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LonelyNet (Part Two)
The irony was pretty sharp as reflected in last week's "LonelyNet"discussion. Although by no means a scientific sample, hundreds of the very people portrayed as isolated from human contact by the Internet disagreed.
One of the questions that popped up continuously on Threads and via e-mail was puzzlement over why the Internet is so often portrayed as alarming, isolating, dangerous or de-civilizing.
One of the answers is obvious. The avatars of culture - academics, pundits, journalists - often use outdated notions to try and come to terms with a radically different kind of culture. They like Western Civ, Shakespeare and Classical Music, so if you don't, then culture is declining. They read papers and watched TV, so if you don't, you're withdrawing. The fact that you're doing new and different things, and defining culture and civilization differently, doesn't seem to matter. They link popularity, health and face-to-face relationships. If you don't, human links are being broken.
Thus the Stanford study measured isolation in part by dubious measures like whether you are reading newspapers, hanging out in groups, spenting time with members of your family f2f, watching TV less, or whether or not you shop in stores or online. The study doesn't count virtual contact as human contact. E-mail senders and recipients aren't people. Virtual communities aren't communities. Getting news online doesn't count as getting news. Contact with family online isn't contact with family, but something else.
Yet the hundreds of posts on Threads, almost to a one, suggested that Stanford's researchers must have gone to a different planet. Almost all of the responses, some of them eloquent and powerful, talked about the ways in which people used the Net to connect with friends, family and colleagues - not, as the study suggested, to withdraw from them.
This doesn't mean that some people don't spent more time online than is healthy, or in place of face-to-face contact, or that others aren't obsessive about gaming, programming or computing, which is often a passion, not a hobby.
But the study's main premise, reflected in headlines all over the country last week - that the Internet is promulgating a broad wave of social isolation - seemed completely at odds with the personal experience of the hundreds of people who took the trouble to post messages here and elsewhere on the Web.
The "Matrix" never seemed more on target. Increasingly, we live in parallel worlds.
"What's going on?," e-mailed Jeff from Ann Arbor, "I have the sense I've been reading stories and studies like this my whole life in papers, on TV and from academics and politicians. Yet my own experience couldn't be farther from the truth. Every single day of my life, I e-mail my sick grandmother, who I love very much, and she e-mails me back. No matter what else I do, I do that. I talk to my friends all day on AIM. I keep in touch with friends from high school. I send love notes to my girlfriend who's in another state, and keep the relationship going. I have long philosophical conversations with my Dad, who's better talking online than in person. I talk to my best bud, who's in Ohio. I meet people on MP3.com, and in chat rooms. I talk to other students about school and schoolwork. Is that in the Stanford study?"
No, it isn't. How come?
First, for obvious reasons. The Net is frightening to many of the most entrenched institutions in American life. What people fear, they viscerally attack.
But for the clearest explanation, it helps to look backwards, not forward, even though some dislike invoking history. Almost everyone reading this is part of something frightening and controversial. In one guise or another, technology has affected politics for hundreds of years - the industrial revolution and the rise of a technologically-based industrial society, the rise of the middle class for the first time in the world, mobility provided by cars, trains and planes, the specter of Utopia, raised by people from Jules Verne to Walt Disney, the rise of technologically-empowered elites, the liberation of sexual imagery, the explosion online of religious and spiritual conversations away from organized religion, environmental worries, the horrific toll of hi-tech warfare, the sudden power and importance of young geeks and nerds, the social, cultural and political trauma of rapid changes in the workplace, the rise of pop culture, alienation, leisure time and an explosion in information and the new freedom of individuals to express themselves.
With each passing day, it looks as if the Net, which no one foresaw, may end up being the biggest technological change in human history. So if history is any guide, it will be the most controversial.
Political scientist Langdon Winner:
"Technology and its various manifestations have become virtual obsessions in discussions about politics and society on a wide variety of fronts," he writes in "Autonomous Technology: Technics-out-of-Control as a Theme in Political Thought."
"Social scientists, politicians, bureaucrats, corporate managers, radical students, as well as natural scientists and engineers, are now united in the conclusion that something we call "technology" lies at the core of what is most troublesome in the condition of our world."
For ordinary people, too, change seems to be making life complicated and coming too quickly. The people who create technologies - computing, genetics, nano-technology, artificial intelligence - rarely do a good job of explaining what they're doing to the outside world, and the outside world is increasingly bewildered and unnerved by what these technological elites are doing. People often perceive technology as an oppressive force that poses a direct threat to human freedom, family, and stability.
The philosopher Paul Goodman once suggested that widespread unease about science and technology - from medieval Europe to the Enlightenment to the Industrial Revolution [certainly, to the rise of the Net and Web] - amounts to a religious upheaval similar to that of the Protestant Reformation.
In our time, the rise of new technologies, especially the Net, has triggered a wave of alarm and moral outrage, from concerns about pornography, thievery, addiction, cracking and national security, greed, the theft of intellectual property and last week, to the notion of culture that sees the Internet as pushing withdrawal from humanity itself.
Academics and journalists are often happy to sound alarms about the Net and the Web. Like Wall Street brokers and music and movie industry execs, they feel supplanted by the computer-empowered hordes who are suddenly setting their own agendas and having their own conversations. Politicians are increasingly nervous about so much sudden democracy in a political structure previously dominated by comfortably familiar special interests, from corporations to lobbyists to politician parties to journalists.
People who think nothing of giving their credit cards to strangers in restaurants are anxious about transmitting them online. Even though children are much more likely to be harmed by relatives at home than by going online, online predators are given explosive and completely disproportionate attention by journalists and politicians.
This doesn't mean that all studies and surveys about the Net are wrong, but it does possibly put them in a context that answers Jeff's question: What's going on?
Why are studies from reputable universities and other institutions so completely at odds with our own experiences?
That's my two bytes. Add more of yours below:
I think the "Matrix" is not just a parallel of world but a reflection. My 2 cents of philosophy. Thanks.
And why do we care what Jon Katz uses to write his articles?
Some people don't have access to a Linux box all the time. For instance, at work, my company uses MS Office. I absolutely hate Word, but here I have no choice but to use it.
Slashdot makes a poor companion.
No, Signal 11, you're not good. You're still a lame fucker with nothing better to do than annoy us. No wonder you've got a spiritual connection with Jon Katz... You two flood Slashdot with your uninteresting drivel. At least there's a filter for Katz.
He just did a search-and-replace to change all ? to ', as evidenced even in this article:
I think that's just hilarious.
No shit. Hehehe.. God, it just confirms what everyone already knew about this clod. Hopeless.
Gee, I wish I had the ability to pull articles that made me look bad. Must be nice.
Wow, is this ever lame. "I hate John Katz because he uses MS Word." That's rediculous. I swear, linux users are worse than Jehovas Whitnesses. It's like a religion for you. Are you assholes going to start showing up at my door with the new edition of the "Watchserver"?
Choice of OS is just that, a choice. Go evangelize the somewhere else - save slashdot for discussions that matter.
To be blunt, I'm personally of the opinion that the effect of porn on the Internet's development is _vastly_ overrated. I've never seen any stats showing porn to be a major part of the Web, and frankly, everyone I know who uses the Internet accesses porn rarely, if at all (with the exception of a few people in the 15-22 range).
People said this about VCR's, too, and I've never seen anything that promotes that idea, either.
I like the phrase my own experience couldn't be farther from the truth .
If I had a .sig, I would consider including that phrase in it.
the original article had a ton of Microsoft Word ?'s in it..he tried to quickly clean it up but the cat was already out of the bag, so he pulled the article. Typical Jon Katz sort of move. read the first response to this post, there are a few interesting urls that show it
It was there this morning, and it's gone now. Why? It contained evidence of unsavory activities by Katz (you know, associating with known felons, etc.). Katz tried to cover up by pulling the article, but enough people had it in their browser caches by that time. Doesn't Katz know that flight is admission of guilt? Kaa (from somebody's else machine that I'm unwilling to leave my cookie on).
Besides, I wish you'd get off the "well, it's better than boozing" thing. Having a few beers with your compadres might not be the greatest thing for you, but it's not going to kill you either (so long as you don't overdo it). Not overdoing it is the key to everything, and that includes net use.
Did anyone even bother to notice that the date on that article is February *2*3* as in TWENTY-THIRD??? That article wasn't due for two days. THAT's why it got pulled. Sheesh... now stop complaining!
Here is a virtual hug. I hope you get better. I'm not really religious but I'll say a prayer for you tonight.
Why is it the default position of the local "patheticly prolific net user society" that the only social activities enjoyed by the better adjusted sections of society must be beer guzzling, screwing sluts and head-butting?
"Faster!" grunted the lust-crazed defrocked nun as the tripe-fondling
black-power advocate violated her dribbling disk drives and slid his
rampaging tool into her mouse nibbled damp.
You are trash.He was merely poking fun.Goodbye u miserable bastard :)
I couldn't give a shit what 999 out of 1000 americans think. 999 out of 1000 americans are fucking morons.
It isn't bad as a resource of tons of information. Unfortunately most people use it for chatting and buying things now, not for spending hours reading over the works of Bakunin or looking up information of different cultures. The portals many people see when they start their browser are very limited in content. There's too many webpages out there now for a complete search engine to document them all and provide useable results for the viewer. Not to mention many Internet users are actually AOL members.
/). Neighborhoods themselves are designed as a string of houses on some roads with a central entrance or two. There often aren't community centers or anything of that nature within neighborhoods nor are the house designs themselves very social. So people are typically isolated as it is, now there is the threat of that isolation increasing even more and even cutting down communication and interaction with members in the same household. This isn't a problem for business or work. A person who spends less of their time socializing with others will have more time to spend working and buying goods they don't need (but buy to try to feel that void) to occupy that extra time.
The problem isn't in the fact it's a useful resource for gathering information, it's that it's a dehumanizing method for communication. People's identities are simplified to symbols on a screen. Their experiences and memories of those people and conversations are of text on a monitor. In the meantime they're not communicating with people around them. This isn't new as the structure of civilization in the US is very anti-social. Isolated homes in isolated neighborhoods far away from anything remotely positive (urban areas and shopping plazas :
You can lie to yourself that it isn't hurting you or anyone. Everything is perfectly fine. Talking to remote people through text all around the world is better than talking to people in your own community! Or even your next door neighbors! Text communication is far more fufilling and rewarding than pure human to human interaction. Anyone who tries to slap people back into the reality of their situations is some sort of nut case fear mongerer! TV didn't kill you so it's all a bunch of nonsense.
This has more benefits than TV thankfully and has a vast number of resources where as TV is really limited. But that's usually what keeps people away from sitting in front of the TV all day. It's boring to them most of the time. The Internet on the other hand...
Now will you go away maybe? Or will we have to wait for it to sloooooooowly sink in that your ego is much bigger than it should be for someone like you?
He turned me into a newt!
DK is the ultimate male.
Thank you.
Perhaps your ideal existence is a bit misguided. Some sort of central space of identity-stripped brains seems more like a hellish nightmare to me. That is by far what I'm looking for in an ultimate existence. Communication is not the focus of our lives. Communication is used to speak to others when needed and used to lean from others when wanted. I can't stand cell phones, beepers, email, voicemail, etc. as it is. The constant barrage of "communication" into every moment of my life is maddening. It's far from "human nature." It's more likely human nature to be social with groups of people which can be handled in a far less dehumanizing way than some sort of ultimate communication space. I don't know, perhaps restructuring the way our communities are built? Community-less grouped homes isolated from each other and from urban centers is itself unfriendly to social activity and human interaction.
Your dream sounds like a corporate dream and a large nightmare for everyone else.
If you can't figure out how to hide Katz's articles, you are a moron. If you don't want to read them, but still read them, you are a masochist. Either way, you are a complete twat. In slashdot, you wrote the following. You have a fucking nerve criticising Katz when you haven't grasped the basics of grammar yourself. >Heh.. here's the link to Katz's original article that he posted this ^ chatty! >morning, before trying to pull it. Hopefully, it will still be there ^ redundant comma >by the time you read this. Dont be surprised if it isnt. If Katz ^ ^ Don't isn't >deletes it to make the cover-up complete, I've provided a link to it >snapshotted off my own browser. Im surprised people arent ^ ^ entire sentence is shit aren't >screaming "censorship!!" over his attempt to quietly dispose of the ^ redundant ! >criticisms people (like myself) were giving him on the original ^ brackets not needed >article he removed. Fuck off with all possible rapidity.
Good idea. Someone please mod this down. It's redundant and not even proofread. Blatent abuse of a Karma +1.
Did you ever think that he might have accidently posted an earlier draft and wanted to publish the finished one instead? He has the ability and right to remove articles because he's getting paid to do so.
You don't have any substantive criticisms of the article, just brain-dead observations like "He's using Word. He must be evil". I imagine that you'll vote for Al Gore this November because his his site is running linux.
thanks, that is really useful since i'm writing an article on the impact of net surfing on college students. //cs
I'm pretty much the same, I'd say 75% of my week is spent on computers.
Although, not directly correlating, I had a similar problem with social phobia and depression when I was young. For one, I thought that people I was talking to (or even not) could read my thoughts, so I was constantly thinking about repressing "bad" thoughts that people could read (please, not comments on how stupid it was). Secondly, I was phobic of open areas, mostly with lots of people with them. Thirdly, I was extremely self conscious while standing and/or walking. I literally thought how I walked whenever I walked and felt like I was walking improperly and everyone would somehow thing me a "lesser human" or something. Lastly, I didn't studder, but I was very slow in speaking.
:).
My solution? Well, it's sort of similar to what you are doing to avoid it. First, I built up confidence on the internet by conversing in IRC chat and newsgroups -- and eventually realized how paranoid my thoughts had become. Then, I came across a job that demanded a certain amount of social interaction, so I made the leap. This not only allowed me to develop my spoken language (and believe me, it's completely different than written because you can articulate with thought when writing but spoken language is mostly impromptu) - but to learn to stand in front of groups and present as well. It's just a thought process that takes PRACTICE.
I wouldn't advocate a jump like I did, because I had problems with studdering and incoherent mumbling for a bit, but I eventually started articulating coherently. Please consider at least slowly moving towards this direction. I'm sure with work you can eventually get over it like I did. Just know that it won't come automatically as practice is the only way you can sharpen that skill. And hey, if you ever experience any problems, just make it clear to people that you have a speech impediment/depression problem whatever and most will understand. Just take it slow and understand that verbal and written conversations flow differently, which means different approaches.
