Slashdot Mirror
42-Volt Autos
brianlmoon writes "Car Audio Electronics Magazine has a story about the auto industry switching to 36/42-Volt systems starting in 2004 and being completely switched by 2020. The demand for luxuries in cars has grown to where 12/14-Volts is just simply not enough. The automotive sound enthusiasts are going to benefit greatly as amplification will be much easier and cleaner with 3 times the voltage availble. Mobile computing will also benefit: "One of the real benefits of jumping to 42-volt systems, especially for hybrid vehicles, is the ability of the vehicle to offer regular 110-volt electrical outlets". It seems cars will have dual systems for a while for legacy equipment."
Can't wait to see what these new batteries are going to cost...
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
This news is positively shocking!
If they had chosen -56/48 VDC systems, cars would be compatible with Telco systems.
I remember hearing that from a commercial back in the early 50's...
Never create an artificial ceiling.. as it will be exceeded.. always.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
It should cost 3 times as much, but with an extra cost for predicted inflation, the effects of actual inflation, the cost for the extra outlets, and some extra $$ just to confuse you, they will end up costing 9 times as much as a normal battery.
Most car drivers I see don't pay enough attention on the road as it is, and that's without the ability to plug in household applicances. Multi-car pileups because someone was checking their email or pr0n?
I already power my laptop in my car using a AC/DC power inverter. Works great!
but don't some BMW/Hummer/Lexus and some other luxury and european vehicles already use at least 24volt?
Does this mean if my new car has a 42v system and the car battery dies and leaves me stranded out in BFE, I have to wait for another 42v car to come by before I can get a jump? That would suck.
Sure it mentions Hybrids in there but we all know that it is the "luxury" cars driving these changes, larger power-supplies will require more power to charge, which in turn requires more fuel.
So excuse me if I don't "welcome" this so someone can have an even louder stereo while pumping even more chemicals into the atmosphere. So we can have 110v power supplies so... so what ? So a "busy exec" can have an even large mobile office ? So Ted and Rhona in the back can have a Playstation 2 each ?
I would say that goverments should be introducing regulations to reduce fuel emissions... but somehow in the country where this will be plonked into Canyenero style SUVs I doubt that the Oil President will concern himself with more fuel being used.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
Why 42 volts? The first thing that comes up is how to convert it to 110V AC! Methinks the battery manufacturers are pushing for this mediocre solution in order to ensure that plenty of new batteries get on the market before replacing those yet again with a better standard. I tell ya, somewhere, there's warehouses full of soon to be obsolete batteries, and they're all going to waste.
Of course, in the unlikely event that exactly the opposite happens, and we experience a shortage of 12 V batteries, Just get in touch with me because I happen to have saved a few hundred of them from going to the junkyard and will be selling them at a modest profit.
What transparent commercialism you say... Indeed! Fight the establishment!
Note to self... buy stock in 60-Volt battery jump-start kits and AAA.
Hammer of Truth
to power hungry these days.
btw. remember to switch of that 250watt monitor when you leave your desk for a coffee break (if you have a LCD, do the same).
My neighborhood already rocks with jackasses with 3,000 watt sound systems in their cars. Just what we need, 12,000 watt sound systems at 3 in the morning.
Everybody knows that the answer is 42...
volts...
Opinionated Law Student Strikes Again!
What's "regular" about 110 Volts?
If 36V is better than 12V, 230V surely must be better than 110.
of course, its because 42 is the answer to life, the universe, and everything!
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
Now I can have 2 blue lights under my D-reg Ford Escort!
This will be really nice when I find myself needing a jump... now I'll need three or four 12v batteries daisy chained to do a jumpstart.
Not to mention the other downsides (easier to get shocked from 36+ volts, easier for the electrical system to fry itself in a flood situation, etc).
Is it just me, or is the automotive industry quickly moving to purely disposable/recycleable cars? When I look at a 2003 model car, I have a hard time picturing it still running and still together in 15 years. Really makes me wonder what a 2010 model car will be like.
I was always under the impression that clean amplification had to do with a clean, stable power source, not high voltage. Also, why does voltage matter for more power-hungry electronics? Amperage is the measure of load. Homes have exponentially increased power comsumption, yet the answer has been higer amperage wiring, not extensive high-voltage circuits. Finally, how does 42V DC convert much easier to 120V AC? Don't you still have to use an inverter?
On of the great things about 12V car systems - that (except for the coils and spark circut)is almost impossible to kill yourself electrically when you tinker with your car.
42 vols can kill you though - it can easily jump across wet skin.
Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.
Way cool. One of the arguments that the Big Three automakers have been offering for why they don't make ultra-efficient ICE SUVs is that they require more expensive high voltage electrical systems. That's also one reason (albit a minor one) why gas-electric hybrids are so expensive.
Car manufacturers have said that it is more expensive for them if their product line has to have two different types of electrical systems. If high voltage electrical systems are going to be standard equipment, though, that argument will disappear.
"Weapons should be hardy rather than decorative" - Miyamoto Musashi
I think that goes for OS's too
I for one am waiting for the day I can run my "industrial sized" vacuum cleaner in my little Mitsubishi Lancer to get rid of those stubborn dust mites in the carpet.
Wow, the car audio enthusiast will be basking in tons of kilowatts of power, but 2020 is a ways away... will they really need all those subwoofers and amplifiers once the rap trend fades out?
Oh great, now instead of merely shaking the earth as they drive by, cars with souped up stereo systems will be able to actually crack the pavement and lift small dogs several inches off the ground.
Humorless sig goes here.
Why exactly is the ability to attach more electrical crap to my car a good thing?
Oh, I know... It's so I can check my email, sip my Vente Latte, talk on the phone, keep my McMuffin warm all while driving.
Woo Hoo! I am so glad I will be able to do that. I hate it when I get distracted by driving.
Blocklevel: Practical Information Architecture
Saw this one coming when we bought a new car for my wife and it had a water cooled alternator!
Her car has more luxuries and gizmos than any of our previous cars: Navagation System, Universal Garage Door Opener, 11-speaker sound system w/ DSP, CD Changer, Rear hatch auto-closer (close hatch the last inch), 8 airbags, 16-way power seats, rear wiper arm, etc.. bla.. bla.. bla... and so on..
I talked to my mechanic about it and they already knew the 42-volt systems were coming. They said 42-volts was chosen to avoid amperages that would harm humans while providing enough capacity for all the stuff being piled onto the latest models.
It's a small miracle that the battery drain if the car isn't driven every day....
Check it out. Just $20 or so. Radioshack sells an adaptor but it's $99. Fucking rip-off artists. There are a couple of cars out today that have 110VAC outlets already.
One of the main advantages of the 42 volt system is that you can have electronic, rather then hydrolic brakes.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Anonymous Coward moderates YOU!
REDUNDANT AC declares post redundant.
news for nerds, stuff that matters.
but only as legacy from being military vehicles, 24 volt systems ae needed to crank some of the old and new massive diesil engines in the transport trucks ect. the hummer has the 24 volt system so that it can jump start(or in military terms slave start)a tractor trailor.
since some military trucks spend a lot of time sitting and not driving this happens more than you might wish to think
I used to have a cool sig, back when I cared
It seems cars will have dual systems for a while for legacy equipment."
My late Ford Pinto isn't legacy equipment, you insensitive clod!
You can always convert one voltage to another though, it just entails a little bit of loss. Besides, you'd still have to take down the voltage for sensitive equipment anyway. You wouldn't want to run a modern CPU on 42 volts, that's for sure :P
It's only an optimization point. If you have a lot of low-voltage devices, you want a low voltage PS, and the same for high-voltage.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
The only problem I see with this is that a 12V system cannot self sustain an arc while a 42V system easily can. If a 42V car gets in an accident, the higher voltage system may present a problem for emergency workers as they could receive a nasty electric shock while trying to open the car up to get the passengers out.
Except I don't drive it, I have a chauffer who does it for me, there are also lots of other people who share the same chauffer
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
The automotive sound enthusiasts are going to benefit greatly as amplification will be much easier and cleaner with 3 times the voltage availble.
Say goodbye to your peaceful, tranquil suburban paradise once the boomers get a hold of one of the supercharged amplifiers made possible by the increased voltage... sheesh, it's loud enough in my apartment complex already!
Higher voltage systems are less affected by corroded contacts and connections.
