Open Source as Programming Exp. for College Students?

texatut asks: "With the computer industry in a slump, many college CS students nearing graduation are looking at pretty meek prospects. While 'formally' educated, few actually have concrete experience dealing with development of software. Many would like to have something concrete to put down on their resume or application to graduate school. However, starting their own project is a hard and time-consuming task. Obviously, the Open Source community is a perfect place for us to get our hands dirty. My question is, are there any resources that can help people with varying levels of experience connect with development teams in a way that would benefit both the project and the students?"

Comments

Check sourceforge

[nate1138]

You could always check sourceforge, they always have listings for tons of projects that need testers, coders, documentation folks, etc. Good way to get your "hands dirty" and help out the community.

Re:Check sourceforge

[hillct]

SourceForge is a good place to start if you wanted to get involved in OSS development, but I would question whether such experience is truly valiable in the job market. While it looks good on a grad school application (maybe) it really doesn't demonstrate an ability to work in a close knit team, to meet deadlines, to solve problems, enguage in project management activities (in the more treditional sense).

It's true that working on an OSS project may give you experience in the actual work of software development in that you will be producing code, vary few of the software development skills msot companies look for are really developed or evaluated in the OSS world, unless you think a hiring manager at any company would actually be influenced by your code-fu rating as listed on SourceForge or Avogado. While in the strictest sense it may allow one to sharpen one's coding skills, I seriourly doubt whether it would significantly effect a hiring decision at any large company. On the other hand, if you want to start building up a consulting business it could never hurt to say you were a lead developer on OSS projects A, B, and C.

--CTH

Re:Check sourceforge

[Macrobat]

You may be right about what SourceForge or OSS development doesn't add to your resume. Realize, though, that nothing that isn't a job itself exactly replicates a job. What work on an OSS project demonstrates is that you are self-motivated (because nobody's forcing you to do this), that you work well with people even if you don't see them day-to-day (because you are working on a distributed project) and that you have the ability to finish a project and create a working piece of code. All in all, an intelligent employer should recognize the benefit.

Re:Check sourceforge

[Telastyn]

It also depends on the work done of course. My company employs a few driver maintainers. Why? Because our products require good knowledge of system internals. While driver writing doesn't guarantee such knowledge, it's usually a good sign. Especially if it works.

Companies always are looking for coders that can actually make things work, and unfortunately a cs degree does not guarantee that. Then again I do not work at a huge company, nor have I any wish to.

Re:Check sourceforge

[anonymous_wombat]

When I graduated and was looking for my first job, the primary concern of employers was my work experience. They didn't even count my part-time job programming at the University.
Working on an open source project would probably allow the graduate to get a lot of useful nuts and bolts experience, but that is not something that they could put on a resume that anyone would care about (unless they were going to work at Red Hat).

Re:Check sourceforge

[KyleCordes]

It may not be useful for full-time, on-site, permantent employment. In my experience there, noone cares what you did if you weren't paid to do it.

However, on the other side of that, open source experience can be very valuable when seeking off-site, outsource development work. When I am looking for people to hire for that kind of work, is it *extremely* useful for them to have some code they can show me (open source!) so I can see what kind of code they write. If I am comparing developer A and developer B, and A says he wrote some great stuff but can't show me a line of it, and B says I can go look at his code, it's a lot easier to hire B.

Re:Check sourceforge

[plalonde2]

While it may be true that the OSS development environment is not management's idea of proving your worth in the work environment it *is* fundamentally useful at getting work.

I work as a technical manager in a large organization. One of our biggest hiring problems is sorting worthy recent graduates from unworthy recent graduates. There is very little that differentiates one resume from the next. In that environment (for new grads only, really) OSS development is a good sign of motivation and ability. It's frequently enough to move your application into the "interview" pile.

Re:Check sourceforge

[Anonymous Coward]

Programming? Why waste your time, pad're the wogs will do it all for $0.75 cents an hour.

Re:Check sourceforge

[zzyzx]

I don't know about that. At most of my interviews, I've brought up my Phish Stats website as a way of proving that I know how to write perl. It usually helps a lot in showing that I can write a decent web app.

Re:Check sourceforge

[Y B MCSE]

vary few of the software development skills msot companies look for are really developed or evaluated in the OSS world

Exactly right :-P (sorry sarcasm alert)

In an open source project you define a problem, break it down into its components and simplest definitions. Designa solution with other developers and implement it.

Does that beat coding at a major corporation, no. But you are looking for experience to open doors for you, so that should not be an issue as the major doors have not yet opened for you anyway. With consultants it is doubly useful. Would you hire the consultant who spends 30 hours a week waiting for his 10 billable hours or would you hire the one who spends thirty a week working on a passionate project in OSS thus plying his trade? I know who I hire.

Re:Check sourceforge

[number one duck]

err, and if that ploy had worked even once, you wouldn't have needed it for further interviews. But hell, I had brainbench certifications on mine, that was interesting

Re:Check sourceforge

[zzyzx]

I got hired... I just was contracting for a while.

Re:Check sourceforge

[nafeger]

I think this is a very valid point that perhaps employers will not consider it of supreme importance. However, regardless of what a potential company thinks, experience is experience. And if you get in the door, you'll be able to show off alot more, if in your spare time you coded part of mozilla's rendering engine versus, playing BattleNet

Re:Check sourceforge

[Anonymous Coward]

Students can also get internships with nonprofits that encourage open source development as part of their mission.

Examples are the nyc based technology collective http://mediajumpstart.org, which is developing the PHP-based Pagetool content management system for nonprofits. This project is at pagetool.org and the code is hosted on SourceForge.

A second example is the boston-based Organizers' Collaborative, a nonprofit that is working on three open source projects. See http://calf.democracygroups.org, and http://organizenow.net/ewrapper.html, and http://democracygroups.org. Most of the development they do is in Perl with Template Toolkit and MySQL. And they are looking into porting a visual basic nonprofit database application into Kylix.

Also, the web site http://idealist.org is based upon open source software, and they may even have funding for internships. You can search for an internship using their directory.

Finally there is another Boston based nonprofit, Kite (http://kiteinc.org) which is encouraging the use of open source software by grassroots groups overseas.

Re:Check sourceforge

[Saxerman]

Although my work on the LPC codebase didn't seem to interest any would-be employers, the actual experience of working on a large coding project as part of a team allowed me to hold my own against the guys who already had a few years experience against me. So while I would agree that it might not help you get a job OSS projects do serve two good purposes to college kids:

The first is that it allows you to get a taste for what real programming is like. I know a bunch of kiddies that found out later that programming wasn't there thing and then made the switch to network admin.

The second advantage is it does give you practical experience in working on real code as part of a team. This allows you see some non-textbook examples of code which taught me much more than anything I learned in school, and also might give you a taste for the communications skills that are important for any real programmer.

Re:Check sourceforge

[decesare]

SourceForge is a good place to start if you wanted to get involved in OSS development, but I would question whether such experience is truly valiable in the job market.

Having just gone through the interview cycle, I can say that most employers ask what languages and technologies you know and have worked with, period. Doesn't matter if you back it up with an OSS project or commercial work. And I have seen more than one job postings that mentioned OSS development as a "plus".

it really doesn't demonstrate an ability to work in a close knit team, to meet deadlines, to solve problems, enguage in project management activities (in the more treditional sense)

Huh? Meeting a constant stream of deadlines is what college is all about. Anyways, employers understand that a college grad won't have many of those skills anyways. That's why he/she starts off as a junior developer, and if said employer is smart, will pair them up with a senior engineer from whom the junior developer can learn.

What else do that have to do?

[jonestor]

However, starting their own project is a hard and time-consuming task.

Well, are they doing anything else?

Re:What else do that have to do?

[Aurorya]

Let's see, as a computer science major at a good college, i have classes and homework, sports, campus activities, signifcant other(s), friends, beer, crazy little stunts to keep life interesting, piano lessons, running, and a senior thesis to keep in mind. Going to college is much more involving than a 40-hour-a-week+commute job, where you live in an apartment or house, NOT surrounded by 200 other 18-22 year olds. You think about things from your classes and discuss them with people in other classes...not preparation for the real world, perhaps, but time consuming!

Now, if I wanted to start my own project, come up with some brilliant idea on my own and work on THAT too, I think i'd get even less sleep...

Re:What else do that have to do?

[Anonymous Coward]

as a computer science major at a good college, i have classes and homework, sports, campus activities, signifcant other(s), friends, beer, crazy little stunts to keep life interesting, piano lessons, running, and a senior thesis to keep in mind

Here's what you can do:

Forget sports, campus activities, piano lessons, and running. Cut your class time in half by not going half the time. These take up way too much time.

Stick with homework, significant other, friends, beer, crazy stunts, and senior thesis.

You'll be surprised at how much free time you have when you finally cut out all the silly extraneous things that you may feel obligated to do for whatever reason...

College is for getting drunk, getting high, and getting laid. It's about making connections with others, and if your time is taken up *doing stuff* instead of enjoying yourself, you'll waste the entire experience.

Re:What else do that have to do?

[Anonymous Coward]

oops, 2000. not 200

Re:What else do that have to do?

[ComputerSlicer23]

Hmm, the poster asks how to get experience, you list all the things you do while not getting experience.
If you want experience with programming, give up doing something (possibly sleep) you like doing and do play with some source code (which hopefully is something you like doing otherwise find a new major).
Hmmm, lucky you if you believe when you are a salaried employee you'll only work 40 hours. Lots of people work more then 40 a week. If you think people who work full time jobs are less busy when they get out of college you have a lot to learn about life. You'll want to keep doing all those things and have all those discusssions but there aren't enough hours in a day, or days in a week, weeks in a year or years in a lifetime. Pick the ones that are important do them, skip the rest.

Re:What else do that have to do?

[Anonymous Coward]

You have to remember that alot of people who have been, and are going to, Univeristy see it a burden. They do as little as they have to to get a grade.
If you are a good student, and try to get the most out of each class you will be busy all the time.

Re:What else do that have to do?

[bwalling]

Going to college is much more involving than a 40-hour-a-week+commute job

Are you nuts?

sports, campus activities, signifcant other(s), friends, beer, crazy little stunts to keep life interesting, piano lessons, running

Gee, you're right, you wouldn't have time to write a computer program. You seem to have far less free time than someone with a real job, a house to take care of, kids to take to practices every weeknight and games on Saturday and Sunday and to their friends' houses. If you think dating is time consuming, try marriage. where you live in an apartment or house, NOT surrounded by 200 other 18-22 year olds. Hmm, you're right. No 18-22 year olds here. Just a bunch of neighbor kids. Oh, and I own my house, so there is no landlord to fix everything for me.

I'd love to have the free time I had when I was in school.

Re:What else do that have to do?

[Dan Ost]

My experience is exactly opposite of yours.

I had very little free time when I was working
on my degrees. There were classes in the morning,
work in the afternoon (scholarships don't cover
everything), and homework until the wee hours
of the morning.

Now that I'm working full time, I'm done at 5.
All my nights are free and most weekends.

I guess the question is: what kind of school
did you go to and what kind of student were you?

--Dan

Re:What else do that have to do?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you kidding? When I was an undergrad, all I had was free time. Never went to class-- only went for tests and when assignments were due. I had so much R&R my blood pressure probably went down 100 points. If you don't relax while you're young, you'll probably never get a chane to do it again.

Re:What else do that have to do?

[Anonymous Coward]

>Let's see, as a computer science major at a
>good college, i have classes and homework,
>sports, campus activities, signifcant other(s),
>friends, beer, crazy little stunts to keep life
>interesting, piano lessons, running, and a
>senior thesis to keep in mind.

For some strange reason (at my university, anyway), the geeks with a clue tend to be the unathletic ones who are involved in no campus activities.

Re:What else do that have to do?

[Pr0p3r_Tr0ll4g3]

"I guess the question is: what kind of school
did you go to and what kind of student were you?"

University.
Terrible.
Next question.

Isn't that what Sourceforge is for?

[Anonymous Coward]

If the student is interested, just shoot the lead dev an email and he's in, right?

However, my advice in these troubled times is to continue having Ma and Pa keep footing the bill for education and get a Master's degree. When the tech slump ends, the student will be that much better off with more experience than he could shake a stick at. Another bonus is that his starting salary will likely be higher than a fresh recruit's.

Re:Isn't that what Sourceforge is for?

[Anonymous Coward]

An MSCS with 0 years experience is not going to get a whole lot extra $$$.

What makes you think that the tech slump is going to end? Unless you live in India or China that is ...

Re:Isn't that what Sourceforge is for?

[Anonymous Coward]

An MSCS with 0 years experience is not going to get a whole lot extra $$$.

But it does open doors that wouldn't be open to a normal undergrad. NSA, being one research facility that would be very interested in a grad with a crypto background.

What makes you think that the tech slump is going to end?

I don't think the slump has actually occurred. I believe that a lot of the money that was flowing into the hands of overpaid, underqualified programmers and web hacks is going to be redirected towards truly qualified people who can contribute to the technology push. India and China will gain a lot of the drudge programming jobs, I expect.

So a Master's would be a much better credential in the long run than 2 or 3 years of extra experience without the degree.

(I do not have a Master's)

Re:Isn't that what Sourceforge is for?

[bill_guts]

...my advice in these troubled times is to continue having Ma and Pa keep footing the bill for education and get a Master's degree

that's terrible advice! it's important to learn how to manage and make money in "bad" times as much as in "good" times. even for recent grads. open source projects won't bring in money, but getting involved could facilitate career goals.

Re:Isn't that what Sourceforge is for?

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe that the best financial advice that you could give anyone is that you can only become rich using OPM.

Don't work for your money. Make it work for you.

Re:Isn't that what Sourceforge is for?

[bill_guts]

i think we've read the same book...

Re:Isn't that what Sourceforge is for?

[Anonymous Coward]

The one with Danny DeVito? ;-)

Re:Isn't that what Sourceforge is for?

[bill_guts]

sorry, you lost me......

Re:Isn't that what Sourceforge is for?

[JordoCrouse]

Bad Advice

The first thing you will learn on the first day of your first job after school is that they didn't even begin to teach you what you need to know to be a successful programmer. All of your learning will be on the job experience. Sure, everyone once in a while, you might remember an alogrithm that they told you in school, and if somebody mentions a double linked hash table, you'll know what they're talking about, but other than that, all your knowlege will be garnered from experience.

When you go directly into a masters degree without having gained some of this real world experience, then you might have the higher salary, but you still know about as much as a BS graduate. And when the layoffs come, given simiilar skill sets, who will get the axe? The guy with the higher salary.

Get the experience, then go back and get your degree.

Re:Isn't that what Sourceforge is for?

[Anonymous Coward]

Danny DeVito

I figure you were talking about Kiyosaki's book, but I haven't read it.

Re:Isn't that what Sourceforge is for?

[Suppafly]

That's actually pretty good advice.. I know several people that either aren't ready to enter the work force or are having a hard time finding a job, (hell even people I know with 4.0's are having a hard time finding jobs atm) are either going back for a 2nd undergrad degree or continuing on for masters in CS.

Re:Isn't that what Sourceforge is for?

[goldspider]

Great post, my friend.

As a recent college graduate, the thing I felt most pointedly when starting my job with the government was how sorely lacking my real-business-world preparation was. Half of my major was (supposedly) business courses, but the environment I entered was completely different from what I expected.

The fact remains that experience is often more valuable than education. You can spend as long as you want in college attaining degrees, studying code, algorithms, and all sorts of neato programming stuff, but if you haven't experienced the business environment, you are STILL a rookie.

Re:Isn't that what Sourceforge is for?

[Dexx]

The problem is enough people could do this that, in time, a Masters is as valuable as a Bachelors is now.

So get ahead of the rush and go for your Doctorate.

Re:Isn't that what Sourceforge is for?

[Anonymous Coward]

However, my advice in these troubled times is to continue having Ma and Pa keep footing the bill for education and get a Master's degree.

I forsee a glut of Doctorate students in the future!

Seriously, this is what I would do right now if I were looking for work and didn't have a some-what secure government job. Those of you who are like me and don't have a "Ma" and "Pa" to foot your bill for more college I suggest that you find a nice place to hole up for a few years. I don't see how people with less than 2 years exp. (like me) can seriously hope to get decent jobs in the Real World right now.

Currently I am working on Government Owned Products to pay the bills (Big government contract, little tiny slice of it for me). I wanted to work with new technology making new products not maintain multi-million line software older than I am... but in this economy we do what we have to, even if it means doing jobs that are less than glamourous. So the only advice I have is to "suck it up" and get the crufty job you would have turned you snout up at.

...And if you are so far down on your luck that you don't even have that... consider a job that will allow you to use at least part your l33t skillz along with the job. Bank teller is better than grocery bagger, retail manager in a computer store is better than a floor stocker. If you have to go there, keep your skills sharp in your spare time remembering that the day job pays your bills and the night job (doing Open Source) pays your future.

I've been down there with you in the last year, only two years out of college and bagging groceries and talking in PL/SQL with the other cashiers (a very nerdy grocery store staffed by newly minted grads with CS degrees) but I didn't stay at the cash register for long and neither will you.

You have to do something to keep yourself sane in these times a job with a time card can provide that sanity safety net, just don't put it on your resume.

Re:Isn't that what Sourceforge is for?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're assuming that all of us lowly undergrads are getting the bills paid by mommy and daddy. Screw you. I'm a freshman in information systems (analytical, programming-based--not MIS). I work too damn hard to pay the bills to read this kind of crap.

Re:Isn't that what Sourceforge is for?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are a freshman, then you have at least 3 more years before you have to venture out into the full-time workplace. Hopefully the economy will rebound and positions will be plentiful.

Also, if you work at a related job for 4 years, then you already have 4 years experience by the time you graduate. That alone will put you head and shoulders above the students who have zero experience outside the classroom.

Plenty of possibilities

[ghutchis]

Most projects would love to see more help--simply find lead developers or maintainers and say hello. Or send a message to the project mailing list and ask about projects, suggestions, etc.

There are always features that have sat on the back burner, code to be cleaned up, etc. And of course I can tell you that as an undergrad, you often have more time to code.

-Geoff

Re:Plenty of possibilities

[Jim Hall]

When I was out hiring for our last open position at work (it's filled now ... don't send me email) I had been hoping to find someone with experience on an OSS project. That actually would have been my ideal, as I believe this offers real-life experience in a way that lets you dip your toes into the water on your own time.

But alas, that didn't happen. Maybe next time I need to do hiring...

If you want a suggestion, I would recommend helping out the FreeDOS Project. The FreeDOS Documentation Project (FD-DOC) lists a few of these suggestions for helping out with FreeDOS:

- Take any of the open projects on the FreeDOS Software List.

- Contribute to FreeCOM (our command.com) or the FreeDOS kernel. It's not as hard as you would think, especially if you start small by applying some bug fixes.

- Apply some contributed patches to Freemacs (a GNU emacs clone for DOS). The patches are already there .. you just need to apply them. This should be fairly easy!

- Patch an existing program to use Cats or MSGLIB to support internationalization. It's not hard .. just read through the docs and you'll be fine.

There are other things, too, but if you are looking for suggestions these should get you on your way. I'm sure that any sane employer will look on this as valuable experience, as you will have demonstrated the ability to work with others on a project, and contribute to the code.

Re:Plenty of possibilities

[Anonymous Coward]

That's a great idea.

Re:Plenty of possibilities

[Otter]

Most projects would love to see more help--simply find lead developers or maintainers and say hello. Or send a message to the project mailing list and ask about projects, suggestions, etc.

Better yet, send a patch -- fix a bug, add the skeleton of a feature, whatever strikes you as interesting. You're vastly more likely to attract the leader's attention if already you have something to show than just by saying, "I want to help. What should I do?"

Re:Plenty of possibilities

[AndrewCox]

First of all - if you're filling up your free time in college trying to beef up your coding experience, you're doing something wrong. It's college! You need to spend that free time playing Quake on the LAN, drinking beer or chasing women, man! Develop those ever-important social skills - you'll never be in college again ... and you'll have plenty of time to develop your coding skills later.

Now, this isn't to say that you should neglect your school work or your coding development. Definitely work extra hard in your programming classes - but if you keep up with the work or are just a super-duper-uber coder, the course work really shouldn't take up much time. Spend the rest of the time polishing up on your beer pong skills and use the summers for gaining more experience.

Second of all - probably the primary reason that I have the job that I have right now (I'm fresh out of college) is because of one freelance program that I did with a buddy of mine for a law firm. That experience and recommendation really impressed my boss and he still talks about it 4 months after I was hired. All of those people saying that open source development won't help your resume are definitely mistaken. It may not substitute for a full-time job, but it sure as heck is going to tip the scales in your favor against someone without "real world" programming skills.

sourceforge and freshmeat

[room101]

Yes, browse sourceforge and freshmeat for interesting projects that need help.

Rarely do you find stuff there that isn't in need of some kind of help. Sometimes, all they need a a little design/analysis work, sometimes they have modules to code. Check it out, you might just make someone's day.

Re:sourceforge and freshmeat

[room101]

Sorry to reply to my own post. But really, the secret to getting started in the OSS biz (yeah, biz, that's funny....) is to be willing to really get your hands dirty. That is, be willing to fix bugs and such. There are too many people only willing to work on new code. (yes me too) Many projects have too many cooks in the kitchen, too many "neat" little side projects that don't fit into what the main project is all about. Also, they add too many features and the same bugs are listed in each release.

Talk about really making the project lead's day, as for a prioritized bug list and get cracking on that.

Re:sourceforge and freshmeat

[Anonymous Coward]

which is why you don't let random people make design changes in the middle of the development process. unless of course those people happen to influence your income :/

Re:sourceforge and freshmeat

[room101]

too true. lol.

It is a shame that sometimes these "random people" aren't as random as they seem. Sometimes they are your boss or user group. 'Them's tha' breaks', as my dad used to say....

Not just experience

[www.sorehands.com]

The problem that some employers have with new grads is not just the lack of experience. It is also the lack of experience on large projects. Writing and maintaining a 2k-3k utility, even at a job, is very easy as compared to dealing with a small portion of a 250,000 line program.

Re:Not just experience

[Anonymous Coward]

Yup. Working with open source is good experience, just not necessarily the type of experience employers are looking for. But, it's certainly better than doing nothing.

Re:Not just experience

[neuroticia]

Hm. I basically agree with you, however I feel a few points must be made:

Coding one's own app from start to finish entails design, project management, coding, testing, quality assurance, etc. One person must play the part of an entire team. Programmers tend to be geek-inclined, therefore of higher-than-average intelligence. Take this highly proficient programmer and plop them in the middle of a group.

All of a sudden, the programmer who is used to overseeing their own projects from conceptualization to realization, they're plopped down in an environment where they either have to learn to "put up or shut up". The project managers are in charge of how things are done, and for a "new monkey" in the pack of typing monkeys, it's hard to make your voice heard no matter if you're right or not. FRUSTRATION.

For those who 'play well with others', making the leap into this environment of "distributed responsibility" won't be a difficult transition. However, geeks tend not to fit into this category. Can you name one single geek who is perfectly content to exist within an environment that must remind many of the whole "How many monkeys with how many typewriters..." question?

Hiring new grads of any "group" is a hard call to make, when the new grads consist of a group that is largely different than the majority of the population (ie: geeks) it's an even more difficult decision. Let's face it, we're a highly opinionated/unusual group and it's reassuring for employers to see past work experience on our resumes. That way they at least feel prepared when we start getting into battles with the project manager about releasing software labled as version 9 when it is really more along the lines of .9.

No one wants the responsibility of breaking the news that this is a flawed world we live in, and that sometimes, yes. Sometimes we must use a WYSIWYG editor.

-Sara

Re:Not just experience

[rbeattie]

And, well, make sure that 250,000 line program is written in something marketable like Java, C or C++. Your offers will diminish if you're playing around with non-corporate languages like Perl. Or you'll be forever banished to maintaining 5 year old CGI scripts...

Go ahead, mod me down. It's true though...

-Russ

Re:Not just experience

[clueless_penguin]

The thing that most people seem to be missing is that the workplace is _not_ usually filled with geeks. I've worked at 2 defense contractors and 2 commercial companies - none had any "geeks" worthy of the name. If someone can't interact with normal humans, they have no place in the workplace. My current job is the only one I've had where projects have been under 800,000 lines of code. These obviously require a team effort, and if you can't work in a team you'll be tossed aside to rot (that's easier than firing you, in most cases).

That said, when deciding between 2 candidates, I'll generally take the one who can show he's done something useful, and a contribution to an OSS project will do that. But above all, this person _must_ fit in reasonably well with the rest of the group. Coding is only part of the job.

Re:Not just experience

[wdr1]

And, well, make sure that 250,000 line program is written in something marketable like Java, C or C++. Your offers will diminish if you're playing around with non-corporate languages like Perl.

Not true.

