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Rescuers Prep for Hybrid Car Accidents
mykepredko writes "I've driven a Toyota Prius for two years now and found this CNN article regarding the training required to rescue people trapped in hybrid cars to be slightly alarming. As an EE, I would expect that the electrical system is designed to be as well protected and fail-safe as possible in an accident, but if I'm ever in an accident, I'll make sure that any responders are wearing rubber gloves and boots and if any cutting is done, the roof is the only area they touch." Toyota has an accident guide indicating that if the airbags deploy, the hybrid battery pack should be automatically isolated.
"I can not bring myself to believe that if knowledge presents danger, the solution is ignorance" - Isaac Asimov
Is that this news is shocking.
If you are in an accident bad enough to need "responders" to get you out, odds are not great that you'll be conscious.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
... how will you give them said special instructions to avoid electrocuting you/them?
Never mind you electric car drivers, what about we poor bicyclists and pedestrians who can't hear you coming?
I'd like to suggest new electric cars be equipped with Jetsons-style "whuwuwuwuwuuwu" sounds as a safety feature. Actually, this might very well be an untapped commercial opportunity: custom car sound effects. Drive a wagon train! Drive a steam train! Drive the U.S.S. Enterprise! Be ironic and drive a Hummer!
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
I have heard that electrical wiring in the new hybrids run through all sorts of places, including roof and roof posts.
I have also heard of their being multiple batteries.
Also, some new mini-van with a glass roof has extra reinforced roof posts that my fire dept's hydraulic cutting tools cound't cut.
Finally, the presence of air bags everywhere all over the car frame is great, they can explode at random times.
New cars are making it really hard to get people out of them safely after an accident.
Programming is simply the application of logic to creativity
Yes, and in other accidents the gas tank could blow up, yada yada. I'm curious about battery acid myself.
slashdot, news for crazed liberal socialist zealots
And this is opposed to the safety of an internal combustion engine?
Where any accident will involve the spraying and leaking of a dozen gallons if highly flammable fluid?
Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
vs. dumb-asses.
500 volts? 45 volts is enough to kill you... at 10 amperes!
Seriously, aren't we nerds, or something?!
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
I have a lot of resistance to that sort of humor.
I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
We need more regulations so that they will be safe in crashes!
That should quell demand for these false economy hybrids.
if any cutting is done, the roof is the only area they touch.
And if the car is upside down?
I guess getting electrocuted is worse then getting burned when the gas ignites...or slow death from a polluted atmosphere
If Toyota engineers have any smart, they should NEVER have put electrical wiring around the door*!
* Unless it is designed to shock potential car thieves and other intruders.
Racing cars have a standard placed cut off for the motor/fuel line inside the drivers door for rescuers, why not something like that for the hybrids?
Trolling is a art,
Copyright 2004 Exxon Mobile. All rights reserved. This material may be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
You're right, something is fishy. ExxonMobil probably wouldn't spell thier own name incorrectly.
But the big question remains: will the radio still work after an accident? Anyone ever notice in those shows you see about car accident rescues (Rescue 911, cops, etc.), everytime they arrive at the scene of an accident, the radio is NEVER on?
You think that the car would have some sort of system to kill power upon impact, like link it with the airbag system, and possibly discharge the battery somehow. I mean honestly, a person life is more important that maintaining power during an accident, and I would rather it be over cautious and discharge prematurely, rather than not at all. Geez, technology just makes things more complicated
je suis parce que j'aime
My dad has a Civic Hybrid. All the necessary cabling runs under the car next to the frame rails. If rescuers are haveing to cut that deep, you're SOL anyways. Normally rescuers have to use the jaws of life on doors, and the associated A,B,C pillars. No electricals go thru there, other than side airbag sensors.
Sounds like another internet scare article put out by a 'reputible' source...
From the article:
The battery powering the electric motor carries as much as 500 volts, more than 40 times the strength of a standard battery.
Karma: Can there be a void?
.. -. - . .-. .-. --- -...
Judging by the size of the hybrids that I've seen, I doubt that after being hit by any of the overly large gas guzzling SUV's on the road today, there will be much car to actually cut.
The problem with these things isn't the danger of electricity, it's the danger of being under my suburban!
Certainly every man at his best state is but vapor
You moron, it's called sarcasm.
"They know not to cut into a hybrid's doors -- that's where many of the cables are --" Why in the world would there be high voltage in the doors? Maybe they mean the door sills? Or did Toyota save a buck by standardizing all their motors on 500V?
Anyone driving a vehicle which is sufficiently loud (e.g. cycle with loud pipes) to prevent others from hearing the quieter vehicles should be subjected to immediate confiscation of their sonic assault weapon. This would have the worthwhile effect of turning the ex-driver into a pedestrian, so that they could appreciate the hazards of overly loud vehicles from the opposite perspective.
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
You see a lot of panicy stuff about how dangerous
all that electrical energy in the batteries is,
but when it comes down to it if the car has the
same range as a similar normal car then there is
exactly the same amount of energy in the batteries
as there would normally be in a car's fuel tank.
But these aren't pure electric cars. They only
have a few km of range on the batteries and most
of the energy is in the fuel tank just like any
other car.
Extended comments at Gizmodo makes it clear that this is 99% rumor/FUD. Does anyone bother chacking the facts on these things before they're posted?
OK,
- B
http://www.bradheintz.com/
- updated
I'm pretty sure it was meant to be a joke rather than a troll. Not a terribly funny joke, but the flood of "Insightful" moderations which followed was pretty darn funny.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
you should be inducted into the pun hall of fame ;)
Xenon headlights require around 20,000+ volts to ignite and the ballast and accompanying circuity pose a serious safety risk to rescuers. The 20,000 volts is only needed when they are turned on, but nonetheless the generating circuitry is there. My understanding is that stock cars with these systems have a safety mechanism which disables the high voltage circuitry if the airbags go off. This article seems a bit of a red herring, cars are just goddamn dangerous things in so many ways.
...these cars should be designed to humanely discharge the batteries into the passengers in the event of catastrophic crash. This avoids the pain of the accident and cost of long hospital stays and relegates rescue personnel to safe recovery.
