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What Software Should ISPs Distribute and Support?
BroadbandBradley asks: "Many ISPs give their customers a software package to install with their service like a branded browser/email package. Some also include network diagnostics tools, even remote connection VNC packages for technical reps to do remote support. The ISP will then tell customer that they'll only get help if they're using that package. What features are good or bad, and what should or shouldn't be included on the client side? My question to Slashdot readers is, what software and services should ISPs distribute and support?"
Hmm, i bet all i have to do is say, "Linux and Mozilla" and people will mod this up.
--
Mod up a post Rob doesn't like and you'll never mod again
No matter what we support, the answer to most calls is still "Reboot, reconnect it should work now". No matter what is installed, 80% of our calls will be OS related problems.
"Science is about ego as much as it is about discovery and truth " - I said it, so sue me.
Browsers: netscape, internet explorer, opera /2k
Email: outlook, outlook express, eudora, pegasus, pine, and which ever other linux mail clients are in wide spread use.
OS: Mac OS, Solaris, Linux, Windows 98 / XP
Add a few news readers etc...
--- Users are like bacteria -> Each one causing a thousand tiny crises until the host finally gives up and dies.
What's the use of VNC if you're unable to get connected !
Ha ! A can opener in a can !
(sorry - but there's nothing more to say)
the answer is "only products that you have researched and are familiar with". That means that the software is well documented and that you have links to known bugs & other issues. It helps if you have an inside person in that company too. Keep a knowledge base for your employees to eliminate redundant wild goose chases.
On a side note, you must be pretty brave to be starting a business in a saturated market during an economic downturn. Know something we don't? Most ISPs have already been absorbed by the national chains (AOL, Yahoo, etc...). Good luck.
"What is the sound of one belly slapping?"
How about distributing and supporting some kind of virus scanning/cleaning software. NAV or McAfee come to mind. Have the cost of an enterprise liscense added in to the cost of subscription or something. It would definitely help with Virus outbreaks.
Software is too expensive to support. On the dsl service I am product manager for, we don't send out ANY software. user configs the pc to pull an ip via dhcp or use static. simpler by far than asking users to install something that invariably breaks.
alternative browsers, ftp clients, software required for connecting to the ISP servers and that's it...the ISPs should not intrude on the users personal computer other than with software required to use the connection.
internet like monkeys'
In my experience with several midwest, rural companies, the support is non-existant even for their own packages. When the phone company first started offering internet access, the support just wan't there. Learning from their packages and mistakes would be a good first step.
In their case they included a netscape browser and a small program for setting up a dial-up account. This is all the support I think is really needed. A single CD with various browsers and an easy/small application for chosing what one wishes to install would do the trick. The problem with including much software is confusion, both on the side of the customer and customer support. At least in my experience, getting any decent support is impossible, so simplicity is very important.
Go ahead and mod me down for being a troll or offtopic, but take a look at the other posts here. They prove that the question was dumb to begin with.
To be more explicit, this question is unanswerable in its current form. More information is needed:
What user base are you going after? Linux users? Windows users? What OSes are you going to support? What does your technical support organization look like? Are you gunning for experienced surfers? Total newbies?
they should give you an internet browser that doesnt just put their logo into IE. something better than Netscape and IE would be nice.
But you got an ``off topic''.
Maybe i'll hit the target with "ISP and Mozilla"... perhaps a bit of "Yup, that's what i been running on my debian box... good ol' loki", with a dash of "Imagine a beofwulf cluster of those", when seemingily not referring to anything.
0xC3
Find some good open source freeware like Mozilla and distribute it. Then the entire would can support the product ;o) .
...unplug the power cord from the back of your modem, wait 30 seconds...no not the ethernet cord...no, power...yes, it DOES have a poer cord...
Charter Communications tech support is hell!
The ISP will then tell customer that they'll only get help if they're using that package.
This isn't a real big help. I have found that most times I know more about the ISP's network than the average support rep does.Most Isp give out a web browser and a mail tool this is the minimum.
They should deffently know how to install and configure every version of windows dail up networking, I know that every one is a linux fan but try teaching that to some one makeing $8-16 an hour.
I personaly feel that all an ISP is responsiblle for is getting you dailed up and conected to the internet so they support their mail client their choice of browser and know how to get you conected and that is it
madness takes its toll please have exact change
I work for an isp that does mainly dsl and dialup service. As far as software goes, we'll support anything, but most people are running Outlook Express and Internet Explorer. 98% of my software calls are these two programs.
:(
There really is no reason we can't support any email program, but people just aren't using them at home.
As far as the VNC idea, great in practice, but how hard is it to configure any web browser or email program over the phone? If something would require VNC, then it's something that you probably shouldn't be tech-ing, refer them to the hardware manufactor. I'm not saying I'm lazy, but my company isn't paying me to fix your virus scan, printer, and hard drive.
Finally what I would like to see is ISP's forcing people to use HARDWARE MODEMS. Nothing is more frustrating then trying to tech a compaq with a crappy HSP modem that doesn't work if you're using more then 50% of your cpu.
And sell the info you collect to whoever wants it.
I used to work (and still work within the same parent company) for a pretty large ISP in Southern California. I was unfortunate enough to be tasked with making a software CD. I decided to obviously put Windows software on the disks (Netscape, IE, Opera) and a couple newsreaders and email clients. I also threw on their Opera for Linux and a couple other things. The best answer to the question is: include software in which the tech staff is comfortable with. Obviously, if you include Joe's super Browser(TM) then your going to have problems with support. However, most calls are either OS related "Reboot" or email questions because the person doesnt type in their username correctly. On the flip side, you mine as well include as much software as you can get to fill the CD up because most of the time to make many copies it does not cost more depending on the space, just the volume. Hell, if you want you could always include some linux distro. Then support gets really fun.
Gizmo
come with at least a browser of some sort, you should not distribute anything really.
Give the user the choice. Create a nice initial site that the new user connects to with links to common software. Also provide a page that gives detailed instructions on how to setup their email client, web browser, etc.
Be one of the few to promote user choice!
The ISP will then tell customer that they'll only get help if they're using that package.
I hope this goes without saying, but remember that the software isn't your product - connectivity is. Don't ever try and pull "You don't use our software, so I'm not gonna tell you info about our network so you can connect yourself". This is a very frustrating attitude to come up against.
As for drool-proof software, I have little prefernce, since it'll probably be for some proprietary operating system. But remember that the software should be optional - your product is an IP and reliable packet flow.
It used to be that the basic software that local isp would send you was a browser (90% of the time it was Netscape) and an email program (like pegasus) that was mostly since most OSes didn't come with anything at all (win 3.x, old Mac OS)
but now unless you have a portal what's the point in handing anything out as more then a "nice option" ??
VNC for support is just silly (like someone said above) no connection no support
only thing I would see as usefull would be a virus scanner or something like that.
"there is a marmot in the bucket ? I'll go fix that." (don't ask)
give me the phone number, and my email information, you can keep your damn crap off MY machine. I have had Road runner cable, various DSLs, and some dialups, I have yet to put there software on my machine.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
As a tech support monkey for an ISP, i must say that no matter what you give the end users they will entertain you with many new interesting ways to destroy it.
Btw, any problems they have is *always* your fault.
I'm about to start confiscating thier computers and giving them WebTV, or something like it. Another Monolithic-Centralised-Multi-User system here, and dumb terminals there. At least when stuff gets broken i don't have to hold thier hand and walk them through it. I can just fix it myself, instead of explaining the difference between "left click" and "right click". Or minutes of gumshoe work and interrogation to try to determine wtf machine they have on thier end.
I find it disturbing that someone would dump in excess of $1200 on an appliance, and not even pay attention to the brand name, much less anything as slightly technical as if it runs Microsoft Windows or Mac OS.
And you think i'm making this up, huh?
-phaeton
"Many ISPs give their customers a software package to install with their service like a branded browser/email package. Some also include network diagnostics tools, even remote connection VNC packages for technical reps to do remote support."
How the heck is an ISP tech support going to use VNC to do remote support if the customer can't connect to the Internet? Unless you're talking about silly little problems like "How do I change my start page?" I don't think VNC is going to help much.
As far as diagnosing problems, both Windows and Linux OSes already have enough utilities built in to diagnose a problem. The only issue is whether or not a user is smart enough to use them. I'm sure any tech support person can testify how long it takes some people just to understand how to do a "Click Start, then Run."
They should be required to install Linux.
Ok but seriously. If they were running Linux VNC and SSH come to mind. Then the tech support person will never had to talk to a person on the phone and deal with things like
"Ok press the button on the screen."
"Ok I'm pressing my finger against the monitor screen.."
If the tech could do the work directly himself rather than relaying what needs to be done through an inexperienced, incompetent human, things will get done much faster. The user only needs to give the person a username/password to log in.
As far as I know for windows, VNC is the only thing that would help a situation like stated above.
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
ISP's should not distribute any software whatsoever. If they chose to distribute software, or are paid to distribute software they should make it clear whether or not the software is necessary in order to use that ISP. It is OK in some instances such as Cable or DSL to include software only for the purpose of establishing a connection for security reasons.