In college, for my senior AI project, I developed a large application in Perl to watch a user surf the web and suggest related materially. Kinda like Netscape "What's Related", but when Netscape was Mosaic. Since these were the day before proxy servers, before CPAN had built up much steam, the application was pretty large.

As the AI dept at my school where some slanted towards theory and AI at the time, the two other languages I used the most where Scheme and Lisp.

I got a job, a good one at that, no problem, and no it wasn't doing CGIs. In fact, even though I work for a large-ish web company now, my first job wasn't web-centric at all. Looking back, I wish I had gotten more exposure to C/C++, but that's not difficult to make up for with a few good book, and the exposure they gave to theory, helped make up for it.

So IMHO using Perl and other "non-corporate" languages does not condem you to being a CGI monkey. (Note if all you do during college is Perl CGIs, and that's all you really got, that however, is a different matter...)

Anyway my two cents,
-Bill

Senior Design

[Dr. Bent]

Many 'Senior Design' (aka Capstone) courses are ideal for open-source projects. You gain valuable experience, contribute to the open-source community, and get course credit! Plus, sometimes these projects translate into actual jobs when you get out of school.

Many professors will let you work on O.S. projects if you find one than can be completed in the alloted time, and if it's relevant to some of your other coursework. Of course, this depends greatly on the professor, but you'll never know if you don't ask.

Re:Senior Design

[Anonymous Coward]

Having done such a project, and being unemployed 9 months after the fact...I can say that this will not be enough to get you a job.

sf.net

[mlk]

Look up the "jobs" section, find a project you like & go for it.

The thing is, how much weight does this have?
n my exprenence not much. They (interviewers) don't need to see your technical skill (you passed Uni, you have it) but your team work skills (shows a bit in OSS), project managment (oss does not count for much) and how well you work in a comersal(sp) envoroment (not shown AT ALL in an OSS project).

mike

Well...

[Anonymous Coward]

What about a request board for different projects where developers can list features they'd like help with? Documentation is also always a problem area? Perhaps they could pitch in on that?

No.

[Oliver Defacszio]

I have a car, does that make me a qualified F1 driver? No, and this is no better. Doing what you enjoy on your own time is much, much, much different than having a PHB breathing down your neck while trying to do what you enjoy. That's why there are fifty million hacks working on a replacement for something that doesn't need replacing in the comfort of their homes and an extremely small number of genuinely good professional coders.

As an employer, I would treat "open source development" on a resume the same way as "built web sites for my family".

Re:No.

[Raleel]

Would you say that if the project were Mozilla? If the project were Gnome? If the project were XFree86?

Re:No.

[maxpublic]

you mean like "have MCSE"?

Max

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes to the first two without question. Upon further thought probably yes to the third as well. Seriously it's not the projects but what a just out of school comp sci major would do for those projects that have serious pros already on them.

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

#include "sarcasm.h"

Oh yeah, that must be why RedHat never hires any kernel hackers from the open source community; bunch of rank know nothing amateurs, that lot.

Re:No.

[Macrobat]

As an employer, I would treat "open source development" on a resume the same way as "built web sites for my family".

Well, if somebody said he built web sites for anyone, I'd look at the web sites before I dismissed him offhand.

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

Gee Mozilla that really shows you can meet a deadline...

In the real world you actually have to fix the bugs and make a release, not just keep adding features you think are nifty and never fix any bugs.

Mozilla on a resume says "Recycle Me".

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

With total Red Hat profits in the history of the company hovering around six bucks, they have no other options. Nice try, though.

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're also a two-bit porn jockey, from what I see of your website, so I don't think are the 'norm', when it comes to employers.

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't recall ever saying that Nerve was my site. It seems you look pretty stupid all of a sudden.

OD

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

You like checking out those family websites don't you. Like looking at his 14 year old sister's gynamastics pictures, don't you? Freakin pervert, you should be locked up.

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

Totally disagree, it always depend on the oss project itself, and the nature of your (maybe) futur job.

If I apply at Microsoft to work in the NT kernel, and don't have any "real-job" kernel experience, maybe if I say that I worked in the Linux kernel team, and or OpenBeOS kernel team, etc, then I think it can help.

This is not to prove any "real-job-day-to-day" skills, but to prove you have at least a technical experience in a very specific field, and that you don't start from nothing.

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

User Info for Oliver Defacszio (550941)

http://www.nerve.com/

that is your website fool, your user info says so

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

As an employer, I would treat "open source development" on a resume the same way as "built web sites for my family".

Looking forward to seeing your operation on fuckedcompany.com (assuming it ever grows large enough to warrant such). With your attitude its demise is inevitable.

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

User Info for Oliver Defacszio (550941) http://www.nerve.com/

I've seen better sites put together by an elementary school teacher with a bootleg copy of FrontPage.

All sorts of badly-designed crap that will break horribly if someone is using a non-standard browser or who surfs with Javascript turned off.

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you even used Mozilla lately, you no-coding, no-doing idjit?

Re:No.

[awayfar]

I'm sure you realize that OSS is responsible for many of the things programmers, sysadmins, etc are hired to maintain and extend. I'm sure of it. Not that any of it is any good. After all, who uses Apache? Like one guy, right? And Linux? Any two-bit hack could have put that together in spqre time between sitcoms. These amazing examples of OSS are the result of collabaration and teamwork on a scale grander that most "real companies" could ever hope to achieve. Think very hard before you turn gifted programmers and developers away because they didn't pay $10,000 and don't have a "Certificate of Achievement" for the skills they have.
My job consists of 95% OSS products and infrastructure and the rest are mostly tools to assist our developers in these infrastructures. An environment that requires real programmers with real-life skills aren't afraid to look in the OSS community.
People who paste pictures into an IIS server and call it a job might be, though.

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

You will just be an average nobody who lives life remembering the good old college days when he was cool and partied all day while he sits at his boring job till he dies.

Re:No.

[Anonymous Coward]

that is your website fool

No, it's the website in my profile. If everyone was actually involved with the website in his profile, goatse.cx would have about 300,000 webmasters.

OD

Re:No.

[biglig2]

Exactly, you're in an interview and the hirer mentions that he'll need you to do some admin of their apache server, being able to say "yeah, I wrote some of that" (and back it up of course) is going to catch their attention a little, don't you think?

Academic Research

[slcdb]

Although, not all students will get positions on research staff, and it usually doesn't pay all that great... research staff positions are available at most universities.

Plus, (at the risk of getting flamed) most commercial software companies will give more credence to someone with a research background than to someone who worked on the latest Open Source project.

Re:Academic Research

[gwernol]

Plus, (at the risk of getting flamed) most commercial software companies will give more credence to someone with a research background than to someone who worked on the latest Open Source project.

That's arguable. The case where it is clearly true is where the company is working in a highly technical field that your research is directly relevant to. For example if do a PhD on highly efficient 3D rendering algorithms you will be of great interest to several games companies. If your research is in number theory I know several financial software firms who'd love to talk to you.

But, if you have done research in graphics, you probably aren't going to be interesting to a bank.

A research background will probably make you highly attractive to a very small number of specialized software companies. Good experience on a successful open source project is likely to be more attractive to much larger number of general software development shops.

Finally only take a research position at a university if you really love the subject you are going to be researching. You must have a vocation for this work. Its badly paid, you'll get little recognition and you will need to be very good at what you do. Its not for the faint of heart.

subversive advertising

[prockcore]

"Frank, sourceforge needs more hits... we'll need to buy a few banner ads"

"Nah, I've got a better idea, why not post an Ask Slashdot question where the most obvious answer is 'sourceforge'? Like 'where can I find a bunch of open source developers?'"

"Great.. I'll get right on it.."

Re:subversive advertising

[e2d2]

Haha, Sourceforge needs more hits. Obviously you don't use it to host a project.

Problem with listing OSS?

[Ent]

Could there be a problem with listing OSS on the resume? Would an employer be turned off by the chance somebody might accidently re-use GPL/etc. code in their closed source app and thus not want to hire a person?

I am not sure I would list the software specificly as OSS but maybe just say you worked on a software project with frinds/etc..

Re:Problem with listing OSS?

[Anonymous Coward]

Employers would probably be more concerned that they are a raving zealot following Stallman than possible code reuse.

Re:Problem with listing OSS?

[Gopal.V]

Hey you are right. The FS guys may be too obessed with the freedom part..... (I am). But the employer recognises the programming skills all too clearly when he sees the code being used in a production envronment.

I think the GPL/X licensing etc are conducive to academic progress . They encourage programmers to work hard to show off ... and build good community efforts and interactions.

My college/university insists that our project work be published (under the GPL of course).

Too many M$ undergrads....

[Tiresias_Mons]

Everyone is in computer science for the money these days.

We tried to get an Open Source Development group together at my school, 5 people showed up. One guys was like, "With Open Source we can go download everyone's source code and resell it for thousands of dollars. Its work free!" Yeah, ummm....I think he kinda missed the boat...

Too many colleges are indebited to M$ and so that mentality is pervasive in Colleges and Universities. I'm sure a good portion of undergradatues across the US (I can guarantee that's the case at my school) haven't ever been to Sourceforge.

Re:Too many M$ undergrads....

[Anonymous Coward]

> Everyone is in computer science for the money these days.

yes, its a shame, but dont think that *all* are in it for the money. there are still some of us who love to do it, even when we are doing it for free ;)

danb

Re:Too many M$ undergrads....

[Anonymous Coward]

>>we are doing it for free ;)

Suckers ... IBM is making millions off idiots such as you.

Re:Too many M$ undergrads....

[Anonymous Coward]

"We tried to get an Open Source Development group together at my school, 5 people showed up. One guys was like, "With Open Source we can go download everyone's source code and resell it for thousands of dollars. Its work free!" Yeah, ummm....I think he kinda missed the boat..."

Ya he missed the boat alright, Apple beat him to it...

Re:Too many M$ undergrads....

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget Apple and Sun.

Re:Too many M$ undergrads....

[Anonymous Coward]

Same story in the UK i'm afraid....

Re:Too many M$ undergrads....

[Anonymous Coward]

When I first entered my university 5 years ago, there were a lot of people who saw the tech industry doing very well and that was where the money was, but over time a lot of those people got weeded out. Now in one my graduate classes I'm the only guy from America there. The rest are from India & China, not that it's a bad thing, I'm friends with a lot of them. But, there are only a few people who will work that hard, and most of them will not do it if the money isn't there.

Secondly, if I wanted to get money easily, I'd become a political science or business major (MBA). These people probably make more than any programmer, and they get more chicks.

Re:Too many M$ undergrads....

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that a case of two in the hand isn't worth one in the Bush?

Re:Too many M$ undergrads....

[Dexx]

Everyone is in computer science for the money these days.

Not everyone. I was one of about 5 computer geeks at my rural high school, so I didn't get into it to improve my social life. I went into it because I liked the field.

I encountered the 'no experience so no job' paradox when I got my BSc, so I went in for an information security specialization. Now I'm further in debt and more skilled and specialized and desperate to find a job even vaguely related to computers. I've been working at a convenience store for the last three months, barely making ends meet. (For some reason, they want you to pay back your student loands.. go figure..)

Re:Too many M$ undergrads....

[Anonymous Coward]

Alright, let's say that you're right..how come all the universities in North America didn't drop Java as the typical language for lower-level courses and pick up C# instead? Since they're so indebted to Microsoft and all.

Re:Too many M$ undergrads....

[Anonymous Coward]

I am sorry man but there is something wrong with you then.
I know tons of people , right now, who are changing jobs some of them right out of college.
I have no idea where you are but in Chicago there is no problem with jobs.
Not as sweet as it used to be 2 years ago but if you are willing to take lower salary you will find a job.

Re:Too many M$ undergrads....

[Anonymous Coward]

You have to be in the right spot at the right time...

Well..

[Jonathan Hamilton]

As a student of Flordia State University (the number 1 rated party school by Playboy and Princeton Review.) I can tell you that anything which cuts in on our drinking/smoking time is looked down upon as a needless waste of time.

Your not going to find any programmers in college willing to work on a project longer then 1 hour a day that is too confusing to code drunk or high.

Re:Well..

[Anonymous Coward]

For the record every school beside BYU says they are the party school of the country.

Re:Well..

[Jonathan Hamilton]

But does the Princeton Review and Playboy magazine say that every other university is the #1 party school?

Nope just FSU for the last 2 years in a row.
Thank you very much.

Re:Well..

[Anonymous Coward]

FSU is 4th according to Princeton Review you didn't even make the Playboy list,.

Now go back to your worthless frat and tell all the brothers you're transferring to Tennessee.

Re:Well..

[Anonymous Coward]

Woohoo now that's something to be proud of!!

I'm sure all the people at Harvard and MIT are jealous.

For kernel-related work...

[eli173]

consider kerneljanitors.org

Heck, it's experience for all of us!

[Anonymous Coward]

So I've been out of college maybe a year, freelancing for varying amounts of cash, but during slacker periods I'm damned sure to be working on an open source project or two. In fact the last project I chipped into (hint: an internal company project that's open source software) has resulted in a short-term contract and offer of work overseas. So go for it, I say: these kind of corporate sponsored open-source projects offer plenty of opportunity to prove yourself.

I've done this kind of mentorship

[sphix42]

DISCLAIMER: I'm not currently looking for more help.

While my site (db.etree.org) is not (all) open source, I have mentored a student (hey Eric) while he developed code now used on my site.

His school assignment was designing and implementing something from start to finish. He asked to work on top of the work (adding new code) I had done as his project. I hooked him up with a shell and CVS and we had quite a few phone conversations where (I hope) I taught him quite a bit.

We both benefited from the relationship in the end. Eric contacted me directly with a plan to enhance my site. This method worked very well for us...that is, someone looking for experience came up with a plan for an existing project and asked to do itand, in return, I mentored him.

Re:I've done this kind of mentorship

[Anonymous Coward]

Some dude's assignment was "design something from start to finish", what kind of assignment is that? you pay a professor how much to come up with curriculum like that!
I bet you did alot more than mentor him (wink-wink-nudge-nudge-know-what-i-mean)

Re:I've done this kind of mentorship

[cmdr_beeftaco]

There should be an automatic mod up for Monty Python quotes. Is somebody working on that???

Re:I've done this kind of mentorship

[kyras]

There should be an automatic mod up for Monty Python quotes. Is somebody working on that???

Maybe we could get some college students to do it (from start to finish, even) and then open source it.

Re:I've done this kind of mentorship

[EvlG]

I'v worked as a co-op under the same mentor for almost three years, and I can say hands down that I am a much better software engineer as a result.

Mentoring is a crucial aspect to career development, I think.

Here's where to start.

[Stillman]

I believe it's a great idea.

here would be a great place to begin.

Could look great on your CV and benefit the OS community as a whole.

Another method to go about it

[JPriest]

You could go to SF and pick some project at random and start helping with it, or, you could try to stop using closed source software, when you need to do something that you could not otherwise do with an open source solution, or if you are using an open source project that lacks a certain functionality, you've found a good place to start contributing.

Educated?

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't you mean "bleak" rather than "meek"?

Re:Educated?

[betis70]

No they are just shy job prospects. You have to talk to them for a little while before they come out from their coding cave.

But you still have little chance of getting to home plate with them.

I find myself in a Similar Situation...

[Joe Jordan]

I'm well on my way to graduating with a CS degree, but nothing beats real world experience. According to my advisor, if a potential employer sees an internship or a summer job that involves tasks similar to the position you are seeking, they are almost sure to give you a second look, and possibly a third.

Does anyone know if a hobby shareware site counts as job experience?

Re:I find myself in a Similar Situation...

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know that it could count as "job experience," but if it was a major undertaking you could certainly include a section on your resume for "Significant Projects" (or some such heading) and put it there, along with, say, your senior project. This would work particularly well if the sort of thing you did is related to the sort of job you want.

Re:I find myself in a Similar Situation...

[Rudeboy52]

I wouldnt count on it, unless you could justify the amount of effort you put into it and the quality of the work as "real-world caliber".

Re:I find myself in a Similar Situation...

[Anonymous Coward]

[According to my advisor]

If your advisor knew what the phuck s/he was saying, they would not be an advisor.

government contracts

[Anonymous Coward]

your salvation is here. Government contracts' labor catagories really care absolutely nothing about skill, talent, motivation or competency. If you have a technical degree you are qualified. Don't try to use any open source (or ANY non 'official' programs) as they don't care, nor do many other bloated and over managed companies. If you have a portfollio that has specific programs that prove competency in certain fields and such... who cares?! So, your best bet is really to simply rely on that degree and go from there. If you are motivated and competent, then I suggest avoiding big companies (big IT companies Ironically) and stick to smaller companies that are more interested in results than processes.

bah

[nomadic]

If there are no jobs, there are no jobs. How is making yourself better qualified for jobs that don't exist helpful?

Re:bah

[Afterimage]

Simple, it's the nature of entrepreneurship.

While more jobs may not exist now, past history indicates they will at some point in the future. That's likely to be sooner than later.

I see three advantages here for the open source college worker;
1. Real world experience. So, simply having code that completes the assignment isn't good enough. Code that satisfies the users, project organizer and maintainers is the higher bar (insert separate discourse on quality of open source code...)
2. Real world references. In my last job switch, my new employer was looking for work references. How I performed in a working environment. Not a reference from an instructor I cornered or completed a research project with.
3. the project may (not likely, but possible) become a sellable product and employ the student in that fashion. Bam! Job creation.

Re:bah

[jtourville]

If there are no jobs, there are no jobs. How is making yourself better qualified for jobs that don't exist helpful?

It's not that there are no jobs out there. It's that there are fewer jobs. Fewer jobs means more competition for each position, which means the more qualified applicant gets the job. While I don't know how much weight this kind of experience has with employers, it does look better than no experience at all.

Re:bah

[Anonymous Coward]

"Fewer jobs means more competition for each position, which means the more qualified applicant gets the job"

No the indian on the H1B visa who is willing to work for 28k and can't complain about working 14 hours a day becuase he needs the job or he gets deported gets the job.

Re:bah

[passion]

umm, the economy is cyclical.

That means that in a year or two things will be different. True, things could get worse... though I doubt it. We're suffering from deflated exuberance caused by a lot of VC being placed behind shoddy business plans, combined with the psychological impact of Shrubya's comments right around the election "We're going to have a recession", topped off with the effects of a major terrorism strike.

Most of the unfit companies have closed their doors, but some of the stronger ones have survived and have diversified their business plans to make them stronger. W has come around and said that we're having a recovery. Finally - we've routed the Taliban out of Afghanistan, and unless they've massively reorganized in another part of the world, I doubt that we'll see many more large terrorism strikes that catch us by surprise. We're on guard now.

The big uncertainties are whether or not W will decide to invade Iraq to finish the job his daddy didn't finish, and whether the rest of the world gets pissed at the US for it, on top of snubbing the Kyoto and ABM treaties.

Do I need to spell it out further? Right now there aren't many tech jobs out there. If you don't have a job you essentially have 2 more choices:

• A) find another field
• B) huddle in your bunker and refine your skills while waiting for the cycle to swing back up.

I don't know about you, but I love working with computers, and want to continue doing so. Do you think that Olympic athletes give up skiing just because they're no snow outside?

Capitalize on what you know

[GSV NegotiableEthics]

Assuming we're talking about talented coders who have knowledge of computer science but want experience, some logical places to start are Linux Kernel Mailing List, the various monolithic BSD projects, Debian and WineHQ. These are two ongoing open source areas where new blood is always welcome and the best of open source coders gravitate.

Others will suggest starting with sourceforge, but in my experience a young coder doesn't want to pick somebody else's ideas and run with them s/he wants to find a way to test out new ideas and see if they'll work. Avoid isolation, try to find a team that has an agenda but permits arguments and discussion. Open source is a must, because you're always free to veer off on your own development tree if your ideas diverge from or are preempted by the requirements of the project.

One question you will ask more than any others...

[Anonymous Coward]

...would you like fries with that?

Seriously, I would NEVER hire a programmer that has ZERO business experience...

Writing software is not hard. Just look around, if writing software was hard, there would not be so much freeware / open-source software out.

Writing up project plans, sticking to deadlines, THAT is what is important.

Too many folks that think being able to write programs is the end all...

Do the modalities mix?

[edashofy]

It seems that one of the repeated claims about open-source software is that the best developers are sort of self-selected in a meritocratic system. However, throwing college undergrads at the problem certainly isn't going to garner a whole herd of the "best developers" out there. In fact, most of them will be downright awful.

So, would this be useful, or would it end up throwing a lot of buggy, fragile patches at software and overwhelming the lead developers?

right on with this article

[mrcparker]

We were hiring a few programmers a few months ago and we got a whole lot of applicants fresh out of college. My boss wouldn't even look at them, as their resumes did not contain any practical programming experience.

If any of those guys had contributed to at least one free software project they would have had a job. Contributing to a project is a great way of getting your hands in a large project, gaining the experience of working with a team, and it produces code that an employer can look at.

If I was graduating from college right now and was having trouble getting a job I would definitly contribute to at least one free software project. Not only is it a great resume builder but it keeps you from getting rusty.

not to fools

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone know if a hobby shareware site counts as job experience?

too bad it doesn't. If I was an employer then it would, because I care about results. However one thing you will soon learn about corporate and government (same thing) mentality is that policy and process ALWAYS overrule in a case where there is a discrepancy between the two. Suits care nothing about the long term, and just want to cash in. The average IT company is not a company of technology, rather it is a company of managers, marketers and administration.

You're better off doing an...

[Anonymous Coward]

Internship/Co-op with a company.

That's the #1 thing companies look for (next to GPA) when they look at your resume. While coding experience on a project outside of school/work does look nice, the most important thing is to get an internship/co-op at an established company.

A company doesn't want to know if you've worked on a small or large project; they want to know if you've worked (and if so, how well) in a company working in a team environment, problems you encountered/solved, etc.

Coding on an open source or other 'for fun' projects mainly show that you enjoy coding, not that you would be a good employee/coder.

Re:You're better off doing an...

[patoco12]

Internship/Co-op with a company. That's the #1 thing companies look for (next to GPA) when they look at your resume.

I'm glad somebody finally pointed this out. We have to remember that companies interested in actually making money (the same ones that pay) are looking for potential along with experience. Internships (generally served during the summer) are the BEST way to market yourself. It gives the applicant material to talk about at an interview as well as to post on a resume.

Re:You're better off doing an...

[James1006]

I think that if you can say to a company "Yeah, my code is in the Linux kernel" or some other big name project* that might actually be running on that company's systems, I think that is very impressive.

* You could be talking to a management goon who has no idea about anything. In fact, his biggest accomplishment was that he dressed himself that morning.

Better idea: Go throw your hat into...

[kuknalim]

the Google Programming Contest. That way you'd at least have some monetary incentive ($10000 prize), and who knows if Google likes your idea, you might get hired.

Open Source development *IS* a job

[Ogerman]

from the getting-experience-before-getting-that-all-importa nt-1st-job dept.

Open Source as programming experience? Excuse me, but Open Source development is not just a playground to warm up on before moving on to a "real job" writing proprietary software. If you desire to program for a living you can and should make a career out of doing Open Source development. It is absolutely mind boggling how much Slashdot editors have taken a stance against this ever since VA went proprietary. Well don't listen to the fools. There are plenty of legitimate and highly stable ways to make money writing free software. The most convenient way is consulting. In one form or fashion, offer clients a complete 'turn-key' solution: customized software, support, training, etc. Find some buddies who are also into Open Source and form a consulting group. Start small if everyone lacks experience, but you should really try to find someone who knows the ropes to serve as a mentor.

Don't believe the FUD, my friends. There is absolutely NO need for ANY proprietary software in this world. Those who argue otherwise do so only because they have a vested interest in proprietary venues and are afraid that the snowballing Open Source revolution is going to obsolete their enterprise. Well guess what? It's going to anyways. Choose your sides.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Anonymous Coward]

Zealot alert, zealot alert!

Danger Newbie college grad, danger!

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[furiousgeorge]

>>Don't believe the FUD, my friends. There is
>>absolutely NO need for ANY proprietary
>>software in this world.

wow. I wished I lived in your world. It probably rains lollypops and kittens too.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[GSV NegotiableEthics]

Open Source as programming experience? Excuse me, but Open Source development is not just a playground to warm up on before moving on to a "real job" writing proprietary software. If you desire to program for a living you can and should make a career out of doing Open Source development.

No will do. Like it or not, software is intellectual property. *My* intellectual property, the stuff that keeps food on the table and my kids warm and dry. *I* write it, *I* decide how to license it. Open source is an option. One option.

There is absolutely NO need for ANY proprietary software in this world.

Of course not, but there is a need to feed programmers, and one option for that is to pay us to write software which is distributed without source. Then we have lots of money and spare time to spend on open source projects.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[God_Retired]

Like I heard a guy once say:

If you make your living selling water in the desert and it starts to rain, you can bitch and moan about how unfair it is, or you can take a look around a sell umbrellas.

