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Rules for Teenage Internet Access?
Kent Brewster writes "Despite dire warnings, we've gone ahead and put computers with Internet access into our adolescent (11, 12, and 15-year-old) childrens' rooms. We've got a nebulous set of rules, which include several like these: Keep the door open when you're on the computer. Don't quickly exit from everything when we walk past. Don't ever lie to us about what you're doing. Unfortunately we've had instances where all of these rules - especially that last one - have been broken, so now we are looking at getting more specific. We'd be very interested in hearing from both sides of the fence: parents with Net-connected progeny, and those who are chafing under their rule. Parents, once you're past making the huge mistake of actually letting the kids have computers in their rooms, what's a reasonable set of guidlines? Non-parents, what are the rules that chap your hide the worst? Do they actually make a difference in your behavior, or do you just sneak past them anyway? Finally, and this is sort of a meta-question from an exasperated dad, does everybody lie about what they're doing on the Internet?"
By age 15, I'd be concerned if they weren't yet looking at porn.
As far as the "don't quickly exit from everything" rule, I think that's a bit unfair... there are plenty of legitimate reasons they might want to (emails, IMs, etc.), and even the naughtiest of children should feel they have SOME privacy. Besides, knowing that you trust them is far more important for their growth than seeing a few naked women (masturbation discovery nonwithstanding).
your not teaching them anything by snooping. Give them some privacy and they will act accordingly.
Observing my siblings and their friends grow up I have noticed something - stricter parenting doesn't make children misbehave less, it just makes them better at lying. You have two options -
Which one all depends on how street-wise you think your kids are. If you think that they are going get influenced by what they see or talk to the wrong people (like paedophiles or Irish people), the dangers are too great so you have to restrict them. If you are just simply uncomfortable with them seeing inappropriate images, bear in mind they'll see them elsewhere if not at home, so what's the point in stopping them?
foo mane padme hum
You mention that the rules have all been broken? What happened when they broke them? Did you take the computer out of the room for a time? If not, perhaps you should in the future.
Prepare an adequate supply of kleenex or equivalent.
BAN MSN MESSENGER!
We played dungeons and dragons for 3 hours.....then i was slain by an elf
browsing alt.binaries.adolescents for research purposes only. really... i was!
I don't know about the rest of the stuff, but as a teenage boy, let me tell you, Netnanny or any of that privacy software DOESTN't work, so don't try that. Also, don't assume the worst in kids, unless they are male, and are pubescent, in which case, the answer is YES, he WAS looking at porn.
Canadian Cynic, canadian politics is less boring than you
I'm pretty sure my dad's just given up, he's pretty knowledgable about computers (learnt a lot from watching him) but he knows I will find a way around.
We tend to become like the worst in those we oppose. --Bene Gesserit Coda--
does everybody lie about what they're doing on the Internet?
Yes.
I used to get high on life, but I developed a tolerance. Now I need something stronger.
As yourself this. Would you feel uncomfortable letting your children walk around anywhere they wanted to go unattended any time of the day or night? Turning down that dark alley is just one click away on the internet. Personally I have Norton at least *try* and keep some of the crap out.
TT
But I don't necessarily tell the truth either.
I know the point of ask Slashdot is to make fun of the person asking the question but come on. Simple...log where they are going or set up some advanced Snort rules on a firewall box to alert you whenever keywords come through. But seriously I've been looking at internet pr0n since I was 11, way back in the day(About 1993), it doesn't hurt much just make sure they aren't planning on meeting someone they met in a chat room named SugarDaddy35 and it'll be fine.
My parents, when asked to sign a letter stating that I could get an Internet account from the ISP I was working for, only replied, "Of course there's porn on the Internet, isnt't that what it's for?".
If you, as a parent, have to tell your kids not to:
* Close everything up when you walk by
* Keep the door open
* Don't lie to us.
Then you've got some serious human responsibility issues.
Throw on a keylogger. After a month, bring the kid into your office and go over what he's done.
"Also, don't assume the worst in kids, unless they are male, and are pubescent, in which case, the answer is YES, he WAS looking at porn." That's so true. And man, don't worry about it. I'm 15 and I have two comps in my room, my mom just gets kinda upset because she never sees me ;) It's really not that big of a deal, I personally think you are overreacting on this subject.
hi
Don't ever lie to us about what you're doing.
Whenever my parents told me crap like this, it inspired me to lie about pretty much everything. Including activities which would probably not get me in trouble. But, when you create an environment of distrust, you're more likely to breed distrustful actions....
"Quoting famous computer scientists out of context is the root of all evil (or at least most of it) in programming." - K
Non-parents, what are the rules that chap your hide the worst? I hated it when my parrents would try to give me guide lines on when to use the computer. "Don't be up at 11 using the computer". That kind of thing doesn't help much. If you ever get in that situation for your kids, tell them that it's late and give them the option of turning off the computer for the night. If they say no, then remind them they still need to get up at 6 the next morning for school, and stick by it. Learning by cause and effect rather than a parrent laying down the law is usually more effective (it just created resent for me).
A. Constanly be there when they are using the machine. or
B. get an isp which will report all the sites that your children go to. And then go through the list carefully, making sure there are no sites in there you dont want them seeing.
All other ways, such as blocks will not work b/c they will either let in too much bad, or not let in enough good, or both.
Nobody ever said parenting was easy.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=
They'll end up finding a way to do what they want anyway, and you can't stop them.
[Parent of three, aged 16 through 21]
As I'm 16 years old, here's probably the rules I'll have for my kids (yes I know, I'm paranoid.. but look what I've done):
Do not let them have access to the internet. With that in mind, if you do let them have access to the internet, only allow port 80. And only let them have access to Yahoo! Kids. Do not under ANY circumstances give them access to IRC. IRC is by far the root of all evil.
If you are going to give them access to the internet, make sure to stick their computer behind 4 bridges, and a NAT. Filter everything that you could possibly do. In all cases, do NOT let them have access to the internet if at all possible.
Snoop on your kids, msgsnarf is your friend. Firewall logs and snort also help you filter out porn traffic.
In essence, do NOT trust your kids. They will break your trust, it has been proven time and time again. I do not remember the last time I listened to my Dad, uh yeah.. haha.
In his case, I just make sure his computer doesn't get infected with more then 10 viruses. Although he is actually a computer teacher, but that doesn't mean he knows anything about computers..
Free means no restrictions, ironic the FSF's GPL forces restrictions, isn't it? What's your definition of free?
Don't keep the door closed when you're on the computer? Geez, what horrible rule, especialy for the 15 year old.
:).
If you're that freaked out, why not put all the computers in a "family computer lab"? Is it that painful for you to actually spend time in the same room as your kids?
I mean seriously, putting the TV, computer, etc in the kids room means the kid will spend all their time in their room alone, away from the rest of the family. Put all the entertainment devices in the same place, and you'll find yourselves actually spending time together. That's certainly what I plan on doing when I have kids (which should hopefully be quite a while from now
w.r.t your paranoia. There's a lot of fucked up stuff on the internet, and your kids will eventually see it anyway. I wouldn't want small children to see that stuff but the stileproject isn't going to turn a 15 year old into a psychopath.
But anyway, my solution still solves your problem. So do it.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
The internet just saves them time rummaging around in your sock drawer looking for that Playboy you had hidden. It's safe now.
-- If it ain't broke - overclock it more.
if you have put your children on the network, you need to do the following.
.movi's at small resolutions.
1. Make sure your porn directory is not being shared.
2. Take the webcam out of the children's rooms. You wouldn't want to see your daughter spread eagle showing her tight shaved clit to the work.
3. Make sure there is always kleenex available in your sons' rooms.
4. if you plan on recording father/daughter sex, make sure you do it in divx and at least 640x480. I am so fucking sick of shitty encoding mpg's or
one thing windows lets us do is install firewalls, and block certain internet sites. But... one thing I realized was if you talk to them and act mature about it, tell them that the illicit content they are looking at it designed for more mature people, and inform them that you are going to block those sites. If you do that, then their ball is in their corner. They have 2 options: 1, realize you are right and keep off the pr0n, or 2, they override yer countermeasures and you catch them.
Even the most Cyber Baby'esque child in your house can't totally remove the logs of internet traffic.
Basically, if you cant trust yer kids to keep off the pr0n, don't let them have internet in their room... or put the computer in the living room and only let them use it when yer home. If yer kid is looking at pr0n in the living room and masturbating in the relative public of that place, illicit internet use is the least of your worries.
whatever... trust, or force... its all good.
while(1) { fork(); };
TURN OFF THE COMPUTER AND GO OUTSIDE JUNIOR!
:-(
BEFORE YOU END UP LIKE US!
Poor Slashdotters. You have a chance to get out; take it. This life sucks. Every day I want to swallow cyanide.
Yes, I think that they deserve a reasonable amount of privacy, but you wouldn't let them hit the town without at least knowing where they're going, would you?
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
I'm willing to say the biggest thing wasn't the fact that my parents were big on what I was doing on the computer, it was the lack of respect for my own privacy. Believe it or not, your kids opinion of you (and how much he/she will visit you ;) ) depends on how much space you allow them.
Now there is a such thing as too much space. However, if you want to protect your kids from p0rn, just make it not such a big deal. If you allow your child to date, chat, and be sure to give'em the "sex talk", it isn't so interesting anymore. (In my experience, the kids with the parents who showered them with information and condoms were the ones who are still virgins.)
Most parents only care about p0rn and bombmaking, which is something you don't find unless you are curious. I would say limit your kids time online, but be fair about it. And figure out just what they do with their bandwidth. If the kid has days of music and new games all of the time -- you know what he's doing. But if you notice the harddrive is full, maybe you ought to search for video files periodically.
If you find something, *chill out*. Bringing it up isn't going to help unless you're willing to bar them from the internet forever. In the end, every lonely 15 yo kid is gonna see it, you're just dodgning the inevitable. The easier it is, the less interesting. Be curious, but don't be a nazi.
Why can't all fpga/microcontroller manufacturers just release free optimizing compilers???
that tracks what they do. Either they'll then become good enough with computers to prove you wrong (at which point you don't have a chance anyway), or they won't do anything. If all else fails, really do it.
I've had a computer in my room since I was eight. Fifteen years later, I'm an out of work web developer who can type really fast and find you a copy of the Paris Hilton video in less than two minutes. Well adjusted? Perhaps not, but my tendonitis/carpal tunnel keeps me company at night and that's all that matters.
I'm tired of bombing the universe
It must be true, I saw it on the internet!
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
Mistake #1: Letting them have computers in their rooms.
Mistake #2: Not taking them out.
If you love your children you won't let them browse the internet unsupervised.
TT
It isn't as simple as snoop or trust your children. There is also protection, involvement, teaching them, guiding them, and supporting them. Placing them on the Internet in a private setting without any surf controls where they have to make all the decisions is much like sending them to the cinema alone. There are a lot of predators out there. They will feel alone, unprotected, and will make mistakes and bad decisions. I suggest the following: get software that blocks where they can go (parental control). Better, no Inet surfing except in the living room. Work with them and make them feel protected.
Mike www.sharecube.com
As long as you've raised your kids right the internet is a great thing, it connects you to the world, it broadens you views and it helps you learn alot. Porn, extremist sites, bad influences are things you want to hide your kids from, sure, but as long as their responsible it won't have any effect on them. And by the way, if your male child doesn't get to look at porn, he'll suffer in social interactions, while this seems weird, its true.
There is no replacement for displacement.
On a personal note, i'd never try to enforce a 'no porn' rule on teenage boys. It's damn stupid. Even my mom was cool with the porn mags in my night table when I was a kid. We had a don't ask don't tell rule. She didn't clean that drawer - it was my one sanctum of privacy.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
I've shown my 15 year old a little ablout how I can track & log all of his actions on the internet. Then I let him pretty much do as he wants. The idea is to let him decide what's appropriate, knowing that his parents will also be able to see his choices. I think this gives him a fair ammount of privacy, since we're not looking over his shoulder, but still gives us the ability to monitor what's going on.
Put the computer in the room, no rules, be there to support them and answer their questions honestly.
You allready pretty much summed it up.
You don't trust your children.
If you want to If instill Big Brother.
You could always install a product like spector pro on the pc's and review their actions on a daily basis.
Let them know that it's on there, and that they have no privacy and they'll be sure to behave.
Then again, you could just trust them. And let them actually confide in you without fear of being punished for every little thing.
An example:
(Would you rather have your kid
(1)call you "I'm too drunk to drive home" from a party,
or
(2)Try to drive home drunk afraid that if they didn't Mom and Dad would know they were drinking.)
.
Remember that you are unique, just like everybody else.
More seriously, from the teenager's perspective there's not a whole heck of a lot that most parents can really do when confronted with a teen that's resourceful enough. I speak from experience - I'm a teen, and quite honestly I *have* hidden my actions on the 'net from my parents on occasion - because, for example, it might be a little hard to explain away some of the images on the webcomic Road Waffles (warning: may not be work safe), which regularly has topless ladies in it, though it has plenty of redeeming value beyond that (just like an R-rated movie, it can have that sort of thing without it becoming the focus of the story, or indeed terribly important to the story).
My advice to parents is this - if you want to control what your teens access on the net, you'd better be ready to get really tech-literate. As in spending a few hours getting to know the computer properly literate. But therein lies the problem - most parents simply don't have the time to get as literate on the computer as their teens do, because they have *jobs* to do in the afternoon when the teens are home alone after school with the computer, learning all of its secrets. That means that you've got to spend some of your precious free time on the weekends - and I know that my dad would rather spend his free time playing Bicycle Bridge.
--- Bwah?
Something I'm thinking of doing when I've got little ones running around is putting their pc's behind a special gateway. This way I can block off specific websites, ports, etc for their subnet. Maybe even a way to disable/enable the internet depending on the time of day. (chron jobs maybe?) You could also log everything because all the net traffic would be comming over one line. I know it isn't the perfect answer but it seems better and cheaper if using linux than software solutions. If I had it logging some stuff I'd just do random checks of the logs for stuff that wasn't allowed. This would all be pretty invisible to the children too. Keep the gateway under lock and key and I'd consider my self pretty lucky if my kid was 1337 enough to hack my box.
Oops!
Kids are curious by nature, I know I was. No matter what you do they are going to get their hands on exactly what you don't want them to, so why bother trying? Censuring your childrens' access to the internet is only going to cause them to resent you more and place more obstacles in the path of having a positive relationship with them. I grew up with a computer in my room connected to the internet! (my parents didn't know about that though... they are quite computer illiterate and didn't seem to notice when I crawled under the house with a couple hundred feet of CAT 5. But now I am about to graduate with a BS in Computer Engineering. So, let your kids be, they will turn out all right.
There are computers in the teens' rooms, but the good computers (the ones they want to use for gaming) are in the downstairs office. That's where they (and we) usually sit. They know that the home network is accessible from my company's intranet, and that pr0n access could cause me to lose my job. It's not a problem.
I've had unrestricted internet access since before i can remember. My parents have tried to restrict my access in many ways without actually having to pull the plug (because I still need it for school), but so far I've gotten too smart for them ;-). My parents are non-tech people, so they just enabled the mcafee privacy something that needs a password to get on the internet. No problem, all I need to do is control-alt-delete it and I'm in. They also tried imposing Internet Explorer's restrict-certain-websites thing, but there are numerous ways to get around something like that (I downloaded firebird, and even if I was forced to use Internet Explorer I could just route my connection through a proxy server :P).
Since you've got three machines connected to what I assume is a broadband connection of some kind, I'm also going to assume you have some kind of router/firewall in place already.
Rip it out and replace it with an old pentium running some flavor of linux, BSD, whatever you're comfortable with, and set up Squid on the box as a transparent proxy.
Your kids will not be able to bypass this--at least at the workstation level (I'm not going to speculate on the ability of your children to hack your firewall) and you'll have a log of EVERY URL visited from any machine on your network.
Add something like Webalizer to make the log files more friendly, and you're done.
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
For a 15 year old, I wouldn't really be worried. The only real risk would be pervs chatting them up (especially if they were a girl) But even there I'd probably stop worrying around 13 or 14 or so.
:))
Teach your kids that "don't talk to strangers" applies online as well. (Oh, and be sure to tell them what a stranger is. When I was a child I met a girl who though "Stranger" was simply a synonym "pedophile". I told her it meant anyone she didn't know and she didn't believe me).
Definitely tell them not to ever give out their email address, or download software (probably don't want to give them admin access, unless they are a geek, in which case you should give them a Linux machine
But you have to be age appropriate as well. Something like the stileproject could seriously warp a little kid. Or at least it seems like it could, I'm not a psychologist.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Sir, not to disrespect, but I'm sure your wife doesn't know about EVERYTHING that you do on the internet. And if she does, something is either very wrong, or very right.
See, it all boils down to the fact that the internet is just like any other information medium, be it the library, the video shop w/ an "adult" section in back, or Pigsty, the dirty little kid who hangs out on the playground singing "milk milk lemonade..." That is to say, you'll never be able to keep it in check. It is outside of your sphere of influence.
What can you do? Prepare your kids for what they may run into. Give them feedback and guidance on how to deal with certain situations. Tell them what is appropriate and what is not. After that, its all up to them. As it should be. Humans need practice making decisions for themselves and not having everything honed down, toned down, and spoon fed to them. To do so is a disservice to both the human spirit, and your children's ability to function and think on a level that you may not be comfortable with.
The fact is, you can't protect them. You can only help guide and instruct them.
And if its really such a big deal, take the computer away and be a mean parent. They'll forgive you eventually, and its probably for the best anyway. Its not like its the end of the world, and there's no need for you to cave just cuz Johnny S and Susie Q have computers in their rooms.
Anyway, its all about the trust, man. Trust that your kids know what they're doing and if it gets out of hand, offer help and advice instead of anger and retribution. We get enough of that from The Christain God.
---
Which is worse, kids spending their allowance money on drugs or on internet access downloading porn to masturbate to?
"Don't forget to clean off your keyboard when you're done."
"Mom, that wasn't me. Last time, Dad didn't clean off the monitor either. And I didn't visit Jizzfest.cum. He used my profile!"
First of all, enforce the rules you make for your children. If they break the rules, they need to learn the consequences.
Second, get a cheap computer that has the sole purpose to serve as the router to their computers. Set up a parental control list on the server (using something like NetNanny or Norton Internet Security) that blocks what you want it to block. Filters aren't perfect, but they usually catch most of what you want them to catch. Because the filter is on the server, which they have no way of accessing, they'll never be able to circumvent it.
Enough of this namby pamby "let them do what they want" stuff. The first time you catch them lying, ban them from the PC for 2 months. The second time, make it 6 months. Children have to have respect for their parents.
proxy the shit out of what they are doing and watch everything. If they can't get around it they will be safe enough, if they can get around it they will be safe enough.
To add to the parent poster: Most would agree that there are dangers to the internet, which your rules are there to protect. When those rules are broken, you should have a pre-set plan of consequences. On the part of the child the punishment is a deterent, but you must be strong enough to cary through so that they can also learn from the experience of breaking the rule. I can not stress enough that you should not cave to their 'needs' and be afraid of taking the computer away as punishment.
With your rules it would seem logical that removing the computer (or internet connection) would be a fair punishment.
As the old saying goes: Spare the Rod, Spoil the child. The older I get (I am only 22 now) the more truth I see in that
Not only are you piping potentially anything into their rooms, it is opening up a whole entire world. Everybody has different values that dictate what they will and will not allow into the house. Make sure you understand what could potentially be coming into their rooms. I would even wager a guess that no matter where you set your standards for what is allowable, the Internet will provide stuff to them that is way beyond where you draw your line. Remember that kids don't have to go looking for bad things on the Internet because bad stuff can also potentially find its way to them (e.g. ever get any surprising or unusual emails that are mass-marketed?). I'm under the impression that kids and teens are more impressionable than adults -- they are forming their own values at those ages. For most grown-ups the values have been decided long ago and we're used to what we have decided to go with.
I know this is not a popular view these days, but whatever rules you make about internet use in your house are fair - it's your house.
Keep in mind, though, that all teenage boys wank over naughty pictures - this is normal. And no-one wants to admit that to their parents - that would be embarrassing for the kid.
If you're concerned, have all internet traffic enter your house through a box you control, and install dans guardian on it. I'm too lazy to link to it - GIYF.
You make the mistake of thinking you can educate the fundamental stupidity out of people. You can't.
Let them go where they want on the internet. Maintain a log of URLs they and you visit. Make this list available to all in the family. You won't have problems with them going to anything "wrong" or "bad" if it's under family/peer review. At the same time, you must follow the same policy, do as I say, do as I do. Or you could just allow unmonitored access and let things work out. Natural selection and all...
We have unlimited access at home, each of us kids have our own computer (3 of us, me being the oldest "kid" at 21, the youngest is currently 15), plus my dad has a few PCs and a central server for the home network (6 or 7 PCs in total). None of us have been damaged by what we have seen on the internet.
To protect your kids from stuff on the net we all deem "evil", such as unsolicited email containing fraud scams and porn, teach them how to identify it instead of blocking it from them. If you want your kids to walk on their own feet one day, help them see the world as it is. And about porn, I'm sure most of you (male) parents went looking how to get a copy of Playboy when you were the age. The net just makes the access a little easier.
parasight.de
The one time my dad tried something on me (yanked the Cat 5e out of the keystone), I decided to have some fun and SSH'ed into his box from school, null routing his SMTP server. Not being to send email for 6 hours was a big enough deal that he has never disconnected me again.
fsck -u
Block anything that comes in that contains japan and porn, hentai, or doujinshi. It'll save your kid alot of nightmares from having to see things with titles like "DickGirl Extreme: Scat Edition".
I love it. /. parenting. Finally.
... you can go off the pill"
:) It was a good setup.
.02's? Kids need privacy. Kids need discipline. Kids aren't the parents. Install some snooping software. Just like my mom used to pick up on the phone extension -- though she never knew I knew how to wire up a few parts from Radio Shack and a blinking led always told me of a 2nd extension going off-hook.
[me]: "HONEY -- I'm ready now
The sad thing is I grew up with a C=64. My parents didn't understand what I was doing. Thus they didn't _want_ to know. Nothing illegal, of course...
Today, they _still_ don't understand what I do or how I do it. Fine by me -- and now it pays the bills. Almost ironical.
My
Oh yeah. Tell them about using protection (!) PLEASE. Too many Windows boxes spewing spam from virus'. Or go buy them a Mac if you're tired of the patches, but I digress.
The worst punishment I ever got was getting grounded to my parents room. No computer. No TV. Oh my gosh, only books. Funny -- I still like to read.
You could install some sort of proxy and view every web site name they visit, but that puts you in a position of holding them responsible if a friend mails them a link to something inappropriate.
If they're all boys they're going to look at porn. Deal with it - did you raise them to respect women? Do you respect your wife? If this is the case it is mostly harmless
Do shield them from creeps on the internet. Part of my job used to be training police officers in computer forensics and I found I just don't have the stomach to hear about the stuff they're chasing. Explain what a sexual predator is to them. Even if it makes YOU squirm.
My eldest is going to be seven and he just got a web mail account but I've dated a couple of women with teenagers
I am very easy to get along with, but I don't have time to waste being nice to people who are being stupid. -Theo
Think about it this way, how is it different then letting them hang out with friends? The evils of drugs and liquor are out in real life and the evils of piracy, hacking, etc are on the internet. The best thing you can do is to a) trust them to do what's best, b) gain their respect so that they don't want to let you down, and c) explain to them what you consider really bad and WHY you consider that stuff really bad.
For c, make sure to keep it to the really importent stuff because as the above post said they'll be looking at porn no matter what, but you need to make sure that they understand that faking credit card numbers or stealing passwords to gain access to anything is unacceptable. By explaining why you disapprove of something, you are showing that you respect them because it's more like your trying to convince them that something is bad instead of just saying it's bad.
As a 23 year old who had a computer in his room and internet access through most of high school I can say the main thing that kept me out of trouble was me not wanting to disappoint my dad, but the freedom he gave me allowed me to grow.
Since she's sitting next to me, playing Diablo 2, I asked my 14-year-old daughter about her net access.
"I find little weird web sites, I look at them," she says. "When I close the [browser] window, it's just an automatic reaction to parents in the room, a matter of privacy."
Yes, I've caught my eldest daughter reading disturbing web sites -- CNN, Christian fundamentalists, anime, Slashdot. Lord knows, she's found some very strange online comics. She asks the most damnable questions sometimes -- and that's just fine with me.
I can't teach my daughters to respect my privacy by snooping in her activities. I trust my kids. They know their parents trust them, and that they can come to us with any question; we know what they are doing, where, and with who, not because we dictate, but because our kids want us involved in their life.
All about me
I would probabally NOT let them have computers in their rooms, not at that age. I never did. Keep the computers in a more public area like the living room or the den. Let them know that if they behave well that when they turn closer to 17 or 18 they can get one in their room. Thats if they are still living there.
In terms of time, my linksys router has a neat feature that lets me limit the times that the computers on my network can access the internet.
In terms of web content, it's a fruitless venture to limit it. You can try all you want, but if a kid wants to get porn, they'll get porn... even if it means going old school and checking out victoria's secret's website.
If your kids are idiots however (and you know if they are or not parents), you can use a simple web content program. We-blocker (www.we-blocker.com) is a pretty good one and it's free, which is even better.
Umm, no dad, I don't! And those pictures, they must have been popups or something! Not that I looked or anything.
I find it disturbing and racist that you would make such a statement that separates two groups of people like that.
Irish people are perfectly capable of being paedophiles and I object to your racist and horrific implication that the two cannot coincide, you insensitive clod!
---
Don't ask don't tell
:)
It's a good policy, you don't invade their privacy, they're going to do whatever they want any ways. Thus you don't know and will be happier not.
You're children are vastly less innocent and sweet than you were or that you might even think they are.
by the time I was 15 I was already working on porn sites, warezing, stealing, committing fraud and so on quite well, although back then Internet porn was pretty crummy any ways...
Since then I found God and have changed and would never go back.
So if you want to keep your kids away from the dark places of the Internet, make sure they became zealot Christians.
Already zealot Christians? then stop worrying and just pray
Your kids already have to contend with a father that thinks slashdot would be a good place for parental advice ;o)
Twins by any chance?
I'm 14 and I hate stupid crap like this, I just start lying for fun, closing random windows, ARP poising and taking down my network when I'm pissed, etc.
I'd recommend you back of any kids above 13-14 as they're old enough to understand what's right and wrong and francly [sp] unless you live in Nebraska, they already know everything there is to know... If you just start bugging them then they'll just resent you and go to school the next day and talk about what an evil dad they have, anything younger I'd have rules, but don't be too strict, or absurd.
By the time your kids are in or approaching highschool, the groundwork has been laid. Either you have a strong, nurturing relationship, and your kids have learned to think responsibly for themselves; or they're snotty brats who distrust their overbearing and indifferent parents, who will lie to you at every opportunity, and who will bend with the winds of peer pressure. Either way, they have already been faced with every temptation you wish they didn't know about.
You need to give them the tools to make good choices: self-respect, self knowledge, curiosity, empathy, fairness, and the other strengths of responsible adulthood. And if they have a healthy amount of curiosity and are not malformed, OF COURSE they'll be fascinated by porn. Weren't you? Like the other poster said, isn't that what the Internet is for?
Little kids are another story, of course. They are still assembling their tool kits. You need to guide them through the discovery of life's seamier chapters. But fortunately, little kids won't know how to circumvent firewalls, and they don't need computers in their rooms. You have a few years to get them ready. And what they need from you has nothing to do with technology.
So I laugh at the folks who are aghast at their 16 year old kids running Grand Theft Auto Vice City. But I shudder at my friends who bought it for their ten-year-old son. WTF?
-- We all have enough strength to endure the misfortunes of other people. La Rochefoucauld
I got a summer job and bought my own PC. So I'm golden on that front.
My parents tend to learn computer stuff from me. Thus I do not discuss History Lists around them.
I get home from school before my parents get home. This leaves me about two hours to do whatever.
I have a brother, and we tend to keep the fappage details secret from each other. It's not good to look at porn when the other brother is in the room; that's just our moral code. I know he looks at lots of crap and he has mostly given up on hiding it; he still closes windows quickly though. And it's not like we rat on each other; he who has not sinned may cast the first stone, I always say. But still, I categorically deny anything that may show up in my History, intentionally or not.
I must be pretty lucky compared to other teens "chaffing under the rules." My parents have recently grown a little concerned after I posted some of my Photoshops of teachers on my blog that got me suspended for ten days and got me kicked out of the National Honor Society. But otherwise it's cool.
Oh crap! I'm starting to think they might not care!
Nah.
That's why I think that it's a good idea to set things up in a way that let's you monitor what's happening on their computer from somewhere else. I understand that the /. crowd isn't a big fan of corporate "big brother" software, but putting all of the computers on a lan and having some of this installed would allow you to see what they have been doing, and some would also let you see what they are doing while you check. Also, using an OS that let's you place limits on what software they can install and access can help you decide the rules and let the system enforce them.
Maybe instead of concentrating on all the things they shouldn't be doing (because really, they're going to do them anyway, at some point), the focus should be placed on encouraging them to use the computer as a tool to learn about software development, art, music, creativity, writing, and things other than Pr0n and A/S/L chatrooms. Back in the days when all I had was a BBS to log onto by night, my C64 (and eventually Amiga) allowed me to explore all sorts of musical, graphical, and software development endevors. It's almost sad that the Intarweb is this big shiny thing that wastes the time of anyone without the discipline to back themselves away from it and do something self-improving with their computer.
So yes, change the focus to productive computer usage, trust them to behave (reasonably), and talk to them candidly and in a non-judgemental way about what they find that may be offensve on the Web. If you're really scared about what they're going to find on the internet unsupervised, take a walk with them around your nearest Inner City area, so you can see what nastyness really is.
I have 3 children (16,10 and 5), they all have computers in thier rooms that have unfiltered Internet access. The only real hard and fast rules we have is that they are not allowed to talk to people on IM or e-mail that they do not know, never give out your e-mail address to people you don't know, and never agree to buy anything. The last one became necessary when my 10year old joined Columbia records and got 10 free CD's for a penny!!! Now the gotcha's. My kids know that I can see everywhere they go by checking my firewall logs. If I check my logs and and see anything I feel is worth discussing then I will. Nothing will stop a 16 year old from viewing porn like having to face dad for an open and frank discussion that starts out as "so son, notice you've been looking at a lot of sex pages..Do you think all women are like that?? I noticed you were spending most of your time on pages where the women were doing X. Why is that ?? " He would much rather I just yell at him and forbid it, but I refuse. Basically I am using shame as a weapon..Will probably have to pay for it via therapy for them later...Oh well.
The only potential problem that comes from masturbation to pornographic images is getting in to bad habits (you know, trying to come real quick because your parents might find you). Trying to come too quick, masturbating too hard, etc. I'm speaking from a male perspective as I am male.
If you have a son, but them The Multi-Orgasmic Man. Buy one for yourself, too.
If you have a daughter, buy her Sex For One. (Again, buy it for yourself, too).
If your brave, buy them sex toys. A Fleshlight for the boys, and Hitachi Magic Wand for the girls. Get to know queer people...they tend to be kinky and healthy at the same time (at least the ones I know).
As for other things, I'm sure Slashdotters agree that MUDing and IRC and whatnot are Good Things.
Don't bother with such nonsense. Really. I'm 21, and I've had unrestricted, unmonitored Internet access since I was about 12. Sure, I did a few things over the years that I'm sure my parents wouldn't have approved of; I looked at porn, downloaded the Anarchist's Cookbook, whatever. And you know what? It didn't do me any harm. If you've done a good job raising your kids, they're not going to get screwed up by anything they find on the Internet. If you haven't, trying to the control their web habits isn't going to change anything.
Make your kids aware of the dangers of giving out personal information and of real-world meetings with people they contact online. Make sure they take those warnings very seriously. Other than that, just let them be, unless you have reason to suspect something really serious is going on.
Parents, once you're past making the huge mistake of actually letting the kids have computers in their rooms...
There is no way to prevent the access. There is no way to prevent desire. Acknowledge this and adapt. Teach ethics, treat people (including your kids) with respect, and behave honorably. Simple.
The alternatives suck.
Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
I was quite fortunate to have my own computer at age 14 in 1995... sure I looked at porn online, but I also looked at my father's porn collection.
I don't know if you'd say I turned out alright, we'll have to let history be my judge, but not having Internet access wouldn't have stopped me. If they required supervision, I wouldn't have been able to look at porn online, but I also wouldn't have been able to spend enough time online to learn about other stuff, like how everything works.
This isnt so much about the internet, but more about the trust, or lack of, that parents have for children. Its common for parents to take the line of: Look, be open with me and trust me to monitor what you are doing, and I will be fair about it what happens.
This line of thought jsut dosent work. The problem with it is that it assumes that the child cannot gauge for themself what they are looking-at/doing, when almost for all cases they can. Why would they hide a screen when you walk past, if they havent already come to a conclusion that they need to hide it? (Either because the material is something they feel you will find inappropriate, regardless of werther it really is or not, or simply because they dislike the fact you aren't trusting them.)
Once a child (nay, person) has already hade up their mind that: 1. they are being monitored or watched, and 2. they arent being trusted to make up their own mind, then your have already lost the game. Subsequently asking them to be completely open and transparent with what they are doing is not just insulting their intelligence, but asking them to incriminate themselves. And parents still make the mistake that they think the idea works.
Once you violate the trust you have for a person by asking them to possibly incriminate themselves volentarily, you can hardly expect any trust back in return. How you then solve the problem of internet access is up to you, but coming from a technical background I can think of at least one way. Monitoring proxy logs after-the-fact, at least gives the children the idea that you trust them to at least some extent, and that gives at least a little incentive to do the right thing.
Still, coming down on them like a ton-of-bricks at the end of the week when you go through the logs, isnt going to help your cause for the week after.
Anyone who considers arithmetical methods of producing random numbers is, of course, in a state of sin.-John von Neumann
It was discovering gay Internet communities that stopped me from hating myself. In most areas of the U.S., teens that question their sexuality aren't allowed to have anything resembling a constructive dialogue that helps them come to terms with themselves. I lived in an oppressively homophobic, fantically religious small town where being gay was outright unthinkable. The innate homophobia in high school doubled the effect. I HATED it, almost became suicidal. But the Internet helped me bring my confusing "differences" into sharper focus, gave me the chance to feel less alone, and provided me hope for eventually escaping the evangelical confines of my surroundings. Access to gay youth resources on the Internet would be the first thing to go if a filter was in place. Especially if a log file was being recorded. The last thing a gay teen wants to do is tip his parents off about his sexuality before he wants to!
Your house is a HOME, not an office.
There is no excuse for having a television in each room, forget about a computer.
If they need to do homework, hand them a pencil.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
I would suggest that you put any computers in general living areas, not bedrooms. Make sure the screens are facing the center of the room. Sorry, but it is too easy to get into trouble when you are alone with the Internet. Would you rather be installing spying software and feeling like you are betraying them?
Heck, if my parents had any idea what I did back in the old BBS days I would be walking around to this very day without a tuckus. Now with porn and predators all over the place, it is too scary.
Forget all this stuff about trusting your kids. Keep in mind these immortal words, "Trust, but verify." If you regulate the environment, you prevent unpleasant situations from occuring.
It's recommended by many that your teenagers need a door with a lock on it.
Why?
Because their room is private. They do private things in there. Like masturbate and write in their diaries.
If you don't want them to keep their online activities private, I would recommend that their computers don't go in their rooms.
"No problem. I have the capacity to do infinite work so long as you don't mind that my quality approaches zero."-Dilbert
The answer to that last question, of course, is also yes.
From the standpoint of the security field, we have a few ways of dealing with this when a customer asks us to implement an access restriction scheme. Our first recommendation is that you brief your kids on the dangers of internet usage. Sometimes they just go blah, and at other times they go "Holy Crap, I wouldn't have guessed that dude was a pedophile psychotic killer...Maybe I shouldn't meet him tomorrow..." Our next recommendation is that they determine the actual level of infringement of their proposed use policy that is currently occuring. For example, a customers log from their proxy server indicated that their sibing had visited a pornographic website 2 times in the 7 months it had been in operation. After implementing strict access rules, the same child visited such sites 36 times in one month. The lesson: It's usually not much of problem in the first place. And the last recommendation is that they asess the computer skills of their child before having us implement any type of software restriction. There is nothing like having the logs of a premier censorware application consist of 32,000 repititions of the phrase "F#(K U SECURITY DUDE!" to remind you of the wisdom of this. ALL of them can be compromised, and you should pay attention to whether or not your child is capable of this. Generally, though, we don't accept this type of work anymore. Most parents subsitute technology for proper parenting when it comes to the realm of the computer, and we just have to shake our heads. If your kids know right from wrong, then you have done your job and shouldn't have to worry. For example, I KNOW that my kids don't do things just because I will punish them if I don't approve (Although that is still part of the equation.) They keep on the straight path as much as possible because I tell them why I don't approve and give them the opportunity to reach a deeper understanding.
You are an idiot for giving your children their own computers with unfettered net access in the first place.
My suggestion, take them away, allow them to share a family computer in a well trafficed area, and a lot of your problems are solved. What the hell do they need their own computers for anyway? So they can download their warez and pr0n without you knowing? Seriously, give me one good reason?
My children are too young to use computers, but once they are able to use the internet. They are going to have no privalages on their logins. I will setup a caching name server, blocked keywords, and use a proxy server logging all sites. It is stupid to think you'll be able to block everything, but you can log it all.
Finally, and this is sort of a meta-question from an exasperated dad, does everybody lie about what they're doing on the Internet?
:D
The right question is, what do people NOT lie about?
I think step one is to understand you are in serious trouble if you have to come here looking for parenting tips.
Block goatse.cx Because, well, goddamn.
There are many ways you could do this (in the browser, a "transparent cache" using apache or squid, etc.). ICRA.org is your friend.
When setting the policy for the browser and or caching machine, allow them to view almost anything, except content labeled as depicting 'deliberate injury to animals' and 'deliberate injury to people', as well as anything promoting drug, tobacco and alcohol abuse. Also block all chat (web based chat is a waste of time, anyway).
Depending on your 'moral standards' you may be able to allow them to view 'Erections or female genitals in detail' and 'Explicit sexual acts', but if you have a problem with that, at least let them develop some appreciation of human anatomy and sexuality by allowing:
# Male genitals
# Female genitals
# Female breasts
# Bare buttocks
letting them sneak a little softcore will keep them from trying to watch scrambled porn on cable in the middle of the night, and keep them away from the gun shows, too!
Block all web content without a PICS label!
People want to look at members of the opposite sex in the nude and somehow manage to function in everyday life. It's been an issue ever since there've been the sexes.
I've clearly expressed my concerns about pornography to my 14 Y.O. children, and they have a computer in their room. I've not told them that I'm afraid that they might look at it. Instead, I've told them about the effects of pornography - victimization and objectification of the opposite sex, brief examples of the horror that porn "actors" and "actresses" have to go through, and the effects of irresponsible sex. (have a baby, venereal disease, etc)
The only rule that I've ever established is that I don't want to catch them looking at stuff they wouldn't see on a beach - EG: swimsuits are OK, but not much less than that.
I figure that every 15 Y.O. kid has a hustler or something stashed away, though I wouldn't tell them that until they're asking me about this stuff in respect to their kids.
And, I've seen no issues or problems so far - the computer's been in their room for about a year.
Remember when you were 15 - what did you look at? Your kids aren't stupid, why do you not trust your kids to make intelligent decisions? Give them the facts, and make a few restrictions so that a bad decision on their part won't violate the sanctity in your home.
Most of all, *TRUST YOUR CHILDREN*. They are intelligent people, too!
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
Your mistake is in putting all that stuff in your kids' rooms. Put the TV's, the console's, and the PC's in the common room, and make your kids play outside, eat dinner with the family, take violin lessons, and read books. They'll spend all their spare time downloading porn, playing computer games, and refreshing slashdot every thirty seconds in college anyway, so it's your job as a parent to expose them to some things they'll appreciate later in life, while you still can.
Flying is easy, just throw yourself at the ground and miss. -Douglas Adams
Wow. Good luck, first of all. I don't have children, and I definitely don't envy you working through this one.
My suggestions:
1) The more consistent your rules are with non-Internet equivalents, the better. Have you discussed porn with them? (at LEAST the 15-year old...don't know if it's a boy or girl.) Are there guidelines? Is it forbidden? (If so, and it's a boy, prepare for lies.) How about talking to strangers? I would HOPE there's a policy that at least includes no personal information, even to other children (because on the Net, safest thing is to assume the 16-year old girl your child is talking to is actually a 44-year old man. Sad, but better safe than sorry.) It's incredibly easy to separate actions on the Internet from the "real world"...but the more your children realize that one directly impacts the other, the better.
2) I'm not personally a believer in censorship. That being said, I also don't have children. *grin* WRT limiting their use of certain apps, blocking sites, etc....the problem is that there's almost always a workaround. On the other hand, I think you as a parent have every right to monitor what's going on. In addition, it's pretty hard to route around (SSL/SSH encryption would, but would be suspicious in and of itself). My suggestion would be to monitor the network usage; time, type (protocol, ports, etc.), possibly even sites, and packet level capture if you feel like you're having trouble that could be dangerous. It sounds draconian, but I don't think that you are obligated to give an 11-year old unfettered, unmonitored access to the Internet.
Again, good luck. To be honest, I think a lot of people go overboard with trying to shield their children from EVERYTHING...more likely than not, things'll work out fine, even if somebody sees some boobs. But Just In Case Of Something Bad...you need some controls, and the ability to figure out what's really going on.
So, a, what are you wearing?
Bah, when I was a kid I'd put blankets around my door frame so my parents wouldn't see the light from my computer at night. Then at 6 the next morning I'd casually walk past the bus stop and wait till my parents went to work, go back home, call myself in sick and then get back to playing nethack or doom. The thing you gotta worry about is when they come home early...that can get messy. Honestly, I missed over 30 school days one semester of high school doing this, and still managed B's. There is no negative side to being on the computer 24/7 except terrible bleary eye.
You have life completely backwards.
It is politically-correct, afraid-not-to-be-their-kid's-best-friend morons like you
who think a life's worth of experience counts for nothing
and who tolerate people (or ARE people) that have children, but won't be parents
that has created a generation of poorly-behaved slackers.
gewg_
there is only one rule you need to make and that is that you will not allow them to meet anyone from the internet unless you meet them first.
you can't/shouldn't invade their privacy or stop them finding a bit of porn, but at the ages you are talking about they are still relying on you for money/ transportation so play that as your trump card.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
Peter,
This your dad. Listen, it is 10;30pm on a Saturday night. Why don't you go out and get laid; I'll give some money and point you in the right direction. Otherwise, get your hand off your pecker, close that god-awful slashdot page thing you're so obsessed with and curl up with some milk and cookies.
Love,
Papa Kieser
Sound restrictive? Well yeah; that's the point. I don't plan on letting my kids watch TV unmonitored, either, or even use drugs in their bedrooms. All of this up to a certain age, of course. I don't think that's unreasonable. With earned trust comes greater freedom.
Oh, and "Don't ever lie to us about what you're doing"?? Riiight. Nice.
We did, and still do, have America Online, and it took a few years for them to allow me to even sign on without their permission, and even then I had child level access (as opposed to "teen") until I was about 15 or 16. My dad was furious when I downloaded files (just some shareware games), and when my access level finally was upgraded to teen years later he had the maximum restrictions on. That meant that I wasn't allowed to recieve e-mail, instant messages, access FTP, newsgroups, and most websites. In non-adult accounts AOL's proxy server only responds to HTTP requests, and therefore nearly all internet-based applications are rendered useless.
Being the computer enthusiast that I was, the experience was terribly agonizing. I was trapped in a world of "toy" software, not being to use software and services that normal, functional geeks used on a daily basis.
As soon as I started getting into linux it became obvious how badly I was being cheated. Despite my complaining my father never let up, and the most I ever got was a good yelling at.
Of course, I managed to find a way to get into most things; e-mail and instant messaging were first, and while that was an accomplishment they were only two of the billion things I couldn't do. The things I could do I had to keep a secret, and my parents are still oblivious to the fact that I have gained any access beyond that which they have given me.
Now I do have full access to the web, but there is still a time limit, and I am still blocked from using AOL's FTP client (the only access to my webspace on their servers) as well as newsgroups. I now can use most programs and services, but the downside is that I am still forced to use windows.
My advice to parents is not to do this to your children. That is, don't use cencorship software, because this hurts your kids more than it helps them. Parents should protect their kids, but they should do this by having their computer in a public part of the house, monitering their usage carefully, and just talking to them about the issues, something that my parents never did. Yes, your kids are going to come across questionable content anyway, but they can handle it; I did. What they really need are supportive parents and strong moral guidence, something that software can't replace.
might sound quite stupid..
but that's what i basically had, and if there had been any i definetely would have gone over them just for kicks(actually i would have done it for the porno).
though if you want to teach them how internet works, and how to use a computer, make it a bit hard to get to view some pron(they _will_ figure it out).
remember that dilbert where dilbert decided to do a system to prevent adolescents from viewing pron on internet? and how quickly dogbert said that he had no chance of succeeding("you're putting your skills against the will of teenagers wanting to view some porno?"). if they really want something, they will get it.
ok my views might sound something stupid(or adolescent) to read, but i'm just 22 and grew during the boom of internet(and d'loaded pron even before that from bbs's) and i know a bit of how 'things go'. they will figure it out somehow, someday. if you're censoring their connection they'll be pissed and just go looking for another point of access(and in doing so, lose all intrest into 'the net' because you think you can control them and their habits). and you'll be a lot happier that they learnt that they can get better satisfaction as to comes to pure hollow sexual satisfaction online for _free_ than they can get from call services that cost fucking big bucks.
just be there for them, in real life. try to be intrested before _you_ die out on them(for all you know it could happen tomorrow), give them some inspiration for being a fine character. you just try to give them right pointers and hope they'll come up allright.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Your first mistake was to not think this through. The worst thing for kids is constantly changing rules and/or constantly changing punishments.
The message they/we get is: if it wasn't important enough for you to think through, why should it be important enough for me to listen to what you are asking for?
Get your family together, and force them to view an image from goatse.cx. I guarantee they'll never browse for pr0n after that!
I'm a 15 year old, and have had internet access since Prodigy was THE ISP.
Here is my opinion, from the viewpoint of a 15 year old that has been familiar with the internet and computers from an early age.
1. If one of your children quickly exits a program when you walk by, they're not nescessarily doing anything that you don't allow.
I've found that it's a _natural_ reaction for me to minimize whatever I'm doing when a parent or sibling walks by, no matter what it is.
I use Linux, and even have a Virtual Desktop left empty except for a console, for the sole purpose of switching to when someone is looking.
People looking at the screen just annoys me, no matter what it is, so I protect my privacy. Your kids probably do too.
2. If you try to put restrictions on their internet activity, they CAN AND WILL learn how to get around them.
There is no easy way to make a computer both usable, and to force it's users to not use some programs. Sure, you can block every port but port 80, but they'll just find a way to tunnel things over port 80.
If they're really determined to get around the restrictions, they will be able to sooner or later.
Personally, I can get around any one of my school's internet filtering systems, and most home computers have something similar to them. All it takes to get around a filter is time, and experimentation.
Having said all that, I believe the best thing to do is to trust your kids.
It's virtually impossible to stop them from doing things you don't want them to do, so why not just sit down with them, and have a talk about the proper use of the internet?
If they break that trust, take away their internet access for a day or two. And they'll hopefully be less likely to do it again.
He's got a point. What were the consequences for breaking these rules? Where there any at all? (Other than a really stupid way to ask for parenting advice . e.g. asking the childless, pro-porn, pro-software piracy, anti-family, amoral folks here at slashdot. LOL)
What exactly is your goal in doing this? To prevent them from looking at porn? To keep pedophiles from chatting up your kids? Under your rules, your kids could look at porn all they want as long as they're willing to let you know about it, in other words, you hope your children's shame in their parents knowing about their sexual predilictions should keep them in line? Or you just want your kids to be honest about their sexuality with you? Both of those seem a little weird to me.
If I were you, I'd just use some kind URL sniffer on, and check to make sure they wern't looking at anything really weird.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
If you really don't trust your kids on the computer, putting the computer in a common area (the kitchen, or family/living room) means that whoever is usually in the company of others.
If you are going to make rules, follow them yourself.
I don't think It's such a big deal.... I mean... unless you want them to have to be sneaky and go hormone-insane you might as well let them surf...
Parents, once you're past making the huge mistake of actually letting the kids have computers in their rooms, what's a reasonable set of guidelines?
My daughter is 3 and a half, and I'm setting up a computer in her room. I want my children raised with computer skills. She already plays kid's video games, and browses through nick and nickjr.com. Every once in a while she asks for help and I show her what to do. I understand that in ten years it will probably be the other way around because she is learning computing from the start and will be much more proficient than us adults (like kids who grow up learning two languages).
Judging by your self-bashing remarks, you either a) don't understand computing and the internet, or b) don't understand your kid. Lighten up!
When I was a pubescent young teenager, if I wanted to look at porn, I had to find them in garbage cans, or rifle through friends parent's stashes and stuff. Now, kids can easily access this content - but so what? If they are at an age where it interests them, then they will find it any way they can. I would rather the kid finds it in his/her room than in some back alley, or worse yet gets taken advantage of because they don't know about sex and the body. Little kids don't see anything in porn or sex because they don't care about it. More importantly, if you know your kid is looking at porn on his/her computer, than that opens the door to conversations in which you can teach the kid about respect and consequences.
Don't set up strict rules for computer use. Teach the kid how scams work on the internet. Teach the kid about privacy and security - don't demand it! Telling them why and how is more effective than "because I said so".
Sound waves should be free!
1] don't run untrusted binaries without letting snorton/mccrapee/avg have a poke at them.
2] (more importantly) don't meet up with any cyberchatters in 'the real world' without 1) me speaking to them, better yet their parents on the telephone 2) a good friend present 3) only at a very public place.
IF you really must you could always run the house internet from a central gateway PC, there's plenty of info around on setting up either windows or linux to "share" your broadband connection in a variety of configurations.
Thats way you get all the control you want by setting up filtering, logging dodgy looking URLs that appear in the network logs and so forth.
This way you can know if they are surfing inappropriately and if so you can judge each case on severity and decide if it is worth laying down the law.
The more you convince them that the internet has all this dangerous information to look for they more they will. Thats for starters.
Lets look at another problem, the fact that the internet is so easily accessable thesedays that if they want to look at something - whilst you might think that denying them the right to look at it at home might be effective, they most likely have a friend who's parents don't care and they can look a the stuff there. It is fair to say that if they are sufficiently curious nothing will stop them from seeing it.
Thirdly, your rule of not exiting fast? you could well be invading their privacy doing this, they might be talking to someone on msn/irc/yahoo/aim etc and just don't want you being a part of the conversation.
Now lets look at what controversial stuff they could be looking at. There are only really a few "dangerous" things you could plausably be really worried about - drug information and porn (others but lets focus on these). These things are not internet only problems. Really, there was/is plenty of porn/drugs floating around schools anyway. It doesn't matter how hard these schools try to portray the most ardent discipline and conduct in their schools, corruption is everywhere. If you must know I was curious about drugs in highschool and I sure as hell had plenty of access if I wanted it. That wasn't that long ago and the notion that that problem has been beaten or pegged back is laughable. Thats like saying there are less mp3's around then 5 years ago.
There is very little you can do in this situation, I suggest you just tell them that you are logging the urls they access (and potentially do so with your gateway). This way you don't have to be oppressive and its about as far as you need to go in the home. You can't win the battle against drugs/porn exposure only in their bedroom. Unforunately they are going to do what they are going to do. We all know that society is getting worse and worse for this type of thing but even as a group there is hardly anything we can do to stop it.
A kid can get hit by a car crossing the street a lot easier than they can fall prey to internet predators, or anything else inherently 'evil' about the internet. You wouldn't neglect to tell your kids to look both ways, nor should you neglect to inform them about the dangers of the internet. However, I don't know of many 12-year-olds who won't cross the road using "My mommy told me not to" as an excuse.
Whether or not you think restricting usage of the internet is worthwhile, anything beyond simple advice wouldn't work anyway. It's human nature to violate rules which don't legitimately make any sense, and a lot of the reigning internet filters, expert advice, and parenting "dos and don'ts" about the internet are just hogwash.
Your kids probably aren't doing anything more stupid than you would have done, for better or worse, and you can't expect to change that. Teach them to be more intelligent, rather than more rebellious. Or is that too radical a concept?
Yeah, my boss tried that one also. You know, we can hear you coming, right?
I received my first computer around age 11 and am currently a college student, so I think I can give some authentic feedback from the kids point of view. Having a computer during my adolescent period had both major boons and negative consequences. The best thing I can say is (1) find out the main use your children are using a computer for (2) Ask yourself if the amount of time they spend using a computer is hindering development in other areas of their life (i.e. school, social life, etc).
My parents first limited my computer use to two hours per day (haha!), but I quickly became very interested in programming and other educational functions of computers. I started spending more and more time using the computer and this became a huge conflict between me and my parents. Eventually, my parents slacked off on their two hour per day rule and I could pretty much use the computer as long as I wanted to after I finished my homework for school, and I could use the internet without my parents watching over me. My computer use was very productive. I taught myself enough computer science to AP out of it in college, did several programming projects, and level designed and programmed for a few major Quake mods.
That said, what do I think were good and bad consequences from my parents method? Good: I became very interested in computer programming, which expanded to science and engineering due to being able to read broadly on these subjects on the internet. If my parents did not ease my computer usage, I probably would not be an engineer major (which I love) and have no idea where my life would be headed. Bad: My parents didn't limit my computer usage. I used computers so much it hindered my social life in high school and college.
I really wouldn't worry about your kids finding porn or anything like that. That is something they will be able to see if they want to and nothing you can do will stop that. Of course, if you catch them looking at it, I would admonish them (if those are your values) for it, but don't restrict their computer usage so much that it inhibits them from using the internet for positive things.
You don't want your kids growing up resenting you and being horribly sheltered. Believe me, I have friends like that and they still won't talk to their parents a decade later.
If you've been raising your kids properly they should have a decent idea the difference between right and wrong to begin with.
Give them the benefit of the doubt. That doesn't mean don't keep an eye on them, but don't sit there looking over their shoulder either.
There's a lot worse stuff in this world than digital images of titties. Better to have your 15 year old rebelling by looking at them than joining some gang of toughs
pr0n, juarez, haxx0ring....there is no need for me to lie about what i use the internet for.
Scott
Well I was the child who was given internet access at 13 and I think I came out fine. I got my first computer at 10 and my first internet account in 1993 when I had to learn how to do a SLIP script (pre-ppp). My parents gave me complete trust which is something I appreciated very much.
;) I read the dirtiest, most corrupting crap ever on alt.sex.stories (that place is truly sick, i won't go there now as an adult).. I pirated software - even was a member of PoW for a very short time (RIP!) and couriered it to BBS's.
I found pornography very quickly (Usenet) and learned how to use uudecode by the time I was 14.
I met my first gf online at age 15 ('95) and my parents were actually good enough to let me fly out 1200 miles to meet her 4 times. Yes they made sure she was real (and spoke w/ her parents first of course). She even came out and stayed w/ us once.
I went to college, was successful and now i'm in Law School studying to be an IP lawyer.
So depending on your view, either my parents' trust turned me into an evil lawyer, or a highly educated person out to do good in the world. Your choice.....
So you admit that putting them in their rooms is a mistake... well how about fixing it then?
It makes perfect sense and will save you money.
First as a parent, (i'm not one) you should trust your children. The internet is like any public place, you can't be with your child 24/7. Maybe it's because I'm not a parent, but my parents always instilled the expected behavior from me and then let me choose what it is I was going to do. This has made me a better person in life as I've made my own mistakes and have learned that what they usually say is true. So I tend to listen and accept what they have to say not as rules but as life learning experience.
Point two; I dont want to sound demeaning but parents such as yourself who set rules on things they have little to no control over end up having children who lie to your face. They end up at Billy's house using the internet to talk to some pedophile. Something you could of had control over if it wasn't for the gestapo rules as it would of been in the open. So instead of saying listen, talking to X people over the internet isn't cool and having a positive discussion with your child. You simply have no idea what's going on. Your child ends up on the run with some pedophile in Mexico and you are wondering what happened.
