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I remember getting a call from the, er, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and we watched the building collapse.

But hey...you don't have to take my word for it...watch it for yourself.

It caught on fire, burned from the inside out, and collapsed.

If that in fact is true, than it's the third steel-framed building to ever collapse from fire, the first two being WTC 1 and 2. The simple fact is: steel-framed buildings don't collapse from fire. Period. There have been several instances of steel skyscrapers on fire, many burning far hotter for far longer than any fire on 9/11. Yet, none of these buildings have collapsed. NOT ONE. I defy you to find one other example of a steel-framed building collapsing from fire....just one.

If they're "on record," then link to it. Who are these "experts," and how exactly did they acquire their "expert" knowledge on the dynamics of airliner strikes on large skyscrapers, given that it's never happened before?

The towers were designed to constantly withstand wind pressures equal to 30 times the energy of the airliner impacts. They were also specifically designed to withstand impacts from passenger jets (link here).

As for it never happening before, that's simply not true. In July of 1945 a B-52 bomber, lost in heavy fog, crashed into the Empire State Building. Over a million dollars in damage (and those were 1945 dollars), and several casualties. But the building was repaired and still stands today.

Finally, here's a link to a page that discusses the gag order slapped on the FDNY. From the article:

FDNY fire fighters remain under a gag order (Rodriguezvs-1.Bush.pdf, p. 10) to not discuss the explosions they heard, felt and saw. FAA personnel are also under a 9/11 gag order.

With respect to your crazytalk regarding the attack on the Pentagon, you demonstrate the classic flaws of a conspiracy theorist.

And now we go right back to the ad homenims. So far, you're following the administration's disinformation playbook page by page.

For example, evidence supporting the truth is overwhelming, undeniable, and readily available. If there really was no "Flight 77", then what do you make of this list of victims? The passengers and crew of American Airlines Flight 77? Are these fake names? Why not call up some of the family members and see if these people actually existed? Google them. Locate addresses and co-workers. Where did all these people go, if Flight 77 didn't hit the Pentagon? Are all their family members in on the conspiracy, and perpetuating a lie?

I just love it when people th

Actually, the building you are referring to was WTC 7, and Larry Silverstein, the owner of the WTC complex, admitted in a PBS interview shortly after 9/11 that he ordered the building to be 'pulled'. More details can be found here.

Wow, what an insightful, well-researched, and thought-provoking website. I went to the main page to see what other conspiracies had been covered up by the US government, and once I scrolled past the obviously legitimate banner ads for Ephedra, Viagra, and penny stocks, I found all sorts of op-ed diatribes based on shaky and unverifiable claims.

WTC 7 was not slated for demolition. It was not wired with explosives. It caught on fire, burned from the inside out, and collapsed. TLC (a reputable media outlet, unlike the whacko nutjob websites that come up with you search for "WTC 7 collapse") mentioned the collapse of WTC 7 in their documentary about why the towers collapsed. Officials were surprised and disturbed that buildling 7 collapsed, seemingly on its own, and learned a lot from the experience. The events revealed that conventional construction wisdom wasn't as reliable as builders had assumed, and they learned principles which they used to improve the safety of other buildings.

If, as you and all these other Area-51 crazies assert, WTC 7 was deliberately razed, you haven't answered "why?" I also love some of the other peer links that come up when "researching" your claims, like this gem: "Come on folks, no planes hit the World Trade Center on 9/11/01."

Demolition experts immediately went on record as saying that such a collapse as a result of an airliner strike was flatly impossible,

If they're "on record," then link to it. Who are these "experts," and how exactly did they acquire their "expert" knowledge on the dynamics of airliner strikes on large skyscrapers, given that it's never happened before?

With respect to your crazytalk regarding the attack on the Pentagon, you demonstrate the classic flaws of a conspiracy theorist. That is, you ask the wrong questions, make the wrong assumptions, and ignore obvious counter evidence.

For example, evidence supporting the truth is overwhelming, undeniable, and readily available. If there really was no "Flight 77", then what do you make of this list of victims? The passengers and crew of American Airlines Flight 77? Are these fake names? Why not call up some of the family members and see if these people actually existed? Google them. Locate addresses and co-workers. Where did all these people go, if Flight 77 didn't hit the Pentagon? Are all their family members in on the conspiracy, and perpetuating a lie?