Higher voltage systems allow physically smaller fuses for the same power handling.
All of these allow cheaper cabling, connectors, fusing, etc.
NetInfo connection failed for server 127.0.0.1/local
After all, 42 IS the answer to life, the universe and everything!
Suncoast Linux - Sarasota, FL
A 42-volt system will slash weight
...
... Okay, when the switch to 42V is made, then everything will supposedly be peachy. But that's not tomorrow : there are still cars around with 6V batteries, or negative hot, *today* while those standards are supposed to be long dead.
...
Where ? 12V lead/acid batteries have 6 elements, 42V batteries would have 21. That's 21 lead plates and associated acid cell. The only thing that would be lighter would wire harnesses, because the wires would be lower-gauge wiring since they wouldn't have to transport as much current. I can't see that being a real weight economy.
improve fuel economy
How ? do 42V alternators have a better efficiency than 12V ones ? And even if that was the case, wouldn't, say, driving the alternator with something else than a rubber belt improve efficiency much more dramatically ?
permit the replacement of many mechanical parts with electrical ones
How ? what are the mechanical parts that can't be replaced by 12V electrical equivalents that could be replaced by 42V ones ?
power all sorts of new gizmos like seat heaters, video, etc,
I can't wait to see cars with seat heaters or video units
and, of most concern to us, improve efficiency for all automotive electrical devices
I don't know about overall efficiency, but in all fairness, that's true : it's easier to step the voltage down than up. So yes, many devices would become lighter, cheaper and probably more efficient.
opening the door to higher audio amplifier power with far less complexity than the current crop of 12-volt, high-power amplifiers. Not only can will this translate to lower cost and more compact aftermarket power amps, even head units could cheaply integrate 100-plus RMS watts per channel power.
That's about the only application where I can see a 42V system be useful.
All I see in that "improvement" is trouble, exactly like when cars switched from 6V to 12V, and more money to aftermarket accessory makes. For many years, you'll have dual-voltage devices (complicated and defeating the purpose of having a higher voltage in the car) that will be more expensive and heavier, you'll have to buy another cell phone charger, power-supply, CB and whatnot, you'll have to use voltage converters, people without a clue will plug 12V devices in 42V cars, giving more money to garages,
In short, a half-load of technical shit, trouble for everybody and a lot of money for the automotive industry
"A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
...thanks to this fabulous new invention!
They would focus on making safer cars first rather than any others. By safer I mean (a) cars that will not hurt other people on the road or damage other cars in a (any type of) collision and (b) cars that will not cause/contribute to pollution. But so long as greed and money rule the earth, people will continue to be stupid.
He was charged with battery!
As if I wasn't already paranoid enough using humonguous high-gauge jumper cables...
I have a Pontiac Vibe, and it has a (non-grounded) 115 volt outlet in the dashboard. Just push a button to turn it on, plug in and voila. Now all I need is a GPS I can plug into my laptop and some map software.
Make me a friend and I'll mod you up
It's because we use more power in the cars today. It's not just for lights and the engine anymore. Take a look at all the things that are put into cars today. 12v is a problem and you have to run thick cables to all these things. It is not very practical anymore. Fx some cars have eletric AC (for non-tropical locations).
my sig
The 2004 Chevy Malibu will launch this fall with a 42V electrical system and Delphi E-Steer electrical power steering. It's not full steer-by-wire; there's still a mechanical linkage. But that's for backup, through a flexible coupling. The real steering is done with a sensor on the steering column, a motor in the steering box, and a computer watching speed, steering angle, skid information, and such.
This will make converting cars to computer control much easier.
The new batteries shouldn't cost 3x as much either. Yes, it will have 3x as many cells, but the cells could be 1/3rd the size, which could give the battery the same capacity as one of today. Of course, they do expect higher electricity demands in the future, so batteries will probably get larger (and would have to do so even if we stayed with 12v) so the size and price of batteries will probably increase somewhat.
As far as providing 110V AC circuits, they can do this pretty easily and cheaply now, if they wish. 36V systems won't make this that much easier. (It will make it easier to provide higher capacity 110v circuits, however. A hair dryer draws 1500 watts, which is 10 amps at 110 V or 125 amps at 12 volts. 10 amps is a lot, and 125 amps is massive. Assuming a 100% efficient inverter (which isn't possible), a 36v system could would only need 42 amps to power that hair dryer. Still a lot, but the wires needed to power the inverter would be a lot smaller.
(Of course, 42 amps is still a lot, and so it's unlikely that many cars will have an inverter capable of producing 1500 watts of power. But 500 seems likely.)
And no, I wouldn't expect this to affect the 1000+ watt stereos out there much. A 36v system would make wiring up one of these stereos simpler, because you could use smaller wires, but other than that it would be the same. The stereo could have some smaller wires internally as well, so in theory it might be a bit smaller and cheaper, but I'd expect that effect to be minimal.
if I'm wrong, but I heard 24V is the "lethal treshold" voltage, i.e. anything above it can kill, below - not (YMMV of course). So if your car breaks and you get your limb stuck with some powered element, with some bad luck you will fry to death, where 12V was safe, at worst giving you rather painful electric shock and some burns.
45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
That's kind of stupid. You're converting DC power from your car to AC for your laptop's AC adaptor that converts AC into DC for the laptop to use.
And I'm not even going to ask how much you're wasting doing that.
Touching any high-potential line will not do anything to you either unless the current has a path to ground through you. Even a small current (1uA) at 20MV will kill you instantly in that case because it will destroy your nervous system even without cooking anything else.
"When the going gets tough, the wierd turn pro"
That's Hunter S. Thompson... you should give creds by at least putting HST at the end.
How high does the voltage need to be before one requires an electricians licence to work on such a vehicle. Could it put many mechanics out of a job?
Because P=IV quadrupling (well, 3.5x) the voltage gives you a four fold increase in power at your maximum safe current.
:o)
On the down side increased voltages require much thicker conductors (or better ones, like gold), and more/richer copper alloys means more expense and weight - not a thing the car industry will be keen on.
OTOH for electric cars and multistage ones (think hybrid fuel cell charging battery type) battery and capacitor efficiency increases as the voltage rises, and so does energy loss accross non-trivial transmission lengths (there are several miles of cable in a car) so once enough of these advantages come into play it's possible that you might see cars with a 42kV warning on the side, let alone 42V
Beep beep.
Wow... more power to put into subs so teens can loose their hearing.... faster!! Awesome
I forgot to add that this could make them safer, too. Right now cars that have high voltage systems (e.g. hybrid or electric cars) usually have separate electrical systems; a high voltage one for the drive train, and a low voltage one for the rest of the car.
This is works, but it can cause fires if the high voltage system comes in contact with the low voltage one. Fires and high voltage systems in cars can be very nasty. This complicates the job of resuing people from an accident or repairing the car afterwards.
"Weapons should be hardy rather than decorative" - Miyamoto Musashi
I think that goes for OS's too
It looks great on the outside, but my poor '88 Civic LX is rusting like a mofo from the inside out.
I hope it lasts me another four years, at which time I'll be able to afford a new card. Be nice to see what kind of hybrids are available at that time!
It means that you can jump your car from any power outlet. Talk about convenient.
--
On of a million monkeys at a million keyboards.
Why stop at 230
the only thing 110v here is used for are building tools and shavers , none of which are gonna help me when ive broken down (unless the recovery mechanic is a hot looking chick and i need to look fresh
Sorry, high voltage does not need thicker wire.
High current requires thicker wire.
There may be "miles of cable" in a car, but no signal will travel for much more then the overall length of a car.
What is really needed more is a 12 volt battery that can provide current for longer periods of time. I would rather see a parallel system. 2 12 volt batteries with either 2 alternantors (one for car and all of it's internal acessories and one for the external plugin ones. Also, the second battery could also be charged off of regenerative brakes and or solar cells as well as a alternator.
:)
I don't see how changing voltage will make cleaner sound. The biggest problem with mobile electronics is lack of a good ground. The ground on a modern vehicle sucks. When I run a HF radio in the car, most of the losses are because of the ground system in the car. It's near impossible to fix that properly. The antenna systems in the car are almost always verticals and normaly you'd either burial radials or have a decent ground plane built. With a car, it's impossible to change the width of your ground plane because it's mobile. Mobile installations almost always require an antenna tuner because of this and this is just to make sure your SWR stays radio safe. You may have a radio capable of 100 Watts, but I have never seen one produce it. Plus the alternator produces alot of hash that needs to be blanked out or filtered out. RF chokes on the power cords and other things to get rid of this noise. When you run off of just batteries, that noise is not there anymore and you don't need those filters.