Too bad I don't live in San Diego. I'd run over to wherever you live and drag you outside
I went from completely introverted, depressed, and socially phobic to a paranoid delusional level - to a complete extrovert who enjoys the thought that he was once very self conscious, stupid, and very ignorant. The net in general and IRC have almost completely cured me of this problem.
dear jon katz, please die. and then pour a bowl of hot grits down your pants. thank you.
"Harder!" grunted the saintly virgin as the tripe-fondling follicle
fetishist violated her rosebud armpits and forced his jutting neck
wrapper into her glistening navel.
I think Latin for Roman is Romanus, second declention masculine.
"Put four fingers in!" growled the unfortunate penguin as the satanic
hunchback rubbed her quivering bung and slid his horse like dong into
her pink swamp.
When you can sepnd all of your life in front of a monitor coding! And if I do seek human companionship for some ODD reason, I'll meet my future wife in a 95% male IRC channel! Great odds there!
you get the idea :)
Good call! - That took me a minute to find. LOL
Please don't pull the aristotelian mean bullshit. Too much of anything is bad, seek the mean in all things! Except when the mean is the extreme.. (it's an idiotic generalization) some things are simply the more, the better.
Either does your incessant blabbering. Get a life. Please. I'm sick and tired of all your fucking complaining. If you dont want to read Katz then don't.
Your entire point is based on an inane and stupid argument. Get over it.
"Now we're all polarized into camps due to the anger generated by a singular idiot on a soapbox"
Yeah, whatever. I'm sorry, I will act in complete uniformity in the future.
Since you've had your head stuck up your ass this entire time, I will point out to you that polar viewpoints are often expressed in stories not relating to Katz at all.
Again, argument with no substance what so ever - and incredibly annoying whining given you can just fucking ignore the article.
* Ad Hominem attack intentional you god damn son of a bitch.
"I miss the old Slashdot"
Whatever. Looking at the old stories, there are a bunch of ooh's and ahh's, and a number of other idiotic posts with almost no substance.
Oh please. Save the arrogant ad hominem attack for someone who cares. Your entire post is based on a number of over-generalizations and equation of the worst as representative of the community.
Face it. You're an idiot alienated by your own stupidity.
seriously :)
Thanks for all the supporting words! Just to put your minds at ease, I am getting excellent treatment that includes pouring various neurotransmitter enhancers and inhibitors into my brain, then taking the whole brain and shrinking it regularly.
Progress is slow but steady, but being "Net enabled" lets me take the pressure off of having to find an effective treatment NOW, and focus on taking things one day at a time.
Aside from being unable to socialize right now, I actually have quite a full life. I have my own consulting/contracting business (real-time and embedded systems). I work out about six hours a week, and have added 15 pounds of muscle in the past few months. For recreation I fly a paraglider (I have also been a paragliding instructor, and have competed at the national level). In the air, at least, I don't have to think too much about people; mainly the eagles and the clouds.
Yes, my friends and family worry about me when I "drop off the face of the earth" as I am prone to do during a prolonged depression episode. I should rephrase that: My friends and family WITHOUT EMAIL worry about me. Those who are on the Net can't tell the difference!
I suppose that's the point I'm trying to make. I'm not "all broken down". Only part of me is, that part of me that makes it easy and tolerable to hang out with other people in real-time. And even that "broken" part is completely irrelevant where the Net is concerned.
The Net does far more to enable me to circumvent some of the negative aspects of my depression than any of my prescriptions or therapy do. In that respect, it is keeping me sane (well, in a relative sense, I suppose).
But that's all it does. It does not push me out into the "real world", and it may in fact make it easier for me to put off that confrontation. Be that as it may. I'm just pleased as punch that I'm able to earn my living, live the parts of my life I can live, and stay the hell out of a hospital!
Thanks again,
- Bob
San Diego, CA
The expression you probably wanted was "I couldn't care less if he uses Word."
If you could care less, it means that you care, if you couldn't care less, its because you don't care.
thank you
dmg
Don't you know anything about the web? A .gif would have been about 1/4 of the size of the .jpg screen captures you posted on your web page.
One thing you made very clear is that the study doesn't actually talk about culture being in decline, but strictly limits itself to social interaction (albeit poorly defined). So all the people debating about how culture is changing might be right, but that has nothing to do with what the study tried to show. Give the profesors some credit, they might be dweebs, but at least they don't have bad intentions.
~dafezer~
I agree with both of you. The wealth of info and entertainment on the net is a fantastic pursuit, but it isn't everything. We all need to crawl out from behind our monitors, open the shades and breath fresh air once in a while, if only so we are healthy enough to concentrate when we go back to the computer ;)
I roll out of bed, find a cigarette and onto the net I go. Read the news at Yahoo or where ever, much better content then the TV provides. Check my mail, go on irc, make sure my web sites are still up and running. The net has spawned a whole new class of workers and it is not a bad thing.
The original poster is right, a lot of us were more alone before the net. Moderate this guy up?
Am I good or what? Not two days ago I predicted in the Oven lonliness column posted by taco that Katz would do a followup on it 6 days later. Well, he beat me by 3 days, but what the hell - I still predicted it! =)
I didn't spend enough time to read it... I figured I would just give my two cents without wasting my time reading his drivel.
ALL HAIL BRAK!!!
I noticed it too. Infact, I felt it was rather underhanded.
Katz's original story (on the dead of newspapers) was riddled with obvious proof he wrote it in Microsoft Word... all the ' characters were "?"'s instead.
He tried to quickly go back and correct them by hand, and when he saw the cat was already out of the bag, he pulled the article in its entirety to prevent people from knowing he made it in Microsoft Word.
Want proof?
Here you go -- I'm in the process of uploading the proof as we speak. I took screen snapshots of the original article out of my browser cache. The snapshot of the article was taken after he went back to correct the Microsoft Word mistakes. My reply (#10) was written with a direct quote from the original version. Here's the URL:
http://www.linuxpimp.com/~bowie
Now you know why we hate you, Katz.
Bowie J. Poag
Project Manager, PROPAGANDA For Linux (http://propaganda.themes.org)
Bowie J. Poag
Your point is almost valid, but think about this. I am not a "loser", nor am I anti-social. And I didn't respond the first time saying "I'm not a loser!", why? Because I didn't have anything I cared to say. And the few thoughts I did have were already said.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I think you are so eager to tear Jon katz to pieces that you don't even take time to read what he writes, or writes about. his whole point was that many of us use the internet, not as a means to escape society, but as a way to communicate with people who don't happen to be right down the street.
adding to this, I believe electronic communication is a Dang Good Thing (TM). it allows the rapid movement of ideas all over the world, across racial, political, and physical borders. however, people do tend to attack what they fear, this is sad, and tends to hurt the very best inovators and thinkers. but as a part of this society, we need to keep the lynch mobs and zealots at bay, through education and understanding. (not through our own zealotry and bigotry)
I am not especially a fan of Jon katz, but, for crying out loud, please at least read the article before posting. it will keep slashdot at least a little more spam-free.
and that's my long-winded response.
I can agree with you almost completely. One of the reasons that the Net is wonderful is because we can exchange infomation and idas at an unprecedented rate. However, an intellectual exchange is not the same as a community. /. will not make create a relationship that will last the rest of your life. And, although you can meet people in a chat room, how can an online chat buddy every be the same as a friend? One of the great things about friends is that they know (and guess) more about you than you tell them. That means that they can help you, and you can help them, when you need to. Noone at /. will realize when you're sick or hurt, and probably noone would care. :)
Posting to
So, yes, I should probably force myself off the computer once in a while
-rainbowfyre
Yes, I am aware that "Moderation in all things" is a very tired saying. BUT, it applies to just about everything that we do. Just as it's not good for us to chain smoke or drink a 12 pack of Budweiser in a sitting, neither is it good for us to sit in front of a monitor all day. The net is a wonderful tool, yes, but it has it's dark side. And no, I'm not refering to all the crackers and script kiddies out there. The net can be a place where you can learn and grow as a person, however, it can be detrimental to our social functions. Typing to someone in China you don't know is a hell of a lot easier than just walking up to someone on the street where you live. It boggles the mind how looking someone in the face can change everything. It is very easy to get accostomed to this mode of interaction. It is easy, and painless. A rejection online is no where near as bad as a rejection in the real world...It is very easy to see how people can become "addicted" to the net. The net removes all social boundries, you are able to open up to people much easier than outside in the real world. That must be comfortable to those people that can't seem to fit in, or don't want to. This comes at a cost though. People NEED interaction, REAL interaction. Not talking to someone on IRC or AIM, we need to look someone in the face as we talk to them, to see their reaction. Our language is incapable of describing many of our emotions. It's even harder to do so through the written word. Much of our perceptions of others have NOTHING at all to do with what comes out of their mouth. We relie on so many other things that sometimes words aren't even needed. In losing ourselves and our identities on the net, do we not lose part of ourselves IN REAL LIFE?
I've been involved with the internet (what their study calls excessive) since 1995. In 1997 I was on maybe 2-6 hours a day after discovering high speed internet.
Anyway, enough of the history. I met my current girlfriend over the internet; converse with many people regularly from around the world via newsgroups, e-mail and even IRC sometimes.
I'm sorry, I've come to the conclusion that these people only saw what they wanted to see. They didn't go into the fact that with many people it just cuts into their TV time - which is obviously much more anti-social -- but they aren't reporting on that because it isn't the current vogue topic.
As well, interaction on the net is still human interaction -- and many times is even more articulated and thought out exchange of information and ideas.
I can feel just as akin to someone across the world where the medium is text than a person I'm sharing a beer at the local bar, or am checking out the latest movie with. They're luddites who are having problems accepting the change IMO.
Now, I wouldn't qualify for an extreme case (like 10+ hours a day like some people here), but I do know some people who spend extended amounts of time on the internet and much of that is social interaction. Through dialogue (unsurprisingly, people are more open on the internet about their personal thoughts/emotions), it seems you just have to get some balance as in the basics in physical interaction such as sex, music, experiencing the outside world/nature whatever and you're all set.
5 or so hours a week though, give me a break. I seriously question the report.
I am a developer for an ISP, so I spend 8 hrs/day 5 days/wk at work, and my weekends are spent coding in my free time, because of the demands set on me. Also, I spend the rest of my time relieving stress in Quake3, so I spend about 90 hours/wk on the net or atleast in front of a computer. The only time I get away from computers is 4 days a month to my fiancee's house on a farm, far, far away from the city... which is a nice break. I don't feel lonely, nor do I think that the internet 'isolates' people. I started monkeying with computers when I was 10 years old, I started a BBS called Cannibal Bar & Grill in Toronto, Canada when I was 11... and as a result, it has furthered my knowledge, and also has connected me with people who have the same interests.
You post a kissin' cousin to a spelling flame, and then complain when Katz fixes the spelling?
New rope. Hanged. Gripe.
Make me aerodynamic in the evening air
Wrong.
And right. A scientest doens't find the truth. A study doesn't find it either. They mearly say "when I did this, that happened, so this other thing may be true". The scientific community is fairly untrusting (for good reasons), so before they start beleving it, they read the paper very carefully, and "do this" to find out if "that happens". Then they will try "almost this" and see if "almost that happens". They will think of other reasons why X may cause Y. Eventually they might start beleving that X really does cause Y. Then again they might not.
A single study is the begining of a process. It is almost the same as "Some guy named Bob thinks The Internet sucks", it's almost worthless in and of itself. Only after other people have repeated the study and verifyed the results can it even start being useful. They also have to see if there are other explnations.
For this study, I expect the results will be repatable, but the "only 24 hours in a day" thery might win out over "people that use the Internet are mean" thery.
What happened to http://slashdot.org /article.pl?sid=00/02/21/1125208&mode=thread?
It looks like it has been moved to the 23rd. Maybe Rob doesn't want him publishing in slashdot too offen (or maybe Katz doens't want to publish here too offen -- lord knows he must get a ton of mail each time).
I would guess he decided he wants this one published in a more timely manner, and the other will wait until Wensday.
Well, that study is absolutely right. I'm orange, and I rarely buy stuff. Most orange people are like that ;)
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
I think the Internet is a place for people who would normally be insecure and/or lonely to harbor. The Internet doesn't cause it.
That's like saying that people who watch soap operas lead lonely lives.
I'm on the Internet all day at my job, and some at home. Then I go out and live my life like I always have. I wouldn't say I've isolated myself more -- I've made a lot of good contacts on the Internet. It's just a new way of communication. Now for shy/lonely people, it might be a way to express themselves easier -- is that wrong, does that make them more lonely? No, if anything it might help them not feel so out of touch?
Everyone is different though. Personally I haven't seen a pattern.
Many people are submitting The Obvious article about Jon Katz not belonging on Slashdot. I guess I'm glad that in the end its up to me. Personally, I think most of his articles are good. xach sent us a deja news bit that goes much further. I agree with most of the stuff in these articles, but I also think most of Katz's articles are worth reading, but when he mentions his book, I press the back button. You can too. -- Rob Malda
Now, if you don't like Slashdot, you're free to go somewhere else and start up another site of your own, just like "the old slashdot." If the "old Slashdot" was so much greater than the current version, then you're guaranteed an audience. If you don't have the stones to act on your beliefs, then the only self-respecting alternative is to zip your lip.
I get bugged by your whining. Katz has his faults, but at least he's focussed on some things more significant than what word processor someone is using. I look at your comments and ask: what of significance are you contributing to either the atmosphere or the discussions here?
mp
"The secret to strong security: less reliance on secrets." -- Whitfield Diffie
In some circles, this is known as backpedalling. First you make a big production out of Katz's supposed using of Word, then you deny that you thought it was a big deal. I think there's a career for you in politics.
As far as Katz claiming to be an "expert" in things technological, I defy you to produce a single quote out of any of his articles where he has made such a claim. C'mon, you wrote it, now back it up.
The truth is, of course, you can't -- time for more backpedalling.
One thing that Katz brings to /. is some voice of moral conscience. To you, the idea of morality, conscience and technology mixing together is offensive. Apparently, to Rob Malda it's an important mix. Discussion of how technology impacts moral decisionmaking is significant -- there should be more of it, not less.