With children I think that the best thing is to simply let them know is that just like anywhere else the Internet is a public place. Just like I will teach my child not to talk to strangers, I'll teach them not to talk to strangers on the internet. At least not in a personal non-academic way and when they are old enough to make the decision that they feel they can do what they want, then thats their choice. However rules like "keep the door open" while on the internet will do nothing for you. Your major mistake is believing that your rules will stop a curious child, they won't. Instead of being a rule gestapo, explain to your children the positives and negatives, tell them what they need to hear so that they can expect certain things and already be alert.
Lastly, be parents. I think the problem today is that alot of parents think that setting "rules" is all they need to do when in reality understanding their children and inquiring about their lives is what parenting is all about. Teach your children, rules mean nothing if they don't know how to handle life like situations. The internet isn't the mistake, public schools aren't the mistake, life situations aren't mistakes. Stop blaming society or the internet or whatever because simply, they are here and everything has problems. It's how your child conceptualizes the problems, issues and general life situations they will have to deal with on daily basis that will determine if you are a parent, or simply a care taker. That choice is truly the parents, and the behavior of the child is truly reflective upon them. My mom used to say, "the smartest children aren't just the ones that can win spelling bee's, or get straight A's. They are usually the ones who can tell if you're bullshitting or not and have toyed with you just to get to see you cards." I guarantee you, your kids can't call a bluff, you've never even explained to them what a bluff looks like.
Heh, I think i'll call my mom now and thank her. She really prepared me for life, not just tell me to follow rules.
As much as it pains me to say this, under no circumstances should you ever allow your teenage daughter to possess a webcam or digital camera. Information coming in, from pirated swoftware to donkey shows, is fairly harmless. Your only area of concern should be about what's going out - it doesn't take much for casual pictures and video chatting to quickly go south and cross the line, shy or not.
The same prinicple applies with many of the evils online (pornogrophy, violence, fostering bad relationships, etc..)
Pornography is evil now? Wow, I'm right up there with Saddam Hussen. But where the hell are my 70 virgins!?
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I had no-rules net access in my room at 13 and it turned out ok.
If kids are going to do something bad then im pretty sure its because somethings wrong inside with their life - be it somesort of anger against something, lonelyness, bullying, not feeling accepted etc. Peer-pressure and having to conform throughout school is probably a much bigger deal than anything the internet can throw at you. If they are gonna do drugs, joy riding, shop-lifting, gang warfare, shooting up their school or any of the other things you probably want to avoid then they will do them with or without the internet (If you're scared they are looking at porn - they have been, yes they lied, no they wont stop, the best thing you can do is help them find a girlfriend;).
Oh and the ammount of money they will save on CDs & DVDs will make everyone happy.
In short i would give them net access with no rules, but wait until you think they know everything they are going to find already (which is pretty early) and it wont be a big deal, they will feel more trusted and mature which is usually a good thing unless they have already started the car-jacking in which case you should cry.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
Well, it would seem to me that as intractable as kids are by adolescence, adults are even more so. That being said, it's unlikely you'll change your mind. However, here are a few points to consider. First, whatever you choose to do, be honest about it. If you don't trust them enough to leave them to their own devices, tell them as much rather than try and hide behind some sort of weak semantic spin (there's nothing worse than your parents saying they think you're responsible but then treating you differently). Being honest about this will make them more likely to try and earn your trust rather than foster a blinding rage. My personal thoughts on this are that by that age, your effect of your words on their values is minimal. Put in another way, what you say to them doesn't affect them so much as the example you set. Bearing that in mind, I think you should leave them be on the net, but make a few requests of them that are reasonable. 1.Don't do illegal things. Explain that if they do, it comes down on YOUR head. Anyone can understand why doing that would be wrong. 2.Don't meet people in person you've only met on the net. If they really want to, have them allow you to at least get to know the other person a little. It's dangerous otherwise and again, just plain common sense. 3.Use it recreationally in your spare time. And spare time means spare time. Don't invent things for them to do when they've done their work just because you are afraid of them using the computer. ("Have you done all your homework?" "Yes" "Then why not do something for your other classes?" "I finished all the work for those too." "Then why don't you study for a test or something?" "I'm getting an A in the class" "Then.... go read the textbook over again") --- everybody has had something like this happen to them once and face it, no matter what the intentions are, it's frustrating B.S. at any age. And last but not least, it's hard being a parent because there's no set thing to do. So just do what you think is right. Good luck!
Just let them have their privacy. They'll take it anyway. Don't treat them like kids. The internet isn't the same thing to you as it is to them.
Tell them not to do anything illegal.
I'm in my 20s, but here's my basic set of rules that should be followed.
1. If you use your name on the Net, never get out more than the first initial of your last name. If you cannot sign up for something because it needs your whole last name, ask an adult first, an experienced Netizen.
2. You are NEVER safe from viruses, not even on message boards. If you get into trouble, no matter what you were doing, tell someone, don't hide it. You'll regret it once it gets worse.
3. If you're going to look at sex sites and stuff like that, no matter if of legal age or not, make sure to do it on a junk computer. A computer that can be littered with viruses. And what youth isn't curious?
4. With the exception of Rhode Island, never be more specific than what state you live in. Okay, big states you can say if you live in the north or south, or whatever, but don't say more than that. If you live in Rhode Island, don't even say that. Say you live in an adjoining state.
5. Never give out your phone number. Not even when registering stuff. Make something up. It's so easy to trace someone if they know your phone number, name, or address.
6. If you have to open a suspicious e-mail, search to see if your first name appears in it anywhere, provided your first name isn't in the username of your account. Example: jingles20000@hotmail.com First name: Jared. If an e-mail looks suspicious, and you think someone replied to you, see if your name "Jared" is in the e-mail first. Don't open it and search. Who knows, it may be a virus.
7. Don't use your last name, telephone number, or address in passwords. Not even on the most trusted sites. It's stupid. There are so many potential ways that could end up in the hands of others somehow. Don't do it, it's really stupid.
It's a judgement call. You do what you can as a parent to insulate your child from things they aren't ready for, but as they grow up you'll eventually just have to cross your fingers and hope for the best.
"And now, Frank N. Furter, your time has come. Say 'goodbye' to all of this, and 'hello'... to oblivion!"
As a 15 year old without any rules, I know the thing that keeps me out of porn best is the fact that I know that I could, I know that my parents wouldnt know, but I know they trust me enough not to and breaking that trust is really unthinkable. This probably wouldnt work for all kids, however, so use it at your own risk.
When life gives you crap, Make Crapade.
Sluggy Freelance.
Man! THis is a GREAT post! Don't let the little pricks generation gap you- they are under your roof. And while I think its stupid to say "no boobies!" that doesn't matter- what I say goes, and if you buck against my rules (capricious thought they may be) you'll find yourself in a brand new world of pain that you never imagined existed.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
Or do what I do and just TELL them that you're logging their traffic. Knowing that anything they say online can be used against them by dad does wonders to keep them honest.
And don't give me lip about not trusting my kids...I trust my kids with my life. It's the million other perverts who would lure them to the local Motel 6 that I don't trust. Children, even teenagers, need guidance and need their parents to keep an eye on them and prevent them from getting into potentially dangerous situations. In my case, I do that by occassionally snooping on their communications. Considering that I've already caught my nine year old daughter posing as a 13 year old, AND caught a local high school kid propositioning her, you'll have a heck of a time convincing me that monitoring is a BAD thing.
There is nothing so pathetic as seeing a beautiful young theory roughed up by a tough gang of facts.
As someone who has seen a few FBI files on what kids of all socioeconomic status' get themselves into online:
It's NOT a matter of trust. It's a matter of safety.
My advice: set up a logging firewall, and log everything. But don't go through the logs unless you know something bad is up. Make sure they understand you trust them and the logs will probably just be erased one day, but *can* look things up if you need to.
It's just like anything...trust them, but have the ability to know what's going on.
It constantly amazes how many people never heard the story of "Sleeping Beauty"
and who go with the security-through-obscurity notion
thinking that NOT teaching their kids about spindles--but rather trying to destroy every spindle in existance--
will keep the kids safe. (The same goes for those abstinence-only idiots.)
gewg_
1. First, if you raised them right, you have little to worry about.
2. Second, given (1), if a child is going to be bad, the child will be bad whether you have the Eagle Eye or not. You deal with it when it happens.
3. I use a router that has SPI and I can see everything the kids do on the Internet (and they know it).
PGA
Jesus, what a fucking Nazi. What are you a Mormon or something? You whine about your kids lying while accepting as given your right to lie to them, by denying them information, about what the world is really like.
Your kids are going to be fucked up. Not because of something they saw on some website, but because their parents were hypocritical lying dictators who treated their children like slaves.
Keep that door open! Don't you lie to me about what sites you went to! Prepare for browser inspection! Johnny, keep your hand out of your pants while you're at the keyboard!
Fucking lame.
Put the fear of your-god in yah! People are falible, the higher power is not. Let them know that they will go to your-hell if they are naughty!
Oh yeah, and give 'em a beatin'.
A BEATIN'!!
Blar.
My mother took the route of trusting me with a computer, she even invested several hundred dollers for me to build a box and buy routing equipment. Now I admin our home network, I'v built her a machine, rebuilt my sisters and make sure all the machines are safe and I'm educating her on how to use the internet. Do I goto sites she thinks are bad? Definatly, but rarely. I do tons of reading online as well as gaming and chatting. Parents weren't meant to control the entirety of a kids developement. Most Pr0n won't damage your kids' minds, it'll make them think. Seeing a male or female n00d or having erotic sex is a far more complete education on their sexuality than they could ever have. Seeing neonazism sites or reading books on brainwashing will help them solidify why these things are wrong. Before our world was simple, now it's confined to cities and suburbs. The internet can bring the world to a kids hands, both the good and the bad, so they cabn better understand it.
What you do want to control is their gaming habits. I would've liked to learn woodworking from my father but instead I spent my troubled childhood shooting up on the computer because society hated me. It was a great escape but it's the wrong way to deal with reality.
Candy-Coated Knowledge
You don't want a real answer. You've already made your decision: you think it's bad and has no benefits. You're convinced your children will become sex maniacs and off building pipe bombs in no time. Nothing we say here is really going to make you think rationally about the whole thing.
Consider something a little more fundamental.
If you've raised your children with the morals you hole dear, and taught them to be responsible and honest with you, giving them unfettered Internet access is no problem. Unrestricted Net access is only a problem if you're a failure of a parent. If your children are off searching for porn, it's because you didn't address the morality of it. If your children are lying to you about anything, it's because you didn't raise them to respect you. If your children sneak around behind your back, it's because you didn't raise them to trust you or you simply refuse to understand them or communicate with them.
The problem isn't the Internet. The problem isn't drugs (including alcohol). The problem isn't sex and violence in entertainment. The problem is the parents. My mother taught me morals, my mother was understanding, and I felt comfortable telling her anything. As a result, freedom with the Internet has never been a problem for me. I've grown up quite well and the Internet has been a valuable tool in my development.
The Internet is whatever your children make it out to be. Furthermore, your children model their behavior after what they learn from you. So, believe me: you're not suddenly going to resolve any shortcomings you've had with an Ask Slashdot.
Join Tor today!
One just has to wonder...
You're concerned about your children's use of a computer, and you're asking the *slashdot* crowd?
Why? You don't have the faintest idea of who these people actually are, yet you're asking them for advice on what to do with your children. These poeple *are* children, and though some that respond are adults, you'll never know the truth about who they really are.
I'd personally recommend that you find another way to get some assistance...
(The following is my OPINION. Treat it as such.)
Given: The truth will set you free.
Follows: The truth is that the human is a sexual being. You cannot hide the fact from nor delay the discovery by your children, who are not that young to not be able to reason. One way or another, they will discover their sexuality. Take away the porn and, later on, take away the experimentation with others, and you shall inhibit the maturation of your children. So what then happens when they increasingly enter an adult world, but with a child's sense of sexuality, and they are forced to develop it there?
So I say, be there for support. But let them have free range of access. Yes, even goatse. Remember that the goatse guy has done nothing himself to harm you. Your children will not, by seeing goatse, be doomed to pervert-dom. Really, the discomfort is, in actuality, in yourself.
Of course, who am I to question millenia of parental instinct?
Oh come on. It was a joke - a bad one, but a joke nonetheless. I have had much worse posts attached to my comments. I hope you get you some tonight! :)
Im 17 now, moved out to university, before though my parents trusted me and my younger siblings with our own pcs. Does it really matter if they see the stuff out there on a pc in their rooms or over at the friends house on their pc?
When you set rules, make it clear that there are legitimate reasons for these rules, and you're not just being tyranical. If you're concerned about things you've seen in the news happening to other children, bring those stories to your own children and a) show them that there is a serious danger, and b) ask for their input. Rather than simply telling them what rules they must adhere to for their own safety, give them a chance to think for themselves, and let them tell you what rules they think would be appropriate to prevent them from becoming victims themselves (as opposed to rules that would not be effective toward that goal). Once a consensus has been reached, make the agreed-upon rules mandatory and enforce them as you normally would.
Your kids know more about their own online activities than you do, so involving them in this process should result in more effective policies (they may think of rules you wouldn't have thought of, because you don't know what they might want to do). Most importantly, if they come up with the rules themselves and understand the reasons behind them, they will be far more likely to adhere to them when you're not standing over their shoulder than if you just handed down legislation from above. Finally, by honestly asking them for their input, you're showing them a great deal of respect that they may be unaccustomed to, and hopefully will respond in kind. That respect will likely make you the envy of their peers.
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
Your rules were a nice start. You however need to enforce them. Taking away computer priveleges for a week is a good start.
http://www.squid-cache.org/o rg/
http://dansguardian.
Both highly configurable.
However, speaking from personal experience, I would be more concerned with chat.
I don't want to preach; but, to me, the trust issue (as mentioned earlier) is the key to raising children. Trust them and let them know you trust them. But, children will screw up and loose that trust. Let them know that the trust is gone and let them know what it will take to get that trust back. And LET THEM EARN THE TRUST BACK. I have seen many parents that "give up" when a child becomes untrustworthy. When that happens, the child doesn't have anything to strive for in his/her parental relationship. Is this "Trust See-Saw" easy to handle? No, of course not.
Let me get back to the topic: Start young with teaching children what is appropriate and inappropriate. (For the parents with teens, it may not be too late to start, but it will be tough if you have to convince you child that certain clothes he/she has been wearing for two years are now inappropriate.) Is it easy to discuss this with children? It shouldn;t be hard.
Let me use a personal example: My son, at the time was age 9, went to spend the night at a friends house. While there they watched an austin powers movie. This came out in conversation a couple of days later. My wife and I were horrified that this happened, but we didn;t yell and hoot and holler. We asked about the movie and he told us about it (We had seen this movie a couple of years before at a friends house (Strange how things work out)) During this conversation we talked about attitudes toward women and sexuality. And we talked about whe we found certain things objectionable. But it wasn't a lecture. we were having a conversation and he understood why it was inapproriate when we had finished.
You may say, "Bah, kids can't handle that kind of talk." Well, you'd be suprised. It you are honest and open with your children in ALL areas, they will learn and respond in this type of conversational enviornment. A few months ago, My son was at an overnight with a few friends and a movie was going to be shown. He asked what it was rated and got a couple of friends to go into another room and play cards (or a board game, I can;t remember. He's in bed now, or I would ask him). But I think that takes some maturity. Maturity that comes from learning how to think along the lines of what is appropriate and what is not.
How does one get to a point where we can trust the kids to make good choices? As parents we should make good choices ourselves and explain these to the kids. Dinner is a great time for these discussions. And whenver something comes up, don;t hide it from the kids. Let them in one what is happeneing. Another example: A student from where I teach was kicked out of his house. We let him stay with use for a bit while things got straightened out. My children were, of course very curious about what was going on, and we told them about the neglect, abuse, and everything going on. My children were very welcoming and treated this person as a brother fot the time he was here. Since then, my son has volunteered his time at some charities in the area for other "transients."
Again, bak to the topic: In the manner of the internet, as with all areas, be open and honest. When you are deleting spam from your email, there is a great learning experience for the kids. "Look at this junk. Enlarge your breasts..." and get into a discussion about the previlence of sexual attitudes in society. It works, kids listen, and they will understand. Yesterday, When I was playing my father-in-law on some online chess and my kids were helping out, I got an offer across AIM (Through trillian) to check out some girls webcam. (Yea right.) Well what a great learning experience about the inappropriateness of the internet. We even went to the link, and sure enough, it was filtered out.
which leads me to...
Don;t let children surf without proper filtering. All of our computers run through an E-Smith server (modified red-hat small office gateway and server) which runs an excellent free SquidGuard filter. This doesn't mean that you don;t t
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
"First things first -- but not necessarily in that order"
-- The Doctor, "Doctor
Yeah...those awesome Iraqi "soldiers" that...oh, that's right, watched the two helicopters have a simple accidental collision.
Yeah, they rule...they're so observent! Nothing gets past their eyes...
Computers in their rooms? The computer should be in a family room designed for homework and studying. It is a tool not a plaything. They should be netowrked and go through where you can watch what they are doing keep logs and let them know that you do. They depend on you to protect and defend them. Do you let them play in the road? Do you give them the keys to your car? Do you buy porn films for them to watch? I agree they should be trusted to a point. I trust my kids, but I don't trust them to take the car to the store at 12, 13 and 15 and I don't trust that they will make the best decisions without some guidance.
You are, what I would call a "poor" parent.
I am sorry if that offends you. The Internet, whose primary profitable enterprise is porn, is no place for a budding youth.
I could go on and on about the threats the internet presents, but frankly, if you are dumb enough to let your kids have free access to everything the web has to offer, then you must be dead dumb and hopeless.
As for advice, I offer this. Give your kids kick ass computers and the best in educational and entertainment software. If the kids want internet access, let them use a puter that is where everyone can see.
Well, let the flames and lames commence.
I gave my 10 year old a P300 and he never uses it. I never, I mean never, let him use the internet.
Oh, yeah , I am a "hard ass", and this policy will apply until he leaves my house!
When he wants to use the internet I am right there. When he gets older, it will get harder to control, maybe I will just cancel the web service!
Well, I don't let him watch tv during the school year so what do I know?
Just because you aren't enforcing your authority with an iron fist doesn't mean you're letting them "slip under the influence" of satan, peer pressure, the RIAA, etc. etc.
I hate to sound like a f-ing idealist but kids don't learn to be responsible by being bossed around. They mostly learn by sensible advice, and by example. I'm in college now, but I don't waste my life getting drunk because my parents never drank, not because they filled my brain with rubbish about how it's bad for me. I know what's bad for me, and so do most kids. It's simply a matter of giving them reasons to care.
Despite dire warnings, we've gone ahead and gotten each of our adolescent (11, 12, and 15-year-old) children an SUV.
The real issue is not that they have the access, but is have you taught them how to drive first? Seriously, you can't reasonably put kids in a new situation and expect them to 'behave.' I get asked very often by well meaning parents, "how do I protect my child on the internet?" They of course are hoping I'll say buy xyz censorware and you never will have to worry. Instead the get a rant more like this:
Start early. Don't set a magic age of maturity when they can use the computer. Start as soon as possible in life. Buy an an extra mouse just in case you get peanut-butter in the current one. Its worth it.
Don't hide the computer in a corner or back room. Put it in the main living area, with the screen facing the room. Encourage the children to use it, but be available for questions and supervision. You wouldn't turn them loose on the streets without some guidance, the internet is no different.
Talk openly about the dangers you are concerned about. For example we had a no chat room policy until everyone understood and could discuss the need for skepticisim and the importance of not revealing identifying information.
After you are confident that they have the skills to be good citizens, then start giving them more freedom, just like you would with any other situation.
I've followed this system, and in the 10 years of net access in the house with 3 children, we've never had significant problems.
I'd say just leave them alone. The most naughty things they could be doing involve conversations with friends, plotting things. And you just cannot control those, so you have to let them go. As for porn...let it go. I mean, obviously have them leave the door open when you can, but if they're in their rooms late at night with the computer on and the door closed, just try to forget about it. They WILL find ways around all rules, so don't try to enforce weird and obscure ones. If you've done a good job as a parent, they won't be talking to strangers and what-not anyway, and anything they will be doing will be just as easily does in person or over the phone, so there's no point in trying to stop it over the Internet.
"One horsepower is the amount of energy it takes to drag a horse 500 feet in one second." (unattributed)
That dosn't make any sense at all. It would take far more then one horse power to drag a horse that fast with any resonable amount of friction.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Does anyone know of a support group?
...and you can't make your kids unsee what they've seen. Sexuality is formed in adolescence, and patterns of arousal and fantasies once formed are not easily unformed. We don't know what the effect of unfettered access to the artificial world of porn will have on this generation, but this is not your father's, or your, porn. When we were kids you sucked up your confidence and bought your copy of Playboy or Penthouse and some limits were in place by the editors of those publications. Now a child can grab an image of goat.cx as easily as a pinup. You are right to be concerned about this.
We tried the computer in the bedroom thing for a while and pulled it. Now it's in the kitchen. And I've shown the kids that everything they do on the internet is public. The squid proxy is a good idea. I wouldn't trust the filters (NetNanny et. al).
----- Indecision is the key to flexibility.
I've grown up quite well and the Internet has been a valuable tool in my development.
How has it helped you? And what makes you think youve "grown up well", "Jerk City Troll?" youre probably just the typical slashdot loser and what youre saying you've avoided is probably something you're into every night.
...the only rules I hated were the ones my parents wouldn't discuss. That would send me into a fury. I think George Carlin said it with something like: " 'Don't run in halls!' 'Why?' 'Because!'. 'Because', that's a sign of a bad rule right there. "
If you can't give more than "because", kids won't listen. You can apply any rules onto your child if you just give enough reason/present it well enough. Just put in the time to make your case. You can't just make a rule, and than expect everything to work out great. You have to put time and effort into it. You get what you put it. I find parents expect results from no work just because they are an "authority". Kids are smart too, they don't trust authority just because. And if they did, they may have a self-esteem probably(seriously, the really "good" kids commonly fall into depression).
If people would identify themselves as parents or not, when addressing their comments. I know many have; I just think that it would be helpful to the original poster.
I am not a parent, but I have five sisters and brothers who are, and it seems obvious that having a child changes your perspective of the world more than a little. It's easy to hit the man with all that "Trust your kids; you can't stop them anyway; I got into stuff and I'm fine" talk, but let's treat the man's concern as legit and try to see it from the concerned parent's perspective.
I've seen kids go through bad stuff and come out smelling like a rose, and I've seen good kids go a little off track and go down in a bad, bad spiral. (I was a youth counsellor) It's tough to tell ahead of time which is gonna be which, and saying "I turned out ok" is like saying my uncle had a VW Bug and it ran great (or didn't) so they all must.
Anyway, that's just a suggestion.
My $.02: telling them that they can't hide stuff from you only works if you then resist the tendency to be intrusive. Imagine that a friend says to you: promise that you'll answer my next question truthfully. If you trust the person, you may agree without hearing the question. But if the friend abuses it and asks about stuff that isn't his or her business, forcing you to either lie or cough up things meant to be secret, you won't allow that level of trust again. It's like borrowing money -- should come with two guarantees: I guarantee to pay you back if you guarantee not to worry about it and lord it over my head. Mutual respect.
If you create a system of mutual respect with your kids, they will feel terrible if they betray it. If they believe that you don't trust them, they will live up to that expectation, too.
Call me old fashioned, but I don't think that young children should go to pr0n sites.. I passively monitor the sites they go to with Linksys Log viewer I've caught all the kids going to inappropriate sites at one point or another. Each time they get grounded from their computer for a few days or a week. I also installed DameWare Mini Remote Control on their computers so at anytime I can take a look at what they have on their screen from the comfort of my own computer. With this setup it is kind of hard to monitor their Chat conversations.I've heard that SpectorSoft is good for Key Capture, Site Logging, Chat Logging, and Screen Shot Logging, but it costs $99. Other than that I don't actively block any sites, but when they are grounded I exclude their IP from the router. Seems I periodically remove Gator type programs from the computer that belongs to our youngest child. The Youngest is also the best at Q3A and Urban Terror! He sometimes even beats me when we go head to head.
Go somewhere else to ask about your kids, because if you screw up, you screw them up some, too. Talk to friends, family. Sheesh, do you _know_ anybody here?
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
"Arafat 'Diverted $300M Of Public Money To Swiss Bank Account'"
WOW. That totally legitemizes the occupation of 3 million people by a democracy. It justifies torturing palestenians, knocking their houses down, fencing them in like dogs, rounding them up the thousands and locking them up without access to lawyers, and of course keeping hundreds of thousands men, women and children under curfew thereby preventing them from getting to their jobs and schools. Needless to say it also justifies killing a few thousand innocent civillians every year too.
Arafat and Sharon are equally evil.
Make their computer boot off of a partition they have not otherwise got access too, and then allow them to save files only in a specified directory, any "added" files in the other directories get deleted.
;-)
I have seen computers at my college (the university of kansas) business school labs, where no matter how much you saved to them, it would delete itself after you logged off, except for what you saved to your personal network share.
If you do this, or something similar, then you can basically audit what your children do. Also, having a browser helper object that is "hidden" that keeps a log file of all internet traffic is also good (i wrote one for the last business i was at to keep track of what people were downloading).
With these steps there is not a whole lot they can do.
If you take a product such a securikey, from www.securikey.com you can actually bar them from access to the computer, unless they have the securkey, and you can control when they have the key.
anyway hope that is some ideas, someoen should make a software package that does this kind of thing
Buzz OUT.
If you don't vote, you don't matter, so don't waste your time telling me your opinion
What about rules for parents?
My Father was over from England on holiday a few months ago and said one night he had never really used a computer to "surf" the web, so we showed him Google and went out for dinner, with Dad at home to "do some surfing".
When we got home I said something to the effect of, "OK, let's see what kind of stuff you were looking at", my Father says "Erm", but too late. There's the History for all to see and, what's this? Cunnilingus!!!!!
DAD!!!!
He went so red I thought he was going to explode. A cruel thing to do, but wtf.
I'm 20, and I have no children, but the other day (seriously) I was thinking about what kind of internet access I would allow my kids to have..
Proxy port 80: Use something like squid and proxy up port 80 and don't allow any regular traffic on 80 otherwise. Then tell your kid that you can see what websites they're checking out, just to keep them accountable. Doesn't mean you actually have to check the caches constantly. If ever..
No "Speedy Minimization" Rule: I remember the times I was talking to girls when I was younger, it wasn't anything bad, it was just something I didn't wish to share with my parents. I can understand seeing your kid quickly minimizing a photo of albino midget porn, but emails/IMs, I think that's just as intrusive as insisting that your kids let you bug their telephone conversations. How would you like your kids listening on a separate phone to all your conversations?
that is all,
Klowner
I would argue that companies like Disney corp have done more harm to our nations children than all the other culprits combined. It is a simple scientific fact that the average child over the age of 8 has more thinking and mental capacity than most full grown adults - yet we still continue to treat them like stupid, inmature, idiots and hide them from the real world. If we focused as much on teaching people how to exercise controll over their lives, and encouraging responsibility as we did from hiding kids (and especially teens) from the real world. I think you'd be amazed at how many teenage "problems" wouldn't be problems anymore. It's no wonder so many teens rebel nowdays.
The first thing you need to do is check to see if your teenage son is a computer hacker. There are helpful guidelines outline here.
Hope that helps!
I strongly advise you to let your children make mistakes and learn about the world. Trying to protect them from every possible ill of the world will backfire and surely by the time they graduate high school they will have many problems. I still have serious social problems as a result of my parents control structures. I've also had to learn lessons that people with normal parents had learned as teenagers. Believe me trying to protect your children from the world is just a recipe for a whole lot of pain in their future.
does everybody lie about what they're doing on the Internet?"
Ye... er, no!
...you're a pussy. Sorry, that's the truth and not a troll. Here's the evidence:
Unfortunately we've had instances where all of these rules - especially that last one - have been broken, so now we are looking at getting more specific.
Now you're "looking at getting more specific"? Fuck, man, what the hell? Your kids have broken the rules, repeatedly apparently, and now you're considering doing something? What, the stern talking to didn't work? Did you try shaking your fist at them too?
Parents, once you're past making the huge mistake of actually letting the kids have computers in their rooms
Ummm, did you think about undoing the mistake? You've told us it's a mistake...now it's time to tell your kids as well. Then take the computers out and set up a family computer area. Yes, your children will be mad but that's how it goes. You get respect by setting limits, enforcing fair rules, and admitting to mistakes you have made.
You don't have to be a hammer but you do need to be firmer than you are now. You are not in the house to be a buddy, you're there to be a parent. You've set very lenient boundaries (computers in the rooms? Man...), they've shown that those boundaries are too loose (breaking the rules) so it's time to move the boundaries in. Let them earn the privleges you've given them...it seems they've taken them for granted.
There is a reason 11, 12, and 15 year olds can't just go out, quit school, and get an apartment. They think they're ready, they think they're adults, but they're not. That's your job. Now get to it.
Oh, and check out the site in my sig too.
Stay away from 15 years old - my parents would really discredit themselves in my eyes if they tried to snooped on what I regarded as my private life at 15.
Deal with time they spend surfing just like you'd deal with TV time (but I think TV is way more evil than Internet), especially if you see that gets into the way with reading, sports or non-virtual friends.
Supposedly you have a router in your home network. Many routers keep an access log. Keep an eye on it - just in case. Also occasionally you could look in the browser history. You should be concerened not to be too invasive, but in most cases it works automatically - from the access log you'll get an equivalent of the phone call log, but without their passwords you will not get to their content (which is good).
Peter
If I ever had cause to monitor my kids, then I'd just run `tcpdump` against their IPs from my Linux box. I would monitor everything without disrupting them.
And I only think it is because of our Puritan society. I know legally you are required to be 18 to look at porn, but it is a consequence of our overly Puritan society.
Unfortunately, our nation's leaders don't seem to understand that once our children hit puberty (esp. male), they will want to get some sexual gratification.
I say let them look at all the porn they want. If they are male, they probably already are looking at it. And don't deny that you didn't look at it when you were a kid.
The only thing you should forbid them against is blantantly illegal activity, such as cracking into other people's computers. If they become interested in hacking, setting up a local honey pot and let them play around with it.
You are going to have to do several things in order to keep the internet "clean".
* First and formost you must talk to your kids about the reasons for these rules and do your best to help them understand them(obviously not always possible).
* Secondly you should impliment a technological solution not netnanny or anything that runs on their local system that is easily bypassed. Block port 80 and setup a proxy for html access, preferably one that blocks inappropriate sites. I don't have one to recommend but I'm sure someone knows of an open source proxy that make work, ask around. And make sure you are watching the logs. Also check with your kids to make sure that the web is still usable for them with what ever rules are setup.
When my child is old enough, I will feel secure with her being on the web by having because I'll have both these methods in place.
BTW (Personal Pet Peeve) - If your child ever says "don't you trust me" it probably and indication that in this instance you shouldn't. (I know that was the case for me when I was growing up)
We don't need no stinking sig!
I was given a PC with internet access in my room at age 16.
I did have a mother who was rather suspicious of my doings anyways, which taught me to always be covert in everything I do. She also over-reacts to everything, constantly. This behavior taught me to constantly lie to her on a regular basis, especially about my online activities. So don't be a snoop and go looking for things to give your kida hell over, and be level-headed if you do find your kid in posession of porn or doing other "undesirable" things online. Going thermo-nucler over everything will only tech him or her to lie to you , and that's not a good thing.
If you do catch your kid looking at stuff they shouldn't be, make sure they understand why you don't like them to look at this material. Something more than "because I say so". That line has irked me for all time, and probably lead to my being a major pain in the ass in my teenage years more than anything else. Why should I do something just because it's said so? I want to know what grounds that decision was made on, and at that age I felt I deserved to know.
I do understand how you wnat them to ahve an "open-door" policy, but the internet is almost like using the phone anymore, and I doubt you would have your kids conduct a private talk with their friends in open doors. Kids need their bit of privacy too. Doesn't mean you totally ignore them, but let them do as kids do.
Some DSL routers have fitler lists that will email you when innapropriate sites are visited, those can be of some use, just let your kid know if you are using that.
Really the same concepts as dealing with your kid in general extend to online behavior, don't treat them like some sort of criminal, it will only make them sneaky about things, just be open and level-headed. It makes things so much easier for the kid, and will probably make it easier for you.
When I was about 13 years old, my dad got internet access for us because I was about to enter high school and he felt it was very important for us to learn how to use the internet and how to use it to our advantage. *At this time I wanted to be a doctor*
;)
Well little did I know (he is a project manager/systems analyst / programmer) there was a way in which you could see what others were doing via Internet Explorer's history and temporary internet files. Well he caught me once and warned me, and then he caught me twice and restricted my internet access. I didn't know it was restricted until I went looking for pictures of *ahem* where it gave me a message that this site was blocked.
I was very upset at this and I called my dad and told him that I couldn't do research for school because it blocked every site. Well time went on and nothing changed so I decided to learn about Windows 95, how I could bypass these filters and how I could take control of the computer. A few months went on and I learned how to backup data across multiple floppy disks, how to reinstall Windows 95 using DOS commands, several floppy disks, and the Windows CD and most importantly how to load SCSI drivers since we had an awesome 4x cdrom. So one day after school I ran home and flushed the system (I learned about fdisk doing searches). I fdisked, formatted, reinstalled windows, get everything up to look like it was before the clean install and when I installed AOL was home free.
By this time I was so interested in computers that I locked myself in my room and read everything I could about hacking and cracking, I came across the warez scene and saw it as the most vital part of my computing experience. Next came IRC which took some time to learn all the commands but after that it was smooth sailing from then on it.
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Fast forward to 2003
I am now a junior at the New Jersey Institute of Technology, majoring in IT and doing a concentration in network security. For some time now I have been the go-to-guy for everyone's computer needs.
Moral of the story you ask? Don't piss these kids off because one day you may need their help and their services.
and yes, I still lock myself in my room and go on the computer
a little off topic, but I wanted to share it with everyone
Kids are going to lie and rules will be broken. There are no quick solutions however this is what I suggest: Keep fighting for your kids by staying involved in what they do online. They'll fight you now, but your work will eventually pay off.
Simple solution. Set rules for your kids, but also set an iptables logging rule.
Don't become a regular here, you will become retarded. -- Yoda the Retard
Remind your kid of this. There are rules. No way would I make a 15 yr old leave the bedroom door open all the time, but if they end up spending ALL their time in there I would make sure they were provided more "opportunities" to interact with real life people. And if they were hitting porn I still wouldn't make it a problem unless it became clear that was ALL they were doing.
A router will keep logs, and those logs will reveal pretty much everywhere the people in the house have been. So leave the router logs open and accessible by everyone in the house - that keeps the playing field level (thus not saying "I am spying on you because I do not trust you") and gives them an opportunity to police each other but also to come down on dad if it looks like he's the one who's been frequenting fuckmedaddy.com. This will give them a taste of real life and still provide an air of respecting one another's immediate privacy.
Porn and warez galleries are not healthy places for anyone, no matter their age. I do not allow that sort of traffic on my own home lan and never would, and it has nothing to do with whether or not I like porn (which I don't, but only because I find most of it so incredibly boring). If you use ecommerce or banking sites (or even personal accounting software) all it takes is for Joey's computer to get rooted to make mom and dad's financial records vulnerable to inopportune disclosure. Businesses have firewalls for a reason, and most homes should probably have them, too. I would not do any realtime monitoring or net nannying, but I would have no qualms about reminding them of the priviledges of administrator access to machines on a network. Remind them of why these rules exist (especially about the rootkits and backdoors that are so popular on those "free" thumbnail galleries and warez sites).
Sermon
The local TV station ran a week of "special reports" about how plain clothes officers acting as "predators" were able to entice kids into their vehicles even while in public spaces before the (now shocked and terrified) parents knew what happened. Lots of fearmongering, and you almost NEVER see the truth reported - that stranger abductions are extremely rare (even Polly Klass and Elizabeth Smart were NOT stranger abductions, but were by people known in the neighborhood and even in their homes). They conveniently ignore the fact most children are molested in their own homes by a parent or guardian, afraid of even hinting at how commonplace the problem might really be, and who the real devils are in this world.
In short: fearing the internet is like fearing TV in 1960. Lots of people do it now, as they did then - but ignorance, then as now, is the far greater enemy. If your children trust you then you have nothing to fear, and if they don't then you have no one to blame but yourself when they live up to your worse expectations.
I guess it wouldn't help if I said that most Slashdotters probably had unrestricted access when they were kids too...
Join Tor today!
Oooh. But, Porn. Nekkid people!
People who are going to become screwed up by this are going to do so regardless. If there are people walking around who aren't dangerously blithering only because they didn't have the option of exploring things on their own, then I am not encouraged. This is not television violence. This is not drug use. This is not fast food designed to be addictive. This is not video games. This is not culture and fashion as promoted by music videos.
--Didja know that Britney Spears' videos were created by none other than, Greg Dark, noted for his previous work in distributing child-porn? He was making the infamous Tracy Lords films when the girl was 13. Today he's also today making videos for Mandy Moore and the pre-pubescent Leslie Carter. This guy should be bloody knighted for his work in screwing up culture and creating an environment which has caused a ballooning of the multi-billion dollar pedephillia market, which today dwarfs even Disney as a money-making engine. People blame the web? Wrong! The web is simply a means to express individual will. Television is the mind-programmer. Television is the culture destroyer.
Of all things in pop-culture, I think that the web is one of the very few which may not be directly destructive at all. By raw necessity it incorporates the user's choice in every click and action, and because it is possible for regular PEOPLE to create powerful content, not just the corporations. Channel surfing only provides choices from a barrel of mostly rotten apples. The web gives you an entire orchard.
Further, there is nothing, (to my knowledge), about the web which is directly physiologically addictive/destructive. The web is nothing more than ideas and images and sounds, all of which can be turned off without exiting the web itself. Even the freekin' advertising is an option! Amazing! The web, unlike television, does not almost instantly lull the brain into a hypnotic state of scientifically measurable suggestibility! People think they are not affected by television media? STUPID! People aren't even properly conscious when they watch television, for crying out loud! But with the web, brain activity actually increases! --Depending, of course on the choices of the user. One can just as easily slide into stupidity on the web if they want to. --But it is through choice, not through an addictive craving to sit down in front of 'Friends' or 'CNN' or some other bullshit, you know; to relax after a hard day's work.
--Yes, young kids should be taught to exercise caution in chat rooms, etc., because there are predatory adults in this world. (A lot more of them today thanks to the likes of Greg Dark.) This is a sad truth, and it's best to learn these survival skills. If you want to protect your kids, teach them about the ugliness in the world; teach them not to be afraid of it, but how to recognize trouble and how to deal with it. You are not helping them by looking over their shoulders, re-enforcing guilt culture while they seek to learn about sexuality. Oooh, sexuality and guilt. There's a healthy combo!
Frankly, I'd be more concerned about a kid's exposure to the EM bubble created by a CRT monitor, and by that soothing flicker which plays a role in the creating of hypnotic states of awareness in the viewer. Get them a flat screen, tell them about the world and how it works, teach them not to fear or shy away from ugly truths, and encourage balanced activities in their lives. Happiness comes from self-determination, and self-determination comes from awareness and action. Soothing lies deplete and destroy.
-FL
There have been many comments suggesting pretty much anything from a total lack of monitoring to constant monitoring. One thing that should be kept in mind is that the children and the parents are unique individuals. There are no universal answers to questions like this. What's good for one teen might not be good for another teenager and vice versa.
Try this: let them do what they want. They'll learn from themselves. If they stumble over something that bothers them, they won't go back. No matter how corny this sounds, I'm gonna say it because it needs to be bluntly obvious: your 15 year old is at a time in his/her life where they're mind and body is wanting sexual activity somehow. Mind you that sexual activity is not necessarily sex. It could just be looking at porn, or masturbating. As the first poster said, if your 15 year old wasn't looking at porn by now, then I'd be concerned. Your 11 and 12 year olds are another story. It really all depends on their mental age in combined consideration with their physical age. I'm willing to bet that they haven't discovered the extent of sexuality yet. Also, there is the issue of privacy. Just as you don't necessarily tell strangers your income, they don't want you to know who they've got a crush on. To cap it off, I'd suggest this: let them know that they can govern themselves. Once they get over the thrill of being allowed freedom, they'll be fine. They're going to explore. Let them. They'll get over it.
--<Mike>--
whats most scary is that any of you reproduced.
The old and much misinterpreted saying.
The rod spoken of is a shepards' crook ("thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me"), not a stick for beating children. Guidance, not violence, is what is being prescribed.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
As a 17 year-old these are the rules I follow.
Since my parents are divorce I live at both of their places; half the time at my mothers, half at my fathers. My mom has no clue on how to use the computer so I do what I want. I wait until she is asleep and I look for some skin. My father is computer savvy and I know he could figure out what I was downloading. I hardly ever download at his place. If I do I cover my tracks, but its not worth the effort or the risk so I have only done it once in the past year. I do have my screen saver set to a collection of pin ups so he knows what team I bat for, if you know what I mean.
Off topic, but I follow the opposite for warez. My dad encourage me to download movies and mp3s. He even set up a server for our collection. On the other hand, my mom got angry when she found out I downloaded some movies. Since then I have tried to make my warez downloading less publicly known.
I just very recently passed the stage where my parents were concerned with what I was looking at online. At about age 15, my father signed up with a local ISP and in a heartbeat I had the whole world at my fingertips. At first I thought the internet was all innocent but oh how quickly that changed.
;) Like I said, if the children are popping up screen savers and clicking like mad when you walk by, ask questions. Check history files, get nosey. Best yet, TELL THEM you are going to scan their history files. Tell them you can find out what they do no matter what (you can with a little software). Scare tactics work.
At 16 I started searching for things that might not exactly be what my father intended for me to search for (details withheld, for decency reasons) really... even if a child is using the internet for the 'wrong' reasons, it can be a very educational experience. If the child is open about their surfing habits, the act of finding something objectionible can segway into a fruitful discussion on sex, violence, drugs or anything of the ilk. As long as the child respects the opinion of the parent and knows that the pages they read online can be written by any yokel with half a brain cell... it might be alright.
So should a parent play roulette like this, hoping a child will be open and understanding about the situations that appear online? No. While I was into... what I was into, I did some VERY stupid things that could have easily got me killed. It's been 3 or 4 years, I still surf for those things and my parents still don't know; but at 19 I know better.
Really, it all comes down to what you do as a parent. The three golden rules to apply here are:
1.) Involvement. Flip on the computer while your child is at school and read the history files. If they're cleaned out, be suspicious. Ask questions. When my dad walked by the computer and asked what I was doing, I HATED it, but 3 years later, I understand.
2.) Software. Install a filter or a proxy to monitor wheres, whens, and whats of the children's surfing habits. A friend of mine and her sister had both their computers tied through a proxy that ran a single copy of filtering and time-limiting software. This is very effective if you have enough computers and bandwidth to do it because the children can't try to hack with the software on the proxy.
3.) Common Sense. A parent's secret weapon
All in all, putting a computer in a child's room is screwing yourself. But it might be a good thing for the child's growth. No matter what, your attempts to protect the child will result in the child lashing out and screaming 'invasion of privacy'. They will understand later that you only wish to protect them. Talk alot, get involved and do the best you can.
The equation for the perfect parent doesn't exist. Every child needs a different parenting style and every parent does things their own way.
Thinking outside the box is so big now that doing so is really putting youself back in the box. There is no box.
Basically, the rules for me are mostly time-based. Not too much time (ways for getting around THAT - Alt-F4 is your friend, run back to whatever you were supposed to be doing in that room (vacuuming, whatever)), basically.
;-) Getting the Cat-5 yanked? It's happened to me, but there's always their XP box (what I'm typing this on, but my Cat-5's been kept in - it's the video card - some freaky combo of SuSE Live-Eval 9.0 RC1, a KHypermedia CD-RW, and a cheapo Trigem Cognac mobo).
As for actual Internet rules, be careful around strangers, don't reply to spam, bla bla bla, etc., etc., etc., and if I found porn, hand the URL over (I think it was a joke, though... - like I'd admit to finding porn). History? IE4+ allows for partial history deletion, and I use Opera anyway
I'm 21 and only a few years out of the parents' house. I don't plan on having kids, but here go my two cents anyway.
First things first let's look at two possible scenarios:
- You don't censor your kids, and they go look at porn.
- You censor your kids, and they break your proxy or censorware, or they go to the library, or they go to a friend's house, or they get magazines... and they look at porn.
Like it or not, your kids are going to see it. No question about it. Remember your first nudie mag? Or perhaps it was just a few pictures... Point is, it's perfectly healthy for them to see this stuff. About all you're going to do by making a big deal about it is make them want to see it more. Make a small deal about it so they still get a little excitement, but don't make a huge deal out of it or they're going to end up searching for this stuff out of spite.Now, (perhaps) more than ever before, it's impossible to completely control what your kids are exposed to. Kids are impressionable, sure, but the way to help shape them right is not to protect them from certain impressions, but rather to add your own where needed. Tell them about porn. Tell them about sex. Please tell them about sex, so they don't end up learning everything they know from the net like I had to.
Don't be shy about telling them all about what they might find on the net. Tell them about pedophiles. Tell them about porn, hell, even show them some if they're still curious. If they see it while you're around, you still have a modicum of control, and you can add your own comments. DON'T demonize it or they'll just want it more.
I suggest as others have that you bring your computers out into the house. I chafed at that as a kid, but without it I probably wouldn't have socialized much with the family. I didn't get a computer with internet in my room until I bought my own and I ran the phone wire and put in a jack myself.
Finally, respect your kids' privacy. There are plenty of things I did, net or otherwise, that the parents Just Didn't Need to Know. Don't watch the screen, they don't want you in on their gossip. Having the computer out in the house will make it so they won't do anything naughty too often; it's limited to when you're not around.
Remember, they will access the darker side of the web, so your job is just to limit it and make it less of a big thing.
Oh, one last thing, don't remove the computers entirely. Giving them internet access gives them a leg up in the world. They'll be tech savvy, probably savvier than you in the future. This is good, this helps them get paid. Learning how to program at age 14 gave me a HUGE advantage at college.
Quite honestly, by the time they're about 14 there's nothing you can do to protect them any more. If you stop them from seeing porn on the internet, they'll manage to see it in magazines. If you don't want them to hear about the Bad Things out there, they'll just hear about them from other sources.
By the time they enter highschool, your children have already had their foundation laid. Hopefully you did a good job. From there on out it's a matter of exploring the world around them and developing high level understandings, and they cannot do that if you keep them from experiencing it. If you gave them the right foundation, they will experience it and make the right decisions.
I have a daughter and I have decided that she will not have her own computer until the age of 13 or 14. Even then, I will be keeping a close eye on what she does with it.
It is not a trust issue to me but a safety/legal issue. First, there are adults out there trying to entice children and teens to meet them. Second, she could end up doing something that breaks the law (such as copyright infringement via file sharing or cracking) and since it would be happening under my roof, I am responsible to know what is going on.
I know some of you might think that this is harsh or overbearing but you also need to remember one thing: I don't owe my daughter a computer or internet access. It is a privilege, not a right.
As someone with a one-week old daughter, I am looking ahead with some trepidation to the kinds of decisions you find yourself making now. Needless to say I will be reading this thread with great interest, although the issues will likely be much different when my child is the age yours are now.
:) Still, I really enjoyed that computer, so it was a tool my parents could use for discipline.
Likewise, things were much simpler when I was a child. I had a computer when I was 12, but it was a TRS-80 with a cassette drive and 32KB of RAM. I hadn't even a clue what a modem or BBS was. Not much trouble I could get into there
I still remember the time my mother took away my computer until I brought my grade up in English class. MAN was I steamed. But hey, it worked. Something to consider...
Seriously, you're just going to turn your kids into sneaky liars. Realize that they'll be adults soon, and allow them to prepare for adulthood as much as they can while they're under your wing.
Birds practice flying before leaving the nest for good. Let them have their practice.
Somebody get that guy an ambulance!
I'd think specifically about what your worries are before laying down laws. A well-adjusted young adolescent won't be Scarred for Life by anything on the internet (except the stuff that scars us all :). I'd worry more about whether or not they're able to contextualize what they see or read -- since they WILL encounter porn, hate speech, etc. eventually, rules or no. In any case, I'd drop the "door open" policy, at least for the older ones: adolescents need some privacy to be able to start leading their own lives. And I'd be wary of surveilling your kids in general, unless there is something specific to worry about (i.e., lots of gun-related websites).
When I was a teenager, I made many lifelong friends in the Teen Trivia chat rooms on the Prodigy Interactive Service. Since the rooms were more about playing trivia games than meeting people, perverts didn't really have much of a chance to get very far without being found out and being booted from the service. The fact that in order to have a main Prodigy account reqired billing information also kept the chatrooms on the overall service in check as well.
Of course, the Prodigy Interactive Service never turned a profit, and in the fall of 1999 it was shutdown as the company focused on their ISP which was at the time called Prodigy Internet. AOL's still left standing, but from what I've seen their chat and forum areas aren't anything like what they were in online's "glory days."
Are there any safe-for-teens chat environments left standing?
Site down and talk to your kids first. Then do as I do: Install a router/firewall and use one of the free monitor programs to look at the traffic. Anything that is not allowed, block it at the router/firewall and let them know that you are watching. Turn on logging for the times you can't watch so you can see if they try it. Once they know that there are rules and ways for you to enforce them by watching, they will be less inclined to go to "those" sites. Those that think this is snooping, yes it is, and more parents should be aware of what their kids are up to.
Our family computer was at a desk a few feet away from the table. I was a teenage boy. Every time they were gone I was wanking it within "spitting" distance of where we ate our meals.
Going along with the respect idea: decide which of your kids' rules could reasonably apply to you as well, and submit yourself to them. Some of them will sound like they don't apply because you wouldn't do those things anyway - fine, you should have no trouble adhering to those particular rules. Others should not apply because you're an adult; hopefully your children will agree with this principle and thus also agree that you should not be bound by those rules.
Keep the door open when you're on the computer - is that a reasonable expectation for you yourself to adhere to? If not, be careful about asking your kids to do it. Don't quickly exit from everything when we walk past. Don't ever lie to us about what you're doing. It should be pretty easy to adhere to those. See what I mean? By making it clear that you intend to follow the same rules, you're sending a signal that the rules should be followed not because you said so, but because it's the right thing to do.
Actions speak far louder than words. Remember, teenagers rebel against parental authority, but they don't generally rebel against doing the right thing, unless they confuse the two. They can't rebel against your authority by breaking these rules if they see that you're subject to the same rules yourself, because that means the rules aren't really handed down by your authority, they're just common sense and apply to everyone.
Don't underestimate the power of respect.
Finally, and this is sort of a meta-question from an exasperated dad, does everybody lie about what they're doing on the Internet?
Do you? If not, then the answer is no.
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
Parents, once you're past making the huge mistake of actually letting the kids have computers in their rooms
So, Kent, how long have you been beating your wife?
Not only does it encourage isolation, but it discourages them from healthy activity (you know, riding your bike, sports)
How is dancing not "healthy activity"?
Will I retire or break 10K?
A bit of a gross generalisation to write off irish people as wrong! would you not think?
Dad,
I have never accessed porn on the internet.
Love,
Your son.
i can tell you one thing, do not try to block them. do not try to log them. children are smarter than you, they will find a way around all of your measures. thats why you should treat them as your children and not as your enemy. your enemies are crackers and stuff, trying to get into your network. they are kids too, and they will find a way around but you have a big advantage with your children: you can talk to them, and they will listen. and dont worry if they are looking for porn or something. what if they do? even if you block those sites, they can look at these from somewehere else. or they can watch TV, magazines. they are kids, they have friends and can get porn so dont try to block that, it's useless. but, if it helps you sleep at night, you can try and do it. just install some proxy and set it up to do transparent proxying on a nat box (otherwise they'd just reconfigure their browsers to go around the nat box). don't do what is done in schools and stuff: proxy-or-nothing (proxying all, deny nat traffic) because you'll bust their IRC, FTP, IM and all that stuff. and about e-mails and IMs, just the normal "don't talk to strangers" applies.
this is no different than a corporation...
1: nazi firewall, no outbound access except for services absolutely needed.
2: proxy server, logging.
3: tell 'em all their accesses are logged and reviewed.
-- I am. Therefore, I think!
--This sig is pr0n free
- Don't treat people online in a way that you wouldn't treat them face-to-face.
- Don't use Mom and Dad's credit cards on the net (e.g., for access to porn sites).
- If you talk to anyone you don't already know in meatspace, you should not give them any information that would let them figure out your real identity.
If the point of the rules was to forbid porn simply because you disapprove of porn, well OK, you're not obliged to subsidize porn access for them, but then why in God's name did you put computers in their rooms, and give them internet access? I mean c'mon, let's get real -- hormones are powerful things.Find free books.
My wife is a social worker that deals with child sexual abuse cases. The Internet is a great thing, but it is a VERY useful way for offenders to find victims. And just thinking "My kids are smarter than that or I'm keeping close watch" is not even good enough. People who do these things are very good at getting what they want and sometimes all it takes is a chat program.
My advice. Have one computer in the house and keep it out in the open. And only allow them to use chat programs when parents are around.
It may sounds like I'm over reacting, but you haven't heard about the monsters my wife has to deal with.
It's that simple. You must let the child know.
1. I run shit around here!
2. I can invade your privacy at any time I choose.
3. I won't invade your privacy unless you give me a reason to.
4. You don't have to agree with everything that I say, but you do have to obey.
5. If you think I'm mistaken, you can talk to me and I'll consider changing my mind.
6. Decisions have consequences. Break my rules and you'll face my punishment.
If your child(ren) has (have) broken every rule that you set for them to use the internet in their room, revoke it. Take it away. I'm sorry if this next part sounds harsh, but YOU ARE THE FUCKING PARENT! You are the one who runs shit in your house! You don't need me to tell you this.
Put your foot down. It's not that complicated.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
I work part time in a primary school while I study.
There are rules that teachers impose such as the ones presented in the original post.
But more restrictive are things at the education department level. about what we can and cannot put on the schools web site (ie pictures of the kids), sites can be blocked.. even to the point that google images searches are blocked altogether because of porn.
I do use squid and iptables as the only gateway (pointing at the parent cache run by the department) and it does require individual logins. I have never had to check the logs for who was looking at what.
chat is blocked, but I have writen a simple chat program that the kids use internaly. It also logs conversations.
I dont like the fact that they have no privacy, I do like the fact that I have done my best to prevent nasty things from happening so that when something does i have a leg to stand on
That explains it. If they're Eagle Scouts, then they already see enough porn when the scoutmaster asks them to "stay after".
Oh, wait, Internet Access. I must be looking at too much porn.
Well, if you couldn't tell from the previous text, I am in the second camp. And I can tell you that BECAUSE my parents gave me a reasonable degree of privacy, I was more truthful to them. I also increased our trust, because I felt they trusted me to make the right decisions.
Now, I'll be the first to admit, I've done some things that I probably shouldn't have, and I will never tell them about it, and they MAY have found out if they pried more into my life, but guess what, I'm a better person for experiencing those things, and I also would have lost all my trust in them if they pried enough to find out. Now, I'm not saying I'm innocent in all this, I'm just saying them knowing about what I've done and trying to make me feel bad about it wouldn't have changed things in the least. I would have still done those things.
Parents, give us kids SOME credit. We're not as stupid as you think we are. We do learn from our experiences.
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
dude if you have a girl and she is under 20 years old and she has a webcam she will take topless pictures of herself guaranteed. peer pressure is a bitch. my advice: take the fucking computer out of their room. and if you insist on putting it in her room at least take away the digicam/webcam.
Ask yourself: Why is it your business to know what they are doing? What are you concerned about?
If you're concerned about your children coming across something you don't like, then NEWSFLASH: If they can't look at it at home, they'll look at it at a friends house, or find a way to hide it from you. If it's against the rules, it's automatically cool.
Teat children like they're stupid, they will do their best to prove to themselves that they know how to get away with whatever you've forbidden them, and they will manage.
If it's your kids physical safety you're worried about, then be upfront about that with your kids. Explain to them that sometimes adults try to trick kids to meet up, and because of that there are certain, very limited, rules to keep them safe. Even discuss the rules with them to make sure they AGREE with you. If they don't agree, they'll try to bend it. And more importantly: Establish a may for them to arrange legitimate meetings with people they talk to - allow them to meet if you're present at first to confirm the person they meet are who they say they are, etc.. In other words: Take away the reasons for them to lie and break your rules.
"Hey, son. I found out that you were looking at lesbian porn. Do you admit to this?" "Uh....Yes, Father. I'm sor-" "Okay, son. Upload it to my computer."