Gorkman
You can always stop three cars, wire their 12V batteries in series, and presto! 42V!
To Terminate, or not to Terminate, that's the question - SCSIROB
42V is below the threshold (50V) where the rules change concerning electrical safety. It is still considered a low voltage circuit, with minimal risk of electrical shock and injury.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
I just hope they come out with a better plug that the cigarette lighter plugs we're used to. I can't think of anytime I've ever seen anyone who actually uses those things to light cigaretters and apart from doing that they're absolutly horrid.
I think a plug that resembles the GC controller port would be much nicer. the plugs slide into place easily, you have to excert a just the right amount of force to remove them and they always connect perfectly.
The arcss are somewhat more dangerous in case of fuel leaks. Cars must have auto-cutoffs for accidents so the chance of spark getting close to the fuel and frying both those in the car and the rescuers.
If we, as a vehicular society, are going to want improvements in the stuff we can do with electricity in our cars over the next 10 years (very likely), we need to start working on changing the platform with which to do this now.
It appears that this is happening and this is a good thing.
My car already has a 144 volt electrical system. (Enough to power the car up a hill.) With the battery banks in the trunk, I really don't have to worry about leaving the dome light on either.
Are they going to change the cigarette-lighter plug and all obey the same standard? I can picture it now... "I plugged in my cell phone to charge, and then it started smoking....." I already need a hundred 12-volt adapters in my house for charging different things, don't need them in my car as well.
Just read an article in the automotive section of my local (St. Louis) newspaper this morning. Didn't seem to be in the online version, but I think it was a syndicated article so you may have some luck finding it somewhere else.
Anywhoo, the columnist claimed that car manufacturers are seriously planning on replacing current headlight designs with LED's. They require less power for more light, and are a bit easier on the environment (no mercury). Seems like this would be a good way to cut the voltage necessary at night (or for cars with those damn fool daytime running lights).
Just a thought.
I take drugs seriously.
I see where the weight savings are coming from. Instead of having a heater core and a more extensive water cooling system, they have a electric heating element and a fan. They would no longer pull heat off of the engine to provide heat in the car. Of course this is if they choose this. They could choose a heat pump (would not be sufficient for northern climates) and use it for both heating and cooling (reverse direction). Personally, this would be a waste of a good source of heat(to me). BUT this could ALSO be a bigger push to get most of the systems in a car converted to 42 volt so that when Electric motors become more efficient, they won't have to do anything but redesign the drive system (no more ICE Engine). Everything else would be driven off of the elctrical system by this point so the engine could also.
:)
Personally, I don't see the idiots who have bass thumper and loudspeakers going in a car. They don't really care about music reproduction. They just want to "feel" the music. Most current car audio systems are fine for me! I just don't need all of that "steal me" gear in my car!
Gorkman
What is really needed more is a 12 volt battery that can provide current for longer periods of time. I would rather see a parallel system. 2 12 volt batteries with either 2 alternantors (one for car and all of it's internal acessories and one for the external plugin ones. Also, the second battery could also be charged off of regenerative brakes and or solar cells as well as a alternator.
Most diesel pickup trucks have two 12v batteries wired in parallel to help crank the starter (diesel engines have a much higher compression ratio than gasolines). Some gasoline cars do too, one such example is the previous generation BMW 750i V12.
Most large trucks and tractors use batteries in parallel, though they're not all wired exactly the same (some use two 12v batteries in series for 24v, others use two 12v batteries in parallel for more amps at 12v.... and some use three, four, or six batteries).
Many motorhomes (self propelled RVs) have two banks of batteries, one for starting the engine and one for all of the accessories. The engine battery is usually a typical "lots of amps for a few seconds" cranking type, and the accessory batteries are usually "fewer amps, but for a longer duration" deep cycle type.
Most diesel pickup trucks have two 12v batteries wired in parallel to help crank the starter (diesel engines have a much higher compression ratio than gasolines). Some gasoline cars do too, one such example is the previous generation BMW 750i V12.
I should clarify... the previous generation BMW 750i (1995 - 2001) used two 12v batteries in parallel for more amperage to its 12v electrical system. It was not a 24v setup.
I have no idea what current BMWs use, for all I know, they could be using 440v three phase AC.
The Fiat Punto is a shitty car. That's why Fiat's market share is collapsing.
The CitroÃn C3 now includes an electric power steering, and for a car of that class (that is, smallcheapcheapdammit), it rocks.
That said, every car manufacturer in the markets that can spend real money on cars, every, is wanting to do the jump.
And I can't wait for full steer-by-wire to enter the market. Simply removing the column will save a lot of lifes.
Craftsmans & DieHard. Was changing a boat battery and the back end of the pliers hit the negative pole while I was tightening down positive. It looked like I was holding a sparkler and felt like 100 yellow jackets; fortunately it was DC and not AC, I jumped in the lake to cool my hand.
Got a chance to see what a tendon looks like, plus my wedding ring has chunks blown out of it.
How well does it still run?
I'm more interested in what this means for the batteries themselves. Would 36/42 V batteries last as long as the 12V ones? At the very least batteries would have 3 times as many cells, i.e. more points of failure.
How would cold weather starting be affected? Would this benefit cold weather starts, or would cold weather make starts more difficult?
AccountKiller
Peugeot 307. They didn't go full-multiplex, but a sizeable portion of the electric doodads is basically doing things the USB way: a pair of power supply rails, and a data bus through the whole car. Cheap terminal gizmos in front of each device to demultiplex. VoilÃ, less wiring.
Yep! And the extra weight could be saved by switching from the current heating systems to an electrical one. So, this seems like a better idea to me. Although my guess is that to us drivers this won't matter much. They'll step down the voltage at the ciggy lighter and for the stereo. This will be first generation. I bet both will be available in places, but 12 will be used more commonly because it is what everyone has.
Gorkman
So the wire can be 1/3 the diameter. (Ignoring the fact that the smaller wire won't dissipate heat as well)
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
Higher voltage is needed for quick restarts at stop lights thus avoiding gas consumption when not moving.
42 volt means thinner copper cables, it also means you can run an electric airco, instead of a mechanical mechanism the engine has to pull along all winter uselessly. This would actually make the car more eco-friendly. (Remember a car pollutes as much during production as during its entire lifetime on the road.)
10 ?"Hello World" life was simple then
I'd love to be able to put one of these higher voltage batteries/alternators in my 2000 VW.
Anyone know what would be involved, or if it would even be possible to retrofit such a system? Wouldn't it fry the existing (stock) vehicle electronics (ECU's, et al.)?
Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. It's the only thing that ever has.
In a 12-volt system, the available voltage to an audio amplifier is (duh) 0 to +12V. Assuming we're going to make sinusoidal-shaped waves (clean audio) out of this, we have a theoretical maximum (at 100% efficiency) of (12 / 2.828) 4.24V RMS available as an AC sine-wave. Ohm's Law tells us (P = E^2 / R) so we can deliver:
2.25W RMS into 8 ohms
4.49W RMS into 4 ohms
8.99W RMS into 2 ohms
Change the DC power supply to 42V and we get these numbers:
14.85V RMS
27.57W RMS into 8 ohms
55.13W RMS into 4 ohms
110.26W RMS into 2 ohms
As you can see from these figures, audio systems can't do any better than 9W into a 2-ohm load from a 12VDC supply. So how do they do more than that? They convert the available 12VDC to a higher voltage through on-board DC-DC converters. These converters generate noise that has to be filtered out of the audio output. Again assuming 100% efficiency, a device powered by DC-DC conversion requires 3.5 times the supply current at a supply voltage of 12V to up-convert to 42V. So the advantages are cleaner output, less current needed, less complexity and better efficiency.
(Subject translation: I Am Not An Electronic Engineer, But I Do Understand Ohm's Law.)
2003 - 1988 = 15 years
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Because the need for heavy, high current copper wiring is eliminated. Raise the voltage, lower the current requirements. Since copper isn't all that cheap, it will also lower the cost of the vehicle.
