Confirmed: U.S. Spies On European Corporations

FrankW writes "Former United States Central Intelligence Agency director James Woolsey confirmed in Washington this week that the U.S. steals economic secrets 'with espionage, with communications [intelligence], with reconnaissance satellites,' and that there was now 'some increased emphasis' on economic intelligence. He claimed that economic spying was justified because European companies had a 'national culture' of bribery and were the 'principle offenders from the point of view of paying bribes in major international contracts in the world.'" And he says the U.S. government doesn't deliver corporate secrets to U.S. companies - unless it would benefit them. How reassuring. The source is Heise Online (the publishers of c't). The full article is available in English. See also the recent European report Interception Capabilities 2000 (summary), which the former director said was "intellectually honest."

Comments

Re:News for you Mike

[Anonymous Coward]

Incorrect!

I am Canadian. I worked with the NSA since the early 70's. Since I'm still under restrictions due to secrecy (hence the AC) I'm gonna tell you a few things. I'm also going to spel sum things wrong, in an attempt to get past the cens#rs.

No secrets, however, so get that out of your mind. Mostly because I don't think anyone here could handle them, but also because even here, there is no such thing as secrecy. Call me paranoid? I believe I have the right, and the informed opinion to be.

Canadian business gets ZIP benefit from any intellece gathered in Canada. The int gathered here is mostly on third parties, and that benefits CS I S. Some is on businesses, but only on Canadian based and overseas offices located within it's borders. The juicy stuff goes right back to the states.

Every time I see a story on this type of subject I laugh. If only you knew what is really out there, you'd give up your computers and go and live in a cave. That way, you'd have the privacy you wanted.

And that would be the only way.

Bribery is rampant throughout the world

[Anonymous Coward]

A chinese friend of mine has and interestinglife - her granparents were killed by the communists because they were rich, her family became poor, now they're very well off thanks to the American-style economy.

But still they have to deal with bribery on a day to day basis. Fortunately her family knows high-ranking Chinese officials so they have their way most of the time. BUT, my point is bribery is embedded in Chinese culture.

Same thing in India(some regions are especially well known for smooth-talking bribery). My Indian friends laugh at the bribery which is a part of their national heritage. They've been doing it for _years_. Most Indians who want to secure their assets have bodyguards, and all are very familiar with bribery. Similar thing in many African nations(not all). Sure the U.S. is not immune - witness campaign financing. But we're not half as bad as China and India, trust you me.

In having lived in Europe I don't see that bribery is a major problem there, certainly _nothing_ like the bribery which goes on in the rest of the world. I believe the CIA will have its hands full as U.S. business expands into China and India.

Re:Bribery is rampant throughout the world

[DamnYankee]

Bribery may be rampant throughout the world. But the nations where it is endemic are far less successful than those where it is rare.

I have lived in Stockholm the last five years in a culture where bribery is rare and treated as a crime (surf here). Despite the horrible tax rates and small population here, this society is one of the richest on earth.

Previous to this I lived in Honduras, which is listed as the sixth most corrupt nations in the world. Bribes in Honduras suck the country dry of any usable capital and hamstring the entire economy. The trickle down effect of bribes, feeding bribes, feeding bribes waters down any real value without producing anything (any good or service)!

I think the countries Woolsey is referring to most are Germany and France. While living in Central America, these guys played very fast and loose with all of the countries' natural resources there via a variety of NGO's and official aid agencies. Bribery was their modus operandi and I knew personally several Honduran officials on their 'payroll'. I also met a couple scientists who had first hand knowledge of German bribery funding Teak deforestation via an NGO in Indonesia.

For what it's worth, in my experience the countries that participate in this game always lose in the long run - and that includes both the bribers and bribees. Evesdropping may provide some short-term benefits in specific circumstances for more honest countries, but in the long run honesty pays off in direct, tangible benefits such as a vibrant economy and real wealth creation.

Re:How Interesting . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

>There will always be somebody trying to screw us.
>We should always do whatever we can to screw
>others before they screw us.

Street robber morals. Worse even than the military "preventive retaliation" lies in that you attack persons without even pretending that it might be they who could theoretically be doing the same to you, but anybody else.

Re:is this really a suprise?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's illegal for U.S. companies to commit bribery in the U.S. or abroad. European governments have not made it illegal for European companies to bribe officials in other countries. This of course puts U.S. companies at a disadvantage in some parts of the world.

Hmm. I thought the USA was on a war against drugs... some really powerfull stuff must still be coming through... I can;t magine any other way someone could have such flawed thoughts about this.
TYhe USA has fuly legalized bribing the entire poltical system. (they call this donations for campeigns... if any european political party would ever accept money in that way they are exit... look at what is happening in Germany right now)
Also, US companies are very good at holding dolars in someones face to make them decide for them... I have seen so repeatedly. If you believe they wouldn't do that because the law says they can't... here is a clue: people sometimes ignore the law.

USA only country bribery is against the law

[Anonymous Coward]

A quick point, the u.s.a. is the ONLY country were bribery to gain an international contract is against the law. In all other countries it's not against the law. Thus american companies are at a great disadvantage when bidding on international contracts. Until the EU gets their act together to make bribery illegal I don't see why the USA should stop spying to learn 'the bribe of the week'. The French have no moral guilt in this regard. It's part of their business culture. The US government should help American companies to avoid them losing contracts to others due to bribes.

Re:USA only country bribery is against the law

[myshka]

Bribing might be illegal, but it's naive to think that American corporations would operate by an ethics code different from their European counterparts. In business, whatever gets you the profits analysts expect gets done, as demonstrated by the wholesale bribery of local officials by American oil companies operating in post-Soviet Central Asia and elsewhere.

Don't expect a government that actively spies on behalf of corporate interests (thus transfering public money into the private sector) to be overly mindful of a little corruption here and there. After all, it's all about "unprecedented growth" and "American jobs", isn't it.

Re:How Interesting . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

Reminds me of George Carlin's comment on Bill Clinton: "He's full of shit but, at least he's honest about being full of shit." (paraphrased).

No. Bill Clinton would first say, "No that's not shit." Then, when called on that, he'd say "No, it depends on what the word 'full' means." Then, when finally called, he'd just blame all the shit in the world on the Republicans.

Why people don't like americans

[Anonymous Coward]

If countries were people and we all went to school, America would be that stupid fat kid that nobody liked, who went around robing your homework and stealing your lunch money. Most of your brains come from people leaving their native countries to go and live in America. Why is it that so many 2nd, 3rd (and so on) generation americans are so inward looking and arrogant.

Re:Why people don't like americans

[Glytch]

Actually, I think "Step by Step" is more deserving of retribution.

Of course, my country, Canada, is no less guilty. Although I have no governmental or representative authority, I hereby apologize to the world for Anne Murray, Rex Murphy, Preston Manning, and Lucien Bouchard.

Actually, Rex Murphy reminds me a lot of Jon Katz. Oh, god, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense--- Nah. Jon Katz is smarter. CBC listeners will understand this...

Re:Why people don't like americans

[ariux]

I'm going to have to finally ask for details about the bad and unfair things the U.S. does to other countries. I hear a lot of discontented noises from citizens of other countries, and until now I've given them the benefit of the doubt, but the bad blood seems to be solidifying a bit, and I'd like to know what my country stands accused of.

I want to emphasize that this isn't just a cute way of denigrating the complaints; I'm genuinely asking for clarification. Questions below are meant literally, not ironically.

If countries were people and we all went to school, America would be that stupid fat kid that nobody liked, who went around robing your homework and stealing your lunch money.

This seems to imply the U.S. is a thief and a bully. What has it stolen? What threats does it use?

Most of your brains come from people leaving their native countries to go and live in America.

I'm not sure I agree with the "most" part - many of the U.S.'s best and brightest are nth-generation. I won't, however, deny that we're a substantial "brain drain" on many other countries. How does this make the U.S. a bad place, though?

Why is it that so many 2nd, 3rd (and so on) generation americans are so inward looking and arrogant.

Life is good here in many ways (though not as good as you'd believe from movies). Unfortunately, I think this has created complacency among those who've never known anything else.

The U.S. has no monopoly on this effect, though; late 19th-century British and German nationalism, for example, appear to me to have had very similar causes and characteristics.

---------

To keep this post on topic (and I should probably address the spying anyway): seems to me there're three points in question. (1) US-UK spies on other countries' communications. (2) Uses the info for economic gain. (3) They oughtn't.

I don't think anyone would dispute (1). (2) seems likely today, though we don't have most of the details. It seems to me that (3), however, depends on whether other nations do the same. Do they? Can you substantiate your answer?

Re:Why people don't like americans

[Lozzer]

I'd like to know what my country stands accused of.

Can you atone for Married with Children?

Loz

Re:I work for a foriegn company . .

[rodgerd]

And during WWII, Henry Ford sold the Nazis the vehicales they used to assist in killing thousands of US soldiers - drafted citizens. Corporations are, more often than not, run in such a fashion that they will happily endager or kill people on a grand scale for a few bucks, all the while chanting the mantra of maximising shareholder returns. It's hardly related to the nationality of the corporation.

For that matter, US alphabet soup agencies are hardly squeeky clean. Ever hear of arms for hostages f'rinstance?

A little history lesson

[rodgerd]

Many moons ago (at the time First World War), the ancestor of the FBI arose in the US. It was intended, in the panic of war and the subsequent Russian Revolution and rise of Communism in Eastern Europe, to stamp out any chance of the emergence of Communist and Socialist groups in the US, with the main risk allegedly being foreigners importing their ideas. We'll gloss over the question of whether the US government has any business supervising the political beliefs of its own citizens for a moment.

The Bureau of Investigation of the Justice department did such a fine job of stamping out the danger of undersirable political thought and enforcing the recently minted Mann act (aimed at the White Slave trade) that it had a problem byu the 1920's - too little to do within the brief it was formed under. So it began expanding, using organised crime and interstate commerce to justify a widening scope into what would eventually become the FBI - which subsequently gained notoriety for spying on US citizens, carrying out dubious covert operations in Latin America, opposing the Civil Rights movement (hey, once you're sanctioned to decide what it is acceptable for US citizens to believe in, whi stop at Communism?).

Spy agencies are like any other hierarchical organisation, private or public. They attract people who wish to exercise power within the context of the organisation, and who wish the organisation to grow in scope and size, to increase their own power. The FBI is a good case study of a relatively narrow-focus group ballooning out of control (not an exaggeration - oversight of the FBI by elected representitives was a joke until after the death of Hoover). The CIA is seeking to expand its brief? Hardly surprising - you're not likely to see the CIA declare, "Hey, the Cold War is over, and we've been grossly incompetant in maintaining US interests in the posr-Cold War world, just disestablish us and set up a new agency!" No, one is seeing the CIA try to justify its size and still expand further by expanding the terms of its mission. And, like the FBI, one should be wary of lending a jingoistic support. I'm sure plenty of people who were happy to see the FBI frame immigrants for selling secrets, oops, catching Communist traitors, were less happy to hear of the FBI blackmailing Martin Luther King, or waste tens of millions of dollars of taxpayers' money spying on dangerous revolutionaries like Kris Kristofferson.

And that's even before considering the morality of it all...

Re:YAY! more US bashing at slashdot!

[Alex Belits]

wow, that's new. Let's say how much the US sucks... all together.

In its relatively short history by now US outsucked most of countries that existed for many centuries more -- and most of other countries were severely criticized by their citizens all the time in the process. OTOH, most of US citizens just *LOVE* their country, so definitely criticism/suckage ratio is still low.

Re:How Interesting . . .

[Stephan Schulz]

There will always be somebody trying to screw us. We should always do whatever we can to screw others before they screw us.

That is brilliant, and I agree 110%.

That's stupid horseshit. Substitute "screw" with "shoot" and count the remaining people on earth...

Re:What a waste of money!

[RealUlli]

Flight.

Which? Heavier than air was developed in US and Australia. A lot of people think it is likely that hot air ballons were used in India and China long before Europe.

*Powered* Flight was developed in the US. Heavier than air, but unpowered, was Otto Lilienthal, near Berlin, Germany.

Re:So *that's* why we've got such a good economy!

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I don't care how much you try to make these agencies seem like faceless and evil entities, real people work hard to try and make the US safe from terrorism. Obviously not all of their activities are used to track terrorism, but your statement is still a ludicrous exaggeration. The fact that these organizations have such a strict and enforced veil of secrecy means that ANYTHING could be happening, and secrecy means little oversight and easy abuse of power. These people that worked so hard to protect the US from terrorism certainly didn't affect the bombing in Oklahoma or those embassies in Africa did it? If America and its rougue organizations (government, individual or corporate) quit making an obnoxious ass of themselves, fewer maligned people would want to bomb us in the first place. Face it, the world has good reason to hate the actions of those in America, although they do unfairly put those that are in absolutely no position to know what is going on with those that are possibly violating laws.

Terrorism and counter-terrorism

[acb]

Maybe if the US didn't throw its weight around quite so much, there would be fewer groups with grudges against it, and it would have less to worry about in the way of terrorism.

Re:Terrorism and counter-terrorism

[Stonehand]

Unlikely, at least if you're thinking international terrorists. Some of the domestic groups under suspicion would probably back down a tad, but you'll never simultaneously please those who would join the (defunct) Weathermen, Earth First!, Kach, or Aryan Nation.

International groups need a unifying factor. That tends to be a hatred of Israel and the US, at least partly fed by ages of bitterness, accompanied by fun disinformation. If memory serves, for instance, the KGB merrily propagated rumors that the CIA was responsible for creating the HIV virus in order to wreak genocide in Africa -- and this idea took hold in a decent number of suspicious minds, despite the fact that it's unclear how that would serve the CIA's interests.

Such ideas will take a LONG time to dislodge, no matter what happens. And if the country buttoned up and went isolationist, that'd just anger other nations in the bargain.

Re:That's their job

[Matthew Bassett]

That's not strictly true. There are a number of crimes that Britons overseas can be tried for in Britain (and a number of crimes which occur to Britons overseas which theoretically the criminals can be tried for in Britain, if they ever manage to get hold of them). Similarly, I understand from American friends (forgive me if I get this wrong, this is from a drunken pub discussion) that Americans living overseas can be tried for in America including, bizarrely enough, not paying your taxes. ?

Re:News for you Charlie Kanuck...

[Zemran]

Are you saying he is a hypocrite because he is of the same nationality as some others that did the same thing that he is complaining about? If so you are too stupid to be allowed to use a computer. Or are you accusing him of being a member of the NSA/CIA? If so on what basis do you make this assertion.

I am British and my gov play an important part in this, but that does not make me a hypocrite for thinking it is wrong.

Sure [was Re:Right on! Tell it like it is!]

[Roelof]

You're right.

It's A-OK to buy a country (with media budgets) but it's plainly wrong to buy a deal.

Sure.

You're right.

You have just got to keep an eye on such buggers, don't cha.

Who knows? They just might get a clue and buy a government. Worse. They might just buy *your* government. Or have they done so already?

The CIA, corporatism, and you...

[Art Tatum]

The CIA has long been the loyal hit squad for U.S. business interests. For example, they crushed freedom fighters in Guatemala to help a giant banana import company. This happened in the 1950s.

As for all those who say, "it happens--get over it," let me inform you that it is our responsibility as citizens to maintain constant vigilance over government. If things like this didn't happen, we wouldn't need to follow their actions. Corporatism is very nasty and we must be as ruthless in fighting it as we are in fighting infringements on our Constitutional rights. Actually, our record on protecting our rights isn't that good either but that's another issue.

Re:The CIA, corporatism, and you...

[Art Tatum]

It does happen, and for good reason.

Are you saying that corporatism is an advantageous policy, Constitution-wise? I don't think it is.

Do you seriously think that everything can be nice and fair right here right now?

No, of course not. However, those who say that it doesn't matter and that we should get used to it are shirking their responsibility to keep watch over government.

It all comes down to whether you are willing to take a cut in your lifestyle for the sake of "justice" or whatever the favorite buzzword people are throwing around is. I will bet that if you were asked to give up the comfortable lifestyle you now enjoy so that everyone can be on equal footing, you wouldn't.

It really isn't about people being on equal footing, it's about our form of government being corrupted. The constantly decreasing power of local governments in favor of central government, the Federal Reserve Act, Executive Orders, and many other "innovations" in government have conspired to distort the elegant federal republic we once had. In addition, people are duped into giving up their rights in the name of "national security" when all it really is is a way to meld the private and public sectors.

That fact of the matter is though, that right or wrong the citizen has the responsibility to stand behind the country.

I would disagree with this. I believe that the citizen has the responsibility to keep constant vigilance over government.

Merely waving around a fist and crying out that the US goverment is the monolithic root of all evil doesn't accomplish anything.

I'm not really saying that. The US is still the best place to live, and the root of all evil is the human soul. However, we have not been doing our civic duty in holding our government accountable.

Face it, the whole rebellion against authority thing is childish.

I'm for authority, but only proper authority. The government is not only overstepping the bounds of the Constitution, but they are actively breaking the laws laid down in that document each and every day. The authors of that document had hoped that the citizenry would be vigilant and head such abuses off at the pass.

The only members of movements I respect are those who actually try and do something about whatever upsets them.

I'm doing that right now. I feel that I should take the opportunity to speak out about these things at any convenient time and perhaps my words will build up interest and courage in my fellow citizens; who knows, maybe they will start paying closer attention. Furthermore, we can go to our representatives and plead our case. We can start a political party (my favorite is the Constitution Party, see www.constitutionparty.com).

I know what you're getting at, and I'm fighting the same thing. I don't want people to just chime in with some slogan, I want them to think about what's going on. I want them to discuss philosophical issues of governance. I want to see people reading (and understanding!) the Federalist Papers, the Anti-Federalist Papers, and Lex Rex.

What you're proposing is called corporatism...

[Art Tatum]

And it's rotten to the core. I certainly hope you don't think we went through all that business in 1776 just to end up with a paternalistic business-government.

Discussion for Nerds?

[craw]

Everytime one of these types of articles get posted we get the typical responses. You know what they are so I won't repeat them.

News for Nerds? Screw that. If you were really into this type of thing and a nerd, your questions would be how do they do this? What kind of equipment do they use? Can I do this? How do I stop this? In a nutshell, give me more technical information. What is the state of the art of the technology? Okay, the spooky dudes probably have better stuff. What could they use?

Okay, I'll start this discussion. Is the CIA using local bugging devices? This would require the limited range transmission of the recording to a localized receiver (just like the Russian diplomat sitting on a park bench outside the State Department). Nah, they would use satellites to intercpet international communications. I guess one must just focus the receiving antenna at the fixed transmitting attenna and retransmit back another receiver. Land-lines? Need a tap somewhere. Hmmm, how much American telephone switches are in place. What would it take to tap a few lines. Data storage and transmission? Backdoor entrances?

