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More Trouble With AOL And GAIM
Well, AOL is at it again. In 1998, I wrote a program called GAIM which provided Linux users with a way to participate in AOL's Instant Messenger (tm) service. GAIM is one of the best examples of Open Source software in action, because even though I have not personally coded on it in years, momentum as continued through multiple maintainers to make it one of the best instant messaging programs available. From its humble beginnings as a two-week long project I started to teach myself GTK programming, to today where it is included in virtually ever Linux distribution, FreeBSD, and others, it has shown how even highly non-technical software can benefit from the Open Source model. We even receive numerous requests to port it to windows, because people like it more than the native AIM client in windows.
In July of 1999, I received a letter from AOL's Legal Representation requesting that we remove their AOL trademark and logo from our web site and product name, which we promptly did. Now, in 2001, the same firm has sent us notice requiring that we change the name of the product (that they clearly have known for almost 2 years) because they believe GAIM's name to be confusingly similar to the AIM trademark that they applied for in 2000, almost two years after gaim was released. We have until June 29, 2001 to prepare a response to their charges. Similar notices have been sent to the owners of the "AIMY," "KAIM," "wmGAIM," "TAIM," "phpaim," "blaim," "libfaim," "jaim," "eaim," and "maim" projects.
We have consulted with an attorney who believes we stand on a strong foot for the following reasons:
- "gaim" and others are not confusingly similar to "aim."
- Since AOL has been aware of our name for over two years and has not expressed any concern at the use of "aim" in the name of the product even while expressing concern over their AOL trademark and logo, they may have implicitly given us license to use it.
- AOL's trademark was filed for nearly two years after GAIM was first released. Unlike patents, it is sometimes permissible, however, to pursue a trademark since "first commercial use."
We are nearly out of options at this point, however, for the gaim project. We either will have to have some legal defense for gaim and the other projects, or will be obliged to change names.
If anyone out there is a lawyer, and is willing to take on this project to support these projects, please contact us by sending e-mail to gaimdefense@marko.net. We have a lawyer who is willing to do the requisit trademark research and send a letter for $500, so if you feel strongly enough that you are willing to contribute money to the project, please contact us and let us know that too.
Unfortunately, in the legal world, it's not just sufficient to be right, you have to have the finances, determination and other resources to fight the battle. There is always a balance tha requires picking and choosing the battles so important that you are willing fight, and those that you choose do not wish to spend resources defending. The question is, do the 40,000+ gaim users out there believe strongly enough that the defense of the "gaim" name is an important battle to fight.
Arrogantly Insolent Management
If I had to guess, I would say it (GAIM) stands for "GNU AOL Instant Messenger
No, no, you've got it all wrong. The G in GAIM stands for GTK.
Um, but then the G in GTK stands for Gimp...
And then the G in Gimp stands for GNU... which stands for GNU, which stands for GNU, which stands for GNU, which stands for GNU
Segmentation fault.
I like how you assume the windows client is 'good'. IMHO GAIM far surpasses the windows client in being friendly to your OS and in only doing what it needs to do and leaving all of the other stuff to other small applications that do a better job. I know several users who really hate the AIM client under windows and bemoan the lack of a viable alternative.
Down that path lies madness. On the other hand, the road to hell is paved with melting snowballs.
I read the internet for the articles.
Read my post again. Time does not matter here. It doesn't influence anything. Many cases out there have sided with the trademark holder despite the fact that they came to the table late.
Now I'm perhaps not as up on my Trademark law as you are (very likely, in fact) but I am certain that if a trademark is not savagely defended from the time it is registered then the trademark owner loses all pull. I'm not talking about Mr. A having something called Foo before Mr. B trademarks Foo<tm>, I'm talking about Mr B. knowing about Mr. A's Foo but not sending his lawyers out as soon as he became aware of Mr. A's use of Foo.
Unless I'm now getting trademarks and patents mixed up. I know that copyrights do not need to be savagely defended but either trademarks and/or patents do. If they aren't defended whenever "challenged" then the trademark and/or patent holder loses all power to legally wrangle use of the trademark or copyright.
The way trademark law works, they have to bully everyone who uses their name to refer to something else, even if the name is only slightly related. As far as I can tell, if they end up in a real trademark dispute, they lose if the other people can produce anyone they didn't bully.
On the other hand, if you were using the name 2 years ago without permission and they didn't bully you, you should be able to win just by saying that they didn't bully you two years ago; they failed for two years to defend their trademark (nevermind that they didn't have it at the time), so they lose.
On the first hand again, they've done their job if you get a ruling that says the names are different, because they will not have failed to defend their trademark. I suspect that you would be able to reach a good settlement if told them you were willing to acknowledge their trademark of "AIM" (which seems to be currently unacknowledged on the sourceforge site), and thought that "gaim" was sufficiently different to not constitute an example of someone using their trademark for two years without them complaining.
If you're willing to argue that what you've done does not infringe their trademark (as opposed to arguing that they've failed to defend it), it's in their best interests to let you win, since they don't have a case, and they'd lose their trademark the other way. Of course, they can't very well send you a letter insisting that "AIM" and "gaim" are not confusingly similar, since that wouldn't get into the official record, even if that's the outcome they really want.
That's great, since everyone on /. is always ready to give their $0.02 ;-)
right, except GAIM wasn't the only one that got the letter. I develop the program formely known as jaim and I got it too.
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I develop jaim (now JAM) at http://aerob.net/jam/ and I just caved to AOL and changed the name. I don't have time to fight them or anything, and I think the software is more important than the name. (even so, the jam page isn't even fully updated yet)
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June 18, 2001
/. boys!)
VIA E-MAIL
Joshua Harding
vaxgeek
RE: Notice of Infringement
Dear Mr. Harding:
We represent America Online, Inc. (AOL), with respect to its intellectual property matters. Our client is the owner of federal Registration Nos. 2,423,368 and 2,423,367 for its mark AIM (hereinafter, the AIM Mark) and operates the most widely-used interactive online service in the world. Our client has made extensive use of its AIM Mark in interstate and international commerce in connection with the advertising, promotion, and sale of its Internet and computer-related goods and services. Due to our clients widespread use, advertising, and extensive marketing, its AIM Mark has become very famous and many consumers recognize the mark as a distinctive symbol of our clients goodwill. Our client also uses the mark AIM.COM in connection with providing information via computer networks. As a result, consumers associate the mark AIM, when used in a software name or internet related service, with our clients high quality products and services. It has come to our attention that you are distributing an online communication software product using the AIM Mark at several web sites. Our client is concerned that your unauthorized use of its famous AIM Mark in this manner is likely to confuse consumers and, in addition, dilutes the distinctive qualities of the AIM Mark. We assume you similarly do not wish to mislead consumers and we request that you discontinue use of any name(s) that incorporate our client's marks, or marks confusingly similar to them. Additionally, the proprietary software used to operate the AIM service is owned solely by AOL and unauthorized distribution of our client's software, or derivatives thereof, is strictly prohibited. Our client would like to resolve this matter amicably and has asked that we contact you to confirm that you will cease using any names or marks that infringe upon the AIM Mark. We also ask that you contact us to discuss the possible copyright issues set forth above. We hope you appreciate AOL's interest in protecting its valuable intellectual property and we ask that you respond to this letter by June 29, 2001. We look forward to hearing from you and hope to resolve this matter promptly.
James R. Davis, II
202/857-6169
davisr@arentfox.com
Arent Fox Kintner Plotkin & Kahn, PLLC
1050 Connecticut Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20036-5339
Phone 202/857-6000
Fax 202/857-6395
www.arentfox.com
(ps. i submitted this last week. little (rejected) after it, thanks
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If you want to use paypal for donating to the gaim defense fund, use "paypal@linux-support.net" as the recipient. All funds donated here will go to the defense, and anything left over if we are unable to pursue the defense will be refunded as much as possible with the paypal system.