My rights don't need management.
Well, what you say makes a lot of sense -- if you say it in 1989. If you're complaining about your 1988 Civic not lasting 15 years in 2003, well .. it's too late.
You have no creativity at all, my friend. What you really want to plug in is a toaster. Imagine making your Pillsbury Toaster Strudels or toasted bagels while driving to work! Or a guitar amp. You could even take your home stereo on the road, and only need one CD change, XM radio, or whatever. Personally, I'm particularly excited to finally be able to have lava lamps in my car. Oh, and the toaster, of course.
Wouldn't it make more sense to just install a (slightly) larger generator in the drive line, then use a powered blower to compress the incoming air? Less parts/chance of failure, less back pressure on the engine, etc, etc, etc... It also seems like it'd be more mechanically efficient as well.
And if you're building the car from the wheels up, why not put a little more brains in it to shut down things like the AC system and the heated seats momentarily when the turbo starts gulping down LOTS of power? (At least until the increased output catches up to the turbo demands...)
(I rented a car recently that actually turned the stereo up slightly whenever it's little engine started sounding too loud. A neat trick!)
Other than that, neat idea!
The reason why all the automotive industry want to switch from 12 to 42 V is due to the fact that in newer cars, the electric consumption is really too high due to the growing number of electric/electronic peripherals.
More watts with the same voltage means more Amperes and bigger wires in the electrical circuit (made of copper), more important weight, more expensive cabling and in the end, a lot more chance for the vehicle to caught fire if anything goes wrong in the electric system !!!
If the automotive industry want to introduce new equipments like electric braking systems (which permit to replace all the expensive an heavy hydraulic brakes, hydraulic ABS regulator, etc...), 42 V in cars is mandatory.
For such a geek board it's funny to see how many don't have a clue about Ohm's law.
-- I have a private email server in my basement.
On the other hand, they could just go with the inelegant solution of designing an interface that makes it impossible to connect jumper cables.
We had to boost one of our cars the other day, and the only other vehicle handy was my father's Montana. The battery is in there in such a way that you cannot access the terminals directly, at least not without cutting away parts of the frame (or removing the battery, of course). To allow for boosts TO the van, they have a 'remote positive terminal' which you can easily access.
Only problem is, there is no 'remote negative terminal', essentially making it impossible to use his van to boost another car. Even the owner's manual insists you need a negative terminal to boost from, so it's not like there's some weird configuration of booster cables that I've never heard of.
Gotta love progress.
Endless arguments over trivial contradictions in books written by ignorant savages to explain thunder in the dark.
went for the Volts, but stayed for the babes.
Wouldn't this also increase the risk of accidents at gas stations? 42 Volts are more likely to cause a violent stray spark than 12 Volts... and what if little Timmy decides to plug the car refrigerator into the 110V outlet just at the time a heavy load of gasoline fumes comes wafting in through the window?
The luxury market does not drive any portion of the auto industry. It is the least profitable buisness segment. New tech appears in the luxury models only because that is the only economic way to proof it (beta testing). So the luxury lines provide a testbed for development, which justifies their existence. The auto industry does not ever develop tech that can not be applied across product lines.Doing so is not profitable
I have worked in the Automotive electronics industry, developing motor controlers, regulators, converters, etc. The 12V standard is the one single greatest impediment to the development of efficient electric/hybrid autos. A 12V motor will be at least 2 times the wieght of an equivilently powered 36V motor.
EMF (volts) != Power ( watts), idiot.
Higher voltage will result in smaller power supplies and more efficient systems. As a youngster, I use to maintain very high powered 12 volt electric equipment ( Power[P] = EMF[V] * Current[I] ( amps)
P = I^2 * Resitance[R] ( ohms)
R = Constant * Length / CrossSectionalArea[A]
(BTW this P is waste == inefficiency)
This means that for a given efficiensy, the wieght of the wiring is proportional to the square of the current. I.e. Twice the current needs 4 times the copper.
I know it's 15 now, I'd love to get another 15 out of it!
They just don't build them like they used to.
At the lower voltages, especially when one cell goes out, the problem for starters, other accessories becomes serious. You can measure voltage drop along a line from the plus side of the battery to the item getting the power. Use a digital voltmeter, and record what you have to ground at each point. Then you can see the resistance offered by connections, good and bad. When you only have 12 volts to work with, then the percentage of drop is higher for each connection and length of conductor. I rewired my antique Beetle to overcome much of the problems associated with having too many items on one run of wire, and the danger of the car going dead if a short occurs in something. One time, I turned on the windshield wipers, only to have the car go dead. It seems that the wiper motor circuit was on the same fuse as the coil! Now, I have two circuits, both fused.
Increasing the voltage from 6 to 12 was done by VW in the 1960's, and I can see why they did that. Increasing the voltage in modern cars will help in overall reliability, considering how many accessories, on-board computers, etc. are in use today, in addition to the starter and ignition that all cars require.
Well, I just turned 190K miles on the odometer on Friday.
It runs OK. I just replaced every single filter in the car, and switched to full synthetic oil. I need to replace the timing belt, and the suspension's pretty much shot all the way around. Clutch also needs replaced, and I believe I'm starting to lose the synchros for 3rd and 5th gear.
Gets around 40mpg average (city and highway, mostly highway).
It runs, and it's been reliable. Unfortunately, with all the rust going on underneath the car, I'm afraid I'm going to hit a bump one day and see a shock tower pop through my hood or trunk!
The poster is talking about fully electric steering which dispenses with the mechanics entirely, except for an emergency linkage.
-
It's a small miracle that the battery drain if the car isn't driven every day....
No, but I know a few people who have gone through more than one starter motor each year. Most drivers don't understand that if they leave everything on in their viechle, the starter motor has to really crank itself to death to push out those amps for the AC & GPS & Stereo system & every other luxury in their viechle. Starter motors were never designed to have to supply that much current when it starts up.
Do your car a favor. Turn everything off before you get out of your car.
Already predicted! (At least according to Del - 3030 will be post apocalypse, right? :)
Infiltration hits your station
No Microsoft or enhanced DOS will impede
Society thinks their safe when
Bingo! Hard drive crashes from the rendering
PC parts and accessories manufacturers and sellers are going to lose money if we can plug our laptops into a standard power outlet...
Friday, 05 April, 2002. 01:26:41 PM
Cars are going to have 42 volt electrical systems in the future. The reason for that is the growing demands on the electrical systems by electric components. Wiring harnesses in high end cars can have over 2000 meters of wire in them, up from 75 meters typical in the 1950's. Power demands have grown by 100 watts a year for the past 5 year, and are currently at about 2000 watts. In 1970, that figure was only 500 watts. In 10 years, cars will use 10000 watts. For a 14 volt electrical system, that translates into a total current drain of 714 amps. Because of Ohm's law, increasing the voltage will decrease the current, allowing smaller and cheaper wires to be used. There's still some details to be managed. For example, will there be a single 42 volt alternator and 42 volt battery, or will there be dual alternators at 12 and 36 volts. What about dual batteries? There will also be many alternative fuel vehicles, and some of those will be electric, probably requiring a separate electrical system.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
mod parent up
The transition to 24-volt batteries will be complete by 2020? Aw, come on, I thought we were all supposed to have hovercars by then. Why can't Moore's law apply to automobiles?
by that time it will be a classic :-)
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
I just hope they come out with a better plug that the cigarette lighter plugs we're used to. I can't think of anytime I've ever seen anyone who actually uses those things to light cigaretters and apart from doing that they're absolutly horrid.
It always pisses me off when I see a newer car with no lighter -- but like 5 "power outlets". I do believe you can get a lighter and a cup-holder ashtray on request, though.
The lighter is extremely handy for its intended purpose. Ever tried to flick a Bic with wind from the windows and/or vents, while keeping a hand on the wheel? The 12v lighter is great for these occasions.
Now, my argument would be to keep the lighter around (maybe a new, non-plug-compatible shape to avoid accidental usage with 12v devices), but have a separate accessory outlet design -- completely unrelated to the lighter.
Personally I think there are too many 12v devices for this to be practical. Not just stereos, radar detectors, and phone chargers, but geeky (more niche, less likely to be redesigned) things like ham radios and such...