Ironically, your behavior and that of the other "Katz haters" merely demonstrates an online inanity and immaturity that goes far to validate the stereotype of the clueless technophile. Some people say Jon Katz polarizes Slashdot. No, he doesn't. He's not responsible for your hateful, sneering behavior. You are.
mp
"The secret to strong security: less reliance on secrets." -- Whitfield Diffie
I spend near every waking moment in front of a CRT. I actually work, but I code, so I am there in front of one all day, cranking out code. Rarely there will be a meeting.. but thats 40-50 hours actually there in front of one just for work. (Obviously connected to the net)
Then I get home, and I code and work on other computer projects.. same for the weekend. That adds up to about 80+ hours per week.
I cant think of anything else as stimulating and satisfying as computer work (code, design, etc)
Sure, I could go shoot some pool and whatnot.. but, why?
For those who truly enjoy technology and the unlimited possibilites it provides, that big blue room is rather pale and boring in comparison. Nothing wrong with some real world activites every know and then, by by and large Id much rather spend my time elsewhere.
Have you sought help via chemical means? SSRI's, neural stimulants, etc?
adderall is a great anti depressant for those who have been misdiagnosed. Sounds like you depression may stem from an insufficient number of inhibitory neurons and too many dopamine receptors.
Check it out.
Do you regurgitate everything you hear?
They are addictive in raw form when misused
And its not an anti depressant, true, but I said MISDIAGNOSED, and depression is a very common side effect of ADD.
Some of the symptoms he mentioned sounded quite similiar to ADD more than depression, so I suggested he check that angle if not already.
True, its mixed amphetamine salts, but roughly 75% dextro isomer, which enhances mental processes while produced very mild secondary stimulation. This is completely in accordance to treating the symptoms of ADD caused by lack of inhibitory neurons and too many dopamine receptors.
All of this is well documented, go read a book before you spout off unfounded bullshit.
There's more to life than sitting in front of a computer, no matter what it's hooked up to
Of course, i never said there wasnt. But for some this may be the majority of their life, and I still insist that this is not a BAD THING.
Besides, I wish you'd get off the "well, it's better than boozing" thing
My only point with that statement was to highlight the fact that in all of the studies, such an activity would be considered harmless or even 'good'. While extensive net use is 'bad'. That rediculous no matter who you state it.
Can you have sex with your girlfriend for 20 hours straight?
;)
What happened to Jon's article about importance of newspapers?
ALL HAIL BRAK!!!
I am asking that the troll for my response below the AC response to this statement be fixed. If you will read this thread, my statement below (response back to AC) is in perfect condition due to the discussion here. I was not stating that Katz always writes drivel. I was stating that the previously pulled article was drivel. Thus why it was pulled. (READ THE FUCKING THREAD BEFORE YOU MODERATE, AND MAYBE PICK UP THE GUIDELINES EVERY ONCE IN A WHILE.) Sorry about the shouting, but I just had moderator status last week, and well, the guidelines are nice and detailed about how you should use your responsibility. Plus, if you had seen that this thread was only about the disappearance, the worst it should get is Off topic, and definitely not Troll, if you read the thread.
Primarily I'm complaining cause I'm within context of this discussion stemming from my #2 post. please read it and then make your almighty decisions.
Karma:19 and dropping???
ALL HAIL BRAK!!!
This is actually the first time I read a JonKatz-posting, and I must say he is a good writer. I don't know what people dislike about him. It was a well-written, well-thought out article, and he really was careful not stepping on anyone's toes.
I assume your comments were intended to fall into the catagory of Signal, right? Because a self-righteous person such as yourself would never stoop so low as to post "Mindless babble" such as might come from a "limp-dick amateur flamethrower", right?
Judging from the obscenity laden nature of your post, I'm guessing you're not significantly more intelligent than the individuals to whom you'd like to present the "clue bat". While bitching about the S/N ratio, you've added to the noise. Great plan. That'll help.
Hands the "clue bat" back to the person that needs it. Oh, and fuck you too.-Jer
-Jer
Did the Internet keep me from becoming a blonde, buff business major who joins a fraternity and boffs cheerleaders. No! I'd rather shag a sheep than someone who giigles all the time.
Hey man, no offense, but if your cheerleader girl was giggling while you were having sex with her, I don't think she's going to be all that heartbroken about losing you to a sheep. :)
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
Heh.. here's the link to Katz's original article that he posted this morning, before trying to pull it. Hopefully, it will still be there by the time you read this. Dont be surprised if it isnt. If Katz deletes it to make the cover-up complete, I've provided a link to it snapshotted off my own browser. Im surprised people arent screaming "censorship!!" over his attempt to quietly dispose of the criticisms people (like myself) were giving him on the original article he removed.
The article Katz pulled this morning
Snapshots of the post before it was pulled off Slashdot
To study or to play,
Bowie J. Poag
Project Manager, PROPAGANDA For Linux (http://propaganda.themes.org)
Bowie J. Poag
You can piss vinegar all you want about me , thats fine..You're welcome to. However, it doesn't erase the facts.
The fact is, Katz DID posted a different article this morning. The article was viewed many people, probably a few hundred of us. Had it remained online, he would have been flamed to no end for using Word by many of us.
The fact is, he posted it, and immediately people (like me) saw the embarassing truth.. By the time he (Katz) corrected it, it was already too late. The cat was out of the bag, and the flames were shaping up to be pretty immense. Now, in my opinion, to avoid having his reputation among Linux users sink even further, Katz used his power as a Slashdot author to then pull the article out of circulation, negating everyone who had posted responses to the original post in the process. Thats what I looks like to me. I call it like I see it.
Now, if i'm right, that means two things -- Katz's behavior not only smacks of stupidity, it smacks of censorship. If he's not prepared to take the full breadth of criticisms lodged against him (no matter how lame or intelligent) then he doesn't belong here, let alone in the profession he's chosen.
See, he has the ability to erase embarrasments like this. Ask yourself, do you have the same ability here on Slashdot?
And shouldn't you?
And why not?
Bowie J. Poag
Project Manager, PROPAGANDA For Linux (http://propaganda.themes.org)
Bowie J. Poag
I could care less if he uses Word. It would confirm alot of suspicions I have (i.e. Katz doesn't know a tinker's damn about the very things he claims to be an expert on) ..I just thought it would be interesting for people to know what happened this morning.
:)
As for going and making a new Slashdot somewhere else...naah. I've always said, imitation isn't the sincerest form of flattery. Imitation is showing the world youre too lazy and too stupid to do it better yourself.
Slashdot has problems. Doesn't mean we should turn our backs on it, tho. Its just the problems are becoming more numerous. The Linux community is turning from a fun experiment into a class-driven heirarchy of haves and have-nots. It just isnt the same anymore.
Bowie J. Poag
Project Manager, PROPAGANDA For Linux (http://propaganda.themes.org)
Bowie J. Poag
I call it like I see it. Katz's blather doesn't really belong here on Slashdot, IMHO. It never has, and I really don't think it ever will. This isn't simple Katz-bashing. He's earned his reputation, just the same as all of us have earned our respective reputations.
I think in the long run, the addition of Jon Katz to Slashdot will go down in the books as the beginning of the end. I remember when Slashdot used to be a friendly place. Now we're all polarized into camps due to the anger generated by a singular idiot on a soapbox. To this day, I dont think many of us really know _why_ Rob put this guy here, or why he insists on keeping him here.
Square peg, round hole. No matter how hard you bash the damn thing, twist it or encourage it to fit, it never will.
I miss the old Slashdot.
Bowie J. Poag
Project Manager, PROPAGANDA For Linux (http://propaganda.themes.org)
Bowie J. Poag
Science does not really find truth. Now that's a philosophical discussion, but it's an important idea to get your head around when you look at studies like this. Every scientist colors their research with their own ideas. Every bit of science has a bit of social phenomena and 'buzz'.
If this researcher looks at the data in front of him and said 'People like the Internet and that's ok.' would we be talking about the study right now?
/*---------------------------*/
Man? What is man?
But a collection of chemicals with delusions of granduer.
/*---------------------------*/
Man? What is man?
But a collection of chemicals with delusions of granduer.
adderall isn't an antidepressant - by any means. it is mixed amphetamine salts, and amphetamines arent for chronic use - they're way too addictive.
Okay, first. The study is right. There are people who have isolated themselves via the internet. One doesn't have to be interactive to use the Internet. You can logon, browse for hours and loggoff without making one personal contact. That's not all the internet offers, but it can be done. You could call them lurkers. I've used the net in that capacity the majority of the time. And I believe that this type of person is what the study is trying to analize.
Unfortunately, its not that simple, of course. The study is wrong because of the reason Katz puts forward above. Its wrong because you have to choose to be anti-social. I think that the very people that this study is supposedly identifying are just transplants from some other "anti-social" medium. Maybe they watched TV all day before. Maybe they played video games all day. Maybe they read books all day. Most people wouldn't consider that in the same way as this study, but I don't see the difference. No human contact (e-mail, chat, phone or in person) is no human contact.
The bottom line is that technology isn't the problem. I don't think its the answer either. I believe that it hasn't been any different since the beginning. We create our own problems and we need to fix them. Technology is just another excuse for people to blame their problems on instead of themselves.
Without the net I would be totally unproductive today.
Last week I sprained my ankle and due to doctors orders I must stay off my feet a couple of days.
By using my DSL access and cell phone I can keep up with the folks at work as well as be productive on some of my other projects. I don't feel isolated at all, but empowered. I also saved money and the environment by not driving the 27 miles to and from work today.
I have found that technology is the whipping boy for those who do not understand it, and a servant to those who do.
I have to agree with you on this one... with the exception that this is one of the best things to come from Katz. I love to bash Katz as much as anyone, but this time, he got it right.
A lot of people know only the commercialized side of the net, and aren't familiar with the tens of thousands of special interest mailing lists, special interest web sites, etc. Only when something makes the rounds, like hamsterdance.com or something, are they ever even dimly aware that ebay and aol are just the tip of the iceberg.
What is wrong with this study is that it loudly insists that the commercialized web is the only thing on the internet, and does so in a way that is a travesty even were it to appear on the local news.
Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
I spend 10-12 hours online or otherwise on a computer each day. 8 hours at work and another 2-4 hours at home.
My first intellectual addiction was TV. Growing up I learned more from PBS than school. In the Navy I got hooked on books. Finding a good book I haden't read started getting tough. I messed around with computers and programming since HS. When I put together my first PC I got hooked on computers. Hardware and then progressively more programming.
When AOL started offering unlimited access I signed up. Bopped around a bunch of flamer tardo infested chat rooms but eventually found the escape hatch (buried deep within the bowels of AOL) to the internet. I dropped AOL after a month. Found a good ISP.
What attracts me to the web is the endless knowledge. I've always been what I call a tangential thinker. I like to work on many things at once. Hopping from one idea/knowledge quest to the next. TV doesn't give you what you want, only what they feel like producing. Books are expensive and tough to find. The net gives me whatever I want whenever I want it.
Sure I have a life outside the computer. I have three wonderful children and an awesome wife. My wife is getting hooked on the net for her own reasons (chatting and buying stuff). I closely monitor my children when they are on the computer. The oldest is only four and unlike my parents I understand that a smart 12y/o has the ability to take responsibility.
I feel more alive now that at any time in the past. I feel connectd. I love this Open Source movement and the sharing of knowledge. So much so that within the month I'm starting a Linux computer business.
Yes I do things out in the physical world. But for me at least, my time on the internet is adding to my life not taking away from it.
The net ain't gravity, the Model-T or Elvis. Its just a bunch of people connecting.
I don't think you are alone, but something may be wrong...
You sound kinda like I was about 7 years ago (with the exception that I had a job). I would wake up, go to work, be on the machine, come back home, be on the machine till bedtime (or longer!), fall asleep - and do it all again the next day. On the weekends I might go to the comic book store, but most of the time was spent on the machine, coding, coding, coding...
I didn't have any friends - just the people I knew at work (thankfully it was a small startup, few employees - more like a family to me, as I look back on it). I sure the hell didn't have a girlfriend. At the time, I was heavy on the BBS'ing, and just discovering the net. I had a nervous breakdown once.
That pretty much set me on a new course - the isolation, I guess, really got to me (of course, the net is much better now than BBSing - if I had what the net offers today, then, things might be totally different - but I digress) - I felt that if I didn't make a change, I would either be committed in short order, or I would be dead - by my own hand.
To make a long story short, I am still alive, I have many friends, the net, a fiance, and many more experiences in life (I live in Phoenix, AZ - my GF and I once hiked the trail to Green Boulder in the Superstitions - when you get to the top, you are rewarded with a bench and the most magnificent view - a chance to rest and reflect, I guess).
If you are scared something is wrong - perhaps there is. I don't know where you live, but get out, and check out what is going on outside the machine - it will be there when you come back. Find one individual you can be with often (not necessarily all the time, but often - to share feelings with, to talk over issues) - two is even better (one of each sex, the view difference is amazing). One thing I have with my fiance is her wonderful and caring family - you can never have too much support in life.
I do notice that you say you aren't lonely - maybe you aren't - may the internet is meeting your needs. But the fact that you say you are scared something is wrong leads me to think that you may be rationalizing things - when in reality, you know deep inside that what is going on in your life isn't right. So, examine yourself. Maybe everything is ok, maybe not...
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
>>Oddly enough, despite the often held belief that computers and internet are for the young, it's the elderly who are really getting their money's worth. The internet allows those people unable to get around easily to meet and talk to people of similar ages and with similar experiences. When you reach an age where most of your friends have passed on it's nice to have a place where you can make new friends<<
Absolutely right. We got my wifes' mom WebTV (please no flames, the explanation would take too long). Now she emails the whole family at least twice a week, and gets email in return. It's wonderful for all of us.
Keeps us more in touch and saves her mom a lot of time (letter writing) and money (no postage, a lot less long distance phone calls, etc....).
My own mom is an avid email user and internet surfer, she is over 60 and has no problems using her laptop to organize her life.
I have to agree with some of the respondents, just what planet were the researchers studying?
First, and I hate to break this too you, for a lot of people, the problems with using word are far less than trying not to use it, due to things like, oh, the majority of the world. You probably don't need to be told this, but, I figgure for the reading audiance out there, it's a wise thing to point out.
