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China Banning Win2k
Several people have submitted links to several stories about China banning the use of Win2k in government to encourage indigenous software. Here is a story from The San Jose Mercury, and one from
South China Ministry. They will instead be required to use Red Flag Linux, which is being developed by Chinese Researchers.
your average Linux programmer who has nothing to do with his / her government at all.
God, are you Americans really so ignorant? Do you think it's possible to own a computer in China and "have nothing to do with the government"? If you live in China, the government owns your computer, it owns your house, and if you're a pregnant woman, it thinks that it owns the fetus inside your body (just as you Americans think that the Reverend Jerry Falwell should own it).
If you think that it's possible to just write Linux applications in China, just go and live there why don't you? If you don't want to fly Air China, then you can get there the easy way -- just come here to Taiwan and wait. We certainly don't expect you Americans to show any more guts defending us than you did with the poor bloody Vietnamese!
THIS MODERATED AS FLAMEBAIT?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?! smashdot moderation at its best...
No, I don't remember "Jesux". What is it? Some catholic thing?
Yes. You don't have to pay for the distribution, but you must tithe. If you violate the license terms, you will be excommunicated. There is no "roor" user -- you log in as "pope". User group "meetings" are actually called "masses".
I could go on, but that's probably enough to keep me in purgatory for a while.
It doesn't matter.
The Chinese government can order 1500 copies of Red Hat from Cheapbytes.com if they like. It's cheaper to do that than to burn their own on CDR media.
The one thing they will never, ever, do is order 15,000,000 retail box versions of Red Hat Linux.
It's only a matter of time before word gets out to Red Hat investors that the company they own gives away it's IP on an FTP site to anybody that connects to it. I imagine there will be a fun shareholders meeting in about a year, if the lawsuits aren't already in process by then.
So according to the slashdot drinking game, how drunk should we all be right now?
Short trip.
But a long ride.
Bill: "Steve, take that man for a ride..."
Information wants to be free.
You didn't seriously think the GPL could stop this fact, did you?
You could, though. Small computer manufacturers/resellers around here name their boxes after things like presidents and battleships, and Red Flag Linux doesn't look any weirder to me than the Nimitz 2000 PIII-450 Computer (or Star Spangled Linux, for that matter).
I do. But you seem like someone who loves to argue for the sake of arguing. Thats all. I'm not nit picking anything you are saying, just for you relax and not get so crazy when you read something.
From each according to his ability, to each... whatever they want. Well, that's half of what Marx said.
English, for obvious reasons, is the human language of choice on lkml and related mailing lists. Are we going to see a chinese-lkml, or are people just going to start talking Chinese on lkml? Neither one would be an ideal solution: you want coordination between hackers, no matter what language they're speaking; on the other hand, you can't expect all the kernel hackers to learn Chinese. Then again, maybe a lot of people in China speak English? I'm fairly ingorant wrt life in China.
Why would the Chinese government ban something (the GPL) when all they have to do is ignore it? You aren't going to see a lot of monitor-tanned college schoolboys out picketing Chinese government installations over it, you know.
Regarding #1... is Linux at least trying to conform to the Unicode standard, or planning on it, or are they creating their own representation for 2-byte char sets?
And as for #2, it will never happen. There may be 1 billion people in China but the extremely vast majority are subsistence farmers who can barely grow anything to save their own lives... communism doesn't work, and China is, for the most part, technologically backward. Linux is a perfect choice.
E.
Can't wait to hear Open Source people try to say Open Source isn't socialist/communist now.... if all the communists and socialists love it, that makes is communist/socialist guys! (BTW, its socialist, not communist, because the "public" owns it, not the government)
You have said the opposite of the truth. STOP LYING.
Anyone care to take a pool on how many dozens of jokes are going to be made about communist Linux
Is it really a joke? Like Windows NT? Not There? Not Tested? Not Today? Never Trusted? Nice Try?
Bring on the jokes. Let's see if you can make some funny ones. Unlike the joke NT is, Linux does not need weekly reboots. Make fun of a weakness in Linux, its likely to pump gcc on some big iron and become stronger. Go ahead, kick the sand. It builds character.
Kick it in Gates' face and he's likely to cut off your air supply.
With China's apparent disregard for software licenses and paying for software in general, what will become of the GPL? China could in theory make their own proprietary OS based on Linux, and refuse to release their improvements. Who would force them to abide by the GPL? Does it matter?
Uptimes on one Linux box are worth a thousand reboots of NT.
Our NT fileserver had an uptime of > 4 years until we took it down to upgrade for y2k.
Yeah, it would end up something like fast-food with no taste and no style.
Whether or not you can enforce the GPL against Chinese people isn't really important. If Microsoft (or someone else) buys it, you can (hopefully) enforce it against them. And that would be the least of their worries once the media gets ahold of the stories. Oh I can just imagine the stories now: "Linux (pronounced LINN-ucks), an operating system created by Finnish ...." (in case someone from Slashdot is reading this, this is what I call a "joke").
Not that I'd mind terribly anyway; I'd just as soon have all the code be public domain. If Microsoft can get some of the Linux code and make a better OS, it's a win-win as far as I'm concerned.
Insightful? Give me a break. Just insightful because some teenage geek said something bad about NT. How many Unix boxes have been compromised over the years? Still going on in plenty of government Unix boxes now! Slashdot is really, really pathetic.
I love Linux and use it everyday as both a server and desktop platform. Sometimes people forget that people want to be free as much as information does.
Here is the real problem. If the Chinese government "researchers" decide to include backdoors into "Red Flag" to surveille their own people can the people demand the source code to OS to check? Who is going to enforce the GPL against the Chinese? Hehehe.
If I look on the bright side. Maybe free software can free the Chinese? In a country of forced abortions, murder of Tibetan monks and other horrors I find it hard to believe but hope so.
Hopefully this Cultural Revolution won't end up killing 65 million of its own citizens.
>1/6th of the world's population. Right. Who's >figures? You gone out and counted them, right? >Or are you depending on some published figure >for China from a decade ago, then comparing it >to the world population of today? Sorry, but >that ain't worth a damn. Like with like, or >don't bother. Goodness... you seriously think China has 1/2 of the world's population?!? Where do you get _your_ figures from? According to the CIA World Factbook 1999, China had a population of about 1.25 billion in July 1999. The world had a population of 6.00 billion in July 1999. In other words, China has ~1/5 of the world's population, a lot closer to 1/6 than 1/2.
I think you've just described MULTICS.
ESR travels further than Podunk each and every evening. When he's on the Astral Plane after the evenings Wiccan incantation has been performed.
Ah, that's better.
You guys said the same thing about Linux.
Time will prove you wrong.
(roll newsreel of famous communist speaker at rally expounding on how "history in inevitable, software will be free, etc..)
I think he's talking about the Opium War or something.
Or "Backyard Steel Foundries"
Right, if the CNN is a reliable source of information, I'd better read RedStar or something
I agree to a point, but your logic is flawed. The US, which to my knowledge is doing the majority of the work for free software, has no perfect history. It's the only country to use an atomic bomb to kill people, it too has supressed a whole culture (Native Americans), and you don't have to look far to find injustice (though I haven't heard of anyone going to jail for joining the Rotary club). This isn't an attack on the US; I'm sure almost every other country in the world has a very poor history. The people of China may do some real good for the free software movement (and some of them have already), but the real problem would be government mandated work on the kernel, which would be bad no matter which government was in question.
I just had another thought. They almost certainly won't respect the GPL.
I am sure that ideological bedfellows like Richard Stallman and the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China can come to some agreement.
...in other words, don't get your undies in a bundle before you even know what they are going to do.
Software licenses/paying for software doesn't apply to a free system. It costs China no real $$$ to go along with the GPL.
We will just have to wait and see.
I done been telling the answer to you's question: Me! Me's figures! I been done telling you that. Not you's figures. Me's!
Wait. I seen this before. I written something else once. W'hat w'as it?
Us's?
This satire brought to you by the inflection "WHOSE", the naked past participle, and the society for the preservation of proper orthography.
Prove it to me people are banned from recompiling the kernel. Just give me a single case.
and China :) Russia is the biggest though.
and I can't read French.
It might be true that the license of Linux is better than the license of W2K, though...
Better for what? Better for hobbyist playing around? Certainly not better for 'develop a standard version that you know will remain stable and not have new features creeping into it every two days.' Completley uncertifiable, in other words.
yeah yeah.. chaw chee choo.. chee chee chee.. cho chi cha chooooooo.. che chau chau. chau chua chua chue che
Why are people worried about chinese comments, or GPL or anything at all.. after all they will just be downloading the source-code , and the so-called "chinese researchers" will just be running a script which will insert /*RegFlag Linux, developed wholly by Chinese Researcers*/ and voila, they have their RedFlag Linux.. or, who knows, just run script to replace Hat from "RedHat" with Flag to get "RedFlag" Or anyway they have billions of ppl, who can do it manually if they cant even write and run a script..
Scott McNealy thinks that a hockey puck should be included free with every Solaris installation. He's a jock, you know. One of the guys who slammed you up against the lockers every day in school, breaking the 0.5mm lead in your mechanical pencil, sometimes even causing the whole pocket protector to fall out onto the linoleum.
Hadn't you heard? The phrase "Open Source" is silently dropped in any translation of Linux documentation to the Chinese language.
I mean, everyone knows that their government tells the people exactly what they should know (regardless of what the truth might be).
Holy s**t! Now I am getting scared...
I mean, I *am* tired of bashing US, but statement like yours really makes you look like a moron. Did you read it before you posted it?
What is ANY government on this planet doing? Tell me? Isn't EVERY govt on this planet doing the same!? Absolutelly.
Then, what is Chinese govt different than others (in respect of 'telling things')? No difference. As much as I have seen, NOBODY is forcing people to listen what govt says and to blindly beleive in that. You know, it's 21st century now (ok, next year), people *do* have computers (imagine, they're not yanks and they have computers!? WOW!), and they do read things everywhere.
Shit, I still can't beleive that yanks so blindly beleive how their media is 'free' and wonderful, and nobody else has ANY way of getting the 'right' information?
I just wonder how do YOU KNOW that you are getting the 'right information'...
You guys said the same thing about Linux. Time will prove you wrong.
Uptimes on one Linux box are worth a thousand reboots of NT.
Okay, I think this was a troll but even so, because it makes it harder for others. I am currently in that I18N stuff and at times it is somewhat frustrating to search for documentation and patches only to find it all written in [your favourite language here].
At the end of the day it is going to cause me not to care about anything that requires more than 8 bit, just not enough time.
I am aware though it is much harder for a lot of people to learn a western language. I am having enough problems with my mother tounge already, not to mention English.
...picturing boxes of Red Hat with Flag labels slapped over the name and logo.
I sincerely doubt that the Chinese gov't has one billion employees.
You moderators really *do* know nothing, eh?
In this situation, we don't need to enforce it against China. We could just go after Microsoft directly. The latest bruhaha just made something like that a whole hell of a lot easier.
China can tell a judge in Delaware to f*ck off, Microsoft can't.
The word "pirating" has a colorful folkloric flavor to it that blurs the real truth. The word 'theft' or 'stealing' is more accurate.
Read some damn psuedo-intellectual website run by tenured do-nothings for the counter arguement to mine.
Why don't you actually read the post before finding a weak excuse to bash the US, next time?
I'm Chinese myself and have family in Taiwan as well as in the U.S. and your post really shows you aren't Taiwanese and know nothing about today's China, but some asshole who pretends to be Taiwanese to give China a bad name. My family in Taiwan have a small business and there is indeed tention between Taiwan and China, but there's no war going on there. My family in Beijing have all the freedom they want. In the China of the nineties (and now 2000) it is dangerous to try to overthrow the goverment through propaganda. But if you're not interested in politics, you may do whatever you want, live the way you want, travel and do business. Your ignorant info about the ownership of everything a Chinese citizen has is totally stereotype. My parents saw the "real" communists come in 1949, who had major influcence in people's life fifty years ago. Today, China isn't democratic, but it's capitalistic as well as a dictatorship. There is no such thing as communism in China. Communism means that every thing that you have, has to be given to the government, everyone has to work, whether or not you have money of your own. Today, you may study, you may do millions in investments, have good jobs, travel all over the world. Dictatorship is not synonym for communism. China's problem is not communism (it's not there), but dictatorship. And the stupid header of yours about fascism is bullshit, because we fought the fascist Japanese and German SS who were in Japan fifty years ago. You seem to call everything that you don't like fascist. Think before you post!
That's ridiculous, mate. It's like saying: "Each manager for each division of XYZ Corporation can make up his own rules for marketing and company policy." When a company CEO decides that the company will standardize on something, is it "censorship" ? Uhhh. If the US goverment standardized on software, I bet it wouldn't be "censorship" either. They chose that software. If the Chinese government chooses to standardize on Linux, that's their choice - not "censorship".
but the real problem would be government mandated work on the kernel, which would be bad no matter which government was in question.
What has the kernel have to do with it? The kernel accesses hardware. Your hardware either works, or it doesn't. Changing a driver can't change the semantics of an e-mail message for instance. And since the computer-industry in China is evolving very quickly, people would rather download a standard kernel or use Windows. There's no way to control a mass of hundredmillions of people in using a certain distro. Certainly not when people get access to hardware. I can't imagine Jiang Zemin reading and checking twenty billion e-mail messages a day!
Hmm... Funny foot button->File manager. Not too hard, if you ask me. To the best of my knowledge, Windows doesn't open the start menu from left-clicking on the desktop without special software (Diamond's odd desktop driver thing comes to mind).
Your pop bottle analogy is more accurate than you let on. Only a very dense person would keep trying to use a corkscrew to open a pop bottle. Any half-competent person would figure out that you pull the little tab within a minute. The same holds for the switch between any desktop system and any other desktop system.
ln -s /dev/null Z-file
You are damn right. When it comes to human rights, it may sound good, but if there is an economic impact to it - forget it. Same goes for the environment. Capitalism is about being self-centered to the extreme!
uhh... Mr. racist, mandarin does not sound like this.
yes they do!
Yes, you Americans are always quick to point fingers at other countries for their wrong-doing, like "ethnic cleansing," even though you're country was built on the backs of African slaves and you killed off most of the native inhabitants to acquire your land. The funny thing I see now is how much you scold Brazil for destroying its forests, while your forests are already destroyed. As for one billion new linux users, don't scold the Chinese for their bad government. There are millions of Chinese who hate their government and would like democracy. Giving them linux is a good thing, and hopefully a truly revolutionary concept like free software with gravitate into free speech. :) Let's keep our fingers crossed and wish the Chinese best of luck.
Sends shivers down my spine. That's for sure.
"Windows is still far and away the dominant operating system for personal computers in China. While piracy is rampant - reaching a rate of more than 90 per cent by some estimates - the Chinese government has said it uses legally registered copies."
Software piracy in China is estimated at 98 percent in recent surveys. So of all the software in China, only 1 in 50 copies is legally liscensed. Windows will -always- be popular, as long as Chinese officials continue to 'look the other way' while their factories manufacture copies of unliscensed software. M$ O$es are (unfortunately) easier to use then Linux, and since the Chinese government doesn't care what you do as long as you don't threaten the status quo and give them a cut of the action.
Sure they'll use real software. They stole nuclear weapons from us, people, you think they are going to use nonpirated software on their desktops?
They won't dump Linux for a closed-source anything.
They can close the source on Linux quite well, thank-you-very-much.
You didn't think the GPL was going to apply in China, did you?
Listen very closely: If your country were missing a very important weapon, you would definitely send your own spies in to acquire that technology from those who had it. And you would call these men "patriots", not thieves. China is no different. Get your head out of your ass.
Do you have any idea how big China is? Do you have any idea of the size of China's population?
"Most widely-used" indeed. If China overwhelmingly adopts Linux as some kind of "de-facto standard", Linux will be the most widely-used operating system.
Duh.
I came to him and knelt before him unziping his pants reaching in I found his
hard cock I moved my hand under his briefs and pulled it free his hard brown
cock sprang from his pants and dripping his fluids as my tongue licked his
pre-cum from the tip and my mouth opened and I took him in I almost came then
and there. I was on fire lust was burning inside me. As my mouth worked up and
down on his massive organ.
Oh yea baby suck it suck it yes. My right hand moved down and started to rub
my wet pussy thru my panties my fingers slid under the leg hole and into my
cunt shit I was going to cum I wanted it in me, I stopped sucking.
I got up and pulled my panties down and bent over the hood of the car come
fuck me stick your hard cock into my pussy please I need it. He came up behind
me lifted my skirt and I felt him move between my legs his hands went to my
ass and I felt his cock slid down my ass cheeks touching my anus, OH it felt
nice as it continued down and slid into my tight pussy it was wide open for
him and I could feel my juices running down the insides of my legs.
He rammed his cock into me until his hips touched my ass OH YES FUCK YESS he
pulled back and thrust forward again this time my ass pushed back to meet his
forward thrust, OH FUCK it was wonderful.
He reached around me and took a tit in each hand and grabbed hold tight he
started ramming his cock into me like a jack hammer, OH FUCK YES FUCK ME OH
FUCK and I came like never before it was wonderful, he grabbed hold tighter to
my tits and I felt him tense then I felt his hot cum shooting into my pussy it
was so hot and wonderful it sent me into another orgasm.
He collapsed onto my back we were both spent and tired, he finely withdrew his
shrinking cock from my pussy I turned and we kissed and held each other tight
for several minutes before we dressed and headed back to my parents.
We both had to shower when we got home and avoid my parents we both smelled
loudly of sex.
We never spent anymore time together and we don't stay in contact. He's
married after all and loves his wife.
I think if we ever meet again like this we will definitely fuck again it was
just so wonderful.