The perfect comprimise IMO is to use a dual-rail power supply of +/-12v. You'd get full backward-compatibility for 12-14v devices, and a full 24-28v source for devices that need it (with a special 3-wire power cable). Two motorcycle-sized 12v batteries could be used (or a new battery with a center-tap, whatever).
But the auto industry doesn't listen to me. Otherwise we'd still have cigarette lighters and ashtrays...
NGWave - Fast Sound Editor for Windows
I've RTFA but I can't find one piece of information that seems pretty important: does the move to 36V power mean that we'll also see a standardized accessory connector that's less of a kludge than the "cigarette lighter" connectors we have know. I believe that the laws of physics would prevent something more kludgey from being used, but this seems like a perfect opportunity for the industry to settle on a sensible scheme for the interconnection of external devices. Does anyone know if this is slated to happen?
Phil
Will there be a standard 36V/42V power outlet, or are we forever stuck with the horrible 12V cigarette lighter "socket?"
Mark
4 Friends in parallel = same old 12 volts. You need to put them in series.
Seriously, tho, how much shit do you need to run in a car? I have yet to see a vehicle that can't handle a decent car stereo (a couple hundred watts), laptop, GPS, and TV/VCR (for the kids). I picked up an inverter years ago that gives me a hundred watts of 110VAC in a package the size of a paperback book. That's enough to run the chargers for all of my battery-powered devices.
A 42-volt system will slash weight
Where ? 12V lead/acid batteries have 6 elements, 42V batteries would have 21. That's 21 lead plates and associated acid cell.
Get with the times. Upping the voltage allows the same punch with less current, which allows the use of smaller, lighter, NiMH batteries. Of course NiMH could be built in larger sizes, but they're not -- and being able to use smaller, commodity sizes is a hell of a lot cheaper. In fact the Honda Insight and Toyota Prius use commodity NiMH 'D' flashlight cells chained together in a big battery pack. 35 of these in series gives a 42V battery with more oomph than a stone-age lead-acid wet cell, is longer lived, more reliable, hardly affected by temperature, and a fraction of the weight. In case you haven't noticed, car batteries are *heavy.* Engineers love to be able to reduce vehicle weight, but the real savings is in shipping cost!
the wires would be lower-gauge wiring since they wouldn't have to transport as much current. I can't see that being a real weight economy.
No, but it sure is cheaper -- and more reliable. Higher voltage is less affected by bad grounds, corrosion, etc., which are the source of most vehicle electric problems.
improve fuel economy
How ? do 42V alternators have a better efficiency than 12V ones ? And even if that was the case, wouldn't, say, driving the alternator with something else than a rubber belt improve efficiency much more dramatically ?
Yes, higher voltage devices are more efficient. But besides that, the move is toward direct drive, combination, generator/starter/traction motors that live in the bellhousing like the one in the Honda hybrids. There's no belt, and no losses (or maintenance issues) due to that. There's one device, not two or three. It lives in a thermally stable, clean, dry environment. In ten years, more cars will have this hybrid-like architecture than not, whether or not they'll be true hybrids. It's simply a better way to build a car.
permit the replacement of many mechanical parts with electrical ones
How ? what are the mechanical parts that can't be replaced by 12V electrical equivalents that could be replaced by 42V ones ?
Electric air conditioning compressors, power steering and brake servos, etc., become viable with a higher voltage system. Higher voltage allows them to be smaller, lighter, cheaper, and efficient enough to surpass current technologies.
and, of most concern to us, improve efficiency for all automotive electrical devices
I don't know about overall efficiency, but in all fairness, that's true : it's easier to step the voltage down than up. So yes, many devices would become lighter, cheaper and probably more efficient.
Well if you don't know, then STFU. "I don't know what I'm talking about, but here I go anyway..."
And yes, many devices would become lighter, cheaper, and more efficient. A few watts here, a few watts there, it all adds up. A few dollars here, a few dollars there, that all adds up too -- except that automakers think in *fractions of pennies.*
opening the door to higher audio amplifier power with far less complexity than the current crop of 12-volt, high-power amplifiers. Not only can will this translate to lower cost and more compact aftermarket power amps, even head units could cheaply integrate 100-plus RMS watts per channel power.
That's about the only application where I can see a 42V system be useful.
I'm sure.
How ? what are the mechanical parts that can't be replaced by 12V electrical equivalents that could be replaced by 42V ones ?
Short answer is valves. A 12V system does not have enough 'oomph' to drive a valve up and down fast enough. A 42V system on the other hand does. By using a 42V system you can make engines much more efficient and powerful by dispensing with the whole camshaft, idler and pulley arrangement. Doing this you reduce friction and have more precise control over valve opening and closing times, thereby increasing economy and power.
While there are way too many loonies shaving, applying makeup, or handling a cell phone while driving, I can also see some bright sides to more electronics in a car.
...
How about keeping the kids in back quiet because they are watching their favorite film instead of fighting? I've used this trick before with my 4-year old and laptop and it does work on long trips.
How about keeping peoples eyes on the road more with more integrated electronics that allow voice-control over equipment? "CD, disc 3". "CD, next track". "Phone, dial home". Or instrument clusters that use HUDs (some cars have elements of these already).
Just looking at the possible upside
I've got an 88 Legend that runs beautifully. Before that I had an 87 Accord that ran like the day it was new, despite having 200k miles on it. It might have lasted another 10 years if I hadn't fucked it up by getting in a crash.
Rust is almost entirely dependant on how much salt you drive your car through. Where I live nothing rusts. It's strange, becaues were I grew up, no car ever lasted 15 years.
"One of the real benefits of jumping to 42-volt systems, especially for hybrid vehicles, is the ability of the vehicle to offer regular 110-volt electrical outlets".
What's "regular" about that? Last time I checked ~1/10 of the world (i.e. USA, and maybe some of its "allies") used it. The rest of the world used 230 or 240 volts AC.
A downside to that is you'll get a good deal of electric shock if something is not isolated and your hands are wet or worse, your skin is cut. Body sensitivity (resistance) varies depending on whole slew of conditions, but it is commonly known that on average 30 volt or above is not pleasing to the touch even if your hands are dry.
Things like the speed of light, weight of a proton and so on are laws of nature, therefore natural ceilings.
but my electric shaver uses 240V!
"Smoking helps you lose weight - one lung at a time" -- A. E. Neumann
Depends on where you get the car and drive it I guess. I'm just relating an anecdotal. My boss just had to buy two new cars, for himself and wifey. Reason? One was bought and used up north in a serious salt the roads in the winter rust belt, the other sat down near their beach condo in florida. I worked on both those POSs until I refused to do it, told them to just go eat it at the dealers.. the electrical systems (and brakes and this and that) were totaled from corrosion, nothing worked on them for very long,computerised crap all over, they would get something fixed, within a month another extremely expensive and mostly stupid doo dad was gone, almost always due to corroded wires, that lead to this thing frying, then down the chain, poof, poof, poof. Neither car was more than a few years old, one was a full size conversion van, the other a pathfinder. Maybe that's not typical, but it's what I saw. I'm spolied I guess, grew up working on rusty salty stuff, ..never again!
Contrast my pure steel, no exotic electronics, never even seen salty anything 1975 van, 300+ miles, everything works just swell. No salt, no rust, no corrosion.
I predicteth that the 42 volt cars will suffer similar,or worse, unless they really learn to seal them better. I also think these new batteries won't last as long,(unless they use some sort of sealed exotic materials batteries) because the lead plates inside will have to be smaller, less bulk, less strength, their spongy nature/design will flake off faster with road bumps. That's the reason off roaders go to special batteries, because "normal" car starter batteries break internally so easy because of smaller more delicate plates (one reason anyway, there's several actually)(Hi off roaders, 80 cj7 here)(someone please shoot my carter bbd please).
Besides that, some of the newer tech sounds interesting, but I guess I'll just keep sticking with running much older stuff I can still work on, until they outlaw it or something. Now, I *would* go to a hybrid though,there's an exception, if it was diesel on the fuel burning side. I already need generators, might as well have one that does double duty. But I certainly wouldn't go to a new car just to run 1000 amp boom boxes "more efficiently". In fact, I think those rolling racket rap machines should be codified into law under the "he just needed killin'" statutes we have.