Code monkey's always act like they deserve the world. Sorry. It's something that I do for fun and I like to do when I have the time. I received a degree in something totally unrelated. This has allowed me to keep my kid warm and dry.

Take a look around (no not just around your neighborhood or state, but the world), see the growing number of quality Free Software apps coming out of every corner of the world. You can bitch and moan about it, or jump on board. Either way you're not going to stop the righteous momentum.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[JordoCrouse]

You remind me of a guy who I went to school with that was bound and determined to live outside of the capitalist system (but still stay in the United States). I'm happy to say he has managed to stay alive without spending any money, because he joined the military. Other than that, he would have lots of ideals, but no food on the table.

I love open source, I really do. And I think that open source is going to change the world. I love the idea of lots of people can write free code and make it work. But you know what? For every piece of free code that gets made, there is some propriatary code that doesn't.

All these guys running your Open Source revolution all have jobs. Torvalds is at Transmeta, Cox works for Red Hat, etc. But at some point, everybody gets some support from proprietary software (or custom engineering, which more often than not, is proprietary as well), becuase in the end, like all things, it puts food on our table. Fortunately, it also frees many of us up to produce the open source software that you depend on.

Only one guy has managed to live off his ideals of writing free software, and the only way he could do that is to convince the rest of us to support him. I doubt that will work twice.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[curunir]

Keep dreaming...anyone who is successful through programming open source software has more than likely pulled a stint or two at a *real* job. There's certain things that just can't be gained programming free software that employers look for.

When we look for new programmers, beyond language proficiency, we look for the ability to write a quality TSD (from an FSD). Writing sofware is more than just writing code. They should also be able to deal with management. This can end up being a big deal for some programmers. Thirdly (and sadly), in this tight market, we look for personal references from people who already work here. We simply discard most resumes that are sent to us from strangers. While open source will help you network, it probably won't work as well as a *real* job (knowing management types is *much* more useful than knowing programmers).

These types of experience are very difficult to get programming free software. Free software, by its nature, doesn't have much of the structure that is placed on proprietary software. Like it or not, people who produce proprietary software want people to have experience developing proprietary software.

However, there is hope for recent grads. During the internet boom, grads would get $100k jobs right out of school. But now that we're back to the real world, the old methods apply again. Get an internship. Companies are still willing to take the risk of hiring someone with little to no experience provided they're spending little to no money on him/her. Then, when you have 6 mo. to a year of experience under your belt, then you can start applying for a full paying job.

I'm all for developing open source software, but do it because you love it, not because you think it will get you a job. Open source isn't a shortcut...it's the scenic route.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Anonymous Coward]

that's not right. that's just his opinion it's your choice to license however you want. what could've happened if microsoft for example didn't make produce proprietary software? would open-source the way to go? I think so. THere are bunch of open-source codes out there that can provide tremendous change on the software industry.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[GSV NegotiableEthics]

You can bitch and moan about it, or jump on board. Either way you're not going to stop the righteous momentum.

Oddly enough, there has never been a better time to be a person with my software skills. Open source is nice, but it's something I do _after_ I put bread on the table.

And I'm certainly not one to bitch and moan, I simply point out that I couldn't make much of a living solely by writing open source software (at this point you might like to check the subject line, the bit that claims that oss *is* a job).

I think open source software is a job for quite a few people, but worldwide the software industry needs millions of code monkeys. What we do for the most part simply isn't worthy of publication, we're implementing and gluing, we're producing just that little bit more and we're chasing a market, always finding an app that nobody else has found, always trying to keep our competitors from having what we have. You can have the code _after_ we've cornered the market.

I'll come home and find a few hours to mess with a bit of code. And you get that for free, but that isn't what feeds my kids.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Dexx]

I'm glad I don't live in his world. Raining kittens would hurt. And be messy.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Ogerman]

FUD alert, FUD alert!

Danger Jaded Old Programmer, danger!

(some of us can still think for ourselves)

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Ogerman]

wow. I wish I lived in your world.

So do I. What say we not limit ourselves and create that world. 'course it won't work if nobody has the guts to try it.

Income from Open Source means Consulting and Services.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL

Its 2002, in case you slept through the last 2 years.

Selling turnkey solutions is a good strategy, but you will have a much easier time getting customers if you show them how your proprietary system is superior to your competitors. If every Tom, Dick and Harry is selling the same GPLed turnkey solution that you are, then, even if you are the best salesperson in the world, you will not get as much business.

Professional OSS developers are nothing more than a few programmers mistaking their hobby for their job. And, often, their "job" is working in an academic setting.

Anonymous Realist

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Ogerman]

Open source is nice, but it's something I do _after_ I put bread on the table. ...
I'll come home and find a few hours to mess with a bit of code. And you get that for free, but that isn't what feeds my kids.

It's your choice. You can just as well make your living off the free software development you enjoy. Right now, that may mean being your own boss. But trust me, the money's out there.

Money in Open Source means Consulting and Services.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Ogerman]

You remind me of a guy who I went to school with that was bound and determined to live outside of the capitalist system

I'm not at all suggesting living outside the capitalist system. Writing software as a service rather than charging licensing fees makes it a labor market. Labor markets are a far purer form of capitalism than government-enabled monopolies (copyright, etc).

You people need to lose the assumption that OSS must be written apart from ones "day job." It simply isn't true. If you can't get hired this way, strap on a set and be your own boss.

Money from Open Source means Consulting and Services.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Ogerman]

When we look for new programmers, beyond language proficiency, we look for the ability to write a quality TSD .... We simply discard most resumes that are sent to us from strangers. .... These types of experience are very difficult to get programming free software. Free software, by its nature, doesn't have much of the structure that is placed on proprietary software. Like it or not, people who produce proprietary software want people to have experience developing proprietary software.

Talk about missing the point! I bet you're an MBA aren't you? What part of "we don't need ANY proprietary software" did you not understand. That's right. No proprietary software. As in: Proprietary software is going the way of the dinosaur. Deal with it.

The point is, smart programmers don't NEED the corporate "we" that you refer to a dozen times in your argument. That is the beauty of Open Source. You don't have to do everything yourself. Structure falls into place naturally. All you have to do is take what exists and extend it as people needs dictate. For that, those people WILL pay you if you offer a better total solution than proprietary competitors.

Income from Open Source means Consulting and Services.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[furiousgeorge]

>>Income from Open Source means Consulting
>>and Services.

in other words, make your software so shitty and unreliable that people need to pay you so they can keep it functioning? And people bitch and moan about MSFT's subscription policies.... this is the same thing.

Here's a real world example:

The last company I worked for, we produced a very high end, specialized application with a limited user base (it is used for doing movie special effects). When we launched a new product recently, it was the work of about 40 developers, working full time for almost 4 years. That doesn't count people writing documentation, QA testers, support staff, the people that clean the toilets, etc etc etc. All told, probably between 150-200 people. So lets *conservatively* estimate the development costs at $15 million (and that is VERY conservative).

Now this work took FOUR YEARS. So when it comes time to release it, we should just give it away and expect and there will 'magically' be money to pay the rent and food for all these people? Cmon already. Should they survive on happy thoughts and good wishes?

This shows the mindset why Eazel was such a beautiful failure. They were paying these developers to produce work and had NO way to generate money.... they didn't even sell t-shirts. Yes it's very altruistic and benefits the community, but sooner or later it's going to flame out because it can't last forever - the money will run out.

If people want to give away their work for free -- more power to them. I write code for a living 9-5. And i also produce open source code after hours that I give away. And that works fine. I don't see any differentiation between giving away code you write and going down and volunteering at your local community center. People can definitely benefit from it, but don't expect that it's going to pay your rent. And don't declare that there is no right/future in charging for your work.

Software costs money to produce - you can't debate that. If you don't want to pay for your software, you're free to use the stuff that people give away and thats good. Same thought process that you don't have to pay for your groceries - you can go to a soup kitchen. Thats all well and good, but you lose the right to complain if you don't like whats provided.

I'll give you an example. We PAY to use Qt for our development. Why? It's an excellent toolkit. Sure we could use gtk for free --- but for the headache that Qt saves me $2000/year is a BARGAIN.
Same with compilers --- the open source crowd loves gcc. Hate to step on any toes but gcc is pretty sucky. Yes it is good for retargeting code, but the performance is terrible. To build the latest release of Qt on Win32 took about 45 minutes. On linux (exact same hardware) took 3-1/2 hours with gcc. Over the course of a year, the $200 we spend on Visual C will more than pay for itself. GCC will be going into the crapper as soon as somebody produces a good fast compiler for linux.

Closed source isn't dying - it's doing very well. Don't be a hypocrite/bigot. There's room (and NEED) for both commercial and free software in this world.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[OSgod]

You write software for me on my dime -- and I OWN THE LICENSE.

That's in 100% of the contracts I write -- and it's fairly common. If I'm paying for your time I own your product.

Sell me a product on the other hand and you own it and I license it. This is a relationship I'm comfy with -- but it is completely different than my hiring you to write software.

If you open source your product I'll be happy to use it for my own purposes for free. And if I enhance it I'll be happy to pay someone to do it. And I admit I'll probably never release that source code back to the community -- I paid to enhance my business (not software) and I don't redistribute the software.

Just my .02

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Anonymous Coward]

For people who really love programming, their hobby IS their job.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Gaccm]

i don't know why i must state this on slashdot, but You Can Make Software Open Source AND Sell it! Ask RMS who initally sold emacs for $100. Look at Redhat or any linux distro compony. I'm not saying it works for all programs. The little proggie that is merely an enhanced version of cat would not benefit, but there are plenty of programs, and considering that your program is highly specialized it might have worked fine also. Basicly, the more mission critical the software, the easier it is to make incomse based on consulting and support.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Salamander]

Wow. Slashdot is pretty full of people with lots of ideals and no skills or experience, but you completely take the cake.

There are plenty of legitimate and highly stable ways to make money writing free software.

Bold claim. Got any proof? Got any numbers for how many people are actually doing it? How many programmers actually make a living doing open-source programming full time today? How about a year from now, if the economy doesn't pick up? How many total programmers are there in the world? This "phenomenon" you rant about, this wave that's going to overwhelm us all, was barely even statistical noise even at its peak, and that peak has passed.

Find some buddies who are also into Open Source and form a consulting group

Been there? Done that? No, didn't think so. Open source or closed, your zealotry would be fatal in business. Those few people who are making money off open source have survived by learning not to piss off the guys with the money with that kind of extremism.

There is absolutely NO need for ANY proprietary software in this world.

You might actually be right there. "Need" is a funny word. No, the world doesn't need proprietary software or copyright law. But they exist, and people - real people, not just big corps - benefit from them. You haven't provided any compelling argument that society would be better off without them. Heck, far better programmers and writers than you have tried to make such arguments, and they haven't succeeded either.

Those who argue otherwise do so only because they have a vested interest in proprietary venues and are afraid

That, my friend, is called argumentum ad hominem and it's frowned upon as a fallacy. I'm not just nit-picking either; logic and debate are essential skills in the business world, regardless of whether your source is open or closed. There are myriad reasons why people participate in the creation of open source. Lambasting them all as parasites or cowards is as absurd as characterizing all open-source programmers as thieves. There's a grain of truth in each case, but no more.

Choose your sides.

Even if I were the most ardent advocate of open source - and I've probably done more for open source than you ever will - I'm too much of a pragmatist to back the losing side in any fight. You'll find that such pragmatism is a common trait among real engineers.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[sharkey]

Look on the bright side: Free Food From the Sky!

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[madenosine]

Mmmm... I sure am going to enjoy eating that monkey!

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Anonymous Coward]

Sigh....more FUD....you people cant STFU even after you are proven wrong by all but one company

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Inataysia]

Same with compilers --- the open source crowd loves gcc. Hate to step on any toes but gcc is pretty sucky. Yes it is good for retargeting code, but the performance is terrible....

the OSS crowd loves gcc because part of the spirit of OSS is platform-independence. i'd like to see another compiler, free or otherwise, do better than gcc on the range of languages and architectures that gcc targets.

GCC will be going into the crapper as soon as somebody produces a good fast compiler for linux.

lcc
mocka
kylix ... sorry, but i don't see gcc going anywhere.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[elflord]

I'm not at all suggesting living outside the capitalist system. Writing software as a service rather than charging licensing fees makes it a labor market. Labor markets are a far purer form of capitalism than government-enabled monopolies (copyright, etc).

Software as a service is fine, but don't expect your clients to let you open-source it. Do you think GE wants you posting the specs to their latest and greatest medical equipment on the internet, for the benefit of their competitors ? Think again. In the service model, you're most likely going to be writing software that is strictly for use in-house, and either not available to customers, or available on an NDA basis.

As for copyright, it's a perfectly fine form of capitalism. Service vs licensing is not an either-or proposition. The different models have different costs and benefits, and both are useful in their own right. Copyright serves well if the work is to be shared among several customers (because it's a workable means for the cost of development to be shared by several parties with little money) and software-as-a-service works well if the work is for exclusive use of a corporate customer (ie the cost of development is paid for by one party who has a lot of money, and doesn't want to share)

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[epsalon]

Now this work took FOUR YEARS. So when it comes time to release it, we should just give it away and expect and there will 'magically' be money to pay the rent and food for all these people? Cmon already. Should they survive on happy thoughts and good wishes?

As you said, it's a high-end specialized product. You can do what Stephen King did with his online book. Require the payment in advance, and when you gathered, say, $20 Million release the software as open-source. It's a win-win situation.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Zog]

There is absolutely NO need for ANY proprietary software in this world.

I have a vested interest in proprietary software. It's how I pay for food and stuff.

I make proprietary software for people. They don't want their competition to have the advantage, so they have exclusive rights to the code.

They pay me. I eat.

'nuff said.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is platform independence important for a compiler though? It's marginally more relevant than choosing a compiler based on having a nicely formatted version string, but still. I'd hate to actually have to use gcc because it's got inefficient code generation and has poor standards compliance. As a developer, I'd rather have 20 compilers that each do one system well than 1 compiler that does 20 systems poorly.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[brianosaurus]

Let me guess. The fact that I don't know what a TSD is (or how to write one from an FSD, whatever that is) makes me a bad person?

Um, yeah. I worked at a Real Company, for several years doing programming on Real Programs.

I didn't always mix well with the management types. I didn't even know many of them, because knowing them didn't really make me any better at my job. But I think I was pretty good.

The thing is, not everyone is looking to make a zillion dollars (no, really! they're not!). Not everyone is trying to pad their resumes with lame crap in order to pull the wool over some manager's eyes and get a bigger salary.

Some people (get this!) actually LIKE programming. Some people actually LIKE developing cool projects (not products) and putting them out there and saying "hey. i think this is cool. what do you think?" Or "I made this because I needed it. Maybe someone else will find it useful."

Sure that attitude doesn't move you up the corporate ladder. That "well, it won't necessarily improve the bottom line this quarter, but people will think its really cool" frame of mine isn't always well-received in this economy.

Working on an Open Source project allows one the freedom to do what they want, while still building "marketable" programming skille.

Besides, if you're a manager, would you rather hire someone who is kissing your boss's ass and looking for a way to steal your job, or someone who will work hard and produce a quality, innovative product (so you'll look good in front of your boss)?

Some jobs don't need politics.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[kz45]

Talk about missing the point! I bet you're an MBA aren't you? What part of "we don't need ANY proprietary software" did you not understand. That's right. No proprietary software. As in: Proprietary software is going the way of the dinosaur. Deal with it

what is the difference between proprietary software and Open source software to a company? Nothing.

here are some figures:

prop software: $1000 + $2000 per year. support
OSS: $3000 per year

it's all the same to a company. Just money. The only people that care are the zealous programmers that would like to bring the ideals of a communist society, to the technology world.

The point is, smart programmers don't NEED the corporate "we" that you refer to a dozen times in your argument. That is the beauty of Open Source. You don't have to do everything yourself. Structure falls into place naturally. All you have to do is take what exists and extend it as people needs dictate. For that, those people WILL pay you if you offer a better total solution than proprietary competitors

Besides a stallman based software world, why should it matter what a company chooses. (isn't that called FREEDOM?). I know you probably don't understand this, but JUST BECAUSE A PIECE OF SOFTWARE IS OPEN SOURCED DOES NOT MAKE IT BETTER!

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Anonymous Coward]

> When we look for new programmers, beyond language proficiency, we look for the ability to write a quality TSD (from an FSD).

Are you testing me for a job offering or are you trying to explain things in a public bulletin board? If the ladder is the case, please be kind enough to explain acronyms that you use that most readers won't get.

Thank you.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Ogerman]

in other words, make your software so shitty and unreliable that people need to pay you so they can keep it functioning? And people bitch and moan about MSFT's subscription policies.... this is the same thing.

No, in other words, make your software as beautifully clean and high quality as possible, basing as much as you can on existing Open Source software and extending as needed. You would not believe how many people are paying out the wazoo to keep *proprietary* software functioning. I'm proposing to do a better job on both ends.

The last company I worked for, we produced a very high end, specialized application with a limited user base.. .... So when it comes time to release it, we should just give it away and expect and there will 'magically' be money..

I'm not proposing a solution to every situation. Nor am I talking about building specialized software from the ground up. In your case, however, it still doesn't mean that proprietary code is needed. One option for people (your customers) with specific needs is to form a sorta co-op group to develop the software they would need--in this case, movie effects software. Seeing as how you have a small user base, this is fully possible. It just requires planning and coordination. Why would your customers do this instead of buying proprietary software from whatever company you work for? Because it's cheaper for them if executed correctly. Nothing I'm advocating has anything to do with altruism or making programmers work for nothing. Yes, I fully agree that the Eazel people were a bunch of morons with no business model.

GCC will be going into the crapper as soon as somebody produces a good fast compiler for linux.

I agree that GCC needs work, but it's certainly not going away and I don't think it's quite as bad as you suggest. Qt takes nowhere near 3-1/2 hours to compile with gcc on my machine, and it's just a single-processor 1.4Ghz. Athlon. What matters ultimately, is the performance of the binaries and you nowhere mention this.

There's room (and NEED) for both commercial and free software in this world.

There is only need if people create the need--those people being customers who aren't aware of the possibility to get the software they need for less money by hiring either Open Source consultants or by organizing a sort of co-op. I'm not saying it'll happen tomorrow. But it very well could happen as more Open Source projects reach 'critical mass'

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Ogerman]

That's in 100% of the contracts I write -- and it's fairly common. If I'm paying for your time I own your product.

Maybe it's time for programmers to stop getting raped and refuse to write that in their contracts with clients. In reality, it's better for you too, because as I reuse code I wrote for you with other customers, I'll improve it and give you the improvements as well. It's not like there's no return on the investment. It just prevents wheels from being re-invented. As such, your cost goes down because I didn't have to start from scratch to write the software you needed.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Ogerman]

Software as a service is fine, but don't expect your clients to let you open-source it. Do you think GE wants you posting the specs to their latest and greatest medical equipment on the internet, for the benefit of their competitors ? Think again. In the service model, you're most likely going to be writing software that is strictly for use in-house, and either not available to customers, or available on an NDA basis.

That's a valid point. I'm not talking about in-house software carrying trade secrets. I'm talking about software that is normally licensed to many customers with nearly identical needs.

Say I'm going to extend an existing Open Source accounting program to meet a client's needs. Obviously, I'm not going to publicize customizations that apply only to their business. However, if the improvements could help other people who need accounting software, those will most definitely be re-released into the GPL codebase. The client may argue that this will help his/her competitors. This argument makes absolutely no sense whatsoever because: 1.) accounting software is not their core competency; it's an overhead cost that should be minimized 2.) their competitor will no doubt have different needs and still have to pay a consultant to do the same type of work, even if just to integrate the software.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Aapje]

Ok, so I pay you before I know if the software is any good or will even be produced. I'm getting confused here, why would I want this instead of buying an off the shelf solution?

Heck, would I buy a book like this? How would I know if it's any good? Stephen King has such a good reputation that he could barely pull it off (and he is probably the best known writer). How could other writers do this? I didn't know I wanted the book 'Java Performance Tuning' before I read a review. I wouldn't have bought it before it was written, cause that would be very risky. Plus, I buy the book when I have a problem, it should be available to me quickly. And given the choice between paying the author to create a new 'vaporware' book in a year and getting a free good-enough version now, what option are most people going to take? The weaker book, so the better one is never written. Your plan just doesn't make sense, it would lead to mediocrity and a lack of choice.

Your plan could be applied to regular products just as well, but history has proven that payment before production only works for services (geared to a specific situation). And people/companies are always trying to get away from them to regular products (barbers gave away to philishaves, performing artists gave away to LP's/CD's/videoclips, specialized applications gave away to spreadsheets, ERP systems, CRM systems, etc). The ideal situation is where the consumer has all the information to make a choice. He knows what he gets at what price and there are few risks. That is best achieved by having a number of products that are already available. A pre-paid service will always be a second choice, people/companies only go for it if there is no acceptable choice available.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[tarkin]

Ask RMS ? You must be kidding ?
I lisened to a talk of RMS at FOSDEM, and a question from an audience member was this one :

"How can I make money if I want to be an Independant Developer , making a product that is easy-to-use, stable and most of all FREE. Because of this the users wouldn't need much support at all ! How can I do this and still make money ?"

RMS answered that in terms to make money of that piece of software , the developer should take in mind that he would not be able to meet ALL his requirements for that piece of software. And while he didn't say it as such, it either meant "Go do that thing in one HUGE corporation that spends alotta money on R&D" or the other option would be : "Make sure your clients NEED support"

And that last option should NEVER be a valid option for a software developer
( maybe an option for marketing ? )

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Anonymous Coward]

Platform independence is even less important if you actually have standards-compliant compilers.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[totierne]

Any chance of giving a low down of what the next steps in small scale customizing open source software is?

My 2 cent: hosting simple html forms solutions, converting file formats, accessing spreadsheats over the network via html forms.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[sql*kitten]

Ask RMS who initally sold emacs for $100.

RMS gets all his bills paid by MIT's AI lab. He doesn't make his living from open source in any way, shape or form.

Look at Redhat or any linux distro compony.

How many of those are GAAP profitable? How many aren't 0wned by their VCs?

Basicly, the more mission critical the software, the easier it is to make incomse based on consulting and support.

About the closest anyone's come to this was Cygnus and their commercial support of GCC for various embedded platforms. But even they aren't independent any more, remember? Unless you count contractors who administer sendmail for a living, that doesn't count either.

The only way to make money producing software unless you are providing shrinkwrapped packages is by doing bespoke development. The only people who pay for bespoke development are the ones who can get a competitive advantage from it, and they aren't going to want it to be available to their rivals.

Now, don't get me wrong, open source works for a bunch of stuff, but it's all commodity stuff. You can make a living as a sysadmin on a wholly open source OS, of course, but I don't think you can writing open source software. (Alan Cox doesn't count until Red Hat are sustainably GAAP profitable).

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[egriebel]

"Getting raped"? What are you, a professional student? Sheesh, wake up and get back in the real world.

Wait, I got an idea, how about instead of getting $100/hr for your consulting, you get $30/hr and you can keep the damn code. Heh, principles are expensive, aren't they?

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[mrd98]

sounds like a great idea - I will get my $20 million off the company before I even produce a product, then once I have deleivered it to 1 customer I will make it open source, hence stopping all further revenue from this product. And wouldn't the company that had paid £20m be a bit peeved that toher people can now get it for free. I think you are living in the rose tinted world of open source.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly.

For years now everyone has been complaining that companies won't switch to linux on the desktop.

Why in the world should they?

The only reason these zealots can come up with is "well it's free".

Ok first these idealists always say it's about freedom not the free price. But the free price is all they can come up wityh for using linux on the desktop.

Second, well it's not free, it takes just as much if not more to support than windows.

Would i like to see linux on the desktop someday though?

Not really, i mean why? what's the point. 400 days uptime doesn't mean squat to people who shut off their workstation at the end of the day and go home.

Besides i hate to brake it to people but after win2k there's not that much crashing happening, sorry.

Sorry but gnome and kde office apps are more likely to taker a crapper than windows is.

Also X is freaking bloated. Not much better than win2k.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Anonymous Coward]

"The client may argue that this will help his/her competitors. This argument makes absolutely no sense whatsoever"

Well the clients arguement doesn't have to make sense.

They can just go find someone else.

Programmers are getting to be a dime a dozen.

If you're not going to do it the way they want it they will find someone else.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Anonymous Coward]

I think somebody took the cathedral and the bazaar a little bit to seriously... Guess what it's a fantasy that died in 2000 when the authors stock went from $250 a share to $2.50.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Anonymous Coward]

A unsurprisingly immature response to a personal attack. This site is so fucking petty.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget...

Alan Cox is one freaking guy!

Woah nellie! Call the press!

One guy makes living writing open source code!

It's a revolution!!!