I came to him and knelt before him unziping his pants reaching in I found his hard cock I moved my hand under his briefs and pulled it free his hard brown cock sprang from his pants and dripping his fluids as my tongue licked his pre-cum from the tip and my mouth opened and I took him in I almost came then and there. I was on fire lust was burning inside me. As my mouth worked up and down on his massive organ. Oh yea baby suck it suck it yes. My right hand moved down and started to rub my wet pussy thru my panties my fingers slid under the leg hole and into my cunt shit I was going to cum I wanted it in me, I stopped sucking. I got up and pulled my panties down and bent over the hood of the car come fuck me stick your hard cock into my pussy please I need it. He came up behind me lifted my skirt and I felt him move between my legs his hands went to my ass and I felt his cock slid down my ass cheeks touching my anus, OH it felt nice as it continued down and slid into my tight pussy it was wide open for him and I could feel my juices running down the insides of my legs. He rammed his cock into me until his hips touched my ass OH YES FUCK YESS he pulled back and thrust forward again this time my ass pushed back to meet his forward thrust, OH FUCK it was wonderful. He reached around me and took a tit in each hand and grabbed hold tight he started ramming his cock into me like a jack hammer, OH FUCK YES FUCK ME OH FUCK and I came like never before it was wonderful, he grabbed hold tighter to my tits and I felt him tense then I felt his hot cum shooting into my pussy it was so hot and wonderful it sent me into another orgasm. He collapsed onto my back we were both spent and tired, he finely withdrew his shrinking cock from my pussy I turned and we kissed and held each other tight for several minutes before we dressed and headed back to my parents.
The SJMN article says it's only GUBBANINT users enjoined to use Linux.
If the US Gov't were to, say, prohibit use of proprietary data formats and mandate open formats only for data/doc exchange within the gov't, would that be totalitarian? No, it would be sensible, save money, and provide massive convenience to its contractors and employees.
Oh, and it would dent MSFT's market a bit.
Is poor Bo Gritz down hot Porter Lee Nadman's pants?
I was pointing out that an obvious thing in one GUI does not work in MS-Windows. Not only does left-click in MS-Windows not bring up a menu with assorted programs, the MS file manager is not called "File Manager".
For that matter, you're suggesting pulling a little tab to open a pop bottle. Maybe your bottles use a different seal than a twist-to-open cap (or a pop-top cap which requires a bottle opener..and an increasing number of people are not trained in the use of a bottle opener!).
Why not? Seems reasonable to me :-)
Well, I hope they ban Win2K here in the US. It would be a giant leap forward.
That place you are talking about would be rightly taken up by a Macintosh or a NeXT. WinTel machines still remain overly complicated unreliable throwbacks to the 70's that should be relegated to dim memory already.
Let say you wrote something, a kernel patch or a device driver and you keep it to yourself. When the next kernel comes out, _you_ have to read thro all the code again in order to implement your patch back to the source. What a drag! Check out LIDS (Linux Intrusion Dectection System), its a kernel patch released in China.
Does it look like a small red book? Brad
Take a wild guess which language has (one of) the most limited character sets? On the other hand, how about code that has single character terms that are specific enough for nuance!
Keyboards would be a bitch, but how about speech written...
Yeah, nothin' we Yankees like better than the millions of lynchings that go on every day in all our towns, replayed each evening on our TeeVees.
Let's all keep equating cultures and populations with their governments, and taxing the people for the gov't's sins, especially those committed by armed divisions a century ago. That way, we're too strapped to prevent modern bullies from having their fun. Doncha love liberals? You'd better, or the Committee will take your children.
Yes. It's called a "land-fill."
At the most basic level, they can stick with using GB2312 (simplified characters only), but if they need to include traditional characters (such as everything in Taiwan's Big5) for compatibility, they can use GBK (aka GB13000.1), which is backwards compatible with GB2312. GBK, incidently, has every character that's in Unicode 2.0, including all those Japanese and Korean ones. It also happens to be the character set already used in the mainland China edition of Windows 95.
Promote choice? I don't think so. "We want to use [insert OS here] in this govt office." Response "No, you can't". That is choice? Listen to what you said... "...if a software company want to sell their product to the government, they HAVE (emphasis added)to port their product to Linux " That is choice? I bet if they were banning Linux, you wouldn't have the same view.
And it is easy for those of us who have lots of talent to state calmly "I'll use what works. This is not an emotional or religious issue. It is just an OS."
There's no way to ban source-code from millions of users. If someone in China can get hold of illegal copies of Windows (piracy is officially illegal since a while in China), he can ofcourse obtain source code without any problem. A lot of people (like the TurboLinux guys) are already using Linux intensively while respecting GPL. I'm from Holland myself and over here governments all use Windows and get hacked all the time. Je weet wel, al die hacktic gedoe van een tijdje geleden. It's bad to let people to use Windows, because that keeps them dumb. Linux is good for education and can't be stopped by *anyone* from spreading as source-code. It's scale is too large and everyone can get hold of it. Windows will ruin the Chinese market, no way they will use Windows!!!!
Actually, Unicode does include *every* character used in GB2312 (mainland China), Big5 (Taiwan), JIS X 0208 and JIS X 0212 (Japan), KS C 5601 (Korea), as well as many others--about 20,902 of them as of Unicode 2.0, and 6,582 more were added in Unicode 3.0 (for CJK Extension A). A future CJK Extension B will include pretty much every character you see in multi-volume monster dictionaries like Morohashi or Hanyu Dazidian.
YEAH BITCH!!! I AM S0000 el337!!!!
Why should a technologically advancing world put up with pathetic attempts to superimpose clumsy dumb primitive scripts like Chinese over their shiny achievements?
You can't imagine them calling it Red Flag? What are you, a spokesperson for the Chinese people? So nobody's supposed to have any patriotism unless it's good old 'red white and blue'?
You know, there are people in the world who are proud of their countries even though *gasp* they don't live in america!
2) A lot of people in China will be using linux. Some of them will be writing new code.
You don't get it? The Chinese are constitutionally incapable of keeping their hands off other people's stuff -- ask any Vietnamese.
They'll take your code, write their own, make the whole lot proprietary and sell it back to Micro$oft to release Linux 2001. And because they've got more and better programmers than you have, Bill will kick your ass again.
This is an inevitable consequence of an open source license -- it's bound to be exploited by people who don't share our and Linus' Christian-Judaic values. Licences like the Sun one for Java, which have been actually thought out by experts rather than long-haired barrack-room lawyers, don't have this problem.
And you needn't think you're going to be able to enforce the GPL against the people's Republic of China in any court on Earth. Is ESR going to get out his gun collection to equip an invading army of geeks? If so, which side will RMS be fighting on?
Keep it up. I think the last barrier to mainstream for slashdot it the sometimes strange grammar and spelling of its posters. Although a small amount is good for the amateur charm it conveys.
Maybe they'll call it 'penguin'?
Anyone care to take a pool on how many dozens of jokes are going to be made about communist Linux? I'm going for two thousand jokes made, about three of which are actually going to be unique.
You're an ass pirate
This is an inevitable consequence of an open source license -- it's bound to be exploited by people who don't share our and Linus' Christian-Judaic values.
Uh. So is this an East/West thing? The great and moral Western people shall never exploit an open source license?
Give me a break.
>Why would they send tanks after peacefully protesting people? Because they were never "peacefullly protesting". >Why would they arrest people for worshiping in small groups, privately? Because they the leaders of that "small group" always funk young girls in that small group. >Why would they forcibly control places like Tibet? Because Tibet always a part of China ever since. >Why would they hold military exercises to influence ROC elections? No, they never did that. Now any questions?
Hehe Slashdot cracks me up. Just so you know, Linux is not superior to W2K. I sincerely doubt you've used it. But even if your assertion is true, it has not been demonstrated in any way. It might be true that the license of Linux is better than the license of W2K, though...
One impact to W2k before its launch. Now waiting for France and Brazil to pass their free software bill.
Secret? Standard hardware, standard drivers, not installing buggy programs, letting it do its job as a fileserver. You are correct, it was not nt4, I think it was nt3.51, and no, we didn't install the service packs - on the other hand we didn't need to.
just think of it.. when some person tries to practice religion, it is linux that helps the government keep track of which prison they are in, and how much they owe the government for handcuffs, transportation, etc.
It seems to me that if 1 billion Chinese started using Linux, Linux would, in fact, be the most widely used OS in the world.
Special Features
- SkinCam support which detects your skincolor and if you're not white, you'll get lynched
- KKK-screensaver: Some bozo in a narr-suit popping up your screen all of a sudden
- National Light-Gun support: if you didn't cry at the national anthem, a little kid zooms onto your screen and shoots at you
- Mono-newsgroups: you can only view news about Monica Lewinsky
ps. Don't talk too much shit about law, because your country is number two on Amnesty International's list. In some states in the US, you'll get thrown in jail for FORTY YEARS for not returning a rented TV. And that's not a joke.I try again! >Why would they send tanks after peacefully protesting people? Because they were never "peacefullly protesting". >Why would they arrest people for worshiping in small groups, privately? Because they the leaders of that "small group" fuck young girls in that small group. >Why would they forcibly control places like Tibet? Because Tibet always a part of China ever since. >Why would they hold military exercises to influence ROC elections? No, they never did that. Now any questions?
Maybe because only the tiniest fraction of the citizens can afford computers.
More likely a defense, so they can have some pretense of legitimacy: "Oh, no Mr. Gates, we don't have any unlicensed copies of Windows 2000... we don't have any copies at all. That would be against our own law."
If China uses free software exclusively, nobody
in the US can gripe about piracy. The government
can lead by example.
This is a great idea... as long as they respect
the GNU public license. how the hell would we
be able to go after them for not publishing
source?
Mark
>>Since the Chinese are a bunch of lazy and cheap mofos As opposed to trailer trashly, Jerry-Springer-watching Americans?
i love the fact that the two links in this story point to the same story repeated in 2 newspapers on opposites sides of the world.
Do you just troll around sites looking for the flimsiest excuse to throw a sarcastic hissy fit about perceived Amreican conceit? The guy obviously thoght Red Flag linux was a silly name. Nothing more. Maybe you need to seek counseling.
I haven't been in China for a couple of year but last time I was there, there was a wide selection of PCs for sale. Prices wern't too bad. Anyone with the cash could buy one. (and contrary to popular belief, lots of people CAN afford them.) RE: China and Taiwan I live in Taipei. I don't know what planet the guy who posted the previous message is from but people are more worried about their stock portfolio performance than about being invaded by China. (And by the way, about 90% of the people here don't seem to have ANY interest in seeing Taiwan re-unify with China.)
How many "China adopts Linux" stories have we heard around here lately? I'm betting that this is misinformation.
As a side note, why is everyone so enamored with the idea that China might adopt Linux and/or make it the "Official People's Operating System" or some such silliness? Anyone in the world can use it -- why the fascination with China?
If it's the "1 billion Linux users" argument, please save your keystrokes. Very few of those 1 billion Chinese people actually have computers. If you think that American and European businesses will be tempted to use "The Official OS of China", think again. American businesses in particular would be more likely to steer clear of an operating system mandated by a totalitarian state.
If anything, this sounds like a successful story-planting campaign from the "GNU is Communist" FUD factory.
To the Slashdot editors -- fooled once, shame on them. Fooled twice, shame on you. If this story is bogus it will be... what... the THIRD time in a month that the "China adopts Linux" headline has been wrong? Let it go already.
(p.s. "Red Flag" Linux should be a hint. I can't think of a better name for such a hoax, except perhaps "Red Herring" Linux. Remember Jesux?)
Right on!
What's the betting they don't want to risk a US-govt mandated back door in W2k???? P
What if similar tactic results in MS porting Office to Linux? People buy OS to use applications, not to use the OS.
Currently, if anyone want to sell an application, doesn't s/he need to write for Windows just because 90% of market use it? If s/he don't care about the 90% market, windows can be ignored. Similarly if the vendor don't care about sales to government sector, they can ignore Linux. And there're companies who "standardize" their internal IT environment to MS products. All these sounds like silence banning of non-MS products to me.
Cut it out with the relentless Windows bashing, Win2000 doesn't suck.
char rant[] = "The Chinese government requires control to function! Complete control! The Chinese government is indirectly dictating to the people of China what their choice of technology should be! It will not be long 'till China forces all their internal defence contractors (which is probably a large chunk of Chinese technology companies) to migrate to their own closed sourced operating system or face grave consequences. What better way to keep check on internal dissidents than to install surrepititious monitoring code or backdoors? Afterall, communications technology has enabled resistence fighters in the Chiapas and Haiti to voice their concerns (see http://www.freeradio.org/frb/irate.html for more details) and has the same potential to challenge the stability of the omnipotent Chinese government!! Technology paves way to something that all totalitarian governments truly hate -- FREE SPEECH! Don't get me wrong, I'm all for dumping Winblows and embracing Linux but I still value by freedom [to choose!]"; /* - Phzy */
I don't see Star Spangled Linux anywhere...
Not really. I grew up learning simplified Chinese, but I can also read traditional Chinese. I didn't explicitly learn reading traditional, but after reading a few books by HK/Taiwan publishers, I can map traditional chars to simplified chars and vice versa. Both are as easy to read to me. But when you comes to writing, I bet simplified is easier.
Judging by the posts of all the fanatics here, I think a lot more goes into their OS decisions than just what applications they want to use! It isn't "silence banning". It is using a good product. It is easy to standardize an IT environment on Microsoft products. What's wrong with that? Oh yeah, I forgot MISRO$OFT SUX! LINUX RULZ! DOWN WITH BILL! Slashdot is un%$^ingbelievable...
Someone else who hasn't read the article. I sincerely doubt there are that many people in the Chinese government.
My point: You can't have your cake and eat it too, people. Everyone's been stating what I just did in response to claims that the Chinese government is forcing Linux upon its people (and thus denying them lack of personal choice), but conveniently enough, no one has said it in response to claims that it will introduce "a billion" new Linux users.
Don't get me wrong; I'm a Linux fan myself. But Linux should be promoted on its benefits, not as a means of taking potshots at Microsoft. That just looks childish and ignorant.
MS made a bad move in dropping a lot of backward compatibility.
I've never had a problem running old apps. Only the driver model changed, and it is still somewhat back-compatible with nt4 in that respect, but almost everything has win2000 drivers.
hmmmm. the chinese dump an operating system from a company that is the epitome of capitalism in favor of an operating system that reeks of communism. i'll bet that damn, dirty hippy richard stallman is actually from china.
here's something else to think about:
i've seen this theory floated around that the "alien abduction" phenomenon is somehow related to an "asian scare." all of the reports of the alien's appearance vaguely resemble asian people. now, to take it one step further... ever notice how alien sightings always seem to pop up around eric raymond?!
esr, rms... doesn't matter how you spell it, it sounds like "communist/alien conspiracy" to me.
thank you.
the fat-time charlie online serial!! be sure to bookmark it and don't forget to hit "reload"!!
We all know China is allway's ahead when it comes to tech thingy's, this is an omen for what's to come!! (I sure hope we don't get a country firewall like they have on the other hand)
>The majority of the population is far below the >poverty level...
:) The poorest place Ive been too, a Dong village in the south, had electricty (hydro - nice little setup) and several public phones.
True, there are a lot of poor (by western standards) people.
>and a large portion don't even have electricity >in their houses
This is complete crap though, Ive been to places
In the Middle of F**king Nowhere, and without
fail there has been electricity, and usually, huge
TVs, satellite dishes, VCD players (and LOTS of vcds
Not a defense of China, merely an attempt to keep bashing of cultures most of us don't understand, or actively participate in, to a minimum.
Conquest, murder, torture, opression --- you can't judge us, it's just our culture. OH! Cut the crap.
Everyone judges everyone. Human rights are universal. Crying about culture is the sorriest excuse.
Maybe we get a few DOS attacks, but their citizens get news and information. How you gonna keep them down in the gulag when they're reading cnn.com?
Can your dumb Communist ass not post your totalitarian government's propaganda?
1) Agreed, the Tiannamen protesters were not per-se peaceful. On the other hand, they were not overtly violent until attacked by the military. No justification for this act beyond the Chinese government's fear that anyone might disagree with them.
2) So now Falun Gong practitioners are pedophiles? Realize that government-controlled propaganda sources often accuse opponents of immoral things to rile the people. No reputable news source has said such a thing. Even if some practioners are disgusting, all of them? Every single one of them? So how would one man's disgusting action justify throwing other people who merely happen to have similar religious beliefs in jail for years?
3) More propaganda. Tibet has a clearly separate culture from China. If it was always a part of China, why did China have to invade it? Guess it wasn't part of China, huh? This claim is just like the Russians claiming the eastern european countries invaded during the cold war were always theirs - the Russians, told such by the government and unable to see the truth to governmental censorship may have believed such, but anyone who was in a country that protected free speech knew the truth.
4) During the last Taiwanese election, the Chinese military did engage in military exercises near the coast. Considering China's nationalistic claims to the soverign nation of Taiwan, only a fool would consider this not a threat. Again, check out publications in countries not pathologically obsessed with preventing its citizens from finding out the truth. Here's a link to a site, randomly found through Altavista, that details the military exercises during the elections.
Now realize you were wrong and don't post on political matters again until you read something other than propaganda.
All operating systems suck. It's just a matter of degree, really. BSDi and PDP-11 were rated as two of the operating systems least able to suck by the members of Alt.Sysadmin.Recovery, so there. (with either version of Windows being at the top, given the dubious distinction of being able to suck golf balls through a garden hose.) I think SCO was second. (which shows that even some versions of Unix are awful.) BOFH OS, (Bastard Operator From Hell, for those not in the know) a fictional operating system, was given a lovelace rating of -1, and was the only operating system on the list that didn't suck. However, with a negative score, it meant it blows. So either way, you can't win. :)
You don't see an American government developed Linux either. Tell me, if the American feds developed an "official" government OS what *do* you think they'd call it?