Finally, and this is sort of a meta-question from an exasperated dad, does everybody lie about what they're doing on the Internet?
No. Why lie about it? I've downloaded big heaps of porno. Played poker. Met women. Pirated software/movies/music. And no less than once per day I log onto Slashdot.
If your child is a boy, you don't even have to ask. He was looking at porno. If your child is a girl, someone was talking dirty to her and she didn't want you to know.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
No. I mean, not too often. Well, sometimes. Okay, fine, I'm not really 6'4", fabulously wealthy, and have a 9 inch cock. Under my red mini-skirt. Which I wear when I pick up hot 18-year old sluts who will do anything for money!
Now that I've gotten my smart-assedness out of my system, I think it's time you looked at the basics of human development.
Kids grow. In doing so, they will expect their own privacy and freedom. With that goes responsibility. Would you let your 11 year old go to a party unsupervised? Probably not. Would you let your 15 year old? Well, judging from your attitude, probably not. I would. As long as your kids are getting good grades and have their shit pretty much together, let them do their own thing. If they want money from you, make them mow the yard. If they want a ride, tell them to clean up their room first. If they choose to walk rather than that, don't bitch at them. It's their choice. You need to slowly relax the reins, so that when they are 18 and go off to college, they have the skills and maturity to adjust, rather than just going "Woo-hoo! I don't have to listen to anyone anymore! I'm gonna fuckin' party". That's a big part of the problem. If you think your kids aren't interested in sex, intoxicants ( drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, whatever ), bands, parties, etc., you're wrong. Weren't you? It's a matter of degrees, and knowing what is healthy.
And doesn't it strike you as odd that your child feel the need to lie to you? My personal experience has been that it's easier to tell the truth, so I don't waste time lying unless it's worth it. Ex. : if you could just tell a cop : "Look I busted my headlight last week, but I haven't had time to replace it" and he just gave you a warning, would you feel the need to to tell him you hadn't noticed it, someone must have hit your car in the parking lot? I wouldn't bother if I could, but is telling the truth worth the hassle of going to court and paying a fine? Not in my books, because whether the cop believes my lie or not, noone is hurt ( except for maybe the county, who is deprived of a $150 that they could waste as well as my tax dollars are ).
A computer is a tool. Internet access is a problematic tool, because it's a gateway to so much. What are you really worried about? Kids looking at porn? What, and you never looked at porn? Never masturbated? If you say no, you're full of shit. Being exposed to violence/hateful themes, etc? That's around kids every day. Same for drugs. So, unless I'm missing something, the only thing that kids are exposed to on the internet that isn't around regularly, are sexual predators. And those are there in the real world too. Basically, the only thing I would be worried about are the people that they might interact with online. But if you haven't explained to them that are people in the world that would like to hurt them, and that they need to be careful in who they trust, then they're not equipped to walk down to the cornerstore, let alone do anything else.
So the same basics that apply to the real world apply online. And please don't rob your children of a chance to mature in a healthy, human, responsible manner. If you're going to worry about anything, get on them about their grades, try to interest them in science, art, nature, etc.
If they want to look at pictures of naked chicks, or read about guns, drugs, whatever, don't sweat it. ( hell, the eleven year old is probably just looking up pictures of guy/girl he/she thinks is cute/smart/cool/whatever and doesn't want dad to know because he/she's embarrassed ). In my opinion, expose children to the world, let them read, talk to them, and most of all : tell and show them what you think, and then let them make up their own minds.
PC moderators can suck my White pierced, tattooed dick. If you think pride == hate, s/dick/Aryan meat mallet/g.
By foisting this expectation onto your kid that he has to be a saint, you are forcing him to lie to you. Nobody is a saint.
Yes I AM saying that only kids who are either fools or saints will be able to resist pornography when it is freely available. I'm confident your kid us neither of these.
If a kid has access to the net, they positively have access to the entire range of adult subjects. You've already provided access to these things, so you can't effectively take it away. He'll find access somewhere else. So then. If your kid is old enough to know how to use the net, you might as well start treating him like an adult.
If you haven't already prepared him morally to handle mature subjects like sex, porn, drugs, hacking, politics, torture, genocide, bestiality and explosives, well I'd say you have already missed your chance as a parent. He's been taking charge of his own education now, so all you can do is provide support.
(Clue: Authoritarianism is NOT going to work much for you anymore. It's far too late for that.)
Instead, YOU should be asking HIM what is going on with the internet these days, and what kind of unbelievable stuff he's encountered lately. Treat him consistently with adult respect, give him some time and he'll catch on and start responding as an adult.
Give him the same privacy you'd expect as an adult. Help him discover the internet, the world and himself. Get to know your kid's online persona. What is he like online? If you can share some cool things online together, maybe he'll be less likely to get into trouble.
One question I'd hand you, though: If you saw that your 15 year old was watching porn, would
-
say that (s)he should never surf again, or would you
- take it as a good opportunity to talk about sex, relationships and the porn industry?
If your answer is 1, then it makes sense that your kids are violating your rules because you really have a bunch of rules that you're just not telling them about.If your answer is 2, then you need to do some confidence building for your kids... In the meantime, however, I think that you need to generate an enforcement method... Walking away with their computer for a couple of hours (or days) just might just do the job.
Relaxing your rules because your kids are breaking the ones you have seems like a bad precedent, unless they can offer a strong argument as to why your current rules are inapporpriate. (I don't see any)
On the other hand, don't come down too hard on them. Remember: they're teenagers, and a certain ammount of rebellion is to be expected. Your job as a parent isn't to prevent rebellion (you'd be better off trying to get a good grip on Jello[tm]), but to shape the direction they go with that rebellion.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. One of these days you're gonna forget to select "Post Anonymously" and then you'll be for it!
I think that below the age of 13 kids should be monitored. The suggestion of having the computer in the familly room is a good one. Kids just aren't ready to deal with the nasty side of the internet before then.
When they hit 13 they start to get curious about sex. Before you let them have unfettered access to the internet I suggest you let them read a few good books on the subject. Kids are mostly courious. If you don't give them good sources of information they will be forced to find their own. You do NOT want that to happen.
I also suggest you teach them about online security, and privacy. Spam, viruses, worms, perverts, etc
I won't suggest it would work for everyone, but I have found that the best way to raise my kids was to trust them, and then talk to them if they did something I thought was wrong. I discovered early on that one of the things they wanted most from me was my trust. Whenever they did something I didn't approve of, it was the suggestion that their action lessened my trust of them that was the best punishment I could find. (I still grounded them from time to time though not very often.)
When I first got a PC that the kids could use (I've had computers of my own for over 20 years, starting with TRS-80s), I started with one rule, no downloads. When that didn't work, I simply refused to help my kids when downloads didn't work. Guess what happened then, they learned how to use computers.
As my kids usage increased, they were told of the evil people on the Internet and the bad sites, and I made it clear that I expected them to use good judgment and behave themselves. I trusted them to make good decisions.
Of course, I reviewed logs and history and such (kids really aren't too bright if they think you aren't checking up on them) and when I found my son going places he shouldn't be, I asked him about it and why he was going there. He told me he and a friend were using the computer, and his friend showed him the sites. I suggested that he might not want to do that anymore, since if it happened again, we would have the same conversation. It did, but not very much.
Later, when I found movies and pictures downloaded to the PC, I deleted them and then talked to my son and suggested that he think about what would happen if his mother or sister found them. He was very embarrassed, and didn't do it anymore.
That was 2 or 3 years ago. Now I'm divorced and my son is on his own. Not too long ago, I had some interesting male enhancement pills delivered to my house. After some careful detective work, I discovered my daughter had ordered them from eBay using my account, so I asked her about them. (It was a joke gift.)
No retaliation, just good, ole fashioned embarrassing questions and honest discussions.
Worked for me, but each family is different. My kids didn't seem to need many rules to know what was right and to do the right thing most of the time. Maybe parents who set good examples are the best rule of them all.
I rarely read replies, it's my opinion and if you thought about your opinion a little more, I'm OK with that.
I'm 17. Here's what I would do. I mean, I used to have a porn problem, and it ended up making me just feel guilty all the time. I wished that I had never started.
That said, here were some things, from my point of view, that would have prevented me.
Keep the door open, and face the computer to the door. Thats good. Don't put a lock on the door, make sure they keep it open. Initiate corrections for door closure.
Network your house and install a VNC server on their computers. Tell them you can see their screen, and demonstrate it for them. If you want to get better, get one that they use at schools that are harder to remove. LANSchool comes to mind.
Install driftnet on a computer you own, set it up so it saves and records all images passing through the network. You can set the limit of downloaded images to be pretty small, but its the fear factor we're after. Explain to them you see, and record all graphics that get transfered over the net.
If you have a firewall, log dns requests, explain that to them too.
With the exception of the VNC server, this setup lets them have total administrative control of their computer. They can install windows, linux, or use a mac, and you still know what domain names or pictures they access, which is enough. If they know you can, then they won't do things they're not supposed too.
Thats my $0.02
If you are really concerned Id buy a nice router/firewall combo, that you can enable keyword blocking on.
You give them unlimited access, it could be a bad thing. You restrict their access, it could be a bad thing too. Either you have your kid's trust (for the most part), or you don't. Is your kid going to be willing to talk to you about it if they enter into a situation involving sex, or drugs, or a career in the military, or whatever it is you're trying to keep them away from? That's what's important.
Oh well, just a quick note from a non-parent and non-teen. Take it for what it's worth.
If you're worried about sticky keyboards and such, do this. If male, provide condoms. If female, I don't know what would work, I don't know that anatomy personally.
seriously man you should reconsider allowing your kids to have a computer in their room. its a big mistake. take it from me. i am a pedophile. you have no idea how easy it is. i could write on book on this shit. no joke here are some kids internet porn stats: http://www.porndestroyswomen.org/index.html#5
evils of piracy, hacking,
Piracy != theft. It's not an evil. It may be illegal, but a school project could require some $200 software that you can get for free by violating copyright. Copyright violation != theft.
Hacking is not necessarily bad. Cracking (in the "1 4m 4 1337 h4x0r" sense, not the piracy sense) is bad. Hacking is all about building and defending the systems. Cracking is all about breaking into them. Hacking is a good skill to have. I once traced an eBay scammer down to a Romanian cell (the cell company didn't do anything, though...) A cracker would throw sploits on boxes then throw the eBay scams through.
Normal Porn ..
..
not a big deal,
I'd worry about stuff like pictures of death.
seriously
When I was a kid, my parents were more concerned with my awareness of the fact that internet information can be misleading and incorrect.
g 2.com/r g.net/
I briefly went through a stage where the sudden availability of contraban information was a novelty, and I eagerly accumulated a stockpile of useless drivel from the 'anarchists cookbook' and similar web publications, but when I realized that my parents really didnt care, I lost interest.
The web can be extremely useful and informative, and the nature of the content that teenagers view is very much an extension of their level of maturity. My parents didnt establish any rules, and as long as my school work got done, the internet connection was mine to do with as I pleased as long as I wasnt doing anything illegal.
What finallly caused me to forsake the infantile obsession with contraban material was the discovery of content really worth exploring. When I discovered project gutenberg, I chose to spend my time reading classics online rather than doing something silly and unproductive.
The advice I have to give is this: parents who want their children to browse the web responsibly should help their children find good web sites with meaningful content that can help them expand their interests. As soon as something interesting and productive becomes available, most people lose interest in something that is purportedly 'taboo'.
Additionally, if you stress that certain content is associated with social stigma, it is almost definitely going to arouse curiousity. Parents who want to discourage their children from viewing pornographic content should explain to their children the nature of real, meaningful, intrapersonal relationships, and let them see for themselves that pornographic content is a perversion, and an assanine waste of time.
Parents who want to provide their children with good internet resources that will help kids expand intellect and interests include:
http://ibiblio.org/
http://lii.org/
http://h2
http://www.everypoet.com/
http://gutenbe
Therefore, I reciprocated the same level of respect back onto them.
I am given complete privacy with my own computers as I have demonstrated a level of maturity required to be able to handle such a responsibility.
I look at porn. So what?
I know parents who treat their kids like dirt and deny them every freedom, as if they (the parents) were Hitler. Their kids hate their parent's guts and look forward to going onto college to get the hell away from their homes.
I know one kid who is so oppressed that he contemplated finding ways to kill or at least seriously harm his parents. We talked him out of it to a point where he is going to just frame his mom for some crime (well, she deserves it) when he goes to college (on scholarships, just to show the independence he has from his parents).
Die Americans! Die.
I'm a bit more on the tech side, and my gf, who lives w/ me, isn't. She knows how to ssh about and look at files, but that's about it.
Anyway, we host a mail server for ourselves. To show her I trust her and she shoudl trust me, I've given her root on the mail server. I explained to her completely how the mail system works and if she ever so wants to, look, but don't edit. Otherwise, things could break in ugly ways.
Perhaps some funky thing like, having URLs, IMs and tcp connections logged to another comptuer that you (parents) can write to, but anyone can view. Setup view accounts and keep tabs on "last" to at least know who's been on the machine. It probably would be a concern that your children shouldn't see what the others are doing, unless it's harmless type stuff, but that's hard to determine on-the-fly. And keep the logs of what's seen older than a day, so you can filter your own naughtier bits.
It's not fool proof. It's not intended to be. Worse comes to worse, the kid can use another machine, outside the home, and do whatever he wants. The point of the exercise is to show trust. When they are "of age", explain that certain things are "ok" to look at, and you won't be surprised or pissed, but to not allow others to know, or else access will be taken away.
Once all your kids are of age and show responsibility, take the device away.
Simple as that. I guess the goal, all-in-all, is to teach responsibility for their own actions and mutual respect. Sorta like lending your kid the car. First you make sure they can drive, then some day, they can go on their own, eh?
-
ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
While I do understand that you feel compelled to restrict your childrens access to information , I think it is dam stupid . ;-) .I think I also locked my self in the bathroom for a couple of hours when the first told me.I also contemplated do a lot of stuff that should not be mentioned in public forums. To be honest I was obsessed with computers (school wasnt working so well for me , and the computer was my escape).
1)If you are worried about pornography ; dont be . Pornography is out there. If they really want porn they dont have to realy on the internet to get it . Although it can be an excellent money saver
2)Open door policy? A lot of what people do on the internet can be compared to mail , and telephone of past . Unless you think all parents should read there childrens mail and tap there phones (Note : May be illegal to do that) then let them have some privacy
) Children are people as well . You have no right to limmit there access to information.
)Any rules are stupid. At one point in my child hood (not to long ago) my parents attempted to restrict what I did on the computer and when I could . This simply resulted in me putting a BIOS password on the machine (pre-emptively) and sneeking around the rules . It also resulted in anything they wanted to do with/ask me meeting with stiff resistance. E.g. "How was school?" , "I'm not telling you"
In response to your meta-question . Yes and no . You seem like a fairly up tight over protective sort of person ; as sutch if I were your child there is no way in hell I'm telling you WTF I was doing on the computer .
Isn't this something that Slashdot should not be attempting to answer? How many of the slashdot readers can say that they are successfully raising a child? How many can say to this parent what they did correctly?
Personally, I wouldn't consult slashdot for anything family related. I think it's just plain silly to ask a bunch of nerds and geeks like me about how to raise your kid. It's like asking your kids what you should do with their computer.
This is not an appropriate ask slashdot topic.
in girum imus nocte et consumimur igni
The life of a yound adult is not as easy as parents think. There are alot of pressures at school to fit in, and also pressures at home. I believe that this time in their lives should be spent with the family, and not in front of a web browser. There are so many things that they can do to get themselves into trouble. I just think that the internet requires some additional maturity and more responsibility.
I am not (actively) restricted on the computer. It is, more or less, in public view. I've looked at things I'm not supposed to. Many times. it has not, at all, changed my character, or made me a bad person. I am not a degenerate. I get good grades. I am successful at life. I am a very strong-willed, independant person. So how is not being restricted on the Internet so bad? I thank my parents for giving me this independence/privacy.
I had computers in my kids rooms with much the same rules you had. I'd like to think of my 12 year old boy and girl as mature and well adjusted. My wife had been nagging at me about monitoring what they were doing. I had a router set up that monitored their web activity, nothing too awful. And then there was Instant Messaging. After a bit of a change in behavior, which I had chalked up to normal adolescence, I finally broke down and installed snopping software on their computers. I loaded it on when I got home and we were going to sit them down at dinner the next day and tell them we were monitoring their Internet usage. What I saw on the Instant Messaging chats was so far over the top I pulled the computers out of their rooms. Doing it all over again, I would put computers in their rooms and tell them right off the bat they are going to have all of their usage monitored (do not settle for web proxying or router logs - capture their IM, chat room and message board posts). Keep your kids on a leash of reasonable length and they'll stay out of trouble. The bummer is, your kids don't have to "do anything" to get involved in an entirely inapropriate chat session with some fucked-up pervert. What I learned from this? Kids are our responsibility. We have a moral obligation to protect them and get them to adulthood in one piece; they have no constitutional right to do what they want.
I have a couple simple suggestions....
Put the computers in the living room. Don't put them in their bed rooms or some other place where they can be reasonably assured that they can use the computer in private (yes, even with the door open.)
One other suggestion would be to install software that monitors their computer access and logs the websites that they visit etc. There are plenty of these out there both for private and commerical use.
Remember, while they are living in your home and are under the age of 18, the computers are not your kids computers but yours. (And even afterwards unless you choose to give them to them.) Thus you have every right to monitor the computers they use. If they do not like that, nobody is forcing them to use the computers you provide. And with the computers being installed in the living room, your kids will be much more likely to view only things that are appropriate for the entire family.
A encyclopidia salesman came to our house. He convinced my wife and I that his books would be a great investment for our kids. The only kicker was that I had to take a stack of playboys along with the deal. I said that I didn't want the playboy magazines but he said that I had no choice but to take them. He reminded me that I could talk to my kids about them and I should trust them not to look at them. Besides they are going to look at them somewhere else anyway AND it may even be good for them!
My question is - do I let my kids keep them in their rooms?
I have been using DansGuardian for years, I don't worry about anything.
My FOUR YEAR OLD (well, four in February) has had his own computer with Internet access for close to a year now. Granted, I've locked it down very tightly to the point where he can't get to anything other than the sites or programs we OK.
I'll tell you what: giving him his own computer has been one of the BEST decisions we ever made. He is so far ahead of the other kids in his pre-school it's not even funny, and we know for a fact that the games he plays has a great deal to do with it (because we've spied on him via VNC playing games and figuring things out and developing skills that he really shouldn't be yet). The Internet access has also been a great thing because he's really getting exposure to thing he just couldn't otherwise. He was doing simple math six months ago for God's sake! He's known his entire alphabet for nearly a year, his vocabulary has been commented on by his teacher numerous times as being incredibly far ahead of the other kids. Most importantly to me, his ability to reason things out and solve problems is fantastic. I know adults that can't think something through as well as he can.
To say giving any child their own computer is a mistake is just stupid. To say being an irresponsible parent and just giving it to them without any guidance or supervision absolutey is though.
Of course, that applies to giving them just about anything. My mother gave me a giant air-blowing gun toy when I was little, and then didn't pay any attention to what I did with it. I absolutely tortured the family cat with that thing for weeks before my dad saw me once and took it away. I shouldn't have been doing it, but they certainly should have pais attention and stopped me long before they did.
I say this with COMPLETE seriousness... my child is 100 times more computer-literate than a great many of the people I work with every day. In this day and age, is that a mistake? F**k no.
If a pion (n-) collides with a proton in the woods & noone is there to hear it, does lamdba decay into the source pa
Does it make a difference in my behavior? Verily it does, but not in the way you would expect.
The idea behind regulations that increase the ease with which you can see what your kids are doing, is to prevent them from doing something stupid behind your back. But that doesn't work, and here's why: People hate being distrusted. They hate the feeling that somebody thinks they must be watched. They'll rebel against it. For one thing, they probably think that they're smarter than you think they are. Whether they are or not depends of course on the individual person in question.
In any case, creating regulations of transparency is bound to make people secretive and do things they probably wouldn't do if they were allowed to.
Here's a better way to achieve the openness and safety that you want: teach your kids how to be smart. Start as early as you can. Start today. What you *don't* want to do, parents of teenagers, is suddenly start a throat-shoving campaine of whatever new thing you've decided to teach them. But try to give them an idea of what is safe and what isn't.
You can trust your kids. They know, and you can help them to know, where sleeze is. Sleeze is easy to identify; Drive your six year old through the local porno district. You child doesn't need to be told it's a bad place to be.
What you do with transparency regulations is declare that your household is not going to be an open place where everybody can trust one another.
A better solution to your problem is to encourage your kids to tell you what's going on, to be open, to be your friend, rather than treating them like monkeys that have to be watched. Now, the best way to encourage somebody isn't the way that I had experience with with my parents, that is, yelling and ranting about it. The best way is to treat your kids like you want to be treated. Be their friends. Be open with them. Give them the benefit of the doubt. In doing this, you'll truly create a mutually open relationship with them.
I know you're very worried about the harm that could come to your kids, with a silent telephone to nign anyone. But please remember, these sorts of things are blown WAY out of proportion by the media. When I read stories about kids getting into deep shit on the net, one thing always seems to be evident: *They were asking for it*. Teach you kids not to ask for it. You'll have far better luck than just preventing them from asking.
Thanks.
Yes! Protect them from virtual dangers (those scary pixels!) by beating them!
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
screw those Psychology and Pholosophy freaks.
/.
it think more has been done and more points discussed in these few hours than all those quacks have "accomplished" in the last 50 years.
thank God for
grey wolf
LET FORTRAN DIE!
Don't listen to your parents, you're going to experience porn sooner or later and you can easily bypass everything.
All I can suggest is that you don't be too overly restrictive. Even the first rule is sort of bogus. Everybody needs their time alone, even kids. Sometimes it's nice to shut the door on the rest of the world and be alone for a while.
Will it lead to porn viewing? Yeah, it will. Is it really a problem? Not really. The best thing you can do for that is make it uninteresting. Porn is porn. It's not the real deal, it's people acting out a scene, sometimes a very weird scene.
Realize that kids break rules and that especially in the case of the 15 year old the best you can do is feed him or her information and let him make his own decisions.
I'd shy away from any monitoring software. It will only give your kids the impression that you don't trust them. Blocking software is even worse. However, for the 11 and 12 year olds, there is the problem that they could stumble upon some very bad material completely on accident.
However, I think even at that age they can understand that there are weirdos in the world and being online doesn't change that. Talk to your kids about this. The same advice above about pornography being a form of acting applies here although in a different way. I also suggest you install the Google Toolbar with pop-up blocking enabled because at least then they can go back and/or close the window if they do stumble upon one of those annoying porn sites that you can't get out of.
If blocking software actually worked 100% of the time it might be ideal. Unfortunately, it can never work 100% of the time, so it's better to get it out of the way and realize that stumbling on a porn site can and does happen though not so much anymore with better search engines.
Let me leave you with this: If you feel your kids are equipped to make the right decisions on their own, then you're doing your job as a parent. The converse of that is that if you feel the need to install logging software because you can't trust your children not to spend all their time looking at porn then somewhere along the line you really fucked up as a parent. Fortunately, it sounds like you are part of the former group and are just looking for confirmation that you're doing the right thing.
My computer has always been in my room, since age 6 (I'm 17)... way back when it was a Columbia Data Products 8086. I got the internet around 9 or 10 or so.
/extremely/ upset. When I am not in my room, my Win2K session is locked.
My parents pretty much left me alone. Rules are stupid. Kids will get around them. I've gotten in trouble with the school before for disabling FoolProof (it turns off right-clicking on applications on the taskbar! it's annoying!) and their monitoring software.
GIve them their freedom, don't watch them. They'll figure out if you are, and be
Unrestricted acess to information and trust is the best gift you can do for your children. You must realize that your kids will make as many mistakes as you did, but don't be so egotistical to think that you were a perfect teen. Trust your children and help them deal with the consequences when they make mistakes. If you are afraid of them doing something potentially dangerous, like drinking / drugs or sex, make sure they are aware of all of the risks and consequences.
I've had internet access since age 15 or so, and BBS access since age 11. In any case, my parents were not particularly computer literate, and they never had any say in what I did with the computer. They also had a similar approach to real-life.
Now here's the thing: Teenagers are by nature lazy, shiftless, and hedonistic. I can bet your kids, no matter what you do, will spend more time playing videogames, looking for naked chicks, and doing whatever else occurs to them than they will doing homework, etc...
That being said, I think you should let them get it out of their system, respect their privacy, and let them know that you're there to be a non-judgemental answerer of questions and giver of _requested_ advice. For the most part unless your kids are immensely stupid, they'll be able to take care of themselves, or know when to ask an adult for help/advice/etc...
---
Play Six Pack Man. I
As a consequence of your poor grammar and spelling you deserve a severe and prolonged beating on your hindquarters, son.
Bend over and stop whimpering. This will hurt me more than it will hurt you.
Believe me.
All censorship is bad. Encourage your kids to experience EVERYTHING the Internet has to offer and make their own judgements about what they like/dislike.
Kids will be kids... That said, they want to explore that which they hear about or discover on their own.
And they should be encouraged to do so. However, you do need to discuss certain things with your children - tell them that the same rules which apply off-line in the real world basically apply in the online world as well...
Don't talk to strangers... Or in the odd case that you do, at least don't give them any personal info about yourself (name, address, phone #, etc).
Tell them that they can ASK YOU ANYTHING about what they encounter on the net. No matter what. Drugs, sex, health information - whatever. Encourage an open environment and explain it to your kids. Not encouraging them to ask totally blocks out your point of view - they may or may not agree with you about it, but hey - you give them something to think about anyway. And who would you rather explain 3-way sex to them? Some "friend" of theirs, or you?
It's not going to be easy, but hey - look at it as prep. for when they get to DrIvE!!!!
And get rid of that bullshit with the door open, no screen closing, no lying stuff... It's just not gonna work...
You wouldn't think that if you knew all that Sharon was responsible for. ...ALL of it.
or at least let them think you will be doing so.
.
My daughter has had a pc in her room since she was 10 years old. Prior to her getting one in her room she would just have to wait her turn at one of the other pc's on our network. This led to too many conflicts with other users in the house so we decided to add a pc to the network for her and the only place we really had room to put it was in her room. She also wanted a TV in her room but there I drew a line - TV is just plain evil.
As part of that arrangement we set out a few simple rules - never tell people you don't already know your real name or exactly where you live or exactly which school you go to. We also talked about the dangers of strangers and wackos on the net (and stressed that they are not really any different than wackos in "real life")and what to do if she found herself in a situation where the conversation made her uncomfortable, etc. We also forbid her from entering chat rooms without our permission.
Her main use apart from hitting Sailor Moon websites was chatting with school friends via AIM. One of the rules for her AIM use was that whatever screen names she created she had to add my screen name to her buddy list so I could tell when she was on AIM. This has also come in handy when I need to call her down for dinner and she has her stereo cranked up and wouldn't be able to hear me yelling for her
I also let her know that I had installed software on all our pc's and not just hers that would allow me to view everything she may be doing. I also told her that while I would not be monitoring everything she does on a daily basis - who has that much free time - but I will on occasion be reading thru the logs to see if any of the basic rules had been broken.
My daughter is now 13 and over the course of the past three years a couple of the rules have been broken a couple of times and each time we discussed it and dealt with it appropriately. I have also on a few occasions blocked her pc from the net at our network router for other non-pc related disciplinary matters (when I was a kid being grounded meant no TV - now it means no net access).
We also make a point of discussing with her the occasional news stories that involve child predators on the net so she can be reminded that this is a real problem and not just something her parents make up just to scare her. We also try to stress that there is not a boogeyman around every corner and to just be aware if people start trying to ask or tell her certain things to let us know.
There are a lot of software tools available that make monitoring this activity very easy. Simple keystroke loggers can be found for free or you can install apps that cost a hundred bucks or more.
The only drawback to keystroke loggers is that they only record her side of the conversation/activity. I have found, however, that
is reall enough to let me know the tenor of a conversation.
Originally I installed a commercial app on her pc that would record both sides of IM messages and email and web activities, and also take periodic screenshots of what is going on. That all seemed very useful at first but again, I think that a simple free keystroke logger is really sufficient for the ability to see the general thrust of a conversation.
I think the most important thing we do is to also frequently ask her what she is doing and who she is talking to and what they are talking about and to share with us any cool websites she finds. We don't do this in any kind of "Spanish Inquisition" mode (nobody expects the Spanish Inquistion...)but more of a just generally curious mode so she doesn't feel spied upon - the same as we have always done when asking what she and her "real world" friends are up to/doing.
The only negative thing in this whole experience to date is that she is spending (IMHO) too much time on AIM. On the other hand she doesn't yak on the phone ever and she watches very little TV (X-Play on TechTV is about all she watches on a daily basis when she gets home from school) so I can't complain too much.
So far I don't regret allowing her to have a pc in her room and I don't think any parent that is otherwise normally engaged with their children should be too concerned about a pc in a kids room.
Don't make assumptions - it makes an ass out of you, and umption. The parent poster didn't say anything about beating children. I think it's safe to say that punishment is often a useful form of guidance; in this case, most likely in the form of the removal of privileges.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Now that I have full access and control over my own computer, they trust me to control myself, and I do for the most part. I very rarely look at things I ought not to be looking at. So that would be my advice - keep an eye on them for a while, and teach them why it is wrong, but trust them untill you have good reason not to, WITH OUT trampling their privacy.
Well maybe I shouldn't be answering this question... I'm an 18 year old male geek in MN, and my story may be of some encouragment. My parents gave me my first computer for my birthday when I was in 4th grade. It had no internet access then (I hardly knew what that was) but I thought it was really cool. It has always been in my room (actually I share a room w/ my younger brother). Not long after that we setup a small ethernet network (back then dad would even occasionally join us in 3 player Warcraft II LAN games :) those were the days...) , and just a few years ago, we got DSL along w/ a linux router for our house.
I don't ever remember my parents really giving me any rules for my computer.
(though I've had my mom say a few times "no email until you've done ________________") and I'm happy to say there really haven't been any problems, my two brothers have similar accounts. I dunno if that's an exception, if so, praise God, that's cool, but really all my parents ever had to say to me was "we trust you" and that was enough to keep me in line. I think if they would've made me a list of rules for me I would've wanted to break them, just because I don't like having people tell me my limits--I don't mind having restrictions I just don't like it when people think they need to tell me them. Neither our ISP or our own computers do content filtering, though I have considered loading porn filters on my own computer just to keep myself out of trouble (I hope to be married someday and I want my wife to be proud of me), but thankfully it hasn't been necessary.
I guess I like being trusted and want to make my parents happy since they probably know what's best for me anyways.
Though I'm not a parent, I would venture to guess that the struggling over rules/ownership of a computer w/ internet access is really a symptom and not a problem. Teenagers like to be respected, and will think if you let them. Don't tell them what to do so much as make them think about what they are doing and set a good example for them in your own life. I hope I've given you at least something to think about, I don't claim to have experience or anything like that, I'm just telling you how things have worked out for me.
Sigs pose an operational security risk and help the baddies aggregate data. I guess commenting does too, oops.
The guy made a statement about his control of the home network. You responded by personally attacking him, basically calling him a tight-assed bastard... shame on you. He makes a VERY important point... his hardware, his electricity, his rules; I happen to think he's got every right to do this.
Here's a point you're missing; he's responsible for that network.
That's right... his house, his hardware, his electricity, HIS RESPONSIBILITY, including legally. The last thing I want is the RIAA/MPAA/FBI coming to my door because I gave my teen a little too much freedom on his computer. How many thousands did that little girl's mother have to pay because she was downloading music? I know you know the story I'm talking about, discussed ad nauseum here on Slashdot.
I have no problem letting my kids learn. I let them fall, skin their knees (my wife has a little trouble with this), even occasionally burn themselves, after all, the two best teachers are pain and loss of money. What I will not do is sit back while they fill their minds with stuff they may or may not be ready to handle, or while they get chatted up by some pedophile. And don't even give me that "you're just a paranoid old man" crap... Until you've done the number of sexual assault exams I have (including pediatric), you can sit down and be quiet.
My kids have met "big brother," and he is me. I'm not overprotective, just watchful. If I see them access something inappropriate, I may not say anything; I may just watch to see what they do. They best measure of your personal ethos and integrity is what you do when you think nobody is watching.
Once your kids have proven themselves, consider turning them loose... but trust is EARNED, folks.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
Privacy would be your concern. I know if my parents violated my privacy I would be pissed. I didnt mind the occational.. dont look at porn.. but in all reality.. google even with its safe guard.. can offer more porn images than you can possibly imagine.. I think the best you can do is sit down.. lay down the goods and the bads.. keep an open mind and let them do what they wish. If you one day run across something questionable.. then evaluate.. not overreact.. parents.. remember you may have not been on the internet when you were young but we all had some sort of trouble or facination at that age.
So if your children wants to watch porn, they will make friends with kids with more lenient parents, or learn to evade your logging.
When it comes to pornography, (which is rampant on the Internet) no child should be "trusted." Pornography is addictive, as much so as many drugs. Even many adults can't be "trusted" with it. I am the CIO of a private law school. I know the effects of pornography. I do not use the Internet when I am the only one home.
I have ten children. Eight of them are still at home. We have two fast Dells, and a cable modem. Both computers are in as public as place as possible in our home. They are kept in high-traffic areas. Additionally, all homework must be finished before bedtime. The computers have power-on password. If the children have done their homework and practiced their musical instruments, then they can use the computer for "fun," including networked arcade games and IM.
To whomever posted the original message: Take the computers out of the bedrooms. You'll be doing them a great favor. Trust me, I know.
Finally, and this is sort of a meta-question from an exasperated dad, does everybody lie about what they're doing on the Internet?
:)
Yes, yes we do
honest trust relationship with your kids. I assume you were using the Internet with them prior to now right?
/. rambles about kids mode on...)
If so, you should have already talked about what the Internet is and isnt. If this foundation is weak, work to strengthen it in their space for a bit before fully letting go.
Above all:
They need to know they can come to you with *anything* they might find on the net. Either you are going to let them use the net, or not....
(rare
My own kids are starting this period as well. We have discussed the Net and what one can find. Basically, I did not hold anything back during the education stage. I worked my best to teach them how I use the net. (this means both good and bad things) They might as well know what spyware is, why giving bogus names in web forms is ok, how to recognize and consider the nature and source of information they find, along with any number of other things I know as an experienced net user.
In the beginning, I put one machine in the living room, shared and in the open. At first, I set the machine up with a password logon for internet, and another unprotected one for general computer use. As we gained trust, I enabled the Internet full time for them one at a time as they reached a point where I felt I could communicate with them and they could handle what they see.
This worked well in that they quickly get used to using the net with others around. It gets social and loses its mysterious aura quickly.
I learned a lot during the first couple years. They understood from the beginning that you are who you say you are on the Internet. We played with chatting and the web and e-mail games and other things.
Chat is one area I do keep a close watch on with the younger kids. Basically, they cannot do it alone. My oldest can watch them, or I will. It is interesting to watch them role play in chat areas. This was something I did not have much of a chance to do as a kid. Since I do not use the Internet for this much, save the occasional IRC, doing it with them made the most sense.
The oldest one can use the net after hours and in her room now if she wants to.
It is easiest to compare this experience to teaching them how to drive. Not everybody follows the rules and there are bad things just past the driveway. Same for the net. You simply must tell them how it is in order to have any real chance at doing some good.
I did do one thing however that helped at an earlier stage. I told them the computer would remember what was done and that I would get the information if I needed to. The reality is close to that anyway, and the minor ways this small manupulation differs from the truth, (unless one decides to log everything) does not matter in the long run. I regretted it initially, but later realized that idea set the stage for honesty early on in a way that would have been harder otherwise. The one time I did go digging I regretted. What I found was benign, but I realized I could not broach the subject without letting my kid know I did not trust them enough to ask. Big mistake.
So, my kids understand I am good at computers and the net. They also know I am not going to be big brother if they are honest with me. They also know they can count on my help in the future if they need it. They also understand, for many folks, the net is new.
My decision to bring it into the family is a gift to them many of their friends do not have. The older ones are now beginning to see the differences between their net use and general knowledge and that of many of their friends.
So far, things have gone well. They tell me things --enough things that I can be sure things are going ok, though I do wish the net was a nicer place overall for kids. The spyware scum really know how to work the younger folks. "I'll trade you this simple game, if you just click yes..." (The main room computer runs win2k. Other computers run Linux or IRIX --t
Blogging because I can...
Yep, I've still got it on a floppy somewhere. When I first got internet access around '91 we had to connect to our university's servers with ProComm or some other modem software and then rlogin or telnet into our shell account. I had MS Windows on my 386 SX33 for 6 months before I ever decided to check it out. Then, here comes Trumpet and the Mosaic browser. What I disliked most about Trumpet was having to mod my init string for each new modem or, IIRC, when I switched ISP's (which I did very often in the early 90's). Did anyone ever try to use their firewall?
Do you have confidence that your children are sensible, intelligent children, or should I say, confidence in your ability to raise them as such?
If yes, you don't need to worry about anything. They will read about drugs. They will encounter religious fanatics. They will watch porn. Warez software. Download music. They will potentially come across psychopaths who want to harm them.
They'll also meet friends. Learn many things. Experience new ideas and alternative points of view.
All of these are things in the normal world. If you do your job right your children will be pretty comfortable coming to you for anything they don't understand or, in their judgement, needs adult guidance.
Of course they'll do things that piss you off. They'll scan their genetilia and send it to friends. Maybe they'll even post mom and dad's sex tapes to usenet. Everyone makes mistakes. Make sure you're there to tell them, that when they make these mistakes, that it's not cool to post mommy's sex tapes without permission.
They will survive and develop into normal functional people without your constant intervention. Don't you have better things to do anyway?
If you have instilled a sense of decency into your children porn and child stalkers are the least of your worries.
What should be taken as a serious threat is how you kids see the computer. My step daughter and I had a serious disagreement about what she could and could not do with HER computer on MY network. She felt she could download any thing ( Kazaa, Napster etc...) her little heart desired. She did not care about the consequences to MY other computers. It ended up that "her" computer was removed from the network until I could get software that would prevent her computer from being exploited by the idiots on the internet, or from inadvertantly damaging my computers.
There are several things that can be done to permit teens from doing harm to their computer, and other computers on a network. The first is to install a GOOD firewall, one that does not assume everyone is running as an administrator.
The next step is to reduce the level of priveledges to your teens log in name. Giving them a "Guest" level will prevent a lot of mischief from occuring. For example, adding or changing what programs can access the internet cannot be done except as an administrator. This prevents the RIAA from sueing you because your daughter's KAZAA program is serving up Kid Rock or EMINEM to the world.
I cannot stress enough the importance of obtaining a good anti-virus program. Get one that scans incoming e-mail.
Next is to get a program that protects your machines against spyware. I have found that SpywareBlaster, a freeware program by Wilder Security, is pretty good at preventing spyware from being loaded. A program like Ad-Aware is still needed to remove spyware if a computer gets infected.
You also need a program to "clean" the internet cache, history and cookies. Do NOT EVER REVEAL this software even exists. Cleaning is just a pretense. Use the software to "check up" on your teens surfing activities. If they are going to inappropriate sites, just use the firewall to block those sites. If you ever feel the urge to talk to your kids about these sites..DONT. Teens do not like the idea of their parents checking up on them. Just let them think the site disappeared off the net.
The final piece of the puzzle is obtaining software that will allow you to log onto their system remotely. This will allow you opportunity to update the antivirus, the antispyware, the firewall settings, etc without having to physically be on your teens system. Again, it is best if your teen does not know this software exists. Resist the urge to use this software to py on your teen. This software is just to make your job as administrator easier.
The final item to be done is to edit the desktop icons and menu selections for your teens account. Make sure that your teen has not inadvertently been given access to any of the software described above. They do not need to be able to tinker with any settings.
Once these steps have been completed the computer is fairly safe from the destructive elements of the internet, provided you keep up with the software updates.
SELECT * FROM User WHERE Clue > 0
0 rows returned
...Because not all adolescents are the same. I just turned 15 last month, and recently bought a modem for the computer I built for my room. I use it daily, and my parents don't put any restrictions on me whatsoever. A good majority of my peers are not as immpressionable as their age group may have once been. I think the internet makes teens more mature, because it provides access to millions of different viewpoints. Either then teen in question forms his own ideals by comparing and contrasting, or is uninterested (And believe me, apathy is rampant in my school). I've found that other kids my age are more interested in chatting on endlessly with their friends, and are usually smart enough to avoid potential internet stalkers (Or whatever you'd like to call them). A teen of today's generation might not be completely aware of malicious programs or business scams, but they are most likely going to recognize the threat of an ill-mannered (to put it lightly) stranger, since they've been introduced to that subject through other mediums (ie television, books, magazines, school, etc).
.jpg files on your teen's hard drive.
Judging from my own and some of my friends' experiences, I would venture to guess that most teens above the age of 14 are able to safely manage the internet in most respects. I'm sure there are those who aren't mature enough yet, but shouldn't a responsible parent be able to recognize this and take the proper actions? Just use common sense. It should be pretty obvious if your kid is the type to pick up whatever garbage he or she reads on the internet (or sees on TV) as the truth. And as far as that type of kid goes, I've never met one.
And on the subject of pornography, everyone discovers it eventually...If the internet wasn't around, you'd be finding hard copies of porno mags under your teen's bed instead of hidden
The living dead, the dying living, they're the same thing. Cut from the same cloth.
Just get your kids a something awful forums account, and browse the forums with them. They'll see the very best and worst the internet has to offer, under your supervision. Then when they scream at night, you'll know you've done a good job.
I have two internet-enabled computers in my room. (Red Hat Linux 9 and Mac OS 9.1) My mother doesn't care because she knows I don't look at porn and whatnot... I'm a geek and spend all of my time programming or just listening to music anyway. Now, when it comes to my girlfriend and I being alone in my room, that's a different story. I swear my mom thinks I'm some kind of manwhore or something.
You read slashdot and you are worried about your kids' browsing habits?
====
Crudely Drawn Games
Start here.
This sig no verb.
I hope that people still consider softwrae piracy to be wrong. If a school project requires a piece of software (that is not provided by the school) then I'd hope my kids would come to me with that problem so I could chew out thier teachers. Just because it's not theft doesn't make it alright to do.
I'm 15 (a sophomore). I've got 7 machines in my room - 2 servers (my site and 2 friends), 2 desktops, a laptop, and two random/spare boxes. I've had unrestricted broadband since sixth grade (12 yrs old), and net access since about 3rd or 4th grade (~ 9-10 yrs old). My situation is pretty much the opposite of what you're describing - I'm the kid, controlling the net access for everyone else.
However, my parents have said that they trust me, and I don't abuse that. Trust me - people don't like draconian rules. If your kids are smart they'll know how to stay out of trouble, and you won't need filtering. You just have to trust that they will know what's best.
I would say don't worry about it. I got my first computer at 12 and hooked up to the net shortly afterward (I'm still in my late teens by the way).
Honestly though, sure I looked at porn and spent too much time in chat rooms and stuff. But really, they are in their teens and they are going to do this no matter what you do to stop them... and if you don't believe that, you are being more than a little naive.
My recommendation is keep the rule about the door thing, give them a curfew for when they have to turn it off, and keep an administrator account on each of the computers so if you have worries, log in and find out what they have been doing.
Parenting hasn't changed too much since the stone age. Society goes from extreme levels of promescuity to extreme levels of apprehensiveness. The Greeks had orgys and vommitoriums for teens as young as 12 years old -- younger even.
Let's face it, if you're trying to control your teen's sexual behaviour, you might as well try to stop a broken dam with your bare hands.
Also, you might damage their sexual capacity for the future. Many adults today have been ruined by their parents, and the cycle usually continues.
It's abusive to control people.
I suggest letting them figure it out for themselves and if they want help they should ask you. Plus, it's more rewarding as a parent to have an open parenting policy with your kids. Let them explore everything they can in this world, and have you to trust while they do. If they do something wrong, just let them know what'll happen. Confuscious said, "When anger rises, think of the consequences." That same thing can be applied to parenting, and fear. What are the consequences to fear of bad people on the internet? What are consequences to fear of bad websites on the internet? What are the consequences of randomly meeting people online? Or in person?
Develop a framework for behaviour with your teen that they are satisfied with, that they feel they can own. If they don't feel they own the rules, they will not follow them.
"These are my rules."
Be careful but not paranoid.
Paranoia will make your kid seal you out of their life.
This is probably not going to go over well with many, but... I've come to the conclusion that the internet creates a different, and more serious type of problem for parents than previous systems. Here's why. Imagine a parent worried about their child viewing horror movies at the local theatre. He or she probably has a fairly clear idea what's in them, and why they might be a problem. Or the parent wants to keep the kid from looking at Playboy. Same situation in effect. Of course, there have always been those cases where the parent is somewhat caught by surprise - "This Cronenburg guy, he's worse than Friday the 13th!" - "Hey Hustler is a lot more misogynistic than good ole' Playboy!" - "I thought they were making too much fuss about Elvis wiggling, but this Bowie guy, maybe they were right!". Still, such surprises are limited in scale. The problem I see is there's no shallow end of the pool with the internet. The very first porn the kid sees could be tubgirl, or something involving a Clydesdale, 12 pounds of latex, and a duct-taped ferret, before they ever see more normal images. The first political site they run across could be one of the most virulent hate sites around. They can find things they are actually curious about, or things they themselves didn't want to know the first thing about. (And the first time they ask if their development is normal for their age, your in-box gets 500 extra "Add 3 inches" spams)
Who is John Cabal?
when i was 16 my parents where computer illarate. i had to get a job and buy my own pc so i never had that problem.
That's my experience as a parent and a former child anyway. I think that the key is to be aware of what's going on in your kids life, and to try not to deal with problems in an adversarial manner. Awareness and net access in this case should mean keeping logs of what's being done within your network, and reading them, as you are the adult legally responsible for what people do in that space.
"...we should just trust our president in every decision that he makes and we should just support that." B.Spears 2003
I can't wait for my son to get old enough to try his first hack attempt on the home network. He'll probably think he's got m4d 5k1llz, but I was phreaking and wardialing decades before he ever touched a keyboard.
Might be an interesting contest... I'm kind of tickled by the thought... bring it on.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
Of course, if unrestricted access to the 'net is not a threat to your mindset then this is all a non-issue. Just some of us believe what we learned from programming applies to people, too: Garbage In, Garbage Out.
Make computer access a family affair (no, not "pr0n night at the Smiths"; you know what I mean). Foster a healthy approach to the 'net and encourage a productive use of its resources. Don't worry: they'll still get their fill of garbage, just it won't be when so ever they will.
Lastly, putting the computers in the family room may be the only way to get them out of their rooms! :)
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
I've had unrestricted internet access since age 5. And to think my mother was proud of http://features.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/07/ 15/0327239&mode=thread&tid=153 ... If your not going to give your kids any privacy what are they to expect of the world they are to grow up in?
mix_master_mike
vafrous
Way up there, someone stated "my network, my rules" or whatever. He's right. But it all depends on what is happening on your network. My sons will both have their own machine at some point. I personally don't care about the porn, the emails, the IMs or any of that stuff until it threatens the welfare of my child. Porn, in and of itself is not necessarily good or bad. What I have always done is to make sure my kids know I am watching them. I don't prevent them from acting, I'm just there to pick them up when they hurt themselves. But I cannot ignore my parental responsibilities to keep them safe. I *will* monitor, and my kids will *know* that. But my only concern with porn is that they look at the good, quality stuff.
My monitoring is solely for the purpose of watching for predators, and making sure my kids don't do anything illegal. Thats it. Other than that, I want them both to understand that no topic is taboo to me. They already know that.
Letting them explore the world is absolutely necessary. Letting them run off and get killed by someone they met in a chatroom is not.
You should tell them: I monitor all network activity. Act as if you realize that is true and you'll be OK.
IF nothing else, this will teach your child valuable skills in computer security & evasion, so they will be able to support you in your old age either as a computer security professional, or by hacking your 401k so it will provide a decent retirement.
Concerned about your kid accessing porn? Um, maybe you'll actually have to have conversations with your kid about developing a healthy attitude towards sex.
Concerned about your kid being preyed upon? Um, maybe you'll have to teach your kid that it can be a dangerous world and it's wise to be careful.
Want to know what they're up to when they're online? Well maybe you'll have to follow what's going on in your kid's life as closely as you follow your favorite (distro/tv show/football team/whatever).
And yes, I am a parent.
As a parent who will inevitably have to deal with this in the next few years, I think the most important part of what you instill in your kids is a sense of trust. Yes, your child(ren) will abuse your trust from time to time and yes, they will test their boundaries, but if they weren't doing these thing they would be developmentally challenged. Remember back to your childhood and the things you got away with. Your parents did the same things as I'm sure their parents did too - within the constraints of the time period in question. The fact that the Internet has brought these things to the fore-front just means thats its all the more important that they be addressed properly. Ignorance of the truth does not negate the facts.
Every child needs to test their boundaries in order to develop a sense of self and its up to you as a parent to define the boundaries and enforce them to a point. The grey area will always be when the child needs to try things themselves. Understand that if they can't do it at home, theres a 100% chance they can do it somewhere else. And when you determine these boundaries for your child its just as important to tell them WHY you set that boundary. If they don't have an understanding why, then in their own mind there is no reason to adhere to the rule.
I'll bet you didn't care about the hot stove rule until you burned yourself. That slipup probably instilled a belief that the rule is there for you protection. If your kids didn't make those mistakes too, then they'll have an incredibly difficult time at age 18 when they are suddenly placed in a position to defy a lot of the rules they've lived under for so long. Without that level of understanding they're destined to have a very difficult time making that delayed transition.
"Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati" -- Red Green
The problem I have with your post, is that it implictly claims that Islam is evil.
I do not agree. The poster was being ironic; the only people who say Hussein is evil are Bush and his cronies, usually as a backpeddling justification for murdering his kids.
In reality nobody, or at least nearly nobody, is evil. Evil in the classic movie-villain sense is "I'm bad, and I like it." It's the antagonist dressed in black and torturing, killing, and maiming because he's *evil* and that's *just what he does*.
In real life evil is harder to find. Real people generally consider themselves good. Bin Laden, for example, is clearly not evil. He is working from a dissagreeable (and one might even say faulty) perspective. Saddam Hussein is not evil, he has different priorities and (yes) different beliefs from we the observers. But I'm sure HE believes he is good and doing the right thing, at least most of the time.
The poster was saying, I think, amounts to "What I do is evil? Funny, I don't feel evil." Or something like that.
To get back on topic somewhat: Pornography is evil like Saddam is evil, which is to say it isn't. Hell, people can't even agree over whether pornograhy is *bad*, much less evil.
In no way is any of the above commentary on Islam or any religion, except where it implicitly insults all christians. Didn't catch that? That's the trouble with implicit satements...
I want my Cowboyneal
My children (2 boys, now 19 and 20+) have had access to the Internet and its predecessor UseNet (via UUCP) since they were 8 and 9.
:(
During the first years, as I was part owner of Canada's first commercial ISP, I had full-time connection to the net from home and always had a Unix and later Linux box connected and active. I'd worked from home most of the boys' lives and continue to this day to do much from home.
During their upbringing, my wife and I had one major rule for their education - answer their questions with the truth to the limit of their endurance (and sometimes beyond). Nothing was held back if they asked the question - but they had to ask, we just lead them to the topics if we could.
About the time they became teenagers I took each of them in turn for a (daylight) walk through some of the worst parts of town - ostensibly to shop for a guitar at all the pawn shops found there. We discussed the various pitfalls of life and the trip set up for even more frank discussions shortly afterward.
Both boys were interested in what the Internet was all about, but alas, neither became programmers or web gods
On the other hand, both were interested enough in all things that the Internet became a magnet, especially for games. This lead to them wanting to sample warz which lead to the discussion of copyright.
Their access to the (at that time brand new) web starting in 1993 lead them to some of the seamier sides of life and I spent time purposely showing them about the worst things I could find - at that time mostly from UseNet news but today you'll find it directly in the web. The purpose was not to shock them but to innoculate them - and it seems to have worked. I don't believe that a person is truly educated until they have seen some examples of what the human animal can do if allowed to degenerate. I'm purposely not giving examples even of categories as there are as many devils as there are people to fear them - choose your own way - just keep the courage of your convictions.
When they were smaller, I helped them learn compassion by showing them how to treat those who were less able than they - mostly animals and birds, but they also have a cousin in a wheelchair. I never allowed them to be cruel but showed them what cruelty meant through examples from others. I wished that there were no examples but they are unfortunately not hard to come by.
When they reached 12, we enrolled them in the Canadian Air Cadets. They have stood watch at the local cenotaph several times on November 11th, and have a deep appreciation for war veterans and patriotism.
Both have had their own Internet connected computer for the past 4 years and prior to that they shared one in the downstairs rec-room. Their connection went via my firewall and I randomly (when I was bored, or when I noticed lots of traffic and knew it wasn't me) looked at the logs. The web was proxied and their e-mail host was my server so I had access to their communications.
The fact is, the number of times I checked over the 7+ years I can count on one hand. I only once came downstairs with a print-out of what they were looking at - and at that time it was because they were letting one of their (younger) friends look, something I'd specifically forbidden as that was up to their parents, not me.
Several times, when they were in their early teens, they asked me about some of the stuff poping up (even then) in advertising and in spam e-mails - again, they got answers to the limits of their endurance.
Today they are both loving and caring individuals. One has taken up Buddhism - but is not rabid about it. Both have full-time partners and jobs and are continuing their education with their own money.
Both use the Internet for education and entertainment and neither eschew the sexual side; but neither participate in unhealthy activities either.
Both of them talk to us about anything that comes into their lives; talk with no shame and with no obvious bou
Been there, done that, paid for the T-shirt
and didn't get it
Do you seriously think that having the family computer in an open area will stop a teenager from watching porn? My tip: When you have kids they will quickly do one of the following: a) shuttle floppy/zip-disk's/cd's/dvd's with content downloaded while you were out to their rooms on a regular basis, b) learn how to set up a proxy on the family computer that you don't know about, c) learn how to disable your restrictions on their computers, d) go to friends houses and shuttle assorted storage mediums from their, e) go have unprotected sex and knock up the neightbour girl in pure desperation.
nt
Porn is simply a means to an end. It is true that even teenagers need to find a way to that end, but the trouble with porn is that in many cases, to teenagers, it's also inadvertantly a source of education. The true problem isn't teenagers using porn, since sexual activity is in general healthy, but having their moral and sexual ideology sculpted by a source that is disntictly devoid of such wisdom. Some people would argue what the difference between a love scene in a movie and porn is - but the answer is, as always, emotional intent. If it's a *love* scene, then the message behind it is emotional expression, not hardcore f*%$*%$. Of course this pertains to artistic decency. It is with this difference that porn misleads many youths, who have not developed a a strong moral maturity, or sexual responsibility.
The problem I have with your post, is that it implictly claims that Islam is evil.
What the FUCK are you talking about? What post were you reading? Holy shit dude. PUT THE CRACK PIPE DOWN RIGHT NOW.
k thx bye.
What exactly are you worried about? I'd be much more worried about spyware/viruses and compromises of my home network than say, porn. Here's a small clue, kids (well boys anyway) will find porn, they will look at it, often. The more you try and stop it, the MORE effort they'll expend to find it.
My kid is 3 and has a computer with internet access so I can load up sites with games for him and let him play, www.shrek.com is one of his favorites.
As he gets older and begins surfing for himself, I'll probably supply him with 2 PC's one with Windows and no NIC for gaming and one with linux and a NIC for surfing/email/chatting. This solves the main problem I'd be worried with, viruses/spam/spyware/etc (well not solves but greatly reduces it).
When he gets old enough to start succumbing to his hormones I'm not quite sure what my approach might be, on one hand I'd almost rather just give him access to a library of porn so that at least I know he's not getting his hands on really nasty crap, but then I figure even if I handed him a case of DVD's and a drive full of mpegs he's still gonna find "other stuff" I don't know about. I guess my approach would be to monitor what he's surfing and if I find something particularly troublesome just talk to him about it and try and put it in perspective.
But I'd never be naive enough to think just because I told him "don't do that" that he wouldn't do that.
--- www.f-theocean.com
You are asking a bunch of unmarried childless geeks who spend time on Slashdot (instead of with their families) for parenting advice???
1) Decide if morality is flexible or absolute. If you fall into the situational ethics camp, don't censor. There's a good reason for watching porn. Take 5 minutes and make up a reason.