Prime examples, 1 good and 1 bad.
Let's start with the worst, AOL. AOL requires a large piece of memory eating, slow as crap software to connect to the internet and use their service. Everything is proprietary, slow and crappy. I mean, proprietary is sometimes ok, but not if it's slower than the standard.
SNET internet http://www.snet.net. Their dial up service is exceptional. They give you a cd, but you don't need it. You can use any standard PPP connection software, like the ones built into windows or linux. All the software does it re-configure explorer to say brought to you by snet. If you don't mind it, install it. Their DSL while being fast, amazing, cheap, and everything else is equivalent. It comes with the same non-essential explorer customizing software. And it comes with the little program they use to establish the dsl connection. This is so they can require a name and password and transmit it securely. The software runs under windows. But I've made the dsl work in linux.
The best ISP in the world, college. Plug computer into wall. Auto configure lan connection with dhcp. Open any type of internet software, it works, fast, and reliable. No extra software needed.
Thats how it should be.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
Don't give them some heavily branded browser that is going to start a lot of junk every time you log in. Simpler is better. Don't install protocols they don't need. When I first got my cable modem, @home tried to install Microsoft Networking, a heavily branded browser and a bunch of other junk. Luckily my computer was still in transit so I just grabbed the modem and the numbers and didn't have to call them back. Why on earth would you want MS networking for a home computer to surf the net?
Do give them a minimal version of os requirement. If you tell them they need to have windows 95, and that you don't support win3.x, then you know they have a telnet client and will support that, for example.
Do require a minimum version of both ie and netscape. And then write your web pages to support both equally. Do provide unbranded versions of those browsers on cd and support the installation.
Do give them a web interface to their e-mail. Support that. And remember the minimal browser recommendation.
Do give them a real pop account so that those people that know what they are doing can set up their preferred e-mail client. Don't support those clients officially. This gives you control over the interface so your help people will always know what the customer is using.
For ftp, just pick a program you like. ws_ftpLE on the windows side and something on the mac.
Now the tough choices, newsgroups and chat. Since the chat clients are going back and forth on interoperability, you'll have to make 2 decisions. You'll have to decide if you are going to support a chat client. I'd personally say no, and here's why. Customers will want to use the client that all of their friends use, so if you tell them you won't support msn chat but will support icq, for example, you could lose customers. The alternative is to support the 3 or 4 major clients, and no more. The problem is that you'll have to keep up with lot's of different version which could be a problem. Of course, I don't do the icq/chat thing so take that with a grain of salt.
Which brings us to newsgroups. You need to decide if you are going to host them at all, just non-binaries or something in the middle. I'd say that the best reader for windows is Agent. So maybe you could get a licensing deal with them and spread the cost around. The alternative, outlook, doesn't enter into the picture because of security problems.
But that's just my thoughts.
I work at a small isp that has not been absorbed by a monster yet, and we don't even distribute these disks. We use the microsoft dun, macos's dialer, or whatever for linux. We try to support anything you can bring at us, even stupid things like Microsoft word, or antivirus problems. The bad part about the disks, is that if you sign up over the phone, you have to wait for the disks, we just set them up over the phone.
It's not impossible to get good service from a small ISP, you just have to look.
For Unix Support, one thing you absolutely need to do is set up a secure server. This server will be the launching pad for your support operations. You must make sure this server is as secure as possible, IP Filtering, IDS (network/host), restricted shells, sudo should all be setup on this box. Now, what we have found out that works extremely well, is distribute your own public key with your own sshd_config file. You will a ssh daemon using this config file which should be listening on a restricted ( but often unused ) port. The ISP config file should allow RSA Authentication (no passwords) along with host based authentication and root logins. Now, your public key should be setup for host based authentication as a specific restricted user ( sudo ). Now when this is setup on the clients box you will be able to log in as root from your restricted server as a specified user. That is the best way I believe this should be done with Unix. With windows there is terminal services (VNC), and Mac OS 9.x there is timbuktu and OS X there is remote desktop. Have fun!
For the browser, have something that's freely available- I.E. (No pun intended) Netscape and/or Internet Explorer. I lean more tword the Netscape side myself because it's not part of Microsoft, and I've found it actually to be a bit faster in rendering pages, more stable, and just overall better. NS6.x is also up to the W3 standards, IE make 'em up. The reason for something freely available is that a person can upgrade on a whim, and it won't cost you any. If you get Opera or some other pay browser, you've got to relicense (I think), and that'll cost you a bit. For mail, I'd say Eudora. When I intern'd at Cornell University, we used Eudora, and it was perfect. Easy setup, stable, etc... Remember that no matter what you include in your software pack, there will be subscribers that don't use what you supply. I never installed anything that came with Road Runner on my computer, one reason was that I run linux most of the time, the other reason was that everything was setup the way I liked it Windows, and I didn't want any more software to mess up the system.
The larger the ISP, the larger the marketing department, and consequently, the less I trust bundled ISPware.
I've been to the homes of n00bs, and seen some truly sickening stuff - one poor person was paying $19.99 per month (the same as any other user), for a custom browser that (a) crashed reproducibly on certain specific emails, (b) beamed banner ads every 30 seconds, and (c) looked like nothing I'd ever seen before - like the worst of Netscape, IE, and AOL rolled into one.) I think it was called Encompass. (Acquired, not coincidentally, by Yahoo in 1999).
Since I saw that, I no longer patronize ISPs that require the use of branded products.
So my answer to your question would be "I don't give a damn what you may distribute and support, so long as there's an easily-located web page or phone support script that allows me to find the IP addresses of your primary/secondary DNS servers, and the FQDNs of your POP, SMTP, NNTP, FTP and news servers, what number I can use to connect, and what to enter as a name/password combination when I do."
What you do with the n00bz is your own business.
Yes, you may not be using adware/spyware/malware - but because I don't trust you, I'm not gonna install your bundle to find out. If I can't set up the box without your branded bundle, I'll just take my business elsewhere.
No, seriously. The selling point of any ISP should be the connection itself. Every dollar spent on hiring a programmer to embed the ISP's icon in a custom version of netscape is a dollar that could have been better spent on more hardware, or more competent sysadmins to keep the connection running smoothly.
Feel free to give the user suggestions about what software to use, and point them to where they can obtain those applications, but don't waste resources putting together silly custom software packages that 1) eat up memory and cpu on the users' machines, and 2) half the users don't install anyway.
We can walk you through setting it up, but if it has a legit problem, we refer you to the manufacturer :) Call Microsoft :)
What, me worry?
Just give me a good connection, I'll handle my software.
Ralin, Cowboy From Hell
Perhaps they need to have one all singing all dancing package for mac and windows that is geared towards newbies.
...
And then another one where you get bit of paper with server settings for the more advanced users.
What they really need are competant tech support people - i'm not saying that all isp support people are incompetant (some are in fact VERY competant) but a fair proportion are.
I'd like to recount my experience with at&t@home:
me> My connection is down, the modem doesn't seem to be able to establish ip connectivity after it's locked up and down streams
tech> Try rebooting
me> done that
tech> Power cycle the modem
me> done that
tech> Did you get the email about the changeover to attbi?
me> nope (presumably since I dont check my at&t address and they have another one on file anyway)
tech> ahhh, you need to check your email
me> but i'm not online
tech> but if you read this mail then it'll tell you how to get online
me> i dont think you understand what i'm saying...
tech> no you dont understand what i'm saying, the email will tell you how to get online.
... this goes on for sometime
I'm on windows computer so I use Microsoft Internet explorer I don't use netscape because it's owned by aol and since I don't know were to find anything better.
This was written to use up your time hahahssa alaahsdhaj asdjfkjafjkfsd gsdd.dsgfsg gf.fs dsf dfdfds gffgfd
When I signed up with my ISP, they asked if I needed any software. I told them "No, I've already got just about everything I need, and I know where to go to get more." Their response was basically "Cool." No questions on what OS I was running, which browser.... They provide setup instructions for Windows, Mac and Linux, and will offer limited network connectivity/application support for those platforms (and some router support for DSL customers). But if you're running Warp Browser on OS/2 (for example), they'll provide you with the network settings and do what they can to get you connected. Other than that, you'd be on your own.
These days, just about every OS out there comes with all the tools a user needs to get online. If the ISP wants to provide software, the best thing they could do is host a TUCOWS (or similar) mirror, with an easy-to-negotiate interface and search engine.
I realize that a lot of people need more hand-holding than this, but I personally found it refreshing to deal with an ISP that treats you with a little intelligence....
Back in my previous life I worked for a systems integrator that consulted with ISPs. I suggested a tool called Gearbox for tech support because our clients that used it all loved it. Its kinda for the newbie or user who doesn't give a flip about his computer works but what he can do with it. Its got a kickbutt tool called Support Agent that helps a CSR solve most common problems in less then a minute. There's more info on it here
Oh as an aside, stay far away from a package called BroadJump. Its expensive bloatware crap etc.
mosts ISPs tend to support IE and netscape, and for e-mail they basicly support outlook and the messenger that comes with netscape. but that's where it ends. isps shouldn't support more, but have the user try, try again, read the readme file, try, try again,...