According to a recent book, the US tapped a Soviet communication link by placing a recording pod attached to an undersea cable. Farradays' Law I guess.

Sorry for this rambling discourse. I'm in a foul mood due to work and I don't expect sympathy from this crowd.:-) You could pour hot grits down my pants right now and I wouldn't notice a pertified statue right next to me.

Re:Breaking it down...

[craw]

Hope you see this. Thanks for your reply, BTW. MSINT? ROTFL. MS (Microsoft) intelligence? Actually, its MASINT, Measurement and Sensor(?) Intelligence. This refers to the ability to measure the capabilities of a sensor. What can it measure and record, what are its sensitity, noise reduction, etc... ELINT==Emission(?) Intelligence. This involves monitoring the transmission of signals. For instance, monitoring the movement of a car cell phone thereby knowing the position of the car.Radio silence would be a countermeasure against ELINT.

I'll send you some links to more of this as you seem interested in this subject. Once again, thank you. At least there is someone else that wants to expand their mind instead of posting flamebait material.

Most Amusing

[FFFish]

Wonderful amount of acceptance, and even praise, for the US government being sleazy!

Ironic, though, that there is endless wailing and gnashing of teeth whenever it's revealed that the government does just as much spying on its own people.

Hey, you can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Whatever the government does outside its borders, it does the same thing inside. s'fact.

--

duh

[Cheeze]

i think it's pretty much known that the "internet" started out as a United States run wide area network. that gave them plenty of time to learn how to sniff, snoop, and eavesdrop. it's in their best interest to do as much snooping as possible. it's not good to be on the end that gets snooped, but i'd rather the US snoop than some other volatile country just looking for a reason.

Re:Fuck you American Pig

[__aasmho4525]

it's astounding to me that you could even construe what i said to imply what you *assume* i said.

if you choose to read what i wrote in that way, that's certainly your perogative, but I despise bribery in any form, the smallest to the largest. it's the largest cancer in our society today imho. how you ever took my words as otherwise, i won't guess.

on your second point, if you don't believe that every single country in europe or asia hasn't got a case of the bribery blues, i really suggest you visit there and try to start a business. every chinese immigrant i met in college bought their way out of china. EVERY SINGLE ONE. i have first hand experience with business in europe, and i can guarantee you there are many laws formed through the veil of nationalism that are simply based on bribery.

you know, i don't understand why the hostility from all you folks. you and the next poster are simply incapable of seeing anyone you vilify as having any intelligent thought. sorry you are both so insecure.

every time you propagate another myth that every american is a bigoted, greedy bastard, puts you right back into the most dangerous of situations. ignorant stereotyping. haven't we learned that this isn't really a wise move by now?

seems like you have nothing better to do with your time than argue with me instead of actually *thinking* about what i wrote.. i thought about your arguments. are you so closed minded and arrogant that you have to assume "you're a stupid fucking american. i won't waste my time listening"?

off to do something productive instead of reading slashdot.....

clearly, we have some folks always looking for a fight wandering around here.

i'll remind myself to stop posting and ignore slashdot from here on out.

Peter

Re:Fuck you American Pig

[__aasmho4525]

see my comments to the above poster. they certainly apply wholly to you.

how i can reply with a respectful set of points and get flamed truly shows that we live in a pathetic world of "good ol' uncle sam" bigots indeed. (yeah, right. us = evil, everyone else = perfect, i've heard this all somewhere before)

the hostility that exudes out all of your writings is truly astounding... as if you all don't have anything better to do...

i'm off now...
don't worry, i won't waste my time coming back.
you have your way; you win.

i'll leave and kill myself immediately for i'm so stupid and useless; a typical american!

Peter

Of course, we do nothing of the kind

[ponyisi]

I seem to recall something about IBM in Argentina a while ago. Or no?

Re:Get your history right ... (So should you)

[El Cabri]

I'm not completely sure but AFAIK French troops fought against hispanic Mexicans in Mexico (an adventure that has not left much in History, but is still remembered in the French military tradition as the first war fought by the Foreign Legion).

I've never heard about French canadians fighting against US people. French settlers in canada have fought against british settlers before canada was a country.

Ironically, you failed to mention the only episode when French troops actually engaged American troops, that is, the invasion of North Africa in 1942. The engagement was very minor, since the strongly anti-Gaulist US army negociated with the Vichy administration that the latter would be kept in charge of Algeria. The occupying Americans even neglected to ask the Vichy administration to drop Vichy's anti-jews laws, which happened only after de Gaulle took over the French North Africa's administration a few months later.

Re:So? Europeans have been doing this for years

[El Cabri]

Boeing is massively subsided through military research credits. It was saved by those credits in the 70s.

If there was no political will from France and Germany, there would be only one aircraft manufacturer in the world. I wonder how you slashdotters who are often quick to stand for diversity and competition in IT technology would take that.

The American aerospace industry has been founded on government funding, be it the WWII industrial developpement (which _made_ boeing), or the Apollo program.

Airlines don't choose randomly. Airbus planes are competitive, and generaly more innovative that their Seattle counterparts. In less than 20 years they have conquered a 50% marketshare.

Re:Who the hell moderated this up!?

[Helge Hafting]

Oh yeah, the article I read (maybe it was heard; I know this casts great doubt on my reliability, but sorry!) said that in some countries bribary of foreign government officials was actually tax deductable! (how are you supposed to get a receipt for that?)

Easy. A small bribe is "representation". Maybe you pay a trip to your country for that official so he can sign papers. He want a two week trip, brings his family etc. In reality a paid vacation.

You get a receipt for bigger bribes. It don't say "bribe" for sure. It claims to be some sort of obscure tax. Taxes paid in foreign countries are usually deductible, and it is hard to check that it is a "real" tax. The guy may officially be in a position to issue local taxes - pocketing it is a crime committed by him, not the corporation.

Or he can simply increase the price of some service you pay for. A company official can do that - the fact that he's collecting for himself and not his company is again a matter between he and his company.

Re:Who the hell moderated this up!?

[Fizgig]

Well, just to chip in, I have read that that's true (Newsweek or something, about 4 years ago). Doesn't mean that it's actually true, but it at least backs it up. The claim is not that bribery is legal in other countries (I sure hope not), but that for instance it is illegal for Americans to bribe Brazilian customs officers. It's illegal for American's to bribe OTHER country's officials.

Of course, this is never, ever enforced, and it happens all the time, even with people/companies that have strong moral stances against bribery, becuase they often cannot get anything done without bribary. This is partially as a result of some governments paying below-poverty-line salaries to such officials expecting that the bribes will make up the difference. There are NGOs working to increase the salaries of these people to try to reduce the amount of bribary necesssary to transact international business.

I don't believe the US making foreign bribery illegal has much impact, since it's never enforced, but I just thought I'd back up the facts of the first guy. Oh yeah, the article I read (maybe it was heard; I know this casts great doubt on my reliability, but sorry!) said that in some countries bribary of foreign government officials was actually tax deductable! (how are you supposed to get a receipt for that?)

Re:This is not news!!!!

[alfredo]

I agree with you. They want to look like victims, but they are just playing politics for the hometown yokels.

How Interesting . . .

[LionMan]

Am I the only one who finds our government being a tad ethnocentric here? It's also very noble . . .
More surprising is that the openly admit their own bigotry. Wow. I'm proud to be in this country. Go Uncle Sam!

Re:How Interesting . . .

[Arctic Fox]

I'm not sure if ethnocentric is the right word. "American" is not an ethnicity. It's cultural.

It would seem to me that the government and groups of people within it, is divided against itself. Many of the President's closest advisors are wildly Globalistic. WTO, UN, NATO, this list goes on. Then there are the nationalists, like members of Congress, most of the military, and people in FBI,NSA, etc who work to benefit Americans.

Gathering intellegence on a foreign state is definately acceptable. Remember, treaties are temporary (we were Stalin's allies at one point).
Gathering intelligence on corporations, well, that's questionable. Companies like COSCO,Lippo Group which are fronts for the Chinese Red Army would be more acceptable.

Re:How Interesting . . .

[Arctic Fox]

There will always be somebody trying to screw us. We should always do whatever we can to screw others before they screw us.

That is brilliant, and I agree 110%.

I am just troubled by the union of government and industry in this way. If a company wants to spy on another, fine... Goverment spying on another country's company then passing information to our own companies (which most are multi-national anyway)... that is troubling.

Re:How Interesting . . .

[quecojones]

I am just troubled by the union of government and industry in this way. If a company wants to spy on another, fine... Goverment spying on another country's company then passing information to our own companies (which most are multi-national anyway)... that is troubling.

That's understandable... especially the part about the multi-nationals.

I'd assume that if the company getting the data were a multi-national, they would tailor that data so as to only offer whatever info would serve the purpose of getting the US ahead economically.

Then again, we are talking about the US government here, so I may be assuming too much. ;)

q

Re:How Interesting . . .

[quecojones]

I stand corrected. :)

q

Re:How Interesting . . .

[quecojones]

Gathering intelligence on corporations, well, that's questionable

Personally, I see no problem and/or anything wrong with this. I mean, it's not like the US is the only country doing this (the french have been doing this for a while now). At least they admit it. Reminds me of George Carlin's comment on Bill Clinton: "He's full of shit but, at least he's honest about being full of shit." (paraphrased).

It would be nice if countries didn't do this sort of thing and some people might say that we should set an exapmle by not soing it ourselves but, that would be extremely naieve.

There will always be somebody trying to screw us. We should always do whatever we can to screw others before they screw us.

It may not be nice but, it's realistic. Just my $0.02.

q

Re:How Interesting . . .

[HandyFrog]

Very troubling. Arrogance helping robbery.

- A frenchie living in the US.

Re:How Interesting . . .

[John_Constantine]

Or to quote Jello Biafra from the Dead Kennedy's 'Stars and Stripes of Corruption': "You say love it, or leave it. I get beat up if I criticize it. You say you'll fight to the death to save your useless flag. If you want a banana republic that bad, why dont you go move to one?"

Re:How Interesting . . .

[blane.bramble]

Sorry, but we have some very firm laws on government procurement in the UK. Socialism does NOT equal corruption - if it did, then right wing dictatorships would be totally above board wouldn't they? When will Americans learn that there are more ways of running a country than being a right-wing republic, and governments are not intrinsically evil just because they are different.

They're different from us, so they're evil. Lets kill them. Is this truly the message of America? I hope not.

Re:How Interesting . . .

[Stary]

Nobody's holding you in this country...Find the first flight out if you want out so bad.

<SARCASM>YAY! Let's all stop trying to make things better or critizise what's wrong, let's just all move somewhere else!</SARCASM>

Oh now please! Really... I'm so damn tired of this "if you dont like it move somewhere else" attitude. What if you find something you really dont like with your country? Would you shut up and just move without a word? Or would you complain about it? Maybe you have something keeping you in your country? Family? Friends? Come on... if we all just shuffle around like bees each time something is wrong and keep our mouths shut to not voice our oppinions and annoy people who cant take someone with a different oppinion in their country, how do you expect anything to be good in the end?

Let 'em bribe away..it brings its own reward

[DamnYankee]

Bribery may be rampant throughout the world. But the nations where it is endemic are far less successful than those where it is rare.

I have lived in Stockholm the last five years in a culture where bribery is rare and treated as a crime (surf here). Despite the horrible tax rates and small population here, this society is one of the richest on earth.

Previous to this I lived in Honduras, which is listed as the sixth most corrupt nations in the world. Bribes in Honduras suck the country dry of any usable capital and hamstring the entire economy. The trickle down effect of bribes, feeding bribes, feeding bribes waters down any real value without producing anything (any good or service)!

I think the countries Woolsey is referring to most are Germany and France. While living in Central America, these guys played very fast and loose with all of the countries' natural resources there via a variety of NGO's and official aid agencies. Bribery was their modus operandi and I knew personally several Honduran officials on their 'payroll'. I also met a couple scientists who had first hand knowledge of German bribery funding Teak deforestation via an NGO in Indonesia.

For what it's worth, in my experience the countries that participate in this game always lose in the long run - and that includes both the bribers and bribees. Evesdropping may provide some short-term benefits in specific circumstances for more honest countries, but in the long run honesty pays off in direct, tangible benefits such as a vibrant economy and real wealth creation.

Re:Let 'em bribe away..it brings its own reward

[RoyalTS]

And you think US companies dont engage in bribery themselves. I hate those double standards here in the US, while intervening in Kosovo, because of atrocities the US sold massive amounts of military equipment to Turkey...

Re:America is an economy.

[the eric conspiracy]

whats its culture or ideals that make it different?

The point here is that American popular culture has been very much adopted by the rest of the world - American culture is not different because everyone copies it and incorporates it into their own culture. Many countries have had to introduce various laws to try to protect their own cultures from being overwhelmed by this phenomena. Radio and TV stations have to play local music, theatres must show locally produced films and so on. American English has become the Lingua Franca. The Internet is almost totally English, and in most civilized countries the ability to speak fluent English has become a requisite to finding a good job.

Is American culture different from other cultures? How could it be, since most other cultures have been subsumed by it to a large degree.

super dandy hair remover! (tm)

[confidential]

does that mean we can get the new handy dandy hair remover system that has been in the works in europe for years?

seriously though, as Douglas Adams said, "if its been in use in high rank salons in europe for years why did it take so long to get here?"

all those nice people

[Woolfie]

It never ceases to surprise me how many of those "open source-", "freedom of speech-", and whatsoever-lovers get militant as soon as the topic involves the relationship between different nations. Then it is "our" corporations, "our" economy versus "the other's" economy.
This is a mindset that that shows that the average IQ on this site is not really higher than on the rest of the net.
To call oneself "nerd" or a "geek" is obviously only just another way of saying one is "better" than others, just as in "I'm american and the others suck" or "I'm european and the others suck".
I am so very much disappointed about the oftentimes quite primitive niveau of these discussions.

Re:mainstream

[StarKiller]

You have made a very,very important point.
This shows how the public is being controlled by
the mainstream-media. Even in a free medium like
the Internet most people will not get information
that is "inappropriate" for them because they have
no idea how to get it.
But what I find is the saddest part is that 50%
of the people living over here in Europe will not
learn about it either. America is just to nice
a projection plane for any hopes and desires. And
the commercial media takes advantage of that.

Re:That's their job

[nhw]

The laws of a country apply only on that country's soil. If you break them, that country prosecutes you by their laws. Simple.

Simply wrong. Many states choose to exercise their jurisdiction over their citizens when they are abroad. For example, in England, we have laws that have been used successfully to prosecute 'sex tourists' who have sexually abused minors whilst on holiday in Thailand.

And who says a country shouldn't be able to break laws if it is willing to accept the penalties when caught? I break the law every day, speeding to work, and am willing to pay the ticket when caught.

I rather fail to see the parallel. Many countries have the doctrine of 'act of state', wherein the foreign policy actions of the government are not susceptible to any form of judicial review. There is no 'penalty' for 'breaking the rules', as such.

On the other hand, it does weaken the democratic mandate of a government which is alleged to operate constitutionally under the rule of law.

I expect my government to heed the principle that it, too, operates under the rule of law; including being contained by the boundaries that the legislature has set for it: anything else is an executive usurption of the role of the legislature, and a violation of the core notion of the separation of powers.

I bet you wouldn't speed to work every day if you thought that the traffic cop that stopped you might decide to put a bullet in your brain rather than give you a ticket...

Re:That's their job

[nhw]

I have to disagree. If someone broadcasts sensitive information and it gets intercepted, I wouldn't call that theft. If the information is sensitive, it should be encrypted and/or routed over hard line.

So, by analogy, if you're so lax as to leave your bike unsecured, I should be entitled to steal it?

Moreover, given that the NSA (etc.) doesn't make it common knowledge exactly what its capabilities actually are in the field of cryptanalysis, what level of paranoia should companies (or, indeed, individuals) be forced to adopt in order to secure themselves?

Re:This is not news!!!!

[nhw]

Collecting economic intelligence is completely understandable - after all, economic crises are an incredible threat to the U.S. Collecting economic intelligence makes perfect sense; it can help us prepare for and manage economic catastrophe long before it happens.

It think the part of this that people find disturbing is not so much that economic intelligence is gathered, but that it is subsequently divulged for what appears to be commercial gain, rather than in the interests of national security.

And on that basis:

Keep in mind that most of the information is OSINT (open source intelligence), and not intelligence obtained by spying. To quote the article: "Whether economic or military, most US intelligence data came from open sources, [Woolsey] said. But 'five percent is essentially secrets that we steal. We steal secrets with espionage, with communications, with reconnaissance satellites.'

Even if it is the case that 95% of intelligence is gathered from open sources (and I've no reason to doubt that), the fact still remains that it has been collated, assessed for reliability, digested and disseminated with money that is supposed to be spent on providing national security.

Market intelligence is a tremendously valuable commodity; there are certainly companies the livelihoods of which depend on selling it. To provide it 'free of charge' is a tremendous boon to the companies involved, and a subsidy which effectively comes out of a large (and largely opaquely accounted) intelligence gathering budget.

[OT] Latin sig quotes

[nhw]

Meanwhile, on a far more important note, I spent several minutes trying to figure out your Latin .sig line. Google brought me to the Aeneid in Latin (no translation), but - get this - it also brought me to several Slashdot articles you've written. (Same with Yahoo and Find.com.) In the end, the best I could come up with was from the Perseus Project, a line about how Dido never dreamed that love like that she shared with Aeneas could ever die. Is that about right?

The quotation is, indeed, from the Aeneid; Book IV to be precise... I'm not sure where the translation you've got has come from, but it doesn't seem to be from quite the right part of the book...

As I remember it, Williams' translation goes something like: O relentless love, to what mad courses may not mortal hearts by thee be driven!. It refers in main to the panic into which Dido is thrown when Aeneas begins his preparations to depart from Carthage, having been informed by the gods that he is abandoning his fated purpose by lingering their with Dido.

PS. I would've emailed this, but you don't appear to have an email address on file...

because...

[eriks]

Why do the companies accept this?

Greed. Plain and simple. This kind of stuff gets me mad too. I can't respect corporations or governments that behave this way. Although in many ways this kind of thing is the least offensive form of corruption that goes on in government... but don't get me started...

Re:Who cares about you?

[Score Whore]

And pray tell who let them in? They didn't evolve here don't you know. There's documented evidence of the "native americans" moving down from the bearing straight pushing the previously "native americans" down north america, into south america and then they were gone.