...since it would say Copyright 2004 Exxon Mobil Corporation.
That's it. You're grounded young man!
I had pre-airbags 1980's Saab 9000 that that had explosive charges on the seat belt mounts in the door pillars intended to tighten the seat belts at the moment of impact.
Both door posts had warning stickers not to crush the car or bad things would happen.
I guess the junkyard crushing machine operators got occassional surprises!
Ever dream you could fly? Get up from the Flight Sim. I Fly
Next generation hybrids--such as the Lexus V6-hybrid SUV--will have the eletric motor running the rear wheels while the gas motor runs the front wheels. This should cut down on dangers as the motors will be quite isolated from each other.
However, in ANY car wreck, a badly mangled car is dangerous.
Last year, the Rallye International de Quebec, up in Quebec City (which I'm sure most of you could've guessed from the name), had a Toyota Prius rally car running. Toyota was doing in the CARS series to show off that their hybrids could hold up to that kind of abuse.
The car sucked... badly... in almost all of the stages, because it was really fast for the first mile or two until it ran out of battery, and then the dinky motor wouldn't be able to give it enough power to keep up with anyone.
There was one stage at the hippodrome, though, where they were running a mile or so course on a twisty infield and part of a horse track. It was very competitive on there. It was so surreal though to have one roaring rally car after another go flying by, and then when the Prius ran, the first car went screaming by, followed a bit later by the Prius -- where all you could hear was the tires on the dirt/gravel.
Toyota say that the hybrid battery is supposed to be isolated if the airbag activates. So it's fuss over nothing.
The diesel in the VW is proven technology, but I was also worried about how the hybrids would be in an accident. Plus, the Golf TDI runs like an NBA player from his kids' wives. I know it will go 125MPH, but I was still accelerating when I decided to back off.
The Independent: Reverend Spooner Arrested in Friar Tuck Incident - ISIHAC, Historical Headlines
As the owner of a 2004 Prius, and being an engineer, I have never felt in danger.
First, the High Voltage system is isolated from the car body completely. Not even "ground" is shared. The cables and parts are shrouded in tough orange plastic.
Second, the article is incorrect on two points: the battery is only 200+ Volts, not 500V. The 500V is only between the inverter and motors.
Also, there are no high voltage components in the doors.
Because the airbag accelerometers are used to monitor whether the car is in an accident, the main battery relay shuts off right next to the battery long before any metal starts twisting its way into high voltage areas. The bigger danger is the battery (several NiMH cells) being split open, but it is protected by its location and special shrouds.
My biggest fear in an accident is that the E-personnel are scared into paralysis by rumors, and don't rescue me.
BTW, you can see the Toyota Emergency Responder guide at http://techinfo.toyota.com/
Actually I was trying to be funny, which doesn't get you any Karma anyway so calm down ... sheesh.
"I can not bring myself to believe that if knowledge presents danger, the solution is ignorance" - Isaac Asimov
I sense an anti-carjacking device coming from some on-the-edge /.'er. Something on the order applying 500 volts to a door frame at the push of a button...
Just flip it back over. They are so tiny it would only take 2 teenagers.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
I wish I had one. $30 a tank of gas is getting expensive...oh well....
It's either on the beat or off the beat, it's that easy.
I moderate therefore I rule!
--
But after an accident, any part of the wiring harness could be energized relative to the frame -- you just don't know, for example, if the dome light circuit is going to happen to be connected to the same bank of circuits that were smushed into the Big Orange Cable in a front-quarter collision that also happened to damage the fail-safe circuit breakers.
It's a big deal -- I imagine your training is similar to what the rural fire volunteers are getting here in Colorado: if it's a Prius, don't touch it!
Reminds me of the college kids who like to play with radiation warning labels: ``heh-heh. My laptop has a radiation sticker on it! Cool! heh-heh.'' The problem is that if you get in (for example) a car accident and one of those labels is visible anywhere around the car, there is no first aid for you until the radiologic response unit arrives from across town.
Diesel fuel is a lot safer in that respect. A freind of mine who drove a diesel car was in an accident once, and he and his girlfriend had to be cut out. If they'd been driving a petrol car there'd have been a bigger chance that they'd have been burned to a crisp.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
i think thats about enough punishment for one day
anymore and we're going to have to put you in the punitentiary
zr :-)
of a guy who felt the call of nature and went to relieve himself behind a hedge, as you do. Little did he know that there was an electric fence running through the hedge - he soon found out the hard way that water conducts!
Drill baby drill - on Mars
Try living in Europe. Last I heard it was about $6.50 per gallon.
Drill baby drill - on Mars
Not to wander off topic here but the subject of safety in Hybrid cars has got me thinking about what this article would be discussing if it were to be about "Rescuers prep for Hydrogen car accidents".
Perhaps another added twist (toungue unintentially planted in cheek) would be accidents with Hybrid cars and Hydrogen Fuel Cell cars?
Basically there are dizzying amounts of possibilities as to chemicals and their potential reactions let alone the variables as to safety when mixing human cargo.
I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. -- Hunter S. Thompson
Those batteries can be pretty nasty. I'm not just talking the battery Acid either. Some of the batteries in electric cars have to be heated to 200 degrees to work properly. And a lot of them contain some pretty nasty and toxic chemicals. Far worse than gasoline.
And if they explode due to a short or a fire, they'll not only act like shrapnel, but very poisonous shrapnel. I wonder if there are any safety regs dealing with this subject?
I'm against air bags on the premis that a safety device should NOT have a label on it that says, Caution: Risk of death
As an EE, I would expect that the electrical system is designed to be as well protected and fail-safe as possible, but...
As an intelligent human being, I'd expect a micro-car full of batteries to be likely to kill anyone stupid enough to ground on it after it has been mangled in a wreck. As someone having no overt desire to drive a giant battery, I have no reason to pretend otherwise. As a thoughtful individual, I won't be surprised when CNN points out how high pressure Hydrogen tanks are also an extreme hazard in accidents, and some other xE is astonished by the consequences of his eco-choice.
