gospel, perhaps through a
"first post" on slashdot.org, a
popular "news for
atheists" website

Third, you need to share the word of god with every one you meet!
(in real life, in chatrooms, on messageboards).

Talk to one of the ops or any of the other members in this
forum to ACCEPT CHRIST today!

=========text for satan's lamenes filter ===============
John 3
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly Things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, beca

First, you have to obtain a copy of THE
LIVING WORD OF GOD and read it.

Second, you need to succeed spreading the gospel, perhaps through a
"first post" on slashdot.org, a
popular "news for
atheists" website

Third, you need to share the word of god with every one you meet!
(in real life, in chatrooms, on messageboards).

Talk to one of the ops or any of the other members in this
forum to ACCEPT CHRIST today!

=========text for satan's lamenes filter ===============
John 3
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly Things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of Go

First, you have to obtain a copy of THE
LIVING WORD OF GOD and read it.

Second, you need to succeed spreading the gospel, perhaps through a
"first post" on slashdot.org, a
popular "news for
atheists" website

Third, you need to share the word of god with every one you meet!
(in real life, in chatrooms, on messageboards).

Talk to one of the ops or any of the other members in this
forum to ACCEPT CHRIST today!

=========text for satan's lamenes filter ===============
John 3
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly Things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of Go

The copyright page of my church's standard NIV pew bibles have a notice that gives explicit permission to quote, reprint, copy, etc. a reasonable amount of the contents at the same time (no more than 50 pages at once or something). I believe it's from the International Bible Society.

Good point, but wrong reference. It's actually from Ecclesiastes (written by Solomon):
What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.
Ecclesiastes 1:9

there is no account of Jesus having anything to do with sheep.

Here's a much older analogy.

Sue Thomas would be proud. (And I'm sure Levi would be as well.)

note that the bible is full of gnurdly specifications if not actual tech docs, the earliest one perhaps, concerning the building of a boat. (scroll down to 6:14.)

Jesus himself spoke about this issue.

Just think if they decided to do away with Social Security, or made this a standard for newer borns a-la vaccinations...

That would be badass. You could link all your bank transactions into it for a truly cashless society. Could I get one in my hand or forehead for convenience?

Check out John 7:17. Seems to me to be suggesting that you do an experiment.

John 7:17: If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

WTF?

How on earth does that relate to the statement:

train yourself to truly believe only that for which you have experimental evidence (and you're always willing to drop those beliefs in the face of new, contradictory evidence)

Out of all people, I would never expect to hear that from a Southern Baptist. I'm sure you're a fine churchgoer, and you even give lip-service to the pastor and elders when necessary. If you don't think that Christianity is based on fact, then you're in the wrong religion. You need to pick up something like Buddhism, based on the fantasy of one man. Maybe you should read what the apostle Paul had to say on this topic.

But we could trade Bible quotes all night long. I'm just postulating that being a 'good Christian' and being a spammer are mutually exclusive, and that it might not hurt to enlighten this lady as such.

" 'He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone."

Acts 13:10. "You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord?"

Matthew 19:19. "Jesus replied, 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"

John 10:1. "[T]he man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber." (It's a slight stretch, but it's a little applicable.)

Mark 4:18-19. "Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful."

Matthew 19:23-24. "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Revelations 3:16-17. "So, because you are lukewarm -- neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth. You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked."

1 Timothy 6:17. "Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment."

Might want to tell her to read her Bible a little more carefully.

If she tells you, "The Devil can quote Scripture to his purpose," then point out that that's Shakespeare (Merchant of Venice, Act I, Scene iii), not Holy Writ.

(However, if Satan's on the Internet, Bible.Gospelcom.Net would sure let him do it.)

Biometrics will not take away that choice. They will force it upon you.

Very soon, you will be required to have either your fingerprints (right hand) or retinal scan (forehead) "on file" or in the form of a smartcard in order to make financial transactions of any sort. Common sense leads one to this conclusion: my state requires a fingerprint for a driver's license, and my local supermarket has a "discount club" promotion that requires one's fingerprints. Because electronic transactions are more economical, cash will gradually become inconvenient and impractical. Even today, how often does the average person use a check or credit card instead of cash? It will be a simple and seamless transition.

Right now, if you refuse to submit biometrics, you will be unable to get a passport or maybe a driver's license in some states. The torture will come to those that rightly resist the future laws requiring it and cannot buy food, clothing, or a place to live as a result. That is why it is written: whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.

Even if you doubt this scenario, remember it. It will come to pass.

Biometrics will not take away that choice. They will force it upon you.