A higher voltage electrial system probably wont have much effect on the maximum power output of car sound systems although it may allow for more compact amplifier design. The reason for this is that car amplifiers use a DC-DC converter to generate the necessary voltages. A typical amplifier capable of delivering 100W RMS into a 4 ohm load requires about 80 volts (+40v and -40v). Even with a 42v electrical system a DC-DC converter would still be required.
The word you're looking for is 'Kamikaze'.
In fact there was a problem for a few months buils where a cooling far could get jammed, and then the fuse for the whole cooling system would go on boom! No more power steering. Fixed in later builds though...
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Not that anyone knows how to violate the laws of physics...
The article made a point to state that the new standard is a result of an agreement between European and U.S. automakers? Does anyone have any idea how this plays out with Asian automakers?
Feh, my 88 accord runs "ok" considering every once in a while it would idle eratically and/or high, and by high i mean 2k high ...
the suspension is crap, but i dont know what it's really supposed to feel like, only that i dont like it =) the clutch is worn out but livable, and the transmission is in good shape
so i guess for 174.5k miles, it runs pretty damn good, but i'd rather rebuild the engine anyways.
btw, i only get 30mpg, bastard =p
as for rust, not an issue in the desert.
disclaimer: i'm sure others of you have had much better experiences, but this car was a piece of shit when i bought it, and is 90% better now. the electrical system was ghettofied, the fuel system was all f'd up, and the clutch was almost on/off ...
No, I am not an English major. My posts are subject to typos and incorrect grammar. Do not expect perfection.
30mpg isn't bad for an ACCORD! You've got a larger car! ;-)
:-)
My car was an electrical nightmare as well, but that was all fixed the weekend I bought it. Some people could stand to learn a little patience when replacing burnt wiring harnesses.
Suspension is hell. My driver's front shock is gone, springs are going all the way around.
I think the fuel filter was original. Took me an hour to remove it, due to frozen fittings. I smacked it upside-down on the garage floor, and mud came out. Not surprisingly, the car has much more power now!
For your idle problems, check your vaccuum system. A leak could cause that kind of idle.
I like the idea of owning a car that will last long enough so my kids could possibly drive it one day.
"Where does it plug in, dad?"
"I dudn't, son. Here, pour some of this moonshine into that there funnel behind that door on the side of the car. *HIC*"
Heck, a 12v battery is made out of a bunch of 1.5v cells anyway. (That's what a "battery" is, a group of cells.)
SPF support for most open source mail servers can be found at libspf2.
As far as the luxury market being the least profitable segment, that would depend upon perspective. First off, you must decide what is and what is not a luxury car. Let's assume we remove the near luxury market from the equation and peg the luxury market at 5 Series, E Class or equivalent and then on up from there. These cars definitely do not account for the majority of revenue or profit for the auto industry as a whole due to their relative limited production. However, these models tend to have a much higher margin. This is significant because the return on assets/investment for these products is superior to the more "bread and butter" cars. This is why a number of large auto companies such as Ford, GM, etc. have purchased foreign luxury marques. Higher margins normally translate to higher stock valuations. Just look at the successes that BMW, Toyota and others have had recently with their stock as a function of the operational performance of these companies due to increased margin. As far as the statement that luxury cars do not drive ANY portion of the auto industy, I do not think that is necessarily true. I fully agree with you that luxury cars are testbeds for new technology, but these advances often trickle down to "lower" vehicles over time as economies of scale and market preferences allow. One can only look to HID lamps, ABS, traction control, stability control, heated seats, etc. to see this process. It would be more correct to say that luxury cars drive the future of the auto industry. Your math is correct. At the end of the day, increasing voltage will give manufacturers more latitude for design as extremely high currents will not be necessary to achieve the same power output.
Thank you Mr. Grade School Science.
My automotive mechanics teacher has been telling about this since the first semester of my freshman year.
Is the timeline new? Is the reprinting of such information new? Is this just a slow news day?
On another note: 42 volts makes a lot more sense. No one with half a brain would ever forget it.
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
We have a truck that already uses 24 volts. In fact lots of trucks use 24 volts. We hve a 24 volt charger because trying to jump start a truck with a car doesn't work. Because the system is all 24 volts, it's nice, simple and *reliable*.
Oh yeah, people shouldn't be using ye-olde jumper leads on cars that have EFI computers. Use of such leads can lead to the loss of magic smoke.
Xix.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
What 42 volts gets you:
-
Starter and alternator will be the same motor, and integrated into the flywheel-- much less weight. Will be possible to do instant starts. With instant starts, can automatically shut engine off while waiting at a stoplight.
-
Electrically actuated valves. See above post for the advantages of that. A point about getting rid of the timing belt-- on some cars (*cough* Mazda *cough*), if the timing belt broke, the engine was instantly ruined. The valves and pistons smashed into each other.
-
Electric power steering. No more bulky, high maintenance hydraulic pump with attendant hoses.
-
Electric A/C, hermetically sealed. The reason current automotive A/C is driven by an external pulley with clutch that is attached to a shaft that PENETRATES THE CASE is because at 12V, can't generate enough electromagnetic force to do it the other way. So this shaft has to have seals. Those seals are quite often the first part of a car's A/C system to leak, letting all that ozone friendly refrigerant out.
-
Electric water pump. The current mechanical water pump system is terribly inefficent because it has to pump the water at whatever RPM the engine is running at, not just when the engine is hot. So the cooling system uses gimmickery such as sticking in a thermostat to block the flow to the radiator.
- At this point, with the A/C, power steering, water pump, and alternator all changed, can lose the belt (formerly called "fan belt" until radiator fans went electric). Belts are a fine way to lose energy and are prone to wearing out and breaking.
- Electric oil pump. This one doesn't gain us as much. Unlike water, oil has got to circulate all the time. Main advantage is location: don't have to position the oil pump where the crankshaft can drive it. Probably an electric pump would be smaller. It's a bigger gain if going electric means we can go "dry sump" and not have the crankshaft energetically frothing up the several quarts of oil that's always sitting in the pan. Dry sump is often used in racing.
-
Smaller lighter wiring. Many have pointed this out.
- Smaller accessory motors: wiper blades, window wash, power windows, power locks. Maybe even smaller motors in 10 disk CD changers. More power for defrosting was already mentioned.
- Electric automatic transmission shifter. Dump the mechanical parts used to control the transmission. Make programming those shift points even easier.
- Electric brakes. Rather than a simple swap of the typical hydraulic system for an equivalent electric one (using electricity instead of hydraulics to squeeze those brake pads), this would be regenerative braking.
- For the folks who like to modify: Active suspension. Maybe this will make it less expensive to be a lowrider. Maybe this would bring the cost of active suspension down to where the manufacturers can afford to offer it as an option. And then, how about electric turbochargers or superchargers?
All this translates to less weight, more efficiency, greater reliability, and simpler and easier to repair when it does break. What's not to love?Intellectual Property is a monopolistic, selfish, and defective concept. It is "tyranny over the mind of man"
And that 42-vold CIGARETTE LIGHTER will help the younger generation spark up their crank pipes while they're listening to Snoop Dog and watching a DVD in their car.
Best Buy can have you arrested
All the current statements about why 42V was chosen are blatantly blah. Why? It should be obvious to the galaxy's various hitch-hikers.
'42' is still the Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything. That includes vehicular electrical systems. I'm just surprised nobody realized it earlier.
Bruce Lane, KC7GR,
Blue Feather Technologies
Two good reasons why using the higher voltage that have nothing to do with how many gadgets you have inside the passenger compartment.
.
:^)
The starter will not need to be as large/heavy and will not draw as much current so wiill not need as large of cabling to it reducing weight, also all the wiring will not need to be as large as you will not need to draw as much current through them either further reducing weight
Well at least that is what an engineering trade mag' I get said about 4 months ago when I read up on this subject.
And then of course when all the marker/signal lights go to high output LED's the current demands will drop even more, of course the I2/R losses from regulating down the high voltage may generate some heat and possibly lose some effeciency anyway I ramble...
Personally I am looking forward to the change
Doug
Buddha of compassion
42V is enough to pass through dirty water, so I anticipate all kinds of problems when things get wet, unless everything is carefully designed to tolerate some electrical leakage. On the contrary, a 12V motor will actually run underwater with no sealing!
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
For electronics that a consumer can contact, the voltage still needs to be limited. With lots of grounded metal nearby, doing auto wireing is kinda like wireing your house circuit breaker panel while standing in a puddle in bare feet. It's not a great idea at high voltage.
