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Japanese Inventor's Motor Uses 80% Less Power
novakane007 writes "A Japanese inventor named Kohei Minato has created a new kind of motor. It uses magnetism to perpetuate the motor motion. As a result the motors uses 80% less energy than a conventional motor, while still maintaing the same horsepower. "Minato assures us that he hasn't transcended the laws of physics. The force supplying the unexplained extra power out is generated by the magnetic strength of the permanent magnets embedded in the rotor. 'I'm simply harnessing one of the four fundamental forces of nature,' he says."
On top of the energy savings the motor runs cool to the touch and is significantly quieter than a tradtitionally powered fan. Sound to good to be true? Well he's already started selling the fan to a chain of convience stores in Japan. Hopefully soon the design will make it in to your home PC, allowing them to run much quieter."
"Hopefully soon the design will make it in to your home PC, allowing them to run much quieter"
What? I wasn't quite aware that computers generated their own power yet... Also, the article says the engines are quite large- probably impossible to be able to use them in a laptop setup. Plus, anyway, power supplies are quite quiet anyway, and they don't generate their own power. The problem with the noise from computers these days is unbearably loud hard drives and harsh fans.
Uh, no thanks. :)
because magnets are a computer's best friend!
...does it run on water?
503 Sig Unavailable
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As my next big idea, I think I'll put these magnet-driven motors in PCs too cool down hard drives. I mean, it's quiet and uses 80% less power than our normal fans!
read the bunni comic
Heh, This guy will soon end up in the oil company holding cell with the guy trying to make a porcelain engine that runs on water.
How long do these magnets last?
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
If only I had one of these in my car...
"9.144 volts and 192mA output. 1.8 x 0.15 x 2 = 540mW input and 9.144 x 0.192 = 1.755W out. "
So there's nothing real to be seen here. Move on.
Evil people are out to get you.
Quiet vibrators..
How long you figure before this guy gets knocked off?
Art Schools Dietzilla
I wonder if the motor can be used to generate more electricity for a given amount of input... hmm, or would it create a small current for a LOT of movement.... hmm.
meh
There are already fans that have no moving parts, but they're not used to cool PCs because of problems caused by electromagnetism and cost. I don't see how this thing would be any different as far as PCs are concerned (considering most of the noise from my fans is due to their lack of balance due to dust and manufacturing flaws).
LostCluster thinks reposted comments vi
This is perhaps one of the most amazing devices I have read about recently. If this turns out to be true it could revolutionize the amount of energy the world consumes. And if it scales electric cars may gain even more momentum. Below is the article text.
The Techno Maestro's Amazing Machine
Kohei Minato and the Japan Magnetic Fan Company
A maverick inventor's breakthrough electric motor uses permanent magnets to make power -- and has investors salivating
by John Dodd
NEW! -- See video of motors working.
When we first got the call from an excited colleague that he'd just seen the most amazing invention -- a magnetic motor that consumed almost no electricity -- we were so skeptical that we declined an invitation to go see it. If the technology was so good, we thought, how come they didn't have any customers yet?
We forgot about the invitation and the company until several months later, when our friend called again.
"OK," he said. "They've just sold 40,000 units to a major convenience store chain. Now will you see it?"
In Japan, no one pays for 40,000 convenience store cooling fans without being reasonably sure that they are going to work.
The maestro
The streets of east Shinjuku are littered with the tailings of the many small factories and workshops still located there -- hardly one's image of the headquarters of a world-class technology company. But this is where we are first greeted outside Kohei Minato's workshop by Nobue Minato, the wife of the inventor and co-director of the family firm.
The workshop itself is like a Hollywood set of an inventor's garage. Electrical machines, wires, measuring instruments and batteries are strewn everywhere. Along the diagram-covered walls are drill presses, racks of spare coils, Perspex plating and other paraphernalia. And seated in the back, head bowed in thought, is the 58-year-old techno maestro himself.
Minato is no newcomer to the limelight. In fact, he has been an entertainer for most of his life, making music and producing his daughter's singing career in the US. He posseses an oversized presence, with a booming voice and a long ponytail. In short, you can easily imagine him onstage or in a convertible cruising down the coast of California -- not hunched over a mass of wires and coils in Tokyo's cramped backstreets.
Joining us are a middle-aged banker and his entourage from Osaka and accounting and finance consultant Yukio Funai. The banker is doing a quick review for an investment, while the rest of us just want to see if Minato's magnetic motors really work. A prototype car air conditioner cooler sitting on a bench looks like it would fit into a Toyota Corolla and quickly catches our attention.
Seeing is believing
Nobue then takes us through the functions and operations of each of the machines, starting off with a simple explanation of the laws of magnetism and repulsion. She demonstrates the "Minato Wheel" by kicking a magnet-lined rotor into action with a magnetic wand.
Looking carefully at the rotor, we see that it has over 16 magnets embedded on a slant -- apparently to make Minato's machines work, the positioning and angle of the magnets is critical. After she kicks the wheel into life, it keeps spinning, proving at least that the design doesn't suffer from magnetic lockup.
She then moves us to the next device, a weighty machine connected to a tiny battery. Apparently the load on the machine is a 35kg rotor, which could easily be used in a washing machine. After she flicks the switch, the huge rotor spins at over 1,500 rpms effortlessly and silently. Meters show the power in and power out. Suddenly, a power source of 16 watt or so is driving a device that should be drawing at least 200 to 300 watts.
Nobue explains to us that this and all the other devices only use electrical power for the two electromagnetic stators at either side of each rotor, which are used to kick the rotor past its lockup point then on to the next a
Hopefully soon the design will make it in to your home PC, allowing them to run much quieter."
The noise in your pc is caused by air turbulence caused by the fan blades. Even if the motors inside your fans were 100% efficient, your computer would not be significantly quieter.
Life is too short to proofread.
Only 20% of the power of a conventional motor? The next glaringly obvious step is to figure out a way to make CPUs out of these motors. Rather than GHz, they would be rated on RPMs. Dell will market them as the "Magnetron". These next generation computers will never randomly fall from desks as the gyroscopic effect of the motorized CPU will keep it firmand will as its own fan! The Intel 9600 RPM Gyrotron TFB (Titanium Fan Blades) and the budget Intel 5400 RPM Cyclotron CPS (Cheap Plastic Shit)
BAhahaah!@!@@ I'm a frickin' genius! I'll be a trillionaire and all you slackers will still be reading
Trolling is a art,
The oil companies will hunt this man down, steal his patents, then dump his dismembered corpse into the ocean.
but does it run linux?
Magnet power cars are a threat to national security.
Cheers,
Justin
Does anyone have an account of what this motor would cost the average consumer?
question: wouldn't the magnets de-magnitize after a while? isn't that what physics would predict? good business opportunity tho. exchange the cost of electricity for the cost of buying a new motor, when the magnets stop working any physicists out there who can comment?
Hopefully soon the design will make it in to your home PC, allowing them to run much quieter.
Yup. Magnets right next to the disk drive. That's smart!
-- We live in a kakistocracy.
Is this too good to be true? For such a simple idea, it makes me wonder why hasn't anyone thought of this before. I would like to see some more information on it. I really hope this is true, as we could use these in cars, or even ceiling fans to reduce energy use.
--sig fault--
16 watts driving a 35 kg load. Thats the equivelent of a couple of C cells driving a golfcart around.
:)
IFF this can be verified (beyond the orders) and is not so prone to failure as to preclude it being used on a massive scale, we are talking about a revolution in available power reduction.
I'm impressed
what he has described is refered to as a brushless motor.
quiter.
more power efficient.
cool to the touch.
yup, brushless.
No way? Rotor, stator, brush, AC / DC ... wow, such new terms.
Who gave this clown airtime?
terpmotors.com
I think we should all tank this guy. It shows that there is still more to be invented and discovered. He deserves all our respect when we have 17,000 rpm fans that run at 7 db
As opposed to what? Oh, wait, the ones that are in there are ALREADY magnetic. How do you think normal electric motors work?
England. No wait, France. No, Germany. No,....well, any of them. They are all a bunch of lazy bums anyway.
Montreal or Cuba.
Heh, This guy will soon end up in the oil company holding cell with the guy trying to make a porcelain engine that runs on water ...down the hall from the vault containing the Skynet microchips from the future, all those Tesla inventions that the government has been sitting on, alien car motors from Roswell, turbines that run on Orgone energy, and real working cold fusion.
By the way, the porcelain engine with water? I've got one in my bathroom. It turns on when you flip a metal lever.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Northern Europe, maybe Sweden or Finland.
samurai army approaching
It'll need a big case, in any event.
Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
who woulda thunk that one of the four basic forces of nature would save us energy,
/.
too bad i can't look at the site as its already been Nuked by
"Mention of Over Unity devices in many scientific circles will draw icy skepticism."
Hmm.. Simple reason why. If you supply power to the motor using a carnot engine
and use the power from the motor to drive a carnot refrigator.
Then there will be an overall flow of heat from cold to hot..
Breaking the second law of thermodynamics..
Bullshit is word of the week.
Simon.
Search for "over unity motor" on google , you'll find a heap of these.
I always get suspicious when those sites say, "and my motor/generator at full load begins to get cold"
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
Don't you hate it when someone makes something you thought of a long time ago but did nothing about? I'm such a lazy idiot.
"Everyone who has ever taken a shower has had an idea. It's the person who gets out of the shower, dries off, and does something about it that makes a difference."
- Nolan Bushnell
Idiot, he said Eurpope, not South America.
Is Japan.com Slashdotted or have the Black Helicopters already done their work? ;)
Sounds more like a plan to format my hard disk to me!
You have to wonder, though, what this has to do with tying up women and making their eyes really big.
If guns kill people, then CmdrTaco's keyboard misspells words.
Gee...Thanks. Asscork.
I saw a similar effect on one of my brother's contraptions. Essentially, it was a roller skate wheel that had powerful magnets embedded in it. When it was spun, the magnetic field would act on a spool of wire underneath and create a charge that went into a capacitor. When tinkering with the thing, I found that one could take a magnet and place it a small ways away and that magnet would repel the other magnets on the wheel, making the thing spin longer for the same amount of energy. Later, my brother's acquaintance found a similar effect by placing the magnet on the bar that held the wheel up. I'm guessing that the process is more similar to the latter than the former.
As all of these sorts of posts are appended IANAP, so I could be wrong.
EVERYDAY IS CATURDAY
Not for nothing, but if this thing realy uses magnets of any power, it's the last thing I'd want in my computer.
Apple has never claimed not to be evil, they're just very stylish about it.
I call BS.
I Haven't read the article due to slashoting but whenever someone says they are using the stored energy in magnets to improve the efficiency of a motor I don't believe it. I've heard the same thing before for perpetual motion machines. At least this guy didn't say it was 100% efficient.
Veramocor
I see you don't know how motors work...
See...if we had Slashdot when the 100 miles per gallon engine was invented, we'd all know about it and it couldn't be hidden. Now that we all know about this it can't be turned into an urban legend...only bought and shelved.
The motor should "run much more quietly" not "much quieter". It's an adverb vs. adjective thing.
Either the proponents of this device are complete incompetents, or they are complete frauds. I'm inclined to believe the latter, as incompetents tend not to have the sales skills evident in the article
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
Sounds like the old "perpetual motion" or "high bandwidth over the powerlines" scam. That's "elusive holy grail" to you believers.
KEEP YOUR HAND ON YOUR WALLET !!!!
Using these to replace many of today electric motors. What about hibrid cars? This could greatly improve the fuel effeciancy of them. Or perhaps the electric car can be a reality. With Quick Charge Batterys the low electrical energy electric motor. Perhaps we can start using Oil as a lubercant now.
If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
Yes, there's nothing better for your CPU and magnetic storage media than putting more magnets in your PC case!
Then do not use magnetic storage! Use Paper!
Idiot, Cuba is in North America.
In my country fans run on electricity.
You see, I just pump the water up the tower and harness the energy of the gravity to drive the water down over the wheel that pump the water back up to the tower. I also connected a power generator to the wheel. Ahh, the tricks people do to bypass the laws of thermodynamics.
In Soviet russia, you don't generate power, power generates you.
Remember the laws in question only apply to closed system. Is his design a closed system? Like you said, there's conservation of energy- it can neither be created nor destroyed. It can only be converted from one form or another. It's a known fact that within a single cubic centimeter of volume resides sufficient instantaneous energy to condense out the entire rest-mass of the solar system and then some.
While I am not saying that he's tapping that energy, what is to say that he isn't?
You've got an interesting anomaly going on there with his engine- time to go find a new model for physics that jives with what we already know AND Minato's gaget.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
The Classic Magnetic Shield Engine, from The Museum of Unworkable Devices.
Why do I have the feeling that this is yet another perpetual motion machine/free energy posting?
Search google, perpetual+motion+magnet
Hey, that's my password you are typing
... nah, too easy.
I read about this in the 70s, when I was in high school.
Back then, a writer referred to it as a kind of Wankel rotary electric motor and I'm pretty sure the "inventor" was an American. Could be wrong about that.
At any rate, this Slashdot topic is late by about 30 years.
--Richard
"It uses magnetism to perpetuate the motor motion."
Are they implying Perpetual Motion?
Homer: "Listen, in this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion.
The specification is good!
That has to be the dumbest thing that I have read all day.
Humor is humor, morbid or not.
If you disagree with his joke, reply--don't mod him down.
Fuck.
Isn't a motor that "uses magnetism to perpetuate the motor motion" called an electric motor? How is that new? He made a motor that has an 80% reduction in torque so it uses 80% less power, no? You can make a motor that will run on a smallest trickle of electrical power and run really fast ... put it in a vacuum with good low-friction bearings and don't expect it to accelerate quickly.
