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http://www.insightcentral.net/...

A link to the source.

Undoing my moderation here, but DO NOT pay the stealership $4000 for a NOS NiMH battery. Hybrid Battery Repair sells cells (tee hee) that are actually new, and higher capacity than the original packs (8 ah vs 6.5 ah in the original/honda replacement pack). And they charge $1800 +$200 shipping for the assembled pack. And it's pretty easy to do the swap yourself.

Seriously, replacement packs from Honda for their gen1 hybrids are failing at less than half the mileage the original batteries did. Just search around the InsightCentral.net forum (nearly identical IMA to the HCH1)... some people are getting only 40k miles out of their replacement Honda packs. Ugh.

On that note, as a fellow HCHer and being geeky enough to read Slashdot, definitely check out the OBDIIC&C gauge:
http://www.insightcentral.net/forums/modifications-technical-issues/20488-obdiic-c-gauge.html

Gives you detailed info on the IMA (especially battery temp, shows background charging, the lean-burn light is amazingly useful), and I'm currently guinea-pigging using it to give you manual control of the IMA system:

http://www.insightcentral.net/forums/other-honda-hybrids-discussion/21887-imac-c-hch1-civic.html

Sam

Undoing my moderation here, but DO NOT pay the stealership $4000 for a NOS NiMH battery. Hybrid Battery Repair sells cells (tee hee) that are actually new, and higher capacity than the original packs (8 ah vs 6.5 ah in the original/honda replacement pack). And they charge $1800 +$200 shipping for the assembled pack. And it's pretty easy to do the swap yourself.

Seriously, replacement packs from Honda for their gen1 hybrids are failing at less than half the mileage the original batteries did. Just search around the InsightCentral.net forum (nearly identical IMA to the HCH1)... some people are getting only 40k miles out of their replacement Honda packs. Ugh.

On that note, as a fellow HCHer and being geeky enough to read Slashdot, definitely check out the OBDIIC&C gauge:
http://www.insightcentral.net/forums/modifications-technical-issues/20488-obdiic-c-gauge.html

Gives you detailed info on the IMA (especially battery temp, shows background charging, the lean-burn light is amazingly useful), and I'm currently guinea-pigging using it to give you manual control of the IMA system:

http://www.insightcentral.net/forums/other-honda-hybrids-discussion/21887-imac-c-hch1-civic.html

Sam

in 2004 the average car in the us is 4000 pounds or 2 tons http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/05/business/05weight.html

cars have already been able to achieve 100+ miles per gallon and be completely road worthy. in fact the folks over at insightcentral.com have a forum thread on it. http://www.insightcentral.net/forums/mpg-issues/9562-first-time-over-100mpg.html
these cars are already 100% street / road legal.

The low weight and the 990 CC engine with electric assist ensure that I am the one pulling away with spinning wheels at the lights leaving muscle cars in the dust.

Bullshit. Unless the other guy was asleep. 0-60 in 10.6s.

Precisely what Honda did with the Insight model, and one of the reasons why the Insight is still unchallenged for top fuel efficiency among production vehicles - too bad they discontinued it.

First, we have the description of the Insight from the Honda Web Site. You'll notice that the EPA highway mileage for this version (2006) are 6 MPG higher than the city numbers (66 versus 60). My estimated highway mileage in 2001 was higher.

Second, you might You might also find the owner opinions at insightcentral.net interesting. I've not posted there, but there are some excellent relevant quotes:

I have gone from L.A. to Pennsylvania on four tanks of gas. You have to have the right tire pressure, good gas, follow big vehicles, and just know how to get the most out of the car.

This is certainly a driver's car in many respects. Beyond it's fun-to-drive factor, the central fuel efficiency display has this almost subliminal effect on your driving, helping you to learn how to get the most efficiency out of the car. I think this is an often ignored part of the overall equation.

the Insight's gear ratios take a bit of getting used to. You really have to think of 1st and 2nd gears as accelerating gears, 5 (and at residential speeds 4th) as a cruising gear, and 3rd as highway passing gear. Acceleration is very lively in 1st - enough so that I find myself hesitant to put the pedal to the aluminum in first. Acceleration is also more than adequate in 2nd. These two gears are enough to take you from 0 - 60, which leads to the much talked about Insight 1, 2, 5 gear shifting pattern that some owners adopt for best efficiency (and a little fun along the way).

I bought the car in Kansas in June, then I moved to Maryland in September. On the 1200 or so mile trip, I averaged 73.1 mpg! That was cruising at about 70mph.

Finally, I would point you to a review of the Insight written in about 2005 titled, appropriately enough "Defeating Ignorance With Insight". Here's another relevant passage:

the Insight's estimates of 57 city/56 highway for the automatic transmission and 60/65 for the manual are impressive. And as amazing as those numbers are, real life data shows that it is possible to beat the EPA estimates (See Elsewhere on the Web: GreenHybrid.com mileage database). Forget about getting only 300 miles on a tank of gas.