My provider handles netscape, IE, and outlook, and that's about it. For linux questions they refer to pages set up by their users that hint on Redhat and Suse, but they don't support it officially and tech support 'll hang up on you if you mention linux (even if the problem is on their end, which does happen from time to time)
Don't spend time on explaining to users how to set up VPN tunnels. Most users that need one, know how to set one up, and those that don't know how usually have no need for the VPN or figure it out by themself.
Good luck on the overcrowded market, and don't forget to shout "ME TOO!"
I'd say one alternative to IE and its email client
a simple ftp client
a network diagnostics tool like ws ping pack
a network monitor like netstat live
the ISP's IM of choice
a firewall(I can't believe they don't give you the one they find most compatible with their services)
adobe acrobat reader
a media player option of their choice
an optional linux/unix/mac set of disks with similar software they're willing to support
Distribution is really up to the ISPs themselves. Ideally an ISP's CD will contain DUN updates, generic modem drivers, etc, so that the techs can get users only faster without having to send out disks or send the customer to the OEM. Then again, this can cause liability concerns. Honestly support is the biggest question and really where most ISPs need to focus. My personal feeling is that ISPs should officially support only the software that they feel their department can easily get proficient in and is widely used (IE, Netscape, Eudora, OE, etc..), but "off the records" I believe they should support everything and anything. I work as a senior tech for an ISP ( and run one of the largest helpsites on the Internet, http://www.modemhelp.net ), and our opinion is to "do whatever it takes" for the customer. If we don't know how to setup a Palm, well too bad, we'll support it anyhow. I mean, we have Google, what more do we really need? You say you don't support Callwave, but why not support Callwave, when you can jump to their page and look at their help documents, reading them with a better understanding than the average user then translating for the customer? Unfortunately many ISPs have very strict policies that do not allow techs to attempt support outside of certains boundaries. The thing is, there many are ISPs like us that will go outside of those boundries and this is what sets most support departments apart. Though in the end (in theory) we *shouldn't* do support for those software packages that we do not know much about, it ends up not mattering because the client will go to those who *will try* to support those software packages that they are unfamiliar with. -Bradford Liedel Webmaster, ModemHelp.Net
Bradford L.
http://www.modemhelp.net
The big problem with the whole ISP model and all goes to the "one size fits all" issue.
For some people, an ISP is a TCP/IP connection. Beyond that maybe they give you an email address, usenet, and some web space, but primarily its a TCP/IP connection. For those of us who view it that way, we don't want any software, we don't need any tech support, we only want to bother you when our 1's and 0's are getting to our home network.
For other people, an ISP is that "magical gateway to the Internet". These people have just bought their first PC (or been given one) and are still mastering the concepts of mice and keyboards. There is no web browser to this person there is only Internet Explorer. Mentioning SMTP will send them into a panic. These people need a whole lot of hand holding.
The ironic thing? Both of these extremes of people are paying the exact same amount per month. (Granted the first group may be using more bandwidth, but relatively speaking bandwidth is cheap compared to those warm bodies manning the phones.)
So, I think the real issue would be to tailor the software to the user class and tailor the price as well. (Maybe this is why AOL was able to charge a premium.) I wonder what would happen if we tried to introduce a license for driving the ol' "Information Super Highway"?
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
With all the recent and I guess continued issues with security do you really want to install a program that allows somebody from you ISP to connect to your computer remotely? Even if the intentions are good it only takes 1 rogue tech support person to own your entire client list.
My ISP (BT Internet) offers a program for download called 'BT Internet Dialer'. I don't use it because I can use a normal Dial-up networking connection. The dialer wouldn't offer any benefit, but it likely would pull some crap like opening a browser window for the ISP's portal when I dial up with it.
As a guide, don't make it:
And that's all I can think of, I'm afraid.
Michael
"Goodness me, how unlike the FBI to abuse the trust of the American public." -- The Onion
Ideally you'd have some sort of application that a user could launch to show ip address, run a traceroute, ping, and run a system configuration reporter. This should be a program that they can run from the disk without an install procedure.
"OK, Click on Start then Run. Now type win i - p - c - f as in Frank - g."
"Is that all one word."
"Yes. Are you done?"
"Yes."
"OK, what does it say."
"Um, Command not found. Is this why Norton AV is beeping?"
Once you know their getting an IPaddr half the battle's over. Remote control would be useful to help fix someone's email settings, but a good FAQ would be better. Some of the ISP setup FAQs are hideous or just plain wrong. If they'd spend a few hours cleaning them up it would probably cut down considerably on their tech support calls.
I wouldn't recommend any remote control software though, since it would be way too easy for the session passwords to leak out.
A Linux user session is more like:
"Dude, http to g33kp0rn.net is timing out."
"What you say? Check ECN. RTFW for God's sake."
"ECN? Shit. Sorry."
I've gotten CDs from various ISPs over the years. The only one I've ever kept (or even used) was one that had every single RFC ever written burned onto it. Massively helpful, instructive, and educational from a historical standpoint.
When I was working residence network support at Sheridan College, I put together a CD that was extremly useful in installing/supporting network adaptors.
It contained: 3COM 3c905b-tx drivers (our PCI nic), ne2000 drivers, some generic isa drivers, windows 95 and 98 versions of poledit, regedit, the windows 98 ptp and w2k ptp fixes (we were using plain-text auth at the time. not necessary but it gave 'em access to their network drives), and the cab files from windows 95, osr2.5, 98, and 98se (great for when windows asks you to insert the 9x cd during the install, I don't have to switch anything).
It also had a few diagnostic tools and some minor documentation I wrote on how to install a nic (such as weird bios configs, SBLive issues, etc). While this cd was never distributed, it was an excellent tool in getting people online.
That is what ISP's should give - a tool that helps the user get online. I hate custom browser and propritary dialers because they can be a pain in the arse to get working properly if your system is even slightly out of "spec".
Keep It Simple.
Price, Quality, Time. Pick none. What, you thought you had a choice?
however, it might be reasonable to define a standard suite of basic diagnostic tools and expect customers to have those tools on hand. one such tool could gather basic information from the customer's computer and put it on a screen so that the customer could read it over the phone to an ISP. (or print it out and fax it) e.g.
- link auth type (ppp over modem, PPPoE, etc)
- ppp phone number (if applicable)
- link-level login name
- results of last authentication attempt
- ip address of local end of ppp link
- ip address of remote end of ppp link (if applicable)
- default router address
- results of ping to default router
- dns server addresses
- dns default domains
- web proxy addresses
- email submission server addresses
- pop/imap username
- pop/imap server addresses
- email return address
- etc.
the same tool could attempt to do some basic DNS queries, and make rudimentary connections to POP, IMAP, SMTP, etc. servers and web proxies (if applicable) - so that when the results are reported to the ISP the ISP can easily determine which things work and which don't, and to isolate the problem to some degree.then the customer wouldn't be required to run a specific vendor's software, and the ISP would be able to get basic information quickly without having to lead the customer through a dialogue with the application. of course, this assumes that such basic diagnostics could be deployed.
Problem with anything like that, where the ISP provides everything and you essentially get a huge package, is just plain stupid on the part of the ISP. They are limiting their user-base to newbies, as anyone who knows anything about their system should know how to install a browser and/or an email client. NO WAY will anyone convince me that Pine isn't a good email client, nor that Lynx isn't a good browser. And NO WAY will I ever commit to anything else, because I frequently experiment on my system. So if X goes down, and my ISP forces me to use Netscape/Balsa (yeah, right, but it could happen) then I'm stuck. I can't even visit a website to download a fix. Nooo, I'd have to call their tech support, and all techsupport except user groups, bulliten boards, and mailing lists sucks. Plain and simple.
Feel free to moderate (censor) this, but as things move more and more towards "integrated" packages (remember Internet Explorer vs. Netscape? We still need 3rd party software to uninstall Explorer from Windows) we are becoming facist pigs, just like Microsoft. And I'm not just talking about these particular ISPs. KDE software has the same problem -- "integrating" way too fucking much.
and do it right. Personally, I don't think ISPs should be in the business of hand holding beyond having a live connection. I'd rather see them spend their time and resources on the connection.
That's the problem. It seems proven by now that ISP's don't have the resources to support whatever crab they are supplying in their 'package'. They can't even support their own infrastructure.
I need an IP address, Email addresses and some decent bandwidth name servers etc.
I use COX which recently swithed from @HOME. Their new homebrewed socalled "High Speed Internet Service" also come with a 1H install package (written in VB?) with all kinds of weird output messages.. Clearly not tested - And, of cause, IE is required.
This new service has been gradually introduced so it has been posible for the technical user to compare the old and new service by fiddelling with DNS etc, and the new service is an absolute disaster.