I had an idea to build a motor that ran entirely on permanent magnets. too bad you couldn't turn it on and off though. Now i need to go build it and see if my idea would work :D
You like your new Mac more than you like me, don't you, Dave? Dave? I asked...She said Yes.
I'd like to see how this would compare to the electric engine the Dutch inventor came up with... I thought I remembered that he claimed something like 95% energy efficiency, but all I can find now claims a 60% increase in efficiency or whatnot.
~UP
Eat the Path.
Here are the patents this one from 1988 and this one from 1997. Only time will tell if they work
It's not "grammer" it's "grammAr".
;)
It's an A vs E thing.
we just /.'d japan
A Gizmodo reader wrote in, throwing some water on the magic motor. -Berylium
It's called 'quit' or 'exit' or 'close' and it's available in every browser.
of thermodynamics! You didn't finish the article, friend.
So far, so good, but...
Sounds pretty neat-o to me.
Q: What did the comedian say to the crowd?
A: If I knew, this joke would be funny.
After reading the story about Kohei Minato's super-efficient motor, reader Chris Drake wrote in with this explanation:
All Minato's power calculations appear to be wrong (apparently it's a common mistake many scientists make); you can't measure input power using a multimeter when the current drain isn't constant. You can see his workshop in his videos - all his calculations are done using common multimeters and a desktop calculator.
Minato motors use an optical sensor to "switch on" the "stator" (electromagnet) for a fraction of each RPM, so he'd need an oscilloscope and some funky math to figure out how much current the motors are really sucking up (or a stopwatch; and wait for the driving battery to go dead, then estimate based on the battery capacity).
It's still a super neat idea though - which seems to boil down to "drive motors from the outside using aligned permanent magnets and momentary pulses from the stator" instead of the traditional "sick the stator in the middle" idea.
So think we could put this in a hybrid to make the electric side use less energy, and then use an alternative fuel like A21 to make hybrids even better?
"Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
That is, there are two ends that constantly reverse polarity and the magnatism turns the motor (like a mag-lev train, but in a circle)..
I can't RTFA because it's slashdotted, so I'm probably missing the news here...
Ultra efficient motor, some dude about ten years ago in the US...guess he didn't know that synchronous AC motors already run at 80% - 90% efficiency. So how do you get something that uses "80% less energy"? ...
It's a little past April 1st, isn't it?
"With the help of magnetic propulsion, it is feasible to attach a generator to the motor and produce more electric power than was put into the device. Minato says that average efficiency on his motors is about 330 percent."
The Toyota Prius already gets 60mpg in the city. Imagine the gas mileage these cars could get if they used one of these motors.
Remember the days when Republicans were the party of fiscal responsibility?
What will come next, dogs mating with cats?!?!
Venkman: "Or you could accept the fact that this city is headed for a disaster of Biblical proportions."
Mayor: "What do you mean, Biblical?
Ray: "What he means is Old Testament, Mr. Mayor. Real wrath-of-God type stuff. Fire and brimstone coming down from the sky. Rivers and seas boiling."
Egon: "Forty years of darkness, earthquakes, volcanoes."
Winston: "The dead rising from the grave."
Venkman: "Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria."
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
didn't I read back in 1993 that we'd all be using solid state hard drives by now??? Guess that was a sure thing in the days of $600 hard drives.
Pricewatch.com tells me I can get a CompactFlash card reader for USB for under 20 USD and a 2 GB CF card for under 200 USD. There also exist adapters to plug CF cards into ATA cables. It seems that the desire for more capacity in a 3.5" desktop HD enclosure has outpaced the desire for larger persistent solid-state memory in desktop machines.
Why build some fans when you can build a nice powerplant out of these and supply the world with free energy?
Can't believe Taco fell for a free energy hoax.
I think we all know where electricity comes from thank you.
Extrordinary claims require extrordinary proof, and this is a very extrordinary claim.
electric motors are already 80-90% efficient. How could you make them use 80% less power?
love is just extroverted narcissism
Just go up North. Montréal is a good start for wealthfare. Don't dare to go in Westmount though, it is the poorest area of Montréal.
Please put a bunch of magnets on a fan and have it swing past my hard drive. Why don't you save time and effort and not install a hardrive in my machine. Or am I missing something?
The last time I heard of an engine powered by the "magnetic energy" of permanent magnets was from a guy that is now selling alkaline water. Magnets seem to attract crackpots like fire flies.
motors uses 80% less energy than a conventional motor
A conventional electric motor motor uses at most 1.6 Joules of electric energy to produce 1 Joule of motion energy (German Wikipedia). If you reduce that by 80%, you use only 0.3 Joules to produce 1 Joule... nice perpetuum mobile.
Of course, if he really DID have a mechanism that caused such a violation he'd do well to patent it; the money for the Nobel Prize for physics is chump change compared to what such an invention is worth. On the other hand, a good scam artist can separate people from their money even if the invention is a complete hoax.
(If you're looking to document the damage caused by scientific illiteracy, the people fleeced by this bozo will be good case studies.)
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
On a rotor which is fixed to a rotatable rotating shaft, a plurality of permanent magnets are disposed along the direction of rotation such that the same magnetic pole type thereof face outward. In the same way, balancers are disposed on the rotor for balancing the rotation of this rotor. Each of the permanent magnets is obliquely arranged with respect to the radial direction line of the rotor. At the outer periphery of the rotor, an electromagnet is disposed facing this rotor, with this electromagnet intermittently energized based on the rotation of the rotor. According to the magnetic rotating apparatus of the present invention, rotational energy can be efficiently obtained from permanent magnets. This is made possible by minimizing as much as possible current supplied to the electromagnets, so that only a required amount of electrical energy is supplied to the electromagnets.
Seeing bad movies only encourages them. Watch responsibly
YHBMT. (You have been meta-trolled)
poland
Those magnets are huge! They'd fry a hard drive from a mile away. Personally I'll stick with my existing fan, which uses plastic to damp the magnetic field so it won't affect ram or the power supply.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
I see what he is claiming: That he has setup opposing magnets and stators such that when the magnets are just past the center point, his device gives it a small boost (the small bit of electricity actually used by the device?) which causes the rotor to continue spinning.
So in theory (according to him), the energy being released is coming from the magnets.
If it does indeed work, then one would (I expect) see the permanent magnets inside one of his motors eventually lose their magnetism and then the device would stop working.
The proof is in the pudding, and we'd be fools to suppose that there is nothing new to be discovered.
Still, I'll endorse the idea when I can order one and try it for myself.
Natural != (nontoxic || beneficial)
Otherwise, you'd be able to hook up one of these things to drive a generator and produce more power than you consume.
So get those dreams of perpetual motion machines out of your heads, folks!
I have seen a few posts about "basic physics" and how the magnets would have to "demagnetize" to do work. But in actuality, basic physics says that magnetic forces can do no work. Why? Force = v x B (velocity of charged particle cross magnetic field) and work is the integral of Force dot dr. v cross B dot dr is 0 (because v and dr are in the same direction and the cross prod. of v and B will be perp. to v).
So the permanent magnets don't do ANY work. They can accelerate charged particles by changing their directions, and maybe they can increase efficiency by reducing friction somehow (like maglev trains). But they are not putting work into the system.
Greg
Well, as long as we're at it, why not use the device to power itself thereby providing a never-ending power source that requires a simple flick of the wrist to start and will generate as much power as you need while solving global warming and reducing CFCs in the upper atmosphere.
While it would be really cool if this worked, I don't see how it can be possible. There's got to be some trick somewhere, gullible businesses aside. I won't believe it until I have one of my own that I use to drive my car off of no battery at all.
--Bennett Prescott
Former Lord Of Packets
Same power, but 80% less electricity?
It's a scam. A perpetual motion machine, as then you could hook one of these motors up to a generator, run it off of 25% of the current from the generator, and use the other 75% for whatever you wanted.
The Toyota Prius already gets 60mpg in the city. Imagine the gas mileage these cars could get if they used one of these motor
If I calculated correctly, not a Toyota Prius outfitted with one of these motors would excrete 1.3 litres of gasoline every 20 miles. (it is beyond a matter of getting "great gas mileage": the car would put out more gasoline than it takes in).
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
I tried posting this story like 2 weeks ago.
What happens with two magnets repelling each other? Do they eventually wear out? No? If you levitate one on top of the other, the magnets are doing work in the form of a repulsion of the magnet on top (It's tendency will be to fall per gravity's attraction)- they're doing work at a rate sufficient to hold the magnet airborne a given distance.
Where does the energy come from to levitate the magnets? The magnets? Nope. They'll keep on going until you disturb the order present in the magnets by way of a more intense magnetic field, heating up the material past it's curie point, or giving it a sudden, violent impact. Minato's device is little different from the levitating magnets in what is going on.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Forget my PC fan, I want this in my car!
I don't need Netcraft to prove that Bigfoot no longer exists: Bigfoot is dead.
He "invented" an application for exisiting technology, he's not claiming to have invented a new field of electronics, nitwit...
... on April 5
The magnets aren't activated until the hard drive is spinning. Once its up to speed, it's going so fast that there isn't time for the magnet to pull the bits off the hard drive before they've flown by.
You have to be careful when building the hardware interlock to shutdown the magnet before the platters spin down.
Finally, someone showing the math that proves this was bogus. My thought exactly, although I didn't have it in Joules. But I certainly knew conventional motors were better than 20% efficent, which makes this guys claim completely bigus. The parent should be modded up.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
I worked as a patent consultant briefly and in a short time saw a couple of perpetual motion schemes. The most elaborate was proposed by a bank security guard and involved a hydraulic pump and motor combined with an electric motor and generator.
I explained that energy in a system worked like a bank account (bank guard -remember?) You put energy in and you can take it back out, but you can't get quite as much back out as you put in because there was a service charge in the form of friction. He begrudgingly understood. I complemented him on his nice drawings.
"In this house we obey the law of thermodymanics" - Homer Simpson
"Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
Amsterdam --- the place to be for wealthfare AND partying.
Don't forget to see the Rembrant museum, say hello to the "Ronde de nuit" while you are there.
If this is news now, why wasn't it news when I submitted it like 3 weeks ago?
Regardless, what the original poster doesn't mention is that this device is a perpetual motion machine. That makes the whole thing somewhat doubtful.
Minato has done demonstrations where he hooks up one of his motors to a generator, and the power output exceeds the input.
We should all be very skeptical of anyone who claims to have created a device which violates a very basic tenet of modern physics. . .
Sorry for the obvious troll bait. But comeon people... First off, PCs have TONS of electromagnets in them. Ever put a screwdriver up to the small speaker often found in cases? It sticks!!!111oneone. WTF do you think all of the motors in the computer are powered by?
Not to mention it's beyond fakery, and you can't get out more power than you put in.
Holy crap, this is the most craptastic crap-fest I've ever seen on Slashdot.
-Jesse
Nothing says "unprofessional job" like wrinkles in your duct tape.
I'm not engineer so I ask those of you thiat are, would the same principle be applicable to generating power? ie: can this be used to make hydro plants (or any other power plants) produce more power thus eliminating - or at least delaying - the need for ever more new plants, or is this a one way street?
This is Japan: Quiet hello kitty vibrators!
I looked inside a power supply once and there's a huge coil in there. Once current is run through it creates a magnetic field powerful enough to run the entire computer.
Regular electric motors are well known very being very efficient, upwards of 95%.
Which means if you put 100 watts of electicity into your motor, you're going to get upwards of 95 watts of mechanical power out of it.
You can't get more than 100 watts of mechanical power out of it, since you are creating energy out of nothing, and that doesn't happen.
So if this motor uses 80% less power (ie, 20 watts) to generate the same 95 watts of mechanical power, it is impossible.
Unless there is a Mr. Fusion connected to the flux capacitor...
Seriously, WTF? You CANNOT get more energy out of a closed loop system than you put in. EVER! If someone ever managed to do so it would open a rift in our dimension or something equally fucked up. Anyone who buys into this is a fucking crackhead and needs to go back to school. Seriously. WTF is this doing on slashdot? If I claim to make an electric bicycle with a wheel driven generator that recharges the batteries faster than they are drained can I get on slashdot too?
This really brings my opinion of slashdot down, this is enquirer level shit.
Sound to me like we can see hybrid car can double mileage. Or better efficient refrigerator/vacum cleaner. Hell, if this is real, virtually anything that has electric motor can double it efficiency.
You can get them at Radio Shack.
They are on the same shelf as the Flux Capacitors.
"I'm just here to regulate funkiness."
He's not using it in the same mode of operation that we typically do with a motor. He and several others have come up with some designs that have amazing modes of operation and hard to believe efficiencies- but there's been numerous reproductions of the devices in question and some fairly extensive testing to back the work up.
It remains to be seen if these motors are as claimed, but if they hit the market and show up good, it's time to re-think what we call the "laws" of Physics because they don't account for this.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Why the fuck is this crackpot on slashdot?
The claim that the extra energy is coming 'from permanent magnets' is risible. It's like claiming to extract energy from the gravitational field of the earth.
MAYBE he has a very efficient motor (though I haven't seen any independant evaluation of that claim). But he certainly doesn't understand how it works, and his claim that he can extract more energy from a motor-generator configuration than he put in is obvious fraud.
I'm not sure what's worse, that the journalist who wrote the article is so credulous, or that the people here (who should damn well know better) are.
That means I have to spend tonight removing them, lest they damage my important data!
--
the strongest word is still the word "free"
I did look. No, they wouldn't.
If big fields were gonna kill your hard drive, the massive one from the transformer coil in your PSU would probably be the first to do it. Yet somehow, we continue to be able to use PCs stuffed to the brim with magnetic motors, speakers, and transformer coils, all without erasing our hard drives.