Spying inethical?

[ranton]

Wait a minute, what is unethical about spying? How is corruption and ethics rearing its head in this matter? If America was to disband all espionage it would be like disbanding our entire military. How would abandoning national security and endangering American lives be unethical?

There are many governments and other social bodies that consider America their enemy. We need operatives in these organizations. When war broke out in Iraq I am sure that we had many spies in their army and government. And remember, we were helping them only a decade earlier in their war against Iran (making them our allies). We cannot just but spies in place after they are our enemy. We need spies everywhere just in case we have problems in that area of the world. If war suddenly broke out in Egypt, for instance, we better have spies over there feeding us intel that our satellites cannot find.

It annoys me when people talk from their high ethical purches and try to give the world a lesson in morality. Espionage is not unethical, and it isnt even a nessessary evil. It isnt an evil at all. It is simply one more extensive of a government doing its job.

Re:If they can easily spy on corporations...

[NovaX]

Well, first off Microsoft doesn't need the government's help on obtaining some magical code that is hurting it. MS has enough of its own resources to either destroy the owners, buy it, or create a reproduction and try to capitalize the market through its extremely broad channels. Microsoft has only been hurt by fighting a ghost, an enemy it cannot see or hurt - a damn idea. Its happened in the past, and it doesn't have to be morally better then the existing structure, just has a good ring to it. The Pope recently asked for forgiveness due to massive crimes towards Jews, women, minorities, and human rights. Religion is a good example of this ideology, which governments cannot kill (many attacks on Jews, way before 20th century). Are these ideas the best? No, but they've got some good stuff in them, enough that its worth paying attention to. (personally, I think Open Source is a good idea, just not "free software")

The industrial espinauge is, as they claim, only for extreme cases where it is pretty vital. China finally made a more advanced rocket for missles, then for national security the US is damn well going out how. China and others have done so to the US. The US isn't known for being morally superior or horribly reched. Any relatively successful country will do this, legally or not. Its life.

Oh, and for the sick bit about the /. enemies.. ugh.. I hate this lemmings crap. Slashdot is pretty awful by itself, really, by pushing half-truths in such causes against "enemies." I consider Microsoft a competitor in any software field, the MPAA as being short sighted towards reality due to its member's goals, and John Johnson to be nothing of a hero. He's lied, twisted facts to make him look morally superior, and the only reason I see him gaining any support towards legal costs is because his father shouldn't be stuck with a bill. That's just my beliefs, just as I actually read the offending Corel license that /. screamed about, saw nothing illegal about it, and was told by people like Bruce Perens that they don't give a fuck whether Corel did anything wrong. Its about scaring the fuck out of anyone who may even think twice about fucking with you. RMS's recent reply to amazon seems pretty dumb considering Amazon did not fire the first shot, but was continuing a long give-and-take battle (Apple and MS did this).

Get your own fucking ideas. Linus isn't god, RMS isn't some old hack who wants credit for Linux, "free software" isn't morally better than proprietary software, ESR isn't some grand philosophy (but he's damn quiet once he gets paid off), Marx contributed vastly to society intellectually, AI machines will make mankind slaves by 2021 is riduculous, and because whatever the latest game looks kinda cool doesn't mean you've just gotta get into computer science. There's a fucking world out there with more important stuff and you don't need to believe this all of this propiganda dribble.

Go to a real college, take sociology and humanities classes, and don't do CS because your to lazy and think its easy money. You can learn something in life, or just be a damn wothless lemming.

Re:BULLSHIT!!!!

[twinpot]

The DGSE killed ONE Greenpeace photographer who was onboard the Rainbow Warrior while it was docked in harbour in New Zealand. A very half-arsed job they did too, a got caught.

And to think the US corporations never use bribery (campaign funds in the US, bribes through third parties overseas, or "pressure" from the US govt. if you are looking at buying from overseas)!

All governments do it, but to claim the moral high ground is a bit rich.

Re:So? Europeans have been doing this for years

[twinpot]

the French are notorious for their tenacious protection of their own internal market

Replace "French" with "US" in above.

How many non-US built arms/aircraft etc. does the US have ?? How many US airlines run Airbus jets ??

Perhaps many US slashdotter hate the French, because they look too much like yourselves ......

Re:What a waste of money!

[twinpot]

Heavier than air flight - it was being developed in a number of places, I take it you are referring to powered, heavier than air flight. First controlled powered flight is accredited to the US (Wright brothers), but Richard Pierce (NZ) may have been a year or so earlier.

There is some evidence that the Koreans were using what looked like a cross between a hang-glider and a kite in the 1600's

Re:So? Europeans have been doing this for years

[twinpot]

Thanks for the info re: NWA

Boeing get their assistance through less direct means.

NSA and Microsoft

[zanONi]

It's has been proved that NSA infiltrated Microsoft to introduce backdoors in Windows.

Do we need to check all Linux or BSD programmer ?
Make they sign a certification "I'm not working for a intelligence agency...

That would instaure a real paranoid. X code contains a Buffer Overflow... is he one of them ?

Re:BULLSHIT!!!!

[Betcour]

sunk the Rainbow Warrior, the flagship of GreenPeace in the South Pacific, killing two anti-nuclear activists

They killed one, and by mistake since the boat was supposed to be empty. Of course the French could have sunken it when it was crusing into the French military restricted area, which would have been their legitimate right, but prefered to do it when the boat was empty. And for the dead guy, well, that's too bad, but death is a risk one must accept when violating a military area (especially when you do so with a bunch of recording equipement).

I may be a troll for saying this but...

[CiXeL]

It seems the government is going public and coming clean with more and more things that are definately suspicious and generally NOT GOOD. Has anyone here seen Dante's Peak with that quote that brosman says about a pot coming to boil where he says you cook a lobster slowly so they cant feel it rather and not notice themselves cooking until its too late. Im beginning to feel the same way about the incremental changes occurring in our government. They republicans and democrats only seem to agree on one thing which is to continue to take away our rights. Chipping away at the first and second amendments until its like the book animal farm and the laws mean only what the elite feels they should mean. Fuck the government! If we were to time travel from midway through the 80s to this month we would see exactly what the government is doing. This is undeniably moving towards a dictatorship, scary, very scary. I wonder in how many decades it will take for things to come to a head.

'national culture' of bribery ?!?!?!?!?!?

[montey]

I find this statement to be hilarious, especially given the fact that the grass-roots economy of the US is based entirely on bribery.

The various service industries of the US work on an employment policy of paying minimum wage and employees increasing their pay packet via the gaining of "tips". A tip is given by a consumer with the distinct purpose of rewarding the service provider for good service. Thus the prospect of getting a good tip encourages the service provider to give better service.

What this essentially means is that the receiver of services will give money to the giver of services to get them to serve the receiver better. In other words the receiver BRIBES the giver to get better service.

Hence for the US to spy on other companies from other countries and then justifying this by proclaiming them to be centers of bribery and corruption is unbelievably hypocritical.

But then again since when did the US government ever expect anything less than "do what I say and not what I do"???

Really...

[patryn]

I don't think this is anything that anyone didn't know, and I think it is the logical progression. The new unit of wealth is information, not bombs or guns, because now there are many countries that can blow up other countries with a button. Before, world governments would steal military secrets because that was might, now might is information.
<BR><BR>
--Patryn

Usa spying on Europe

[cmel]

The free worlds defender of international justice...
What else can you expect from a country where goverment agencys kill there own precident.....

Heheheh

Re:Politic spying != economic spying

[cgadd]

> Normally thought, spying was done on political grounds. economical ground
> was typically limited to industrial spying and not commandited by
> government themselves.

Get real. China and Russia are probably doing a lot more damage to the US by stealing technology than by stealing military secrets.

Total Mischaracterization

[Lawrence_Bird]

The lead in for this speech / q&a session is
totally misleading. Woosley clearly states that
the CIA's only interest has been in cases of
bribery or other 'unfair' tactics by foreign
firms to win contracts, and that the information
will go to the state dept. He also says that
they dont have the resources to go on fishing
trips and that in general, the US is the leader
in most of todays valuable technologies. Please
try not to politicize everything that has 'CIA'
or 'NSA' on it.

I think you missed the direction of the comment,

[Evil Poot Cat]

which was, that non-u.s. intel agencies performed such actions for their own benefit (and benefit of their "patrons".

What can you do?

[Keefesis]

I think it's stupid that our national security services spent time and resources spying on international coorporations. They had a justified reason that I agree with, but the fact remains, if they had something they could use against those companies they still wouldn't beable to use it because they they'd have to admit they were monitoring communications. It would spawn a firestorm in the political world. Surely someone had to realize this...that even if we did get some good dirt we'd have a hard time using it against anyone, what do we pay those goons for anyway? Heh, i still think it's better that they're spying on someone besides me, can't argue with that....

Re:That's their job

[Stonehand]

Then you can't do business in Europe with that attitude, or Asia, 'coz for all practical purposes, there are no major countries which don't do industrial espionage.

The ex-Director wasn't making things up about the French bugging airplances and riffling through briefcases. That French intelligence is VERY active in corporate espionage is well-documented. The SVR has inherited its predecessor's main directives, including industrial espionage (The KGB placed a HUGE emphasis on it. It saved them utterly insane amounts of money...).

Frankly, you're naive if you think any major nation DOESN'T spy on business travelers and business interests.

Re:Spying is undesirable, inevitable but preventab

[Stonehand]

*blinks*

Spying is pretty much constant.

In addition, not all of it is just intercepting electronic communications. Human intelligence is another aspect of it.

Unless you can be SURE that not a single one of your employees is disgruntled, or EVER going to be disgruntled or otherwise corruptible, info can leak. A LOT of valuable information has, historically, been leaked by people with access to documents, a suitcase, and a weakness -- greed, vulnerability to blackmail (like, say, flying in to Moscow, and falling in with a dame who just *happened* to hit on you, and later finding out that the whole fling was orchestrated and being presented with photos), or so forth.

Kim Philby was thought pretty darn reliable at one point. Enough that, IIRC, he was considered in line to eventually head British Intelligence. The KGB must have considered Mitrokhin reliable, to let him be an archivist with so much access. And so forth.

As someone outside the US, I must say...

[KGBear]

... that yes, I know you're not bad as a people. But to discover that fact I had to go to the US many times and make friends there. But when most people look at the US from the outside what they see is Hollywood, Disney World, wars, wars and more wars, and a lot of intervention in *their* own country. Some of this can be ascribed to pure and simple envy, because the Hollywood and Disney side of the equation leads them to believe all Americans are happy, rich and get laid every night. The other, ugly side is the real effect people feel in their lives from the interventionism. Myself, having a lot of American friends, I think they're all individually nice people, but they usually don't have a clue what their government is doing outside their borders, or they would never allow it.

waa ha ha hoo hoo hee hee ha ha ha gack snort

[anonymous cowerd]

> Look, as long as they don't spy on Americans...

Oh stop it! It hurts my ribs to laugh this hard!

Yours WDK - WKiernan@concentric.net

Re:So? Europeans have been doing this for years

[Tau Zero]

How many US airlines run Airbus jets ??

Enough. For instance, in 1992 Northwest Airlines (a US carrier) became the largest user of Airbus aircraft in the world, when they took delivery of their 32nd A-320. And in 1997, NWA ordered another 50 Airbus aircraft.

Airbus Industrie would not exist if it weren't for European government subsidies. IMHO, the USA is pretty generous to allow Europe to finance competition for Boeing (and incidentally, put Lockheed out of the commercial aircraft business and force McDonnell-Douglas into a takeover) without claiming unfair trading practices and charging back the subsidies.
--

Who the hell moderated this up!?

[jedrek]

This trully is an interesting 'fact', too bad that it's not true. Bribery is illegal in many other countries (including Poland) and it is considered unethical all over the EU. Too bad that ethics seem to have no place in modern business anymore.

Jay


-- polish ccs mirror

This is news?

[Phrogman]

I mean its nice to see someone admit it publically, but it comes as no suprise to me that the US intelligence community works for the benefit of US corporations - US politicians work for the benefit of US corporations as well since thats who pays for them. It takes so much cash to be elected in a modern democracy that only those with the good corporate connections can *afford* to get elected. Do you think those corporations fund candidates solely out of the kindness of their hearts?

True democracy is a myth these days. We are governed by those with the money to buy the politicians their offices. I think anyone who truly believes otherwise is living in a dream world.

(Mind you there are some exceptions, Switzerland seems to have a good democratic system from what I have read).

Volvo!

[lovebyte]

Even if it is owned by Ford, it is still a swedish company!

5% is a lot

[BSD_Beck]

If 5% of my belongings were stolen, I wouldn't feel very good about myself.


Bwuckatah bwuckatah bahhh, bwuckatah bwuckatah bahhh!

Re:5% is a lot

[ATKeiper]

If 5% of my belongings were stolen, I wouldn't feel very good about myself.

And you should be commended for that - it shows that you have moral standards above those of the occasional thief.

But we're not talking about belongings kept in an apartment or house, of course. We're talking about secrets which affect the lives of millions of Americans and billions of others around the globe. Some of the information the U.S. intelligence community gathers secretly includes:

• The location and number of Chinese nuclear missiles, more than a dozen of which could already hit U.S. targets.

  The status of the nuclear weapons programs in Iraq.

  The health of North Korea's economy, which is an important indicator of that country's stability - and therefore, of the entire region's safety.

  The software piracy market in Hong Kong.

  The relationship between Moscow corporate heads and the Kremlin leadership.

These are just a few examples of important intelligence collected secretly (or "stolen," as you say). I'm glad there are people finding these things out.

A. Keiper

I work for a foriegn company . .

[Money__]

. and I'm appauled that things like this are being done on our own shores. The company I work for imports machine tools, that are made and assembled in japan, into the united states. Our little company employs appx. 150 people, 125 of whom are american.

The quote that scares me the most is: "Some of our old friends and allies are in this business as well, not only by putting microphones in the head rests of their airliners which cross the Atlantic, in first class seats, but in other ways as well ... There are European countries where .. if you leave your briefcase when you go to dinner, if you're a businessman and there's anything sensitive in it, you should have your head examined".

I've taken that kind of flight (JAL airlines LAX to Tokyo) many many times. The thought that my own government would be spying on my activities under the guise of "protecting american interests" is apauling!
_________________________

Re:I work for a foriegn company . .

[Money__]

I find these remarks regarding this matter extremly offending.

I personaly know some engineers effected by the Toshibaa decistion to seel 5-axis machining centers to Russia. I also know how Toshiba was forced to give up it's hard earned position as the number #1 spot as PIM (Plastic Injection Molding) machine tool seller in the US market as a result of the 5-axis decision.

The amazing part of it all, is when Toshiba was kicked out of the US market, it was another japaneese mfg that swooped in to capture that market.

What I find most offending about your comments is that the information needed to ban Toshiba from the US market has absolutly nothing to do with spying, CIA, spooks, intell, NSA, or clandestine operations of any kind. The entire deal was done in the open, with complete honesty and integrity. It was wrong. Toshiba payed the price. heavily.
_________________________

Re:I work for a foriegn company . .

[Ded Mike]

"I find these remarks regarding this matter extremely offending."
}}Tough. And the word is 'offensive.' I found your post (the initial one) to be offensive, as well as misinformed and naive. The article was making the point about Europe, not Japan. You opened that can of worms.

As to your 5 engineer friends, did they enjoy their stay in Krasnoyarsk? As to who replaced Toshiba, who cares...it just proves the ruthlessness of the Japanese, even towards their own countrymen. I do know that _no_ Japanese national or employee of a Japanese company has (or ever will) receive the same co-operation from the US Defense establishment that they enjoyed prior to this incident.

Finally, just as you were misinformed about the airliners (which were done by _French_ spooks on _French_ planes) you are misinformed about the details of the Toshiba case.

In the late 1960's American firms were targeted by the Japanese State Intelligence service on behalf of MITI, the Ministry of Technology. One of the vertical markets (I believe there were 10) that were targeted was the machine tool industry. Those companies who were not open or greedy enough to have their patents stolen or bought out from under them, were bought outright when the Yen rose in prominence against the US dollar during the recession of the late '70s. Toshiba was one of a number of 'zaibatsu' that benefitted from this program. The result was the absolute _ruin_ of small, progressive American machine tool companies, one of the only sectors of the American economy where quality and W. Edwards Deming's work was respected and successful. This was probably when the company you work for was bought by your Japanese parent.

In the early 80s, it was discovered that many of the machine tool technologies that had been accquired, and, more importantly, many of the vital industrial secrets that were shared with Japanese firms in the name of the national security of both Japan and the US were finding their way into the hands of the Soviet Union. The case came to light when the Americans broke up a KGB "Technical Collection Cell' in the Kobe Prefecture (either Yokosuka or Yokohama) involving a group of Russian, East German and Korean, and Japanese nationals. So much for 'honest, open and integrity.' As a result, the Toshiba case came to light as a joint KGB/MITI operation. When the full details of Toshiba's duplicity were made public, I remember being on a submarine base and employees of the NEX and some sailors were in the parking lot smashing Toshiba televisions and stereos. Saw the same thing at the exchanges in Subic Bay and Yokosuka. Toshiba was lucky it was allowed to continue in business, given that the _entire_ weight of Japan's external defense fell on (and still falls on) the US. The damage to both Japanese and US anational security was so severe, there were very real concerns for the continuance of the relationship.

Now, on to your original post: Being as how you work for a Japanese company, your company has little to fear on a JAL (Japanese government owned) airliner. An Intel or Red Hat or TransMeta executive, however, has much to fear, dating all the way back to before WWII.

Japanese state intelligence agencies have _always_ targeted US corps. Been far more successful at it than we have against them. That was my response to your original post.

Don't try to teach your grandmother to suck eggs. And don't comment on something you are obviously so ignorant about, without doing all yoour homework. Waikarimas?

Re:I work for a foriegn company . .

[RoyalTS]

God, how fucking ignorant are you? Of course Germany and many other "civilized nations sold material to Sadam Hussein, but so did the US! Before the Gulf War, believe it or not the US and Iraqu were allies, the US giving Sadam massive amounts of money and simply ignoring atrocities against the Kursish population and other crimes against humanity.

Re:Bribery Ratings

[Ioldanach]

Whom will they give the tecnology to? MDD? Boeing? anybody else? To the biggest/strongest/weakest/friendliest Megaconcern?

Why, to the people who last took them to a dinner & golf outing in florida, of course!