/.'s problems come from people who have grown intolerent of differences, and the like. They want /. to only carry stories on Linux (like your paragraph could be read to), or that humor posts should be moderated down, or any of the hundreds of other issues people have about it.
Now, as for you suspicions, may I point out that Katz's articles are not about technology? He's writing about society and people, not source code and silicon. If he was clueless, he couldn't get what he gets, but for that sort of thing, you don't need to be able to rattle off the latest offical Linux source in it's entirty.
Now, as for your final paragraph. A lot of
Furthermore, talking about how things are different, and setting up qualifications (i.e. your comment on Katz's knowlage for your first paragraphy), are at the cornerstone of creating haves and have-nots, us and they, etc.
So, can't we just stop saying what is right and belongs and what is wrong and should be deleted, and just concentrate on sharing opinions and information?
What's wrong with screwing sluts? :)
They've got the skills, ya know!
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Belgium HyperBanner
http://belgium.hyperbanner.net
Linux hosting for $2.50/mo
Hmm, since I've lost my LAN connection, I've felt really disconnected and lonely.
Go figure.
I also have more hobbies than the average Multiple Personality inflicted person.
Part of my loneliness, I know, comes from me really wanting attention, and it's hard on the 'net to get that. So, twice a week, I go and tell stories at open mics around the area.
And I play music, and 4 or 5 video games, too, that i play over and over.
And my quake levels (q3 level, http://www.ilstu.edu/~drmaure/Q3/cath-drm.zip).
And I write papers for all my classes, too.
and I reload slashdot for the 6 hours a day I'm online, over a modem. Doesn't it suck.
later
Dan
As long as I have my ISP, my Willie Nelson albums, and a 12-pack. hehe.
:)
Serioulsy...I'll read the study before I open my mouth in a serious manner.
I couldn't have said it better myself. Mr. looie got it right.
Katz gives the non-technical view of technology and it's effect on the world. I feel we need that point of view. There is many a time I don't agree with him, but I address that in context with the article. To attack him about the length of the article or the word processor he used in ludicrous. You evaluate a writer by his writing.
You say you miss the old slashdot, well the reason for that is because it's audience was smaller and more specialized. Since the publicity that Linux and the open source community has had, many people have jumped into the fray. The fact that the Slashdot effect is a type of DDoS shows this. And with any large community there will be things that you don't like and things you do. I often hear people talking about my hometown and how they liked it better when it was smaller. It's always like that. You have to focus on what you like and just keep your eye on the stuff you don't.
Slashdot is ever evolving, either keep moving with it our you'll be swept up in it and end up a troll who keeps complaining about every last thing posted.
It would appear that what the study defines is that, where any of the desireable elements is missing, the result is lessened. Keywords here are 'desireable' and 'lessened'. Each places a value on the condition and finds that the collective result is other than 'optimal' for the microcosm examined. We live in a larger world than one household, one city block; we find ways to cope with the separations of time and space. The study fails to account for the biggest part of human relations, familiarity and ease of communication. To the extent that any medium enhances this, it will be adopted, willingly and enthusiastically. From our experience, we go on to another place, from which we develop further into our next condition.
The Internet works because of the tools that have been enabled and the efficiency of those tools in enabling creative, individual solutions for problems. We can become and remain familiar with each other at previously impossible distances and ways. Our thoughts and ideas can be understood around the world in places and ways our parents could not have thought possible. I do wonder at the effects the advertising/merchandising model being used to fund Internet development will have, skewing its growth to enhance those ends. Ultimately, we will collectively resolve the issue and move beyond it, to another.
Actually, I've found that the net is quite a social place. It helps me keep contact with friends I'd otherwise not see very often. It has also allowed me to meet people from all around the world (some of which I've met). And best of all, it has provided me with some fine booty :)
http://www.logient.com
Katz has started throwing little bits of chatspeak into his articles like f2f and "that's my two bytes". Is this an attempt to appeal to computer (l)users, or has he just picked up some pithy sayings from his buddies in the chat rooms? That's what I think. Let's hear from you.
CeBIT 2000 is banning online journalists from their Hanover, Germany trade show. Tom's Hardware can't get in. Reuters can't get in. the Register can't get in.
It's a good thing IBM and PSion are sponsoring net journalists to get in.
So yes, the net is isolation. Isolation caused by choice. But it is not a completely different planet.
Differentiating the net from other media on any basis other than content is what causes big shows like CeBIT to dismiss the net as a fringe entity, when in fact their most interested audience use the net, not TV, and not even newspapers to communicate, though thankfully they do write books.
http://linuxtoday.com/story.php3?sn=17047
http://linuxtoday.com/story.php3?sn=17046
Time to open up a CompUnix shop so people don't go home clueless. If people need Windows (every other alternative has a Unix leaning BeOS for example.) fine, but it's a whole different story when you're treated unfairly because you DIDN'T make yourself visible, or because a bunch of isolated mainstream creeps don't bother to stasy up to date.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
As if the researchers did any researching themselves.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
well you know you can filter out his posts if you dont like them..
I think its interesting that most people feel more compelled to complain about something. thinking that they are going to change society to please their particular prefrecnes.
Well...if you take history to be true then the group the study is talking about is a pretty damn good parallel to the Knights Templar. Started out as a small group and eventually had tons of money and power. Eventually got crushed because they were made out to be demon worshippers. Hopefully we wont see any geeks being burned at the stake anytime soon ;)
My blog: http://jkratz.dyndns.org/~jason/blog/
The REAL reason people are spending so much time online ....
They're reading Jon Katz postings on Slashdot! It can take up to 5 minutes just to read his posting, let alone all the comments.
And then if you post, you write, hit preview, fix and add stuff, spin, rinse, repeat.
Merde, il pleut encore!
I cant think of anything else as stimulating and satisfying as computer work (code, design, etc)
:)
I can think of a couple of things... Of course they mostly involve my girlfriend
"The obvious is that which is least understood and most difficult to prove." -- A fortune cookie
Well my friend, I cannot match that. I sleep 5 hours a day, sit in school 7 hours a day, work on the farm 3 hours a day, and then i spend the rest online.
--Have a Johsonville brat.
To paraphrase RAH, "80% of all human wisdom comes from learning to stay out of other people's business."
Didn't they open up pharmacies on the net so that it'd be a healthier place, anyway?
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Moo, Baby. Moo.
Separated by four hours of sleep.
I think hookers might do that in day's work.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
This signature contains text from the worlds funniest signature.
I can't be the only one wondering.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
This signature contains text from the worlds funniest signature.
jeeze, every chance to take a cheap shot at Katz, you people do. Grow up.
--------
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"Every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief."
It covers some problems with the Stanford study, and what questions we should be asking.
Drag n' Drop DVD Recommendations
I've just interact with people a whole different way on the net than I do otherwise. The phone is another way of interacting with people, but it isn't under fire, is it? For instance, I'm on IRC probally 3 or 4 hours a day, am I there by myslef? No. I'm talking to people I'd never meet otherwise. I know these people, and I enjoy having conversations with them. I BS just as well in person as I do online. I don't really trust people on the outside world, becasue they are jerks because I am different. These people know my name and every time I enter the room I'm greeted. I'm not discriminated against because I'm different, a different color, I come from a different country, etc. No one can tell what I am, and that leaves me to be judged the way people should be judged; by what they say or do.
Don't call my crazy, that's what they called me back in the home!
I realize that there are literally hundreds of responses to this message, and I don't expect mine to generate anything significant. However, on the off-chance that the researchers are looking to Slashdot to get some 'data', I thought I'd respond.
In my life, I've learned that everything of value is a double-edged sword. The Internet is certainly no exception.
Look to the other posts about shut-ins, people reaching more than before, and you'll see the upside. Look at the number of posts - including mine, and you'll clearly see the downside as well.
Any technology that so changes the human experience has got to be dangerous. If only for it's ability to paralize those for whom it's taken away. Imagine what would happen to the shut-ins that depend on PeaPod, or talking to their relatives, or whatever...
When my son was on a heart monitor, we had a letter from the hospital that we gave to the local power company saying "These people get power first" because of the machine. we could have watched him, monitored his condition without the machine, but that's how serious it was treated.
Is anyone really treating the internet as seriously?
It seems to me to be at least as important as the heart monitor was...
As someone who has used computers for about two thirds of my life, I feel I can say that, at least for me, the computer does isolate me from the rest of society.
My primary computer is a desktop. It is physically located in my dorm room, which means that when I am using it, I am by myself. Occasionally my roommate or a friend is there when I am using the computer, but my room is certainly not one of the social areas on campus, a room set aside by the college for people to congregate. By using the computer, I choose to be away from other people. Much of the time I spend using the computer is time I would spend socializing if I was not using the computer.
Another problem I see is email. It may allow more rapid communication, but I am not sure that this is neccessarily a good thing. When timeliness is important, it is wonderful. But it also lacks something important that handwritten letters have. It becomes unpersonal. Friendships that I kept up via email became incredibly stronger when I started writing real letters.
I think the internet is a valuable tool, quite possibly of equal significance to movable type. But I think that it can isolate, and that we need to consider how the technology is affecting us.
If your cheerleaders are sheep, no wonder you're giggling...
(Any other missed sheep-cheerleader-giggle permutations?)
--
--
It's not the rambling I object to, so much as the mumbled incoherancies...
My aunt and I, who used to get the chance to have a good long talk once or twice a year when I'd visit, now communicate by email two or more times a day. We email each other digital pictures all the time.
My friends are all either people I met through the net or people I met through friends I met through the net.
On my latest business trip, I sat in the taxi on the way to my client and wrote emails on my cell phone to arrange dinner with friends for that evening.
I emailed a picture to Ghana, where it was hand-dyed onto fabric which was later delivered to me.
I have faxed by email from the beach, and AT&T wasn't needed.
In 1990 I got my first Internet account. It was email-only. Yet, even that was enough to tell me this technology would change the world, and that this was the rising star to try to hook my career to. Today I live the Internet lifestyle. I'm a web developer, creating sites for both major corporations and tiny organizations. I make my phone calls on the net. I shop on the web. When I have new interests, I research them on the web. I spend at least 8 hours a day on the net for professional purposes, and often serveral more for personal reasons.
Isolated? I've never been more connected. The world is at my fingertips. Anything I want to learn, anyone I want to talk to, anything I need to buy, it's all right here. The people I love can reach me via the net any time, any place, and I leave my job in the office.
In the end I have to conclude that these pundits who ramble on about the destruction of society and disconectedness of netizens are not only confused, they're stupid. I live the Internet lifestyle and wouldn't trade it for the world.
Has it ever occured to you that the casual slashdot reader knows practically nothing about social psych and that psychology is not as intuitive as most people seem to think? Have your read the study or any peer review of it?
I think I know. Flame me if you think I'm out in left field, but here goes:
Well, you did ask....
I think They are scared. "They" are the pointy haired bosses, the university deans, the brokers, everyone who's a middleman and raking in the cash. They see the potential for their power to slip away, for mere mortals to talk directly to God without purchasing an indulgence from the local priesthood. People like Bob Young and Jeff Bezos and a couple gents named Larry and you and me have, not overtly, but just as loudly, nailed our 95 Theses to the doors of Redmond and 1600 Pennsylvania.... and the fertilizer is beginning to hit the rotating ventilation device. But it's no longer politic to simply send in the Knights Templar and squash the revolution. First you have to demonize it in the press. Alternatively you can attempt (Microsoft, Algore, AOL) to co-opt it for yourself.
And this relates to a scientific study coming out of a reputable university HOW?
OK, lets think outside the box for a moment. Lets, just for one second, imagine that there is no mass illuminati-esq conspiracy out to crush geek culture because they are of so threatened by our superiority. What if some psych grad students or profs at a good university were looking to expand their work in social isolation and connection (psych researchers generally stay in one field and build on their advisor's research). And what if they just happened to notice that their favorite pool of lab rats (the undergraduate psychology student) had, over the last decade or so, gained a whole new entertainment and social outlet? You know, I think they would study it. All by their little lonesomes, not out of fear or prejudice or awe, but just because it makes a real straightforward study that could use a dependant variable (social isolation) which has probably been used before and has accepted measurment criterion, a really easy to chart independant variable (time on line doing various things) and a nice neat statistical framework to analyse the data.
And what if, once they did study it, they ran the data and found some results? Gee, I wonder if they would publish?
Frankly, the responses to this study have been pretty damn amusing to someone who has studied psych and been arround the decision making process of your average university psych research department. Look, some guys ran a test because they needed to do research. They got some results. Deal with it. No one is saying "everyone who uses the computer for more than X hours is socially isolated and a loser." They are saying that increased usage is correlated with social isolation, even when much of the usage is social in nature.
And next week we will explain the difference between "everyone in this group is better than everyone in that group"; "there is a statistically significant difference between the two groups"; and "some are, some aren't".
-Kahuna Burger
...will work for Chick tracts...
Everybody wants to be somebody. People want to be unique, maybe not to friends but somewhere as a human, (male) you want to be the best but often settle for far less. Some people have a lot more desire.
To each there own yes. Many people only want other people to realize they are individuals and that they are not like everyone else and no one else is 'just' like them
Its true EVERYONE is someone who is not like someone else who is not like me.
That said what do all of these stupid studies MEAN. Nothing they are beggining to feel like 'Benchmarks for Society'. (coin that phrase?)
Yeah I know its a bit dreamy.. people are somewhat predictable. But Everyone IS different.
Do people become losers after using computers, or were they already losers to begin with?
As for myself, I was a half loser before becoming interested in computers. Now I have completed the other half.
well sex is can be less tiring than hacking perl or configuring X
The irony was pretty sharp as reflected in last week's "LonelyNet"discussion. Although by no means a scientific sample, hundreds of the very people portrayed as isolated from human contact by the Internet disagreed
Dear John,
Perhaps there was no irony at all. Is there an emoticon for irony ? Perhaps the people who wrote to you weren't lonely. Perhaps instead they were angry, irritated, or felt the need to inform you that you presume a great deal, and that reality is different to how you portray it in your musings.
The great luxury of journalism is that it isn't rigorous or scientific. Most journalists still submit copy counted by the word. This discourages verbosity, and rigour is a luxury they can't afford. Perhaps we need an article on how the internet is changing the face of journalism
# ----- (insert an irony emoticon here) -----
Stephen Hawking has written another book. It's about time as well.
Oh yea, reading a newspaper is a real social activity.