The parent was modded "Funny" not "Informative", I think he was only joking.
That's what I read on the internet anyway, and if it's on the internet then it must be true. http://www.alternativescience.com/perpetual_motion .htm
I'm a "fan" of quieter PCs!
bad? trust me, I had worse...
CVS
free ipod and free gmail!
Can you prove that there aren't chocolate cakes in orbit around Saturn?
No?
Well I guess that means that there are!
Be real. Anybody who's done some basic maths knows that to prove something you need to prove that it ALWAYS works. As to prove something wrong you only need to prove it ONCE.
Same thing for the burden of proof here.
Imagine a world where everybody would be guilty else they prooved innocent. Things don't work that way thank god! Err wait...
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity
Since skin isn't magnetic, you GOON!
What the heck people.. You are supposed to be nerds and most of you are talking about this as it would actually be remotely possible. If you have a piece of metal near a magnet, and harness the released potential energy as the metal piece moves closer to the magnet, then how would you ever get that metal piece away from the magnet without using exactly as much energy as you got out in the reciprocal process?
PE = Distance * Force
you'll never get any extra energy out of this equation.. hence it is an equation! and as far as I know there is no such thing as magic equations are there?
There is a special type of electric motor called a "brushless" motor which doesn't use alternating current. Look it up.
I admit I am not a physist, my major is history,and I keep up on as much Tech stuff as I can just for fun but I didn't cath anything in the article about those magic magnets of his being non-static.
The problem with that is if you are not somehow alternating those magnets you are not going to get an energy increase. I donot care how much you "slant" them. They will still provide as much drag as then do energy.
That means magnetic lockup. I may be low in physics theory but I have played with magnets before.
There is no situation you can not make worse. -Jim Lovell
From www.uspto.gov (the United States Patent Office) Patent 1 http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PT O2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/search-adv.htm&r=1&f=G &l=50&d=PTXT&p=1&p=1&S1=(kohei.INZZ.+AND+minato.IN ZZ.)&OS=in/kohei+and+in/minato&RS=(IN/kohei+AND+IN /minato)
Patent 2
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PT O2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/search-adv.htm&r=2&f=G &l=50&d=PTXT&p=1&p=1&S1=(kohei.INZZ.+AND+minato.IN ZZ.)&OS=in/kohei+and+in/minato&RS=(IN/kohei+AND+IN /minato)
I just scanned them, but it looks like the same guy. So the patents do exist...
On another note, imagine the energy savings if these things were really installed in computers everywhere? It's a small savings for one fan, but multiplied by the number of computers in the whole US/world, that's a big savings!
http://users.skynet.be/kurtgode/minato_invention_2 004.pdf
Q: What did the comedian say to the crowd?
A: If I knew, this joke would be funny.
I found This post which goes deeper into the discussion of the physics behind this machine which is WAY over my head. Can any of you slashdot electrical engineering gurus make sense out of it?
i want an inventor that uses 80% less crack
Notice that he blames both 9/11 and Enron for not wanting to deal with large companies. Maybe smaller companies are easier to fool and less likely to be able to expose him?
This sounds like a scam to me. I hope it isn't, but it sounds like one.
Lasers Controlled Games!
Anyone find a reference to the supposed patent? A quick search of the USPTO site with Inventor=Minato gives 300-odd entries of nothing useful.
#include "humorous_pop_culture_reference.h"
...I just use all those wonderful microwaves floating around from the massive Cell-Phone usage.
Magnets are so old school.
Less spam for a few hours! :\
"magnets + mechanical motion = generator"
I'm sorry, but electricity is a big part of the equation bub. Get a brain moran!
New's at 10. President Bush meet a japanese inventor and hopes the technology will be available in the states and free america from the grip of OPEC oil.
(Ianal.)
Just waiting for the *next* HD to die...then I can find out just how strong the magnets are!
Shouldn't have just chucked out the last batch (sigh...around 4+) of IBM DeathStars that died on me.
Darn japanese inventors take all the credit. Well, I'm dating a japanese woman - and I have my super wind-powered car that is going through the patent office right now! Since I'm nice, I'll give you a sneak preview of it!
First, there is a mini-windmill that is attached to the hood of your car.
Then a gear steps the RPM up, which powers a fan in the back of your car to push it!
I swear, once you get up to 30 mph, you don't need anymore gas! It's all about aerodynamics, I swear!
Want to buy some dehydrated water? Or how 'bout my nifty self charging electric bicycle?
Go back to school, seriously.
I had a similar problem with a cheap VA meter (designed to run at 50Hz) when I made a HF transformer. At the low voltage side it measured 5V 1A, at the high voltage side it was ~500V, 100mA. I was young at the time and got all excited until common sense brought me down to earth and I tried lowering the frequency from 1kHz.
As most meters are designed for a 50Hz sine wave, his pulsed system could very easily cause confusion.
The acid test would be to run a conventional motor and the new motor from a fixed quantity of joules, e.g. a battery.
-Yarn - Rio Karma: Excellent
My computer works without a "PSU". It's got a motherboard, a power supply, a hard drive, a cpu and some ram and interface connectors. And a case.
I don't know what you're doing with a huge magnetic generator, but I suggest you run fcsk.
From www.uspto.gov (the United States Patent Office)
Patent 1
Patent 2
I just scanned them, but it looks like the same guy. So the patents do exist...
On another note, imagine the energy savings if these things were really installed in computers everywhere? It's a small savings for one fan, but multiplied by the number of computers in the whole US/world, that's a big savings!
OK, the guy claims to have invented something that will produce 3.3 watts of energy for every watt put into it.
Well, what would you do if you invented it?
Bzzzzt, wrong answer. The right answer is sell 40,000 fans to a Japanese convenience store. ROTFL.
Sigh. In the age of Google, can't people even bother to look up the history of all these "over unity" machines...
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
...I knew you could.
/.'ed) "And you could connect a generator to one of these motors and get more power out than you put in". At that point it was clear that I didn't need to read further...
Someone sent me this link a few weeks back and I read through the article. I had my doubts, but then I read the line that said something like (sorry, I'm paraphasing, as the site seems to be
Turns out there's already been a lengthy discussion of this article in the context of motors for RC aircraft...I hate to slashdot my favorite website, but 's the thread [rcgroups.com] ...Skip to the end if you want to hear all the wonderful reasons it sounds like crap.
10 pounds!! I can lift WAY MORE than that!
- Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
Unfortunately for Mary Jo Kopechne, he didn't have one of these.
When I was 14, on the very first day of my high school physics class, lesson number one was "there is no such thing as a free lunch." In other words, since that day I've known how to recognize a perpetual motion scam from a mile away. I assume the quality if my education is no different than that of most other people.
If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
While the device in question must of course prove itself to not be bogus, there is some precedent for using a "special arrangement of magnets" to increase efficiency. LLNL had a demonstration maglev train that would glide quite nicely for a long distance after you pushed it to a certain speed.
The following posts provide some additional information:
http://www.llnl.gov/str/Post.html
http://www.alienbaby.com/levitron.html
I could see this principle applied to a package like an electric motor. Indeed, the article describes that the applied energy is used to "kick" the rotor (sorry, my knowledge of such motors is limited, so please pardon my misuse of terminology) into a position in which the array can then finish guiding it around.
In essence, there's nothing really fishy about it. Its just being really, really clever in harnessing the underlying principles. Again, though, the design remains to be proven, both as workable and truly economical.
I always get the shakes before a drop.
From reading the comments about violations of conservation of energy, it looks like Kohei Minato could be the next Alex Chiu.
US Patent 4,751,486
US Patent 5,594,289
Note that I'm not speaking for or against his claims, but if you want to see how it works, there you go.
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
I was about to post something about that until I saw your insightful post. No mod points, so, er, if you have 'em --
What does Grammer have to do with anything?
quieter adv. Colloq. More quietly.
The fact that your printed dictionary lacks this colloquial definition doesn't imply that the dictionaries internalized by native speakers of English also lack it.
I though you were supposed to be nerds.
The sad part is, they are nerds. They have all the negative stereotypes, but none of the brains.
And everyone knows that Space Pixies are what transfer the heat from chips to their sinks. Duh!
This sentence pretty much tells you this is another perpetual motion hoax:
With the help of magnetic propulsion, it is feasible to attach a generator to the motor and produce more electric power than was put into the device. Minato says that average efficiency on his motors is about 330 percent.
Wooo-Hooo we can replace coal, oil and nuclear by just string these things together like Christmas tree bulbs!
The other clue that this is a scam is the entourage of bankers and investors to the demos, not physicists and engineers.
Joining us are a middle-aged banker and his entourage from Osaka and accounting and finance consultant Yukio Funai. The banker is doing a quick review for an investment, while the rest of us just want to see if Minato's magnetic motors really work. A prototype car air conditioner cooler sitting on a bench looks like it would fit into a Toyota Corolla and quickly catches our attention
Letter To Iran
subject says it all...
-- What do you need?
-- Gnus. Lots of Gnus.
Unfortunately for Mary Jo Kopechne, he didn't have one of these.
He probably would have just had to throw her overboard to get the same result.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Except for one thing: placing magnets like that end to end causes them to demagnetize after continued exposure. If something like that actually existed it would be flat ferromagnetic inside a week.
Nice try!
This just sounds like a rip off of the Adams motor/generator, yet not as efficient. Adams motor/gen boast 150-300% efficiency. Produces more electricity than it consumes... Sounds too good to be true? Do a internet search. You'll find the plans and the math behind this.
Didn't that trip your "kook" meter? You can't pull power out of the same magnet forever. The "force" it produces won't produce any more output. If it did we would have perpetual motion machines and free electricity.
Lutec is another person involved in the Overunity engine quest.
Disclaimer: I follow this stuff off and on because it's almost as good as reading sci-fi novels.
Magnets, to many people, can explain anything, becuase they do not understand them properly. Just as you can not construct a perpetual motion device using magnets, however, you cannot raise efficiency using magnets as an energy source. Magnets can only raise efficiency by acting as frictionless bearings, but that is not the case for these motors. This is blatant fraud, and I cannot believe these people fell for it.
Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
I have a question.... How (in)efficient is it to connect two DC motors directly together. Let's say you have apply 100mW 9V to one motor (rated accordingly) with the shaft directly connected to an identical motor. What will be the output on the second motor? What percentage of loss will there be? If this guy is actually harnessing the power of a magnet to turn the fans he builds... Why can't this same technology be applied to generators? If his theory is correct that he is actually taking energy from the earth (non electro-) magnet, and he actually gets 80% of the energy in this way... Let's see...
Let's assume that the motor-to-motor hookup i described provides 16% of the original power; giving the motor a 40% loss of power when turning electricity into rotation and another 40% loss when translating rotation back to electricity (100 *.4*.4=16) (THIS IS ENTIRELY A GUESS. I can't find any rating on how much power loss is involved).
Okay so let's say I hook up two of this guys motors together in the same way. According to the article it takes 80% less wattage (1/5th of normally required amount of power) to provide the same power... So let's say I apply 100mW again. I'm really getting the effect of applying 500mW to a conventional motor. Let's assume the same loss rate in conversion to force and back (40% each time) except now I have 500*.4=200mW of rotational force. Let's do this again for the generator... but since it's 5 times as efficient I have 200mW*5*.4=400mW. So my end effect would be 100mW into 400mW. I don't for a second think this is possible, but assuming my 40% guess for loss in power with DC motors and Generators isn't way off base then it's exactly what this guy is trying to tell us...
I can count to 1023 on my hands. Ask me about #132.
You can get out more than you put in. Maybe this new motor works like a savings account. (Yeah, I know, the "extra" comes from somewhere else!)
Something with extremely high permeability that soaks all the force lines into itself. Commonly called Mu Metal, it's a nickle-iron alloy with some copper and molybdenum in the mix. It's magnetically "soft" meaning it the force lines like/want to be in the metal and stay there. Mu metal will stop fields just short of .1 Tesla in strength dead in their tracks.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
Violating thermodynamics would be an efficiency of infinity (power usage 0). The technical explanation is quite sound - the static magnets repulse the fan blades as they normally would, and the electric magnets combined with the momentum in the blades push the blades past the spots of repulsion that would reverse their course.
The trick is that the fan has to suck more power to start - changing the fan blade inertia - once the blades are in motion, inertia is on your side.
This is reposted from Dan's Data
http://www.dansdata.com/danletters097.htm
Shock news: journalists gullible!
I was giving this magnetic motor (reached via Gizmodo) the skeptical benefit of the doubt, until I got to the "more power out than in" claim. And the fact that the Japan Patent Office wasn't willing to grant a patent until the US PTO did (given some of the goofy patents awarded in the US, that's not a good sign).
However, it may be possible this guy genuinely has a more efficient motor, and the super-unity power claim is the result of measurement/calculation confusion (simple multiplication of peak values vs. the area under the curve). I could believe the reporter might make this mistake; the fact that the inventor goes along with it is not encouraging.
Joe
Answer:
I only read the Gizmodo precis about that when it was mentioned there the other day, and assumed that when they said it used 20% of the power of a conventional motor they just had the wrong end of the stick, and should have said it was 20% more efficient than some existing not-too-efficient maintenance free long service motor design, or something. Since motors with better than 85% efficiency are common already, a motor that draws a fifth as much power to do the same work will, as you say, be one of those fabled "over-unity devices", a.k.a. perpetual motion machines.
On reading the actual article, it seems clear to me (and others...) that this is just another fraudulent "magnetic motor", with the usual explanation that the mystic energy of permanent magnets is somehow making up the shortfall (some such motors are supposed to slowly use up their magnets, the lost mass being somehow converted to energy to keep the thing running).