The reviewer is right, of course. I got 600 miles on my last tank of gas, and filled up (on Friday) for $28.00. That's fairly typical, in my experience, but what do I know?

it's hard for me to see how you'd eliminate slippage in a belt drive.
Modern CVT's use a Van Doorne metal belt, which is said to be without any slippage: http://www.insightcentral.net/encyclopedia/encvt.h tml

Wow Daniel, you really do peddle your website wherever you go don't you? I wouldn't mind if you weren't so persistently placing MULTIPLE links per posting... not even a DIRECT link to the calculator in the second link.
-1 Troll
Ever consider that insightcentral.net became popular because it was reliable, clean and innovative, and you've already been through 2 revisions of your sight with constant 'link' bombardment?

The problem with that Hybrid vs. Taurus comparison is that.. Well, it's too good.

Yes, Insights and Priuses are forward-thinking vehicles designed for a beter future and all that jazz. Yes, Tauruses are traditionals sedans built on the concepts of the past and whatnot.

The fact is, though, that the Taurus still massively outsells the Prius and the Insight.

The Taurus averages about 350,000 sold per year since 1985. ( http://www.internetautoguide.com/reviews/45-int/mi dsize-cars/ford/taurus/2004/ )
The Prius sold all of 24,000 in '03. ( http://slate.msn.com/id/2096191/ )
From 1999 to 2002, the Insight sold just under 11,000 units. ( http://www.insightcentral.net/KB/sales.html )

Take that same concept and apply it to Microsoft vs. "The New Guys" (or whatever you want to call all the various hot new things MicroSoft must defeat to stay relevant) and... You get a very realistic comparison. So a good deal of people are using FireFox and OpenOffice, and Google is THE search engine. People ae still doing all these things from a Windows desktop, and a vast majority stick to the standard MicroSoft offering anyhow.

I'd most definitely love to see the Prius and thew Insight trounce the Taurus. It ain't happenin' soon.

I'd most definitely love to se "The New Guys" trounce MicroSoft. It ain't happenin' soon.

[Be Free.]

I had the same complaint about cars generally looking the same, so I bought a Honda Insight. Looks unique, sips gas, pollutes very little. It's like a cool prototype that some marketing wonk forgot to kill before it went to market.

I came up with a general number -- 1.5 kilowatts, this is about the amount of energy you would need to propel a small car (like a volkswagon beetle, old variety). This is about the same as a small gasoline engine could provide.

I own a 5 speed Insight, model year 2000 that I picked up used. Regarding your post...

Gas Mileage:

Really it depends on how you drive. I'm a lead foot (I enjoy occasionally doing burnouts in the Insight as it annoys me that people seem to think all hybrids are slow, boring, econo-boxes) and I still get 45-50 mpg City and 60-70 mpg highway. The previous owner obviously had no clue how to drive the car as their lifetime average over 35K miles was only 40.1 mpg. If you take the time to re-learn how to drive your car and take it easy with the acceleration it is more than feasible to get well over the EPA rated fuel economy for the Insight. Insight Central lists the best lifetime average fuel consumption recorded by them at 88.3 mpg and the community average as 65 mpg. The best single trip ratings recorded are 103.8 mpg one-way and 87.3 mpg round trip. The EPA ratings for the 5 speed, manual transmission, Insight are 60mpg City and 72mpg Highway. Your mileage will most certainly vary. Everyone drives differently. If you refuse to drive in an efficient manner, don't whine and moan about not getting the EPA rating. The ratings are a bit unrealistic for modern traffic patterns and driving habits, but they aren't unobtainable.

It is also important to note that the battery pack is affected by temperature. The batteries don't like cold very much. If you live in the north, your mileage will suffer during the winter.

Batteries:

Honda warranties the battery pack for 8 years. The cost of a replacement pack is $1500, or about as much as a modern transmission replacement. The battery pack is comprised of 120 smaller batteries (roughly the size of a D cell) welded together into a single 144V pack. These batteries use the NiMH (Nickel-Metal Hydride) chemistry and are not as toxic as NiCad (Nickel Cadmium) or even the PbA (Lead Acid) batteries that you find in your gas car.

Performance:

Yes, the Insight is a peppy little car. It only weighs about 1900 lbs and is made almost entirely out of aluminum and carbon fiber. With the IMA (integrated Motor Assist) active the car only has a peak of 73 hp and 90 lb-ft of torque, but the IMA's power remains fairly constant through the entire RPM band of the 3 cylinder so the oomph is a bit more than someone used to a pure ICE rating would expect. As I mentioned earlier, the small tires and decent torque mean that you can smoke the tires and do burnouts if you want (its murder on the fuel economy, though) and the Insight does 0-60 in about 10 seconds on its way to an 18.9 second 1/4 mile.

Regen:

This is actually in reference to a previous posters comment.