Jacob Nielson makes some interesting points on these "loneliness surveys" in his latest alertbox article. One particularly good point is the fact that the web has helped to integrate one's professional life with one's private life, and that perhaps such compartmentalization is worth re-thinking.
Right on. Read it here.
A. Keiper
Maybe its not research, but its a bit of skeptiscism that shows a need for more research. I gotta admit, I haven't read hte paper yet myself, but I have some questions I'm gonna be looking at when I go to read the paper. How does the use of the net vary among age groups? How does it vary by profession or career? Educational level? The basic point, here is whether the older group--or the so called lay users--are using the net as essentially another television set or whether they're using it as a connection tool. For the Slashdot crew, we live tech and incorporate it in our professional lives. So, its not a leap for us to bring it into our personal lives as way to socialize. I mean, we use IRC, Muds, Mucks, Chats, and play Net Quake--or whatever. So, we're connected, but the majority of people on the Internet these days are not technical. Do they use the net the same way we do? I have a feeling that all too many people use the web as a glorified TV. That type of use does represent isoloation. Now the question that I hope the study answers is: "How do people use the Net?"
I understand why the slashdot community seems to have a hatred for Mr. Katz. His articles show a very limited understanding of the whole open source and internet community. His articles seem to be more of the "Don't you see how the world is treating you bad?" variety. On the whole, the world treats us pretty good. Yeah, maybe we dont get to sleep with supermodels, or were social outcasts in high school. Big woop, life aint perfect, but most of us work in one of the quickest growing professions ever, and the world seems ready to pay us for our knowledge and expertice. We have access to move information quicker than anyone thought possible. Life is not as bad for the geeks of the world as Mr. Katz paints it out to be. So what if a stupid little study says we are isolating ourselves. Is the structure of the world going to suddenly change because of it? Are companies start paying less for computer professionals because it stunts socialization? I wouldn't be on it. The sky is not falling, and the world (with the exception of the NSA, the CIA, the RIAA, and the MPAA ;)) is not out to get us. No Chicken little, the sky is not falling.
"My head hurts, My feet stink, and I dont love Jesus." -Jimmy Buffett
Frankly I haven't read the original study but I think that if
"The obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers." Bill Gates,
you know, i'm new to slashdot, but i've noticed a lot of people flaming jon katz without even bothering to evaluate his positions. i'd just like to say that as a person with an MA in US history, mr. katz is providing us all with an invaluable service. before flaming katz you all should realize that he's writing your epitaph. when historians come back 20-30 years from now looking at the origins of open source, the geek ascention, net culture, they're going to look heavily to katz. his ruminations about the net provide a very valuable insight into a cultural and technological phenomena that is shaking the very roots of our history. its time people begin realizing that although katz may not be a programming expert, he knows his stuff. he's cataloging this amazing thing that we're all shaping and being shaped by. keep that in mind next time before flaming him for using a microsoft product. future generations probably won't have any use for your wonderfully brilliant script, but katz is going to go down in history as our representative and chronicler, give him some respect and try to contribute something he can use.
What is that, some sort of icecream? Ridiculous!!!
I'm quite sure that if one told 1,000 ordinary Americans that John Katz wrote his columns in Word, 999 would look at you quizically and say "So?"
Eventually some ivory tower researcher would look at the archives of Slashdot threads, find the one above and use it an example of Net distortion, geek isolation/rebelliousness/angst/arrogance, and further proof how too much computer technology degenerates the human mind.
Most of the fear and uncertainty surrounding new technology stems precisely from the sort of individual above who can't distinguish the utterly inconsequential method of presenting an idea from the idea itself. If this is the Net, what good could it possibly be? According to this guy, the Ten Commandments couldn't be any good because they were written in stone, not plain text.
I fervently believe the Net can be a good, if not great, place. That potential can be partly found in threads on Slashdot. It's completely wasted by posters who actually claim to hate legitimate, thoughful authors becaue they use Word. I'm sick of them, flame wars be dammned. I am a courteous, kind person, but I'm not going to stand around here and let some fool set the tone for a thread.
Believe me, posters like Bowie are genuinely feared, even by a great number of net users. If I flame him, will he shut down my mailbox or attack my web server? Will he keep me on a list an keep me from getting hired in the future?
The response to this fear is to stay away, to stifle the human capability for reasonable discussion, exchange of ideas, and creativity. I know there are extremely insightful, funny, innovative thinkers out there who read this column who will never, ever join (or even read) a thread because they don't want to soil their minds with the utterly irrational venom. We'll never get to know those minds because of the fear.
I know how they feel, 'cuz right now I feel filthy, and I probably won't ever post to Slashdot again. I don't need the hatred, I do need a shower from it, and I've got far more productive, progressive things to do.
All because Katz writes in Word. None of these posts even remotely relates to the column itself. It's really very sad.
-
And I mean EVERYBODY.
One year ago I thought such studies are nonsense.
Then I read one from a nice chick at MIT.
--- If someone is interested, I can search it to publish it here. ---
Then I discussed it with a friend (a shrink).
LET's FACE IT:
We deal with people and information in another way John Street does.
And that's okay, we know more (news, weather), we experience more (discussions right here), we are way more powerful (information is power) than non-Netizens.
HOWEVER:
Meeting someone F2F has an advantage.
I alwayd denied that, because I didn't believe.
Since I'm absoluteley not the kind of guy who tends to socialize, I haven't changed my habits since I became a Netizen.
No need to, there were no friends, I could saw less.
And my TV doesn't miss me (okay, that's a guess).
I'm OUTING ME here, not using Anonymous Coward, so please give this a thought:
REAL life Example:
I have had 2 online friends who vanished.
One is still there.
I have one (in figures: 0x1) "in the flesh".
That's it.
OH - NO - SORRY: I have a nice cat; she just learned not to tamper with all these computer/video/sound cables here in my lab.
So that makes 1 cyber-buddy, 1 real life friend and a cat.
OUTING:
I thought this would be fine, -- but it isn't.
No need to prove that, because my feeling tells me (what about your feelings, honestly ?).
Yes,
I admit I'm feeling lonely from time to time.
What I miss, is a non-commerical service to find folks.
I don't go out unless I have a reason to, and where I live, there aren't much.
And I rather program than seeing folks get drunk, or discussing the weather.
What about PROOVING that it is possible to meet new friends, with our "cyberspace" methods (what a disgusting word) ?
Any ideas and suggestions ?
Use email if necessary for not to blow up the comments here.
BUT, I'm ONLY taking MYSELF as an EXAMPLE.
What if WE, HERE, just proove the opposite ?
Would help all those who feel lonely but don't dare to tell it, and would add a GREAT thing to Slashdot.
The first volunteer for that (possible) work is:
george./
If you hate Jon Katz so much, then why don't you just exclude his articles in your preferences and stop complaining so that the rest of us can read real comments.
Thank You,
Troll King
Thank You,
Troll King
Subscribe
I hope that a magazine like Brill's Content picks this up the way they did Jon's "Hellmouth" article. This message needs the wider audience it could get in a commecial print magazine (and Katz needs the kind of editing he gets in a commercial print magazine, too >:-).
It's just a study. And not a very good one, either. So why all the screaming and yelling and protesting?
It would seem to me that everybody's reaction to this study says a whole lot more than the words being used by people to defend their actions. What are you all so afraid of? What nerve, exactly, did this strike?
If you raise such a fuss everytime someone vaguely insinuates that you might be a loser then others might start thinking it's true, regardless of whether or not the original insinuation made any sense (which this one doesn't).
To brutalize Shakespeare: Ya'll protesteth WAY too much.
Using the net heavily doesn't necessarily mean a person is alone, or antisocial, or whatever future studies may suggest. You've probably noticed this yourself: many of us "addicted" net users have no problem talking to people face to face, and in fact we quite enjoy it; but isn't it ironic that the relative "anonymity" of the internet allows us to share personal thoughts and feelings that we might otherwise be too shy to reveal. Might this be how some of these net-initiated marriages happen? Or is it all thanks to "cybering"?
:-P ).
...
There are people who might not initially talk to you or to me in real life because they get a "vibe" (or think they do), yet the internet can dissolve those kinds of barriers and allow "jocks" and "preppies" to talk to "nerds" & "geeks" on equal terms (if the jocks can learn how to type properly
It's like a bunch of spirits floating around in free communication, with no prejudice based on physical appearance (I didn't mean to sound like a hippie, but deal w/ it) This is one of the ideals of the much-espoused Age of Aquarius you might have heard about as a child of the 70's...
It's of course annoying when corporations spout off about how the internet "levels the playing field", because they are most often the very ones who don't want it level... yet that trite phrase is true, or at least more true now than it's ever been. As long as you can still relate f2f with people, you're OK.
Some days I feel like I've been tarred and gzipped...
One thing about this study is that it makes me wonder, isn't there anything better they can spend their money on?
-- "It is my sacred and holy duty to see those guys suffer."
Well if you spend all of your time on-line, chating, playing Everquest, whatever, then you only get half of the human experience. I mean like 90% of human expression is through body language (posturing, tone etc...) so if you spend all of your time on-line you lose something. Sure you can look at pictures of the Colluseum on-line, but its alot more interesting in person. tiefling Parts is parts- the SPAM moto.
Did you get better?
"They have found a valuable resource that is growing with content every second. There are far worse places to be, and to each his own."
/. community might be content to let people do their own thing in life and not bother them about it, there's a huge number of people in the world who like nothing better than to but in on other people's lives for no other reason than that other life is different than their's is.
'to each his own' is not a phrase a lot of people tend to use I'm afraid. While you and I and it seems most other people in the
I agree with him here. Most other replies, people see "Jon Katz" and think "Blech". The Net doesn't isolate us, cause there are thousands of people there to meet and talk to. We are a community.
What most of Slashdot needs to do is to stop and read rather than blindly dismiss things.
Just because no one else mentioned it and i have karma to burn....looks like someone did a replace of all the "?" with " ' " hence the link http://slashdot.org/article.pl'sid=00/02/16/202122 1&mode=thread being proken when it should be http://slashdot.org /article.pl'sid=00/02/16/2021221&mode=thread just an observation...poor MS WORD...
sorry...got the link right, but the text should read http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/02/16/202122 1&mode=thread
You're simply living proof that he might be wrong about the bad effects of too much time on the 'net.
Here, let me deliver the death blow to your love of linux:
"For example, I've always liked PowerPoint, and I've always thought that Visual Basic was a good product." -- Linus Torvalds
Linus likes MS products?? Oh nooooooooo!
Oh yeah, and please stop using the "royal we" when expressing your opinions. We don't "hate" him. You do.
mp
"The secret to strong security: less reliance on secrets." -- Whitfield Diffie
Who cares if people are spending more time on the net and less with other pursuits (including people).
They have found a valuable resource that is growing with content every second. There are far worse places to be, and to each his own.
I find it hard to imagine that exploring a world of varied information could be detrimental while slamming a few drinks at the bar is 'good' for you.
Many slashdot readers have a passion for computers that extends beyond any rational behavior.
I would work on (read 'play with') computers even if I weren't paid for it. I would use them even if it were proven that they made a third arm grow out of my forehead. I can attempt to justify my love of these wonderful machines, but I cannot truly explain it to someone who does not have a similar passion. To most passionate artists, engineers and authors the explanation is obvious, if somehow difficult to express in words. To the outsider, this fascination seems excessive, even pathological. Perhaps it is.
This kind of fervor is, I believe, the reason for studies like the Stanford study. As long as there are engineers, programmers and neophiles with a mad passion for one technology or annother, there will be psychologists with a need to show how these technologies can consume time to the exclusion of 'normal' behavior.
Thank you for not thinking.
Thing is, though, I really do find part of the Stanford study to be true, at least where it concerns loneliness and chatrooms. I've admined them, used them occasionally for over 10 years now, and with that kind of perspective, you really do get a sense for what the Stanford people observed.
They really become enormous crutches for some people, and those same people are usually the quickest to deny it, but deep down I think they realize the harm. Once you get to know a lot of people online, at that point for many people, it becomes such an easier path than to bother cleaning up, dressing up, and going out with real live people. I've seen so many people gradually growing out of touch with their real friends for the ease of hanging out with their online friends.
I think that among the people who spend too much time chatting, there's this undercurrent of knowledge that it's not good for them, but it's always unspoken because it's something that's incredibly hard to admit -- whether it's out of stubborness that they're not wasting their time, not wanting to say that real life friends are more important than the online variety (I'm sorry, but they just are) out of sensitivity to their online friends who genuinely do have no real life friends, and even to spite studies like this one that (unfortunately) portray online people as losers. Even though I mentioned that it's an undercurrent, you can tell it's there whenever there's one of those huge fights on the talker -- that one, huge, final slam that almost always gets said (paraphrased): "Yeah, like I really care what someone who has no life outside of spending every waking hour on a talker thinks!" I'm telling you, you can practically feel everybody in the room -- not just the intended victim -- wince at that one, because of how it does or doesn't apply to them and their online friends.
Anyway, I think it's a pretty fascinating topic, and I could probably type for hours on it (but I'll stop myself before I get addicted ;-) ), so feel free to continue it.
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
When the sheep start giggling at you, you've got problems.
-ODB
http://slashdot.org /article.pl?sid=00/02/21/1125208&mode=thread
It was there this morning, and it's gone now. Why?
I'll bet I'm not the only one that gets confused when someone asks that question. 1st, I work there - 90% of my work is with computers other than the one I'm sitting in front of (Internet, intranet, extranet, whatever). Meanwhile the boxes at home are aDSL'ed and "on" 24x7. Does this mean "I" am on 10(work)+24(home) hours a day?
If I'm watching Canadian TV on the computer via net is that "tv time" or antisocial net time? 2 of the computers at home are connect to the DSL - does that mean I'm on the net 48 hours a day? If we don't count all the time the boxen are connected then how about all the time email is being downloaded or checked? When I'm across
the room and the box says "You've Got Mail" (Actually Barbera Eden "Master, I've got mail for you.")? Does it only count when I actually physically check it? Is the only net use that they really want to measure the time spent typing one-handed into IRC?
Basically I think the question is a bad one. Really bad. Meaningless. If you start a study with meaningless questions the bets that is ever coming out the other end is meaningless answers.
