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Red Hat Takes Heat Over Certification
EdA wrote in to tell us about this piece, where Red Hat takes heat for its certification process. From the article - "I'm no more of a fan of Microsoft than the next person, but I can say that the support we get from Microsoft is superior, and less expensive," Daher said. "Microsoft always comes to our door, they bring demo units, keep us in touch with their engineers, and certification for our people costs only $2000 each, on-site. Red Hat wants $5,000 a person and we have to fly our people to Durham, [N.C.]."
Where can one find more information about this? I checked the web page and couldn't find anything about a "free" web-based multiple choice test. Is there a URL you can point us to? Thanks.
Try buying a GW or Dell machine through a corporate or home user account w/o MS software and OS installed, and get back to me.
Gaaaah, another sheep. I, for one, have never bought one of those proprietary pieces of consumer crap. If you can put together two Lego bricks nine times in ten tries, you can build a computer.
If you still choose to buy a GW/Compaq/whatever, you deserve windows...
Doctors are not certified, they are licensed. Big difference. /pbz
I am CEO for the very same company and I would like to see you in my office immediately.
More like 4-5000.
MS 2000$ for service calls ~ 3000$ per seat for MSWin2K Advanced Server (with Exchange, IIS, yada yada yada). RH 5000$ for "certification" OS is free. Uhmm does this dufus know that "Red Hat" is sort of like Unix and that there's lots of free documentation, O'Reilly Books etc that will be all his "key people" will ever need. If his "key people" can't learn how to admin without MS's dog and pony show then he should stick with MS and shut the fuck up. He should get web site that actually resolves to something meaningful.
Student 1: "Call Red Hat!"
Student 2: "Ask for warez on #linux!"
Student 3: "Recompile the kernel!"
Student 4: "Post a question to Ask Slashdot!"
Red Hat Instuctor: "No, you install Windows 2000!"
---
Definitely worth $5000.
Remember, it's difficult to act intelligently when working with a brain-dead OS. When you have to reboot after changing display res Nope. Anything post Win95A (i.e. OSR2) can change res/depth without a reboot - even 95A can handle a res. change without a change in colour depth. or changing the DNS server A reboot is required to change from DHCP to Static addressing, but not to change the DNS server addy. In point of fact, a lot of stuff in NT that says it requires a reboot does not - it just assumes you are dumb & don't know how to stop/start a service. or anything, wouldn't you reboot for just about anything? That's the second most reason I'm getting out of MS (& Novell) work Just as well, you don't seem to know how to operate them . The first is that I'm tired of telling customers, "I'm sorry, that's because it's an MS product," and "I agree, MS Office and Win9x *should* work better together, but they don't."
Finally, a point I largely agree with. The 9x OSs are a pain in the bum in many respects but if you are going to criticize them then for god's sake get your facts straight. It's embarassing reading rubbish like this, it's not the way to win arguments.
"What if we don't train them... and they stay?"
Well $2000 for an MCSE or $5000 for a red hat? For a while I was doing a lot of the technical interviews for the consulting company I workk for and the $2000 MCSE were not worth the paper the certificates they were printed on. Most "MCSE" I interview were nothing but paper MCSE, no experience, no practical knowledge of how NT works. Q: Well mr MCSE, how many times have you loaded an NT box from the ground up? A: none or once or twice if I was lucky.
Of course MS is cheaper, since you pay roughly 2000$ for WinNT and more $$ for additional licenses. They don't make a living out of supporting their products, they make a living by selling them. If you have somebody that offers to teach you something he does, he would certainly charge you more to enable you to do his job, than he would if he simply did the job. This is basically the same issue. Support is not pivotal for Microsoft, but is the main revenue for Redhat. DaweNull mailto://david@sinistersystems.com
unless you put those machines together yourself, you probably paid for 2 ms os licenses even if you dont use 1 of them
I guess some people may see it as being needed, but personally I think its nothing more than a piece of paper you pay a few thousand bucks for.
If I want that expensive of a piece of paper, I would get a University degree.
On the bright side, it helps bring Linux to more widespread acceptance.
I find the most interesting part of the article that the business owner didn't want to pay his employees what they are worth. Or his other choice is to not pay for training for his employees.
I find it interesting that employeers have no problem paying themselvies what they are worth but never want to pay their employees what they are worth.
Surely there is some way to provide training, improve employees skills and not take away from the company.
But when you responded in this thread, you cancelled that moderation (and any other moderations you did).
Yes, heart surgeons are certified - it's called 'medical school'. They may of course be licensed as well. Many musicians are certified - it's called 'music school'. Classical music students have a formal course of study, a set of exams, post-graduate work and so on - all of this counts as certification as far as I can see. Sure, not all musicans are certified in this way, but many are, just check out your local orchestra. As many composers have had formal music training, this counts as certification. Certification is not opposed to creativity. One needs skill with a toolset before one can be usefully creative with it. My 5 year old is 'creative' with her drawings, but her skill levels are low and I don't expect her work to be hanging in the Tate any day soon. Clearly 'certification' is not a pre-requisite for greatness. However, like any form of education, it means the student does not have to invent the whole field of study for themselves, and can work on taking it forward. Where would we be without education? Not one in a million of us could invent reading or mathematics by themselves.
ten times as many maintenance people?
/. because I have nothing else to do right now.
Typical MS bashing from someone who's never even seen a DOS prompt. I'm one of the two system admins for our company (27 branches between Canada and America.) Every machine runs Windows 95, or 98, unless you count the server at the head office here, which runs NT 4.0. Neither of us are MS certified, but things are pretty slow and easy nonetheless. I'm actually spending time on
(I do run Linuxes on one of my home systems, but it's more of a hobby for me.)
(RedHat and Caldera on my old machine, PhatLinux on my main PC.)
The FoF only described MS as a monopoly in desktop OS's.
Try buying a GW or Dell machine through a corporate or home user account w/o MS software and OS installed, and get back to me.
=td=
You should have capitalized "how".
Certification is meaningless for creative tasks. Certification works when someone's job requires them to do the same thing over and over and over again. People certified to know MS Word. A doctor certified to do heart surgery. A contractor certified to build block walls. In thse cases, certification means something. You'll never see a certified song composer and similarly, you'll never see a certified programmer or network admin, because these jobs require creativity or dealing with the new and unexpected.
the moderation will have been cancelled as soon as you posted to the same discussion (according to the FAQ). idiot.
You have won first prize in contest. You get a week's vacation in Durham. Second prize is two week's vacation.
Check http://www.redhat.com/apps/co mmunity/linux_assoc.html and you will see that Red Hat supports the LPI. Check http://www.lpi.org/a-advisory.html and you will see that Red Hat has a representative on the Advisory Council. Red Hat is not currently listed by LPI as a Sponsor on their web site, but that seems like nitpicking. Certainly Red Hat wouldn't waste time or money placing someone on the Advisory Council of a program they don't "support."
The RHCE was in planning long before the LPI got started. I know, because I was party to some of the very early talks about the RHCE and Red Hat's consulting partners program, back around 1997 or so. This is not a matter of Red Hat trying to "bully" the rest of the community, it is simply the continuation of a process that had been in the works for a long time.
Whether or not Red Hat chooses to continue offering the RHCE or merge it into the LPIC process is pretty much up to Red Hat. They have invested a significant amount of resources in developing their own program, and it makes very little sense - especially to a publically-traded company - to just completely drop what they were doing for the sake of adopting LPIC.
If Red Hat wants to continue offering their own program, it is certainly their prerogative to do so. But it seems pretty clear to me that Red Hat is also interested in what the rest of the community thinks about more general and less Red Hat-specific certification.
This is reminiscent of the bogus "Red Hat doesn't support the LSB" arguments that were flying here about a month ago. Whether or not you speak for one of Red Hat's competitors, it makes your point look a lot more solid if you do a bit of basic research first.
Let me tell you a story. Once upon a time there was an independant online service named Compuserve. Compuserve was the biggest online service in the world and made many mistakes out of arrogance. However, one of the causes leading to their downfall was so simple as to be preposterous. It seemed that there was an operating system company that wished to compete with them at providing people with information. At the same time this OS Co. wished to start their online service they were bringing out a new OS. Now, to connect to the internet with this operating system required a thing called a winsock. In the beta of this operating system it was noticed and properly reported to the developer that their new implementation of the winsock didn't play well with the version needed to use Compuserve's software. The OS went through some revisions and was released. The funny part was that their online service software was included in the OS, but the winsock was still incompatible. Would have been easy to fix. Compuserve took a hit but the biggest laugh was that the OS company could have come come out much better PR wise if they had fixed the problem since their service was the colossal flop known as MSN. And they helped create one of their biggest nightmares the MegaISP known as AOL.
> And Red Hat is a fine case. They "invent" this certification and expect it to be as valid as a MCSE.
And MS "invents" this certification called MCSE and expects it to be valid.
It works both ways, dumbass.
I stopped adminning a few years back. Being responsible for a Lotus Notes server running on NT, I've actually sacrificed small animals before upgrading the machine to a newer service pack (okay, I hit that squirrel by accident, but it WAS the same day).....
Running a Linux machine at home reminds me of my Electronics days. You may have to get out ALL the schematics and pore over them for hours, but when you find the problem, you KNOW what went wrong and how to fix it.....
First off, you should edit what you post because my father who cant hardly speak english makes better sense than you.. and thanks for calling me a moron.. I hope you feel real proud knowing you accomplished absolutely nothing.. anyways now for my rebuttal, BANYAN HAD DIRECTORY SERVICES FIRST (StreetTalk in case anyone remembers).. Novell took that idea and improved upon it (NetWare 4.0 released around 94 or so).. m$ took the idea from novell which took it from banyan.. cept m$'s version is PURE SHIT.. its unstable as fuck.. dont believe me? well check it out for yourself... I have in my MCSE class.. all the instructors make fun of it... so basically m$ decided to take a few steps back with it hoping that people like yourself would be dumb enough to buy into marketing.. which they are right.. 'You can fool some people sometime, but you cant fool all the people all the time' -Bob Marley
Actually you can go to Red Hat, and for $800 take the 6 hour RHCE exam. Or $2500 for the week long classs; 4 days of education and 6 hour exam on Friday. That's what I did. I'm not sure what you get for $5000.
I'm certified by Novell, Microsoft, Compaq, HP and even Banyan. Still, most of the work I do is UNIX-related. None of my employers or clients has ever asked or cared whether I possess any UNIX certification.
The only UNIX certification that matters is whether I can do the tasks they want or not. If I can't, my bio will be extremely short on successes in past UNIX projects.
My guess is that the only bosses who really want to see UNIX-related certs are sufficiently clueless that you might not want to work for them anyway. Especially if they only want to fork over 60K/year. You can only get a trained monkey or a paper-only (i.e. no real experience) MCSE for that kind of dough around here.
Many /.ers won't like this, but there is also a chance of getting BSD certified now: http://www.BSDI.COM/products/training/
I'd settle for a Slashdot account - I go through the procedure - and it's just like the old adventure game - wave rod and *nothing happens*
Well, aren't you a fucking genius!
Comment should be Score:1 +Insightful
But then the article is full of errors. Wrong Prices and doesnt include all class costs.
-Anon because our moderators seem to be slacking
Well I have both now as of today. There is no question that you cannot be a paper-RHCE as you can with an MCSE. If you pass the exam(all parts) I would feel confident that the person could be a RedHat Linux sysadmin. The price for the RH300 class and exam is $2498 and if you register an official copy of RH6.1 you will get $150 off. So I have no clue as to how he got the price. There might be a couple of things that RedHat could do better (better promotional items :) - but the quality of the instruction is top notch. Also I wish they had more support programs specifically for RHCE's (priority FTP access for the life of your cert, etc). IMHO RedHat's training is invaluable and you if you go to N.C. you can see RedHat up close and the people who work there are extremely friendly and helpful. Find that at Microsoft.
Well, this AC works for the Evil Empire (tm), and I can assure you that the previous poster is in all likelihood not perfectly informed. We are making sure that not only do we return all calls by our Support Program participators, but we also make sure that we follow up within a given time limit.
"So then, would you describe your understanding as perpendicular or just skewed?"
So then, would you describe your understanding as perpindicular or just skew?
or maybe not.
You zealots can't refute this... It's not a complaint against Linux, it's a complaint against RHAT.
>A week or two of training isn't going to get you >any more knowledge than reading a good book training != certification >>certification gives our business more legitimacy >Not with knowledgable customers - or knowledgable >potential employees. A customer usually doesn't conduct in-depth interviews with the contractor's employees. It is not feasible. The certification _does_ lend the contractor some credibility.