People have asked which lawyer it is that we have found to do the letter, and it is Russel Balch of Akridge & Balch who has some experience dealing with legal issues related Free Software.
Why don't you change the name to "Fuck Steve Case with a Red Hot Poker" and see what happens?
Why don't they go after mame as well? I mean, in speech, don't "maim" and "mame" sound the same?
JET Program: see Japan, meet intere
Since I shit I feel that it's only apporiate that I should have the trade mark and since AOL=Shit, my legal team will be contacting them shortly.
This does not sound unreasonable, requesting that you not use thier name. (IMHO)
Mozilla 0.9.2 out
If the decision is to change the name. I think it would be a good idea to send an email to AOL and copy it to all the Linux News sites stating the reasons behind the name change.
Things like as open source developers, writing code for the benefit of everyone not just the people with money... and
This change of name in no way accepts AOL's right to the type of software that GAIM represents and AOL's acceptance of the change of GAIM's name to something otherwise shows AOL's acceptance that the software called GAIM in no way infringes on AOL's software or intellectual property.
I'm no lawyer, but I wouldn't put it past AOL to take the acceptance by all developers of similarly named software to change the name of their software as acceptance that they are in direct competition.
Heh and remember...Be careful out there!
When shit hits the fan get some of these https://youtu.be/pY-GncsZ-UE
I think that there is an aim client with that name - it is a console program. You should be able to find it on freshmeat.
--
Knowledge is, in every country, the surest basis of public happiness.
Well I use the official windows client at home and work, and that client is improving all the time too. Not only that, but I don't have to hold my breath every time I log on hoping that I won't be booted off within 5 minutes!!!
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oops, sorry 'bout that bold, didn't mean to yell!
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Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
With all due respect to your attorney who believes that ""gaim" and others are not confusingly similar to "aim", he's completely wrong.
You are in the same market as AOL, with a similar product to what AOL produces. They are the market leader, and you took their product name and added a single letter to it. I simply cannot imagine a more straightforward example of why trademarks exist.
Consumer confusion is practically guaranteed between "gaim" and "aim" if they both do the same thing.
And yes, even if they registered the trademark later, they were using the mark in interstate trade (and denoting it as a trademark) from the beginning, so the date of the registration is at MOST an inconvenience for AOL's attorneys -- they still own the mark.
It would be one thing if you called it "GIM", because "Instant Messenger" could at least be argued to be a generic term. But to call it anything with "AIM" was just begging for AOL to come knocking...
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Could you create a competing television network to NBC, and call it ABC
Yes, because they are both Broadcasting Companies so it is pretty easy to defend.
GAIM is not a "G" AOL Instant Messenger. The AOL part kinda infringes. If they called themselves GIM, it would be a totally different story.
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Actually they are saying that they can't use the term "instant messaging" also.. they trademarked that as well
And its still just as arguable. I'm not saying to roll over for any trademark -- Instant Messaging could be reasonably argued to simply be a description of what the product does.
But to incorporate the "A" of AIM, when it clearly stands for AOL Instant Messnger, is just asking to be sued for infringement, and there's no hope of winning THAT argument in front of a judge.
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since the trademark was not in force when the second product came out,
The trademark WAS in force -- it was publically marked with a (TM), which is adequate notice for a trademark.
The filing of paperwork to get the (R) doesn't have to precede the use of the mark. in fact, when you file the paperwork for a trademark registration, the first thing they want to know is "has this mark been used in interstate trade? Please provide copies of such examples."
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You are in the same market as AOL, with a similar product to what AOL produces. They are the market leader, and you took their product name and added a single letter to it. I simply cannot imagine a more straightforward example of why trademarks exist.
Wrong. They're not in a "market". They're not trying to compete with AOL. They're not using the name to build on AOL's "goodwill" so they can make money that should be rightfully AOL's
This world depresses me more every day. Here's someone with a completely altruistic motive, making good software that anyone who wants to can download and use, however they want, and yet we have people on this site actually defending a multibillion dollar company who is suing the poor guy cause the name of his program has the same three letters in it.
Do you actually beleive that GAIM is hurting AOL? Do you actually think that this program is causing AOL financial damages? Last I checked their stock was doing just fine thanks.
Hope it makes you feel better to support a megacorp walking all over someone who has to take donations over the Internet just to come up with enough money to pay a lawyer to send a letter. And God fobid we actually look at whether or not AOL is morally right here or not, "intellectual property" laws be dammed.
-WintermuteGrr I submitted a similar story also with Kaim, but is was rejected. Head over to http://kaim.sourceforge.net/ to see the whole trial and tribulation. Pretty much kaim also has to change our name, but I am so fed up with AOL that I might just pull kaim.
Do you changes clothes while making the "chee-chee-cha-cha-choh" transformation sound?
The trademarks were not given approval until 2001-01-23.
Kaim started more then a year before that and Gaim started in 1998.
If a company abandons a trademark for 3 years it is considered lost.
In 1999 AOL sent us a legal letter asking us to remove the aol images and name from our applications, they did not in any way refer to the aim name as one of the things we had to remove. By doing this they showed that they did not have a vested interest in the name which can *void*there trademark application which states that they first started using it back in 97 when it wasn't until recently that they cared about it. Also by not telling us to remove the name then, they were in essence giving us the right to use the name.
Gaim and Kaim can be argued are different enough from the word aim to be ok.
The reason that they sent us the notice of infringement was that they fear that kaim and gaim would "dilute" the aim name, when in fact both of our applications are superior to the official AOL linux client. In that regard you can argue that their clients were diluting the trademark and we would boosting it!
But even with all these things going for us this is a pure case of the big bad company beating up on the loyal fans. Here we had given our sweat and tears making an application to connect with and in the end promoting them. They have made it harder and harder to do this and for me this is the last straw.
As of the next release of Kaim it will have a new name. You can submit name ideas to kaim-developer@lists.sourceforge.net Submit a funny name and a real name. :) For those of you who have
been using Kaim we thank you. Kaims current status is very stable.
Because of that I will be fixing up the last few bugs and releasing the
next version as 1.0 To bad it can't be called Kaim.
The official kde aol client kit is being revamped as a jabber client. The Kaim development team will most likely move over and join the kit team. Kaim has done what Iset out to do. It is a stable aim client with a clean interface. But that was then this is now. Next comes the Jabber client. If you are trying to decide what im server you should go to Iwould recommend jabber. Did you know you can run your own jabber server? Heck jabber is so much better then aim it isn't funny. This probably isn't the end of aol's attack so get out now. Be part of the resistance! Get yourself and others away from aim. Here are two links to jabber sites.
http://www.jabber.org/
http://gabber.sourceforge.net/
Oh and one last thing... Hehe I don't mean to start something, but in a way (not really, but you get what I mean) it is now kinda illegal to have kaim and gaim on your computers. So stick it to the man and where is your mirror?
If you wish to contact me you can do so at icefox@mediaone.net
Do you changes clothes while making the "chee-chee-cha-cha-choh" transformation sound?
Here's a name change that won't "confuse" the end user: FUCKUAOL Sounds foreign enough to not even sound like anything AOL related yet distinctive enough that users will recognize it for what it is. Yeesh! I swear, Corp. American needs to start using it's money in a more productive way. I got it! How about instead of hiring some pimp ass sleazebag in a suit to send threatening letters to programmers that in no WAY can actually threaten your product, you do something useful like help the local shelters in the Dulles, VA area. Oh wait...there's no profit to be made there. Nevermind.
"Klaatu, verada, necktie!" -Ash
they also had aim, and bought icq anyway.
Maybe it's time for an Open Source Instant Messaging protocol, client, and server combo to avoid the whole mess.