-- your Web browser is Ronald Reagan
The question shouldn't be "anyone stay on as much/more as me?", it should be "anyone able to stay on more as me and live?". No, I for one am not able to be online that much, I sleep 7 to 8 hours a day, sometimes go to the bathroom (otherwise the room really becomes messy), go out and get me some food and a new pack of beer and somtimes I feel the need to stretch my legs. Oh yeah, I have to go to work too, but there I'm online again the whole day. But 17 hours a day? That's way out of my league...
Thimo
--
Avoid the Gates of Hell. Use Linux!
Moi aussi. I am also on the Internet for 5-7 hours per day. I send in my homework by email, chat with my family by email, read slashdot, and have significant discussions on the the various chat media. I only use my TV to watch movies on the VCR (NO DVDs!-ban CSS!). Am I more isolated? Hell no! I have always been introverted, shy, socially awkward and I am 28 years old. I do my thesis research on the net as well as in the library. I go out to clubs and dance and mingle with people. I go on the net to talk to people who are just like me. Did the Internet keep me from becoming a blonde, buff business major who joins a fraternity and boffs cheerleaders. No! I'd rather shag a sheep than someone who giigles all the time. I have always been shy, but I do get out. I have gone through various stages in my life of social practice. I have been on the net for 11 years, all my problems date from before then. The Internet is just an informationa nd communication tool. It does not use us, we use it.
Romanes eunt domus? People called Romanes, they go the 'ouse? It says Romans go home. No it doesn't. What's Latin fo
I spend 10-12 hours online or otherwise on a computer each day. 8 hours at work and another 2-4 hours at home.
My first intellectual addiction was TV. Growing up I learned more from PBS than school. In the Navy I got hooked on books. Finding a good book I haden't read started getting tough. I messed around with computers and programming since HS. When I put together my first PC I got hooked on computers. Hardware and then progressively more programming.
When AOL started offering unlimited access I signed up. Bopped around a bunch of flamer tardo infested chat rooms but eventually found the escape hatch (buried deep within the bowels of AOL) to the internet. I dropped AOL after a month. Found a good ISP.
What attracts me to the web is the endless knowledge. I've always been what I call a tangential thinker. I like to work on many things at once. Hopping from one idea/knowledge quest to the next. TV doesn't give you what you want, only what they feel like producing. Books are expensive and tough to find. The net gives me whatever I want whenever I want it.
Sure I have a life outside the computer. I have three wonderful children and an awesome wife. My wife is getting hooked on the net for her own reasons (chatting and buying stuff). I closely monitor my children when they are on the computer. The oldest is only four and unlike my parents I understand that a smart 12y/o has the ability to take responsibility.
I feel more alive now that at any time in the past. I feel connectd. I love this Open Source movement and the sharing of knowledge. So much so that within the month I'm starting a Linux computer business.
Yes I do things out in the physical world. But for me at least, my time on the internet is adding to my life not taking away from it.
The study is flawed mainly because it doesn't see the 'Net for what it is.
That is to say they don't see it as a mere communications tool, and as a
tool it is morally neutral. Like a baseball bat, a hammer or a handgun the
Internet can be used for good or for evil, it can bring you closer to people
or it can shut you off from them. It's all in what you see it as, and how
you use it.
For me the 'net is just another tool in my communications toolbox, depending
who i'm communicating with and what's being communicated I make the choice
between emailing, ICQing, calling or going over in person. Many times a
lengthy ICQ conversation will turn into a phone call when I feel that the
conversation has moved beyond ICQ's ability to keep up. It's also not
uncommon for me to stop a long phone call and tell the person to come on
over, I don't care what anyone else says communication face to face with
another person is a much richer experiance than anything else. So much is
told through body language and eye contact, that you simply miss with any
other medium. Not to forget the ability of physical contact to really bring
two people closer, or to express emotions that words only weakly describe.
On the other hand, when it comes to a simple exchange of information that
isn't deep or incredibly timely email rules, you can't beat it for sheer
efficientcy. Need to reach alot specific people with some important
news, you've got mailing lists, have a message you want the whole world to
hear you've got the WWW at your disposal to get the word out cheaply and
quickly.
Just what the hell is my point you ask? I seem to have forgotten, I'm sure
it's around here somewhere, lemme check.... Ok I've got it, the point that
the Standford people missed is that the Internet needs to be seen as just
one more way for humans to communicate and like any tool it can be overused
and misapplied. If they want to do some work that actually helps people they
should be looking into the causes for depression and what makes individuals
fear social contact, and withdraw. Looking at how the Internet leads to
social isolation is as valid as to looking at how baseball bat technology
leads to lethal beatings, you need to look at the motives behind both to
really do some good.
"Listen: We are here on Earth to fart around. Don't let anybody tell you any different!" - Kurt Vonnegut
Comment removed based on user account deletion
After all, if you really want to feed your addiction, you'd get a job doing this :). j/k - the better I get at application design and architecture, the more time I spend in meetings and coaching other developers (currently about 1/2 my time ... and rising.)
I used to chat a lot while in university; I stopped in the middle of my last year and haven't really gone back. I'd say I spend about 8 hours a day at the keyboard, part of that developing, part of that searching for information on new tech (it's part of my job - tres cool), part just reading mail and writing. Less on weekends, but that's because I have a serious partner and I've discovered photography, another good diversion.
I'd say I'm about average for a higher-level code monkey. Less and less of the new people here (and I assume where I work is typical) tend to be involved in net culture; a lot tend to be graduates of 1-year computer colleges and not especially well-seasoned in the net, how it works, and what makes it good. C'est la vie, although I wonder where all the old-school netheads went.
--
--
There is no premature anti-fascism. -Ernest Hemingway
The only good point I saw was about anonymity on the internet damaging or altering identity as well as expression of emotion. Nothing new though.
If you hadn't already seen it, The Journal of Computer Mediated communication is at http://www.ascusc.org/jcmc/ -- It has some fairly decent articles on developing a sense of self online as well as many others.
I missed Mr. Katz last article, but I would like to add my opinion.
If anything I would say that being on the internet has allowed me to broaden my social circle. And to broaden it to a size that just would not be possible without the internet.
I remember back to July, 1997 when control of Hong Kong shifted from Britian to China. This, I believe, is a historical event in that it was a peaceful change of government. Well, about six months after the handover, I got an ICQ request to a random chat. I went ahead and opened it up. It was a gentleman living in Hong Kong that just wanted to chat. I had a nice chat for about 30 minutes with him, and we talked a bit about Nebraska (where I lived at the time) and Hong Kong. It was one of the cooler things that I can look back on.
If somebody had told me 5 years ago, that I would be talking to a Chinese national about the handover of Hong Kong, I would have thought you were crazy.
Anyway, I am sure that we all have stories like that, and I think that it is the perfect example of how technology brings us to together, not forces us apart.
But, like I said, it is just my opinion.
Does the Internet spell doom for the religious and political status quo? In a word, yes. Such entities have thrived from a top-down suppression of free thought and speech since their institutions thousands of years ago. Suddenly, everybody (with a little effort) can do both, with the flimsiest, if any, consequences for even the most blasphemous/slanderous of comments.
The new world order is here, and no government or church shall lead it. However, get prepared for even rougher times. Those that would wish us ill have not lost yet.
-- Remember: There is no difference between a monopoly and a government. --
Not to beat a dead horse here, but the S/N ratio in this hole is really getting out of hand. The average day on slashdot consists of a couple of interesting science stories, complete with low comment volume and not much said, a few OS stories, jam-packed full of idiot "microsoft sucks" posts, and a Katz piece where all of you limp-dick amateur flamethrowers attempt to sound smart in front of your peers while never EVER bringing up valid points or contributing to a decent conversation.
... ideas that your dead brains are incapable of creating and so are consumed with destroying.
Three quarters of you motherfuckers haven't managed to say anything useful ever, and probably don't have the slightest clue about anything going on around you. Mindless babble. And when you aren't babbling, you're posting some pseudo-intellectual thinly-veiled attack against a) the author b) some commercial company c) somebody else's ideas
Face it. 99% of what happens on slashdot anymore is useless. Anyone who tries to say something besides "linux is cool" is shouted down. Intelligence has been largely replaced by some horrible open source frat party. The only guy who dares to write original material for the site is hissed at constantly by a bunch of low-brow morons who wouldn't know intelligent discussion if it bit them in the ass.
Oh well. Fuck you people. There are way too many of you to start swinging the clue bat.
good. fast. cheap. (pick any two, you can't have all three)
Since there is a difference between physical reality and the net I bet that Grandma would rather get a visit than an e-mail and I be that no amount of dirty messages is going to replace seeing that girlfriend..
Though no one made the claim that the net is a replacement for these things, remember that we are inherently lazy beings. Why visit or call when I can e-mail? Of course the net is no match for that which is far worse for alienating us and which has been at it far longer, television. Why talk to family or neighbors when I can bask in the warm embrace of TV? This is a running joke on the Simpsons and its so bitter and funny 'cause its true.
In light of the hysteria generated by the DoS attacks on major shopping sites it's obvious how serious the gov't and the media take this area. You would of thought that there was some sort of major disaster that killed thousands the way this played out. Last I heard the death toll was zero and no major property damage. So some advertisers on Yahoo didn't get to count click throughs on some banner, big deal. Of course the box that keeps all the smart people (who don't watch TV) inside was threatened. FBI better get on the case.
And watch out that when you do disconnect someday that you don't find that all your civil rights are gone and the suburbs are in "lockdown" while you were surfing your life away. And when you are done with that spending spree and do need something today, maybe you will find that the little brick and mortar establishment that used to have the cool stuff is gone and all you're left with is all Wal-Mart all the time, baby.
Myself, I can hardly wait for the Springer episodes "I didn't pay attention to my daughter till I saw her naked on the internet and now it's too late".
I do think that the internet is great for a lot of things. I admit that I was too lazy to send more than the occasional paper letter and I am much better about contacting through e-mail. Of course those letters were longer and more reflective than the quips I shoot around these days. It's all about time and this "e-pace" just adds to the attention deficit disorder that constitutes the modern experience.
Besides I feel much like Bukowski, I don't hate people but I sure feel better when they are not around. Also, any culture that makes Mariah Carey a mega-star and Titanic the largest grossing movie of all time, deserves whatever it gets. And I hope Katz drowns in Grisham since that chump thinks that higher culture is elitist. There is plenty of sewage at the bottom pal and I hope you drown in it. Good thing for you it's all virtual all the time.
Kill! Kill! Kill! For inner peace and mental health!-The Baader Meinhopf
Hey, you think your house is cool?
Find someone you can share your life with. In this case, 2 is infinitely better than one.
I agree whole heartedly with Jon Katz that the net is a powerful tool for communication. Like Jeff in the story, I email my gf who's in another state everyday over the net. I've also been working with a friend on a software project over the net - we're in different states, so this wouldn't be possible otherwise.
However, there's still something to be said for face to face, human to human contact that the net doesn't replace - people are pulpy, embodied creatures, not just disembodied voices. The danger here really is that the internet makes it easier to go on with life without knowing people in person, and we try less hard as a result.
For heaven's sake Katz, do you really believe a report is either the full truth or not at all? That because statistics and studies one days says 60% of Internet junkies feel lonely one day, there is 60% chance of _you_ feeling lonely? That there exists such thing as an _unbiased_ interrgotation and interpretation method? That there must be only one truth, and it's either 60% or 42?
;-)
The frightening thought here isn't that people are lonely, people have been lonely for ages. What's frightening is what power such reports have to influence people's opinions and belief systems. What's the typical discussion topic at lunch? The latest and greatest news, especially reports that tells us who we are. We are very keen on finding out who we are. Just too bad we let other people decide it for us all the time..
Don't you think that for each person connected to the Internet, there is a unique story? Why do you, or those making reports, feel the urge to brush everyone over the same comb? As if truth is a boolean switch that is either true or false. And at all times the rest of us commoners should worship the current state of this switch..
Let's stop that silly game here and now.
The simple truth is that there are many truths, and many different kinds of truths, more than any of us can imagine. People react to certain things _differently_. Lots of people (students) get lost in the Internet world for years. Their family and friends hardly ever sees them offline anymore. While others spends just a couple of minutes surfing and reading email everyday. Some people learn to be more expressive and grows on using the Internet, while others becomes obsessive and closed.
The point is that the Internet transcends good and bad, just like everything else. It's just an illusion we maintain to judge people and their behaviour. The real responsibility and choice all comes back to us. We attack others when we discover something something "nasty" about ourself. Do you for example believe that you "could never pull the trigger to blow someone's head off"? Or some other nasty action you can think of?
I doubt that it's impossible for anyone of us given optimal circumstance. Now, try to figure out if that circumstance is present for that other person you attack. Don't we all have reasons to do what we do?
Don't let reports and summaries tell you who you are and what is bad for you. Don't push your truth down the throats of other people, let them find out for themselves instead!
Instead of taking criticism and report like this personally, try and find the core of truth in it and utilize it. Now if that frightens you welcome to the club.
Attacking it won't make it go away.
- Steeltoe
(Now I'm doing the same mistake that every other arrogant authorative figure do, pushing my truth down your throats. Please accept my apology for that, I just hoped I made sense, else I've made a fool out of myself for nothing
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
You know, there are many reasons to hate Katz OTHER than his use of Word. I don't like him either, but I make an effort to think of better reasons than what word processing program he uses. Yeah, it does look kinda stupid if he pulls an article because some of the punctuation is messed up, but it's better than having half of the comments on it talk about how Word sucks. (It does suck, but we already know that.)
Although considering the incredible paranoia people show whenever an article is pulled, maybe he still has something to learn about the /. mentality.
when he saw the cat was already out of the bag, he pulled the article in its entirety to prevent people from knowing he made it in Microsoft Word
Somehow, I don't think that was his primary motivation. If you're not willing to forgive him for using MS products and ignore the occasional errors, then you're not really interested in what he's saying.
There's one thing that all the studies in the world can't point out: it's a risk, but it's not reality.
The fact of the matter is, the internet is a lot like television. They're both a means of communication that allow us to view the rest of the world through a window rather than through our own eyes. The only difference is that the internet has grown to be interactive, but all-in-all, both are equivalent to one another.