Also, simply research the flight plans for that day. FAA flight plans are public record. See if Flight 77 actually existed. Or dig up the tax records for American Airlines and see if they actually owned a 757 with the registration number matching the one that "allegedly" hit the Pentagon. Where did that massive airplane go, if not the Pentagon?

As for your ridiculous claims that there was no fire, there most certainly and obviously was. It penetrated several layers deep into the rings of the Pentagon. Media and photographers could only photograph the outside. Or are you surprised that large amounts of media members were denied access to the flaming, chaotic top-secret inner rings of the Pentagon in the middle of a massive terrorist attack on the US?

Finally, let me also address this assumption that many people make regarding impact holes. People seem to think that an airplane should punch right through walls. The truth is, airplanes are actually light, fragile tubes of thin metal. Take a piece of paper and roll it up like a paper towel tube. Now smash it down onto the top of your desk. Did it go through? Did it even lea

How about an explanation of htf WTC 4 collapsed when it WAS NOT HIT AT ALL!?!

Actually, the building you are referring to was WTC 7, and Larry Silverstein, the owner of the WTC complex, admitted in a PBS interview shortly after 9/11 that he ordered the building to be 'pulled' ('pulled' is industry jargon for executing a controlled demolition). More details can be found here.

'Pulling' a large building like WTC 7, so that the demolished remains fall neatly onto its own footprint without damaging neighboring structures is very complex and takes weeks of inspections and planning. For WTC 7 to have been 'pulled', the explosive charges must have been put in place far in advance of 9/11. Why was WTC 7 wired to blow that morning?

If you watch a video of WTC 7 falling, you see that it collapses neatly onto its own footprint, at nearly free fall speed. This is exactly how WTC 1 and 2 collapsed as well...suddenly collapsing so fast that they were falling at the same rate as detached debris in free-fall next to them, and falling neatly onto their own footprints, so that buildings as close as 47 feet only received minor damage. Demolition experts immediately went on record as saying that such a collapse as a result of an airliner strike was flatly impossible, and that the only explanation could be explosives in the building. Immediately after, these people were muzzled by the current administration unter the pretense of National Security.

the almost immediate gravelling of the pentagon lawn...

The Pentagon lawn had to be gravelled immediately to hide what should have been there, but wasn't...namely: damage from the underbelly of a 757. Shots of the Pentagon taken immediately after the attack show a completely unblemished lawn, as well as wire spools untouched, in front of a 15-foot wide hole in the side of the building. Discount for just a moment that a) the hole is far too small to have been caused by a jet airliner, b) there is no damage from wing sections, engines, or tail sections striking the building, c) contrary to what was seen at the WTC attacks, there, was almost no fire damage whatsoever, and d) No wing sections, tail sections, engines, or bodies of the passengers of the supposed 757 were ever found, the hole was actually too low for the airliner to have made it at all. For the nose to have struck the building at the site of the hole, its belly would have had to have been 10 feet under the ground at the time. Naturally, you might think this would have caused significant damage to the Pentagon lawn, but again, early pictures show that the only damage to the lawn was caused by the wheels of the fire engines. This alone puts the lie to their story...and this is why that gravel had to be put down so fast. More details can be found here.

The more you watch the footage of 9/11, the more obvious the lies become. But don't take my word for it...do your own research.

They knew iraq wanted to invade, they told them, they asked them

" can we invade ? its really ours, kuwait is stealing our oil "

and usa lady APril said, "sure we have no interests, we dont care"

http://members.aol.com/bblum6/iraq2.htm

25 July: Saddam Hussein was personally told by the US
ambassador to Iraq, April Glaspie, in a now-famous remark, that
"We have no opinion on the Arab-Arab conflicts, like your border
disagreement with Kuwait." But she then went on to tell the
Iraqi leader that she was concerned about his massive troop
deployment on the Kuwaiti border in the context of his
government's having branded Kuwait's actions as "parallel to
military aggression".{11}

Transcript here - http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE5/april.h tml

Photo here - http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/8/8a /Saddam_anf_April_.jpg

Shes recently retired, but will not speak against her department or the govt. Basicly a suck-up.