You mean like the Jabber/Gaim/jabber.org combination?
http://jabber.org
None of which are acronyms. They're abbreviations. An acronym is a word formed from the initial letters of other words. eg RADAR.
skribe
Blog
This would never work. First of all, the Open Source community is not a big enough demographic group for anyone other than niche companies to market to.
Second, those of us who are in this group don't need (or want) an ISP who does all of the handholding that you are talking about. We want the cheapest/fastest connection to the 'net that we can find. That's all. Just give me a pipe and I'll do the rest. I'll pick and choose the apps that I want to run to utilize the pipe. And if it doesn't exist, I'll create it and you can use it too!
load "linux",8,1
Since it's been ruled that "sucks" isn't a TM diluting mechanism, I nominate "AIMSUCKS" as the new name for any GPL TOC/Oscar client program.
:)
Tho I do reserve the copyright on said name.
I can easily see how people could confuse it with something created by AOL, Inc.
Well son of a bitch. I'm pretty sure AOL would be glad to have their name on gaim. Considering it's everything and more that their client would be if they didn't have to cater to the lowest common denominator.
The only reason they don't heist features from gaim is because of the confusion it would cause amongst their AIM users.
_____
Fight Book Burning
______
everyone was born right-handed, only the greatest overcome it.
______
everyone was born right-handed, only the greatest overcome it.
http://leftorium.net
If AOL bitches about *AIM* then just change the name to AlM (lowercase L in the middle). All of their searches will fail to uncover the product and their lawyers will just pass you by!
</humor>
LOAD "SIG",8,1
LOADING...
READY.
RUN
Linux AOL Instant Messenger? Do you think AOL would find that too similar. Would people think of AOL when they saw "LAIM"? I would.
Gaim came out ages before the official AOL client for Linux. Tik (AOL-sanctioned *nix client) was out before that, though.
He he he.
Execute? [Y/N] _
Personally, I think it ought to go toward Mark's beer fund ;)
-- Ed Carp, N7EKG erc@pobox.com PGP KeyID: 0x0BD32C9B What I'm up to: http://intuitives.mine.nu
GINA - GAIM Is Not AIM
-Lx?
In practice, it remains unclear, at least from dictionary definitions, whether unpronouncable "words" are acronyms or abbreviations. Some distinguish based upon whether the thing is spelled out with periods, such as R.P.M. , while others determine, aparently as you do, by whether the thing is pronounced by its letters or by sounding it out. (Thus, HTML is an abbreviation in that model, but NASDAQ is an acronym.)
But this is not a distinction with a difference. There are myriad acronyms, as you are using the term, that are also strong trademarks. NASDAQ is one, NASCAR is another. Whether or not you consider IBM, NBC, ABC or GE to be acronyms, the point is the same.
Give it up. AIM isn't generic. Not close.
But somehow, that "non-word" got into my dictionary as well. Its fun to make up ad-hoc rules, but they simply don't make for great argument.
Of course, this all remains non-sequitur to the issue of whether or not AIM is generic or unprotectible because it is an acronym. While it might raise interesting questions of mere descriptiveness for use with a rifle scope, tt is both non-generic and protectible, of course, for instant messaging.
While there may be a host of technical issues militating to the contrary, AOL's case for seems fairly strong on the merits. Trademark rights are not created by registration, but by prior use. The purpose of registration is to give constructive (legal presumptive) notice to those who do not have actual notice of a trademark claim. The absence of a registration has no impact when the defendant had actual knowledge of the plaintiff's trademark use. None.
With all due respect to counsel for the defendants, likelihood of confusion appears to be a slam-dunk. The two names have substantially the same appearance, substantially the same sound and suggest essentially the same thing. The prepending of a "G" almost certainly does not change the sense in which the marks are tangibly similar. The two products do essentially the same thing, almost feature for feature.
Of course, likelihood of confusion is an intensely fact-based inquiry, based on many factors, some of which do not clearly militate for a plaintiff's verdict, so an advocate may be able to muddy things up.
I think the strongest argument for the defense is an acquiescence by AOL, permitting the use of GAIM for so long without taking action. Still, that's a tough row to hoe as well.
One thing to seriously consider -- why do we CARE what it is called? Find some pithy name and refer to it as the product that no longer sounds like and is unaffiliated with "AIM," and be done with it.
Name doesn't matter. Regardless of the formal names, for me, "G"-AIM was AIM for Gnome, as "J"-AIM was AIM in Java. I suspect many others took that association away with them as well. Whether or not AOL would win, I think this makes a very attractive case for a jury.
In short, this isn't a front worth fighting. Why let the other guys fight the good fight where they can win? Why not find a middle ground, get AOL to behave by saving them some legal fees and get some useful concessions on the other side.
Sun Tzu suggests fighting where the enemy is weakest. AOL seems to have this one right. Do we?
Clearly AIM is not the genus. Instant Messaging, perhaps, but certainly not AIM.
IANAL but I thought that you could not trademark an acronym.
Of course you can trademark an acronym, sure as you can say International Business Machines, National Broadcasting Corporation, and General Electric.
AIM can stand for so many things, that their argument holds no water. (even when ignoring that the GAIM has been using the same name for two years) Off the top of my head, the alliance between Apple, IBM and Motorola was called the AIM alliance well before AOL Instant Messenger came out.
Right you are! Consider ABC, when used for a television network, a chain of pizzerias or for a chain of liquor stores. The IDENTICAL mark can be used for non-competing goods, and be very strong, even famous (not the legal term of art here) in their respective arenas.
This is the essence of likelihood of confusion. It is not just the designation, but the manner and purposes for which it is used that determines whether there is an infringement.
Of course, a wildly diluted acronym can be weakened by broad, shared use. And some acronyms might well become one and the same with their particular meaning. (A.I. for artificial intelligence, perhaps; maybe even IM for instant messaging.)
AIM does have one other interesting attribute, however -- it's a common english word.
And one that would be generic for pie or flavors of fruit roll-ups. However, for computers, or for records, Apple is arbitrary and as strong as Xerox.
If I remember from high school, this alone limits the scope of the protection granted by the trademark.
Only if it describes the underlying goods and services. Even then, the mark is registrable and protectable if it has attained "acquired distinctiveness." Examples of acquired distinctiveness are "International Business Machines" and "Steak & Ale"
GNUIM, pronounced, "newm", perhaps? Or GNU-IM and go for the homonym acryonym.
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Am I the only one who thinks Microsoft is a misnomer? Perhaps Macrosoft would be a better fit?
Is gaimdefense@marko.net Paypal-able? If not, make it so and we shall contribute in small doses.
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Am I the only one who thinks Microsoft is a misnomer? Perhaps Macrosoft would be a better fit?
GAIM was started out as an instant messaging client for Linux that allowed access to AIM. In other words, the whole intent of the name is to link it to AIM. Now, it may have changed it's goal to include other IM protocols, but that doesn't change the infringement. GAIM is still linked to AIM. It is also still easy to confuse the two. When I see GAIM, and I know we're talking about IM, I think "GNU AOL Instant Messanger". I see AOL. I am likely to be inclined (if I wasn't reading this) to believe that GAIM was from AOL.
Also, note that the trademark doesn't have to be registered to be enforceable either. Now AIM is a descriptive mark (IMO), so it is really only protected if the pulic associates AIM with AOL. I think that this relation is obvious (AIM=AOL IM).
Clue.com doesn't have that confusion because it operates in an entirely different market. Different market, no confusion.
They are free to attempt to defend themselves against the suit, but I feel it is pretty clear that AOL is correct.
Jason PollockFrom the GAIM 0.8.0 README file, first line... (the net is a wonderfull thing):
Sounds like the confusion is deliberate to me.