The Insight and Civic do not have little electric motors on each wheel used to recharge the battery pack. (for that matter neither does the Prius) The electric motor attached to the back of the engine block is an AC unit that acts as a generator when braking (and still in gear). Extra electric motors at each wheel just for recharging would just be a lot of dead weight 90% of the time.

I own a 5 speed Insight, model year 2000 that I picked up used. Regarding your post...

Gas Mileage:

Really it depends on how you drive. I'm a lead foot (I enjoy occasionally doing burnouts in the Insight as it annoys me that people seem to think all hybrids are slow, boring, econo-boxes) and I still get 45-50 mpg City and 60-70 mpg highway. The previous owner obviously had no clue how to drive the car as their lifetime average over 35K miles was only 40.1 mpg. If you take the time to re-learn how to drive your car and take it easy with the acceleration it is more than feasible to get well over the EPA rated fuel economy for the Insight. Insight Central lists the best lifetime average fuel consumption recorded by them at 88.3 mpg and the community average as 65 mpg. The best single trip ratings recorded are 103.8 mpg one-way and 87.3 mpg round trip. The EPA ratings for the 5 speed, manual transmission, Insight are 60mpg City and 72mpg Highway. Your mileage will most certainly vary. Everyone drives differently. If you refuse to drive in an efficient manner, don't whine and moan about not getting the EPA rating. The ratings are a bit unrealistic for modern traffic patterns and driving habits, but they aren't unobtainable.

It is also important to note that the battery pack is affected by temperature. The batteries don't like cold very much. If you live in the north, your mileage will suffer during the winter.

Batteries:

Honda warranties the battery pack for 8 years. The cost of a replacement pack is $1500, or about as much as a modern transmission replacement. The battery pack is comprised of 120 smaller batteries (roughly the size of a D cell) welded together into a single 144V pack. These batteries use the NiMH (Nickel-Metal Hydride) chemistry and are not as toxic as NiCad (Nickel Cadmium) or even the PbA (Lead Acid) batteries that you find in your gas car.

Performance:

Yes, the Insight is a peppy little car. It only weighs about 1900 lbs and is made almost entirely out of aluminum and carbon fiber. With the IMA (integrated Motor Assist) active the car only has a peak of 73 hp and 90 lb-ft of torque, but the IMA's power remains fairly constant through the entire RPM band of the 3 cylinder so the oomph is a bit more than someone used to a pure ICE rating would expect. As I mentioned earlier, the small tires and decent torque mean that you can smoke the tires and do burnouts if you want (its murder on the fuel economy, though) and the Insight does 0-60 in about 10 seconds on its way to an 18.9 second 1/4 mile.

Regen:

This is actually in reference to a previous posters comment.

The Insight and Civic do not have little electric motors on each wheel used to recharge the battery pack. (for that matter neither does the Prius) The electric motor attached to the back of the engine block is an AC unit that acts as a generator when braking (and still in gear). Extra electric motors at each wheel just for recharging would just be a lot of dead weight 90% of the time.

I bought a used 2000 Insight (5 spd) and I've had it for about 7 months now.

In my experience, I've consistently gotten around 60 miles to the gallon . In the winter it dropped to ~59 (Missouri weather), but on my current tank of gas I have gotten 64.8 MPG over the last 240+ miles. I drive about 5 miles to work one way in city roads, with an max speed of around 40 mph and several stop lights. On weekends I drive it on the highways and my mpg figure usually rises even on a 5-10 mile trip on the highway, which I figure means that I've gotten significantly better mileage. My worst mileage was when i drove to Indiana last thanksgiving and I did 80 mph most of the way. I got 55 MPG then.

In my opinion, the hybrids need to be driven a certain way. You can't really drive them the way you drive a regular car (accelerate too fast / brake fast). Dont get me wrong, I still accelerate normally, but being able to anticipate stops better and using the regenerative braking and getting the engine into auto-stop faster when the batteries are charged works like a charm for me. Insight Central has some driving tips that helped me a lot.

I'd chalk this guys problems up to him not adjusting his driving style to fit the car. Thats my 2cents.

I bought a used 2000 Insight (5 spd) and I've had it for about 7 months now.

In my experience, I've consistently gotten around 60 miles to the gallon . In the winter it dropped to ~59 (Missouri weather), but on my current tank of gas I have gotten 64.8 MPG over the last 240+ miles. I drive about 5 miles to work one way in city roads, with an max speed of around 40 mph and several stop lights. On weekends I drive it on the highways and my mpg figure usually rises even on a 5-10 mile trip on the highway, which I figure means that I've gotten significantly better mileage. My worst mileage was when i drove to Indiana last thanksgiving and I did 80 mph most of the way. I got 55 MPG then.

In my opinion, the hybrids need to be driven a certain way. You can't really drive them the way you drive a regular car (accelerate too fast / brake fast). Dont get me wrong, I still accelerate normally, but being able to anticipate stops better and using the regenerative braking and getting the engine into auto-stop faster when the batteries are charged works like a charm for me. Insight Central has some driving tips that helped me a lot.