If this guy actually has orders for his products, from people assuming they do what this article says they do, he will soon end up fleeing angry buyers. I suspect the orders haven't actually been placed, though (or are conditional on working products being delivered, with no payment having yet been made...), since these sorts of scammers are usually in it to fleece small investors, who're the only people who believe their claims. No company with an engineering department will buy this line of bull; it's been tried far too many times before.
A reader kindly found what looks to be the appropriate patent for me. The patent clearly states that it's for a a way in which "rotational energy can be efficiently obtained from permanent magnets", which I would have thought would have triggered the USPTO's perpetual-motion-device radar, but apparently not. Maybe they're getting sloppy about more than software patents these days.
It should be noted that, generally speaking, patent offices do not require proof that a device works in order to grant a patent. They often make exceptions in the case of perpetual motion machines, but if you disguise your over-unity patent application as an ultra-high-efficiency motor or something (which Minato has pretty much done in his US patent application), your local patent office would probably be happy to grant you a patent.
As I've observed on previous occasions, (one involving another magic magnetic motor...) the patent office's job is to sell you legal protection for your idea, not to guarantee that the idea is worth protecting.
Evidence:
From what they said about the energy transfer of the system, it sounds to me like a bit of handwaving about transient and steady-state operation. Seems like he used permanent magnets to provide a sort of momentum to the motor which must be overcome at startup, but which will keep the sucker turning on seemingly very little energy. The same effect could be achieved by simply adding a great deal of mass to the system. As long as the journalists aren't paying attention during the transient phase (and when do they ever) it would seem like magic once it finally gets up to speed.
Sort of like how if you carry a big heavy rock to the top of the hill, you can then input a small amount of energy to push it over and watch the huge kinetic energy output. But you have to carry it up first.
I'm guessing this was a troll, but i'm going to pretend it isn't and answer it anyway.
The PSU, my misguided friend, is the Power Supply Unit. The "Power Supply" you referred to. I can assure you that you're using one, unless you have replaced it with a series of very large 12v and 5v batteries carefully wired into the rails.
Now, for the 8th-grade lesson you seem to have missed-- your power supply works using a large transformer to convert the voltage coming out of the wall into the 12v and 5v voltages required by your PC. How does a transformer work? at its simplest, it's a pair of coils of wire placed next to eachother. The coils are magnetically coupled-- the first coil gets the power from the wall and generates a HUGE magnetic field. The second coil does what coils do when placed in big magnetic fields-- it makes electrical current. The number of turns of wire on each coil determine the ratio of the input to output voltages.
That's how things worked in the 1980s. Now, today's power supplies aren't that simple. Computer power supplies today are switching power supplies, and use a frequency step-up before feeding into the transformers to reduce the size of the transformer needed. But you will note, as this nice article says and clearly shows in pictures, there are still multiple transformers in a switching power supply. And yes, the way they work is by shunting all the power you're using through a big ol' magnetic field between two coils with different numbers of turns of wire.
So, yes, your power supply is producing a gigantic magnetic field. One large enough to transfer all the hundreds of watts your PC needs through the air as a magnetic field.
Anyone who claims to get more energy out of a device than he put into it should, IMHO, be forced to grind ;-).
the Laws of Thermodynamics into a 70 feet high marble slab. Black marble, that is (for style
Not bloody likely... the effiency of our current electric motors would have to be somewhere below 20% to have enough room for 80% less energy to be used. As our current motors are on the order of 85%-90% efficient as they are, where is the 80% going to come from? Idiots!
Now the batteries in my wife's vibrator will last 5 times longer. I won't have to change them as often and I can get some real work done.
Patent #5,594,289 and Patent #4,751,486 Both for Magnetic Rotating Apparatus.
Maybe you'd have more luck than me, but I just ran a thorough search at US Patent and Trademark Office and found not even a patent, let alone the two that Mr. Kohei Minato claims to have.
><));>
Thank you. I feel somewhat sheepish. Baaa.
Not that I know, but is it cheaper to harvest large permanent magnets than to pay for the electricity to run a more, um, standard motor? If it is, maybe this guy is going somewhere even if the juice in the permanent magnets runs out. What is the TCO?
This is a job for the Yankee Group!
Q: What did the comedian say to the crowd?
A: If I knew, this joke would be funny.
would excrete 1.3 litres of gasoline every 20 miles
oops...sorry for mixing standard with Metric. I'll take the document icon for this and drag it across my Windows 98 desktop and drop it in the trash can.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
TECHNOLOGY
The Techno Maestro's Amazing Machine
Kohei Minato and the Japan Magnetic Fan Company
A maverick inventor's breakthrough electric motor uses permanent magnets to make power -- and has investors salivating
by John Dodd
NEW! -- See video of motors working.
When we first got the call from an excited colleague that he'd just seen the most amazing invention -- a magnetic motor that consumed almost no electricity -- we were so skeptical that we declined an invitation to go see it. If the technology was so good, we thought, how come they didn't have any customers yet?
We forgot about the invitation and the company until several months later, when our friend called again.
"OK," he said. "They've just sold 40,000 units to a major convenience store chain. Now will you see it?"
In Japan, no one pays for 40,000 convenience store cooling fans without being reasonably sure that they are going to work.
The maestro
The streets of east Shinjuku are littered with the tailings of the many small factories and workshops still located there -- hardly one's image of the headquarters of a world-class technology company. But this is where we are first greeted outside Kohei Minato's workshop by Nobue Minato, the wife of the inventor and co-director of the family firm.
The workshop itself is like a Hollywood set of an inventor's garage. Electrical machines, wires, measuring instruments and batteries are strewn everywhere. Along the diagram-covered walls are drill presses, racks of spare coils, Perspex plating and other paraphernalia. And seated in the back, head bowed in thought, is the 58-year-old techno maestro himself.
Minato is no newcomer to the limelight. In fact, he has been an entertainer for most of his life, making music and producing his daughter's singing career in the US. He posseses an oversized presence, with a booming voice and a long ponytail. In short, you can easily imagine him onstage or in a convertible cruising down the coast of California -- not hunched over a mass of wires and coils in Tokyo's cramped backstreets.
Joining us are a middle-aged banker and his entourage from Osaka and accounting and finance consultant Yukio Funai. The banker is doing a quick review for an investment, while the rest of us just want to see if Minato's magnetic motors really work. A prototype car air conditioner cooler sitting on a bench looks like it would fit into a Toyota Corolla and quickly catches our attention.
Seeing is believing
Nobue then takes us through the functions and operations of each of the machines, starting off with a simple explanation of the laws of magnetism and repulsion. She demonstrates the "Minato Wheel" by kicking a magnet-lined rotor into action with a magnetic wand.
Looking carefully at the rotor, we see that it has over 16 magnets embedded on a slant -- apparently to make Minato's machines work, the positioning and angle of the magnets is critical. After she kicks the wheel into life, it keeps spinning, proving at least that the design doesn't suffer from magnetic lockup.
She then moves us to the next device, a weighty machine connected to a tiny battery. Apparently the load on the machine is a 35kg rotor, which could easily be used in a washing machine. After she flicks the switch, the huge rotor spins at over 1,500 rpms effortlessly and silently. Meters show the power in and power out. Suddenly, a power source of 16 watt or so is driving a device that should be drawing at least 200 to 300 watts.
Nobue explains to us that this and all the other devices only use electrical power for the two electromagnetic stators at either side of each rotor, which are used to kick the rotor past its lockup point then on to the next arc of magnets. Apparently the angle and spacing of the magnets is such that once the rotor is moving, repulsion between the stators and the rotor poles keeps the rotor moving smoothly in a counterclockwise direction. Either way, it's impressive.
hehe, what are you using right now. That guy probably has one of them old loud ones. I can see where it came to mind right off.
http://quasiturbine.promci.qc.ca/QTIndex.html
6E8C 8721 B3D9 5269 5A9B 1122 00C3 C03D 99A7 1CFC
Hopefully soon the design will make it in to your home PC, allowing them to run much quieter."
Who cares about my PC fan, I want this in my hybrid/electric car. This kind of advance is what we need so I can get 50 mpg and still have enough power to be fun to drive
Don't be fooled. Kohei Minato is really Carl Tilley in a clever Japanese disguise.
All Minato's power calculations appear to be wrong (apparently it's a common mistake many scientists make); you can't measure input power using a multimeter when the current drain isn't constant. You can see his workshop in his videos - all his calculations are done using common multimeters and a desktop calculator.
Minato motors use an optical sensor to "switch on" the "stator" (electromagnet) for a fraction of each RPM, so he'd need an oscilloscope and some funky math to figure out how much current the motors are really sucking up (or a stopwatch; and wait for the driving battery to go dead, then estimate based on the battery capacity).
It's still a super neat idea though - which seems to boil down to "drive motors from the outside using aligned permanent magnets and momentary pulses from the stator" instead of the traditional "sick the stator in the middle" idea.
{ Pillar candles great for when the power fails and you cant see the keyboard..
In close proximity to each other their magnetic fields cancel each other out and no light is generated.
In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics. ;-)
Get mentioned on cnn.com. Get sold to (or destroyed by) major motor companies. Aren't sold as "convenience store fans" as their first application.
This thing might work as a perpetual motion machine, except that it would just keep spinning faster and faster.
"This perpetual motion machine just keeps getting faster and faster... Lisa, in this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!" -Homer Simpson
Seriously, the only thing this article show is how easy it is to dupe people and how poor science education is today. If you know ANYTHING about physics, you should be able to know this article is BS immediately.
Life is too short to proofread.
The permanent magnet motors in your hard drive have a DC magnetic field, called B0 (B-Zero). It's strong, but it's not changing.
To change data on magnetic media, a DC field isn't going to do it. You need to get the particles moving first, using an AC magnetic field at a bias frequency. That allows the particles to go into a state where they can be set by the record signal, another AC signal which has the actual signal to be recorded. In the analog world, a bias frequency might be, say, 40KHz, that gets the particles moving, and then the signal which is your audio information, which sets the particles in place. A DC field won't change much without a biasing signal going on.
Moderation is a broken until we can moderate idiot stories like this out of existence.
One comment comes to mind from the 70's show after reading this tripe.
"Dumbass"
Ironically, by the time he'd won patents in 47 countries, the Japanese patent office turned him down on the grounds that "[the invention] couldn' t possibly work" and that somehow he was fabricating the claims.
But a few months later they were forced to recant their decision after the US patent office recognized his invention and gave him the first of two patents. As Minato notes: "How typical of Japan's small-minded bureaucrats that they needed the leadership of the US to accept that my invention was genuine."
He's claiming that the current rubberstamp bureaucracy has proven his ability to violate the laws of physics? If he had some respected independent lab test it, I might start to listen, but for now, his magnets are no more special that these magnets of immortality, which will fail when I roll > 3 on attack with my "Vorpal Blade of Truth"...
Just because I doubt myself does not mean I find your position compelling.
The guy behind this psuedo-motor "has been an entertainer for most of his life, making music and producing his daughter's singing career in the US." Not a good sign.
"Japan's second largest convenience store chain" is Lawson, Inc. You might ask them if they really bought those motors.
"Extracting the energy from magnets" is an old idea from the "over unity" bozos. It never works. If it did, it would quickly demagnetize the magnets. There's not that much energy in a permanent magnet. It's doesn't take much energy to magnetize one, after all. Here, buy a magnetizer.
Multiplying average current and average voltage to get average wattage is another classic boner. You have to integrate the product of the instantaneous values, which requires a true wattmeter or a scope. For anything but DC, the results are off, and for wierd waveforms, it's way off. In particular, if you have something like a tank circuit, where peak voltage occurs with minimum current, and vice versa, the power is far lower than a simple product would indicated. The "piezo" over-unity nuts went down that dead end about a decade ago.
No combination of energy-losing operations is ever going to result in an energy gain. Didn't anybody here go to engineering school?
Slashdot insults Einstein's memory by regularly posting junk science articles with his image attached. But of course, they don't actually write the articles .. or submit them .. or proofread them .. or fact check them ..
What do they draw a paycheck for again?
I've finally had it: until slashdot gets article moderation, I am not coming back.
I don't know enough physics to tell, but it looks like this guy might be using a version of the "classic magnetic shield engine" near the bottom of the Museum of Unworkable Devices.
What is sounds like is he's claiming to take electro-magnetic energy , turn it into kinetic energy, and then convert it back into even more electro-magnetic energy. I'm no physicist but I was under the impression that can't be possible since energy is inheritly lost in the conversion process.
"Young lady, in this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics"
...because I have to say:
Jane! Jane! Stop this crazy thing!
Do you even KNOW how the current models came about?
Do you even KNOW if this stuff's undocumented?
Do you even KNOW if it's unreviewed?
Do you even KNOW if it's unrepeated?
"Junk science" is faulty scientific data and analysis used to used to further a special agenda.
If you've never reviewed the data, how do you know it's junk science?
If you've never attempted to reproduce it, how do you know it's junk science?
You Don't.
Bet you didn't know that the CFC (Freon) research is pretty much junk science- but everyone, probably even you, accepted it as fact. No review, no repeatability or data to truly back up a far-fetched theory (Mother nature dumps more chlorine into the upper atmosphere daily than man ever did with CFC's...).
People ARE documenting this. People are reviewing the work in question. And, people HAVE repeated it and other devices.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
... for running this article. I submitted it unfortunately right before april fool's day to my chagrin, I FORGOT what was gonna happen.
This motor could by itself make the electric car practical, because the stumbling block has been the batteries. Now, they will be quite sufficient for extended driving. Think of all the savings we can get from everything like washing machines to compressors for HVAC and yada yada. I think it's dang nifty. If it works out as well as the claims suggest, he should get a ton of prizes and national awards, etc, and be made a billionaire, the savings potential in thousands of products is so great across the planet.