Their new web site is a disaster. Only way to support is through the web site which is most of the time broken. I managed 3 times to send service request and I got a respond 2 weeks later that they were sorry they couldn't respond immediately, but due to the time that's past they considered me to have solved the problem myself. They got that thing right.
SN
Please remove your TCP/IP software and re-install. If that does not work, please format your driver and re-install.
Fight Spammers!
Information concerning DNS, Gateway, etc...
some for of direct connection to technical support without actually getting internet on (possible?)
Don't:
Browser software --- ack
Crappy "win-installer" based stuff -- its more of a hassle to any advanced user than anything
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Most CDs provided to customers by ISPs are useless. Those that are not useless... will be in three months when the CD is out of date.
I believe that anything beyond a simple CD with the most current Windows dialer/browser is pointless. And I say Windows browser NOT because it has IE, but because it also updates the dialer stack and the UI for setting up dialup.
I work at a small local ISP. A remote diagnostic tool is pointless 90% of the time because they cannot connect and that is why they are calling in the first place.
In addition, I dislike CDs because we get users with their four year old CD installing some horribly old version of IE and NS, and then I just have to walk them through upgrading again. They have horribly old dialup settings... ugh. I just hate CDs provided to customers in general. They cause me so much hassle. I'd rather they called me and had me fix it RIGHT over the phone than try and fix it themselves with some outdated CD.
"I will trust Google to 'do no evil' until the founders no longer run it." Hello Alphabet.
Well, by rights, the ideal ISP CD would contain:
1) Automatic configeration for Windows (9x, ME, NT, 2000, and XP) and Mac.
2) Instructions for manual configeration of Mac, Windows and Linux.
3) the 2 most common/popular browsers, email clients and newsreader clients for Mac, Windows and Linux
That's also what should be officially supported by the ISP.
However some other things that one should consider adding:
Instant Messagers - ICQ, AIM, etc.
FTP Program
File Compression software
Antivirus software
other things that could be thrown in
IRC software
MP3 playback software
Firewall
There's so much that could be given out, but, the support should be focused on the browser, email and newsgroups... then a person can search out more specialised help for their software/hardware problems
None, plain and simple. Unless there is special software needed to achieve connectivity, like a login client or something, no software should be included with an internet connection. We all have some kind of web browser, or a CD to install one, and once we hanve a browser it is a trivial task to find a newsreader or email client. Who would want to install some ISPs crappy software when you can just download the latest, non-branded copy?
The last time I used an ISP's software was back in 1995, when I needed Trumpet Winsock to give Windows 3.1 a TCP/IP stack. (Then I encountered Linux that same year.) Name an OS that doesn't include a TCP/IP stack, dialer, browser, mail client, ftp client, etc, nowadays? ISPs can keep their ADware to themselves. I've helped more friends-of-friends remove garbage installed from the ISP's "connection kits" than I can count, and none of it was necessary. Today all the customers need is the phone number to call, let DHCP do the rest. ISPs will save money and annoy people less when they stop sending them software that installs 4 or 5 apps that run at startup. The last dial-up account I had was entertaining: I called the ISP and they went through their terms, asked me which OS, to which I replied Red Hat Linux. They said, "I'm sorry, but we don't support Linux, we only support Windows and we're working on Mac support." I asked them why, and they replied that their "welcome" software only runs on Windows and their techs are only trained on Windows. I told them to keep their CD and support, bill my credit card, and just give me my username, password, and dial-up numbers. She checked with someone and went ahead and did as I asked. The only time I talked to them again was when I cancelled my dial-up two years later when I got DSL. The point is: ISPs don't need to get invloved in distributing software, it'll probably save them some support calls too.
"As flies to the wanton boys are we to the gods; they kill us for sport." - William Shakespeare, King Lear
There's little doubt that software piracy exists and that it costs companies millions of dollars each year. A few years ago, the SPA initiated a campaign to make ISPs adhere to a "Code of Conduct" that would force them to monitor and regulate content.
The SPA suggested that ISPs ensure information used to crack copy-protection schemes and serial numbers not be posted through its servers, and that they prevent virtual Web servers hosted at the ISP from providing links to other sites containing pirated applications or cracking information.
This attitude is what fuels this activity, to some degree. But holding the ISP accountable is completely out of the question. Ultimately, the end user is the only one accountable for his or her actions.
They should supply connectivity and basic internet services. Why on Earth should I have to use their software to get support? Either my connection and their offered settings work or they don't.
Why is this even a question?
I hate the way the public thinks the ISP is supposed to support the client. I mean, what the client does with the internet is their own fault. Why should an ISP have to waste money on support people, who are onyl the more cynical, BOFH types on planet Earth. As far as the ISP's should be conserned is with the peer-to-peer connection of the ISP to the user premisise. The last thing an ISP should mess with is the affairs what happens inside the clients premisis.
A notable exception is AOL, who think that the ISP and the client should co-mingle... This is more akin to cable brodcasting service that provides access to the cable tv network, and the programming.
It isn't a lie if you belive it.
The ISP's software package CD-ROM usually goes directly into the trash soon after I receive it. If I'm not mistaken, most of the Slashdot crowd probably does the same thing. Why would I want to use the ISP's decorative version of IE? I use Linux anyway, so I guess it's a moot point. Lame story, Slashdot.
ISPs should support networking, not someone else's applications.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
The less platforms you support, the lower your costs will be. When we opened up 4 years ago, we quickly found out that time for customer support was way beyond what we imagined.
So, in order to keep our rates low ($12.95/mo, less annually), we send a disc that automatically configures Win9x/Win2k/WinXP dial-up networking. It also reccomends installation of IE6 (included on disc). We only offer *software* tech support to customers running on that platform.
Of course, we still give out all information and do the best we can to get other systems up and running. Generally, if you include something on a CD, the customer expects support--that's why you should keep it minimal.
As far as VNC software goes, it's not worth the effort or security risk).
You're asking a bunch of people who can fix their computers while stoned, drunk, dieing, with only one working finger while hanging on the side of a burning bus flying down the highway at 100 mph in a snow storm while being shot at. Many of the responses will not help you when Grandma calls wondering why she can't see the pictures of her grandkids she just get in her e-mail.
Unless, of course, you only want geeks as customers.
ISPs should be providing infrastructure. Leave the software to the users. Save money on providing and supporting software and spend it on paying those support people enough to actually know what they are doing when customers call because something isn't working.
If you really need to distribute software, then share those if/else click through support files that the tech support people are [poorly] using. Of course, I may just be bitter having used AOL's and Comcast's "support" services.
I have MindSpring(our dial-up sold us to them), and we got the CD of software, and it took me an hour to get online. When I got a new computer, I installed the software, and it gave me random BSoDs. In other words, its crap. It provides nothing. The "special" IE also crashed. I downloaded a micro-Mozilla client(K-Meleon), and it wipes the floor with everything else. It has literally NO features beyond ultra-fast surfing. n00bs would be frightened by it. There are no bookmarks, no big buttons, and no plugins. Give your customers the option of installing the regular Mozilla client or IE(forget Netscape! It sucks now!), or the mighty K-Meleon. For mail, use Eudora. Give them options, and don't use custom software. Just provide an installer for it. Our old provider gave us an installer that created a standard dial-up and everything. Options and speed are what count, not pretty graphics.
Slashdot is a waste of time. I enjoy wasting time.
When I worked for a small Midwest ISP, we used to tail the various logs looking for incorrect usernames. When we called the customer to help them, they were very happy about us being proactive.
from the mozilla-galeon-gaim-and-xchat dept.
Doesn't that defeat the purpose of the question being asked on Slashdot in the first place?
We're going to make information free Mr. Anderson, whether you like it, or not.
Its not up to the ISP, What will microsoft allow them to support -:( We are one with the collective.
What's wrong with having a simple setup program in VB that will configure a dialer for them, setup mailboxes in Outlook, OE, Netscape, and Eudora, and set a bookmark in their browsers for your company's home page? If you've got a half intelligent user you can walk them thru the settings for DNS or WINS changes. There's really no need to bundle VNC unless you're a really big ISP that has alot of users out of your physical area or you service only mentally challenged people.
Gomer Pyle country. Of course the users are stupid, and the dummies doing the support are probably just as stupid.
Please go out of business and leave running the Internet to those of us in the north.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I think I'll get a dialup account and then let you support all of our applications. let's see... there's Oracle, Apache, Veritas, EMC, Solaris.
After all, everything you need to know is on Google, right?
I work tech support for a large University who will remain nameless so they don't get angry at me. We get calls all the time from people trying to use email, and more importantly virus problems. Let me just make it clear. Outlook has some serious security vulnerabilities. With the Klez virus running around right now, we're all going a little nuts... and like every other headline-making-virus in the past 4 years, it's exploiting vulnerabilities in MS Outlook and Outlook Express. The one piece of advice I can give is DO NOT EVER reccomend that someone use Outlook! We have some kind of site license to give out an ad-free version of Eudora, but I also find that Netscape's Messenger works just fine. There are a billion other free email programs out there that I don't have experience with. Outlook is the ONLY one with these vulnerabilities! Some people may be smart enough to not click on an unknown attachment, but with some viruses and Outlook, you don't even have to click on it. From a support perspective, taking away the security issues, I've found that it's just easier to walk people through the settings on Netscape and Eudora (keep in mind this is over the phone) than it is on Outlook.
