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I think you're failing to grasp some of the points of Jabber messaging, especially as something more than basic chat. The idea (at least from the Jabber point of view) is to _NOT_ learn the IP address of the other party. You only reference them from their "username". Username is the wrong term though, we user the term JID (Jabber id). The JID format is: username@host/resource. So it is built upon a DNS like system. Once you know another users JID you can interact with it using messaging, presence, or other methods. The power of not trying to interact with an IP directly is it's ability to more cleanly go around firewalls. The client makes a connection outside of the firewall to their Jabber server (potentially through some proxy), and they are then on the entire Jabber network. Applications that are exposed on the network then have the ability to interactively use presence and a clear path to the user for more complete interaction. So perhaps you are looking at this from the wrong viewpoint?

I think you're failing to grasp some of the points of Jabber messaging, especially as something more than basic chat. The idea (at least from the Jabber point of view) is to _NOT_ learn the IP address of the other party. You only reference them from their "username". Username is the wrong term though, we user the term JID (Jabber id). The JID format is: username@host/resource. So it is built upon a DNS like system. Once you know another users JID you can interact with it using messaging, presence, or other methods. The power of not trying to interact with an IP directly is it's ability to more cleanly go around firewalls. The client makes a connection outside of the firewall to their Jabber server (potentially through some proxy), and they are then on the entire Jabber network. Applications that are exposed on the network then have the ability to interactively use presence and a clear path to the user for more complete interaction. So perhaps you are looking at this from the wrong viewpoint?

I think you're failing to grasp some of the points of Jabber messaging, especially as something more than basic chat. The idea (at least from the Jabber point of view) is to _NOT_ learn the IP address of the other party. You only reference them from their "username". Username is the wrong term though, we user the term JID (Jabber id). The JID format is: username@host/resource. So it is built upon a DNS like system. Once you know another users JID you can interact with it using messaging, presence, or other methods. The power of not trying to interact with an IP directly is it's ability to more cleanly go around firewalls. The client makes a connection outside of the firewall to their Jabber server (potentially through some proxy), and they are then on the entire Jabber network. Applications that are exposed on the network then have the ability to interactively use presence and a clear path to the user for more complete interaction. So perhaps you are looking at this from the wrong viewpoint?

I think you're failing to grasp some of the points of Jabber messaging, especially as something more than basic chat. The idea (at least from the Jabber point of view) is to _NOT_ learn the IP address of the other party. You only reference them from their "username". Username is the wrong term though, we user the term JID (Jabber id). The JID format is: username@host/resource. So it is built upon a DNS like system. Once you know another users JID you can interact with it using messaging, presence, or other methods. The power of not trying to interact with an IP directly is it's ability to more cleanly go around firewalls. The client makes a connection outside of the firewall to their Jabber server (potentially through some proxy), and they are then on the entire Jabber network. Applications that are exposed on the network then have the ability to interactively use presence and a clear path to the user for more complete interaction. So perhaps you are looking at this from the wrong viewpoint?

I think you're failing to grasp some of the points of Jabber messaging, especially as something more than basic chat. The idea (at least from the Jabber point of view) is to _NOT_ learn the IP address of the other party. You only reference them from their "username". Username is the wrong term though, we user the term JID (Jabber id). The JID format is: username@host/resource. So it is built upon a DNS like system. Once you know another users JID you can interact with it using messaging, presence, or other methods. The power of not trying to interact with an IP directly is it's ability to more cleanly go around firewalls. The client makes a connection outside of the firewall to their Jabber server (potentially through some proxy), and they are then on the entire Jabber network. Applications that are exposed on the network then have the ability to interactively use presence and a clear path to the user for more complete interaction. So perhaps you are looking at this from the wrong viewpoint?

There is talk about guaranteed msging in the future , primarily with a focus on JAM (Jabber as Middleware). A lot of this is in parallel with the next generation discussions that are happening on and off. So it is in our sites, but we're not sure how quickly it will arrive. Feel free to join our standards-jig mailing list (See our lists) and participate, few views are always welcome.

The main components of Windows are modular. Meaning, you can upgrade IE, WMP, and MSN Messenger just fine.

However, does Microsoft document the specific COM interfaces necessary to replace MSHTML (IE's HTML rendering engine) with a third-party renderer such as Gecko (Mozilla's rendering engine), or MSN Messenger with Jabber? If so, I couldn't find it on MSDN.

(sorry - but there's nothing more to say)

It seems there are always people coming up with good ideas for gpg in free software.