You don't hire folks because the have certification? Certainly you meant that you would not hire folks _just_ because they were certified
MicroStandard Distributors, in Redmond, Wash., is at www.microstandard.com.
Huh. MicroStandard and Microsoft are both in Redmond, WA. Shouldn't be too hard to provide on-site service, then.
I'm in Durham, NC. I can get service right here in town. Neat!
There are no Microsoft certifications in either the MCSE or MCSD track that do not require a test. I'm sure you can get a _certificate_ after taking a course, but that is not the same as being _certified_. Also, the certification only costs $100 (the cost of taking the test)
The MCSE is worthless. A certain TV station here in town (Columbus OH, and it isn't the NBC or CBS station) want's some of their engineering staff to get their MCSE's. They offered them a $100 bonus if they did and offered to pay for the tests if they passed.
You can't moderate a disscution after posting, and you can post to it after you moderated....
;-)
so.... he is lying
This same article was on Linuxtoday over the weekend. Heres what I thought....again :) Was this meant to be a put-on or is this for real. If you try to go to www.microstandard.com it will take you to a site called www.citylinq.com. Pinging www.microstandard.com gets "no response". A whois of www.microstandard.com returns 2 dns servers, ns.citylinq.com and ns2.eli.net. A Netcraft search of www.microstandard.com, www.citylinq.com, ns.citylinq.com, and ns2.eli.net returns no info as to what operating system they are on. A search on Google for microstandard.com shows several websites such as www.msdi.com, www.microstandardusa.com and some web store fronts on Yahoo. A Netcraft search of www.msdi.com returns the info that this site is running on MS IIS/4.0 on NT4.0 or Windows 98. A Netcraft search on www.microstandardusa.com returns no info. Whois points this site as a part of the Yahoo store fronts. A search of products with Linux as a subject on microstandardusa.com returns one item, a D-link network card. I found no search engine on msdi.com and no references to Linux. This site basically links to the other site for products sales. The guy named "Daher" complains of poor support from RedHat because they don't come to his door to train his employees for certification and Microsoft does. Microsoft looks pretty good by what this guy says until you look at the bottom of the page for the location of his business. Yep, you guessed it, Redmond Washington. Must be darn difficult to get support from across town. (or closer) Everyone has the right to complain but this guy looks an awful lot like he is in the other camp to me. Why would he need RedHat support since nothing on any of his websites show any indication he supports Linux or Open Source in any form at all. Lets see if I got this guys thinking down. I'm RedHat, and I should send some of my valueable trainers on a flight to Redmond for some company that has NO signs of support for my products or even those of my Linux competitors? NOT!
I can get you Linux certified - no problem. Only $500 a person. I'll even fly out there. Using RedHat if you like. I have yet to meet a certified person who was worth a damn. But those certificates are useful; they let me know immediately that you're a clueless con-artist who is trying to cover up his ignorance with a piece of paper.
There was nothing in your comment that addresses the issue of the high cost of Red Hat's certification program. So who's whining and bitching, twerp?
That's why no one likes linux. Microsoft is pushing it too hard down everyone's throats.
> than the one without certification
I've taken my vehicles to the "certified" Ford and Chevy folks and found that's where I get my worst service. Took the truck in for some engine work, picked it up to leave and it turned out there'd been bolts left in the engine...had to take it back so they could fix the problems they'd created and it's never ran the same since. Got some radiator work done and on the way home steam started pouring out of the hood because the radiator cap wasn't threaded on straight. I could ramble on with more stories but the point I'm trying to make is that you've got two kinds of people doing work:
1st> The guy who's just putting in his time and can't be finished with you quick enough
2nd> The guy who's doing it because it's something he enjoys doing
Give me someone who's passionate about the work they are doing anytime.
I think userfriendly.org got this one right. http://www.userfr iendly.org/cartoons/archives/00feb/20000213.html :)
look, stupid moderators, this one post is a hell of a lot more interesting and informative than what was the top level thread when i got here. that post basically said that RH should be excused from competing at the level of MS because they were smaller. fuck that. this guy's perspective is a hell of a lot more relevant than that one.
troll my ass. MODERATE THIS GUY UP!
(my login name is sh_mmer)
Then learn the basic system calls and learn how to fold into the kernel your own system calls. Once you've done this you'll have a deeper knowledge of what makes those command-line utilities tick. The linux documentation project (www.linuxdoc.org) has most of the info you're looking for but you might have to hit the bookstore also. Any book that has "Linux Programming" in the title seems to touch on the kernel as well as go over the command-line utilities and deal with a broad range of other issues (the WROX press one, as well as Linux Programming Unleashed, seem worthwhile). BTW, I can't believe I'm not trolling today!!!
Im taking an MCSE course at BU at the moment.. theyre NOT a certification boot camp.. in fact they teach stuff about NetWare, UNIX, and low-level packet analysis. They also teach the history of networking, cable legths and the 5-4-3 rule with ethernet.. they teach subnetting, the history of TCP/IP and IP classes... they literally teach everything there.. including the long history of the PC.. all in four months.. mon thru fri, 8 am to 5 pm.. intensive stuff even for an experienced person like myslf.. I was kinda weary about taking my MCSE there.. but all the teachers there knew their stuff.. I havent met one which wasnt a CNE on top of MCSE/MCT.. they were unbiased.. how novell ripped off NDS from bayan and how m$ stole NDS from novell in win2k.. how the macintosh had plug n play in 84 and how the IBM's old token ring network worked, even tho its way obsolete.. what Im saying is dont make generlizations.. there are ALWAYS exceptions to the rule.. the only reason why I took mcse is that Im a poor puerto rican boy who doesnt have money for college.. so I needed to find a quick computer career solution.. I dont like m$ but like I said Im poor and being able to be 19 and making double what my parents make combined puts pride in them and myself..
Fortunately, the Red HAt certificate comes on 2-ply paper (just like their stock certificates), so you can recycle it.
For 2000$ MS will come to your door and turn your "key people" into MCSE?? Or for 2000$ they come to your door for support calls or what exactly?
Uhmm I've used Linux and FreeBSD since 1994 and as a consequence know a lot about Unix admin. I'm not certified but if you want you can hire me - I will work for *ALOT* less than 60,000$
This article is completely bogus.
Maybe the fact that you're in Redmond has something to do with that, hmmm?
I'd rather spend 5000 a day on Red Hat than 2000 a day on a Microsoft engineer. Red Hat must have smarter people.
From our experience, Microsoft will hire anyone with a pulse. Generally these guys have a pronounced simian aspect to their faces. They tend to speak in grunts and have nothing meaningful to say. I think they laugh at most of their clients.
This whole thread should be moderated to FLAMEBAIT.
"...risk of attrition by those gaining certification." I suppose that is a valid argument, but it is only valid if you care little about the skill level of your employees, and only care if they have lots of certificates hanging on the walls of their cubes. This article is pure FUD.
Somewhere right now there is an employee for a
small to mid size consulting firm who has just been charged with setting up a mid size web site. He has secured the hardware, obtained a shrink wrapped Redhat 6.1 CD, and using the new "user friendly" install -- he is now looking at a full blown X desktop....
6 hours later I get a phone call with "belly laughs" on the other end, when one of my contractors, upon stumbling over this poor guy trying to use GMC to set file permissions (of which he cannot grasp the concept of), and some graphical front end to Apache....
This is the *nix admin of tommorow...These are Microsoft Kids who have been "schooled" in the art of BILL....Where many "unqualified" individuals have been making a living with VB and FrontPage for the 6 years...and surprise now the customers want them to use this new Linux thing...
I love it....Bottom line -- some sort of certification is needed, and RedHat must do it Better, Cheaper, and More Efficient than the "other guy"...
Yeah, great idea. Except... there are already two efforts underway to deliver exactly what you propose: certification. First, there is SAIR Linux and GNU, some guy named Tobin Maginnis (sp?) who provides quite good training material and a certification to go with. (IIRC They were recently acquired by Wave Technologies, one of the largest (world-wide!) training companies around). (ok, ok, I'm affiliated with them somehow).
But wait, there's more. Doing it "the Linux way"(tm) is, what the guys over at LPI (Linux Professional Institute) are doing: an open process to create and review certification questions based on a community process in identifying objects and areas of interest. They are also the ones who are backed by the big boys (SuSE, IBM, Caldera)
But... the market is still young. If you can throw $2-5M at developing and marketing (that's most important, imho) a certification, you have a great chance for your upcoming IPO.
go figure.
Ok, let's say I have 20 servers and 80 workstations to install. Let's suppose also that I'll hire an extra guy to do the job and that I already have someone in place.
Assume they require the same kind of hardware.
Should I go either:
1) Install them individually with Microsoft (conservative estimates, I'm putting those as low as possible...):
+ 20 servers * 1000$ worth of software (NT Server)
+ 80 workstations * 1000$ worth of software (NT Workstation + Office)
+ 2000$*2(cert cost)
= 104000$
2) Kickstart them using RedHat Linux:
+ 150$ RedHat Linux Professionnal (this could also be 0$)
+ 80$ RedHat Deluxe (for workstations)
+ 55000$ RH platinum support for the first year (unlimited incidents for the servers plus training for 2, check it out!)
+ 40000$ an extra (on a baseline salary of x) of 40000$ to the top gun Unix IT guy I'll hire and keep
= 95230$
Hmm. Let me think... Seems to me that the Linux solutions gives me more room to buy proprietary software, more hardware, more support, more books... AND I'd have a better, more intelligent architecture that is automated.
Tough choice!
http://www.lpi.org
You can't be serious. A test that needs to hide the answers because people could learn them by heart is not worth anything. I don't think that their test is like that, I actually think - without having tried it (I didn't need it to get hired ;-) ) - that they have a good test.
--
Michael Hasenstein
http://www.suse.de/~mha/
No, lets not give them a break. Or us (see my email address) for that matter. We don't get any extra points for doing Linux stuff in the market, except from some of you guys here. We have to _compete_ with all the other players, especially MS. I don't _want_ special treatment, we just don't need that. We can't go to the customers telling them "Oh, but we're so small compared to MS, would you excuse us charging you more, so that we can use the extra money to grow?". Excuse me, something is wrong with your argumentation. And that from an American (if the .edu is right?)!
--
Michael Hasenstein
http://www.suse.de/~mha/
So WHAT? If you can configure sendmail you can configure sendmail! What type of questions do you expect at that test? The kind that you can learn for without knowing anything? Now, so far all the people who said they made the test said they were good, so it cannot be such simple type of questions, so it shouldn't matter if anyones knows them or not.
--
Michael Hasenstein
http://www.suse.de/~mha/
This is also an excellent post that soberly hits the nail on its' very head.
Let the tech folks do their jobs... PLEEZ!
They do indeed hold the keys to the tank. Let them wield them! You'll Save Money!
Geeezz...
Brak: What's THAT?
Thundercleese: A light switch.. of TOTAL DEVASTATION!
Back in the 80's, a CNE (Certified Network Engineer) meant something. You knew a CNE knew the signals travelling through your wiring, could compute the length you could traverse with a particular type of wiring, and could diagnose any problem you might happen to have. This has been diluted somewhat over the years (I don't think you actually end up needing to learn the math these days), but a CNE still means something.
A Cisco certification still means something. There is rigorous testing to make sure you know what the heck you are doing.
MCSE means diddley. Several of the sessions offered by MS, if you pay the entrance fee and attend you receive the certification, no exam required. Others require an exam in order to receive the certification (these don't cost as much).
Which basically means, you can buy a MCSE certificate to hang on your wall and your business card, but it is meaningless.
How meaningful is Red Hat's certification process? If it is more in line with Novell's or Cisco's, compare prices with their programs, not Microsoft's silly buy $2000 piece of paper.
"Flame away, I wear asbestos underwear"
So, for all levels of LPI certification, it costs you about $600 bucks. Of course, only the first exam is currently available, and its a beta exam.
They work with Virtual University Enterprises to deliver their exams, so you can take them at over a thousand places worldwide.
Zipwow
(Disclaimer: I work for VUE)
I don't know which is more depressing, that 2/3 didn't care enough to vote, or that 1/2 of those that did are crazy.
actually, I think that it is Player's Club.
What would be nice is to have a Linux Certified Engineer. There could be a standard test that was used by many testing groups.
This way redhat, caldera, sgi, corel, etc. could certify people as LCE's but they would all mean the same thing.
You would get an LCE from corel for example.
Binder
The reason for this should be pretty obvious... They don't want people leaking answers to the tests. If that were to happen, what worth would the exam be? Anyone who had taken the exam could sell info to the highest bidder. At the very least, this gives Red Hat the means to prosecute someone doing this, and makes it happening less likely.