NAV and McAfee both suck, especially the latter--Norton may also be a processor hogging pile of bloated crap but at least it detects viruses.
People, you should check out NOD32. It has won an improbable number of Virus Bulletin 100% awards, it's affordable, and it runs just fine without slowing down a reasonably modern system.
G
This place not only has a manditory software package, you can't even sign up for their service without picking up one of their CDs and going through the signup program that dials their server and does the setup for everything automagically. I would much rather do without the internet entirely than sign up with them and worry about what their software was doing every time the computer was turned on.
the GURU ISP, make the user take a test if they want to open an account. If they cannot answer some reasonable networking questions, tell them thanks and refer them to another ISP.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
My fear is, if/when this is mandatory, the MPAA/RIAA will see there opening.
To quote Sony senior VP Steve Heckler: Here's where I got the quote
I want that on a T-shirt, because in the end, they will win. b(
Before I part with'em: two pennies weigh ~4.996+/-0.014g, have a zinc core, and the face of Lincoln. You can keep 'em.
Please???
Quake 3. If I could find an Isp giving out free games with reliable broadband and support them. I would sell my soul to that guy from the 700 club. (Well on second thought... maybe the usual buyer of souls would be a better choice. Have to think about this some more.)
>
So the ISP CD should be have content, not applications.
Help your customers. Fill it with porn.
Although it *sounds* great, an ISP installing VNC is not going to be very productive.
The purpose of an ISP (most at least) is to provide you with a functioning internet connection.
If your connection isn't working, VNC is going to do you no good. If your customer can't connect to you, you can't connect to them.
If the connection is good enough to use VNC, the tech support call should be pretty close to over, yes?
Obciously, there are situations where it would be useful (help configuring email clients, etc.), but let us remember that the goal (and most of the support calls) is about connectivity.
Don't distribute any software. All you need is printed instructions giving the phone numbers to dial and the ip addresses and names of the gateway, dns and other pertinant servers. That's all the ISP should do. I used to do customer support at Flashnet back in its early days and supporting the software package we distributed was a huge PITA. We even had idiots who called in for support after signing up for an account and getting the install disks who said, "What???? you mean I have to buy a modem and hook my computer up to the phone line to get Internet????". I'm serious.
Forget about the software. You need to install good people at your ISP. Hire people that are willing to accept that there are customers out there that do not need support and are simply calling to tell you that there is a problem on your end. Maybe offer those people jobs that call and tell you there is a problem on your end.
Give them a CD with both netscape and mozilla for many different (Linux, a *BSD or two, Winbloes, Mac, Solaris). Maybe also Amaya (the w3c reference browser) and "free" versions of Opera.
Also include zipslack and a freebsd installer also, so when people complain about M$'s latest product, you can tell them they already havean alternative
I do think that the VNC thing is a good idea, but I think it'd be better that it be a user-initiated program, I don't like the idea of having a constantly running daemon in winDoh!s/Mac/Linux/whatever that gives anyone access to the box. As far as the connectivity software there are a few issues here:
.02c Sorry it's so long
DSL users Here in Tx, SWB DSL users are required to run a program called "Enternet 300" which is a PPPoE driver pack for Windows. I personally can't stand it because it's all javascript. (ever wonder why the Enternetfolder program makes so much clicking? I know how to stop it.)Luckily this PPPoE pack has been integrated into almost every kind of broadband router out there so for most of us there is no need for Enternet300.Linux users are saved by using Roaring Penguin's PPPoE driver for Linux
Power Users> These usere already know how to do this stuff and don't use the CDs in the first place.. the CD's are fishtank fodder.
Newbies these people have a minimal grasp of the internet and of network connectivity and need their hands held while they connect for the first time. AOL is so popular because of the "One Icon Does All"(OIDA) and they are too ignorant to know better. (not intended as flame fodder either)
I don't know how many newbies I've had to almost slap their hand with a ruler to stop them from using AOL when thay have a T-3 at their disposal.
then you get the wonders of the computing community..
The Absoloute idiots, aka "the Cave people" These people NEED to he walked through every little setup and checkbox. These people feel lost when even the word "PPP" is mentioned. They don't know a modem from the microwave and constantly plague CCs with tech support questions.
I think that for the Idiots that the pre-packaged software is a good thing. It comes pre-configured (usually) and is already ready to set-up. They are looking for the OIDA soloution and call in when they can't get it.
I don't think it is important which software is packaged as long as the packaged software matches the person receiving it.
Just my
Partnership for an idiot free America!
I worked at Flashnet doing customer support back in the beginning days and been there, done that with a software package distributed to new customers. Supporting it was a huge pain. We even had one moron call in after getting his account signed up and the software in hand who said, "What??? You mean I have to buy a modem and connect my computer up to a phone line to get on the Internet???" He thought the Internet just magically came into his computer via the software install.
True story: I'm vacationing at a broadband-enabled friend's place and showing them the wonders of USENET.
His ISP's newsserver won't let me in no matter what user/pass I give it. First, I blame my configuration of the newsreader, and try telnetting to port 119 and doing it manually. No dice.
I phone up tech support in the middle of the night. Dude says "Oh, yeah, our NNTP server authenticates our broadband customers via IP address and doesn't require authentication."
I yell "Doh!", we both laugh, and call closed. Woohoo!
This question isn't being posed to internet seasoned people. It's ludicrous to think that they were asking what to send to a group of people who work on the net for a living. What they were really asking was 'what can we do to help get non-initiated ppl to the net?'
I end up playing technical support for my family. I don't like it. I don't like explaining what TCP/IP is. I don't like having to set up Internet Explorer to look on the LAN for the net connection instead of trying to dial up. And I really don't like the terminology that Windows uses to get you running. It's silly really.
You know what the ISP should provide? It should provide the information to the computer on how it should be set up. If the CD basically told the computer 'Go to DHCP, set your programs to look on the lan for the internet connection, and then go!' that'd be all most people really cared about.
When @Home went down, AT&T BI set up their DNS so that no matter what address you went to, you ended up at a web page that says "Download and run this file." When you did that, it set up my computer for what the new network was. That was so cool. I didn't have to plug any new data in. That's what the CD should do.
"Derp de derp."
I just want my ISP to provide a (reliable, fast) connection to the internet. End of story.
Fortunately that's what my ISP provides. (Oh, yeah, they offer an email account, but I prefer to run my own domain.)
Any software or service an ISP offers beyond that is costing somebody money. Guess who.
-- Alastair
I give her an 8.
Beowulf Cluster.
It's the only program anyone needs. Because it can emulate all other software!!
Thanks to Al.
or rather, a branded Jabber client, made to access by default that ISPs jabber server (to match the email address of that account).
:)
If that had been happening from the get-go, there'd be a lot less of a problem with incompatible messaging systems.
The local state college has been considering putting up a jabber server to match the student's email accounts, which is where I got the idea from. Then if Yahoo! would just play along with the way their messenger works... well the world would be a better place or something
what the hell is a 'junk character', anyway?
In my opinion ISPs should only cache email and perhaps home web pages and should not be in the software business at all. They should support open standards and not insist on their own or any other package at the client end as long as it interacts with those standards.
It's like when i installed my new cdrom drive... there was only a _cdrom_ with drivers shipped with it!
You are a dumb fuck for replying to your own post not once but TWICE!
I work for the web hosting dept of a large ISP. We don't support software, that is up to the company that created the software. We do provide settings for popular software packages and will provide the generic settings for the services we provide (e-mail, ftp, what not). If the customer is having problems with the functionality of the program they are directed to the software manufacturer.
We don't support operating systems either, the benefit to this is that we will give you the settings and you can find out where to put them. We do happen to have the locations where that info needs to be entered but again, we don't support the OS, we support the settings and our product.
As for the 'Shutup, reboot, shutup, good bye' mentality, I can't remember the last time I told someone to reboot their computer.
Of course it's company policy never to, imply ownership in the event of a dildo... always use the indefinite article a d
None, nada, zilch!
Just give me an IP address, bandwidth, and get out of the way.
redundant, but true. the second you distribute software, you become responsible for the entire end users's computer. if that program goes wild and deletes something that it wasn't supposed to (like upgrading netscape from 4.7 to 6 and it deletes your e-mail), you are responsible for that loss.
i've worked for isps that do both, provide software(had to back in the win3.1 days) and not provide software. you would really be suprised how many newbies can't even get the software installed correctly. you'll spend more time doing software installation tech support than is necessary. make sure if you are in the position to decide what software you support, that you make a short list and stick to that list. i can't tell you how often even 2 years ago we were getting support calls about a newbie that got our cd, and tried installing Trumpet Winsock on Windows 98.
Why read the article when I can just make up a snap judgement?