We have been refining automotive internal combustion systems for about a century. Everyone involved, from mechanics and insurance adjusters to rescue personnel, has an inherent understanding of the dangers. No great evolutionary change in our species has occurred during that time; we're still the same super-brained primates we were back then. So it stands to reason that we're going to have to learn the lessons in order to cope with these new machines, and that we'll do it the hard way; one nasty wreck after another...
Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
"Hybrid Car Accident"? Is that where an SUV crashes into a mini, and the result averages out to a sadan?
Table-ized A.I.
have you seen a 2004 prius? Its a medium sized car about the same class as an accord.
-
There are two problems with the above: it neglects the rate of energy transfer and the barrier to it. With a gasoline engine, both are reasonably high unless someone's walking around with matches, and emergency crews are smart enough not to smoke. The risk of shock is higher than detonation.
Also, there's no analogous concept of capacitance for gasoline. However, if the wrong cable gets severed, your ass is fried with an electric. Also, because stored electrical energy is less obvious than a puddle of gasoline, it's harder to avoid.
So there's about 5 reasons why one need fear hybrids in a crash more than regular cars
...Product Liability. If smokers can succesfully sue cigarette companies when most people had a pretty good idea cigs weren't health food, how can a surviving relative of an electrocution victim (or an accident victim where the rescuers got electrocuted instead) *not* sue an automaker for placing high-power wires where the company had good reason to believe rescue workers would cut through? Would any automaker's legal team let themselves be placed in that kind of jeopardy?
They will never stop until somebody makes the
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Who wants to bet that these rumors are being pushed by the US automakers and/or oil companies. Before you know it, they will get congress involved.
Money speaks louder that votes.
I went through a Toyota based car geek program at the local junior college. This was when the Prius was just coming out, so they brought one by.
The Toyota instructor showed us the heavy duty gloves they wear to turn off the power. Even in Toyota shops, you had to have special training to work on the Prius.
The instructor said as far as he could remember (he was only in his 40s), only one mechanic had been electrocuted to death working on an electric car. Some sort of Subaru he thought.
riding round the world on an old motorcycle
To hell with the hybrid car, what I want to know is....:
where's my flying car!!
Freak out the neighbors with your scary "EEEEEeeeee" noise, and get half the police force in the area on your butt!
Coming soon: Make your car blow up and make spectacular fireworks when you crash!!!!!
Oh wait, that comes standard anyway. Oops.
Watt's wrong with a little pun?
Why not have some system (explosive bolts or something like that) that disconnects the battery in case of a severe accident (where the airbags deploy). This way the system isn't energized and there are no stray amps running through the car. It would seem simple enough.
Gujju
. . . my Volvo 240 from the 80s. It gets better gas mileage than the SUVs of today, and if I'm in an accident, I hopefully won't need responders or anyone else to cut me out.
.)
The IIHS ranked the 240 #1 due to 0 fatalities per 100,000 cars from 1988 to 1993.
(It's not like the rescuers could cut through all the Swedish steel anyway . .
Y'know, sometimes, in those rare occasions that people have to DIAL 911, things might be a little scary for them. Most of the folks on the 911 line -I've- known had at least the basic grasp of that and you expect a certain amount of freakage. Screaming back at them seems less than useful, however a slap in the face it may be.
Uh... if it's the big boom in NORTH Korea, I don't think they have much in the way of 'extraneous luxuries' like hybrid cars... or export items in general... or basic medical supplies to treat the wounded... or FOOD to feed it's own people, with the current regime in place. :-(
IAAK
Another load of premium male bovine excrement from out friends in Texas and Munich/Detroit.
My THIRD Prius, an 04 (I've owned an 01 and 03 - both completely problem-free), is currently sitting in Port Newark. I am also a retired rescue captain so I can state with some authority that Prius fundamental design is such that it would take a deliberate act of stupidity for a rescue technician to manage to make contact with both the positive AND negative high voltage leads at the same time since both are ground-isolated and separately encased in conduit.
In real-fife rear-end accidents, only ONE Prius battery was damaged and it's safety issue was some minimal leakage of electrolyte; NOT "Deadly High Voltage"!
In fact, the Japanese national fire safety bureau (the official name escapes me at the moment) insisted that Toyota place the HV conduit inboard far enough that the "Jaws Of Life" can't possibly make contact in one or two "bites".
Sigh...
"I don't understand it???
I'm afraid of it!
KILL IT!!!"
T_O_M
Gasoline (unlike diesel fuel) is quite flammable in liquid form. It has a low flash point, and will ignite readily. When atomized and mixed with air, it isn't just flammable, it is EXPLOSIVE.
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I think I speak for many of us when I say I'm baffled that you have both battery acid AND gasoline on top of your head in sufficient quantities to correctly surmise which has a lower vapor pressure.
Tim
... if less than 1 ohm
OK, you could get a burn from about 500v DC. But, DC is relatively harmless. Edison used to travel about trying to push DC power transmission as the best method and demonstrated that a thousand volts DC wouldn't hurt a dog but AC would kill it.
And thus... the electric chair (which he wanted to call "The Westinghouse" because he was fighting with them over AC at the time").
Please folks, I said "relatively". You still would potentially get a burn from 200V and hurt. But, it isn't nearly as dangerous as you might imagine.
Oh, just go with the flow, will you?
Have you no capacity for humor?
That'll be tough; his comedy license isn't current. Besides, he's been charged with battery in the 9th circuit court...and though he's been conducting himself well, the outlook is negative and he'll probably end up extradited to his native Poland for incarceration. Luckily, he's an optimistic sort, so at least the cell's Pole will be positive.
Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
P=U.I*I
Yes it translate somehow to U=I*R.
But the "current" DO not translate to a U. If that would be that easy... We would not need to have both measure. You can have a battery of 6 volt 1 ampere and one with 500 volt 40 mA... They simply would not have the same puissance. And, if forced, I would rather touch the second...
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
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visit randi.org
Most truck/cycle accidents are caused by trucks turning across the path of cycles. If the bright headlight isn't enough to make the truck driver aware of the cycle, noise in the cycle's wake isn't going to help. It is especially not going to help if the trucker rides an unmuffled bike on his off hours and can't hear very well himself.