-- K
First of all, I am disgusted with the number of idiots who have this notion that Linux can do no wrong who respond to ligitimate criticism of the certification process by getting all emotional.
That said, if you are in the Silicon Valley area, you do not need to fly to N.C. to get certified. You do need to take the one week coursework before taking the test, yes, where you can get away with just taking the test if you go to N.C., but besides that the prices are comparable.
As for the other points, we are looking at economies of scale here. As more and more people get certified, the certification process will cost less and less. Give it time. Until then, consultants have an edge because, as other posters have correctly pointed out, a RedHat certificate is more valuable than a MCSE. This edge is easily worth the time and expense of getting the certificate.
- Sam
The secret to enjoying Slashdot is to realize that it should not be taken too seriously.
"...we have to fly our people to Durham, [N.C.]."
Look on the bright side, Chapel Hill/Carrboro are practically right next door so you can hit Cat's Cradle before going home.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
It could be worse. What if Red Hat were in Eastern North Carolina and you went there during hurricane season?
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
I wish RedHat to make as much money as it can whatever way it wants. Just keep the show going :-)
Andrew
"Microsoft always comes to our door, they bring demo units, keep us in touch with their engineers, and certification for our people costs only $2000 each, on-site. Red Hat wants $5,000 a person and we have to fly our people to Durham, [N.C.]."
Well, at least the OS costs little or nothing.
--fatboy
IF WOMEN WERE AS NAKED AS I AM, WE WOULD SEE A TON MORE ASS!!
Can you post it?
"look you bastards, I got a degree in physics, I'm not an idiot and I know how to RTFM!"
You wouldn't be that badly off with that, I guess - you'd end up with an employer with a wider view.
Even seriously, I'd hire an RTFM person over any MSCE or RHSE. It's a different level of capability to be able to say "I'll read the man page and do it" than "sorry, I can't do it because I haven't done it before".
I myself can't even claim having any official degree, yet people keep asking me over. But that's just the current market.
I think, therefore thoughts exist. Ego is just an impression.
Micro Standards, in Redmond, Washington is happy with being able to get Microsoft training easily. They don't have to send anyone to North Carolina.
While this argument is valid for someone from, say, Chicago, Illinois, doesn't it seem a bit odd that these guys instigated the whole thing? Surely, they must realize that as Linux grows in popularity, there will be certification programs all over the place for Linux. Why pick on Red Hat, and why now, and why from Redmond, Washington?
I'm going to learn more about MicroStandards Distributors. Lots more. In the beginning of the article, I was actually impressed with their point of view, until I realized that they were pitting Microsoft certification against Red Hat certification; when I read the location information at the end, I suddenly regarded the article as a wash.
--------------Rev. C.C.Chips---------------- For the real truth, visit
M$ has the ability to make less profit on its support because it makes a scandalous amount of cash on the software itself, while support's one of the only profit points RH has. The idea is that you pay to become an expert, and there's no high entry fee to just become a novice (i.e. with expensive software). As for them coming to you, just wait until RH has sales offices everywhere and reasonable demand exists, or when RH makes nationwide deals with a couple of training centers--and that can't happen until there is a critical mass of RHCEs out there to train them all. 1,500 RHCEs is nothing in comparison with the hundreds of thousands of CNAs, CNEs, MCPs, and MCSEs. It will just take time.
As for certified folks wandering off to greener pastures, deal with it. This happens to every new hot certification. I wonder how many early MCSEs or CCIEs had the same desire to go to where the money or work environment was better with the same effect on their employer. When the market hits some kind of parity, the problem will evaporate. That's just the way it is.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana." --Groucho Marx
Exsqueeze me?
Free? I dont think so. SCO has never given anything to anyone. This is the biggest lie I have ever seen posted on slashdot.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
M$ started a certification program in order to evangelise their operating systems - they recognize that an easy way to get mindshare is to make certification (which is useless) ubiquitous.
:P
Of course, as many hiring managers would tell you, if warm bodies weren't worth what they are in this labor market, M$ certification guarantees nothing.
Red Hat is trying the same thing, but is making the mistake of trying to imbue legitimacy into an otherwise technologically worthless process.
It's high school all over again - cram for the tests, learn nothing, get yer paper, etc, ad nauseum - only the cost is more than just your post-pubescent sanity.
Pretty much any cert that you can get by a little study and a few tests is not worth getting, at least in the competitive job markets. Compare the Sun JAVA certification - it's hard as hell, and people who have it usually _know_ java.
These guys (the complaintants in the article) sound like the 'grab a book and get your paper' cert is exactly what they're looking for.
--
blue, who, in spite of all of this, is going to get his DYNIX/ptx certification.
i browse at -1 because they're funnier than you are.
Touring the head hunters around Boston, almost every single one is craving MSCE's to toss at company's. Additionally, most of them still scoff at Linux, preferring to hire/place people with tangible experience with Solaris (especially), AIX, or HP-UX.
That being the case I've witnessed, I can't possibly imagine a region where there's more actual demand for Red Hat certified engineers in comparisson to Microsoft certified ones. It's not like this is a single agency phenomenon. It's ALL of them, here.
Linux is NOT the problem. Specifically, he is complaining that since Linux certified people are so few and far between, they are hard to hold on to. Well, I didn't know Linux professionals were so valuable! ;->
Well I'm sorry! Just because the Linux market isn't saturated with such "professionals" like Microsoft/Novell, you think that is the fault of Linux or RedHat?!?!?! Geez!
And thank the media and bigots because the all backlash that has been building up for all the unwanted hype is about to be unleashed on Linux. People are looking for people to blame, whether that is Microsoft, Novell or, now, RedHat. Quit finger pointing and get working!
Revolution doesn't come easy people! Look at the long term, not the short. So many narrow minded people. Sure enough, consulting firms who worry about certifications are the ones bitching the loudest.
Me? No certification. No fancy titles. Just years of NT, Novell and Linux experience and software development and some publications.
-- Bryan "TheBS" Smith
-- Bryan "TheBS" Smith
Independent Author, Consultant and Trainer
Not sure if anybody will read this since it's yesterdays thread, but...
The real problem with GUIs that I have been able to find is that in order to simplify GUIs need to make assumptions. Now good GUIs will have an "options" or "advanced" or "experts" page that will let you change those assumptions.
One system that I am liking the more that I use it the HP/UX SAM (System administration Tool). SAM is an ungrateful pain in the ass. SAM is much easier to use than the command line (HP/UX is the leading cause of skull fractures and dented walls around here). You would not let a complete beginner loose on SAM, but somebody who is coming up to speed or coming from Linux can do great on it. where am I really going?
SAM is a GUI that will tell you all of the command line functions that it ran. If I need to script something that I do not know how to do yet, I run it once in SAM, pick out the right commands to use, test, and away I go.
The hardest part about CLI is knowing which commands to use.
chris
-- I need more coffee. It's Monday. There is no such thing as enough coffee on a Monday.
cyphunk,
I'm also an MCSE and I have taught classes on UNIX, TCP/IP, and network design (I'm also a CCDA).
The more I think about the differences between the platforms (after a nasty fight/discussion with my SO this weekend) I agree that the differences in the platforms and the learning curve is understanding.
An NT admin can be reasonably functional not knowing how anything actually works, just how to make it work, until it breaks.
A UNIX Admin cannot be reasonably functional without at least a basic understanding of how the pieces of the puzzle fit together. Or are we just fooling ourselves?
Maybe the GUI really is the difference. In NT I go start>programs>administrative tools>user manager. In Linux I find a command prompt and type useradd. Or I can hunt through the new Gnome based tools...
maybe the GUI makes it easier, maybe the GUI hides complexity so people don't need to understand how things really work just to do simple tasks.
If the GUI takes control and brings in hordes of junior sysadmins, this may be a good thing for knowledgable tech workers overall. It will allow us to spend less time on mundane tasks and give a much greater understanding and respect for our abilities when things do really go wrong...
chris
-- I need more coffee. It's Monday. There is no such thing as enough coffee on a Monday.
One of the problems with certification is that employers tend to NOT want to pay you any (or much) more once you do get certified (assuming they hired you before being certified, and wanted you to get certified afterwards). Perhaps this is because employers (managers) themselves don't really see any value to the certification in the sense of valuing you as an employee, though they often do see the value in terms of customer relations. What this means is that to am employer, certification of an employee is something to tally up and brag about to a client or potential client, and is quickly forgotten about when your next salary review comes up. I see more demand for certification in body shops (e.g. consulting firms), whether that be Microsoft, Sun, Oracle, Baan, PeopleSoft, Lotus, Cisco or Redhat. I see less of that demand when the employer is not in the business of peddling warm bodies to other businesses.
Consider this. If the consulting firm is presenting themselves to a client, who's reputation are they trying to present and bolster when they do this? Certainly not the reputation of the individual who will end up coming out there for are short time to work. There are some exceptions, but that's generally when the person being presented has something even better than a certification, such as a Ph.D., or they were on the development team of the product they are consulting for.
Pick one of the better known Linux developers whose name you know. Now imagine some Linux consulting business manages to get them on staff or as a partner. Of course when they present to a potential client that needs such a person, they will point the praises directly to them. The certification, if they even have one, probably won't even be mentioned (although they surely won't forget to add it to the tally sheet for other clients). For the rest of us in other situations, we're just numbers on a tally sheet that gets presented to the clients as part of the reputation building of the company itself.
This is the unfortunate of how business does work. There isn't much else that can be done when company A wants to build its reputation to company B in order to get company B's business. As evil as many of us want to think of certification (and it probably got that reputation from the way a couple of other companies were handing them out) it is about the only thing business has to go on when you're looking at the third party consulting market.
What Redhat is doing, by charging much higher fees, and making the test much tougher, is probably an effort to avoid dilution of the certification value. I can tell you this. If I was hiring an NT administrator, and two candidates both had one year experience working with NT in an administrative capacity, and one had an MCSE while the other had a CCIE, I'd hire the CCIE in a heartbeat and sleep well that night. Cisco has done well to make sure their certification program represents the value of the people that earn it. Maybe Redhat is actually trying to do just that, too.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Finnaly, someone knows what BSOD really stands for. (backwards) Denial-Of-Service rev B
--
Lab test show that use of micro$oft causes deadly cancer in lab animals.
Actually, M$ products have a very low (0) cost of ownership. M$ owns it, you just licence it. Big difference!
--
Lab test show that use of micro$oft causes deadly cancer in lab animals.
*yawn* I can't speak for gateway, but the last three servers I ordered from Dell came without an OS. It helps if you actually talk to a person.
Oh, also take a look at this. I can get Novell and Red Hat too! (check the OS section.)
Try checking some facts next time.
"All those tubes and wires and careful notes!"
I have been through the RH 133 and RH 300, total cost $4300 plus travel and lodging. I am not sure where the $5000 came from in the initial post. I took the courses back in August '99.
Point 1: RH training was at that time far from perfect. I wrote a them a rather lengthy letter regarding the state of their training. After I completed the examination, I spend about an hour talking with one of the instructor's regarding the training format and material.
I have not attended a MS type bootcamp to date. Rather I have purchase about $600 worth of texts and $2000 in CBT. I have yet to get a consistant answer from either regarding many issues of the Win architecture. All of the books mildly flame MS's testing structure. Even the bootcamps I have evaluated for attending this summer all mildly flame the MS concept of certification.
Point 2: As products go, this is a comparison between apples and a dung heap. RH just like the other major Linux distro's produces relatively prompt patches (yes, there are some biggies which are still hanging around). MS on the otherhand has lead the life of denial. Keeping some patches secret (meaning unless you contact the magic people and tell them the correct definition of the problem, they will not give you the patch even though they know the product is broken).
Point 3: RH is not the end-all of end-alls in Linux. They are one of many resources available. If you are dissatisfied with them, there are other distro's and their support staff. However, MS is the final word on MS.
IF A CAR WORKED AS POORLY AS MS PRODUCTS, WE WOULD SEE A TON MORE BIKES!!
In a place beyond time and space, in a land far better than this, look for me there...
Well if companies bitch about the inconviences and price of RedHat's certification program then why don't they just go with one of the other Certification programs being offered? From what I've seen, some of the others seem better anyway in so far as testing locations and course material are concerned.
This does bring up an important point though: If RedHat can't clean up their act they can lose their grip on the certification "racket" which will in turn hurt them in corporate area when corporations start turning to other Distros with better certification programs.
-Lee
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Consider the possibilities of someone posting just the questions?
change is inevitable
Are you more comfortable with a Ford certified mechanic doing a break job on your Explorer or the corner mechanic who learned by the seat of their pants?