.25 hoursepower and in the 12 volt example it's about 5.3 horsepower gone to heat.
This means that for a given efficiensy, the wieght of the wiring is proportional to the square of the current. I.e. Twice the current needs 4 times the copper.
Anybody want to take a stab at figuring wire sizes for a 1 volt drop in two examples below? If you do, figure a wireing length from battery to comverter (AC Variable frequency, variable voltage) to engine alternator/startermotor to drive motor, regenerative braking loop of about 15 feet. (7 feet each conductor + & -)
Anyway, the Toyota Prius uses a 300 volt battery for the electric drivetrain end of things. That keeps the wire sizes reasonable. For compatibility, it uses a converter to keep up a 12 volt battery (motorbike sized) for the lights, computer, instermentation, etc. The battery is small because it is not used to crank the engine. The 300 volt does it. If they dropped the voltage by 10, the current required to do the same job would go up by a factor of 10. Therefore a motor instead of running 200A at 300 volts would run 2,000A at 30 volts, or (ready for the 12 volt system) 4,000 Amps at 15 volts.
Here is where the big losses in low voltage systems come from. Drop 1 volt in the 15 volt system due to 4000 amps in a very large wire and your loss is 4,000 Watts. Can you say hot wires! Drop 1 volt on the 300 volt line at 200A on a much smaller wire and the loss is only 200 Watts. You can use a much smaller wire to get a better job done.
At 746 watts per horsepower, the loss in the 300 volt example is about
Driving a Toyota Prius is an experiance. It has the get up and go of a V6 even though it's a 1 Liter 4 cylinder engine. It gets it's merge to the freeway with a combination of gas and battery power. The engine auto shuts off for stoplights (restarts as you take off again) Other than the silence at a stop sign or light, you would never know the engine shut off. Because of this, it gets better milage in stop and go city traffic than freeway driving with it's high wind resistance. These would be fantastic for a fleet of taxies.
The truth shall set you free!
I forgot to mention, but the magnetic field on these wires is directly proportional to the current in them irregardless of the voltage. Anyone with a pacemaker should be careful near the 12 volt version.
A pair of wires near each other with 4,000 amps tend to relocate themselves unless solidly held in place.
The truth shall set you free!
Right now nearly every add on in a car (radio, cell charger, that sort of thing) uses a version of the 7805 or 7812 regulator. These devices can cope with voltages up to 40V and thats considered reasonable based on surges on a 12 v system. With a 42V system, that already exceeds the input voltage of most low cost voltage regualtors and when you figure in for surges at 3x, its outside of all the low cost DC regulators. The resut is a part that is now a single 5 volt regulator may need a swtiching power supply until someone comes up with a 7812 style device that can cope with the much higher voltages.
Wouldn't that just be a waste of hybrid technology...thought it was supposed to save?
Seriously though, an AC dist system could be very flexible.(IANNT -I am not Nikola Tesla :0)
...and he grinned, like a fox eating shit out of a wire brush.
Here in our area, they were playing a lot of the old auto commericals from previous races this year, some from back in the 50's.
:)
Sort of funny listening to chevy touting their 'new advanced 12volt system'.. they must have said "12v" 20 times
---- Booth was a patriot ----
By then we can tell all those Arab countries to go F*** themselves anyways as we will have the ability to use Hydrogen as a fuel source. One of the big three already is going to supply UPS with fuel cell vehicles within I think 4 years. We just need to establish a supply chain for hydrogen refueling stations. One of my questions is what are those Arab nations going to do for revenue when their oil is no longer needed?
One of my uncles who works for DaimlerChrysler casually mentioned this to me quite some time ago. The power requirements of today's cars are increasing very rapidly. The computers used for safety features and all the "power" toys, i.e. heated seats, heated outside mirrors, power windows, locks, OnStar, onboard navigation systems that require LCD screens, automatic climate control systems, super duper bright headlights (you know the ones, those with blue beams), daytime running lights, fog lamps, antilock brakes, traction control, stability control, power sunroof, etc... are really quite demanding for the electrical system when used simultaniously. Most moderately priced autos and luxury cars have these features (Saab, BMW, Mercedes Benz, Cadillac, Hummer, Lexus, etc... Maybe some high-end Saturn L-series and Pontiacs too).
While I don't have kids yet, I was recently on vacation with the extended family, including little kids.
For various reasons, for most of vacation I was not able to use my laptop in the car (No room, also didn't want to have something that valuable being left in a parking lot in the middle of nowhere while we were hiking.)
On the way back we had a 4-5 hour drive from Grand Junction, CO to Denver. (Couldn't get a flight into GJ.)
Pulled out my laptop and some DVDs... Quietest and calmest ride of the entire trip. (Needless to say, during the week some of the rides were pure hell thanks to my cousin's hyperactive kids.)
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
One thing I've seen (and happen to have, and like), is a "slow" jumpstart device. Instead of being able to leech enough power to start the engine in one instant, it is designed to trickle charge the battery for 10-20 minutes, just enough to start the engine. It works (believe it or not) through the cigarette lighter socket, and works quite well. (You just have to wait some time before trying to start the car.)
It would be trivial for someone to start making these with a step-up DC/DC converter.
The nicest thing is that partially charging a dead battery needs little to no regulation at all...
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
The idea of smaller drive motors for the electric window motors, ventilated seat fan motors, power door locks, etc. seems like a good idea. Now if there is some way to rebuild the various black boxes mounted on the firewalls and under the hoods of cars, then car restorers will rejoice in 20 years when they want to restore a 2003 BMW 745. But why on earth GM is bringing back another take on the ill-fated V8-6-4 is a mystery. http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/tech/dod /overview.htm
Ever considered why power companies transmit their power at thousands of volts instead of 120 system-wide? Even though it means transformers wasting some power at the ends?
Simple. I^2*R losses. The power loss through a wire is the square of the current times the resistance. If you triple the voltage (Note: the system proposed is a 36/42 system, triple that of our current 12/14 system. First being nominal battery voltage, second being charging voltage.), you have 1/3 the current to deliver the same power. This means that resistive losses in the automotive wiring is 1/9 what it was previously.
Also, with a 36V system, it may become practical to drive the valves with solenoids rather than camshafts. All of a sudden the engine's "sweet spot" of maximum efficiency becomes MUCH wider. (If implemented properly, the engine could run at max efficiency at nearly any load/RPM combo with valve timing that is fully electronically controlled.)
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
check out the MIT/Industry consortium. They have links to news and research as well as all the major industrial players.
One advantage I haven't seen in any of the previous posts is that 42V provides enough power for components to be moved off of the serpentine belt and away from engine. The change from mechanically powered to electrically powered has the potential to drastically alter the design of automobiles by distributing components around the vehicle instead of everything being lumped together under the hood.
It would give an entirely new meaning to the term "Blue Screen of Death"! ;-)
9/11 Eyewitnesses to Explosive WTC Demolition 1 of 2
OH OH! I KNOW! WE'LL USE SOLAR, WIND, AND OTHER "RENUEWWWWABLE" SOURCES! Pllbbt. You'd need a wind farm from Texas to Canada to produce enough electricity to electrolize the amount of water needed to produce enough hydrogen to fuel those cars. Solar? Try covering the entire US with [extremely expensive] solar panels - can't wait for that tax hike. Ad nausium. Further, lets discuss the fact that your hydrogen fuel will be exponentially more expensive than gas. You're using the same process we use to get electricity now, using that energy to convert another substance into a fuel, then distributing that fuel in more expensive containers to more expensive outlets for public consumption. In short, we'll be getting hydrogen from fossil fuels, because it's the cheapest and easiest way to get it now and in 2020, 2040, etc.
And let's not get into the fact that a fuel cell car will be 10 - 100 times more expensive than your current car (even if the technology gets better). The membranes also break down pretty quickly, so brace for high maintenance bills. And make room for more landfills because it's cheaper to buy a new car than try and recycle the fuel cell parts.
Finally, let's discuss the fact that the average age of the car on the road is 8 years old. Which means if in 2020 we finally get to buy fuel cell cars (which is, by the way, unlikely) it'll be 2028 (plenty of time for another war) before the AVERAGE car on the road is a hydrogen based car. With the explosion of SUV's, expect us to need a lot more oil in the next 10 - 20 years, BEFORE hydrogen is an option.