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Ogerman]

here are some figures: prop software: $1000 + $2000 per year. support
OSS: $3000 per year it's all the same to a company. Just money. The only people that care are the zealous programmers that would like to bring the ideals of a communist society, to the technology world.

You couldn't possibly be more thick-skulled could you. You make up random numbers to make it look like you know what you're talking about and then claim that Open Source has something to do with communism--which it has absolutely none of whatsoever. Go crawl back in your hole.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Ogerman]

How many programmers actually make a living doing open-source programming full time today?

How many programmers actually try? Not many. I'm trying to change that. You're following the herd.

This "phenomenon" you rant about, this wave that's going to overwhelm us all, was barely even statistical noise even at its peak

Yes folks, that's right. All this "Open Source" stuff is just "statistical noise." Go delete your Linux/BSD partitions because it doesn't matter anymore as this poster has so brilliantly pointed out to us. And this comment gets modded up to 5?

Been there? Done that? No, didn't think so.

How about you, bud? You ever try it? No, didn't think so. Well shut your trap then because some of us have open minds and guts to try new things. It's called innovation. People who rant like you are the opposite.

You haven't provided any compelling argument that society would be better off without them. (proprietary software)

Oh, you mean like.. less re-inventing of the wheel? Are you that blind to think that the current proprietary software industry is beneficial to society?

That, my friend, is called argumentum ad hominem and it's frowned upon as a fallacy.

Is that so? Because you use the same technique all throughout your response. For readers who need a clue, argumentum ad hominem is when you attack the person making an argument rather than the argument itself. And I notice that not once in your opposing argument did you actually address what I'm proposing as reasonable or unreasonable. You just made blanket statements and got modded up become some idiots apparently thought your "pragmatist" views were more mature. If you want to stand on the sidelines, fine. But either keep your mouth shut or make an intelligent argument.

I've probably done more for open source than you ever will

Really? Who's the one that's dead set on having a day job doing proprietary software because all that fancy-smancy Open Source stuff doesn't put bread on the table? Eh?

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Salamander]

How many programmers actually try? Not many. I'm trying to change that.

I personally know about two dozen who tried. About half eventually ended up working on proprietary software. The other half are unemployed. How big a sample do you need before you'll face facts? I'm sure the people I know constitute a very small percentage of all those who tried, and that more examples could be found.

What are you doing to change anything, besides ranting here? Just about everyone I know who actually has a business isn't shy about putting the word out. You, by contrast, haven't even bothered putting a link to your project/company in your profile. What do you do, exactly, that's so good for open source? BTW, it's not ad hominem when one's interlocutor has made their character or identity relevant by trying to use it as the basis for their argument.

All this "Open Source" stuff is just "statistical noise."

Strawman. What I meant, and it was quite clear from the context, was that all this "making money from open source" was statistical noise.

Been there? Done that? No, didn't think so.

How about you, bud? You ever try it? No, didn't think so.

Then again, I'm not the one claiming to be doing that, so that's not relevant. I'll take your (lack of an) answer to my question as a no, and so I suspect would anyone else reading this exchange.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Ogerman]

I personally know about two dozen who tried. About half eventually ended up working on proprietary software. The other half are unemployed.

"Two dozen" doesn't tell me anything. What exactly did they try? If you're talking about people who wrote free software and then put a 'donations' box on their website, that doesn't count. Silly dotBomb attempts like making their own distro or trying to provide generic tech support also don't count.

Let me put it more bluntly. There are what are known as "Microsoft Solutions Providers" who go around setting up Windows, Office, SQL Server, etc. for small/medium sized companies. The idea is to provide a complete solution using MS products. Companies pay big bucks to have this work done for them *plus* the exorbitant MS client/server licensing fees. My idea is to do the same thing but with free OSS. At the same time, consultants can provide a *better* solution than the MS people because the software is flexible and can be modified/extended to suit needs. If the client pays less than they would have for proprietary software, there is no reason why they shouldn't go with this option, especially if the resulting setup makes their business more efficient.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Salamander]

What exactly did they try? If you're talking about people who wrote free software and then put a 'donations' box on their website, that doesn't count. Silly dotBomb attempts like making their own distro or trying to provide generic tech support also don't count.

Fallacy of Exclusion

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[elflord]

That's a valid point. I'm not talking about in-house software carrying trade secrets. I'm talking about software that is normally licensed to many customers with nearly identical needs.

With this type of software, the copyright model makes a lot of sense. It's cheaper to pay a copyright holder than it is to pay the salaries of the developers you'd need to write it.

However, if the improvements could help other people who need accounting software,

If a feature is useful to a lot of people, it will be implemented in the main software package. It's usually too expensive to pay developers to implement core functionality in a piece of software.

will most definitely be re-released into the GPL codebase.

But why should they pay you to develop something that should be a core feature of the application ? From their standpoint, the copyright model makes more sense. Features that are widely needed can be added to the software. You only need in-house developers to add fairly specific "once-off" hacks.

This argument makes absolutely no sense whatsoever

It's not the clients job to explain themselves to a free software zealot. They'll just hire someone else.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[curunir]

Let me guess. The fact that I don't know what a TSD is (or how to write one from an FSD, whatever that is) makes me a bad person?

No, not at all. However, it does make you less qualified for a job where the requirements include thorough documentation. Like it or not, being able to read a function spec (FSD) that comes from product planning/marketing people is a reality of most proprietary software environments. A quality engineer should be able to take a functional spec and write up a good technical spec (TSD). This is important to show that the finished code implements what product planning had intended. No value judgements here, just ability to adapt to the process that results from developing software in a regimented environment.

The thing is, not everyone is looking to make a zillion dollars (no, really! they're not!). Not everyone is trying to pad their resumes with lame crap in order to pull the wool over some manager's eyes and get a bigger salary.

I'm not trying to make a zillion dollars either. All I want is to make a living writing software. I really don't enjoy all the extra hassle that goes allong with coding software for a corporation, but I put up with it since I get to spend at least some of my time writing code. My only point was that if you want a job writing proprietary software in a corporate environment, there are skills that show you can adapt to that environment. If you don't have them, maybe you're better off working in a small development team that does things in a more laid back manner. No sleight against you, but the skills you lack are necessary in many environments.

Some people (get this!) actually LIKE programming. Some people actually LIKE developing cool projects (not products) and putting them out there and saying "hey. i think this is cool. what do you think?" Or "I made this because I needed it. Maybe someone else will find it useful."

I actually love programming. I work a real job during the day, and I spend a lot of time outside of work programming too (and when I actually finish something, I release it as open source). But when I program outside of work, I just program. I don't let the aspects of my job that I don't like touch my personal code. There is no project planning to be accountable to. There is no functional spec that tells me feature x needs to be implemented. If I get half way through programming and decide that my program doesn't need feature x for me to enjoy using it, I don't implement feature x. The nature of open source is that it doesn't have a specific customer in mind. Programming software to the needs of a specific customer changes the process of developing that software.

Some jobs don't need politics.

Don't confuse politics with process. The backstabbing and schmoozing are irrellevant here. What does apply here are the ability to interact with your co-workers as part of your job functions. Prior experience with that aspect of the job cannot be gained from open source work. And it *is* something employers look for.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[curunir]

Talk about missing the point! I bet you're an MBA aren't you? What part of "we don't need ANY proprietary software" did you not understand. That's right. No proprietary software. As in: Proprietary software is going the way of the dinosaur. Deal with it.

Nope...no MBA here, just some common sense. Perhaps you meant to say that commercial software is going the way of the dinosaur. In that case, it might be a half-way sentient argument. However, companies will always have code that they develop in-house and do not release to the public since there is no need to do so and there is a possibility that it could benefit their competition.

The point is, smart programmers don't NEED the corporate "we" that you refer to a dozen times in your argument.

The do if they want to gain any experience to put on a resume. Even consultants need a resume to show that they are capable of what they say they are capable of doing. From my experience, consultants do not get hired until they've had at least 5 years of software development experience. It may be the case that in your "pie in the sky" world, once proprietary software has been eradicated from this planet that a consultant can get hired right out of school, but until that time, they'll need to get some real experience under their belt before they can start enjoying writing open source for a living.

For that, those people WILL pay you if you offer a better total solution than proprietary competitors.

So why would anyone sign up with AOL these days? There are undoubtedly plenty of ISP's willing to give you net access for less that AOL charges. The reason is that AOL is a respected business with a proven track record. Consultants are hired the same way...based on not only the product that they can deliver, but the track record to proves that they can deliver.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Ogerman]

You think you're real smart by posting 'fallacy this, fallacy that' don't you. The question to you was whether these people you know (let me guess.. all from the same dotBomb startup?) had tried consulting-related Open Source business models. Judging by the fact that you didn't answer, it is my guess that what I "excluded" was what they in fact tried. And if so, I'm not surprised they failed miserably. If you believe that their example is proof that making money from Open Source doesn't work, then I'm afraid it is you that is making the logical fallacy.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Salamander]

The question to you was whether these people you know (let me guess.. all from the same dotBomb startup?)

Wrong. Some day you should try developing a theory to fit facts instead of making up "facts" that fit your pet theory.

had tried consulting-related Open Source business models. Judging by the fact that you didn't answer, it is my guess that what I "excluded" was what they in fact tried. And if so, I'm not surprised they failed miserably.

That is truly one of the most contorted statements I've seen in a long time. What you actually ended up saying is that you think my friends did try what you suggest, and you're not surprised that they failed. Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.

Some of the people I mentioned were involved in product-related endeavors, others were in consulting. Both groups have fared poorly, but of the two it's the consultants who've been hurt most. Don't believe me? Find any half dozen people who were out there a year ago trying to do what you suggest. Ask them whether they believe in your theories. The two who are still employed might refrain from slapping you upside the head, but I can't vouch for the other ten.

What you don't seem to realize is that when money gets tight expenditures on all forms of outsourcing - consultants, freelancers, custom development and support contracts - are the first to go. The service income that you posit as a substitute for product income dries up, leaving nothing for open-source developers. It's not a coincidence that open-source software rose to prominence during an economic boom, and has receded during the ensuing decline. That's reality for you, and it's right there for you to see if you'd just pull your head out of your ass and take a look.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[kz45]

You couldn't possibly be more thick-skulled could you. You make up random numbers to make it look like you know what you're talking about and then claim that Open Source has something to do with communism--which it has absolutely none of whatsoever. Go crawl back in your hole.

heh.

Since you obviously have no idea what communism is or how it pertains to the OSS community, I have pasted the definition below:

communism (taken from dictionary.com)

A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.

I rest my case.

PS. I admit I did pull those numbers out of my ass...... but it was to prove a point (that you seemed to have missed).

I expect to see a response like... "communism really isn't that bad...just not implemented correctly"

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Ogerman]

I'm not going to continue the nonsense back and forth, going-nowhere part of the argument. Lets cut to facts only.

when money gets tight expenditures on all forms of outsourcing - consultants, freelancers, custom development and support contracts - are the first to go. The service income that you posit as a substitute for product income dries up, leaving nothing for open-source developers. It's not a coincidence that open-source software rose to prominence during an economic boom, and has receded during the ensuing decline.

OK.. this is a sensible argument. I'm not sure why you didn't make it originally. I'm not sure I totally agree with part of it, so here goes.. You say that outsourcing is the first thing to get cut, and that's true. However, look for a moment only at firms that do not have an IT staff. They still need software. They still need someone to maintain their systems. If they can get the same software / service they need for cheaper, they will switch. In many cases, Open Source software already exists that meets the vast majority of a need and the only reason a proprietary package gets deployed instead is because 1.) they aren't aware of the free software or 2.) they are but have nobody with the knowledge required to install it.

For larger companies with an IT staff that doesn't want to outsource software consulting, there's no reason their IT staff can't include some in-house programmers that work on open projects. In fact, that's probably the biggest option right now. Develop it because you need it and the framework already exists. Give it away because it's too expensive to maintain yourself. As long as a company is saving money, it makes sense. Or, if the cost is too great, the company could actually *gasp* coordinate a software project with others in the industry via a consortium of some sorts. Spread the cost and still eliminate the middle-man (software company).

Point is, there are always new options.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Anonymous Coward]

I rest my case.

Judge: Has the jury reached its verdict?

Jury foreman: We have, your honor.

J: On the charge of believing that proof-by-dictionary is in any way conclusive, how do you find the defendant, kz45?

JF: Guilty, your honor.

J: On the charge of believing that a one-sentence dictionary definition is a substantive definition of a complex socio-economic philosophy, how do you find the defendant, kz45?

JF: Guilty, your honor.

J: On the charge of quoting a dictionary definition without providing any evidence of how it relates to Open Source and believing that this is proof that Open Source is a communistic philosophy, how do you find the defendant, kz45?

JF: Guilty, your honor.

J: On the charge of believing numbers pulled out of his ass prove his point in any way, shape, or form, how do you find the defendant, kz45?

JF: Guilty, your honor.

J: On the charge of red-baiting by accusations of communism without the sligtest substantial evidence, how do you find the defendant, kz45?

JF: Guilty, your honor.

J: On the charge of speaking about things about which he does not have the slightest clue, how do you find the defendant, kz45?

JF: Guilty, your honor.

J: On the charge of being a lying redbaiting useless illiterate troll, how do you find the defendant, kz45?

JF: Guilty, your honor.

J: On the charge of being too stupid to live, how do you find the defendant, kz45?

JF: Guilty, your honor.

J: Will the defendant, kz45, please rise?

*the whining, whimpering troll is dragged to his feet*

J: kz45, you have been found guilty on all charges. You are hereby sentenced to sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up until such time as the following conditions have been met:

You have taken and passed sufficient English classes to allow you to write at a level above that of the third grade.

You have learned the rudiments of logical discussion, and understand what constitutes proof of your claims.

You have researched communistic socioeconomic theories from sources other than Rush Limbaugh and CNN to a degree that you can actually discuss them intelligently rather than making unsupported bullshit declarations.

You stop lying.

You stop whining about having your illiterate unsupported trolls being moderated down.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[randombit]

GCC will be going into the crapper as soon as somebody produces a good fast compiler for linux.


Then go buy one from KAI or Intel, if it makes you happy.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[kz45]

Judge: Has the jury reached its verdict?

Jury foreman: We have, your honor.

J: On the charge of believing that proof-by-dictionary is in any way conclusive, how do you find the defendant, kz45?

JF: Guilty, your honor.

J: On the charge of believing that a one-sentence dictionary definition is a substantive definition of a complex socio-economic philosophy, how do you find the defendant, kz45?

JF: Guilty, your honor.

J: On the charge of quoting a dictionary definition without providing any evidence of how it relates to Open Source and believing that this is proof that Open Source is a communistic philosophy, how do you find the defendant, kz45?

JF: Guilty, your honor.

J: On the charge of believing numbers pulled out of his ass prove his point in any way, shape, or form, how do you find the defendant, kz45?

JF: Guilty, your honor.

J: On the charge of red-baiting by accusations of communism without the sligtest substantial evidence, how do you find the defendant, kz45?

JF: Guilty, your honor.

J: On the charge of speaking about things about which he does not have the slightest clue, how do you find the defendant, kz45?

JF: Guilty, your honor.

J: On the charge of being a lying redbaiting useless illiterate troll, how do you find the defendant, kz45?

JF: Guilty, your honor.

J: On the charge of being too stupid to live, how do you find the defendant, kz45?

JF: Guilty, your honor.

J: Will the defendant, kz45, please rise?

*the whining, whimpering troll is dragged to his feet*

J: kz45, you have been found guilty on all charges. You are hereby sentenced to sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up until such time as the following conditions have been met:

You have taken and passed sufficient English classes to allow you to write at a level above that of the third grade.

You have learned the rudiments of logical discussion, and understand what constitutes proof of your claims.

You have researched communistic socioeconomic theories from sources other than Rush Limbaugh and CNN to a degree that you can actually discuss them intelligently rather than making unsupported bullshit declarations.

You stop lying.

You stop whining about having your illiterate unsupported trolls being moderated down.

The truth is right in front of your face, and you can't even see it.

The fact that you can't see the parallels between communism, and the GPL/open source movement baffles me.

kids......

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Anonymous Coward]

The truth is right in front of your face, and you can't even see it.

The fact that you can't see the parallels between communism, and the GPL/open source movement baffles me.

So explain this obvious truth to this poor simple fool, oh enlightened one. Since it's so obvious, you shouldn't have any problem.

Or you wouldn't, if you weren't a lying cretin. However, since you are, the best you can do is make vague bullshit statements.

Let me give you a demonstration of supporting one's claims. I claim that you are a lying cretin. If your claims were true, you would have evidence to back them up. You lack such evidence. In addition, you have had it repeatedly explained to you that your claims are bullshit. You have been unable to answer these refutations of your claims. Therefore, as you can provide no support for your claims whereas refutation is easy, your claims are false. If you were making false statements accidentally, you would have stopped making these claims after the first time someone demonstrated clearly that they were false. Therefore, you're a flat-out bald faced scumfuck liar. Now, if you had the slightest degree of intelligence, you would be able to at least come up with more lies to support your orginal lying claims, and you would be able to do so in a style that approaches high-school level literacy. Since you cannot manage this, it is safe to claim that you're a cretin. Therefore, my claim that you're a lying cretin stands.

See how that works? It's not hard to people with anything approaching human intelligence. You, however, will have to work at it.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[kz45]

I thought the definition of communism was good enough, but it seems a moron like you needs further explaining, so here it is:

once again, recall the definition:

communism> :

A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.

Recall the OSS/Linux movement ideals:

1) Many programmers from all over the world cobble togethor the operating system as a whole. No one entity owns it all. ("for the good of all members")

2) The gnu effectively makes it so the software stamped with its license has no owner. (everyone who uses it is in a sense, equal). Is this starting to sound familiar yet?

Whether (in your mind) it's right or wrong, it really is the start of online communism.

Stallman (and many other expressed zealouts on slashdot), would love to see the world as a communist or a socialist state. Not only could they be able to work on OSS all day, But they wouldn't have to worry about silly things they are "slaves" to, such as: car,house,medical payments.

excerpt from: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/gpl-american-dream.h tml

I quickly discovered though, that in many cases, not all the players in the field of computer software were equal. By the time I entered the field, large companies like Microsoft tended to control much of the technology. And, that technology was available to me under licensing agreements that forbid me to study and learn from it. I was completely prohibited from viewing the program source code of the software.

Part of the philosphy of the GNU. To prevent anyone from becoming a higher "status" than another (IE. Have source code they do not want to give out), equality is forced.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, this is why trolls annoy me. There are people out there stupid enough to believe them.

I already addressed the stupidity of believing that a one-sentence general use dictionary definition adequately encapsulates a socioeconomic theory as complex as communism. Apparently cracking your tiny mind wide enough to listen is beyond your feeble facilites.

1) Many programmers from all over the world cobble togethor the operating system as a whole. No one entity owns it all. ("for the good of all members")

2) The gnu effectively makes it so the software stamped with its license has no owner. (everyone who uses it is in a sense, equal). Is this starting to sound familiar yet?

If you only have one point, you just need to say it once. Repeating it doesn't make it any more valid.

1. A gnu is similar to a mountain goat. If you haven't researched the topic well enough to use terms correctly, please refrain from commenting.

2. The GPL does not take away ownership; this claim is only made by Microsoft astroturfers, trolls, and the pitiful fools stupid enough to believe them. The original author retains copyright over his work, and can do with it as he likes. The GPL simply grants others access to his work, within restrictions. If the GPL actually did take away copyright, it could not be enforced.

3. The GPL could far more easily be describes as a capitalistic quid pro quo, in that the original author is granting access to his work in exchange for access to any modifications or additions.

Stallman (and many other expressed zealouts on slashdot), would love to see the world as a communist or a socialist state. Not only could they be able to work on OSS all day, But they wouldn't have to worry about silly things they are "slaves" to, such as: car,house,medical payments.

Stop lying.

Part of the philosphy of the GNU. To prevent anyone from becoming a higher "status" than another (IE. Have source code they do not want to give out), equality is forced.

Was that an experiment to find the tensile strength of argumentation? I think you've stretched that claim far enough to break it. Having closed source code is status? Hang on a sec, I need to reattach my ass. You just made me laugh it off with THAT absurd claim. Forcing equality? My ass. Anyone who redistributes GPL'd code has made a knowing decision to do so, and complaining about giving access to the source to their modifications is exactly the same as whining about having to pay for a cab ride. Sounds to me like you GPL-whiners are the "communists" around here, you keep complaining because you can't get your free ride out of GPL'd code.

Basically, you're still a lying cretin.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[kz45]

Was that an experiment to find the tensile strength of argumentation? I think you've stretched that claim far enough to break it. Having closed source code is status? Hang on a sec, I need to reattach my ass. You just made me laugh it off with THAT absurd claim. Forcing equality? My ass. Anyone who redistributes GPL'd code has made a knowing decision to do so, and complaining about giving access to the source to their modifications is exactly the same as whining about having to pay for a cab ride. Sounds to me like you GPL-whiners are the "communists" around here, you keep complaining because you can't get your free ride out of GPL'd code.

if 90% of the OSS community weren't so zealous about destroying proprietary code (including stallman), I might believe you.

Even the philosophy of gnu.org talks about how it is a "right" to receive source code. Kinda like software and music piracy.........

Birds of a feather........

If I really wanted to get my "free ride" out of gnu'd code, I would. After all, how would you know?

3. The GPL could far more easily be describes as a capitalistic quid pro quo, in that the original author is granting access to his work in exchange for access to any modifications or additions

Tell that to loki, and the many other companies that tried to make a living from Open Source.

Stop lying

Stop trying to fool yourself.

2. The GPL does not take away ownership; this claim is only made by Microsoft astroturfers, trolls, and the pitiful fools stupid enough to believe them. The original author retains copyright over his work, and can do with it as he likes. The GPL simply grants others access to his work, within restrictions. If the GPL actually did take away copyright, it could not be enforced

communism doesn't take away ownership either. It gives ownersip to all.

taken from the actual GNU public license page on gnu.org

For example, if you distribute copies of such a program, whether
gratis or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights that
you have. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the
source code. And you must show them these terms so they know their
rights.

Re:Open Source development *IS* a job

[Anonymous Coward]

if 90% of the OSS community weren't so zealous about destroying proprietary code (including stallman), I might believe you.

And there you go lying again.

Stop trying to fool yourself.

Uh, if I believed your lies, then I'd be fooling myself. After your history of posting nothing but unsupported unmitigated bullshit, you have zero credibility. As long as you keep making unsupported bullshit generalizations, expect me to continue pointing out that they're lies.

Even the philosophy of gnu.org talks about how it is a "right" to receive source code. Kinda like software and music piracy.........

Bullshit. The two have nothing in common. Have you even heard of rational thought? Making a philosophical and legal argument that the right to modify one's property requires the release of source code is nothing like performing the criminal act of copyright infringement, and to claim that the two are similar is nothing but slander.

Tell that to loki, and the many other companies that tried to make a living from Open Source.

Uh, dumbfuck? Loki sold closed-source games. I guess it's closed-source that doesn't work, hmmm?

In addition, since when did capitalism guarantee anyone a living? It's communism that does that, idiot.

Finally, I'd like to congratulate you on missing the point by such a wide margin that you're approaching it from behind.

communism doesn't take away ownership either. It gives ownersip to all.

Which the GPL does not do, you brainless twat.

The owner of the copyright is not bound by the GPL. The owner of the copyright can release his software with or without source under any license he likes. This has only been brought up, oh, twenty or thirty thousand times on Slashdot before. Idiot.

And, once more, you've demonstrated yourself to be a lying cretin.

just what we need

[zzzeek]

The often questionable quality of Open Source code can only take a nosedive if we start throwing CS-major lightweights at it....

Re:just what we need

[Jason Earl]

That sounds like what Prof. Tannebaum said about Linus Torvalds and Linux. Years later Minix is still a toy, and Linux is being championed by every large software house in the world minus Microsoft.

Free Software gives students a chance to look at, modify, and contibute to real-life software. And contributing doesn't take a degree or thousands of dollars worth of tools either, it just takes time.

What's more, having the graduate explain how his Apache module, or PostgreSQL extension, or whatever actually works seems like a much better way to interview a potential new hire than asking them riddles.

A suggestion I recall from a while back:

[evilpaul13]

Make a Network card driver for the kernel or improve an existing one. Apparently, if you submit a bad fix it isn't a total loss as that will be a catalyst to lots of people working on it where you screwed up.

If you want coding experience...

[wedg]

...in a group environment, with schedules, deadlines, and 'clients', then save a dying breed and help code on a MUD.

I've got something like 6 years of experience coding for a MUD, and it's taught me several things. Not the least of which is this:
1) Your clients (players) are rarely, if ever, unanimously happy with your project.
2) Every other coder will try and avoid working, right up until the deadline. Sometimes after.
3) 99% of all code is boring, monotonous code.
4) If you really want something done, do it yourself.