Re:That's their job

[Alpha State]

So I suppose the NSA/CIA's job includes ripping off non-US companies, damaging the economies of other countries and creating a foreign relations nightmare for the US government. I'm sure glad my country's intelligence service isn't so "efficient".

I'm pissed off because this kind of bullshit is making life worse for everybody. So much for free trade, travel without visas and time restrictions and cooperation between companies. I hope this leads to less international cooperation with the US but it will probably just lead to an arms war of international industrial espionage.

Re:BULLSHIT goes round & round & round ...

[Ded Mike]

Hollywood crap again. The 'Australia' defense was one concoted by the 'young man's ' lawyers at his trial. The real reason those two bozoids did the deed was completely for the cash, in order to buy cocaine to deal to their high school and college buddies.

Tomorrow for you too.

Sweetheart...

[Ded Mike]

...you wouldn't know a fascist if he had his boot on your neck you cowardly little sack of quivering dung!

BTW, did I ever tell you AC's what pretty little ol' mouths you had?

Re:News for you Mike

[Ded Mike]

1. You don't get in to the SCI/Close-held cells because they are by nature 'NOFORN,' meaning 'no foreign nationals'. Unless the cell is 'countermarked' allowing access to Canadian nationals (normally military or GCHQ/CSIS) you don't even know the cell exists. If you have no access to the cell you don't see its methods/information/technology. Thus, you can't know what you are talking about.

2. The whole _purpose_ of a program 'like' Echelon (if Echelon exists), in my mind, would be for everyone to plead 'plausible deniability.' The CSIS, spies on the US and the CIA/NSA spies on Canada, then we swap info. Nobody violates any laws in their respective countries as to domestic collection. They rely on their 'cousins' for that. That's not what I was talking about in my previous post. I was not talking necessarily about the CSIS alone. I was also including the Canadian counterpart to the Commerce Department, who, like the US cousins (as well as the State Department) has an intelligence arm. Also, CSIS corporate types would probably be in a separate cell structure/department from yours, so you wouldn't even know they were there. This last would be especially true if you were involved with the NSA, as you allege, since you are now 'suspect.' and possibly compromised or conflicted in your loyalties.

3. I _know_ what can be known. Believe me. I too have stories of things that go "PFFFFT,' in the night. The only defense is to live a life free of secrets and to _always_ be on your guard and prepared to defend yourself by any means necessary. I don't want to live in a cave. And I make a quite nice living with computers. As long as I stay away from the security aspects of the technology, I am left alone. I believe that a gentleman in New Orleans, Louisiana put it best when he said "Three can keep a secret, if two are dead."

Finally, I would not call you a liar, except to your face. But your post is one of the 'insoluble problems' with AC's. If you are for real, then you you would not post except by AC, because of your paranoia. However, there is no way to tell if you are lying, as an AC, especially given the tone of your post and your obvious lack of a grasp of reality: ie: Canadian security personnel in the US and aimed at the US will look out for Canada first. To believe anything else is paranoid conspiracist claptrap.

This is a surprise? This is bad?

[Ded Mike]

Isreal, France, the UK, and the masters of this, the Russians, have all admitted the same.

The French Surete and the DGE were caught bugging the business class of Air France airliners. MI5 and MI6 were caught in France, Germany and the US doing the same. Jonathon Pollard was doing it for Isreal, and then the Mossad was caught actively recruiting 'agents-in-place' in American high tech firms. The Russians admitted that the only thing that kept them on par with the Americans (and kept them from being militarily, the Third World country they were in reality) during the Cold War was economic espionage (second on their 'To-Do' list only to suppressing dissidents -internal and external- Read 'The KGB Papers' for more.) Let's not mention China and India (India was caught planting 'Trojan' code in American corporate software Indian companies were contracted and _paid_ to retrofit for the Y2K bug!)

The CIA and NSA are underwritten (mostly!) by my tax dollars. I _want_ them to look out for the best interests of American companies.

Additionally, isn't it odd that this guy is the same guy who is currently under investigation for gross misuse of office and various irregularities of information security that put many American agents at risk of their lives. Isn't this the same guy that now represents foreign firms in his consulting practice, after harvesting secrets from the files of the agency he directed, and then getting caught?

Two points:
1) Given the general cluelessness of Reno and the Justice Department (and the FBI! the CIA's Public Enemy #1, led by Louis 'the Clueless' Freeh), isn't it a _good thing_ to have a Cabinet-level officer (DCI) who can counter their drivel and obvious agenda with a _different_ set of facts/perceptions?
2) Since the world's economy is on the skids, and the only quasi-stable economy is that of the US, isn't it in the enlightened self interest of the rest of the world that the US do what is _plainly_ being done by the rest of the world here?

Finally, the economic/technical weapon of tomorrow is embodied in the research of today. To be informed of that potential weapon/technology is a primary tenet of the charter under which the CIA, the NSA (and, yes, even the FBI and Secret Service -although they're not too effective due to their immediate political natures/agendas/concerns/structures) operates. That some of this intelligence finds its way to the very corporations it would most benefit is a fact of life and Federal Budgets (as well as a _very_ good thing!)

Except for the DCI, almost all of the CIA employees are long-term careerists, giving this agency a view _far_ more long than the FBI. Same goes for the NSA.

Re:This is a surprise? This is bad?

[Ded Mike]

I did not post as 'flame-bait' and can back up _everything_ I have asserted above. I think this would require a bunch of different threads to which I would _love_ to contribute facts, but it is after midnite here and I have to be up early for work. If the thread is still open tomorrow morning, I will respond with the beginnings of links and reasoning.

In the meantime, to begin, see my response below to the Russian gentleman who asked for a source for my assertion that the KGB commited acts of economic espionage against the entire West, but especially the US (I give the ISBN for the Mitrokhin files, in which it is documented that the _only_ way the Russians were able to prop up their bankrupt system was through economic espionage. Otherwise the 70 Years War would have ended immediately after the Cuban Missle Crisis.).

I agree that Echelon and economic espionage is distasteful. That does not make it unnecessary. As pointed out in a previous post, the US, these days, is nothing _but_ an economy. My tastes run towards Freeman Dyson's 'village.' I hope it comes soon. In the meantime, we must live in reality.

You might also consider the source of the report. Former-DCI Woolsey has his reasons for smearing his former agency and his government.

Thank you for your clarification of the roles/functions of MI5 and MI6. I can never keep them straight, but, then, that's the point, isn't it?

If the post is closed before I can reply, please feel free to Email me. I _never_ send unsolicited emails directly from a Slashdot posting thread, but given time, I always reply to my Email...perhaps I should contemplate resurrecting my INTELL page, and trying to get Hemos to post it. Maybe we can meet on USENET?

Re:This is a surprise? This is bad?

[Quintus]

" Since the world's economy is on the skids, and the only quasi-stable economy is that of the US, isn't it in the enlightened self interest of the rest of the world that the US do what is _plainly_ b"

Please. Could we have a bit of enlightened impartiality here? You seem to beleive that the world's economies should jump on the 'skids' (whatever those are) to *protect* the U.S.'s one. I think I speak for the world when I say that they are most honoured to be your suicide guards.

Never mind that your view of world politics is clearly that expounded by people who beleive the U.S. won the war of 1812 (no-one did really, but US was clearly going to lose), never mind the fact that MI5 probably wouldn't be caught DEAD in the same room as MI6, let alone the fact that when morning came MI5 would be found dead if they tried to operate in Germany (they are quite strictly domestic, MI6 is foreign stuff) never mind the rather blatently supremecist comments you make with regard to an unnamed nation which is impoverished but is certainly not third world, and never was, (I would have hoped the west would have been able to quash a third world country a third our size in less than 45 years!), has the idea of morality never crossed your mind?

Just because you have been led to beleive that other countries spy on you, you beleive you should also spy on foreign companies owned by friendly allies who would probably give you directions and suggest a bar if you were a tourist? What about they're S. services? This is NOT a game of M.A.D., stopping spying will not, (I hope) actually cause the American economy to collapse into the rubble we all fear, so why should you betray?

I really am beginning to suspect I am feeding flamebait, which is a shame, as I was trying to keep this post civil. Can you give links, examples in real life that bear you out? Anyway you slice this espiionage, this is an insanely distasteful act, an intrusion, in effect, of our state in our lives (since it is/will receive retaliation), and a cowardly crossover between politics and bussiness, and a manifestation of "might makes right" (if a company can't do it, why can a government?). Not to mention unpleasantly nationalistic. So, how do you justify this morally? In short, give us links in HTML, and give us your links in reasoning!

_______________________________

Re:This is a surprise? This is bad?

[Quintus]

Firstly, thanks for your reply. In my reply, I was a good deal less civil than I had intended to be. (I'm in the EST timezone, too! ;-), and so it was a lot harsher than intended. I should definenatly apologise for my 3rd para.)

Your reply is quite interesting, especially about the source (I've also since had a chance to read the other postings about Woolseley and the journalist).

For me, what still gets to me is that the US. was spying on allies. I live in Canada (and have some European backround), whose government is marginally more friendly to the U.S. federal governments, than, ummm, the individual States, maybe? ;-), and so its a bit worrisome/irritating to hear about the U.S. government, who already dominate our gevernment in trade and even politics (grace a NAFTA), doing something to further its economic supremecy, even if they claim/are doing it just to maintain parity. (Of course, maybe you recall that CSIS, the Canadian intelligence service, got into hot water for spying on allies a while ago, so Canada's not so wonderful either.) The U.S. accidentally or on purpose throws its weight around a lot of the time already; Sometimes it really doesn't seem fair for the mice (Canada) trying to sleep with this Elephant (America). (Simile from Trudeau, a fromer PM, don;t know if you've heard of him?)

This observation of American domination forms a nice seguay into my next thought: I really wouldn't have thought that this was such a big deal for the U.S. For me, it seems largely like a matter of principle, not a matter of life and death for the world's strongest economy. The (contradicting) argument you advance about the Russians is therefore very interesting to me; I shall definately try to hunt down that book.

Still, I must say I do still think that nations in general should check their spy agencies in doing things like this; it really does seem to me to be, above all else, an innapropriate crossover between government and bussiness. Maybe this puts it in the purview of the WTO? ;-) Thus, what has really irritated me in this story has been the (large but minority) group of people saying "I'm proud that my tax dollars are going towards an effort to aid American bussiness over foreigners; keep up the good work" ;-)

In anycase, thankyou for your reply, and my apologies for the viciousness of my attack. I'm being quite interested/fascinated/honoured (given my original message) to hear your supporting case.

______________________

Re:This is a surprise? This is bad?

[Alex Belits]

The Russians admitted that the only thing that kept them on par with the Americans (and kept them from being militarily, the Third World country they were in reality) during the Cold War was economic espionage

Who said that? I am Russian, and I didn't.

(second on their 'To-Do' list only to suppressing dissidents -internal and external- Read 'The KGB Papers' for more.)

ISBN? And what is it anyway -- some piece of fiction? An article from tabloid?

the isbn=0465003109

[Ded Mike]

Full title: The Sword and the Shield: The Mitrokhin Archive and the Secret History of the KGB

Available from FatBrain at: http://www1.fatbrain.com/asp/bookinfo/bookinfo.asp ?theisbn=0465003109

From the FatBrain(TM) summary:

"-KGB's attempts to steal technological secrets from major U.S. aerospace and technology corporations. Their success seems to have inspired Chinese intelligence to do likewise."

The book is really very interesting, as Mitrokhin was an MI6-UK coup and not a US double. He was a commited Communist apparatchik who, by contact with the KGB archives (he was the chief archivist during the move from the Dzerzhinsky complex to the new SRV site outside Moscow,) became disillusioned and began to copy and smuggle out the entirety of the KGB historical archives. He stowed them in his dacha and took a train to the West and on to London, where they debriefed him for three years before they went public. The intelligence agencies in the UK _still_ haven't turned over _all_ the files to their 'cousins' in America, Canada, India, Ireland, Germany, France and Isreal, citing 'national security reasons.'

Among the most damaging revelations was that the Secretaries of the Treasury and State under Roosevelt, right before he died, were KGB/GRU 'sleepers' compromised in the '30's.

A _really_ amazing book.

Final, from the FatBrain(TM) summary:

"The Sword and the Shield is a work of great historical significance, which will fundamentally alter our understanding of Soviet history and modern international relations. For Russia's post-Soviet intelligence service, SVR, the publication of this book poses a real problem. No one who spied for Russia between 1917 and the final years of the Cold War can be sure anymore that his or her secrets are secure."

Any worries, Alex? :-p

Re:the isbn=0465003109

[Alex Belits]

Still nothing confirms that Russian/Soviet industry actually depended on stolen technology. In my experience espionage did more harm than good to it because even in the area of computers design (that in Russia was always considered to be one of the least developed) the adoption in 80's of "SM" series (DEC) and "ES" (IBM) caused the cancellation of BESM/Elbrus line (or near-cancellation -- it looks like research/design team survived in some form, but "political" decision was to adopt DEC minicomputers and IBM mainframes for mass production).

Even in that case most of things were results of hardware reverse-engineering, very common practice at that time because licensing was impossible even if both Russians and DEC/IBM wanted to.

In other areas things are even less in favor of this theory -- while examples of reverse engineering and ignoring patents/copyrights/... are abundant, most of problems in Russian industry were caused by poor organization not inferiority in research or design. Russia accomplished what few other countries did in this century (I hope, I shouldn't explain one more time that year 2000 is still 20'th century?) -- supporting a self-sufficient economy that depends neither on cheap foreign labor, nor on rich and dumb foreign consumers without causing a social disaster.

CORRECTION: Duetch, not Woolsey

[Ded Mike]

My bad! See http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/us/dailynews/d eutch000209.html) and my _sincere_ apologies to former-Dirctor Woolsey. He wasn't the guy who compromised the CIA, he almost brought it down because it 'bored' him and he wanted DoD instead. See http://www.time.com/time/magazine/archive/1995/950 109/950109.intelligence.html for more.

Ignored Aldrich Ames and was an authoritarian bureaucrat...consider the source.

Breaking it down...

[Ded Mike]

Okay...._finally_ an interesting thread.

1. HUMINT. Thread focusses on trade craft and the tools of the trade. START. The Watergate Plumbers-type tech and how far it has come (I think your 'local bug' idea would go here.

2. SIGINT. Thread focusses on tech and countermeasures. START. ???countermeasures? methods? maybe a discussion of FreeNet/Free SWAN or the advantages/disdvantages of symmetric vs. asymmetric key systems. Or maybe one-time pad encryption or key distribution systems. TEMPEST/VanEyck?

3. ELINT. Thread focusses on tech. START. ???countermeasures. differences/values between ELINT and SIGINT.

4. MSINT. Thread focusses on this _very_ new technology. START. Maybe a definition of Multi-spectral intelligence and a discussion/thread of state of the art. Or maybe the application of quantum methods. ???countermeasures??? (THAT would be interesting, nerds discussing the theoretical uses and defenses against using quantum effects to gather intelligence!)

Nice thought experiment, CRAW, thanks!

*** newsflash! ***

[MicroBerto]

Slashdot Newsflash!

The US spies on EVERYTHING.

I don't think it should be surprising when we find out that we're spying on ANY country, corporation, or entity. There are reasons to have information on everything. It's for the citizens safety. If you are a US Citizen and don't like it, leave the country. If you are not a US Citizen, be jealous that we are in control of a Hell of a lot of information, and its allowing us to weild more power and make better and more informed choices. Otherwise you die like the rest.

Mike Roberto
- roberto@soul.apk.net
-- AOL IM: MicroBerto

Bribery Ratings

[laron]

Have a look at www.transparency.org and tell me if the US or most european nations have a bigger problem with bribery! BTW.: Think that the NSA discovers a new technology at Airbus Inc. Whom will they give the tecnology to? MDD? Boeing? anybody else? To the biggest/strongest/weakest/friendliest Megaconcern?

Re:Bribery is rampant ...world -esp in US politics

[Totally Desensitized]

Look at the american system of campaign funding and lobbiests just because. Somehow corporations financing political campaigns to the tone of millions of dollars in order to get their positions on food safety, polution control which are clearly against the public interest voted for is not bribery? Oh well

Re:That's their job

[quecojones]

IIRC, it is the government's responsibility to ensure the market is *FAIR* for all interested, and not favouring to the "home boys".

You're sort of right. It's the US government's responsibility to ensure the market is fair in the US. As for ensuring that it is fair outside of the US... if you think there is any hope of ever achieving that, I have a nice bridge to sell you. :)

It is irrelevant whether other countries practice government-sponsored industrial espionage, it is against what the United States was created for.

It is irrelevant to consider what the US was created for. The US constitution included a means for it to be changed as needed. Times change. The US has to deal with it. Wether or not it has done so in the best way is the subject of another discussion.

P.S. Glad I'm not American. :)

I'm glad that you're not too. :)

q

U.S. Spies on European Corporations

[retep]

Former United States Central Intelligence Agency director James Woolsey confirmed in Washington this week that the US steals economic secrets "with espionage, with communications [intelligence], with reconnaissance satellites", and that there was now "some increased emphasis" on economic intelligence.

When asked why Europe was being spied on James Woolsey replied that it was because he had lost a poker game to a European and because of that it was completely ethical to do whatever he damn well pleased.

Ethics

[retep]

I have to ask the question, Why is it ethical to spy on someone because of a history of bribes and then go and redistribute that intellegence information if it would be convenient? I can support %95 of the operations, the news paper reading and general keeping track of everything. But IMO using espionage, communications intellegence (probably wiretapping etc.) and recon satellites is just going to far for anything that is not a direct threat to *security*, not the economy. I think both sides would do well do back off. After all tit for tat is never a good policy.

Re:That's their job

[Fesh]

This case is a little different though. Espionage is meant to deprive the "owner" of the information of any benefit that the information may have given them when it was secret. So, if the people communicating by semaphore are telling each other where they can find rare beany babies for real cheap and every beany fanatic in town happens to watch the conversation, they have been deprived of the utility of the information even if they are not deprived of the information itself. This, I think is the same argument to this analogy when dealing with the copyright thing. Yes, if the MP3 is available for free but the record company is charging for the CD, you don't deprive them of the information by downloading the MP3. However you do deprive them, slimy bastards though they are, of the utility (in other words, the money they charge for the CD) of the information. Now, I'm not making a moral judgement here, but I do feel that this argument pretty much puts a hole in the argument that an information "owner" is not deprived of anything when an unauthorized copy is made. We're gonna need stronger arguments than that if we're going to beat the stuff coming down the pipe at us (DMCA et al).