I'd be more comfortable with the corner guy. The only way an unaffiliated garage can stay in business for long is by offering good service - they can't rely on customers like you, who figure that the only mechanics who could possibly understand Ford brakes are Ford-trained. And I'd extend the argument back to certification, too. None of the people I'm familiar with who really know their stuff have bothered to get a certificate "proving" their expertise. Their track record (successful projects & happy customers) speaks for itself.
M$ certification produces over-confident trained monkeys whose only skill is to anticipate the contents of a window before it comes up. Ask them to tell you just what it is that all those points and clicks do and you'll get a "deer in headlights" response.
RedHat is training people to use a true and powerful multi-user system that operates more or less like every flavour of UNIX out there. They gain a thorough understanding of the system AND the technologies. You end up with a well-rounded technician who can provide insight into Linux in particular and operating systems/network applications in general. Worth the extra money to wind up with someone who's got more than a Pavlovian sense of how to run a server.
--- Tao
This poor guy is still mentally trapped under Microsoft's thumb. If you don't want to use Linux, then don't. That's the point here. Free your mind.
Microsoft has (had?) a monopoly on OS's--therefore they have a monopoly on OS certs. If you need an OS cert, then you have no choice. However, if you find it bothersome to fly to NC and spend $5000 for Linux training it doesn't matter--you don't need to. That's the difference between RedHat and Microsoft. There have always been (and always will be) alternatives to RedHat--but until recently there were no alternatives to Microsoft.
--
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
The colour of the sky is black. But the moon is a strange shade of blue...
84 day uptime since my sister power cycled my UPS. Grrr...
Excellent idea. That cert sounds like it was tailor made for me. Although I do have an MCSE I am also learning how to do lots of things fairly well but not well enough to be certified.
Or how about one for people who can figure out how to do something quickly even without experience in it. Using only their brains, applying what they do know and making use of the FM (as in RTFM)
greetings, eMBee.
--
Gnu is Not Unix / Linux Is Not UniX
When you tell a potential client that the certifications are "largely marketing ploys", I can tell you right now that warning bells are going to go off in their heads, cause it sure as hell is going to sound to them like you're trying to downplay your lack of certifications. I know it's mostly marketing, you know it too, but the CLIENT does not. Why should the client believe you? As far as the examples of previous work, I brought up that point as well.
As to the building analogy...the problem is that there are no professional standards yet for the tech industry. So, the client looks for the next best thing: vendor certifications.
The central problem is that most clients you or I or anyone else in the tech industry will deal with for at least a few more years do not take into account how new this industry is. They want to be assured of that which is not really assurable yet. Throw in the thousands of crackpot tech companies out there that truly do not have a clue, and the horror stories they generate, and a client feels that he must look for some sort of official statement of qualification.
Once again, I'm not saying certifications are a good thing. The industry is just too young for potential clients to just cross their fingers and hope they don't get fired if you fuck up.
"That's Tron. He fights for the Users."
Knowledgeable customers are few and far between. After all, isn't that why they're hiring you or your company to do the job for them? I'm not trying to say that certifications are inherently good or bad, but certifications do have a perceived value to the customer. You don't fund the construction of a building without making sure the contractors are licensed and bonded. For the vast majority of people who make the decisions of who to hire to build their network, they understand as little about networking as they do about construction. They need something to look at that says "these guys are not complete morons." About the only thing that tends to offset the need for certifications in my experience is letting potential customers talk to previous customers where similar work was done.
"That's Tron. He fights for the Users."
There was nothing in your comment that addresses the issue of the high cost of Microsoft's programs. So who's whining and bitching, prewt?
--
ba-bu-ba-ba-baaa, da-da-dum. Re-boot the ser-ver.
ba-bu-ba-ba-baaa, da-da-dum. Re-boot the ser-ver.
+&x
If life was fair, Bill Gates would have a toilet that shot shit up his ass every time he flushed. AND HE COULDN'T EVER USE A DIFFERENT TOILET!!!
(very busy and annoyed today, then NT crashes, joy)
--
ba-bu-ba-ba-baaa, da-da-dum. Re-boot the ser-ver.
ba-bu-ba-ba-baaa, da-da-dum. Re-boot the ser-ver.
+&x
Where do you get that CCIE is expensive?
Written Exam: $200
Lab Exam: $1000
Cheaper than MCSE *or* RHCE!
CCIE 5125
I need an APC pickup!
Frankly, I wouldn't take anything to anyone, regardless of experience or qualifications, who was going to break it.
I would much rather take it to someone who would fix it, especially if it was the brakes on my Explorer.
MrCreosote Meow!Thump!Meow!Thump!Meow!Thump! "You're right! There isn't enough room to swing a cat in here!"
I've noticed there are quite a few people out there who claim to "Know Linux." It seems just about everyone out there "knows Linux" to one degree or another, but until you see them actually demonstrate their skills, it's impossible to know just how much they know. Certification programs provide, at the very least, a baseline by which companies can measure the knowledge of prospective employees. Having a certification lets a prospective employer know that you have, at the very least, the skills necessary to get an RHCE certificate.
Also, training is not necessarily limited to NC. I took my RHCE class through Global Knowledge in Arlington, VA. I believe they also offer classes in Chicago, SF, and a few other places (Check their website out for more location info...)
And the test isn't as easy as you might think...
"Life has improved immeasurably since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously." - Hunter S. Thompson
As long as they continue to fill all the classrooms they can staff (I assume they are?), they're gonna charge what they can. Eventually they'll have more teachers and space - then they may have to lower prices to fill classrooms.
I guess it bothers me a little when I know for a fact that my cable, phone, gas, and electric companies are bonafide monopolies, being that I honestly don't have a choice on which I purchase.
In the Rochester, New York, USA area, attempts are being made to do away with these monopolies.
Cable has competition from the various satellite companies.
For a while, Tiem-Warner (the cable company), was offering telephone service through their cables, as competition to Frontier, the local landline company. Also, the numerous cellular companies in Rochester also offer competition.
The utilities are being regulated, so while their is only one set of gas and power lines to my house, owned by Rochester Gas and Electric, I has the option of being gas and electricity from several companies, with RG & E presumbly being paid to carry it.
Now, can I call Gateway and ask for a Celeron preloaded with Linux, or FreeBSD, or BeOS, or anything but Windows?
George
Thats MasterCard. Visa just says its accepted more than AMEX remember?
Agreed, mostly. The idea of certification is very good. But:
1) None of my employers used certification as a criterion for hiring me or my peers (UNIX sysadmin), and when I was a manager, I didn't use it either, simply because I had many certified people traipsing past me who were useless, and there were other, more easily identifiable factors (like asking actual technical questions, or similar experience) to test for.
(This is not to say that more of the good employees didn't end up being certified, just that it was a less reliable factor. However, the principle of survival of the fittest would indicate that spending money and time getting certified might not be worth it, if you're doing it to get a better job.)
2) There is, and I hope there continues to be, a difference in perception regarding *n?x certification and MS certification, which I think is an outgrowth of the perception of the quality of the OS. I happen to think that perception is correct, but even if you (plural) disagree with me, my point is not the quality of the OS/certification, but the perception.
What I mean to say is, I hope RedHat certification never becomes as badly respected as MS certification, and if so I hope it doesn't drag the perception of ?n*x certification down with it. Because someday I kinda hope I *will* have reason to use certification to hire employees.
A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg. -- Samuel Butler
I see nothing wrong with the Red Hat certification process. I've had my MCSE for over 4 years. These days any idiot can get one. At least with the Red Hat cert you must take a lab exam. Yes, it costs more but you get more. If you want to complain about price go look at Cisco's CCIE.
I think good certification is a good thing. I self taught my way to a MCSE, forcing myself to learn a lot of stuff about 95 (took that test instead of NT workstation because I avoid 9x like the plague) and NT internals. Bad certification is of little good, and that is what MS's stuff has become.
MS had screwed it up for a long while. A small question pool made newbie cram to pass books and CBT possible. They completely screwed up the Office certified user program, so help desk types naturally just did the MCSE, further weakening its credibility.
MS appears to realize what it has done. There is one big exam for NT 4.0 MCSE's to recertify on Win2k (you avoid having to pass about 4 core exams). MS just announced that you get only one chance to pass this exam. Overall, reading their stuff, you seem to get the impression that it is going to be a lot harder than the 4.0 track.
Someone mentioned the CNE as a bastion of all that is wonderful. Well, I have heard a lot of people say that in the late 80s, there were a lot of people who became CNEs without ever touching a Netware console. Today, the CNE is probably less like that due to decreased marketability alone. Adaptive testing does not seem to be a panacea, as in the MCSE realm, they use the same old small question pool.
I had some passing interest in Red Hat Certification, although now I am more spiritually in tune with the BSDs. A lot of people post on Slashdot saying how their 8 years experience makes them the almighty Linux guru. Great, could well be true. But if that experience is at home, hacking away code, how do you prove that experience to pointy haired bosses and HR types, which is what needs to be addressed if Linux is going to go big time? Show these people some of your wonderful Perl scripts? Not likely.
A good certification, especially with a lab component can carry some real weight. I don't think MS could ever go to a lab format simply due to the scope of the project that would entail. Cisco certification has gotten very popular, especially at the low end, but I don't think there are going to be a lot more CCIE's due to the incredibly demanding lab portion.
Finally, cost. Not every company has MS bending over backwards to get your employees certified at a cut rate. A lab based Red Hat cert for 5k is probably well worth consideringing, as every fly by night continuing ed program is going to have linux instruction shortly, if they do not have it already.
matt
less money, and I'm with you on the plane ticket
and cost of cert on that but this part is the one you should have read a bit more.
"...but I can say that the support we get from Microsoft is superior, and less expensive," Daher said. "Microsoft always comes to our door, they bring demo units, keep us in touch with their engineers, and certification for our people costs only $2000 each, on-site. Red Hat wants $5,000 a person and we have to fly our people to Durham, [N.C.]."
If you'll notice he's talking about price as well as quality, and how they are treated by MS.
I always shop at small stores when I can (hey if you need anything late at night and in a hurry walmart is handy)
But when a small shop treats me worse AND charges more money they'll not see me again.
Sorry for the atrocious spelling and grammar been up WAY to long.
Answer: That depends on who has more experience. The one who has actually done a break job ranks alot higher than the one with a framed Ford certificate on the wall. BOTH are just as capable of making mistakes.
:-)]
There's something to be said for training, but there's much more value in experience.
I, for example, taught myself to program C. Yes, I took programming courses, but I was mostly just setting there waiting for the instructor to get on with it. (I also took BASIC, FORTRAN, PASCAL, and C++ courses from high school onwards.) Having taught FORTRAN labs I can say without any doubt, certification ("book learning" or "in theory") is no substitute for actual experience ("in practice").
In fact, most of what I know I learned on my own. I would expect this to be true of many slashdoters. (I could quote 7th grade SAT scores, but I won't. [Part of the Duke University Talent Identification Program back in 1985, I took the SAT for the first time in the 7th grade. TIP still exists; my nephew is now part of the program
I have an MCSE. With any luck within the next six months I'll have an RHCE too - a good friend of mine is an RHCX [Redhat certified eXaminer] [the `X' multiplies the cool factor by 500% IMHO].
My opinion of the MCSE is varied. It did provide me me with the equivalent of quite afew hours of experience - I went instructor based, probably a waste of cash for the earlier courses, but I needed to play on some large hardware that I wouldn't normally have access to.
The course was about four of five weeks solid, and ran intermittently over six months, and went from `what is a network' to `DNS zone files' `WINS Node types' `Subnetting' etc. within a fairly short time. If you needed to know the former, you'll never know the later. If you already knew the former, you've wasted money having it taught to you.
My course included a one day Networking Essentials training session. A waste of cash - when going through bus types [early 1999], the instructor covered ISA, MCA, PCI, and the relative bandwidths of each....asked re: AGP `What's AGP?'
Anyone who says the MCSE exams are entirely multiple choice and therefore easy has not sat any of the exams, which are actually quite difficult [and sometimes obscure - I had questions of SQL / IIS stuff pop up on my exam which were not covered in my courseware. Boo MS! At least they have a feedback proceedure at the end of each exam.
I've since forgotten a lot of the stuff I answered on the exams. That probably highlights nothing more than that one has to keep fresh, and I can brush up on this at any time - the courseware was excellent. Perhaps 6-7000 pages of quality reading, plus 7 CDROMs of actually useful stuff that I continue to use when playing with MS networks. A years free Technet Plus also provides more training, beta exams, and beta software. It's around ten Cds a month. Quite good value, and I really do wish there was a similar, subscription style, non-vendor specific thing for Linux
I have heard rumors that MS is retiring NT4 MCSEs at the end of *this* year. That sucks and is far less time than the 3.5 guys had.