Star Spangled, Red White and Blue, The Washington, The Betsy Ross, none of these look to weird for the critters in Congress to name things.
Penguins
Do
Not
Fly!
Win2000 doesn't suck
Does to!
I read through the first half or so of the comments here, and I didn't see even one single moron shrieking hysterically about coerced abortions, not to mention a shockingly low incidence of knee-jerk xenophobia! What the fuck is up?! I thought this was Slashdot for God's sake! Let's get moving here! I was hoping for a discussion totally dominated by paranoid right-wing adolescents (e.g. ESR) who've never been farther from Podunk than the next whistle stop, and who therefore know everything there is to know about the world. But that's just not what I'm seeing here.
What gives?
And why not? Red is the color of the Chinese flag. The national anthem is "The East is Red."
The most popular flavor of Linux is "Red Hat," (which is a pretty stupid name right there).
So the Chinese Government takes a copy of Red Hat, tweaks it, and calls it Red Flag. It actually looks kind of obvious to me.
NT
why is this marked "insightful"? he obviously didnt even read the article.
Last I checked, Canada was still bigger. China has the largest population, though.
Does to!
To what?
But this is wonderful. There is hope left in the bottom of Pandora's Box. A billion Chinese can't be wrong! This is a real knife-thrust into the heart of Bill Gates. This is good.
Sadly, this won't help us against the Macs that China buys, because they'll come pre-installed with daemonic possession. But unless Steve Jobs starts sending imacs to Chinese schoolchildren, this sounds like a tremendous step toward world domination. Where China has gone, how can India not soon follow? And that will be two billion Linux users! That'll teach Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and Bill Joys that resistance is futile! The thundering beaks will not bow down.
All good news has a sooted lining. There's one thing I'm very afraid of. I was really hoping that the USA goverment would come to this same decision, banning Microsoft and closed source. I thought I had a good argument that the current monoculture of "Anybody as long as it's Microsoft" in the Fed was a serious threat to national security, not to mention a bone-chilling smack against economic competition. I thought we could go somewhere with this. But now we're fucked. With the ChinaComms embracing the freedom of the frisky penguin, I see the USA intentionally doing precisely the opposite thing for no other reason than distance themselves from the Reds. It doesn't make sense, but they've done it before.
If I had to choose for the ferocious Penguin to smash some tired old Windows in just one world government, it wouldn't be the ChinaComms. It would be the USA, because that's much closer to home. As it is, the one seems to preclude the other.
Maybe we can redirect a flock of marauding penguins to take up residents in the Straits of Formosa. The ChinaComms are always mistrustful of their rich capitalist rebels in Taiwan. Perhaps by conquering Taiwan, the Penguin can lurk as a meme virus, a negative status symbol that will eventually confuse the ChinaComms about their Penguin decision.
You don't see an American government developed Linux either.
And I hope it stays that way.
Why should Chinese people have code not in Chinese? We suffer your stupid English code too many years. It is time that code is written in dominant world language: CHINESE!
I'd expect something along the lines of: "Item #72376238512384 (Software, Operating System, Linux)"
I think China banning W2k (if true) in the government ministries is for pragmatic reasons. They can save licensing fees in installation and client access, more fees in endless upgrade cycle, and hardware upgrades. China is a big developing country, so upgrading would be a very heavy burden. Perhaps they also don't trust W2k as they can't verify whether it has backdoors or not. If there is, US could easily paralyse computer systems in times of hostility.
As the ban is restricted to government ministries, I think this would promote choice rather than hinder it, because now if a software company want to sell their product to the government, they have to port their product to Linux (thus easily *nix). So while the private sector still have the freedom to choose whatever OS they want, this would help promoting choice by making software company making their software available on at least two platforms.
SCMP - South China Morning Post is an English newspaper in Hong Kong Special Administrative Region, China.
To what?
To hell with Win2K!
An American government official, ( sorry, I can't dredge exactly who out the wetware), once commented:
"In Russia the papers only print the governments lies. Here it's different, we can't get the papers to quote our lies accurately."
A hot tip for you, the media in China is totally unlike our own. Misprinting a lie is a big no no, and printing anything at all without permission is a hanging offence.
China would never ban the GPL. It's too well suited to their natures. It stops the filthy capitalist pigs like Bill Gates from getting a foot hold by liberating slaveware and returning it to the people.
"America is a God Damned piece of shit!"
The above is America bashing. The previous post, if you look at it closly dosn't resemble this one in the least.
Do you troll the web just looking for the flimsiest excuse to flame someone for America bashing?
Standing up for a country other than America isn't bashing. Saying you like Macs/Amiga/Linux isn't MS bashing.
"I like Kenya/Macs/Amiga/linux."
That's not bashing, it's just proactive support.
"I don't like America/Macs/Amiga/Linux."
Even THAT'S not bashing, it's a personal statement
.
"America/Macs/Amiga/Linux Sucks!!!!"
Now *that's* bashing.
See the difference? If not, you are the one in need of help.
No, I don't remember "Jesux". What is it? Some catholic thing?
Um, no... especially Red Hat 6.1 -- it just plain sucks ass. Mandrake or Corel? Maybe.
Are the MS WINx operating systems banned because they contain mechanisms to support clandestinely surveilling what the user does and ship that gathered info to someone over the 'net?
Short trip.
Lovers of freedom should cheer at this development.
The bureaucrats in the Politbureau and their apparatchiks in the secret police will stumble along on their teletypes and command lines, trying to keep up with the freedom fighters and dissidents on their fast Windows systems.
What better solution in the fight against tyranny is there than to hobble the tyrants with Unix-1989 technology?
You really should start taking some prozac or something. Your the type of person to reply to a post becuase the poor fellow who wrote it spelled a word wrong! Why don't you just relax and not take every word you read so seriously!!!
And there's the rub... Inter operable. The governments of the world dictate all sorts of details in this space. For example, NTSC/PAL, line voltage, gasoline formulation, telephone technology, etc. It is clearly a matter of any nation's public interest to dictate such standards.
You might say this can be done at a lower level, and theoretically it could. But, as Microsoft Office has shown, such low level standards are so entirely foreign to competitive market pressures. Hence, working at lower levels is often unworkable in practice.
Ok, so you throw up TCP as an example of a "workable" low level standard. Fine, now extrapolate that to every type of data interchange. You'll find it's entirely difficult to dictate all key portions of national digital person-to-person communications platform, without nailing said platform by name. If you try, you end up in a state where the standards remove most opportunities for companies to maintain stable market share. Running a real company without a stable market share is nearly impossible.
The problem with high level specifications is that they limit advancement of the art. Indeed, we see this trouble with the roll out of HDTV. It's a major pain. But that pain follows because it's problematic to force the population through a process of dispose and re-invest. Software has few tangible re-investment costs, particularly when the process is one of progressive refinement to an existing base.
While on the state of the art issue, I'd submit that computer science hasn't advanced in any great degree for many years. 20 years ago, we had much of what we have today in terms of software. The market has sold, and resold, the same tired science over and over again. 95% of the "innovation" going on is developing new software to either lock-in, or work around, some vendor or anothers market share. The only thing really undergoing advancement is hardware capacity, enabling us to actually use software methods that were put forth, but unworkable, in the past. The treadmill simply isn't in the public interest, advancement is. If there is little true advancement going on, it makes sense to step off of the treadmill. As soon as the treadmill stops paying, people may again look to advance the art.
At the end of the day, a nation's choosing Linux is just as sound as the US choosing NTSC TV. It's "good enough" by any measure and setting a standard is such a compelling demand for the common good. Choosing Linux removes the treadmill effect, while keeping the ability to advance the art of software, at a very low re-investment cost. The case is actually quite compelling on a national policy level. It pretty much sucks if you're a present day software vendor, or an employee locked into one or another of the treadmill style skill sets.
well now thats thats over, does anyone who actually read the article care to comment?
Umm, you got the "5" part right, but China is one FIFTH of the worlds population, not 50%.
The UN claims that the world hit 6 billion population sometime about the end of the year, that would make the current margin for error on that figure pretty small.
China has an estimated population of 1.2 billion last I checked. One fifth exactly.
If you feel any embaressment over this perhaps it will make you feel better to look at all the other people telling you that 1.2 billion, is one SIXTH of six billion and realize they can't do simple math in their heads whereas all you did was get the right number but the wrong scale.
Maybe you should take your own advice.
>Sends shivers down my spine. That's for sure.
I guess it would if you're an Microsoft Astroturfer. The rest of us could really care less.....
>Cut it out with the relentless Windows bashing, Win2000 doesn't suck.
You guys said the same thing about NT too remember? Time proved you wrong on that also....
>Even opponents of Micro$oft have to admit that this is a stupendous
>gaff by the Chinese. If they want to encourage indigenous software
>development, their programmers need access to the most widely-used
>operating systems.
Eh? If they intend to use this for among various departments it makes sense to use something they can count on things being stable for a number of years which is something you can't count on from Microsoft with it's file-format-of-the-particular-software-package and other stunts they've pulled. There's another Y2k-type problem out there and it has to do with data stored on older computers and file formats/filesystems. Linux supports this a hell of a lot better than Windows does.
Hrm... you say your taking chinese, and you don't know what suiran wo xi.huan zhong-wen, ke.shi wo jue.de ying.wen haishi hen hao :) means? And then you call me An idiot.
Although I love Chinese, I still think english is good
I've never said anything bad about Chinese, other then that allot of the sylables sound the same, and that is true, especialy for someone not born and bread on tonal languages
"Suble Mind control? why do html buttons say submit?",
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Well, obviously simplified is going to be easyer to read then traditional for someone who's grown up using it.
:)
I'm learning both traditional and simplified for the first time at age 19. Traditional, I think really is more easy to understand then simplified, at least to me. I won't dissagree about writing though
"Suble Mind control? why do html buttons say submit?",
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Red Flag? It's clearly obvious. The commies are devising an operating system to compete with us capitalistic pigs. Free read/write rights for all.
(Though the read rights are only good on howto's and FAQ's, they may never touch executables, that's for the government super users).
Being that China will soon be our primary enemy I think this is a good thing. Instead of actually getting anything done they'll be trying to get their kernels to recompile to support the new party mandated modems (can't dial outside China), or trying to figure out which X best promotes socialist ideals (of course, the only color scheme is red background with yellow text).
Since the Chinese are a bunch of lazy and cheap mofos when it comes to software (they're the worlds best software pirates), I imagine even if the dimwits in charge of China did try to foist this on their people they'll find that they'd just rather use something easier that'll play Age of Empires II (you can play the Chinese, you know).
I'm a Chinese Dutchman (groetjes aan iedereen die dit leest) and I think it's a better idea if YOU think before you give a comment. My nephew is a Chinese programmer (graduated from Beijing University) and your post seems nothing more than another stereotype view of China. What do you actually *know* about *today's* China and today's Chinese economy? Nothing? Just as I thought. China has a very open market and is already doing billions in investments with Western countries. The government encourages technology and invests billions in the Chinese education and research. Yes, there's still a political barrier, but that has nothing to do with studying technology. Technically it's impossible to prohibit a country of a billion people to get access to source-code. Chinese programmers are very open-minded people, as well as a lot of American programmers (I have relatives living in New York). It's not really clever to give information about something you don't know enough about...and even less clever to tell other people to think before they write if you don't think yourself. I can imagine it's not a comfortable feeling for the nice Americans to be given a bad name by posts such as yours.
:)
Cheers everyone
....I always said MS was a threat to US national security....China was able to grab secrets from US systems running NT....Russian hackers owned DoD networks for the past year...makes sense that China learned from us that MS is NOT the way to go if you want to make a secure network environment. They'll be perfectly happy to have ths USG run MS systems, makes their intelligence collection efforts that much easier.....ciao!
Dude,
China has 1.1-1.2 billion people!
That's 1/6 of the world's 6 billion people!
BTW A very small fraction of people in China will
use computers. Most of their infrastructure is still based on paper for government agencies.
China is a very poor country were over 80% makes
$200 US per month, hardly enough to live on,
forget about buying a computer, etc...
Most of the Chinese market is in cities like
Beijing, Shangai, and Guangzhu. Total population
50 million. Less than 40% of these city citizens can afford computers.
The chinese market is not 3 billion, not a billion
but a mere 50 million (at most).
Remember things are not always as they seem.
Don't let the cool skyscrapers in big chinese cities fool you, they were designed, financed, and owned by foreigners, for their use, and the use of communist officials, not for the use of the people. Just like with those 5* hotels in Cuba where Cubans are not allowed to enter.
But the more I think about it, the less happy I am.
First, I have doubts that the Chinese gov't will actually pay attention to the GPL. Which would be a problem, since it would tend to weaken the GPL (and thus Linux) more generally. After all, if China gets away with it, other people will be thinking that they can get away with it too.
Second, having the gov't impose their choice on everybody undermines the concept of Open Source. It's one thing for the Chinese gov't to support Linux in the hope of supporting indigenous software development -- it's quite another thing to have them requiring that Linux be used.
Of course, this could all turn out to be a misunderstanding. Nothing in China is actually True until some major official gets quoted -- minor officials and "ministry sources" seem to spout off regularly and nothing happens . . .
i think using free software encourages self reliance and some form of independance (you can come up with your own solution, you can fix it, you dont have to wait for someone else) for some, even a responsibility to report bugs or not complain. this is something MS dont like since they want china to give them lots of money and dependence, thus leading to more money. alot like a drug pusher. is this close to the perception of MS in china?
Security may be a factor, but maybe not the way you think. The NSA's record in human rights, believe it or not, is much better than that of the Communist Party in China, or the Army there. If the NSA announced that it was creating its own version of Linux to be mandated for people in the US to use, we'd all go crazy looking for the back door, which may be hard if their version doesn't have source available. (I guess we'll have to wait and see about that).
Granted, they probably wouldn't be interested in eavesdropping on the average US college student, but they are targeting this distribution at people whose rights they respect a lot less than the US government agencies, with all their faults, respect ours.
(currently testing something about signatures here)
When you get right down to it, this argument sounds like you're saying that the persecution the American Indians received in the old days justifies what China is doing today, or that we shouldn't criticize it. I wonder, have you actually gone out and started asking any American Indians how they felt about that argument?
(currently testing something about signatures here)
Hold on a second; didn't Bruce Schneier look at the alleged NSA_Key stuff and conclude that it wasn't a back door, but merely a way to substitute your own system for windows if one wanted to?
Wouldn't that make Windows slightly more secure than it was, too?
The faults of Windows are many; there's no need to invent phony ones, and it makes us look bad.
(currently testing something about signatures here)
I think you're confusing the 40 bit key length with a back door; a short key length does not constitute a "back door" in and of itself. And AFAIK Microsoft does not rely on export subsidies to sell Windows. Finally, the NSA can't stop compliant-with-regulations software from being exported just because it doesn't have a secret back door. The regulations are a lot more specific than that.
(currently testing something about signatures here)
You are right. But more people speak Chinese as their native language than any other in the world.
Chinese is not as hard to learn as most non-Chinese seem to think. I'm learning it. It rocks.
And for those Chinese who are obviously reading this (I've seen your comments) please don't get offended too much at the ignorant Americans who want to blast your country for kicks. It's a compliment to get criticized by idiots.
Red Flag Linux reminds me of socialist realist art.
Raise the Red Banner, and let a thousand open source projects bloom!
Ted Stevens Release:
contains closed source kernel modules:
cryptography (with backdoor), web censorship.
Displays anti-drug mesage on login.
The private sector is free to continue pirating^H^H^H^H^H^H purchasing Windows for its use.
Your use of the word pirate in this context is confusing. Consider alternatives such as "making unauthorized copies of" or "sharing". See http://www.fsf.org/philoso phy/words-to-avoid.html#Piracy for details.
If REALLY you think that GPL or the BSDL holds any water in China then you must be smokin some good shit. If copyrights have no power at all in China why should the GPL? You can walk in to a store there and pick up the newest bootleg copy of MS's new OS and some bootleg DVD's wile your at it for $5. And the government does not care! Just look what happened to MS when they tryed to get China to do something about it.
I have to return some videotapes...
While this is basically _good_ news for the linux people we should not forget that China is still totalitarian regime. Users being forced to use Linux will be no good at all for the community. BTW, it's mentioned that they use their own Linux modified by chinese researchers. I am just wondering what these changes are... *sigh*
now _that's_ frightening. I thought microsoft
was the worst imaginable entity to trust to
write my operating system, but you proved me
wrong. If the U.S. gov't made an OS, you KNOW
they'd find a way to make it closed source.
For national security reasons, of course.
my goodness. China's population is closer to 1.2 billion, not 1.5 billion or 3 billion (50% of world's population as stated in parent post)
0.1 billion is a big number of people to estimate wrongly.
in any case, don't underestimate the buying power of the Chinese. They own a BIG HEAP of US T-bonds. Also, while most of them still can't afford the proverbial piss pot, at the rate that their economy is growing, give them 20 years and extrapolate the shrinking cost of computers and a sizeable proportion of them *will* have computers.
Looks like the high and mighty United States has a Linux competitor....but seriously, I can't say I blame China's government for dumping Windows. They're showing a lot more sense than most Western governments.....=)
Nope, there are only 30 or so keywords in C. Of course, the libraries have more functions, but how much does a knowledge of English really help you remember what malloc or ioctl means?
I doubt it, but Perl supports this.
If China was banning GPG, what would your opinion be? A government ban on a software product is _wrong_. Doesn't matter if it's a ban on Windows, Back Orifice, GNU/Linux or PGP. This will do no one any good. But what do you expect out of a communist regime that has killed many millions?