Here's where the problem arises though...because the internet is an interactive medium, plenty of people claim that it's not harmful to one's social life. But guess what? Humans need physical social activity in order to thrive. I don't know of anyone who wouldn't go crazy if they locked themselves up in a room and only talked to everyone else through the phone. Everyone needs some kind of physical contact every now and then, and to only communicate through the internet is as dangerous as watching TV 16 hours a day. But, there's a problem with this logic, and that's why everyone's misunderstanding what these reports mean.
Back when television was invented, a two step process occured: first, people were amazed by the ability to finally see a picture with what they heard on the radio, and people rushed to get their own TV set. Then the second step occured...studies showed that people were beginning to watch too much television, cutting back on their social interaction. Everyone thought it meant that humans would soon just sit in front of their television set and watch TV all day long. They were wrong.
Why people changed their time schedules in order to watch more TV, and why people are now changing their time schedules to get in more time on the internet, is because both mediums are replacing previous ways to obtain information. Before the radio, people had to wait a day for the newspaper to arrive. Then, before the TV, people had to wait anywhere from 15 minutes to a few hours for the news to arrive. Then, before the internet, people had to wait around five minutes to find the news in between the adds and channel changes. But now, the internet allows us to view the news in less than a minute. It's "there at our fingertips." Each medium replaced the last because each medium gave us the chance to get more done in less time. And since each medium saved time, naturally, humans spent more time on it to get more things done at once.
What the studies on television proved is fairly the same amount of material that this study proves: too much viewing can lead to a decrease in social interaction. What they didn't say, though, is that just because someone was a "TV Junkie" or "Internet Junkie" didn't mean that they're not socially involved...it only proved that the oportunity was there for it to occur. Sure, if someone spends over 8 hours a day watching television, they might develop a social problem. If someone spends over 8 hours a day on the internet, they might develop a social problem as well. It all depends on how deeply involved the person gets.
Why do some people always think that spending a lot of time on the Net is necessarily a bad thing, or an addiction, or however you label it? I mean, yes, there *is* such a thing as Net addiction, which is uncontrollable and not mentally healthy. But that does NOT mean that using the Net for more than X number of hours per day is Bad, and getting on less than X number of hours per day is Good.
Quite to the contrary, I find that recently the Net has become one big factor in keeping me going... I'm an extreme introvert IRL, and do not in general meet new people unless circumstances are such that I'm with them for a period of time. But on the Net, I'm much more open to talk to new people and learn new ideas. Recently, I found that by talking to people on IRC, contrary to the popular belief that "people you meet online aren't real people [sic]", I actually became more sociable and less introverted. I also found that I rediscovered my interests in many things like music, etc., just by talking to people with similar interests on the Net. IRL I would have a very hard time finding someone who could relate to me in that way.
Anyway, my whole point is, there is no single measure of goodness/badness or healthiness/unhealthiness (whatever terms you wish to use) on the Net. I mean, I could've ended up with the wrong company of people on IRC and become a compulsive maniac or something. It's all a matter of how you use the Net. The Net is but a tool -- albeit a very powerful and versatile tool -- and if you use it right, even the stereotypically "bad" or "anti-social" things online may turn out quite the opposite way. Do not judge a book by its cover. Much less by rumor.
mikre he sophia he tou Mikrosophou.
My question is, do you lose anything from your internet habit? Maybe if you were looking for a job, instead of surfing the net, you would have a job? I don't know anything about your life, of course, perhaps you have enough income from other sources and don't need to work. Don't take this as a personal judgement. What I'm saying is that *if* somebody _needs_ a job, and spends 17 hours a day, 7 days a week reloading slashdot instead of looking for a job, then that person does have a serious "internet addiction" problem.
Moderators, take note:
1)Read the moderation guidelines before moderating anything
Lots of people have criticized the study on the social effects of Net use without looking at the study itself. That's understandable, given the overwhelming amount of press coverage it's gotten. But since a few people have asked for more substantial analysis, here are a few of my thoughts. Some of the most important flaws in the study.
(The study can be found here:a ry16/internetsurvey-216.html.)
ht tp://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/report/news/febru
(1) Know the researchers. Norman Nie, the study's lead author, is a Stanford political science professor who has a vested interest in proving that people are uninterested in one another: he has substantially based his career on showing how Americans are detached from civil society. He has done several studies on voter participation - with the understanding that low voter turnout is a bad thing (instead of a sign of voter contentedness). Look at the list of his publications for yourself - it is rife with his belief that Americans are forgetting what "citizenship" is all about.
Nie's work is reminiscent of the work of Robert Putnam, who argued that American society was in steep decline because more people are - get this - bowling alone. These goofy, academic simpering simpletons believe that there is always a cloud to every silver lining, and if they took a few moments to bring their heads out of the oxygen-deprived ivory tower, they would see how wrong they are - and they would be laughed to death.
(2) The question is suspect. From the outset, the study intends to frame the question inappropriately, asking whether we will "live in a better informed and connected, more engaged and participatory society" (the sort of society Nie would prefer, based on his previous leanings), or will live in a society "of lonely ex-couch potatoes glued to computer screens, whose human contacts are largely impersonal and whose political beliefs are easily manipulated."
Whoa! Why is that framed in black or white, one or zero, with nothing between? Are citizenship and society simple on-or-off characteristics, which you've either got or you haven't? From the very first page, the study betrays its authors' intent: to show that anything less than ideal citizenship is dangerous.
(3) Is a quantitative study the best way to answer these questions? The study is a product of Stanford's "Institute for the Quantitative Study of Society." The study reflects their juvenile belief that human society, in all its complexity, can be summed up in numbers: "For answers to these questions, we must move from ideological claims to empirical evidence."
Again, false! Empirical evidence - putting numbers on human social behavior - does not answer the underlying questions at all. As the discussions on Slashdot have shown, the important questions here are ideological. It is not enough to say that people have gone from spending X hours with friends to spending Y hours with friends. Knowing the simple numbers tells you bubkus - you still need to know whether and why spending time with your friends is good, and which aspects are being preserved as technology changes our society.
(4) Extreme conclusions are reached with minimal data. The study says that the people who have used the Internet the longest report that they spend more time online. The authors conclude that the data therefore, "strongly suggest a model of social change with not only a growing number of Internet users, but with web users doing more and more things on the internet in the future."
O, the surprise! People who have done something for a while may want to do more of it? That seems pretty natural - but where is the evidence for "a model of social change"? The only way to squeeze significant "social change" out of these data is by extrapolating - and that is dangerous with data so sparse, and especially with data of a developing scenario. My favorite example of a misguided extrapolation is this: At the time of Elvis's death, there were under 300 Elvis impersonators. By 1996, there were over 7,000. By extrapolating that rate of increase, we can know that one out of every four humans on the planet will be Elvis impersonators by 2020.
(5) So What? The study's conclusions are hardly alarming.
Look at the chart that purports to show that "Social Isolation Increases" as Net use increases.
The first flaw in this chart is that "social isolation" supposedly is what happens when you don't talk on the phone, or talk to your family, or attend events outside the home. If, however, you go shopping regularly, e-mail your family, and go to school or work every day, you are considered "socially isolated." Huh?
The second obvious flaw is in the dotted lines, which don't actually represent anything. The only real data are the dark, plotted points; lines representing trends really shouldn't be drawn with so little data. It's just a sloppy representation of the data.
Finally, so what? Less than one out of six people who use the Internet more than ten hours a week (the highest category on the chart) said they spend less time with their family or their friends, or spend less time at events outside of the house. Those are hardly numbers to cry about? Come on, now! I'd be concerned if, say, 60 percent of the people who use the Net that often report that they occasionally kill their neighbors' pets, but staying off the phone is hardly an apocalyptic signal.
(6) Human behavior doesn't fit into neat little check boxes. The professors conclude vehemently (they wrote it in bold and italics) that, "Clearly the media are competing... You can't surf the web and watch TV at the same time."
What silliness. As James Gleick showed in his brilliant Faster: The Acceleration of Just About Everything, we are animals especially able to multi-task. We absorb media from wherever we can, and can successfully navigate between television, radio and the Web simultaneously - because we can mentally tune between them during commercials, or during those painful minutes as we wait for the X-Men trailer to download. Claiming that we cannot concurrently absorb input from multiple media is plain silly! We adapt easily - we can watch television, carry on phone conversations and flip through Playboy all at once - so why pretend we are handicapped when it comes to newer media?
(7) The study relies on people's perceptions, not facts. A typical flaw in quantitative studies is that they purport to show facts about behavior - while they only really show facts through the filter of people's perceptions.
So does the study actually show that people spend the same amount of time in traffic, or more time at work? No, the study's authors didn't follow people around to measure time spent at home and time spent in the office - they asked people to report on themselves. Everybody knows how difficult self-assessment is; how accurate can these results be?
What's more, we should be suspicious about this "Internet is making us work more" claim. Is it true that time spent "at work" is the same as time spent working? Hasn't everybody who has access to the Web at work used some of that time (a lot of time, for some of us) fooling around online? We don't need a study to prove it - just look at all the companies that are spying on employees' computer use and even firing them because of "inappropriate" Net visits while on the job.
(8) Surveys can give you any answer you want. It is well known in political circles that polls can be tweaked to elicit any desired answers from respondents. In particular, the placing of key questions in a long list can affect the responses.
Here's a silly example of what I mean. Try it on a friend or coworker (if you still interact with friends or coworkers, which might surprise these academics). Ask the following questions. What color is grass? What color is money? What color do people supposedly turn when they are envious? What color is a cucumber? What color is at the top of a streetlight?
If the questions follow in rapid succesion, the answerer will be so accustomed to the pattern - all the answers would seem to be green - that they would probably mindlessly answer "green," for the last question, although the correct answer to the last question is red.
That is an oversimplified way of representing a serious problem with quantitative research that depends on answering questions. When you look at the questions (here) asked in the study, you get a similar feeling - the questions could be tweaked to get alternative results. In particular, Question 19, the question which has generated all the grand debate here on Slashdot and elsewhere, is a question that, perhaps accidentally, makes respondents feel self-pity and guilt. It asks respondents to rate whether using the Internet has affected each of these behaviors:
Working at the office
Working at home
Shopping in stores
Commuting in traffic
Reading newspapers
Watching television
Spending time with your family
Spending time with your friends
Watching television
Attending events
Imagine if the questions were framed in the way that the authors of this study are framing the results now. Imagine if the question asked: "Do you feel that using the Internet has isolated you socially?" or "Do you feel lonely because of the Internet?" or "Do you contribute less well to society because of the Internet?" or "Do you feel like your life is missing something, and you are now a pawn of corporations that pour their crass commercialization into your cranium over the Net without the buffering effects of friends and family?"
Conclusion: If you out to prove something statistically, you'll succeed. This study, which got hundreds of hours and thousands of column-inches of press coverage, is not serious or significant: it is an attempt by supposedly impartial professors to prove an ideological point while ostentatiously disdaining ideology.
I would be delighted to hear others' further criticism of the study itself - its aims and methodolgy.
Yours,
A. Keiper
The Center for the Study of Technology and Society
Actually, KaCee, the study you describe sounds pretty good. Unfortunately, the study that these Stanford professors conducted was hardly that interesting or rigorous. I dissect it below.
A. Keiper
The Center for the Study of Technology and Society
Sure, the original study which began this debate was seriously flawed. There is still, however, a lesson we can learn from the disussion which followed. There is a point where you get too much of a good thing, and spending 17 hours a day sitting in front of the computer would qualify.
Like I said in the last forum, the internet is a great medium for gathering information and connecting people, but there is a point where it simply becomes an excuse for naturally introverted people to become shut-ins. You might think that you're living the good life because you're hanging off the greatest collection of raw data ever concieved, but you're really not if that's all you do.
Moderation, as always, is the key -- you can always overdo things. Too much food, too much exercise, too much sex, too much of anything isn't good. It's not healthy to never get outside or get any physical activity. It's not healthy to never interact face to face with other people. You're behaving like one of those people whose life is completely dominated by their significant other -- you're making sacrifices you can't imagine in trade for fairly minimal benefits, but you've become so encompassed by the lifestyle that you can't imagine any other way to live.
There's nothing wrong with net use -- it beats sitting around watching TV any day. But, people, please remember the value of variety. Overspecialize and you'll always encounter problems.
On a personal level, I would again urge you to stop and look up from the screen for a change. Going out and having a few beers with friends isn't the best thing for your body, but it's not going to kill you and could prove extremely valuable in other respects. Going out on the occassional date might not seem like a productive use of time, but there is a reason it's so popular (and I don't just mean sex, but that is a part).
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Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Er, what?
/. post where all the info anyone has is a name or handle that doesn't even need to be real, or in fact attached at all if they choose to post AC or in a study where they need to know your name, sex, age, television viewing habits, how much correspondance you have with your family, and so on?
When did Jon even mention anything about "losers" in his article? I'll admit that Jon's critique of the study isn't very scientific, but neither is the study itself from what I've read (which admitedly, isn't much). When isolation is defined as watching _less_ TV and more time online (whether it's IRCing, usenet or surfing) then there's definately something wrong, for obvious reasons.
As for the anonymity factor: Are people more likely to fudge the truth when their names are attached to something? Yes. But where do you think is more anonymous, in an email or
--
Reject
--
Reject
reject@metaphorcity dot com
Jon has been expounding this theme since at least his Hotwired days. The fear of the clueless leading them to attack this thing that seems about to take away a little of their power. But he seems to have missed a couple of points here. The first and most obvious is that the attacks have shifted over to the realm of the absurd. The very funny parodies of the Stanford "Study" should have been a giveaway. Mail is good, email is bad? Newspapers are good, news online is bad? This segment of the attack force has really lost whatever grip on reality it ever had.
But I would think that any discussion of attacks on the wired culture should contain at least a mention of the attacks that are actually threatening us. Direct frontal assaults are bound to fail (on the net as in most cases), but the side forays may be our undoing. UCITA, the Digital Millenium Copyright Act and stupid software patents are just as absurd as the Stanford Study, but are much more dangerous. In fact the Stanford Study is itself dangerous in that it gives the clueless one more weapon to use in their efforts to destroy this thing we hold so precious.
Always and inevitably everyone underestimates the number of stupid individuals in circulation
Information is not Knowledge
I couldn't agree more with the fact that "culture" is an elitist term, and we're out for a divergence or at the very least a huge paradigm shift. In my decade on the Internet (I was around pre-web), I've developed several strong friendships and close personal ties. I was even involved in a year-and-a-half long net romance with someone from the opposite corner of North Dakota. In many ways, it is the relationship by which I measure all others, as she and I were deeply intimate on a mental level. (Of course, pleasures of the flesh did come later.)