--Fesh

WRF - Exported Encryption is Sabotaged

[nlvp]

I'd heard it before, several times, but when I saw it in print, I realised that I hadn't fully appreciated the extent of the sabotage inflicted on the so-called "secure" transmission protocols exported from the States.

This bit on Workfactor Reduction Fields in the European Parliament report that was referred to in the article came as a blow - even though I knew it to be true already.

Just for my peace of mind, could a few technically competent individuals please reassure me once again about how secure my 4096-bit PGP key is please?

It's all the more interesting when you think that the valuation of all the internet stocks rely upon the continued growth of internet commerce, and that relies on people sending credit card information over the internet. I find it hard to believe that the current versions of the browsers do not have back doors built into them.

Re:Unfortunately if I have bombs I still can kill

[Uncle_Al]

I do not think so. As I understand (If Echolon exists), The NSA has the ultimate say about which data any other Agency sees.
So the Britains see only the Data they are allowed to see.

"Wie immer alle Angaben ohne Gewähr"

Re:What a waste of money!

[Uncle_Al]

How about the WWW (as HTML/HTTP; not the Internet)?
If I remember correctly Tim Berners-Lee was working in the CERN in Geneva (Switzerland) at that time?

And if I'm informed corectly he comes from the UK. So?

Spot on

[MonkeyMagic]

Thankyou, this is just about the first sensible comment on this subject.

People, you must be careful of your governments behaviour. Just shrugging your shoulders is irresponsible and symptomatic of taking democracy for granted.

Intelligence or theft of information

[reality-bytes]

To a corporation; they commit theft
To a government; they collect information.

Its a fine line but you can't sue a government as easily

Re:Intelligence or theft of information

[ATKeiper]

This is actually a very interesting point, because it brings up a third type of intelligence (which, as we shall see, isn't really intelligence at all).

First, there's economic intelligence. The U.S. intelligence community is permitted to collect economic intelligence, which includes broad economic data (labor productivit, interest rates, national debt, economic growth, trade imbalance, etc.) some of which is considered secret. This can help the U.S. prepare for economic troubles on the horizon, like a meltdown of the peso or the Asian currency crash. The U.S. government can try to avert the crisis, or use our intelligence to at least minimize the damage. Also, economic data is important in understanding other countries' political status; knowing about North Korea requires knowing that country's financial straits. Or knowing about a country's history of bribery.

Then there is industrial intelligence. This is illegal - meaning, U.S. intelligence agencies are not allowed to perform this activity. If they do, they should be prosecuted. Industrial intelligence involves finding out secrets about companies and trade negotiations and passing those secrets on to U.S. companies. This (for reasons I've addressed above) does not happen - or at least there has been no concrete evidence that it happens, and that is a reasonable standard of doubt.

The third kind, though, is the idea you raise here. Business intelligence, is information collected by spies hired by private companies. This happens lots of times - businesses hire people to go undercover and work for a competitor and report back. Supposedly, this costs companies billions of dollars each year. (But, presumably, it therefore makes billions of dollars each year for other companies.)

Since a key part of the definition of intelligence (used by the intelligence community in the U.S.) is that is must be collected and given to policymakers, neither industrial or business intelligence technically counts as "intelligence." And the CIA does neither. I'll begin to suspect them when I hear credible evidence from a company that believes its secrets have been stolen by a U.S. spy and given to a U.S. company. But we must not base our suspicions on the tenuous threads we have seen so far.

A. Keiper

How about Us owned European companies?

[rexona]

US based funds hold significant positions in many European companies. If US intelligence is producing competitive advantages for companies with their HQ in US, then this will damage the property of other US citizens who have an interest in the European companies. Even more so once the barriers of entry into foreign exchanges are lifted in a couple of years.
So is it the American jobs that count or the capital/ownership?

Re:Prove it

[hypergeek]

Oh please you mean that ecconomic prosperity in the United States is a direct result of the fact that there is some high level spying going on? Last I checked there wasn't a public web page that listed various secret information from other countries and allows each and every business in the USA to get it when and if they please. Furthermore how do you plan to have a group of European nations beat up and bully the US? Strategically that would never work.

No. The US economic prosperity is due to various factors, although being the world superpower helps.

I'm just saying that if other nations got together they might have a shot at standing up to this abusive Collossus.

I don't "plan to have a group of European nations beat up and bully the US". I just think that if they stand together they have a shot at making the US reconsider its we-are-bigger-than-you-so-we-can-do-whatever-the-h ell-we-want-mwa-ha-ha mentality.

The US gov't. (yes, I know I always rant about the US gov't., but that's because they're Eeeeeeviiiillllll) applies this mentality to other nations as well as its own citizens. Any move to challenge the invincibility of this institution would help everybody on this planet, not just people outside the US.

--

Re:Being a cynic doesn't automatically make you Ri

[MorboNixon]

This is also a pet peeve of my own. People use the expression "sorry, but it's business" to excuse any sort of method of accomplishing their goals regardless of any morals. Since when does business have to exclude any moral standards? The problem is the lowest common denominator effect, where if one company stoops to a lower level, the rest follow suit in the name of competition. The public is oblivious to this and therefore it goes unchecked. I hope that the free flow of information, the hallmark of this age, will act to turn over the "rocks" that hide the worms of business and governmental practices.

Re:WRONG IS WRONG!!!!!

[Ray Yang]

Well, I think it would be fair to say that the Intelligence community has a bias against American workers losing jobs to foreign companies. It's nice to call things "wrong," but what will happen at the end of the day if we stay away from all things "wrong?" Here's what will happen: American companies will keep on losing contracts, Americans will keep losing jobs, and American citizens will get hurt. Is that "right?" Are we to render ourselves defenseless in the face of aggression because the countermeasures are distasteful, Mr. Chamberlain?

We're not being myopic here, nor are we being xenophobic. Bad things happen to a country when companies from the outside own everything, even if the market is 'free and open.' When the people who own your country live outside of it, they don't care as much about it, somehow. This is bad for the people in your country. Somehow, I would rather the CIA spent its time protecting American jobs rather than trying to read my email.

From the economic standpoint, there's a problem with this; the problem is that when you intervene in the marketplace, you counter the factors which allow the most efficient to prevail. So the question becomes how far you go to balance out the marketplace's other unfair factors (like other nations' intelligence agencies) and how restrained you should be to keep your own companies from leaning on you like a crutch.

I find the idea of protecting our companies from bribes overseas to be a perfectly reasonable compromise between the two. Oh, and by the way, I think that this "usually no-espionage" policy is generally adhered to -- how likely is it that an intelligence official would risk their career to help out a corporation (as opposed to the perceived interests of the country)?

I've gone on too long ;-) Bye!

Anything in the last 75 years? Thought not.

[rambone]

Europe's time has passed. Its pathetic listening to the pontificating of the EU, while in their own backyard is a raging war they can't manage.

Why Europe continues to ignore the Balkan crisis is a testament to their inability to accomplish anything real.

Almost all of your industries and markets are dominated by American or Asian companies, or their subsidiaries.

Re:Anything in the last 75 years? Thought not.

[rambone]

Last time I was in the USA people still prefered a European car over both american and asian cars, esp. Volvo

Volvo is owned by Ford you bonehead.

Economic Espionage

[cybergremlin]

Well I guess the CIA and No Such Agency, etc. just had too much time on their hands after the cold war ended... Actualy many of the USA's cold war alies suposedly had a long standing tradition of spying on US corperations and using the data for their own economic or defence uses. I am suprised that the US intelegence comunity did not get in on the game sooner. There has been presure in that direction for years.

America is an economy.

[MongooseCN]

America is an economy, period. Just look at it, whats its culture or ideals that make it different? Its a mix of all other countries. The best way to define America is that its an economy.

Re:So *that's* why we've got such a good economy!

[Arcanix]

Definetly more reasonable then your first point, I actually agree with most of what you say, I was just being my friend's (Satan) advocate. Anyways, I might add that Europe is already doing exactly that, the European Union has a larger GNP and larger population than the United States. In the future I'd be more concerned with the EU when they finally get their act together.

Partnerships

[Aceticon]

I am an European.

Now that i've branded myself let's carry on.

Spying is natural. I would assume that every goverment spies.
It's a question of information - Information is power. If i spy on my neighbour, i'm getting power over him, while at the same time removing him of some of his power ( by finding out what he knows about me ). If some people do it to other people, why wouldn't goverments ( which are much more attached to power ) do it ??!

Now the next question - is the spying done on commercial subjects?

Of course it is. Let's put thing this way:

1. Spying agencies are usually shadowy things, by nature secretive, and as so, it's very dificult to know everything about them, even for very high placed officials. Their basic principle is "What you don't know you can't compromise". So, if some people inside those organisations would pass some of the collected information to external entities ( read companies ), either by misguided patriotism or simply for "monetary incentives", that would be dificult to control, even if there was a higher will to contain such "leaks".
2. The power you get from spying is just potencial power, it is uselles on itself. Plus, information loses it's potential value over time - it's much more important to know about an event before it's happened or just after it, than it is to know it 50 or 100 years later. Returning to the "spying on your neighbour" story - for instance: you know that your neighbour, every day, leaves his house at a certain hour, and return's at another hour, leaving the house empty in between. That in itself is not very usefull, but if you want to rob his house ...
3. Nowadays, with the end of the Cold War, military power has lost some of it's strength. By association, inteligence gatering of military information has also been on the decay. The real power of today is Money. Naturaly, the inteligence comunity will turn into gatering economical information, as a way of preserving their countries power ( read money ).

My position as an european?

Two things:

1. In this area european goverments are a shame. Instead of adopting a proactive stance in terms of national defense of information ( for instance with criptography ), only now are they awakening to the dim reality that some have put out there a network to trace every comunication in Europe - up to now, concrete measures are few and weak. Let's admit it - Europe has been out-smarted. ( And don't start me we the French proibition on cryptography - i'm sorry all you french guys out there, but in this matter your goverment c'est une merde ).
2. Great Britain - either you are european, or you are not - Great Britain is part of the EC, and yet they keep on trying to block changes, and keep supporting spying stations for other powers ( Echelon - please read the Interception 2000 report ). If you don't like the rest of Europe, GET OUT!!!

Re:This is not news!!!!

[ATKeiper]

You're exactly right - it is wrong, and that is why there are laws which prohibit the U.S. intelligence community from doing it. If those laws are being broken, then the people or agencies passing secrets on to businesses should be punished.

And you're quite right about multinational corporations' impressive power, and their extranational interests. In fact, that's why many of them employ spies of their own - to get a scoop on their competitors.

A. Keiper

Re:This is not news!!!!

[ATKeiper]

You're quite right, that if this information was indeed disseminated to private businesses, citizens should be vocally complaining. However, economic intelligence is inextricably linked to national security interests. If there are indeed cases of industrial intelligence (or "market intelligence," as you call it), they should be prosecuted. But (as I've written elsewhere in this thread, here and here) I suspect the claim is fallacious.

Meanwhile, on a far more important note, I spent several minutes trying to figure out your Latin .sig line. Google brought me to the Aeneid in Latin (no translation), but - get this - it also brought me to several Slashdot articles you've written. (Same with Yahoo and Find.com.) In the end, the best I could come up with was from the Perseus Project, a line about how Dido never dreamed that love like that she shared with Aeneas could ever die. Is that about right?

A.K.

Re:BULLSHIT!!!!

[No One]

>They killed one, and by mistake since the boat
>was supposed to be empty.

This makes it perfectly OK for the military to attack a civilian target?

>Of course the French could have sunken it when it
>was crusing into the French military restricted
>area, which would have been their legitimate
>right, but prefered to do it when the boat was
>empty.

And had they done so, it would have been their right. (But it still would have, and should have, caused a major international incident.) HOWEVER, they chose to commit an act of terrorism on the soil of a foreign nation.

>And for the dead guy, well, that's too bad, but
>death is a risk one must accept when violating a
>military area (especially when you do so with a
>bunch of recording equipement).

Except for the minor detail that he wasn't violating a military area when he died.

--

Re:Uh... ...OH! BOY!

[myshka]

Another disingenious attempt to whitewash America's brutal past.

Don't you want _your_ country to continue to exist? How are _your_ rights protected? By whose blood?

More often than not in the 20th century, it was local blood that was spilled to protect people's rights against American-sponsored dictatorial regimes. Chile, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Cuba, the Dominican Republic, South Vietnam, Iran, the Philippines, just to cite a few examples you always ask of others but never quite manage to produce yourself.

If Hussein gasses his own people, that's the Iraqi's business, in accordance to UN directive.
.. and then
Don't get me started......short answer: go ask a Kuwaiti survivor of the Iraqi atrocities how 'unjust' the war was...for that matter, go ask a Kurd.

Positing hypocritical double standards as the basis of one's argument is pretty weak. Why don't you go ask a Kurd about how it felt to be gassed in 1987 when Iraq was America's surest rampart against Khomeni's Iran or slaughtered by American allies in 1999, under the vigilant eye of brave American pilots patrolling the unilateraly declared no-fly zone.

Don't you wish you lived here where we are _FREE_ to sign our names and proud?

Proud to be the laughingstock of every thinking person in the world, boy?

Sugar!

[saBBath]

Can somebody say: Sugar...!

System of a Down
check the video out on antimtv.com

Re:That's their job

[sparkz]

If this weren't happening, the taxpayers should complain
Ahem, I beg your pardon?
No, the world's not such a nice place, but this is not what I pay my taxes for. This is THEFT. Industrial Espionage. There is no pretty word for it. And it is NOT the job of the American (or any other) Government.

Re:If the tables were turned ?

[sparkz]

Too right.
I'm sure European COMPANIES spy on American Co.s and vice-versa. But to have STATE spies passing on INDUSTRIAL secrets is not part of their job.
Frankly, from what little I know of most civil-service organisations, this level of cooperation seems somewhat optimistic, at best!
But if they are doing this, and he's not pressed as an ex-employee, what's somebody trying to prove?

Re:So *that's* why we've got such a good economy!

[sparkz]

Frankly, if I ran any of these European countries, you'd bet your ass that I'd immediately condemn this spying as a hostile act of aggression, and work out treaties with other nations explicitly naming any further spying as an act of war, and military alliances to give the treaties TEETH.
Unfortunately I am not in a position to say that I do run any of these Euros. However, I am a member of one (UK, to be precise). But I do immediately conden this as a host.. etc
However, declaring spying as an act of war is a bit like declaring throwing a bomb at another country as an act of war. Whether we like it or not, at any level - regional, national, continental (OT Rant:yes, I know the US sees itself as a continent AND country, but LOOK AT A GLOBE!!!), organisations are at "war" with each other. M$ and NSCP/Sun/etc are at war, US and ROTW are at war, etc. It's just varying degrees.
Whilst I'm not condoning industrial espionage between corporates, it is CERTAINLY wrong between a nation and another nations's industry.

Americans pay tax money for this?

[uebernewby]

According to the article, their primary objective is finding out whether a certain company in Europe bribes an Asian/Latin American company to get business. They're spending millions of American tax dollars on this (I would assume).

Maybe they should spend USD 300 a year on a European newspaper subscription instead. The economics pages usually will say which company bribed which Asian/Latin American government. Just last week there was a page-long article in a dutch newspaper about how Shell (the oil company) had to spend millions of dollars in bribes to get an exploration contract in Turkmenistan.

Furthermore, in a number of countries, they're about to pass regulation that will force companies to explicitly state how much money they've spent in bribes in their yearly summaries (or whatever they're called).

It seems a bit lame to me that the American government has to get the CIA to report on this

Re:Americans pay tax money for this?

[RGRistroph]

I think the point is to know about these things before the deal is closed and it's all over the newspapers.

Also, I believe the US intelligence community has many people who are assigned to a particular region or country and come to work every day to read all the newpapers from there, listen to TV and Radio news, educate themselves tecjhnically on the major economic industries, and otherwise be Johnny-know-it-all for every that has anything to do with that area.

Re:What a waste of money!

[uebernewby]

Has a single technological innovation ever appeared on European soil, in the entire history of the human race? No.

Mills. Enhanced agriculture. Printing press (ok, ok, but the Chinese kept it to themselves). Law. Rationalism. The nation state. Cars. Flight. Rockets.

Without the United States to leech off, those barbarians would still be fighting with swords.

Gunpowder (China, yes, but they used it for fireworks only. Europeans were smarter).

Lastly:

America.

Isn't that kinda irrelevant?

[Stary]

Interesting for sure, yes... But I thought we were talking European countries being the "victims" here? I don't care if China has alot of bribes everywhere, that isn't a legitimate reason for the US to spy on European countries.

Re:Fuck you American Pig

[Stary]

Oh... so what you're saying is that bribery is only okay if done (in public view) for high officials with lots of money from big companies, but it's not cultural?

Great.

Really, thats... nice.

I don't know many other countries where companies have openly bought their own laws just like that...

Also, looking at your 1) we could also say people hate MS just for being successfull, and I could use that argument to knock down whatever you may say. There are alot of things I like about America, and alot of things I dislike. Saying that all the things I dislike are just because the US is successful is just plain stupid, unless you plan to back it up with something more tan that.

Gooooood morning Vie^H^H^HAmerica!

[Stary]

it's astounding to me that you could even construe what i said to imply what you *assume* i said.

That's called sarcasm. I was trying to point out that the US is the best place to look if you wanna find out how bribes can be allowed in public, on a grand scale.

on your second point, if you don't believe that every single country in europe or asia hasn't got a case of the bribery blues, i really suggest you visit there and try to start a business.

Here's another american thing I've seen alot, the assumtion that everyone is an american too. I dont need to visit, I live in Europe thank you very much.

every chinese immigrant i met in college bought their way out of china. EVERY SINGLE ONE. i have first hand experience with business in europe, and i can guarantee you there are many laws formed through the veil of nationalism that are simply based on bribery.

When did china relocate into Europe? Stop talking about china, the US was spying on european countries. Want me to spell that?

every time you propagate another myth that every american is a bigoted, greedy bastard, puts you right back into the most dangerous of situations. ignorant stereotyping. haven't we learned that this isn't really a wise move by now?

I haven't said anything at all about all americans.. actually I've just pointed out that american companies are buying laws and politicans pretty much out in the open. Did you bother to read my post?

Now listen:
Please do not call me an idiot for saying that China is not in Europe. Please do not back up a claim about European countries with examples from China. Thank you.

Why Spying is O.k. but the NSA is wrong...