You want to get away from oil you have one current choice and another in 5 years - Natural gas power or electric. Neither need fossil fuels at any stage of the process. Your current car can be converted to natural gas for under $4k, you can fill up on your home gas line, you'll save 43 barrels of oil per car per year, and it'll only cost you about a 1/2 horse per 100 horses of power. It's cleaner than gas, your car will last longer, your not depending on Bush (or any of the other dancing monkeys back east), the oil companies, car companies or anyone else. Do for yourself for once.
I know this post comes late in the game, but I haven't seen anyone post what I understand are the significant reasons for the upgrade to 36/42v power:
:-)
1. Replacing all belt driven systems in your car.
Modern cars have belts which drive your
- water pump (engine cooling),
- oil pump (engine lubrication)
- compressor (air conditioning)
- power steering ()
- alternator (power generation),
Higher voltage enables auto manufactures to *get rid of belts completely*. Your water pump, oil pump, a/c compressor, and power steering units will all be replaced with electric driven devices. And the alternator is being replaced with integrated/hybrid starter/alternators.
2. Electric Turbos
Turbos increase engine power effeciently by pushing more air into the cylinders... and more more air = bigger explosion = more engine power.
In laymans terms, Turbos make use of turbines. Turbines are basically fancy, small, high performance fans.
Turbo cars use two turbines: The first turbine sits is inside the "exhaust pipe". Exhaust gasses rush past it and in doing so spin the first turbine. That turbine is connected mechanically to the second turbine to make the second turbine spin. The second turbine ("fancy fan") pushes air into the engines intake, which feeds air into the cylinders. Thus more air in the cylinders.
The resulting power increase makes cars with Turbos go much faster than similar cars without.
The problem with Turbo is "lag" or in geek terms "latency". When your car is going slow, less exhaust is coming out of the engine. Thus, the first turbine isn't spinning much; which means the second turbine isn't pushing much (if any) additional air into the engine. But as you speed up, your exhaust speeds up too, so the first turbine spins faster; and so the second turbine spins faster and pushes more air into your engine.
The result: Turbos only start contributing power after a few seconds of acceleration. This 1-3 second latency delivers the turbo "boost" you feel a few seconds after you press the gas pedal in a Turbo car.
Electric Turbo connects the first turbine to a generator and the second to an electrically driven motor that can take its power from the alternator/battery or the first turbine. Wired this way, the second turbine can spin up quickly or even stay spun up all the time - powered initially off of alternator/battery power, and then off of electricity created by the first turbine. The result: Turbo without lag.
3. Active suspension
Automobile suspension - and thus handling - can be significantly improved by making the suspension active instead of reactive. New electric shocks can actually use electric power to "push" one side or corner of the car up. For example, in a long left turn on a highway, the right side shocks can push up, and the left side can pull down, leaning your car to the left. This leaning makes the car much more stable in the turn.
4. Hybrid cars
Hybrid cars require higher voltage systems as they actually move the car down the road using electricity. Hybrid vehicles already use higher voltage systems, but only in the engine/drivetrain components. The rest of the car is still 12v. Chaning "the rest" to 42v saves money by simplifying design & removing excess conversion components.
5. Fuel cell cars
All of this paves the way for fuel cell cars, where *everything* will be driven by a fuel cell which converts hydrogen into electricity. The more auto manufacturers replace mechanical systems with electrical, the easier it becomes to use fuel cells. Even turbos can be used with fuel cells to push more air/hydrogen into the cell and get more electrical power out of it.
So when you think of 36/42v cars, think of all the weight that's being saved by removing excess gears and pulleys that hang on the front of your belt-driven engine systems. Think of never replacing belts again, and never having them break at the wrong time. In short, over time 36/42v components should decrease cost and increase reliability.
And also think of your 2019 Dodge Viper Extreme, with 2 mega-amp Turbo Fuel Cell that does 0 to 60 in 4.1 seconds
Lead-acid cells are two volts apiece.
It's not only for audio, accesories, power steering, but also for really nifty stuff like electromagnetic ally controled valves. Picture that for fuel economy and/or maximum output.
With my current stereo rated at 12volts, I cant wait to see the power a can suck rom my D-class amps now!!! =-)
As for profit margins on luxury cars, why has Honda-Toyota-Nissan spawned Accura-Lexus-Infiniti? To cash in on the profitable luxury car market, that's why! I haven't noticed them coming out with any new econoboxes to take on Kia and Hyundai--have you?
Okay you do have a point that it does take another form of energy to do electrolysis on water, but ( I some college level knowledge of chemistry) doesn't the result of splitting H2O using another energy source result in more energy than was used to do the splitting? I could do some research on this but don't have the time. I would be interested if this worth pursuing. And I don't agree with your opinion that cars would be 10-100 times more expensive, maybe initially. Look at all technology how prices drop real quickly.
But, as usual , the first few thousand cars will implement marginal designs which will cause nearly as many stranded motorists, will force the auto owner to pay for exhorbitant modules which will fail repeatedly, thus giving the automaker more leverage at restricting the aftermarket supply of modules and thus further remove the backyard mechanic from repairing their own autos. Shame that technology has to do this, especially because NOT ONE consumer was allowed to respond when SAE sent out questionnaires on this proposal.... I know, I tried to offer comments.
Wrong. Rotor windings is only part of the equation.
...doesn't the result of splitting H2O using another energy source result in more energy than was used to do the splitting? Not unless I'm miss-remembering the laws of thermodynamics (you might be thinking of potential energy). Thermodynamics
;))
And I don't agree with your opinion that cars would be 10-100 times more expensive, maybe initially. Look at all technology how prices drop real quickly. The problem isn't the technology as much as the materials - you need a high quality electrolyte membrane between the electrode and anode. This means your materials to make the cell are made of expensive metals that aren't dependant on technology. They break down, bond and degrade under the performance requirements of a car.
In the interest of exploring the current potential cost of a fuel cell power plant I'll give you an example -
fuel cell
Here's a currently available home fuel cell technology that provides 1.2kw. For $8k. The EV1 (ford's electric car) uses 102 KW for roughly 137 HP. To power this car with a fuel cell you'd need 82 of these units, running about $680,000. Not including the cost of the engine and 'carrying case' - the seats, body, breaks, wheels. The cost of the hydrogen (note that it's derived from natural gas or PROPANE... a petroleum product, not electrolyzed water) is $100 per bottle. That means a tank of gas for those 82 units powering your car will run $8,200. Ouch.
How many technological breakthroughs in materials and science will we need to make that fuel cell cost the same (and weigh less) as the batteries in an EV1? Even with Moores Law (technology doubling at half the price) we're looking at roughly 12 years. But since fuel cells are dependant on materials sciences (not technology), Moores law will probably be a bit slower.
I'm a big fan of the fuel cell, it's just that it's touted benefits are a far... FAR cry from reality. It's like the 'American Idol' of the energy world - a lot of hype, but talent? Not so much. (It's funny, I held the same position you do about 2 years ago. Someone challenged me, I got a stick up my ass and tried to prove him wrong, and in the process swore never to admit to him that he's right.
One other thing to consider - lead acid batteries can be recycled with water cheaply. Fuel cells... pretty much can't unless someone's figured out how to unbond gold from nickle.
Not that you'll EVER read this (hell, i just barely did) but The Idle speed was the result of over-cooling. The thermostat was rusted OPEN (as in, most of the thermostat wasnt there) So the car compensated for low engine temperatures by generating more heat. My grandfather is a mechanic but he refused to actually CHECK the thermostat until I just said "Fine, I'll have someone else do it" which sometimes makes me question his wisdom ... (he did however keep that car running pretty well for a pretty long time)
They also put it in backwards and put silicon all over it to keep it from leaking.
I'm so glad I got rid of it and replaced it with a well maintained 88 Prelude, that car is FANTASTIC ...
(the guy I sold the Accord to (for 250, not running) got to fix a clip that held the axle in the transmission only to have the tranny go bad on him. *evil laugh* there was a reason I only charged 250 ... (that and my Prelude was free ... thank you christmas $$)
Personally I think the Transmission died because he had the bright idea to get the car painted ... purple. I was tempted to suggest green neon lights at the bottom for a more gay dinosaur look.
No, I am not an English major. My posts are subject to typos and incorrect grammar. Do not expect perfection.