Getting into hybrid cars should be a snap for this guy! Dr. mega Volt
Slightly OT, but I have to say that none of these safety problems affect my opinion of hybrid cars, especially considering the fact that they aren't even really much more than concerns with any non-hybrid; however, what does is the fact that none of them seem to have an appearance I could stand to look at for more than 1 second, let alone drive around for everyone else to look at. Look at the picture of the Prius. I'm all about hybrid cars, but I would never ever ever purchase a car that looked THAT stupid.
500 volts? 45 volts is enough to kill you... at 10 amperes!
Seriously, aren't we nerds, or something?!
Apparently not as much of a nerd as you'd like to think, since you forgot to factor in frequency and duration.
High currents can be passed through (over) the human body at higher frequency a) because they tend to travel over the surface of the body and b) because the nervous system is less likely to react to frequencies 100Hz and upwards.
Also, you really should have mentioned duration, since this governs the energy delivered (which is, after all, what causes the most physical damage). Energy is Voltage * Current * Time. Electric fencers operate in the kV range, but only(!) deliver a few joules.
dumb-asses
Back at ya. ;)
biopowered.co.uk - catalytically cracking triglycerides for home automotive use since 2008. Just say no to big oil!
dumb... voltage isn't what kills you, current is. Otherwise everytime you shocked someone with static electricity (thousands of volts) you'd kill them. I'm sure there's enough current in the hybrid cars to kill you but still, saying the high voltage will is just not right.
I have heard from my friends in the automotive industry (take that vague description FWIW) that the trend is for all vehicles, not just hybrid and electric vehicles, to move towards drive-by-wire systems over the next ten years or so. So any rescue problems that a Prius will have, so could any other motor vehicle. This isn't going to stop me from buying a Prius or Civic Hybrid next time I'm in the market for a car.
If I correctly remember high-school physics (30 years ago), Energy = Voltage * Current and Power = Energy / Time. I cannot remember what Voltage * Current * Time is.
If VISTA is the answer, you didn't understand the question
Don't cut into the gas tank, don't cut into the battery either.
If only it was completely electric, then the greatest danger of all (gasoline spilling and igniting or exploding) would be eliminated. And an impact switch can isolate the battery pack in case of collision. But, they just keep making foreign-oil-dependent bombs on wheels for us to drive around in. (as well as deploying other kinds of bombs in other places to maintain our oil supply)
Do we need such NEGATIVE attitudes around here? I'm sure we all have that CAPACITY.
That's right. All your base.
Apparently not as much of a nerd as you'd like to think, since you forgot to factor in frequency and duration.
;)
I didn't have time to include freq. and duration, this dumbass is still "doing the math!"
High currents can be passed through (over) the human body at higher frequency a) because they tend to travel over the surface of the body and b) because the nervous system is less likely to react to frequencies 100Hz and upwards.
okay, but if we aren't getting any AC from the engine we're left with DC from the battery. So I wasn't factoring in frequency.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
Really, that would be sweet.
That's right. All your base.
I invoke the Kirchoff Voltage Law and declare this pun-ful thread to be dead.
Is there any resistance to this idea?
-Cyc
/.'s 10 Millionth
Yeah, I bought a new car recently with side impact airbags. I was driving down the interstate last week and *whammo* the passenger side airbag went off. Completely at random.
I know you are being funny here, so I'm not trying to incite some kind of war. However, I used to work as a service line technician for a dealership a few years back, when air bags were still relatively new. Most dealerships, you see, have big metal tables to throw those couple hundred pound transmissions up on and leak oil all over without hurting anything.
We had all kinds of procedures we had to follow, had these anti-static "towels" that we'd wrap around the air bag, etc, etc. That didn't keep some of them going off, though. Whether they weren't wrapped properly, or the early ones were really skittish, who knows at this point. Sounded like guns going off, and if you've never been in an accident (thank the Lord) and witnessed one of these up close, take my word for it. These things are pretty scary.
Luckily, at least while I was with that dealership, no one was hurt by them. Just startled out of our mind ..... one of them caused a fire once, but that's an entirely different story involving an acetalane torch, exhaust work, and a nearby fuel line. So we'll just save that one for another day.
"Genius may shine aloof and alone, like a star, but goodness is social, and it takes two men and God to make a Brother."
power = voltage * current
energy = power * time
Fair enough! :)
I also remember reading somewhere that if you received a shock horizontally across your body (IE arm-to-arm), you were 60% more likely to die than if it was vertically (IE head-to-feet), though I have no references to back this up.
biopowered.co.uk - catalytically cracking triglycerides for home automotive use since 2008. Just say no to big oil!
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Its something like that. arm-arm current will pass thru the heart and stop it. arm-leg current will just cook your arm and leg.
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
There is no acid in Nickel Metal Hydride - it's a alkaline base. You must throw acid on it to neutralize it.
. pd f
Read:
http://techinfo.toyota.com/public/main/2ndprius
for more info.
Personally I think this article is a bunch of crap. Then again, I own two Prius, and have read all the pertinent docs to understand that Toyota has designed one hell of a car - including many failsafes to prevent injury to rescue workers in the event of an accident. The author simply hasn't done the research to understand what the real risks are.
$ man woman *
-bash:
I don't know about the price of diesel where you live, but around here it's $2.45 a gallon -- that's 30 cents more than regular unleaded.
The Cellphones at gas stations myth is not a myth. Vibrating cell phones DO put out sparks which CAN cause fires.
:) lol
BUT I would be more afraid of the people who get back IN their cars while fueling.
That is THE perfect way to get a nice static charge to zap that fuel handle.
And if that doesnt.. im sure a exploding nokia battery would
I stand corrected. Thank you.
GO LEAFS GO!!!!
If VISTA is the answer, you didn't understand the question
The "Giant Battery" in the original Prius was pretty small, not much bigger than two or three standard car batteries (depends on what you drive). I believe the battery in the new Prius is even smaller. And it's not a micro-car-- it's roughly the same size as the new honda accords. Small battery, average-sized sedan.