TomG
If I recall correctly some members of the European Union are trying to get software declared a "service" rather than a good because there are no restrictions on the tariffs that can be imposed on a service. They are doing this so they can impose high tariffs on US software so they can try to foster the software industry in Europe which is still far inferior to that in the United States in many areas.
Of course this doesn't apply to just Windows, rather all software. It would be important to note that these tariffs would probably impact copies of Linux sold in boxes.
BTW: thanks for a coherent argument (even if you don't think mine is), this is why I read /.
:-)
Same here! I enjoyed arguing the point with you as well. BTW - I didn't find your arguments incoherent at all, I merely disagree strongly with them and found many of the words you put into my mouth to be inaccurate. An intelligent debate is always fun, no matter how strongly one disagrees with their opponent.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Actually, I should have made it more clear that I was responding to the first crop of comments that I saw, not to the article (that's why I said "come on people..."). In the first group of comments I saw alot of people saying that banning W2K in China would bring about an increase in software contributions to Linux, etc. They seemed to be saying that Linux being forced on users is ok because it's Linux, and that is totalitarianism - even if that isn't what the Chinese government is actually doing.
----
"Oh, bother," said Pooh, as he hid Piglet's mangled corpse.
Come on people, you can philosophize all day about how this is good for Linux or how good Linux will be for China, but this is a case where a government is telling its citezens what technology to use - there is NOTHING good about that. Imagine a law like that being passed in the [US,Canada,Europe,Australia,YourCountry]... imagine the law requires Windows. Puts a different spin on things doesn't it?
You can't excuse totalitarian policies just because the [monarch,dictator,emperor] happens to be on your side today.
----
"Oh, bother," said Pooh, as he hid Piglet's mangled corpse.
Its really up to the consumers-
if pirated W2K helps people make money
or a home-grown OS helps them better, then
the people will be deciding.
Incidently, a domestic clone computer company
is beating the pants off of foreign suppliers
because it understands its customers better.
I actually did read the article. It says W2K is banned from the governement. Neither my comment nor the article mention the Chinese people (but lots of other comments do).
Anyway, it doesn't matter, it's still a bad thing. Everybody (including Chinese governement IT managers) should have freedom of choice. And if a manager comes to the conclusion W2K is the right choice for him, he must be able to buy it.
This is your sig. There are thousands more, but this one is yours.
In the Open Source community, we always talk about freedom of choice, but it seems we drop all our principles when Linux is forced upon somebody.
Guys, this is bad. IMHO, we should make a statement to the public, saying we simply want W2K to enter this Chinese market - freedom of choice is simply the cornerstone of the Open Source community. We cannot take pride on an act of cencorship. period.
This is your sig. There are thousands more, but this one is yours.
I hope Red Flag linux will be downloadable/ installable on US PCs. I'd like to see what it could withstand on a lan... just a thought :)
Alright, AC.. I'll take your bait.
Prove it. Publish your results so we can look at them. Just cause you looked at the dashboard of a new car, you're saying it's better than another?
Maybe it just has a better dashboard.
Pan
I said no... but I missed and it came out yes.
The difference is that you don't get shares of china when it goes IPO.. you just get stuck with the tax bill.
pan
I said no... but I missed and it came out yes.
Informative? I read this as a joke, a funny one at that...
Imagine how much it would cost for a half-billion WinNT CALs (do you really think MS would give them commies more than a 50% discount?), let alone full Win98+Office installations!
...but it looks like half the people here didn't actually read the story.
:).
China is not banning W2k. China is banning W2k for government use, in much the same way that there was talk of W2k being banned in Germany.
Also, according to the article, they're mandating that the government standardize on Red Flag Linux. This is sort of like the library I work at (a state agency) mandating that I use NT4 on their machines.
There is no freedom issue here, that I can see. If the US government came out tomorrow and said that no government agency would be allowed to purchase W2k, and that all government agencies would be required to run Linux, not a single lawyer could raise a constitutional hand, and i don't hesitate to predict that there would be a great rejoicing right here on this site. The PRC does the same thing, and this is what you get. Hypocritical bastards.
The sad part is, nobody is bothering to really debate any of the interesting questions raised by this:
1) Will there be exception vouchers? No operating system has thus far shown itself to be the best tool for every job. (My Take(tm): idunno, but it's an important question. also, if there are vouchers, will Linux become the PRCs equivalent of Ada, where everybody just gets a voucher?)
2) Will the cost savings from purchasing software and administrative savings (if nothing else, from the effects of standardization itself) outweigh the costs incurred by not using the OS used by most of the rest of the world?
(MT: You could save a loooooot of money. Maybe enough to make homegrowing a lot of apps worthwhile. I wonder if Chinese programmers will pay as much attention to i18n as American programmers? I'm going to be missing out on a lot of apps if they do. Maybe they'll be more like the European programmers, tho
3) Will the PRC honor the GPL?
(Maybe.)
4) Will the PRC insert little bits of government-friendly code into their version, counting on the same OOB mentality that gave use IE popularity to ensure that their versions get used, instead of newly-compiled versions without pro-PRC code being installed? (pro-PRC meaning that the code is for some prolly-malevolent reason more desirable to the government than the "stock" code)
(Probably.)
Also, if anybody else calls the PRC government "communist" again, I'm gonna hurl. Go out and buy a f*cking poly-sci book, and then consult any basic fact-source about the PRC today. "Fascist?" Sure. "Authoritarian?" No problem. "Communist?" An insult to the ideals of communism, regardless of whether or not you agree with those ideals.
(I personally think that communism is stupid and bad. I think the same about authoritarian types of government. I also make some token effort to differentiate between the two. To do anything less is just inelegant, and therefore offensive.)
-k. ^-^ ^D
5) Will there be a huge US/Microsoft backlash against this? The *potential* market in the PRC is huge.
(We're not looking at another Opium War (although the analogy between W2k and powerful foreign narcotics has undeniable appeal, no?), but there could be repercussions.)
6) If Microsoft were a PRC company, don't you think that the US would be a bit leery of having all of their computers run on their software?
(*shrug*)
-k. ^-^ ^D
Disclaimer: I got my first newspaper job at age 12 and have worked at four newspapers in three different chains over the last 15 or so years. (Oh, yeah, this post is also very much off-topic.)
That out of the way, newspapers admit mistakes just about every day. In 1999 alone, we published 388 corrections according to our inhouse story database. That's up from 321 in 1998.
Factual corrections are almost always run. Spelling or grammer errors are never reported unless the error made the story inaccurate.
A mid-sized daily newspaper generates around one meg of ASCII text a day. According to wc, yesterday's newspaper was 152,965 words. Those words were generated in fewer than 24 hours for the most part. I would bet that those 152k words had fewer errors than a novel of the same size.
The fact of the matter is, for writing history on the fly against tight deadlines and often harsh conditions (have you ever had to attend a county sewage meeting?), newspapers are far more accurate than they have any right to be.
Granted, when we screw up on A1, we will likely stick the correction at the bottom of A3. But, the correction is published.
So, in summary, be glad you live in a country that has a free press and give us a break because we are right far more often than we are wrong. Who could ask for more?
InitZero
Officials at several government ministries said they were unaware of such a policy.
The story is posted by a Chinese newspaper, and we all know how informed our own media is...
And the government has any better an idea as to what is going on? Right.
In China, more or less, the newspaper is run by the government. Since this story isn't that outlandish, I'd say the truth factor has got to be pretty high.
InitZero
From the wired article
BEIJING -- Software giant Microsoft Corp
has run into more bad publicity in China
with a newspaper reporting that its latest
Windows 2000 operating system will be
barred throughout the government.
Microsoft and Chinese officials on
Thursday denied the report, which
appeared in Wednesday's edition of the
Yangcheng Evening News.
Returned Peace Corps IT Volunteer
Last I heard, it was nearer 25% of the world's population - of course, that's still 1.5 billion people...
Tim
It's official. Most of you are morons.
I'm glad I hit relaod before posting pretty much exactly the same comment :o)
:o)
:o)
Also, given that this is (if the rumours are true), the Chinese government dictating policy to itself, it can only be a good thing (at least for China):
1. It will promote local business (the distro of Linux is produced in China (presumably by Chinese programmers))
2. It wil help reduce governmental costs
3. The money they do spend (which all comes from taxes, don't forget) will go back into the Chinese economy.
4. Even if the money saved isn't added to, say, the education or healthcare budget, at least they'll be creating/securing jobs for Chinese programmers
5. Even if any modifications that are made to the kernel/apps aren't released back to the Open Source community, at least you can say "Well, its good enough for the Chinese government" the next time you're asked to support your pro-Linux arguments with more than just low cost and rock solid stability
Everybody wins; even M$ doesn't really lose as (apparently) most of their software that's used in China is pirated anyway
Tim
It's official. Most of you are morons.
You make it sound as if us VB Programmers were some kind of Junkie, which I assure you, is not the case-... wait a minute, my compiler just crashed: I forgot to renew the license on a proprietary control.
Now, where was I? Oh yes, I find it reprehensible of you to consider us as addicts dependent on some closed source slaver who only wants to bleed us dry-... Hold on...
Hmm, it seems to make my vendor's updated control work, I have to get my company to license the Microsoft Data Engine (MSDE). Okay, done...
In no way whatsoever are we shackled by the-... Ooh! Yes! Microsoft's $150/hour tech support line no longer has me on hold! Gotta go!
S. Kevin Chang
Database Design and Programming
Disney Televentures
Burbank, CA.
"Twice half-assed makes an ass whole." --Solomon K. Chang
Seems to me that Chinese government finally saw the importance of developing their own software industry to insure that nation's survival in the coming years. If we are to believe the pundits du jour, having your own software and hardware will be as important as having your own tanks and planes.
The euphoria of 1990s (free trade, peace on the planet, blah-blah) is gone. The Cold War continues, and the weapon of choice is called "technology control/denial".
Oh, and of course the chinese government will definatly allow the users to grab the clean source and recompile it all, right? Cause they're such an open government and they let people practice whatever religious and social beliefs they believe in, like Falun Gong. *chuckles* You are of course , assuming that they will LET people recompile stuff in and out.
The Chinese written language is one of the world's most brilliant cultural achievements. How can anyone argue that? But the sad thing is, the PRC government instituted a simplified character set, thus diminishing the visual beauty of the language and making it that much harder for the current generation to read the old texts.
So what your ancestors wrote 2000 years ago is not as easy to read as it was a generation ago, my friend.
As for banning W2K: how this can possibly benefit software developers in China is beyond me. Encouraging a domestic piracy industry is the most likely result--if people can't buy it, they'll steal it.
it's = "it is"; its = possessive. E.g., it's flapping its wings.
The NSA, etc. *does* have a history of breaking software for non-US markets. Lotus Notes et al. One can hardly believe that W2K is *not* broken in some way.
If I (or you) were running the NSA I'd make damn sure that there would be at least 10 unrelated back doors in W2K before MS got $.01 in export subsidies or an export licence. This would allow easy access through the entire life of the product given that some holes will be discovered.
The NSA key by itself is probably not a back door by itself, but used in conjunction with other parts it may be. With all 29 million lines of closed source, who can tell for sure?
IMHO it is irresponsible for certain departments of *any* Non-US government to use W2K, for information deemed sensitive.
-B
There is no real difference btwn 40bits posing as 128 and a back door--security is compromised.
Also, ever heard of a "foreign sales corporation?" The WTO ruled against the US tax break of which Microsoft was a big benificiary. It is designed to assist companies to export products. It is also used by successful exporters too (can't blame 'em either.) Why did MS sponser the Seattle WTO conference? Hmmmm....Tough luck about the riots.
-B
No kidding! Who here in their right mind actually thinks that whatever Linux becomes inside the borders of China will EVER see the light of day outside those borders?
If anything, I'd be pissed that all the work the programers put into Linux will help benefit China! Great! Not only do they get all your work for free, they're going to take it, modify it, and say "screw you" when everyone outside of China says "remember to release the source code".
I'd be willing to bet that more people are able to speak English then chinese. Remember, English is also the offical language of India, witch also has over a billion people.
:)
and dont forget that in many nations English is taught as an offical second language, including China.
In fact, in order to go to colage in china you have to be able to speak english, most linux hackers are colage students/graduates, or at least on the way to collage, and i'd be willing to bet the case will be the same there.
If they already speak english, then I'd think that they'd continue to use the language the code was written in (linus was finish, and he still wrote in english, right?)
suiran wo xi.huan zhong-wen, ke.shi wo jue.de ying.wen haishi hen hao
"Suble Mind control? why do html buttons say submit?",
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
uh, china is mandating that there be no w2k in the government people can still use whatever OS they want.
"Suble Mind control? why do html buttons say submit?",
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
you are shockingly stupid.
the USSR broke up, but it mainly lost a smal persentage of there land in eastern europe.
"Suble Mind control? why do html buttons say submit?",
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Microsoft denies China ban on Windows 2000
Yumpee
Except that newspapers never admit any mistakes. They just never mention it again. Offically newspaper never openly point out other newspaper's mistake, but everyone of them belong to different gangs. (Yeah, when I was in GuangZhou, I had read news that Madonna had gotten AIDS. Sometime you don't realized they are national enquirer quality.)
Although the YangCheng Everning News (Guang Zhou's nickname's City of Lamb, pronounce YangCheng) is very big. Kind of NY Daily News's respective scale and target audiance. I hope it's just a simply mistake. Banning a big capitalist campany's product is very very wrong fundamentally. Especailly in Canton. I though we don't have the zealotry of south korean?
Chen Ye
Let's take your argument and run with it. If their monthly salary is $200, it will take only 2 months salary to buy a computer (with or without MSN's rebate :) What you don't realize is that none of the Chinese will buy a car anytime soon, because 1) the road condition can't afford so much car 2) the dense population makes every person very close to his/her workplace. We have bicycle remember. 3) Mass transit, subways are building.
I havs seen so much Chinese FDU that I don't bother the clearing the flams anymore. A lot of time the flamer simply got the number wrong DESPITE THE FACT THAT THEY CAN STILL ACCUSE CHINA WITH THE CORECT NUMBER. US wants a enemy, fine with me.
Here is some personal experience for you. When I was going to high school, I got a 286 (that's right after "June the Fouth", I remember it) Soon upgrade to color moniter, harddrive. (You can't see porn with b&w mind you) I think there were 4-5 people I know in two classes has computer at that time. 2,3 years later I buy a 386 upgrade to fucking 4meg memoy (Sold the 286 to somebody at 70% of the original price, my mom wasn't happy about. What she didn't know was we got a bargin.) I remember I pay goddamn 200rmb to add that extra 2 meg because I need it to play a game. Not a real computer geek mind you. That was between dos 5.0 and 6.X By that time there were err... 40% of my classmates has computer. Some of them can even play vcd. Bootleg cd were flooding. I was in GuangZhou. My parents were by no mean employers of private own industry. My father was the manager of a government-own calender publishing factory.
My high school was a pretty conservative "good" school (as in, one of the 10 best in Guang Zhou). Everyone can get in the school if you pass that elementary school final "Grand Exam". About 5% to 10% of them gets in the school with lower score than the cut line. For example, some of them are childrens of staff in air force Guang Zhou Base. Of course, you score has to be close. Otherwise you can't keep up with the courses. Since we (the school) has affliation with the air base, we get to go "2 week bootcamp" in their facility. For small stuff like this, every principle has to figure out his network for the school him/herself. Basically what I'm saying is that my high school doens't have a lot of rich kids whose parents are actually work for themselves (actually, I only know one.) and still a lot of them can afford a computer.
I went back for a visit 2 year after I came to NY, (1996?) I thought 80% of them has computer. What you don't realize is that in China there's a lot of thing you can't buy. So when people have money, they will probable buy computer, afte vcr, tv, fridge, camcoder and now dvd. It's not Chinese has same kind of technology fetish as the japanese, but high tech (and education) is always overrated in developing country and especially in china. They can't afford or don't need internet (local internet usd$5 per month btw) they just buy the computer for the novelty of it. Yeah you heard it right, technology has become a novelty. People can't do too much religion anyway, what else can they workship? (People in third world never get to see the ugly side of new tech ala DVIX & BETAMAX, new format war always battle it out in US before going out to conquer the world.)
Chen Ye
it's bound to be exploited by people who don't share our and Linus' Christian-Judaic values.
;-P )
Damn them heathens!
IKIHBT,IJLS "Christian-Judaic values"
(anyway, I thought the GPL was inherently communist
--
Even if it's false, it's an interesting item to discuss. Let's think about it: we have a major country with huge population, under-developed (by Western standards) and trying to catch up fastly. It has a non-Western culture, complicated writing system, strong traditions, an enourmous talented set of students.
What you would pick as computer systems? Something that is highly configurable for a non-Western world, low cost and redistributable, solid, without any unresolvable dependence on foreign technology. Software that can be adapted to a so-different world. We're talking about the basic values of OpenSource software against closed, American company-owned software.
So, the world has to admit that in any complicated, not-out-of-the-box situation OpenSource is better, more configurable, more easy to adapt to different needs, and more secure since you can look at the source. This is the bottom line of the story, that big organizations/government are getting tired to rely on software that they cannot check/control/adapt. Even if this story isn't true, it may be true in year 2000.
"It is more complicated than you think" (The Eighth Networking Truth from RFC 1925)
Exactly, and I actually live in the US.
Who shot JFK? Who killed Marilyn Monroe? What is really going on in the Arizona/Nevada desert?
We are told exactly what we should know regardless of what the truth might be.
Look at this Echelon thing. The Y2K media frenzy. Who in the world is NOT being told "exactly what they should know (regardless of what the truth might be)"
What he Should have said was "Governments" period, no "their government" or "governments like these" but alas, he did not.
However, I would agree with him on one point, if I changed his way of saying it. I wouldn't trust any OS made by any government to not have back doors for snooping, but then again, I personally wouldn't care, what are they going to see "Oh.. he reads slashdot, oh, he sends emails to family and co-workers." so???