The Redhat course is much more difficult and requires much more experience. All the training firms offereing MCSEs require is experience with the Windows UI and rudimentary netowrking. I haven't signed the NDA, so I can tell you the exams involve actually sorting out real-world problems with a variety of hardware and software issues on training machines - rather than sitting at a computer answering questions, you're DOING rather than SAYING. I like that a lot. Remember, good MCSEs hate the idiot MCSEs just as much as you do.
A point I have yet to see raised is that most instructor based certification vendors have a guarantee that if an employee leaves your company within six months as a result of the training they will provide the company with another four weeks of training aty no cost whatsoever.
Once course I think whose reputation has not soiled over the years has been the Certified Cisco Internet Engineer, CCIE. Their knowledge seems to be unparralelled in any certification program.?
I think this is quite a bit better than paying $hundreds per workstation for software licenses but getting a discount on the training for the maintenance crew, especially since you'll probably need ten times as many maintenance people to keep the M$ stuff running.
--
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
I have written proof I'm qualified...it's called code and I have written lots of it in the last 6
years.
Everyone knows that having some peice of paper that says you can do something dosen't mean you can and if that's what some employers are looking for then those are not the kind of people I want to work for.
If I end up the last un-certified hack on the earth so be it.
May your soul reach heaven before the devil realizes you are dead
Getting cool software for free is great! I certainly love it, and I'm pretty sure anyone but cranky business excecutives and Microsoft would agree with me. Looking at the finiancial side of a free, software-producing business musn't be a fun task for their accountants. How is Red Hat making money? Lets see, selling it's distribution commerically, offering support (after the 3 month free period, you pay through the nose [$200 per 'incident' I believe]), and training/certification!
You do pay through the nose for anything but the basics, but that's life in the free software business, especially when they are employeeing 140 people (at last count).
As with operating systems, there are certification alternatives as well. For a small business, the cheapest way of training employees is to have one person do the initial learning (i.e. send them down to NC to get trained), then have them come back and share the knowledge wealth. Getting copies of RHCE books and having people work through them, then use the already certified employee help them out if the need arises is one great way to bypass the big expenses, and you'll probabally end up with more knowledgable workers than if they go to NC because all of the training material is still on hand when one feels the need for a memory jolt. You'll save money with this model as well, because you only need to fork over $750 for the exam. The cheapest alternative I can conspire is to run down to your local Barnes & Nobel, get a cup of coffee, and grab a RHCE book of the shelf and dive in (I've done it many times).
IIRC, I got ~3.24 - either that or 3.74, out of 5. Certainly not amazing - most /. could pass it easily, I would expect. It's pretty decent though - they mail you an official looking certification (I don't think it even mentions you took the exam online), and it's something to put on your resume that ignorant HR people won't know to distrust.
It's a cool concept (free online certifications) - I would love for Redhat, LPI, or a similar authority to offer some kind of online exam. Of course, there are numerous problem - how would the exam be 'verified' - you could easily get the answers from someone who took the exam earlier. If you force the applicants to take the exam at the same time, you destroy the core advantages of the online exam contest. IIRC, the Brainbench exam has a database of questions, and only asks ~60 for each exam. This could be a good approach, but would of course involve writing more, quality questions. The questions would be divided into topics to ensure each test taker would get an approximately equal amount of questions on each topic. What are the other security problems with this concept? I'm probably missing something obvious.
Also, how much would it cost to take the LPI exam? Is the RH exam a better idea?
You can take different courses as seen here. They offer Systems Admin, Security Admin and a Fast-Track program.
Its this simple: If you don't like it, don't support it. Don't pay for it, don't go to it. There's other ways to know your stuff, or to show off your knowledge. You don't need RHCE to take over the world. But you might need an extra 5 G's sittin around...
Mike Roberto
- roberto@soul.apk.net
-- AOL IM: MicroBerto
Berto
Yes! Huzzah, someone with the spirt to defend all that is true in Americanism! All this damnable bad grammar on slashdot is going to destroy our wonderful republic one day. Is this folly directly related to the so-called Mr. Thomas Jefferson's light treatment of his slaves? Absolutely! That and his wisecracking and various shenannigans against God-fearing decent American-style Federalism!
The current Slashdot moderation system is made by gay communists!
Just so; it's the classic Loss Leader. Correct also about MS using this as an opportunity to pack corporate tech staffs with MS droids. Significantly, Red Hat's representative spoke about work in progress to make their certification more accessible, whereas MS was not represented at the conference. It seems that the "new kid on the block" is listening to the customers and making improvements -- contrary to the entirely negative tone of the headline.
IMHO, the reason certifications are important in the business world is that they provide a least common denominator. If the guy has no degree but has certification, you know that he has at least seen the material in the cert program. I must admit that the CNE program has gone downhill since it started, (I believe it was a lot harder when I certified in '93), and I won't even mention the amount of technical skill required to get MCSE, (although my 15 year old son is happy that it isn't too deep and doesn't cover software other than MS).
Of course experience is preferred, but most of the merit badges earned in the trenches don't show on the outside, (unless you are an engineer yourself and then you KNOW if someone is blowing smoke). the people that do the hiring in large corporations don't know jack about protocols or OSes.
âoeIn theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not." â Albert Einstein
I think management people sometimes don't appreciate that a knowledgeable tech is worth money. They'd often rather have a cheap, inexperienced person than an expensive, knowledgeable, experienced person. Seems silly to me.
-brennan
you obviously arent one of the pointy heads ive interviewed with that asks why i dont have an MCSE and then points me to the door.... Wanna give me a job?
Now, my dad's not the biggest Microsoft fan in the world, but he's looking around at the alternatives. What he's doing right now is choosing a delivery platform for videoconferencing.
Sun? McNealy gives him the creeps. My dad's a mainframe vet; you say the words "thin client" to him and he starts foaming at the mouth.
Linux? He likes the idea of it, but every time he tries to install it, it's a disastrous failure. His experience(not mine) is that it's not ready for prime time, and he doesn't want to have to worry about some schoolteacher trying to figure out a "kernel panic" message.
Apple? He likes the idea of OS X Server, but he's been burned by Apple in the past. Remember, even Mac zealots(I'm one) will admit that Apple is the worst company in the world, that happens to make the best computers in the world.
Now he's getting free copies of Win2k, the evangelists are giving him free classes on migrating to it...and it's stable as hell, at least on his Dell PIII's with 256mb of RAM.
What do you think he's going to adopt?
I would love to hear about alternatives you think I should point him at. Comments?
-- Support Ometz le-Serev.
As a side note to the whole certification issue, SAGE, A subgroup of Usenix, has been working on the Unix Systems Administrator Certification for several years now. The legal issues are hard, as well as even the basic issues of What do you certify?
Other certification programs are from SANS and from Linux Professional Institute
These organizations are professional thrid party groups that are not tied to any particular vendor, and will carry much more weight in the industry than any vendor specific "Certification". (IMHO)
(BTW: FUML Rocks!)
LongTail SSH Brute Force analysis tool is here!
Fortunately, someone already said what I was going to say (of course, that may no be worthy of moderation).
HR doesn't really understand the work done by people in those positions. Thus outside yardsticks, certificates and degrees, become important.
When I was doing hiring, I cannot tell you the number of lusers that paraded though my office because HR had seen that they were certified. Some of these people couldn't have installed NT without calling tech support.
Most HR droids (except in the really, really good tech companies) don't have the faintest idea what the company does. When I worked in a biomedical consulting firm, the HR person would routinely throw away Ivy League degrees in favor of ones from, shall we say, less distinguished schools because the one she chose "had more scientific words on them."
Managers don't want to get dumped on by their bosses if a new hire turns out bad.
I'd add to this: HR is afraid to get dumped on for wasting the manager's time if he/she sends a bad candidte to the managers. Certs are a CYA measure for the HR folks as well-- they can always say "well, he/she/it had the right credentials," and the manager is forced to agree (how is he going to explain that he wants someone who can think?) and go away.
I've interviewed at jobs where HR, using their standards, has told me "you really don't fit the job description", and when I went ahead and interviewed been told "you're the first person HR has sent us that fits."
Dammit, now you're taunting me-- why didn't you apply to the companies that I used to work for?
A lot of people are going to go on the offensive here, and contest the validity or neccessity of Linux certification, but stop and think for a second.
Companies like Red Hat are helping give Linux credibility in the general IT workplace. Most advanced Linux users don't need, nor will they want to be certified. But if an IT shop wants it for their employees, and demands it before they adopt Linux for their systems, shouldn't we cator to that desire for the sake of the movement?
Red Hat has stepped on a few toes in the advanced Linux community. Raster left RHAD because he didn't want to develop enlightenment to the point that it was simply a Windows interface clone, running on X. But RH had good reason. Why? Because the average user has been using Windows for years, and they aren't going to start from scratch.
RH is trying a bridge a large gap, and we can't go and complain everytime they do something that we don't like. RH is a business, and they are running it like one. I'm not a Red Hat user, but I can appreciate what they are trying. Cut them some slack.
The key here, is for Red Hat to accept and acknowledge the criticism given at this conference, and act accordingly to improve their service to the very people that are going to result in RH making money. In the end, it will benefit us all.
"There is no knowledge that is not power"
But cut the fun, there's a point here... Linux support for installation as I have experienced it, is bad during installation, if you don't have internet connection, who d'you gonna call? (i.e. this is in Europe huh!)
Even support on Linux stuff after installation is very aquward, like, if you don't know the-man-who-does, then who're you gonna mail? Don't expect my mom to know anything about xfree.org! I use Linux for 1.5 years now, and I still don't know all the community behind it, I'm just Joe user you know...
There's another point here by the way:
Yeeeeeaaaaah, Microsoft comes to your door to install things, well, that's nice, but once it goes wrong, they let you down, and you know it!
Linux community vendors chickens, while Microsoft vendors eggs, ;-).
Bizar technology?
I'm not sure about anyone else, but I looked up Redhat Certification on Redhat's site, and they tell me I can get it in a variety of locations, for me the closest is Portland, OR. And it costs me $2500 for a 5-day workshop and then testing.
Microsoft always comes to our door, they bring demo units, keep us in touch with their engineers, and certification for our people costs only $2000 each, on-site. Red Hat wants $5,000 a person and we have to fly our people to Durham,[N.C.]."
Red Hat Inc., in Durham, N.C.
MicroStandard Distributors, in Redmond, Wash.
Uh, Daher (the guy with the original rant), perhaps the reason Microsoft can come hold your hand, wash your privates, and you don't have to spring for a hotel room is that you are in the same stinking city with M$ and its cast of thousands. Give me a break!
Give it time. Supply and demand will fix the costs and availability. If you need an RHCE as bad as you say, you should be able to afford to pay for one by renting him to your clients.
I, for one, would just as soon see an RHCE maintain a bit more respectibility, if possible, than the CE programs of other systems. If it takes a higher price to do it, so be it.
The little guy just ain't getting it, is he?
The only thing that keeps me from getting this certification is the money, if I look at the list of what is thaught, I think 80% of Slashdotreaders can pass it without ever looking at a book.
Well, maybe learn how an rpm works, if you're used to ports or debs, for the rest is pretty standard Unix sysadmin stuff on a x86 arch, if you ask me.
<grub> Reading
"Is Linus a "Certified Linux Engineer?" Is Alan Cox? "
The difference here is that everyone knows that Linus and Alan are qualified Linux experts. But the rest of us mere mortals need proof of our skills in order to get good jobs. Certifications provide that proof.
"It's hard enough to find and keep talented IT people, and Red Hat is asking us not only to spend $5,000 a person, which eats heavily into our cost, but we also have to lose a $60,000 employee for two weeks, who after being certified, can move almost anywhere he wants, maybe even over to Red Hat. There aren't that many Linux-certified people out there."
This is a typical attitude. Employers in IT want highly trained, qualified people at the cheapest possible price. By getting their employees certified, the employees now have written proof that they are qualified. This makes it easier for the employee to switch jobs, and subsequently, the employer has to compensate the employee, or risk losing them.
It's just you.
(SNIFF!)
TangoChaz
"It's not enough to be on the right track -- you have to be moving faster than the train." -- Rod Davis, Editor of Seahorse Mag.
TangoChaz
--------------------
Wise men talk because they have something to say, fools because the
Yes, they were proprietary networks that tried to become internet portals, although Compuserve's biggest problem was poor infrastructure planning. Their bulliten boards were based on a very inflexible model, and their internet gateway would cache dynamic pages and just didn't have enough bandwidth.
No, there is no difference. Literally. Compuserve is currently owned by AOL. Installing Compuserve's WinCIM 5.0 produces the same problems as AOL's software.