So the real people behind the so called bad CIA decisions are the people in power, James Baker, Bush, and
good old Rumfseld and the rest of the NEOCONS.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osama_dead.html So please, stop asking. This robot's not going to help find him unless it can dig.

-FL

There were MULTIPLE surveillance cameras pointing directly at the point of impact (this is discussed in detail in various films and all over the internet). Immediately following the "attack," these tapes were confiscated by the FBI. They have since carefully selected 5 frames from one of the videos to release.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/pentagon_photos_ 911.html

5 frames. I don't see an airplane in any one of those frames. Actually, I didn't see an airplane after the "attack."

We are engaged in a huge debate, not over the fact that the control of our nation's ports has been turned over to foreign governments in the first place

You're right. It's a real disgrace.

Especially now that we know that all 9/11 airports were serviced by one Israeli-owned company.

... and now he's dead, and has been for a while. Take good notice as to when the "tapes" appear - it's always when the media at home needs to concentrate at something else besides the administration - and scare US citizens with "boo terrorists" into accepting something new and Orwellian.

Actually, I am ignorant. That's why I'm asking questions. I am curious as to the true nature of many fantastic events. Those questions are considered unpatriotic, "uneducated" and "annoying," but I don't care. I want to know the truth, and I will keep asking questions until I know it.

Since you're obviously so smart, perhaps you can help me. Please answer me this: Why did WTC Building 7 collapse? It was not hit by an airplane and it had only small fires. Larry Silverstein, lease-holder for the whole WTC complex, said on PBS that they decided to "pull" the building. Can you please explain how they managed to arrange a controlled demolition while it was still on fire, on 9/11.

Please let me know. I am really curious.

Mods: Parent post is flamebait and offtopic. If this post is modded offtopic then the parent post should be modded the same.

You could do without importing oil, or without having imported it for the past century?

Absolutely- without cheap oil, we'd just have a much quicker adoption of alternative native renewable fuels- such as cellulose ethanol (million of sustainable board feet of wood from Pacific Northwest forests), vegetable oil biofuels, recycled turkey guts, etc. The original two internal combustion engines (Diesel and Ford) ran on biofuels (Vegetable Oil and Ethanol), as did the original two external combustion engines (Steam and Sterling, both of which run just fine on wood). Liquified coal can replace the rest of what we need over what we produce ourselves. It's time America became self-sufficient again, in fact, it's begining to look vital to our national security to end the oil trade once and for all- no matter who you think took the towers down, it was definately related, at least tangentially, to our corrupt trade practices and control of oil in the Middle East (If you believe the official story, then bin Laden attacked us because of our sending troops to Saudi Arabia to protect the oil against Saddam Hussien. If you believe the conspiracy theorists, we faked the attack so that we would begin a war against Islam in general and/or bin Laden and Saddam Hussien in specific, to protect the Royal House of Saud and thus our access to Mideast Oil in general.) Either way, oil trade has destabilized our peace- and making that trade illegal and finding other replacements for it should be the primary priority in the War On Terror.

It's all just a matter of thinking against the gain- that is, thinking in terms of what is best for the country and citizens as opposed to what is best for profit.

The president of Diebold said he would deliver the votes to Bush. And he did.

Fortunately, today comes more bad news for the Democrats. Their long awaited investigation into voter fraud found no evidence of voter fraud by the GOP and their deranged poster boy, Dean was forced into a humilating admission.

A five-month study for the Democratic National Committee found that more than one in four Ohio voters experienced problems at the polls last fall, but the study did not find evidence of widespread election fraud that might have contributed to President Bush's narrow victory there.

In a stinging reply to the report, Mr. Mehlman agreed that there were numerous election abuses that took place in Ohio last year, but said they were perpetrated by Democrats or their political allies. In one instance, he said, "Democrat allies attempted to disenfranchise Ohio voters by submitting registration cards for Mary Poppins, Dick Tracy and Michael Jordan."

...

"Overwhelmingly," this report said, "these problems were reportedly traced primarily" to four Democratic political allies who supported Mr. Kerry: ACORN, America Coming Together, the AFL-CIO and the NAACP National Voter Fund.

My impression is that the Bush family is the most corrupt family every to have political power in the United States. These are people who believe that they are more than 100% right, and that other people don't matter.