[Seb Rabit]

The NSA and Echelon were set up as post war Signals Intlegence. It's an Anglophone alliance, with listening posts in Canada, the USA, the UK, and Australia. GCHQ (the British NSA) and the NSA work together at Menwith Hill in Yorkshire where the European intelignce is collected. The point is that it is ILLEGAL under the terms of the agreement to do what the NSA is doing, handing on the information. It may surprise you to know that GCHQ officers work at the US's coresponding base. But, as GCHQ is more acuontable, US commercial secrets are not passed on to British Competetors. I find it total unacceptable that the NSA should be doing this using OUR equipment on OUR land.

Military/industrial/Corporate/Ecconomic Espionage

[Markar]

are all intertwined together. The Miliatary wants to know what the capabilities of the enemy (and ally) are. For instance building a missile requires propellant fuel, a guidance system, and a warhead. It would behove the Military to know the accuracy of the guidance system. Guidance systems require microchips. therefore the spy guys keep an eye on the microchip industry of other nations. When the military has a question about intelligence it has gathered on a new microchip (several samples would be best), they ask experts what the potontial of the chip could be. The experts they go to for advice could be industry leaders of their own country. If the design is new then they may learn something about chip design from information that they can use. If it is not something new they can assess how long it will take to reach State-of-Art and how much it would cost to acheive the design. The Military would also be interested in potential production rates of a particular item. These would be based upon resources, logistics, machine/tool capabilities and capacities etc; as well as the ecconomic state of the country in general (to know how much taxes can be squeezed out of the populace for defense.) Anyway a government's Military wants to know advancements corporations and industries are making for their potential in military uses. In doing so some of this intelligence gets passed along to a countries own corporations and industries. This ait't new, it ain't gonna stop!

Russian technology in P6 & Merced/Itanium?

[DABANSHEE]

well you maybe right, it turns out that Intel bought out some ex Elbrus Engineers, who were behing some of the innovations in the P6 & Merced cores.

Re:Right on! Tell it like it is!

[optimisanthrope]

I wouldn't have replied to someone so unhindered by the most common knowledge if it weren't for the fact that 'The Hague' is the name YOU anglo-saxon self-conceived asses haven given yourselves to a town actually called 'Den Haag', meaning the forest, which is a way more legitimate name then the stolen names the perfidious yanx are using for most of THEIR ugly cities

Perfidious Albion Strikes Again

[optimisanthrope]

Reading these comments I feel joyously reinforced in my position as an optimistic misanthrope. It's always best to focus your distaste on something that's certain to solve itself by dissolving.

Anywayz, I feel the openly treacherous ways of the descendents of perfidious Albion's waste to be a blessing in disguise. Betraying their friends and allies, and getting more and more addicted to orgies of self-congratulating nationalism, they will help us all to get ready to rid the world of these money-obsessed primitives. The best way to counter barbarians is to give them bombs. QED

Luckily, by their egocentric focus on their own non-culture, it's always possible to bypass the Anglo-Saxon thought-police:
Cetero censeo Americanam esse delendam

Secrets?

[effer]

This is no surprise. Electronics are one of the easiest storage mediums to observe and capture info (privacy issues are a different thing, but will be tied to this I'm sure). I don't feel that anyone can and should expect privacy and security of data using the internet, cellular phone tech, and even copper tech (POTS). There is always such a cry when the Government or major business exploits a flaw in technology, yet a successful "crack" or "hack" is revered. This isn't meant to be "flamebait", just a comment on hypocracy.

If they can easily spy on corporations...

[eric434]

If they can easily spy on multinational corporations for the benefit of American
corporations, how much do you bet that they are spying on other
"economic dissedents" hampering the success of other corporations...
Namely, whoever those corporations don't like. And since the MPAA, Microsoft,
and other major /. enemies are BIG multinational corporations, I'll bet privacy among
us open-sorcerers, anti-WTO'ers, DeCSS distributers, and the occaisional Anachist
is compromised whenever they feel like it. If you really think that Uncle Sam won't
give Mr. Gates a hand in economics just because of a little antitrust trial...

is this really a suprise?

[celestial13]

"We have spied on that in the past. I hope ... that the United States government continues to spy on bribery." why is the united states so concerned with the morals and ethics of other countries when our own country is in a pretty low state of mind. lets try to get our welfare and medicare programs improved before we pay 007 to give us unside information if the queen of england is getting a little *something* for the key to the castle. "European companies had a "national culture" of bribery..." we have a national culture of rape and suicide. does that mean we should throw everyone who has said "im going to kill myself" in a looney bin or arrest perverts and right-hand reliant, sexually deprived males? or does this mean we should all buy alot of cool surveilance equipment and start private eye buisnesses in our garages?

Re:What a waste of money!

[Ram-Bo]

Think hard. How would the US be created if the european wouldn't have discovered it? I'm not european but you need to lay off the patriotism and think with your brain a little. If they wouldn't have shipped people here there would probably be some natives sitting where your house stands, smoking grass or something. Stop posting flamebaits

Re:Unfortunately if I have bombs I still can kill

[gibbonboy]

The path that surveillance data takes is labyrinthine at best, who collects the data sees the data first, then decides who else gets it. NSA only has say over intel collected by US-operated systems. So it works in all directions, show-me-yours; I'll show-you-mine fashion.

Re:Right on! Tell it like it is!

[maznaz]

If they'd had a woman in charge back in Sir Francis Drake's time, we'd all be speaking French now! Perish the thought.
I appreciate the humour in this but given the "quality" of reponses /. is generating lately I wonder how many others do?
--

Re:Your exaggerated claims are laughable.

[maznaz]

I see you've been to Liverpool then
--

Re:What a waste of money!

[RoyalTS]

I really hope all this was a joke, in case it is not, I have to say some things in response to it: Why does our current government not speak out about Europe's crimes against humanity? Of course European countries have committed horrible crimes. The difference is that children are being taught about them in school to learn from mistakes maken in the past. You won't hear a lot about the crimes against native Americans or Blacks here in the US... When you've got homosexuals running around everywhere, apparently unleashed, it's a problem. When you've got socialists scattered everywhere you look, it's a problem. What the hell is wrong with that. Hello, we live in a democratic system, both Europeans and Americans and as far as I know the US constitution doesn't prohibit being gay and if I interpret the First amendment which says "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech" it is OK to be socialist, too. Their laughable adherence to the "metric" system is another offense. Yeah, I hate the metric system, too, it's so ... complicated: 10 mm = 1 cm , 100 cm = 1m , 1000 m = 1 km. In comparison the American system seems so much easier: 12 in = 1 f , 3 f = 1 yd , 1760 yd = 1 mi When you've got church attendance declining and strict adherence to fundamental Christian principles nowhere to be found, it's no wonder that Europe is in such bad shape! This is precisely why America leads the world; we've got Christ leading us! Right, and English is God's language! Sorry I have to quote Marx, THE Communist, now: "Religion is the sign of the oppressed creature, th sentiment of a heartless world, and the soul of a soulless condition. It is the opium of the people." You're right about nothing good ever having come out of Europe. Right, it was not a European that invented the car, one of the leading rocket scientists that worked on the Apollo programm wasn't European either, the one that invented printing must have been American and your ancestors were natives....

Re:Hah

[RoyalTS]

Amen

Re:What a waste of money!

[RoyalTS]

Leibnitz = German

Re:Let me get this straight

[RoyalTS]

ex-fucking-actly!

How big of a surprise is this?

[nysus]

Aren't most governments just tools of the monied interests working to maintain the status quo in order to safeguard their power? Just think of all the bribery---er, lobbying---it took for American corporations to get the government to do their dirty work for them.

Re:So? Europeans have been doing this for years

[philinacoma]

It's one thing to use this on countries that have the money to fight back, another to use it on us smaller countries. A little collateral damadge?

Bribery....

[mosch]

Just a note, bribery is illegal, however there is nothing illegal about making a 'facilitating payment'. The difference being that you're not allowed to make a facilitating payment for something to which you're not legally entitled. However, there is nothing at all illegal about making a 'facilitating payment' to customs officials or what not to get through customs in a 3rd world country expediently.
----------------------------

Re:Military/industrial/Corporate/Ecconomic Espiona

[Alex Belits]

Military wants to know advancements corporations and industries are making for their potential in military uses. In doing so some of this intelligence gets passed along to a countries own corporations and industries.

And what is the justification for that? Why government won't keep information from companies just like it keeps it from its citizens? If country's defense was the reason, the primary concern would be to avoid a possibility of disclosure to keep sources of information being useful in the future. In the hands of company information will be more likely to be traced back to actual act of espionage because company's actions attract enough attention to make foreign governments suspicious. Therefore in the end government risks its sources of useful for defense information to allow company to make more money -- am I the only person here who thinks that it's very wrong order of priorities?

Re:That's their job -- NOT

[Alex Belits]

Incidentally, this is what makes me laugh at those "Keep Trade with China Open" commercials. I'm not sure if anyone else in the USA has seen them, but they're really funny. They imply that keeping trade with China open will "make China play by the rules" and "expose China to our democratic values." It's a riot.

See above about embargo -- Chinese government steals technology for products that can't be legally imported anyway, and competes with american companies in other areas. US steals what can be bought everywhere, but "national pride" doesn't allow to keep american companies beaten by those inferior Europeans and Asians.

Re:That's their job -- NOT

[Danse]

Chinese government steals technology for products that can't be legally imported anyway, and competes with american companies in other areas.

The fact is, not all countries play by the same set of rules. This pretty much makes for a free-for-all kind of environment in which each side seeks an advantage over the other through any means available to them. In some countries this means that they exploit people, especially children, as dirt-cheap labor. In others, a lot of bribery and blackmail takes place. In the US, we have some pretty good intelligence agencies that turn over the fruits of their spy-games and that's how some American companies compete with their foreign counterparts. I don't like it, but I don't currently see any way around it either.

That's their job

[Wyatt Earp]

That is something I feel *is* a good use of American tax dollars. It's not theft...not anymore than DeCSS is theft.

American companies are staffed by American taxpayers, and IMHO using the US Intellegence system to run both counter-intel and intel gathering operations against foreign governments that are doing the same to the US isn't wrong, it's the right thing to do.

Re:That's their job

[0xdeadbeef]

Dude, go back and read my post, and pay particular attention to the three adjectives that I used to qualify "law".

Remember that a great many forgeigners do business and own property in the United States. And remember that a great many Americans do business and own property in foriegn nations. That's commerce, and you can't have it without stable laws (local laws, and adherance to international treaties). No one wants to do business in nations where governments can come in and steal your trade secrets, or nationalize your property, or have their way with your secretaries, or whatever.
This has probably hurt American commercial interets, because even though it might help Boing or GM or whoever recieves these secrets, Joe Schmo Medium Business has now just had his foriegn relationships strained a little more. Why should you do business with Americans, when it invites your company to espionage?

Imagine if tomorrow France nationalized every American owned property on French soil. It's absurd, but no more than your example. What would you say then? "It's their law, they can do what they want."?

Re:That's their job

[debrain]

No, the world's not such a nice place, but this is not what I pay my taxes for. This is THEFT. Industrial Espionage. There is no pretty word for it. And it is NOT the job of the American (or any other) Government.

It is in the nation's best interests to make sure that foreign money goes into buying American dollars, particularly of the billion dollar range. Said protection of national interests includes industrial espionage. Consider it something like the NSA paying for itself, indirectly. Look at incentives here.

There is normative and positive; the normative here is that this exists and it cannot be any other way in this system. Positively it would be different, but that's an impossibility right now. Incentives are not in making the most people happy.

Re:That's their job

[speek]

Believing that an "American" corporation's interests are the same as your interests, or the interests of American taxpayers is even more naive and delusional than believing that the American government's interests are the same as the interests of the American taxpayers.

Re:That's their job

[Kinthelt]

It is in the nation's best interests to make sure that foreign money goes into buying American dollars

Wasn't the US based upon the concept of a free market and capitalism? I fail to see how a government interfering in companies' affairs contributes to a free market.

IIRC, it is the government's responsibility to ensure the market is *FAIR* for all interested, and not favouring to the "home boys".

Although I hesitate to use it, I have to resort to an age-old cliché: "If all your friends jumped off a bridge, would yout too?" It is irrelevant whether other countries practice government-sponsored industrial espionage, it is against what the United States was created for.

It's hypocritical to the maximus :)

P.S. Glad I'm not American. :)

Re:That's their job

[Sanity]

The point here (at least the point for me) is that the UK has been collaborating with the US in this against its European neighbours. Although those on the right in the UK might hope to be closer to the US than to the more left-wing EU, this does not excuse this Judas behaviour.

--

Re:That's their job

[Detritus]

This is THEFT. Industrial Espionage.

I have to disagree. If someone broadcasts sensitive information and it gets intercepted, I wouldn't call that theft. If the information is sensitive, it should be encrypted and/or routed over hard line. Although the cellular telephone and satellite TV industries would disagree with me, I believe that everyone has the right to receive, demodulate and decrypt any radio frequency signal that passes through their airspace. All digital phones (GSM, TDMA, CDMA) should be using strong encryption to protect the privacy of the user.

Re:That's their job

[0xdeadbeef]

Oh, so because the world isn't a nice place, we should violate our own rules? I suppose I should be able to steal secrets from a corporate competitor, because it's in my company's best interests. I mean, why should we obey the law, be it our law, foreign law, or international law, when our government can break it, and claim moral superiority for doing it?

I suppose you think the people who steal American secrets for foriegn interests have the moral high ground too. They're acting in the best interests of their chosen nation.

Re:That's their job

[garver]

we should violate our own rules?

Are you implying that the laws the US government sets for its citizens apply when dealing with foreign countries? What color is the sky in your world?

The laws of a country apply only on that country's soil. If you break them, that country prosecutes you by their laws. Simple. And who says a country shouldn't be able to break laws if it is willing to accept the penalties when caught? I break the law every day, speeding to work, and am willing to pay the ticket when caught.

Espionage is a part of the world we live in, unless every country suddenly and voluntarily gives it up. Otherwise, if you want to compete, you gotta do it. Imagine if around 1960, the US had given up all of its nukes, leaving the USSR with the nuclear advantage, simply because nukes were bad.

Re:That's their job

[Detritus]

So, by analogy, if you're so lax as to leave your bike unsecured, I should be entitled to steal it?

No, the bicycle is a physical object and stealing it would deprive you of its use.

What if you live on top of a hill overlooking a town. Phone service being too expensive, you use semaphore flags to communicate with your friend who lives in the town. Should it be illegal for other townspeople to look at the top of the hill? Or maybe we should ban telescopes and binoculars?

Americans: Don't support the regime.

[Frater 219]

You don't have to support the Democrat/Republican regime, you know. The opposition parties in America at present are weak but growing. If you, CiXeL, and those who agree with you join the opposition, it will become strong enough to change America's political reality.

There are several opposition parties, of which the most well-known are the Libertarians, the the Reform Party, the the Greens, and the Socialists. I myself am a Libertarian, but I would rather that you vote for any opposition party rather than voting for the regime (Democrat or Republican) or not voting at all.

Some Americans feel that it is "throwing their vote away" to vote for a candidate who is not likely to win -- and instead vote for the "lesser of two evils" among the Democrat and Republican. The problem with this is that, as you point out, the Dems and Reps really are not very different! Because of this, a vote for either a Democrat or Republican is basically a vote for their combined regime -- which, if you don't support the regime, is worse than throwing your vote away. Voting for even the tiniest of opposition parties, in contrast, registers your opposition to the Dem/Rep regime, and brings us closer to a real political debate in this country -- even if your candidate doesn't win this time.

Americans, please help bring real issues, real debate, and real differences back to our nation's political process. Give up on the Democrat/Republican regime. Vote for the opposition.

Re:So *that's* why we've got such a good economy!

[acb]

In the future I'd be more concerned with the EU when they finally get their act together.

Which, given the differences between Eurostates the EU's culture of glacial bureaucracy, and the culture of huge, inefficient socialist institutions predominant on the continent. will probably be when Hell freezes over.

Vichy and the French participation in WWII

[LizardKing]

Ironically, you failed to mention the only episode when French troops actually engaged American troops, that is, the invasion of North Africa in 1942

The US and Britain also sank a large part of the French fleet anchored in Algeria to stop it falling into German hands. This created serious resentment of the Allies in France at the time - compounded by careless Allied bombing of targets in France which resulted in civilian deaths.

In fact, several thousand French troops fought on the side of the Germans as members of the SS. This is rarely recorded for several reasons. The French are very embarassed about their role in WWII (French museums have exhibitions on the resistance and liberation - but ignore the massive collabaration with the occupying German forces). The men who fought in the SS are virtually all dead, having been handed over to the Free French forces by the US Army who they had surrendered to. When a French general asked why the men were wearing German uniforms, one responded asking why the general was wearing a US uniform. Consequently they were shot.

It is estimated that 250,000 people died in France as a consequence of the purge (which was largely rooted in guilt brought on by French collabaration). It should come as no surprise that the most vociferous condemnation of collabarators came from those suspected of it themselves. It is also a sad fact that those who received the worst treatment were women suspected of sleeping with German troops, while others saw it as a great opportunity to settle old scores. Meanwhile, most if not all of those responsible for colluding in things like the rounding up of Jews for liquidation went unpunished. Many became important in political life later, especially under the Gaulist administration.

It appears that German army orders to treat the French populace with respect paid off - the resistance was a tiny and ineffectual, while collabaration was endemic. As many historians and contemporary French people observed, few of those who claimed to be members of the resistance really were.

It all goes to show that no side is free of guilt when it comes to acts of inhumaity during wartime. The victors simply benefit from their ability to write history how they see fit. Occasional glimpses of a more unclouded past are provided by declassification of documents, but many will never see the light of day having been destroyed or indefinitely restricted.

Chris Wareham

Pot calling kettle black ?

[Taco Cowboy]

Ahhhh...

Not so long ago, there were lots of furor of how the French, the Chinese, the Ruskies, the Isrealis and everybody and their cousins of the entire world were spying on the United States.

Ahhhh...

Now it is revealed that the POT who was making so much loud calls against all those kettles is him/her/itself not so angelic after all.

Ahhhh...

Who says this world isn't fun?

Nice logic there

[A nonymous Coward]

Let's see.... The rape pillage and plunder laws of a country apply only on that country's soil.

Is that what you are saying? Does this mean it's ok for our govt to rape pillage and plunder as long as they do it in foreign countries? (and of ocurse don't get caught)

I thought rule of law meant laws applied equally. Obviously they don't in the real world, but it's never been advocated quite so openly since Richard Nixon.

Now if you had said that US laws allow spying overseas, you might have a consistent argument. But you are saying it's ok to break our own laws, as long as we do it overseas.

--

Why spy?