You know, I'm not sure this deserved to be modded down. I remember trying AT&T WorldNet dialup a couple of years ago, only to find that their installation program abstracted away literally everything, including the username and password. Once installed, it was just double-click and wait until connected. When I called tech support to find out what my login credentials were (and how to change my password), they refused to tell me, and acted like I was being unreasonable to even ask. I can understand that a lot of people don't want to bother with login credentials (and these people create tons of support overhead with "it's not letting me connect" calls), but that's no excuse to force everybody to leave their email open to anybody who can access their machine.
Man I so agree with this. The last damn thing I want on a support page is "here's how to set up the mail or news client you DON'T use". The information that I want most of all on the page is just the raw data just like you suggest. I want the address of the mail server, the handshake protocol the dial-up uses, whether or not I need to use SPA when checking my e-mail.
Case in point, Earthlink isn't being very friendly with Evolution, it refuses to authenticate when I try to send e-mail. Outlook works fine however. Earthlink has pelnty of information on configuring Outlook but nothing at all on Evolution. I don't expect support of Linux but what would be really helpful is just the raw information I need to configure any mail client to use their SMTP servers. I mod you up with the moderation points of my mind.
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
"My question to Slashdot readers is, what software and services should ISPs distribute and support?"
The only service I want from an ISP is fast, reliable transport for my packets. Any software you send me will go in the trash unopened.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
I also like the way DirecTV DSL does things. They give you a CD with a few optional apps, plus a DSL status monitor for Windows. You can follow the CD installation program if you want, and it's really slick, but you don't have to. Their setup manual has all the network settings you'll need if you want to do it manually.
And the reason they give you those settings is to support Linux installations. Thank God there's a major DSL provider that is aware that Linux exists.
And best of all, no PPPoE! And they let you run mail and Web servers off your connection if you want. I know that many people do it anyway with other providers, but it sure is nice to have it explicitly stated that you can.
But to get back on topic, a good ISP should provide a basic package of apps and possibly also a tool to automatically configure a system for someone who is afraid to do so. However, they should also provide that config info to those who are comfortable doing it themselves. As for what to support, I think that knowing something about several different browsers and e-mail apps is important. Where I worked, we would support them up to a point. After we'd done all we could, we'd have to send the user to Microsoft, which I think is entirely proper after we've tried our best to solve the problem. After all, MS writes these apps, so they shouldn't expect other companies to support them. They wrote the code; they can fix it when it breaks.
That light you see at the end of the tunnel might be from an oncoming train.
A SATAN,back Orifice,email combo?
My old job was doing support for a Virtual ISP, and I created walk-thrus for setting up each version of Outlook, Outlook Express, Netscape, Eudora, and Dialup networking for all OSes (M$)....the intent was to include it all on a CD and have it available on the web as well, I had figured the cost savings was enormous as the majority of calls were simply for setup....so give them what they need ahead of time......and save incoming calls/resources for REAL issues...
As for supplying software, only supply what you can efficiently support....browser/email client.....the cost of burnng software and additional info (how-tos) is minimal to the support in manhours you'll be providing long term to those who wont try anything without a guide to do so........
Al
apdumas@NOSPAM.ttlc.net
ISP's should not distribute software. Windows machines, Macs, and linux distros come with OK tools for making connections. Better than anything you would expect an ISP to come up with. ISP's should simply resolve password issues, ping people who can't tell if they are connected or not, and inform customers of required configurations (mail protocals, server id's). My wife and I just wend throught the @home -> cox conversion. I ran the Cox conversion software. She did nothing, and continued to run 0% Cox (or @home) supplied software. Who do you think had a trouble free transition?
As I work ISP tech support, I have to say that I agree with most ISPs only providing one general software package and supporting just what's included in it (whether it includes IE, Netscape, and/or any custom software).
The simple fact is that, as others have illustrated, the majority of ISP users are "casual" users - they literally panic at the thought of having to setup anything manually (even something so relatively simple as adding a mail account in Outlook Express). Most of these users won't even contemplate going out to download something that wasn't included in the default installation... I can't tell you how many times I've had a technical support chat where the browser showed up as "IE 5.0" even though it's now a few years old!
The people who really are technically skilled just don't need the support to begin with. They know how to get Netscape, Opera, Eudora, and so on - and probably won't even need to check a website for instructions to set it up. As such, it's really just better to support what comes with the ISP (or the OS); give the support to the people who really need it!
I would just note, of course, that this doesn't mean that I'm endorsing Microsoft's old "IE or the highway" strategy with Windows - I just think that it would be quite a burden to expect an ISP to support every modern browser/e-mail app that happens to be available for download. If an ISP includes more than one company's program (or one besides IE), all the more power to them.
my friend had some problem with his dell computer
they told him to use his restore cds, and he lost all his data!
how's that for customer service?
Spoon not. Fork, or fork not. There is no spoon.
There's a killer robot clone on the loose and he looks like Queen Elizabeth. BEWARE!!!
Strong Passwords
If people had a program to generate strong passwords, then there would befewer system and accounts for black hats to use to leapfrog across the net tohide their tracks. I'm working on a java applet that uses a strong PRNG seeded with user mouse movements and input from SecueRandom to generate 5 prnouncable passwords and 5 phrases made of real words. Something like this bundled with AOL's account setup program would do great things for teir security, and by extension, make the net a better place for everyone.
Public Key Infrastructure
ISPs should get Verisign or Thawte, or another big name certificate and use that to sign certificates for their customers. Give them a certificate with thier email address. In a couple of years the open mail relay spam problem will fix itself as everone will automatically throw away unsigned email and ISPs will revoke certs of spammers, or there will be public databases of spammer certs.
PKI doesn't cost companies very much, only a little for the certificate and a little bit of education. Many email client already have crypto plugins.
Sure, you'll still have problems, mostly from ISPs doing poor identity checking and users using bad passwords.
Copyright Violation:"theft, piracy"::Anti-Trust Violation:"thermonuclear price terrorism"<-Overly dramatic language.
i may be put under rendundant for this, but it needs to be said. for the mercy of your tech support staff, do not include anything other than the software to setup a DUN or remote access connection. anyone running linux should be smart enough to know what settings they need and no where to put them. as a tech support rep working on the front lines, i get hit up with questions on the few things that we do provide with our software, and i have to say to my customers, im sorry we just cant support that (even though it came on the CD you got to connect with us.) and its not that i dont want to support them, or dont know how, im not allowed to, so that the company cant be liable for anything that might mess up while im trying to fix the customer. to reinterate, include nothing! (not even co-branding, customers think its taking over their computers when you do that.)
Avoid The Rush, Start Thinking NOW!
--
Any Spelling Or Gramatical Errors In This Post Are There On Purpose.
They should supply an uninstaller. @home didn't.
Ouch. It's deja vu. I have told the very same story to ISPs too many times to think about while running OS/2 and Linux, as well as Windoze. In fact I must have been dealing with the same monkey as well.
------ The only greater hazard to your liberty than n politicians is n+1 politicians.
During my tenure as a helpdesk staffer at a local ISP, i found myself wishing many many times that each and every one of our customers got a CD with IE 5 and Netscape 4.xx on it. main reason being-- Old PCs. 1/4 of the computer market around here is people who got their pentium I or II running win95 second or third hand with IE 3.0 or none at all, or MS Inbox for email. Call me a dumb little techie, but all i had to do is say "i'm sorry that software's a bit old and we dont support it anymore" and they quickly..even gladly! bring it in to let me update it with NS or IE (i let them pick) but it would have saved alot of time and dollars to hand out a CDR with both of these to all new account signups..
In my opinion, if you're fooling around with Mozilla or Opera then you're bright enough to figure your email or tweak DUN settings out on your freakin on.
If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
You called Qwest didn't you...sounds like someone from one of our Call Centers...
If you ever have to call qwest, immediately ask to talk to Tier 1.5 and don't let them talk you out of it or tell you they don't exist...
Linux Experience-
Tier 1(the main people)-2% (at most)
Tier 1.5-probably 50%
Competience
Tier 1-40%
Tier 1.5-95% (Ben is the best over there)
........
To answer the question, though, Qwest only Supports IE 5.x, Netscape 4.x, Win>=95, Mac OS >=8 != X.
---------------------
I have heard horror stories and taken calls where the customer has had techs worst than the customer...
Caller-"I don't seem to have hyperterminal"
Tech-"I am sorry sir, you will have to reinstall Windows"
!
This was in the case notes for a caller...
"
OS:Windows Lynux....
ISSUE:told caller that I would not support him
TROUBLESHOOTING:told caller that I would not support him
RESOLUTION:told caller that I would not support him
"
!
...and more case notes...
"
...
EMAIL:Eudora
ISSUE:caller wants pop servers
TROUBLESHOOTING:told him that we would not give them to him because we don't support Eudora
....
"
!
I loved it when I was listening to calls during training and I heard a tech say..."What is Linux". The problem is, is that many of the techs at our place are either >50 yrs old or ex-cons on work release. Many only come to get the training. The first week of training is horrible, the first lesson was on how to double click.