I'd chalk this guys problems up to him not adjusting his driving style to fit the car. Thats my 2cents.

Electric motors on each of the wheels to generate power while braking and to assist the IC drivetrain

it looks like my 1992 1.5L Civic Hatchback is(was) more fuel efficient (city and highway) than the modern 2004 Civic Hybrid.

Comparing the old highly efficient Civics to the Insight is unfair, as you note. It's also unfair to compare with the Civic Hybrid, which is larger, heavier, and has more features (adding to the weight) and seats, and an automatic transmission. Instead, compare Civic Hybrid to its feature-comparable Civic cousin, the EX or the LX. You will see a 30%-40% difference in mpg.

Now, it turns out that even with gas prices around $2/gal, the price premium for Civic Hybrid over EX probably means it won't pay for itself in a long time, if ever. But you might want to consider the other costs of gasoline that you don't pay at the pump.

When you drive a hybrid, you will get better mileage if you change your habits to make more effective use of the hybrid's abilities. This doesn't mean you have to poke along... I accelerate hard so that I am using my batteries and minimizing the time I spend burning a lot of fuel in the gasoline engine. Plus, it's fun. You'll also get better mileage if you pay attention to things like tire pressure. Dealers like to inflate my Insight tires to 32 psi all around, even though 38 psi is what Honda recommends. An Insight with 32 psi tires looks like it's running on flats. I inflate to 44 psi. The mileage change is dramatic.

As for the original article, it has some good points in it about the EPA tests. It also has some real head-scratchers, like this: "Schmidt says hybrid cars use computers to more precisely control the flow of gasoline and have more efficient catalytic converters..." and this "hybrid cars' ability to limit emissions contributes to the disparity in EPA versus real-world numbers." There are many, many cars that have the same or better EPA emissions rating (10/10) as the Civic Hybrid and the Toyota Prius. All cars today use computers to regulate gasoline flow.

When you get your hybrid, turn on its instantaneous readout of mpg and use it to give you feedback on your driving. It will train you. Happy driving...

When you drive a hybrid, you will get better mileage if you change your habits to make more effective use of the hybrid's abilities. This doesn't mean you have to poke along... I accelerate hard so that I am using my batteries and minimizing the time I spend burning a lot of fuel in the gasoline engine. Plus, it's fun. You'll also get better mileage if you pay attention to things like tire pressure. Dealers like to inflate my Insight tires to 32 psi all around, even though 38 psi is what Honda recommends. An Insight with 32 psi tires looks like it's running on flats. I inflate to 44 psi. The mileage change is dramatic.

As for the original article, it has some good points in it about the EPA tests. It also has some real head-scratchers, like this: "Schmidt says hybrid cars use computers to more precisely control the flow of gasoline and have more efficient catalytic converters..." and this "hybrid cars' ability to limit emissions contributes to the disparity in EPA versus real-world numbers." There are many, many cars that have the same or better EPA emissions rating (10/10) as the Civic Hybrid and the Toyota Prius. All cars today use computers to regulate gasoline flow.

When you get your hybrid, turn on its instantaneous readout of mpg and use it to give you feedback on your driving. It will train you. Happy driving...

When you drive a hybrid, you will get better mileage if you change your habits to make more effective use of the hybrid's abilities. This doesn't mean you have to poke along... I accelerate hard so that I am using my batteries and minimizing the time I spend burning a lot of fuel in the gasoline engine. Plus, it's fun. You'll also get better mileage if you pay attention to things like tire pressure. Dealers like to inflate my Insight tires to 32 psi all around, even though 38 psi is what Honda recommends. An Insight with 32 psi tires looks like it's running on flats. I inflate to 44 psi. The mileage change is dramatic.

As for the original article, it has some good points in it about the EPA tests. It also has some real head-scratchers, like this: "Schmidt says hybrid cars use computers to more precisely control the flow of gasoline and have more efficient catalytic converters..." and this "hybrid cars' ability to limit emissions contributes to the disparity in EPA versus real-world numbers." There are many, many cars that have the same or better EPA emissions rating (10/10) as the Civic Hybrid and the Toyota Prius. All cars today use computers to regulate gasoline flow.

When you get your hybrid, turn on its instantaneous readout of mpg and use it to give you feedback on your driving. It will train you. Happy driving...

The diesel in the VW is proven technology, but I was also worried about how the hybrids would be in an accident.

Other hybrids: all part of the Prius gets 5 stars on front impacts. Civic Hybrid would be no different from regular Civics.

The diesel in the VW is proven technology, but I was also worried about how the hybrids would be in an accident.

Other hybrids: all part of the Prius gets 5 stars on front impacts. Civic Hybrid would be no different from regular Civics.

I have heard that electrical wiring in the new hybrids run through all sorts of places, including roof and roof posts.

The short version is: cut the ignition. When you do this on the Insight, it throws a physical switch that cuts off the IMA. For example, a dead 12V battery on the Insight will prevent you from starting the car, even if the IMA battery (which always starts the car) is fully charged.