[Software Cowboy]

There are a lot of people posting here that don't understand the spy game. First, most intelligence is gathered through plain old human interaction, e.g., getting someone to talk, stealing things, etc. Encryption isn't likely to slow these types of activities down, so stop thinking it is a magic amulet that protects you against bad guys.

Second, spying is an important aspect of international affairs. The more you know, the better decisions you make. Many of the people posting here would rather have less information on which to base decisions because spying is "bad." I prefer that we have the information available to us so that we have the opportunity to make good decisions (not that we always will).

Third, everyone really is doing it. The French, in particular, have been extremely aggressive with economic spying both against the US and their other allies. I doubt that US efforts are even close to their's or China's. If you think we don't have fairly complete intelligence files on the British or anyone else, you're not very bright. They definitely have them on us.

Fourth, we often spy on industrial targets to understand production rates, output, planned growth, etc. It helps us understand what the other countries long term strategies are. The information that is passed along would most likely be used to help our industries (that are considered critical to our economy) remain competitive.

So, while it isn't exactly glamorous and exciting, it is an important part of the overall intelligence picture that we need to have. And, while it may seem unfair, it is in fact the only way to level the playing field since most other nations' intelligence agencies consider us hopelessly naive because we don't normally concentrate on economic intelligence and they do.

I recommend anyone seriously interested read Sun Tzu's remarks on spying. He grokked it.

On 'data collection' and espionage...

[RobM]

Hi. Let me introduce myself: I'm 29, male, and European. Italian, to be exact (more on this later).

I've read a lot of the messages here, almost all written by american people. It seems to me that many of you missed a little fact about this little fuss:

1- It's about Echelon, and almost all information gathered is open, so it's not like espionage.

Yeah, right. It's WORSE. Think of data mining applied to everyday conversation. You can pick up secrets the people telling them don't know themselves. You say it's ok because these are all public data? I think that this is worse than Orwell's 1984 world: at least there you knew thye were listening.

2- American companies don't need to spy on Europeans ones

Americans companies do have a lot of knowledge in many areas, they have the lead in a lot of businesses, sometimes even if they doesn't deserve this (think Microsoft :). However there are many other fields in wich US companies are behind European or Japanese ones, or just about on par: don't you think that even knowing little data on your competitor (how many faxes he exchanged with your potential customer, or with strategic partners, for example) would be a decisive advantage?

3- Bribery is endemic to Europe

Pull your brakes, please! I do know bribery is quite common, especially in some countries (mine, for example...) but usually you don't get very far with it in the big contract area, unless you also sell a very good product: unless your're a state employed decision maker put there because you're the nephew (sp?) of some big politician, and your briber wants to grant you a workplace after, you don't go very far: someone tried (Lockheed, Agusta) and got jailed (or worse, shot itself for the shame - of being caught, I presume ;).

The "we only do this againts bribery" excuse is just that, an excuse to do other things, exactly like UCITA and DMCA are not to protect IP rights, but to get more of YOUR money. Ask yourself which is the difference between lobbying some senator and bribing someone to buy your stuff.

And now, *grand finale* (aka UTTER FANTAPOLITIC MODE ON)

How to ruin a flourishing country
Imagine you have a 'friendly' country with a very good economic momentum. They have strong companies, good technology and *a lot of money*. Much of this success is due to they products winning greatly in the american market, where they are pervceeived as superior to the others and yet cheaper. With all this money, they start buying a lot of things (companies, buildings, paintings...) abroad and in the US in particular. Now, misteriously, this country starts to be hit by political scandals, their new investments in other countries go wrong, and after a while some big banks go bankrupt, leaving a lot of people and companies 'in it to their collars'. How can this happen? Very easily: just spyon the chats between local politicians, listen to the strategic investment plans the industries and financial corporations, move yourself well to 'aid' their competitor in the country were it hurts most, and finally banks and the whole economy will collapse, eventually with a big crush that country is big enough. And all this only listening to almost public data, the ones that go over telephones, faxes, telex and the net, that are the media by which businesses communicate.

Obvously, all this is pure speculation, and all and every resemblance with real world fact are pure coincidence.

Ciaooooo...
Rob!

We Americans don't like looking at mirrors

[FreeUser]

Perhaps many US slashdotter hate the French, because they look too much like yourselves.

You have hit the nail precisely on the head.

I often hear my fellow Americans disparagingly comment about France's absurd levels of nationalism while happy to proclaim their own patriotism to this country with their next breath. It is rather clear to nearly anyone who has spend any significant time in both France and the US that the level of nationalism, or "patriotism" if you will, is very similar in both countries.

Indeed, the similarities in how the French view their military, their industry, and take pride in their country and culture, and how citizens of the United States do the same, is quite startling.

Perhaps it is our very similarities that cause so many people in one nation to dislike the other, even though their dislike is based soley on rumor and innuendo, and either the most superficial of personal experiences (e.g. "the garcon was impolite to me, f*cking rude French!"), or, more commonly, absolutely no personal experience at all.

After all, it is a rare human being indeed who can have a mirror held up to themselves, look at their flaws, and feel grateful for having them pointed out. Far more common is the irrational desire to smash the mirror and use the shards to carve up the offensive individual who had the audacity to point out that one's own culture and society is not only imperfect, but in many ways actively malignant both to themselves and the rest of humanity.

And how easily we forget the rude waiter in Chicago or New York, yet relish and relive the memory of the rude garcon in Paris years later.

Re:Politic spying != economic spying

[Detritus]

Industrial espionage has been a top priority of the KGB/GRU/FSB since World War II. I've seen counter-intelligence reports that say it now gets more resources than ever before. China also places a heavy emphasis on industrial espionage.

Re:Hah

[Detritus]

There is a federal law against American corporations bribing foreign officials. The company I work for gives annual business ethics briefings to all of its employees and they are told that bribery is unethical, illegal and a cause for immediate dismissal.

It's fine and good to expect something more ...

[FallLine]

It's fine and good to expect something more from the US, but atleast be apprised as to the facts.

Undeniable fact of the matter is that most of our foreign competitors are FAR worse offenders. What you have to realize is that most foreign companies are run ENTIRELY different than the US. We, the United States, operate heavily on a market based system, where market valuation is the measure of success. Not true in almost every other country here, they operate on different systems. In Germany, for example, the board of directors wil commonly be comprised of bankers, unions, psuedo-government officials, and many other interests. The result of this creates a system where government plays a much much larger role. The two are very much intertwined. Furthermore, all this this results is much more static leadership. Meaning, that leadership is much more cozier with one another, and the government; if for no other reason then they've been in bed with each other since day one.

This is not true with the US. With the exception of certain government contractors (e.g., Hughes, Boeing, etc), the government is very much hands off. Leadership, though far from perfect, is far more dynamic. If you don't perform, you're going to get fired. If the board sucks, it's very likely they'll get taken over. All this, in turn, dramatically changes the relationship with other corporations and government.

The point of all this is not that US corporations are perfect, far from it. US corporations have their own very significant flaws, but let's not confuse the issues here. The corporate culture is very different, and consequently, the use and demand of such intelligence has got to be far lesser. For example, I would find it very hard to believe that a company such as J&J (not a large military government contractor) would be in bed with the CIA/NSA. Not true with many other similar large foreign corporations; there are thousands of documented cases of espionage. There is direct government interest in success of particular firms.

Though I can see the CIA supplying, say, Hughes with military/aerospace designs or knowledge, to insure that they have a fighting chance, I would very much differentiate the (the likes of Hughes and the likes of J&J and the thousands of other corporations). There is a much more direct government interest here. The government has a relatively direct interest in seeing that these aerospace firms are at the top of their game. Even though they're not directly government entities, such firms are responsible for building most warplanes, subs, etc. Given that, you can be sure, other nations' intelligence agencies are working against them, I think the CIA/NSA must do so in this case. (Not only is their a defense interest here, but they must level the playing field as foreign states are working directly against them)

That being said, I wouldn't be too suprised if some abuse of this occurred. Such as Boeing's civilian aircraft division profiting from intelligence work done for military purposes (though not actual military intelligence).

The bottom line: The US may abuse its intelligence facilities to some degree, but it's hardly pervasive. It is far far more common in other countries (e.g., France, Israel, Germany), whether or not your average slashdotter realizes it. I get tired of everyone jumping all over such things, when every country but the US has been known to do this for decades. Why haven't I seen similar outrage against France and company, before this?....

Re:Its Duncan Cambell again

[Mindwarp]

Duncan Campbell is obviously a pseudonym used by the cartel of secret-agent-men who are REALLY running the world. They're just spreading disinformation through this 'Duncan Campbell' invention to distract us from the REAL story; That William Gates III is the evil overlord who dictates our every move, and is actually merely a pawn of the small grey aliens that live at the Martian poles and shoot down our helpless little landers.

Enough of this. I'm going back to my bong now...

--

Re:What a waste of money!

[the eric conspiracy]

Mills.

Try Africa (Egypt)

Enhanced agriculture.

Asia. Particularly the valley of the Tigris and Euphrates

Printing press (ok, ok, but the Chinese kept it to themselves).

you answer yourself

Law.

code of Hammurabi - Asia

Rationalism.

Roots are in Egypt, which was the primary source for the works of Thales.

The nation state.

Sumeria.

Cars.

ok you got one right

Flight.

Which? Heavier than air was developed in US and Australia. A lot of people think it is likely that hot air ballons were used in India and China long before Europe.

Rockets.

what do you think Chinese fireworks are?

Re:What a waste of money!

[Score Whore]

And Europe was settled from Africa. So what. If you want to draw a line in history and say this is where it all started you'd better realize that the line can be draw at 1776 just as easily as it can be drawn at 1000 BC.

Its Duncan Cambell again

[Paul Johnson]

Why is it that every time I see something on Echelon its by Duncan Cambell? Is he really the only journalist interested in this?

I would have thought that these remarks are important enough to have been reported by someone else. There are supposed to have been enough journalists at the press conference.

Can anyone find anything on this subject which is not written by or based entirely upon the writings of Duncan Cambell?

Paul.

Re:What a waste of money!

[iCEBaLM]

Mills. Enhanced agriculture. Printing press (ok, ok, but the Chinese kept it to themselves). Law. Rationalism. The nation state. Cars. Flight. Rockets.

You forgot: Clones, IP over Power Grid, audio casettes, museums, the telescope, democracy, and metal knives.

-- iCEBaLM

This post has been stripped...

[loom]

This post used to contain a lot of information about bribery to get higher moderation points on slashdot comments, but since the american gouvernement definitly has nothing better to do, it has just removed all the bribery information that was contained in this message. Here below is what is left after the original message was stripped :

Gosh ... I'm ... proud ... to be ... an ... americans !

NSA at Microsoft

[CentrX]

I submitted an article (declined) a while ago regarding a French intelligence report that National Security Agency agents had installed monitoring software, "secret programs," in Microsoft software. Another good reason to keep stuff open-source, turn a blind eye for this to ever happen with Linux...

Chris Hagar

Re:That's their job -- NOT

[wowbagger]

(BTW, I wonder why US doesn't just elect companies for Congress and President -- they are "persons" under american laws that have "rights".)

Either you aren't a US citizen, or you slept through your Civics classes. A corporation is a "legal person", but they do not have all the "rights" a real person has. In the law, a corporation can sign contracts, own property, and perform a few other acts that only a "person" can perform, but a corporation cannot receive Social Security when it turns 65, it cannot vote, it cannot run for office (nor can it donate money directly to canditate ("hard money") in excess of $1000), etc.

This is an often misquoted part of American law, and I would suggest that you actually do some research before publicly expressing an opinion.

My take on this

[Tau Zero]

I'm so damn tired of this "if you dont like it move somewhere else" attitude. What if you find something you really dont like with your country? Would you shut up and just move without a word? Or would you complain about it?

This is a dead-accurate rebuttal to the "leave it" crowd, and I wish I could claim credit for it:

My country, right or wrong.
When right, to keep it right.
When wrong, to make it right.
--

Unfortunately if I have bombs I still can kill you

[slashdot-terminal]

You can be as smart as you want to but if I still have the bombs I can take out your country any time I like and all the Shakespeare and math will not save you.
More to the point I do not completely think that the Europeans don't do a little espionage on our turf. Considering that the NSA uses people in Britian to spy on us I would think that they use a little of that "data" to aid themselves whenever they can.

Not really

[slashdot-terminal]

If you think about it if say a groups can conduct communications in a secure method that means that a country can quite easily force another to use brute force and grisly methods to get what they want when they could have just as easily decrypted the message.

Re:Not really

[TheCarp]

Well... simple interception of data and decryption
is a fairly passive act...very hard to catch an
easedropper sitting on the wire (unless you use
physical fiber and quantum encryption...but thats
fairly impractical)

If they can't decrypt it...then any other
techniques become increasingly more invasive and
likely to be caught.

Course...there is always simple bribary. Not much
in the way of secrets you couldn't get...all ya
have to do is throw enough money at the problem.
(of course...they have plenty of that)

And nothing was done?

[slashdot-terminal]

Why would the people that the French shifted not say do a little revenge move and make them pay? Perhaps sanctions?

Re:And nothing was done?

[rambone]

Why would the people that the French shifted not say do a little revenge move and make them pay?

Because we all know we're all spying on each other, but we're simply hush about it.

This is why the Russians don't raise too big of a stink when they catch an American spy in Moscow, and vice-versa in the United States - both sides know they are spying on each other, so making a big fuss over it typically doesn't happen.

Bribery really is a bad thing.

[slashdot-terminal]

Well let's look at this in detail.
I am a government contractor working on a weapons system or perhaps something that I want to do for another country. Now suppose that for some reason say the Chinese or the Germans seem to be absolutely much better (read giving a little something under the table to the people involved to make the outcome better). Now this costs my company billions and so I get mad and have a little talk with the State Department and a few other people. Now magnify this several times and you understand why the US has wanted to take decisive action against this. Personally if my standard of living and my ability to be secure in the world is made better than I don't really mind too much. You can call me biased if you want but I am sure if you talk to the French, English, Spanish, Germans, Finns, (insert European country here) you will find that and the end of the say what really matters is being comfortable.

Prove it

[slashdot-terminal]

Oh please you mean that ecconomic prosperity in the United States is a direct result of the fact that there is some high level spying going on? Last I checked there wasn't a public web page that listed various secret information from other countries and allows each and every business in the USA to get it when and if they please.
Furthermore how do you plan to have a group of European nations beat up and bully the US? Strategically that would never work.

Re:OT: Talking to moderators

[Johnath]

:) Actually I agree wholeheartedly, in fact, I've noticed an even more irritating trend (and this is coming from someone who actually *does* moderate, and I'd like to think I do it concientiously) which I've exploited here half-intentionally:

Any time someone bitches about how their post is going to be marked down as flamebait/troll, it (almost instantly) garners two or three additional +1's. I mean, I'm all for being counter culture, but moderators, c'mon. No we shouldn't kill stories that knock linux (for example) just on principle, but we should also not boost up crap for no reason other than to prove the poster wrong.

Woolsey: Consider the source!

[Ded Mike]

More info here: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/archive/1995/950 109/950109.intelligence.html Any wonder why he has it in for his old agency?

BULLSHIT!!!!

[Ded Mike]

French state intelligence bugged the headrests of Air France airliners (and sunk the Rainbow Warrior, the flagship of GreenPeace in the South Pacific, killing two anti-nuclear activists). The UK and Germany, as well as Canada, Australia, Japan, South Africa, and India have all had members of their foreign intelligence services 'invited to leave' the United States after their efforts to suborn US high tech
workers and government bureaucrats have been compromised by the FBI, and CIA counter-intelligence.

We are only returning the favors done to us by our erstwhile 'allies!'

Spying is undesirable, inevitable but preventable

[porttikivi]

Spying is a form of agressive politics, like war is. We don't just accept the fact that a country with bigger guns can wage a war against smaller countries. We should not accept espionage by the superpower as inevitable.

Espionage like war sometimes happens, and sometimes some people feel it is the right thing to do. But we should try to set up means and rules for freedom and privacy, as much as is possible.

Luckily spying is relatively easy to prevent with modern cryptographic methods. We just need to keep them free. I hope these news make the rest of EU countries understand this. Governments here in Scandinavia already take it for granted that everybody has the right to use/buy/sell whatever privacy tools they want to.

A court of law may try to force a suspect to open up secret data in a criminal case, but only after a legal process.

Re:mainstream

[Tuxedo Mask]

That's right! What's more, is CNN and MSNBC have yet to say word *one* regarding the nefarious deeds of the Trilateral Commission!! (to say nothing of the Rosicrucians!) Astounding, isn't it?

BULLSHIT goes round & round & round ...

[Gis_Sat_Hack]

IIRC one of the factors that led the young lad in "The Falcon & the Snowman" US spy case to sell on US secrets to the Russians was reading the CIA material on how they were helping to subvert the then Govt. in Australia, then, as now, one of the US's "erstwhile 'allies'".

Strong Encryption

[Bob(TM)]

Another reason why the US opposes strong encryption exports. It's not in the best interest of economic espionage to make it easy to have routine trade secret information encrypted -- it would make it too hard to steal.

get a clue please...

[dms0]

okay
1. only a few days ago.. everyone on here was up in arms about the US government possibly invading the rights of its citzens, the second its done to overseas companies in the name of 'competition' there are far to many people on here who suddenly think its a great idea. do you really think US companies play by a different set of rules?

2. to americans who dislike europeans, just remeber where your ancestral lines spread from.. a large percentage of you will descend from europe. perhaps you should consider your family history back more than 2 generations before making rash sterotypical arguments.

3. if you still belive your government has your rights and opinons in mind when it makes it decisions, if you still belive that multinational companies actually care about what you think, perhaps you should have taken the red pill? hmm? next time your government makes a decisionor awards a contract,look a little closer.. who provides the funding for your senators campaigns?

the world sucks.. get used to it

dms0

-= we need to redifne the enemy =-

Re:So *that's* why we've got such a good economy!

[hypergeek]

"So you are advocating another World War and millions of casualties because some French company no longer has a secret anymore and loses a few hundred thousand francs in profit?"

No, I'm advocating a show of force. The US as a political entity may be childish and aggressive, but it is neither as blind nor as stupid as it looks.

"Many have pointed this out before, and I'll point it out again. European agencies routinely spy on American companies, especially the French, who do it quite blantantly."

While that may be so, France is not the most powerful nation in the world, and hasn't been ever since a certain dimminutive Emperor was defeated.

The U.S., on the other hand, is the most powerful nation in the world. We've got power, but also the duty to use that power responsibly.

We could be setting a shining example of ethical government that the world could look up to, but instead we have, in essence, chosen to tell the world that anything goes, as long as you can get away with it.