Jason PollockComment removed based on user account deletion
Wow, it's like they actually want you to come up with a unique name for your project. Bastards!
How we know is more important than what we know.
I'm not going to say anything. I'm going to sit in my chair and watch them put up an argument. Then I'm going to say to the judge "you're honour, everything they have said here today has been true but it is also wrong. You have a choice, choose what is right." And when the judge chooses what is wrong, I want to know, how much am I up for? Really, that's going to be up to the judge to decide and I think he is going to ask some questions like "How long did it take you to write this software?" and "Why did you spend that much time to make something you give away for free?" and those are the questions I'm going to answer.
How we know is more important than what we know.
Cool. Makes that vow of poverty all the more attractive now doesn't it?
How we know is more important than what we know.
While many people tell you: "fight fight fight" it is easy to say when you are not getting a second mortgage to ensure the $100k you forked out in legal fees to date are not lost. If however, you cannot get free help or have just as deep a pocket?sometimes be right doesn't help.
Hmm.. Are you speaking from experience or what? Really, if I just tell AOL to fuck off and they drag me into court and I do not willingly fork any of my money over to lawyers, what am I going to get hit by? How much is it going to cost me to be passive resistant? It would appear to me that it is *I* who are making *them* spend money. People talk about "dragging out" a court case until one of the parties goes broke. How exactly do you do this? There's so much rumor about court cases, just how many of you people have ever been to court?
How we know is more important than what we know.
If Arent Fox was hired by the MPAA, they would start threatening people who mentioned DeCSS.
Here is the list from the Acronym Finder:
AOL Instant Messenger , Abductory Inductive Mechanism , Abrams Integrated Management , Abridged Index Medicus , Accunet Information Manager (AT&T) , Accuracy In Media , Acquisition Information Management , Action Item Master , Active Inert Missile , Ada Interactive Monitor , Adaptive Internetwork Management (Ungerman Bass) , Administrators In Medicine , Advanced Idea Mechanics , Advanced Industrial Management , Advanced Informatics in Medicine , Advanced Information Management , Advanced Integrated Multiplex , Advanced Integration Module (Cisco) , Advanced Inventory Management (Telco Research) , Advanced Isolation Methods , Advanced ISR Management , "Adventures In Ministry, Inc. ", Aeronautical Information Manual , "Aether Intelligent Messaging (Aether Systems, Inc.) ", Africa Inland Mission , African Index Medicus , AFSATCOM IEMATS Microprocessor , Aid to Injured Motorcyclists (legal organization) , Air Inflation Module , Air Intercept Missile , Airborne Intercept Missile , Airlift Import Manager , Airman Information Manual , Alarm Indication Message (Lucent) , Alarm Interface Module (Telabs) , Alternate Input Method (OS/2) , Alternative Investment Market , Ambulatory Information Management Association , American Indian Movement , American Institute of Management , Amplitude Inter-Modulation distortion , Analog Input Module , Antenna Interface Module , "Apple, IBM and Motorola ", Application and Interface Module (Com21 cable modem) , Application Interpreted Model , Armored-Infantry-Mechanized , Army Information Management , Artificial Intelligence in Medicine (journal) , Artificial Intelligence Markets , ASAS Interface Module , Asian Institute of Management (Manila) , Associate In Management , Associate In Ministry , Association for Information Management , Association for Integrative Medicine , Association for Interactive Media , Association française pour les applications de l'Informatique à la Médecine , ATC Initiatives & Measures , ATM Internet Mode , ATM Inverse Multiplexer (ATMF) , Auroral Ionospheric Mapper , Australian Institute of Management , Authoring Instructional Material , Authorizing Instructional Media , Automated Information Management , Automated In-line Mailer , Automated Inserting Machine , Automatic Identification Manufacturers , Automatic Insert Machine , and Automatic Interrupting Motor-operated
But wouldn't you really rather have a piece of software named "FAOL" (pronounced "foul") and standing for... well, you figger it out.
Best of luck, and I hope you come through this with no problems.
ReadyFire
That way, they can't bitch that you included their three precious letters...
(and if you put those letters in the middle, it reminds us of the last three words these weasily lawyers who abuse IP law should ever hear J/K ... )
--- Generation X: The first generation to have SIG lines inferior to their parents... ---
Newsbreak: AOL is now suing all world militaries that use the phrase, "Ready, AIM, Fire!", because it is strikingly similar to their AIM chat program. AOL also states that firing squads confuse their targets, the targets think they are going to be chatting with some online friends, then are riddled with bullets.
--
microsoft, it's what's for dinner
bq--3b7y4vyll6xi5x2rnrj7q.com
it's a sig, wtf?
500/40,000=1/80=.0125
This is a toughy but I am pretty sure that it is really $0.0125 per user.
change the name to "gnaime" or "gnaim"? You could even take an audio cut from American Pie....I would love it if every time I logged onto AOL's IM service, I heard "Say my gnaim, bitch!" upon connecting.
Without a doubt the name AOL is confusingly similar to the name AreOLa, of which most of us have had two for much longer than AOLs existence.
The nippled of the world, should not stand for this blatant abuse of prior art!
kink (Kink Is Not Kaim), or kinky
kuagmire (Kick Uselss AOL's Glutumus Maximus In the Rear End)
kimchi (KDE Instant Messaging Client for Hire on the Internet)
[TMB]
Someone would create a ISP company similar to AOL, but with obvious differences. Have windows & Linux clients for the end user, and have all the server side stuff one a Linux platform. This would be great especially if the client/server software was GPLed. It would just need to be easy to understand/use, provide similar features (because all of the big guys provide the same things {AOL, Prodiy, et. al.}), and be reliable. Someone could really make a killing if they got it right, and especially if they managed to get the support of the Open Source community.
Alas, time to stop day dreaming....
At the next eco-hypocrisy-meeting, count the private jets used to get to the meeting. Should be interesting to see that
On one side, you have high priced lawyers. And on the other, since you don't want to "fork any of your money to lawyers" you represent yourselft. (And you would be working normally instead of sitting in court for 3 weeks, right? Wouldn't that cost you?) They're going to have at least some well-formed arguemnt, they're going to quote some previous cases, and you're going to quote "fuck you guys!"
You're going to lose. The court is going to force you to change the damn name.
Have I ever been to court? Only the court of common sense.
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python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
You mean to tell me that someone on this damn site thinks for themselves, instead of spitting out the same open-everything, anti-corporatism, "fuck steve case" bull shit? I'm amazed and surprised.
GAIM is not similar to AIM? Get a fucking clue people.
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python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
Amen. How about GNA ("Gna's Not AIM")?
But seriously. How about gM, for "gnu messenger?" I don't think General Motors could sue, because your client is probably not easy to confuse with a car :)
---
In light of this, perhaps the following names could be "confusingly similar" to well-known tradmarks:
Wal*Fart compared to Wal*Mart
Sysco compared to Cisco
IBN compared to IBM
Wintel compared to Intel
Microslop compared to Microsoft
Oh, and any router with the word "gateway" in its hostname must be changed!
Granted, *most* of the sites mentioned are backed by big businesses with even bigger legal budgets so they can get away with it, but still....
(P.S.--It seems to me that "well-known" and "confusingly similar" are mutually exclusive)
Give me my freedom, and I'll take care of my own security, thank you.
These are referred to as "SMACKS!". The companies know most developers and small companies would rather switch than spend money to fight. The intent is to get you and anyone like you to go away for the price of an on-staff attorney.
Would they win in court? Hard to tell this is a very disputed area of law, and the courts are not helping. (IANAL) They can make TM claims, and may win, so they have little to lose. If nothing he may be able to claim GAIM as copyrighted material. Public domain however, does put that on short leash, at least in the case of violations.