I would suggest looking at the Jabber Instant messaging system. It's is a very welcoming crowd, and there is much work to be done. If your into C then you can help with the server. Perl, XML, Java, Python, and whatever else your niche might be, there is a need for it.
Jabber.org

HTTP does have it's problems, and it's one of the reasons that Jabber has it's own internal transport protocol to accomplish IM.

I've seen other proposals for HTTP replacements and have been less-than-pleased by their complexity and design. Based on what I've learned from Jabber, and great feedback from many in the open source and standards communities, XATP was born:

http://xatp.org/

XATP, the eXtensible Application Transport Protocol is very simplistic and geared to operate at a layer below content, identity, framing, and other application-level issues. Check it out and offer feedback or participate if your interested.

Jer

Oscar is more-or-less implemented as a library called libfaim. I have no idea where the project is homed, but I know there is a copy in Jabber's CVS at www.jabber.org.

Despite how much you may wish AOL should play nice here, they aren't. Some posts mentioned how programmers are wasting their time reverse-engineering when they could be adding features to an AIM client. How about just not making an AIM client?

Jabber is an open instant messaging system. You may have heard of "Jabber Transports" which allow you to talk to other services. Please remember that these are only extension to the system, with the same possible flaws as Trillian. More importantly, Jabber is an IM system of its own, and works just fine. Our standard IM system is here, guys, and no one can stop us from using it. Not only is development of clients and other software encouraged, but you are given full protocol documentation. This is what co-operation is about. Making an IM client should not be a war. So quit wasting your time with these closed systems, and come join us!

Just stop using AIM, and tell your friends too also. I expected more Jabber related posts on this board, considering all the open source advocation that goes on here. If you were confused and thought that Jabber was "just another multi-IM" and nothing more, well... you have now been learned.

Despite how much you may wish AOL should play nice here, they aren't. Some posts mentioned how programmers are wasting their time reverse-engineering when they could be adding features to an AIM client. How about just not making an AIM client?

Jabber is an open instant messaging system. You may have heard of "Jabber Transports" which allow you to talk to other services. Please remember that these are only extension to the system, with the same possible flaws as Trillian. More importantly, Jabber is an IM system of its own, and works just fine. Our standard IM system is here, guys, and no one can stop us from using it. Not only is development of clients and other software encouraged, but you are given full protocol documentation. This is what co-operation is about. Making an IM client should not be a war. So quit wasting your time with these closed systems, and come join us!

Just stop using AIM, and tell your friends too also. I expected more Jabber related posts on this board, considering all the open source advocation that goes on here. If you were confused and thought that Jabber was "just another multi-IM" and nothing more, well... you have now been learned.

You just summarily described Jabber.

Just my $.02...I use Trillian as well, specifically for the reason that another user stated above. I have friends that use Yahoo, some on MSN, lots on IM, and a few on ICQ.

ALSO, Trillian supports 128-bit end-to-end encryption (Blowfish) for the AOL and ICQ protocols, which is something that no one else does. I would think that the privacy freaks (myself included) would grab it just for that.

Jabber is an openly-developed, XML-based messaging platform. As anyone might expect, it has built-in security features, from SSL server connections, to PGP signatures/encryption. A number of clients is available for various platforms.

Now, many of those formerly compelling reasons have evaporated:

IM - is a world of divided standards, so you can only talk to AOL users if you're an AOL user, MSN if your an MSN user, etc.

email - is a world where you need to sift through 20 spam messages to find your one message. Also the monoculture of email clients created a nightmare reality of viruses.

nntp - spam is certainly a problem, as is the bulk of news services no longer carrying binaries.

Search - pay per search, or commercially-supported search (ie - paid-for results placement).

Stock Trading - find me a stock worth investing in today. It was half a function of cheap trading, but also half a function of stocks where you could actually make money.

Nobody can afford to host anymore, so people's websites are either overrun with popups or they're very small, and hosted on very slow hardware, and anyone posting material of any worth has been shut down due to copyright concerns.

Anything interesting or non-mainstream is either impossible to find now, or shut down.

I recently went through my bookmarks.html list, of 500k, accumulated over the past 8 years or so - and a good 70% of the URLs were dead. Making me regret not saving the content to my local hard drive. (and I have saved a great deal anyway).

Free Music - the age of napster is finished.

Free Software - I'm not talking about Free Software, I'm talking about that which the BSA is making extinct. Warez. Right or wrong, it was one major compelling reason people got onto the internet.

The only compelling things left I can see are: email/im - despite the fact that they're not what they used to be, they're still very useful, but there's no need for broadband here.

Corporate Software websites - where you can usually get up to date drivers and updates. Most of the time, broadband isn't required.