---The proceeding comments were not paid for by the following advertisers.
Most of the population of China would rather have a car than a Linux running computer. They would rather save for the next flood/famine than spend time trying to configure their XWindows.
Don't get excitied over the prospect of a billion newbies running around the Internet buying books from Amazon either. Its a poor country. Think about it.
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
"There is a war going on... it's about who controls the information."
As all nations will eventually discover (and many already have), you can't control the information on the computer parts (hardware and software) that is produced in another country.
China has chosen to use Linux to start, whatever major changes they happen make to it, I am sure they will not share. It makes sense though, for reasons that are obvious to most of us, they won't want to use Windohs.
Reasons like:
1. Security
2. User Support
3. Hardware Support (How long will it be before Win will run that brand new Chinese video card?)
4. Can you trust the software of your enemy?
Now the reasons to use Linux:
1. It's there. (It wont require them to spend tons ofmoney developing an OS of their own)
2. Free Beer. (Who can turn it down?)
3. Can easily be investigated and customized. (GPL is more lenient towards private customizations than FreeBSD's licensing)
4. They probably already have *NIX programmers around.
5. Not to mention the reliabilty, yadda, yadda, yadda.
Devil Ducky
MY peers would get out of jury duty.
informative - Serving to inform; providing or disclosing information; instructive. Tending to increase knowledge or dissipate ignorance.
uninformative - Not tending to inform or clarify.
Therefore, an article that is factually inaccurate is not informative, but is uninformative. For instance, this comment is informative.
Chris Hagar
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." - Thomas Jefferson
It isnt a rumor, I just watched CNBC Asia coverage while you all slept. They interviewed the local Sun guy about it. He pointed out 90% of software in Asia is pirate, so Linux makes sense. They are not banning win2k in China, just in the Chinese government. It is economically sensible for developing countries to put up with some disadvantages in features to save what for them is a load of cash for an american product. Will be amusing to think of those foreign contractors in china getting "sorry cant read" messages from government departments when they email out ms office 2000 documents complete with kitchen sink window controls buried in them, or send powerpoint presentations off and find nobody looks at them. Rather disingenuously, the Sun guy said Sun thinks operating systems should be free, I'll tell that to the sun rep next time they add solaris licensing charges onto the next sun box we buy.
Myself, my Hoax Radar went off the scale when I read the bit about the 'Red Flag Linux' distribution. That was funny. :)
This is like saying, 'Of course, we always suspected Linux was communist, what's with the RED hat?' Be thankful Linux wasn't born under MacCarthysm, we'd all be branded communists now!
I'm not so sure this is about user concerns, but I can see this as being (partially) the result of government concerns.
Remember the NSA_key scare in M$ Windows? Perhaps something like this was considered. Proprietary software from a US company in another country; Something like that could be used for spying, no?
Ahh, man! Now I'm gonna get lynched!
Somebody better just learn English. There's no link to a "South China Ministry"....it's to The South China Morning Post, an English language newspaper in Hong Kong.
Oh yeah, don't go holding your breath for the Chinese to abide by the GPL, they tend to operate under the assumption "What's yours is mine, what's mine is mine." LinuxOne anyone???
So what? Most of them don't have a pot to piss in, much less a computer. It's not a situation that's going to change anytime soon.
Bullshit!
So like, the essence of communism is that the gov owns everything, heh? Get your concepts straight. Under communism there's no government. The people are the government. I would say China is nothing but a huge capitalist dictatorship, much like the US nowadays, only not that refined in the manipulation of public opinion.
Viva Communismo!
Actually, the article didn't say they were using Red Hat. It said that they were going to use Red Flag. I read it wrong the first time also.
Quote: "The ministries would instead use 'Red Flag - Linux'"
I think Wah's intent on that "foolish" comment was that we shouldn't be so quick to condemn others from a higher moral ground when our hands are just as dirty. If we're to condemn someone for doing something we have also done, we should not ignore nor hide that fact.
(Personal opinion here)
Should we just keep silent? No.
But we should not keep silent about our own misdeeds either. We should make it publicly known and we should make genuinely sincere reparations in accordance to (what is left of) the peoples we have wronged.
But we do. Time and again, our elected leaders often stand upon the claims of higher moral authority to push their international agenda and quietly sweep the past under the rug.
Sure, there is some admittance to it but nothing real. The US government still refuses to recognize the treaties they have signed.
No one has to take my word for it. I admit I'm a little biased because some of my ancestors were at Wounded Knee. I encourage people stop by one of their local reservations for a tribal meeting and spend the evening learning something from one of the nearly vanquished cultures in this country.
-Vel
As far as I know, there are only two "closed" reservations in the US. One happens to be the Red Lake Band of Chippewa in Northern Minnesota.
v eAmericans/Huron.html
l
Since you are in Illinois (and considering that is a Native American word, I believe), try refining your web search to the Great Lakes region. Usually, reservations are marked on state maps with a nice little orange-brown border.
But here are some sites (this first is in Illinois):
http://www.twingroves.district96.k12.il.us/Nati
This one has bias potential:
http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/medals.htm
Nice one for maps to locate nearby tribes:
http://www.doi.gov/bia/mapslst.html
I'll admit though, I'm not 100% Lakota. Very few are...
-Vel
yup - instant world-wide 25% Linux market share
Just to be perverse, I screwed with /etc/issue:
-----begin /etc/issue----- /etc/issue-----
Microsoft Linux 2000(tm) (ILoveMelissa)
Kernel 2.2.12-20 on an i586
-----end
This machine is actually running Redhat 6.1, by the way. And here is my /etc/lilo.message, which appears whenever I reboot:
-----begin /etc/lilo.message-----
Welcome to MICROSOFT (tm) LINUX 2000 (tm)!
As always, you can rely on Microsoft for innovation! You're now using another unique, patented Microsoft product:
MICROSOFT (tm) LINUX 2000 (tm)
If you have any reason to imagine that the computer you're using is running a stolen, illegally copied, or unauthorized ("bootleg") copy of MICROSOFT (tm) LINUX 2000 (tm), be sure to immediately call 1-800-PIRATES and turn the software thief in to the law! Help stamp out software pirates! They're stealing from YOU!
Simply wait ten seconds to enjoy our new, uniquely powerful MICROSOFT (tm) LINUX 2000 (tm) operating system, or to use another fine MICROSOFT (tm) product, type in "DOS" before the ten-second waiting period ends.
Either way, you'll be enjoying the use of a Licensed MICROSOFT (tm) product, your assurance of the highest quality in personal computer software! Accept no substitutes, use MICROSOFT operating systems! /etc/lilo.message-----
-----end
Hey, Microsoft lawyers! DON'T SUE ME, it's only a JOKE!
Yours WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net
If this story is true ("Red Flag Linux"? sounds pretty dubious to me) might it have something to do with that NSA backdoor that was built into NT 4.0? I mean, if I ran the Chinese government I'd prefer to have the source code for the operating system being used by government agencies, all of it, and I'd get some people I could trust to go over it line by line.
All governments have police forces, and all police forces seem to have a practically biological urge to pry and spy against their subject citizenry. It is a fact of record that the U.S. government has found it necessary both to spy on all my telephone calls and to have access to protected files on my Windows NT server. I expect the Communist Chinese government to be at least as inquisitive, wouldn't you?
So just as the U.S. government built a backdoor into NT, wouldn't you expect the Chinese government to want to build a backdoor into their special Chinese edition of Linux? But how the Hell could they do that at the same time that they release full source code to the general public? Not only does open source make it difficult to conceal a police backdoor in source code, but also, with the compiler that usually accompanies Linux, one can make encryption tools which cripple all that expensive surveillance.
So will the distributors of "Red Flag Linux" follow the provisions of the Gnu Public License. and will the Chinese government allow them to do so? When a Chinese computer user gets a copy of "Red Flag Linux," does he get all the source code, and is he free to redistribute it with no restrictions?
That leads to another question about the GNU license. Would it be permissible under the GPL for me to sell a distribution of Linux without a compiler? It seems to me that merely having source code is pointless if one has nothing to compile it with.
Last, imagine, just as a hypothetical consideration, that a Chinese company starts flagratly violating copyleft; say, they release a binaries-only version of Linux. Do you suppose the WTO would apply trade sanctions against China in response to this violation of copyright? Of course you laugh! Everyone is aware that the WTO serves corporations and only corporations; no other considerations, such as environmental or human-rights issues, have ever applied in their judgments. Where there is no profit lost, the WTO has always remained indifferent. That is precisely what's wrong with the WTO.
Yours WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net
This is simply not true. Consider Linux kernel, GCC, Debian Linux/GNU and other applications and systems I am not aware of - developers make stability and new features coexist. They maintain two versions - stable and unstable. The first is that you know will remain stable and the second has new features creeping into it every two days. Time from time unstable version freezes and becomes the stable one.
Sure, not everybody uses this way, but it's up to developer.
While the linux is superior OS to W2K, enforcing
its usage is not a good way to promote it. Users
should make their own choice based on their needs
and not government policy.
Never trust that a large organization, especially a government, will act in its best interests. If that were the case, we would have no crypto export regulations.
You make a good point. However, you must also consider that a large organisation going over fully to an open source OS is likely to have at least some clue to the advantages of open source.
Do you actually think that China will openly and without any barriers open-source Red Flag Linux?
Large parts of it, yes. It'll be in their interests to do so. Imagine if they made changes to a key component, e.g. the kernel, and kept their changes closed. This would mean they would have to re-apply their changes to every new version of the kernel they wish to embed into Red Flag Linux. Now imagine the same thing, with lots of packages; it'd be a maintenance nightmare.
I keep wondering if this isn't some kind of Millenium joke similar to April's Fool...
some karma... and kinda lukewarm about it.
Red Flag Linux?!? Is that becoming the official Linux for them or something? Guess this is good for Linux.
I hope for some one to come with a distro name Capitalist Linux. Or would that be taking too much from the Linux stock craze? LinuxOne are you listening?
Chinese language is one of the most superior language in the world. It might not shine in the infomation age (that's still debatable), but it certainly shines in a lot other area. While you guys can hardly understand what your ancestors wrote several hundred years ago, we can fully understand what our ancestors wrote 2000 years ago. You know Sun-Tsu? That was writen around that time and it's been taught in a lot of business schools in US nowadays.
Another interesting observation is, if you take a one-inch thick English book and translate it into the "clumsy dumb primitive scripts like Chinese", without loosing information, it will reduce its thickness to at least 3/4 inch if not 1/2 inch. Go figure!
gd
Granted, GB2312 or Big5 should be enough for daily use. But from culture point of view, they are far from enough. I don't know how many charactors CJK Extension B can include but the amount of Chinese charactors could be in 100,000 - 200,000 range. Of course most of them are rarely used.
gd
Oh, come on! Why is everybody hailing this as a good thing?
Just because it's Microsoft doesn't mean it should be BANNED! What ever happened to free speach? Free speach means that one should be allowed to make the wrong choice as well.
If Linux will be big in China, then that's a good thing (tm), but not if people are forced to use it. Knowing human nature, that would probably lead to a W2K underground movement of people writing "IIS ROCKS" in grafitti, and secretly mailing Microsoft money... That would be fun.
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Try out fish, the friendly interactive shell.
I doesn't say they are passing a law banning windows 2k, it says they won't use it in government. Not quite the same thing!
-- You ain't seen me, right?
In both cases everyone contributes to the Great Project without much pay and everything is owned by The People. I think the biggest difference is that in Linux's case this actually works..
But really.. Linux is the perfect OS for China. If only to show the chinese people that even the western people revert to their ideologies(to some extend) to create a group effort that challenges the Great Satan(of Redmond).
"It's your turn to attack the capitalist pigs, comrade!"
I honestly don't know why we are willing to have anything to do with them.
The US doesn't play ball forever with governments that spurn international intellectual property rights. If they try to screw us over by not releasing the "red flag" distro with full sources, that's going to be one more big red mark against them. Couple that with infanticide and other human rights violations...
I'm going to write my congressman today and tell him that I oppose this idea of the US granting favored trading status to China. Let's give it to Australia or some other country that isn't run by pinko commie bastards. Communism has been proved wrong (and stupid) multitudinous times. With capitalism, you have a few really rich people, a lot of middle-class people, and a smaller amount of poor people. With communism, you have the government, the military, and the civilians, a few of whom are rich, but most of whom are poor; most live in squalor.
Cut their pipe and tell them they can have it back when the Chinese government is run by the people, not the commie turds.
This sounds particularly strange in light of China's endeavors of late to join the World Trade Organization. This kind of ban smacks of improper protectionism. And to think that the Chinese government has made major strides in reducing central economic planning, only to see the same controlled-economy thinking rise up in the realm of IT, a field which presents a great opportunity for China to lift itself out of poverty...
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
I have to agree, hope it's true but Red Flag? you've gotta be joking
Pretend for a second that this was true--wouldn't it be a hell of a lot easier to get backdoors into an OS that the government would probably have almost complete control over? I mean, sure you could view it as that Linux is a better operating system... but if it did happen, I'd think it be a lot more driven by the fact that China would view it as a better operating system to spy on... (assuming that they blew through the GPL, which wouldn't be that unlikely) ~=Keelor
Never trust that a large organization, especially a government, will act in its best interests. If that were the case, we would have no crypto export regulations.
Isn't it in a country's best interest for their neighbours/enemies to be denied access to strong crypto?
> First off, it's nice to see a government making
:)
> better use of its resources by not paying for
> software that can be had for free.
Definitly true....finiancially and
otherwise
> On the downside, China is going to have problems
> developing an "entrepeneur economy" if the
> government dictates technology.
Sounds like your saying "They will have trouble
becoming capitalist"?
um...have they ever stated that they wish to
move their econonmy in that direction? (I am
asking, I truely am unaware if they have)
I thought they were pseudo-communist (I really
have trouble calling them communist. I know they
claim to be communist, but so did the USSR)
Also, to adress your argument more directly,
this is only in government offices. Certainly in
government offices (or any other large
organization) it is necissary to standardize some
things. You really do not want the Ministry of
Love doing all of their memos and things in
Microsoft Word and the Ministry of Truth using
TeX on Linux. It adds extra complexity. It means
the miniluv people need to know how to read
or print out TeX documents (how many windows
users even know that MS Word isn't the be all and
end all of text processing?) and the minitrue
people need to know how to read word Documents.
Isn't it easier to just standardize on one
system from the outset?
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
Remember, the way GPL works is that someone who makes a fix or an improvement has to release their code. However, this is just a matter of playing by the rules, and seeing how dismal China's record for copyright rule enforcement has been, I think we'll be lucky if all that new Chinese code is released at all. My guess is that they'll make new programs where possible, fork major stuff like the kernel, and keep their own versions secret.
bp
woxy.com - Bam! The Future of Rock and Roll
A side benefit is the creation of a more computer literate society. When I first got into computers it was a C64 -> Amiga -> DOS -> Windows/UNIX. There isn't much you can learn about the details of networking or OS design from setting up a WinNT box but, if I was 10 years old again with a Linux box totally different story.
All in all...if this is true...despite what we may think of China's government it's an excellent move for them.
People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them
...that China develops some kind of X platform to help control most aspects of the computer rather than relying heavily on the console. It would be impossible to control Linux through the console trying to use the Chineese writing system and keyboard.
Their success in the US is the best evidence of the effects of govenment regulations at home. Here they have resources and are free to do what they will with them. I expect much more from them than those left behind. I'll bet that there are more than 7.1 million recent chinese imigrants in the US that are internet users.
I still won't trust a Chinese binary. Code written and compiled in the US is American, regardless of the author. Red Flag will be suspect.
US poverty looks like wealth elswhere. Grep of US starvation returns no results. People here have a problem with fat.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
23 phones per 1000 people. check out this neat chart!
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
China seems to have more fundamental infratructure needs right now than PCs. China needs more electricity generation and distribution. China could also use more phones. I've read that the goal is to have one telephone per family in urban settings and one phone per village in rural settings. Wow, a phone!
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
China's command economy has produced a stange mix of old and new and this does not bode well for increasing computer usage. They seem to have recovered from Mao's great step forward that killed 40 million people. Now peasants seem free to farm as they have for centuries, with oxen and hand, but still have to import some food. China Agriculture Profile . It is bizare that a nation as good at exporting all maner of manufactured goods has not been able to modernize it's agricultural sector, and the country as a whole is still very poor. Subsistance agriculturist don't make good computer users, they have other things to worry about.
I would not trust a Chineese Binary. If they are getting rid of W2K, it is so they keep control to themselves. As others have pointed out here before, disk copies of WinDoze does not make this a cost issue. >I'm affraid that Red Flag will be full of trojan horses and other control enhancements. Communist societies are deathly afraid of technology that can be used to tell the truth. Printing presses were supressed in the Soviet Union, while copy machines and faxes became indespensible tools in the west. China is presently fighting a desperate battle against a religious cult that had the audacity to stage a few sit down protests. Can we really expect free software in a place like that?
Still, who knows what effect those 7.1 million users might have given better tools? Good luck to you!
If you don't like my spelling, please post a corrected version. Thanks, I'm too lazy.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
After reading through the first bunch of comments on this story, something struck me as silly; a lot of the readers that have contributed to this story seem to think that their views on democracy (or other forms of government) should be echoed in the Chinese government! This is absurd, of course, since most of ./'s contributors are probably not posting from China, and are therefore unlikely to be members of their government.
It strikes me that the Chinese government should (and obviously does) feel free to mandate the use of whatever software they wish in their offices, much as I do at work when I say "Everyone should be running Windows 9x or Windows NT, not Windows 3.11". Before you flame me, Linux is not an option at my workplace -yet-. I'm working on it.