They're making 40,000 fans.. write them an e-mail asking the name brand and the store. Have Japanese friend mail it to you.. rip fan apart and test motor.
If it's bullshit.. then you'll know and you can get a nice slashback link.. and if it works, you get to be Alpha geek for the week.
IANAP or I would try this myself.
due the to /. effect...
If you attempt to hook these up into a feedback loop:
1) Counter-EMF would cause the fixed parts (magnets) or the bearings to heat up as the system accelerated and become distorted or destroyed.
2) The system would ramp up until internal friction (air, bearings) was equal to the energy amplification, and then it would slow down as the magnets rapidly demagnitzied.
3) Wires would melt, arcing would result. (Possibly could happen in either case)
Could be the basis of a starter motor or something though.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
i don't know whether this guy is a crackpot or not, but it would theoretically be possibly to create a motor that productes more electricity that you put in if you use "permanent" magnets...problem is that this would eventually demagnatizing your so called "permanent" magnets, because that is where it gets its extra energy.
it would technically just be another kind of battery. it definately would not run forever.
Imagine a pendulom, swinging, with two magnets in each side, attracting it... how long would it take for it to stop?
:)
Now that's interesting
There are a variety of different types of electric motors, not all appropriate for electric cars. Being that this motor uses magents, my question would be what kind of starting power or torque does this motor have.
demagnetizing the permanent magnet, milking it like a charged inductor. Perhaps by melting it due to internal heating rapidly changing EM fields. (that tends to demagntize stuff... ;-P )
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
Ok, all you slashdot people that are claiming "stored energy in magnets", or that this thing doesn't violate thermodynamics should be ashamed of yourself. You people may know computers, but you know jack squat about physics.
AccountKiller
It's often tricky figuring out where open mindeness leaves off, and naivete and gullibility begin. This particular motor, however, is an easy call.
"and that caroline let frank feel her up in assembly"
Man, you had to do that in assembly? I would think a compiled language would be easier, but still not as easy as just using your hands and the more traditional analog interface.
FWIW, YMMV, TWAGOS (Take with a grain of salt), DYOM (Do your own math), etc...
I'm thinking about it, therefore I might be.
I took apart an old dead harddrive for fun several years ago and found a pair of the magnets mentioned. (They weigh maybe an ounce each [estimate - I may be way off]). They're about an inch long(average, they're sort of cresent shaped) and half an inch wide.
Some things I noted:
- I have yet to find *anyone* capable of pulling them apart without twisting them (inability to get a good grip, they're pretty flat, may be a factor)
- My mom borrowed them to hang a wreath to her front door. They supported it, one stuck to each side of the glass.
- Placing one on my fingers, it will attract and hold the other to the opposite side of my fingers, against gravity (doesn't hurt). If I wave my hand hard enough to slightly lift one completely off the surface of my fingers and the other will pull it back.
- Getting one finger stuck between them hurts like hell
- One will pull the other from a surface against gravity from a distance of about 1.5 inches.
The presence of a banker is sure evidence that this is a scam. Bankers will believe almost anything except the truth.
Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
What makes you think we want you here? If you want to make money off of foreign countries, at least do it the American way; sue them or bomb them.
Apparently it's necessary to explain, in layman's terms, why it's impossible to extract energy from a permenant magnet by 'depleting' it.
...the crystal structure of the...
A piece of material that is potentially magnetic has the same ammount of 'magnetism' regardless of whether it sticks you your refridgerator or not. The only difference between an iron bar magnet (for example) and a chunk of iron is that the magnetic domains...
(no, wait, that's not a layman's term)
(argh, this is harder than I thought)
Ok, a piece of iron is made of atoms. Each of these atoms has a magnetic field that points in a particular direction (never mind why). So, each atom is like a tiny magnet.
In a non-magnetic chunk of iron, the atoms are all oriented in a random direction (this is a simplification, but accurate enough for our purposes.) So all of the magnetic fields cancel each other out.
In a magnet, all (well, most) of the atoms are aligned in the same direction. So their magnetic fields reinforce each other and add up to a big magnetic field that you can measure macroscopically (by sticking it to your refridgerator.)
So, a magnet doesn't really 'store' any energy. Magnetic material is magnetic, regardless of whether it is 'a magnet'. A magnet is depleted as thermal, concussive, electro-magnetic or quantum effects eventually re-randomize the 'tiny magnets' inside it, and no energy is liberated in the process.
My PC is quiet enough. Noise isn't even important, I want an electric/hybrid car to use a large one of these! At 80% more effeciency, it would be a revolution in hybrid automobiles.
...and it can be scaled up to far larger sizes, it could revolutionize hybrid drivetrain designs for automobiles.
Imagine a hybrid drivetrain that needs a battery a small fraction of the size of what is needed now on the Honda Civic Hybrid or the Toyota Prius. This will make is possible to put a lightweight hybrid drivetrain in a Toyota Echo and get fuel efficiency approaching 80 miles per US gallon with no loss of power! =)
Raser Technologies recently (ie within the last year) introduced technology to convert existing electric motor designs to run not more effeciently, but more powerfully. Their patented (with a real US patent) design allows a motor to produce up to three times as much power than previously achievable. All electric motors can be "overdriven" to provide more power in short bursts. This technology (which they dub Symetron) allows the motor to run at those higher powers at a sustained rate without burnout or explosion.
Unlike Kohei Minato, Raser Technologies has been to various trade shows, hosted several demonstrations and posts results done by 3rd party test facilities. Also unlike Japan Magnetic Fan Company, Raser Technology is a publicly traded company under the stock symbol RSTG.OB.
Although not as revolutionary or jaw-droppingly-fake, this new technology does have a huge amount of practicle applications. For example, currently to run an electric car you need about a 50-HP motor. Here's an example of how big a motor that's rated for 50 horsepower continious usage can be (610 lbs). A counterexample would be this video from a trade show where Raser Tech runs a bus on 500 horsepower motor that is noticably smaller.
Yes, these motors still have the same efficiency rating as the motors without the Symetron adjustment, but they are extremely small for their power ratings. The key is truly the power density.
><));>
Additionally, the metal case of the PSU acts like a Faraday cage and keeps most of the magnetic fields inside the PSU, but it is mainly there to keep you from electrocuting yourself (PCs are one of those few items of consumer electronics that the consumer is expected to open up at some point).
You'll note that all of the coils in a transformer are wound together closely - this is due to the strength of magnetic fields decreasing rapidly (faster than the inverse square law) as you move away from the source. You can't seperate the coils by much distance and "transfer all the hundreds of watts your PC needs through the air as a magnetic field". It just doesn't work like that.
There is some electromagnetic noise from the power supply, but not very much really. Open up a piece of consumer electronics (like a Tivo or CD player for example) and you'll note that they didn't even bother to put any shielding around the PSU, because the magnetic field strength coming from it is really weak. How do they get away with it? The fields just aren't that big that they cause any problems with modern digital electronics.
Open up a dead hard drive sometime and you'll find two really really strong magnets and an electromagnetic coil in the head actuator assembly, adjacent to the sensitive magnetic media. How do they get away with it? Simple, the field is really quite small.
Unless your power supply includes the type of electromagnet used on a scrapyard crane, I wouldn't worry about it - the field is much smaller than you might think.
Putting moderation advice in your
Actually, you're right. Simply put, (and I am oversimplifying this) the shrouds you always find around the *pairs* of magnets effectively contain the magnetic field.
Try taking the two halves of the magnetic assembly in the hard drive and putting them together like how they are when mounted in the drive. Now bring your favorite piece of non-magnetized ferromagnetic material near the magnet pair. You should notice that there's virtually no attraction.
Now, put your ferromagnetic material *in the gap* between the magnets--you know, where the head positioning coil goes--and you've got a *huge* attraction.
The field exists almost exclusively between the magnets because of that magnetically conductive shroud around the outside of both the magnets.
In theory, electric motors are already 100% energy efficient: if you use the motor to drive an electricity generator you get back the full energy you put in. In practice there is, of course, some loss to resistance and friction, but not much. So this claim is clearly bogus.
"Ironically, by the time he'd won patents in 47 countries, the Japanese patent office turned him down on the grounds that "[the invention] couldn' t possibly work" and that somehow he was fabricating the claims.
But a few months later they were forced to recant their decision after the US patent office recognized his invention and gave him the first of two patents. As Minato notes: "How typical of Japan's small-minded bureaucrats that they needed the leadership of the US to accept that my invention was genuine.""
He seems to imply that the fact that the US patent office (renowned for its absurd patent-giving capabilities) said that his perpetum mobile works, is a reference.
In fact, the japanese patent office was damn right, and it's the US that fucked it up once again. BTW, they *DID* give patents before to 'inventors' of impossible perpetum mobile machines, yopu know.
It's rather ironic he uses the dumb-assed US patent office to substantiate his foolish claim.
4+? What kind of primitive counting scheme is that?
Let's see, I've got one goat, and another goat; that makes two; and another makes three. If I get yet another goat, then I've got four-plus! Add another; I've now got four-plus!
If your comment title says 'Re: Foo', I'm not likely to read it.
If his claims are based on making the motor more efficient under a light load, the same result can be accomplished by using a lower-rated motor.
I just realized I'm an idiot.
The answer is THE SUPERPOSITION PRINCIPLE.
No matter how many fixed magnets you align, the total magnetic flux through a closed loop of the system is exactly zero. You can't cleverly align the magnets in a such a way to have a magnet in between them "keep spinning". You can give it an initial angular mometum and if the system is carefully designed it might not impede on it but you can't keep giving a push. The fields will exhibit equal push and pull on some part of a moving object through a fixed path. If you using a changing electric field on the non fixed part, you still will have counter EMF.
It's gotta be a crock. All he has to do is connect his device TO ITSELF through a lightbulb or resistor and I'll be happy.
He has not done that yet.
FUCKING LYING PRICK
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
So I've been found out... I hated my power classes. Ergo, I've chosen another avenue in EE, as my name belies. As you state, V and I are vectors in the complex plane. Obviously, the maximum of the vector multiplication (assuming dot product) exists when the two vectors lie along the same line. If the vectors are not linearly dependent, then you get the Preal and Pimaginary, as you state. Even with phasor/vector considerations included, the measured values from the article don't mention the relative phases of the V and I. Assumption alert: I would assume that their measured V's and I's are RMS, as opposed to peak values. Would you agree, (insert name of EE specialising in power)?
I'll take you to the ball, Barbara Manitee!!!
The claim that the extra energy is coming 'from permanent magnets' is risible.
Risible? I thought it was laughable.
You must be trying to get a rise out of slashdotters.
-kgj
-kgj
Let me see... I've got a brushless motor right here... DC in... circuit to oscillate it to make the motor spin...
Look it up.
Sound too good to be true? Well, I've already gotten a contract from Microsoft to use it to improve Minesweeper.
WWJD? JWRTFA!
A table, right? So is the table doing any work, keeping the bottom magnet off the floor. Is the floor doing any work, keeping the table from plummeting into the center of the earth?
No.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
I used these to make perpetual energy using "The Incredible Machine"
Magnets, particulalry permenant magnets, are indeed a reservoir of magnetic potential energy.
This energy is small. Like, really small. I'm involved with calculations on magnetic materials, and we typically use units of meV (milli electron Volts) for a magnetic interaction coefficent. That's 1.602 x 10^-22 Joules. Values are typically between around 2 up to maybe 30. Might be higher with the special rare-earths, dunno.
Iron has 8 interactions per atom. Thus, a magnetic energy of the order of 2 * 10^-20 J per atom. One mole of iron will therefore have of the order of 2 * 10^-20 * Avagadro's number = 2 * 10^-20 * 6 * 10^23 = 12 * 10^3 J. That's 12 kJ of magnetic energy, in 55g of the stuff. [0]
So, a post about says that the moter has a discrepancy of 1.2 W (can't get to the article myself). With 55g of iron permenant magnets then, that's enough to run that system for 10 000 seconds. Might sound a lot, but that's 2.7 hours. If I'm within an order of magnitude, that's a runtime of the system of around a day at most, assuming 100% conversion of the magnetic energy into rotational energy. [1]
No. There is not enough magnetic energy in the parmenant magnets.
[0] In fact, I think that you could only get 1/2 of that out. Still, I'm ignoring that, cos I think that this is only within an order of magnitude.
[1] Which I doubt. A lot. In fact, I've never seen any suggested method for doing that.
nobody
Technology like this has one day a year to shine. This is not that day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either...
I have a plan. Using mainly spoons, we'll tunnel our way out of the city...
The only way you will ever get more energy out of a system than you put in is if there is a pre-existing source of energy in the system that someone else stored there. E.g. I flip the switch on a flashlight, and more energy comes out as light than I put into flipping the switch, but that energy is being removed from the batteries (a pre-existing component in the system), where it was stored by someone else. In the case of a magnetic motor, energy may be drawn from several sources: electrical input to electromagnets, existing momentum of the rotating shaft (flywheel), or most improbably it might come from the "energy in the permanent magnets". Most of the perpetual motion claims I have seen focus on this "permanent magnet" energy. Unfortunately, if an easy way were found to liberate this stored energy, it would have the side effect of demagnetizing the permanent magnet itself, essentially making the "p-m generator" nothing more than a battery harnessing the stored potential energy in the magnet... And before someone claims that permanent magnets hold an infinite amount of energy that could be thus released, remember that the exact amount of potential energy stored in a permanent magnet could be calculated by measuring the energy required to magnetize it, and this quantity is definitely finite. The only thing that violates the Laws of Conservation of Mass and Energy, is the Law of Conservation of Mass-Energy, which simply states that mass and energy are the same thing, so even in fusion, you still do not have a perpetual energy source.