TangoChaz
"It's not enough to be on the right track -- you have to be moving faster than the train." -- Rod Davis, Editor of Seahorse Mag.
TangoChaz
--------------------
Wise men talk because they have something to say, fools because the
If I were the employee, I'd be loving this
Are there any RHCE books released yet, that might ease the cost of certification?
I realize that this comment may be a little off-topic, but still I'm curious as to what things us non-gurus can do to strengthen our Linuxing knowledge.
I get my hands dirty with problems as they arise, but it would be nice if there was a more structured approach for learning the ins and outs of Linux.
What things can you suggest? (And if you say RTFM... which FMs are important and/or good?) Then at what point would I be ready for one of these certification courses?
BTW, I generally don't hire folks with certification. It doesn't prove a damn thing... but it does tell me a lot about the person who touts such certification as being valuable. The idea of certification is not to get hired, but to get considered in the first place. You can have all the real world experience possible, but if prospective employers dont see that magic acronym on your resume, it's going in the trash. It was the same with Bachelor's degrees years ago. Nowadays, it's MCSEs, Oracle DBAs, A+, etc. How about one for people like me who learned, and are still learning, how to do a lot of things fairly well, but not enough to be considered a "Certified" this-or-that. I propose, CJOATMON; Certified Jack Of All Trades, Master Of None.
It's a very dark ride.
I think you will find, in many cases, either a size relationship, ora distance from the technology relationship. In little company the people who understand the work you'll be doing talk with you and make the hiring decision. In a large company, or in one removed from the tech you'll be handling, this is less true.
In a larger company :
A) The government watches the hiring practices.
B) The bosses don't want to government to dump on them. They have Human Resources people to reduce this risk.
C) HR, in order "to be fair", sets up guidelines and standards for positions. HR doesn't really understand the work done by people in those positions. Thus outside yardsticks, certificates and degrees, become important.
D) Managers don't want to get dumped on by their bosses if a new hire turns out bad. Certificates and degrees give CUA protection - "well, he had the right credentials", and the pointy haired boss goes off thinking "maybe we need to change our requirements."
I've interviewed at jobs where HR, using their standards, has told me "you really don't fit the job description", and when I went ahead and interviewed been told "you're the first person HR has sent us that fits." The piece of paper is the bun you give the watchdog, what's in your head gets you hired.
I doubt this is really a loss leader for MS, as they do very little training themselves. I have taken technical courses covering products from MS, HP, Sun, and Oracle, and they all charge ~US$2000 for a one-week course (give or take $200). Microsoft rarely teaches their own courses, as they usually license other, smaller companies and individuals to provide that training.
Microsoft *does* hold classes, but these are usually right before a product launch to seed some trainers so there will be someone around to train everyone else.
Of course, these smaller training organizations aren't exactly losing money, either. A contract instructor flown in from out-of-state to teach for five days may cost $3000-to-$6000, but a class of twelve students at $2000 per head still leaves one with a pretty hefty profit. Of course, office space, computers, and a competent sales staff aren't cheap, but that overhead is certainly bearable with each classroom pulling in $18,000 per week!
BTW, you don't need to take MS courses to get MS-certified, and you don't need to take Sun courses to get Sun-certified: you just need to pass the associated tests (at $100 or more per test), and the only company that profits from this is Sylvan Prometric.
Given that so many companies other than MS charge $2000 for these classes, for Red Hat to charge $5000 does not seem defensible.
So now Linux is 30 year old technology? The Xserver which supports my NVIDIA GeForce is 30 year old technology? The Drivers that drive my SoundBlaster Live! card are 30 year old technology. You say you like Linux as much as the next guy. Well I'm the next guy, and you obviously don't like it as much as I do. And BTW, If there is a best way of doing something it doesn't matter how old it gets. Using a cup to hold water, how old is that one? So long as Linux is based on common sense and Windows is based on senseless garbage, Linux will remain.
Frag 'em all...
dunno what it has to do with certification, but it can be illegal to be a monopoly.
for example, some years ago a radio/tv conglomerate owned too many radio and tv stations. there is a law that establishes a limit on this.
the doj forced them to sell several stations. i don't think it even went to court, the law is very clear.
thus, some monopolies are illegal.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
As a guy who just signed up for the week long RHCE 300 training and exam...I must say someone misquoted that article big time.
The correct price I paid for the RHCE is $2498 as seen HERE
Or you can just take the exam part for $750
certification is not a meaningless scam. a company who hires you to set up their network is obviously not knowledgeable, otherwise they'd do it themselves. certification is reassuring to those without a tech background, who comprise the vast majority of the population. Would you hire a lawyer with 20 years experience in another state but hasn't passed the bar in yours?
C is for Cookie.
Redhat has neither the financing, nor the clout that microsoft does. There isn't really much way for them to setup a program of the nature that surrounds the MCSE because there just aren't enough people in their company, enough resources, or the popular support for it. BUT, from the sounds of this, this is quite possibly a superior course, for what seems to be a superior platform.
Of course, neither of these is a college degree... For 5k, you could be sending an employee to night classes at a university.
Specific training for system software is good and important and all, but nowhere near as valuable as a degree.
Eh...
1) Being a Monopoly is NOT illegal. How you wield you're power as a monopoly is what the issue is about.
2) Microsoft did things to prevent anyone from being a reasonable threat. example: microsoft made computer sellers ONLY sell there product on a machine or they would pull the manufactures license, they instituted "patches" that intentionally disabled competeing products, they released products for free with the intent of making it Very difficult if not impossible for competition.(then when the competition was crushed they would raise lisense fee to a "gouging" rate)
there is a finding of fact online that lists all these plus more, in greater detail. I'm sorry but I can't find the link.
the import thing to remember is no. 1.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
This is false economy. The actual price of software is small (I believe around %20) of the actual overall cost of a software system.
The rest of the costs come from training, immplementation and if things go wrong, downtime.
While obviously with free software you can save 20% straight away, any other small increases in the other areas immediatly counter this.
Personally I think that as Red Hat gets bigger and it gets more users economies of scale will bring these training costs down. Hopefully the users will hang around long enough for this to happen.
"Do you think we could wipe out world hunger forever if scientists figured out how to make AOL's Free CD's edible?"-
I agree that certification gives companies a no-less-than comparison, which is helpful, but by the same token the "You MUST be certified" attitude needs work. I may not be able to learn as much from a book as I can from your class, but I CAN (and have) gotten certified from one. It wasn't even a very immpressive book. I got my MCP in NT Server by reading NT Server MCSE for Dummies and playing with with a copy. It was not that hard. I have NEVER worked with NT server except on my home network for a week or two,and I never took a class. What does this say about the ceritifcation? Now granted, I am a fairly experienced Unix admin, and I work with NT workstation and Samba regularly, so maybe not anyone could have passed the test from a book, but it is certainly possible.
A big problem is the companies that REQUIRES certification to be considered. I have three years of experience supporting Microsoft systems. I have never taken a class, and my only MCP is in NT Server(which I don't use at work. I confuse myself sometimes). Why? Those bloody tests are expensive, and my current employer doesn't pay for them. I could be an MCSE easily, probably without a single class. I fancy that I know more about the administration of a Windows System than a newly minted MCSE, but there are companies out there that will look at my three years of experience and someone else's shiny new MCSE, and hire them first. The piece of paper has its uses, but at what point did it become more useful than real world experience? Note that I am not REALLY complaining here. I have a good job and I could afford to go get an MCSE if I really wanted to. If I was planning on leaving, I might, just for the resume. But (Ahh! I started a sentence with "but") what if I couldn't? How many companies would pass me up for the lack of letters after my name?
I don't need a million points of light, just two points of multi-mode fiber and a 10 Gig-E router.
I was at the last System Builder, and the reason that Microsoft didn't show up this time is because LAST time they were there they were boo'ed off the stage. Vendors were _extremely_ upset by the pricing that MS offers Dell for their Windows/Office bundle (about $175, versus, $450 for anyone else). It was so bad that the spokesperson could barely get a few words in before being shouted down. They eventually had to leave the stage...
Red hat is the leading company of the communistic scociety. and GREEN is there leader. he is a gay fag who thinks freeBSD is food, he should be flamed and then frozen and flamed again, bastard whore, hahahhahahahahhaa. Okeee, flame me now, yea, bizzzzzotch- heheh, brian is gay.
Beer.
If things were fair, Bill Gates would have to call into the Microsoft 900# for support.
Fight Spammers!
I was talking about open source and GNU/Linux to a couple a old timers at work today. They said.."no one ever got fired for buying IBM solutions". "Leadership", for the most part, basically took the blue pill a long time ago. Freedom is fought for, we just keep doing the best we can. I used to work for a software company that peddled custom ERP solutions. Our marketing guys were damn good. Often, the customers and even the SMEs buy the interface. Theses days it seems that functional requirements, by definition I suppose, rarely touch on architectural issues (OS / interoperability / etc..) in enough detail. Technical people are not often properly involved in the selection process and consultants always choose the safest bet for reputations sake (mind share). But the tide is slowly turning. The analysts will keep running the numbers and under pressure, the bean counters will keep insisting on reduced total cost of ownership. Jeepers.. we win in the end.. well,... that assumes we figure how to modify our economic models.. The "keys to the tank" are there for the taking and there are even several really nice virtual station wagon interfaces.. it's sick, but we'll have to get one of those tiered support models where the action figures can memorize the gnome clicks or whatever..
This is a point I never can seem to quite grasp, maybe someone here can help me out with this. If you can take the very same box and put either Redhat or Microsoft on it, exactly how can there be a monopoly? Wouldn't that be by it's very definition an open market?
I guess it bothers me a little when I know for a fact that my cable, phone, gas, and electric companies are bonafide monopolies, being that I honestly don't have a choice on which I purchase.
Here at home I run an NT Workstation and a Redhat 6.1 box sitting side by side with essentially the same hardware platform. If MS is a massive monopoly, how is this possible? Exactly what is the difference between being popular and being a monopoly anyway?
I know this seems like flame bait here and all, but I honestly don't get it.
The line must be drawn here. This far. No further.
Try buying a GW or Dell machine through a corporate or home user account w/o MS software and OS installed, and get back to me.
An outstanding point. One of the many reasons why I would never purchase a PC from Dell, GW, or any other proprietary vendor. Aside from having to pay for the licensing agreements that they signed up with, I'm far more comfortable with purchasing equipment made with off the shelf parts.
For what it's worth, perhaps very little here, I am responsible for purchasing all the computer equipment at my company. I've signed up an agreement with a local vendor who puts machines together for me from off the shelf parts, and puts a 3 year warranty on it to boot. If I request they leave the OS off, they do so, and I'm not charged for it. If I ask them to put it on, then they'll do that to.
There are thousands of vendors across the US that provide very similar service, as well as a number of on-line vendors. If Dell (or any other OEM) is giving you a hard time with licensing, don't use them! That's what the free market is about.
The line must be drawn here. This far. No further.
I agree that certification is meaningless ($DIETY knows I've seen my share of .*C.*'s that don't know their butt from their elbow), but the sad truth is that certification does help sell an organization's credibility to potential clients, and it does open doors for people looking for employers.
Where I work, I constantly hear whining about how meaningless certifications are, and yet when we hire, that's the first thing we look for.
Clueful customers may realize that certs are worth less than the paper they're printed upon, but IME, clueful customers are far and few between. And those that I have found, usually have a clueless PHB (with purse strings) that's easily impressed by indiscriminant use of acronyms.
The Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval doesn't mean anything, and yet it was a very successful marketing tool. Most certifications today are not much more than that.
-----
[1] eXtended Three Letter Acronym
[2] Five Letter Enhanced Acronym Syntax
then go to bandersnatch.com, then onto General Delivery University, fill in the blanks and print out a diploma for anything you wish.
"Open code, in other words, can be a check on state power." -Lawrence Lessig
This is sort of repetitive, but the actually there's no real reason to assume that Microsoft's low pricing indicates a loss leader. It could just be the result of the competitive advantage Microsoft reaps from having such a large scale operation. Basically, any product or service has two kinds of costs - fixed and marginal. Fixed costs are fixed (geddit?) but marginal costs are incurred for every additional delivery. So the fixed costs per unit fall with each additional delivery.
I bragged about my Karma at a job interview but I didn't get the job.
I tend to think of it this way - Are you more comfortable with a Ford certified mechanic doing a break job on your Explorer or the corner mechanic who learned by the seat of their pants? The same applies for contract programming for a client. To avoid risk I'd rather have the certified guy than the one without certification. Definately a CMA manuever. Also my chargout rate is better for work where I can claim my certification :)
You also have to realize that some of us have certs because not all employers are like you. I've got the standard nice little pile of certs and I got them solely to avoid 'sorry, HR requires that we get an MCSE' syndrome, after being in a situation where a prospective employer was forbidden from employing me by HR despite the fact that he thought I was the best candidate.