Re:If you want coding experience...

[Anonymous Coward]

MUD "coders" as they call them are lame and annoying; they lack true experience and, pardon my joke, simply wander around in the MUD. Their coding habits, even of the best of them, are amateurish and annoying..

Fuck off, newbie.

Re:If you want coding experience...

[fandelem]

MUD "coders" as they call them are lame and annoying; they lack true experience and, pardon my joke, simply wander around in the MUD. Their coding habits, even of the best of them, are amateurish and annoying..

Fuck off, newbie.

okay, just from the fact that you haven't backed
up anything you've said beyond just immature
bashing, shows that you hold no credibility in
what you have just said. why don't you try to
explain WHY YOU THINK that EVERYONE who codes on
muds are completely worthless and just a bunch of
newbies.

guess what? ever gone to medievia or realms of despair ..
or any other of the muds that have well over 300-500
players on at ANY given time, and tell the owners
that they are COMPLETE NEWBIES? guess what, 90%
of the MUDDING POPULATION are computer geeks.
do you think they would put up with "amateurish"
or "annoying" behaviours from coders?

you know, the one thing that pissed me off the
most about your comment is the fact that just
because a MUD isn't graphical like EQ (everquest)
or lacks the attention as some other games..
for the simple fact that there ARE a lot of
newbie coders on muds (yes, i will give you this)
it means that it is one of THE BEST places to
start out, mainly because you're taking something
you play (assuming that a mudder is wanting to
learn how to code) and also enhancing your knowledge
of programming in the process. believe it or not,
but when coding something you ENJOY, you tend
to want to learn MUCH MORE than if you're coding
something you are only doing 'just because it
will look good on a resume'

just because some muds are very disorganized
and are run by 'newbies' doesn't mean EVERY
mud is like that. i could point out many, MANY
sourceforge projects and other OPEN SOURCE projects
that are probably ran just as bad, or perhaps worse.

try coming back with something more intelligent
than, 'fuck off, newbie' next time.

-fand

Re:If you want coding experience...

[wedg]

If you believe that, try writing an LPC mudlib from scratch.

^_^

Re:If you want coding experience...

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, lay off the Coke. Its not that important.

Re:If you want coding experience...

[Anonymous Coward]

Amen.

Several of my friends started out with C working on muds. All of them are now raking in 80+k a year.

I think a certain ass here has a point though. Employers will just blow you off if you list (x) years on (y) mud, without cold hard statistics.

You need to detail what you've done. You need to detail how many players were in game on average. You need to do more than add the widely availible ANSI color snippet and call your game 'TOTALLY ORIGINAL d00d!'.

And even then, many employers will just brush it off.

M*'s are great for coding, management and PR experience.

But if you count on them alone to get you a job, you're going to be sadly disappointed.

Re:If you want coding experience...

[wedg]

So true. But it gives you the skills you need to really get work done on real projects - especially on internships. Frankly, most interns don't know shit, and get stuck deleting cursewords from comments, and things like "/* Drunk now, will finish later. */", but if you show them you know your serious shit, it doesn't really matter where you picked it up.

Personally, I like to say, "Over 6 years experience programming in a large-project coordinated group environment." and then if they ask I can explain that I administer an online multiuser game, where I personally wrote upwards of 50% of the code in the 120,000 line mudlib.

My advice

[inerte]

1) Start small. No kernel hacks yet, you can be more productive on smaller projetcs;
2) Abstract coding, that means try to learn/develop/help projects that are root of others. Like engines, classes, libraries. I know this somehow conflicts with number one but you must find the balance;
3) Do it right. Document, comment, test. No half steps please;
4) 'In-loco' development. Try to get a job in any company. Meet the managers to learn how to overcome this difficult part of our lives;
5) Share with other students. Recentely (er... 90 and above) developing an app has become more and more a team activity;
6) Block Slashdot's webpage access;
7) Write useful stuff, for you daily activites. Like a tool to perform any desirable action at the school network, to administer your books, to share knowledge better (Personally I would love somekind of P2P Knowledge-tree sharing system);

Well, that's it for now.

It all comes down to just plain trying :)

[AlXtreme]

This is a problem i was also in about a half year ago. I was looking around for projects and tried out a few where i could flex my code-muscles. Problem is that you need people who are just as motivated and are about of the same experience, only then can everyone learn from eachother.

Ohwell, after trying out a few i just joined a nice beginning project with a few friends, basically starting it out. You may exagerate the time that it costs to start a project, a good idea and your almost there. After coding on the project on and off for the lasts 3 months, i can say i've learned a great deal. Think up an open source project that doesn't fullfill your wishes and build apon it or start your own :)

Oh, and about the project, we're working on an msnclient that doesn't suck in GTK+ (sorry, but kmerlin and ccmsn just don't do what we want :) Everything has been coded from the ground up, we wanted to start clean. Chatting is being rouned up and work resonably, filetransfers are now being tested, after which we'll open up development and officialy make it public.

Bottom line: just try try try, and if that doesn't work start up one with a few friends. The reward in knowledge is far greater than the time that it costs to get involved!

might be useful to work on large projects then

[Trepidity]

There are some large OSS projects that actively encourage feedback and bugfixes and so on. Even contributing small bits to them or minor bug fixes would show some experience in being able to deal with isolated portions of enormous programs.

View from the "other side"

[gwernol]

As someone who has hired a large number of software engineers in the last decade, I'd like to give a little perspective on this issue.

It is a very difficult market for engineers. There are far fewer companies than there were 24 months ago and those that remain have cut hiring right back. When I can hire I get flooded with applications, many of which are from people with a lot of relevant experience. A newly minted graduate is going to come up short against someone who has been building commercial software for 5-10 years.

Getting on a successful open source project and showing you can make a real contribution is going to help you stand out from the crowd. Choose your project wisely - if you want to be an operting system engineer then getting on board with one of the core Linux projects will be much more impressive than building yet another Quake level editor, and vice versa. You'll need to have people on the project who can vouch for you and the contributions you have made. The higher the profile the project and reference it provides you the better: having Linus tell me what a great job you did on the kernel extensions you built will help you a lot.

Bear in mind that to really make an impact on a substantive project, whether its commercial or open source, is going to take a while. Spending a week adding a couple of printlns isn't going to cut it.

Be aware that a good commercial software engineer has more than just technical skills. You need to be able to work under pressure, to a deadline and in a team. Just being a great hacker isn't enough. Use your time to demonstrate that you have these skills in addition to your coding abilities. One of the disadvantages of an open source project is that many (not all) of them aren't run with the degree of close teamwork and tight deadlines that are the staple of commercial software development. And of course, the one's that have established teams working on them may be the hardest for a newbie programmer to get into.

Yes, its rather Catch-22, but it takes a while to build up the reputation that will carry you into the better companies, roles and projects.

Re:View from the "other side"

[bay43270]

One of the disadvantages of an open source project is that many (not all) of them aren't run with the degree of close teamwork and tight deadlines that are the staple of commercial software development. I'd like to stress this point further. Being a hacker isn't all you need in most programming jobs, but it is the most admired trait in open source developers. It's fairly rare to find an open source project that will teach an individual when it's appropriate to make compromises in the workplace. Open source projects rarely have the individual pressures or conflicting goals found in commercial projects. Because many (especially small) open source projects start as academic exercises and many are designed for use by other hackers, the programmers can more often choose the elegant solution. On top of these compromises are the social ones you eluded to... programmers in the workplace need to work closely with others. Many times, with people who aren't qualified for their jobs (Dilbert is real). Although open source projects teach a lot, they won't replace real experience. There is still a lot to be said for the guy who's already had the ambition beat out of him.

Re:View from the "other side"

[Ogerman]

Here, I shall edit your advice to remove the stupidity:

Be aware that a good free software engineer has more than just technical skills. You need to be able to work without pressure, to a soft deadline and in a team. Just being a great hacker is enough. Great hackers by definition have social skills. These skills will be demonstrated naturally in addition to your coding abilities. One of the advantages of an open source project is that many of them are run with a degree of close teamwork and tight deadlines that put commercial software development to shame.

That's right folks. Boycott jobs at proprietary software companies. You don't need them to earn a respectable living.

Income from Open Source means Consulting and Services.

Re:View from the "other side"

[Apostrophe Police]

And of course, the one's that have established teams working on them

ZAP!! You lose.

Re:View from the "other side"

[Anonymous Coward]

I just wanted to comment that I don't think the job market for CS grads is all that bad. Companies are definately more conservative for sure but at my local state universities, last year 95% of CS grads get a job within 6 months of graduation. In previous years it was 98-99%.

Most of the time even before graduation, you'll be pestered by all kinds of companies and head-hunters that want to set you up with something.

I'm only in my junior year and I still get spammed frequently about job opportunities. However, these are for "intro" or "junior" level positions -- the market for the "upper" level ones may well be much different, as what seems to be described by the original poster.

Hiring decisions..

[rufusdufus]

When making hiring decisions, I do not take anything on the resume seriously. I have found there is no relationship between quality of resume and quality of coder/employee. [However it usually must get through resume screeners who dont know anything about programming, so make it look sharp!]

Working on a large free-source project would probably be very good experience. However, working on your own can also push your boundaries. I suggest doing both. Best of all is to get a co-op or internship at a real software company.

In an interview I would ask you specific programming questions which should be simple and obvious for you. If you pass that, I will ask you more difficult obsure questions that will (hopefully) require you to think on your feet. Failure to pass this interview will not get you hired no matter how good your resume looks. If you pass with 'flying colors', you will be hired no matter how skimpy your experience.

Re:Hiring decisions..

[bolarnava]

So you interview everyone who applies for a job with you? I doubt it. There is obviously something in the resume that makes you say "Hey Im gonna interview his one" or "Nah this ones no good" As I have been told pleanty of times "Once you get the interview its a whole new ball game" Yeah sure Open source Development wont get you a job but it will give you more chance of getting the interview, and more experience so as to better answer those "programming quesions" asked in the interview.

Re:Hiring decisions..

[Garen]

I think you touch on a more important point that you don't mention specifically: the ability to verify whether or not someone is suited for the job.

For you, it seems you know the good questions to ask to be able to measure someones abilities in that context. There are very few people who can do that. For those that can't, they must rely on criteria listed in a resume such as a degree, work experience, etc.

And so accordingly I've also noticed that those who do not meet some filtering pre-conditions (degree X, Y years of work experience with technology Z) have the most difficult of times just trying to get into a situation where they can be "verified" by someone who has the ability to analyze such things beyond a superficial level.

What that means as an example in real world terms is that if your interviewer is from a part of the company like Human Resources, they typically have no ability whatsoever to make an accurate assessment.

Not Something to Put On the Resume

[KidSock]

The only way to become a good programmer is to write lots of programs so in this respect I suppose writing code for an OpenSource project is just as good as any. From a corporate job marketability perspective it's virtually useless however. Most employers will not know what OpenSource means and will probably think you're some kind of communist code hippie if you try to explain it to them. Best leave it off the resume unless you know the reader will appreciate it. Rather than procrastinate working on another worthless runlevel editor for Joe-Bobs-Great-But-Kinda-Slow-Desktop-Environment, you would be much wiser to make your skills available to a professor writing ulitmately useless code. Right now, students should be worried about grades and diplomas, certs, and boring stuff like that. It all comes down to peices of paper folks. Don't fool yourself into thinking your enthusiasm for writing Free code will help you.

Re:Not Something to Put On the Resume

[rw2]

"Most employers will not know what OpenSource means and will probably think you're some kind of communist code hippie if you try to explain it to them."

Yup. Look at this guy. I just hope he isn't a hiring manager!

Re:Not Something to Put On the Resume

[BitwizeGHC]

That guy is what we call a "troll". In reality, I bet he's probably better as a boss than the hoary-bearded middle manager who spent his college years in an internship writing COBOL (and liked it!) and asks things like "Linux? Perl? What are those things? Are they anything like Visual Basic?"

Re:Not Something to Put On the Resume

[Anonymous Coward]

He wrote perfectly reasonable post.
Face it : insisting that Unix is the end of all progress is not very smart ...

Re:Not Something to Put On the Resume

[Anonymous Coward]

Most employers will not know what OpenSource means and will probably think you're some kind of communist code hippie if you try to explain it to them.

You don't put "Open Source" on the resume, you put the project on the resume. e.g. "I upgraded a process scheduler to make the OS faster" not "I hacked GNU/Linux because it is Free Software and Richard Stallman is both my Comrade and my God."

The reason he should look into Open Source isn't because it has some political advantage that an interviewre will understand. The reason is because working on an Open Source project, will naturally&obviously get you working with someone else's code. And working on existing code is the the #1 fastest way to learn stuff.

what?

[Trepidity]

You list a million things you do voluntarily as evidence that you're busier than most people with a 40-hour-a-week job. What makes you think these people don't have things they want to do voluntarily as well? Sports, running, beer, piano lessons, activities, etc. are not limited to college students.

Tech experience is not what an employer needs

[RobotSlave]

You're going to learn 95% of your duties on the job anyway. Apart from good grades, employers are looking for signs that a prospective employee can work well with others.

Part-time work as a waiter is probably more valuable than open-source development credit. Even better would be vounteer work at a homeless shelter, rape-crisis hotline, after-school mentoring program, or similar social work.

While I'm sure there are still a few employers out there looking to exploit a fresh college grad with a completely technocentric mindset, most have learned that it pays to choose a well-rounded individual instead.

how long, then?

[Aurorya]

I was hoping someone would tell me something like this. How many hours a week does a 'typical' (if one could find one) computer employee work? I'm a bit naive, I just know I like to program!

Sometimes it's hard to decide what to do and not do with my time, and it seems like the few things I sign up for right away just eat up my time and so I decide not to take on any more activities or start any new projects until 'the schedule clears up' ...at the end of the term! I'm really looking forward to reading the replies to this article once it settles down a bit...

Re:how long, then?

[Anonymous Coward]

I usually work about 45 hours a week. Hectic times call for 60-70 hours a week. Slow times still require 40 hours, but these are flexed, so I can usually work a little longer on Monday-Wednesday and take half days off on Thursday and Friday.

Re:how long, then?

[ComputerSlicer23]

Ummm, this is going to turn thread for bragging rights if this is done wrong. So here it is: Of the people I know, most of them spend 40-70 hours a week working. Lots of the people I know are programmers so that might be a bit high.

When there are problems I have worked more then 90 hours in a single week. I have worked more then 40 hours in a single sitting (I left to eat and shower and came back w/ no sleep). But I work at a smaller shop that has just 4 technical people, and I happen to have some rare skills so if something breaks that I know about I get to stay.

Some guys I know work a standard 40 hours and that is it. But that is rarer and rarer. Working at a larger company that is generally the corporate culture. Unless of course the company has an important project. 40 is normally the minimum a person works, not the maximum at most of the places I have ever been.

In my experience there is no average really. I don't work in Silicon Valley, I work in the midwest and most of the people put in 45-50 until there is a serious problem, then they put in as many as it takes. I put in 30 hours during a week on I was on vacation because they had problems at work and I was in town. I put in 70 hours one week I took two days off. I use to work every weekend. Just depends on where you work and the culture of the place. We work more because we can't afford more programmers and we like our jobs so we feel dedicated to keeping the place afloat.

Re:how long, then?

[Xerithane]

I'm a consultant, which after you get a few years of experience under your belt I would recommend doing if you want to have a life outside of work.

You make the same amount as your salaried equivalents.

You make more if you go over 40 hours.

You get stuck with no sick time/medical (usually, my company is different)

The reason why I stick with being a consultant is because it gives me enough time outside of the office to.. work. :) I put in probably another 6-8 hours after work writing code for either the company I'm trying to start or for a project I volunteer on. And, I still get out. It's quite nice to code outdoors, sit on a laptop at a pub or coffee shop (some up here even have 802.11 access)

The industry average goes from 40-60 hours a week though, more in crunch time. Most I have ever pulled in one week was 117 hours, and that is actually what got me into consulting. Best advice I can give you, tell them to stick stock up their ass you'll take a bigger paycheck and never sleep at work.

Re:how long, then?

[Anonymous Coward]

You stupid shit! You have no concept of how the world works after school do you?

You are busier than a working person ... pshaw.

Re:how long, then?

[protogeek]

Hardly typical, but I work 40 hours a week. Period. That includes a paid lunch break. There is no overtime. If an emergency requires me to put in extra hours, I take the equivalent time off later in the week. This is standard procedure at the tiny little company I work at.

I used to do the 50-60-70 hour thing, for the same money I'm making now plus a whole lot more grief.

It's not easy to find a computer job with sane hours and bosses who grasp that you have a life outside of the office, but it is possible. Ultimately, you will work as many hours as you are willing to let "them" make you work

Re:how long, then?

[slymole]

I put in 40-60 hrs/week, but that includes a lot of things.. Let me explain:

At the moment, I'm working fulltime (employed, not interning) at a non CS/CE university engineering lab, participating in joint software development for EU-sponsored projects, doing some server maintenance, security admin work, following industry news and learning the ropes. Having actually majored in maths, I don't possess a degree in CS but have been enamored with the subject since the early 80's, though I started out late doing meaningful programming work (did solo jaunts into the weird & wonderful world of Turbo Pascal in the 80's; don't think they count :P).

The lab atmosphere is liberal, bandwidth is readily available and the development team is geographically dispersed. Plus, we're always trying out new stuff, remodelling our programming discipline (using XP techniques, Open Source API's & tools, Java etc.), dabble in project coordination and try to maintain a competitive advantage -although strictly non-profit- accumulating knowhow about EU project workings and IT technologies. As you can imagine, not only we are more enthusiastic than the average salaried coder, but we usually put in more hours trying to keep up with all facets of our job description. Granted, it's also personal ambition that drives us (having started out late, I have a lot of trains to catch!), but I don't think I could maintain the same energetic approach working 9-5 for a company, coding payroll (no offense to payroll coders, it takes nerves of steel!), and wouldn't even be able to try a fraction of the stuff I do here. But that's the kind of tradeoff I'll make one day, because the marketplace offers the only true badge of distinction in this profession (I never set out to remain in academia, not in my country, anyway); and because I want to be able to start my own company someday, and apply these principles against the cold realism of free enterprise.

For me it's all about people, so I'm cramming on tech now to be able to focus on them later: the family I'll start (perchance!), the friends I hope to keep, and my team at work, which I always want to be able to see as companions in a grand adventure.

..And myself.. Maybe then I'll get some time off to do that trekking to the Amazon Basin and Kilimanjaro! ;PP

Working F2F also an issue

[cherry2000]

If there's anything people underestimate in software projects it's face2face communication between software developers. It's all fine and nice to send off an email when someone's made a bad checkin, but when your coworker is sitting right beside you, it's pretty tacky.

I found people who can communicate fine over IRC or email are often completely hopeless at expressing even the simplest of messages in person.

For this, you need real-world experience.

Re:Working F2F also an issue

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks, me and the other guys who aren't being hired because we lack experience will keep that in mind. I guess we'll have to get jobs at a fast food restaurant because we'll never get experience until we're given a chance...

Fuck school and its lies. This is NOT what they told me would happen when I graduate.

Re:Working F2F also an issue

[cherry2000]

Volunteer

I know, it sounds crazy, but it works. It shows you're keen, and willing to make a personal investment to get ahead. Many important people in companies got there by first volunteering. It's a little known secret, now you know.

Re:Working F2F also an issue

[Anonymous Coward]

Depends. It can also say, "My time isn't worth anything," to an employer. That's how volunteers were treated at my old job. Interns/Co-ops through a school program were a different story. YMMV.

HR depts won't care

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have NO work (i.e. paying) experience, the human resources department won't care about any Open Source experience. And even if you do have some work experience, HR won't really count Open Source projects as work experience.

Sure you might have some hope for a small tech savvy company, but any large company is controlled by the HR drones and the Open Source projects mean shit to them.

Get used to saying "Want fries with that?".

How bleak is the job market??

[tutal]

I'm a soon-to-be CS grad. Working at a bank for an intership. Just wondering how bleak is the job market? I've been told for us entry level (read cheap) workers there is still quite a job market. Thing is I'm starting to believe that there aren't all that many jobs available as I have been looking for job leads without much success (note my job search has been primarily focused on the midwest ie Chicago area). Any thoughts from seasoned professonals or other soon to be grads?

Re:How bleak is the job market??

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually from what I hear the market isn't too bad in some areas. Banks for example ;). Your experience with any kind of financial institution should help you get a foot in the door (although many banks are looking for UNIX or QNX people, so those wouldn't hurt either if you don't have them already). Investment firms pay pretty well for financial types too. Should be a couple of those out your way.

Re:How bleak is the job market??

[Anonymous Coward]

That depends. Are you here on a student visa? If so, you can get it converted into an H1B visa and you won't have a problem getting a job. Where I work we've had three openings for ASP and Perl programmers recently and filled them all with H1B visa holders (one straight out of college) since there are no "qualified" programmers in the Atlanta area.

Whatever

[FallLine]

Firstly, as much as I dislike MS, I hardly see how you can blame MS for this mentality (as you see it).

Secondly, very few universities are indebted to MS. Try backing it up with some facts. I'm certain you'll find that any money MS gives them, in any reasonably arguable form (whether that's free/reduced licensing or what have you), is much less than 1% on average.

Thirdly, you are assuming that anything that is not programming for money == "Open Source." Open source is just one sort of "free" ideology and its not an ideology that everyone happens to agree with. For instance, someone may choose to develop code for a non-profit and/or at a reduced salary since they believe that open source is largely a waste of time. i.e., it's not "all" about the money.

Lastly, the attitude that money is unimportant is generally afforded to the few that have the luxary of not working. Try this when you get out of college and keep it up when you're trying to raise a family, just don't complain to others that it's not fair that you're not making enough money to lead a comfortable life.

Re:Whatever

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree... just because some CS students don't get off on "Open Source" work dosn't make everyone the M$ sell outs...

I personally HATE linux... and im far from a fan of MS...

Re:Whatever

[Anonymous Coward]

Firstly, as much as I dislike MS, I hardly see how you can blame MS for this mentality (as you see it).

Heres a quick history lesson for you. Before Microsoft sold MBASIC to MITS (For the Altair 8800), almost every single peice of code ever written was open in one way or another* Paul Allen & Bill Gates where the first people to attempt to sell software as a commodity item, and effectivly cultivated the Closed Source mentality as the de-facto standard. Which makes Bill Gates and Paul Allen very clever business men, admitedly

* One arguable exception to this is MULTICS, and IBM. However even then, the application code was tied to the purchase of specific hardware, and not for general sale as MBASIC was.

Re:Whatever

[FallLine]

Firstly, the original author was referring to the money mentality, not just the growth and dominance of "non-open" software which is quite a different argument indeed.

Secondly, before Bill G. came along, software was really NOT motivated by the ideas that open source espouses today (and likes to claim were espoused at that time). Quite the contrary, most of it was developed by companies for profit to sell or bundle with their own machines. It was about money from the start. The reason it changed from relatively unrestrictive / complimentary / free is because the nature of the industry changed, not because of a real change in mindset. These companies didn't sell the software or protect it as it is today because they simply saw software as a means to sell hardware. In other words, the entire notion of developing software for its own sake really did NOT exist at that time. The nature of the industry allowed for them to do this, or rather, it was more economical to not worry about protecting their intellectual property when the nature of the industry has its own built in protections and when the software was itself relatively trivial.

The point is that you can no more blame (or credit) Bill Gates for this shift than you can for the Moon rising. It was inevitable. As computers became more and more common and accessible and programs became less and less trivial the method for creating, distributing, and protecting the software HAD to change. Bill Gates just had enough wit about him to catch the wave before most others did [My dislike for Bill Gates and Microsoft is for entirely different reasons.]

Virginia Tech CS student... bitching

[jobowyer]

I have to agree with this article. I'm a three year student at Virginia Tech majoring in Computer Science, and even though I've tell everyone I've take a break due to "finicial" reasons, it's really because the curriculum isn't taking me anywhere. Pretty much all the teach is calculus and C++, and every computer related job in my area (a fairly rural one)has asked for experience in everything EXCEPT calculus and C++. More frequent questions are "How is your database experience?" and "What is your web experience?". Maybe in a large city, being a strict programmer will get you somewhere, but in a rural/suburban area, C++ and intense math are about as useful as underwater basketweaving.

Re:Virginia Tech CS student... bitching

[Anonymous Coward]

Good advice in your case:

If you're in the junior or senior year of your education, you've likely learned as much as is necessary to get you up to speed on the important concepts: Data Structures, algorithms, and programming language basics. Everything else is cream. Cream that you don't need.

Of course, if you don't have at least those 3 things down pat, you're better off staying for a little while longer.

If you do understand those things and can write a linked list in your sleep and can write traversal algorithms both iteratively and recursively, then enroll yourself at the local community college. Take a few VB classes and take a SQL class. Java may also be good to take, and considering your C++ background, it should be pretty easy to pick up.