You aren't the only linux user to do that. I had a guy that claims he was using windows 95...
Me-"Ok, what do you see in that control panel"
Caller-"Umm...I don't know"
Me-"Just read it off"
Caller-"Ok, I am using Linux, I know you don't support it, so I guess I will had to get windows on here"
Me-"JNo, Its OK, you should have told me..."
If anyone wants, I will throw up a webpage with complete case notes of junk like this...just email me.
FYI...I will support any OS, I have even had FreeBSD.
forget it.
Provide them a QNX boot floppy with GUI and browser and support that ;-)
delete free(system.gc);
I used to work tech support
OK, this does explain something...
if they won't escalate your call after relaizing that you're more competent than them, you need to switch ISP's. My god, man...it's a dial-up account. Not broadband.
And what if it is broadband, and they still won't escalate the call?
I've had 5 ISPs since my very first with Netcom Way-Back-When(tm). The number of software packages I've installed that was sent to me by all those ISPs. None. The question which was asked in my latest round of ISP hunting: "Do you allow services to be run? IE, I run my own mail, my own web server, I ssh into my box. I need those services and do not want anything from you other than a connection." This is a product that all the national ISPs and their ilk miss completely. The pipe, nothing more.
The ISP I'm with now answered the above question in a manner that I find acceptable. "Sure. You can do whatever you want with your connection within limits. You spam, we shut you down. You get infected with viruses that spew back out to the net, we shut you down. You do something illegal, we shut you down. Other than that, we don't care."
Their information packet that arrived two days later was well written. Right at the top was my username, password, IP (static), DNS, other network settings, mail/news server names and a number for help. After all of that was given up front in an easy to grok format they started in with the "If you're using Windows95...." instructions. Oh, and for the record, they outsource their news service to Supernews. No regional ISP should be getting into news these days.
That is how ISPs should be. Offer the bare minimum, the pipe, and add on other things later. Far more cost effective for everyone all around and far easier to maintain.
-- Grey d'Miyu, not just another pretty color.
I mean really.... What kind of FLAMEBAIT is this?
ISP's provide service based on the LOWEST common denominator that they can manage. They also provide support on the LOWEST possible wage structure that they can manage.
If everyone of their clients used LINUX, then they would either be working with some bloody genius' as clients or some idiots who couldn't make toast and still can't connect to the Internet.
I think a better question would be this:
Wouldn't it be nice if there was some differing level of user an ISP could identify who would be given different considerations. Examples of this could be: I don't want your support unless I can't ping the gateway.
In turn, you provide me with the permission to run an email server and static IP address. Choke my bandwidth if you must. But take a policy of you don't F with me and I don't F with you.
The only time I would call is when I have already performed the tests described in the first four pages of your scripts. So cut me a break and send me over to the intelligent few in your ocmpany!!Here's the next Ask Slashdot:
BobTheCEO writes: We have a business question at our company that no one can answer. We're thinking of hiring some consultants to answer the question for us, but they're very expensive (as some of you consultants out there know). Recently I've seen businesses getting their questions answered for free on geek-oriented websites. Should I post a question to one of these sites? The users seem to be pretty savvy when it comes to our industry. Has anybody had success doing this in the past?
The best example of bad bundled software was @Home's-- it was crap, plain and simple. Wow, you mean you're giving me OLD versions of IE and OE that kill my existing bookmarks, reset my homepage, and wreak other havoc? All just so the browser and mail program have your stupid animated logo instead of the default one? Oh, I can't wait to install it!
:-)
Way back when I got my cable modem (now replaced by DSL), Comcast sent out hardware guys and software guys separately. Mind you, this was long before the days of the self-install kit. The hardware guys did their job, but when the software guy showed up I didn't let him in the door. "Just gimme the config sheet with the server addresses, and be on your way," I said. And he did, and I amazingly survived for years with only the default IE throbber to watch while pages loaded.
The only useful app in that whole shitty bundle was the one that tested the @Home servers so I could find out exactly what was wrong before calling up to yell at the support monkeys.
Even worse, the Comcast.net software was even bigger shit-- almost every one of my clients who used @Home had their systems pretty well screwed by running that damned installer. Though on the plus side, I made quite a bit of money un-fucking things for them.
~Philly
The Internet is a wide open network.
If they just give you custom crap that is for their services, and they do not support open access to the Internet global network, they cannot be labeled ISPs.
Or I guess it needs to be AISP, An Internet Service (as in one service) Provider!
JMO
I can guaran-fucking-tee that you will live to regret attempting to support software that you have no business supporting. Just wait until you toast some customer's critcal system because the website you're consulting doesn't publicize a major "gotcha" that is covered in the manual or elsewhere. You're not doing anyone any favors by support shit you don't understand.
Babies need their hand held. Okay, so an ISP should do a tiny bit of hand holding but if you want software you should get it yourself. People who receive something for "free" have a tendency to believe that the entity the received it from is responsibile for making it work. Okay that said: I expect a configuration guide and settings list. I also appreciate it if they give shortcuts to trouble-shooting pages for major clients and download links for popular programs. If my ISP does all that for me I'm thrilled. (basically I agree with rikki_t)
B) Eliminate all the stupid users. This is frowned upon by society.
I think that all setup utilities required by the ISP should be able to run on any OS with a graphical web browser and be able to work from behind a firewall.
...Walk to other room sit at Linux workstation and open Konqueror to /. "Oh, I see it works, do you have any spare motherboards for an Athlon?"
My ISP (Calble Modem) requires that you run their "modem registration" utility within 6 days of your installation or your service is cut off.
When the "installation technician" came to my house he said nothing about having to register the modem. All he said was "How is that computer going to work without a keyboard, monitor or mouse"
Six days later, my connection is cut off so I called techsupport.
Me: Hi, my modem stopped working...
Support: Are the lights on?
Me: Yes, all except activity.
Support: Is this a new account?
Me: Yes.
Support: Did you register your modem?
Me: No one told me about that, what do I have to do?
Support: Put the CD that came with the modem in your drive and the utility will start automatically.
Me: (Taking beer off of new coaster and putting it in my CD-ROM drive) Umm.... Nothing is happening....
Support: What version of Windows are you using?
Me: What's Windows?
Support: (Explains what windows is) Your computer should have come with it.
Me: Nope, my computer didn't come with windows.
Support: Do you have a Mac?
Me: No, I have an x86 PC.
Support: Then it should have come with Windows.
Me: I couldn't afford the $200, plus the $100's of other dollars for the software I want to use ocassionally.
Support: Then how did you get on the internet before?
Me: Linux.
Support: We don't support that.
Me: Well, you do now, please register my modem for me by hand, my MAC address is....
How hard can it be to make platform independent tools (ie Java programs) to perform the registration tasks? As for other software to include with their "package" I think they should give you a list of software to choose from, you pick what you want, and they burn you a CD or two (or more). On my list would be only the latest Debian CD's and a GRUB floppy.
When 90.1% of all your users run IE, 66.1% run Win95/98/ME and 29.3% run WinNT/2K/XP, it seems only obvious which platform an ISP should support. I hate to say this but IE has been by far a superior product out there for the end user browsing the web. All an ISP should have to support is the Internet Connection Wizard, Internet Explorer, and Outlook Express. They should also know Netscape 4.7 & 6 pretty well and know how to navigate a macintosh. However, 90% of the time it is a reboot issue. "Ma'am, have you tried rebooting?" She replys "No I havn't." Badabing badaboom, it amazingly works she tells us when she calls back. The worst thing you can do, which ticks off customers more than anything is to tell them that they have to install something that will allow you to control their computer. They don't like it. As far as linux goes, if they're trying to use that, they're in the same boat as me at that point, refer to the HOWTOs.
They just have to suport pppd and/or dhcpcd
that all... who need more?
I work at a company that sell inet access. We give IE and Netscape to our users. We support ANY software though.. If no one at the company is familiar with the software, we download, providing it is freeware/shareware, and try to learn it as quick as possible. We then return call our customer and attempt to help them.. MOST of customers use windows and usually the problem is something simple (wrong com port, etc...). The few linux users we do have are usually smart enough to solve their own problems, and usually only call in to see if it is our server.. if not they try to solve it themselves..
I work for ISP and we actually didn't give any software out. It was up to customer to choose what they wants to use and download it. I don't know anyone who doesn't have IE or simular. Most of the software that is being suppled by companies is totally useless and normally just taking up the space plus moding your registery to lock you to proxy and locking up your speed. But we support eveything that user had. Pegasus mail?. Gravity newsreader. no problemo.
i think that a user should be able to set thier own stuff up and use what they want not what other people want .. it is like with the earthlink and AOL browsers .. they FORCE you to use it .. (installed with the dialup software) if you dont use it you cant dial into the service (i use prodigy . and they give you a disk to use to dialup) with software for new users .. it is crashprone and buggy .. well i set my connection up manually .. and i like it better .no crashing .. and when i read this article and the comments ... i think .. what ever happened to the phrase the customer is always right .. ?? i mean you pay for service .. not to be forced to use something you dont want .. well this is all i have to say about this subject it is a very sore one for me :)
Yours Truly, Wes -- Owner
I moved into a new apartment near the end of 2000. Broadband was not (affordably) available in my neighborhood, and so I opted for a dial-in through a company named MStar. Boy was that a mistake.