If you have the money, desire, or can get the ACLU, FSF, etc. to hear your case you may wish to fight as long as they will. AOL, like Microsoft, GM, etc., has deep pockets and a long outlook on things. This could be tied up for years. You can have fun with it or call it a day and give it a different name.
While many people tell you: "fight fight fight" it is easy to say when you are not getting a second mortgage to ensure the $100k you forked out in legal fees to date are not lost. If however, you cannot get free help or have just as deep a pocket...sometimes be right doesn't help.
Life is not fair, but consider the alternative.
At $.13 per user to get that letter written, I don't think it's *THAT* much to ask for from the GAIM community. Anyone want to do the $/man-hour computations?
- Sometimes you're the pidgeon, sometimes you're the statue.
To wit, ICQBot. They're giving its maintainer some hassle about dilution of brand blah blah blah, when it's obvious to all (and made explicitly clear on the front page) that this is a user-made add-on for ICQ and in no way affiliated with anyone.
Does dilution of brand even make sense anymore? Is it even remotely possible to prove that if Joe User is looking for AIM, he's going to go to gaim.sourceforge.net instead of aim.com? Will Jane Newbie go looking for ICQ at icqbot.net, see the big fat notice saying that ICQ isn't here, we're not affiliated with them, just fans of the software, continue on in and somehow suck revenue from AOL?
This tripe is right up there with software patents.
Also, I think I'm going to claim ownership on oxygen. I've got a bunch of plants and they're making some, so it stands to reason that you're inhaling some of my hard-earned oxygen. Cease and desist or my lawyers will be paying you a visit.
Easy does it!
This comment has been submitted already, 276865 hours , 59 minutes ago. No need to try again.
rename it to MIA or in the HAL tradition, BJN
--- even the safest course is fraught with peril
Hey where are the spammers when ya need em. It's not like I am a big supporter of spam and all, but why not spam all the aol people with info about how aol is bullying people like this. Come on just cause they all flock like lemmings cause of commericials saying look how many poeple use Aol we rock I mean they need to know how Aol is really just bunch of dorks bullying. :)
To Butthole Internet Provider... er? What's that? Bob the Lawyer tells me that'd still be confusingly similar. Sorry!
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Who are they going to sue next? Johnson and Johnson for their AIM Toothpaste? Or should J&J be suing AOL instead?
I would point out the case Brookfield v. West Coast Entertainment.
http://www.cyberights.com/html/Cases/cases.html
name disputes are ugly.
jinkusu
Damn good point. Jabber would be the logical choice, with transports available to make migration less painful.
"That old saw about the early bird just goes to show that the worm should have stayed in bed."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
While I applaud your good sense in this quote, I still have to do so reservedly. What AOL is doing here is harrassment, and changing the name will merely give them a green light to continue harrassment as an effective tactic.
If a good legal team that can defend them at minimal cost to the project cannot be found, then your advice is probably the best. On the other hand, what they are doing now, seeking to find such a defense team if at all possible, is definately called for as well. No need for them to cave immediately. Far better to put out the word as far and as fast as possible as to what is happening, and solicit aid. There are many possible ways it could be forthcoming. If it is not, they can still change their name next week...
"That old saw about the early bird just goes to show that the worm should have stayed in bed."
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
so call it 641/\/\ and be l33t at the same time you avoid the AOL trained monkeys.
Yes, but GAIM has been around for 3 years or so and AOL didn't bother to send them a nice letter until now. I'd say they lost the copyright by not actively defending it. It can even be shown that AOL knew of GAIM's existance 2 years ago when they asked that AOL and the logo be removed from GAIM's website.
If I were a lawyer, I'd take up GAIM's cause.. it seem rather simple.
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Do you even know anything about perl? -- AC Replying to Tom Christiansen post.
---
"This message is composed of 100% recycled electrons."
Actually they are saying that they can't use the term "instant messaging" also.. they trademarked that as well.
--
Free Mac Mini
But then you still have problems with AOL. They also market a product known as "Netscape Instant Messanger" (NIM) so you would go from a "confusingly similar" name of one AOL product to another.
-
I immedialty confused GAIM with AIM the brand of toothpaste. Anybody else remember the commercials where the kids say EEEEEEE? I wonder if they're gonna sue too.
just change the fricking name. is it really that damn important what we call it? Hell I don't even invoke it using the name. I use this silly little icon. boop and it works. I never even think about the name. We're all rather keyed in here. change the name and let us know on slashdot or any other well read site and no problem i know what program to download when its updated. AOL shuts up and we move on. I really don't think badgering one of the biggest companies in the world will do us any good. remember that we use their technology without ever paying them for it. I don't recal seeing ads in GAIM. I know lets bitch at AOL some more so they get real good and pissed and decide to close us off entirely from the TOC network. which they might do anyway. I'm certain they'd like to. Change the name. take a slashdot poll on what it should be called and end the madness of righteous indignation so prevalent in OSS.
-
Until I read this Salon article posted today about Internet centralization (http://salon.com/tech/feature/2001/06/26/locking_ up_the_web/index.html for those who are sick of goatse.cx), and realized that I should do whatever I can to help the "little guy".
We need to support people running independent projects and work-alikes so that the entire breed does not die out before the net restabilizes. Unfortunately I posted this too late for anyone to mod it up so people can read it... blargh.
"He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil."
Send five bucks to the paypal address. I am and you should, too.
"He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil."
you forgot the number one rule when signing contracts (especially contracts drafted by lawyers): read the small print. If GAIM belonged to Pre-Paid Legal, or anything like it, they'd be covered for exactly one letter to be written and a few hours of consultation. Even that's debatable (I've got a friend who's suing them for breach of contract, how's that for irony?) So do you pay $300+ a year for a service that's not worth anything other than writing up a will or similar rare times?
How about www.AIMsucks.com :)
Say what? What the hell does AOL have to do wih GAIM other that a common protocol?
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro- Dr. Hunter S. Thompson
They already have Linux AIM client, why would AOL want another one?
What makes GAIM more confusing then say GAIMINAIM (GAIM Is Not AIM)? Both contain AIM, the latter even contains it twice for good measure!
If it comes down to it (and I hope it doesn't) why not just name it Aim? It's an english word, there should* be no way for AOL to stop you from using an english word!! Take AIM at AOL might not be a bad name idea either.
* - yes I know this is not the case, the corperations always win. Too bad our society is in such a state of affairs that you can't even speak plain english without trademark violation.
The problem isn't that GAIM exists, but the name of the client. Come on, it's an IM client with one letter difference? No way in hell he'd win. Just change the name. Who cares what the name is as long as it works.
segfaulteq@home.com
With 40k users, $5/user and only 1/4 helping out, that would still yield 50k. Perhaps that would help cover the legal costs. (note: I don't use any instant messanger and would probably not support! :-) )
main(i){(10-putchar(((25208>>3*(i+=3))&7)+(i ?i-4?100:65:10)))?main(i-4):i;}
I've been a happy user of Gaim for a long time. I chipped in with the paypal stuff. -Tim
GAIM actually stands for "GNU Any Instant Messenger" - Not, Gtk AOL Instant Messenger.
IM is also owned by AOL.
We represent America Online, Inc. ("AOL"), with respect to its intellectual property matters. Our client is the owner of federal Registration Nos. 2,423,368 and 2,423,367 for its mark AIM (hereinafter, the "AIM Mark") and operates the most widely-used interactive online service in the world. Our client has made extensive use of its AIM Mark in interstate and international commerce.
Your use of the name "Target" and the giant red and white target logo may cause considerable confusion with the AIM Mark, as a target is something at which one takes aim. In order to avoid such confusion and to avoid infringing the AIM Mark, you must immediately cease and desist from using such a confusing name and logo or immediately turn over all assets to AOL. If you don't, AOL will buy you just like Time-Warner.