Very soon, you will be required to have either your fingerprints (right hand) or retinal scan (forehead) "on file" or in the form of a smartcard in order to make financial transactions of any sort. Common sense leads one to this conclusion: my state requires a fingerprint for a driver's license, and my local supermarket has a "discount club" promotion that requires one's fingerprints. Because electronic transactions are more economical, cash will gradually become inconvenient and impractical. Even today, how often does the average person use a check or credit card instead of cash? It will be a simple and seamless transition.

Right now, if you refuse to submit biometrics, you will be unable to get a passport or maybe a driver's license in some states. The torture will come to those that rightly resist the future laws requiring it and cannot buy food, clothing, or a place to live as a result. That is why it is written: whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.

Even if you doubt this scenario, remember it. It will come to pass.

51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

However, I do agree with you that Eschatology is a questionable area of theology. Revelation gives us a basic idea of what's going to happen, and interpreting it at a detailed level is just an excercise in futility. Even a rudimentary study of prophecy in Old Testament history will quickly demonstrate that prophecies don't always mean what they appear to mean...even to those who give them.

And actually, Christ said the most important thing was "Love your neighbor as yourself". (And, as an aside, I'm not replying to your pope issue as I'm not catholic and discussion of their issues is a well I don't feel like jumping in right now.)

Greed of things unhad is the root of all evil

Greed of things unhad is the root of all evil

Greed of things unhad is the root of all evil

Pledging allegiance to Christian values and the President of the USA?

Christians are not to pledge complete allegiance to "Christian values" or any President, their allegiance should be to Christ. And Christian values should then result as a "side effect" of that allegiance. The resulting values could produce some loyalty to country, submission to Governments and authorities. There's a difference there.

AFAIK waging crusades just ain't very Christian in Jesus' book. Even if it baas like a sheep, if it's not walking like a sheep it's not a good example of a sheep. I'm not saying its a wolf, but I'd suggest keeping a close eye on any suspect sheep and his friends. I mean: President "Crusader" Bush? President "Operation Infinite Justice"? President "Iraq a big danger to the World with tons of WMD, and psst don't forget Osama, 9/11, WTC"? Shouldn't he be saying stuff like "I could have been a bit wrong about the Iraqi WMD" by now?

There are lots of things happening under the banner of Christianity which are quite dubious.

It is very disappointing that a bunch of Christian leaders can make a gay divorcee a Bishop - One who says: "I do have this sense I'm supposed to go forward, and I do feel that's coming from God and not my own ego. But I don't know." He's not sure whether it is his ego or God, and he's willing to _knowingly_ split the Church on that. And the other Bishops still approve. Doh. Call me names (antigay etc) if you want but honestly and logically, what can we conclude from that? A christian leader and his independent christian advisors better be 100% sure if he ever wishes to take action that might split a church.

1 Timothy 3:2 (NIV) Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
1 Timothy 3:2 (KJV) A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3:4 (NIV) He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect.
3:7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.

1 Timothy 3

Being a Christian and seeing the scripture (mainly Rev 13:16-18) of my relgion banded about so much I thought I would link to a bunch of different translations which can be found Here. But some have mentioned that they would prefer to see the orginal text, well this one is the closest I can find (the web site has a bunch of other versions clicky here).

My reason is simple, for only by looking at how man sees this text can we hope to discern the meaning behind this very poetic prophecy.

Oh yeah, I think its a dumb idea by the way talk about one great way to track the movements and purchases of a people. Welcome to 1984.

You wouldn't find this particular phrase quoted much, though.

But misunderstood even more, just like a lot of the Bible. It is certainly very easy to take severely out of context. Jesus is referring to unity in spiritual matters, in the grander scheme of Good versus Evil, God versus Beelzebub. He is saying he cannot possibly be with Beelzebub if he is capable of exorcising his devils - such thing would mean disarray among Beelzebub's ranks. Likewise, he points out, you are either with God or you are with Beelzebub, and since Jesus is with the good guys, people should follow him.

In spiritual matters, Christianity seems rather black and white: There is Good and there is Evil. You're either, but you can't be both. This is what Jesus refers to with his "he that is not with me is against me".

Likewise, and this is important part - he points out it won't do much good or bad to criticise him ("whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him") - he's just here doing miracle stuff and preaching, too bad if you don't believe him. But to go against the Holy Spirit, against the things Jesus talks of, means you're certainly not a good person. ("but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.") There is a certain level of difference between saying "Jesus was not worth listening" and "Everything that is good and holy must go". Former is ignorance and fear, latter is a good example of evil thoughts.