2) Decide if you child is old enough to drive a car or drink. No? Old enough to buy porn over the counter at the quickie mart. No? Then he or she isn't old enough to have the judgement to handle the unfettered porn on the internet.
3) Always keep the logs. Even if you don't look at them.
I come from a household of one child, I know as much as anyone that it is a real pain to have your parents always prying into your life. But my view is that there is a certain amount of freedom that a child must have. As discussed in previous replies, the answer is not to "rule with an iron fist" this just inspires curiosity and results in more disobedience than it prevents. A clear example of this is someone I knew in 9th grade, his family was one that was very devoted to catholocism and had 8 childeren ranging from 3 to 21. My friend at the time was in 8th grade and he was around 14 years old. His dad descovered one of his many brothers browsing pornogrophy on the internet. Since then his dad disalowed any internet in the house. This then became such an extreme that he would smash any pc board that incorporated anything that even remotly resembled a modem (including ethernet cards). This had a very detrimental effect on him, for a while he believed that the internet was the work of the devil and said anyone who used it was going to hell. But he was even tempted to the point of breaking; one day i descovered him browsing the web in the library and he was very embarased about it. Although soon he decided that it was ok and continued without shame. One thing lead to another and one day i found him browsing pornography in a carfully constructed hovel that he had built up around one of the computers (why the administration did not figure this out i am not sure) since then he has been doing everything he can to get his hands on it, it is an obsession that would never have come around if his dad had just let them have internet. my theory is that you must show a child what the internet is, show them what pornograpy is about and if they are good people like i am sure my friend was they will realize that there are things on the web that are too descusting for viewing and most likley never have a problem with it. (a child will look at pornography, it is inevitable, weather they will have a problem or not is up to the parents. The problem is set in due to strict rules. All my friends that have come from strict homes have problems such as this. whereas the ones that come from good homes that are open about what it is and teach good values are much better at coping with it. (no madder who you are though you still look at it and if you are a reputable person deny it)
There are actually people reading Slashdot who have had a date at some point in their life and are married with children? :)
Parents, once you're past making the huge mistake of actually letting the kids have computers in their rooms
You must be joking me. That is like saying "It is a huge mistake to let a child play with a hammer". Of course they could easily smash their thumb, but if they were taught how to use it properly then they would be capable of building great new things. (OK granted that analogy was pretty lame, hammers do not contain explicit material)
Kids should begin early learning how to use a computer. There is an alarming number of people in the world incapable of using a search engine or utilizing basic productivity software. The internet is an important part of the learning process! Encourage your kids to use the internet for good and not evil, install some parental control device if you want to be a hard ass, but for shit's sake.... teach the kid to build something.
http://brandonbloom.name
Never before have I seen a Slashdot article with so many underage Slashdotters commenting and giving their ages.
I'm sure the submitter is a real father with the best of intentions, but I also can't help thinking that if a pederast wanted to troll for forbidden Slashdot fruits, he hardly could have crafted a better lure than this Ask Slashdot.
Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
I'd give em three strikes to mess up. After that, bust out the keystroke logger. But be honest, let them know the keystroke loggers in place.
If brute force isn't working, you're not using enough.
remember they are smarter than you.
Of course you can install a traffic monitor/sniffer to see what they do.
But as soon as they suspect you do that they will switch to go through an ssh gateway and cloak their surfing and hte content.
If you dont want them to access the net, dont gove them computers.
Second, there is a whole lot of worse things that can happen to your kids or they can see than a few tits on a porn site.
Do you also block your kids from watching the news?
you lose.
Since when does making light of Saddam Hussein equal an attack on Islam?
Get off my launchpad!
My parents were by no means relaxed when it came to screwing up, if your a kid, under 10 years old, you dont know why what your doing is wrong.
all you know is that it hurts when your mom swats you for being stupid.
untill i was old enough to realize WHY what i was doing was wrong they had to do that, after i reached that age i gained common sense. my parents saw that i had matured and they let me do my own thing pretty much. a very good parenting method, i think i turned out ok anyways.
I would not bother censoring the internet or TV, its annoying, parents who try and moniter stuff like that are just annoying and thier kids do it in spite of them. you cant blind the world we live in from your kids because when they grow up after living a sheltered life it hits em like a tonne of bricks and some kids like that will not be able to cope. the internet is a good window to the world we live in and i feel that its a safe tool to educate to kids that world.
just dont let your kids know your credit card number AND have access to the internet, or you will be subscribed to so much PORN youl go broke!
Sure, you get curious and check some things you wouldn't like your parents seeing. But then you learn, and then you stop. Trust them and they'll regulate themselves.
-----
Score 3? For what? Being wrong, at length? - smirkleton
All I can say is congratulations on a job well done :)
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
...and you only think you know what parenting means. Most kids (of which you are only bordering on not being) have grand ideas about how they're not going to make the mistakes with their kids that their parents made with them, and they have an incredible faith that people grow up with instincts far better than they actually are.
Your parents know better. They had lived with you for years before the earliest memory you can recall. And if you have a good head on your shoulders, you should thank the folks that raised you, because they probably worked hard putting it there.
Nah, what you want to do is tell your kids you respect their privacy that you won't monitor their internet use, then monitor their internet use secretly. It's a win-win situation, they'll feel more at ease and you'll find out what they are really up to.
Do this with their phone lines too.
I'm sorry, but you are wrong. While I can't comment about whether Bin Laden is Evil according to your definition (probably not - most religious fanats won't be), Saddam Hussein clearly is.
We are talking about a man who needs no further justification for his actions than "That's what I want to do" and "That's what will promote me". In case that wasn't understood - "me" is Saddam Hussein and family - not the Iraqi people, not his religious sect inside it, not even the Ba'ath. Just him and his family.
Nice point. A pitty it does not conform to reality.
My wife is a consenting adult, whom I trust completely. That trust has been built over a period of years, and is mutual. Having spent birthdays, holidays, etc apart due to miltary duties for months and months, we've both had ample opportunity to violate our marriage vows, and we have not. She can be hard-core, and is more than able to take care of herself (I've watched her shoot guys down... brutal.) I would never snoop on my wife, because we have built up that trust, and because she is MORE than capable of thinking and reasoning for herself.
That, my friend, is the difference between a consenting adult and a minor child. Why is there an age of consent? It's because younger children and teens generally don't have the ability, breadth of experience, or perspective to assent to certain activities. This is why slime like NAMBLA are so fundamentally wrong. A child cannot consent to activities like they advocate, because they cannot adequately appreciate and understand the ramifications of those activities.
My wife is of the same mind on this matter, by the way. I prefer to think of myself as a watchful guardian rather than a "snoop" (it's all semantics anyway). If I'm not there to help them interpret what they see, then who will be? Who will love them enough to help them understand? Who will address the tough questions with them? (and thanks to open communication and a little technology, I'll be able to anticipate some of those critical conversations).
It's all good, my young friend, and it's an absolutely beneficient effort with nothing less than their best interests at heart... A labor of love, if you will.
It would be a lot easier for me to say "sure, go ahead and do whatever the hell you want..." but I love them too much to do that. They may not appreciate it at the time (I certainly didn't), but God willing, they may eventually come to be thankful for all those hours and all that effort.
It took me until my late 20's to realize exactly how hard my parents had worked to make me a quality human being, and I feel that it's my parental obligation to return the favor with my own children.
You may disagree, of course.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
you've been a nazi enough in this story, DIE.
growing up in my ultra protestant home, i wasnt allowed to get online in my room so what did i do?
being the geek i am i went ahead and got juno, beware of dog, and a VERY long phone line to get online with very late at night
eventually i was found out and eventually i found ways to get around their restrictions. fact of the matter is - i didnt do anything wrong online. also, since i dont consider this wrong anyway ESPECIALLY for a pubescant boy, I didnt look at porn. Now my little brother has just turned 16 and is under similar restrictions. He has done the same thing as me but has gone even further. He first made a VB program that looked exactly like my parents earthlink logon screen and got on that way for several months. then he got juno and beware of dog like me. then, finally, he was caught, and the computer that he spent all summer saving for is now in the basement. point is - there is nothing on his computer that I cant find, even if he tried , and he has no porn either. the internet is our social outlet and our main source of information outside of our super religious parents. without it, I would not be as well off as I am today, nor would my brother - it is just to bad that we have to pay for it the way that we do. True - while this may be a very small minority - speaking from experience- I can say, the internet is a necessity for children growing up in religious fanatics homes - ESPECIALLY if they live in a rural area away from other people and other points of view. If I had allowed myself to be trapped in by my parents - I'd be another god fearing, video game hating, homophobe like my parents and so many of their church going baptist friends and children
on a last note - I'm planning on letting my little brother use my comp if he needs/wants to while my nazi rents have his under lock and key.
We seldom regret saying too little but often regret saying too much.
- An American helicopter being hit by a rocket and then going down is a fun thing to watch.
;)
- Two American helicopters bumping into each other because of the average American's low IQ are even more fun to watch.
Enjoy!
Anyone of you joining me at the afterwar party?
--
A decadent European
(No, George, for the last time, you'll have to pay for the "war" alone, stick that in your pipe and smoke it)
... 'On the Internet' is not from viewing disgusting images, they might horrify or disturb you, but they cannot physically hurt or permanently corrupt your teenager. The real danger is being tempted to literally crack the bank. If you are sucessfully detected, that can land you, especially if you are within range of the TLAs of the USA, in to an extremely well secured future for many years.
I am horrified by how little the banking and financial industry seems to know about secure telecoms. Why do they rely on just a little self generated password when they should really issue every customer with a proper cryptographic certificate?
Yup, my 14 year old has free and unfettered internet access. Recently he blundered into a web site depicting animated images of naked people copulating like animals. He was offended and wanted to know how to find some more artistic and tasteful pictures. We Googled around for a bit together and found some really quite pleasing pictures of nude and semi nude girls.
You will do your children far more damage by throwing a hissy at them than they will receive from looking at a mere picture.
1) They must use Internet Explorer
:-D
2) You will bill them for your having to clean up viruses/spware/trojans that they pick up from web browsing and other internet activities.
Yes, I'm joking
As the old saying goes: Spare the Rod, Spoil the child. The older I get (I am only 22 now) the more truth I see in that
I don't believe in that. I can stomach the rest of it (a nice set of LOGICAL NON-VIOLENT consequences which are easy to understand are a fine thing) -- but I don't like that particular phrase. It implies beatings; which I do not agree with in any shape or form. If you think beating your kid's going to help anything, may I introduce you to another old phrase: Throwing the baby out with the bath-water.
I've seen too many friends damaged by abusive parents; I have too many friends that have been. I can't sit by and let that phrase be used. It makes me sick.
My personal opinion (and I know a few child psychologists and the like) is that you've gotta show your kids a lot of love and affection and make sure that they always know that you still love them, regardless of what they do. You can get angry at them if the occasion's right, but you've always got to go back to the old standby of giving them loving attention.
Long term nastiness towards kids does not work.
Definition of evil: Thinking like "That's what I want to do" and "That's what will promote me"
So, this does not implicitely mean that your King is evil? he matches both those things, heck most people I know would also be evil using your definition.
Rumsfelt ? Does he do what he want to do? Does he do what will promote him or does he do what is "right"? is eh evil as well?
Danger, you are walking on very thin ice now, what with election coming up in less than a year.
King George, better craft your posts better in the future...
I'm sorry, but you are wrong. While I can't comment about whether Bin Laden is Evil according to your definition (probably not - most religious fanats won't be), Saddam Hussein clearly is.
We are talking about a man who needs no further justification for his actions than "That's what I want to do" and "That's what will promote me".
You do realize that if you ran a PR campaign and isolated the least moral and put up your more negative assumptions about motivations on just about anyone (yes, including Bush), you can make them look quite "evil".
"Evil" is a pretty poorly defined concept, but in general, I've found that when you actually know and talk to someone, even someone widely disliked, their viewpoint isn't all that unreasonable. They're just another human with a different background and somewhat different set of goals. Be it Bill Gates, Fidel Castro, Richard Nixon, or George Bush, I suspect that friends and family can appreciate their own position.
Furthermore, Saddam is *not* particularly religious -- as a matter of fact, Saddam is also supposed to be on the al Queda shit list because of the fact that he has seriously secularized an Islamic country.
May we never see th
There's a world of difference between passing notes in class and what can be found on the Internet. What used to be scarce and hard to come by without significant effort is now easily accessible with virtually no effort.
What gets me is that the same idiots who make snide remarks like "you want to have your kid live in a cage until they're 18?" are the same asshats who complain it's the parent's fault when a child misuses the Internet, resulting a child's abuse or even death. You can't have it both ways. The Internet is a fabulous tool that can be terribly misused and can in fact be dangerous in the hands of a child. It is outright negligence to not be monitoring your child's activity online and the law agrees with me.
Get the teenagers a login on one good erotica site. Try Suicide Girls. It's non-tacky erotica. They have good message boards, and the kids can get all their questions answered.
Parents, once you're past making the huge mistake of actually letting the kids have computers in their rooms, what's a reasonable set of guidlines?
If you admit it's a huge mistake to put computers in their rooms, then why are you asking for help in getting yourself farther down that path? The solution is to back up a bit, and correct your huge mistake by moving the computers from the kids' rooms to a common area. Do it now, because the longer you take to do this, the harder it will be.
Use Ctrl-C instead of ESC in Vim!
I had a computer in my room; my parents thought I used it too much, so they kept my keyboard for all but one hour of the day. This was based on the mistaken notion that my box wouldn't be bootable without a keyboard. With on-screen keyboard available, all this really did was make access more irritating.
They had the right idea, though. A bigger problem than what content the kids are viewing is how long they're spending online. Kids should have real-life experience with people thier own age, the Internet is notorious for replacing that with far less fulfilling interaction.
But obviously, content can still be a problem. Censorware doesn't work, a better idea is to have some kind of log set up so that you can see what your children are viewing. They will be reluctant to look at porn if they know you will find out about it.
Remember there are also a lot of weird, cult-like groups on the Internet. Talk to your kid if he's reading anything to do with "otherkin," "multiples," or any other group that claims to be metaphysically different from the general population. I would rather have my children into drugs than otherkin...seriously. This is the kind of thing that teenagers often grow out of, but sometimes they don't and turn into useless fat narcissists instead.
It's a cliche, but even if your kids protest the rules now, they will be thankful for it later. I personally wish my parents had paid attention to what I was doing on the Internet. I wouldn't be hooked on furry porn now, and and I wouldn't have gotten into all the stupid script kiddie shit I find so embarassing today.
Just be sure they understand that if any invoices show up from the RIAA/MPAA/SCO/Penthouse, it's coming out of their allowance.
Scratched Emulsion
If your kids are boys, they are going to look at porn on the internet. There's nothing you can do to stop them and little you can do to catch them. If they are girls, I have no idea.
Kids shouldn't be unsupervised on the Internet. At 11, I think they're still kids. In the real world, you wouldn't let them hang around with kids who used bad language, with creepy adults, or in a sex shop. You'd find out who their friends were, what they were doing, and keep them clean. Just because it's online doesn't mean you should stop monitoring.
I don't think kids should have computers in their rooms in the first place. It makes them antisocial and separates them from the rest of the family. And it just makes it harder to keep an eye on what they are doing.
-m
it hardly matters because by the time the slashdot crowd have managed to replicate the internet will be beamed from huge holographic towers to the back of our heads or something
I'm a 14-year-old Linux geek. I don't look at porn. My friends all say that I'm odd and strange and I'll end up horribly messed up for life.
It's not that I'm odd, it's just that I've walked in on my (50-year-old) dad looking at porn one-too-many times.
So here's a somewhat interesting point of view on internet restrictions: should parents have rules, too?
While I respect your views, I would think the mass graves in Iraq would say that Saddam is indeed evil, whether he believes he was right or not.
I'm not a Bush-pushing "chronie" but put what you are saying into perspective, please.
Kind of like saying, "Hitler wasn't evil, just misunderstood."
(And no, the war wasn't about mass graves.)
Does it take time and (possibly) research, yes, but it does make it harder for your kids to get into questionable material. Yes, if they want to find things, they will, but you can at least make it harder for them. At the same time, grant them some privacy and trust. They will respect you more for that. (coming from an early twenties who still remembers being a teenager)
The problem here is defining what is bad for someone. Here some simple guidelines are probably safest. Just about any healthy teenager is going to want to check out pornography at some point. To deny this is at best unrealistic or at worst an outright lie, and any kid with a normal quota of common sense is quite capable of perceiving that you are lying if you claim it's "bad" for them.
I guess the thing is to not let any behaviour get obsessive. Sure, check your logs, but leave some leeway for exploration.
Perhaps an injection of cynicism might help: educate your kids into asking themselves what people are asking of them.
you sound like that chick ann coulter.
this whole topic is messed up though. a 15 year old... wtf are they not going to know about or be shocked by? unless these are some really sheltered kids. southpark is good example as it really describes our society as cleanly as possible. all kids should be able to fire up a torrent and download the newest episodes.
if you teach them to understand new things instead of just what things "are" then they will have skills aplicable to all areas of life. i was building computers at 15.. jesus. who didnt grow up with a comodore or atari or something... take it away? because they didnt tell you they saw some tities or subscribed to a bbs to find out how to grow weed?
you can turn on the tv and see the president kill thousands, and you think a little porn will 'deeply shatter' them?
ppl need more respect for their kids. encourage them to think and learn and explore. teach your kids perspectives and they will always be smart.
I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
It's interesting to read some of the rantings of people who don't have children, but who are (in their opinion) experts in parenting and raising kids, simply because they were once children. This is rather like football players thinking that they can coach, simply because they've played the game. Yes, good coaches frequently were good players, but many of the finest KNEW what to do, but weren't necessarily as gifted at doing it. However, they are almost always the product of good coaching themselves.
... ... ...
Likewise, good parents generally are the product of a good example, even if they aren't perfect and morally pure as the driven snow. Good parents generally trust their children, but also remember what it was like when they were kids themselves, and will use that knowledge to verify that their own kids aren't doing things that might endanger them.
Yes, I trust my sons, but it's not blind trust. They know that I will come into the room unannounced, and that I will want to know who they're chatting with, who they're exchanging e-mail with, and so on. They know why I'll do this.
BTW, on a lark, I posed as an older female one time to chat with my son and one of his friends. It was enlightening (to say the least) some of the language I saw. I offered to "teach them a lesson. They eagerly agreed. My lesson?
"Never
Never
Never
chat the way you have here, unless you are certain you know who you're talking to. This is your dad. Go to bed."
I pointed out that I could have been a nutcase (which I am), or worse, the father of my son's girlfriend. I pointed out that my son would've never seen her again if it had been her father posing as this older female.
Open door where the computer is? Check.
Unannounced walk-ins? Check.
Same rules for dad as the sons? Check.
Trust my sons? Check
Verify that they're being honest with me? Absolutely.
Tim
Get the comptuers OUT of their room. Get the television out of their room. Giving them the freedom to waste away at a computer for hours on end at their age is ridiculous.
If they're writing a paper, that generally doesn't involve the internet. Or at least, the "write stuff" phase shouldn't. If they do have a computer in their room to write schoolwork, keep it on the LAN so they can use the printer, etc - but don't allow access to the internet from anything but the shared machines.
I am not dead because I had private internet access and I could look up gay support groups. How about that!!
There is no way I could have dealt with the feelings I felt without that data, and feedback. Information will always hold a special place in my life!
I dare say I would never have picked up a pamflet or anything that could have possibly "outed" me at that age, or gone to some sort of support group. Private internet access is a great thing if you want to survive.
Face facts: all of these things exist and are real. You cannot shield or shelter your children from anything that is real. Eventually they will come in contact with some or all of these "hidden, naughty, inappropriate" ideas, images, and contacts. So as a parent, you have a choice: you can teach them to think for themselves, and introduce them over time to some of these things, guiding them and helping them to develop their own ideas about ethics, morality, and justice. Or, you can try to shield them until they inevitably leave your care. This can succeed or fail; it's difficult to know which has worse consequences. In one case, you have a child - now an adult - still incapable of dealing with the world around him or her, frightened and vulnerable with no independent thinking ability. In the other, you have a child - now an adult - with an unhealthy fascination and/or shame at knowing the existence of these things. And since you've failed to shield them from this dangerous knowledge, they've acquired it instead from others - riddled no doubt with inaccuracies and colored by fear of discovery. Is that any way for a 25-year-old to live? This will be your child...
In short, nothing on the Internet is any more or less dangerous than the real-world counterparts that so worried parents 20, 50, or 500 years ago. There's more of it, it's more accessible, and it's centralized. But there's nothing new here. Any parenting philosophy you have in the physical world can and should be applied as-is in the virtual world. And I hope for the sake of society and your own children's happiness that it's one of openness, honesty, and independence. Since nearly all children survive physically to adulthood today, your main function as a parent is to prepare your children mentally. Hiding reality will not serve them well.
I'm right now 16, almost 17, and I have a broadband-connected computer in my room. My dad is a DBA, and my mother barely knows how to use AOL. Both want me to stay away from "bad" internet sites. However, I set up the network, I built the computer, and they know that if I truly want to do something like that, I have the ability. But they trust me, and know that I can make my own decisions. The times when I've done something they think I shouldn't (and been caught) they punished me. But with the punishment, they also told me why what I did was wrong, and talked to me about why I would do something like that, and why I made that decision. However, they kept with the punishment even after they knew I was sorry, until the punishment they'd set was served. From all of this, not only do I pretty much agree with them on most of these things, but I follow it, because I know why I should. So educate your kids on what to do and trust them to do it, because you only cripple them when you shield them too much.
I tend to read slashdot in class on my laptop, which takes place in a room with 700 people. Poor people are me that aren't allowed to read it are always looking over my shoulder for a glaze at the news.
Yes, let them cherish every scar on their body as a lesson from their kind, wise, noble parent.
A while back my parents didn't want me looking at porn, but they couldn't figure out how to install blocking software.
So they had me set it up for them. oops
I may have given the wrong impression with my "big brother" comment. I'm not talking about a keyghost on every computer and hidden cameras... I'm talking about a simple proxy that keeps an eye on traffic, IPs, etc. The internet can be a pretty sick place, and I'd like to know if my kids are swimming in a cesspool. But to be fair, even the old BBS days had their share of the seedier side of life (the older posters here probably remember those days). That stuff has always been out there, the difference is that it's much easier to access via the net... a bona-fide shop of horrors is just a click away.
It's about earning trust. Reliability has to be proven and established, preferably via some kind of track record, or trial period (one the child may or may not know about). Give them one warning, just to let them know you are watching, then lower the boom, and for God's sake FOLLOW THROUGH.
Consider the alternatives...
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
I was online very early - starting with CompuServe in 1984 when we rotated back to the States. At home and a buddies house with Commodores, Tandys, and an Apple II. We hacked everything we could and yeah, ultimately got busted by the MIBs who (fortunately) just gave us a warning. ASCII pr0n wasn't exactly what the doctor ordered, so the magazine variety had to suffice. I BBSed with a bunch of other folks, met a bunch of folks online - some I met IRL, others not.
The big bad Internet is just one of a myriad of tools that people use to communicate. It's replaced the phone for most teens I know. What you do online does not necessarily reflect who you are or what you're going to be. I remember folks spewing warnings about the evil of AD&D when I was a teen, the total overcompensation for it and raid of my personal library, the destruction (at a book burning sponsored by the Catholic Church) of 2 years of gaming notes and characters and worldbuilding and books. All in the name of "protecting me" from an evil influence. I think a lot of parents act *exactly* the same way about computing and the Internet.
My parents trusted me; every now and then I betrayed that trust and did something incredibly stupid and dangerous and was punished for it if I got caught. The majority of the time I did get caught. As a general rule, I followed my parents' guidelines. I didn't consider them unreasonable. I think I turned out okay so far: love my IT job, happy with my $, happy with my friends & family.
I smoked cigarettes, I drank alcohol. It was another time (I graduated from HS in '87) and we spent my early adolescence stationed in Spain - 3 years. Alcohol was freely available, I had a lot of money (for a junior high and high school kid) from various entrepreneurial activities. My buddies and I ate breakfast in a neighborhood bar before school and had a few beers there and played video games after school. When I got back to the States I got in trouble for both smoking and drinking, but my parents blew it off - they'd rather have me drinking at home under supervision than binging at some party. I learned moderation from my Mom.
As a parent, you certainly can shape the kind of person your kid is going to be - for good and for ill. But you are not the only influence on their life and certainly in adolescence aren't the most important one - not to them anyway.
The best thing you can do is spend time with your kids; I'm not talking hours and hours of mutually boring 'hanging out' or Interrogation 101. But spend some quality time with them, even if it's just a few minutes a day, to ask how they are, how stuff is going. Not a quiz on what they're learning, but ask them about stuff they're interested in - things important to them, how they fit in at school, gauge how happy or bummed they are, etc. Don't be all judgemental or you'll lose a fragile rapport.
In other words, treat them like a human fucking being and SHOW them you respect them by listening to them. You don't have to agree with them, just *listen*. Mete out discipline as needed.
Of course, the shoe is on the other foot too.
Just connect all your home PC's to your squid server, and use that as the gateway to the broadband connection.
Print out the offending parts of the squid.log file that you dont like and leave that on their keyboard - they will soon understand that everything they do they are responsible for.
When and if they are old enough / good enough to bypass your technical ability to log things, then they have proven that they are no longer answerable to you. Think of it as grabbing the pebbles out of the blind master's hand.
The only purpose of NetNanny and similar programs is to prevent a child frrom being startled by things they are too young to handle. By young, I mean under seven, under ten.
There's a transition period after that, till puberty, but by 13 or so, your kid is going to access porn, violence, etc., whether you like it or not. Preteen & teen boys love violence, teen boys love the perverse, and post-puberty boys spend 26 to 28 hours a day being horny.
If you have brought up your kids well, and taught them values, they will go out and look for naked breasts oncee or twice, and decide there are more interesting things to do with a computer.
But to imagine you can forcibly prevent your mature, intelligent children from viewing whatever they wish is to life in a dream. They will do what they wish, if not at home then at the library, at a friend's, at an internet cafe ... If you're trying to fence off teens, it's because you abandoned them for the previous 13 years, when you should have been bringing them up and instilling values
I'm a parent of a 13 year old girl. Our daughter's computer is NOT in her bedroom. There is zero chance it will ever be in her bedroom. I've also taken extra steps regarding email. I run our own mail server so I have complete control. I gave my daughter her own "vanity" domain and she can have any number of personalized email addresses that she wishes. I've also told her she can offer her friends email addresses, though no one has gone for that. All email going into and out of her domain is archived. I do NOT read the emails, however, it's just a safety precaution. I hope I never have a need to poke through her personal messages. BTW, I've never looked in her diary, either.
I've implemented reasonably good filtering of email (both her domain and my own) via SpamAssassin, so spam is extremely rare - porn spam has been non-existent. My daughter does not have the ability to change the SpamAssassin settings. All email attachments are scanned for virus by the mail server (clamav). Some file attachment types are refused completely (exe, scr, and other dangerous types).
I will NEVER EVER use any type of content blocking software such as NetNanny. They don't work, they are politically motivated, and they are complete shit.
-- Will program for bandwidth
we are going to get past whatever you do. especially teenagers. you may as well just trust us. you see this way we like you, because you trust us, and we get to explore the internet freely. whats really the worst thing a kid could do on the internet?look up pr0n! cmon! every kid is going to do that no matter what guidelines are in place. and before the internet kids used magazines....you can't stop anything. you may as well accept it and be the good guy!
I'd put the computer in the family room. That's all you need to do.
This way they will learn to be good little hackers. When you are no longer catching anything bad going on it means thay have become pro's. Send me their names and I'll hire them to take over the world
Hey, i just turned 15, i bought my oun computer 3 years ago and its in my room.
i have seen pron b 4, but i dont look at it
so ifyou just tell your kids what is right and give them slack! then it should be all right, though i would put a key logger on the computer.
NERDS:i am a nerd, my mom tried tryed to keep the internet pass to herself so i had to ask for it to use the net, but hey i just cracked it any ways. and used it when she was away or what ever.
PERENTS: dont use a web blocker, it is so anoying, my mom had one of them and it blockes stuff that is not even bad, like it will block the weather because it says snow and it thinks its talking aobut drugs.
and hey i go to hacking site and am a wanna be hacker. but i aint gonna grow up to be one, i am just being one know to learn more about computers. so if you are spying on your kids and they go to hacking site dont stop them(if they know what they are doing that is, u dont want a virus on your comp.)
Are you on drugs or are you a complete fucking moron? Which one? Both?
Oh, and for your information, Bin Laden is evil too. As is anyone who purposely targets civilians. Yes, that makes the IRA evil, too.
-- Will program for bandwidth
I contest that Donald Rumsfeld IS pure evil. You just have to look at ANY video with him in it and you can tell. You can see how he is drunken with power, and insane with his own ego. I'm no Bush basher like some, he's an OK guy, but Rummy is SATAN! And before you troll me, please actually look at a video clip of him.
True genius is grasping a situation like a peice of fruit, and peircing it just right so that it drains dry.
I'm a 15 year old, and have had internet access since Prodigy was THE ISP.
Prodigy was never "THE ISP". It was "THE service that let you get online but there was no Internet access" in like 1989, which is when you were, what, 1?
Simply Put telling your kids not to do something or trying to keep them from it wont stop them. What if they go over to a friends house? Its best to enourcage them to do more productive things such as making websites or programing. the porn is always goign to be there and you CAN NOT stop it, no matter how hard you try. but its your kids choice to look at it or not. make sure you raise a nice kid and he wont look at such materal,at least not very often. Mainly just be someone your kid can always talk to and never shut them out. Just because you gave birth to them doesnt mean they have to like you.
+-+-+-The folowing statement is true. The previous statement is false.-+-+-+
If your kid is going to betray your confidence they will do it whether you set rediculous rules or not. 2000 years ago 14 year olds were considered to be entering adulthood, now we pressure them to become rebels so that we can place rediculous rules on them.
The fact is, kids have a lot of conversations on their computers these days. I know sever non-geeky people who are IM addicts. There grandparents had not followed there kids around listening in on conversations; so why should their parents do it to them?
Let them get in trouble while they're at an age that they can live through it. If you guard them like a hawk until they're 20 they may die in their first mistake. Too many college kids drink their first beer with "friends." Only to choke on their own vomit as their "friends" are too drunk to roll them over.
If you're gonna watch your kids online keep Kazaa off it; so RIAA can't sue ya. Then instead of trying to guard them the old fashioned way, setup your internet through a router and watch the sites your kids visit. I guarantee they aren't going to hack your root password, and if they do then you should embrace them for figuring that one out.
It's better to have a good relationship with your kid than have him on a leash. I'm not trying to give the "be your childs friend" argument. I'm just sick of watching friends be abused by their parents lack of emotional control, and dictatorial style rule of their social life.
no matter what you do to block me, or monitor what I do on the internet I will learn and figure out how to get around it, if I can't my friends will help. I will get exposed to this stuff anyway, either trust that I will do whats right or don't allow me access at all.
Genocide - A word invented to describe what the Turks did to the Armenians in 1922.
I have kids of similar age as yours. Asking the slashdotters whether teenagers should be allowed to surf porn -- ummm, is the Pope Catholic? Does a wild bear...?
My kids know that I log _everything_, that while I may not have the skillset of the best sysadmin, I know iptables and keep a running ethereal session open at times. I watch the wire, and everyone knows it.
Even at late teen years, suburban kids lead a rather sheltered life. While kids just a few years older than yours are under fire in Baghdad, that does not mean that your kids have grown up to that maturity level - even though their ages may be equivalent. Anyone who thinks otherwise is pathetically naive, and likely more immature than your 13 year old.
While they are under your roof, you are still training them. They are still building habits that will last their lifetime. If your kids were really mature enough to surf uncensored, then they'd be out on their own, earning their paycheck, paying for their own connection. It really is that simple.
It isn't pretty, it isn't fun, but it is your responsibility - you dare not shirk it.
I'm really tired of this discussion, or discussions exactly like it. 100 responses saying that kids should be trusted because trust helps them develop responsiblity. 100 responses saying that they're my kids it's my responsiblity to know everything they do. Other people saying that kids can get into anything no matter what anyway so why not trust them. More people saying everything that kids get into is inherently good for them provided that you as a parent have provided them with a good foundation to understand and interpret what they find in a positive way. The fact is that people need to realize they don't have control over kids. No, I am NOT saying they can't make kids do things or prevent their kids from being exposed to "evil" or negative things. Because parents actually can do that somewhat. What I'm saying is that people need to realize that they don't actually have control over their kids in terms of who their kids become. You cannot make your child a good person. You can't force them into viewing things the way that you do and you certainly can't assume responsibility for your child's life. We've seen restrictive parents have wild kids and we've seen them have straight-laced kids. Just like we've all seen horrible parents have great kids and horrible parents have criminal kids. Not like we have any place to judge anyway. At some point your kid has responsibility for his or her own life. And it's not at like 25 like some parents want to believe, it's actually pretty young. Certainly my parents influenced me, but who I am is because I decided this is the person I want to be. Our jobs as parents are just to put our kids in a position where they can make a good desicion. Expose them. But certainly don't just pick one style of parenting and follow it religiously. sometimes kids should be trusted, sometimes they should be given freedom. At the very least, you gotta let them masturbate. *shrugs*
But cloaking your failure to cope with frustration or fear of sexuality under a transparent acription to God's design is cowardly.
I'm sure we'll get the entire spectrum of views on parenting here. Everyone wants to convince everyone else that their approach (or their parent's approach) is the best/worst/whatever.
;)
Let me jump in, then
So my parents robbed me of my Human Right to Rebellion. Any time I tried something "forbidden," they merely co-opted it, and took the thrill out of it.
Starting with building fires (as an eight year old), I was given full permission to build fires, with a few constraints. Dad taught me how to kindle a good blaze with only a single match and twigs. While I wasn't strictly forbidden from using paper, lighter fluid, plastic, or candles, they were regarded as being beneath contempt. I wasn't going to stoop to that level. Not even to shock my parents. Well, with all that, I had to give up my dream of becoming an arsonist.
So I got caught sneaking some wine a few years later. So Dad split a beer with me. Not long after, he mixed up some martinis. Did I want to drink? OK. I could, but it had to be at home, or I had to promise to call for a ride home if I were somewhere else. That was much too reasonable to rebel against, and, to this day, I have failed to be an alcoholic.
Then I wanted to stay out late with friends, or on a date, or something. This was the clincher -- I knew they couldn't come up with a reasonable way of relinquishing control. But they did. OK. I could do it. They were counting on me to be responsible, not get arrested, not get anyone pregnant, not get in trouble. But if I did, I shouldn't hesistate to call on them, and they'd pay my bail, rescue me, or do what they could to help out. Damn! Defeated again.
Then again, I had a college friend whose father used to beat him with a heavy oak dowell anytime he ever broke a rule. Now there was a kid who didn't know the meaning of "limits" when it came to drinking, smoking dope, and getting in trouble. Still, he got it out his system, and today we're pretty much both responsible (hah!) citizens. So ya never know.
Suggest appropriate behaviour, and the consequences of poor behaviour while using the tool, and let them make their own decisions. They will satisfy *any* curiosity regardless of what restrictions you think are worth implementing. Let them be free.
" (The same goes for those abstinence-only idiots.)"
My religious beliefs don't make me an idiot. I'm not a parent, I'm only 18, so don't bother giving me any of that "not in touch with today's reality" and "don't understand what it's like to be a kid" crap.
My parents didn't put huge controls on me, they just tought me what I should avoid and more importantly *why* I should avoid it. And you know what? If you think that "why" is bullshit, then I don't care. That's what you believe, and I'll accept that without insulting you or thinking less of you. But you have no business insulting people for their beliefs without knowing a thing about them.
I've known them all, and honor students, giften musicians and (in Canada) Air/Army/Sea Cadets or Boy/Girl scouts get just as drunk and have just as much sex as every other teenager.
Then I guess you don't know me yet. Honest to goodness Eagle Scout, musician, and now I can add teacher to the list.
and you have to accept the fact that they WILL try drinking,
Tried it. Age 19. Didn't like it.
Tried it again. Age 21. Liked it only for social occasions.
Still haven't ever been drunk.
they WILL have sex
Nope. In a relationship right now, and I'm waiting. One of the things I learned from my family was to let love grow rather than just make it.
and chances are they will try drugs
Got me there. Cafeene, all the way.
These are just things kids do in high school, and your restrictivness and controlling attitude may actually encourage these things to happen.
Yea, and look where it got me now. Professional teacher in a foreign country. What a waste of a life, huh?
we all know that repressive households are responsible for all of the worlds strippers and porn stars, and who doesn't love them?
I'm glad to see you have something to hang on to.
On a realistic point of view though, the most successfull people in this world have been through a thorough and tough education.
Porn stars and strippers are actually the result of families that didn't give a shit.
Let's not mention the irony of your reference to the inflation being so high by the time you're age 50, meaning my theory of you being around 12 years old seems to valid, in which case you yourself are a kid and are using these arguments so that your mommy and daddy may one day let you post white-trash jerry-springer-reject shit nobody cares about without having to switch back to your AOL homepage when they drop by the door.
My ideal solution would be quite simple: dont impose any rules, but make it clear (and follow through) that you are logging the sites they visit. Tell them not to make you check it...:)
caritj.org
Give them a stack of RFC's and tell them they can freely access the internet using any software they write themselves. Oh, and that it must be GPL'd too. Can't start them too early.
Klein bottle for rent - inquire within.
All people who are described as evil see themselves and what they are doing as good. Even if the only good is to make thier own lives better.
For your kids, the rule is this:a ve010814.html
Keep yourself private. Nobody needs to know what school you go to, what you wear, where you live, where you shop, or anything like that. If your kids ask why not, you can give'em this link:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/sexsl
For you, the rule is this:
Talk with your kids. Have an interest in what they're doing. Ask them what they've been looking into, what they liked, what they didn't. Ask them to show you some of it if they will. Help them find sites that might have more stuff that they like, ask them for help finding things you might like. Basically, be involved.
That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze
Wait a second, the murder of Uday and Qusay Hussein needed justification beyond the fact that they were both brutal murderers and rapists themselves?
Go ahead, parents. Regulate my internet access (16 year old college student talking here). Just don't block slashdot and bash.org, for the love of god! I mean, to hell with porn, you have to get your priorities straight.
Although it probably would be more like my regulation of their internet access, seeing as how I hold the only passwords to the Sun box which serves as gateway to the internet. Also, I doubt my dad knows Solaris.
Every cloud has a silver lining (except for the mushroom shaped ones, which have a lining of Iridium & Strontium 90)
Here is a simple solution for violaters of perfectly reasonable rules you have set forth as a parent: Unplug the telephone line/network wire from thier computer for 2 weeks, and see if they are willing to live with your rules at the end of the two weeks. If they do not obide by your rules then, just change your password to login to your ISP, and cut the telephone cord running to thier computer/disconnect them from the router. and then they will have to buy thier own damn service, and telephone line/T1 connection. Tough love sucks, but it works.
Get your free Dropbox account with 2 GB Free storage!
Actually the truly evil person just wants what s/he wants and doesn't much care about what anyone else feels about it.
If you want to know why pornography is evil then just think about it from the point of view of the photographic objects. Imagine that was you, how degraded would you feel if you were the subject of those pictures. What kind of psycological defences would you have to put up just to get up in the morning? Kind of makes you understand why so many people in the porn industry are addicts doesn't it?
As for Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden, they are actually perfect examples of evil men, and Saddam has been known to execute the occasional relative himself, they are selfish, uncaring about others welfare, and malevolent. But then again, so is George W. Bush.
One last thing, every monster in history Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Napolean, Attila the Hun, Gengis Kahn, John Dillinger, Julius Ceaser, all of them, could honestly say that they didn't feel evil. Many of them felt that they were engaged in a noble enterprise. This is called self-delusion.
Well, don't you think it would be a little suspicious if, suddenly, the logs showed that every http access went to the same machine, for hours on end?
Nuff said!
Poorly (or overly) compressed pornography is *evil*.
You americans are really ridiculous.
You're the laughing stock of the whole world.
I would recommend that you set clear rules with clear consequences if the rules are broken.
After that, I would recommend that all of your children access the internet via a single point. Setup a small home network if you do not already have one and then use a proxy server with a filter.
I run the internet filter at my work and we use Squid and Dansguardian. Dansguardian rules as a filter since it does true content filter. This will also help you out by logging every site with the user, ip accessed from.
Most of all, be fair, upfront, and consistent in your enforcement of the rules.
nope, not kidding and no joke.
;)
I'm 18 and my entire life my parents tried to keep my computer out of my room.
first of all, computers and televisions are very different. cant recall the last time I was mindlessly staring at an IM or post such as this like I would be on a television.
Through the internet I learned how to debate, I learned about computers, I learned about diversity and its importance in our society. (something much more rare in our schools than you may like to think) Through the internet I learned politics, about science, about new music, about movements and about history etc...
but I suppose that I can see your point. I'd much rather my future child become a mindless, unaccepting, ignorant prep/jock to than to give them an invaluable tool for learning with which they can study and interact with others in privacy
We seldom regret saying too little but often regret saying too much.
I'd point out that neither Saddam Hussein nor the etherial virgins are particularly Islamic. The Christian analogues would be, say, Stalin and Hess toy trucks. Stalin's from a country that has some vague Christian tradition, and the Hess trucks sure seem to show up around Christmas, but we wouldn't exactly call either one a Christain icon.
First, I've had a computer with internet in my room since I was 13-14. No restrictions, no rules, but then again, I live in denmark where porn is not that big a deal. Here you can buy alcohol, cigarettes and (if I remember correctly) porn at 15. I just don't get what all the fuss is about. One piece of advice though: Don't let your kids lock their doors even if you do monitor for porn, or you will never ever see them again. Second, Don't you people have laptops? I see a lot of kids running around with wifi enabled laptops, which kinda negates the whole monitoring question, since, well how are you gonna monitor an ap you don't own?
Okay, lets get the self introduction out of the way: Im a ninteen year old college student at DePaul University, Chicago (I commute,) a Computer Science major with a minor in Japanese Studies, and am the oldest of four children (10/m, 11/f, 13/m).
I was the first in my family to get into computers. Although my parents initially fought against that damnable AOL (which I now know them to have been totally right, for completely different reasons,) they eventually caved and I had internet access.
To be honest, I looked at porn (and still do on occasion.) I like to think that Im not THAT screwed up because of it, but who knows, I post on slashdot after all ^_^;
But on to the point of my post: Im at the age where Im, for the most part, an adult, but still have a foot in the children`s years. My parents still dont know anything about computers, and due to my hobby (and major) my house has a fairly well developed network, including a custom router/firewall/squid.
Now, I dont view myself to be too old for some elderly sibbling teasing and blackmail. Lets just put this way, he doesnt look at the pron sights that much any more. They`re so funny the way they squirm when you mention the porn site that they visited earlier that day (which I, ahem, checked for, *cough* respectable portrail of the oppisite sex.)
--theKiyote
I'm typing this on the computer in my room now, which has been connected to the Internet for about a year.
Yes, when we first got the connection, I did look at porn (which my parents made very clear was A Bad Thing). Y'know what? I hated it -- it's frickin' *ugly*! Frankly, it turns me off -- and if I hadn't had the experience of trying it, I'd still think "ooh, porno, forbidden==cool." Not every kid is going to respond the same way, but most of us have to make mistakes before we truly learn something.
Oh, and believe me, if my mom walks into my room while I'm ordering her birthday gift off the 'Net, I'm minimizing that browser window real fast. Same with keeping the door open -- in the winter, the basement is *cold*, and my computer raises the temperature by several degrees. I get quite peeved if a family member leaves my room and forgets to shut the door behind them.
Also understand that your kids will only lie to you if you teach them to. If you ask your kid what they were doing on the computer, and they tell you the truth -- say, they were looking at porn -- punishing them for looking at porn is counter-productive. You aren't teaching them not to look at porn, you're teaching them *not* *to* *tell* *you* *the* *truth*. Next time you walk in the room and ask them that, you think they're going to tell you, "oh, yeah, I was looking at porn" and wait for the inevitable punishment? Unless they're *really* messed up, they'll lie to you, because that's the way to avoid punishment.
If you want to teach your kids to tell the truth, you have to provide them with some incentive. If the options are a) tell truth and get punished, or b) lie and maybe get away with it, *or* get punished if parents find out, any sensible kid is going to choose b), unless the lie-punishment is a *lot* worse than the truth-punishment. A truth-punishment should be a token ("we don't like this"), not as bad as a lie-punishment. Better yet, ask your child what they *thought* of what they saw, use it as an opportunity to talk with them about the issue; but don't preach -- listen to your kids! Preaching is only seen as a punishment.
For my family, however, letting each person have their own more-or-less private computer has been a blessing, because each of us has schoolwork or e-mail that needs to get done, and competing for one system would never work. To some extent you need to resist the knee-jerk parenting impulse ("Shame!"), but properly managed, private PCs and a shared Internet connection can be a godsend.
I would have thought this was obvious. If you worried about what your children are going to get up to on the net, don't let them do it in the privacy of their own rooms...
When I was younger, the PC was kept in the family room, so my folks could see what I was doing at all times. This also promoted communication, I was around people more so I talked to them. You stick the PC in the kids room, how often do you think they will come out to talk to you ?
I can honestly say, that no child of mine, under the age of 16 would ever have a PC in their room.
That being said, i do believe that once your children reach a certain age (around 15/16/17 depends on the child and the maturity they show). Then you need to start letting them live their own lives and make decisions/mistakes for themselves.
As other people have said you need to be open with your children about sexuality, drugs and alcohol, but again how open you are depends on how mature you child is.
Guiding your children is alot easier than imposing a lot of rules, because rules were always meant to be broken, and a child, no matter how 'good' they are will always push things to see what happens when they break.
I tend to think that evil lies in selfishness, rather than simply in harsh actions. Many of Saddam Hussein's actions were done to keep and strengthen his rule, at the expense of millions. Based on that, he appears to be quite selfish. Bin Laden seems somewhat idealistic. While his actions betray hatred and prejudice, he seems to be seeking revenge for others, not so much personal gain. Based on that, Saddam Hussein gives a greater appearance of selfishness, and hence evil, than Bin Laden.
No data, no cry
Yes, well, yes and no. Some people are honest enough to say they are doing the things you don't want to know they are doing and others are lying about it. i.e. I say I'm looking at pr0n when I'm not rather often because it's amusing in conversation... as for advice for setting these rules, risking cliche in a metaphor, you can't prevent one from getting a hold of a knife, but, you can teach them how, when, and where to use it. The same thing goes for all forms of information, including explicit content you just don't want them to have. Have some faith in your children.
I read the script, and I think it would help my character's motivation if he was on fire. -Bender
Run their web connections through a proxy, and log every site they access. Tell them before hand that you're recording every URL, and explain to them that if there are any sites they'd be embarrassed about you knowing they accessed, they'd best not navigate to them from their home computers. Then explain to them that you're open to discussing anything, and that if they are unsure how you will react to visiting certain sites, they should discuss it with you BEFORE, not AFTER, going to those sites. Also explain that you're willing to accept an explaination of "It was an accident; I didn't know it was a goatse.cx link!" God knows I've been to sites that embarrased even me...
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
Automatic filtering and even surveillance is not about taking responsibility; it's about enforcement of rules. Law enforcement already takes care of that part. Those of us who say parents need to take more responsibility don't want another layer of enforcement. We want parents to do what only parents can do.
It is precisely the negligent tactic of caring about your own duties under the law before caring about your child's well-being that is the cause of so many problems.
If you have an open discussion with trust, integrity, and mutual respect, then your child will come to you crying or asking for advice the first time they encounter something that may frighten or confuse them. If you filter and forbid, they will keep it to themselves for fear of being accused of having broken the rules. Take your pick.
I for one welcome our new SCOviet Russian overlords to whom all our base are belong.
sometimes people dont WANT to be with other people their age. CHILDREN ARE CRUEL. not to say that adults arent; but where a child could call another child ugly in a room full of their peers and get laughs, an adult would be hard pressed to find such a crowd. I know from personal exp. that there was a reason I stayed online instead of at school dances throughout high school. There was a reason I chose to learn online rather than go out and get drunk, high and STD filled like many others my age and there is a reason I, to this very day, strongly dislike my overprotective parents
We seldom regret saying too little but often regret saying too much.
I'm seeing a lot of posts saying:
:-(
So then I showed my child what this stuff was all about and now he/she understands and doesn't do it.
My question is what happens when the law intervenes - like say with a report from a nosey ISP - and finds that the parent was showing his kids porn, violence, etc. to educate then? How does that go down?
While I'm all for this method when my child eventually runs across stuff on the Internet I'm worried about running afoul of today's legal deathtraps for parents.
"Bah!" - Dogbert
What if they believed it was right to murder and rape? You just don't understand them.
individualized retirement accounts are evil now?
Well, I must say I could talk about a lot of different things here, or bitch about things I don't like what parents do. None the less I'm just going to give you my $0.02 as requested.
.... I bought a computer in my room. The idea was if I took the responsibility to get a job, earn $1500 and buy a computer, put it together, and maintain it then I could have a computer in my room... provided I did certain things such as, not allways tie up the phone line, do school work, etc.. If your really worried about your kids online, you should talk about the risk from giving out personal information and inform them of the dangers to downloading things or going into sites which show explicid material. I've lived through my parents devorce, which I must say was very hard (at age 15) and the things that made it easier where communication, my parents let my brother have my dad's car and didn't tell any neighbours so we were entrusted to tell our friends when we were ready to. I guess what I'm saying is communication, trust (both ways) are the most important things to build/work at. Start with strict rules, and when they show responsibility in respecting these rules then in time increase your distance and trust you instill in them. Also sometimes when a teenager is acting out a lot its because the rules are too strict or there being smoothered. Something I remember my principle telling a few of us in highschool was "We have a no hats rule, because sometimes teenagers need a rule to break, and thats one of the reasons rules like that exist"
.... how will you sheild them now? or is it their own fault now that there 18??
I first access another network via BBS (lol) and my parents knew I was on them, but they didn't know what I was doing all the time. They asked questions (IMPORTANT) but they didn't sit behind me the whole time I was there.
My mother has said a few things to try and protect me from making foolish mistakes online such as "looking at pictures of naked women under 18 is illegal". I didn't mind hearing stuff like that. I first got a computer in my room when
My Parents spent time telling me rights and wrongs repididly when I was younger, but as I grew up some things where just not mentioned so I could make decesions and I could make mistakes. The comment by the Parent who said "My House, my Electricity, my network, etc.." thats very true. When they turn 18, move out, get taken advantage of, become(get someone) pregnant, be introduced to drugs/alcohol, and freedom
I must say a PERFECT example of this is a girl I went to elmentary school with. She was so sheltered she had to wait until she was 16 to use the phone in a room without her parents. She was not allowed out on hallowen. Etc.. she had no rules to break, only strict rules to follow. So when she got into highschool she was introduced to drugs.. she got a chance to party and she went over board, got into weed (not a big deal ) however thats what got her pregnant.. and of course her parents FORCED her to have the baby, they secluded her from the world after she was 4-5months pregnant, and they FORCED her to give the baby up. Poor girl.
Communicate,
Love,
Build Trust / Trust
No, this is
Having to depend on their siblings will teach them faster than anything you can do. They may take a hit on their grades though.
Assuming you, the parent, are an average person living in the kind of environment with which I am familiar, ONE of the following is true:
1) You physically prevent your children from disobeying you on a 24x7 basis.
2) Your children will have the opportunity to disobey you.
If #1 is true, you are most likely an abusive freak and I hope you die soon. If # 2 is true (this is more likely), your children will be the ones making the right or wrong decisions at various times before they reach the legal age of adulthood. During those decision-making events, they either WILL choose what you would choose or they WILL NOT choose what you would choose. Your implicit goal is to ensure that they WILL choose what you would choose.
Methods for achieving your implicit goal (abusive freaks should have already stopped reading by now, hopefully due to cardiac arrest):
1) Brainwashing.
2) Intimidation.
3) Education.
Method #1 can be quite successful. Disgusting, but successful. If you are someone who has no objection to this kind of tactic, then by all means proceed with the cult indoctrination. We'll have the ATF visit you at Waco when the time comes.
Method #2 ceases to work past the legal age of adulthood unless you are willing to violate the law. If you are, then by all means proceed with the stalking and bullying. We need people like you for the 6 o'clock news so that newscasters can have good jobs.
Method #3 requires intelligence, diligence, and time. If you lack intelligence, there may be help available from other people or from the Internet. If you lack diligence, it might be worth developing it since you appear to be responsible for the care and development of a human being. If you lack time, try to use the same technique for making time that you used when you managed to conceive that human being. It only seems fair that you be the one to do this since none of the rest of us got to participate in the fun part.
Thanks.
I remeber when I first got on the internet. I was about 14 and we had just got AOL two weeks befor summer break. My mother worked all day and I had no borthers or sisters, so I was home alone all day. I remeber thouse first two weeks I took it easy... there was plunty to explore anyway. But man after school was out and mom was away; nothing but porn touched the screen for like eight hours a day. This continued for quite awhile, but eventualy even porn gets boring.
Now I'm 19 and no different from anyone else. I still look at porn, I still masterbate, and my palms arn't hairy at all. The point is of course, why do we all really fell a need to "protect" out children from the "nasties" on the net? Now I'm sure there are parents out there that'll say I don't know what I'm talking about becouse I don't have children, and that is a posability. But the "nasties" spawn from what humans seek. Why is there so much porn on the net? Becouse its profitable, and that shows that theirs a high demand for it. Its part of who we are as a society. (yes, even the stuff with Betty Sue under Mr. Ed)
Its much more important what our children (and everyone) thinks about what they saw, not the fact that they actualy saw it. And what we think about what we see is tought by the parents. Bring up a senseable child and they'll make sensable decitions.
See here.
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
The 70 virgins comment was a reference to the (I think) 27 virgins that Islam offers to people who martyr themselves in defence of the religion. This was the reward promised to suicide bombers (including the 9/11 hijackers).
On the other hand, Islam also forbids both suicide and the killing of non-combatants (women, children, the elderly, etc.), so I'd expect that the closest to the 27 virgins that these misguided souls are going to get in the Islamic afterlife would be a gaggle of demons poking their barbed tails up some very surprised butts.
As for Saddam not being evil:
WRT being evil, I'd say it's what would horrify 95% of the population, while most of the other 5% might not understand why it horrifies people, but they know it does. The evil are those who could care less. Now, the small percentage who are oblivious to the horror that their actions cause would qualify as evil for me. on the other hand, (the) most evil people are those who know that their actions horrify most people and embark on them for that reason.
Saddam fits firmly in the last group.
The argument over Saddam was not whether he was evil.. it was whether the US had the right to demand an invasion of Iraq on Bush's timetable -- especially when you consider that Saddam got much (if not most) of his WMD technology and equipment from the US (with US government assistance, even).
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
i dont agree with everything he said but it seems that the moderator just didnt liek parent poster's opinion and thus moderated him down.
Did you remember to body search your kid for his new Wi-Fi card? Odd that he never uses the home computer as much as he used to, isn't it?
Also, a parents responsibility for their kids' actions isn't black and white, it's grey. A kid shares some genetics/memetics with their parents, but outside influences and just plain fate play a much larger role. Then again, blaming parents is easier.
--
Power to the Peaceful
Why did we have to shoot them and Qusay's 15 year old son? Why not give them a trial? Everyone thinks that we're brutal people now. What's next, kill Saddam's wife too?
No, I think he's pushing the angle that Hussein had a purpose, a "let me make Iraq into something good, but MY way." No, his logic is faulty and he's clearly not a nice guy, but that's not the "true" evil the parent is talking about. Unless he's a sadist.
2. Encrypt your data.
In Mac OS X 10.3, try the new FileVault feature.
As far as Macs go, just use the ol' unix '.' trick, and Finder will be none the wiser (I think, I don't have a Mac to test this on).
In classic Mac OS, use a utility such as ResEdit, GetMoreInfo, or numerous others to set the Invisible flag. In OSX, you're correct that the Finder won't display files/folders named with a leading period; you can access a hidden folder by pressing Cmd-Shift-G and typing the path (beware that the path is saved for next time!), and hidden files can be found by adding "visible=all" as a search term in the Find File dialog.
5. Cover your tracks. Clear browser history. On Windows, clear the list of recently accessed documents. If you have root on a UNIX box, flush the logs.
Try the Reset Safari option under the application menu, if that's your browser of choice.
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
there are *very* few people in the world who will be able to connect hussein and islam in a favourable way with a straight face. the man never adhered to muslim faith, and merely adopted the facade to rally his people (which was not exactly a successful tactic as the muslim world saw it as transparent). it's widely accepted that his islamic face game was as phony as bush's cowboy.