Problem is, this is GM's engineering that believes it's not viable. You give a billion to a group of morons, you get results like this. Meanwhile GM gets spanked by Toyota and Honda bringing not only good hybrids, but supercars
that use supplementary electric motors powering specific wheels.

Admittedly, they don't currently manufacture purely electric cars, but in the future I'm sure everyone will. It's mainly about crappy battery technology at this point. Batteries are one of the few technologies that have been in a coma while the rest of the tech revolution (that requires batteries all the time) surges ahead.

Great mileage: You can drive it like a j-random normal 5-speed can and get about 63.5 MPG (3.7 L/100km). With a little practice and following some standard tips you can get a lot more. I usually get about 750 miles to 900 miles (about 1200 km to 1450 km) on a 11 US gal (41.6L) tank (68.1 MPG to 81.9 MPG == 3.45 L/100km to 2.87 L/100km).

Good pep: Pushed 108 MPH on a test track. Could have gone a bit higher but test track conditions were not the best. (Hint: your mileage suffers at that speed, so I don't recommend it that fast :-)). More than enough zip to make it onto a freeway with a short on-ramp.

Fun to drive. I love the idle stop feature (engine turns off under certain conditions). The digital display panel is well designed and can give you good feedback (out of the corner of you eye) what works

People really notice it, even after 2+ years. When gas prices in California push their way towards $2/Gal (and beyond :-( ), I start to get a lot more people asking about it.

I highly recommend a visit to the www.insightcentral.net for detailed info on the Honda Insight, pictures of internal guts, tips and tricks owner forum, mileage database, etc.

Great mileage: You can drive it like a j-random normal 5-speed can and get about 63.5 MPG (3.7 L/100km). With a little practice and following some standard tips you can get a lot more. I usually get about 750 miles to 900 miles (about 1200 km to 1450 km) on a 11 US gal (41.6L) tank (68.1 MPG to 81.9 MPG == 3.45 L/100km to 2.87 L/100km).

Good pep: Pushed 108 MPH on a test track. Could have gone a bit higher but test track conditions were not the best. (Hint: your mileage suffers at that speed, so I don't recommend it that fast :-)). More than enough zip to make it onto a freeway with a short on-ramp.

Fun to drive. I love the idle stop feature (engine turns off under certain conditions). The digital display panel is well designed and can give you good feedback (out of the corner of you eye) what works

People really notice it, even after 2+ years. When gas prices in California push their way towards $2/Gal (and beyond :-( ), I start to get a lot more people asking about it.

I highly recommend a visit to the www.insightcentral.net for detailed info on the Honda Insight, pictures of internal guts, tips and tricks owner forum, mileage database, etc.

Great mileage: You can drive it like a j-random normal 5-speed can and get about 63.5 MPG (3.7 L/100km). With a little practice and following some standard tips you can get a lot more. I usually get about 750 miles to 900 miles (about 1200 km to 1450 km) on a 11 US gal (41.6L) tank (68.1 MPG to 81.9 MPG == 3.45 L/100km to 2.87 L/100km).

Good pep: Pushed 108 MPH on a test track. Could have gone a bit higher but test track conditions were not the best. (Hint: your mileage suffers at that speed, so I don't recommend it that fast :-)). More than enough zip to make it onto a freeway with a short on-ramp.

Fun to drive. I love the idle stop feature (engine turns off under certain conditions). The digital display panel is well designed and can give you good feedback (out of the corner of you eye) what works

People really notice it, even after 2+ years. When gas prices in California push their way towards $2/Gal (and beyond :-( ), I start to get a lot more people asking about it.

I highly recommend a visit to the www.insightcentral.net for detailed info on the Honda Insight, pictures of internal guts, tips and tricks owner forum, mileage database, etc.

Great mileage: You can drive it like a j-random normal 5-speed can and get about 63.5 MPG (3.7 L/100km). With a little practice and following some standard tips you can get a lot more. I usually get about 750 miles to 900 miles (about 1200 km to 1450 km) on a 11 US gal (41.6L) tank (68.1 MPG to 81.9 MPG == 3.45 L/100km to 2.87 L/100km).

Good pep: Pushed 108 MPH on a test track. Could have gone a bit higher but test track conditions were not the best. (Hint: your mileage suffers at that speed, so I don't recommend it that fast :-)). More than enough zip to make it onto a freeway with a short on-ramp.

Fun to drive. I love the idle stop feature (engine turns off under certain conditions). The digital display panel is well designed and can give you good feedback (out of the corner of you eye) what works

People really notice it, even after 2+ years. When gas prices in California push their way towards $2/Gal (and beyond :-( ), I start to get a lot more people asking about it.

I highly recommend a visit to the www.insightcentral.net for detailed info on the Honda Insight, pictures of internal guts, tips and tricks owner forum, mileage database, etc.