If banning win2k in the government offices creates more programming jobs in China, as well as promoting the use of a local product as opposed to an American product, then more power to them; they're doing what is right for their country. I would expect the same of any other country with an ounce of pride in its people and products. They obviously feel that they can produce something better than win2k for their needs.
meisenst
Green's Law of Debate: Anything is possible if you don't know what you're talking about.
Wait, there's a word for this way of thinking... oh, hold on. I'll get it eventually.
Oh yeah! Paranoia!
"Open source" does -not- equal "instant eavesdropping capability". It makes the creation of eavesdropping code easier, but when a user can simply fetch the source and recompile it, it wouldn't prove all that effective.
meisenst
Green's Law of Debate: Anything is possible if you don't know what you're talking about.
I know EVERYONE (well almost) here at /. loves Linux in all forms and flavors, but, if it's true, China MAKING everyone use Linux is what you guys don't want. What you say now is that you feel Microsoft is MAKING you (well, probably not you) use Windows. So you (make and) use Linux instead. I not saying using Linux is bad, I personally like it, but what atracts most people to it is that is it's another option. Now in China, people might use Windows for the same reason that we use Linux: it's something else.
Anyways, I suspect China has mandated the use of Linux simply because Windows is an America-based product, where mostly Americans profit from it. Linux, on the other hand, is a global effort in which no one person or group benfits, especially since the source is free. Plus, if they use a China-based company's flavor of Linux, all the better for them.
But what do I know.
Th
I have read the moderator guidelines, several times in fact, and heres my point:
Bad comments have nothing to do with the article they are attached to.
The original poster, while his comment was related to the topic of the article, really had nothing to do with it. He obviously didn't read it. See my email for more of my reasoning. Perhaps I'm just harder on that moderation guideline than most. But I hope you understand that I have in fact read and thought about the guidelines, and have justification for my view, even if you value that part of the guidelines less than I do.
Alot of you, even some who have been moderated to 2 or even 3 apparently haven't read the article.(WTF moderators???) If you did you would see that the policy is only supposed to apply to government systems. As for peoples home systems the Chinese government couldn't care less.
Point of fact- China doesn't have nearly 1/2 the worlds population. Only about 1/6. Still, the government bereacracy that will be running Linux is huge. They will say "Hey I like this new OS at work, I can even bring a copy home with me to put on my own computer." The installed base of linux could easily shoot up by 100 million. 100 million potential developers. 100 million potential tech support people. It has the potential to go up alot higher, or not quite so much, but I'd say the installed base will at least double.
Many of you dislike that it is China that is making this move. Why? They have a repressive regime, but Chinese society has never been as free as Western society. China is also quite free for a communist country. As long as they don't organize against the state Chinese citizens generally are left to do as they please. There are several reforms under way providing for more of a capitalist economy. Its very slow, true, but look what fast changes did to Russia? Within most of our lifetimes they will likely be very free, not so much politically but economically, and even politically quite a bit more than they are now. And have any of you noticed their reactions to major natural disasters? Just like the U.S., they send all the aid they can. Military forces, disaster relief agencies, whatever can help. They have their problems, but they are not the evil empire that the USSR was.
China does not have 1/2 of the worlds population. Not even close. Its more like 1/6. And, they are only forcing the Government to use Linux, not the general public. Read the article next time.
Moderators, please read the article before you moderate, and make sure you understand the "facts" presented in posts. Not that you need to know everything in the post is 100% accurate, but basic information like population in China vs the rest of the world is pretty simple.
As for Chinese population vs world population, I am using current information, maybe a year out of date. At most. As for moderation, innapropriate posts should not be moderated up. When the poster obviously has not read the article in question, and refers to something beyond what is in /.'s summary, then that post is inappropriate. Plain and simple. If they bring in incorrect outside information to support arguments based on the article linked to, thats ok, but at the least, the article should be read.
It makes sense that a government would prefer to have their computers run on software designed by people from that country. The story sounds like fact with a little fun thrown in. I can't imagine them calling it Red Flag Linux but I can see them requiring the use of a version of Linux developed by Chinese programmers.
----- When it is dark enough, men see stars.
It doesn't really matter who has committed more atrocities, the U.S. or China; I was just making the point that the U.S. was hypocritical after committing so many of its own violations. I think it's safe to say that the U.S. has committed far more violations around the world (what countries has China been involved in?) and that China has committed more against its own citizens. And don't think we know all about U.S. violations against its own citizens; are you following the story of the U.S. government experiments with injecting plutonium into unknowing Americans - I think they all died.
What matters is doing what we can to stop human rights violations wherever we can and promoting peace and justice in the world. Now, as an American, can I have more influence on stopping U.S. or Chinese human rights violations? I can educate Americans, protest, write letters to the editor, vote, etc. to stop U.S. human rights violations, but there is much less I can do about China - it is enough of a challenge for Chinese to do anything about China.
Don't think that me or my fellow left-wingers are just America-bashing; that America is bad and other countries are good. Of course, the free press, civil rights, labor rights, and the limited democracy we have are all victories compared to monarchy or totalitarianism. Remember, though, that all these "rights" were fought for and won (often with blood), not given to us by the Founding Fathers. Sure, they threw in the First Amendment, but they passed a law saying you couldn't criticize the government within ten years (Alien and Sedition Acts), and it wasn't until activists formed the ACLU that we REALLY had any 1st Amendment rights (as I remember my history).
As far as China, Cuba, Iran and Iraq, if you want to learn more about them do some research - I don't think Slashdot will get you too far there. A lot has been written about them, I'm sure. To understand some of the U.S. role (since WWII) I recommend William Blum's book "Killing Hope". Understand that a lot of money has gone from the CIA through academia - that said there are still a lot of independent scholars out there.
There is actually an opposition press in Iran, although it often gets shut down (as I recall). A central issue to this opposition is indeed women's rights.
Speaking of Iran, I'll close with some history that you might not know. In 1953 Iran was a democracy. Their Parliament voted to nationalize the oil industry, which was basically British. Although nations have the right to do this under international law (it's like eminent domain) the CIA helped overthrow the democratic government and installed a brutal dictator, the shah, and a secret police force that tortured and killed Iranians.
But let me end on a positive note: at least it's Friday!
Communism has been proved wrong (and stupid) multitudinous times. With capitalism, you have a few really rich people, a lot of middle-class people, and a smaller amount of poor people. With communism, you have the government, the military, and the civilians, a few of whom are rich, but most of whom are poor; most live in squalor.
Your describe capitalism as it exists in the U.S., arguably, but most capitalist countries fit your description of communism: a few rich, the military and most poor and living in squalor. I'm thinking of Latin America which is 100% capitalist thanks to the CIA (see "Killing Hope" by William Blum), except for Cuba. One of the reasons so many people can live so well in the U.S. is that our country takes so many resources from poorer countries (i.e. - the rest of the world besides Europe).
It is hard to imagine today the word "communist" being used positively, but this wasn't the case before countries like the USSR and China corrupted the C-word. Read about the Paris Commune of 1871, where the citizens governed themselves democratically without rulers and still were able to run the day-to-day activities of the city and feed people. Then you understand why millions of people around the world rallied behind the label "communist". It wasn't the USSR they were admiring!
I'm not supporting China, but their human rights violations don't compare to those of the U.S. The U.S. can just ignore its human rights violations, like bombing civilians in Serbia and Iraq, withholding food and medicine from Cuba, and funding terrorists (aka contras) in Nicaragua, all of which violate international law. The world community has condemned the U.S. many times for its human rights violations, (i.e. the World Court ruling condemning the U.S.-contra terrorism in Nicaragua), so the U.S. is a total hypocrite when lecturing about human rights. That said, I still hope the people of China can organize to win more rights, but I doubt the U.S. is really interested in helping them.
A bigger difference is that Linus hasn't jailed anyone for failing to contribute to his Great Project -- although slackers have been punished by lack of IPO participation.
Seriously, I wonder if (truly) free software in China might not have a subversive influence. It would certainly make it possible for people to roll their own internet access (assuming they have phone lines!)
"You can't get something for nothing." - my grandfather, on the stock market and Reaganomics.
I suppose you're right...assuming that you can find and eliminate all the backdoors that the government's security apparatus is going to have included in every version of the OS.
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knout (n) - A leather scourge used for flogging
I suppose you're not as paranoid as I am. I would not use any OS whose development was controlled or mandated by any government.
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knout (n) - A leather scourge used for flogging
This is possibly the funniest (and most accurate) thing I've read all day...
I have no sig. Bite me.
What I would find interesting is how many people in China would actually *want* to use the software. I mean, everyone knows that their government tells the people exactly what they should know (regardless of what the truth might be). Now if a government like that (or any organization in fact; I don't mean to be pointing out China specifically) said it had a nice little OS for you to run on your computer, how quick would *you* be to install and use it? Remember the NSAKEY flak? Well, if Chinese developers are working on this Red Flag Linux, how good do you think the chances are that something like this (and more) could be in there? You might say "Open Source!" but governments like these don't like too many things "open". Two cents.
There are nowhere close to 100,000 Chinese characters, much less 200,000. That's mythology. The largest collections of Chinese characters are in the 50,000 to 80,000 range, and are mostly composed of glyph variants.
Today, Chinese experts make a distinction between character and glyph, and prefer to deal with glyph variants at the font level. This makes it so much simpler for Chinese software, such as search engines. For this reason, they are not anxious to use giant characters sets. Unicode is about the right size, and the Chinese official experts contributing to Unicode aren't anxious to add a lot more characters to Unicode. They still need to add a few, but are doing so very judiciously. Whatever they add, they know they'll have to support, so they frown on variant glyphs of the same character as separate characters. Sorting, searching, printing, font making...everything is tougher when you encode multiple versions of what really should be considered the same character. The experts don't want the permanent liability. It's really only nationalistic amateurs who make a big fuss about Unicode being "far from enough". The experts know better (though there will later be a full 64K character plane devoted to such variants outside the core "Basic Multilingual Plane" to quiet the complainers.)
"Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
A lot of people are posting about China imposing Linux on its citizens and banning Win2K from them. Read the article again. "China will ban use of Microsoft's new Windows 2000 operating system throughout the government..." That means that they are banning the use of Win2K on government computers, not the computers of its citizens. While it is still a strong statement of the feeling of the Chinese governament about Win2K, it's not as draconian a measure as people are interpreting it to be.
Not that much people ... will READ all 6 million lines of sourcecode to scan if there will be special things put into it.
umm... diff?
Will I retire or break 10K?
A billion new linux users would require that there were that many computers in China and people with the level of knowledge to use such an operating system. The simple fact is that whereas the government may be mandating linux boxes, the bulk of the poeple do not have the money to buy a comptuer! Yes, it's true, you do have to have a computer to run Linux! The majority of the population is far below the poverty level and a large portion don't even have electricity in their houses. If China really wanted to bring Linux to the forefront, they'd setup ways for average citizen to buy a computer to develop good enough skills to actually be productive in a society of over a billion. To futher illustrate the meaninglessness of this governmental Linux use, what good are these computers if the people of China are dead. Feeding a billion people is no easy task even with the resources that China does have. What i'n getting at is that before we worry about getting a billion linux users, why don't we worry about feeding these people and bring them out of the stone age first. This talk of China mandating the use of Linux less than most of you think. The majority of Chinese users still depend upon windows. For the average user just browsing the web and wanting to play games, it's a smarter choice. In my humble opinion, if they want a truly good platform for development, they'd support NT and Linux in conjunction with each other. Diversify. But that's just me. What's next? Only the sale of RED iMacs in china?
"I am Jack's complete lack of suprise." -Fight Club
complete unsubstantiated bullshit. it's funny how slashdot keeps reporting this unsubstantiated story.
"Oh! But there are TWO articles supporting it!" Yes, but the second article is a derivitive of the first.
This should really have the Monty Python foot, cuz it is kinda funny!
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
I knew China had started the New Years Eve celebration one day earlier than normal, but I didn't know the had decided on doing April fools day already in January.
http://virtuelvis.com/
Government paranoia.
Frankly, I don't think this is that important. If they make their own version and don't release it, it will only affect them (and would make it hard for them to take advantage of patches written elsewhere--they'd lose out). Their modifications wouldn't affect anyone in the rest of the Linux community, just like nobody in said community really cares when MS comes out with a new Windows upgrade. It may be frustrating, but that's all.
It would, however, give us a great near-oxymoron: pirated open source software.
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Oper on the Nightstar
read the news! Every country in the WTO has the equivalent of the favored trading status. A few months ago, US and China just signed a deal to let China in. They should join this year. And giving Australia the favored trading status would be useless as they're already part of the WTO.
not just the title. They >>might "ban" MS Win2000 in favor of local linux distro in government ministries. That means nothing for the personal market. To most computer owners in China, computers are just status symbol, like the TV before it. They're going to use the operating system most popular in the West, especially US. If US primarily use MS products, the home user will continually pirate.. er obtain MS products to use at home. No matter how much nationalism exists in China, they still don't want to buy a "inferior" product made in China. They want something WESTERN.
Ok, allthough it's open source etc, the goverment of China will be able to put in code to control what the user can and more important: can't do. Or control/trace actions of the user. Not that much people know C well enough to understand 6 million lines of sourcecode, or better: will READ all 6 million lines of sourcecode to scan if there will be special things put into it. Because people in China are not that much willing to protest against control by the goverment (because of the possibility of a high punishment), not much people will argue against this.
Note: the amount of lines of sourcecode I mentioned can differ, I don't know the exact amount of source lines in Linux.
Note2: perhaps some original open source parts will be closed sourced in the Red Flag version. Who will stop them if they do? Linus? The US Goverment?. Remember that citizens of China are only allowed to visit websites which are preselected by the Goverment, and don't have the oppertunity to 'patch' the goverment parts with source downloaded from western FTP sites..
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
Hey, that's always false :)
Hey 1 billion Chinese typing randomly away on their keyboards. They're bound to produce some awesome code!
It doesn't matter who controls the development if it's going to be open source.
> The US doesn't play ball forever with governments that spurn international intellectual property rights. If they try to screw us over by not releasing the "red flag" distro with full sources, that's going to be one more big red mark against them. Couple that with infanticide and other human rights violations.
But the US does play ball with countries that has a huge untapped market. I think the US puts capitalism above human rights. Why do you think China is still has the most favored status? This country is such a hypocrite.
Anyone for Victory Linux (Aka RedFlag Linux) Special Features * Transmits Every keystroke to the Miniluv * Makes sure any people sending messages containing any kind of anti Govt. statements are Marked as unpersons * Interfaces with your ViewCam to monitor you 24x7 * Wakes you up in the morning and forces you to touch your toes, shouts derogatory remarks if you cannot * Confronts you with your deepest fears if you commit Thought Crime (Kernel Oops 101) * sends subliminial messages to make you completely abhor sex each time you press 'ls'
Anyone for Victory Linux (Aka RedFlag Linux)
Special Features
* Transmits Every keystroke to the Miniluv
* Makes sure any people sending messages containing any kind of anti Govt. statements are Marked as unpersons
* Interfaces with your ViewCam to monitor you 24x7
* Wakes you up in the morning and forces you to touch your toes, shouts derogatory remarks if you cannot
* Confronts you with your deepest fears if you commit Thought Crime (Kernel Oops 101)
* sends subliminial messages to make you completely abhor sex each time you press 'ls'
Scary as it might seem, this evil empire is already taking form across the globe. The sweat shops, the millions of people who have had their livelyhoods destroyed because of imports and the proliferation of Coca-cola, Pizza hut and last but not the least Microsoft bear testimony to this. This evil empire, is by far more pervasive than the USSR ever was.
Yes, China is doing the right thing. It is showing the world that nations can break free from the clutches of the capitalist swines. A good example for other economically colonised countries to follow.
comments in code? whats that??
i wonder if thats gonna be like... ruguo ling = yi jiu qu_huilai();
why on earth would they do that, u idiot
it would be better to use both seeing as one of the biggest cities in china (i.e. HK) uses traditional
hei! ni rock!
I struggle with the idea that the US has committed atrocities that pale those of China. We (the US) live under a global microscope. Every action (or inaction) that we are complicit to is vigorously dissected in the world court of opinion. And, many of these opinions are proffered by groups and/or individuals that need to find fault/blame in our complicities to justify their geopolitical position.
The "unfree press" that exists in many of the country/states that are the most vocal opposition to all things American are simply tools to continue the mind-herding of the subjects of their power structure - their populations. The atrocities that are committed by these countries/states are not subject to the scrutiny of the world, because the world has no eyepiece (the press and freedom of information) to moderate their governments and regimes. Severely depressed human rights become a mode of operation for those that wish to retain their power. If all you have known for 10 generations is repression and cruelty - your norm - than what becomes abnormal? If a high percentage of your population would book to the US if it was possible, then how to tame that dragon? Misinformation.
As for he examples offered as to the scale of atrocity performed by our country, although many will disagree that some of the specific items mentioned are or aren't atrocities, they are bear a common thread - our government's undying protection of corporate profits and the resultant political contributions that come from these acts of protectionism. Our history is rife with cases of "we know what's best for everybody". But, notice that they are all bared to the world and our populace to be analyzed. In theory, education cures ignorance. Hopefully our education as residents of this country would eventually make us less ignorant to the things our elected officials do. It is shameful that the politicos feel we are such sheep that they can make decisions about the world without knowing more about what we the people think/feel.
I would challenge anyone to show an example of any accurate and factual, even if it is politically biased, recounting of the current history of China, Cuba, Iran, Iraq, et al. Even better, show me the opposing localized viewpoints to that history. Can we pick up a copy of the Tehran Times and read about the oppression of women's rights in Iran?
Ignorance is curable by education - stupidity is a disease. We can all use a dose of the cure every now and then.