Then use the community college's job placement program to get your foot in the door. From there you should be able to branch out and fill the role you foresee for yourself.

Re:Virginia Tech CS student... bitching

[gte910h]

I wouldn't listen to this and get disheartended. I go to the other Tech...(Georgia Tech)...and I see jobs in all the major cities for many different skills, even C++...:).

Skills of all sort are still needed, but companies can't afford the worthless jackoffs they hired so many of in the dot-com boom.

I would try for unpaid internships before I would go for open source. I would have to say that 80% of being sucessful at work is more about motivation and drive than actual practice in the discipline. Try talking a company into letting you work 20 hours a week for a couple months, being basically the monkey boy on project. You will work with a team, people outside of an academic mindset, and even a real code base. But you have to act like a real employee, actively seeking out tasks and being the epitome of professionalism.

Then after that internship is done, you will have work experience that shows you and the rest of the world how much you want to work in this field. If you value open source, try for an open source company, but I wouldn't limit myself to that.

Re:Virginia Tech CS student... bitching

[patoco12]

Calculus is taught to CS students to give them Mathematical "Maturity". It is worth it to learn your math. Someday, all software engineers may have to prove that their code works. How? Through math.

Re:Virginia Tech CS student... bitching

[iPaul]

As much as it pains me to say this, no employer has ever asked for a proof of a piece of code. All they care about are test. Did the code test okay? Does it work? They never ask "Is there some fundamental flaw in this algorithm that will cause it to fail if there exists a particular interleaving of instructions on a multi-processor system?" Unfortunately unless you do games, graphics, or scientific software coding for money at most companies is a math-free environment.

Re:Virginia Tech CS student... bitching

[patoco12]

As much as it pains me to say this, no employer has ever asked for a proof of a piece of code. All they care about are test. Did the code test okay? Does it work?
I agree. This is the case everywhere (except for critical government projects). But what about in ten or twenty years? If formal methods technology becomes affordable to apply, then Software Engineers who can't understand the formalism will be in trouble.

Re:Virginia Tech CS student... bitching

[BitwizeGHC]

I've started taking things like history, lit, and Japanese to pad my schedule because this bassackwards school ran out of good CS stuff to teach me. (And most of it I learned from the school I transferred out of, Stevens, anyway.) These things are academically valuable.

When HR sees your resume with your BS on it, even if it's from Podunk U, it means something. It means you have a diverse background, and are capable of inductive as well as deductive reasoning. These skills are important, especially in CS, if you want to ascend beyond code monkey status and evolve into a higher lifeform. :)

Re:Virginia Tech CS student... bitching

[Meech]

Calculus is probably one of the most important things that a Computer Science major can take, but no one takes calculus so they can get a job. People take calculus to understand why things work. How can you think about taking a graphics class without understanding what vectors are and what it means to normalize them? It would be really hard. How about Numerical Analysis? These are all based on Calculus.

Now, as a computer science major in your third year, you should be able to pick up a book, spend a couple of weeks and get to know a new language. CS departments teach fundamentals, not the latest and greatest tools. This is what makes CS degrees stand out, the ability to teach yourself the new tools from the theory you hated so much in college.

Re:Virginia Tech CS student... bitching

[Anonymous Coward]

In 10 or 20 years your math brain will have shriveled to the size of a cheese doodle, so don't sweat it.

Re:Virginia Tech CS student... bitching

[Anonymous Coward]

uhm, sorry but you sound like an idiot. i'd never hire you.

Re:Virginia Tech CS student... bitching

[GigsVT]

Drop out. I dropped out of VT CS and it was the best move I ever made.

The professors are so out of touch (with a very few exceptions. Barnette, you rock.), they might as well be teaching ENIAC programming. Calculus is totally useless to real world CS, in all but a very few specific applications.

Re:Virginia Tech CS student... bitching

[Anonymous Coward]

"Pretty much all the teach is calculus and C++, "

You do understand the point of a college degree is to show mastery of a wide variety of topics?

I mean, learning to program? Great. Fine. I can teach a monkey to program.

But it takes dedication to finish a 4-year degree. If you take calculus and C++ it shows you have analytical skills.

The fact that you quit because you don't *like* certain courses will speak volumes to the interviewer on your first job.

Because you realize you first job will suck, right? And it will have long hours. And you have to stick it out. The losers quit. The winners stick it out and make something of themselves.

Are you a winner or a quitter? make your parents proud. Go back and finish your CS degree.

Its beautiful around VaTech, revel in your youth.

I'm not flaming you, I'm really telling you how it is.

Re:Virginia Tech CS student... bitching

[Anonymous Coward]

"Maybe in a large city, being a strict programmer will get you somewhere, but in a rural/suburban area"

Ladies and gentlemen, I give exhibit "A", the Lazy Person (tm).

This person at VT lives 60-90 minutes from Washington DC, one of the richest IT areas in the country.

And he doesn't think he'll use it outside the big city.

Son, if you take a grayhound, or an amtrak, you can get to DC in just a few minutes (son, I know there's an Amtrak station right in town). Both greyhound and amtrak have web sites. Probably the programmers for those websites went to "the big city".

So son, what's your excuse now?

Sounds to me like Calculus and C++ are really hard and you're trying to justify your own failure.

Just say "Its too hard for me, and I'm looking to be a low-level grunt programmer my whole life. Maybe in PERL".

Accomplish something now. You'll thank yourself later.

Re:Virginia Tech CS student... bitching

[Phragmen-Lindelof]

One of my students earned a Math degree last May, accepted a job as an "actuary" job in KC with some coding required, convinced the company to change his job so he studies (and will eventually program) fuzzy logic, and now the company is looking for a new "actuary."

Re:Virginia Tech CS student... bitching

[elflord]

Maybe in a large city, being a strict programmer will get you somewhere, but in a rural/suburban area, C++ and intense math are about as useful as underwater basketweaving.

I hope they teach you more than "C++". Schools are not supposed to be C++ trade schools. A good understanding of concepts related to C++ goes a long way. If you want to write perl and design webpages, it should be a piece of cake.

As for calc and C++ being useless, that's laughable in the extreme. Computer graphics ? Need math. Numerical programming ? Need math. Financial applications ? You'll also need some math. If you want to be anything besides a script monkey, you're going to need to understand advanced programming concepts, and be mathematically literate.

Re:Virginia Tech CS student... bitching

[Anonymous Coward]

The best jobs require a BS degree.

When you're 21, a coding job making $40K seems really excellent. But when you're 40, are you going to be satisfied coding, the new grads can code rings around your ass, and you need to move up to do better.

Most of those high-level CS jobs will require a BS minimum, plus about 20 years of experience. And don't let anybody kid you say "a degree doesn't matter".

It *always* matters.

You sound like a guy without a degree trying to reduce the competition.

Re:Virginia Tech CS student... bitching

[Krapangor]

You are thaught calculus because it makes you a superior lifeform.

Re:Virginia Tech CS student... bitching

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, reading the original poster's comment, it's clear that he's not interested in a CS degree. He wants what a community college can provide, a quick and dirty hands-on education with the latest technologies. He obviously isn't interested in the esoterics of CS, and he doesn't seem to have ambitions beyond his rural home. A community college AA degree and VB experience is enough to get you in the door of your local gov't office or local business. Once in, it's simply a matter of gaining experience before moving up into a management position.

As much as we'd like to think it is, a BSCS isn't for everyone.

Re:Virginia Tech CS student... bitching

[jobowyer]

I'm actually quite good in math. I got my first B in a math class my last year at Tech (it was in Differiental Equations, I think), and I'm quite good at C++. I am also fluent in PHP, scripting, and have two webpages under my belt, which I built completely and totally on my own.
It's not that I lack the skills, it's that the ones I use, I LEARNED. And I know college is suppose to stimulate your mind so you continue to learn, but when I'm paying 10,000 dollars a year, I expect a certain amount force fed to me.
Just to let you guys know, when I was going there, they had 2 OR 3 Unix classes. An early one, that was the "We're going to teach you all the switches for every terminal command" and the "You're going to code C++... just in Linux this time" And NO database classes. Makes a lot of sense seeing that a HUGE number of businesses using Unix servers combined with databases to ensure their day to day operations...

Re:Virginia Tech CS student... bitching

[Anonymous Coward]

A University is not a trade school. Stop trying to treat it like one. Learn critical thinking. Learn analysis. Learn how to learn.

When I was in school, they taught programming using Fortran, OS design using MVS, sorting theory, and numerical analysis.

It turns out that I've never used Fortran anywhere, I don't design OS's, Who the @#$@# writes sorts? And numerical analysis? Are you joking?

And yet, the courses that were least useful taught me a different way to think.

If I teach you Java and Oracle today, what are you going to do tomorrow when the world is Foobar and Indexco? Technologies change, but learning is always in style.

I wouldn't base a career on being a really good Java coder. You'll end up working in a hospital at a "senior programmer" your entire life working for some overweight CPA earning $45,000 and 2 weeks of vacation. Great. Congrats.

And the guys with the degrees will have all the really cool jobs changing the world. That's the way it work.

...or here if DNS doesn't seem to work

[Anonymous Coward]

http://unmaintained.sourceforge.net/

Employers don't care about your ability to code

[iPaul]

Unfortunately employers don't care that you can code. Without some test that can predict your success in their company, they look for reasonable proxies:

• 1) You worked summers and on/off campus. You can show up when you're expected to and you can be relied on.
• 2)

Re:Employers don't care about your ability to code

[GigsVT]

3) You can finish a post on Slashdot without accidentally hitting submit halfway through. :)

Mozilla and Netscape

[roca]

As far as I can tell, most of the people who have made significant contributions to Mozilla, who weren't already a Netscape employee, whose contributions were high quality and who appeared to be a reasonable person has eventually at least been offered a job interview at Netscape, and many of those people are now working there. (It's one big reason why Mozilla doesn't have as many "non-Netscape" contributors as you might expect.)

If you think about it, it's a no-brainer from Netscape's point of view. They get a chance to hire people who are pretty much known quantities, who already know most of the codebase they'll be working with, and who for whatever reason are interested and motivated to work on Mozilla.

Things might change if Mozilla gets flooded with "wannajob" people of course... hasn't happened yet.

Re:Mozilla and Netscape

[VAXman]

Um, a job at Netscape sounds more like a prison sentence than any sort of interesting work. Why would anybody want to work there? I sure hope there's better examples of people jumping from open source projects to real companies.

Yes, I would accept it as job experience.

[Genus Marmota]

I'be been in the coding pits for 25 years & have read a lot of resumes and done a lot of interviewing. I can unequivocally say that I would consider open-source project experience at least as valid as that gained in other projects done as an employee. I would value it using the same criteria: project size, duration, complexity, platform, what parts the individual had been responsible for, how successful the result, etc.

You could legitimately argue that open source experience is worth more. IMHO many of the biggest challenges in large-scale software engineering are social. If someone can succeed in the less-structured environment of an open source project, where more depends on inidividual initiative, dilligence and respect for your (unpaid) colleagues, it's an excellent indicator of qualities that are desirable in a "typical" environment but are not guaranteed merely by having performed acceptably in previous jobs.

I would suggest ...

[gewalkeriq]

If I was trying to help a college student
get a real job. I would suggest ...

Get some real coding experience, preferably paid, but volunteer if needed. People pay more attention to paid experience. Nothing wrong with open source for experience (its just another form of volunteer work), biggest problem compared to other vol. work suggested below is that it does not have a local presence, but it tends to use more hot skills than some of the local work.

Call local software companies and and if you can have any fixed-bid job that can be done off-site, and do a good job on them, including being done on time.

Volunteer some programming work for the church, or the local youth center, or whatever you prefer -- just make sure it's real programming experience. Do a good job, and have that person vouch for your work. Some volunteer organizations are run by people with lots of solid business contacts.

Join some local programming user-groups to match your interests. There is likely to be Linux, Windows, Java, C, Delphi, etc. groups in your area. Volunteer to help, make presentations, etc. Make contacts with these people.

More generally ...

Be flexible, if the job involves knocking off some VB screens, do it well. The boss remembers that you did a good job, more than he remembers you did a good job with some VB screens.

Learn more and work harder and faster than the next guy. Listen more than you talk.

Be friendly. Brush you teeth. Use mouthwash if necessary. Take regular showers. Wear clean clothes without holes.

Use common sense.

Re:I would suggest ...

[MrZaius]

I'm afraid I don't understand one thing about your post.

If you wear clothes without holes and take time out for showers, doesn't that make it appear as though you spend more than 20 minutes a day away from your pc to those who don't keep shower-boxen?

Now, I don't mean to be trolling. I'm asking, just to what extent does one's interest/dedication to what he's working on outside of work/class mean to an interviewer/hirer?

Getting *NIX experience will greatly help you.

[Anonymous Coward]

FWIW, I did a test a couple of weeks ago on all the major job websites (dice.com, monster.com, yahoo, msn, and a couple others).

I was curious as to the number of jobs out there for Windows versus UNIX/Linux. So I did a search in the U.S. for the term "windows", another search for "unix" and a third one for "linux".

My results surprised me, but they were consistent across all the websites. The number of UNIX jobs available were consistently greater than the number of Windows jobs out there. Sometimes it was close, sometimes it wasn't. But UNIX always won. And the number of Linux jobs out there was about 20% of what was available for Windows.

I was surprised, but you can check the results for yourself. Note also that this is not the number of current jobs already filled; just the ones currently being offered.

So if you don't have UNIX or Linux skills, you'd do well to broaden your marketability by aquiring them; and a great way to do this is via help out in Open Source Projects.

NO! NO! NO!

[Anonymous Coward]

DAMNIT! Haven't you seen the movie ANTI-TRUST? This is exactly what they want you to do. DON'T DO IT!

What are we? CONSUMERS!

Sourceforge

[^DA]

How about looking at the Sourceforge Help wanted section?

What you're taught vs. what you learn

[JohnsonWax]

Working on the education side (Engineering) of this discussion, I have something to add.

Students come to me all the time in their senior year telling me that they don't know how to do anything and don't know what they should do for a job.

The reality is that they do know _how_ to do a great many things, but we don't have time practice all of them in the structured environment of a course. There's so much for an engineering student to learn to prepare them for employment. Most employers will take a new student and provide additional training in the specific area that they'll work in and it's our job to make sure that they have a good foundation to add to. (Training has been less common in the computer field the last few years compared to Civil, Mechanical, etc. but my guess is that'll swing around pretty quick here.)

The best thing for students to do is to take the initiative (that's important right there) to use their summers and free time to pursue internships, or participate in projects like open-source ones or maybe volunteer on a public service project.

What we cannot reproduce in an academic environment is the real-world. (We can on a small scale, but not for 2,000-40,000 students...) Students need to understand that the diploma is NOT the whole package, just a typical element of the package.

Re:What you're taught vs. what you learn

[GigsVT]

A typically worthless part of the package for those of us who do learn on our own, unlike the graduates that never take the time to really develop any skills past what is required to complete the assignment at hand.

A lot of the time, my coworkers come up to my office and see what I am doing, and ask me what it has to do with anything we are working on. Sometimes it doesn't, not right away. Then in a few weeks when I pull off something amazing, they never can figure out how I do it.

There are two types of people, the ones that work for themselves, the ones that work constantly to increase the stock in their "personal toolbox" and the kind that just figure out how to do the job at hand. IMO, the former has a much better chance at really getting things done, and usually higher education is a total waste of time for those types. Me included.

Re:What you're taught vs. what you learn

[Anonymous Coward]

"There are two types of people, the ones that work for themselves, (... work constantly to increase the stock in their `personal toolbox') and the kind that just figure out how to do the job at hand."

This is well said, to a point. Those who are good workers are those who are focused on a bigger picture than the one put in the 'to do' basket. Both education and 'toolbox' development fall can be used to this end or to its detriment.

Particularly, there are two points:
1) Education is only the first step to actually doing something. And this is where the initiative of the original poster will pay off. All he needs to do is step out and do something, (practically anything) and he will learn and grow and be more valuable. Many have grand plans and ideas. Few actually complete even a small vision.
2) Focus on forethought, planning, execution, and iteration to get things done. This helps you develop tools that are needed and to scope and pull off bigger jobs. (And keep oneself from making bigger and better tools if time is tight. I know personally sometimes I like making my tools spiffy instead of solving the actual problem).

Re:What you're taught vs. what you learn

[elflord]

There are two types of people, the ones that work for themselves, the ones that work constantly to increase the stock in their "personal toolbox" and the kind that just figure out how to do the job at hand. IMO, the former has a much better chance at really getting things done, and usually higher education is a total waste of time for those types. Me included.

Those who do develop their "personal toolbox" are IMO showing a more long-term mentality. Those who are completely absorbed by immediate goals are on a treadmill of sorts, and they miss out on a lot of important stuff, because it isn't "on the exam".

However, I dispute your contention that higher education is a "waste of time" for self-motivators. A good school will facilitate independent thinking, not stifle it.

Re:What you're taught vs. what you learn

[GigsVT]

Then Virginia Tech must be a very bad school. I didn't go anywhere else, so I don't have much else to compare it to.

Re:What you're taught vs. what you learn

[Andrewkov]

This sounds like me ... Didn't finish school, but I spend all my spare time reading computer books and hacking. I find it difficult to get my foot in the door, interviewers always want to know about education and certifications. I'm currently working in user support, as an IT supervisor/PC support, but I would rather be in a programming job. Any hints for someone like me to convince an employer to give me a chance? (And I can't work for free as other posts have suggested .. Mortgage, wife, car payments, etc)

What if...

[Anonymous Coward]

What if my grades suck and I don't have experience? I'm good with computers... better than most 'A' students. WTF am I going to do? I know, Gas Jockey. meh, *shrug.

databases and scripting

[MikeFM]

If you want an easy place to start where you're likely to find a good job I suggest you pick a web project and offer to maintain the db code of that project especially if you can work with both MySQL and Oracle. Being a DBA might not be the most fun but it seems to pay well and companies seem to always be looking for such help. Having Perl, Python, and PHP are also good languages to make sure you know. Any admin or web programming jobs you take will exercise all three heavily.

Have a web page with your resume and a list of projects you've worked on and examples of your programming. Pick some of your best work.. something of decent size and complexity that's implemented well.. and include it as a tar/gzip file when you submit your resume. Doing so greatly increases responses.

Difference between open source and real work

[lkaos]

I actually have always been a geek and programmed heavily before actually getting a job. In fact, I had more programming experience than most people at the first job I worked on.

But that didn't make me more productive. Working on a team in a production environment is very different than just programming on your own. I have always been told to leave Open Source stuff off of my resume. That doesn't mean you can't use it to refine your skills. I learned most of what I know on my own.

Now, by the same token, most college curriculums suck as far as CS is concerned. Realize that if you only rely on college to teach you how to program, your essentially going to an employer without knowing how to program.

I don't want to discourage OS programming, but do not do it with the expectation of having it help you get a better job. Do it because you either believe if in or because you really enjoy it. The last thing the OS community really needs are people who are just looking for resume builders (especially ones with little useful experience). If your really concerned about getting a job, get a co-op or internship.

Re:Difference between open source and real work

[Anonymous Coward]

Now, by the same token, most college curriculums suck as far as CS is concerned. Realize that if you only rely on college to teach you how to program, your essentially going to an employer without knowing how to program.

This might get a little offtopic. As an instructor at a professional college in computer programming (hence the AC-ness), I have to say that this is bang on.

There are schools out there that cost $15000-$20000 and promise to make you employable at the end of a year. For most people this is WASTED MONEY. I went to the school before taking an offer to teach (hey, it's a job, no heavy lifting (unless I have to unpack books)), and by day I was digging into VB/ADO/ASP/MS-SQL, and by night I was refining my Linux/C/PHP/PostgreSQL skills. When I was at school, I was one of the most qualified people on that floor including the instructors, and when I got out there the pickings were very slim.

I have a university degree in another discipline, and this is pretty much a golden rule -- if you rely on your curriculum to teach you what you need to know, you won't learn nearly enough, and certainly not enough to keep up with the people who love doing what you're studying for a living.

Re:Difference between open source and real work

[lkaos]

It's really sad.

I try not to blame universities though. CS is just a really new field. It's really only about 30 years old (for all pratical purposes).

Now, you have many professors who are trying to teach things like Java and C++ where these languages haven't existed for more than a couple years. Therefore, their experience with these languages is strictly academic. Your essentially getting a text book read to you in these circumstances.

It's ashame that more industry professional don't considering teaching. The industry's just so competitive that one simply can't resist the incredible difference in pay/respect.

Perhaps as computer science develops more as a science individuals will be drawn to it for purely academic reasons. For now, the only real merit to a CS degrees seems to the degree itself.

*sigh*

Our school

[hendridm]

Yeah, our school is on that track. We have business majors with MIS degrees and we have computer science majors. Of course the MIS people were in bed with Microsoft from the beginning. The CS people here, which are typical Slashdot geeks, fight to have UNIX/Java/Oracle as the campus standard, but in the end they too adopted MS Visual J++ (they eventually switched to VisualAge for Windows) and lost the war on the campus web standard (JSP? Sorry, you'll use ASP and you'll like it). Computer Services pushes them to have Windows on every box so they can have control over them, or they get no support. And sorry CS students, our laptops only come with Windows even though you check out more laptops that any other major (with the exception of the MIS kids). But, Macintosh is available for the departments that "need" it like Music and Art.

Re:Our school

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, there are 100 Windows programmers for each Unix one.
Don't underestimate them, Windows world has created one of the most complicated and succesfull applications ever ...

Re:Our school

[hendridm]

> Dude, there are 100 Windows programmers for each Unix one. Don't underestimate them, Windows world has created one of the most complicated and succesfull applications ever ...

1. What's your point?
2. Which "application" are you referring to?
3. I was merely suggesting that our school is similar to the parent post's situation. There was no argument.

Re:Our school

[Anonymous Coward]

"(JSP? Sorry, you'll use ASP and you'll like it)"

Hate to break it to you boss, but ASP may have been the standard (and still is for the most part) but PHP and MySQL (or PostgreSQL) are slowly taking over. My campus just switched over to PHP and as a member of the local ACM we also are running PHP and MySQL. Its much more ... non-VB (like asp is).

As far as linux and windows goes, most people use windows for their home desktops but would never run IIS over apache.

I'm hardly a "typical linux/unix geek" but i use linux for any types of servers I want to create.

I'm also the CS Lab manager here and we duel boot all of our machines allowing linux and windows (using samaba to control accounts)

Re:Our school

[Anonymous Coward]

It's sad, but true. I graduated with a Masters in Information Systems (MIS) last summer. There was one professor that taught Java. All the rest were VB, ASP, IIS, MS-SQL server loving fools (though respected). I decided I was not going to get into bed with MS technology. I had recently installed Linux on my home box and was realizing the evils of Microsoft's monopolistic tactics. I went the Java route. To get more advanced Java, I then went over to the College of Computer Science and Engineering. I also took in a course on Perl (written in Vi and run on Linux). In the College of Business, where the MIS students were, we had Windows 2k boxes. On the computer science end of things, they had dual boot Win98 and RH Linux boxes (also some Sun workstations). My experience with Linux and my course work on the computer science end of things were the things that helped me land a job as a Programmer, rather than a Business Systems Specialist (basically, no coding). Unfortunately, the company that I am working for is in bed with Microsoft, and we are programming for .NET using VB.NET. :-( All that Java knowledge......Aaaaahhhhggghhhh!!!!!!

You can learn loads just by reading the code

[dtr20]

With OSS code around, it's a fantastic opportunity to *read* lots of other people's code. Writing some HTTP protocol stuff? Take a peek at the Mozilla, Konq, curl etc source for some pretty wildly different ideas at how others have tackled it, and compare it with your own ideas.

Books and professors never seem to teach you about ideas for debug, error handling, build systems, using profiling tools etc. Also, by dipping into lots of projects you can get a feel for what's good and what works for different situations, much quicker than the usual company where you'll tend to stick to the same tools and systems, not to mention a small pool of opinions.

The environment / requirements of your software will no doubt be changing quickly so you need to keep getting wider experience than your job generally gives you.

Re:One question you will ask more than any others.

[Anonymous Coward]

Writing up project plans, sticking to deadlines, THAT is what is important.