It wouldn't be a big deal for a rescue crew to just pull it out before they cut anywhere else, making sure the power is cut. Probably a good idea with a normal battery in a wreck that bad, on the off chance that a spark would ignite any gas vapour.
I would suggest that the government standardize a location for a cutoff switch, though, making this sort of thing easy and painless for rescue crews. No such thing exists for fuel lines (except in race cars) but that hasn't stopped us from driving.
By the same token, high-pressure hydrogen is not as big of a deal as most people are assuming, either. Crack the tank, and where does the hydrogen go? Up, quickly. It doesn't linger around at ground level, or pool under or inside the car like gasoline.
In general, cars are large, dangerous machines. They involve hundreds of thousands of watts of power, and nothing you can ever do will make handling that sort of power perfectly safe, whether the power is sitting still in a gasoline tank, a large battery, or a hydrogen cannister; or converted to kinetic and thermal energy in the form of a two-ton metal box moving at high velocity and a large steel engine block filled with blistering-hot oil and coolant. Better driver training standards and enforcement (why so many speeding tickets, but so few tickets for unsignalled lane changes?) in America would go farther than anything else.
You can have a battery of 6 volt 1 ampere and one with 500 volt 40 mA... They simply would not have the same puissance. And, if forced, I would rather touch the second...
You'd rather touch the one that could kill you instead of the one that wouldn't hurt much even if you licked it?
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
I'm an ELECTRIC car. I don't go very fast or very far, and when folks see you driving me, they'll think you're gay.
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Did anyone else wonder why is there serious power in the doors? Do you need 500V for the electric windows? From the article: "They know not to cut into a hybrid's doors -- that's where many of the cables are -- and to peel off the roof instead."
These vehicles look exactly like their conventional counterparts:
2005 Ford Escape
2005 Lexus RX400h
2005 Toyota Highlander
2004 Honda Accord
2004 Honda Civic (available now)
And of course, there's the Prius. One of my neighbours has one and it looks a hell of a lot less ugly in person than it appears in photos. Although I'd still not want one because my main reaction is: worst cockpit & instrumentation ever. Not only do I hate the center-mounted gauges, I think they're extremely dangerous not being in front of the driver:
2004 Toyota Prius (available now)
I can't be bothered researching, but this guy /could/ be performing some sort of troll experiment.
My students and I tried to create sparks due to the rf field of a radio transmitter similar to a cell phone. Couldn't do it.
Any electric motor in a car has brushes and can generate plentiful sparks. What we need is a warning about not using our windshield wipers.
(For the sarcasm challenged - No I'm not being serious about the wipers.)
It sucks that new procedures are necessary, but we've now had an EMT and a FF both testify that there are lots of ways for a totalled car to injure the rescuers. So they're already alert and aware that there may be dangers, and the first Prius to get totalled won't be a total, erm, shock to them.
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
I was working on a car powered by nitro-glycerin. It runs great, but blows up a city block if you get into accident. I originally deemed this as a feature. A sort of deterrent against tailgating. Better re-evaluate...
Did you hear? There are conveyances that carry TOXIC, FLAMMABLE fuel in LARGE TANKS and in HOSES from the tank to the engine!!! If the conveyances get hit, there could be an EXPLOSION!! If I'm in an accident, I'll make sure that any responders are wearing fireproof hazmat suits, and if any cutting is done, the roof is the only area they touch!
Yeah, right.
Toyota isn't taking this one sitting down.
Toyota Press Release
Toyota Prius Engine Safety in the Event of an Accident
For Immediate Release
(05/04/2004) Torrance, CA
The Toyota Prius gas-electric hybrid vehicle has many safeguards to help ensure safe operation for drivers and protection of emergency response professionals in the event of an accident. The high voltage batteries are contained in an extremely strong protective case located in a portion of the vehicle very unlikely to be penetrated in a collision. Drivetrain management computers continuously monitor all system functions performing hundreds of tests each minute. In the event an abnormal condition is detected, all high voltage circuits are disabled and high voltage is contained inside the protective case.
Further, two safety mechanisms are in place that shut off the engine and disconnect high voltage if an airbag is deployed or if there is a sudden deceleration indicative of an accident. High voltage cables and components are heavily insulated, shielded, isolated and the cables are painted bright orange for easy identification. The controller box is a sealed unit and has warning labels.
To reassure emergency response professionals when the Prius was introduced in 2000, Toyota placed advertisements in trade publications and sent letters to industry organizations announcing the availability and dissemination of Emergency Response Guides. Today, all Emergency Response Guides for Toyota's alternative fuel vehicles, including Prius, RAV 4 EV, CNG Camry and Highlander Fuel Cell Hybrid are available at Toyota's technical information web site and Toyota continues to advertise in appropriate professional publications.
Electrically driven Toyota vehicles like the Prius, RAV 4 EV and e.com have been available in the U.S. since 1998. Like all vehicles, they can be involved in emergency situations. They have established a good track record for electrical safety and we are not aware of a battery case breach or any personal injury in the U.S. related to hybrid or EV electrical systems.
# # #
Contact:
Toyota Product News
Apparently Toyota is pretty protective of it's technology.
$ man woman *
-bash:
Its the volts that jolt, the mils that kill.
...
Easy demonstration. Ever been shocked by a car's ignition system (plug leads) while tracing a fault ? I can't recommend it for fun, but that's 10-35KV potential right there. It smarts a bit, but since the current is limited theere's no harm done.
In fact the biggest danger is from banging your head on the underside of the bonnet (hood) while yelling 'fuckity fuck'
Hopefully won't be.
My dept. has rep from Hurst come by yearly to let us know what ways of killing us the auto companies have come up with next. Then we spend an evening tearing up cars. Not a bad night, it's normally pretty fun.
But the key is that we try to stay very aware of what's in the newest cars, and even sometimes a few of us will go a dealership to look at the new models, and take a look at the key things we need to keep an eye out for.
While the new technologies have made a greater chance of surviving the wreck, they've also increased the time that you're likely to be stuck in the car if we need to go cutting.
My favorite so far are the polycarbonate windows. They don't shatter in an accident, and they compress and store energy, waiting like a coiled spring. Hit them with a sledge hammer and they won't break. But start cutting into the roof, and they try to launch the roof off the car if they've been compressed and bent.