I don't think he meant anything by it. I mean, he's the autopr0n guy! He's gotta be more open-minded than that :)
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
It was the comment on the virgins. I'm really getting sick and tired of people blowing that one single detail out of proportion. Do you really think a person commits acts like those just so they can get women in heaven? No, its a complicated issue, but people only want to hear about is sex nowadays.
"What gets me is that the same idiots who make snide remarks like "you want to have your kid live in a cage until they're 18?" are the same asshats who complain it's the parent's fault when a child misuses the Internet, resulting a child's abuse or even death."
Oh so it is either black or white, right or wrong, do this or do that? Grey areas don't exist in your world? If you teach your child well and treat them like a friend and not some serf or slave, then that child will come to you for anything. When that child wants some privacy, then give it to them. By watching the child's every move because you don't trust them or or don't think they know any better will only make things worse. Imagine being the kid for once. A kid doesn't want a critic or a dictator, they want a friend. You can have it both ways. Teach your child well and treat them like a good friend that needs guidance, not a human programmer, and the child will grow up fine. I hope you never have kids. Who here is the "idiot" or "asshat"? I believe it is you. If and when you do have children, they will agree.
Question everything.
I'm 15-year-old girl and I often find that because, stereotypically, younger people understand new technology better, its been a lot harder for my mum to keep tabs on my sister and my internet use.
She used to try password protect the browser, or set up passwords for logging in. But we knew our shit and found holes around the passwords all the time -- whether that involved fiddling with the registry or finding the piece of paper where she wrote our internet accounts password.
She tried this only so many times before she gave up.
She tried to read our chat logs, and when we realised what she was doing, we p/w protected the files.
And then recently my sister was fishing through our internet history and found that our own MOTHER had been surfing porn sites. Weird fetish ones. Involving old men.
And when our mother tried to tell us that the sites just "popped up", we pointed to the google searches she had made.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that sometimes the kids end up monitoring the parents. I don't expect this to happen so much in the future, but it happens now.
I think in the future we'll just view the internet as an alternative to tv. When my mum was little she used to get in trouble for watching television in the morning. Nowadays no one cares if you watch it in the morning. At home we aren't really allowed to go on the net in the morning, but I can expect it to be fine when I have my own kids. The technology won't be so new and scary. Parents won't get scared by reading over-hyped newspaper articles, they will have experience to go by on.
I *do* think that putting the computer in a bedroom is a bad idea. Its a lot easier to stay on the net till 3am when it is in your room. But do make sure you put the computer somewhere else where they have privacy. Your kids are people too. People don't like their personal lives being exposed to the authorities.
If you are scared your kids are going to be doing something they should not, try to get them to understand what is 'right' and 'wrong' and why so. Get them to have morals and they will feel bad when they do the wrong thing. Some of the most 'wild' kids I know my age have overly strict parents. They get joy from doing what they're not supposed to be because it makes them feel in control. If you can leave your kids in control and still make them understand you make your rules for a reason (to guide them and not just to be a complete and utter fascist).
Oh and btw, most kids over 11 can tell if they are talking to a pedophile or not. There is an obvious difference between a teenager and an adult trying to impersonate a teenager.
I read a few posts about parent's thinking they have the right to read emails between their kids and their sweethearts. I disagree. As long as they are not supposed to read my snail mail, I don't believe they are allowed to read my email.
If you can't trust what your kids are doing, you seriously need to work on building some trust. I know that if my father saw me reading an email and asked me what it was about, I'd let him read it. Because I could see he needed confirmation I wasn't doing something I wasn't meant to be. Then again, if that email had 'naughty' things in there, my dad would just accept it as a growing up thing. I'm a teenager. He will not blow things out of proportion because of a few titties on the screen.
But if he tried snooping while I wasn't looking, I'd tell him where to shove it. Give your kids the same respect you want from them. As I said before, they might be little people, but they are still people. A bit more innocent maybe. But its only a matter of time before they lose their innocence. You should try cushion their fall as much as possible. Don't keep them in a bubble until they move out. They won't know how to deal with the world. Allow them to grow 'streetwise' so they aren't as likely to be screwed over in early adulthood.
This was a bit 'all over the place', sorry about that.
Oh quit painting Billions with the brush of something specific. Why don't you say that the TURKS are evil?
Islam != Turkey.
I generally don't like a lot of what I hear about Turkey, but how are you going to equate that with Islam?
Do you really want to say that an entire world religion is evil? What in the religion itself is evil? That means, what in the Quran or Sunnah or Seerah? If you hate Turks, that's one thing, but if you hate Islam, then you better have a better reason than just hating Turks.
I laugh at this submission. It reminds me of how my parents took my Macintosh away because I used it 'too much'. I went into their room and removed the guts of the computer and reassembled it on plywood...then I hid it under a piece of furniture in my room. I would shut the door and use the computer after they went to bed. I taught myself everything I could about computers with descenting parents around. All the homework I didnt do hasnt had an impact on me. The posh private schooling was a waste of time and money. I ended up not going to college and starting a dot.com. I've been retired for a couple of years and spend much of my free time teaching my family and friends how to use computers.
Sure, I spent time looking at naked women online. I spent time pirating software. I spent time playing video games. All of these 'bad things' are very educational about society, technology, and the future of computers. To shield your children from this is merely delaying the inevitable. Since I more or less had free reign of my computer (my parents would often say, "What's the internet again?") I soon found these activities unfullfilling and I became more interested in Photoshop, digital imaging, software programming, hardware programming, web design, etc.
Instead of shielding our children from the negative aspects of society, we need to change US society itself. I often think of how my European friends are shocked by the violence in our media and the juveneille treatment of sex, nudity, women, and gays. The US is a very conservative and repressed nation. A lot of problems would solved if our media were less restricted and if our values were less conservative. How often is the subject matter in the media devoted to themes such as sharing, giving, love, loyalty? Almost never. How about murder/violence, deceit, tabloid news, unhealthy portrayals of sex/sexual insecurity, theft/dishonesty? Almost always. These themes have a direct impact on society e.g. women getting breast implants, sexually insecure people getting SUVs, the desire to own a gun/weapon, the desire to hunt and kill, the desire for a career/golden hand cuffs, consumerism, etc.
After I got a Macintosh, I stopped watching TV entirely except for The Simpsons. The internet really opened my eyes in ways that TV never could. I havent watched TV for ten years, nor have I owned one for 6 years.
Go ahead, restrict the use of the computer, you are just perpetuating U.S. society's problems.
Remove all computers and TVs from their rooms! Get them out playing with other kids face to face, playing sport, any sort of "real" interaction with other people. They can choose to be Geeks when they're older, (and have developed good social skills) at least give them a start in life without a pasty pale fat body. Does everyone look at naughty things on the Net? I suspect a high proportion of men do - let's face it if we see a sexy girl on the street we look sneekily so our better halves don't catch us. I'm sure some women do too but maybe not so many. For the majority it's just natural interest in the opposite sex. Sure they'll be a few dangerous people but they'd exist anyway.
Mother
Tell your children not to walk my way
Tell your children not to hear my words
What they mean
What they say
Mother
Mother
Can you keep them in the dark for life
Can you hide them from the waiting world
Oh mother
Father
Gonna take your daughter out tonight
Gonna show her my world
Oh father
Not about to see your light
But if you wanna find hell with me
I can show you what it's like
Till you're bleeding
Not about to see your light
And if you wanna find hell with me
I can show you what it's like
Mother
Tell your children NOT to hold my hand
Tell your children not to understand
Oh mother
Father
Do you wanna bang heads with me
Do you wanna feel everything
Oh father
Not about to see your light
And if you wanna find hell with me
I can show you what it's like
Till you're bleeding
Not about to see your light
And if you wanna find hell with me
I can show you what it's like
Yea
Not about to see your light
But if you wanna find hell with me
I can show you what it's like
Till you're bleeding
Not about to see your light
And if you wanna find hell with me
I can show you what it's like
Mother
Yea
Its not called self delusion. Its called 'the winners get to write history'. Not to excuse anyone of their heinous acts that you mentioned.
how could you let your daughter play a game as sub-par as diablo 2?
I guess you're right. We sold him the tech so we should have just let him be.
I mean asking slashdot for legal advice is bad enough.
Asking slashdot for parenting advice is amazingly funny.
Next up, dating advice.
There are a couple things that I have observed being 15 in this durn strange confangled new age of interwebbing goatseology.
First, never make rules you cannot enforce. Further, never make rules that you do not follow yourself. Set a good example for your child by doing, not by saying. If you don't, you will have lost all respect from your child. I originally got access to the internet for my 8th birthday. Not many year after this, even with conventional blocking software and the like (goes to show you how ineffective these were), I found my way into the Right Light District of the internet. At the time I was not light on my feet, so obviously within a time my father found out what I was surfing around in.
What he DID do right was to calmly explain why he did not want me looking at it, stating his principles, he never blew up in my face. What he DIDN'T do right was not hold to his own proclaimed principles. Eventually I found that he was surfing pornography, and I suddenly lost all respect for his rules about the internet, and much of my respect for him. So now we're equals, he just doesn't know it. Build a respect base with your children, don't be a hypocrit.
Second, the child has to learn responsability for their actions. Most of this is common sense that your child must learn on their own, but unfortunately common sense isn't all that common. Imagine these crazy situations where a minor is giving out information like it's candy, and doesn't care at all about meeting up with someone that he or she doesn't know over the internet. Some kids just have to learn to not be stupid.
Its called trust. You have it for your kids for sometihng as simple as internet access and they will have trust in you for a lot more greater things.
Sometimes I wish you could mod a post +6 so everyone would see it as soon as the page loaded. I am 20 and what you wrote would be 90% true if you replaced my name with your own. I did build the computers, I own all the computers in the gouse, I host the parents email! And I look at porn. So what.
It's self delusion. Some of the guys I mentioned did win. So what?
Excellent. I agree. Good writing.
I'm a grown adult, sharing an apartment with someone I occasionally have sex with. I still reflexively hide personal discussions when she comes into my room, switch to 'safer' webpage if I'm looking at something weird... She does the same, really. And neither of us gets offended by it.
Privacy is good.
Do you also insist that every telephone conversation your kids have be in the same room with you? That you be able to read their diary at any moment?
egypt urnash minimal art.
Now the flipside.
One of friends had parents that were extremely strict. Sometimes I think he made them out to be stricter than they really were, but they were strict nonetheless. He wasn't allowed to see PG-13 movies until he was 16, and the site had to pass the muster of the opinions that were presented on the American Bishops Movie Review site or something like that. He couldn't stay out past 10PM any nite of the week. His parents didn't trust him at all. And in a way, rightly so. This guy lies like none I've ever seen. He's lied to my face, and I knew he was lying when he would try to pass off his bullshit. I became extremely good and knowing what he said was wrong, and decipherying exactly what the truth was from his lies. Needless to say, this individual is not someone I associate with anymore due to the fact that his lies have become more than they are worth, aside from the fact that his lies have hurt people that I care about.
It's almost a vicious circle. If you don't trust your kids, and you enforce extermely strict rules, they will, unquestionably, break them and lie about breaking them. You as a parent know they are lying, so you will squeeze tighter, and they will lie more.
I agree with the way my mom did it. She kept rules and order (she was a H.S. teacher for crying-out-loud). But, she also made sure we understood them, and she gave us freedom. She taught us right from wrong. She never took the "do as i say, not as i do" approach. People are afraid of disciplining their children for fear that they will turn out to be these hellraisers. I feel that the major problem is that people just aren't being parents to their children. If you instill good morals in your children, trust them, yet at the same time have rules and regulations, you will be just fine.
I have thought about the whole firewall, proxy thing for when I have kids. I think that putting the computer in a public place is the very first step. Heck, I think it'd be more fun that way when I play Doom XIII against my kids and I can give em a hard time from across the room. Do i intend on setting up a firewall and blocking certain websites, along with employing logging. Aboslutely. It's more about the approach you take to it than the fact you are doing it that will make the difference. As previous individuals have mentioned, if you discuss the matters with them instead of instantly grounding them or yelling at them, you will not have problems. But, as others have also mentioned, being that I own the connection, anything and everything downloaded, etc., comes back to me. I'd be the one in trouble . If my kid looks up underage pr0n, we've got a serious issue on my hands if the FBI comes a'knockin. Likewise, I'll restrict MP3'z and Warez. It just isn't worth the possible risk to me.
I control the router. I read the logs. When they turn 18, if they are still living in my house, we'll discuss it. Until then, what I say goes.
You sound a lot like my father, though the issue of computers never came up, since I turned 18 in 1972.
I haven't spoken to him in over 30 years. Perhaps you regard this as an example of successful parenting.
Perhaps you'll succeed equally well with your kids.
Tech Public Policy stuff
The server allows us through a google search to get to p0rn
but blocks.mac
Subduction leads to orogeny
When I was growing up, and still to this day, me and my parents don't have a great relationship. I fall into the camp a lot of people mention-me and my parents don't communicate much, as they tend to use information I give them to punish me. My parents were also very overprotective. Sex was just not spoken about, etc. Well, realising you're gay is mind boggling for a 12 year old. Who do you talk with? I know I thought everyone would hate me. I turned to the internet-did searching, talked to people online, etc. I used the Internet as a support group. I learned how to come out to people in person. This was not something I would even dream of discussing with my parents. (though that's another issue entirely)
Anyway, if my parents had logged my internet traffic, I would not have read the information I had, chatted in the newsgroups I had, etc. Without the support of the Internet community with what I was going through, I'd say it's certainly plausable that I would not be alive today.
Filtering doesn't work either. The kids will still find porn. They will get it from their friends, etc. I know I've bought younger friends porn magazines before, it's no big deal. Out of all my friends, EVERYONE whose parents forbids it looks at porn. My friends whose parents don't care if they look at porn, some of them do look at porn, but some don't. Doesn't seem like forbidding them will do much good. All forbidding them to look at porn will teach them they need to lean how to hack dad's linux box and clear logs, if that.
Growing up is difficult. There are some things that are too embarassing for a teenager to discuss with their parents-the Internet is really useful for these. If you've allowed children to learn from their mistakes, rather than constantly protecting them, they will know how to make smart decisions, what to do and what not to do. You can't protect them forever-there's nothing magical about turning 18. Only making mistakes and learning from them will allow them to grow up.
Along the same lines, as soon as I went off to college, I tried pot, got drunk, etc. Both things I had never done before. They were amusing a few times, then got old, and that was basically the end of them. All my parent's years of protection did nothing-I had to try it on my own and learn from it.
Basically though, if you have a teenage male, it's about 99% certain he will look at porn, be it at your house or at a friends, so just don't even bother trying to restrict his internet connection and it's best for everyone.
Somehow you missed the obvious thing a good parent would do: explain to their children that there is bad stuff out there. Teach them why it is bad. Tell them you trust them not to do it.
In short, be a parent.
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
--Aristotle
You do realize that a lot of what you don't like about Turkey is Islam, don't you? Christian Turks are called Greeks or Armenians.
- more like a big brother.
The power of Christ compiles you!
Can't we all just learn to get along?
It is true that there are surely some negative things on the internet, as well as positive. If we are to expand our knowledge and open our minds to certain things, we need to be exposed to them. The internet is one of many tools for that exposure.
It is true that some children and teenagers are much too immature to properly use their access to the internet, but there are also some who would benefit from it. It would be wrong to disallow all children indiscrimately, regardless of age, sex, maturity, and responsibility.
It may or may not be the right of a parent to pry, but trusting the child will only help the child trust you more. If you are going to have certain rules, at least discuss them with a child, and maybe even make a compromise. Peace treaties must be signed by both parties involved.
By the same token, you shouldn't assume that only Islam rewards people with virgins in heaven, etc.
Get off my launchpad!
Except that you can argue that you only help to create or continue that situation if you *pay* for your porn. Think about it.. By viewing free porn, in what specific way do you support this system? They're not getting money from you... hell, they're not getting anything from you at all. You're in no way responsible or supportive of the situation of the porn industry.
:)
Viewing internet porn has no impact on anyone at all. *Paying* for porn does. But we all know that nobody on the internet pays for porn unless they're gullible..
.. then it will happen as with me. I was drinking beer and painting grafitti at the age of 14, I was smoking cannabis at the age of 15, I was stealing cars and breaking into houses at the age of 16, and by the age of 17 I got into UNIX and C programming. Now by age of 27 I'm a highly paid UNIX System Engineer and C/C++/Java programmer working on alot of OSS projects, with a big house, a lovley wife and soon my own kids. Oh how mysterious ways life can turn out..
Honestly, I have had unhindered private internet access since before I was 14 (am now 21), and I don't think I turned out that bad. I now run several internet-based projects (four on sourceforge, and two running on a server which I admin myself), have friends all over the world, etc. Porn? Yeah, I looked at porn. I'll admit it. Did it ever do anything to me? Any lasting psychological impacts? I don't think so. I think the women I know would tell you that I'm not any sort of sex-crazed pervert.
So, here's a thought: Maybe it isn't the end of the world if your kids see the internet for what it is. By the time they are teenagers, I think it is time to let them start figuring things out for themselves rather than being sheltered from the world. The internet really isn't that bad anyway. There are certainly worse things they could be doing out on the streets.
I'm gonna go call up my parents and thank them for not being ruthless dictators when it came to my privacy. They basically let me do whatever I wanted and I turned out well adjusted. I mean, they trusted me so much that I have to lie and tell them I smoke just so I could get the yelling that I missed growing up. Geez, monitoring your kids access to the internet. I didn't even think someone on Slashdot would even think about it, but looking at the comments seems to be a pretty standard thing.
Don't trust a bull's horn, a doberman's tooth, a runaway horse or me.
Why did we have to shoot them and Qusay's 15 year old son? Why not give them a trial?
...Qusay's 15 year old son... Everyone thinks that we're brutal people now. What's next, kill Saddam's wife too?
Rather than say gassing them and then giving them a trial? Well, Uday and Qusay didn't deserve the dignity of a trial or the dignified execution that would surely follow. They deserved every one of the dozens of rounds of ammunition they received and much more. That's simply justice.
American soldiers didn't search out Qusay's son and shoot him. He was involved in the same struggle in which Uday and Qusay were killed. He was shooting at soldiers after his father was killed. Your point about Saddam's wife is therefore not valid. As for people thinking that we're brutal people, they just don't know what really happened.
I'm currently 15 and have always been allowed to do whatever I want to do on the internet. This has lead me to finding out about linux and setting up our home network, programming small games and other such things. Yes, my grades have suffered for it, but because of it I'm unique. not just another get-the-best-grades-possible drone.
Frequent masturbation is imperative to any teenager's mental health. Don't block sites because you think your 15 year old can't handle porn. Its what we 15 year olds do, we look at porn and jerk off.
Having an open door rule isn't nice, why do you have that anyway? it seems to me that it would only breed distrust.
I have a computer in my room and work with computers alot. my parents trust me, as without me they would have a hard time setting up our home network and getting it to run with out me. that has built a sense of trust, and that is the same trust that extends to my other syblings.
my mother used to be a teacher where they had a proxy set up that blocked inapproprate sites, and she didn't like it; if a student did a search on breast cancer, it would block most of the sites related to breast cancer. It was a high school.
plus, knowing what I know about computers, not only would the trust level go down, but I would figure someway arround it.
andrewjj20
I'm 19 now, and my parents got a Macintosh LCsomething for me when they first came out, and I used to store porn on it, all sorts of stuff. My parents didnt know the difference between a computer and a TV then. Now that im older, they dont know what I do online or anything. I setup the router, I have the password, I have the root passwords to all my Mac OS X and Linux boxes, and I lock my workstations with Windows XP, and I lock the screen with KDE. My parents tried to install that Netnanny shit on my computer one time. Too bad I formatted the next day. As for hiding porn on my SE/30, just name the folder Disk Copy 6.4.4(which never existed) and change the icon to that of the Extensions folder, and change the icons of the JPEG's to the icons of the General Settings control panel, and BAM! your parents wont know a thing. Also, keep your workstations locked, and your screensaver passworded. If your kid knows ALOT about computers, then they WILL find porn. When I was like 11, I was getting porno from friends on floppys(pun not intended, :P), and my parents knew nothing. Whatever parents do, kids will evade. Even to this day, my parents know nothing of what I do online, and since I control the router(and logs), they will never know anything.
Until George Bush inserted into the national dialog. To me, "Evil" was some existential thing that only something supernatural could poses. People were only "Misguided" or "greedy" or "vengeful" or "immoral", etc. I have started using the word once in awhile to refer to people who poses many of those qualities, but to me recently it really is associated with Muslim Terrorists. I was kind of trying to insult Bush and the Neocons in the same breath, but it was a little obtuse :P
Also, while I know that we should be all inclusive and culturally sensitive, do you really think I could run AP from Saudi Arabia? Even the less psycho implementations of Islam are hard on women and repressive, and I do that that's somewhat wrong. I'm sure there are lots of Muslims who are not interested in stifling others, but they seem to be in the minority.
But I do believe that if Islam fits the definition of "evil" then Christianity does as well...
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Your biggest problem is sorting through the "... and I turned out OK" posts.
Really. With a few exceptions, people tend to justify whatever they do. If they didn't, they'd feel bad. And while some people do walk around in self-loathing from realizing everything they do wrong (or even blaming MORE on themselves), most people will subconsciously do just about anything to keep from feeling like they're doing wrong.
So, the guy who doesn't look at porn will say he turned out alright. The guy that looks at bikini pictures will say "I turned out alright, I don't look at naked pictures." The guy who looks at porn will say "But I turned out alright, I don't do {X}." The guy that's been screwed up will say "and I turned out alright, it's not like I'm doing {X}". And the guy who's been completely messed up will say that he's just living an alternative lifestyle, and that he's not hurting anyone else.
So, basing your decision on the "and I turned out alright" from some guy on the Internet is about as stupid as you can get. You're their parent, you (and they) will bear the consequences of your bad choices. If I were you, I'd start by studying up on child psychology and development, for starters. Understanding why kids do what they do will help you more than anything else.
steve
Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
There's darker moments in Anglo-Saxon history. I wouldn't say Hussein is misunderstood, but that he justifies his own actions. We, at this point of our civilization find his actions to be unjustifiable. But, take a look in our history of civilization and you'll see large moments in time that Hussein would fit right in. Iraq is simply in a different time civilization wise (don't let the modern trappings of materialism distract you), and eventually they will advance to the next stage. Now that we're the catalyst for their advancement, I sincerely hope they're able to move on to the next stage, but I fear they won't be and they'll actually go backwards, but I've been wrong before.
As for using weapons of mass destruction on his own people, the people were rebels attempting a coup. The US and other governments have done similar (see Waco, TX and the Civil War), and the US is confirmed to have used military and civilian personnel for testing of chemical and radioactive substances.
In a democratic government (of which both the US and Britain are), there are no civilians. Though you may choose to not carry a gun, the bottom line is that we elected our leaders. Therefore, we are responsible for their actions. Since bin Laden (or the IRA) has no hope of defeating a conventional military, their only way of fighting is to convince the people ultimately in charge of that military that it's not worth it. Electing a leader and designating the most well equipped, trained and funded among us to be our soldiers neither absolves us of their actions nor protects us from retribution.
Ultimately, it is we the people that dictate policy and our government - and that the enemy has a conflict with...why shouldn't they attack us? Because we have a mighty miltary force who we'd rather them attack?
Saddam gassed the Kurds, and he is a Sunni. I'm so tired of people saying "He gassed his own people" wa wa. I mean they were in the middle of uprising or whatever.
Not that I'm defending Saddam, but lets get our terminology straight here.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Bring 'em on!
W00t!
when my parents first gave me a computer with net access in my room ill admit first thing I did was look at porn but a month later I saw I was the only one that had net access in ther own room. So I ask my mom why I was aloud to havenet acess in my room she said that she trusted me....thats when I stoped looking at all the porn and stuff..I was in awe. The pros of this were that when I was aloud unfilter acess to the web I grew up quickly I was able to learn more about myself then I would have ever been able to if I had been locked down. *Slashdot.org is consited a hacking web site by my girl friends filter* I owe my intrest in Linux and Apache to my Free Internet.
Linux is like living in a teepee. No Windows, no Gates, Apache in house.
I understand that, as a parent, it's really hard to deal with the fact that your kids are developing hormones and may like to look at porn. The bigger, more legitimate worry is that they might start joining chat rooms and talking with people that might harm them.
As for the first item, I'd suggest you get over it. It's natural for kids to want to look at porn, and forbidding them isn't going to stop them from looking at it, it simply means they'll look for another way you simply don't know about, or go over to their friend's house and do it there.
As for the second point, simply explain to your kids that the same rules that apply to not taking rides from strangers applies to the Internet as well, and that they aren't to be giving out their personal information, etc.
Also, as far as surfing the internet goes, remember: if they're at home entertaining themeselves on the internet, at least they're not out doing other things that are guaranteed to do them physical harm (insert horrible mental image here.) Looking at sex is entirely different than having it.
My parents used to come down hard on my brother for using the internet to surf for porn, but I pointed out the very same things to them. He became angry and rebellious, but instead of stopping, simply found other routes, just as I predicted. He even went so far as to take the family car joy-riding a couple of times, which got him into worse trouble.
My parents finally decided to try things the other way. They sat him down, explained what their concerns were to him, and then - wonder of wonders - told him that they'd decided to trust him with the responsibility as long as he promised to be careful. They let him take the car out.
My parents found out later that, as he was filling the car up with gas, he proudly told the store clerk that he had the coolest parents in the world. And he did his best to not abuse their trust from that day on - because they treated him like an adult.
"Give a man fire, and he'll be warm for a day; set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life
Would you consider the Bombing of Hiroshima to be terrorism? You could say we weren't 'deliberately' killing civilians, but surely you wouldn't argue that we didn't know a fuck of a lot of innocent people would die if we nuked a city. Or do you take the Israeli view that it doesn't matter if civilians die as long as you were trying to kill someone else and they just happened to be in your way?
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
for a parent to think that he/she can control the behaviours of their teen kids is to be most niaive! its a useless, even counterproductive, mis-adventure. Far better to keep dialogues open rather than to delude yourself and to unwittingly encourage your kids to be dishonest. If you had 'perfect results' , would you really believe it??
"There are 11 kinds of people: those who know binary, those who don't, and those who could not care less!"
You don't need all these new fangled ideas to stop them browsing porn. Just give them a 28kbps modem, and let them at it. They'll soon get sick of waiting for crap to download and go out and find real people.
mogorific carpentry experiments
most importantly- cencorship never protects as well as careful teaching ...im not going to tell you how to parent, but...
but the fact that you dont trust them is incredibly disturbing. even more disturbing is that you have to ask other people their rules... you are esentially asking how others control their kids, which to me indicates that you cant do it on your own (ie they are out of control)
please take the time to discuss computer use with your kids, calmly, rationally, and just take some time to talk to them. dont just tell them what you dont want them to do, but also why and discuss their thoughts about it. if they dont want to talk, thats fine, dont make them, forcing makes things worse. finally, give them alternatives if you are that paranoid about what they do on the internet.
i have been using the internet uncensored for 10 years now, since i was 10 years old... and i turned out fine, because my parents educated and discussed with me instead of censored me
Spy on the little shits.
Or, DON'T FUCKING ALOW IT!
Wow, I should not post when knackered.
I must say I couldn't agree more.
My children are relatively grown up now (21 and 18) and I have only had internet access for them for the past 4 years or so - so the issue has never really arisen. I have no idea whether they have ever visited porn sites, but I would suspect its un-likely - but even if they had, so what.
The thing that worried me the most was with the youngest (daughter) and chat rooms. We explained the danger - but after that let her get on with it.
The important thing was, that we were always around for advice. As a result, both offspring are able to use the internet as a research tool, feel reasonably relaxed about buying things when appropriate through the net, and use instant messaging as a tool (the other evening I was conversing with my daughter 250 miles away at university about an experiment she had been doing with strain guages and whetstone bridges)
I've always found it to be very strange when people talk about wanting to protect children from certain kinds of things, like porn for example, or violent movies, or "bad" words especially. When I was growing up I never could figure out exactly what it was that I was being protected from. I did of course see and hear everything that I was supposed to be shielded from. Since I'm a human being and not a walking tape recorder I was no more affected by it than an older person would be.
Now that I'm in my 30's I've come to realize that the motivation that drives parents and society itself to engage in information control and censorship is not that any young people will be harmed by the things we hide from them, but that we are somehow uncomfortable with the idea of them seeing certain things. The whole protection bit is just a post-hoc justification.
The truth is that surfing the web is about as safe an activity as can be imagined. The real dangers lie outside in the real world, not in cyberspace. Now to be fair there are predators online, both sexual and financial. But if you haven't seen to it that your kid is street smart enough to identify and avoid them then you're just a piss-poor parent.
If you feel uncomfortable about the idea that your children might see certain things online then maybe you should investigate why you feel that way, because it sure as hell isn't because they're going to be damaged in some way from seeing it. A person would have to be force-fed something on a continual basis for an extended period for it to have an effect upon them.
Young people are human beings, not tape recorders and not pets with the power of speech. Their view of the world is formed from the conclusions they reach based upon the sum total of their experiences. The only real difference is in how much experience they have to draw from. By the time they are old enough to know how to use a computer, the basic nature of who they are is already in place. By the time they're teenagers they're basically as grown as someone can be without having been out on their own. There is not special transformation which takes place on the eve of their 18th (or 21st, or you name it) birthday whereby they are suddenly transformed from being an malleable infant into a mature adult.
I'm starting to ramble here. Really what I'm trying to say is that there isn't anything you need to protect your children from seeing or hearing because none of it is going to affect them in any special way. Also it isn't like you can protect them from the things you don't want them to find out about unless you lock them in a closet, and if you think that is a good idea please get psychiatric help soon.
Childhood is more of a cultural construct than anything else, at least how childhood is understood in our culture. The lies and deceit that children have to deal with is nothing short of criminal. I don't know about you, but I didn't much like being lied to when I was a kid. What made it worse is that the lies that are told are so pathetically transparent that I'm amazed anyone is fooled. I kept thinking that there must be something I was missing, some piece in the puzzle that would make the things I was being told make sense. It wasn't until I realized that most people were idiots that I understood that the way children are treated is simply an extension of that stupidity.
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
If someone wanted to take naked pictures of me, it would make me feel pretty fucking good. But that's beside the point.
The point is, people choose to be in those images. A lot of times, they look like they are having a lot of fun. Believe it or not, but some people actually like having other people appreciate the way they look. Some women enjoy the power it gives them. And, shock of shocks, some women enjoy sex and what's more, some women actually are sexually aroused by posing naked!!!!!. Hard to believe I know.
But anyway, lets take your logical assertion to the extreme. What you are saying, is that paying people to do something that harms them in some way is evil. Well then doesn't that the entire US Military totally evil? I mean, I'd much rather be objectified then dead.
Hmm... reading the rest of your post, you might agree with me. But that still doesn't change the fact that all of the women in porn are there because they chose to be, and while some may feel dirty, most don't.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
"Parents, once you're past making the huge mistake of actually letting the kids have computers in their rooms, what's a reasonable set of guidlines?"
Once you're past? If you're so damn worried about what your kids are getting up to on the net, take the PCs out. You can you know; just because you put them there, doesn't mean you can't take them out. A 15 year old boy with a computer in his room is going to look at porn. Weren't you at that age, through any means possible? Plus, you can try to stop him, trust me on this one, that will just make him more determined and resourceful. Start checking the history and he'll start browsing newsgroups. And trust me here - you definately don't want him doing that. So if it bothers you that he is doing that (and he IS) take them out. Simple, you're still the boss. If you can't bring yourself to stand up to your kids, and cave in, think about adopting out. But ultimately a little porn isn't going to hurt him.
Did it really scar you for life?
Everyone here pretty much supports the "leave them alone, let them learn" concept - which I also support...
But just one thought - We're all nerds! We're all SMART! We have been smart since, well, shit, we were born smart... Inquisitive about everything forever, and can handle what we learn (OK, there was that one incident with the chemistry set, but ummm, I've said too much already).
What are your thoughts when your kid is a MORON? What would you think then? And I don't mean some geeky moron, I mean a true moron... just doesn't get it... can't handle anything sort of thing... The kind of kid that you dread ever having had... The kind of fucking idiot that you just KNOW will be causing you some kind of grief until the day you die... (maybe even longer)...
Saddam was delusional to the end. Not insane, but really more the way Bush is. He was (by choice) surrounded by Yes-men, and he avoided thinking about the negatives. It worked pretty well until he went up against another group of self-deluding morons with a bigger army. I don't believe that Saddam thought he was evil. He thought he was doing what he needed to to unite a racially and ethnically and religiously divided nation. He didn't know what he was doing was wrong, and he didn't know it wouldn't work.
George Bernard Shaw, IIRC said "The rational man adapts to the world, the irrational man tries to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress is dependant on irrational men". I used to love that quote. But Saddam and Bush are both irrational, and they have both changed the world. I don't know if I would call it progress.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
However, according to the dictionary, "Evil" is 1. the quality of being morally bad or wrong; 2. that which causes harm or misfortune. Definition 1 gives people plenty of scope as morality is subjective. Definition 2 however makes it plain that SH is evil, OBL is evil, GWB is evil, the IRA are evil, Blair is evil, Capitalism is evil, the war on (drugs|terror) is evil etc. You and I are also evil from time to time.
Pornography, in its modern sense, while not evil per se, is an evil, exploitative industry where real and lasting harm is often perpetuated against people who, for reasons of ignorance, manipulability, or plain poverty, find themselves in the hands of some very evil men. By funding it through the purchase of pornographic material, you become evil. Much as you become evil by buying Nike shoes, or McDonalds 'burgers' and thus funding the evil that they do. You make the choice to fund these evils, and thus become evil yourself. misery loves the company.
my (euro)0.017 (love that sliding dollar)
I used to have a better sig than this, but I got tired of it
Go move to Saudi Arabia then. You might like it better over there.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Judging from the number of posts on this topic, I'd say that there's nothing like the great American passtime of meddling in other peoples' home lives. It's great to know that we all know how to raise other people's children.
O new art woe are we.
Household rules need to be followed by everybody, but a lot of parents make a mistake of laying down all kinds of rules for their kids to follow, but fraglently violate those rules themselves. i.e. telling your 16 year old that she will never see 17 if you catch her drinking beer or smoking, while you have one every day while you get off work and smoke two packs a day.
If you can snoop on their internet activities, they should be able to snoop on yours. After all, they need to be certain that their dad isn't a tax evading child molester from the 70's.
Might I suggest suspending the account. Making them reconfigure everything after their punishment is a sure way to teach them to hack root and circumvent you =P
Well, even if you claim that porn is a sin, does that make it evil? I thought the whole point of the christian church was forgiveness? To me, an act that is evil is one that cannot be forgiven, at the least.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
"Evil" isn't a matter of "spin." We can discuss whether or not Bush is incompetent, ill-advised, or just acting from a point of view that many find disagreeable. There are certainly those who think he IS evil, and we could probably have an interesting debate on the subject of evil, how evil Bush is, whether he's more or less evil than Clinton, and how their evil might (or does) manifest.
But with Hussein, we're talking about a man whose career as Iraqi leader began with a purge of his party -- a no-kidding Stalinist purge, where backing the wrong horse meant you were immediately and messily dead. (Note that Hussein not only did not hide this, he made sure that everyone KNEW about it.) Just about every career high point for him points to a man who is evil by any definition of the word. The only exception I can think of -- a career high point, that is, where some might *not* define him as evil -- is his attack on Iran, where there was no shortage of folks who considered it a greater good.And that's just looking at situations that are readily acknowledged and well-reported - I don't have to look at the motivations for setting 600 Kuwaiti oil wells ablaze to recognize that it was an evil act.
I could, perhaps, be convinced that Saddam was doing his best to unify three separate geographic areas that had been carved together from the Ottoman empire, by consolidating power in the smallest ethnic group, but that wouldn't make the women who saw their husbands slowly lowered into vats of acid feel any better. Those tortures were still evil acts perpetrated by evil men, and no understanding of motivations is going to change that.
I don't have a problem with a Philosophy 101 discussion of the nature and perception of evil. But if you can't acknowledge that there are some people who really ARE evil, then it's a pointless exercise -- you're holding that evil is always and only a point of view, a difference of opinion. In that case, as the saying goes, your mind has become so open that your brains have fallen out.
TSG
why do people prefer banning everything instead of teaching their children?
because teaching takes much more time...
if you don't have enough time for your children, well, then that's your problem if your children does things that are "evil" from your perspective...
first, (as previously noted) understand your child's nature, understand what's normal for him/her to do...
and then, start educating him/her, keeping his/her nature in mind...
Limit them to amateur porn so that they don't have unreasonable expectations of possible future girlfriends or boyfriends.
im neither a parent, nor under the constraints of one. but i think the bigger picture is much more simple. the internet has all the content of the real world. wich means all the good all the bad, availible in an instant. the basic question is, would you let your 11 yr old kid go walking around new york by his/her self?. if not, then you should not let the be on the internet unsupervied, not sitting the the next room, not upstairs sleeping, but in a place you can adequatly see what their doing. you dont have to read every page or im the send, but pay attention to them. just like if you were walking around new york city, or any other major populated area. if you can trust your kids in that kind of situation, then you can trust them on the internet. i think a big issue that needs to be delt w/, particularly the older generation, is the view the internet as another form of TV or Radio. And its not even remotely comparable to the two. I think if parents understood this fundamental concept about WHAT the internet realy is. they would be much more cautious about letting their children use the net unsupervied.
--The Titanic was built by proffesionals. --The Ark was built by Amatures.
I think it might sound stupid, but what is it that you really want? Do you just want your children to never see porn? To not behave badly because of porn? To understand what society expects behavior wise so they're not outcasted?
At core, part of growing up is knowing how to survive. By this, I mean knowing things that can harm you directly (poison, pointy sticks, fire, drugs) and indirectly (murder (being murdered yourself or being arrested), possibly sex (unwanted children), drugs (arrest, dirty needles, etc)). If your point is solely to provide them with this information, then you actually *want* to teach your children porn so they know what can hurt them.
If you want to teach them enough to function in society like sheep (ie, doing actions without reasons), you'll certainly want to ban them from porn. You might do it to if you believe seeing porn will desensitize them from being able to function properly in society and more importantly a monogamous relationship.
My personal belief is that you really should talk your children like adults. By this, I mean you should try to explain to them all these things that would make you want to ban them from things. Yes, children aren't fully adults, but they will be adults soon. If nothing else, you need to discuss with them your beliefs. But, by the time they're 10 even, it's well beyond the point that you can so strongly integrate ideas into their psyche about the evils of something without a rational or emotional justification.
And rational justifications last the longest. The reason is of course because most people are rational beings. As such, the best thing you can do is speak to them on these terms. You're not trying to trick them into doing what's right, after all. You're trying to imprint your beliefs upon them because you've argued with yourself over why you believe the things you do (right?). And it won't be a perfect imprint. Pushing it won't help. Denying their right to make decisions will just breed resentment.
In summary, I'd suggest you try at an early age to teach them about life, from sex to death. By this, I mean you should describe their functions in life, not necessarily details. At the same time, you can convey the social normals (as you invariably do) as you progress through life. Language and culture are mostly learned through imitation. Imitation alone leaves only a hollow appearance, so please try to fill that shell well.
It'll fry his little brain, create a little trauma, and he won't be able to look at porn again for a few years. By then, it'll be time for it.
Oh quit painting millions with the brush of something specific. Why do you say that ALL Turks are evil ?
Some Turks != Turkey.
I generally don't like a lot of what I hear about The USA, but how are you going to equate that with "All Americans" or "being protestant" ?
I generally don't like a lot of what I hear about Greece, but how are you going to equate that with "All Greeks" or "being orthodox" ?
I'm sorry to tell you both guys, you're just racists. I know it's not easy to read, but it's reality. Get some education and try to be critical of the media.
heh, I mis-read IRA as RIAA at first. Made sense too.
I find the whole issue quite simple. I'm seventeen, and used to be a rather devout Christian. I discovered I was gay, and if it weren't for the freedom I had on the internet to find reassuring (and explorative) sites I could easily have been still as contrived and unhappy as I had been then.
The whole point about the internet is freedom to me, really, and restricting the freedom negates the value of having it in the first place. If you block something at home, kids will just get around it for the really bad stuff, but lose out on somethings that may be questionable yet informative.
I've had a computer in my room since I've been about 13 and I'm 17 now. I've never had any rules laid out to me, my parents have never discussed with me the evils of porn on the net (mainly because they haven't really used the net themselves so don't know about it). Yes I've seen some things I'd rather not have seen but I consider it all part of growing up, I feel a better person for having seen those things and I feel better towards my parents for them trusting me not to do stupid things. My mum knows I look at porn, me and my 2 brothers sometimes sit in the kitchen talking jokingly about what porn films are good while my mum is in the room, she just laughs at us which I think is the best response she could give.
"Why did we have to shoot them and Qusay's 15 year old son? Why not give them a trial?"
We (the US) would have preferred to capture them alive. We could have interrogated them and used them as public symbols of "success" in the war. Unfortunately, they made it quite clear that they would not be taken alive. What were our military forces to do, come back the next day and ask again.
I expect if we ever find Saddam, that he too will die fighting before allowing himself to become our prisoner. The suggestion that our soldiers are cold blooded killers who *chose* to kill rather than capture the aforementioned scumbags is unfounded nonsense.
... 'cause we all know that forbidding children from doing something stops them from doing it.
Ceres
It isn't my place to say so, but you may wish to rethink that particular explanation. I certainly understand the reasons behind blocking certain sites, but sooner or later one of the kids is liable to figure out what's going on. What will you tell them if they confront you?
My mother lied on several occasions to 'protect me' in similar fashion. When I discovered what was going on it resulted in loss of esteem and trust, feelings of resentment and betrayal and even self-doubt and guilt (if my own mother--the woman who drilled into me that honesty was the highest virtue--feels the need to lie to me what sort of person must I be?). Sadly, I was realizing these things as she was dying of cancer and never was able to discuss the matter with her. I was 20 at the time; that I didn't discover her 'white lies' sooner--as my sister did--shows the sort of implicit trust I felt my mother and I shared while growing up. Even at age 33 it still bothers me.
I'm not a parent, so I am in no position to judge your explanation. All I will say is that I scarcely recally the 'you are not allowed to do X and I'm doing Y to prevent you from doing it' stuff my mother did (my sister could probably come up with a list, tho ;-). The instances where she lied about what she was doing, however, are as fresh in my memory as the day I discovered the lies.
Keep the door open when you're on the computer.
holy shit my parents would have been freaked if I had followed that rule =)
I say *ALL* religious fundamentalists are evil, and not just soome, because even those that do not harm others directly do so by proxy. If they were not evil they would denounce their murdering colleagues en masse, which would undermine the militants totally.
Forgive me for suggesting this but it seems that the importance here relies on control rather than respect. From my understanding, the roles of a parent, a teacher and a therapist are common in one respect: They must work to make themselves redundant. Now, I'm speaking from a decidedly non moralistic control, engineering perspective here. The world acts as the world acts. We can either limit or filter our input or make the system so robust that it can handle any input without crashing. Surely the latter is the objective when we work to cultivate the lives of our children. By providing access to a vast world of information in the wild, surely we must be aware that our children will encounter many things which we may not be able to easily predict and shelter them against, even if this is desirable. We are talking about teens or close pre-teens here, I assume, not four year olds. Perhaps if the children have not learned enough about assessing their own personal values and have not been educated in ways to assess input for them selves, the perhaps we have missed the boat. I don't accept that the way to raise children is to keep them in a rubber room. Of course where the child is very young, it is our responsibility to not throw them into situations that they do not have the cognitive or emotional resources to deal with. This is just a reasonable protective action where the child has, literally, no capacity to interpret or integrate their experiences. However, if we plunk them down in front of the internet, knowing full well how vast and uncontrolled that environment is, surely we must have already assessed that they have learned enough about themselves to either handle the input personally or can access the resources they need to do so. If not, then we have failed them in their education to that point and railing against the uncensored nature of the real or virtual world is just an infantile or narcissistic reaction to our failed responsibilities. Requiring a teenager to not conceal their personal actions on the internet is, in my opinion, no less an imposition than any number of technological methods of tracing internet activity which have received their share of opposition on this forum. People will feel opposed to "big brotherism" no matter what its source. Voluntary restriction of usage is just asking for work arounds and disobediance. Ask any tech what they view at work using the bosses bandwidth. Is the objective here to limit another human being's access to information, as spurious as internet sources may be, or a genuine concern as to the effect that such an exposure might generate. Once again, providing tools to respond is superior to pretending that those inputs do not exist. I notice that there is no clear descriptiopn about what the teeen (or pre teen) might be viewing. The suggestion for mnay sources predisposes to viewing porn. If so, the matter might be alternative sexual expression. However, the matter might be alternative political views, social, economic , philosophical or spiritual models. If the child is not believed to have the ability to assimilate or interpret for themself, then why the hell are the being given access to the internet in the first place? I prefer to act from a viewpoint of education to assist the child to handle their own environment. I then also make myself available and educate the child that I am available as support for when they have difficulty in handling that environment. Do we work to control and limit our charges or to educate and support them in becoming free and mature human beings? The structure of your question suggests you prefer the former. I advocate the latter. Perhaps we will just have to disagree on this matter.
Back in my day all we had was ROT-13... and WE LIKED IT. A 1G hard disk was sweet and 16M ram was the cat's pyjamas. Uphill both ways too!
You can't trust your children to act responsibly at 18 if you haven't trusted them before.
Face it: Your children will grow up, you can not be there to watch over them every minute of their lives. They WILL have to learn to make their own decisions and take responsibility - learning this involves the opportunity to make bad decisions.
The internet is a relatively safe world (fearmongering about paedophiles notwithstanding) and if you cannot trust them with a modem, you'll never be able to trust them with a car, or in a liqour store - or with choosing a life partner. Tell them about the dangers - and why they are dangers. Tell them that paedophiles are bad people, and that they should never, under any circumstance, meet anyone they only know over the internet. Tell them that porn may be interesting, but real women aren't like that. Tell them what real women think of boys who spend lots of time on porn. Tell them that they'll have to act respectfully if they want others to respect them. Tell them to never give out their phone number, address or other information. Tell them that fraud is fraud, even on the internet.
Maybe it'll help, but ultimately it's up to your kids, not you. It's their life and you can prepare them for it, but you cannot live it for them.
I say *ALL* politicians are evil because they are all coercers by intent. They wouldn't even get into politics if they had no coercing tendencies, no desire to coerce others to their own views.
Without straying too far from the general scheme of our western "democracies", the best way by which the innate evil of politicians could be mitigated would be by separating the voting process into two parts: first a vote for issues to determine the public's current requirements, and second a vote for people to implement them. Most current-day politicians wouldn't apply for the latter role, because most do not truly want to serve the people.
But two of his kids are 11 and 12 only. They probably are still too young to have unlimited and unsupervised internet access. And you think they could handle torture and genocide? Morally they could, but emotionally? 11 and 12 years old are not adult.
Just place the computer in the family living room, I have two younger brothers and this is what I've discovered is the best method.
He's actually right, yes, they are all evil, if they support the actions of the people with guns that murder in their name.
You can't escape the stink of evil just by letting others do the dirty work for you. The Mafia bosses aren't good (in the sense of opposite of evil) just because they do not pull the trigger themselves.
Of course that applies to all other religions too, everywhere. The middle east shows vividly that Christians and Jews do not differ from followers of Islam one iota in their evilness.
Religion is, in a nutshell, evil in good's clothing.
Wait a second, the murder of Uday and Qusay Hussein needed justification beyond the fact that they were both brutal murderers and rapists themselves?
It did if you believe in the rule of law. Otherwise, you can also justify the bombing of the World Trade Centre on the grounds that as a centre of capitalist imperialism it brutally oppresses third world peoples.
Uday and Qusay almost certainly *were* murderers and rapists. Putting them before a court, trying them, finding them guilty and *then* executing them would have been the right way to go.
Assuming they hadn't resisted arrest, of course, but I think it's safe to assume they weren't given much opportunity to surrender.
As for people thinking that we're brutal people, they just don't know what really happened
Oh I think they do. That's why US helicopters are being shot out of the sky and US people carriers are being mortared off the streets as crowds cheer and dance in the streets.
Just because you uncritically swallow US propaganda, don't assume that nobody else can evaluate evidence.
I think it sounds like you're very caring and have really thought this through. However, you'll have to drop all the rules but the last one.
/.? We're all OK aren't we?)
Going past people to snoop on what they're doing and actually requiring them to participate in violating their own privacy is only going to alienate you from them, and it ruins the whole point of having a home to use the Internet IN rather than going to a public library. Essentially, you're going from being a parent to being a librarian, which I can't imagine why you'd want.
Especially because they might be looking at porn. I mean, do you really want to get in and regulate your kids' sexual fantasies? Just tell them you don't want porn on your hard drive or in your bookmarks file, and they'll probably be OK. (Right
So rather than doing what you've been doing, talk to your kids about what they're doing in chat rooms. There'll probably be a time when they'll go out and meet people they've talked to on the Internet, and you should discuss this with them. With online friends you run the risk of thinking you know someone, and then realize you don't know the person at all.
Try chatting on IRC for yourself if you have the time, but if you don't, at least try to keep track of where your kids are going and what they're doing. By the time they're 17, you'll have no influence on them whatsoever, so hopefully by that time, you'll have instilled a sense of responsibility.
Good luck!
Let them do with it what they want, but make sure they know what the consequences of their actions are.
:) ).
Don't go about creating idiotic rules for your kids, allow them some space and privacy. Make sure they are punished in some manner (no, don't terrorize or restrict them) when they do something wrong.
Also remember that your kids are not your clones, they have different views of the world as you have, so allow them to develop that view, as long as society can live with it.
If you want to make sure that they don't overuse or abuse the computer, motivate them to do different things (like RPGs
Or to make a long story short, manipulate them (not in a negative way), do NOT oppress them, since that will only result in them fighting back.
Your reasoning is semantically empty, because it relies entirely on the alleged wishes of an allegedly existing God.
... :-)
If you wish to believe in a God, that's fine, but to use that belief to underpin a rational argument is logically flawed.
On the other hand, this is Slashdot
Like so many things in modern society that seem to be a problem (drugs, teen pregnancy, alcoholism, etc) it seems that the problem of internet abuse is only present because the kids don't understand two important things:
1) Access is a privilege, not a right
2) Privileges are based on trust and responsibility
If the kids use the internet, then I have no problems with a content blocker and time limited connections, but still allowing them some privacy. I do have a problem with monitoring and logging of packets.
The first of these two is showing trust within a well defined set of rules (times, etc). The other is showing a definite mistrust, which requires subversive behaviour to punish. The emphasis, then, on monitoring them and punishing accordingly is starting out from the basis 'guilty until proven so'. If it is assumed that they are guilty of whatever you imagine, then they will be before long because that's how teenagers' minds work. They push boundaries, and if the boundaries give, they push harder.
Trust, openness (telling them about timers, content filters, etc) and a degree of trust is all you can do access wise.
Any problem said child may have which may cause them to want to write viruses, host porn, or start a pirate music industry is probably rooted in a different area of life altogether, and net access is just letting the symptoms show through.
Do you really think a person commits acts like those just so they can get women in heaven?
If they were Slashdot-reading geeks? Damn straight. They'd be trying to make up for the lack of women they get here on earth.
This will teach them to use encryption, which could be the most vaulable lesson you ever teach them regarding the Internet.
I've been using the internet (and programming) since I was 14 (1994) and since I was the computer expert of the house, I set the rules when it came to the computer (because otherwise people trashed it by not knowing what they were doing). There was porn online back then, but most of it was this rather innocuous amateur stuff and nude pictures on sites hosted by former BBS sysops (and I used to go on various BBSes too back then -- mostly for games) and trading I did in chatrooms on AOL (Yes, I used AOL back then). I did save some of it, and occasionally my parents would wander across it when going through the hard disk, and delete it, so I just got better at hiding it.
Personally, I think that if you are too overbearing with your childrens' interenet use, they'll just learn to be sneaky about things they do. I've seen it many times with computers or other things. You are MUCH better off, in my humble opinion, giving them ground-rules for online chat and message boards, because that's where the danger is. Not entering any personal info online, etc. It'd be like calling random people and telling them all about themselves and having a conversation. They have to be smart about it.
When it comes to things like porn, there is a line between saying you don't want them looking at that stuff, and making them feel that there is something they should be ashamed of a natural curiousity they have.
If they want to go to sites with porn (and there is also peer-2-peer, newsgroups, etc), you probably won't be able to stop them. You might catch them sometimes, but believe me, the last thing you want to do is appear like some kind of computer nazi if you get my drift. I'd deal with it appropriately and not go haywire. In fact, sometimes they might accidentally had that stuff pop up when going to a site they thought was innocent but was a SPAM trap for porn (windows popping up all over the place).
If you go overboard, they will just learn to hide everything they do from you, and there isn't a technology in the world that can shelter them from everything, nor guarantee that they can't close windows quickly when you go by, so your best battle is with pounding it into them to be anonymous in all communications and making sure they never give out personal information, and it was the same way when I was 14, and I was very smart about it. The media also overplays things to get ratings, and most of the stuff on the internet, though perhaps some considered adult material and communications, is not something that will traumatize your children -- especially compared to the kinda stuff they probably talk about at school, which I guarantee is much "worse" in most cases.
Volunteer Mozilla developer, RPI Student.
Then how do you explain Muslims ruling India for centuries, but the place is still 85% Hindu? They didn't execute them like you're trying to put forth, but they're not Christians or Jews.
Islam is NOT supposed to be an "accept or die" religion. And you're wrong, Christians and Jews aren't supposed to be second class, nor pay debilitating taxes. Maybe a few corrupt Turkish rulers did in the past, but that's not what any Muslim scholar would say to do. Did they teach you this kind of bias in Greece?
No, what I don't like about Turkey is its secularism, they forbid teaching the Qur'an to children and won't let women wear scarves at colleges or government buildings. That's not the right way to do things.
I wasn't saying all Turks were evil, I was trying to highlight the error of his viewpoint. He's casting too wide a net. It's like saying you hate everyone from the Eastern Hemisphere, because all our terrorism comes from there.
i think grepping the logs could be a good thing. it might be a little devious, but here's the intention: you may not have thought of everything you need to talk to your kids about, and you may not know all their interests. this could give you a little insight, a little more understanding of who your kids *really* are, which may well allow you to relate to them in a more productive, healthy way.
you don't need to punish them, or confront them. you may just want to stop cracking gay jokes at the dinner table, for example.
Is it just me, or does she look a bit like Sally Fields?
Why not treat the net just like real life? There are places you wouldn't let your kids go alone in real life, and the same should go for the net. By that, I mean you should come up with a list of "safe" sites and block everything else for them, unless you are with them at the time.
The net is an adult place, and just like you wouldn't want your kids wondering around late at night in the seedier parts of two, you don't want them wondering about on the net. Or, at least that's the way it seems, I don't have kids so I can't really offer any advice on parenting as such.
const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
Don't tell me, you probably live in the US or something. This just boosts my prejudgings of how you raise your children.
HA!
There are two types of strippers. There's the "My dad beat me and made me feel like a cheap whore so that's the only way I know how to live." strippers. Then there's the "My daddy gave me everything I wanted just for batting my eyelashes and now I've found that just by whipping out my tits I can get any man to give me whatever I want because I'm a spoiled bitch" strippers.
I'd say that the split is about 60/40 in favor of the former currently.
Yes, I am talking out of my ass.
'Standards' in computing only impress those who are impressed by things like 'standards'.
First off, the *good* solution for this problem is to put the internet in the
living room or family room or someplace like that. This then applies equally
to everyone (parents, teens, younger kids) and so while they can complain about
wanting it in their room, they can't produce a coherent argument to the effect
that you're being tyrannical by keeping it in a "public" area, as long as it's
a consistent policy. Note that this does not preclude having more than one
computer, so that more than one person can use it at a time -- in the same
room together. (This is great for network games...)
Failing that, however, he who controls the connectivity controls all. If all
the computers go through one connection, whoever controls the router can as
necessary (or as desired, for that matter) log and monitor anything. If it's
only the web you are concerned about (which would be a bit naive, frankly),
you could block outgoing port 80 to force all the browsers through a proxy
that logs everything. For that matter, the router itself, assuming it's a
PC (with BSD or whatever) functioning as a router, can just log all the
traffic that goes through; even with pretty small logsize limits, you have
a few minutes to check anything. (Except encrypted traffic, but the only
thing they're *likely* to be doing that would be encrypted, unless they're
computer geeks, is https. I'm not certain, but I *think* you can put https
traffic through a proxy.) One note about this: you do NOT want to keep
the logging a secret. If you want them to be open about their use of the
internet, you MUST be open about your use and monitoring of it. Openness
goes both ways. "Do as I say, not as I do" doesn't work.