Anyway, I think we're heading for a culture shift. For far too long, good culture has been defined in a top-down-matter: the upper crust of society says it is good, so it is good. True, we do see bottom up movements, but quite often their import is denied or warned against by the "cultural elite". With the rise of the web, culture has already become far more democratic than 10 years ago. The web is probably not the stimulus for change, but it is one hell of a catalyst.
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Am I the only one who thinks Microsoft is a misnomer? Perhaps Macrosoft would be a better fit?
I think a lot of this kind of thought comes from people who have never experienced any meaningful dialog on the net. ie they just do not get it.
I know several smart people who just don't get online chat for example. They have no interest and can not figure out why any one else does.
When they think about someone who spends 30+ hours a week of their freetime on a MUD, it must seem to them to be a lonely and sad experience. While to the mudder he/she/it may be having the best social interaction they have ever had.
I personaly think that the TV is the greatest problem technology in this area. As it gives the illusion of social interaction with out being interactive. (and no I do not count the pay per view button) :)
Noel
RootPrompt.org -- Nothing but Unix
kayaking
I'm sick and tired of people bashing Katz for the little things like how long his columns are or the fact that perhaps on a certain time he use Word to write his column. I personnally like to see something with a bit more substance in slashdot instead of pure discussion and a link to another page. John Katz's column brings more to /. than anyother article as it gives you MORE to discuss. you condemn him for using Word. Does a person have access to a linux box all the time? In my experience no and I feel that Katz should have the opertunity to explain himself before judging him.
I really liked the part about people using studies like these because they feel out of control. I look around and see people who are scared of computers and the 'net all the time. Folks seem to be grasping hard at the illusion of control these days. I was reminded recently of this theme in my favorite book, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (you can read it online here .) Every time I read this book I get something new. Now, I get things about programming and computers. Anyway, here's a good quote:
That attitude is not hard to come to. You go through a heavy industrial area of a large city and there it all is, the technology. In front of it are high barbed-wire fences, locked gates, signs saying NO TRESPASSING, and beyond, through sooty air, you see ugly strange shapes of metal and brick whose purpose is unknown, and whose masters you will never see. What it's for you don't know, and why it's there, there's no one to tell, and so all you can feel is alienated, estranged, as though you didn't belong there. Who owns and understands this doesn't want you around. All this technology has somehow made you a stranger in your own land. Its very shape and appearance and mysteriousness say, ``Get out.'' You know there's an explanation for all this somewhere and what it's doing undoubtedly serves mankind in some indirect way but that isn't what you see. What you see is the NO TRESPASSING, KEEP OUT signs and not anything serving people but little people, like ants, serving these strange, incomprehensible shapes. And you think, even if I were a part of this, even if I were not a stranger, I would be just another ant serving the shapes. So the final feeling is hostile, and I think that's ultimately what's involved with this otherwise unexplainable attitude of John and Sylvia. Anything to do with valves and shafts and wrenches is a part of that dehumanized world, and they would rather not think about it. They don't want to get into it.
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DO NOT DISTURB THE SE
I agree with this study in it's premise... that the internet is physically isolating people, causing them to exchange their ideas in a virtual forum as opposed to a physical one (think a slashdot thread as opposed to a town meeting). What I don't agree with is that this is, or will ever be, intellectually ,emotionally, or socially damaging to us as a species. The basic premise behind the Internet is the exchange of ideas and information. Throughout history, mankind has striven to reach the goal of ultimate communication with each other. the Internet is the culmination of those efforts as it exists today (yesterday it was the telephone, before that the newspaper, etc).
Of course, old-world pundits will be frightened of this sociological change, as they always are whenever a paradigm shift in communications comes along. I however, believe that this is a precursor of things to come. Perhaps eventually, ultimate communication will be reached... through an evolution of human consciousness beyond our physical bodies. Weathe ror not this will be into a non-corporeal form of some sort, or will exist as brains linked into a global "cyberspace", who knows. but eventually, it will happen. And no amount of scared old-worled idealists will be able to stop it.
Kent Brockman: Mr. Simpson, how do you respond to the charges that petty vandalism such as graffiti is down eighty percent, while heavy sack-beatings are up a shocking nine hundred percent?
Homer: "Aw, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. Forty percent of all people know that."
Now that I will be publicly flogged for that statement. I agree with him. While many of us are spending more time online it is not a case of abandoning all of our friends merely a new way to continue to communicate with them. Without programs like IRC,first, then more mainstream AIM and ICQ I would not stay in touch with most of my friends from college. I would not be able to afford to talk to most of them every day. While at work I can get email and post on slashdot rather than staring blankly while my brain reboots. I consider things like this a boom for society. Granted it is a different society but oh well, change can be good. Slowly media types will start to adopt this online phenom as a good thing. Once more and more of them are online. Right now they cater to their execs who are older and less connected and many do not ever use a computer I fear. I know at my last job we had execs that could barely use outlook. It was so funny the guy running one of the top 10 life insurance companies in the world, could not figure out how to open outlook and send email, took me about 2 hours to teach him outlook. People like that see net life as a abomination, until we convert them or they stop being in power we will continue to see these studies.
oh well
I am 31337 or something.
"80% of all purchasing decisions are made on the basis of color."
--Brand Packaging magazine
Serious--I actually saw that stat. Obviously a...bit shortsighted, but what's really scary is that somehow there was a study designed to prove that.
When all you've got is a vested interest in diagnosing physical isolation as personal isolation...
You design your study to get your nail.
Yours Truly,
Dan Kaminsky
DoxPara Research
http://www.doxpara.com
There are bags of resources on everything you want on the net. In one bag I'm your average everyday image of the geek (arrived at 8am, its 7:30 and I'm still at work), I'm reading the Cathedral and the bazaar, I update my PC on my own, it dual boots only for games, I bore everyone senseless with how great my job is and why every one should get into computing. I talk for hours at dinner with friends about the merits of XML/XSL and why Java should have multiple inheritance. Basically I put my girlfriend to sleep.
I spend an age on the internet, I check my email every 30 mins and there is normally something in it, I post to Slashdot and log on at the weekends.
So I must be a social reject. Well I'd like to speak up on behalf of all of those coders, hackers and internet junkies who also live to snowboard, windsurf, jump off cliffs and generally blow our above average salries on the sort of life we dreamed of as a kid. I'm not the sort of hacker who has a problem raising his voice, who can't mingle and finds it difficult to mix at a party. I'm the out-going sort who is interested in everything, be it Shakespeare (last book I read was Henry V PartII), Max Ernst, or my girlfriend being a lingerie designer.
Most of these studies are cut and dried, people who use the internet lack social skills, they don't mix with people. And yet those who work in the world of Open Source email people all over planet earth. I'm sitting in the UK and today I helped out someone in a
In the end Ernest Rutherford was right...
All research in the field of human sciences can be summarised as some do, some don't
The purpose of life is to go on holiday.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
First of all, the concept of "loser" is so highly subjective as to be irrelevant to the discussion. Katz' article doesn't use the word, so critiquing it on that basis is spurious at best.
The point is, a bunch of researchers with a pre-defined notion of acceptable societal behaviour went out, selected a group of people without 'net access, gave them access, and then measured how they spent less time on other things. Given the finite nature of the day, spending any time online would necessitate spending less elsewhere, yet they had the gall to turn around and declare the Internet as a hindrance to social interaction, again based on their own view of what interaction ought to be.
Katz is saying here that he has seen posts and email that tells a different story, one that perhaps the researchers should have taken into account. Does the 'net isolate some people in a negative way? Probably. Are all regular 'net users anti-social? No way!
This was a badly designed study with poorly interpreted data, which was then, of course, presented even worse in the mass media that loves to feed paranoia.
Considering how many ACs post here regularly, and how many did stand up and say that maybe their online time isn't so great for their lives in response to this story, your observation here is incorrect. One guy even did post about how much better his family life was once he cut out a chunk of his 'net time. The point is, much as that may be true for some, evidence here (both named and anonymous) seems to indicate that social interaction is made better for others because of the Internet, and research groups making alarmist declarations of the degradation of society are more of a problem than any electronic medium.
Kimberly "'net goddess" Chapman
I have major depression, and just a few years ago it would have been severe enough to see me hospitalized. At its worst, my depression deprives me of my ability to interract with people in real-time, face-to-face. My mind slows to molasses as I try to figure out what I just heard, what it means, and how I should react to it. That leads to a self-consciousness that is debilitating enough in its own right.
But on the Net, "Nobody Knows You're Depressed". Why? Simply because the pace of interraction is under my control. I can even lurk for a while before jumping in, giving me time to "warm up" a bit. I have the luxury of time on my side, allowing me to read a post as many times as needed for it to sink into my head, and allowing me to take as long as I wish to reply.
Far from isolating me from society and social interraction, the Net is all too often the ONLY social interraction I am capable of!
More detail: I don't have to hassle with sales people and cashiers when I can shop online. In the past there have been times when I ate stale bread merely because I couldn't cope with going to the store. PeaPod fixed that.
Let me reiterate: Without the Net, I doubt I'd be able to take care of myself. I would be in some institution, consuming large quantities of insurance and public money, not to mention countless drugs. But, surprisingly, I'm not! I'm able to earn my living and survive, and I'm able to greet the world on my own terms.
There are those who would degrade my state of existence, or even pity me. Don't! I earn nearly six figures, and I have my friends, family and entertainments, despite my depression.
All due, in large part, to the Net.
The Net acts as a "buffer" between me and the "real" world. A world where the only meaningful alternative is hospitalization. This same buffer allows me to take a slow and gradual approach with therapy and counselling, rather than the hasty treatment and rush to discharge seen in most hospitals. Plus, in a hospital I would not be able to continue to make a living!
The Net represents a technology that is fundamentally connective, not isolative. For me, the Net is a "social prosthesis", much as a hearing aid is to a deaf person. It makes interfacing with the world easier, better, and even possible.
Is the "world" I'm connecting with something other than the "real world"?
For the present, it is the best world I am able to live in.
The worst thing about it? You can't get a hug on the Net.
- Bob
San Diego, CA
I haven't looked at the study in detail, but your dismissal of it is particularly weak. Your evidence? "Well, a bunch of guys emailed me and posted to Slashdot to say that they're not losers." For one, do you really expect people to post en masse saying, "Yeah, I guess I am a loser."?
Your rebuttal is easily invalid for two simple reasons alone:
Gotta give you an "F" on this one, Jon...
Cheers,
ZicoKnows@hotmail.com
There's two sides to this. One is that some people use the "square-headed girlfriend" for escape. They don't WANT to interact f2f. When they do, it's about the world in the box. This is, of course, bad, and generally to be avoided.
The flip side is those of us who use the box to augment, add to, facilitate, and generally improve the relationships we already have, or would not have had but for the wonders of modern technology. I know for myself that were it not for the Net I would still be single in Atlanta and miserable rather than married, in Seattle, and reasonably happy and improving. So there.
But there is a third possibility (sorry, Arlo) a third possibility that no one has considered yet.
It's quite obvious to the casual Slashdot reader (which is different from the casual observer) that Stanford ignored the reality of the situation. Nobody has yet bothered to ask why.
I think I know. Flame me if you think I'm out in left field, but here goes:
I think They are scared. "They" are the pointy haired bosses, the university deans, the brokers, everyone who's a middleman and raking in the cash. They see the potential for their power to slip away, for mere mortals to talk directly to God without purchasing an indulgence from the local priesthood. People like Bob Young and Jeff Bezos and a couple gents named Larry and you and me have, not overtly, but just as loudly, nailed our 95 Theses to the doors of Redmond and 1600 Pennsylvania.... and the fertilizer is beginning to hit the rotating ventilation device. But it's no longer politic to simply send in the Knights Templar and squash the revolution. First you have to demonize it in the press. Alternatively you can attempt (Microsoft, Algore, AOL) to co-opt it for yourself.
[skip a bit, brother]
Ultimately it's about control. The Big Bwanas see us scurrying around down here plotting world domination and they don't like that idea because it means they'll have to drive a Neon instead of a Nine-Four-Four. So they get all het up about regulating the net and filtering it and keeping pr0n away from short people and bomb making info out of the hands of those Bearded Fellows (hey, I resemble that remark...) and ultimately grinding it down and mixing it with water and making it into the same kind of Soylent Green we've been sucking off the OTHER Glass Teat since our mothers were in grade school.
Bleah! Pfui! yak! barf. Get that stuff away from me, it rots your brain.
So what are we supposed to do about it anyway?
Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead. Keep banging away at your Open Source projects, keep hacking on wireless internet, keep sending those checks to EFF and friends, and above all, don't let the bastards get you down. Don't even let them slow you down. If it's obvious to you that they aren't interested in listening, put it in granny low, sound the horn, and floor it. They were warned.
The 21st century is coming thru, boys and girls, and we are in the driver's seat. Lead, follow, or get out of the way.
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My name.... is NEO!
Oddly enough, despite the often held belief that computers and internet are for the young, it's the elderly who are really getting their money's worth. The internet allows those people unable to get around easily to meet and talk to people of similar ages and with similar experiences. When you reach an age where most of your friends have passed on it's nice to have a place where you can make new friends.
Yes. I no longer meet my neighbors. Thanks to the internet I am able to keep in touch with friends who actually know who Voltaire is. I can discuss my latest problems with my child with my friends two time zones away, who also have a child of the same age. I can communicate with people of a similar mind and IQ regardless of their age, race, religion, profession, or location. I can have my opinions challenged and even rated on Slashdot.
I met my wife on a WWIV BBS. If it hadn't been for the interaction we obviously didn't have over the modem lines I would have never married her...
I live in Nebraska. My son (age 7 months) has grandparents in Washington and Seattle. We have friends and family all over the U.S. (plus a few Aussies). I can put his latest photos on his web page and everyone can see him without me trying to send photos all over heck and creation.
I have come to a conclusion. The study at Standford was done by human beings, and published on the interent. As I have not had physical contact with these human beings, I cannot possibly be considered to have interacted with them. Therefore I cannot have been influenced by them. Therefore I cannot consider myself to have been informed by their research. Therefore their study is meaningless to me and to all others who have seen it.
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No Zen is good zen