What is clear however is that they seem to be bringing us a sort of fusion McCarthyism, part Lenin (originator of the line 'whoever is not for us is against us')..

The phrase was coined by Jesus Christ.

Yes, I was shocked too when I first encountered it in New Testament. "He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad." Matthew 12:30.

You wouldn't find this particular phrase quoted much, though.

--Just a quick note regarding your sig - 'If you don't pray in my school, I won't think in your church'... Try reading this link. The Bereans were commended for being of more noble character *because* they examined the Scriptures (OT) every day to see if what Paul said was true. It's perfectly OK to question religious leaders if you honestly want answers to your questions, but you should try to be respectful about it.

--(Actually in my pastor's case he *wasn't* respectful about it, and got saved anyway -- he went from being a complete in-your-face "intellectual atheist" to an EV Free pastor, and has been for over 30 years!)

I could just point you to the bible and say "go read" but, i think that would do little good. Rather i will give you a few specific references, and point you to a book that does a good job of covering the topic of Lust (and suprisingly isn't aimed at only guys).

Some bible references : James 1:14, Matthew 15:19, 1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 and Ephesians 4:19.

The book : not even a hint (guarding your heart against lust) by Joshua Harris

Or if you are interested in a fictional story that illustrates this, read The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis. It is an allegorical story about a ghost of a man afflicted by lust. Lust is incarnated in the form of a red lizard that sits on his sholder and whispers seductively in his ear. When the man despairs about the lizard, an angel offers to kill it for him. But the fellow is torn between loving his lust and wanting it to die. He fears that the death of the lust will kill him. But, that is only the start... read the book to find out the rest!

If you are really interested, and check my references out, they should answer your questions

I could just point you to the bible and say "go read" but, i think that would do little good. Rather i will give you a few specific references, and point you to a book that does a good job of covering the topic of Lust (and suprisingly isn't aimed at only guys).

Some bible references : James 1:14, Matthew 15:19, 1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 and Ephesians 4:19.

The book : not even a hint (guarding your heart against lust) by Joshua Harris

Or if you are interested in a fictional story that illustrates this, read The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis. It is an allegorical story about a ghost of a man afflicted by lust. Lust is incarnated in the form of a red lizard that sits on his sholder and whispers seductively in his ear. When the man despairs about the lizard, an angel offers to kill it for him. But the fellow is torn between loving his lust and wanting it to die. He fears that the death of the lust will kill him. But, that is only the start... read the book to find out the rest!

If you are really interested, and check my references out, they should answer your questions

I could just point you to the bible and say "go read" but, i think that would do little good. Rather i will give you a few specific references, and point you to a book that does a good job of covering the topic of Lust (and suprisingly isn't aimed at only guys).

Some bible references : James 1:14, Matthew 15:19, 1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 and Ephesians 4:19.

The book : not even a hint (guarding your heart against lust) by Joshua Harris

Or if you are interested in a fictional story that illustrates this, read The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis. It is an allegorical story about a ghost of a man afflicted by lust. Lust is incarnated in the form of a red lizard that sits on his sholder and whispers seductively in his ear. When the man despairs about the lizard, an angel offers to kill it for him. But the fellow is torn between loving his lust and wanting it to die. He fears that the death of the lust will kill him. But, that is only the start... read the book to find out the rest!

If you are really interested, and check my references out, they should answer your questions

I could just point you to the bible and say "go read" but, i think that would do little good. Rather i will give you a few specific references, and point you to a book that does a good job of covering the topic of Lust (and suprisingly isn't aimed at only guys).

Some bible references : James 1:14, Matthew 15:19, 1 Thessalonians 4:7-8 and Ephesians 4:19.

The book : not even a hint (guarding your heart against lust) by Joshua Harris

Or if you are interested in a fictional story that illustrates this, read The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis. It is an allegorical story about a ghost of a man afflicted by lust. Lust is incarnated in the form of a red lizard that sits on his sholder and whispers seductively in his ear. When the man despairs about the lizard, an angel offers to kill it for him. But the fellow is torn between loving his lust and wanting it to die. He fears that the death of the lust will kill him. But, that is only the start... read the book to find out the rest!

If you are really interested, and check my references out, they should answer your questions

> Most religions are almost exactly the same.

W-R-O-N-G!!! If you think that's TRUE, you need to read up more on different religions! Christianity has its roots in Judaism - aside from that, Christianity is different from every other religion in the world. And other religions differ widely - Hinduism is VERY different from, say, Buddhism. Clue yourself in, don't just take my word for it.

Here's a random link from Google to start you off:
clicky