Also fun is the poor guy who rolls his bmw 745, has some minor dents/scratches in the roof, but can't get it out (doors won't unlock). However, we can't shatter out the windows, so we have to tear off the doors. Instead of just replacing the glass, the car is likely totaled by insurance.
Yeah. Right. ... 'Cause ya know, regular, traditional cars are like so totally safe. They've got a combustible source and potentially sprakable metal everywhere. Let's not forget the battery acid, and various other noxious chemicals that could be in the engine. Man, sounds super safe to me.
Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the hybrids don't pose a new and different danger--I suspect they do. But I sense a lot of fearmongering in the article that I find annoying.
Furry cows moo and decompress.
Star ratings are a fairly inaccurate way of measuring the safety of a vehicle. They only apply to a collision with a fixed object. In a collision between two vehicles, the more massive one will suffer less damage, all other things being equal. Hybrids are at the very low end of the mass spectrum for vehicles (with mass being an enemy of fuel efficiency) so they will likely be the loser in any collision with another vehicle.
1 - the path through the body is the key - if it passes through the heart at some level (low mA) you can/will/do get V-fib (VF)
2 - you must have voltage to get to the heart - less than 80 will seldom do it, but this depends on skin moisture and pH, how much water you have on board, do you drink Gatorade or just sweat alot...
3 - high-current electrocutions do kill people, because you don't get this high current instantly or constantly - imagine 2 A, followed by a trailing off to 80 mA - gotcha.
4 - Gauss plays some role - if your skin carries the current because it is wet or otherwise highly ocnductive, you may feel a shock at a lower voltage, but no cardiac issues (except fright).
5 - Cars are running on DC, which requires that you basically make contact with two dissimilarly polarized surfaces - it cannot ground to the earth - old electronics technicians only use one hand for this reason.
Stick a 9-volt on your tongue and tell us about it.
Faith is the very antithesis of reason, injudiciousness a critical component of spiritual devotion. Jon Krakauer
Rubber gloves aren't sufficient for at least two reasons.
First, in order to treat a patient, the EMT often has to enter the car, lean over it, lean on it, etc. Therefore, they end up touching the car with their hands, their knees, arms, side, etc. We have enough fun just avoiding broken glass, sharp surfaces, etc, especially when you consider that broken glass, etc, can be touched without injuring you as long as you are careful. With live electricity, any contact is sufficient.
Second, it isn't a simple pair of latex gloves. The gloves referred to here are THICK rubber gloves, designed to serve as electrical insulators. Those might be fine for firefighters, but not for EMT's. Compare the typical firefighter's protective gear to an EMT's. Firefighting equipment is designed to be used by people in heavy protective gear. Unfortunately, EMTs work on people, and we can't easily redesign people to be easier to work on in heavy protective gear. It would be very difficult to take a pulse, palpate for injuries, or start an IV (feeling for the veins) in thick gloves. In fact, even the usual latex gloves are often annoying, though necessary.
It is difficult, but possible, to have the electric motor run out of juice.
Flooring the thing for a few miles would probably do it. I remember taking the bugger to 100 and that engine was working way too hard to fuel the electric battery.
The one time I ran out of juice from normal usage was going through Western New Mexico to Albuquerque with no stops. There is a long incline going into the city after a slight incline over the whole trip. The car wasn't ready for it and had to slow down to 55.
Yes, that motor is only good enough to keep you sustained at 55 by itself.
(Note: I still heartily reccomend the car for most everyone, and the 2004 model has a higher HP gas engine so I'm sure the problem isn't pronounced.)
About time those mice got back to business. Now to get the rats of NIMH employed again.
It seems there's a lot of opinions on how dangerous it is slicing up a hybrid. From the stuff so far, I can't tell which way the average goes, but I still want the Prius :)
Anyway, I DO wonder how new designs/ideas on the road (and in the air one day!) are gonna be dealt with by rescue personel. It looks like as we get more ideas under our belt, this is going to be a trend. Is there going to eb a technical expert on each team who can guess how to slice a car? Is there going to be some standards or patterns that will emerge over time? (i.e. fuel cells look like this and are usually here....) I'd hope that in the future there are all kinds of designs moving us about, but is that going to make it impossible to have a general group of people standing by who can help?
AB HOC POSSUM VIDERE DOMUM TUUM
...and when you step on the brakes, the sound of a dessicated skull being crushed beneath the titanium foot of a T-1000.
Or how about that droning sound the Recognizers in Tron make?
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
Ohm my, that was bad. But then I'm a glutton for punishment- I'm just asking for moh.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
"now would you please hold still and shut up!"
Somehow, that doesn't work well on first dates.
Absolutely right. Body path is the real key - the values given there were mostly (I suspect) wrt to direct application to the heart. At least I hope so, I've received a lot of shocks at 12-24v+ & 200ma+ and gotten little other than a tingle. I've also been 110'ed a few times and a couple higher, but not cross body thank Bog! :) although one 220 across my hand left me with a couple nice burn scars, and hurt worse later on than at the time.
:) Good thing I was pretty young, probably would kill me nowadays...
Actually the worst one I ever received was cross-body ?v at ?mA - from the spark plug wires on an older truck when I brushed my forearm against a couple wires - I was soaked to the skin, playing with the carburetor settings on an old Dodge truck. The plug wires were also soaked. Didn't knock me down but it hurt like hell for a second or so until my arm lost contact with the wires. The only place I was "grounded" was my other forearm resting on the edge of the engine compartment. Slight burns in both places where my bare arms were touching.
That one sucked a lot more than the couple of 110v I got. I went inside and quite literally had the twitches for a while. There is no sensation that is even slightly like it. In hindsight later that night I realized I should have known that the slight glow around the wiring was arcing along the wires due to the rain coating them. Those buggers have a lot of voltage running thru them. Learned a good lesson there, I did.
Long time ago, but I can still remember how much that one hurt...moral of the story is, don't fuck around a open engine compartment with the motor running when you and it are both soaked by rain
Don't tell me I'm a lucky bastard, I know it already...