Great mileage: You can drive it like a j-random normal 5-speed can and get about 63.5 MPG (3.7 L/100km). With a little practice and following some standard tips you can get a lot more. I usually get about 750 miles to 900 miles (about 1200 km to 1450 km) on a 11 US gal (41.6L) tank (68.1 MPG to 81.9 MPG == 3.45 L/100km to 2.87 L/100km).

Good pep: Pushed 108 MPH on a test track. Could have gone a bit higher but test track conditions were not the best. (Hint: your mileage suffers at that speed, so I don't recommend it that fast :-)). More than enough zip to make it onto a freeway with a short on-ramp.

Fun to drive. I love the idle stop feature (engine turns off under certain conditions). The digital display panel is well designed and can give you good feedback (out of the corner of you eye) what works

People really notice it, even after 2+ years. When gas prices in California push their way towards $2/Gal (and beyond :-( ), I start to get a lot more people asking about it.

I highly recommend a visit to the www.insightcentral.net for detailed info on the Honda Insight, pictures of internal guts, tips and tricks owner forum, mileage database, etc.

I suspect that the max weight on the Insight is more of "here's how we got the mpg rating we did" than "366 pounds will break the car". There's a FAQ at InsightCentral which contends that "Honda tells us that the 365 lb figure is based on obtaining optimal performance and fuel efficiency, and that the car won't be damaged by exceeding this limit."

Remember too, the Insight has a maximum payload of 365 pounds -- including passengers.

That's not really true. The 365-pound figure is just a performance and efficiency guideline. See Is it a problem to exceed the 365 lb (165 kg) weight limit? from the very informative InsightCentral.net.

Remember too, the Insight has a maximum payload of 365 pounds -- including passengers.

That's not really true. The 365-pound figure is just a performance and efficiency guideline. See Is it a problem to exceed the 365 lb (165 kg) weight limit? from the very informative InsightCentral.net.

I use NiMH as well. Especially for those pesky wireless mice, which go through pairs of alkaline AAs about every two weeks. They last absurdly long in TV remotes, and about a month or more in my wife's Palm. If I had a digital camera I'd be even more stoked on rechargeables. I'm certainly stoked that NiMH batteries (120 D cells) are in my car.

Wrong. Ford, like other vehicle manufacturers, sell what is most profitable. SUVs were comparatively cheap to make, and sold for a nice premium. That they were in vogue only helped to make that market segment the most profitable for them. However, if you ask the average American, buying an unsafe, gas-guzzling automobile is probably not what they want. However, that is what they get when they buy conventional SUVs.

So those millions of people that own an SUV don't really want one, they're just forking over 350-400 per month for no good reason?

We'll start here. 'Unsafe' is subjective term, like all accident data. If I'm going to be in a head on accident, I'll take an explorer over my own S-10 (which garnered only 3 stars according to government crash test data). Same goes for side impact. You are statisically more likely to be hit than to hit someone. If you're being hit, then no, I'd rather not get hit by an SUV. I'd also not want to be hit by a semi, Fed-EX truck, Special Ed. Bus, or any other heavy vehicle that sits higher than my own car.

SUV sales are still brisk, although larger models such as the expedition, and lincoln's new aviator have fallen off, mostly due to the deservedly poor reviews. Strangely enough, the fastest selling vehicle in the first half of this year has been the H2 hummer.

Why then did Ford and other automakers suddenly announce fuel-cell cars, and hybrids? Because someone actually started selling hybrids to the American public - cars that weren't styled too strangely or overpriced (due to low production volume.) Can you say fear of the Japanese again?

Have you looked an a honda insight? It looks strange and is horridly over priced considering it's functionality. great gas milage, but as a family car it falls short of even the accord or camry.

Kudos to Toyota and Honda for actually putting THEIR money where the market is. Boo on Ford for announcing a hybrid Escape well over a year ago, and (evidently) pushing the release date back by another year... AGAIN.

If by market you mean "sell a few hundred cars so our PR people can get in good" then yes, you are correct. the closest data I couple find comes from an insight fan site here. 2001 sales of 4726 and 2002 sales of 2,216 don't consitute much of a market. That includes a one-time $2000 IRS Clean Fuel Vehicles tax credit on top of regular honda incentives. those sales put it behind even the Pontiac Aztec, a spectacular failure in comparison to most cars and SUV's

The 'sudden announcment' of hybrid vehicles; could just be reaction to our glorious and fearless leader's announcment that there was government (read: free) money in them thar hills for the development of fuel cell and hybrid vehicles?

'Alternative fuel vehicles' have been under continuous development by the big three automakers since the dawn of the industry, and long before it was fashionable. It's called innovation. if there is a chance to make money by being unique, someone will try it. Steam powered and electric cars have been around sinces the turn of the century, back when they were as functional as the early gasoline engines. through the 50's and 60's Chrysler had been doing work on turbine engines, only to see the program die without fruitition in the late 70s. the Ford and GM electric car programs have all but died at the hands of the fuel cell vehicle.