Free Software - If you're a Linux-head - you still need broadband for downloading those isos.

Marketing - ah yes. If you're an advertiser, the internet is your friend, and a very compelling reason to get broadband, or even a T1. That is, until everyone who has signed up for the internet in the past 3 years finally realizes that there's nothing out there for them but advertising and crap, and drop the service.

If you think you have a better solution to these problems, how about proposing them, and actually DO something about it. Complaining here on Slashdot is not a guarantee that things will change.

AOLTW isn't afraid to play fair.

What about the AIM wars of the past couple years? Seems to me a "fair" company would adopt an open spec instead of trying to lock the world into their system/servers.

You do realise the difference. You pay for your net connection. You don't pay for your AIM connection. By agreeing (indirectly) to view ads, you are funding AIM.

I do realise the difference, which is why I supplimented this flawed analogy with the perfect analogy (to email services) which you deleted. I can send email to an AOL email user without using an approved client; why can't I do the same with an instant message? The answer is simply that AOL didn't capture enough of the email marketshare to attempt to entrap it; they did capture (or purchase via ICQ) enough of the instant messaging marketshare to do so.

Unless you come up with a better system than a proven centralized one, what can you do.

I can wait for someone else to come up with a better system than a proven centralized one. Jabber works the same way email works, with no "central post office". Backwards compatibility, if it wasn't thwarted by AOL, would then allow users who so desired to transition to this new system without losing their old contacts. In the end, AOL would only have to host AOL users on their own servers, and would retain the money-making aspects of their system (an incentive for more AOL subscribers) while dropping the money-losing aspects (What's the going rate on ad impressions today? Probably not enough to pay for the AIM server maintenance).

I'm an AOL stockholder; I don't want them throwing money away. But they're throwing it away, because they're too big to have been bitten hard enough by the dot-com lesson of how rarely selling services at a loss (or for ad money alone) makes sense. The only reason they're still running their system like this is because they believe they can keep their users a captive audience forever. It won't work that way: Microsoft is much better at the captive user game, and a few generations of Windows with "easy built in MSN instant messaging" will prove it.

provides API (though not the nicer one) for writting your own client

Sure, if you want to write a crippled AIM clone to rope a larger set of users into AOL's IM network. If you want to actually create a compatible alternative to AOL's network, expect to be blocked at every turn.

Damned shortsighted fools. If the rest of the internet worked like this we'd still be dialing in to BBSes.

Taking this...
Besides, as with the many alternative mp3 players, there are other linux distrobutions out there.
...into account and your dislike of AOL as a company, why choose to use AOL's ICQ software? There are plenty of alternative ICQ clients out there.

I think the big killer app for linux, if someone can come up with one, will be a new, or at least cheap and easy, way of communicating

I think this would fit the bill. Not so much the instant messaging part, but the concept of using it as a generic XML router.

Its true. I have noticed a consistent trend of both Linux and Windows products that show very little design and detail. It feels like the developers just wrote enough to get what they want done, then they just quickly hack in the rest of the features. A good example of this is Jabber. I can't find one client that works with all of the server's features (the server developers break them and provide no backwards compatability), and they all are unstable and buggy as hell. This is just one example, many more products are similar. I don't want this kind of sh!t on my mac.

I stopped using ICQ years ago because it was so script-kiddie friendly and AIM not long after. I'm quite happy using Jabber with a gateway to Yahoo Messenger, thankyouverymuch.

http://www.w00w00.org/advisories/aim.html is a better link.

Hey, if you guys want open-source IM, check out http://www.jabber.org The server is open-source and it's a distributed XML-based network. Lots of different, cool clients too. JabberIM for Windows, and Gabber for Linux are the most mature ones though. There are bridges to the AIM and ICQ networks available on some servers, but the ones on Jabber.org have been blocked by AOL... nice huh?

What's the catch? The AOL and Microsoft IM clients still can't communicate with each other.

Apparently, they haven't heard of gabber and all its flavors.

And in the workplace, IM could replace Web surfing as the goof-off activity of choice.

It already has!!!

Presence technology? M$'s Passport? There goes our privacy!

Internet connection: Cable or DSL broadband if you're lucky; 56-kbps modem if not.

How about making DSL accessible and affordable in remote places: islands, rural areas ...

Operating system: Some version of Windows (you expected Linux, perhaps?)

Actually, YES I WAS! It would appear that XP is starting to get half way close to what Linux can offer.