The idea of banding together for protection against a powerful bully is neither "sensationalistic" nor "ridiculous". It's what any self-respecting nation would do.

--

Prisoners dilemma

[luckykaa]

There will always be somebody trying to screw us. We should always do whatever we can to screw others before they screw us.

Well, this is yet another incidence of the prisoners dilemma isn't it. (For those who aren't familiar with this, its explained here )

The most succesful solution to the iterated version has been shown to be tit-for-tat. i.e cooperate first, and then if you lose, do what the other player did last time. So if a country can agree with its allies that they shouldn't spy on each other, and they can each prove that they aren't, both countries win. The worst case is that the one that cooperated will be disadvantaged once. Unfortunately the stakes are a lot higher in this case, and nobody wants to risk losing the first time.

Re:So *that's* why we've got such a good economy!

[Arcanix]

"On a more serious note, I think it's high time that people realized once and for all that U.S. spying is NOT to combat "terrorism" or whatnot, and realize that the privacy of hundreds of millions of people is being routinely violated."

I don't care how much you try to make these agencies seem like faceless and evil entities, real people work hard to try and make the US safe from terrorism. Obviously not all of their activities are used to track terrorism, but your statement is still a ludicrous exaggeration.

"Frankly, if I ran any of these European countries, you'd bet your ass that I'd immediately condemn this spying as a hostile act of aggression, and work out treaties with other nations explicitly naming any further spying as an act of war, and military alliances to give the treaties TEETH."

So you are advocating another World War and millions of casualties because some French company no longer has a secret anymore and loses a few hundred thousand francs in profit?

Many have pointed this out before, and I'll point it out again. European agencies routinely spy on American companies, especially the French, who do it quite blantantly.

Your post is totally sensationalistic and completely ridiculous.

Now that's a true American...

[Stary]

The goverments of most other countrys are corrupt beyond even the wildest imagination [...]

How naive... you think the US government is less corrupt? Even after all this recent bs about DMCA and UCITA and allllll that? Sorry, now, I'll be back in a few days when I've finished laughing.

Politic spying != economic spying

[HandyFrog]

Normally thought, spying was done on political grounds. economical ground was typically limited to industrial spying and not commandited by government themselves. And frankly the US is pretty arrogant to tell other countries what to do, especially when they show imaturity to handle their own problem. A frenchie living in the US.

Re:a national culture of BULLSHIT and IGNORANT PRI

[RoyalTS]

WOW, here we go again, the US as THE moralistic nation thinks it has the obligation to punish other nations for their sins, and I would bet that the people that made the decision to for example sell Comanche (how ironic) helicopters to Turkey to help those guys kill some Kurs are exactly as ignorant as you are! Where did you get those infos? Rape not being a crime in Europe. What the hell are you talking about? I like the US very much, but it is those ignorant people as you that people in foreign countries hate so much and that I am so sick of. But I guess one of those guys will become president in November... Cheers George W Bush!

Re:That's their job -- NOT

[Alex Belits]

If this weren't happening, the taxpayers should complain. How would it look if the director of the CIA had to tell a congressional commitee "Yes, we had the information that would have saved Boeing/General Motors/Lockheed but we couldn't pass it on because it was commercial"?

It's against taxpayers' interest to support Boeing, General Motors or Lockheed -- every case where those companies lost their share in their markts increases the competition there thus making economy more healthy (or, less sick). US is not in war with any of the countries involved, they actually are allies in NATO, so there is no defense-related justification either

Re:That's their job -- NOT

[Alex Belits]

Oh. And this really stopped the US's NATO allies from spying on it during the Cold War for the same reasons, didn't it?

"it" -- what? US? NATO? Allies? job?

Face it, the US is playing by the exact same set of rules as everyone else, and happens to be no better or no worse, and speaks from no higher and no lower a moral standpoint. If the US wasn't doing this, US companies would be torn to pieces by companies from countries that did do this, and vice versa.

Other governments do industrial espionage for "their" companies? That's news to me. Governments constantly do military espionage and extend it to military-meaningful technologies for themselves (say, nuclear technology that is usually controlled by government, not companies), and they do industrial espionage when subjected to embargo for some kinds of non-military technology (this can be justified because they can't just buy products from abroad), but providing this kind of "service" to companies is something where civilized countries draw the line.

(BTW, I wonder why US doesn't just elect companies for Congress and President -- they are "persons" under american laws that have "rights".)

So unless there's an ENFORCABLE end put to this for everyone SIMULTANEOUSLY, I don't see this stopping anytime soon.

Loss of credibility is enough to replace "enforcement" -- and it looks like just that can happen if US won't revise its "we rule the world, and our companies are above everything" policy. Fear, uncertainty and doubt work both ways.

Re:What a waste of money!

[the eric conspiracy]

How would the US be created if the european wouldn't have discovered it?

Give me a fscking break. America had been settled for 15,000 years by Asians before the Europeans arrived.

The first thing the Europeans did on arriving is export genocide, and wipe out native civilizations. Their explorers (DeSoto, Pizarro, etc.) were in fact just a bunch of butchering theives.

Re:Get your history right ...

[McFarlane]

British/Canadian incursions?!?

Ummm, I believe you're referring to the war of 1812.
If you will check any reliable source you'd quickly discover that it was America that invaded the Canadian colonies at that time. That was our "war of independence". Independence from America. If the white house got burned down it was hardly an "incursion" if the burning-down-type-people were trying to stop their homeland being wiped off the map by said Americans.

Also, re: French-speakers in the southern U.S. - They are the remnants of French settlement and (forced re-settlement (of the Acadians)) long pre-dating the United States. Nothing to do with French fighting a (as yet non-existent U.S.) America later acquired that territory through the Louisiana Purchase. (hint: no fighting French people involved)

Re:This is not news!!!!

[Malcontent]

Using taxpayers money to spy and then passing that informations on to private corporations is wrong.

Multinational companies owe no alliegance to the US they have shown over and over that they are willing to screw over the american citizens and go chase cheaper slave labor overseas. They have their own money to spend. Hell most multinationals have a greater GNP then a lot of nations.

So? Europeans have been doing this for years

[rambone]

This type of espionage has been going on for years, starting with the passing of secrets to military contractors on both sides of the iron curtain.

The French in particular are notorious for carrying on these types of operations.

Hah

[cyber-vandal]

Of course American corporations would never stoop to bribery, or buying politicians and of course due to their high code of ethics and morals, the government needs to help these good people out.

Get your history right ...

[LizardKing]

France has fought against the US - remember that in certain parts of the Southern United States people still speak a dialect based on French. French troops also fought against the US in the disputed regions of Mexico and Texas.

French Canadians may also have fought against the US. My knowledge of the history of Canada is hazier than that of the US, so I can only recall the Canadian/British incursions into the US (which famously resulted in the burning of the Whitehouse).

Regardless, your inference that CIA spying is acceptable simply because the US has been at war with those countries in the distant past - what kind of justification is that? You sound like a George Bush Jr voter to me. This kind of xenophobic bullshit is redolent of the 1920's when the US retreated into isolationaism, leaving the League of Nations without a very important member state ...

This narrow view that US interests both economically and politically should take precedence over all else is dangerous. The often partisan nature of US foreign policy has resulted in tragedies like the bombing of US embassies by Islamic extremists. Unless the US adopts a more ethical worldview it is going to become a pariah nation. An economy based on espionage (and you want to look at US national debt before making assumptions about how strong it currently is) will not result in long term security. The globalisation of economics, and incredible amount of US econimic concerns that are foreign owned means that the US is only viable as long as it doesn't alienate foreign capital. Upsetting entities like the European Union, India and Russia will not help.

Many in the US like to scoff at the notion that countries like India and Russia are threats to US economic security - but in the long term these countries have more economic potential than the US. They may be 'late starters', but they can avoid the teething troubles of older high-tech economies like those in the US and UK. If they begin to realise their economic potential then the US is going to become marginalised ... something that regularily threatens to happen in the UK as well. The xenophobic jingoism of US politicians is readily apparent in the right wing of UK politics - and it's clear that nationalist bullshit ("save the pound", "no to Europe") is just short-term attempts to win political power at the expense of long-term economic stability.


Chris Wareham

Hear Hear -- hold business and gov't accountable

[philg]

"A corporation is not a human being, I'm not trying to hold it to an ethical standard, I just have no respect for that kind of business"

Corporations are held to be equivalent to human beings in the eyes of the law -- why can't we hold them to an ethical standard?

There are two corrupt entities at work here -- the government that did this (yay, American democracy) and the companies who have received this intelligence willingly (yay, capitalism). Moreover, consider that the companies, having received this intelligence, reward the politicians who administer government with huge campaign contributions.

IMO, anyone who really wants to see this stopped has a few things they really, really need to do:

• Show your displeasure with the stranglehold big business has on us. Buy locally, even if it is more expensive (assuming you can afford it). We can't boycott large corporations -- they're too pervasive. We can make holes in their profitability, though.
• Vote. Vote. Vote. Vote.
• Seriously re-evaluate the political parties and politicians most in bed with these people. That means considering casting your vote for third parties. Only kooks inhabit third parties? Consider that more reasonable candidates will come along if non-traditional parties seem more viable. (Besides, have you noticed how many kooks there are in the two major parties?)

The parties in power have shown that their contributors are more important to them than angry constituents, unless the angry constituents compose a voting block they can't neutralize with money. We can change that, but only by performing our duties as citizens to keep government honest.

phil

The righteousness of it all...

[costas]

I am not surprised by the fact that the US intelligence agencies perform industrial espionage. What appals me is the self-congratulating excuse that the US has to do it because European companies are not good enough to win contracts on their own merits, so they have to stoop to bribery.

I am European... I've worked and lived in the US. I've also lived and worked in Europe. I've been close enough to billion-dollar contracts to have an idea what's going on. For anyone to claim that somehow US corporations are the keepers of corporate morality in the international marketplace is ridiculous...

So, does anybody out there remember what the term "Banana Republic" actually meant before it became a clothing store? Does anyone remember what the greatful Saudis did after the end of the Gulf War? Mayhaps they went ahead and bought a buncha F-15s? didn't they also let Boeing have a huge contract of airliners for the state-owned airline?

Now, I ain't saying that somehow American companies are better or worse than British, French or Dutch ones; but to claim that they are indeed so much so more moral as to justify these actions (regardless of the fact that really everybody does it) is absurd.


engineers never lie; we just approximate the truth.

This is not news!!!!

[ATKeiper]

This is being blown all out of proportion! I can't stand all the irrational spy-bashing that's been going on lately. Intelligence collection is not evil, but America's anti-secret, anti-disagreement attitude (combined with, of course, the real history of abuses by the intelligence community) has made us all lose sight of the incredible importance of intelligence collection.

Collecting economic intelligence is completely understandable - after all, economic crises are an incredible threat to the U.S. Collecting economic intelligence makes perfect sense; it can help us prepare for and manage economic catastrophe long before it happens.

Keep in mind that most of the information is OSINT (open source intelligence), and not intelligence obtained by spying. To quote the article: "Whether economic or military, most US intelligence data came from open sources, [Woolsey] said. But 'five percent is essentially secrets that we steal. We steal secrets with espionage, with communications, with reconnaissance satellites.'

The five percent he's talking about is the five percent of intelligence collected overall.

Let's get this straight: industrial espionage is illegal, and it does not happen. A huge part of the reason it is forbidden is that since business is international now, half the time you think you're helping an "American" business, you're actually helping a business abroad.

Illegal industrial espionage is produced for private businesses, but legal economic espionage is for policymakers. There are reasons of practice and politics and law and ethics that prohibit the U.S. from committing industrial espionge.

Meanwhile industrial espionage is committed by other countries - including Russia, China, France and Japan.

And, in case you're wondering, the Economic Espionage Act of 1996 makes industrial espionage against U.S. companies illegal. It used to be illegal in some states, but now the theft of trade secrets is illegal throughout the U.S.

A. Keiper
The Center for the Study of Technology and Society

Re:This is not news!!!!

[ATKeiper]

The X-Files are over, so I can get back to Slashdot. Ah, how I love Sundays.

First of all, others here on /. have been saying (as you and I both did) that many countries are involved in industrial espionage. This is true, and here's a 1998 report from the National Counterintelligence Center that lists some of the countries that perform industrial or economic espionage here in the U.S.

Second, under U.S. law, no member of the U.S. intelligence community is permitted to pass secrets on to private businesses. That is not allowed. If it is happening, it must (by law) be stopped, and the people doing it must (by law) be punished.

Now, let's take a moment to consider the sources. First, the person quoted in the article is former DCI James Woolsey. He left the CIA after two years on the job (1993-95), which were remarkable because they demonstrated huge clashes with Congress - and the worst spy scandal in recent history, the Aldrich Ames case, which he completely mishandled. I think it would not be too difficult to say he's not the best source for revelations. His time away from the job have probably led him to be imprecise with words, and he likely said things he didn't quite mean.

Second, who is the other source? The author of the article is Duncan Campbell, the man responsible - almost singlehandedly - for creating the furore over Echelon. He authored a few of the reports about Echelon, and seems to have something against the practice of collecting intelligence. He seems to enjoy fanning the flames of paranoia of the intelligence community, and sowing the seeds of discord between the U.S. and Europe. That is why, when you read the article we're discussing, he conflates and confuses economic and industrial espionage, two things which should be kept separate, and stresses Woolsey's remarks about Europe.

In fact, the only line in the entire article where Woolsey says anything controversial - that the U.S. commits industrial espionage - is brief and offhand, and it sounds more like a confused ramble than a straightforward, direct admission: "Would [...] somebody do a technological analysis of something from a friendly country, which had no importance, other than a commercial use, and then let it sit on the shelf because it couldn't be given to the American company? I think that would be a misuse of the [intelligence] community's resources. I don't think it would be done."

Finally, how is the intelligence community supposed to defend itself? They say they don't commit industrial espionage, but their critics will not accept that, nor any other level of assurance.

A. Keiper

That's their job

[chazR]

In most nations, intelligence organisations see it as their duty to act in the best interests of their nation.

So if the NSA/CIA/whoever use intelligence information to help US corporations, why does everybody get self-righteous? If the successor to the KGB was doing this nobody would be surprised. I am sure that MOSSAD pass commercial information on to Israeli companies. The French make no secret of their intelligence forces doing it. I would be surprised if information from GCHQ never makes it's way into British company's hands.

If this weren't happening, the taxpayers should complain. How would it look if the director of the CIA had to tell a congressional commitee "Yes, we had the information that would have saved Boeing/General Motors/Lockheed but we couldn't pass it on because it was commercial"?

Stop believing that the world is a nice place, and grow up.

Being a cynic doesn't automatically make you Right

[Johnath]

Moderators: My apologies, I'm not trying to start a flame war, but the fact that I get irate about this might influence my writing style. Try not to damage me too thoroughly. :)

It's charming, it really is, that whenever a story like this comes out, dozens of self-proclaimed realists will fire off these "It happens, grow up people" posts, as though they are the grizzled old men in Heinlein books and CIA Movies that have seen all the corruption of the world and absorbed it all into their overpowering intellect.

My take, and I openly acknowledge that it may be mine alone, is that looking for ethical behaviour in government is not utterly naive. Or moreover, that if it truly is, then our situation is a sad one, because I do not want to be represented by these people. Still, let's say for a moment that this corruption in government is inevitable, and that furthermore, the democratic process as it now stands has so much inertia that it will just plow on ahead, despite transgressions, I have another question:

Why do the companies accept this? Is that what American business is about? Are these companies so hopelessly unoriginal that they need to profit from the spoils of the intelligence war? A corporation is not a human being, I'm not trying to hold it to an ethical standard, I just have no respect for that kind of business. And it saddens me to see how pathetic american industry has become.

My apologies for the rant. It's cathartic for me, I guess. :)

Johnath

So *that's* why we've got such a good economy!

[hypergeek]

I find it disturbing however, that all this electronic espionage is being used for the sole benefit of the upper, shall we say, Echelon of society...

On a more serious note, I think it's high time that people realized once and for all that U.S. spying is NOT to combat "terrorism" or whatnot, and realize that the privacy of hundreds of millions of people is being routinely violated.

Millions of people, both in the US and abroad, should be screaming for universal encryption, instead of complacently fearing "terrorism", or whatever flavor of the week the mainstream media shove down their throats.

Frankly, if I ran any of these European countries, you'd bet your ass that I'd immediately condemn this spying as a hostile act of aggression, and work out treaties with other nations explicitly naming any further spying as an act of war, and military alliances to give the treaties TEETH.

But then again, the US is the BAMF of all nations, so it'll probably have its way, just like it always does.

It's only a matter of time till the US stops being the policeman of the world, and starts being the police state of the world.

--

mainstream

[myshka]

Nothing on CNN, nothing on MSNBC. And so millions of shee^H^H^H^Hvoters will go on with their patriotic lives believing in the high ideals of American benevolence and the free market.

Quite sad indeed.

WRONG IS WRONG!!!!!

[Quintus]

What this comes down to is the clear opinion in the American espionage establishment that might makes right, and if they're not American owned they can roast, friendly or no.

This is naturally a stance I and many others find offensive. What does it matter open info. vs. espionage, you've still got a bunch of unpleasant gov't intelligence types running around considering ways to aid American companies over British|French|Canadian|Japanese|S'African|Austral ian|Venezualan|etc. ones.

The idea of this being largely about "bribery" strikes me as the thinnest zenophobic screen, an attempt to post-rationalize cowardly behaviour in the eyes of the public by making unprovable and unfair assertions about the relative merits of other cultures. Even if its true, if bribery went, tomorrow, would they stop spying tomorrow?

The ultimate intent of the community, as evidenced by the question about a tech. breakthrough, is to aid Americans over the scary "Europeans". This disugusts me. Such a myopic, zenophobic, shallow, argument should disgust everyone.

BTW, I can't defend France, but can anyone completely defend the actions of the U.S. (or anywhere 100% of the time) in its foreign policy? America is *good*, but not perfect, and probably not that much better than most other democracies. The same goes for bribery, I suppose we're going to ignore the American Tobacco Lobby for the time being, and quite how one of its members got itself involved in Tobacco racketeering in Canada? Or, perhaps our blind eye would be better used on the campaign trail? Or in the officer schools? Or in the plethora of QUANGOs associated w/ defence? Or with the fact that defence bidding, despite being open to at least Cdn companies, was (when Cdn. co.s were big enough to matter) cleverly tilted towards american bussiness, etc etc.

I could enumerate an even greater number of good things the U.S. has done, but I'm not going too. (This post is too long and too politically dodgy already. ;-)

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