I was running Linux on my primary machine, but they sent me Windows-only sign-up software on a CD-ROM. So I fired up my old system from when I was a freshman, which still had Windows '95 on it, and signed up. Their software loaded onto my system, took the liberty of placing a custom "quick-launch" bar onto my desktop, and then proceeded to log me in and activate my account.
The browser on the quick-launch bar was IE, but I prefered Netscape. However, when I tried to launch Netscape, the window would blip open for a split second and then close. Confused, I closed the quick-launch program (which disconnected me from the network) and tried again; this time it worked. MStar's trojan sofware was literally blocking me from running Netscape.
Their software, which connecting, would ask for a username and password, which is just a front for a "real" username and password that were secretly passed to the server when initiating the PPP connection. I used some software to capture my real username and password, and then I set up a standard dial-up account. When I would try to access the net on my Linux box, the Windows box would be able to auto-dial the connection. That worked nicely for a while.
Until a month later when banner ads from MStar started appearing at the bottom of every page that I loaded. Their servers were modifying every web page that I retrieved by placing an image and a link to MStar-related sites! There was a "disable banner for 5 minutes" link in the banner, which simply called a Perl script with a parameter of 5.
Oh, and did I mention that MStar performs ISP-side web censorship? They blocked Adobe's web site once. I had to set up a proxy server on another network to get around that little issue.
With the help of a filtering proxy and a call to that script with a parameter of "9999999" in my browser's home page setting, I was finally able to get clean access to the net. A few months later, I moved and had broadband access. But I will never consider going with MStar again.
The next time I search for an ISP, I will only subscribe to a service that interferes the least with my connection to the Internet.
An unjust law is no law at all. - St. Augustine
I work at an ISP, we don't provide packages of any sort. We also don't require that you use a certain product to get support, and we try to support most packages, although it would be nice to concentrate on one said package, it's just not right.
our old dialup isp rocked. they supported windows and mac, yet when i called them up w/ linux problems they gave me no shit about not being supported, and gave me all the ip's i needed. when i had a problem on my end(didnt have the name servers after upgrading to sid) the guy i was talking to had only used RH a bit, and told me to call back the next day and ask for the linux guru. if you want to offer software, you might just want to keep it on the net, anf offer the initial support over the phone. you dont have to support the apps you post on the web, just kinda say "Here are some apps that we find a lot of our customers like to use, you might want to give them a try" of course becoming a debian mirror wouldnt hurt either... bit faster apt-geting ;-)
Almost everything ISPs want you to install sucks, anyway.
Does anyone know how to uninstall BroadJump? safely? It's running something in the background and messing up a friend's machine. BroadJump refuses tech support requests.
This is a tough question. I would like to see ISPs support my OS which is FreeBSD. In fact, my ISP even uses FreeBSD. But are they going to support Mozilla, Galeon or Konqueror? KMail or pine? They can't support them all. It irks me to no end when they choose to only support the top 95% of systems and browsers, but I can't blame them. That means Windows, Mac, IExplorer and Netscape. Sigh.
It's not that their helpdesk guys are stupid. It's that the customers are ignorant. Imagine the following scenario:
"I can't connect."
"What OS are you using?"
"Linux 8.1"
[sigh] "Which Linux distribution is that?"
"Huh? It's Linux. I just bought it at a yardsale."
[assumes Redhat] "Okay, are you using KDE or Gnome?"
"I just done told ya I'm using Linux!"
"Yes sir, I know that."
"You guys said you support Linux, so support it!"
"What's on your screen right now?"
"It says 'please insert CD number two to continue installation."
...
But there is a solution. For some strange reason ISPs are marketing two services packaged as one product. Connectivity and support. I don't see why they can't split up the package if necessary. Let's say the price of the normal service is $50. For a Windows user that includes connectivity and support of Explorer, Netscape and Outlook. But if you're using Linux, BSD, BeOS, etc., they can't effectively support you. So you don't pay for support. Your price just dropped to $40. I can live with that.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
Depending on the kind of customers you're trying to attract, you could develop an ISP that purely delivered connectivity and attract geeks who will be grateful for the open window to the net.
Or you could develop a full kit so that even Your Mom[tm] could set it up and use it.
Or you could try something in between. Or offer more than one type of service. Or whatever you want.
Keep in mind that the remaining market in most cities consists of new people who barely know what a Start Button is on their screen. If you want to get lots of customers you'll have to cater to this crowd and support them a little. AOL might be filled with idiots, but those idiots are paying customers. It's because their kit is almost idiot proof, and it took them seven editions to get there.
Use Evolution instead of Outlook? Bewa
Booting network troubleshooter...
Tux the penguin appears on the screen, wearing a toolbelt...
Tux casts a fishing line and reels in a fish (er, a webpage). The customer sees for himself that the problem isn't with the network.
Tux then offers to install a loopback linux distro.
Wasn't there a /. article a while back, about the potential EULA violation on Windows XP about the use of any 3rd party remote desktop software (such as VNC) on an XP machine, other than the one bundled in XP?
If so, wouldn't every ISP forcing a remote desktop utility into its own package, be wholesale violating the Microsoft EULA .. Which I would think would generate no end of problems, since most damn near every ISP is pretty OS loyal to the Microsoft line.
I sure as hell know BellSouth's FastAccess people will pretty much clam up if you even so much as mention you have a Linux machine somewhere in your house.
fishcreativity is the art of concealing your sources
A working broadband connection is more important than software. If there are no disconnects and no dial in problems, I'm happy.
AOL is the result of providers providing software. A 100+MB package filled with crap. And even worse, you have to use this software.
My provider also has its own software, but you don't need it. All you need is a small pppoe dll file. I now have DSL for more than a year and there wasn't one single problem(!).
So if I have to choose between software and "no problems at all", I'll not choose AOL.
why support software who are suppose to be supported by the software maker?
ISP should only support the dialer part!
I have work for an isp in the past and only the dialer was support. All other softwares bug where redirect on the software maker hotline or is web site is not phone support is available.
supporting already supported software is a lost of time!
Hey stop laffin...im brand new at this.. heres some questions i have..and plz..answer in very simple terms..i dont even kno what html is.. 1..what is linux?..can i use it w/o knowin anything bout code? 2..what is open source?..can i use this w/o knowin anything bout code? 3..what is apache?..can i use this w/o any knowledge of code? 4..so in very simple terms..what should i do to get started in all this? my system is a 336mhz 64 meg 5Gig..win98.2..very small as is my knowledge..but m hungry to learn... lol..ur still laffin at me..sigh..hey i really appreciate ya helpin' me..plz advise..thx..
xs4all provides its users with a free copy of pgp and documentation. They encourage their users to use them and support their privacy.
I'd love my ISP to do that kind of things.
Trollem mirabilem hanc subnotationis exigiutas non caperet
Funny...
:)
Sounds like most of the support calls I get
Once upon a time, a clueless teach bought an iMac from me. When I still sold those. She was able to get free internet access from the school district where she worked. This was in the days of Mac OS 8.6 and when the tcp/ip control panel required the address of the domain name server. I couldn't count the number of times this dumb bitch packed up that iMac and brought it into my shop demanding that I fix her computer. I'd plug in the telephone number, user name, password **** and DNS settings **** for the store's dialup account and bring up pages until she was content. She'd take it home and magically she could't connect anymore. No matter how many times I told her that she needed them, she just would not ask for DNS addresses. As memory serves she just gave up and paid for AOL to get internet access.
More often than not "support" means walking some idiot through the process of setting up Outlook Express. If you don't know what your pop, imap, nntp, and dns servers are used for, YOU SHOULDN'T BE USING A FUCKING COMPUTER TO GET ONTO THE INTERNET!
Thank you for indulging my rant.
The funny thing is on most of the cd's that you get from ISP's includes macintosh software. but when you call the ISP up for support of the software that they gave you.. they dont support it. Plus the stuff they give you on cd is usaully so old and out of date that when you load it into your system it totally screws it up. Objectsupportlib in OS9.2.1 anybody? YUM, shaw.ca which is one of the cable suppliers in British Columbia puts MacPPP (1992, meant for OS 7.1, shaw's minimum system req'd is OS8.6) Netscape 3 / 4 and no opentransport. They also install draglib (1994)and objectsupportlib (1995)
well...duh..help me out here..do i need to know code to use linux, opensource etc ( i'd like to download linux but what good would it do if i dont kno want to do with...is there a point & click version?)...where can i go to learn the basics...(hey i posted here cuz i couldnt even figure out how to start my own topic..*snicker*..
how do i do that..or am i in da rite place?)..so feel some sympathy for me..werent u a newbie once..lol..like i said im hungry to learn..*S*
Simple answer:
dd if=/dev/random of=/dev/hda