The hybrid Escape hits the market in the middle of next year to coincide with the release of several newly redesigned vehicles (including the mustang, getting it's first ground up redesign since 1977). Escape hyrbids will enter fleet services this year. The main delay in getting the escape to the streets has been the mandate from Bill Ford jr. that the hybrid vehicle's performance be as close to that of a regular escape as possible.

Hybrid vehicles are a niche market car in the US. In Europe or Japan

My car already has a 144 volt electrical system. (Enough to power the car up a hill.) With the battery banks in the trunk, I really don't have to worry about leaving the dome light on either.

Honda rejects Mozilla...

...rather than trying to force people to buy cars... try persuading them.

A higher tax on gasoline would force us to pay the true cost (including the externalities of pollution) for burning it. Consumers could still choose to pay more and pollute more, nobody would be forced. Or they could choose to buy a cleaner car, and get rewarded for it. It'd be like pollution trading schemes that the Bush administration has suggested.

Hey, by the way, how is it going with your Insight?

The interior is very nice, and the standard features like ABS, airbags, power windows, climate control would have been hard to match in a Civic hatchback the year I bought my Insight (2000). At 74 mpg I'm doing better-than-expected on the gas savings and I'll happily pay up-front to an innovate car company in order to make it back by not paying an oil company so much. Performance is fine by me (0-60 in 10s) and I keep up with traffic on the highway.

Downsides are a little rougher feel on the road with tight suspension and 40psi tires, and poor rear visibility (careful backing out of parking spaces!).

Definitely at least test-drive one, you will be amazed.

Other notes: A hybrid (Prius, Insight, Civic Hybrid) does not qualify for an electric vehicle tax credit, but does qualify for a "clean fuel" tax deduction, for up to $2000 (you needn't itemize to take the deduction). A hybrid may or may not qualify you to single-passenger-drive in HOV lanes... in California, it does not. This is typically because hybrids (burning gasoline) are not regarded by the goverment as true "alternative fuel" vehicles.

Disclaimer: I own an Insight, have put almost 50k miles on it and overall I've averaged 74 mpg. That means I spend about half as much on gas as people driving a regular Civic. It is ULEV-rated for emissions and the Insight tops the list of the Top 10 or so most fuel-efficient cars you could ever get in the U.S. I love my car. You could say that makes me a bit biased.

I've put about 11,000 miles on my Prius in the first year of ownership. About half of them are highway miles on roadtrips; about 10% of them are short (1-2 mile) hops in town. Its lifetime fuel economy is about 48MPG. Range is about 500-600 miles. On the highway it consistently gets over 45 MPG (and I'm not gentle on the throttle -- 70-80 MPH on the level, and I floor it when I'm crossing the Rockies -- I live in Colorado). In town it gets 35-38 for the first mile or two, until the engine is warm -- then more like 48-52.

The Prius has no transmission at all -- just a second differential that shunts power between two electric motors/generators and the engine. (How it works). It's all drive-by-wire: the gas pedal is just a rheostat connected to the drive computer.

The engine has a lot of cool stuff to it: an off-center crankshaft, variable compression ratio, and (ISTR) noncircular pistons. Because of the differential it runs at more or less whatever speed the computer wants, regardless of how fast you're going.

For me (in Colorado) a pure EV was right out because of the low energy density of batteries -- it's hard to climb mountains in a pure EV. The Prius battery is used for load leveling on the engine (gas engines run best when the load is conditioned). Climbing over about 2000 feet vertical at freeway speeds drains the battery, but the computer handles it gracefully and the car just slows down to about 55 mph (on a standard 7% freeway grade). Conversely, coming down more than about 1000 feet of altitude will fill the battery to the top from regen braking, and again the computer does the Right Thing, using the engine as a conventional compression brake rather than blowing up the battery pack.

So even though the Prius isn't designed for mountain climbing it works acceptably under even strenuous climbing conditions. The interior is roomy and holds five people with no trouble. The trunk is adequate. The ride is quiet, and the gas mileage sure doesn't stink. Cornering is very good: tight turn radius and surprising traction given the high-mileage tires. Clearance is adequate but low: it's 4 inches under load, though the bottom 2 inches is just a flexible plastic air dam -- so you can get over 5" high obstacles without killing the car.

The Insight gets better gas mileage, looks cooler, and has better acceleration when you actually want it (though I imagine Prius ROM mods will come out one day that boost the acceleration -- the computer really does use conservative settings), but it's also really tiny -- the Insight is more of a "geek sports car". Toyota went out of their way to make the Prius look-and-feel like a basic (if plush) family car, and they succeeded.

All of these cars can barely get out of their own way.

The Honda Insight was rated by Car and Driver as doing 0-60 in 10.6 sec, about the same as a low-end Civic. That's fast enough for me! I never have trouble merging. Prius is slower at 13 sec. A Ford Explorer is at 8.4 sec.