As for the people saying "trust them", that may be the right approach with
some kids, but others will require you to take a more active approach. It
sort of depends on the kid. Some kids by age 10 have matured enough to have
the discernment to use the internet in a responsible fashion; others you'll
have to watch closely until they hit 18 and move out. This partly depends on
how they've been raised up to that point, but it also partly just depends on
the kid's personality. Note also that sometimes you'll have to monitor a
kid you otherwise wouldn't have to, in order to avoid favoritism when a
sibling needs to be watched. Fortunately, the kids who don't need to be
watched will generally not chaffe under being watched. It's the ones you
*need* to watch who don't *want* to be watched. (And, turning that around,
if the kid really hates for you to know what he's doing, you've got a
problem on your hands. Except in the bathroom, of course; very few kids
want to be watched in the bathroom, and if they *did*, well, that would
actually be scary.)
Also you should be aware that they *will* be using the internet outside the
home, in friends' homes, the public library, or wherever else they find it.
But you knew that already.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
all they need is a good old french pornmovie..."film porno" as they say :)
actrices film films actrice film films actrices porno actrice de cul
By the time my parents got a home computer, I was 17, had been programming for over a year, and was quite capable of circumventing any security measure they put in place.
Make your kids learn about computers the way I did: Give them a Teletype ASR-33, connected to an Interdata mini with 265K of core memory, and make then use that for a few years before they get to graduate to an HP-3000, which has about 30 users connected at any one time.
If you want to overindulge them, let 'em have an Apple II, and a dial-in number for a FidoNet node. Not too many perverts have the patience to lead a kid astray with two-day message propagation times these days..
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I know a woman who does internet porn.[1]
We were all concerned for her safety, certainly at first. But so far, she's okay, and in fact finds the sessions a lot of pretty harmless fun. Although she is concerned about her mother finding out, I don't think she'd go off the handle. She certainly isn't being degraded (I'm not sure about the details of what she's doing, I think it's femdom). Hell, maybe the people being degraded like being degraded. She says the atmosphere in the sessions is laughing and joking, not even being taken the slightest bit seriously, and that it's a right laugh.
That doesn't mean she's going to have an answer in 10 years, when her 11-year-old niece asks her why Auntie is standing on someone in these pictures. On the internet, pictures live forever - especially porn.
But she seems comfortable with that. When she's a 70-year-old great grandma, she'll probably be able to browse the web and go "You see? I had a reet good body in them days, I did. It were a lot of fun, too". (She probably would, too. And she'd be right.)
Just another point on the data curve for you.
[1] She's already spoken for, and no, I'm not dating her, she's going out with some footballer or something. She's like a little sister to me - in fact, a friend's little sister. Yes, when she goes out, she does get men following her around like little puppy dogs. She likes the attention, although so far, no-one's recognised her.
What if you happen to have an MPEG artefact fetish?
have not read the threads here but we use a variety of packet sniffers/loggers to capture everything that comes in or out of our Internet connection so that we can look and see what our kids are doing on the Internet.
Has also come in handy to see what some virus/worms do when we intentionally let them loose within a configured VMWare session.
Also we see those scans from our Internet Provider looking for servers and other stuff I suppose.
More like '94, we were still stuck with Prodigy though.
My point is that you can't possibly block everything, and whether you want to try or just trust your kid is up to you.
> [People go through weird shit when they're young.... so they have weird sexual preferences when they're older ]
I remember has a thing for plastic pants when I was younger maybe 5 or 6... It was a sexual thing. I don't have a rubber/latex fettish these days. I'd probably rate myself as a dull and uninteresting lover prone to ruts and assumption. Whatever...
> [they will discover internet porn]
Hell, I had a Timex Sinclare the first year of highschool. It allowed me to have a small black and white television in my bedroom. There was no interent then. Hell, even BBSs had yet to arrive. Still, this television picked up a porn channel out of NJ (spice?). My first voluntary wank (supprised the hell out of me) was to that channel even though they scrambled the verticle sync. Jesus... I've forgotten just how fscking horny I was in Highschool.
Anyway, girls and dating were pretty anti-climatic (so to speak) and overly complicated after that little discovery. Computers on the otherhand (so to speak)... I shunned the girls throughout highschool and college and saved myself untold hartache and the massive bullshit that goes along with period in life. My highschool carrear was perfect in that regard and I wouldn't change a thing.
I still look at Internet porn to this day, but not at work and not in front of family and friends. I'm out of the "weirder the better" phase, but there are still certain kinks that float my boat. I consider the habit much like smoking in America today. It's not something you'd brag about, but if done in the right way, it ain't going to hurt anyone... of couse, there are some side benefits: my attitudes about sex have gone beyond the European non-uptightness (but I'm not a nudist yet either!) and, from what I understand, a daily endorphin fix enjoyed by yourself can be quite healthy in the long run.
> [worried that they will do illegal things]
Yes, they will. I did. My particularl little peccadillo was pirating Apple II software. Shitloads of it. God bless all the kind soles who swapped software in the back of Byte magazine... Hell, that would probably pass as "Fair Use" today, but at the time, it was cutting edge bad. In fact I got a letter back from one of those Byte swappers telling me that his parents had caught him and that what I was doing was just plain wrong. Whatever... P2P brings it full circle. Type "iso crack torrent serial" into Shareaza and see what happens. I still don't buy software... never have, never will, just like thousands of other Americans that simply can not afford it... I tend to use open source whenever possible and the world is a better place for it. I guess we all have our little jihads. Now that I have experienced the corporate world first hand, I am absolutly positive that my path is the way and the light.
[want to control their exposure to things, esp. excessive exposure that could be habit forming]
Completely missed the drugs thing despite going to highschool and college during the height of the cocaine and crack epidemics of the 80s and 90s. My parent's secret? Getting my pilots license before my driver's license. Two thoughts: 1st class medical and piss-tests. 12 hours from bottle to throttle, FAA hyperbaric chamber exposure... I understood that effects of drugs and the consequences the could have on my job and things I enjoyed. I did not particularly enjoy the effects of alcohol, but guess what? I think pot should be legal (even thought I don't use it)... at least on par with alchohol. I guess I never did see the intellecutal honesty in differentiating between the two (that's because there is none).
And now for the failure: "dad" tried to limit my exposure to Television. Big mistake. Locked up the power plug to the TV when he wasn't there. I hacked around it and watched when he wasn't home and let them "control" my exposure by dictating what I "could and could not watch". Still watch TV to this day. They're still under the delusion that they
I don't have children but when I do I will not be putting filters or anything else on their computers. These kids are going to someday be adults and be in the real world and you can't shield them from everything. If I were you I would sit down and have a heart-to-heart with them and explain to them why you feel it is wrong for them to be doing what they are doing, how it disappoints you (children want parent's respect), and make sure they understand exactly why the rules exist.
//m
America nuked two civilian cities, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Does that make America evil?
You say you'd like to hear from "the other side of the fence", so I'd thought I'd share some experiences from the point of view of a 17 year old, who's been using the internet since around 12. I don't know how tech minded your children are, but (as you probably know), it's really not that hard to cover your tracks if you have the knowledge. I can understand you might like to know what internet sites you children have been visiting - you don't mention their sexes, but I assume you're worried about internet porn and other illegal sites, and the (well over exaggerrated) possibility of "grooming". However, there are many good reasons as to why your children may wish to lie or quickly exit / minimise a programme - you wouldn't listen in on your children's conversations with there friends, and so they probably don't want you to look at what they're saying to there IM friends. There are some children who just value there privacy - my younger sister (13) instinctivly quits her computer programmes when anyone walks past, and turns off the TV when anyone walks into the room. If you're really concerned, there are programmes and facilities to enable you to closely monitor your children - for example, MSN Messenger has an option that lets you retain all chat logs for later viewing, and there are obviously web filters (although I've always thought of these as a bad idea). ...perhaps you should think back to all the rules you broke when you were a child, and the times your parents didn't find out...
OK, sorry if I hurt your feelings, I've been probably too harsh with you. However your net still seems too wide in equating turkish policy with turkish individuals.
That greek guy though, is quite incredible in his bias. I met a fair share of greeks or armenians before, and I never heard/read that much crap from them about turks/muslims. Wow really "christian turks are called greeks or armenians", get a clue boy ! Get out of your small village and travel a bit, instead of reading your crappy greek low-level newspapers.
5 years ago, We did not give our teen daughter (11 at the time) her own bedroom computer, although there is one in the basement now, for the kids.
At first, we let her use her mom's computer in public familly space. When we found porn on the puter, we let her know that we would catch her breaking any of our rules, so she shouldn't do so.
We also later found message logs that made us intervene in her life, without letting on that we spied on her. Teens aren't very open to their parents, and her computer activity let us keep tabs on her.
The point is we had rules, rules were broken, we enforced the rules until they were followed.
I love DDR. I fully agree with the one school that made it an option for phys ed class.
Except then, how would parents react to PE teachers who give the students DDR homework? "For the final exam, learn to pass 'Max 300' on heavy." ("Max 300" is one of the fastest, most difficult songs in the game, requiring the player to take 573 steps in a minute and a half.)
Will I retire or break 10K?
Why not route set up a firewall and route all the traffic through there and use squid to keep tabs on what sites they are visiting by checking out the access logs?
Why are yqu octing like your sibling's parent? Geez, what a snoop.
If not, then he had better keep them away from TV and the newspaper too. (Don't worry about the school's history textbooks, as they're so watered down as to be useless anyway.)
"Mom, look what PBS says our Contras did with their bayonets to pregnant women! Why did we keep funding them?" or "Mom, look what Washington Post says happened in Rwanda in 1994. Why did we only send 270 troops?"
Can't there be a middle ground between putting your children in cages and letting them run wild like a pack of murderous jackals?
Legally, monitoring your child's online activities is not a requirement, but to not allowing them access to questionable material (pipe bombs, etc) is.
The problem is that parents invariably try to take the easy way out. Rather than have hard discussions about important issues (sex, drugs, why you shouldn't rub out that little prick at school with a pipe bomb, etc), they'll try the gestapo route, because it's easier to carry a big stick.
Listen, I'd say put whatever necessary technological restrictions are necessary (a broadband with NAT with filtered DNS/firewall is where I'm leaning), then talk to your kids when they ask why they can't look up the anarchist's cookbook.
Respect is not given, it's earned, and if you don't give your children reasons when they ask why, they're not going to respect you.
In reality, though, 99% of the kids are going to get there anyway, either by figuring out a way to defeat them or simply end-running around it (downloading pr0n at Jimmy's house). So, even though it isn't a legal requirement, the talking is the important part.
As someone who had a hell of a childhood and was beset by complexes (handicapped from birth) and loneliness (my father died when I was 9 and my mother's later boyfriend treated me like a dog), I can just say there are some things you should know and do if you're interested in your childrens well being:
1.Talk to them. It sound so simple, doesn't it? But is it? We all know as adults just how difficult the modern world is and how litttle time we have, but that overdone cliche about spending quality time with your children is damn important. Controlling your kids too much will make them fear you and lose your trust. Show them that you love them and are interested in their lives. Make them feel like home is a place of warmth and saftey and that you will protect them with everything you've got.
2.Treat them like real human beings. There are so many guides that advocate rules and strict parenting, but neglect the fact that your children are real human beings with their own personalities and feelings. Treating them with respect (privacy is important for them too) will help them when the time comes on the internet that some sicko doesn't treat them with respect.
3.Have a set of rules about what you can and will accept. This might seem paradoxial to what I said above, but it isn't. If you explain to your children why you set those rules instead of just being the parental nazi, they will be more likely to follow them. Having rules is important, very important, in that it shows children to realise and know what other people's limits are i.e. they realise as well that you are in fact a real person.
4.Never break their trust. This can be damn difficult, but it is damn important. Don't be too harsh if they break a rule or do something stupid. Show them you're angry or worried (yell if you need to, penalise them in a SMALL way if need be i.e. one week no internet or extra task around the house) but don't leave it at that. Talk to them afterward to show you're still interested. Learn to forgive your kids for breaking rules, and show them that it's ok. We all know how difficult and unforgiving life and society are. They don't need that at home as well, because then there's no difference between home and the wild for them.
I'm going to assume with three kids that you have no easy way to keep them all in the same room where you are or anything like that.
So - you TELL them you can see where they go by looking at the router logs AND..for god's sake why do I have to say this, ENFORCE YOUR RULES. At the first sign of rule breakage, TAKE THE COMPUTER AWAY. PERIOD.
Seriously, by looking at your post, you sound like one of those parents that makes rules and then doesn't punish the child when they break them.
So stop being a wuss.
Well, I have had Internet access since I was 12, been in front of computers blowing shit up since far before that, and getting my hands into as much computer knowledge as I can ever since I was 4.
Yeah, as I teen I drooled over nude girls on the net, I played some of the most violent games ever created, and I spent hours upon sleepless hours in my room, with the door shut, tinkering with code, stroking my penis, having sex with my girlfriends(yes, geeks get girls), and writing hot steamy letters love letters that I never feared my mother would dare read.
And she never did, she respected my privacy, she always has, and she always will. She knew what I was doing some nights, she didn't mind. I wasn't exploiting poor women of the net, I was venting sexual frustration, I wasn't doing drugs, I was chugging coffee, I wasn't hacking AOLer's accounts, I was learning python. and I wasn't getting the girl pregnant, I always wore a rubber.
This is what I did as a kid, and I am sure I am not alone. Where did it get me? I graduated high school with honors, went to college, got a job as a network admin, and will be married next summer. I have a clean civil record, aside from numerous speeding tickets, am generally kind to strangers as long as they are as courteous to me as I try to be to them, and I even teach 12 years old basic programming in my spare time.
I got where I am today being a so called, bad kid, because my parents understood that I wasn't being bad, I was being responsible, given my age, and they trusted, and respected me.
Your kids are never going to grow up if you keep making them be 12 all their life. They can make their own choices, it won't get them killed, unless you raised a real moron.
Remember, easiest way to get a kid to do something, is to tell them not to. Also, might be worth mentioning that my parents were much strickter with my older sister, and regularly invaded her privacy. I turned out alright, and she spends most of her days looking through the world from the bottom of a bottle. Think about it.
That being said, no, I have no children, nor will I ever have any.
I don't usually use the terms Evil and Good. And I wont say that pornography is wrong as such, but I think you're being a little naive about the industry. You are right that some women enjoy posing naked for the cameras. Others (fewer) enjoy doing actual porn, but don't take too rosey a view of it - there are a lot of nasty people in the porn business and the money can end up in some pretty grubby pockets too.
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
I'm British iv had a pc in my room since I was 13 and the net since 14. No rules were ever laid down and nothing bad ever happened. My point is this in the uk the age you become an adult tends to be 16 not 18 or 21. Fir enough u can't drink or drive but in almost all sense of the work your considered adult. We finish school at 16. Its are choice if we want to continue on to higher education and a parents ability legally to control and be accountable for there child ends. Most of theses threads are going on about not trusting you kid till 18 as there not old enough to understand or make competent decisions. I'm afraid I would have to say that is more of a reflection of YOUR society. It has nothing to do with the capacity of the child. It is how you Treat them. If u treat them like a kid for live they will act like 1. Only when a child leaves you circle of influence do they become who they really are. They take some of the stuff they learnt from you but also a lot of there own stuff.
So you ask what is my point. My point is all over the work kid cease to become kids at different ages. That tells you that they can deal with an adult situation so I say trust them. They know the rules of your society if they break them I bet they tend to break them in the real world too. The net is not some big scare other place to kids. As far as there concerned its always been there its only a scary place to YOU. You wouldn't stop your kids from playing in a park. The net is the same. You kid can get his hands on anything they want. The net makes it easier yes but that is all it dose.
Give them a brake. You probably rely annoying them.
Andy
Once I realized that my kids had been watching Southpark and The Man Show, I quit worrying about the Internet.
(although this comment stands a snowball's chance in hell of being seen - 1343 comments(!))
My only rule for my inner child's internet/computer use is: If you see some REALLY good pr0n, make sure you share it with me.
Both.
"Sometimes the truth is stupid." - Lawrence, creator of Prime Intellect
Bin Laden is evil too. As is anyone who purposely targets civilians.
Purposefully targeting civilians? You'll find a whole lot more evil closer to home if you use that definition...
Make NO policies. If a child REALLY WANTS to get access to pornography or whatever you forbid him to view on his computer, no amount of policies, CyberNannys, etc is going to prevent him/her from accessing that material from a friends home or a public computer. Preventing access to media just does not work.
Bin Laden is evil too. As is anyone who purposely targets civilians
Sorry, did we forget to mention the 8000 to 10,000 more recent civilian deaths?
Donald Rumefeld is not evil. He is my Dad! At least that's what my mom tells me.
Just because I think that teenagers who break the rules their parents lay down should be punished?
What do you suggest? The more they break the rules, the more they get rewarded?
I guess that when, "ops", I hit a market, an hospital or a hotel, make it all right then?
[]'s Victor Bogado da Silva Lins
^[:wq
The computer my 11 year old daughter uses is connected to the net through a linux box running Squid, set up to log accesses. It also has VNC server on it. She knows that I have a history that she can't erase, and that I can look at her screen at any time from any computer at home or work without her knowing I'm doing it.
OK, this is the sort of stuff that we chafe when our employers do it to us. But I've found that it works well for us.
Parents, once you're past making the huge mistake of actually letting the kids have computers in their rooms, what's a reasonable set of guidlines?
Why are you asking for guidelines after you've made the mistake??? CORRECT YOUR [DUMB-ARSED] MISTAKE
Obviously posted by a person who has no idea what parenting is supposed to accomplish: it's not about avoiding confrontation with your child, it's about rearing them. Be a parent - walk into their bedroom and take the computer away. Get out there and do it - now.
(Truth in advertising: I don't have any kids, in part because I don't see a way to raise my progeny without media saturation or interaction with the 'darlings' that the poster is putting forth into the world - pr0n knowledgeable at 5).
If you want to know why pornography is evil then just think about it from the point of view of the photographic objects. Imagine that was you, how degraded would you feel if you were the subject of those pictures. What kind of psycological defences would you have to put up just to get up in the morning?
This kind of flawed logic seems to be very common. You would feel degraded by being the subject of pornographic photos, therefore everybody would feel degraded by it, therefore pornography is bad.
The world isn't that simple. There are a lot of people who enjoy or seek out things that others consider degrading or even harmful. What one person finds degrading, another might find entertaining or even arousing. Neither side is wrong until they insist that everybody else must feel the same way.
that was funny enough that I would mod it up, especially if he was logged in.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Even thought I agree with most of what you writen, I think I most say that I don't believe in this "evolutionary" view of history. I don't think that all civilizations will eventually become a certain way. Many people seem to view things that way, since many of todays cultures have many similar values.
:-)
But this is all rooted first in the roman empire, that conquered and exported it's culture to all europe, then you have the colonialism that exported the culture to africa, americas and asia. And the the grand finalle is the great wars that "taimed" japan and force them to join our way.
Ps. I am not a historian or anything like, I just happen to be very intereted in the subject. Any correction or observation is welcome.
[]'s Victor Bogado da Silva Lins
^[:wq
I had a similar situation 12, 14 year olds.
1. Let them have e-mail with a password that only I knew.
2. I placed VNC on their machines for two reasons. For management and remote viewing.
The remote viewing worked wonders. Our daughter was on an IM. After about a month of viewing what she was doing at times we suspected of not following rules we confronted her with some of the names she was communicating with. She has not disobeyed any more rules with her computer.
Whether you're simply trying to be funny with your reference to god in your remark or expressing true sentiment... its sad you stoop to the level to treat someone like this.
Didn't he just say he was 13. It takes a lot of courage to stand up for something you believe in. Especially when its not the majority view (i.e. saying pr0n is wrong and destructive to people and relationships).
I'm sure I'll get moderated as flamebait for this, but.... I hardly doubt anyone here has any advice that's either informed or from the perspective you're looking for.
By this I mean two simple things: most slashdot folks are likely 16 through 27 or so (I'd imagine, since they're likely to have the most free time), are extremely liberal (most liberal folks I know are of the "don't discipline your child, it might scar him - until he's a teenager, then start", and "let kids do what they want, they're intelligent" persuasion - which is not to say all are), and are more likely to not have a family than to have one.
All these conditions, in my mind, make any advice gotten here something you might not want to consider.
That being said, this 21 y/o father and husband thinks that if, by the time they're 12 or 13, and they're still lying to you, something was done wrong from the beginning. There's evidently a trust issue. Recalling back to the few years to my adolecense, I'd say that this lack of trust is likely due to the fact that they're alienated by you and/or see you as the enemy.
My experience is that if you're the enemy (and I don't just mean your child is upset with you for a couple days, I'm talking about long-term resentment and/or distrust), then it's most likely that you weren't open enough with them when they were younger, aren't open enough with them now, and communication lines need to be cut and re-laid. Tell them that you trust them. Let them know that they've got someone they can talk to if they need to. Be interested in -them-, and care about the things they do. This means spend time with them if they'll allow it. Develop a report with them more sophisticated than the simple "this is how my day was" kind of conversation. You'll thank yourself later.
As for the actual guidelines that I'd suggest (from a fairly liberal-right kind of guy): back off for now, and develop that relationship. If that doesn't seem to be working, let them know that you don't appreciate it. Check their browser caches and/or history, if you're paranoid and/or want to be restrictive of their behavior: if they're bad, let them know about the harms/dangers of whatever they're doing, don't chastize them or punish them. By the time a kid reaches adolecense, they're likely too independent (depending on the kid) to be disciplined effectively, unless the infraction is quite severe. Dolling out punishments like cheap doctor's office candy just causes hatred towards you - they'll see you as being mean.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
As said, great post. Also it's clear to most of us that you're well ahead of the curve. You're well ahead of me really, and I'm 22. Welcome to my friend list :)
Satan, Rummy is not, Smiling Man though he most assuredly is.
I was a teenage hacker (or "cracker" if you want to nitpick). The funny thing is, I did it (crack systems) openly in front of my parents, they just didn't know what I was doing. One of my friends came over, and we were checking out this system that I had got into. He was all paranoid and kept hiding it when my parents walked by. My mom suspected something and thought we were downloading porno or something. He could've just left it and my parents wouldn't have had a clue what we were doing.
As for the other concern, porno. Of course, any healthy teenage boy will have gigs of porno stored away by age 15. Why try to stop this?
Zoot!
Without artifical barriers to cultural imports and exports (such as immigration caps, censorship, etc.) I believe this process would become quite rapid in most societies. Of course, in the actual world, these artifical barriers and natural ones such as xenophobia and religious conflicts tend to temper the merging of cultures.
It seems to me that all people share common desires, wants, and needs and eventually will come to a conclusion on the best way to achieve those. I don't necessarily think that the conclusion will be reached by all people at the same time, just that most cultures rise and fall in similar manners, looking at other cultures for guidance and examples. Looking at major civilizations currently and in history, I think there's a clear pattern of religious rulers, despotic rulers, and democratic rulers (and in some cases, a combination of two or three!).
In the context of Iraq, I don't believe their recent regime was any worse than leaders in Anglo-Saxon history some 300-400 years ago. Eventually, the people get sick of it and revolt, leading to a new form of government. I believe that Iraq, left alone, would eventually come to this conclusion. Of course, the issue was whether Hussein would kill a bunch of Americans before that happened. ;)
You think porn is essential to a person's development? Furthermore, trust is less important than making sure the right things happen, and porn (and the internet) is more than "a few naked women". Would you be worried if your 15 year old son wasn't looking at a few pictures of naked men? I believe you see this issue strictly through typical male, adolescent eyes.
Don't censor them - indoctrinate them - then they will censor themselves.
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
Parents must be aware of what's happening with their children and a child's right to privacy is less important than their safety. IM's, emails, and anything else are certainly a parent's business and a child's privacy is a privilege he earns.
Your suggestion comes from someone clearly lacking in experience. Trust AND verify. When you grow up you may understand.
I doubt anyone will ever see this message buried as it is below 1400 other posts, but there is a pretty good piece of logging software that'll automatically point out the less savory URLs to you in a report that you can receive as frequently as you like. Service costs $7 a month, and can be set up for a number of users, so one kid isn't blaming the other.
Covenant Eyes is the name of the software.
The parent didn't suggest that the kids were perfect. Honor student, musician, and eagle scout all mean something. The kids are achievers.
We can't live our children's lives for them but we can teach them skills that will help them succeed. Leaving them on their own to soak up porn on the internet all day is not the right way to raise an adolescent. Recognizing that many kids regardless of background will experient doesn't lead to a good solution.
I would say you're poorly informed opinions suggest you are still a child more than your age does.
My sister raised three boys and was overprotective by the standards discussed here. They was all eagle scouts and merit scholars. They are self-reliant and did not "go wild" once out of the house. They are flawed like everyone else but are all tremendous yound men. So perhaps your parents were just lucky. Protective parents don't necessarily take away their kids privacy, and all kids hate their parents at one time or another. Childraising is a longterm activity as you may eventually discover.
I got WOW! internet when I was in fifth grade. I was actually the one who requested it, previously I had been dialing into BBS and using ancient dial-in CompuServ from my dad's office. The internet didn't really "change" my life, I didn't become a bad kid nor was I raped or followed. It helped me access porno sites, but, I would have stolen porno magazines anyway, so I guess it saved me from going to juvie. It helped me learn how to have cybersex, but, I guess that's better than getting an STD at age 11.5. ;) I was pretty much unrestricted on the net. Really, it's rather safe! You have more chance that, waiting under a building, that it will crumble on you than being abducted by the evil internet pedophile. But, most importantly, it helped me learn about programming, *NIX, dialectical materialism, all things which I cherish and continue to learn about. It also gives me free mp3s. WOW!!!! (While I download mp3s, sometimes, I really wish I was honest enough to go out and buy the damn CD. I think you should drill this into your children and besides, CD covers are worth the money in the first place.)
Mom: Then why did you do that?
Child: I did that because you have not right to censor might liberties. And if you were a parent worth a damn, you would have build a case that was compelling enough that i might have agreed with your censorship.
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
For me it depends on the parent. My dad has been a sysadmin for many years; he knows that not everything that comes up on my screen was specifically requested by me. Not so with Mom. A few years ago I was reading rgrn, and there was a message with a porno reference in it ("porn reference" = the word "porn"). Mom conveniently walked in at that point and gave me a 10-minute lecture on the evil of pr0n. Sheesh. Ever since then, I've minimized /. whenever she walks into the room.
.sig.
So, for the parents here: above all, DON'T JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS and make sure your kids know that you know the difference between looking for pr0n and seeing the word 'pr0n' in someone's
If you want to know why pornography is evil then just think about it from the point of view of the photographic objects. Imagine that was you, how degraded would you feel if you were the subject of those pictures. What kind of psycological defences would you have to put up just to get up in the morning? Kind of makes you understand why so many people in the porn industry are addicts doesn't it?
What makes you expect that said people would feel "degraded"? Your values, of course.
People with a different value set may have a different perspective.
I can't speak as to porn, but a few of my friends once worked as dancers in strip clubs (and another spent some time working as a nude model for the local university's art department). I can't say any of them ever saw their own work as degrading, despite the dissenting opinions of others.
One could even go as far as to argue that if it's the "degredation" meme that causes pornography to be harmful, then it's those (such as yourself) who perpetuate that meme who are responsible for the relevant harm.
everyone lies on the internet. even me.. right now... lying to myself about being qualified to determine that absolutely everyone lies on the internet.
This is not true today. All the ocidental cultures, may seem similar to the casual viewer, but they are actually very diferent. I live in Brasil, and I tell you, we had a sexual scandal with one president a few years ago (10 or so). Itamar Franco, was photographed with a model that were wearing no panties, during the carnaval. All paper in the following day had the pictures. What happend? Itamar had a increase in his popularity.
People in diferent countries think quite diferent. I was in europe (spain and france, Madrid and Paris actualy) this year. And it is quite impressive how much people differ only by moving a few kilometers (1260Km). It is not only the language that changes is how people think and see the world.
The globalization has made it easier for people experience diferent cultures and even import traits from those cultures. But when you bring something to your culture, you're assimilating, changing it. Even what people choose to use from other cultures is choosen based in the original culture.
For instance, Brasil is the process of importing halloween. Each year you see more and more halloween parties, but they are our parities, and I am sure they are quite diferent from what americans know about halloween.
[]'s Victor Bogado da Silva Lins
^[:wq
First, I'm a parent. That doesn't make my advise better than that of anyone else, but it does mean I am not being flippant like the majority of post to this topic.
Children are trying to find the boundaries to life. They have no idea where those are. Good parents teach children the bounds of acceptable behavior. That includes preventing behavior that may damage or kill them. Access to certain sensory inputs that are not age appropriate can be damaging. I believe that the majority of pornography falls into that area. Will it hurt them physically? Masturbation jokes aside, no. Will they recover from any psychological damage they incur? Of course. but this is one of many things that make growing-up more difficult than it needs to be, and can lead to long term dysfunction in rare cases. Anyone who doesn't think that what you see can have a negative effect on you psychologically, is not giving proper consideration to the question. Violence on television (as opposed to sexual content, and NOT including cartoon violence) has a very real and negative effect on adults. Most adults have reasonable impulse control. Most children do not. I am unable to cite the study that concluded this, but any social science types out there should be able to.
The point of all of this is that parents must be vigilant always and unyielding at times. If you don't enforce the boundaries you set, then children learn that there are no consequences to their actions. How many times a day do we lament that behavior in adults? If you want to raise a potential criminal, you teach that nothing but your own satisfaction matters, and there are no boundaries to your behavior. Like most choices in life, you do that by inaction rather than action.
As for trust. That must be earned, and constantly reaffirmed. children are not adults. They often have great intelligence, but never have the wisdom of experience. To raise a child well you don't have to be smarter than your child, just wiser. It is not unfair to say "don't quickly exit from everything." It is unfair not to enforce the rule. What you don't know can hurt your child.
Finally, you don't create a sense of privacy by turning a blind eye to certain areas of your child's life. You must know everything. You, instead, allow certain behaviors that you know to be benign but possibly out of the norm. And others that may teach a lesson without doing long term harm. One of the most difficult jobs of parents is to decide what mistakes to allow their children to make and what to save them from. You can't save them from all mistakes, and you do more harm that good to try.
As for on-line behavior. I like the TIS firewall toolkit's web proxy feature of being able to log all or just initial http requests. I also have a phone systems that logs all incoming and out going calls. It also prevents calls from certain extensions at certain times. This is useful for requiring younger children to be in a public part of the house when they talk on the phone. If they want privacy I can leave the room, but they must ask for it. But it's all just a fall back position, so I can check up on the trust building part of things. I want to know if my children are lying to me, but I have to give them the opportunity to tell the truth. I also have to teach them not to blindly trust others, by teaching what is expected of them to earn my trust. Lastly, I have to have the wisdom let them be themselves within limits.
After reading so many of these posts, and even one from a supposed "parent of 10" (bullshit), I've got news for the overwhelming majority of you slashdotters:
Pornography isn't Sex.
Its not even Sex Education.
Perhaps its time to _put_the_computer_down_, get outside, and see that there is a great big world out there. Real people doing real things.
D00d, try out for a sport. I bet my 14 year old daughter could kick your ass - and therein lies the problem. Since you have no capacity to interact with normal people on a daily basis, you revert to porn. Because my daughter can kick your ass, you have to revert to "women" who have no capacity to say "no", or comment on what a pathetic loser you are.
While running rampant as a majority on slashdot, you're in the vast minority in your highschool. Probably just waiting for a chance to go Columbine on all those who done you dirt, don't give you no respect, etc.
Grow a pair, and grow up. Mummy and Daddy will on ly pay for your cable modem for a few more years. GET A JOB.
here's a theory on why BUSH is evil:
1: skull and bones member
From public speeches:
2: doesn't know the difference between reading a book and writing one.
3: thinks Jeb is the governor of Texas
From actions:
4: essentially kicked the United States off of some quite important commitees with his killall attitude.
5: Went from the largest budget surplus to the largest DEFICIT in eighteen months.
6: most europeans consider HIM to be a threat to world secutiry
Just speculation:
7: You know that George Bush Sr. had an assasination attempt by what they think was Hussein. . . hmm, overt coup d`etat (violation of international law) what a payback!
I actually am not a father, but have run BBSs where kids surf way back and participated in forums with kids present, as a tech who does it professionally, so here are some tips: If you have to actually control where the kids go, the better routers have IP blocking. To a degree you can then block domains like those that hold goatsex and the worst of the junk from even displaying-- the kids cannot get there as the home router is blocking them. However, if your kids more and more go elsewhere to surf (which you will know by them being gone and not surfing from home), you then know the rules are more strict than they will accept, especially if the friend's houses they go to are houses where the kids or parents have computers with internet access. If you must enforce heavy handed rules, there are several routes to use: 1. Parental content control software that filters out the obvious porn, which will get about 75% of the utter trash as far as seeing it. Many public libraries also log where folks go, and use IP control rules to disallow the obvious junk sites, and also content block. 2. Least likely to be disturbed is hardware based control or a funneling box(computer that acts as content prefilterer and surfing logger and blocker) that has a hardened O\S (say BSD or Astaro Linux) AND has email filtering and acts like a home email server while killing viruses. THAT machine needs to be off-limits to the kids AND local password login protected. Then the parents get to program it so things best not discovered by an 11 year old by accident but allowable for a 15 year old can be blocked by the machine IP of the party trying to surf. This box could be a 1 GHz CPU with two network cards, one to cable modem and one to a switch that the other boxes are hooked to, IF it mostly does traffic and email processing and some limited IP filtering. But basicly, kids will get tired of the same old junk after a while, it will take varying amounts of time and each kid's\youth's saturation point will vary. But the younger ones need more protection than the 15 and up crowd which WILL get exposed to what is out there elsewhere if you control too heavily and filter email too aggressively. Ror the younger crowd, I am 50 almost and am an older guy, take what I say with an ounce or two of salt if you want, but for parents that is why things are in hardware for that kind of control to get the most customized and personbalized to family values results. Precanned such boxes are not cheap, though Symantec does sell a box series that does most of this (not software, hardware that is a 1U rack mountable or which can be put on a shelf in a decently ventilated and cooled area). They are of the class Security Appliances. Some parts of this can be done by better firewall routers. John.
>Of course, if being honor students, gifted muscicians, eagle scouts, and a 4 of the damn nicest people I've ever had the joy of knowing is "messed up" I'm also damn glad I don't take this view.
Such a positive message... why on earth post as an AC? Guilt, perhaps? My retort is NOT positive, so at least I have a reason.
Children are not clones of you.
Children are not a "second chance" for you to live your life better, again.
If you feel pride talking to other parents like you did above... will you consider the possibility you are the driving force in their lives. What drives YOU to drive them? Is it a fear or a phobia?
Children are not trophies.
Children are SMARTER than you. They know when you are hiding something, and worse still they know when you are lying to them.
I grew up in a wealthy New Hampshire town... I was and knew "plenty" of kids like you describe. It is a fascade. If you use guilt and shame to manipulate these souls, and learn not to interpret their feeble signals you will someday regret it. They will rebel to spite you, while maintaining the fascade you desperately want.
If your son someday is "captain of the football team", but commits a fatally drives his car into someone else... if they maintain good grades but become addicted to heroin or cocaine.... if your daughter remains "pure" down there, but has alternatively given oral or anal sex to many boys (or girls)... if your children quietly attempt suicide 4 or 5 times before age 19... if your son turns into a master manipulator.
If any of this happens, please remember that while it is 100% your fault (they are not adults), we'll remember that "you" are only human, right? We'll feign sympathy at the water cooler.
For the 11 and 12 year old, I would restrict their browsing to a "whitelist" set of URLS. For the 15 year old, unless they're really immature, they're probably old enough to browse what they want with the rules you already have in place.
Let them be kids while they can, they learn enough crap at school. They'll grow up soon enough, and let's hope it's without seeing goatse.cx
I've got 3 computers in my bedroom. One linux computer to control the network/internet, one dell triboot for testing and developement, and my dualboot lappy for just about everything. The only rules from my parents are: don't get us (the parents) in trouble (eg. we don't want you giving our email/phone/credit card out to pr0n sites) and if we (the parents) want to use the internet we have priority. Works great. Giving kids some trust and privacy isn't always a bad thing. I've also heard from my friends that computer time/useage based on grades can work, however this needs to be done carefully so that you don't encourage lying just to use the computer.
-Tim Louden
Ask Slashdot: "How should I raise my children ?"
After I saw that I just can't wait for the "Ask Slashdot : How can I date more ?" story...
(Now back to my pr0n dl... what, only 653 megs retrieved ?)
Thomas Miconi
I have a Linux box used as a router/mail server etc. When I got suspicious about what my kids were doing up in their room I'd just pop open an ethereal window. It turns out most of the secret stuff was just gossip. Remember, there are NO secrets on the un-encrypted Internet.
Ok, how is the parent offtopic? Looks to me like some asshole is just trying to push an agenda. And sorry for posting AC, but I'm not giving up karma to assholes like this.
The reason i say this is that if they are underage, and living in my house, being suppored by me.. they only have the privacy and rights that I give them. Has nothing to do with fair, its reality.
Its part of being a child.. and 15 IS a child.. regardless of what they want to belive.
Once they are ADULTS and on their own, they can make their own rules.
Not saying im not reasonable with things, but those are the rules in my house. Simple.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
We are talking about a man who needs no further justification for his actions than "That's what I want to do" and "That's what will promote me".
Hey! Just like Bush!
If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
All emails are copied to auditor. Hotmail is logged to a file via tcpdump. I haven't felt the need to read them yet, but if there is a sudden change in behavior, or an apparent effort to hide something, it'll be there. The youngins are aware that the admin knows all and sees all, up front.
who are those slashdot people? they swept over like Mongol-Tartars.
I think that situations similar to that will (and have) played out in all societies. When a populace disagrees with their government enough, and their government refuses to peacefully disband, then revolution is inevitable. And I think that, in the end, a form of democratic governments will be installed after the revolution.
Your point on cultural differences is well taken. Though, these too will be lessened in the future, I think, though it is a slow process. European permissive attitudes towards sex and drugs is starting to make inroads here in the US, and though moral conservatives would have you believe otherwise, I think they will eventually prevail because they are more in line with how our population actually behaves. Different cultures, will of course, continue to have differences...but freedom of information and government transcends cultural differences, and apply on a much more basic level.
I do believe I'm babbling now, so I think I'll stop. ;)
~~~
kthx
I'm pretty new at parenting (my kids are 3 and 1.5 years old) but I can tell you it's one of those life-altering events that swings your politics violently to the right!
No matter how hard you try as a parent, you still have very little "face time" compared with friends, television, and popular media like the internet. And I believe a responsible parent will practice a certain amount of censorship to swing the balance in their favour at least until they know their children are ready to be exposed to the real world.
Placing a computer in your child's room is not a mistake. Giving unfettered access to the internet to young children is. A child of four-to-twelve I think should have restricted access to the internet, with it starting out by allowing access to only certain approved sites (a four-year would be thrilled surfing Barney's website, and doesn't need access to much else). A twelve-year old should have access to a lot more (news sites, etc).
;-)
But by the time a person reaches their adolescent years, you should start relaxing the harness quite a bit.
Restricting a person from surfing does nothing but make them surf more secretively or from other locations (friends' houses). And, adolescents need their feeling of privacy. I'm not saying free roam of porn sites, but the quick closing of a window can be as innocent as trying to keep you from reading an IM to a friend about how unfair you are
There are technical things you can do if you're truly suspicious of your child. Things like having a firewall that can log URLs and do "content filtering". Sonicwall Firewall Appliances (www.sonicwall.com) can do this and can email you a logfile of all URLs surfed to. You can restrict "adult" sites, which will probably block a lot of legitamate sites as well, but is probably a lot more preferrable to your child than the feeling of you over their shoulder all the time.
In the end tho, it does come down to trust. When a person has reached 15, they have independent thought and desires that you may not agree with. While I agree it's your job to keep them safe and to try to steer them on a path you want, you do have to be willing to loosen the reigns and take a step back. A 15 year old surfing porn is natural. If it wasn't a dirty website it'd be a Playboy under the mattress or a movie stashed somewhere else.
Just keep an eye on things, but try not to be overbearing about it.
My kids have computers in their room. I moved their computers from a switch to a hub, put a linux box running snort with keyword capture, send a SMB popup to their computers if they hit a key word and log it. I made sure I demonstrated the setup in front of their friends. No problem. They could always bypass the keywords with creative searches but, they never know what the keywords are!
WTF? "Spare the rod..." is a saying. The moral is that letting children do whatever they like without consequence leaves them ill-prepared to deal with the world without their parents. The only reason physical violence is alluded to in the saying is because at the time it was popularised, beating children when they misbehaved was common.
If you actually took the time to read the post you were replying to, you would see that he advocated taking the computer out of the room as a consequence of misbehaviour - not beating the kids.
Teaching your children to use marijuana is utterly irresponsible and completely hypocritical. Let me tell you why...
Marijuana should, at best, be a choice. It should also be an informed choice. I get along fine without it as do most people. My first drink was a glass of wine at around 7 or 8, but I asked for it. My parents didn't stop me, but they told me what the consequences were in a gentle way, both health and legal, and now I don't have any inclination of abusing it. Currently, marijuana possession is illegal, even in Canada (you just get fined heavily for it now supposedly but that's a whole other topic). Why would you willingly expose your child to an illegal activity? Your responsibility is to get your child to be a productive and responsible adult. Exposing them to a substance which is illegal in most of the world exposes them to potential criminal charges. How would you like your kid to have a criminal record and be unable to find a job because you smoked a joint with them early on? Just buying it automatically exposes you to criminals who are less inclined to stay on the right side of the law for other activities which, in itself, is no good example. I'm not claiming that you should have no choice, but you should fully flush out the consequences of possession - not possessing it means never worrying, possessing it means feeling good once in a while but possibly getting caught by the police, expensive lawyer bills, permanent criminal record, long term consequences of chronic marijuana use, etc.. Note that this has nothing to do with your personal opinions on marijuana and whether you feel it is right or wrong for it to be used and its legality. Just don't mix the two for your child.
I also read one of your responses saying how all drugs should be treated the same. You obviously have no idea of the physiological effects of some drugs. Illegal drugs like heroin and meth, and legal drugs like oxycontin and xanax, all eventually remove your will to stop. Drugs like LSD can make you permanently psychotic on the first hit or with extended repeated use. It's possible that everyone is as strong as you to be able to choose to take it once or occasionally, and you can't assume that your child or anyone else will be able to. Fortunately this usually isn't the case with marijuana and a few other drugs, but I'm not talking about marijuana in this second paragraph either.
Please don't misinform your child, and don't discount this information because I'm not trying to prove you wrong. Let your choices be yours, and inform your child about the consequences of making certain choices with the right information. That's the best anyone can or should do regardless of personal opinion.
I'm a teenager and I would not live in a world of Internet restrictions.
The reason is that I'm very interested to computer science and I learn to use linux and to program in python.
So, for future programmers, coders, hackers (in the good sense), it's a bad idea to restrict them like restricting internet hours and stuff like that because it's a restriction to their learning.
I heard a thing like that from one of my friends. He wanted to install linux on it's own machine and it's parents did not let him do so.
Hey, if I want to be on the internet at 3 in the morning, if I want to format my dos partition, install linux, go on the internet on it, I don't want to have any kind of restrictions because we don't learn to program only by reading books.
If you trust your kids, then trust them on the internet. It's that simple. I've had a computer in my room throughout high school...before that, i had a laptop on my lap which created just as much privacy with the old screens that you couldn't see unless you were staring purpendicular to them.
I don't see the big problem. The information is at your fingertips on the internet, but it's ALL there. And regardless of the evils that are out there, it is impossible to get raped, molested, abused, murdered, or held up at gunpoint over a computer: in order for those consequences to be had, you have to have physical contact with another person (or at least be near one for the last two).
And as far as the evil information goes, wouldn't you want your son or daughter to face life with at least a knowledge about what they may or may not be considering...it's a lot more dangerous to have an adolescent daughter go on a date with a horney guy who can convince her that virgins can't get pregnant or some other garbage than it is to have someone find out the easy way (through a browser) that masturbation works. Even if there are predators in chat rooms and the like, they can't really do anything over IM/IRC/etc..
I think the only really important rule is that no one (paretnts included)should divulge personal information (name, address, phone #, ss#, bank/credit card info, etc.) over the internet unless you're really sure that the other person 1) is to be trusted and 2) had a legitimate reason for knowing.
In Kevin Mitnick's book, The Art Of Deception, he says that social engineering (manipulation for information) happens because people want to be helpful, and repeatedly makes comments about how people will usually tell you whatever you want to know if you ask the right way.
And as far as the closing things quickly rule, i think it's complete garbage. When i'm talking to my girlfriend or even close friends online, i'd almost rather wipe my HDD than let my parents read it, even if it's as inocuous as saying goodnight or planning dinner and a movie...parents just didn't need to know. How would you feel if you were planning a date with your wife, and your kids walked in...you'd probably put the planning on hold. And if they asked, you'd tell them, "we're planning a date," but you wouldn't give them a written transcript of the convorsation, which is what you'd be asking your kids to do.
It's one thing to have a contrary opinion of the law, but another entirely to accept it. It doesn't need to be done cheerfully, but it needs to be done both for your sake and your child's sake.
Al-Quaida shows signs of being far more interested in infamy and killing than defending Islam. Bin Ladin is using Islam as an excuse for his reign of terror. Muslims are often the victims of his terror, and his actions are often against the well-known precepts of Islam (and, I'm sure, a lot of the lesser-known).
Some of the people following him (including most of the suicide bombers) do honestly believe the diatribe that Bin-Ladin spouts. Them, I would classify as naive, deluded and/or less evil. Bin Ladin, on the other hand, shows every sign of understanding the evil that he's perpetrating.
That having been said, Saddam has killed more people than Bin-Ladin over a longer period of time, so I'd agree that he's more evil... BIn Ladin has simply killed more Westerners than Saddam. (not more evil -- just more infamous).
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
Values:
You want your children to adhere to your values, morals and beliefs. Maybe you believe that the human body is a thing that should be covered, and never seen until you are 18. Maybe You are against your children seeing what you consider teh objectification of women (or whatever). Maybe you just think pr0n is bad.
It's a branch of ethics. Simply put, of right and wrong. You believe that the internet contains (morally) wrong content. (I'd have to agree with you). I'm guessing you want to restrict their access to it until you feel they are able to respond to it in a (morally) right way. Kudos.
My convcern is this: Have you evaluated why you have these values, and how have you determined that your children are unable to respond appropriately to the material?
If your moral platform is based on, "Because it's wrong." (thank you Buffy), without any more depth, you may need to reevaluate it. If you have determined that your children are unable to have the correct response, based on, "They're not old enough", well, same problem.
I think it is important to monitor and restrict what your children have access to (in teh real world, not just cyberspace) but there are limits. Which bring me to the next, and bigger issue at stake.
Privacy:
The issues regarding privacy are the same no matter whether you are a 12 year old, or a country of a billion people. The big one: Why do you want to invade privacy?
I'll assume it is to protect your children. Which takes us back to values. But what about some of teh many things discussed in this topic? Is it any of your business what they are saying to the person they are dating? Maybe you think yes, maybe not. But you need to determine that. What if they are looking up buying a suprise for you. Do you need to spoil that. Or even more interesting. Maybe they have some huge (to them) life problem, that they just don't feel comfortable talking to a parent about, and are looking it up online, or in communication with a councilling agancy online? Of course there's the other side of the line. Sexual predators, scams, and a million other hazzards.
Privacy vs. protection. Every government in the world has rules and regulations regarding it. What's yours?
One more issue.
Parenting:
In alot of ways, parenting is a balance of the two issues. I'm not a parent. May never be one. But I am an orphan, and as aresult, have had a fascination with parents, children, and their relationship. I've watched alot of families. Lived with a few of them. Studies some child and family psychology. Talked to a lot of people with good families. Probably talked to more with bad families. On thing I'vve observed is that love is more important than anything. It helps to keep you from doing dumb things. Now I'm not suggesting any parent doesn't love their children. What I am sayig is that not everything a parent does for their children is out of love. Sometimes it's done because "that's the way it is". No reason really. I've seen parrents do some really bone-headed things. But in cases where they did it out of love, the damage seems to have been less than it could have been.
There is a warning though. Something about the road to hell. Love isn't a catch all. It is, IMHO, the best place to start. From there, move on to reason, then action.
I hope some of this makes sense. If any of it is blatently wrong (other than teh spelling) let me know.
Two Rules For Success:
1) Never tell people everything you know.
Our kids need us to be parents. They have tons of friends. They need to know that there is someone who is thinking what is best for them and setting rules to guide them.
Personally, I think children should not have computers in their rooms. All the literature we have read on studying and raising kids have told us not to do this. You need a location in the house that is conducive to studying and that is where the computers should be.
It also makes it a family experience, something to help the entire family bond more.
Take a room in your house (the family room or den) and convert it into a Study/Game area. That way you can ensure that your kids are doing what they should be doing and not being introduced to things that they are just not ready for.
The loss was yours. Reptile Labs consulting?
Yep, you got a firm handle. And if you're 48,
your dad was lucky to get you out of the house
in the first place.
I must be a brick short of a full load. This thread has turned into a sceed fiesta. Where is the scientific evidence that sighting a naked women turns a young boy into a mass murderer, or a pimp, or a dealer? Is there is some basic social knowledge that is mysteriously lacking from my genetic repetoire? Where does this knowledge come from, and why don't I have it?
Maybe this goes right back to genesis. From the time we first discover sex, we feel guilty about it. Then we all rush around as adults to protect our children from becoming the horrible depraved adults our generation has become, and our parents generation, and all the begatters to the beginning of time.
No wait, they have done research on masturbation, the majority of adult males have an urge to clean the pipes the day before being reunited with their lust interest. According to research, it improves semen quality to call up a fresh set of reserves. Who would have ever guessed that sexual reflexes and instincts were associated with reproductive fitness?
I don't children in this society need to be told much about the birds and the bees. Perhaps it would be better to update our schools with a dopamine education class. Here is dopamine: human folly boiled down to molecular dimensions. Vonnegut wrote a novel about a Martian army with transmitters embedded in their minds to control them (Sirens of Titan). That seems like an unnecessary redundancy. We are already under the control of a hostile molecular force. Perhaps there is a better way to educate children that scrubbing internet connections and pretending we have not yet discovered the molecular snake.
Pretty much, yep.
The point is to have the computer in plain site of at least one parent while it's in use. Their disc shuffling, proxying, and circumventing of security won't help them if they're being watched; that's the whole point. I haven't given consideration to what I'd do when no parents are home. I may have the house disable all web activity when no parents are home (how fool-proof that would be, I really have no idea).
If they circumvent my measures, oh well; I've done the best I know to do. I believe that it's still my responsibility as a parent to take measures. If my kids want to circumvent them, or go to a friend's house, etc., that's their choice, and they are responsible for all of their choices. So are parents. So am I.
seriously, im a 17 year old guy living at home before college next year... that fact that you place such rules as that on your kids is ridiculous... they are going to do their thing wether there are rules or not. The fact that there are rules about it keeps the idea of doing that all the more present, and all the more tempting in their minds. I close windows even if im NOT doing anything bad, jsut because people are nosy. As for computer security, its a damn good way to teach your kid to learn to hack. Made myself famous at school for using a secure proxy server to skip around it, nuff said.
And yes, everyone DOES lie about what they do online, my dad, your dad... your grandpa... the internet is a filthy place, but the bible is also a dirty book, im not saying take it away, jsut show your kids the better side of it, dont get caught doing anything bad by your kids (because we know you do too), and turn a blind eye to it... unless one day you find they have a 30GB folder named "pron" in which case... you delete it.
The whole subject is far better left in the dark... and as for piracy... DUH they are going to D/L music and other things. Best not to even bring it up until u are sure they are doing it, dont worry about songs... but when they start selling windows XP cracks to kids at school.... time to stop it and give em a lecture on how economics works.
As for Spyware, if you REALLY feel the need to pry that much, go ahead, Iopus offers a great one, but DONT GET CAUGHT, it will really hurt your kids to learn that you have to spy on them, and cant talk to them straight about it, of course different circumstances call for different aspects... if you daughter is setting up midnight rendevous with guys 2 states away... a keylogger might be in order.
Princess Lea put it best when she told darth vader that the tighter they squeezed the more starsystems
would slip through his grasp, this applies to your kids... more rules, more rebellion. Not a SINGLE person reading this hasnt broken a law put fourth by the US gov't, why? because there are too many, a certain ammount of deviance is human... nay, physical nature - entropy is the word... add pressure... and the reaction speeds up
let it lie, watch their grades, teach by example, and if something gets out of control, dont go underhanded, TALK TO THEM!!
- Aubrey Bailey - aubrey.ba@dmailman.com
Parents do have some power over children you know.
A girl doing it with a horse...unless your dad was pretty whacked out. I followed a link in someones sig once...Holy crap!...
;), but the nature of porn we had access to before the net is vastly different than what kids today could happen upon. Rape sites, murder sites, beastiality, etc... again, if it's simulated or legal, and your an adult, enjoy your fantasies, but realize that what required a lot of hunting through adult video stores before is now one click away.
Now, don't get me wrong. If it's not illegal in your state, and your of legal age, I say enjoy what you like
We apologise for the fault in this post. Those responsible have been sacked. -- Signed RICHARD M. NIXON
All kids are different. You may need to have different rules for your different kids; otherwise, the older one will feel like (s)he is being treated like a little kid. One may be more trustworthy than another one, and so might earn looser restrictions. BUT...
Be reasonable. Don't make rules you can't -- or aren't willing to -- enforce. Making a no-getting-off quickly rule is not going to work, because the enforcement of it will enevitably make you look like, or actually be, a monster. Consider:
...
- 15-yr. old gets personal e-mail from friend mentioning friend's personal life;
- 15-yr. old happens to click out of e-mail right as you walk in;
- you inquire, sensing rule violation;
- 15-yr. old balks, not wanting to betray confidence;
- fight ensues
In that spirit, I would agree with having some sort of netlog that the kids know about. You can explain -- truthfully! -- that you *need* to know if some dirty old man is hitting on them, or if they are doing something that might expose you to hackers or ID thieves. You can also explain that you *want* to know if they are looking at things they shouldn't. Having such a setup will not keep them from all evil, but it will establish an enforceable house rule: no $BADTHING on our net.
But as some posters have already pointed out, the only way to wage the moral war is to discuss issues with them (prayer is also good, if you happen to be a believer). /. posts I've read /SARCASM.
:-)
/. disclaimer: body image is only one cause out of several for eating disorders.
Your kids may think about porn, for example, only in terms of "is sex good or bad?" SARCASM much like some
You can treat them like adults and get them to think about the other problems with porn: how women are often abused and/or taken advantage of to get the pix; how it creates future problems for marriage by portraying female sexuality as quick and easy; how selling sex and selling with sex is a feature even of main-stream media; how girls often react to the pressure to look sexy by becoming bulemic or anorexic.*
You might even get gutsy with the 15-year old and talk briefly about your own marital relations. That would mean far more to him than pictures of Portman.
Good luck! I'm sure I'll be rethinking these issues in about 10 years. My wife just delivered our first child this past Friday.
*
Human being (n.): A genetically human, genetically distinct, functioning organism.
It just occured to me that the hysterical paranoia of these parents is deterimental to the constitutional foundation of American society. Please, for the sake of humanity, purge yourselves of this sentinal meme so you don't poison the next generation of parents with the idea that the censorship of informaton will somehow keep people "safe" from "potential harm". As good-intentioned as you may be you will not achieve your goals but may very well retard your child's concept of Freedom and Personal Liberty. This will perpetuate a cycle of people going out of their way to infringe on other people's rights [sic.] because you know whats appropriate or inappropriate for someone else. Respect your child's rights as you would any stranger, but offer guidance when they need it - which is very different from playing the role of authoritarian dictator. Wake up and get real!
If it were my school, they'd just pirate it anyway...
BTW, what exactly is softwrae?
Any "non-parents" that read /. and are replying to this thread aren't your average "non-parents" and very probably know more about computers and networking than their parents, which makes their situation VERY different from yours I'm sure.