In order to understand this announcement, you have to understand that the PRC is a very corrupt society with an economy run by a set of closely interlocked companies. These companies are largely run by the government, often through the armed forces. The country's economy is essentially a national oligopoly, run by a small clique of insiders.
The members of the G7 have been pushing the Chinese to free up their economy for quite a while. This effort has been led by the US. To much of the world, for better and for worse, one of the standards of the US multinational dominance is Microsoft (along with MacDonald's, Disney, and Coke).
So a thumb in Microsoft's eye is a thumb in the eye of the much-envied US. It is a blow for "independence" from the dominant foreign power. More than that, under the cover of open source, it's a chance to look like your protecting "freedom" while doing this. It's good propaganda. It is just plain good domestic politics.
This is all compounded by the on-going battle by the chinese oligarchs to get into the WTO. China isn't happy that its domestic policies regarding abuses in Taiwan and in Tienamin Square are considered relevant issues in the West. What's the best solution: first, accuse a foreign government of the same tactics (remember Kosovo and the "intentional" bombing of the Chinese embassy?) and, failing that, go after a foreign corporate icon. Bet's on whether MacDonald's, or Disney is next?
Oh, shit. Disney already got it over that awful Richard Gere film about Tibet. Never mind -- Boeing maybe.
Whether or not this article is true, and whether or not the Chinese Government is going to mandate Linux, the development of a Chinese Linux distribution called Red Flag Linux has been widely reported. The distribuion as described sounds very good and very likely to be in development.
Many of the articles say that development's being done at the Chinese Academy of Sciences, and that Compaq's China branch is assisting in development. Maybe one of the more journalistic minded people here might want to contact these organizations for confirmation and information about the distribution?
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Open mind, insert foot.
Some products are exported with longer than 40 bit keys but they must be granted an export license which means there is key escrow or a back door. The back door may "only" decrease the effective key length to 40 bits for the NSA.
In the case of the export version of Lotus Notes, encrypted messages expose 24 of the 64 bit key to the NSA enabling easier brute force attacks. You may agree or disagree with this, but it seems wrong to sell your customers a 64 bit encryption subsystem and not tell them about the back door. Of course the existence of a back door for one party generally means that any party has an easier time breaking the encryption.
--
"L'IT c'est moi!"
Why would the Chinese government not honor the GPL? If it kept the source code a secret, it would hinder their development just like the Windows code base is within Microsoft. To keep it a secret would cripple their development.
Cut their pipe? Who are you to censor a nation? The internet treats censorship as damage and routes around it. Technology is very diverse and IP packets can be sent in many ways and there will always be those who will connect (unless its spam, and no one lives for that.) It would take many bigots with a great many nuclear weapons to censor a large nation such as China.
the commie turds.
Why don't you start with censoring yourself and learn from it. Better yet, get an education.
DOS attacks from China? I haven't seen any connection attempts from China, except for the http logs on my box. Most of the portscans I have seen are from here in the states and have yet to see one from China.
This is less suspicious than it sounds. It's almost certain that many government departments are already using Windows 95, 98, NT, etc. and have existing applications running on those platforms. Banning those would be a rather poor migration move :) Assuming this story is true, the likely plan is to force the ministries to follow a Linux upgrade path rather than a W2K one, as I'm sure many existing applications would need ported/emulated/tested/replaced. You don't just throw away your IT infrastructure, after all.
Nothing worth doing is worth doing today.
----------
#!/bin/sh
# give me gedit in Traditional Chinese
LANG=zh_TW.Big5 gedit &
# give me gedit in Simplified Chinese
LANG=zh_CN.GB2312-1980 gedit &
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This works on my system (Debian potato), totally untested on others.
As for Unicode, well... it doesn't yet include all the characters in Traditional Chinese and Simplified Chinese, therefore it can't yet totally replace character sets like Big5 yet.
Might this just be a ploy for some sort of deal with MS -- more favorable licensing terms or some such?
--G
The story is posted by a Chinese newspaper, and we all know how informed our own media is...
I think the best way to describe the Chinese media is the fact that the Weekly World News gets a lot of it's more bizarre articles verbatim from Chinese press.
I hope the comments don't come in Chinese. Particularly in the case of new apps.
I agree with your sentiment. I would state, however, that:
1) My ancester's actions are not my actions. My hands are not dirty simply because theirs were. In fact, I repudiate the actions of my culture then, as well as those now which perpetuate such injustices. That being said, I will not be silent when I see injustice, either here or abroad. If that offends someones sensibilities or their national pride, tough shit.
2) In mentioning (as an aside) the atrocities on Tiannamin Square and Tibet, I did not in any way seek to downplay or "hide" the dark past of my own culture, or to imply we hadn't wronged numerous people, including Native Americans, early Asian settlers, and black folk. Our ancestors did, it was evil, wrong, repugnant, and as far as I'm concerned has been woefully underaddressed by our current society. However, the subject was China's alleged embracing of Linux, not America's past, be it savory or otherwise.
3) My problem with comments such as Wah's isn't the airing of our dirty laundry at all. Quite the opposite, I think it of critical importance to speak openly, publicly, and loudly of our culture's past crimes, lest they be repeated. My problem is that, nearly every "he who is without sin" argument that is put forward, with some example from the dark past of the orignal commenter's culture, is done in order to silence the criticism itself, or in some way dilute it, by implying that a historical wrong by one country somehow makes it inappropriate for any citizen of that country, however personally innocent they may be, from speaking out against ongoing, contemporary injustice elsewhere in the world, or that somehow their criticism counts for less because of what someone's ancestors did. It also implies that historical injustice which no one can do anything about (short of inventing time travel), is equivelent to onging injustice which can be stopped. The result of such reasoning, if taken at all seriously, is obvious: no one has the moral authority to speak out against anything and injustice can run rampent without opposition, spoken or otherwise. This is why I fundamentally and vehemently reject such reasoning, as well as such trite "your granddaddy was bad so you shut up!" arguments.
I think your suggestion on visiting a local tribal meeting is brilliant. I had no idea such were open to non-Indians. Could you post some links or additional info on this? I'm in Illinois and don't have any local reservation I can stop by (that I'm aware of), but I'm a pilot with a small airplane, so flying a few hundred miles to take you up on your suggestion is something I'm very open to doing. My range for an evening is probably about 3-4 hours one way, or about 500 miles.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
What source, specifically, in the Chinese government does Reuters quote? I couldn't find it in the link supplied. As far as I can tell the Reuter's story has no more inherent "facts" than the slashdot link, with both quoting "unnamed" government officials of unknown, and unconfirmed, authority. The only certainty is that Microsoft is denying this, which is hardly surprising.
It is also interesting to note Reuter's reference to the Microsoft Big Brother Feature as a "coding mistake" which was later fixed, rather than a policy Microsoft only backed away from in the face of public outrage. This is contrary to known fact, and implies a suspicious bias of the article as a whole.
Finally, it is obvious from both articles that the Chinese government is moving away from MS as a platform toward independent, home-grown solutions, and that the government is hardly unanimous in its direction as to how to do this, or whether to do it at all.
Both articles appear equally biased, from diametrically opposed points of view. The reality appears to be somewhere in the middle, probably along the lines of some ministries or departments having mandated the use of Red Flag Linux, while others (probably most) have not. Apparently all are being quietly encouraged to look at alternatives, of which I suspect Red Flag Linux is just one. The lack of named sources for information on both sides is highly irritating, however, and precludes forming any hard and fast opinion about exactly what policies are being followed.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
I should probably have prefaced my pessimistic last sentance with the fact that (a) I'm sick, so optimism isn't in the cards today and (b) just because they're looking at Linux doesn't mean they won't dump it for a proprietary alternative (such as a closed-source derivitive of *BSD) if the government sees a profit in it.
I will be very, very interested to see if the Chinese government adheres to an open source approach, as it is in many ways antithetical to how they have operated in the past. On the other hand, perhaps this is the beginning of a Great Thaw?
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
You are arguing against a means that has created what you believe to be a justifiable ends.
... I was merely commenting that while I disagreed with some policies of China's government, I agree with their alleged stance on Linux.
No, I am not. You are making unwarrented and absurd extrapolations (which are not in the least bit logically defensible) from my comments. I am arguing againt ongoing repression and murder in China. In fact, my initial comments to which you responded didn't even argue that
However, I would assume that you would like to see China become more like the U.S politically (at least from a human rights perspective), yet how can they get there without pulling the same B.S. that our forefathers did to gain the raw materials and power necessary to accomplish that goal?
As to your absurd notion that social progress requires injustice, I respectfully disagree. Not repressing minorities does not require a history of repressing minorities, nor does it require might, power, or wealth. It merely requires that you not repress others. Democracy does not require power.might, or wealth (whether gained honorably or by repressing others), it merely requires adherence to democratic principles. Nor does respect for human rights require might, power, or material wealth. For that matter, even if material wealth were a consideration, obtaining such wealth does not require the violation of human rights or the various other myrid injustices to which you allude.
Your logic is flawed, your arguments are flawed, and IMHO your entire stance on the issue is flawed. What China did at Tiannamin Square was criminal. What the American Army did at Wounded Knee was criminal. Whatever "moral authority" I have is no less than that any other individual has irrespective of where they come from or what the country whos government claims authority over me has done in the past. My moral authority comes from the fact that I have never taken a human life and that I will speak out against against injustice anywhere I see it, at home or abroad, as is my constitutional right and IMHO my moral obligation. As an aside, I and anyone else of good conscience, would have that same moral obligation even if my past were sullied through personal wrongdoing -- one is hardly excused from opposing wrong today simply because one has done wrong in the past.
Injustice must be opposed, however imperfect those opposing it may be, and however sullied a nation's (people's, or world's) past may be. The alternative is a future even more rife with abuses and injustice than the past we all so laboriously bemoan.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
*cough*American Indians*cough*
...
You are absolutely right. Our forfather's treatment of Native Americans, not to mention blacks and early Asian settlers, was beyond reprehensible. That Indians still live on reservations to this day is appalling, to say the least. Nevertheless
Let he who is without sin, shoot the first missile.
This is foolish. Christ was referring to physical stones killing a woman for adultery, not words of criticism against an injustice. We are all with sin, so to speak. There isn't a culture on the planet that hasn't wronged another at one time or another. If we are all therefor precluded from speaking out against injustice when we see it, all we end up with is a world locked into a conspiracy of silence, with injustice even more rampent than it is today, with not a word spoken in opposition.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Most Favored Nation status was renamed year or two ago, to Normal Trade Relations. Most countries already had MFN, so the name change was appropriate. So, I'm sure Australia has it.
I personally agree that countries which violate basic rights flagrantly, and often, should be reprimanded. Americans, a majority of whom I'm sure, deplore the actions taken by the "Communist" government of the PRC. It's time the US government, on this issue, acted in a way that represents the people, and not the idea of a "free market", as mis-represented by various GM, Microsoft, and other lobbyists.
To those who submit that tariffs are government interference, I reply that tariffs are probably the least intrusive tax, as they tax foreign goods. I don't care if some US-based multinational owns it; a Coppermine processor manufactured in Malaysia is not a domestic product.
To those who submit that tariffs tax domestic companies indirectly, because other countries respond with tariffs of their own, I give the reminder that I'm only suggesting that the PRC not be granted NTR. And, according to 1996 numbers provided by the PRC embassy, the US ran a 33 billion dollar trade deficit (with 16 billion on Chinese imports). Compared with the total production of the US economy, a potential reduction of that 16 billion, due to retaliatory tariffs, is peanuts. The PRC would be hurt by a trade war far more than US would.
To the Chinese trade ministers: The US economy is the largest national economy in the world, whose potential for imports can keep entire regions afloat during a crisis. The libertarian Republican/human rights Democratic coalition in Congress would be more than happy to blow your head clean off. Do you feel lucky, punk?
Why would they send tanks after peacefully protesting people?
Why would they arrest people for worshiping in small groups, privately?
Why would they forcibly control places like Tibet?
Why would they hold military exercises to influence ROC elections?
The intent of the moderation system is not to evaluate the factual correctness of posts (given that most posters can't do this for themselves, and moderators are posters, ...). The purpose of moderation is to rank posts via scores so that the more interesting, useful, funny, and informative posts have high scores, while the crap, flames, trolls, etc., have lower scores. A post [ such as the one to which I am currently replying ] can be factually WRONG and deserve a high score on the basis of these criteria (not that your post deserves a high score, but it does not deserve to be down-moderated, because it is "interesting" although completely boneheaded). If the post is off-topic then it should be moderated so. If the post is factually incorrect (or correct for that matter) but interesting or insightful it should be moderated so. How many times do people have to tell you to read the moderator guidelines before you click the friggin link?
"Cause there's 40 different shades of black, so many fortresses and ways to attack, so why you complainin'?"
It was actually banned because the boneheads at Microsoft did the double byte enable work in Taiwan. Not because it was insecure.
Oooh.. this is REALLY neat :) My bet is that China will be using Red Flag Linux to monitor the access and email and other such things of all it's people. ANd why go through MSFT to get them to put these backdoors in when it's quite easy enough to take the linux code and hack the backdoors in there. Sure, the GPL says they have to release the code, but.. really now :) It's all just another form of big brother. China wants to watch their people. This is the easiest way and most cost effective way. Use the source :) Mags
"If they want to encourage indigenous software development, their programmers need access to the most widely-used operating systems."
1) Define "widely used". Sure, Windows dominates the world numerically, but as a local phenomena Linux is just as viable. If every Chinese person were using Linux and no non-Chinese were it would still make sense. Who do Chinese developers develop for? Chinese users!
2) In any case, W2k is not "widely used" by any definition. It hasn't even shipped yet. And before there's a bunch of shouting about "migration paths", let's just cast our minds back to all the articles we've read about retraining admins and programmers for the "whole new paradigm" of W2k.
MS made a bad move in dropping a lot of backward compatibility. Now purchasers think to themselves (assuming they think at all): "Well, I could buy W2k, but if I'm going to have to relearn a bunch of stuff, why not try out this Linux thing?"
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Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
Cut their pipe and tell them they can have it back when the Chinese government is run by the people, not the commie turds.
And just how the hell would you that? do you think all Pipes are controlled by the US government? or perhaps by you?
Most arn't even controled by US companies we could no more cut there pipe then they could cut ours.
"Suble Mind control? why do html buttons say submit?",
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I agree, simplified Chinese does suck. I think traditional is much easyer to read.
To bad I can't figure out how to enter Traditional into my computer...
"Suble Mind control? why do html buttons say submit?",
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
chinese programers speak english, how would they understand the code to begin with if they didn't?
Linus's native language is finish, but linux is in english. I suspect the situation in china will be the same.
"Suble Mind control? why do html buttons say submit?",
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Imagen the US passed a law that said that the US government would only use windows. Would you care? I wouldn't, since the gov't already uses windows for lots of stuff.
Incase you hadn't noticed, this only applies to the chinese government not the chinese people
"Suble Mind control? why do html buttons say submit?",
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
I don't think you'll see Star Spangled Linux. "Star Spangled" is already a trade mark for software in the USA. However, it was issued in 1992 for a large package of application software...I can't find a reference to that on the Net so it may be easy to buy the trade mark. But if the source code for that application software is available, I wouldn't mind if it were GPL'ed so it would have new life.
Well, that's not something you hear of every day. Whatever that means...
It's easy to use whatever you have already learned. A pop bottle is hard to use if you've only used bottles with corks, as the corkscrew keeps dropping bits of aluminum into the pop.
I don't want to get in the way of your prejudices, but I think the original posting was about your average Linux programmer who has nothing to do with his / her government at all. So, with tons of new users and coders, there is a large likelihood that more people will be active in the development of Linux. It worked for about any other country on the planet... For a real coder it's a certain satisfaction to have his extensions / improvements integrated in the kernel. I don't think that'll be different with the Chinese (no matter whether the original announcement was a hoax or not).
1) A person's contry's actions (which is what you were originally condemning) are associated with that person as long as that person associates themselves with that country. (Germans, be they active participants in the Holocaust or not (or even alive at the time) will have to deal with that stygma for the foreseeabel future). I wouldn't expect anyone to be silent when they see (from whatever awkward angle) injustice, but to condemn it from a position of moral authority (as the U.S. is soo adept at) is wrong, IMHO.
2) same as 1
3) As for this , you have admitted that the U.S. is not blameless and has a dirty past, and are (justifiably) condemning China for recent actions. However, I would assume that you would like to see China become more like the U.S politically (at least from a human rights perspective), yet how can they get there without pulling the same B.S. that our forefathers did to gain the raw materials and power necessary to accomplish that goal?
You are arguing against a means that has created what you believe to be a justifiable ends. This is a loaded discusssion and way-off topic of what has now been exposed as a hoax story.
+&x
have nearly killed several cultures (c.f Tibet among others)
*cough*American Indians*cough*
Let he who is without sin, shoot the first missile. (oh, wait, we did that too)
Not a defense of China, merely an attempt to keep bashing of cultures most of us don't understand, or actively participate in, to a minimum.
And to keep this post moderately on-topic, I think it's great that a large government has the ABILITY to roll their own NOS if need be.
+&x
In fact, my initial comments to which you responded didn't even argue that ... I was merely commenting that while I disagreed with some policies of China's government, I agree with their alleged stance on Linux.
/.
it was the tone of the initial post that grabbed my attention. You have defended this by comparing your personal moral standards with those of the government that controls 1/4-1/5 of the world's population. To condemn a country's actions (in any concrete sense) you must come from an entire country's perspective, not an individuals. This was the descrepancy I was pointing out.
As to your absurd notion that social progress requires injustice, I respectfully disagree.
In the limited universe of examples I chose (the U.S.) it would appear to be fact that social progress (Imperial Wealth and Power would be more accurate) requires injustice. Theoretically and philosophically, I agree with you, and wish it wasn't the case. If you can give some other examples, (English, nope, French, nope) I'd love to see them. All's fair in Love and War, and the Winners write the history books.