It does not surprise me that Jeb Bush's state is involved in voting machine vulnerabilities. Quote from the story "... vendors such as Diebold have too much influence in the administration of elections, a view that resonated with Lida Rodriguez-Taseff, the founder of the Miami-Dade Election Reform Coalition."

The president of Diebold said he would deliver the votes to Bush. And he did.

I wrote short reviews of books and movies about the corruption, but I only barely touched the surface: Unprecedented Corruption: A guide to conflict of interest in the U.S. government. Note that, although Michael Moore's manner of expression is sloppy, other authors supported his main points in the movie Fahrenheit 9/11. For example, George W. Bush does hold hands with Saudi leaders, his father was at a meeting with a brother of Osama bin Laden on the day before 9/11, and so on.

George Bush and Bill CLinton.

Answers to all of the above, with good sources and logical reasoning, are already available from the sites I've linked to. Seriously, do you really think people would consider the "Pear Harbour"-explanation sound if there weren't lots of logical facts behind it?

(Even though as soon as you mention something along these lines you get "mod bombed" on Slashdot. I've just had 5 posts modded down - even in totally unrelated threads. Who are these kids who think that will make a difference?)

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/911_reichstag.ht ml

Occam's razor. The above link contains the only explanation that makes sense.

Sorry for that, the link must've disappeared due to bad formatting.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/archives/cat_911 .html

All sorts of abuses are discovered, perpetrated by our governments, years after the event when people core to the event have grown old, died, and the event itself sort-of fades from relevance.

Sometimes it leaks out early.

I am glad you appreciated my previous post, LegendLength, but I do not agree with your comment below:

Note that if you argue it is because it is wrong on occasion, then surely that is enough to stop it being used in any serious argument.

As you may well know, the error function is Gaussian, the PDF extends out to infinity both positive and negative. I reject the argument that we need to "mathematically" prove that fraud has occurred, we only need to prove it to satisfy legal standards; "beyond a reasonable doubt". For example, the differences between exit polls and "recorded votes" in 2004 were extraordinary, and in all of the key "battleground" states the swings were towards George W. Bush. Dr Stephen F. Freeman from the University of Pennsylvania calculated that the odds of just three of the major swing states, Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania all swinging as far as they did against their respective exit polls were 250 million to 1. (See, for example, http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/2004votefraud.ht ml

The swings in the 2005 Ohio referendum are even more extraordinary (http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2 005/1559, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/brad-friedman/the-st aggeringly-impossib_b_10589.html) Again, these swings were in the "preferred" Republican direction

Awareness of these atrocities is growing around the fringes of "permissible political discourse" in this country. My fervent hope is that it will not be long until the issue explodes into the public consciousness and the criminals are exposed. In a court of law, where we will see which standard of proof satisfies justice

The guy's just lucky his wife isn't a CIA agent.

or he isn't an Enron snitch:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/baxterautopsy.ht ml

or he isn't actively investigating the powers that be:

http://www.hillnews.com/thehill/export/TheHill/New s/Frontpage/110805/news1.html

Instead, he just got Swift Boated.

Osama bin Laden died quite a while ago. However, that's not what your Leader wants you to believe, and thus you might not know about it.

Fear Osama. Vote for your Leader. Be a good Citizen.

Osama bin Laden - dead

In particular, Voice Stress Analysis appears to be a total fantasy. Don't believe it? Get some VSA freeware and run some double-blind experiments yourself.

:)

You do realise that no comparable building EVER has collapsed (perfectly, one might add) from fires? That includes fires that burnt a lot hotter, and for several days.

I'm a Mechanical Engineer myself, and I'd say there's absolutely no way, except for controlled demolitions, that WTC7 could have collapsed the way it did.

You're of course free to believe what you want, I just think you need to remember that while there exists lots of conspiracy theories on many things, sometimes the conspiracies exists as well. You _do_ realise that your leaders lied about just about everything regarding Iraq I hope? Or why not the Spanish American war:

President McKinley told the American people that the USS Maine had been sunk in Havana Harbor by a Spanish mine. The American people, outraged by this apparent unprovoked attack, supported the Spanish American War. The Captain of the USS Maine had insisted the ship was sunk by a coal bin explosion, investigations after the war proved that such had indeed been the case. There had been no mine. [link]

Photo of Donald Rumsfeld and Saddam concluding an arms deal

Donald Rumsfeld, former Chairman of the Board of Gilead(patent holder of Tamiflu) stands to make a nice sum of money from the Bird Flu scare/outbreak

Which is worst; thinking you're paranoid or knowing that you should be?