Happened to run across these two other articles on the subject. The first one compliments Hohei's altruism. The second describes how he missed the ball on this one. http://www.gizmodo.com/archives/minatos_magic_magn etic_motor.php
http://www.gizmodo.com/archives/magic_motor_makes_ me_a_mook_015104.php
Comments?
RTFA. He doesn't claim the device produces more energy than it takes in, simply that it produces more than it takes in through the wall socket. It needs the wall socket to provide power to help start the device and keep it spinning, the system merely draws extra energy through the magnets, using them as a kind of battery.
The powers being harnessed are those of gullibility, ignorance and greed.
His patent number is 5,594,289. It's not he's keeping this a huge secret.. why not get one of the 40,000 fans he's selling and test it??? Are we not geeks?
How about linking a chain of these motors to generators to provide an infinite amount of electricity? With each step you'll be able to generate more electricity to power an even larger generator.
It's not so much that the field falls off at a cubic rate, rather its the spectral range of the fluctuations in question. The disk armature for the heads uses the most powerful magnet, it is in effect a half quadrant stepper motor that is designed to move very fast indeed to the cylinder you want.
The head however is just like a pickup for a record player in many ways, except it is a proximity magnetic transducer with aerodynamic properties such that floats above the disk surface. The amplifier for this (remember we are dealing with signals in the analog domain here) is a typical common-mode rejecting bridge stage with a high gain, but this is _filtered_ (high pass) so that artefacts like disk tremor and room vibrations are removed along with the low frequency fields from the armature. A quick application of Shannon tells you the rolloff frequency for this filter is about half one over the data transfer rate 1/2 x 1/rate (several MHz).
prisoner 9
This chap isn't exactly a physicist - but some of the "Crackpot Index" is applicable here. Nice set of criteria for determining plausibility:
Physicist John Baez's Crackpot Index
--- RK
1) Permanent magnet motors start at around 80% efficiency (for tiny motors) and get much better from there. Ergo, generating the same mechanical power output from only 20% of the electrical input - which is the principle claim in the article - puts this firmly in the realms of a perpetual-motion claim. Show me the requisite extraordinary proof...
2) The motor ain't the major source of noise in small fans. It's white noise from the inefficiency of a small rotor stirring the air at high speed - effectively a mechaincal-impedance mismatch.
3)IF I could do what the article claims, I'd run and sell out to the very largest industrial installations first - traction, pumping etc , where saving MWH contributes to the bottom line. And retire *loaded*, in a year or two.
Sounds very much like snake oil to me. What this is is doing on a News-For-Nerds website I have no idea.
(and no, I'm not as 'new around here' as my ID no. suggests...)
Martin.
...every time you use it, God kills a kitten.
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
I completely apologize for suggesting earlier that it might be possible with magnetic degradation. It's been 5 years since I've had proper E&M.
It's definitely a measurement error. If he can't show perpetual motion + load driving as evidence (qualitative, very simple), then it's all in the numbers. Remember kids, W = V*A, but more precisely, it's the integral of V(t)*A(t) from t_i to t_f divided by t_f - t_i. If V(t) is 0 while A(t) is non-zero at some time t, and vice versa, your total power is 0, even if average(V(t)) over all t is non-zero, and average(A(t)) over all t is non-zero.
Oops.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
it should be 'uses less energy', not less 'power'.
Does that mean it produces '80 percent less power'.
I must suspect Taco is smoking drugs.
The motor makes practically no noise. the last time that I checked, the air still needs to be moved.
Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein
My Guitar amplifier shorted out ....
saw a couple of perpetual motion schemes
/. headline says '80% less power' (80% less power does not mean "no power".)
Just because something is more efficient, does not make it 'perpetual motion.'
Or do you also believe that hybrid engines are perpetual motion too? After all, they are more efficient than regular engines, but use the same fuel, so they must be perpetual motion (hey, they even use magnetism, as part of the electric engines - that proves that it's perpetual motion!)
RTFA - nowhere does it say that this engine runs on nothing. Even the
Anyone who believes these claims, I have a bridge for sale for the low, low price of $1,099.99. Its very heavy, in fact it is the cause of earths gravitational field, as a result of its amazing design which harnesses one of the four fundamental forces of nature. Its gray, located in NY, and is just slightly used. If interested, just call 555 555-0001. Ask for I. P. Freeley. If you get a strange response from the person who answers the phone, we have a new secretary, just belligerently insist that they ask around the office until I'm found. I have also notified my colleagues, P. S. E Galore, Amanda Hugandkis, and Harvey T. Rabit, who may also be contacted at the same number.
all you have to do then is use a resistor-based voltage divider. Measure the output voltage. Pick resistors R_1 and R_2 such that between R_1 and R_2 the voltage V_r is exactly the same as the input voltage V_i. Then you can just route that back, right?
And if the current is insufficient, just use a buck converter to cut down voltage in favor of current (use smaller R_1 to compensate), until you match the inputs and outputs.
I'm sure there's at least enough surplus energy to counter the inefficiency in the buck converter, what with 200% + over unity, eh?
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
perpetual motion at last !!
Not sure what old skool drives you're using but the FDB drives are super quite, and not much more expensive than the others. The Seagate 120GB FDB drive I have is definatly the quietest moving part in my PC. I can't even hear it churning over the fan noise that's rated at a mere 28dB!
I have an HDD activity light, I don't need to hear the drive... blinky lights are MUCH cooler than some grindy, clicky, whirly sounds anyway.
- Disclaimer: Information in this post deemed reliable but not guaranteed.
Permanent magnets do not wear out.
And you can't arrange magnets to create non-linear magnetic fields. It just isn't possible. (IE no matter how hard you try, you will never find a closed countour integral that is non-zero)
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
People start using electric cars, california gets more blackouts, but sudenlly USA gets off Iraq (oh, c'mon, let's face the truth, freeding iraq people *should* be why troops are there), middle east countries loose money and probally most diactorial regims go off (but I won't say democracy will get it's place...).
It is a revolution! But it's a big IF, you know, oil companies are in the command of unidet states right now, or it looks like.
This guy is putting energy into the machine every time his magnet moves. Attach it to a fixed position say with a clamp and it would not work. Take a look at this video of Minato and then read the explanation here. You will need to search in your browser for minato because the page is long. Also you have to wait for the avi to completely download.
Hmmmm, sounds too good to be true but so did the aeroplane, penicillin and electricity, who knows. http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2004Mar/gee20040 405024594.htm
Tanstaafl
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
11 days late...
Either the reporter made an error with the stats, or the inventor is full of beans. I'll lay odds somethign was lost in translation. I can see an motor much more efficient than existing models, just not in excess of the power going into it unless it is quickly draning the magnetism from the permanent magnets. In which case is should have a very short shelf life.
(If at first you don't succeed, do it different next time!)
If you hooked one of these up to a printing press and had it run continuously, you'd have money for nothing! Now if Minato can only get us chicks for free, he'd be my personal hero.
Chuck
Magnets have a repulsive force, mm
It's called an elephant's trunk whereas it is in fact, an elephant's nose, a nose by any other name would smell as sweet
he uses in his "procedure" to sound like he "knows what he's talking about".
You can't use vaguely descriptive words to describe such a system, especially when you've never FUCKING BUILT ONE ANYWAY. There's all these supposititions, ZERO MATH, ZERO TESTING.
It's all fantasy mental masturbation by lightweight pseudo academics.
Arrrgh. You shouldn't have shown me that site.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
You Americans with your large penises are very superior and will undoutedly jump on this huge opportunity to continue your dominance of world industry. To hear more about how you're extreme prowess will prevail, listen to the following messages:
Signatures are a waste of bandwi (buffering...)
I still have a blood blister on my hand where I was playing with a pair of these a couple days ago and they suddenly stuck together, pinching the skin below my little pinky finger in between them. It hurt like hell.
:-)
These are damn powerful magnets, almost a quarter of an inch thick, and about an inch wide and almost 2 inches long. Came out of an old dead IBM 18.2GB SCSI drive. They also work wonders on turning someone's color CRT monitor into a psychedelic color display... permanently
Sorry, it was convience, not convenience, stores.
/.ers, show some respect for the judgement of these guy's!
Anyway, these are hard headed business men we are talking about here. They know efficiency when they see it. 300% efficiency. Those market forces always reveal the truth of these matters. So come on
I said:
If it takes 2 watts to generate 6 watts, then you can use a simple voltage divider (STATIC DISCRETE COMPONENTS) to derive 2 watts from those 6, negating the need for the wall socket or battery in the first place. You could use a variable potentiometer to go from the battery power source to the internal power source linearly, to avoid any undue fluctuation in the power supply.
Or are you saying that the power requirements are not constant and "lead" the output in such a fashion that the requirements will eventually exceed the output, nessitating an push greater than the output can supply?
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
Looking at the patents for this reminds me of something i saw once, that is that the field put out by one magnet in series drives another, in a circular chain this 'could' produce enough rotation to keep the housing spinning like a fairground carousel with the horses as magnet and no central engine. This was mentioned a long time ago as being a component of 'anti-gravity' device. Shape of magnet seems to be important which surprises me, in most of the considerations for such a device the magnet is 'birds head' moulded like yin and yang shape. If these magnet spin opposing each other then there *is* a force that is 'free', doing much with the energy would require huge transference technology (magnet and housing) as currently exist though surely?
Contradiction ALERT!!!!!!!
"Placing one on my fingers, it will attract and hold the other to the opposite side of my fingers, against gravity (doesn't hurt)."
vs.
"Getting one finger stuck between them hurts like hell."
and
Sounds like your average con man putting on a show for the marks.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
I think this guy should team up with the world's other great authority on magnetism, Alex Chiu.
Did you say 1.2W x 2.7hours = energy in 55g pm?
how does that energy density compare to typical batteries. If it were possible to extract energy from the pm would they make a good battery?(ignoring any inefficiencies in recharging it).
Del cross H = -dE/dt+Jf
Del cross E = -dH/dt
With these two relations, you can turn either form into the other with what is essentially a coil.
The moment you claim 330% efficiency, and in the same breath say you haven't violated the laws of physics is the moment it becomes total bullshit.
If it were 330% efficient, that would mean, for instance, it draines 100W, and puts out 330W.
Throw in a generator in a closed loop, and the device could power itself forever, while producing excess power. The world's energy problems would be solved, forver.
"Harnessing one of hte basic forces...".. bullshit.
You don't harness a force, you use it.
If you push two similar magnetic poles together, you build up potential energy.. when you stop pushing, that energy is used up moving the poles apart.
In order for gravity to work on something, it first has to be raised up in the gravitational field... (it has to go up to come down). This takes energy.. and ideally, the same amount of energy.
Now, although it's possible this guy has invented something that branches out into totall unexplored areas of physics.. it is quite unlikely... more likely he has created a nice, efficient, quiet motor, and is measuring things the wrong way.
Nothing has over 100% efficiency, sorry.
A U.S. Patent? Shit, I got one of those in my cornflakes this morning. :o)
That was my first though - B.S. Read on for the real most efficient electric motors in the world. Three phase motors do quite a lot better than that source quoted and can reach .9 power factor (output power / input power, integral over time makes it work / energy). Dr. Smith's single phase motors get near unity power factor, often better than the three phase motor they were built from, on a single phase supply. They also have amazingly low starting current, greatly easing peak loads for power companies. We should be using these things in all our refrigerators and small installations to conserve power. For example, he designed a 40 hp single phase motor for irrigation that runs at 94.4% efficiency!
First time I've seen a "Mod parent up" as Insightful. Let's see if I can ride that wave...
<tim><
Hmmm, no wonder it sounds familiar. Oh, wait, it's a crock of shit. SUPRISE!
Ever build one yourself? Did those storage batteries last as long as you thought they would? And what math do you speak of?
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
Good grieve, man! Don't just stand there, get your butt to the patent office right away!
:)
The USPTO needs people with at least a hint of a clue especially now more than ever!
"Oooh, does that mean we get to kick some puffy white mad zionist butt?"
The requirement for an overunity COP EM power machine is that it must not symmetrically regauge itself, but instead must asymmetrically regauge itself. In that latter case, it takes on excess free regauging energy from the active vacuum environment.
Gauge freedom assures us (check it out in physics) that one can freely change the potentials of the equations describing a system, and at will, without requiring any work to be done. That means that we can freely change the potentials of an actual system, and thus the amount of potential energy it has, absolutely for free and at will. There is only a relatively small amount of information that has been published on the thermodynamics of regauging, gauge freedom, and regauged systems, but that thermodynamics is quite formidable, once one examines things such as source of the excess input energy, form of the excess input energy, and overall permissible COP of the regauged system.
Putting it in thermodynamic terms: The simple transmission/transfer of energy (energy flow) does not require work. And all that is required to increase the magnitude of a potential (and the potential energy of that system being described by the equations) is to transfer in some additional energy in that same potential energy form. Work is only done when the FORM of the input energy must be changed.
Hence wherever there is an energy flow ongoing, a system can have this energy flow simply pour in the excess energy it needs to cover its losses and to be dissipated in (i.e., to power) its loads. If we do it asymmetrically, that is all that happens.
Thermodynamically this is now a system far from equilibrium in its energy exchange with its active environment, and such systems are permitted to perform five "magic" functions. Such a system can (1) self-order, (2) self-oscillate or self-rotate, (3) output more energy (as powered loads, etc.) than what the operator alone inputs (the excess energy input obviously comes directly from the active environment, in that free energy transfer), (4) power itself and its load (all the energy comes directly from the active environment, and the operator need not pay for any extra energy input), and (5) exhibit negative entropy.