Fight Spammers!
It is my understanding that under trademark dilution and violation, that only applies to commercial applications and use. Since GAIM, LAIM, PAIM, etc. is not commercial, then the trademark laws could not apply.
Fight Spammers!
We respectfully ask that you change your name as it is confusingly similar to our trademark of "Marks and Spencers".
May we also remind you that using the "Mark"s and "Spencer"s trademark in meta tags can also be construed as infringement.
Thank You
Marks and Spencers.
Well, it could happen?
try to make ends meet, you're a slave to money, then you die
Could you create a competing television network to NBC, and call it ABC?
Analogies suck.
...when large mergers produce oversized corporations that, in the past, would have easily been broken into pieces by anti-trust laws. Obviously, corporate influence is too powerful on today's government, so the government of today doesn't care any more about large corporations, monopolies, etc.
The end of the world will come when AOLTW merges with Microsoft.
---
DOOR!!
I pledge allegiance to the flag...
of the Corporate States of America...
AOL's probably going to have to talk to the Frobozz Magic Spell Company about this. There's a scroll called AIMFIZ which teleports the caster to someone else's location. Not only does it have "AIM" in it, but it's a prior technology to allow easier communication over distance, too! Something tells me it doesn't stand for AOL Instant Messenger Found In Zork...
While I'm waiting for the right email address, I thought I'd let the /. community tear apppart/improve my draft email to AOL-Time-Warner. I think it's important to come across as a reasonable person who (READER ALERT!: put down the hot coffee/soda now) generally likes AOL-Time-Warner, but is concerned about recent actions.
----
Draft of message to be subitted via AOL feedback and later sent to AOL-Time-Warner's public relations department:
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While I generally have a good opinion of America Online, I would like to express some concerns regarding AOL's instant messaging system.
Market pressures appear to have created a need for an alternative to the current AIM interface to the AIM service. To many people, the AOL AIM client leaves much to be desired. The Linux AOL AIM client, in particular, is widely regarded as innadequate when compared to the alternatives (most noably the GAIM client).
To many people, myself included, it appears that AOL has not attepted to repond to the market demands represented by independent instant messanging clients. It appears that instead, AOL has chosen to use its massive legal resources to intimidate the volunteers producing the alternative clients.
Many users of alternative instant messanging clients do not wish to harm AOL's AIM advertising revenue stream. However, they have a percieved need for features not found on the AOL AIM client.
Many people, particularly in the rapidly growing open source / Linux community, would like to see AOL respond to the market pressures that cause people to use alternative AIM clients. Of particular appeal to GAIM users is an open framework that encourages free extension of the client. The GAIM distribution includes well defined APIs and support files to write "plug ins" in both the Perl and C programming languages. The AOL AIM client does not appear to provide any framework for free extension.
In addition, many people in the open source community would like to see AOL publish the source code ot the AIM client under a free liscence (as defined by the Free Software Foundation). Perhapse AOL feels that it needs to hide the source code for its AIM client in order to preserve the AIM advertising revenue stream. However, the present situation has demonstrated that the source code for a superior instant messanging client is available for others to build on. I personally believe that AOL would see a rapid increase in the functionality of the AIM client on all platforms if the source code for the AIM client was published under a free liscence.
Karl
I'm a slacker? You're the one who waited until now to just sit arround.
Copyright Violation:"theft, piracy"::Anti-Trust Violation:"thermonuclear price terrorism"<-Overly dramatic language.
AOL should go from fighting GAIM to endorsing it. They own Nullsoft that came up with WinAmp and also created gnutella (though they were quick to whisk that away). It's not the end of the world for a huge company to endorse open source software that uses its services.
I know it may not be the perfect solution, but AOL could register "GAIM", give money to the GAIM developer(s) (maybe even hire them). I know that was the basis of their April Fool's joke (very funny - read it at http://gaim.sourceforge.net. If AOL needed to keep something private they could make a proprietary module to load into GAIM (and other open source products that give AOL functionality). The module could have a clause that it could only be used in conjunction with open source products so that MSN couldn't use it.
Yeah, I know, not perfect, but at least then AOL would be sponsoring an excellent Linux client that is far superior to the Java crap they promote.
"The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." --Carl Sagan
myself (gabber rules) but I would donate a dollar to help fight this madness. Now if every user of GAIM and everyone who thinks this is wrong would donate a dollar they just might be able to win this thing. If there is any interest email me and I will look at putting such an effort together.
Cypherpunks: Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics. Those who live by the sword die by the arrow.
We have consulted with an attorney who believes we stand on a strong foot for the following reasons:
"gaim" and others are not confusingly similar to "aim."
Well there you have it. AOL is clearly in the wrong.
I don't find GAIM similar to AIM. The only thing I find similar to AOL is LAME. Is it really worth their intrest to pursue this? I mean, someehere along the line they have to pay lawyers and get little in return except looking like my retarded cousin larry.
Moon Macrosystems. Sun's biggest competitor.
If you don't have anything nice to say, say it often.
If you don't have anything nice to say, say it often.
- Ed the Sock
*aim* are belong to us! "Ready, Aim, I mean, um, POINT, fire!"
------
Random, useless fact: I type in startx entirely with my left hand.
I ask that you please remove the post promptly or I will be forced to take legal action.
Thank you.
it should mean something that a number of those acronyms are for the same class of goods or services: Accunet Information Manager, Adaptive Internetwork Management, Advanced Information Management, Association française pour les applications de l'Informatique à la Médecine, Automated In-line Mailer, Army Information Management, Aether Intelligent Messaging!
If you could get one of these firms onboard to assert prior ownership-by-use of the AIM trademark for that class, they could get the AOL trademark thrown out.
The cheapest way to bring that about would be to encourage AOL to go after them all - one or another could afford the lawyers to put AOL down. If AOL won't go after them, then you have proof they aren't really enforcing the trademark, and it becomes moot. So write AOL insisting on proof that they have pursued all these "violations" of the mark in their class of goods or services.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
In a similar, but not related story, The company that owns the trade mark for Barney the dinosaur has gone after a satire/parody site. Another example of a big bucks company going after a smaller concern.
But the reply is a hoot:
""It has come to the attention of Cybercheeze that you are operating an illegal scam called 'Strong Arm' under the guise of 'Intellectual Property'. We have reviewed your letter and found that it not only is about as intellectual as the purple quivering mass of gyrating goo you call Barney, but that it also is demeaning to everyone that visits our website and reads this worthless attempt and scare tactic."
spunky attitude. I like it. Gaim should set up a defense fund or something.
heck someone should set up an open source defense fund. but that would require folks to be orgainzed or something.
Check out the Vinny the Vampire comic strip
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
...of the fact that the world has way too many lawyers with WAY too much free time on their hands...
Maybe we need more ambulances for them to chase or something...Ones with broken tail lights so they can't tell when the paramedics have tossed it into reverse. =)
Wow...what a day...finished my degree, confirmed my job, and got the oppertunity to bash lawyers! It just doesn't get any better than this!
I just want to take over the world...Why does that automatically make me EVIL?
I can't send money or add money to my account due to the following error: Unexpected error: 3004. We are currently experiencing heavy traffic to our site. Your request was not completed. Please hit the refresh button on your browser to try again. We apologize for this inconvenience and thank you for your patience. If this problem continues please try again at a later time. Please tell me that every other ./ reader has gone to donate $20 to the GAIM defense! Save GAIM!
I checked gaimdefense@marko.net, but Mark Spencer doesn't seem to be associated with a valid PayPal account. Has anybody else contacted the author about alternative payment plans for the defense fund?
I HATE the AIM client for windows. Personally, I much prefer Trillian. It also replaces the ICQ bloatware, and the growing MSN IM client.
funny munging
What are they going to do, sue us all?