GWB knows that OBL has expired - kidney trouble and all, hard to get a dialysis machine into an afghan cave... But you gotta have an enemy to perpetrate a "war" (real Wars are declared by an act of congress), so the Osama bin Laden straw man gets hauled out from time to time.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/osama_dead.html (random link)

I'm sure at least *some* of the items on this page have basis in fact, and some are fantasy, but which ones??

lol

Yah, i'll admit, WhatReallyHappened.com has probably gotten to my brain a little too much lately.
*removes tinfoil hat*
I wasn't trolling so much as just venting. After some further review done by surpressing that good 'ol leftie-knee-jerk reaction 'OMGCONSPIRACY!' cry, i'll agree that the notion of giving us some more daytime isn't such a bad one after all. Considering that the current system has been around for quite some time, and was built during a time which had different needs in relation to the governance of the measurement of time. (i.e. shipping via rail)

Sorry for the 'fsk teh yankies' diatrabe, it wasn't called for. After my younger brother took his life shortly after Sept 11 because he felt that WW3 was inevitable that the world was going to end and no ammount of tin-foil could stop this, i get upset when i see the Canadian government bending over to the US's policies.

Living near Niagara Falls, i'm already seeing a giant chunk of my country's hydro electric energy exported to the US which could be better used in our own back yards instead of building more 'less eco-friendly' power generators. There's talk about building a giant LNG storage favility in my town, $1.6B later, right near a major canal.

my point? The US Government and it's policies scare me. I have no idea what's really going on, the politicians are liars who only care about their wallets and the wallets of their constituents. How can we trust anything they do or propose? *tinfoil hat back on*
they sent your kids off to die in a war built on lies, and the world knows it, how can anyone trust them or any policy they wish to introduce?

So anyways, sorry for the banter. The DST is a good idea. I'll stop looing for 'DST-Gate' and go back under my bridge

References:
http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/firewalls/2 000-q3/2361.html
http://www.issociate.de/board/post/218692/The_prob lem_with_Zone_Alarm.html
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2002/0318/102_2.html
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/spyring.html

Commercial involvment (willing or not) with spying for nation states is alive and well. I know nothing on the topic, but would be very surprised if Microsoft hasn't at least talked to someone from a TLA.

google them and see what comes up. Or you could just click i'm feeling lucky We DID kick him out. They rigged the election results. Still our fault for not rioting in the streets, but cheap hamburger and fear of perpetual incarceration goes a long way towards keeping the population docile.

up one level of off-topic:
2000 was well documented - I like Greg Palast's account the best (and the noive of that woman to now run for elective office in Florida - of course, if you know the table's rigged, it's hard to resist placing your own bet)
I think you're saying, oh well, he cheated in 2000 but darn it, he actually won in 2004. But, 2004 had numerous discrepancies. Here's a link with a few details. http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/2004votefraud.ht ml
Lots more out there.
...and this is just what's known. The administration famous for executive orders to keep presidential papers secret would be likely to have secrets that nobody's found out yet, n'est ce pas?
So, no, I would not agree that Bush has won the presidency at any time. He and his team have demonstrated an impressive capacity to work together to advance their interests and defeat their foes, but they have not colored within the lines. Some express outrage at breaches of electoral process, warmongering and profiteering, and if this is "hating Bush" then it certainly isn't gratuitous.
Outrage isn't my style, though. Please tell me what you find to admire about this person, and we can think happy thoughts together.

Back on-topic - why would using "linux" in a company name be something that would matter? I think patents, copyrights and trademarks are silly, but what do I know? I'm benighted enough to think that it would be more fun to advance the cause of human knowledge than to sit on a buttload of money and sue anybody who doesn't give me my props. Although either one might be fun, if you did it with the right people.

cometman - "acceptance, forgiveness, and love - now that's a philosophy of life" - Woody Allen in Broadway Danny Rose

Incorrect. Genuinely the US pursued a policy explicitly aimed at provoking a military response from Japan to motivate the populace into a state where war could be declared against Japan. This was done in order to secure the British Empire and allow it to fight the contemporaneous enemy of Nazi Germany and not surrender. The British Fleet controlled the Atlantic and prevented attack of the US in that respect, however the concern was if the fleet were taken in whole from a possibly defeated Britain they could be effectively used to attack and possibly defeat and destroy the US. Investigate this memo: http://whatreallyhappened.com/McCollum/

Well, according to points 9 and 10 of the McCollum memo, it was hoped that Japan could be led "to commit an overt act of war".