Wrong title, but good technology
One of the things it's got going for it are the basics, if you read the material on it, you will see it has taken the spirit of UNIX pipes and shells and extended it to P2P. This is a very powerfull Philosophy being applied to a modern concept, and I think it hols a little water. Having spent a lot of time disseminating various P2P technologies, I think this and jabber have a good basic ideas, a fusion of both would be even better

I've got the karma to burn, so let me just don my "Captain Obvious" hat here...

America Online? Open standards? You're joking, right?

I seriously doubt that I need to explain myself here.

And don't even think about pointing me in this direction.

They're using XML? They could integrate this with some sort of retrieval language and couple it with Jabber clients. That way you could send some sort of command-line search/retrieval command to the database using a regular Jabber client and have the XML data sent back, since Jabber natively supports the standard.

Pardon my ignorance, but does this mean we are a little closer to having a universal Instant Messaging program? I'm sick of needing to open so many programs (AIM, ICQ, Yahoo Messenger, MSN Messenger) to talk to different people. A single universal program would be awesome. I think the big companies should come together to create one standard (preferably open-source) for instant messaging, although I doubt it will happen. I know there are a bunch of people out there already attempting to do this (jabber.org).

Considering AOL wasn't exactly thrilled with "Unauthorized" versions of their messaging software (Jabber) I wonder how long it will take them to have a stroke over this.

Hmm. Interesting way of putting it..

Except the thing is: Glorified identd+finger actually sounds like a pretty good idea, to me. I could go for that. I'd be happier just integrating that functionality into Jabber, though.. I mean, as long as we're putting talk(1) there, you might as well go all the way :)

Well, whatever.

While this post seems to be less flamebait than it is uninformed, I must admit that the statement that we will see no more advances in web technology is ludicrous. Besides that statement, XML is definitely not simply a web technology. Several major applications, such as jabber, rely on XML to operate. Granted most websites will probably never use XML, but then it was never intended to replace HTML. As for the lack of CSS3 and XSL support, if you would be so quick to complain, why not get to work on Mozilla and do something about it?

Jabber clients offer GPG encryption of chats and presence declarations. Open specs and all provided in extra-crunchy streaming xml!

'AOL said that it's almost done developing the technology that would allow its messaging services to operate with those offered by other industry players.'

Well, maybe they don't know it, but they must already be done, because Trillian connects to their servers. It's not open source, but it does connect w/ AIM, Yahoo, MSN, ICQ, and IRC. Additionally, whatever services you don't use, you can modifiy an .ini file so as to not use the .dll for that service...decreasing the already low memory usage of the application. And the multitude of skins kick ass.

I tried Jabber, but didn't find any projects that were currently connecting to AIM or that were as far along as Trillian for that matter.

It's not GPL. It use it's own Jabber Open Source License. At least it's approved by the Open Source Initiative.

I'm always suprised how little support the Jabber project is getting. They've done some fantastic things there.

The Jabber system can communicate with almost every IM system out there (ICQ, MSN, etc.) There's even IRC support.

Also, the whole thing is completely cross-platform. There are even clients for handhelds (http://www.jabbercentral.org/clients/).

And do I have to mention it's entirily GPL?

I already can. I set up a Jabber server with AIM, MSN, ICQ, and Yahoo support. When I log on I can get messages from any of the services in a single client right now. Jabber rules!

It has been greatly commented that companies tend to depend on external IM (ICQ, Yahoo, MSN, you name it). I'm amazed that noone has mentioned Jabber! That's one server you can deploy (*NIX only for the moment, Win experimental) and it provides some nice features for the business (and jabber.com deals with business); encryption, automatic 'buddies' (so everyone gets as a default everyone in their department) and it's very light and available in nearly all platforms, with a nice variety of clients.

It's quite useful that you can run your own server, no?

Isn't this something like AIM's authentication for the oscar protocol? Many groups (trillian, jabber, gaim) have found ways around that. Is it conceivable to trick the Napster servers in a similar way? Not that anyone who would bother with CVS nightlies hasn't already found a better alternative.

The trademarks were not given approval until 2001-01-23.

Kaim started more then a year before that and Gaim started in 1998.

If a company abandons a trademark for 3 years it is considered lost.

In 1999 AOL sent us a legal letter asking us to remove the aol images and name from our applications, they did not in any way refer to the aim name as one of the things we had to remove. By doing this they showed that they did not have a vested interest in the name which can *void*there trademark application which states that they first started using it back in 97 when it wasn't until recently that they cared about it. Also by not telling us to remove the name then, they were in essence giving us the right to use the name.

Gaim and Kaim can be argued are different enough from the word aim to be ok.

The reason that they sent us the notice of infringement was that they fear that kaim and gaim would "dilute" the aim name, when in fact both of our applications are superior to the official AOL linux client. In that regard you can argue that their clients were diluting the trademark and we would boosting it!