Speaking of which, Jensen, you'd better get the hell off Slashdot and get on those TPS reports. I want them on my desk by tomorrow, 7 AM.

~~~

Games?

[lowe0]

Explain to me how 3d software engines can survive as OSS. If Carmack's toy chest were laid open for all the world in minutes instead of months, the people learning from his code would be his competitors, not just his admirers.

id makes a fair chunk of change off of each license of their engines (I believe it's a quarter of a million dollars, though I might be mistaken, plus there's a royalty percentage.) That's two million off of one engine (let's assume they made as much off of Quake III as they would have another licensed title.) Not a bad chunk of change. If they had opened their engine, I doubt they would have made nearly as much.

I think Carmack's done a great job of giving to the community, but to say that he has no need to create proprietary software is insane. No one would license an engine ever again if the best ones were available for free.

Raining lollypops and kittens?

[Anonymous Coward]

> wow. I wished I lived in your world. It probably rains lollypops and kittens too.

That sounds pretty messy.

::Ralph Wiggam voice::
"The ground's squishy!"

what you should do

[Anonymous Coward]

whatever you decide to contribute to, dont make the journey into the reward. in other words, dont just set out to gain experience. find something where you can make a quantifiable difference.

it will help your resume to have items like this: "helped implement improvements to the server that doubled simultaneous capacity, while using less RAM and CPU per user"... rather than "worked on various open-source projects".

open source or not, find something that you can improve in such a way that the difference is obvious, and could only have happened because of your superior skillz.

Softball questions

[Codex The Sloth]

Throw a rock and you could hit an open-source project. Do me a favour though -- throw it hard.

Internships

[Lando]

I know a lot of people that take on interns. Might not be paid experience, but it is work experience and looks good on a resume.

I've had interns use me as references to get jobs plenty of times. Mainly it takes a little effort on the employers part, but several of the companies I work with have similiar programs... It's merely a matter of students contacting us and asking for free training in exchange for helping out.

Keep in mind that there are a lot of small computer companies out there, even now... We've had our incomes cut because it's been hard to sell with the internet crash and then 911. Most of us know what it's like to be at the bottom and are willing to help give experience.

Keep in mind as well, going to work on an OSS project is just as valid to most of the computer programming firms I know. It probably won't help getting you a job at Big Blue, ATT or any other fortune 500 company, however most software companies are not that big and while a cvs/resume gets you a chance to be heard, pulling out a software package that you helped to produce can blow anything else away.

Lando

starting their own project is a hard...

[ostrich2]

This sounds a little half-baked to me. I started my own project; I didn't have any idea how when I started. But I went through the EXPERIENCE of doing it, and now it's something I know how to do. Where, exactly, do you expect to get EXPERIENCE if you don't want to do the stuff you're perfectly suited for? It sounds like if the college you attended wasn't offering the Experience Class before you graduated, and now you're trying to find it somewhere else.

If I were an employer, I'd certainly look for people that know how to set up a CVS Repository and set up a mailing list. Jobs aren't all about writing de coolest MMORPG, a lot of time is spent filling out insurance forms, and finding how an organization works.

I just don't think the real world is much like college. There's no dropping the real-world when you're not sure you'll pass. You jump in and hopefully you can swim. Doing things you don't know how to do simply because you need to know how to do them is THE BEST WAY to get experience. In that light, it doesn't make much sense to say it's too hard to do something.

Jump right in!

[volcanic_god]

There a tons and tons and tons of popular Open Source applications that need work. I don't think that anyone needs to reinvent the wheel or discover the next "killer app". Just a little poking around should yield many possibilities.

If I was to start looking I would find "old" KDE apps and port them to KDE2. I am tired of my old apps not working with KDE2.

My $0.02 for whatever it is worth.

Jump on in!

[zachlipton]

I'm 13 years old and am involved in the Mozilla project and somewhat in the parrot (parrotcode.org) project as well. If you don't believe me, do a google search on my name (Zach Lipton)... I got involved with Mozilla two years ago and as they say "On the internet, no-one knows you are a dog."

Mozilla has had some exiciting work done by students (including one high school student who is 15 years old who interned at Netscape last summer) and http://www.mozilla.org/school shows that open-source as an assignment really does work.

Instead of wasting time with small example programs, simply getting involved with a project and keeping a record of what you do may be one of the best ways to really learn about software development. I am the Quality Assurence Contact for 3 components and the Owner for 2 in mozilla.org and I am able to communicate with other developers around the globe on irc.

So come on in and join the pool, many opensource projects are standing by for your patches!

Re:Jump on in!

[Anonymous Coward]

No wonder Mozilla is so buggy and slow.

Re:Jump on in!

[trg83]

Download a more recent build, moron. Maybe even compile from source. Mozilla is the highest quality browser I have used on Linux. It's not up to Internet Explorer standards yet, but that will come.

Re:Jump on in!

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't call a 13 year old a moron, it makes you sounds like a real asshole.

If you haven't already got a job, forget it

[f00zbll]

This type of question comes up again and again. First off, if you're so lazy that you haven't gotten a job in the 4-6 years in an undergraduate program, than it's your loss. I worked fulltime and took 24 units in the UC trimester system every year. Those who moan and groan "how do I get experience" need a good swift kick in the butt from their parents. I find these kinds of question an insult to all those who worked their asses off in college. I had plenty of friends who expected to get high paying jobs right out of college and had big monthly stipend from their parents. The fact is, there's plenty of internship and training opportunities. If you don't have experience by the time you graduate, you deserve what you get. I'll stop ranting now.

go ahead and mod this down for bitching

Re:If you haven't already got a job, forget it

[ErikZ]

Yep! I worked my way though college as an AS/400 operator! You know what that gets me? ZILCH!

Oh wait, there is a job in the area looking for AS/400 operators...who speak French or Spanish fluently.

Oh, and I got the internship. Paying internship. I was the only programmer there and did a lot of work. Results? NOTHING!

People who are hiring don't care if you've done an internship; they don't care if you worked your way though college, they don't care if God himself sent you down to apply for that job.

If you don't have X years experience doing Y, your resume goes into the cirular file.

Re:If you haven't already got a job, forget it

[f00zbll]

Yeah, but even with X number of years of experience is no gaurantee either. As others have said, it more about who you know and how you network.

Re:If you haven't already got a job, forget it

[Anonymous Coward]

People who are hiring don't care if you've done an internship; they don't care if you worked your way though college, they don't care if God himself sent you down to apply for that job. If you don't have X years experience doing Y, your resume goes into the cirular file.

if you're not even getting interviews, and your resume is consistently dropped on the floor, you need to rethink your strategy. For example, how are you applying for jobs ? I've observed enormous differences in responses, depending on which newspaper. whether the application is emailed or faxed, and a number of other factors. Obviously, you have a relatively high success rate if you get a chance to respond to "word-of-mouth" advirtisements. Have you had your resume reviewed by a job placement agency or similar ? Etc etc. I'm quite surprised to see you're unemployable. I'm working at a university, and we have a hard time finding competent systems administrators. (The pay is not all that good, but it's a lot better than unemployment)

Um... how about....

[Uberminky]

Many would like to have something concrete to put down on their resume or application to graduate school.

Great! Better get working then, eh?

However, starting their own project is a hard and time-consuming task.

Hard and time-consuming.. Hmmmm.. that sounds like precisely the kind of thing they might like to see on a resume. So how about starting your own projects?

I know the original comment didn't intend to ask, "We are lazy, what can we do that is easy but looks good?" But this is something I run into SOOOOO often, it's crazy. I have many hobbies. I take 3D photos. I render scenes in POV-Ray. I build robots and various other gadgets, etc etc. And you know what the first question is that I hear, whenever I show these to people? They say, "COOL!!" Followed by, "What class is this for?" To which I reply.. "Umm... it's... for fun." Seems to be a concept few people understand. (Although lately I've resorted to saying, "It's for the Robotics Club", which seems to make it all "normal" again in most peoples' eyes. They no longer question the fact that I'm doing work because I want to, because I enjoy it immensely. Good thing I never mention that I founded the club. They'd never understand that.)

Again, no disrespect meant to anybody. I just find it a bit odd that here I am, a Junior in college, and any time I do anything fun (or hard), it's immediately assumed that I'm doing it for credit. How about finding something you love to do, and WORKING YOUR BUTT OFF ON IT, and putting THAT on your resume? (Says the guy who'll probably NEVER find a career.. ;)

Re:Um... how about....

[tutal]

It seems as though you have forgotten what it is like to be a college student... particularly at a liberal arts college (you know the kind that at least trys to diversify your education). If yours was anything like mine it would read something like this...
6:30 am Get up
7:00 leave for internship
7:45-8 arrive at internship
8-1:30 work ass of at internship mostly solving petty user problems
1:30 bust ass to get to class
2-5 class
5 get to eat for the first time in the day
5:15 start working on homework
9-11 meeting for _____ group/committee
11-2:30 work on homework/senior thesis

Did I mention that this is my friday schedule?? Now I know I am not alone in saying where am I supposed to have time to work on this "project?"

Re:Um... how about....

[Uberminky]

It seems as though you have forgotten what it is like to be a college student... particularly at a liberal arts college

I find that statement hilarious. I haven't forgotten anything. I am a college student at a liberal arts college.

6:30 am Get up
etc etc etc

Cry me a river. So your schedule sucks. What can I do about it? You could have done something about it, that's for sure. So you haven't got time for any big projects. Do you expect, then, that you can pick up some open source project, work on it in the 5 free minutes that you say you don't even have, and expect it to look great on your resume? Because, after all, that's what we're talking about here.

Sorry if this message was rude, I just don't see the relevance of what you said.

Re:Um... how about....

[tutal]

Do you expect, then, that you can pick up some open source project, work on it in the 5 free minutes that you say you don't even have, and expect it to look great on your resume?

That's exactly my point... I think we're in agreement that for what I see would be good employee prospects, working on an opensource project can only be an afterthought to studies. The reason why I chose to go to a liberal arts university rather than an engineering school reflects this idea... Rather than being the most prolific coder (which I'm not) I'd rather be able to sell my ability to understand problems, think of a solution and effectively communicate both. As far as my carreer aspirations yeah I want to work in the technology industry (preferably in system administration or security) but unless I'm working for a computer company, I'll have to have some kind of understanding as to what goes on in the real world... how the business is run etc. etc. To sum up, I think that being a CS grad shows your competency in the technology realm, however that should not be your only concentration in life or on your resume for that manner.

Re:Um... how about....

[Uberminky]

Agree with you totally. :)

Start a project on Sourceforge

[Tremul]

I'm in college taking a full load and I'm the administrator of a project on sourceforge. Yeah it's hard but if you don't love coding enough to get involved in a project then you need to switch majors

Seek Though shall find

[jjr]

I am about to graduate soon. I had an intership, a job, and side work that has given me experience in computer science. Myself I a math major with a cs minor but I know I will have no problem finding jobs out there (because I already have one). I known people who got jobs because of a website they developed. You can think of OpenSource project like a profilio. Also there are plently of small businesses who need someone to do some type of programming work for them. You can either do some pro bono work for them or charge them. There are plenty of chooses out there for you to show you got the stuff you just have to look for them.

Fellow VT Student Here

[DeathPooky]

Well, I'm a CS student at Virginia Tech as well, currently in my second year, so I know what you're talking about in reference to the math intensive curriculum they give here, but I disagree. A good math basis is extremely important for anyone planning on going anywhere in with Computer Science. What exactly does math teach you? It's not as much the nitty gritty calculus stuff that's important as it is the skills you learn from doing math - being able to analyze problems, problem solving, and the most important skill a CS person can have, thinking logically. It's skills like those that make you a good programmer.

In terms of them teaching C++, you're going to learn C++ at first at most schools you go to, and after you learn C++ and the basics of programming, you can use those skills to pick up new languages quite easily. If you really do have an interest in doing well in CS, put some outside effort into it, do some pet projects in other languages.

And also, I'd say Virginia Tech has one of the best CS programs in the nation, so if you aren't getting anything out of your classes there, you might want to rethink your choice of majors.

Re:Fellow VT Student Here

[richieb]

What exactly does math teach you? It's not as much the nitty gritty calculus stuff that's important as it is the skills you learn from doing math - being able to analyze problems, problem solving, and the most important skill a CS person can have, thinking logically. It's skills like those that make you a good programmer.

It's much more than that. Math teaches how to handle abstractions. And software design is all abstraction - you try create solutions to real world problems from the abstract stuff of computing.

In my experience I found that programmers with lots of math background (way more than just calculus) make best software designers.

OSS as an educational system

[puddie]

Yes i believe OSS can be used to help educate in the mere areas of programming alone. Most OSS projects already have a design and simply need implementation (the dirty) work. My second year at RIT had me thrown into a class known as SE-361, software engineering. 20% of the class was code, if that. We focused primarly on the actual life line of a piece of software that we create from the ground up. Starting with analysis design to actual design to implementation to the presentation of the product ( with testing being weaved in an out of every step of the way ). We would weigh risks, analyze and re-analyze every decision we made. To me this class was the first step in making me valuable to the working world. No longer looked at as 'someone who knows code' but as someone who has a better idea of how much time each step of the software process takes (thus helping a company develop a budget and time frame for when a product will be ready for release) These are the things that will be more valuable to you in the long run, the coding skills just come along for the fun. I have yet to really get my hands dirty in any OSS devlopment, maybe i should start... but from these threads it seems more roughneck coding than it does organized maturing of a software system.

-jricci.

How to get a job

[Anonymous Coward]

I find that being good-looking and personable helps immensely in the interview process. I routinely get picked over people who have more technical knowledge. That first impression is all important. A person will judge whether they want you as part of their company or not by their initial impression of you. That boils down to how you look, and your personality. The technical stuff is secondary.

In the interview, establish rapport with the interviewer, show that you understand the company's unique problems and show that you can pick up the requirements the company will have of you as an employee quickly.

Develop your people skills, and you will never be unemployed. I have rarely left a job interview without a solid offer, and I assure you its not because of my tech skills. Granted, those are necessary, but if you think that is what gets you hired, think again.

Re:How to get a job

[Anonymous Coward]

What role do you think hair styles play in tech jobs past present and future? Should I wear a 3-piece suit?

Re:How to get a job

[Anonymous Coward]

it all depends on the company. How do they dress and act? Go hang out at a popular bar near the company you want to work for, and get to know a few people who work there. Hell, I've managed to get interviews just doing that alone.

Jabber Instant Messaging

[tickle_me_perl]

I would suggest looking at the Jabber Instant messaging system. It's is a very welcoming crowd, and there is much work to be done. If your into C then you can help with the server. Perl, XML, Java, Python, and whatever else your niche might be, there is a need for it.
Jabber.org

Is this really a problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this really a problem? Is there really a shortage of jobs out there? I imagine it is hard for goofballs with nothing going for them to find work, but real CS'ers should be able to find work.

If you really love CS, you'll get the experience and knowledge you need. People who love CS (the kind of people I want working for me) do cool stuff because it is cool, not because it looks good on a resume or a Prof assigned it. People who study CS for reasons other than a love of the subject matter just go class and work on thier assignments. They never get under the covers. This lack of depth is apparent to employers. If you love it, employers will respond.

I'll let y'all in on a little secret...

[Anonymous Coward]

If you have even decent technical chops, but also show enthusiasm for learning about and understanding the business (be it insurance, banking, retail, etc) that your employer is in, goes a *long* way toward getting hired, staying employed, etc...

If you are a programmer sitting in a large conference room with the end-users for 3 hours listening to and understanding what it is they really want and need in "Accounting-Wiz 14.7", as well as asking good, pointed questions every so often, and not sitting there reading downloaded /. on your Palm Pilot the whole time, you can do very well in the corporate world, even if your coding skills are not up to 'elite' status...

Re:I'll let y'all in on a little secret...

[Anonymous Coward]

You forget to mention that the person listening to all this is supposed to write it down in to a Specification. I think this may be were the code grinders in this place are going wrong.

Talk To Professors

[Josuah]

If you want some real experience working on software development, try asking your professors. After all, many of them are working on large software projects and could always use your slave labor. The resources and projects are there. It sounds like you just haven't taken the time to look in your own backyard.

If you really want open-source, then professors are still a good person to ask because they are probably working on open-source software projects funded by the NSF or some other government agency (well, at least those at public institutions probably are, since the private ones may have deals with industry). I've been working on Open Mash, a very large open-source project, for two years now because my faculty advisor is the guy heading that project.

What happened to ingenuity?

[Anonymous Coward]

Aren't young minds supposed to come out of college with all these fresh ideas with the potential to revolutionize the world?

Most CS programs are producing drones...no brilliance, no passion.
If I were in position to hire any of these guys, I would rather send the work to India where fierce competition and the course work produce better drones that get the work done for less.
Please think, think, think! Use your brains.

And don't give the excuse that these kids need experience, b'se the best time to get a cool idea is now before your mind gets corrupted by the old way of doing things.

Here is a challenge, make me an IDE I can sing pseudo code to and compile my project while in bed.
Or if I'm out skiing and find a solution to a nagging problem, I want to yank out a cell-phone, talk to my IDE (no typing here) and get the job done right there and then.

Get the idea?
Now can you do that for me please?

Re:What happened to ingenuity?

[Anonymous Coward]

What is it all about India that you are trying to point?

Re:What happened to ingenuity?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not bashing India.
But I know their wages are lower, the quality of work is superb and their educational system is ultra competitive.
However, that type of system doesn't produce innovators.
In short it produces drones.
Brilliant drone nonetheless.
B'se of the boom in the software industry, many colleges in the west are now producing similar students who have no passion.
But the Indians are better at it.
(I'm not Indian, just visited on a research project and worked with some of the best students over so I know what type of students they have. B.T.W I saw the same problem in Poland).

And further..

[Uberminky]

And further (to continue my last reply), it's not like I have any free time in my schedule. Because I don't. And it drives me absolutely crazy that I don't have time to do this stuff. I do it on weekends after I get off work at 9pm, in the odd few moments between homework and trying to get enough food, or any other time I can. You can make time for what you love. (Maybe not very much time, but you can make time.) And if you can't make time, perhaps you have bigger problems to deal with than what to get on your resume. (And anyway, I don't know what you're complaining about, it's not like they won't see that internship on your resume.)

It's NOT yours!

[richieb]

No will do. Like it or not, software is intellectual property. *My* intellectual property, the stuff that keeps food on the table and my kids warm and dry. *I* write it, *I* decide how to license it. Open source is an option. One option.

Actually, if you are getting paid to write software most likely that software is not your IP. It belongs to the company that pays you. This is called work for hire.

Don't believe me? Try take the source with you to the next job.

I never said this year.

[Jonathan Hamilton]

did I?
Look for the last 3 years.

No.

[Jonathan Hamilton]

I'm sure they are to busy studying to care. And will be to busy working to enjoy life and family.
And will die a early age from stress related to their job. Their rich spoiled children will be the one's enjoying their dad's money.

Fuck that.
As Chef (from soutpark) says "There is a time and a place for everything, and it's called College"

Re:Inane College Questions Considered Tiresome

[Anonymous Coward]

damn right.

BSD source code

[Anonymous Coward]

The entire BSD Unix(tm) source code is available
in the FreeBSD distribution and buildable with
a single 'make world' in /usr/src. This includes
all the C libraries, compilers, kernel, utilities,
and even games. BSD makes a great source of
free source code to study---all unified and
complete source for everything, even the installer
which is proprietary closed software with many
*linux distributions.

Re:FUCK CANADA!!

[Robbat2]

A Canadian man was having coffee and croissants with butter and jam in a diner when an American man, chewing gum, sat down next to him. The Canadian ignored the American, who, nevertheless, started up a conversation.

The American snapped his gum and said, "You Canadian folk eat the whole bread?"
The Canadian frowned, annoyed with being bothered during his breakfast, and replied, "Of course."

The American blew a huge bubble. "We don't. In the States, we only eat what's inside. The crusts we collect in a container, recycle them, transform them into croissants and sell them to Canada." The American had a smirk on his face.

The Canadian listened in silence.

The American persisted. "D'ya eat jelly with the bread?"

Sighing, the Canadian replied, "Of course."

Cracking his gum between his teeth, the American said, "We don't. In the States, we eat fresh fruit for breakfast, then we put all the peels, seeds, and leftovers in containers, recycle them, transform them into jam and sell it to Canada."

The Canadian then asked, "Do you have sex in the States?"

The American smiled and said, "Why of course we do."

The Canadian leaned closer to him and asked, "And what do you do with the condoms once you've used them?"

"We throw them away, of course."

Now it was the Canadian's turn to smile. "We don't. In Canada, we put them in a container, recycle them, melt them down into chewing gum and sell them to the United States."

College is good!!!, right?

[Anonymous Coward]

Just an observation. If college is good, why do
people need to stress that fact over and over?

Re:College is good!!!, right?

[tlh1005]

Because increasingly on slashdot, a CS degree gets hated on. Alot of times its not warranted either. For instance, someone inquired a month ago about getting a MS degree in CS during downtime, but got a bunch of replies about how worthless college is and how so and so made it without a degree. Sometimes I wonder what is worse in the eyes of many here, a CS graduate or Windows.

Tips to gain acceptance of Open Source peers...

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Reformat the open source code to suit your indenting, spacing and bracket preference and submit your changes as a patch. The Linux kernel has all sorts of poorly indented code - start by reindenting the IDE disk driver. Your peers will value your initiative.

2. Make suggestions to the team about why they didn't do this or that like that other project that's way better. People will admire your candor and insight.

3. Delegate! Delegate Delegate! Why code yourself when others can do it for you? This will help you gain valuable management skills for a future job.

Holy crap...

[Hard_Code]

...for one, stop reading and posting silly questions to Slashdot, and just subscribe to any one of the mailing lists of the many open source projects around. Pick something that sounds interesting. Or find a pyschologist if you don't know what is interesting to you. Sheesh.

Open research forums.

[Capt.Smirk]

As I approached completion of my undergraduate degree, I was lucky enough to get a graduate student level internship at NASA. While I was there, I learned that I could make important contributions by applying the theory I had learned in school; essentially doing graduate level research while still an undergraduate. Speculating that there were others out there like me, I came up with the idea that we could come together to form a online research society. The society would differ from the open source community in that it would be based around a process. People would submit proposals, contributors would then offer resources for implementing the proposal, and the project would start when it had enough resources. The only constraints on the project proposal would be that it describes its goals, the process it will use to acheive these goals, and that it would have a deadline. The society would track proposal status and require a postmortem at the end of the project duration. This system is somewhat similar to the (failed) commercial ventures CoSource and SourceXchange, but would be not-for-profit.

While I understand that such a system is hardly any kind of substitute for a "real" job, the research would be public, and citation of such material would be valid resume fodder. Of course, you could be lazy like me and look for work in your school. What started my resume was not the internship at NASA, but work I did for a professor, namely C++/Win32 application development at $6/hr!

Save the Wild Thoughts and Ideas! -wildideas.org

-smirk

P.S. I just checked the link to find it didn't work anymore...then I found out that I had let my name registration lapse! If the above link doesn't work, wait for the DNS change to propigate. Thx.

hockey

[Anonymous Coward]

is all we are good at in Canada - but we sure kicked your sorry asses.

here's a tissue for your pathetic US crybaby women's team.

HA!

Non-profits

[jaciii]

Most non-profit agencies have a need for help in this area. Most are on a tight budget which is gettng tighter this year. The expereiecnce you will get is working on a team, meeting deadlines, and working with people who have minimal experience in IT (forcing you to translate what you know in ordinary people language.) The project maybe small or large, maybe sysad, maybe documenting what they have and fine tuning it. In the end you get great experience, grateful people, and great references,

Too true

[Anonymous Coward]

Too many programmers think that just because they can write a slick 2,000 LOC program, they can jump right onto a massive 3,500,000 LOC multi-year project and know what they are doing.

One's a dog house where just about every piece can stand on its own, the other is a 300-meter-tall skyscraper with massive interdependencies where a single fuck up can break everything.

And I doubt New York is planning on hiring the World's Best Dog House Builder to replace the WTC...

And guess what?

[Anonymous Coward]

When I'm hiring, it helps if you've worked O&M on operational code

And it's a big negative if you haven't.

I don't want any wet-behind-the-ears tit-sucking toddler who has to learn to write maintainable code on my watch.

Not me

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd ignore the OSS entry on the resume - like it's not there.

I'd ignore the applicant with the MCSE - like he's not there.

That's a difference :-)

We're doing this

[lkehresman]

At my university, we started a class called "Open Source Software Development" this spring. In it, we are actively working on an open source project, and are learning about the methodologies and philosophies that go along with this development model. On the practical side, we are also learning to use some of the most common development tools (SourceForge, CVS, Lists...). The class is student led with a professor overseeing the whole thing. So far it has been going really well. We are three weeks into the semester, and the students are already contributing quite a bit to the project. Looks like it's going to be a winner!

Luke

Re:Virginia Tech CS student (4-5 HOURS away)

[dwheeler]

Um, take another look at your map. Virginia Tech is 4-5 HOURS by car from Washington, DC. Washington, DC would be a perfectly good place to go for a summer internship, but it'd be one heckuva commute. You may be thinking of another university.

That being said, it is useful to have a background in Calculus, multiple programming languages, etc. Learning these things helps you more quickly absorb other things later, and being a quick study is really important. I program sometimes, and I do use Calculus for some of my work.