Well, which is cheaper, paying $500 for a lawyer to give you an opinion (which still doesn't mean you've gone to court and won or settled with AOL-- which will require a lot more than $500) or simply changing the name? I'd rather send you money so that you could develop good GPL software rather than waste time and energy in court on the name-- a battle I can only half-heartedly support since it's like rooting for the underdog, but not a battle about which I'd be overly optimistic. Go with GNOME Instant Messenger (GNIM?) and be done with it.
I do not have a signature
Look, I think AOL sucks, but it is their private computer network, right? They can control which clients connect to it.
When we talk about spam, we say "it's my private network, they are trespassing". Well, AOL owns the network - are you trespassing when you use a client they've TOLD you is not welcome?
Maybe it's time for an Open Source Instant Messaging protocol, client, and server combo to avoid the whole mess.
I can easily see how people could confuse it with something created by AOL, Inc.
Why not just avoid the problem by calling your software something like "WhizBang - an AIM compatible client for Linux" or something like that?
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.
Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day.
Teach him to eat and he will fish forever.
How about renaming it "everywhere instant messenger" or "GNU instant messenger"? I've seen quite a bit in /. lately about attempts to trademark generic names, I think AOL would have some trouble trying to prevent others from using the "_blank_ instant messenger" format. How about "VAGINA"... "VAGina Is Not Aim" Nothing like a bunch of 13-year olds downloading VAGINA to chat with their friends.
Why not use the money (and the willing effort of thousands?) to create a media blitz on how yet another small voluntary group has been squashed by big business.
Do not spare putting your point of view that you had prior art into this argument, regardless of whether or not it will stand up in court. Just believe you are in the right.
Do say you cannot afford lawyers but try and get some media company that wants to give these guys a bloody nose the opportunity to stump up the fee.
"GAIM" seems to imply that the software only works with AIM, but this is no longer the case. Similar to Jabber, it now works with TOC, Oscar, Yahoo!, ICQ, MSN, IRC, Jabber, Napster, and Zephyr.
something cheesy along those lines.
Huh? I'm confused....aren't NBC and ABC the same station?? After all, their names are similar!
Goddamit.... if only i had the U.S. Courts so that I could protect myself from my own idiocy....
-- juju
So has anyone out there even heard of Pre-Paid Legal (NYSE:PPD)?
If AOL is going after an individual then the $26 a month plan provides for about 60K worth of lawsuit protection.
Now for the self-serving plug. For more information please see www.info4justice.com Yes: It is a comercial site, Yes: if you get the product I get paid for it.
If you are starting an open source product then take a look. Worst case, it's not for you and it's cost you nothing.
Consider that (I'm guessing) GAIM stands for GNU/General AOL Instant Messenger, shouldn't GAIM at least drop the "A" as in AOL and name it GIM, for example ?
I'm still trying to figure out what people mean by 'social skills' here.
I'm personally waiting for the American Indian Movement to jump all over AOL... they've been using AIM (the acronym) since at least 1973... probably earlier...
Kierthos
Mr. Hu is not a ninja.
Because we know you were not ripping off AOL's service because you were (in fact) ripping off ours, We believe we have first rights to this issue, and would like to sue the gaim project for the grand total of two (2) dollars. We feel that it is important that the gaim project admit that it is guilty of trying to rip off OUR product and not AOL's (whether or not this can have any residual benefit in, oh, say, a defense case against AOL, is entirely besides the point).
nudge nudge NUDGE nudge NUDGE
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Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...
A long long time ago... I wrote a random name generator program (where do you think AndroidCat comes from?) which I called Namer, and released it for free. (Like anyone would pay for it??)
.exe to pnamer.exe or phred.exe.
/. did when $cientology forced them to delete cult secrets: A fairly complete list of critical websites.)
Eventually I got one of those annoying letters from a Texas outfit that had a product called "Namer by Salinon"tm called Namer for short. I sort of caved in, but pointed out (in the docs) that I doubt they had trademarked "Namer by Salinon" in Canada. If they wanted to call their product Namer for short, they should have trademarked that. And that I had been using that name for many years.
But I did cave in, and said that where their trademark was valid, to rename the
I'd suggest giving in to TOYCAAL threats (That's Okay You Can't Afford A Lawyer), but in such a way that causes screams when their victory is mentioned. (Witness what
Mmm... Perhaps it's time to dust Namer off and rewrite in Java. Oh sorry, pnamer or phred.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Most of my friends use Windows, so to talk to me on AIM, they look at ads. If I wasn't here on Linux, they wouldn't use AIM, hence less ad views. Althoug gaimers don't look at ads they ad (sorry) value to the network, enticing more wintelers.
My other car is first.
How is GNU Privacy Guard similar to Pretty Good Privacy? same letters? This means that AOL should sue the government for labelling missing soldiers as MIA, because, as an untrained bystander, I would confuse that for AIM. Oh wait. No.
My other car is first.
But that's AOL for you.
"You know you don't act like a scientist, you're more like a game show host." Dana Barret
Seems stupid enough to me
Damn the man.
...put "protecting" their blessed trademarks above absolutely all else. When my dispute last year with American Express reached the point where I was pissed off enough to register "amexblew.com" and put up an entire website (now archived elsewhere) flaming them, the FIRST thing they did, BEFORE completely rectifying the problem that angered me so much in the first place, was to sic their fucking trademark lawyers on me. Even though you'd have to be damned near illiterate to spell "blue" as "blew" and even though my site was laden with disclaimers and only an ineducable moron incapable of operating a web browser in the first place would ever mistake it for an official AMEX one, they still laid that 'confusingly similar' bullshit on me in the C&D letter.
AOL's case is of similarly nebulous merit, and I hope the GAIM guys stick to their guns. America needs a landmark case where common sense takes on rich corporate stupidity and wins.
~Philly
I wish you the best of luck with this. I use GAIM every day at work and home and the client is improving all the time.
:-/
So much for the hope that AOL would open up AIM to further public development/use.
They do have a Linux AIM client. It sucks but they have it.
...and that's all there is to it.
Linux Messenger
Open Source Messenger (OSM, nice ring to it)
Free Speech (as in, "free, as in speech")
My Greasemonkey scripts for Digg &
today on slashdot, STUPID COMPANY DAY!!!
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www.shockthemonkey.org
Photos.
FWIW - When Northern Telecom became NORTEL, some telcom company in CA called Ortel sued for TM infringment. The judge finally declared that NORTEL could keep the name as long as they included NORTEL Networks under the logo.
Hmm - maybe theres the possibliy of either tweaking the case (which the lawyers seemd to intent on maintaining) or include something like Gnome IM underneath it.
Top Most Bizarre/Disturbing Error Messages
I personally think that the GAIM crew should stop work. Temporarilly. And we all boycott AIM. They clearly have something to gain, otherwise they wouldnt' continue operating.
Also, if the name "gaim" is confusing, why not change it? Really; the name "gaim" isn't all that cool. Seriously, wouldn't you download an AIM client called "FsckAmericaOnline"? :-D
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suwain_2
Ok, seriously, AOL has gone from starting to make me sick, to making me vomit repeatedly. I mean, really, they jump at the opportunity to file a lawsuit. In their eyes, everyone should be using their G-d awful service (lets not go into what that makes me want to do). Seriously though, is this all really necessary? Can't they just shut up and leave the world alone? Personally, I think we would be better off without AOL.
i don't understand really. ;-)), and now that legal stuff... really, all that it's pointless.