But even with all these things going for us this is a pure case of the big bad company beating up on the loyal fans. Here we had given our sweat and tears making an application to connect with and in the end promoting them. They have made it harder and harder to do this and for me this is the last straw.

As of the next release of Kaim it will have a new name. You can submit name ideas to kaim-developer@lists.sourceforge.net Submit a funny name and a real name. :) For those of you who have been using Kaim we thank you. Kaims current status is very stable. Because of that I will be fixing up the last few bugs and releasing the next version as 1.0 To bad it can't be called Kaim.

The official kde aol client kit is being revamped as a jabber client. The Kaim development team will most likely move over and join the kit team. Kaim has done what Iset out to do. It is a stable aim client with a clean interface. But that was then this is now. Next comes the Jabber client. If you are trying to decide what im server you should go to Iwould recommend jabber. Did you know you can run your own jabber server? Heck jabber is so much better then aim it isn't funny. This probably isn't the end of aol's attack so get out now. Be part of the resistance! Get yourself and others away from aim. Here are two links to jabber sites.

http://www.jabber.org/
http://gabber.sourceforge.net/

Oh and one last thing... Hehe I don't mean to start something, but in a way (not really, but you get what I mean) it is now kinda illegal to have kaim and gaim on your computers. So stick it to the man and where is your mirror?

If you wish to contact me you can do so at icefox@mediaone.net

Maybe it's time for an Open Source Instant Messaging protocol, client, and server combo to avoid the whole mess.

You mean like the Jabber/Gaim/jabber.org combination?

http://jabber.org

I've got one word for you: Jabber.
-----

How much will a rewrite of the spec gain you? The protocol would have to be backwards compatible with all the existing clients? How would users on old clients feel about all their online buddies being reduced to numbers?

The IRC protocol has done its dash. Its time for something completely different. Something extensible, something that better reports online presense. Check out IMUnified or Jabber.org. Jabber even provides an IRC gateway (converting its native XML based protocol to the IRC protocol).

Really, let's just move on. Instant messaging should be free and open like HTTP and E-mail. Just because some corporations made some closed IM server/clients first does not mean that there is no hope.

Everyone, please just go try out Jabber. In the past, people have mentioned that the clients are not quite up to par as other IM clients, but it just might be worth the sacrifice to switch. Who cares if the AIM transport doesn't work? Tell your AIM-using friends to switch also.

Heck, I've already begun writing my own Jabber client. How's *that* for wanting to get away from these corporate controlled servers?

-Justin

However, that is not the whole story. Members of various AIM-interoperability groups (most notably, Jabber) have repeatedly offered to work with AOL to find a mutually acceptable solution to this problem. People with legitimate AOL IM accounts want to access those accounts through non-AIM clients. AOL, though not legally required to, ought to work with them instead of fighting them. It is never good business sense (IMHO) to fight, sue, or otherwise harrass your customers.

AOL is exploring the limits of their legal and technical abilities to exclude people from their network. They are within their rights. But we are also within our rights in exploring our legal and technical abilities to fight back. At the very least, we ought to find out what is and is not legal. And, more importantly, we should do whatever we can to make it clear to big corporations that they are better off working with us than against us.

However, the new "web client services" shows some promise.

You are so totally wrong! Jabber is first and foremost an IM service in it's own right. Because of the open design, it just so happens you can write a gateway to translate between Jabber and any other IM system out there (or email or HTTP or whatever). But there are thousands of people using Jabber every day to chat with other people solely through Jabber without any connection to AOL, Microsoft, or anyone else.

Read this to learn what Jabber really is.

Jabber.org and Jabber.com (and any other parties would be most certainly welcome) are working together to establish a Jabber Foundation along the lines of the Apache and Gnome Foundations to assist in addressing many of the issues surrounding Jabber being raised here. We've just completed a survey to help us gather some suggestions for addressing these issues and have gotten some great results. One of the many initiatives we're undertaking, in addition to improved documentation, enhanced client development, and extended user involvement, is formal support for the ongoing IMPP work, in particular CPIM, SIP and BEEP. If you'd like more information, email me or info@jabber.org. Peace!

This story links to jabber.com (which is fine) but if you're looking for the open source project you might want to hit jabber.org. The open source project is where it all started, and jabber.com is just one of the many commercial efforts working to help jabber be a better tool for the business world and enterprises.

We're still a young project and have many hurdles to leap yet, so if you bump into anything you'd like to see improved with jabber, it's open source and we welcome any/all assistance :)