And yes, I think that unpaid experience with open source projects will help someone gain a job in developing software. I would certainly consider it as evidence of someone who was willing to go an extra step, and I could even look at their contributions to consider how well that person created code, interacted with others, and so on. But there are many factors, in particular, it'd be better if the open source project was related to the work that the person was applying for. And yes, there are open source software jobs!

Remember what Linux Fortune says about College!

[Pr0p3r_Tr0ll4g3]

LinuxBox:~$ fortune -m Kerr
%% (fortunes)
Kerr's Three Rules for a Successful College:
Have plenty of football for the alumni, sex for the students, and parking for the faculty.
LinuxBox:~$
I'm still waiting in line for this promised sex...

What does Open Source have to do with College? Not a God damn thing.

Yee ha!

[ansonyumo]

First, let me qualify my post:
* I regularly evaluate candidates for employment in a disciplined software development environment.
* I fully support Open Source Software.

That being said, the open source code that I have reviewed has been of low quality in the areas that I look for in evaluating candidates, including:
* strong OO principles
* rigorous design
* excellent documentation

The few open source projects that I have tried to contribute to (freenet being one) actually scoffed at these points, claiming them to be the stuff of over-educated highbrows, stuffed-shirt engineer etc.

If that is the culture of open source software, then so be it. However, in the world of commercial software development, these are very real, very important requirements. The best hacker is useless if he creates an unmaintainable system.

The point is that, from my experience, OSS projects and commercial development are two very different environments (granted, many commercially-developed codebases are poorly engineered, hackfully constructed and are devoid of documentation). OSS projects will get you acclimated to integrated your work with that of other developers', but may also indoctrinate you in an unrealistic development environment.

In other words, it produces a lot of cowboys. Don't expect your bazaar approach to be successful in the cathedral.

Re:Yee ha!

[richieb]

When you say that you look for:

* strong OO principles
* rigorous design
* excellent documentation

what exactly do you mean? The person can explain benfits of MI? Knows UML notation? What's "rigorous design"? Design that can be mathematically verified?

In other words, it produces a lot of cowboys. Don't expect your bazaar approach to be successful in the cathedral.

There are plenty of "cowboys" working on proprietary systems. You just don't know, because you cannot examine their code.

In OSS project the source code serves as the main communication medium between developers, it's the only documentation that never goes out of date.

Good software engineers are rare in any environment, but when you find them they can do amazing things.

As far as building "cathedrals" - I'd consider the Linux kernel and the Apache web server as pretty good examples of "cathedrals" built using the "bazaar" style of development. No?

Re:Yee ha!

[ansonyumo]

As far as looking for strong OO principles, I usually go through an exercise that demonstrates the candidate's knowledge of inheritance, encapsulation, polymorphism and late binding. Generally, I'll have the candidate design a small (~6 class) hierarchy to solve a textbook problem, then exercise the design via a set of use cases that further explore his understanding.

As we work in Java, I also throw in a few trivia questions that are relevant to the design. I'm not a big fan of language trivia, but these questions do tend to weed out the newbies.

"Rigorous design" is harder. As part of our methodology, the architects (myself included) produce a conceptual UML design that satsifies all identified use cases for the project at hand. "Rigorous" is a bit of an overstatement here. We follow the thinking that discoveries made during the development process will greatly influence the end design, so I don't like to tie engineers' hands with a micro-managing digram. As far as candidates are concerned, I look for genuine quality in the design produced during the above exercise, and also look for evidence of a commitment to upfront design when verbally reviewing prior works. The "rigorous design" statement was really more a shot at the OSS projects that forgoe any design.

Lastly, source code is not documentation. You might describe it as the ultimate functional spec, but documentation it is not. Documentation is intended to provide a high-level overview of the class/package/application/system to a person not familiar with it. Not only does it ease the learning curve for new developers, it will be required if your project is ever adopted by a third party organization (e.g. your employer strikes up a horizontal partnership deal). When people like Bertram Meyer espouse the need for documentation integrated with the source code, it's not because they can't understand the code. It is because proper documentation is key to creating a maintainable, reusable system. Also, when the documentation is integrated with the source there is much more of a motivation to keep it in date. Monolithic UML diagrams are a whole 'nother story, and that's why I don't do them.

Yes, cowboys abound in every development environment. My point is that the predominant OSS culture encourages a style of development that damns all the consequences and forges full speed ahead. Yes, this exists in commercial development(I have witnessed it first hand). I was trying to explain that a fresh-out developer needs to be wary of this behavior, as it will lead to a jungle of pitfalls.

I haven't spent enough time tooling around in Apache or Linux source to comment on the code. I just build and install these things. I will say that they seem to have acquired an astonishing amount of bureaucracy. Perhaps it is a natural evolution of all software that greatly exceeds the designers' original goal. A foolproof recipe for software bloat is one part niche success and two parts grass-roots (or any) marketing. Put both in a blender at hit "frappe".

Re:Yee ha!

[richieb]

Thanks for a thoughtful reply. I have just one more comment and a link. First you say:
Lastly, source code is not documentation.
But well written code should be. The "short form" of Eiffel class, which shows the assertions is much better doc than any hand written manual. Java doc can be equally good.

I suppose we also need documentation that describes the overall structure of the system etc. But this can be kept at a fairly high level and it should not change much.

As far as hiring people, I've hired plenty and ran across few that interviewed well, but turned out to be a disaster.

Finally, regaring hiring I found this article The Guerrilla Guide to Interviewing really helpful.

Re:Yee ha!

[ansonyumo]

Agreed. Well-written code should be readable, and design by contract is an effective way to improve the self-documentation of source code.

As far as hiring people, I've hired plenty and ran across few that interviewed well, but turned out to be a disaster.


Oh, yeah. Been there, done that. Every time I flip the bozo bit on somebody I mentally review their interview and what should have tipped me off.
Thanks for the link.

I could use some help on this one:

[lnxpilot]

www.equinox3d.com

It's a pretty decent sized project (~250000 lines of C code and growing rapidly).

Experience with:
-3D programming (modeling, rendering animation)
-GUI design/programming
-large system core design
-API design.
-or even 3D artwork
would be very useful.

If it ever becomes a commercial product, I'll let contributors in on the profit (promise, boyscout's honor :) ).

A quick way to "get into open source"...

[mjk8ball]

Well I was in the same boat you were in a year ago. A friend of mine and I discussed joining an open source project and we started by hanging out on freshmeat; eventually we found a project that was appealing. So, we've chosen to modify it a little and improve the code-base (clean it up b/c it's pretty ugly looking).

From there I'd suggest doing what everyone else is suggesting...goto sourceforge, find something of interest and go for it.

A couple of key points you should keep in mind first though.

• Learn how to work off/with IRC! This is very important b/c *almost* every project uses IRC as a key point of communication...this is where you'll meet the developers of said project and they may "task" you to do something.
• Be relaxed! I got in there and started throwing around the computer science terminology I was learning from class. Turns out I was annoying some of the developers on the project. They thought I was taking my work (well, their work really) too seriously. Some people just do this stuff for fun. Keep that in mind.
• Email one of the developers! Find someone within the project that is working on something that maybe your strong point or interest area. Make sure to be up front with them about your "newbie-ness".

That about covers it for now - just remember: sourceforge, freshmeat, and open projects are good starting points - I'm sure people will add to this thread if it's interesting enough. I've recently delved into open source work and it's been really enjoyable.

Undergrads do not make good programmers... yet

[trenton]

Can undergrads really participate in this? I mean, sure there are a few with some skills. But the vast majority have trouble understanding basic OO concepts. Even fewer (as in none) would understand how to use cvs, or debug, or whatever.

In my experience (as a college grad and TA) is that you don't really become a Software Engineer until you spend a year or two in the Software Industry.

Re:Virginia Tech CS student (4-5 HOURS away)

[Anonymous Coward]

" but it'd be one heckuva commute"

It ain't 4-5 hours; you can make it from DC to NC in 4-5 hours. I've done it in about 2 (the original poster was exaggerating), but the point is that VT is in a little no-where burg. Its fun there, but its a college town.

If he wants to get a job, he's going to have to move either north or south. He's a whiner by saying "well you have to go to the big city..."

Well, yeah. You have to do a lot of things to get ahead in life. The whining about calculus is just that...whining. He needs to buckle down and study and stop pretending that a 20 year old is smart enough to decide what should and shouldn't be in the CS curiculum.

What many of our people at our shop do...

[pixel_bc]

While I personally take note of programming done outside of school, or on the side in open source projects as an interest... I don't count "3 years contributing / maintaining some open source package" as 3 years of expierience. It does put you ahead of the pack if you're equal in all other respects, though. It also lets me check the quality of your work. This is always a good thing!

I know a few lead engineers in our building figure candidates have 1 year "practicle experience" for every 3 or 4 spent playng around as a hobbyist or in their own time after school / work.

KDE?

[abdulla]

i don't know how you can say this which such a fine counter example, the KDE team work beautifully together, that's the kind of action you should be getting in to.

Shooting your own leg?

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't it ironical that students will help develop projects which compete with businesses they want to make a living from?

(If the projects were small utilites that don't compete, the experience on small projects wouldn't matter much anyway.)

As someone pointed out, the only way to "earn" from OSS is in an indirect way, that is consulting, etc. But two points to be noted:
1. Why give your product for free (open) while charging for consultation? Aren't they conflicting ideals?
2. If your product requires too much consultation, it's probably time to redesign it :)

(All said and done, I have myself contributed a bit to OSS, and use its products extensively. But somewhere I feel something is wrong)

Fast Learner

[DPalomo]

I started last October working after I got my master's degree in CS.

The only thing really learned during this study, is to learn quickly new programming languages, development methods, etc... No real substantial development experience. (all the team development we had, was pair programming!)

While the company I started working for has also some difficult times (yes, they also had sent home several people), they still hired me based on the ability to be useful for a project in a short period without having any experience in the project (field/programming languages/SE lifecycle).

I think it depends on the type of company you're applying, but there are several companies which find it very important to have flexible employees that can aquire new skills fastly and do not specially have to be specialists in the field.

Daniel.

Lame

[Anonymous Coward]

"However, starting their own project is a hard and time-consuming task."

Another case of how i can i get something for nothing. Classic open source ideal.

I would guess

[Anonymous Coward]

technical system design from functional system design. Of course now all the OSS crowd will ask what the word "design" means :-)

Re:I would guess

[Anonymous Coward]

technical system design from functional system design

Most people refer to these as a "design spec" and "functional spec" respectively. I've worked in about a half-dozen software specialties, and never seen TSD or FSD. A lot of other people here with non-trivial software engineering experience seem to be saying likewise. The people saying that you should explain domain-specific acronyms are right./pP

KBASIC

[Anonymous Coward]

We do need your help for the KDE Basic Project. The final goal is to create a kind of VB-replacement. KBasic is 0.8 and the milestone is to support Qbasic - language. Programmers that are interested in language design, compiler and this stuff... The project now lacks of developers, but it is of stretegic importance for the KDE Desktop.

www.kbasic.org

Place for Open Source Progamming in College

[bryanwclark]

I think I'm pretty lucky at my school, recently we recieved resources from the administration to construct an Open Source Institute on campus. We were giving a computer lab area where we fixed up some old PC's and created our own distrobution so that we may easily instlal all the packages necessary to our environment.

Being apart of the Clarkson Open Source Institute can earn you actual credit hours, we have projects that we do for the community and for the school. Linux training and tutorial sessions that provide newbies with a jumpstart into running linux. We also have several software projects underway that will help the campus and Open Source community at large. We provide a CVS server to the campus with tutorials on how to properly use CVS, as well as a central meeting place for recruiters looking for linux talent and others interested in linux in general.

The students here are not doing any of this for money, rather just fun and experience, I have a great time hanging out with the guys programming into the wee hours of the night. You're more than welcome to check out our webpage that explains a little about COSI (Clarkson Open Source Institute)

OSS Project Leads Should Help Students Help Out

[elliotj]

I think the idea of harnessing students to help out with OSS projects is a great idea. Now a lot of people on this thread have argued that OSS projects may be unsuitable to student involvement for various reasons. I would argue that while that may be true, the project leads running OSS projects should do what it takes to get students involved.

If you get a bunch of students working on OSS in school, there's a decent chance a few will stay with OSS after they graduate. This is the same concept used by industry to justify summer student employment programmes. And it works. You want to attract top talent to your organization whether you're for profit or not. That should extend to OSS. Why not compete to get the best minds working on your project in the future?

Now that being said, it does require some effort. Having hired summer interns in the past (I run a small IT dept), I am aware that you can't just expect them to be productive when they show up. It requires extra planning and patience. You have to take time to explain how things work in your organization, how they can help and what they need to do. But invariably, this patience is rewarded once they get on their feet and start being productive. Typically these students do the work nobody else wants to do, but having been one myself at one point, I can attest to the enthusiasm with which this work is met. As a student you are starved for real-world work, and working for any organization that isn't school seems exciting.

So I urge project leads to seriously think about how they can encourage students to join their projects.

Open source software is generally negative

[heroine]

Because in order for a software project to have any effect it has to be judged by other people interested in open source software. These people are also the same ones you compete with to get jobs and are usually more intimidated than impressed.

Instead of writing free software to gain experience you should use open source software to interact with other programmers who can then get you leads. Most open source projects are created for social value not for software production.

no

[Anonymous Coward]

sorry, no.

Again, asking the wrong question

[The Swedish Chef]

Note: I am an IBM employee, but these opinions and observations are mine and do not necessarily represent the views and opinions of IBM.

One thing I always love about "Ask Slashdot" is that people ask questions who seem to have already made up their mind about the answer. This questioner is no different. A more useful question would have been: I'm a CS undergrad and I'm getting ready to graduate. What weapons do I need in the interview process to land me a job given the current economy? See how that question doesn't presuppose an answer?

I'll answer the question you should have asked, rather than the one you did ask. So, what is important for the job-seeking CS undergrad these days? The first thing would be to find a company that is actually still hiring undergrads. Don't let the fact that some company XYZ was at your college's job fair imply that they are looking to hire you. When I went back to my alma mater in October to assist with the recruiting effort, there were several companies at the job fair who were there basically to save face. Many weren't hiring and were simply collecting resumes which I can only assume went straight to the nearest recycling bin. You're wasting your time pursuing a company like this. If they don't have the budget to hire people, then it doesn't matter how intelligent or skilled you are, you won't be hired there. That said, there are still some companies that are hiring. The key difference is that now they are looking for the absolute cream of the crop. This is opposed to just a few years ago, when software companies were hiring anyone who was remotely qualified.

So what makes you the cream of the crop? Obviously, intelligence and raw ability are very important. If you have shitty grades, you might as well start looking for a job in another field; however, your intellect alone is not going to get you a job.

Experience is also very important. You touched on this with your original question, but I think that you're looking in the wrong place to gain experience. While you can certainly argue that OSS experience is better than no experience, I would say that working on an OSS project doesn't really give you the kind of experience that commercial software firms are looking for. Hiring managers want to see that you've worked in a close knit, team setting; they want to see that you can communicate effectively with your teammates (in both oral and written media); they want to see that you have solid design skills. Basically, they want to see if you have a structured approach to designing, writing, documenting and testing software. In contrast, OSS projects seem to take a more freeform approach which is orthogonal to how commercial firms do business. There are exceptions to be sure, but I think that by and large the majority of OSS projects aren't going to provide you the right kind of experience. A better approach would be to secure an internship or co-op position. Not only do you get some experience in the "cathedral", but you also get your foot in the door for when you do graduate.

Something else to consider is your prospective employer's attitude towards the OSS movement. Some companies are outwardly embracing OSS because they see the business climate as heading that way - basically, an "if you can't beat'em, join'em" attitude. Even if the company is outwardly a supporter of OSS, the individual hiring managers may not be. My former manager was very skittish about OSS, despite the fact that IBM is embracing it with more or less open arms. Here, you have to be able to get a read on the person who is going to be responsible to making you the actual job offer. Feel them out first before you launch into the OSS experience you have.

A passion for the technology is also important. Are you really excited about the field, or did you just pick CS because the monetary prospects looked good at the time? People who are really into technology wear that enthusiasm on their sleeves. It really comes through in an interview, and can make all the difference between otherwise equally qualified applicants. Find some area that you are really excited about an concentrate on it. Have some demos to show in the interview. Interviewers love to have something to back up the resume, and a portfolio CD is a great way to do that.

Re:Again, asking the wrong question

[ansonyumo]

Hey, don't knock the guys with shitty grades. I was too busy with personal coding projects to do things like "homework" and "attend class". Yeah, I had a hell of a time landing my first job but once I did, I blew the doors off of the coders that sported 4.0's and no initiative.

(GPA > 3.5) != wizBangDeveloper

In fact, most of the coders that I know who had excellent grades had a lot of trouble translating collegiate success to their careers. It's a very different game.

Re:Again, asking the wrong question

[The Swedish Chef]

I think if you read what I wrote more carefully, you'd see that at no time do I knock people with shitty grades. I'm simply pointing out that Joe RecruiterGuy is probably going to pass you over if your GPA is in the tank.

Consider why for just a moment. Your point, strictly speaking, is correct. Just because your grades are great, that doesn't make you a good programmer. Logically the contrapositive would also be true: just because your grades are bad, it doesn't mean you're a bad programmer.

The thing to keep in mind here is that recruiters use your grades to guage more than just your intellect. Grades can also give some insight into your "sticktuitiveness". Did you perform well in a class that you hated and didn't think was important? This translates directly to work situations where you'll have assignments that you loath, but still need to execute well.

These days, college recruiters are inundated with resumes for a shrinking number of positions. They have to make tough choices about who will and who won't get interviews. Whether you think it's fair or not, your GPA is probably going to be the most critical factor that lands you an interview.

There is some hope, even if your GPA is less than stellar. Establish a relationship with the campus recruiters. If you can wow them with your experience and other qualifications, they may be willing to give you a second look; doubly so if you can give a good explaination for poor grades.

Re:Again, asking the wrong question

[richieb]

I'm simply pointing out that Joe RecruiterGuy is probably going to pass you over if your GPA is in the tank.

When I interview people I'm very suspicious of 4.0 GPAs. Just means the person didn't take any difficult courses. :-)

Same story, different year

[pkesel]

When I graduated nearly ten years ago from a respected engineering school there were three recruiters on campus for over 100 CS grads. Most of us didn't even get to see an interviewer, much less get a shot at the job.

We didn't waste time looking for some neato project to keep us busy so we could try to con someone into thinking we had experience. We went to work for the government. We did real work for much less pay than we might have found in the corporate sector.

And in the end, after two years of that, guess what! We had two years of experience when the market turned around! And we went to work in the corporate world ahead of the guys just out of school and ahead of the guys hacking in their basements on BBS and lame ass game software while working at the grocery or building decks for old folks.

The market doesn't owe you anything just because you now know what made people rich five years ago. Do your time and pay the dues. The smoke and mirrors that this idea presents is akin to that which made the dot coms go bust.

Re:FUCK CANADA!!

[butch812]

That's pretty funny.

Do what you this is good for you...

[tlh1005]

There is nothing wrong with honing your skills or getting some experience with doing some open source work. Its not the route I took (I did a Co-Op) but how could it hurt. Find a project that interest you at Sourceforge or wherever and get to it! Sometimes employers ask for examples of past work and those types of projects wouldn't be bad to show. Plus it shows some initiative on your part. I hope you're not looking for someone to say that you'll get a job or more salary because of it though, no one can predict that. Either way, it never hurts to learn.

My second suggestion is to NOT ask slashdotters!
With the obvious exception of those out there who generally want to give good advice or help someone out here... the rest of the posters are either smart asses, off topic, or unconstructively critical. Instead of ANSWERING 'how', we like to ASK 'why the hell'.

What good does OSS development do on your resume?

[Anonymous Coward]

In my experience, recruiter's and HR people exhuberently overlook this as something that count or matter.

Is that true now

[junkgui]

It sounds like you were looking for a job in the middle of the internet/dot-com boom back when mosaic or netscape where king. Things have gotten a little more difficult for new graduates of late. So I don't know why the fact that you got a good job out of college 3 or 4 years ago has anything to do with the current situation...

Re:Is that true now

[wdr1]

So I don't know why the fact that you got a good job out of college 3 or 4 years ago has anything to do with the current situation...

Actually it was before the boom, but we weren't in a recesion, and that's a good point.

FWIW, like many folks out of school for sometime, part of duties often include hiring people. Personally, and the people I know, don't really rate knowing the specific language we use that important for *entry-level* positions. I don't really care if someone knows C. You can teach a monkey C. What I'm looking for is someone who's a good investment. Smart, good communicator, good team player, can see the big picture, eager, no attitude. For an entry-level spot, I'd take someone like that, who's never worked in C++, any day of the week.

-Bill

Re:Is that true now

[fonebone]

Actually it was before the boom, but we weren't in a recesion, and that's a good point.

nobody's in a recession. it seemed like the US might have been, but the GDP was +0.2% for the 4th quarter, so its technically not a recession.

Re:Is that true now

[wdr1]

Sure we are, or at least certainly we were. (Past you comment, I haven't seen anything new that we're out of it.)

The U.S. Recession began back in March of last year. CNN.com has more information, including this article.

HTH,
-Bill

Work on a cool project, not just OSS

[magic]

I work in computer graphics, which is a rapidly changing and very competitive field.

When interviewing candidates, I want to see one major project that they've worked on to which my immediate reaction is, "cool." If they want to write games, saying "I worked on Unreal2" is pretty cool. As a student, you probably can't say that. But a final or independent project you worked on that blows me away is going to get you a job where a 4.0 (5.0 for the MIT crowd) average, good letters of recommendation, and knowing 200 digits of PI will still get you dumped out the door if I don't think you have coding experience.

OSS is appealing to some people, and I support open software development in cases where it has a chance of being superior. But if I'm interviewing you, I don't care what your ethical standing is toward OSS-- I care if you worked on something cool and will help make our product cool, too. So if the choice is making a patch to the Linux kernal, a new GIMP filter, or working on something closed-source (or a personal project) but relevant to what you want to do professionally, ignore the OSS/closed distinction. It matters to you, not your employer, and they're the one making the decision.

-m

Not a good idea...

[Anonymous Coward]

In a project that everybody is allowed to contribute it's a hard thing to gain faim, almost as hard to start your own project. Put otherwise, how nuch gain you expect to get from a project whose quality is the result of many hands' effort? Probably in a project where the community is very closed and consists of few people, personal contribution can make some sence...

Don't be simplistic.

[jotaeleemeese]

There are fewer jobs, but obviously they are for the people willing to compete for them.

One way of enhancing your chances during the competition is acquiring new skills and experience.

The guy that does has a better chance than the guy that does not.

Debian

[karlheg]

Helping out on the Debian project will provide that sort of experience. Check the website for information about how to join the team and help out.

Running an open-source project at a University

[systemBuilder]

If i were teaching again at a university, i would run an open-source project as follows.

1. To do an open-source project requires 2 semesters (1 year) of work. There just isn't enough time to do something worthwhile in 1 semester. Therefore, to do a project with me, you'd have to agree (in principal) to sign up for two semesters of independent study.

2. In the first 20% of the project, the student would pick a topic area and write a thorough survey about what is available in that area. To save time, i would make available good surveys from previous students (if any). The survey would also contain a proposal for how to write something new and/or innovative in the domain.

There are many tired over-worked areas in computer science, such as real-time OS kernels, or C compilers, etc. To do a project in one of these tired areas, you'd have to present a really honking great idea in the first week or two of the class in order to be able to work on these dead topics. I would have a set of 10 canned idea areas but would not turn to these until the student had failed twice with their own ideas.

2. In the second 30% of the time, student would write a spec and pull together a development environment, including writing any software or hardware tools or developing ideas for any testing tools needed to complete the task.

3. Last 40-50% of the time is devoted to writing the code.

This is sort of what happened with my B.S. thesis in 1984, and it became a pretty successful open source project (the PC/IP multitasking TCP and SMTP).

This is a very hard thing for a faculty member to support because there is a lot of risk in step (1) that the student fails to find something interesting, and becaue of the need to hand out a grade at the end of the first semester, and allowing for the possibility that the student drops out of school, transfers, gets into a car wreck, hates my guts, or whatever, and gives up.

Re:Running an open-source project at a University

[Anonymous Coward]

I really don't get that. Where does OSS fit in your proposal? In my 3rd year I had a two terms project and I was part of a seven (7) memebers team. That's not OSS at all. What you are proposing is that the students should pick up an interesting project and work on it the way you have imagined, and which I think is fine. I really don't see where the term OSS get pluged in? maybe you meant a closed source project that is OSS to the point of view of the developers!
Or what you propose is that the students should complete some interesting project and then turn it into OSS (for the benefit of the general OSS community)?

Re:College affords plenty of experience already

[Anonymous Coward]

"Mustfuq, Iran".. HAHAHAHA. Quality trolling, really quality.