So obviously the trick is to (1) have an active environment that is exchanging energy with the system, and (2) have the system receive and accept extra energy from that environment. An extreme example is a windmill, which has a COP (useful work out divided by the energy input by the operator only) of COP = infinity even though its efficiency (useful work out divided by total energy input from all sources) is usually less than 50% and it wastes half or more of the total energy input that it receives from all sources. An electrical example is a common solar cell array, which may have an efficiency of only 20% and waste 80% of all its input solar energy, but it has a COP = infinity because the operator inputs zero energy and the external solar radiation environment inputs it all.
So no working machine will have efficiency greater than 100%, but if it receives excess energy from the environment, it can readily have COP>1.0 and thus output more real, useful work than the amount of energy input furnished by (and paid for by) the operator. The common home heat pump is a good example. Its overall efficiency is usually about 50%, and so again it wastes half of all the energy input to it, from all sources (operator and the atmospheric environment). But it receives so much energy from the atmosphere that it can still output (nominal conditions) from 3.0 to 4.0 times as much heat energy as the electrical energy input that the operator furnishes and pays for. So its COP = 3.0 to 4.0, while its efficiency is only about 50%.
That said, let us look for active environment and energy exchange with it, by such machines as the several magnetic power systems in question.
Every charge (either electrical, or magnetic - in which latter case we call it a "pole") in the universe continuously absorbs EM energy
It'd take no longer than a real pendelum would to stop. Sure the force equations in time would be much more complex, but the total energy removed from the system would decay at the same rate (the amount of energy lost to fricition won't change). Your magnets both pull, ALL THE TIME. They don't just switch on during the approach, they also pull by an equal amount as it recedes (under gravity).
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
here
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
A rock musician from noplace near Utah has invented a perpetual motion machine. Don't believe him? Well he's had it checked out. Not by MIT, Honda, or Tokyo Gas and Electric, but by an unnamed Japanese discount store. How can you not trust unnamed Japanese people? Closer to home: Idaho: http://www.genesisworldenergy.org/about.htm Utah: http://atl2.netfirms.com/engy/pantone.htm Arizona: http://www.josephnewman.com/
Of particular merit is the one that shows Minato on CNN... and you can clearly see his arm doing the "work" of keeping that wheel moving.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
This has been stated in many previous comments but I thought perhaps it'd be useful to state it as simply as possible.
Magnetic forces do no work. This is hard to believe for many people, but any situation where it appears a magnetic force is doing work...it's not. Please see page 207 of your Griffiths Introduction to Electrodynamics college text.
I have a magnetic personality
Lt Col Tom Bearden (US Army, retired) has been predicting this since 1995.
It's fascinating to read Bearden's views. He claims that what we know as Maxwell's Equations are actually gross oversimplifications, made by Heaviside, of the real Maxwell's Equations -- and that a lot of amazing physics would be possible if we would go back and exploit all the possibilities in the real Maxwell's Equations. Heaviside's "arbitrary crippling" of Maxwell is basically the reason we haven't yet colonized Alpha Centauri.
There is a lot of overlap between Kohei Minato's research and Bearden's. Bearden made quite recent comments about Minato's motor.
By the way, Minato's invention is called the "MagMotor." Does anybody know whether this is related to the Magmotor Corp. of Massachusetts?
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
yeah, that's ALL we need. a bunch of permanent magnets inside our computer driving our fans.
CmdrTaco had to know full well that the inventor's claim is rubbish, and hardly newsworthy. So why wave the submitter's wide-eyed naïveté around in public, rather than quietly passing over his story?
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Good news everyone! I've created a new kind of motor. It uses magnetism to perpetuate the motor motion. As a result the motors uses 80% less energy than a conventional motor, while still maintaing the same horsepower. Also, I've taught the hair dryer to write lovely sonnets!
;)
Oh man, I can actually hear Billy West's awesome voice saying that
Any technology distinguishable from magic, is insufficiently advanced.
Too bad magnets do not work when they get hot.
First AWESOM-O and now this!
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
We know something you don't know
&
Yes, but we'll sue them
What worries me are phrases like "proprietary design innovations", "proprietary scientific principles", "strict confidentiality agreement", etc. I read their Press Briefing, which left me more and less satisfied. The best i can piece together is that they've got better cooling, some special design tweaks and a "means for increased magnetic energy storage" The deeper you go the curioser it gets...
Just for shits and giggles they make almost the same claims as our Japanese friend. "300% more power" anyone? Their SEC filings make for veryinteresting reading. they've only spent 600K on R&D since raser's inception, they haven't obtained patents yet (only applied for them), "Raser's auditor's report contains a "going concern" qualification", "Our officers have no long-term experience with electrical motor sales"... I just can't understand... If their tech is so mindblowing how come it isn't everywhere?
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Time to renew my membership in Radio Shack's Battery of the Month Club.
Just think of the number of fans you could power for free if we all banded together! Mwuahahahahha.
Joe Newman has been saying for years that a Japanese motor company stole his motor designs.
Use Hawking radiation for the usual boiling water -> steam -> turbine -> generator progression!
Now all we need is a source of small, manageable black holes for fuel...
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
If we can safe 80% of energy, does it mean that using the same amount of energy we'll be able to make 5 times the horsepower?
So a measly 60 hp motor will become a monster 300 hp on the same amount of fuel?
If so, I'll be first in line for the next car that uses the motor.
Note that the above calculates the total energy involved in the magentic states, and shows that even if all that energy was extractable, then it would be insufficent.
A similar argument applied to the chemical energy in (say) iron would give a number that is around 1000 times greater than the energy that is extratactable by chemical reactions (such as burning or other oxidation reactions). Were there a method for extracting the magnetic energy [0], then I would be very surprised if the accesable portion of the magnetic energy was a significantly greater part than that.
This is not important to my argument above, but might be relevent if you try to use the above back-of-envelope sums for anything else.
[0] I'll repeat myself - I'm not aware of any, and this would be of import in my research area.
Anyway, I have three questions for all the very-smart-people here who are knee-jerking with such vehemence on this story. (Over 700 comment posts? Oh my! What deep nerves we have struck!)
You can gauge the depth and intensity of a piece of social programming by the violence of the public auto-response. Interestingly, it's around now that this kind of technology would be 'allowed' into the public realm. Oil is going the way of the dodo, after all! Seems kind of a moot issue, to me, though. What with the world ending and all.
But who listens to me? It's not like my articles rate thumb tacks on this cork board.
-FL
Existing electric motors are from 80% efficient on up. So if you put 1 Watt in you get 0.8 watts out.
So comparing against an inefficient current motor if the motor used 80% less electricty it would require only 0.2 Watts in to get 0.8 watts out.
That is, you would get 4 times as much energy out as you put in.
Squirrel!
n/t
(What does n/t stand for, anyway?)
That that is is that that that that is not is not.
On top of the energy savings the motor runs cool to the touch and is significantly quieter
This seems like the only disadvantage, but I'm quite sure that it could be eventually made sound like a 10 liter V8 to be accepted here in the US, even despite the energy savings. This is great news.
They have been having difficulties getting things off the ground
"Taligent is still pure vapor. Maybe they'll be the last who jumps up on Openstep... "
Wouldn't gravity (in conjunction with the magnets) be the main source of energy for the perpetual machine? I mean, gravity is a huge source of energy coming from the core of the earth. Most of the time, it's wasted holding us down - like a fast CPU with few processes - instead of doing something creative.
READY.
PRINT ""+-0
These videos were taken by one of our staff on Friday, March 5, 2004, with a Canon A80 camera.
While not of professional quality, they give a good idea of how the motors are constructed and how they work.
(We recommand that you use Quicktime to see the movies. You can download it here for free.)
MinatoFanb:
A video of a 1 watt fan in operation.
(AVI: 18.5MB)
MinatoCPUFanb:
A video of a tiny CPU cooling fan in operation.
(AVI: 21.8MB)
MinatoPCFanb:
A video of a standard sized PC cooling fan in operation.
(AVI: 19.9MB)
MinatoCarAirconb:
A video of a prototype Toyota Corolla airconditioning fan, with a secondary generator attached.
(AVI: 32.1MB)
Enjoy!
http://www.lutec.com.au/
The Lutec 1000 is claimed to be more than 100% eficient (lets see all those themodynamics laws thrown about now)
I leave you with this question, how is it that an electro magnet can consume large amounts of power to keep a 10kg weight suspended, yet a permanent magnet can do the same job without consuming any power? This is the energy source they are using. The tough part is timing the "kick" to keep the motor from polling.
Cutting the electric engine weight in half + size reduction will greatly help hybrid gas/electric cars beat the shit out of traidtional gas engines.
Give me one of those + a few high performance nanotube'd capacitors.
-Lucas
Does'nt anyone have any sense! ALL motors use magnetisim.
Informative?
Ha! Ha! Ha!
Mod the parent "Funny".
The force supplying the unexplained extra power out is generated by the magnetic strength of the permanent magnets embedded in the rotor.
Wow!! He used the exact same principle as electric motors!!
Seriously people... take some physics 101 class and learn a tincy bit about electromagnetism before you go all ape over some guy designing a better motor.
Why don't we stop bitchin' and moanin' and get some japanese slashdotters down to this guy's shop. do a little interview, take a little look see... ...sneak in a keychain sized video camera... and then report back to us about what the real deal is. Then the issue will be settled and we can all go back to compiling kernels while wishing we were out on a date. ...not that that has ever happened to me.
-----
After all is said and done...usually more is said.
let hear more discussion about the engine and can it perform like the designer design or is it an overhype mistaken monitor piece of motor.
Maybe some scientist in Japan can visit and bring their test equipment and monitor the motor. Can it do what it suppose to do? can the law of thermodynamic be wrong? you never know.
In this case "stupidity".
(The other three are greed, lust and self-riteousness)
_O_
.|< The named which can be named is not the true named
A modern electric motor (e.g. a brushless motor) is more than 80% efficient. This means that the mechanical energy you get out is 80% of the electrical energy you put in.
The claim that the proposed motor is 80% more efficient than current motors is complete hogwash.
A normal 100 Watt motor puts out 80 Watt of mechanical power. According to the claim, the so-called new motor would only require 20 Watt of electrical power to produce those 80 watts of mechanical energy.
It would mean that the motor produces more mechanical energy than the electrical energy you put in. THIS IS CLEARLY IMPOSSIBLE UNLESS YOU THROW AWAY ALL OF PHYSICS SINCE NEWTON
If the claim were true, you could have one of these motors drive a generator, then have this generator drive another of those motor, which would drive another generator.....
With enough stages, you could power an entire country with a 9v battery. Bullsh*t.
I think this so-called inventor simply doesn't know how to measure electrical power. He probably measured the average voltage, and multiplied by the average current. Unfortunately, that does not give the average power if the current and the voltage are pulsed (which is apparently the case).
The average power is: integral( current*voltage ),
what you measure with a couple of multimeters and a calculator is integral(current)*integral(voltage).
NOT THE SAME THING.
The amazing thing is just how gullible those technologically-challenged bankers can be.
- Anonycous Moward
I've got one of the Y.S. Tech TMD (Tip Magnetic Driving) fans on my CPU heatsink, and it's fantastic.
http://www.dansdata.com/tmdfan.htm
Probably hurting my karma but:
If it violates science, then something is most probably wrong somewhere and its not necessarily the guy causing the problem. Could be some sort force not being accounted for is at play, bad math or maybe gravity is at play. After all, we don't have all the laws in reguard to the known forces and how they relate to each other.
Point is, a true science minded person is open to the low chance something we don't know is going on--- go proof it false, don't "believe" its false . Find the math error, physics error or the new discovery. Its the questioning creative types that make the great leaps forward.
Peer review is what really makes science work.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
they drown out the neighbors and the geese and the errant children all of whom mill around in the daytime while i'm sleeping avoiding daylight
;P
why yes it is an athlon
You get riled up pretty easy for a guy with a bunny rabbit sig.
It certainly doesn't seem like he's being deceptive. He may have just designed a highly effiecient motor (note that it still takes electricity to run, it's no perpetual motion machine). He may not even be fully sure what he's done, which is why some of his extrapelations on his current product get ridiculous. But the motors spin on less power, that in and of itself is something amazing...
--The universe will not be altered by forum threads, even those which are very wry. --Tycho Brahe (Penny Arcade)
From the article: "But according to the laws of physics, you can't get more out of a device than you put into it. We mention this to Kohei Minato while looking under the workbench to make sure there aren't any hidden wires."
An input of 540mW and output of 1.755W, and they look for hidden wires. Well, my cellphone works without any wires connected to it, and I didn't notice any wires connected to the cars running down the street either. Notice how the article would be consistent with the laws of thermodynamics if they used BATTERIES or FUEL instead of magnets. Minamoto does say that the rest of the energy comes from magnets. At best, the magnets may have been used to store energy in the system, to be released later. But in any case, Minamoto can't claim that he got a 330% efficiency without also claiming that he overcame the laws of thermodynamics.
It isn't wrong to question established laws of Physics, since scientific laws are nothing but repeated observations. But I would think it would take much more than selling 40,000 motors to a convenience store to refute thermodyne.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Just send me 10 of these for evaluation.
The difference between spam and poop is that you don't have to dig through septic tanks looking for real food. -- Me
Okay, so this sounds a lot like one of Robert Heinlein's Shipstones. OMG. I've got butterfies. wow.
True alternating current is a current that reverses polarity. The current in DC motors doesn't reverse polarity, it switches on and off.
Of course there's always a change something we don't know is going on, but the unfortunate fact is that 999999 cases in a million it's a crook. Besides, it's very easy for this guy to prove his claims.