SB
It's old. The more humans I meet, the more I like my cats. At least they are honest.
The chance of irregular heartbeat following electrocution is something like double the norm for 72 hours post shock for common voltage/amp combinations. Until the HMOs got involved, it was not uncommon to be hospitalized for 1-3 days following even relatively minor (110 VAC) experiences when the victim/patient had symptoms like muscle contracture.
Like almost everything doctors do, it was based on (bad) experiences "he's fine, send him home." D'oh.
Faith is the very antithesis of reason, injudiciousness a critical component of spiritual devotion. Jon Krakauer
I don't care how loud your sportsbike is, it can't be as annoying as a two-stroke racing engine. Unless the sportsbike you're talking about is a Aprilia RS250, that is...
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Can't you cut though polycarbonate things? First drill a hole, then cut it up. This should work for cases when polycarbonate is not under extreme tension.
NiMH batteries use potassium hydroxide (alkalai) electrolyte, not sulphuric acid. Treating a broken NiMH battery as an acid spill is exactly the wrong thing to do! This is yet another thing the rescue crews must be aware of.
I already got a 40ma in the right arm and got truly shocked and had some titellement in the heart or suchlike but certainly "I ain't dead". At least until somebody ask me to stop typing on my PC and to stay still like every other dead. Yes i am sarcastic here.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Second, it isn't a simple pair of latex gloves.
No. Those are for the after party.
But after an accident, any part of the wiring harness could be energized relative to the frame -- you just don't know, for example, if the dome light circuit is going to happen to be connected to the same bank of circuits that were smushed into the Big Orange Cable in a front-quarter collision that also happened to damage the fail-safe circuit breakers.
Troll or FUD, I'm not sure, but I'll bite. The dome light circuit goes from under the dash and up. The big orange cables go under the floor in conduit. This is like saying don't touch your metal case toaster in the morning because a car might crash into a utility pole putting thousands of volts on your toaster. True, it could happen. It's happening is very rare and mostly improbable. The high voltage when tangled into low voltage tends to blow circit protection devices very quickly resulting in a blackout. The Prius is no different in this regard. High voltage high current into low voltage circuits woud quickly burn away only if the high voltage protection failed to operate. Cutting into a grounded metal roof and hitting a dome light wire with the high voltage on it would provide a fault current high enough to vaporise the small gauge wire in a split second. Other than a suprising flash and puff of smoke, the operator of the cutting tool (grounded to the roof being cut) would only wonder what went pop. Anything that tore up the car enough to tangel the high voltage wire and the dome light wouldn't need cutting tools to enter anyway. It would already be open.
The truth shall set you free!
First off, I am an engineer and have studied the Prius quite a bit. High Voltage safety on production hybrid/electric vehicles is great. First off, 500 volts is absolutely wrong, the battery pack in the Prius runs at a hair over 200 volts. Second, no high voltage wiring is run in the doors or roof or anywhere besides under the undercarriage of the vehicle between the packs and the inverters. Third, there are main cutoff relays located inside the battery boxes that are hooked to an inertial switch that will disable any voltage coming from the boxes if an impact is detected. This is the same switch that kills your fuel pump if you get into a wreck. Fourth, the high voltage pack is completely isolated from the vehicle's chassis, unlike the 12-volt system which has one side attached to the frame. What this means is should through a near-impossible combination of events one of the leads get cut into the frame and become energized, it would be impossible for you to complete a circuit and get shocked because the other end is still isolated. (houshold wiring can shock you because your feet complete a circuit through the earth, but this isn't the case in a vehicle!) If both ends of the pack were to connect to the frame, the fuse built into the pack would blow from the short-circuit. The only real danger is from a ruptured battery pack itself, but that's pretty easy to spot. Nothing to see here, move along.
Since somebody already modded the crack-smoking troll he's responding to.
Yeah, the heavy hydraulic cutters go right through them, if you can get an edge between the jaws to start with.
We actually don't have drills with us (haven't needed them). And in the time to drill, and mess with a potentially heavily compressed window, I can just pull the doors off. It's really quite easy, with the right tools, and the right placement.
Squeeze a little here, little there, then stick the tips of the spreaders in, and open wide. VERY fast once you've done it a couple times.
I drive a hybrid and SUV's scare me in an entirly different fashion from that stated here.
I fear that our dependence on oil to fuel these beasts has us in bed with lots of unsavory folks and that the greatest danger posed by SUV's is the support and motivation they give to Osama and his associates.
Thank you very much.
Run like hell!
55mpg for $21K? Some kind of joke, surely? haven't the people who buy these things looked at the diesel VW Lupo? Much the same mileage for half the money and a lot less complexity.
" As an EE, I would expect that the electrical system is designed to be as well protected and fail-safe as possible in an accident, but if I'm ever in an accident, I'll make sure that any responders are wearing rubber gloves and boots and if any cutting is done, the roof is the only area they touch."
This is one of the most naive statements that I have ever read. - Hey guys don't do anything untill you change your leather boots, helment and gloves to rubber. But my femor is sticking out my leg so hurry.
My credentials - EE, 16+ years volunteer FF, EMT and a State Fire Instructor. The current trend in vehicle design is to achieve greater and greater fuel economy, while adding more elaborate features to draw the customers in. Vehicle manufactures are designing to encapsulate the passengers within the passenger compartment, frontal airbags, airbag curtains, laminated glass for all the windows, and crumble zones to lessen the impingement of vehicle around the passengers. A vehicle can have up to 34 airbags.
After being awaken from your well earned slumber at 0300 on a cold raining night with the car over a hillside the last think you can remember is, the number and location of batteries, the number and location of all the air bags. Have all the air bags activated or are they controlled by some outside mechanism, dash switch, seat switch, etc. Should you trust the lock out mechanism. How long will it take after the battery is disconnected, if you can locate or reach the battery, to discharge the airbag capacitors? Other issues are the location of high pressure A/C lines and seat belt pretensioners in the roof pillars.