Yes, you're right, a cert doesn't show competancy in the job market, however you shouldn't declare that anybody who has one is inherently inferior. It's a flawed assumption.
----------------------------
The cost of buying RedHat GNU/linux:
$75
The cost of RHCE training for your IS employee:
$5000
The cost of being to sleep at night, knowing that your network is working:
priceless
"... Linux is going to continue to be all hype," said Mike Daher, vice president at MicroStandard Distributors.
..."
/usr/doc without paying a cent to anyone.
MicroStandard Distributors, in Redmond, Wash., is at
A little payola there maybe? Afraid any impact on Msft is going to effect the ol' local economy and the Redmond standard of living? We know boats are selling well there!
Well, Mike - unlike Msft, nobody's trying to FORCE you to utilize Linux - instead of bitching at a developers conference just install NT4 or 2K and call for all the support you want! It's really that simple.
When we went looking for NT4 cert training in 97 I was gasping at one local Institute that wanted nearly $10,000 for a complete set of instructor led courses!! And *I* had to go to THEIR classrooms! We eventually settled for a $1000 set of books/vid-tapes and lots of midnight oil, plus the $600 for the set of exams. Now that that will be obsolete in 12/2001, I get a dialy lesson out of
Self supporting, and darn good at it.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
I'm sure the airfare adds to the cost buy this is directly from Red Hat Training info
On top of all that, keep in mind that the company rep that said:
...happens to work for a company located in the same city as Microsoft, where it would be easy for MS to offer this type of service. I'm sure you can find someone down in NC who would be willing to give you the exact same article with a different point of view.
To be polite, I won't even rant about the idiot who thinks that the world should come to him when he wants something... oh, wait, just did. Darn.
"Great men are not always wise: neither do the aged understand judgement." Job 32:9
Let's face it. Certification only means something when those who do the hiring use it as criteria.
When I put on the job description that linux experience is a plus, and the resume says the guy is an RHCE, I'm going to do a quick assessment of whether RHCE is for real, and say 'okay, I'm reasonably satisfied that if he has his RHCE, he has some linux experience'.
The same goes for MCSE. Increasingly, I've seen companies stating they want 'experience with x and x and x MS products' and not 'MCSE required'. If you have MCSE, it may indicate that you have that experience. As many employers have found out, it also may not.
See, it's not that MCSE is bad, or evil, or anything like that.. you learn quite a bit about MS and how their products are supposed to work.
The problem is that far too many people come out of the course thinking 'okay, now I'm at the top of the hill, time to go take over some company's network'.
MCSE is a good requirement for a junior/intermediate admin position, for those who want a foot in the door in the IT field. It's far from the be-all-end-all of IT education. It's barely a beginning.
Redhat doesn't have the revenue, or the staff to offer the level of service Microsoft has. However, you can still recieve a high value product and have a lower total cost of ownership. These are real concerns, but companies need to look at the differing revenue structures and remember they didn't pay anything for their operating systems. When Redhat starts charging $300 per seat and per computer that can connect. They a company can have a reason to complain. For now, I have no pitty.
Geach
One should also take into consideration what they are learning AND how much it costs to do something with it.
Personally I'd rather have a $5000 training course and free software vs. a $2000 training and $1000/seat software. Hmmm, which is the "real" deal?
--
ba-bu-ba-ba-baaa, da-da-dum. Re-boot the ser-ver.
ba-bu-ba-ba-baaa, da-da-dum. Re-boot the ser-ver.
+&x
First Mr Daher complains that Redhats certification costs more than Microsoft, then he complains that his employees become employable anywhere with it?
What is the point and what does he want? A $2000 certification which is guaranteed not to make his employees more skilled? Or a $5000 that makes them attractive? I dont quite get the logic. Or, even worse, I do get the logic.
In the Real Computers world we usually go to courses to actually learn and become more valuable to the company (and the rest of the market), rather than to get a pretty paper. I can print my own pretty papers saying Im a certified whatever if I felt the need. Im sure Redhat could sell pretty papers too, and they probably will, once they realize that customers like Mr Daher arent interested in his employees being skilled (ouch, expensive to pay), just in them being 'certified' (good selling point). It's a classical scheme, selling unskilled personell straight from a 'want fries with that' job, slapping a certification on them and pretending they are 'computer consultants'.
Congratulations. For the final question in this $2000 certification program, once you have passed this exam you will become a certified:
a) Doughnut.
b) Peanut.
c) Nutcase.
d) RebootMonkey(tm)
I think you're right that a lot of us have expressed unbalanced perspectives on this issue. After all, it's not like every vendor certification program is like all the others. Nor is it true that self-directed learning works as well as the classroom setting for everyone.
But you've also expressed an unblanced view (albeit slightly less unbalanced). For example, your contention that classroom training with a good instructor is better than self-directed study is not always true. As an instructor, you must know as well as I do that different people learn differently. Some learn better by reading, some by doing. Some learn better with others in a classroom setting, and some learn better alone, at their own pace. We do best when we provide many different learning opportunities, rather than claiming that one will do it all for everyone. As businesspeople, we cut ourselves off from potentially great employees by insisting on only accepting those that are good at classroom work and passing tests.
It is also less than obvious to me that vendor-given tests are a valid way to determine whether someone has the knowledge necessary to perform a real-world job. These vendor-supplied tests only test for short-term rote memorization. It's rare that part of my job requires me to tell someone the definition of a relative distinguished name, or describe the differences between typeful and typeless naming.
As a former HR professional, I also know that, in reality, we're unlikely to see a move away from the 'alphabet soup after your name, or no work for you!' mentality. Looking for certifications is just too easy, as compared with using effective interviewing techniques to find those who will be the best persons for the job. It's a sad situation.
But I think we in the computer professions do ourselves a disservice by touting the alphabet soup mentality as the be-all and end-all when it comes to proving who is good enough. It can be a valid tool when the certification process is done properly, and when the certifications are viewed in the context of the whole person.
Let's not go off the deep end, either way.
There is an actual organization that does Linux Certification called Sair Linux and GNU certification that handles Linux Certification in more of a broad sense. Although I believe that RedHat has their own certification and I believe that it is actually called RedHat Linux Certified instead of just being Linux Certified (read the Sair FAQ #1).
The purpose for having these certifications to allow for people to be "Labeled" as certified, so that companies may feel more comfortable about hiring someone. If you screw up and are certified, at least the one that employed you had an excuse to hire you, and my be able to save their @$$. Now this may not hold true if you are certified by "Joe Schmoe Linux Certification". You need to be certified by a recognizable source.
Steven Rostedt
Steven Rostedt
-- Nevermind
Check out here. You have to be registered as a reseller with them, but that was pretty simple. They send you free course material, logos, marketing stuff, and when you "certify", you get a free copy of everything. They have a "free UNIX" promotion, but it's a limited license. What I got was a full-blown demo package containing a license for every piece of Open Server software.
This article seems to suggest that there is a real market for Linux certification. This could be a great business plan. Focus the marketing on the open-source aspects - why should Red Hat be the only ones to certify engineers? "We also support Debian, SUSE, etc..."
Publish the syllabus, sample papers and the pass mark to establish some credibility. Offer telephone support, charge substantially less than Red Hat and do your marketing on the net. Hell, do your tuition over the net. Now that could be fun.
Providing you maintain the integrity of the exam, you could do very well.
If someone wants to lend we some start-up cash, they can join in the IPO in two year's time. All I need is another few geeks with good interpersonal skills - whoops - that's the fatal flaw.
as many have pointed out, too often people see certification as a replacement for experience. without a doubt, i would hire someone with no certification and a few years experience than vice versa. certification means nothing to me, and if my employer hadn't paid for it for me, i would never in a million years be bothered with it. as it was, i didn't study for the win95 exam, and just a little for the win nt server exam, yet i still did ok (900+ out of 1000 on both).
but wait, there's more: i also have problems with the exams themselves. my main problem with them is that they do not test anything real, or even anything worth learning. the knowledge that you gain from working closely with windows boxen on a real, production network is not, for the most part, going to help you pass the certification exams. the win95 exam, for example, emphasized upgrading from dos/win3.1 to windows 95. who does that? nobody real.
i got my microso~1 certifications about two years ago (back when the win95 exam was still pretty current), after taking a few classes (not the official ms endorsed ones, but from a local university). my experience has been that the majority of the people in the classes, and therefore probably most people taking the exams, are in it for the money, not for the love of it. Ask anyone in the classes (and i did ask a bunch of them), and in the top 2 or 3 reasons for taking the class is 'more money.' wanting to make more money is not a bad thing in and of itself, of course; it's when more money is the primary motivation for taking the exams that you have to be wary.
of the people i saw week to week in my classes, there were almost none that i would have voluntarily worked with. they were all nice enough, but, almost without exception, were not really interested in what they were doing.
this is the crucial difference between microso~1 folks and the *nix folks, at least that i have found: the *nix folks tend to do it because they love it. yeah, you can make a decent (really decent in come cases) living out of it, but for many of us, that is secondary. no one that i know of administers nt networks for the love of it.
darren
Cthulhu for President!
(darren)
I'm surprised to find out that anyone gives a fsck about vendor "certification". I thought everyone had realized it was a meaningless scam by now. A week or two of training isn't going to get you any more knowledge than reading a good book (like an O'Reilly guide) and playing with the system a bit - and an O'Reilly guide is a hell of a lot cheaper.
From the article:
Not with knowledgable customers - or knowledgable potential employees.
In this market, skilled employees can move almost anywhere they want anytime, with or without certification. (Besides, isn't this contradictory to their complaint - Red Hat's certification sucks so bad that certified people suddenly have new opportunites arise and leave our company. Uh, yeah.)
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
Damn, I can't make it then as my printer won't even plug into my Linux box :-)
So I will start a rival Certification process in which I will send you the certificate if you answer the following question correctly
Q: After issuing the shutdown -h now command, what colour is the sky outside ?
and send me $50
And MY certification program includes a pointless newsletter written about gardening.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
How can it work WITH a _national_ testing system.. what is needed is an INTERNATIONAL system. And a place to get certified in europe and asia.
//rdj
No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
--Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
I must admit I like much more the vendor-neutral courses offered by Caldera, and the certificate offered by LPI, than RedHats proprietary (as in RedHat Linux-specific) course and certification. Finally there is a powerful, customizable, flexible, non-proprietary open-source OS, and I don't want to be a RedHat-specific engineer. If nothing else, I never liked RedHat Linux, dunno why, I still prefere Slackware.
Sigged!
Aren't CIOs of big companies required to know some grammar?
Sigged!
I think that's it's an important step for Red Hat to maintain a solid certification program if they're serious about competing with Microsoft in the marketplace. That's the only way that they can get the visibility to these companies who are implementing Red Hat Linux inside their organizations. Microsoft has used their MCSE certification program as an effective tool at providing inside support for their products and for pushing new products into organizations from the bottom up if you get what I mean. Red Hat stands to gain plenty from implementing a similar program. It gives their technicians credibility in an environment where management likely has no clue what skills to look for in their support people. Having certification also benefits the technicians by providing them with salary incentives by many employers.
The person that wrote this article quite obviously wasn't completely aware of all the facts. True, Microsoft "Certification" only costs $2000... but that's only for a general MCP certification. Not worth much in today's market depending on what product you are certified in. This certification also isn't really a good match to Red Hat's RHCE program. It's more of an apples to oranges comparison. Microsoft's MCSE certification is a much better comparison. This, however, requires 6 classes @ $2000/each - bringing the total to $12,000. Suddenly Red Hat's meager $5000 doesn't look so bad - with or without the trip to N.C. The author does bring up some good points about having engineers on your doorstep and pushing eval software and so on. But considering pretty much everything Red Hat makes is also available for free, I don't the eval argument has much weight. Having engineers on your doorstep is a questionable comment. I work in a large, enterprise Microsoft environment (57,000 users worldwide). I have yet to actually "see" any Microsoft engineers in relation to my job. I have spoken with them on the phone for support but that's about it. If the author is referring to MCSE's (Microsoft Certified System Engineers) that's another story. There are like millions of these guys nowadays... some are quite knowledgable, some are slightly better than having a $60.00 book at your disposal (if Red Hat is smart, they will examine and learn from this situation). I think that this argument is countered by the very existance of the RHCE program. This is exactly the kind of presence (well, not exactly but you know what I mean) that I think Red Hat is targeting with their certification.