Personally, I wouldn't have a job if I didn't have a computer in my room. My parents weren't exactly computer literate and I taught myself most of what I now know. If I didn't run the computers in my house I probably wouldn't have attempted to "learn to hack", I wouldn't have found the Hacker Howto by ESR (like him or not, the document points you in a good direction that many would otherwise not find), and I wouldn't have learned to use Unix. This last part would mean that I would be working some dead end part-time job afterschool at McDonald's or something.
Computers let kids learn for themselves. And besides, everyone knows that you alt+tab (or ctl+tab in KDE for better effect) to get rid of incriminating evidence. No need to move the mouse.
Brandon
I have a son who's 10, and very much into computers. In the last year or so that interest has expanded from desktop games to the online world. Our solution is simple:
Every computer on our home network runs through a proxy server. I have a simple script that grabs the access list from the proxy server once a week and tabulates the results of where online we have been as a family, and how many times. This list is posted on the refrigerator for all to see.
At age 10 my son thinks nothing of this. It is a source of mild curiousity, and an occaisional discussion topic ("what's this site, and why'd you go there?"). Later, as he gets older, it will occur to him that wherever he goes online -- indeed wherever any of us go online -- is a matter of public knowledge, and that he should choose his destinations accordingly.
At some later point he'll no doubt figure out how to hack his way around this, and browse anonymously. But I figure if he's sophisticated enough to figure that out, then he's sophisticated enough to go where he wants online, do what he wants, and make his own judgments.
Obviously you didn't actually read the Qur'an.
OK, I look at porn from time to time. It does not do much for me and I vastly prefer real company. Marriage is a great thing. My wife is as grossed out by the porn I look at as you might be looking at pictures of members of your own sex engaged in painful and degrading acts.
Will I care much if my daughter grows up to look at porn? No. I think she will be bright enough to understand what she's looking at. I don't have a son yet, but I think he will be bright too. None of my kids is going to flunk out of school over porn. I've got an open and honest relationship with my wife and my girl. It's that simple.
Oh yeah, here's anther few simple things to do:
EOM.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Do you really think that pornographers give a s***t about what the models want? They're entire concern is $$$! If they thought they could get away with it (and make lots of MONEY) they'd be doing snuff flicks. Granted there are a few models who enjoy their work, but there are just as many (if not more) who are somehow (boyfriend/pimp, drugs, violence, psycological abuse, some evil combination of all of the previous) coerced.
Heck. I go to the front page of the NYTimes and there is an huge advertisment with a almost-undressed sultry girl... Victoria Secret. You can't avoid sex.
As someone who's not quite post-teen yet, and who looked at whatever the hell he felt like growing up, and who is perfectly capable of sustaining healthy relationships, thank you -- I just want to draw a distinction between online and the town. You wouldn't let your kids wander around a city without knowing where they were, because they could get raped, seduced, cracked out, mugged, diseased and bruised. You wouldn't let them wander around online because they might be exposed to information you find offensive. There's lots of information on the internet that is indeed offensive, but that level of danger simply does not justify the same limits on freedom that real-life danger does.
Is there a way to fix the page widening on this article?
/. fixed this a while back.
I think
(yes, I know that some browsers still display it properly, but I have to run this broswer, and I can't read the comments)
Before making my statements I should qualify them by providing a little info on myself. I am 18, I come from an upper-middle class family and was raised with fundamental christian values, in a conservative part of the country. Like most of my peers I have had a computer in my room with unbridled internet access since the age of 13. I'm also looking a 3 year stint in Federal Prison, and with these damn mandatory sentences it WON'T be probation.
Starting during adolescence I began to develop a healthy streak of rebelliousness. I renounced my religion. Picked up liberal political views, and partook in the common shennanigans of most adolescents. Unfortunately, all of these were major taboos to my parents. They cracked down on my aberrant behavior, and my contradictory beliefs were treated with confusion or scorn. Naturally I came to see them as adversaries, or the enemy. Basicallly people who COULD NOT be trusted. I began to spend more and more time on the computer, since I felt I was being persecutted in the real world. At first it was merely for academic, or gaming purposes, but other aspects of the net began to pique my interest. Eventually I got caught up in numerous illicit activies; spamming, carding, cracking, etc... The reason? I would say for inate thrill of it and due to the fact that it was terribly easy to bring in some extra money. At the outset I was on top of my game, even though my activities were destructive, they gave me a sense of accomplishment which really boosted the self-esteem. Not to mention the fact that I was making almost as much money as my parents. Eventually, however, the stress of hiding my activies from friends and family, the fear of consequences, and the seclusion that comes from being on the computer for 12+ hours at a time led me to become severally depressed. I no longer cared about the consequences or life for that matter, and I began slipping. Eventually I was arrested; thus began my legal troubles.
I think the one thing I most needed to prevent such an outcome was a support network. Either a groups of friends or family members , with whom, I could speak candidly and without fear. Had my parents connected with me in some manner, and established the fact that they were on my side things would have wound up very differently. Rather that arbitrarily shouting out orders, I wished respectfull reasoning would have been used. At sixteen, like most other teenagers, I viewed myself as an adult. Obviously at such an age, one lacks the wisdom and knowledge necessary to operate in our society, and in my opinion, it is the parents duty to impart such information on the teenager. Failure to do so, due to neglect, lack of trust, ignorance or a host of other reasons, can be in my opinion a fatal blow to the adolescent.
As for monitoring computer access, I think the parent should surreptiously do so until the child turns 18. Stand off and take a passive approach to the monitoring. If the need to step in arises, do so in a respectful manner, and instead of going off on a tirade, listen to the child's reasoning for engaging in the abberrant activities, and then offer your own counterperspectives.
You discuss topics of masturbation when they are young enough so that they understand what is happening to them; and so that they don't look like fools at school, etc. If you don't open up a communication about "touchy" subjects before their friends get to them, then you have lost... when they have a question, they will go to their friends (who most likely will provide mis-information) rather than you. Now, once they've hit a decent age where they may be masterbating... you don't need to bring it up anymore, right?
Also, if you cannot discuss masterbation how can you resonably talk about abstenence? I went along time with girlfriends where masterbation was part of the process; perfectly healthy and now that I'm married the same rules apply -- open masterbation prevents sexual issues in the marriage.
I put the kids' computers in my office with me. They have some privacy in that my back is turned to them and I won't read over their shoulders, but something objectionable is likely to catch my eye as I go by.
No it's the "That skank has all the diseases" meme/reality that causes all the harm. The "Degradation" meme is a disease defence. BTW Hepatitus C and AIDS are still incurable. Aren't alternative lifestyles lethally fun?
LIVE spelled backwards is EVIL. Death is a BAD thing.
I feel it neccessary to introduce myself a bit at this point. I'm an 18 year old male. As such, this issue has been very near my heart for the last 5 or so years. You're absolutely right that your kids will just sneak past your rules, but possibly not for the reasons you expect. My first problems with my parents over computer-related issues stemmed from the fact that they had absolutely no clue what I was doing...and that made them nervous. I'm a programmer, website editor, and server administrator. They were afraid that I would break their new computer when, in reality, I knew much more about computers than they did. Most of what I've done online has been fairly harmless, yet it's been a constant issue of strife. I think parents have a tendancy to think their offspring are "spending too much time online." Such an assumption may be justified, but it also might be quite unfounded. In my case, most of my time online is spent reading or coding. Yes, I chat with my friends, but I'm actually learning while online; what's more, I'm enjoying it. I'll assume you want your children to enjoy learning. There are a lot of productive ventures in which they can engage and nobody ever does just one thing at a time. If you see your child chatting, he or she is likely also reading, doing school research, writing an email, and editing their website at the same time. That being said, rather than making a bunch of rules, you might want to talk to them about internet safety. Depending on how old your kids are and of what sex they are, you might be worried about their safety. Sitting down and talking to them, especially if they're younger teens, about not giving out identifying information is probably a good idea. You should remember to tell them WHY. Children often feel patronized when they don't know why rules are in place or when the answer to that question is "just because." If you do that, they'll likely just break the rules. If you've got male teens, you're probably more worried about porn than safety. That being said, I think it's fairly obvious that any determined male of any age can get porn, with or without a computer. Rather than restricting their computer use, spend some time explaining why you think porn is wrong (assuming you do). This will go much farther than any rules. So why are your kids hiding things from you? Why do kids rush in a flourish of clicks to close every window when you walk by? Likely because they just want some privacy. A lot of what teens do on the internet is private. They talk to friends and keep journals. I'd hope you're not one of those parents who listens in a conversations or reads your daughter's diary. If you do, I can tell you it will lead to more problems than it could ever prevent. You have to remember that teens need privacy, too. What they're doing is likely not harmful at all, but really just something they'd rather not share with you. As a parent, you need to remember that your kids do have a right to privacy. You didn't tell your parents everything, but you're alright. The bottom line: treat your kids with respect. If you treat them like adults, they'll likely behave as such; if you treat them as children, only jouvenile behavior can result. -Bl33d
Every windows user is a sadomasochist.
I have three daughters - 17, 12, 9.
/. - bald 40-something with kids, but if you live long enough, you will be looking for similar answers ;).
The 17 year old is not an issue anymore - as noted above, you gotta trust them at some point. She has earned my trust and this is no longer an issue. She (and her friends) know I'm quite capable of finding out anything and everything if I want to anyway.
My 12 year old is dyslexic. Letter transposition is part of her issue, so we have dubbed her 'porn queen' because, as most of us know, most of the typo sites are porn or at least re-direction sites to places 12 year olds should not travel. I'm using We-Blocker (Web Blocker). Its free (donations accepted) and it works, but it really seems to consume CPU cycles on her workstation.
I'm looking for something I can setup on a proxy server - Windows or FreeBSD if possible. Any suggestions from the masses.
I realize I'm the odd man out on
-peb
Nobody thinks Saddam Hussain is evil?
I'm sure all those millions who were murdered in mass graves don't think he's evil.
And Al Queda just goes around blowing people (including themselves) up. I bet all the victims think he's deep down just got a "different perspective" and they accept that.
And Hitler. All the school girls loved him. Just ignore all the millions of Jews and others he slaughtered. Focus on the little school girls who loved him. Since *they* loved him, everyone must! And he therefore can't possibly be evil.
"If you believe you're good, then you are"
This is what happens when subjectivity is used to replace actual coherant thought.
If I told you I was George Bush the President of the United States, you'd probably believe me. After all, *I* (hypothetically) believe it's true therefore it must be.
And who are you to use your brain and question *my* reality?
The only people who can't admit Saddam is evil and needed to go are Liberal wackjobs that can't accept that Bush had even one good reason to go to Iraq.
Only in your imaginary LSD filled fantasy world does no one outside the US think Saddam is evil.
The argument isn't "does Saddam need to go?" it's "were we justified in the means we used to do it?"
And the Bush administration used the fact he was evil as a reason to get him out of power from the beginning. If he wasn't evil there would be no point in disarming him.
Revisionist history at it's finest.
Ben
Work Safe Porn
The point is, people choose to be in those images.
Many images you run across are taken on the sly, or are of quite young people. These things absolutely discust me. But to deny that this nasty, underground market exists is wrongheaded.
I have no problem with my children seeing porn. I do have a problem with them seeing porn of a 15 year old girl with two things stuck in her and the expression on her face says something like "what did I do to deserve this?" It's sick and morally repugnant.
Unfortunately, the line between "good" porn and "bad" porn isn't easy to draw. When is porn a real choice (note: getting $5 for being shown nude is probably not a choice, but more an act of despiration).
With a 2400 baud modem, who needs rules?
Right...
Reports of that have been said to be "speculative at best"
Those awesome Iriqi's! They're so clever! And they did such a good job in the first war too!
What is your damn problem? Don't give them a direct network lin, have their computers connected through a Linux box with a firewall, filtering, packet sniffing, site blocking and constant dynamic logging of everything they do on it. You will have to go through that sometimes and clean it up, but you will know everything they do, or 95% of it. For the last 5% install a keyboard sniffer on their machine.
Have fun.
You can't handle the truth.
The question you're asking is good, but unfortunately it runs over all the other questions involved in raising a child, mostly privacy issues. A computer isn't a magical corrupting box that will bury your child in sin. If anything a computer is a source of personal empowerment. It lets you do/learn what you already want to do/learn, only better and faster in many cases. That's the most important thing to remember, until the user specifically tells it to do something, the computer does nothing. If your child has no interest in pornography or bombmaking, chances are very high that they would never attempt to find information on either of those things and, should they encounter such material, they just wouldn't be interested. If your child DOES have interest in such things, well, maybe you have some things to talk about with him/her. Keeping the knowledge away from them will only work for so long.
:)
I'll be honest, reading your proposed rules makes me angry. In my house, one's room was sacred territory. My parents had no right to know what I was doing in there, and no right to set foot inside without my permission. They had no desire to do those things, those were the rules they found acceptable for dealing with privacy. If I wanted to keep things from them, I did, and because of this my relationship with them is a lot better then it would otherwise have been. Heh and yes, if they made rules I didn't like I simply broke them because it suited me, until they realized that I was going to do what I wanted anyway (heh I was an EXTREMELY difficult child to raise). Now, these are the rules that worked for me, I don't know you or your children or your relationship, and everyone's different. But I can tell you that having that privacy didn't make me into a horrible person nor did it mean my parents didn't care about me. It was just our way of living
Even if you never actually intend to enforce your rules, or pry into your children's lives, the way your rules are stated makes it sound like you do. They can't close their door so you can always watch them, they can't close what they're doing if you come by so nothing they do can escape your notice, and they can't lie about what they were doing so even if you don't see anything you can just guess until they're forced to confess. Again, I fully admit tht I know nothing of you, your parenting, or your children, but just from these items I can say these rules sound very opressive, whatever your intent is.
In answer to your question, I'd say, let your kids have their privacy. Make sure they get out of their rooms every once in a while, talk to them as much as you can, be the best dad you can be, as I'm sure you're already doing. If you've been doing a good job so far, this shouldn't be much of an issue, your kids will already understand right from wrong and have a good moral foundation to stand upon as they face the world. And yes, everyone at some point lies about what they're doing on the net, people (children AND adults) need privacy. It's usually nowhere near as harmful as it sounds
I didn't have a computer until I was in my teens, and then I knew that my ISP could see everything I visited. I'm not sure if anybody was actually sitting there watching the list of sites I was visiting scroll by, or checking the logs, but it *was* a small ISP.
:D
There are packet sniffers and such that you could use to keep tabs on your children's Internet usage. Some of them even flash up images of what's loading in real time. If you make your kids aware that you can see everything they're doing on the Internet, that could be a good way of policing Internet usage. Plus, it would teach them to use encryption software for truly private communications
I have taken chat away from my teenage daughter. She's not allowed to IM anymore. This seems to have taken a lot of the conflict out of the family over internet usage.
This is easier to enforce with Linux than Windows but its still doable.
I also made it clear that I have installed net usage monitoring software on all family PCs and can check it anytime.
You might be teaching her something really good if this skill allows her to evade government and corporate surveillance in the future. This may be a skill that all children will need to avoid Big Brother.
It was definately a reasonable rule , fortunately, my kids aren't old enough to worry about IM...they just want to play games. But I've already made that same rule for my oldest...you had a clever and effective way to enforce it..and scare the bejeebers out of them!
(Background: 23 years as of yesterday, single male. Had my own PC since 6. Graduating with BS in CS from NJIT this December)
I would *never* think about denying a PC outside in my child's room. My father first bought a computer when I was the ripe age of 2 and I had my own PC (I guess if you consider an 8088 a PC) when I was about 6 or 7. Of course I didn't have Internet back then (it didn't exist), but I used to play merrily with my computer games and eventually picked up programming. If I didn't have that background there would be no way I know what I do today. However, I didn't get my first modem until I was in 8th grade (it was 33.6). My father was rather paranoid about viruses and wouldn't allow me one until I made a new close friend that had one. Once I realized the potential the provided, I immeadiately bought one.
The majority of us out there at or somewhat close to my age are probably in a similar ballpark - Their parents didn't have to worry about this back then because the Internet wasn't around so it does throw us in a rather unique situation. I think the thing to consider is providing a certain amount of freedom online yet still having somekind of control.
Another thing to consider is the age of the target user - obviously I think most would agree that young children should be denied ability to have free reign. Most children approaching adolescense (sp?) and young teens obviously will use the Internet a great deal today - I believe trust is a good thing to use, until it is violated. One possibility might be to install a logging proxy/gateway - and let the child know this, inform them that you can and will watch what they do (websites, chatrooms, etc... not private things such as IM's, e-mail's, etc) if you feel the need to. If the child isn't problematic to begin with I think it could work fairly well, however if they aren't good luck finding another solution.
# fuser -v
#
Isn't it great How most teens would actually make STRICTER RULES than what their parents currently have...and really snap down on enforcing them. I'd say "most" kids are getting about "just enough" internet rules from their parents...and are smart enough to know the don't HAVE to follow even the few rules their parents make...
Sir, you have so completely indicted yourself with that post that I can't think of anything to add.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
But what about all the heroic US soldiers liberating Iraq? Are they evil? By this narrow definition they are. Iraq had not directly attacked the USA when the USA invaded.
Anarchists never rule
Besides the point that they will look at what you do not want them to look at, they have violated your rules.
If they are not mature enough to follow your rules, then the are not ready to be trusted on the internet.
For you nay sayers, I would like to point out that early and constant exposer to pornograph has a determental effect on the childs ability to have relationships letter in life.
I would also like to point out that children are gullible as hell, and easy prey.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Without trying to rile you up, is it fair to the child that his or her "consent" is based off of something as arbitrary as how many revolutions s/he has made around the sun?
When modding "Informative", please make sure it both has a source and IS actually informative.
As a kid, there's not a right to absolute privacy. If you don't think your kids can handle it on their own, then keep their internet access in a "public" place...That Murphy guy has bets that you'll catch them if they get too far out of line!
When I was a teenager I was on all the BBSes, downloading Warez and looking at porn. Once the I got internet access newsgroups were always a good spot.
I found all sorts of things, some disgusting that I quickly deleted, other things interesting that I never really wanted to try (like how to build a bomb).
I had almost no parental control. My single mother didn't have a clue about computers (though she did write her yearly christmas letter on Word Perfect! and used the computer to print out labels) Sure the computer was in the livingroom but there were times when I would get home from school and no one was home and she never really read what was on the screen. She certainly didn't know anything about warez and pirating software. Her biggest concern was that I was tying up the phone line.
However, she did spend time with me and taught me right and wrong. She gave me the knowledge and ability to make my own decisions. While I'm sure she wouldn't approve of some things, I think I was better prepared than most when I went away to college. While I brewed beer in the dorms while underage, I didn't get hammered all the time and I've never done drugs. However, leading a sheltered life only causes people to rebel when they get away from their parents for the first time. In college, no one is there to watch over them. The most colleges do is sometime block certain filesharing ports because of lawsuits.
Let them have a little privacy and a little fun now so they don't explode when the get out on their own. But most importantly, spend some time with them and set a good example, it makes more of an impression than you'd think.
Install a firewall and set up egress filtering. Remove the "ANY outgoing" filter line so nobody gets open access to the internet. Add your system in as getting open access. Let your kid request a site they want to visit. You go there yourself. Check it out completely. When you're satisfied with it, program your firewall to allow your kid's computer unfettered access to that ONE IP address of that ONE site. MAKE SURE YOU HAVE PHYSICAL ACCESS CONTROL OF THE FIREWALL, INTERNET CONNECTION, AND YOUR SYSTEM. Your kid must never be allowed to get his hands on them. Also, lock down your BIOSes with passwords, disallow CDROM and password booting, and install DEEP FREEZE on your kids computer to disallow lasting changes in their system. Beyond this, you might look into further content filtering software for installation on your kid's system. If you don't know how to do all these steps, I have reasonable rates.
Indeed... This is a classic TROLL. A post in the vain of amorlist philosophy and its wonders. IT'S
A TROLL.
Hmm?
Last I knew, professional prostitutes (the legalized, licensed, Nevada kind) had a *much* lower STD rate than any other population segment -- given that in order to be licensed for their profession they require knowledge on best practices for avoiding contracting STDs and identifying those posessing them, are obliged submit to biweekly blood tests, etc. I'd expect that those involved in (professional) porn would have a similarly low rate, given the similar need for their employers to require regular testing pre-employment.
Finally, remember, we're discussing porn. Not prostitution, not sex clubs, not "alternative lifestyles", porn. I haven't heard of anyone getting an STD from a magazine yet.
bah, sounds like the people who wrote that up were those typical psycho righteous people who are paranoid and think children dont deserve a say in anything, rights, or privacy, they're the type that think they own their children to a slave-like extent.
or are fanatically religious..
my cousin who lives with her mom in virginia has no rights whatsoever, her door got removed from the hinges, she isnt allowed to watch tv, go online, or even play outside.
just go to school, play on her soccer team, do homework, eat and then sit in her room quietly until her set bed time.
she's 17 btw.
we also knew a family that did all that, and didnt even let their kids play sports.
the oldest son ended up getting into hardcore drugs and robbed a house, the oldest daughetr got into heavy partying and dresses like a goth (she's 20 or so now), the second oldest is starting to get rebellious (well last time we talked to her) and the youngest smokes..
overbearing restrictions on teenagers is bad, because eventually, they do rebel, in very bad ways, that usually get them killed, or jailed.
overbearing restrictions is just an axcuse for a parent to not have to parent their children, or deal with typical children problems.
however, 10-12 year olds need to be watched online. I had a parent breathe down my neck when their son got on my irc network and was shown goatse. I was threatened with a lawsuit, then I pointed to the fact that my network wasnt for children. and explained that the internet isnt a fun fantasy land. it's very much like the real world. (in a sense) You're still dealing with people, real human beings on the other side of the wire. So, a lot of rules of human nature and society apply. would you let your child walk around south central LA at 1 am in the morning with a kkk outfit on? no. that's like going into yahoo chatrooms that are designated for 14 year olds only, or 10 year olds only.. because those chatrooms are really started by pedophiles. and yeah. (part of that was the explanation to her, and the rest was something I stated here)
My suggestion to parents is to not let your children chat on yahoo or aol. and hell, if your child is under 14, or lacks a brain whatsoever, not to chat at all.
When I started on the net, I knew not to go to some of these places.. and I can spot a pedophile from a mile away, sadly, the common teenager cant.
so it's up to the parents to watch what their children do occasionally..
like if your child meets someone "cool" online.. you start worrying.. if that person presents enough evidence that they're really who they are then ok.
there is such a thing as overparenting as there is underparenting.
Despite dire warnings, we've gone ahead and put computers with Internet access into our adolescent (11, 12, and 15-year-old) childrens' rooms.
Well, if you ignored the dire warnings, I'm assuming it's because you trust your kids to be able to handle the privilege according to your guidelines.
Unfortunately we've had instances where all of these rules - especially that last one [don't lie to us about what you're doing] - have been broken, so now we are looking at getting more specific.
Well without knowing the specifics of how they broke the rule (Were they looking at porn sites? Were they getting frisky in online chat? Were they posting to racist newsgroups?), I can't say for sure what would be the right way to handle it. However, I can think of an easy fix to start with: yank the computers out of their rooms, and put one or two into a public room.
While one could argue that having access to the internet is becoming essential, having private, effectively unmonitored access is still clearly a privilege.
Jay (=
that she *never* comes into a situation where she feels she has to lie to me. It's hard for them to lie to the people that care about them 24 hrs. a day, y'know?
And I wish for myself and our relationship that I never move into a position where I force her to lie to me. If it happens, (it happend allready, nobodys perfect), then humor is a good approach to settle the issue. Just think back what you were thinking at that age, and anger will cool down instantly.
Children and teenagers want to be treated with respect. Just like we as parents do. Respect. Nothing more and nothing less.
Looking from the distance, the 'no quick closing of windows when I approach rule' isn't very respectfull if you ask me.
The Bottom Line:
"If you, my child, don't make you're internet usage a problem, neither will I. Don't overdo it and go outside once in a while too. And learn Pyhton, don't just chat. If you have to play for hours on end, it's only on rainy weekends. And play CTF rather than DM, it's a much more intelligent and teamwork way of mulitplaying. Be carefull who you talk to on the web and in chat, there are very sick people out there that would want to hurt a nice girl like you. And anyway, that web passord secured chatserver your geek daddy set up for you and your clique of friends is the way coolest anyway. But you know that allready. If still you want to meet someone in RL that you only know from IRC, take your friend along. I'll bring you and pick you up. And stay away from Microsoft, or else you'll won't get a Job when your grown up."
Aside from the slight humor and the lengthy advantages a geek daddy has in this particular parenting field, I'd say that pretty much sums up a good direction of dealing with the internet issue.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
"does everybody lie about what they're doing on the Internet?"
Not me. My name is John Titor and you can read all about me here http://www.johntitor.com , the most honest site on the internet.
Actually, we only have one golden rule in my house when it comes to the kids and computers: "Don't do anything online that you wouldn't do in person". If a parent has raised their children to be honest and trustworthy, that's the only rule needed.
And your assertion about kids snooping back is dead wrong. It is the duty of a parent to watch over their progeny to verify that they aren't getting themselves into dangerous situations. We do this in real life by knowing where our kids are, who they are with, and by letting them know what kinds of activities are unacceptable. When my daughter is staying the night at a friends house, I think nothing of calling the friends parents beforehand to verify that it's ok, and then calling them again later that evening to make sure she's behaving herself. That's just a part of parenting.
When my daughter (or my son...I don't want it to seem like I'm picking on her, but he doesn't use it as much) goes online, I lose that ability to find out who she's hanging out with and where she's going, so I use my hacked Squid to get that ability back. I'm no bible thumping conservative, so I don't care if my kids are talking about parties or boys, I just need to know who they're talking to and where they're hanging out.
There is nothing so pathetic as seeing a beautiful young theory roughed up by a tough gang of facts.
The average parent today is somewhat computer savy; However, the Teenager today or pre-teen. is a hell of alot more savy, they are growing up with the computers in there everyday life. Where the parents my only be using them at work, and occasionaly at home. (or flip it around) the Teenagers are always competing with each other trying to figure out the coolest new thing to do with the computer, how to get around the parental units rules, think about it, they say No, it just gives them something to go against and try to keep them from finding out.. just like drinking, or smoking. only difference is, the Teen is in the same room, his/her room or where ever the computer may be.. simply using net nanny or other software wont stop the teen. The average parent has about as good of a chance and controlling the net for their kids as M.A.D.D. does against Porn it just aint gonna happen. So to the parents that are trying to make rules, all I can offer ya is good luck.
You know, my parents gave me full Internet access in my room (which had a lock on the door, imagine that) since I was about 12 years old. You know what that got them? A kid interested enough in computers to study CS in college. What are you afraid of your kids seeing? You don't trust them enough to think for themselves? I think that's sad. They are going to see all manner of porn and violence no matter what you do (and will probably see more if you try to restrict them.) Just chill out.
See, it all boils down to the fact that the internet is just like any other information medium
See, there are many, many differences between the Internet and "any other information medium". If you were making an analogy, then you've made a logical flaw: its called "argument by analogy".
What can you do? Prepare your kids for what they may run into. Give them feedback and guidance on how to deal with certain situations. Tell them what is appropriate and what is not.
Thanks for your advice, but where do limits come in? How, specifically, can one "prepare" children for what they may run into? What if they come across a murder in progress? How might I "prepare" them for that?
Humans need practice making decisions for themselves and not having everything honed down, toned down, and spoon fed to them.
Humans make decisions for themselves regardless of who is doing the honing down, toning down, or spoon-feeding.
The fact is, you can't protect them. You can only help guide and instruct them.
Parents protect their children all the time. Perhaps you mean, "You can't protect your children from every hurt that they will come across." I believe that. Most parents aren't aware that their behavior will be the biggest hurt in their children's lives.
And if its really such a big deal, take the computer away and be a mean parent. They'll forgive you eventually, and its probably for the best anyway.
There's nothing inherently mean about taking a computer away from a child. And who knows? Maybe the child won't forgive you for doing it.
Anyway, its all about the trust, man.
I don't think you have kids, man. I think you are a kid, man.
Trust that your kids know what they're doing and if it gets out of hand, offer help and advice instead of anger and retribution.
I trust that children will always test their limits. That is my universal trust in children. Everything else is dependant on the relationship with the child in question.
We get enough of that from The Christain God.
And which Christian God would you be referring to? The Baptist one, the Jehovah's Witnesses' one, or the Mormon one? All of those groups claim to be "Christian", yet they all worship different gods.
I don't make the rules. I just make fun of them.
... with your definition of 'evil'. In some sense 'evil' is about being oblivious to the harm you are be doing. To take an extreme example, Hitler thought that what he was going was 'right'. He was also completely insane. The net result was a hell of a lot of 'real world evil'.
Just because you may think you are a good guy doesn't mean you necessarily _are_. This is why one must always be aware of the effects on others of one's actions.
My parrents never realy got realy angry when I visited porn sites, i'm not sure why.
what realy did affect me is when my parrents held me down and beat me untill i gave them all my logins and passwords. it was the most horible thing i ever had to do. i did'nt have any porn or objectional material on my sytem, but they continued to check every last detail in all my hard drives. it was horible, i don't know what they were looking for, they looked at text files, emails, school papers, video games, everything. they did this on two seperate ocasions, and i still don't know why. the second time they even told a couple of my friends on IM services to f*ck off when they messaged them. of course when they started telling my best friends to do that i tried and tackle them, my father broke my arm. I hate them.
scripsit cduffy:
That's an interesting perspective. The analogy that immediately leaps to mind is masturbation: The old myths about how you would go blind, become emaciated and effeminate, etc. In truth, the only negative effect (barring truly inappropriate choices in lubricant) is the psychic damage from being told what you're doing is evil.
OTOH, with pr0n it's not quite so simple. There is often violence and coercion that accompany the production of pornography, much like they accompany prostitution. It becomes very difficult to defend pr0n as something a girl ``chooses'' to do when she has been lured into Germany from Ukraine (for example, with the offer of a job as a nanny), had her passport taken away by a thug with a gun, and told that she does this video or they dump her in the Oder.
On the grasping hand, not all pr0n does involve violence or coercion. I can think of projects involving women who consider doing erotica liberatory feminist work. People are too often unwilling, however, to see shades of grey, and simplistically condemn anything that seems erotic as exploitive, regardless of the circumstances of its production. The very fact that pr0n is condemned, and a woman's getting involved in it is seen as ``falling,'' contributes to the elements of violence and coercion. By making pr0n seem shameful, society makes it more difficult for women who are being exploited to get out, and makes it problematic for women who are not in dire straits to enter the industry. Were there no stigma attached to sex work (prostitution, videos, whatever), it would in large degree lose its exploitive character. You don't hear a lot about women being smuggled into the EU and forced to work as bookkeepers, do you?
In principio creauit Linus Linucem.
The rod spoken of is a shepards' crook ("thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me"), not a stick for beating children. Guidance, not violence, is what is being prescribed.
;-)
Right, so the saying says that when they screw up you need to grab them by the neck with a stick and drag them away for their beating
Voices from the Hellmouth, everybody. You're welcome.
--
There is no hatred more pure and true than that expressed by children.
Finally, remember, we're discussing porn. Not prostitution, not sex clubs, not "alternative lifestyles", porn. I haven't heard of anyone getting an STD from a magazine yet.
I think you have the answer implicit in your own statement. As soon as they test positive for an STD they are no longer working, biweekly tests remember?
Alternative lifestyles, prostitution, sex clubs, etc. are the flip side of porn. That is what is being marketed by porn. A lot of the porn out there is simply advertising by strippers. A lot of strippers supplement their income by prostitution.
Human beings are integrated systems. If you change one thing you usually end up changing a whole bunch of other things unintenionally. In the pharmaceutical field these are known as side effects (side effects can include...). In sexuality this tends to produce a coarsening of the sensibilities. Porn is evil because it abuses a central part of our makeup. We build our whole existance around sexuality and it's consequences (marriage, family). Porn is a distorted image of that, and people who build their lives around porn (strippers, prostitutes, pornographers, etc.) ultimatly are destroying themselves and the people around them. It's similar to drug abuse in it's destructive effects.
I'm not speaking theoreticly here, I've watched as people I knew destroyed themselves this way.
Whether or not you agree with the law, a child should never be taught or share experience for something that may lead to incarceration. For the average person, being caught with drugs will lead to a criminal record, which will lead to difficulty getting jobs, housing, cars, loans, etc.. You glanced over that risk as if it was an afterthought. It is hardly an afterthought.
I did not imply LSD makes you automatically psychotic. I said it CAN make you psychotic. Some people have no apparent trouble with it. But I have a friend who gets continuous flashbacks, and there have been documented cases of people going psychotic because LSD triggered that psychosis. Search Google for it if you doubt me. There is no reliable way to predict how individuals will react to it, so why bother with the risk, especially with a child?
I also said nothing about the good or bad effects of marijuana. I don't agree with its use as I believe, as with other drugs, it impedes productivity within society as a whole. This is particularly true among younger people who haven't matured enough to make proper decisions and for those with little parental guidance. With the possible exception of palliative care and chronic diseases, I don't see a good reason to use marijuana. It's not acutely dangerous, however. I acknowledge that. It's just that if someone needs it to relax, they need to find other ways to relax before they choose it.
I never said that one should put off the decision. You're putting words in my mouth at this point. What I said was that a parent needs to inform their child of the full consequences of certain decisions. Drugs, sex, driving, living in the real world, bad grades, and so many other things need to be discussed. They need to be discussed with the full implications of making certain decisions whether or not you like or agree with those implications.
What are you looking for?
My daughters used computers online, both in shared family spaces and in their rooms. Regular surfing wasn't a problem -- p0rn is only interesting if it's prohibited. Note: prohibition doesn't work. After curiosity is satisfied (with discussion about what was viewed), they moved on. Every healthy, intellegent adolescent is curious! Discuss it, and hope the learn something useful from your discussion (i.e. why you hold the moral views you do).
Safety is another issue. One daughter lost her computer priviliges for a time for disclosing personal information in chat. Did I snoop? You betcha. What tipped me off? Something she said. Did we have a big ol' discussion about pedophiles hiding in chat? Uh huh. We came to an understanding about not believing everything said in chat, all questions don't need to be answered, you don't know who this person is, blah, blah.
No computer (play time) until homework and chores were done. Those were the rules. Monitor them? Sure, when needed. Mostly, talk to them. Listen to what they have to say about their experiences online (just like you ask them what they are learning in school). Ask about their friends online (just like you ask who their friends are in school). It's not a question of trust or distrust, it's being a good parent (pronounce: teacher).
I crown you the winner. This thread is so irrational.
How many normal people do you know that use the word "joy" in this context? Of course, there are other words like this... Hey, everybody, lets play verbal "Where's Waldo?"
to know--as in ALL the facts--don't expect them to make the decisions you would have prefered
when they get out in the real world and find that you have been lying to them (telling half-truths),
or even making good decisions for that matter, when they find themselves unprepared for reality.
There are too many pregnant teeagers who thought they couldn't get pregnant the 1st time
because "sex education" where they were schooled was an oxmoron.
gewg_
Put together porn and nastyness filtering plug+go linux routers on ebay for 100 / $150 !
I can't be bothered
A blog I run for the wealth
I mean get over it. If they can't find it online they'll find it else where. We kept stacks of pilfered magazines in a hollowed out tree in the woods, under the house, we stole them from our parents, the convienence store or found them at the dump, whatever. Even if there wasn't porn there was always the Sears catalog (bra and panty section!) or worst case, National Geographic. Its like we all like to pretend that hormones don't make you a complete raging lunatic.
Set a good example, do your best and let the little people grow up.
Quack, quack.
" I am thirteen years old and have been allowed to have my own computer since I was eleven. My parents figured that I was a fairly clever kid who would have figured out a way of doing the wrong thing if i so pleased. I do not look at innapropriate websites--namely pornography, as a christian it goes against everything I believe in."
Read the old testament book called Song of Solomon. The Bible has nothing in it against the God given sex drive; only misplaced lusting after other people's women. Nakedness is normal natural and quite Christian. King David ran naked though the streets in one bout of repentance. King David was Gos's favorite says the Bible - and he had hundreds of wives and concubines. Want to be a favorite of God? Be ye as fruitful as King David. The Old Testament is ALL ABOUT being fruitful.
Where are those mod points when I need them!
My children (8 & 13) know what I do for a living - network engineer (BOFH wannabee). They have been told what to do and what not to do.
The "do" includes web, email and IM. IRC is not installed on their PCs - largely because they never asked and I might when they think of it. They can contact their friends, chat, play games and even do homework!
The "don't" includes giving out any personal information - name, age, sex, location etc. They aren't supposed to sign up for anything, mail lists memberships etc, without asking me. My criteria basically involves data protection and privacy so I'm afraid that rules out much of the west side of the Atlantic, sorry...
I have demonstrated to my 13 year old how I can monitor what they are doing. My router can tell me a lot and I run a network probe.
I also pull the Cat5 cable out of the router at bedtime!
I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
That this idiot stays at +1 while the AC making rational responses to his useless ramblings keeps getting knocked down to "Troll" is just more evidence that the moderation system is fucking broken.
Are you 13 or is that just your arrested mental age?
I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
I'll freely admit that my post didn't deserve the "Insightful" bit. There's nothing earth-shattering in that one sentence of 8 words. But "Flamebait"? Please. That's just as silly. If you don't know how to moderate it, then please just don't moderate it at all. Thanks!
Arrr!
I do the same thing at home that we do at the school where I teach. We have a policy that limits use to anything appropriate (as defined by the adults). There is a tendency to promote educational use, but we realize that amusement and communication have value even when not explicitly educational.
Then we put a squidguard content filter between the network and the internet, block the sex sites, and log everything. Internet access turns off from 10:30 PM to 6:00 AM.
By far the biggest event of my adolescence was buying my own computer. It took me a year or two of lawn mowing, but it was for me what I suspect what getting a car was to my parents generation - freedom. Before that, we had a single family computer with a modem. Being far more technically savvy than my parents, I of course got into all sorts of things I shouldn't have, including (but not limited to) violent video games, porn and hacking. Getting my own computer meant that I could pursue these interests in private without having to go through all the effort of hiding them.
Before you write off my opinion, let me say that I have given up video games for over a year now, my fascination with hacking has largely worn off, and, well, I have largely stopped using online porn. In spite of this, I don't regret what I did, although my parents would certainly have heart attack if they knew the half of it.
I think I discovered porn when I was in the 6th grade, which would mean I was 12. I was by far the most sexually educated kid I knew growing up, because my desire for porn was about half sexual fascination and about half intellectual fascination with forbidden knowledge. Perhaps the best thing I ever found was the Alt.Sex FAQ . Some people might be horrified at the thought of a 15 year old reading this, but I think it went a long way towards making me the most sexually knowledgeable and educated kid I knew. When other kids were having sex, I was afraid of getting gonorrhea. When I finally did, I knew much more about a woman's body and how to treat it than I would have otherwise. For all the raunchy "degrading" porn I watched, I read well written story romances.
My point is basically this - that if you attempt to force a morality upon your kids, they *might* obey it, but they will only do so because of fear of punishment from you. If you let them see what's out there, make their own mistakes and learn the hard way, they will come to their own morality in time, and it will be one that they will follow because they believe in it. This make take time and what they arrive at may not be exactly what you are starting with, but I am a strong believer that what matters is the thought behind the action.
I got myself into a good deal of trouble along the way with the things I dabbled in, and my parents reaction was always that you are responsible for your actions. In time, I decided that my actions weren't worth the risks. I would never have reached this had they simply forbade me or cut me off. This isn't to say that they didn't try - I knew I was breaking the rules, and I was smart enough to get away with it for the most part.
Since you are reading /., we can assume that you are somewhat more sophisticated than my parents were, and thus that your ability to enforce your rules is also greater, so that your kids might not be able to get away with what I got away with. Putting myself in your position, I would give them freedom to do what they like, but I would set up a monitor on their activity, so that if something truly threatening were to take place (agreeing to meet a stranger they met in a chat room), I could intervene. That would be the exception though - the point is that they should learn about consequences when they are young and the consequences are not all that serious, rather than when they are older and the consequences are life consequences. As humiliating as it was to tell my parents why we'd gotten kicked off our ISP, I would rather relive that a hundred times than wind up in jail for hacking today.
I realize it would be hard as a parent to know that your 12 year old son watches donkey porn twice a week, but I think with patience, education, and a few tough learning experiences your kids will come to their own understanding of right and wrong.
Foxbat
Try the AFA Filter. 3 computers, $50/yr. For $10 you can add a list of visited sites.
Don't let them get into online porn. It can ruin their lives.
Some people use it as a substitute for thinking for themselves. Why else do people use XP?
Tech Public Policy stuff
My subject says it all. But to make it more clear, keep your christian mythology influenced authoritarian enabling babble to yourself. It's annoying -- I'll make my own decisions about what's right and wrong for myself.
And in my case my morality tells me no marriage, no religion and no sexuality -- I'm not interested in any of these things. They're all horrible resourse sinks.
Also the condescension inherit in your "you don't follow my religion, therefore you don't understand anything, so I'll explain it to you in the most patronizing terms I can" post is as insulting in tone as my deliberately antagonistic reply.
And if you are merely a troll, get back under the fucking bridge.
OK, so theres lots of good advice on porn. But what do you do to stop your kids downloading mp3s if your kid says 'but you've got them'? I'm guessing most people here have at least a few mp3s that arn't totally legal. Mp3s are like 'white lies' that adults use to blur the 'I can but you can't' arguement.
- have been broken, so now we are looking at getting more specific
if I broke a rule when I was a child and it onvoled a toy, the toy was GONE, as in in the garbage. You either start enforcing teh rules and punushing, or you raise kids who get to the real world and wonder why they get a ticket or have to pay their credit card bills every month.
> Saddam was delusional to the end. Not insane,
> but really more the way Bush is. He was (by
> choice)
OK let's stop this drivel now.
The next time you are tempted to pontificate on an individual's personality in order to try to understand events, think about this:
Hitler was not the Third Reich. Martin Luther King was not the American civil rights movement.
There seems to be a growing tendency, particularly in the US media and with Americans in general I would say, to focus on the nature of individuals to the exclusion of the situations those people exploit or exist in. I don't know exactly why this is, but perhaps it's easier to understand history or societies in terms of "bad" and "good" individuals (Hitler's mother beat him... he was insecure... so he thought he'd invade Poland) as if those individuals somehow *are* history or their societies. It's much harder to look at the much more complex, but far more important, sets of situations that enabled those people to do what they did.
You may say "So what? But there is a damaging side to this way of looking at things. Focussing on personalities all the time is self-deception. We can speculate all we like, but we will never know whether Alexander the Great was gay, or whether Clinton was addicted to sex. It's a truly pointless effort.
Further, it implies that we are not in control. It implies that no matter what we do there will always be some mysteriously "evil" or "good" people completely unlike us or anyone we know who will come along out of the blue and change things. We can only stand on the sidelines and hope that if only the "evil" people can be found and eradicated, or that some supernaturally "good" people can prosper then all will be right with the world.
Which is bullshit of course. But whaddya know? It plays right into the hands of people like George Bush who would really rather we worried about how many babies Saddam eats for breakfast than why the US supported him during the Iran-Iraq war, or why most people in the Middle East regard the US support of Israel as the biggest problem facing the region today.
It's much easier to say "Saddam is evil - so we're going to bomb Iraq until he's gone."
After all, who would argue with that??
"And the meaning of words; when they cease to function; when will it start worrying you?"
After reading all of the "my children will behave as I wish them to at all times, despite any desires or reasons otherwise" posts, makes me feel lucky I had the lassez faire parents I did.
I never would have put up with the invasive, tyrannical households some of you suggest. The first time I got the "my house/my rules" speech, I would have silently disobeyed said rules, if I didn't agree with them. If punished, I would ignore and subvert the punishment.
If kicked out for failure to comply with ultimatums before I turned 18, I would have said parents charged with child neglect for failure to provide adequete food and shelter.
And if my parents were foolish enought to try corporal punishment, I would hit them back and then have said parents charged with child abuse.
And finally if I had child abusing parents I couldn't take in a fair fight, I would fight a guerilla war and do my best to destroy their lives for daring to strike me.
But luckily I had parents that provided food, shelter and oppertunities for growth, but otherwise left me the fuck alone.
iraqbodycount.net is a propaganda site that bases their numbers on pure fantasy. An analysis of their counting methods found numberous problems. They accepted numbers from the (former) Iraqi government without question. They counted the same reports from different news sources as distinct, even though they were of the same incident - thus guaranteeing duplicates.
Using iraqibodycount.net as your primary argument indicates you have no argument.
You should compare the iraqi civilian deaths to how many were murdered monthly by the Saddam government. You will find that far fewer people died from the US invasion than died by the hands of Saddam's thugs.
Civilian deaths are tragic and should be avoided. Unfortunately, war is not a very clean business so it is impossible to avoid killing civilians. Comparing accidental civilian deaths to purposely murdered civilians at the hands of terrorists is an act of stupidity.
Oh, and let's not forget the estimated 300,000 (or more)iraqis currently buried mass graves.
-- Will program for bandwidth
although i won't have kids for a long time, i think a tech-savvy parent could set up a home network and funnel all the internet connectivity through one computer which has a firewall and other such things... they'd have to run it as a server, i think, but they could check the logs to see if any "educational" sites have been accessed.
Haha, some childless nerd or irresponsible parent marks posts down.
i adire your way of dealing with this issue. however i hope that once your children learn to use anonymizer/style or really any other circumvention methods to get around your walls you set up that you let them, or at the very least while clamping down on their technical ability, don't punish them with your 'law' or with any other punishments.
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
i would say if your daughter is messing around with middle aged men at 12 you missed the boat, and no amount of corrective parenting is going to solve your situation. shame. of course, not that many people do much better, sadly.
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
the problem is desperate ecconomic conditions, and other such factors. why are college aged females starving to the point that getting fucked up the ass on film is a Good Thing? now granted, there are some who would go for that sort of thing anyways, as autopron somewhere elsewhere has pointed out, but there ARE women who do this sort of thing for money. "repetition for money."
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
if your going to tell someone to die, at least leave your name. coward.
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
at least someone has the right idea here.
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
i hope you one day open your eyes and live with the rest of us in the real world, because these things happen there. granted, i myself am a quiet, meek and respectful musician and CS student, but the weird and scary life of working at a nightclub, and seeing exactly what goes on behind the scenes there for some year and a half is what i speak from here. sex with animals is more common than you'd think, drug assisted orgies happen, and i'm not certian about the fantasy rape thing, but i'd definitely point it down to a hardware error. the real world is cold, and unforgiving. it's best for people to be aware at least of what it's capable of. by the time i started working for the nightclub i was 19, and i had heard about or seen pictures of most of the activities i saw live. so it didn't really make THAT much of an impression on me. but i can tell you, though, that in the Real World, things are not as clean as you make it out to be. hell there are things i know about that make animal sex, orgies and fantasy rape seem like plain missionary position consentual-between-two-mairried-adult sex.
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
Rule 2: No member of the faculty is to maltreat the others in any way at all... if there's anybody watching.
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
more than you at least
Logging is the best way.
Let them know the sites they visit are being logged. If their testimony (on request) doesn't match up... no more computer in their rooms.
Heck, this is how most companies manage employee internet use. Most don't actively watch. Only when there is suspician of misuse, they check. The difference between a written warning, and being fired, is if the employees testimony matches the logs.
>>Oh, and let's not forget the estimated 300,000 (or more)iraqis currently buried mass graves. [emphasis mine]
You: You're an Idiot!
Me: No, You Are!
You: No, You Are!
Me: No, You Are!
You: No, You Are!
Me: No, You Are!
You: No, You Are!
Me: No, You Are!
You: No, You Are!
Ad Nauseum.
Common, considering that your old enough to have a child that is withing the range of 14-16 then you should also remember looking at porno mags, burning bugs with a magnifying glass and setting things on fire.
The more you try to control the more they want to say screw you and do it anyways.
just let your kids be free to explore the net and make there own decisions but I would reccomened the following rule list:
No virii: Make them promise on pain of jail-time not to write em
No hacking anything beyond a friends or relatives computer
No following the crap in the digital format versions of the Anarchist cookbook or similar writings without the supervision of Mom or Dad
In general just put rules in place that will provent your child from going to jail or dying. Everything else should be cool.
Yes, it's only an estimate. The actual count is probably much much higher. It's been said the number could exceed half a million people.
"Misunderstood", my ass.
-- Will program for bandwidth
I don't have the time to browse almost 2000 comments, so in case it hasn't already been said:
I really don't see the necessity of having a computer for each kid. When did the mentality become "a computer for every man, woman, and child"? I'd say your family needs at most two computers, one for Mom and Dad and one for the kids.
By having one "kids' computer" in a central area, you not only solve the problem of nasty content, but you also teach your kids how to solve the everlasting problem of limited resources. In other words, they'll have to teach themselves how to share.
This is how my parents handled the situation when I was a kid (my brother and I both moved out earlier this year). It worked fine until I started a degree in Comptuer Engg and I needed to use the computer basically every night for school. Until you find yourself in a situation like that, you can have your cake and eat it too by making them share.
Of course, this leads to other problems that may require some actual parenting rather than a write-and-forget set of rules, but that's up to you.
--
...Whether my Maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter.
Churchill
As a teenager in a predominantly religious (read: Mormon) community, the general cultural influence has been to have computers in public areas of our house. Even so, that has not stopped at least a few of us (myself and friends -- doubtlessly more, I'm sure) from venturing into the darker end of the internet. Some have done well and chosen more promising activities to pursue, while others have become slaves to irc and porn collections. As a teenager, I don't particularly want my parents reading my IM conversations -- those are personal, those are mine. At the same time, I see that they make choices and try to teach me so that I can make good decisions about the media choices I make and the other ways I decide to spend my time. I think it's a delicate balance. That balance is not achieved in this home because I am the only one who knows anything about computers. There are many times that I, as a teen, wish that someone else controlled the computers. (Wow, did I just type that? I guess 17 years old is getting to be more mature...) As for what I'll probably do as a parent when I have kids? My kids will have their own computers, and I don't even care if they are in their rooms because all internet traffic will go through a server that I control that will have some sort of very advanced packet sniffer. I'll still respect privacy, but I'll be sure to be notified when my kids start searching for life's answers. (Hopefully my future wife will have them . . . )
Basically, you teach your kids good morals. If you want them to trust you and feel they can openly express themselves around you, you can't be suspicious about everything they do - it's not supportive or fair. Instead, you have to tell them what not to do and give them legitimate reasons. If you can't provide a legitimate reason for someone not to do something, there's probably no reason for them not to be able to do it.
That's right - if you made the mistake of letting them have computers in their room, don't allow them to have connections to the internet.
That'll cut out about 99% of the garbage you might ever have to worry about. And don't listen to the naysayers - no matter what the age of your kids, it's *your* house and *your* rules. They can make their own rules when they move out.
Max
My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
It's often easy to forget to treat the internet as if it were a real-life place - shopping centre/cafe/main street/nightclub/whatever.. We all should be bound by and work within the same rules that apply in regular society.
Ladies, form queue here -->
Hehehehe Only americans can be that dumb to think they can control what somebody else would do. Such a parent should already know that education is the only way to keep your child safe. And not by supervising him/her like a prison guard. Idiots that can't even raise their own children shouldn't breed. Hey! By eliminating this kind of idiots we wouldn't have US massacres all over the world because people chose to think differently.
Uh... where's the story? Censoring is a bad thing even for teenagers. After all, theyre just going to find out about sex, homosexuality, bestiality, b&d (a personal favorite), and lying/sneaking all on their own. Why not help them get there quicker? Then again, it might get them quicker into the hands of the local pedophile. Uh oh.. that migh not be a good thing either.
Everyone I've ever talked to lies about what they do on the internet. I did when I was young, my friends did, most of the people with anything to hide still do.
Of course, when I was 15, internet access was a dialup shell account on a public access system that limited access to porn not for any sort of "moral" reasons, but because they didn't have a lot of bandwidth or disk space available...so no *.binaries usenet groups...and of course the web hadn't been invented yet...:)
But realistically, if your kids are basically sane and responsible people, the best policy is to not worry so much about their internet use.
If you give your children freedom, without cockamamie rules like "Don't lie to us" and "Don't quickly close down windows", you'll find that they will police themselves. They're going to see porn eventually. Somewhere they will. you can not stop that. there are bad things on the internet, as there are in real life, seeing things that might be unpleasant (I'm speaking of your rotten.com's and such) but looking at that stuff is it's own punishment.
Your kids are smarter then you give them credit for, but please, don't punish their natural urges to explore the more adult side of life (I don't mean just porn, adult stuff in general, as in non-barney) with obtuse rules. Let them close the door, let them lock it too. If you trust your kids you will have a much better relationship with them.
It is when trust breaks down that kids will do drugs and not tell you. Then you won't be able to educate them without making them look at you as captain bringdown. Discuss sex openly. Discuss Alcohol openly. Discuss with your teenage boys the need to respect women, life, privacy. Your kids will love you so much more if you can be a friend too.
Now, if they're way out of line I'm not saying you should back off and be a total beatnik parent, you're still the authority figure. Just use some rationale eh? If your kid tries dope you'd much rather hear about it from him after the first incident, not the cops after the 100th he had to hide from you.
Same deal with the net. To love is to set free... I think Sting sang it best.
Oh, and by all means block crap like rotten.com... I saw that around age 12 and it was not right. Don't block goatse.cx though, they see that and they'll stay the F away from that side of the internet for a while LOL.
No need for rules.
I'm a freshman in college, and spent my high school life shuttling between a residential school with relatively unsupervised high-speed internet on the weekdays and home, with a slow AOL dialup line tightly controlled by my parents, on the weekends, so I've experienced both ends of the spectrum of discipline regarding internet usage.
To condense three years of school into one sentence - basically, Internet at home with lots of restrictions that didn't make sense to me = I find a way around them, my parents and I get mad at each other. Internet at school with very few restrictions = occasionally I'd go overboard, but the vast majority of the time, I understood I was responsible for monitoring myself (and the consequences if I didn't), so I think it worked pretty well. When I made mistakes, I learned.
(Keep in mind this is a kid talking here, but) Generally, give your kid a little more freedom than you think he/she should actually have. I guarantee it'll be less freedom than the kid thinks he/she should get, but that's what a compromise is. Part of the responsibility of a parent is to teach their child to handle his/her own responsibilities, and a few slip-ups will happen, but that's the only way they'll learn. Personally, as a kid, I don't respond very well to "You want to do X? Well, first you must Prove Yourself." It's much nicer to hear "We're not sure about this, but we trust your judgement, and think you can handle this." You feel a lot more obligated to keep up that responsibility.
Coming down hard with rules without discussing with your kids why you're setting them - and making sure they understand why you're setting them - is just going to make them find better ways of covering their tracks. I'd sit down and have a talk with each one separately and ask them what they think are reasonable guidelines, then try to go from there. This summer, my parents and I finally agreed on one that's pretty good for both of us. (The last two rules fixed our two biggest problems - that I wouldn't get off immediately when asked because I was "in the middle of something," and that they kept on peering at the monitor to find out what it was that I was in the middle of.)
1) Priority for the phone line goes like this: Mom and dad's business, my schoolwork, recreation. If you're not using the 'net for school or work and someone else needs to, you get off. Immediately. However, their business doesn't interrupt my schoolwork, and my schoolwork doesn't interrupt their business work on the internet.
2) There is a time limit for how long I can go online each day. (More on weekends than on weekdays). I can choose how to partition that time throughout the day (as long as it's before midnight.) When time is up, it is up. Extensions may be requested. If I go overtime, there is no internet the next day. (This is their favorite rule. It's eased a lot of tension.)
3) Mom and dad trust my judgement on what I'm doing on the internet. (We had a discussion on what was and wasn't appropriate.) Consequently, they don't look over my shoulder unless I invite them to. (This is my favorite rule. It's eased plenty of tension, too.)
Standard disclaimer: Of course, it completely depends on the kid, and you know your children better than anyone else... (but hey, ask your teenagers. They probably know themselves and you pretty well too.)
I went online totally unrestricted and I like MILLIONS of other teens came out fine.
Restrictions are cheap and easy, helping your kids develop personal responsibility is a little harder and requires a little more resourcefulness. Guess which one has the better payoff in the end?
In my opinion (as an educator of technology to children), be honest with your children. As a role model, this is the best you can do to ensure safety on the internet. Without scaring them, educate them on the net's potential dangers. Make them feel as though they can approach you. Censorship only peeks curiosity. Don Tapscott's Growing Up Digital is a great book on the topic. Well worth the read!