The need for speed to extricate a victim is paramount. Disentangle can take a lot skill and training or can be a simple task. "New and Improved" safety features will always pose a challenge to rescuers, but just like the advent of the Nader pin, which brought around the advent of hydraulic rescue tools rescues will find new tools to do the job.
http://www.holmatro-usa.com/notify.htm
Cell phones do not cause gas to ignite. The "Mythbusters" TV show even attempted to ignite gas with a cell phone, and were completely unsuccessful, even when they rigged the test setup to favor combustion.
And why do you specify vibrating phones? The vibrators are just small brushless DC motors with unbalanced weights on the shaft. No extra risk there.
Just wait for cars with hydrogen tanks!
Reminds me of the college kids who like to play with radiation warning labels
My father-in-law is an M.D at a local hospital. He brings home biohazard ziploc bags for my mother-in-law to use. She often sends us home with tasty leftovers in those bags. They tend to freak out our houseguests.
I highly recommend you take a look at this article: http://www.gladwell.com/2004/2004_01_12_a_suv.html .
It's unlikely that you will because you seem like the type that doesn't like his assumptions challenged in the name of pride (another typically American trait). However, you would discover that SUVs are not safer than other cars and they constitute a shift from placing responsibility on the skill of the driver to be safe onto the equipment and the chance provided by the environment. In other words, an SUV is another affort to be lazy and irresponsible with the lives of others. That is not speaking at all for the resources they consume.
What I find most amusing is that the execuatives of car manufacturers that make SUVs mock the customers who buy them.
Join Tor today!
That works good in theory, however, you no longer know what the circuit looks like in a wrecked car. Things have been moved, crushed, crimped, twisted, etc. For example, airbags should deploy after an accident, but during. However, there have been numerous rescue personnel that have been hurt by airbags that deployed during the rescue. Also, you may or may not be able to cut the ignition.
To put it briefly, loud pipes do not save lives. It is a myth. Mostly, they just piss people off.
Loud pipes can kill you; "excessive noise may be fatiguing to riders, making them less able to enjoy riding and less able to exercise good riding skills." My major complaint is that they aren't dangerous enough to either refute the myth or get rid of the obnoxious assholes who believe it (or act as if they do) fast enough to make the roads quiet enough to live by.
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
Ahh yes the good ole "I know an article you wont read because you are arrogant" ploy. Nice try, no not really; just standard staple for trolls. Unfortunately for you, and fortunately for those interested in reality, I read the article. Apparently you did not.
...
And now, the reaility not stated in the article you posted.
Fact: Honda Pilot is an SUV.
Fact: It is one of the safest vehicles to be in according to the crash tests at NHTSA. http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/NCAP/Cars/2810.html
In fact it is pretty much as good as the civic: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/NCAP/Cars/2802.html
Note that on some indicators it is better than a civic.
Oh and the Honda CR-V is likewise a 5-star rated vehicle.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/NCAP/Cars/2806. html
And one more Honda SUV:
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/NCAP/Cars/2806.html
Again, 5 star rated vehicles, pal. There are little econo-boxes that don't do this well. These all do as well as Honda's minivan the Odyssey, and Honda's Civic.
But we don't want to talk about those facts, do we? Hell no that would show that our rage against others may well be wrong.
Is it only Honda? Nope.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/NCAP/Cars/2667.htm l
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/NCAP/Cars/2638.html
h ttp://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/NCAP/Cars/2683.html
In fact, the Blazer and Trailblazer get 4 and 5 stars for passenger side impacts. And some of their danger factors are even better than a Civic.
We certainly don't want to talk about how the 04 Durango is scoring 5 stars in it's tests so far. Instead we just want to say they aren't safe.
And heaven forbid we point out that the Prius has a higher chance of head injury than a Cadillac SUV, or that the Prius has a thoracic trauma index higher than that same Caddy SUV. Heaven forbid you actually look at the test you claim say SUVs are less safe.
Measuring accident avoidance is a key part of the Consumers Union evaluation. It's a simple setup. The driver has to navigate his vehicle through two rows of cones eight feet wide and sixty feet long. Then he has to steer hard to the left, guiding the vehicle through a gate set off to the side, and immediately swerve hard back to the right, and enter a second sixty-foot corridor of cones that are parallel to the first set. The idea is to see how fast you can drive through the course without knocking over any cones.
I do that alot, I autocross. Which makes me infinitely more qualified than the former Engineer they used. Let us look at how he did it, shall we?
"Suddenly, a kid on a bicycle veers out in front of you. You have to do whatever it takes to avoid the kid. But there's a tractor-trailer coming toward you in the other lane, so you've got to swing back into your own lane as quickly as possible. That's the scenario."
Where I live, tractor trailers are not allowed into the subdivisions, and kids don't ride bicycles on the heavy traffic roads that 18 wheelers do drive on. And if they do, the 18wheeler will be taking evasive manuevers as will the kid on the the bike, etc. But maybe in his world they do drive together and the only one reacting is him. AND of course if you can't handle this situation YOU are driving too fast. So
Champion and I put on helmets. He accelerated toward the entrance to the obstacle course. "We do the test without brakes or throttle, so we can just look at handling,"
Furst call of bullshit. All vehicles are designed to handle turning manuevers under vary parts of throttle and/or brake. You drive a Corvette through a course that way and it will feel less agile and more vague. Why? It isn't designed to coast through a slalom. And most people won't coast through a slalom in real life. They will either be applying brake or throttle. I know, I watch it every month.
If you want to test just the car, you put an expert in the car. If you want to test pe
My Suburban burns less gasoline than your Prius.
...and I can see in your vision, that electric car welding itself to another electric car, then colliding with a nuclear reactor, and mutating into a Voltron.
The sooner we're all driving electric cars, the better the chance that some day we will have Voltrons to protect us from the forces of evil.
"We have to go forth and crush every world view that doesn't believe in tolerance and free speech." - David Brin
Frequently, when I am in fire houses, I read magazines tailored to the professional rescuer. Within the past year, I've read an article on how to open the Toyota Prius, which gave specific points of the chassis where it was, and was not, safe to open with power tools. I can't speak to the engineers and what they thought, "when designing vehicles, how much, if any, thought is given to the safety of everyone involved *after* an accident?" However, North America's rescue community has given a lot of thought to the subject.
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