Nor does respect for human rights require might, power, or material wealth.
I will very much disagree here. Don't eat for about a week (and watch your children starve) and tell me how much you would rather be nice than have a thick steak.
My moral authority comes from the fact that I have never taken a human life and that I will speak out against against injustice anywhere I see it, at home or abroad, as is my constitutional right and IMHO my moral obligation.
That makes it easy. Close your eyes and your moral obligation disappears. Funny, but I would respect your position more if you HAD taken a life (not talking about homicide here folks). People in the U.S. have been fat and happy for so long they are starting to think it's a right (yes, I am a tad bit overweight and have a positive outlook on life).
I for one hope the world can balance our progress such that our animal natures can forever be dormant, accessed only as a means to get your attention for advertising or entertainment. But we can't forget where we came from, or how we got here.
BTW: thanks for a coherent argument (even if you don't think mine is), this is why I read
+&x
My Windows 95 is much more secure now, but it took several months of intense psychotherapy...
--The basis of all love is respect
By the ideal of communism, China should keep their Linux open sourced. By the ideal of central governmental control, China should keep their Linux closed source. Which ideal do you expect China to hold more closely?
--The basis of all love is respect
Per current law, most "strong" (not easily crackable) crypto cannot be exported from the US. It can be imported from anywhere. Other countries don't particularly have this policy. As a result, people who really want to write crypto software have reason to move overseas. Moreover, remember that most of the mathematical types who do crypto don't live in this country.
Where a piece of software needs to have crypto built in, foriegn developers have a natural advantage because they can ship a secure product anywhere.
What it comes down to is that crypto export regulations insure that the best crypto, and the best crypto-enabled software, come from places other than the US. And this is exactly how you fail to deny strong crypto to your enemies.
--The basis of all love is respect
The largest country in the world runs on Linux, shouldn't you?
Apparently just the government. That's not the same as banning it everywhere. Private enterprises presumably can shell out for Windows.
What this begs the question is, why is our government still buying Windows, when Linux is certainly usable for probably 90% of what Windows is used for?
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
What I think is the biggest joke is that the article from the South China is in ASP.
Uh, look closely. SCMP isn't the one reporting the decision. They are only reporting what another paper has said.
The decision to ban W2K was reported by the Yangcheng Evening News. And they don't need to be lying, as another Coward suggested; they only need to be misinformed.
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
I absolutely agree. And somewhat disagree.
Many western governments have had a de-facto ban on non-Microsoft products for a long time. These come in subtle forms: purchasing agreements with vendors who only supply Windows boxes, mandated file formats and applications for some tasks and so on.
So in one sense I don't see this (alleged) move on behalf of the Chinese government as any worse than what western governments have done.
The question which arises is, how should governments chose their software? We might suggest fitness for the job, but if every office of every department does their own comparative study, they will probably spend more than if they bought MS in the first place.
Governments have two reponsibilities to balence: get the job done and not waste the tax payers money. Linux certainly has advantages in the second task, but there are still application holes where the former is a serious problems in the former. So the issue is not cut-and-dried.
The folks who don't know anything about China say that Red Flag Linux will be closed-source by Chinese government mandate. People familiar with China say it's technically open, if politically closed, and that the first group are a bunch of noodnik know-nothings. Debate went rapidly downhill from there.
I'll point out one fact: Microsoft tried to enforce their trademark in China and not only lost, but created a firestorm by the very attempt.
How much luck do you think you're going to have enforcing GPL in a Chinese court?
Red Flag Linux is going to be as open or closed as the Chinese government wants it to be, and nothing any of the GPL fans say or do is going to matter one bit. China conforms to international trade law when it suits them, and it suits them when their trading partners have the economic clout to enforce it.
The open-source movement does not have that clout.
As much as this article says "to promote the use of ingidenous software" I can't help but think there are other concerns the Chinese Government has.
Security concerns? Sure, we all know GPL software is a hell of a lot more secure than closed-source software.
User concerns? Maybe, while Windows may be easier to use at a glance, Linux can be just as easy with 2-4 weeks of practice.
Anyone agree with me here?
Tyler
I am a user of Sun, Linux, and Windows operating systems. I would agree wholeheartedly that open sourced OS's have it all over Windows. But I can't BELIEVE that you all would be foolish enought to praise China's decision on this matter. Sure it promotes your favorite OS, but at what cost?
Protectionist policies have no place in the modern world economy, and serve only to put up barriers between people/countries. No matter what your feeling for a particular OS is, you should not promote the exclusion of all others. Isn't this the exact stuff you are pissed about microsoft doing in the US? Great, you are doing it yourselves. If you truly believe in the Linux operating system, then it will flourish without the banishment of all other operating systems.
-Chris
Windows is often a more realistic choice in the corporate (or in this case governmental) community for the shear fact that it is easy to use and EVERYBODY knows something about it. It is (like it or not) a fairly intuitive OS.
Now, don't get me wrong...I dispise Micro$oft as much as the next guy. I am simply willing to admit that Windows is useful for some tasks. The Chinese government would be making a mistake by taking this sort of action. It will result in (at the least) a significant period of decreased productivity...
> Then, there's the "banning" of Windows 2000. Why ban one Microsoft OS and no other?
:-)
Some time ago, Windows 95 has been banned in China, too, because it is too insecure (I can't argue with that)
I can think of several ways that it will benifit all linux users.
1) Better support for 2 byte char systems.
2) A lot of people in China will be using linux. Some of them will be writing new code. With luck we will see some cool software originating in China. Both in terms of totaly new software and
in terms of improvments to existing code.
Erlang Developer and podcaster
There may be some bullshit in this article, but it is not entirely bullshit. For instance, Red Flag Linux apparently does indeed exist, as a Google Linux search will reveal. Linux Weekly News covered it in this article back in August of last year. It also refers to an article in ComputerWorld China (in Chinese, of course).
... does this make Linux the operating system of serial killers?
Now that I've got the "Informative" part of this comment out of the way, I'll add the "Flamebait": For the Chinese government to use a Linux-based OS does not demean Linux. There are millions of people in the world who use Linux-based systems already. Some number of these people are assholes; this does not make Linux an assholes' operating system. Some number of them beat their spouses or children; this does not make Linux a domestically violent operating system. By now there's probably been a serial killer or two who's used Linux
It is true that by using a more efficient, less crash-prone operating system, the Chinese government may become more efficient itself. In theory, this could be bad for the Chinese people: an efficient tyranny is likely worse than an inefficient one. However, I suspect that this would be more than balanced by the fact that involvement with Linux has the potential to lead to greater integration of China with the Net: how are they to keep up with new software developments if they don't have connectivity? And greater integration with the Net might very well lead to the spread of democratic ideals in the Chinese population, especially in the technologically adept population sectors who are most likely to come in direct contact with Linux-based systems.
Finally, I must add the following: China (says the Guide) is big. Really really big. You may have thought Texas was the epitome of big-itude, but that's just peanuts to China. China has big history, big culture, and lots of other big things too. The Chinese civilization has survived other bogus and tyrannical dynasties, and it will survive the "Mao Dynasty" as well. Right now things are obviously getting a bit shaky over there -- the Falun Gong crackdown indicates to me that the regime is scared of imminent popular uprising. In some sense, wouldn't adoption of Linux (and all that it entails) throw that much more Blessed Chaos into the mixture?
I have to ask just what kind of character support this "Red Flag Linux" is supposed to have. Will it be Simplified Chinese and/or Traditional Chinese?
Remember, Windows 2000 supports both Chinese character sets through Unicode, the international standard for foreign character sets. Unicode supports Latin, Cyrillic, both Chinese sets, Japanese, Hindi, Arabic, Hebrew, Thai and other character sets I don't remember offhand without having to do complicated changes to the OS just to change character displays.
Raymond in Mountain View, CA
I guess I feel like being a troublemaker today
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
While I am not a fan of China's draconian governmental policies, which have given us the bloodshet of Tiannamin Square and have nearly killed several cultures (c.f Tibet among others), the principal behind what they are doing -- encouraging indigineous industry and experties and not pouring their money into another country's pockets, is a sound one.
:-)
I suspect if the used FreeBSD or Linux, they would quickly develop a remarkable level of local talent and expertise, having the source to hack on and improve. It would be truly ironic if a government like China's were to become an outspoken advocate of Open Source software. Not the spokesman I would choose, certainly, but a billion new Linux users in Asia wouldn't be all bad, either.
Alas, I suspect some home-grown, proprietary system will be what is standardized on, rather than an international collaborative project like Linux and FreeBSD.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
The Chinese government isn't imposing Linux in the private sector, nor is it banning Windows 2000 from retail shelves in China. It is banning its use in government ministries and mandating the use of a free alternative that is more secure, more stable, less expensive, and more capable of developing local programming talent by virtue of the fact that the end user has access to the source code. The private sector is free to continue pirating^H^H^H^H^H^H purchasing Windows for its use.
It is entirely appropriate for a body to mandate what its internal software standards are. Our government does this all the time, as does any large corporation. In fact, our government has been known to mandate to contractors and subcontractors what products they may, or may not use, on more than one occasion, which is far more intrusive into the "free" market than what China is presently doing.
It is nice to see, for once, that such a mandate actually has a grain of intelligence and thoughtfulness behind it, something that is all too often lacking. It is very, very ironic indeed that a government as draconian and reactionary as that of China would be one of the first to be open minded enough to evaluate and then embrace Open software (if, in fact, that is actually what they are doing).
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
Recently there has been a spate of articles here and elsewhere touting the wonderful benefits that would acrue of a government adopted Open Source software. France is being hailed as a nation with ultra-enlightened statesmen for considering Open Source, and there is a push to lobby the US to do the same.
Now comes this story. Even though it's a hoax, imagine if it were true. Only Red Star Linux may be used. Debian, Redhat, SuSE, Slackware may NOT be used. This would be a government deciding not what *kind* of software it would use, but what *specific* piece of software to use. Although every other government seems to be predominantly Microsoft based, none has ever mandated a specific operating system nationwide.
This is not freedom in *ANY* sense of the word. And any here who would be in favor of such a policy don't want the freedom they claim they do, but instead just want their pet OS to win, fair or foul.
A Government Is a Body of People, Usually Notably Ungoverned
I thought China and Microsoft made a deal for a site license, a few years back. So that all computers in China could use Microsoft Windows.
Pretty big Site if you ask me. I think the reason for this was that chine had been using pirated copies and the Copyright laws there are not very tight. And like all Western companies MS saw a huge future market in China.
Hopefully they are seeing the light and dropping Windows. I believe the Chineese are smart people.
First off, it's nice to see a government making better use of its resources by not paying for software that can be had for free. Not that China ever paid for much software, software theft is pretty much the norm.
On the downside, China is going to have problems developing an "entrepeneur economy" if the government dictates technology. "Use Linux not W2K" is OK, but what if they come down next and say "use MySQL not Oracle" or "use GTK not Qt"?
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E_NOSIG
China's still the most populous nation in the world until India takes over ~2030.
So, as China industrializes, why should China let non-Chinese owned RedHat or TurboLinux own their HUGE market for new OS installs?
realistically, China needs a free OS. There are just too many people who will need low cost access, and too many government organizations that can't afford to license all of their illegal copies of Commercial software and apps.
It all fits. China will support linux, but only the version that is developed, branded, and offically supported by the CHinese government.
I mean I'm all for more linux use, but I'm not sure banning another operating system (even if just in government use) is a good idea. After all, isn't linux about freedom?
Restating the obvious since nineteen aught five.
Nope, Red Flag was developed by Compaq (China)t ml
http://ccurrents.com/newstoday/99/09/01/news4.h
Microsoft and Chinese officials on Thursday denied the report, which appeared in Wednesday's edition of the Yangcheng Evening News.
But a Ministry of Information Industry official, who declined to be identified, said the government was advocating that users bought domestic software.
Microsoft is reeling from a stream of negative publicity in China, fuelled by a vitriolic book written by its former Chinese general manager, Wu Shihong, who accuses her former employer of arrogance and insensitivity to China's needs.
A piracy lawsuit by Microsoft against a small local firm unleashed a nationalist backlash against the U.S. software giant. The suit was thrown out by a Chinese judge last month.
The state-run think tank developing Red Flag-Linux said government offices had expressed strong interest in scrapping Windows for Red Flag, citing security concerns as a chief reason. It's hard to tell which end is up in a autocracy that lacks a free press, but we can see that segments of the Chineese government look down on Windows for all the obvious reasons. See my other article, "low expectations from a command economy," for why I don't think China's 7.1 million internet users will make too big a difference anytime soon.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
A wise move, for they will be able to keep lots of 486's in business. I think Bill Gates himself advised people not to upgrade to W2K until their next computer purchase. The thing ought to be bloated!
The interesting aspect is that this Red Flag distro will certainly not be kept within the gov't . As the chinese seem not to be very fond of purchasing software, we may well have a nation of 1 billion using mostly Linux in the near future.
Maybe there won't be a LinuxOne IPO at all!
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"People ask FAQs all the time". - David Allen
1/6th of the world's population. Right. Who's figures? You gone out and counted them, right? Or are you depending on some published figure for China from a decade ago, then comparing it to the world population of today? Sorry, but that ain't worth a damn. Like with like, or don't bother.
Then, there's this "Government-only" stuff. Yeah. The Government supplies the general public with online documents in Klyx format, or KWord format, and the public -aren't- forced to use Linux. Right. Pull the other one. It's got bells on. That'd be like saying that the French don't -require- you to speak French in their country. They just make sure all official documents and published material is in French, making it impossible for people who don't speak the language to function. You don't have to demand at gunpoint to force someone to do something. You can simply make it impossible to function at anything more than at a very basic level, depending on others at every turn, any other way.
As for the moderators, why should they necessarily understand the "facts"? The Moderator's Guidelines are very clear on the matter. Moderating is NOT about whether you agree or disagree, but about whether the post might be of interest to others.
I've moderated up dozens of posts I personally thought were factually screwy. Why? Because they were still interesting, or still informative, and I believed them worth the effort of reading. My personal opinion on the facts contained therein were irrelevent, as they damn well should be.
I've also moderated down posts that I've personally agreed 100% with, for the same reason. Under the guidelines, they were the sorts of posts that merited the title of "flamebait", "troll", or "overrated". That I agreed, though, doesn't matter. That's not how moderation works here. RTFM! It's all there, -if- you read it.
The same is true of meta-moderation. Meta-moderation isn't about making your voice heard, or any other such nonsense. That's what posting is for! It's about deciding if the moderation is an accurate reflection on the value of the post to other reader. Whether you agree with the contents of the post or not DOESN'T MATTER.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Its the biggest communist country in the world, now before you moderate me down as flamebate, just hear me out... so there is unlikely to be much in the way of backlash from their citizens. (I mean nothing like if the US decided to ban an Operating system (ANY Operating system)). And now they will have the medias eye.
Esentially this could be bad for linux, for all the negative conitations China brings with it. (Ah, before we go any further, I am speaking generally. That particular view isn't one I share. I don't have anything against ANY culture or country (well, except Microsoft ;))).
However, it could be good, it definatly gives us some public relations stunts we can play with.
The largest country in the world runs on Linux, shouldn't you?
Linux doesn't scale well? ha! It serves 3 billion people well
Entire countries are adopting linux, is your business is being left behind?
The Chinese government doesn't trust Windows 2000. Why should you?
etc... etc... etc... (I realize some of these are half-truths, or worse, but what advertising isn't?. These are just examples)..
This could have negative sideeffects in respect to DOJ vs MS. MS has a bit more fodder now.
I think the best thing that will come out of this entire deal is better support for Chinese in Linux. You gotta admit, nothing like 3 billion customers to get you moving :) I can't think of a better OS to support foriegn large alphabets, with complete access to the source code, theres nothing you can't change.
Anyway, don't take this thing to extremes, its just news :)
I use to have a funny sig, but slash cut it off, and I forgot what the punchline was.
This time, Windows 2000 is to be banned, and "Red Flag Linux" is to be given to every computer user in China. (This would make Linux the number #2 OS in the world, by dint of China having more than 50% of the world's population.)
However, I can see a number of key problems with this story. "Red Flag" seems suspiciously similar to "Red Hat", and looks more like a student's play on words than a real product.
Then, there's the "banning" of Windows 2000. Why ban one Microsoft OS and no other? That doesn't make sense. If Linux is to be mandatory, it would make more sense to ban -ALL- other OS', at least those which could seriously threaten Linux' use. But, no, it's only a product which isn't even available yet which is being "banned".
I'm going to put this in the "I'll believe it if I see it" file, also known as the "Z" file. (It's at least two orders of magnitude less probable than "X" files, and you can fall asleep waiting for anything to happen.)
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
It basically says that both Microsoft and the Govt of China both deny the story and that the newspaper (in China) that originally reported it has no evidence for the policy.
For those of you who are posting kneejerk reactions without reading the article:
The story is posted by a Chinese newspaper, and we all know how informed our own media is... Maybe it's true; I'll believe it when I see it, that's all.
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
I expect much of /.'s community to jump on this with a malicious glee in their eyes, hanging burning Bill Gates dolls and praising Red China for embracing Linux and all that it represents. Remember, "all that it represents", which also means open-sourcing. Do you actually think that China will openly and without any barriers open-source Red Flag Linux? The same country that killed thousands of students at Tienanmen, the same country that suppresed a whole culture (Tibet), the same country that just sent a few dissidents to jail for being part of nothing more than their equivalent of the Rotary club. China is a closed-source country. They're using Linux because it's an open-source OS that they can tweak at will, make it their own. They couldn't do that with Windows2000. So they'll get their own OS, but will I be able to order Red Flag? Will the world be able to see what Chinese coders can do with it? Think again.