This most publicised proponent of this interpretation of events is probably Robert B. Stinnett but it is controversial interpretation. Read and make up your own mind.

You don't need to Google for it: all the wacko conspiracy theories you can eat

Though honestly, this is interesting.

You don't need to Google for it: all the wacko conspiracy theories you can eat

Though honestly, this is interesting.

When the WTC fell, Isreali agents in USA stood and danced and laughed. I am not joking about this. Its true. http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.htm l
Isreal have their own Al Quida terrorists.http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fakea lqaeda.html
How about this so called palestinian terrorist http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/terrorist.html Why does he have the star of david on him?
How about the Isreali lured USA into bombing Libiya? http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/deception.html
Sorry but I cant find a link but Isreal murdered a Palstinian in Oslo and tried to blame other Palestinian for it but they got cought. How many other palestinian terrorist attacke have Isreal really done?
Jews do murder jews. You can find a lot of stuff on this site. http://www.barrychamish.com/index.htm
There is so much more but frankly I am too tired right now.

When the WTC fell, Isreali agents in USA stood and danced and laughed. I am not joking about this. Its true. http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.htm l
Isreal have their own Al Quida terrorists.http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fakea lqaeda.html
How about this so called palestinian terrorist http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/terrorist.html Why does he have the star of david on him?
How about the Isreali lured USA into bombing Libiya? http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/deception.html
Sorry but I cant find a link but Isreal murdered a Palstinian in Oslo and tried to blame other Palestinian for it but they got cought. How many other palestinian terrorist attacke have Isreal really done?
Jews do murder jews. You can find a lot of stuff on this site. http://www.barrychamish.com/index.htm
There is so much more but frankly I am too tired right now.

When the WTC fell, Isreali agents in USA stood and danced and laughed. I am not joking about this. Its true. http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.htm l
Isreal have their own Al Quida terrorists.http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fakea lqaeda.html
How about this so called palestinian terrorist http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/terrorist.html Why does he have the star of david on him?
How about the Isreali lured USA into bombing Libiya? http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/deception.html
Sorry but I cant find a link but Isreal murdered a Palstinian in Oslo and tried to blame other Palestinian for it but they got cought. How many other palestinian terrorist attacke have Isreal really done?
Jews do murder jews. You can find a lot of stuff on this site. http://www.barrychamish.com/index.htm
There is so much more but frankly I am too tired right now.

When the WTC fell, Isreali agents in USA stood and danced and laughed. I am not joking about this. Its true. http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.htm l
Isreal have their own Al Quida terrorists.http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fakea lqaeda.html
How about this so called palestinian terrorist http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/terrorist.html Why does he have the star of david on him?
How about the Isreali lured USA into bombing Libiya? http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/deception.html
Sorry but I cant find a link but Isreal murdered a Palstinian in Oslo and tried to blame other Palestinian for it but they got cought. How many other palestinian terrorist attacke have Isreal really done?
Jews do murder jews. You can find a lot of stuff on this site. http://www.barrychamish.com/index.htm
There is so much more but frankly I am too tired right now.

-FL

Ah, the old "think of the children" rouse.

Wait, Hawaii's a state now? Since when??

My point was that they could have done it on 9/11 and they deliberately didn't.

> You forgot about the references to Bush in the Darth Vader
> dialog.

The dialog is superficial. Calls for dramatic absolutes are common when dictators are trying to gain power, as well as anyone with extreme viewpoints. It helps them manage the cognitive dissonance.

Actually all the Star Wars movies are describing, among other things, how Democracy can fall to fascism.

In summary, Palpatine starts a fake war[1] (where he controlled both sides[2]) in order to get elected and stay in office[3] by appealing to people's fear and rallying nationalism [4]. He convinces the Senate to vote Emergency Powers to him [5] in order to consolidate more power under himself. He finally declares the end of the Republic [6] in order to bring "peace" to the galaxy.