What's more, these cars get better overall mileage if you haul it getting up to speed, maximizing your use of the electric motor while accelerating, minimizing the distance over which you burn a lot of gas, and maximizing the distance over which you cruise. Perhaps the hybrid drivers you saw didn't know this?

Passing on the highway mandates a downshift to 3rd (assuming you're cruising in 5th; even 4th is geared pretty high).

In any case, the Insight isn't like driving a Geo Metro.

All of these cars can barely get out of their own way.

The Honda Insight was rated by Car and Driver as doing 0-60 in 10.6 sec, about the same as a low-end Civic. That's fast enough for me! I never have trouble merging. Prius is slower at 13 sec. A Ford Explorer is at 8.4 sec.

What's more, these cars get better overall mileage if you haul it getting up to speed, maximizing your use of the electric motor while accelerating, minimizing the distance over which you burn a lot of gas, and maximizing the distance over which you cruise. Perhaps the hybrid drivers you saw didn't know this?

Passing on the highway mandates a downshift to 3rd (assuming you're cruising in 5th; even 4th is geared pretty high).

In any case, the Insight isn't like driving a Geo Metro.

EPA ratings, much like ISO ratings, reflect close-to-perfect usage conditions (flat roads, constant speed etc).

Yes of course, YMMV. However I've found that "reviews" of mileage on the hybrids are from test tracks, which don't reflect most people's everyday driving. A mileage database of 172 Insight owners finds that people get mileage within about 5% of the EPA combined rating. I personally do much better. My suspicion is that many car owners could do better if their car simply recorded/reported MPG to them.

Also, the EPA "city" test cycle does have transient accelerations/decelerations. See this example.

Your points about torque are interesting, but don't forget that a hybrid's electric motor has a flat torque curve -- the torque "peak" for the Insight is at about 2000 rpm. The idea that diesel MPG is less sensitive to driving style is another interesting one. I suspect that would be reflected in the numbers -- "city" mileage ought to be relatively close to the "highway" mileage for such a car, if that were the case.

The starter-alternator sounds suspiciously like what a hybrid does, minus the boost/recharging ability while driving.

Finally, the Insight is available in parts of the EU. I know there are owners in Germany and the UK. In fact they are available in colors that we can't get in the U.S.

EPA ratings, much like ISO ratings, reflect close-to-perfect usage conditions (flat roads, constant speed etc).

Yes of course, YMMV. However I've found that "reviews" of mileage on the hybrids are from test tracks, which don't reflect most people's everyday driving. A mileage database of 172 Insight owners finds that people get mileage within about 5% of the EPA combined rating. I personally do much better. My suspicion is that many car owners could do better if their car simply recorded/reported MPG to them.

Also, the EPA "city" test cycle does have transient accelerations/decelerations. See this example.

Your points about torque are interesting, but don't forget that a hybrid's electric motor has a flat torque curve -- the torque "peak" for the Insight is at about 2000 rpm. The idea that diesel MPG is less sensitive to driving style is another interesting one. I suspect that would be reflected in the numbers -- "city" mileage ought to be relatively close to the "highway" mileage for such a car, if that were the case.

The starter-alternator sounds suspiciously like what a hybrid does, minus the boost/recharging ability while driving.

Finally, the Insight is available in parts of the EU. I know there are owners in Germany and the UK. In fact they are available in colors that we can't get in the U.S.

The Civic Hybrid is great news, but I have to disagree with you on two points.

This proves that electric hydrids are not only available technologically-speaking, but that they are commercially viable.

Not exactly. Not yet, anyway. Recently I was looking for a new car and phoned my friendly Toyota dealer about test-driving a Prius. However, I discovered that Toyota policy was to not allow test drives and that every Prius was custom built for the customer. The reasoning was that the Prius is so much more expensive to make that it is sold for; for each car built, Toyota loses money. In essence, they are investing in the technology in hopes that it will pay off further down the road.

Now imagine what would happen if a tax break (perhaps coinciding with George W. Bush's huge breaks) were offered for electric hybrid vehicles.

Check it out. There already is one! (IANATaxConsultant)

Please read this item from Honda. It seems your wish has been granted. Now don't say Bush never did anything for you!

(Of course, giving tax credits for economical vehicles may not be enough to improve mileage, but at least it is a start.)

Who exactly are bringing electric cars to reality, eh? Who?

Electric cars are on the market. You could go out and buy one tomorrow. The government would even give you a break on your income tax for buying one. Gas/electric hybrids appear to be a bit better at this point. Look into it.
For a Honda Insight...

-Rothfuss

In case anyone's not familiar with CVT.

It does look a bit fragile (rubber band drive anyone?) but I'm assured that they work well up to several hundred HP.

Acceleration: Similar to a Civic (plain, not an SI) Top speed 115mpg (I've had mine to 105) Looks: I start more conversations getting out of this car. Range: 600 miles between tanks. So long that I forget which side the cap is on. Recharge: when I brake Price: ~20k. Insight #5129 check out insightcentral.net