;;-))
why is AOL shitting that much with linux clients for linux ? they've only got a kinda pre-release for linux, dated from december, which is completely unusable (well.. it doesn't have a correct accentuated characters handling, making it unusable outside the us).. say it doesn't exist.
first they tried to shit OSS people making good work for them (i'm not sure, but isn't it their interest that more and more people use AIM ?) by disallowing OSCAR connections (leaving only that shitty TOC, that only KIT uses
i've given up using AIM because of all that fuss they did... and i've switched to yahoo (gtkyahoo and kyahoo are indeed good clients, u just have to choose depending on ur favorite desktop), and i find it great for now... just hope that yahoo won't start to shit 'em as well...
moreover, i think that's a strange way for AOL to thank OSS people for the good job they do for their Mozilla/Netscape project (hey, Netscape6 comes with AIM !), and i wonder what could happen to people using Mozilla name or software.. will they be sued as well ?
another question: where did AOL register AIM trademark ? did they do it in all european countries as well ? what happens if we start distributing it from here ?
Maybe we should learn a lesson from this--when making a new software product, resist the temptation to name it with a cute variation on the original product's name.
As a number of people have already pointed out, a trademark need not be already officially registered to be valid. See http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/tac/doc/basic/bas ic_facts.html
I'm saying GAIM's creators should have foreseen that AOL would try to protect its trademark, and should not have used a name that incorporates "AIM" in a way that might make some people think it is a product related to AIM.
This seems to be a simple trademark question. If you can market an instant-messaging product called GAIM, can you also market a new soft drink and call it Coca-Colax? A new Web site called Slash-dots? Gaim's developers should have thought of this when they named the product. Now, they should swallow their pride and rename the thing.
Saying "gaim" is not confusingly similar to "aim" seems a bit of a stretch. I couldn't get very far selling a cola called "Acoca Cola" or "Moca cola", hey, Mocha Cola(TM) My lawyers, my lawyers, a thousand TM's for a lawyer!
It's clear *aim names that are instant messangers, especially those that work with AIM, are taking advantage of AIM's name.
I am for the complete Trantorization of Earth.
--
Caveat Emptor is not a business model.
Set up a trademark "OL" and hire some fancy lawyers to countersue the company with the confusingly similar "AOL"
<-- You are here.
Now if only each of those users would contribute a buck to fund the legal battle...
Has anyone bothered to actually try the official AOL client for Linux? It SUCKS! So developers stepped in and filled the void with the pleasant to use GAIM and others. Instead of wasting so much time and money (if it ever gets to court) on this crap, AOL should just hire some code monkeys and crank out something better. If the Linux client were as good as the windows client, they wouldn't have any problems, since the 3rd party clients are far inferior still (though getting better) to the official version, even though the official one has ads.
I'm an Angry Clam. You would be angry too if you were a ball of snot in a shell.
AOL and the other companies who sic their lawyers on people for this sort of thing are protecting their trademarks. For those who aren't familiar with the US system, it's pretty much use it or lose it. In that sense, this sort of action is defendable.
On the other hand, in a common-sense sort of way, this thing is utterly deplorable. This is the behavior that make me imagine lawyers chasing ambulances or sueing those who can't afford to defend themselves.
The real problem is the messed-up system the US uses for this sort of thing. We have crap like this, and patents on algorithms or obvious ideas. It's almost as if it's designed to keep the rich on top and push the smaller ones to the bottom. Makes me want to move to Canada (well, that and our current President).
to apply for a trademark when you name your project. While that won't stop some company from suing, at least it can strengthen your position. (assuming you have some original name, not some lame rip-off). Of course, you have to protect it as well.
I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
or so it seems ..
.. I decided to
keep it .. I sent back a couple of letters to their lawyers.. it would seem,
atleast for the moment, that they've dropped the attack against me!
Rob sent me an e-mail this morning letting me know of their troubles with AOL, seems like I'm not the only one getting hounded by them!
I've recieved a letter by AOL's lawyers concerning my domain icqbot.net, they said that the name was "confusingly" similar to www.icq.com and they wanted me to turn it over immediately, inclosed in the letter was a transfer form..
Rather than transfer www.icqbot.net into their control, (I had it appraised and it's worth almost $6,000)
I submitted this story to slashdot back when it first happened, I was a little disheartened that it never made it in. But either way, I encourage you to keep up the fight, I sent Rob some advice based on my legal research when they attacked me.
best of luck!
Ps. My software is an AI program for ICQ.
Lonnie A. Waugh www.icqbot.net
OK boys and girls, lets learn a new tern today.... can we say Class Action Lawsuit? If all the companies are together being harassed by AOL/Netscape/Time Warner/ and how many other companies have merged into it by the time I post this, then why not stand your ground and fight together. The enemy of my enemy is my friend! As for me, I have never used the GAIM interface, but only because I didn't know it existed. I will be downloading it tonight if I find it is not already on my machine. I am a great defender of the Free Source project, and I hate to see one or a group of them be pushed around by big business. I will be more than glad to donate to this cause. Please let me know what I can do to help!! email me with suggestions/comments/flames steddyj@hotmail.com
Am I Over-Moderating??
Lawyers? Would this make any impression on the court whatsoever if these guys decide to go to court? If so, how big need the numbers be to be impressive? If this is of any benefit at all, I'll whip up some form and some mysql DB in a bit and put it on a webserver.
That said... the other point of view is that... fighting them (AOL) is not the way I think. The opensource movement is beating M$'s and AOL's at their own game by NOT playing by their rules, by NOT charging money for work, by a FAIRNESS principle that none of these huge corporations will ever understand. What would be better to do than to just say 'sure AOL, we will change the name' and put some nice piece of publicity or something around it?
Then again... there's probably not many /.'s out there that would give 'yetanothercorporatebullystory' the light of day, and if they would, all people would think (probably) "oh... another one".
But in response to the question "Are they similar?" Possibly. They are competing products. Possibly not. When spoken they do not sound the same. GAIM sounds the same as the word "game," as in "let's play a board game," while AIM sounds like the word "aim," as in "be sure to aim first, Jimmy"
I think that AOL will win this suit being the big corporate giant they are despite AIM being marked after GAIM's release. AOL might use the golf vs egolf case as a reference.
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
AOL, TimeWarner, and Microshaft = ATM ATM= Automatically Transmitted Messages TM that one unless TM is already TM'd :P
when I first saw AIM in the headlines, the first thing I thought of was the toothpaste company... (are they still around?) Maybe they should sue AOL, because if I remember correctly, AIM was not even registered as an acronym by AOL. Somebody will correct me if I'm wrong I'm sure...
Saying "gaim" is not confusingly similar to "aim" seems a bit of a stretch. I couldn't get very far selling a cola called "Acoca Cola" or "Moca cola", hey, Mocha Cola(TM) My lawyers, my lawyers, a thousand TM's for a lawyer! Hmm... I still don't think its confusing. If it is confusing to you, then perhaps you don't know enough about the product, in which case, it wouldn't matter, because if you don't know much about it, why is that company entitled to your business? Thats like me going out and buying a Hunda Maccord. If I didn't know the difference between a Hunda Maccord and a Honda Accord, then Honda didn't do their job, and their lost business is their own fault. Go to LA and look at some of the stores. Look at all the misspelled varieties. Usually there are only two reasons to buy the misspelled variety... 1.) They are cheap, and you don't care. 2.) You are in it for the "hype" but didn't really know anything about the said company, and mistakenly bought this, thinking you would be cool ;) In this case, said company didn't advertise very well, as you didn't know anything about them, just the fact that everybody likes them ;)
You know, it just pisses me off...Because our community does not charge for software, we don't have a team of lawyers to put out these fires. If we wanted to have lawyers on retainer, we would have to charge for software. These companies that do have pay software/services, know they can use that fact against us. They try to bring us to their level, and since they've been competing at the level much longer they have a big advantage. Will they always win?...No, but it makes it a lot harder for us to... What can we do about it, I'm not sure...but its something to think about...
"Karma can only be portioned out by the cosmos." -Homer Simpson