The movies are not intended to directly catalog Bush or his policies. The original plot was written in the 1970s, and it was inspired by a number of events in history, including Hitler's rise to power and the Vietnam War. The way we humans move from democracy to fascism happens in roughly the same way each time.

It just so happens that it can be argued that Bush has been following the same pattern as any drive towards fascism. Thus, any parallels to the current state of the U.S. is purely coincidental.

-----

[1] Whoops! No weapons of mass destruction found. Our bad.

[2] Didn't we used to fund and support Saddam Hussein?

[3] Tom Ridge finally admits that the Department of Homeland Security twice questionably raised the terror alert status in order to prop up Bush's poll ratings during the election.

[4] Freedom fries, anyone?

[5] Secret sneak and peek searches via the PATRIOT Act, anyone?

[6] "If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier," Bush said, pausing and then joking, "just so long as I'm the dictator."

Sorry to bust your bubble here, but steel CANNOT be made molten from burning jet fuel in open air. Also, steel buildings have stood up to much more abuse, and haven't collapsed.

Yes, I'll probably take a karma hit on this one, but this myth has gone on long enough.

Believe what you like. That does not make your beliefs the truth.

It was indecent for a cynical world, led by Old Europe and the UN, that allowed Saddam to brutalize Kurdistan and reign for 12 additional years after the first gulf war.

Was it not the sainted President Reagan who gave Saddam the chemical weapons with which he gassed the Kurds? Was it not Donald Rumsfeld, no less, who went to Baghdad at the time to shake Saddam's hand? Please tell me about the decency of Reagan and Rumsfeld.

All you can do is make hyperbolic assertions with no relevance to real events.

(Boggle) No relevance to reality? Has Bush's WMD excuse for invading Iraq proven to be totally empty, or not? Did the U.S. revive Saddam's dreaded secret police, the Mukhabarat, or not? Did Iyad Alawi make a loudly praised speech to Congress, or not? Is the same Alawi now leading death squads in Iraq, or not? Did Americans torture their prisoners in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, in defiance of the Geneva Conventions, or not?

"Decency" is not in Bush's vocabulary. (See his heist of the University of Houston's trust fund.) It is certainly in "Chemical" Rumsfeld's vocabulary, but he sneers at it.

Let the wireless companies compete. And not just on WiFi. Verizon has EVDO, and Sprint is starting up their EVDO. Don't take tax money and give it to an inefficient -- and potentially tyrannical (in terms of ready cooperation with snooping federal agencies) -- government-run communications operation.

Any goal of bridging the "digital divide" for the economically disadvantaged should be handled by private charities. The last thing we need is for that segment of the population to have a government-run ISP censor blogs like whatreallyhappened.com (which was classified at one point by a censorware company as being "anti-Semitic", and thus presumably unavailable at some public schools and libraries).

I think that the average Terrorists are probably not very bright; they are really under the influence/control/payroll of one or two smart Terorists. People who haven't had good lives, are perpetually angry (brain chemical inbalance, if you listen to Rodger Penrose), and have solid bred-from-birth disdain for the western world of commerce are probably very easy to influence and control if the resources are availible.

Read up on the first WTC bombing... there was one fellow (Ramzi Ahmed Yousef) who was taking orders from a CIA asset to recruit and train his team of Terrorists for the bombing. The leader was given the plan and resources for that horrible act and told to go ahead, despite his stating that his team hadn't been properly psychologically prepared yet. What happened? the smart "leader" fellow realized that he was being set up to take the fall and told his goons to park the truck farther away from the support columns -- making the blast less than fatal to the structural integrity of the building. This is not the official story, this is the conspiracy theory.

somewhat unrelated to this outline is this archive of a NYT article http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/POLITICS/ OK/wtcbomb.html

The oil tanker: "Condoleezza Rice". What did she do that so pleased Chevron that they named a tanker after her?

Read more about it: Every Day Is An Anti-war Protest Day.

The oil tanker: "Condoleezza Rice". What did she do that so pleased Chevron that they named a tanker after her?

Read more about it: Every Day Is An Anti-war Protest Day.

So?