I dissagree with your comments, that children should be taught not to talk to strangers online. I believe that the ability to converse with people they have never met, and most likely will never meet, is one of the most important things your child can be taught.
Thanks to the Internet, your child can make acquaintances with people from a multitude of countries, beliefs, and religions. They can learn about cultures, differences between societies, and problems or struggles people experience in everyday life. And they can do this safely.
There are still people who would rather deny their child communication with "online strangers" than educate their child about doing so responsibly. There are still parents who know so little about the Internet that they will accept the miconception that all "chat rooms" are undeground grooming places for paedophiles. Five minutes of guidance is enough to make your child understand that joining #12yroldz on AOL and repeatedly asking "wanna cyber?" is a bad idea.
The key is making your child *understand* that people hidden behind a chat room can lie. Simple as that. They need to be taught to keep their online acquaintances seperate from the real world. Make them understand that they WILL meet people who will try to harm them. With a little education, the Internet becomes a "virtual sandbox". Your child will be exposed to people - both good and bad, in a controlled and safe enviroment. There is no better way to teach your child about human nature.
I say this from personal experience. I am presently 18. During my 'childhood' I had always enjoyed the freedom of unrestricted online communication. I belive the results from this are only positive. I have learned so much, from so many...
My lifetime passion has always been programming. While in the 'real world', very few of the people around me shared this interest, online I was able to find a haven. I was able to interact with hundreds of thousands of people who not only shared my interests, but were willing to share their knowledge. I learnt to share my knowlede in return. I could collaborate on projects with people I had never met. It didn't matter that I was 12, noone knew or cared. My age was irrelevant. It was an environment in which skin color, gender, age, and nationallity are all irrelevant. A place where knowledge, contribution, and respect are honoured.
This has changed my approach in the real world. In a society where racism and religious discrimination are commonplace, children learn the negative attitudes from their peers. Having made contacts in practically every country, I didn't give in to the temptation to tag along. I actually knew the societies and people which others would criticise for no other reason than "because they're different".
I don't believe that your child will have their mind warped by pornography or bad language on the internet. If you believe they won't be exposed to these two 'evils' at their schools, you have perhaps lost contact with reality. The difference is that in the online world, attacking people with profanities results in rejection from a community, rather than cheap support from immature peers. The "u wanna fuck?" messages are frowned upon - "I'm sorry, I'd rather not sustain a sexual relationship over a 56k modem link".
I learnt, from first-hand experience, that trust takes years to build, and seconds to break. I learned to respect others, not because it was 'forbidden' to be disrespectful, but because mutual respect is what created the greatest acheivements and communities. I learned how to act when in a position of power, how to diminish rather than fuel dissagreements. Online communities, be they forums, IRC channels, or simply e-mail, have one thing in common; they are environments in which decisions aren't made with fists or knives, but via wit, intellect, and understanding. If children weren't sheided from this "for their own protection", they would grow to become better people.
Parents, once you're past making the huge mistake of actually letting the kids have computers in their rooms, what's a reasonable set of guidlines?
WHAT?
Grow a set of balls, man! Who is incharge of your house, you ar the kids? Lay down your rules! And if they break them ONCE, take the computers and sell them?
What are you, a moron?
As a parent of an almost 15 yr old who has his own internet connection in his room I say trust 'em.
,hopefully made a difference.
When he was young and we first got on the 'net the computer was in a common room and I occasionally would look and see what the kids were doing on line.
The only rule I had then was NO CHATROOMS. I enforced it and talked about why I felt this was necessary - the kids were 8,8 and 4 at the time.
We talked about internet safety in general and specifically. It worked well.
I never had a net nanny installed or blocked sites - we talked about what was and was not appropriate and that they would lose ALL computer time if they were doing something they knew was wrong. Worked wonders.
He is 15 now and very computer saavy - I trust him to do the right thing - and if he gets in a jam I will help him out - with the understanding that we will discuss it after I come down from the ceiling. We have never had to do that.
As a teen he has friends with whom he wishes to talk without being listened to - he has a right to his privacy. He has the right to be able to do his thing - HOWEVER - if doing his thing involves anything that I consider immoral, or unethical then we have a problem.
We may not always agree on things but he knows he has earned my trust in being online and does not abuse it. He also realizes that things have a way of coming back and biting him in the a## is he messes up.
His younger brother uses the common area computers to go online and is still monitored somewhat closely. Why? Because he is only 10 and is still rather impulsive and trusting. He too is learning the rules for internet negotiation - his older brother is teaching him as well.
Have they ever gone to sites I think are "bad" You betcha - but we talk about them and discuss the situation seriously - and most times I see their point in going there. (this does not include porn)
As to porn - has my teen ager seen it? Probably - am I totally freaked ( well a little) but then again we have discussed how I feel about porn and why and he seems to get it. Will he look at porn again? Probably - but knowing how I (his Mom)feel and thinking in terms of "would you want your sister to do this?? has
One of these days he is going to be on his own - I would hope that he will have the skills he needs to cope in a world that is so different than the one I grew up in.
Letting go is hard but hanging on is harder
Yduz
...would be oblivious to the fact that they are controlled down to the smallest detail every day of their life.
What money do you spend, how much do you pay to get to work, can you walk around naked in public, how often do your police write tickets if you park your car in the wrong place, what side of the road are you supposed to drive on, if someone pisses you off are you allowed to kill them.... the list is virtually endless.
Pull your head out of your ass... and get in line for birth control.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
> One of these days you're gonna forget to select "Post Anonymously" and then you'll be for it!
Anonymous? Screw that. Only Karma Whores troll anonymously. I troll logged in, you squishy-nosed, parrot-humping, nerfherder. Or something...
> I'd say that the split is about 60/40 in favor of the former currently.
I, being well-versed in such things, would say that the split is more like 35/65, but whatever...
Use a proxy server (we use squid) and stick in ACL-deny lists for porn or other 'adult' sites/topics.
:) I found that difficult to lock-down under Windows.
If they're using Windows, and you don't want them to chat, disable it. Make sure they're not a power-user.
Setup a server for inbound/outbound email. Have it pickup their email, and point their email app (in our case Eudora) to pickup from it. A cronjob every 10 minutes works here. (It will also alleviate the time when your kids try to use Email as a chat, checking email every 20 seconds... yes, we went through that).
That's about all we did. Oh, one of the servers I had setup to save their outbound email, too.
These other posts about trusting them, about privacy... not! These are kids. They are to be taught, and watched over.
Before we did this, we caught our 14 year old daughter on a chat site. From the squid logs, I was able to point out, from the information she gave out, how to find her. It was really simple, putting 2 + 2 together. Needless to say, she was shocked, and embarrased. But that put an end to our letting her on chat networks.
Luckily neither of the kids knows how to disable the proxy server settings in their browsers
http://slashdot.org/~tf23/journal
I loved your last line. Don't know if I could reply though, I might be lying! LOL.
Ok, here's my 2c worth. First off, this is my personal, as well as professional opinion - I've given lectures and presentations on how to keep kids safe on the 'net, and I've done some volunteer work for Yellow Dyno (http://www.yellowdyno.com).
;) But the safety of kids is more important. Yes, I know I'm going to get blasted by some people on this one. I'm not that much older than you, and I remember when I was 15-16-17-18-19, whatever (both physically and mentally). I was immortal, nothing could touch me. You pretty much all feel like that, but believe me, you're just as vulnerable and mortal as the rest of us. If you get cut, do you not bleed?
Most internet safety groups say to keep the computers out of the kids rooms. And I agree in principle, that Internet access should be limited to an open area, visible to all. Having said that, my kids each have a computer in their room. Am I a hypocrite? I don't think so, and I'll tell you why... One reason, is that they're too young to be interested about anything other than Sesame Street, Strawberry Shortcake and Rescue Heroes. Secondly, and most importantly, they don't have 'net access.
I believe that security shouldn't hinder your work. When it comes to having multiple school-age children in the same house, you probably don't have room in your living room for 2 or 3 separate computer stations. Not to mention the arguments -- "MOM! (S)HE'S HACKING INTO MY COMPUTER AGAIN!!!"
And why is everyone around here so concerned about pr0n? that's the least of my worries. When the time comes, my kids will be locking themselves up in their rooms and bathrooms for hours on end, looking at, and enjoying pr0n. There's not much you can do about that. What I'm worried about, most of all, are internet predators. Yes, we need to protect our children (sorry, but while some 17-year-olds may be mature enough to be considered an adult, many more are not - heck, some 30-year olds are less mature than some 17-year olds I know). So for the sake of this argument, let's not dwell on the physical age, but rather the mental maturity. Back to the point of pedophiles...
Kids tend to trust implicitly - that's what we teach them. Listen to grown-ups, people of authority, stuff like that. But we don't teach them to know the difference between a 'good' grown-up, or a 'bad' grown-up. Why don't we? because we want to protect our kids - but protecting them with ignorance is not the way either. So how do you educate your kids without scaring them to death, and, to try and answer the original question in this thread, how far do you go to protect them from the 'net?
As far as educating your kids, I believe that the key is to teach them how to defend themselves. Assume that at some point in your kid's life, they will be approached by a pedophile. There are really good organizations out there who will teach your kid, and yourself, how protect against that encounter. (for starters, check out www.yellowdyno.com).
But to focus on the original point, I believe that the computer is a tool, a means to an end. Just as you need to know who your kid's friends are, you need to know who their 'cyber-buddies' are. Chat can be safely used to chat with known friends - like other kids from school that the kid interacts with anyway. IM software can block everyone who'se not on your list of friends, and controls are can be put in place to help prevent your kids from changing that. Are those controls fool-proof? no, but they are usually adequate and it's better than nothing.
Also, keep internet-connected computers in an open area - depending on your situation, you might need to have computers somewhere else besides the kitchen/family/living room. but don't plug them in to the 'net.
Use something to log all activity on your internet connection, and your kids what you're doing and why. Yes, this may be an invasion of privacy, and will probably keep mom/dad away from their pr0n too
And lastly, remember I said that t
People don't say, "Only give your kids Internet access in public family areas" because it doesn't work as a monitoring tool. They give this advice because it is the best option.
Every person I know that has put Internet in their kids bedrooms has regretted it. Every person that only allows access in common family areas while the parents are home has been quite happy with the results. The kids don't seem to really mind either.
Pick up any book, talk to any psychologist or law enforcement officer, and they will tell you the same thing.
To ignore this advice is to ignore better, hard won, thinking on the matter.
I could be wrong, but wasn't it Ashcroft that covered the statue?
I wonder how much parental supervision Jeffrey Dahmer received as a young lad in the hills??
Anyone who thinks that treating an adolescent or teenager like an adult is blinded by their own sinful desires.
And may a bucket of blood and piss pour on all of your heads!
Teenagers live to circumvent rules. Any parental control you place on the Internet simply provides them something to circumvent, and they will. The ONLY effective means to keep your teens from undesirable sites is threefold. 1.) Raise your kids right, be involved in their activities, be INTERESTED in them. 2.) Let them know how sad and dissapointed you will feel if you find that they have visited and spent time at an undesirable site. Most teens do want to please their parents. 3.) TRUST your teen. Let them shut the door when they are on-line. Don't get angry or spooked if they suddenly shut a bunch of stuff down when you walk by. DO expect that they will avoid undesirable sites and recognize that they will, from time to time (usually by accident) open an undesirable site. Most teens will live up to and deserve your trust. Those that don't, well you can console yourself that you will not beable to control their Internet access anyway.
All I can say is that if you have a teenage daughter, make sure her in-room PC doesn't have a webcam. She'll end up naked all over Kazaa. Of course, if she's a hottie, go right ahead with that cam, and make sure to email me the address. :)
My take is that in any normal society not perverted by a system that requires children and adolescents to remain under an oppressive rule of persons older than them to maintain a steady and rigid education and employment system for the purposes of a particular market system, children of that age would be considered burgeoning adults.
In particular, take the 15 year old; in any normal society where human social systems weren't distorted, that person would already be considered an adult and would already be doing all the things that make them an adult. Why do people think adolescents rebel against authority and parents? Is it because it's ingrained in them? No, not at all. It's because they see themselves, instinctively, genetically, and as humans, as no longer being children, as having attained adulthood. Are they permitted, then, to choose what they wish, grow how they wish, and be who they wish? No, they're forced, through oppression, to follow the whims of those older than them until they are, at least, eighteen years old, for some a full nine years after they began going through the change into adulthood.
And you wonder why your kids hide things from you? Do you think that your kids act the same at school and around their friends as they act around you? Do you think that in any way your kids don't hide their true selves and their true thoughts from you at every turn?
All those pretty kids who share everything with their parents and who think of their parents as their best friends and closest confidants are the exception, not the rule. Your kids are no different, you just don't want to see that. You want to keep them under your thumb, ostensibly to "protect" them. I say you're not protecting anything except your conscience and perhaps your standing in the community. I say you're ruining them and teaching them the same vicious cycle in which you're currently engaged.
You're a hop skip and jump away from being hated by your kids. And no, it's not a phase. It's something you cause.
My daughter, who is now a sophmore in college, was raised with the internet from about age 10. Rather than rules, we worked from a perspective of allowing her to explore freely, while striving to be trustworthy parents. It seems to have worked ;-) She is well adjusted, studious, athletic, compassionate and hard working. What more could any parent want? I believe that the porn thing is mostly in the heads of people who were raised with porn being a titillating but un-atainable prize. I think kids now see it for the sleaze it is.
HTH - Tom
There is no need for them to have private computers. Just as I wouldn't let them have private TVs, I wouldn't let them have private PCs. We have two computers in public places in the home. Their privacy is respected in that we don't stand over their shoulders, but their monitors are clearly visible to others in the home. The Internet is a wonderful place, but it can also be dangerous. It is my job as a parent to protect them from harm.
This is a thorny issue simply because people have varying moral views. I personally feel pornography in any form is more harmful than most believe and I choose to protect my children from it as much as possible. One way to do that is to control, at least in the home, the chances of them coming across such material.
> i'm not some porno freak, cause I know what the stuff if large quantities can do to you long term.
Umm, bullshit. I rarely look at porn and am way more fucked up than my porn-"addicted" friends. They've been all about it their whole life, but I say "big deal, tits & ass. Whoopdi-friggin-doo." And I'm wierd. Wish I would have had more porn growing up, then maybe I wouldn't be so closed. I wouldn't have been so scared of women 6 years ago if I had a better idea of what one looked like naked.
It's not the same for everyone, but sheltering your kids is bad. No questions, it's bad. Don't tell me that you're just doing your parental duty by keeping your children ignorant of the real world, you are fooling only yourself. (BTW, this isn't directed at any particular person, I have no idea how you personally raise your children.)
"Sure son, you can toddle across that busy highway if you want... or use my circular saw... " "Sure honey, you can email and visit that pedofile for a while..."
Anyway, one thing to consider is that not all lessons can be learned by trial and error. Sometimes the consequences are just too severe and you have to learn by other ways...
Sorry. I'm too tired to be a good parent (according to some of the postings from obviously childless people.)
First you tell them:
"Pretend I'm standing behind you while you're using the computer and don't do anything you would be ashamed or embarassed to have me see."
At the same time buy and install eblaster on every one of the kid's computers and set it to report to you every hour what is going on. If it keeps your daughter from getting pregnant at 13 or your son from becoming a junkie then all ethics go out the window.
I don't care if my son looks at porn or talks dirty on a chat line. It's going to happen no matter what I do. I'm more worried about what goes on at school than I am in his room.
I talked to him early about drugs, sex, back stabbing vindictive bitches like his mother (er, sorry, I digress) and all the other important things and he chose to ignore me and make the same mistakes. Now at the ripe old age of 14 we talk about these things all the time and he's happy he doesn't have to recreat the past to learn.
Just be practical about how you confront them with what you find.
Wow. I've been watching the messages roll in for the last couple of days ... thank you, all of you, for your thoughtful responses.
DO they need internet access or just a computer?
If you want them to be networked but not be able to connect to websites just use something like a linksys router to block them from using port 80 and 443. That option still allows them AIM if you think that is okay.
I'd take a step back and ask yourself "why" they "needed" the computer in their room in the first place. Then go from there. If need be check around at the latest url filtering programs. They are not alwys good at unfiltering valid sites but if it comes down to it, it will give you piece of mind.
"It's better to be a pirate then join the Navy"
Ive got over 11000 jpgs, about 300 mpgs, and 300-400 txts, and its cuz my parents dont know SH*T about computers, and we dont have the net at home, can anyone say LAN center???? all i needed was my 512 flash card, and a usb reader, and i was in business. ive been on the net since i was 8, and that was by using a friends aol account at home, from midnight to six, aol 4 dudes!! it doesnt matter what rules you set down in the computer is in the kids room, without a lan or proxy or nothing. I tell you right now that if the parents arent tech savy, at least as much as the kid, then they dont have a prayre, btw, i am 17, of course, i say my first porn after i moved to this community!
same rules just slightly altered to fit the computer age. Flashback!!! wut did these mean b4 computers "Keep the door open when you're on the computer. " == when your gf is over here i want you to sit where i can see you,and sit two feet apart. "Don't quickly exit from everything when we walk past." == i dont wanna walk past and see you quickly exiting your hands from under her skirt. "Don't ever lie to us about what you're doing." == ok then honestly i havent been having sex and smoking pot. the good ol days sigh
I don't know how you can possibly control what and where all your kids surf at any time. Your rules aren't bad, but I think at least some of them are unenforceable.
I think you should have a frank discussion with your kids about the consequences of various actions, from sexual predators, to financial ruin for the family (say, if the RIAA sues you because the kids shared music files), to jail time if they hack into someone else's computer. You get the idea.
Good luck!
-Rich
One picture is never enough. Having sex once outside of marriage is never enough, nothing is enough. As soon as one desire is fulfilled another comes
Your logic also dictates that sex within marriage once is not enough. After you made love to your spouse, you wanted to do it again, didn't you? How is it that this is OK, but outside of marriage it is not? What about committed relationships that are not marriages, where it can be thought of more as love making than sex?
My point is, unless you want to swear off all sexual fulfillment (no masturbation, no sex, no nothing, regardless of marriage) you are striking a balance between giving in completely, and not giving in at all... And different people have different balances...
I would be interested in knowing your take on different types of sex within marriage... Is missionary the only acceptable position? What about oral sex? Heavy petting? Anal?
"I'll have a Guinness, no wait, make that a Coors Light" -Grad student I work with, who shall remain anonymous...
You are exceptionally queer.
You are a paragon of faggotry.
You are an artisan of cocksuckery.
You have an intense field of homosexuality radiating from you.
I'd be curious if anyone can tell me when causing/instilling embarassment in someone (which I consider an abuse of power) is needed.
Thanks,
8-PP
Sorry. This does not work. Think like this;
t p://www.hotgrrls.com/02/index.html ... ...0{1,2,3...}...
5:30 - open 18 netscape windows in the background, with suitable links
5:35 - hard at work with latest paper/project/homework
7:30 - fun
Also think:
http://www.hotgrrls.com/01/index.html
ht
wget -r -l1 -A.jpg -T30 -nc
Just a word of advice: spot check the logs, but don't be brutal when you find nasties.
lf
I think what really helps is to bug the children frequently, like every 30 minutes or so.. Don't ask them what they are doing or anything like that, that shows a lack of trust, just bug them more, what they want is more time without you so they can do stuff behind your back.. What they watch for is cues, like sounds, times of the day, etc.. Just do stuff out of the ordinary, to fudge their plans.. If you find them getting ansy with you, chances are they are hiding something from you.. The best way to handle the problems, if they tend to sit at the computer all day, that's not healthy, you might try planning a trip or asking to go uptown or to play a boardgame.. Also might get them interested in reading books, or other kinds of offline activities.. If you can give them a good excuse to get offline. I mean not to suggest excuses but for them to have activities they can do that allow them to back out of the escape and focus their attention on something else.. Another I would suggest is joining a christian church, like the Church of Christ, or any church that is based on the 1st Century church of christ. Not saying the others can't be good, its just my personal preference. That's not the Bostonian (or International ) Church of Christ, which is a manipulative spinoff that is not unlike a cult in its purest form..
Just say no to license servers!!
Porn is a distorted image of that, and people who build their lives around porn (strippers, prostitutes, pornographers, etc.) ultimatly are destroying themselves and the people around them.
[WARNING: I drift off-topic here. Consider that part of the risk you take in crafting a slippery-slope "porn leads to $FOO" argument -- it's a nice lead-in for me to ramble about $FOO].
People who build their lives around work (coders, designers, sysads, etc.) ultimately are destroying themselves and the people around them.
No, seriously -- I've seen waaay more peoples' relationships destroyed by workaholic tendencies than by porn and all the "alternative lifestyle" bits you associate with it
Granted, there are those whose behaviour is clearly self-destructive -- not merely when viewed through some set of moral guidelines but when taking an objective view of their wellbeing. Typically, though, self-destructive people are self-destructive people -- whether putting themselves into as many bad relationship as they can arrange, ignoring doctors' orders and letting a serious medical condition become life-threatening, or deciding to spend their days gaming rather than looking for work. Just because one can eat oneself' to the point of obesity doesn't mean that food is a bad thing, or even that everyone should be required to hold a 1500-calorie-a-day diet.
A lifestyle element which is destructive in one case may not be so in another. I know some potheads whose lives revolve around their drug -- but I know far more productive members of society who will occasionally partake of a passed-around joint. That alcohol can be used to excess, with exceedingly destructive effects, doesn't mean a one-drink-a-day maximum is always appropriate. Self-destructive people won't be stopped from self-destrution merely by taking away their mechanism, and doing damage to the range of choices available to those who are not self-destructive in the name of protecting those who are is an insult to the intelligence and free will of humanity as a whole.
And hitting on the "alternative lifestyle" bit again: I honestly don't believe that the traditional 1:1 husband/wife closed relationship is the only thing that works, because I've seen too many succesful (long-term, even!) relationships with different foundations at their core. Yup, I've seen unsuccesful alternative relationships as well -- but not grossly out of proportion, and largely involving people with self-destructive tendencies of the sort I mention above.
Okay, all that said, back to answering your points.
I think you have the answer implicit in your own statement. As soon as they test positive for an STD they are no longer working, biweekly tests remember?
Yup. I find this adequate. Every life of business which generates good returns requires either substantial up-front investment or assumed risk; in this case it's the latter. Given that the licensing program requires the individual assuming such risks to be aware of said risks and skilled in minimizing their impact, I find I have few remaining moral objections with regard to assumption by the provider of any level of risk which may remain -- and risk to the customer is quite assuredly lower (by virtue of both the training and the regular tests) than the like risk with a member of the opposite sex picked up at a bar; hence, compared to some of the more popular alternatives, legalized and regulated prostitution is a very safe activity. (WRT risk to the providers: I'm putting on my caloused libertarian exterior here and arguing that someone who, being of legal age, contracts to undertake an activity which poses a risk regarding which said individual is fully informed, assumes said risk in such a way that they've only themselves to blame should the risked danger befall them -- same applies to factory workers risking industrial accidents, typists risking repetitive strain injuries and anyone else whose profession includes connotations of risk. It's cases where a
Your point about us in the US not hearing the whole story is well-taken. I just think its stupid to say "Oh they killed Qusay Hussein's 15-year-old son! They're just brutal killers!" which is what the OP was basically saying. It is always stupid to base statements on extremely incomplete stories, especially if the statements are as harsh as that is.
I am willing to accept that what I know is incomplete or at worst false. But do you seriously believe that those murdering US troops know exactly what happened and aren't being misled also? Plus, most likely some of these attacks are not committed in retalliation, but out of a hatred for Americans in general.
"It is not desirable to cultivate a respect for the law so much as for the right."
-- Henry David Thoreau, Civil Disobedience
You're correct, our definitions of evil do differ substantially. My definition of evil is considerably older than your 20th century moral relativism.
Evil is the destruction of a human being.
So from this it logicaly follows that the following are evils: (In no particular order and by no means a comlete list)
DEATH, debility, sickness, poison, violence, WAR, cruelty, hatred, jealosy, envy, terrorism, bald tires, arson, stealing, selfishness, malnutrition, porn, murder, gluttony, averice, gossip, insanity ...
What part of "harm without knowing consent" is relative? I'd call that a pretty damn black-and-white line... it's just a line that's different than the one you draw.
I'll grant that there are special cases -- but your definition has them too. Imprisoning or fining someone who's committed a crime is harm, and the only "consent" available is the implicit acceptance of possible consequences in commitment of the crime. That same case applies to your definition -- why isn't imprisoning someone judged guilty of a crime *evil*?
"without knowing consent."
why isn't imprisoning someone judged guilty of a crime *evil*?
What makes you think it isn't? It may be necessary, prudent, and the only possible way to prevent more evil from being commited, but what makes you think that imprisoning a human being is, in any way, shape, or form, anything but an evil act?
WRT being evil, I'd say it's what would horrify 95% of the population, while most of the other 5% might not understand why it horrifies people, but they know it does. The evil are those who could care less. Now, the small percentage who are oblivious to the horror that their actions cause would qualify as evil for me. on the other hand, (the) most evil people are those who know that their actions horrify most people and embark on them for that reason.
Your definition has the advantage of being widely believed, but I don't think it's the correct one.
If I am a soldier and (in war) I take an action which sinks a ship and drowns (say) 200 of my enemies, am I evil? Most people would say no.
If I, a civilian, set off a bomb and kill 200 random adult civilians, am I evil? A lot of people would probably say yes.
It's either evil or not evil to kill 200 people. The D.C. sniper is considered evil for doing what soldiers are praised for. Sanction by a government should not be enough to lend moral rightness to an action. A thing is either right or it is not right.
If a thing is considered acceptable *sometimes* as in (say) under conditions of war, then I assert that it isn't evil. Not to say some actions taken in war cannot be classified as evil, but the ones which everyone is still proud of two decades later are clearly not viewed as such, so I shall pretend they are not.
If a soldier does something in war, then he or the person who ordered him to do it is responsible. If it is considered then and now acceptable to have done the thing, then a person doing that thing is not evil by virtue of having done so.
You think no hero's in (say) world war two didn't suicide-bomb enemies in stunts involving grenades?
I don't think it's the action which makes someone evil. Evil is a state of mind.
From a completely different perspective: Evil is what's morally incorrect, regardlss of why it's done, in which case (depending on your system of morality) all war (for exmple) is evil. I think "Evil" is too powerful/big a word to use for something with so many cases, so for this type of thing I prefer "wrong" or "bad".
The argument over Saddam was not whether he was evil.. it was whether the US had the right to demand an invasion of Iraq on Bush's timetable -- especially when you consider that Saddam got much (if not most) of his WMD technology and equipment from the US (with US government assistance, even).
The argument is not over Saddam, but over Iraq. Bush constantly says "Saddam was/is evil" because this plays to peoples fears and justifies any action.
I still in no way believe he is evil. Immoral (by my standards) but not evil.
I want my Cowboyneal
It is because so many people and things are, under the definition you give, evil that I do not use that definition. Evil is a powerful word and should be reserved for the *most extreme* cases, not any case past a certain point.
For actions which dissagree with my moral value system (ie, murder) I use terms such as immoral, bad, and wrong. Evil is something else.
I want my Cowboyneal
"without knowing consent."
Okay, you assert that it's relative. I assert that it's not. Show me how "knowing consent" is any more relative than the definition of "destruction of a human being", and I might be impressed. Both have fuzzy areas -- places where you say it's destructive and I say it's not, places where I say consent is given and you say it's not -- but both have very clear, very firm areas where the condition is met or isn't.
[W]hat makes you think that imprisoning a human being is, in any way, shape, or form, anything but an evil act?
Because doing evil is wrong. If you believe that mitigating circumstances ("necessary, prudent" and so forth) can make doing an evil thing right, your moral position is one hell of a lot more relative than mine is.
While I respect your views, I would think the mass graves in Iraq would say that Saddam is indeed evil, whether he believes he was right or not.
In fact, I don't think that mass murder makes one inherently evil. It is, of course, a good sign of evilness, but it can't be the deciding factor. Does an evil action make an evil person? I don't think so. Maybe you disagree.
Kind of like saying, "Hitler wasn't evil, just misunderstood."
You make it sound like that would be an insane point to take. I could argue it... I might even be successful, though I doubt I could convince most people, yourself probably included. But it's not an impossible case, the argument is there and is easy to make.
I want my Cowboyneal
"Bin Laden is evil too. As is anyone who purposely targets civilians"
... aaand in the right corner some equally crazed powermongers who deside without blinking which dictator to support and which one to blast to oblivion...) it's a bit futile.
I totally agree with you. This discussion is about some metaphysical meaning of evil and how it applies. I like your candidness way better.
But this incidentally makes the US evil. Whether they called it "Soft targets" or hospitals, farms, community gathering places, they've done horrible things in Central America, Africa and Asia, and not so long ago.
Actually, it makes most western countries and the former USSR evil. We've indulged in meddling and reinforcing horrible behaviour in those who'd happily slaughter their own people for wealth and power and discouraging or outright murdering those who wouldn't. All for raw materials and 'political balance'. Any CIA man will happily say the US was the cleverest and most vicious one in this game.
If you disagree or think this is leftist whining, I've met more than enough conservatives who abhor our recent past and are doing their damnest to rectify it - even as we continue to do more of the same.
I thought I was going to explode when spokesmen from the current Bush administration said - in mid election -they didn't think the US could support a leftist government in El Salvador. It would be disastrous for the country, a step backward, an invitation to more violence. I don't care who wins, whether it's the party that used to support death escaders and horrible army acts or the party that used to be the guerilla and has done their own share of warcrimes. They both have become moderate and it seems they know they need to cooperate in order to get things done. But if one country shouldn't impose it's will on El Salvador, it's the US.
The people who make up Bushes brains right now are the same ones who didn't care american civilians - nuns, priests, journalists, human rights workers - got raped and slaughtered by their subsedized salvadorian army buddies in the eighties - for trying to protect an abused population.
The US pumped more money in that pityfully small country than in any other country - military support and guidance. No peace, blast those commies to kingdom come. Afterwards conservative observers stated they "had no idea about the willingness of the Salvadorian government to slaughter and torture their own". They could have had, if they'd taken the time to grill their CIA observers and desision makers. They didn't. So they could gladly say "Ich habe es nicht gewusst"
There's nothing mothers of murdered children can do to make powerful countries change their politics, nothing at all. That is evil. This arrogant blindness, this unwillingness to know.
And trying to "define" who's the more evil, (in the left corner a crazed Saudi who preys on disillusioned muslims to kill wholesale
I think, therefore I am...I think.
BTW - I think that the Enlightenment idea that evil requires consent is hysterical, or it would be if so many people didn't buy into it.
Free means no restrictions, ironic the FSF's GPL forces restrictions, isn't it? What's your definition of free?
Not quite, you having freedom always requires me to give up some freedom, so it's about everyone having the same freedoms. For example, the only way to gain the freedom to live is if we all give up the freedom to kill. Likewise the only way we can have freedom from proprietary restrictions is if we all give up the freedom to restrict others. That is what the GPL is about. It is a social contract, that exchanges one freedom for another (presumably more desirable) one.
If I, a civilian, set off a bomb and kill 200 random adult civilians, am I evil? A lot of people would probably say yes.
Almost everything occurs in context.... For example, killing in self defence is not considered as evil as killing in 'cold blood'. If you want to OK things outside of context, then I'd have to guess that you'd classify 9/11 as not evil.
Some people consider the bombing of Hiroshima to be not evil -- or, at the worst, a necessary evil. If japan had had the bomb to use in reply, theiy might have nuked New York (or more likely LA or SF). Would this mean that the same bombing outside the context of war would be OK??? The nuking was borderline in the context of war. Outside of that context it is clearly unacceptable.
Try talking to a soldier who was directly involved in house to house fighting during wartime... We might be able to accept the actions from our safe, sanitized homes, but some of them are still haunted by what they did and saw.
On the other hand, I know one person who was a Navy seal. One member of his group actually enjoyed the violence and killing. Some time after the war, he was arrested. He had walked up to a random house, rang the door, and when a woman answered, he raped her.
Some people do the horrifying because they feel they must. Others do it for self satisfaction, and simply look for excuses that can make their actions acceptable and/or bearable in the eyes of their community. In the grey space of good/evil the latter are among the most evil in my eyes.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
Nothing to do with the net, everything to do with raising your children.
Set a loose framework of rules that will give them enough room to make their own decisions (and mistakes) and experience the consequences but prevent them from doing things that you would absolutely, never ever accept, regardless of age.
Explain the rules in advance, make sure they understand and try to make them agree in principle. Then, follow these rules religiously, always be consistent but be fair.
> Don't ever lie to us about what you're doing.
That should be, IMO, be rule #1: Never lie to us about anything.
Teaching them the meaning of trust and accepting responsibility for their actions is one of the most important lessons you can give.
"without knowing consent" means that the same act can be evil or not depending on the assent of the target.
Absolutely. I think we agree that this in fact the case. If I consent to give you my car, and you take it, then what you've done is appropriate. If you take my car without my consent, what you've done is evil.
Giving you my car may be something that does me harm -- maybe I don't have another ready way to get to work in the morning -- but that's my own lookout; if I decide I want to give you my car (for whatever reason -- maybe you offered me something in return, maybe you needed it more than me and I like helping my friends), then you're doing nothing wrong by taking it.
I did not say the mitigating circumstances make doing an evil thing right. I am saying that regardless of circumstances the act is evil. War is evil; does that mean it's unnecessary, no; does that make it less evil, also no. We human beings can no more avoid doing evil than we can avoid breathing. But we can try.
If I had to come up with one reason I prefer my moral stance, you've made it abundantly clear: By my definition of evil, evil is something one can succesfully avoid. You may go and argue why evil things are unavoidable -- and engage in such actions while knowing them to be evil. Evil, by my definition, is something which can be avoided in full -- and when I don't avoid it, I have no excuse that it's "no more avoidable than breathing".
A less restrictive definition of "evil", thus, can result in an overall reduction in harmful behaviour in the same manner by which laws which the average man can realistically follow are better respected when unaccompanied by laws which he will not.
Second: Filtering and Logging. You better have some serious filtering software on your compuer already, and most good tools allow you to log what is visited (on all ports) and when.
Third: Review logs regularly, with the child. We have a weekly family meeting each Sunday where we plan out our next week's activities, who gets the car, etc. Before each meeting, I pull down their computer logs, go through any possibly questionable activities, and discuss it with them. If they visited a bunch of web sites that don't have DNS values, we go into their computer and pull up each page. It's kind of fun to see how when they just got caught, they don't ask to be out late or for the car as much. :-)
Fourth: Enforce your penalties. (part 1 - terminate internet access) I have written up scripts that my wife and I can use to disable each computer through the router with three mouse clicks. If they get on another computer, EVERYBODY loses access until daddy gets home and reprograms the router. If dad is too busy to reprogram the router for a few days, they know that my wife can't, so they just have to wait.
Enforce your penalties. (part 2 - terminate computer access) When access to the computer, and not to the internet, is the problem, be prepared to shut down the computer. Putting a remote-control switch into the monitor isn't that hard to do. If you can survive the ads, X10 has great little remote-controls that you can put on your keychain. I also have no problems with simply turning off their computer. If they don't bother to listen to me when I tell them to get off the computer, they should expect to lose data when I shut it off for them.
Enforcing penalties. (part 3- let the siblings punish repeat offenders) It took a while when one of mine tried to push the limits on this -- thats the one who tried to steal the keychain. The answer was simple: no cooperation means no computer for ANY child, except for homework for the non-violators, for one month. All game disks were confiscated, and the worst game CDs were broken. (hint: stringing CDs up through a thin cable bike lock works well.) The other kids were fairly mad at him, and came up with some creative ways to ostricise him. One of the girls even managed to get some of his friends against him for that month.
Our boy still tries to push the limits occasionally, but the girls are quick to keep him in line. Finally, you can't get lax with the rules, or they WILL be taken advantage of. It's easier to do a little work each week and keep the kids in line than to let them get out of control for a while and try to force them back.
Good luck!
frob
//TODO: Think of witty sig statement
I don't think you "whip out" tits.
> But a teenager IS a child. A child with 5 more years of legal childhood and 8 more years of actual childhood still ahead of them. A child that is about to enter the most difficult years of his life. Why do you wish to add to his burdens?
The teenager in question is 13. 13 + 8 = 21.
Where I come from, 19 year-olds sometimes have to lead other people into battle, which requires assuming responsibility of other people's lives.
Most of them handle it in a pretty mature way (including those that risk their lives to save a comrade in arms and those that "voluntary" go to jail because they refuse to participate in said battles based on their moral principles).
I would hesitate to call a 21 years old "a child".
A less restrictive definition of "evil", thus, can result in an overall reduction in harmful behaviour in the same manner by which laws which the average man can realistically follow are better respected when unaccompanied by laws which he will not.
That's sophistry. That's not addressing the problem, that's simply agreeing to ignore the problem. This is not a problem of legislation, this is more akin to natural law, like F = (m*a + V*dm/dt)! You may feel better about yourself but you have not actually addressed the issue at hand. Which can lead to VERY BAD THINGS!
The responsibility of every human being is to realize what they do and act to mitigate it and to try to do some positive good.
You're presuming the conclusion: My definition only "agrees to ignore" harms done with consent from the so-called victim -- which, as you may recall, I argue to be no problem at all!
The "natural law" argument falls flat on its face: Nobody argues about the law of gravity, because such a thing can be objectively tested. I've yet to see an objective test for "evil", however -- perhaps a heat sensor combined with measurement of ambient sulfur levels?
As for the VERY BAD THINGS you so ominously warn of: If those VERY BAD THINGS happen with the consent of those to whom they occur, so be it! That said, if the argument which you so decried as "sophistry" is correct, and individuals will indeed more closely follow a moral code whose strictures they are in fact capable of complying with, then perhaps the number of VERY BAD THINGS which happen under my preferred code is fewer than those which happen under yours.
The responsibility of every human being is to realize what they do and act to mitigate it and to try to do some positive good.
You know, if I try at it for a bit, I'm sure I can come up with a broad, sweeping, mom-and-apple-pie sounding statement about things that other people ought to do, too. That's not to say that this statement actually creates some moral obligation on the part of others, or would make me a better person for having said it.
The only clear obligation which I see as essential to an effectively functioning society is "first, do no harm". To actively help others -- to do good -- is not a baseline that is expected of every individual (such that any individual who helps others is doing no more than the duty obliged them), but an outstanding act by which the individual who does good can be considered to have gone above and beyond the call of duty.
Once again, this mode of thought is intended to encourage good works; those who go above and beyond are allowed more room for self-praise -- and thus more encouragement to continue their good works -- than those who are merely trying to counterbalance the effects of those unavoidable evils they've committed. Likewise, trying to earn a few more points towards the fulfillment of an unending obligation is not an entirely encouraging situation. Compare the man working to pay off a $5 billion debt to the man working for pay he can keep; the former is far more likely to become unenthused regarding his efforts.
Now, let's try looking at this from another perspective. A few questions (and yes, they're a bit leading):
I don't see the harm. My parents didn't really have any rules, though they didn't really approve of pornography they never really cared enough to stop me if i did. Personally when I'm a parent, I will be more concerned with my children reading hate literature on the internet than harmless pornography. Or not working when they should be. Or protecting them from online predators, scams etc. I mean if I really care I can just throw up network monitoring tools on the network anyways and figure out exactly what my kids are doing.
So basicly you're saying that there are no consequences to our actions? The natural law argument derives from the biological nature of human beings, violate that nature and you will reap cosequences. Now if you've bought into the idea that human nature is infinitly malleable then, well, I have to say that I stongly disagree with your axioms. That being the case we have to discuss basic terms of discussion. Such as the word "is".
BTW a great objective test for the presence of evil- Dead Human Bodies.
Now, let's try looking at this from another perspective. A few questions (and yes, they're a bit leading):
I have a quick question for you. Please don't take this the wrong way, but since your questions amounted to the same thing I thought I would ask yo directly.
Are you a fool?
Of course not -- I'm merely rejecting your premise that all actions with negative consequences are "evil", and consequently your presumption that testing for negative consequences is implicitly testing for evil.
BTW a great objective test for the presence of evil- Dead Human Bodies.
Counterexample: Old age isn't evil -- being an impersonal force it cannot be -- yet it results in dead bodies. Further, there are a great many things which are evil but which don't result in dead bodies. Theft, fraud... and so forth. Keep looking for that objective test.
No, I may be a fool. Therefore I must be careful. Neither are you unless you have acess to all relavent information and know when you have it all. Since some of the information I need to make a good decision will not exist until after the fact, at best I can only act in my percieved best interests.
Yes, of *course* you're being careful -- being careful when you need to is part of being competant, after all.
That said: You obviously have some kind of ruleset (perhaps one based in large part on the moral positions you're presently defending) which permits you to choose actions which you believe to be less disadvantageous than others -- if you had no such thing, your actions would be nothing but arbitrary. You believe that the actions you choose using this ruleset are, by and large, better than the actions you would choose without using this ruleset -- otherwise you wouldn't choose to use the ruleset, and certainly wouldn't be defending it here. (Remember, I didn't say "perfect", I said "competant").
No, I have and will be harmed by the unintended consequences of others actions. Unless you believe that my car getting trashed by a drunk while I was asleep in my bed is somehow my fault? The drunk had to mow down a fence and an apple tree to get to my car BTW.
*sigh*. I didn't ask if you would be subject to no damages, I asked if you would be subject to no additional damages -- that is to say, any damages which you are not already subject to. The drunk trashing your car, for instance, is obviously a form of damage to which you are already subject. By going off on this tangeant, you have completely avoided answering the question I asked.
You presume that no one is a fool. Incidently, fools do not believe they are fools. Lastly, many times a fool in his own cause can be wise in anothers cause. We should look out for each other.
I presume that a fool who does himself harm will be less of a fool next time around, as will his children and/or others who have the wisdom to learn from his mistake. I also presume that self-determination -- freedom, in short -- is a higher standard to uphold than wellbeing, with all the consequences this implies.
Are you a fool?
Heh. Well, I'm pretty damn foolish from time to time, but I wouldn't describe myself as a fool -- for that matter, I can't think of any people I would describe as unqualified fools. I can think of folks who are a bit short on common sense, or not particularly skilled in their profession, or helpless when faced with what should be a fairly simple automotive, plumbing or wiring problem -- and indeed, I fit into at least one of the above categories -- but even so, I'm disinclined to think that meeting any of these criteria makes an individual someone whom I'd without qualifications consider "a fool" except within the narrow scope to which that limitation applies.
If you define "a fool" as "anyone who makes poor decisions", then I no doubt am that, and frequently -- as, in that case, are we all. A definition so loose that it applies to anyone, however, is a definition so loose as to be meaningless; in this case, therefore, I prefer to use one which is substantially more restrictive.
> The moral of this story is that clever children can cheat their way out of a lot of parental and societal rules.
If your children feel the need to cheat you, you must be doing something seriously wrong.
why don't you just insert a camera in their forehead so you can see everything they do.
children must learn some things on their own. to never let them stumble, or make a mistake, is to raise a child who doesn't know how to deal with adversity.
to not trust a child is to raise a child that cannot trust.
this is not to say that a hands-off approach is the way to go either. put some type of net nanny software on their machines and take the time to set it up right. give them an account where they can't change or install anything. you do that for them so you know what's on there. and make yourself the admin on the box.
then give them their privacy. you can't control everything.
i'd love to have seen their toilet training. were guns involved?
My ten year old has been using the computer since she was 2 (had one of those wonderful Microsoft Easy Ball mice for her). She has her own computer in her room, but it is not connected to the internet. She uses it to do art, make music with a Ejay, write reports and of course play games (loves Heroes of Might and Magic 4). We have two other PC's one in office and one hooked to TV (yeah, 36" with SVGA inputs!!!) that do have internet access.
She is starting to bring home assignments from school that require her to do research on the internet for reports and such. Sometimes she just has information she wants to know about. We insist that she get us to help her or be around whenever she uses one of the other computers to get on the internet. She doesn't mind at all, in fact, I think she likes being with us. I know that will probably change in a few years, but right now it feels good to still think she wants us to help and be there for her. We've talked about the fact that there are bad things for little girls out there and that's why we restrict her. It's really no different than determining which movies and TV shows to let her watch. She has learned what is inappropriate and I've seen her actually turn off the TV is something on the Disney channel is a little too racy or violent.
I love my daughter and want her to grow up to be a thoughtful, kind, questioner of authority. I encourage her to ask why and to understand that someday she will have to make her own choices. We are trying to give her a foundation to make good ones by explaining the choices we make regarding what she can and cannot do. It really is all about choices and accepting the consequences of your actions.
So if you choose to allow your children to access the internet, you have a choice about whether you educate them or punish them. 14-16 year olds are going to be curious about sex and if you think they haven't found your old stash of Playboys or your wife's vibrator in the nightstand, you've got to be kidding yourself. You might as well face up to it, that they will get the information from somewhere. Shouldn't it be from someone they love and trust.
Being a 17 year old, I know how your kids might feel... I got an internet accessable box in my room when i was about 11 or 12. You aren't goign to stop them from looking at what they want to look at unless you use some program to stop them (there are MANY out there) Personally, myself and My brother always hated this, and of course, found ways to get around it. Personally, I don't think that trying to stop your kids from looking at porn sites or whatever a very good idea. Any way you try to control them, they are goign to find a way around it. By blocking your kids from things on the internet they just lose faith in you and it makes them mad and upset. Freedom on the internet is what they need. Yes, maybe you don't want your kids looking at certain things, but EVENTUALLY they are going to anyway. What is the point in censoring them from things that they will find about no matter what? Personally, I think that having some rules is ok, but when you start limiting their freedom with the net it will just discorage them and cause rebellion against you. I don't know what kind of household you run, but those are just my 2 cents. ~Alec
I laughed at the story you related about your mother telling a kid where babies come from and the kids mother getting ticked.
I've run into a couple of situations almost exactly like that and had parents howling for my head. My response was "so you tell your kids to tell the truth, but lie to them"?
No karma for you.
BIGstan!
you're right, it was As s cr a ft
;)
he was even skilled enough to lose the last election he ran in to dead guy
Creationists are a lot like zombies. Slow, but powerful and numerous. And they all want to eat our brains.
Tom
Arrr!
I've dated plenty of gals in pr0n, and I also know guys that run pr0n websites. Most pornographers do care about what the models want. They just thought it would be more fun to take pictures of naked sexy women than it would be to, say, work as a construction worker, a computer programmer working on macros all day, or a burger filpper. Who can blame them? They care about the models more than they care about the money because in most cases the models are their friends. There is so much competition in the pr0n industry that I seriously doubt people go into it to get rich anymore. There just isn't enough money. People do it because it's more interesting than your normal run-of-the-mill career.
So, as I do know a lot of people involved with this industry, my question for ddimas is, do you?
You say it like it's a good thing. How is this question relavent?
ddimas says: "Do you really think that pornographers give a s***t about what the models want? They're entire concern is $$$! If they thought they could get away with it (and make lots of MONEY) they'd be doing snuff flicks. Granted there are a few models who enjoy their work, but there are just as many (if not more) who are somehow (boyfriend/pimp, drugs, violence, psycological abuse, some evil combination of all of the previous) coerced."
My question is relavent because you are making assumptions about an industry you know nothing about. Yes, there are some bad apples, just like anywhere else. The Catholic church has it's bad apple's too, doesn't it? Conculsion: pr0n is not automatically evil. Far from it. There is nothing wrong with pleasure as long as your method of deriving pleasure is done in a responsible manner.
You're probably going to discount this, as I don't have a link or source handy to back this up, but I learned a long time ago that a study done by a University had determined that rapists look at far less pornography than the average male. Makes sense. All those sexual frustrations building up with no place to go... Probably why all those priests were molesting little boys. The clergy can't marry, nor can they have sex. So, they flip out. You, my friend, are trying to deny what Nature wants us to have.
In every species of animal on the planet, menstruation and ovulation occur at the same moment, so that males will know it is time to procreate. Every species, that is, except ours. In humans, women menstruate at the time they are least likely to get pregnant. It's almost as if God is holding up a big sign, begging us to have sex. It relives stress. It is good exercise. It's fun. Just because you don't fully understand it's intricacies does not mean that you should be damning everyone else who does. Take your fanaticism and shove it.
What makes you think I'm ignorant of the porn industry? Your conclusion is laughable. Try this one on for size, some Catholic priests are evil men. Does that mean the Church is evil, no; does that mean because there are good people involved in the porn industry that it is NOT an evil enterprise, also no.
You're probably going to discount this, as I don't have a link or source handy to back this up, but I learned a long time ago that a study done by a University had determined that rapists look at far less pornography than the average male. Makes sense. All those sexual frustrations building up with no place to go... Probably why all those priests were molesting little boys. The clergy can't marry, nor can they have sex. So, they flip out. You, my friend, are trying to deny what Nature wants us to have.
I can believe rapists don't much look at porn, why look at pictures of women being raped by other guys when you can do it yourself. BTW most rapists HATE women, that's why they rape.
Regarding the priests, there are fewer sexual predatotrs in Holy Orders than in the population at large. They're just REALLY HIGH PROFILE! BTW Orthodox Christian Priests marry and have children. Celibacy among parish priests is a pecuiliarity of the Roman Catholic Church alone. When did I ever say people shouldn't have sexual relations? That would be silly. I said porn is the wrong context.
In every species of animal on the planet, menstruation and ovulation occur at the same moment, so that males will know it is time to procreate. Every species, that is, except ours. In humans, women menstruate at the time they are least likely to get pregnant. It's almost as if God is holding up a big sign, begging us to have sex. It relives stress. It is good exercise. It's fun. Just because you don't fully understand it's intricacies does not mean that you should be damning everyone else who does. Take your fanaticism and shove it.
Not a biologist I see. Menstration is the process of sloughing off the lining of the uterus. During this process no egg can implant. Therefore the timing is such that it happens almost exactly BETWEEN ovulations. Most female animals go ino HEAT when they are ovulating, which for large bodied mammals is usually in the spring. The rest of the year the entire appuratus pretty much SHUTS DOWN. Primates are an exception to this rule. Human females can best be described as being in a low (just enough to keep the reproductive system pretty much constantly available) state of heat form the ages of thirteen to approximatly forty-five. Given this situation, and that human children are VERY difficult to raise, human females require a level of commitment from human males not generally seen in the animal world. Porn makes a mockery of this. Porn is all about no commitments and so is unnatural for humans. Porn abandons the female after you've had your satisfaction and requires nothing more from you. Porn is about grabbing all of the benefits of human sexuality and paying none of the (very considerable) costs. Porn is irresponsible and ultimatly dangerous.
Now that you've felt free to call me a fanatic, let me ask you something. Would you want your daughter involved in porn? Would you feel better if your wife made a living having SEX with other men? Do you think porn is a good career for your Mother? If you answered no to any of these questions then why is it a good choice for someone elses mother, wife, daughter or sister? Do you think you're better than everyone else?
What makes you think I'm ignorant of the porn industry? Your conclusion is laughable.
Because you have obviously had no experience with it whatsoever. If you have, you haven't stated as such.
Porn is all about no commitments and so is unnatural for humans. Porn abandons the female after you've had your satisfaction and requires nothing more from you. Porn is about grabbing all of the benefits of human sexuality and paying none of the (very considerable) costs. Porn is irresponsible and ultimatly dangerous.
Would you feel better if your wife made a living having SEX with other men?
Obviously, you don't know anyone in an open relationship or marriage. I do. For most responsible adults, it's not a problem. Some people aren't in to it. That's fine. That doesn't discount that some people really don't care if the person they are with goes and has sex with someone else. You'd be surprised how many marriages it can save. Perfect example would be a couple I know that is engaged. The male can't maintain an erection anymore and the female is a diagnosed nympho. Because she's allowed to sleep with whomever she wants, she is able to stay satisfied sexually, and both she and her mate have a completely healthy relationship. They are very happy together and are very commited. She would never dream of leaving him for any of the men she sleeps with. She loves him. He loves her, and doesn't mind her being with other men at all. He knows it makes her happy, and he isn't the jealous type. He knows that when he goes to bed every night for the rest of his life, she'll be there at his side, as she has been for a very long time. I don't expect you do understand any of these alternative lifestyles, they obviously are not for you. Just realize that for some people it not only works, it makes them happy.
Now that you've felt free to call me a fanatic, let me ask you something. Would you want your daughter involved in porn? Would you feel better if your wife made a living having SEX with other men? Do you think porn is a good career for your Mother?
To answer your question, no, I wouldn't care. I'd be amused.
first its important to define what censorship is: i believe that a censor is somebody who knows more than he thinks you should. this being said, i think its quite possible to allow a person who is capable of surfing the web, reading and interpreting the information therein complete access to that information. I'm 22 and have been using computers back when acustic cufflers were all the rage and telix 3.15 was the shiznit. my parents had no idea what i was doing in my room for hours at a time and definetely didn't have intellectual capacity to install censorware TSR's on a DOS 2.11 system. anyway, I grew up on computers, the internet, worked at many ISP's doing tech support and everytime i got a call from a parent wanting to enable IE's content advisor or install net nanny or cybersitter, i thought "oh god, one of those people again" (and naturally if their kids called back later I'd help them remove it just as fast - and much happier)These parents are so afraid of their children being explosed to ideology thats not their own, their willing to accept acute resentment and being labeled a hyprocrit from their children instead of providing them with objective information on what ever it is their so scared of them viewing in the first place. The internet is the ultimate source of objective information, of course you have to goto multiple sites and read the different "slants" presented. But theres no way a slant can be put on a naked lady.. If your really offended by a bare nipple to the point you get paranoid if your kid is minimizing windows when you walk by, thats not really their problem... its yours.. and besides, didn't you ever learn to full screen a window and then make the window with the good stuff smaller and in the middle of the larger one - then just alt-tab at the slightest sound...?? :-)
still, content on a website doesn't kill people or hurt people. its simply reading the opinions of others, or looking at images of life.. anybody can goto rotten.com or ideepthroat.com (Heather is tallented!) and see some cool, interesting of confusing stuff.. but at the end of the day you the parent are still the biggest influence on your childs life. or at least you should be if your doing your job right. spying and snooping is not going to change the underlying reason people goto these sites in the first place: curiosity.. don't address the symptom, address the cause. Why would your kids wanna lookup something you don't like? I would advise to sit down with the kids and talk about whatever it is you dont like and explain your logic. Clearly if you dont like something then you've seen or heard it before and formed a negative opinion about it. Denying your kids the chance to do that for themselves is not going to help. Kids are very logical, if the reason you disagree with something makes sense then you should have no worries.. However, if your scared that your reasons for not liking something wont hold up under their analysis then maybe you need to reevaluate why you dislike it in the first place, and that makes it your problem again, not theirs..
if you dont want them exposed to tales of sex, violence, ritual sacrafise, cannibalism, justified murder, animal slaughter, pologymy and incest, keep them the hell away from the bible too!
also, my original question to you is why would you even want to censor a 15 year olds access to information? at 15 I would be really suprised if he or she hasn't watched a pornographic video, seen a magazine, read communist mannifesto's and the anarchist cookbook, had sex (one of my friends was pregnant at 14 and she never had internet access in her life), taken recreational pharmaceuticals (including the magic powder), and smoked cigerettes..
come on dude, lighten up.. that 15 year old needs an apology.. my creative tendencies, (if i have any lol) certainly would not have flourished living under your reign of terror and thought control. Im a happy 22 year old working on a degree in organic chemistry (with an emphasis on Dr. Shulgins fine works if you know what i mean
To answer your question, no, I wouldn't care. I'd be amused.
Unfortunatly for your argument I looked at your website. You'll learn.
Well, them and the hundreds of people they've personally raped, tortured and killed. Probaly the thousands that they've commanded to be raped, tortured, and killed, too, but I'm just guessing at all of this. What do I really know?
Immediately after having knee-jerk reactions agains things, stop for a second, think about it, maybe do some research.
Hussein *is* (was?) a monster. So are his brothers and sons. The fact that the Bush administration uses that truth as an excuse for lying to America and to fund a war with a hidden agenda does not make it less true. If you need documented proof, there is a whole Frontline series that I believe is available online. It talks about his rise to power. One of his two favorite movies is The Godfather; and Scarface could probably learn a couple of things from him.
I do not see a necessary relation between being "a monster" meaning a really unpleasant human being who does many nasty things, and being "evil."
I want my Cowboyneal
Last Post!
"It is not how things are in the world that is mystical, but that it exists." -Ludwig Wittgenstein