If he hooks up the miracle motor to generator and uses that generator to power up the motor and it keeps running (should be easy with 330% efficiency, you can also draw infinite amount of energy from the circuit while at it) then he has either found the invisible and so far unexplainable power source or has proven that laws of thermodynamics don't work and perpetual motion machines are possible, you can bet that million physicists will swarm in to observe it and everything we though we know will be turned upside down. He'll also be worlds richest person in no time.
Carefully observe how he fails to do that, and instead relies on (probably wrongly calculated or rigged) simple electrical meter. Now ask yourself why? Simple answer: because it doesn't work, and this is nothing but a con.
wow this post is late!!!!! i thought april's day way like almost three weeks ago. i dunno...if it is true, then good for us.no more oil wars... ianal(i am not a liberal)
<sig> anyone that says the pen is mighter than the sword never fought a broad sword with a sharpie</sig>
Looks like a scam. Smells like a scam. Sounds like a scam.
This guy claims the motor actually outputs more power than it consumes with an efficiency of 330% and what is the author excited about? Quiter PC fans. Yeah!
This reminds of the castaway who met the girl on the island and when she offered him anything he wanted, said "do you have an internet connection?"
Inventor: I have invented an Over Unity device
Author: Does it mean my PC will have a quieter fan?
O this learning! What a thing it is - William Shakespeare
from here:
e s_ me_a_mook_015104.php
http://www.gizmodo.com/archives/magic_motor_mak
Because if you mean that each PC contains tons of magnets, I will have to disagree with you.
My PC weighs much less than a ton, so it must contain less than a ton of magnets.
Or perhaps you were typing figuratively; e.g., tons <==> excrementload.
In that case, I would have to also disagree with you, because I am tired and just feel like disagreeing with someone.
Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
Bernoulli's principle is actuall very well documented, analysed and mathematically proven... in physics...
do a google search with the words Bernoulli airplane wings.
Christ, Buddha and That Guy With A Fork!! Get a grip guys! THIS is news that matters!
Or a prank......
...and he grinned, like a fox eating shit out of a wire brush.
Even though it appears that the (electrical) energy input by the operator into the motor is less than the generated power at the output, the classical electromagnetic theory neglects the possible flow of energy from the outside when considering the static magnetic potential. The author compares it to measuring the efficiency of an electrical circuit containing a photovoltaic generator, without taking into account the energy brought by light.
A very interesting read anyway, thanks for pointing that out.
In Soviet Russia, our new overlords are belong to all your base.
when people on slashdot didn't have such a chip on their shoulder and took everything so seriously.
*Of course* it's junk science. It's still *fun* to read about it and whack it to pieces, discuss other weird ideias and whacko inventions we've read about.
If you want straight, sober, "serious" news there are plenty of sites like that out there...
I have seen 512 MByte small cards and have bought
256 MByte CF cards for a palm top and for Sony
eXilim (sp) cameras. No they are not gigabyte
caps, but look how small they are. If I had my
palmtop and my eXilim back when I was an inspector
of contracts for the Air Force in the early
1980's, my co-workers would have had me locked
up as an alien........I mean REAL alien like as
in little green men on the old ABC Warehouse
commercials
That's the difference.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
This is all just a scam, he secretly hides a cold fusion device inside the motor! Idiot.
So, to sum the above comments. 1. The motor is assumed to be a hoax by people who take notice of the 330% efficiency mentioned. Which is pretty understandable. Nobody wants to rewrite the rules of physics that have served us so well so far (Note: "rules", not "laws"). 2. What Tom Bearden's highly interesting comment claims though (see somewhere in comments), is that the efficiency is gained by exploiting other source of energy. Ie. it is not 1 W input -> 2 W output, but rather: 1W input + X W other source -> 2 W output. In this case, the efficiency may well be very low actually, as long as most of it comes from a source that requires no cost from the user. Tom's post mentions an analogy with a windmill. You may well need electricity to run it, but basically you rely on wind, not electricity, to turn the blades. The inventor's motor is thus probably more adequately called a "magnetic"/"magneto"-motor rather than an electromotor. Some interesting texts to that effect are mentione d in the Flying Dutchman Project: http://www.fdp.nu/thebook/default.asp including the instructions for building your own constructions that demonstrate the principle (and sound quite practical, at least in the post): http://www.fdp.nu/thebook/rpmm.txt
There is alot of computer geeks here that know jack shit about physics. The majority of the power is derived from the permanent magnets. The electrical input is just enough to turn the motor past the magnetic lock position. This is not a new concept and does not in any way violate the laws of thermodynamics. With the availability of rare earth magnets now in reach of everybody I believe within a few year's ALL ELECTRIC MOTORS will use either this method or something similar.
The only limit to these methods of energy production is the life & strengh of the magnets.
If everyone thought like the majority of sheep on this board we would be reading hand printed books under candle light.
And yes IAAP.
Red eye's at night, Hackers delight. Red eye's in the morning, Professors Warning.
Sorry, I fell in to 'military mode' again.
"I'm just here to regulate funkiness."
Finally, someone pointing out the reason why so many people are getting suckered. Everyone thinks that fridge magnets are doing "work" and are "power"ful when they are simply producing a force.
The humanities used to refer to the studies that a person needed to survive in modern society (and not get suckered), and this included math. I think that today physics should be added to this category as well.
one of the next "the future is now" signs will be a distributed power grid, where each home or city block supplies its own power, and feeds excess power to a storage battery or back into the grid.(actually i hope it turns into micro generators, like one for each office, or even for each large unit- ie compressor, refridgerator, etc).
would this technology would allow for each house to have its own generator and have a trickle charge from the master grid keep kicking the magnets to turn the gens kinetic energy back to electric, at 1/5 power consumption? granted this would hinge on efficient generators, dynamos etc. but it could cut total home energy consumption by 80% if it isnt some blatent physics blasphemy.
on a diferent note, why not have these magnets help out combustion engines and reduce fuel consumption. the combustion would provide crazy power, to kick the magnets and generator to do so which would power the magnets that are helping the engine turn over (or a flywheel), thereby reducing the force needed to compensate for the engines inertia.
then... you could have a small diesel engine (running a biodiesel mix no doubt) with these magnetic helpers generating power (the generator has these helpers too)to drive another electric motor (with helpers)that would propel the vehicle. diesel engines can idle for_a_long_time (while maintaining good amounts of torque at such low rpm) and can run on alternative fuels. but, easier said than done im sure. doesnt mean it shouldnt be.
|plastic....or gasoline?|
I don't have the exact transcript, but Brain had gotten a job (while wearing his human suit), and hides the suit, turns the microwave on, covers himself in non-dairy creamer, and then sues for workman's comp, as it was 'obvious' that the microwaves had turned him into a mouse.
During the trial, the lawyer explains how rediculous the claim is, and explains how microwaves work, and how it would be impossible for microwaves to have done this. And Brain asks something to the effect of 'but what about the non-dairy creamer?'
Just because it's unknown, doesn't mean that it's the reason that your problem works out. By Occam's Razor, it's quite possibly more likely that you just made a mistake somewhere else in the problem.
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
many forms of cf cards have a limited number of writes that they can preform till they start to die.
Hard drives have lifespans as well. And for filesystems such as FAT that repeatedly write to a given sector, doesn't each CompactFlash card's ATA controller perform automatic wear leveling, such that repeated writes to a given sector go through a translation layer that only the card can see?
This place is going downhill.
As for the claim in the grandparent, American physics students would know there was a conservation-law violation by halfway through first semester. Knowing that the permanent magnets would have to be degaussed to supply net energy to the output (a loss of integral over v of (B^2.dv)) is something that's taught in second semester (and tested on the AP exam if you take it in high school). Knowing exactly how such measurement errors can occur is slightly more advanced, but you'd get it in any electrical-power engineering course.
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
If the power is pulsed at a higher rate than the 'power meters' are meant to measure, then the meters might give inaccurate power measurements. Maybe this guy fooled himself and other people into thinking he'd invented a source of free energy. If he had, then he could hook one of his motors up to one of his 'generators' and it would spin forever. Since he didn't demonstrate that, he probably tried it and was puzzled as to why it didn't work, but is not about to spoil his lucrative conveience store cooling fan business.
Eat at Joe's.
while we're at it, this story seems to have even more spelling errors than scientific ones:
..."
"a result the motors uses"
should be either "the motor uses" or "the motors use"
"still maintaing the same horsepower"
should be "... maintaining..."
"a tradtitionally powered fan"
should be "... traditionally
"convience stores "
should be "convenience"
(and I did RTFA, these mistakes weren't in that, they were made by the dipshit who submitted this bogus story)
I love the magnets, too. I also used to use the platter as cool-looking drink coasters. But it eventually occured to me that I had no idea how hazardous (or not) the platter materials were w.r.t human ingestion.
I checked EPA sites to see if there were special disposal rules for hard drives, and didn't really see anything. But I gave up the coasters anyway.
Does anybody have positive information that they are safe?
The Techno Maestro's Amazing Machine
Kohei Minato and the Japan Magnetic Fan Company
A maverick inventor's breakthrough electric motor uses permanent magnets to make power -- and has investors salivating
by John Dodd
NEW! -- See video of motors working.
When we first got the call from an excited colleague that he'd just seen the most amazing invention -- a magnetic motor that consumed almost no electricity -- we were so skeptical that we declined an invitation to go see it. If the technology was so good, we thought, how come they didn't have any customers yet?
We forgot about the invitation and the company until several months later, when our friend called again.
"OK," he said. "They've just sold 40,000 units to a major convenience store chain. Now will you see it?"
In Japan, no one pays for 40,000 convenience store cooling fans without being reasonably sure that they are going to work.
The maestro
The streets of east Shinjuku are littered with the tailings of the many small factories and workshops still located there -- hardly one's image of the headquarters of a world-class technology company. But this is where we are first greeted outside Kohei Minato's workshop by Nobue Minato, the wife of the inventor and co-director of the family firm.
The workshop itself is like a Hollywood set of an inventor's garage. Electrical machines, wires, measuring instruments and batteries are strewn everywhere. Along the diagram-covered walls are drill presses, racks of spare coils, Perspex plating and other paraphernalia. And seated in the back, head bowed in thought, is the 58-year-old techno maestro himself.
Minato is no newcomer to the limelight. In fact, he has been an entertainer for most of his life, making music and producing his daughter's singing career in the US. He posseses an oversized presence, with a booming voice and a long ponytail. In short, you can easily imagine him onstage or in a convertible cruising down the coast of California -- not hunched over a mass of wires and coils in Tokyo's cramped backstreets.
Joining us are a middle-aged banker and his entourage from Osaka and accounting and finance consultant Yukio Funai. The banker is doing a quick review for an investment, while the rest of us just want to see if Minato's magnetic motors really work. A prototype car air conditioner cooler sitting on a bench looks like it would fit into a Toyota Corolla and quickly catches our attention.
Seeing is believing
Nobue then takes us through the functions and operations of each of the machines, starting off with a simple explanation of the laws of magnetism and repulsion. She demonstrates the "Minato Wheel" by kicking a magnet-lined rotor into action with a magnetic wand.
Looking carefully at the rotor, we see that it has over 16 magnets embedded on a slant -- apparently to make Minato's machines work, the positioning and angle of the magnets is critical. After she kicks the wheel into life, it keeps spinning, proving at least that the design doesn't suffer from magnetic lockup.
She then moves us to the next device, a weighty machine connected to a tiny battery. Apparently the load on the machine is a 35kg rotor, which could easily be used in a washing machine. After she flicks the switch, the huge rotor spins at over 1,500 rpms effortlessly and silently. Meters show the power in and power out. Suddenly, a power source of 16 watt or so is driving a device that should be drawing at least 200 to 300 watts.
Nobue explains to us that this and all the other devices only use electrical power for the two electromagnetic stators at either side of each rotor, which are used to kick the rotor past its lockup point then on to the next arc of magnets. Apparently the angle and spacing of the magnets is such that once the rotor is moving, repulsion between the stators and the rotor poles keeps the rotor moving smoothly in a counterclockwise direction. Either way, it's impressive.
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I wonder how long it will be until the Government busts in and crashes into his workshop and steals all of this inventions only to bury it to protect the Mega-Corporate businesses??
Waffling warning! Original post said fingers in BOTH instances, not hand!!!!! Bloopid Gloripope!
Since when was a magnet's "energy" - potential or otherwise - derived from its creation?
An iron magnet can be formed simply by allowing molten iron to cool slowly in one position. The Earth's magnetic field aligns the iron atoms during cooling. You can also do the same by striking an iron nail a couple of times with a hammer while aligning it with N-S. There is no energy involved in the first example, and much less than the force (over time) which can be performed with the second.
A magnet becomes demagnetized by being overcome with a strong enough magnetic field of differing alignment. The opposing field forces the atoms/molecules of the magnet out of alignment, reducing and eventually eliminating any co-ordinated magnetic effect. "Permanent" magnets are extremely resistant to this effect and last much longer than iron magnets, but the strength of the electro-magnetic field required to induce molecular alignment is nearly the same for both.
A magnet generates its field from the aligned motion of its electrons (a magnetic field is generated perpendicularly to the motion of an electrical charge). As the electrons are doing all of the "work", you'll have to confront their energy source when determining whether this is a bunch of BS or not.
Do you know how electrons keep their orbital energy? I don't. I really don't in the face of an opposing magnetic field, which *should* alter their energy flow.
I'd cut down on the "it's BS" comments until you can give up a satisfactory explaination.
The "Laws of Thermodynamics" are still theories, just like relativity. Learn to live with uncertainty.
Let us live so that when we come to die, even the undertaker will be sorry -- Mark Twain
Hover over the link 'the original wheel'. Whose name do you see?
The difference between spam and poop is that you don't have to dig through septic tanks looking for real food. -- Me
Why does this remind me of a flywheel?