"You have to get your key people certified on these operating systems," Daher said. "Our customers ask if we are, and certification gives our business more legitimacy. But look at it from our perspective: It's hard enough to find and keep talented IT people, and Red Hat is asking us not only to spend $5,000 a person, which eats heavily into our cost, but we also have to lose a $60,000 employee for two weeks, who after being certified, can move almost anywhere he wants, maybe even over to Red Hat. There aren't that many Linux-certified people out there."
Sounds like he just wants "paper engineers" to use as a marketing tool, and he's afraid that he won't be able to keep (often pronounced "don't want to pay") qualified people.
You can study for just about any certification wihout the full training run, however he'd rather send his people to a few-day course to learn the bare minimum as opposed to offering incentives to pass the test without expensive training.
He's got quit a dilemma here, though I'm not certified in anything, I hope Red Hat doesn't go the way of Microsoft and pass out valueless titles to people so these fly-by-night resellers can use them to "reassure" customers.
Let's do a little research here before complaining about RedHat's cost for certification. RedHat has 140 employees, whereas Microsoft has 30,000 employees. Slight difference, eh? MSCE's are in demand much more than RHCE's, like it or not, and as we know, demand should allow prices to fall, in the sense that tests can be streamlined. RedHat is still a very new company, and the fact that they've implemented a program so soon should be commended. If your employer values linux certification enough, they'll send you to NC, just as they would send you to a trade show that is relevent to your field. RH by no means has the resources to send a segment of its 140 employees globetrotting.
"In individuals, insanity is rare, but in groups, parties, nations, and epochs it is the rule." -Nietzsche
BTW, I generally don't hire folks with certification. It doesn't prove a damn thing... but it does tell me a lot about the person who touts such certification as being valuable.
I am one of those who intensely dislikes certifications of any kind. I believe that certifications simply make HR departments lazy. I would rather take the guy with 20 years experience and no certification than the guy with 2 years experience and an MCSE.
I am an RHCE. I got involved with Linux in November, 1998, went to RedHat and was certified in June, 1999. During those months I spent a small fortune on books from O'Reilly, installed several servers and played a heck of a lot.
So, I'm opposed to certification yet I'm certified. I got certified for two reasons. One, we wanted to become a RedHat VAR and we had to have an RHCE on staff to do so. The second reason is that I believe we Linux users are on the frontlines in something of a computing revolution, revolutionaries need things that make them look more credible. In a world that is used to seeing CNEs and MCSEs, an RHCE is a credibility enhancer.
Stand Fast,
Stand Fast,
tjg.
To quote a manager, "I don't want excuses--I want results!"
So Linux is a better solution than MS. Why? What makes it a better solution? Sure, it's a better OS. HOWEVER, if I'm implementing a platform, my idea of a "solution" goes far beyond just the OS. I'm looking at TCO, uptime, training, service, and support. If Red Hat can't provide me with these things at levels I consider acceptable, then maybe MS really is (gasp!) the better solution. (man, that was hard to say!) If they're going to charge me more for the poorer service, and then throw up stats (4% market share) at me, then screw 'em. Either give me a working, cost-effective solution, or don't waste my time.
Consider; I run linux at home. I really dislike MS products. For clients, I tend to recommend Solaris as a PC platform, because it's a stable, mature OS, with good support. Linux doesn't cut it in a lot of environments, and the support is a big reason!
OK, end of rant.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Certifications aren't a scam per se, but there is a marketing and profit center aspect to them. The idea of the MCSE was pretty much stolen from Novell way back when. Back in 92' my CNE instructor said that CNE was the greatest invention since sliced bread. You get people to pay you to do your support.
This is not say there is not value in the test. There was a time when a CNE was a pretty smart person. But the same problem with the CNE tests also exist for MCSE. The tests don't change much. The never changes. It makes it easier for people to slip by who really shouldn't.
Usually there are two types of people in the IT field. Those who have "it"...and those who don't. I've found that the longer time goes by the less you can rely on a Title to dictate knowledge or skill level. People can cram for a test. When they get on the job they slip. The more interviews I have with the "highly" qualified MCSE the more I find that they are being pumped through for profit schools and that they lack the down and dirty basic knowledge of the computer. And example is a MCSE whom was asked how to install a NIC card. His reply was that he'd have "PC Support" people do it.
I've found there are people who barely have a high school diploma that have a better understanding of what's going on inside the computer than a CompSci Major with an MCSE.
This is where I think CISCO does a good job. Tests based on real problems. Have the student configure the router. Send them out to lunch and mess with it. They pass if they can fix it. These are real problem solving skills that can't be taught from a Dummies book. You have to understand what's going on. NOT ONLY HOW TO CONFIGURE SOMETHING, BUT WHY YOU CONFIGURE IT THAT WAY. You either have it or you don't.
REDHAT is never going to have the same level of support cert as Microsoft. The reason? Microsoft . They own a chunk of Sylvin-Prometic. With out a national testing system willing to give the Redhat test how can it work?
I don't think it would take that long to build up the number of trainers. But you need a place to give the tests.
REDHAT is never going to have the same level of support cert as Microsoft. The reason? Microsoft . They own a chunk of Sylvin-Prometic. With out a national testing system willing to give the Redhat test how can it work?
I don't think it would take that long to build up the number of trainers. But you need a place to give the tests.
Soooooo
/. a little while ago) and this guy expects red Had to have the same training distribution system as the company with 90% market share.
Let me get this straight. Red Hat sells Linux. Linux has 4% market share (I read that on
Riiiight!
And he's annoyed that once their people get trained they'll leave for better jobs! Boo Hoo! So sad! The poor baby.
While we're at it, I'll complain about the Italian restaurant with great ambience two towns over being farther away and more expensive than McDonnalds.
I guess he'll just take his ball home and play by himself.
Are people really this dumb? Are there people out there who are that incapable of putting two and two together to figure out the "Why" of a thing before they complain? I don't complain about my Olds having fewer safety features than other cars. I don't complain about the gas mileage, I know what I've got and I work with it!
BTW: I wouldn't attribute the article to FUD. Just people complaining about everything not being exactly the way they want it to be. Sorta like my reaction every time my work computer crashes. "$%*&@$ MS OS!"
"Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
The tests are timed; you get three minutes for each question and can't stop, so make sure you have a block of uninterrupted time available.
The Professional Linux OpenCertification Project.
(PLOP).
just take the overall structure of the existing certifications and have the kommunity come up with realistic Q&A.
host it on valinux; it's free to study all questions and answers.
when you want to take the test, log in through a secure browser, pay valinux, and if you pass they send you a cert.
What so "wrong" with this picture?
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
Here's a newsflash for you. Some of the best and most loyal customers are not always the most knowledgeable. In those cases, a certification does help. There are a good number of employers that want to see certification as well.
In this market, skilled employees can move almost anywhere they want anytime, with or without certification.
Almost is the key word there. In some places, the job market is competitive. Some employers are real sticklers for exerience, and many are willing to waive some of their requirments if you show them a certification.
I have worked professionally on several different platforms. My *NIX clients never asked about any kind of certification. They were happy enough to find a developer that understood their system at all. My Win* clients had a bigger market to choose from. The certification served as a decent tool. I don't think that having a certification makes me more qualified than before. But now that I am certified, I know what I can expect certified individuals to know. I also know what I need to ask to gauge whether or not they can be useful developers.
Certifications have their uses. Wall ornements and toilet paper are only two uses, and probably not the best.
Network Security: It always comes down to a big guy with a gun.
San Francisco -CA, Santa Clara -CA, Portland -OR and Stockley Park Uxbridge- England
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
Note that I slao added that there are at least five other cities where you can get RedHat training. even better though, they should send one person (the best RedHat guy they currently have) to get certified and Examiner certified and then hold inhouse training and certification.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
This whole rant seems like people who complain mom and pop shops can't compete with Walmart in price or availability.
:-)), it's not particulary useful to say the equivalent of "hey, we're small -- we're supposed to suck!".
That's mostly true. But notice what: mom-and-pop shops around Walmarts have very low life expectancy, and the reasons for that have a lot to do with price and availability.
So given that we all like this particular mom-and-pop shop (hey, who's mom there?
seems like a misplaced complaint to say that Red Hat cannot compete with MS in certain ways. They can't. Get over it.
Well, if they can't, they'd better get off their ass pronto and do something about it. *I* will get over it, and *you* will get over it, but some middle manager at United Diapers will not see why *he* has to get over something -- so he'll go to Microsoft again.
To reiterate, if you think mom-and-pop vs Walmart comparison is valid, Red Hat better make sure it does not end up in exactly the same place where all these mom-and-pop shops have ended up.
Kaa
Kaa
Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
It seems to me that part of the problem is trying to fit the Linux/Open Source world into the corporate IT world of vendor certification (MSCE, CNE, etc.) Is Linus a "Certified Linux Engineer?" Is Alan Cox? Couldn't I deem myself a "Certified Linux Engineer" with as much legitimacy as Red Hat? (Anybody is welcome to join my Linux certification program. The prerequisite is that you must be able to use a Linux system to print yourself a pretty certificate. And send me $100.)
Yup, the MSCE cert is pretty easy, if you
A) Pay mucho dinero for classes and a cert, or
B) Realize that the general tests (Basic Net, Wkstn, Srvr, etc) that aren't app specific are _really easy_ and a quick d/l of the free practice test will do for prep. The only rub is that the tests cost more than AP/SATs from ETS (yikes!), but in the long run, this doesn't make much difference...
I was able to do most of them without even ociking up any study materials. It isn't that hard if you can think a little bit and pay attention when you are navving around your box.
I haven't looked into the linux cert details, but it seems to be much more worthwhile than a piece of paper that says "Hi, I can install NT as a PDC, and run Back Office!" (replace NT with W2K as needed)...
The difference between the MSCE and RHCE certs seems like the difference between an IT major and an engineering major - "here's what you can do" to "here's what you can do, how you can do it, why you want to do it, and how it works"
my $.05 (darn oil prices)
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
The Linux industry and community have whole-heartadly put their support behind the LPI certification. (http://www.lpi.org) This is an industry standard certification board, supported by Caldera, SuSE, TurboLinux, LinuxCare, IBM, SGI, VA Linux, and others that will prepare the certification candidate to be prepared on Linux... not just Red Hat. Individuals wishing to be prepared for Linux would be well served by visiting the above link.
:( ) and has been reported as true for the RHCE certification, of which I've had numerous friends attend.
Noteably absent from the above list of companies is Red Hat. As a member of the Linux community, Red Hat should be working with others to help define standards for the entire industry, and not just itself. Adopting a mindset of "We're the standard, so you play by our rules." is not what the community wants to see and is not the way to accomplish this goal. Whether you're a Debian, SuSE, TurboLinux, or Caldera user... standards are critical to us all. They help make each of our lives significantly easier. Staying cohesive as a group also gives us additional strength. It seems difficult to expect that one rogue straggler could ever succeed. As with Linux itself, our success will be based on the efforts of the larger Community more than just the efforts of one company.
Also, as anyone who has worked with a vendor's own certification program will know, most of those non-standard programs are used more for marketing than independant analysis of knowledge. ("You barked the right marketing bullets, here's a bone. Good boy!") This is certainly true for the MCSE certification process (of which I am certified and have seen firsthand
Anyway, the whole argument of whether RHCE is better than MCSE seems more religious and inflammatory than what can possibly be answered in this setting. Both certainly will have their positive and negative points. However, if we choose to support something vendor-neutral such as the LPI we can, as a community, address the weaknesses.
(My comments are my own and don't necessarily reflect the opinions of TurboLinux.)
Aaron McKee
Clustering Products Manager
TurboLinux, Inc.
Aaron McKee
Clustering Products Manager
TurboLinux, Inc.
"It's hard enough to find and keep talented IT people, and Red Hat is asking us not only to spend $5,000 a person, which eats heavily into our cost, but we also have to lose a $60,000 employee for two weeks, who after being certified, can move almost anywhere he wants, maybe even over to Red Hat. There aren't that many Linux-certified people out there."
This is the way my company feels about training. They would rather let me sit for 6 months toiling with a new concept, figure it out and start to use it than to send me on a 1 week course which would give me enough information to figure it out in a matter of weeks.
Their excuse is that if I get training I will leave, but what ends up happening is people get fed up with never being sent to learn new things but still expected to get the information so they leave and go somewhere that is interested in training people.
Now 6 months is a little extreme but I know some of our programmers toil for at least 6 months with some of this SAP crap before they become even remotely useful. Send them on a course or two over that 6 months and yo'd be getting a lot more work out of them.
I have no sympathy for someone who runs their company with that mentality. forgey
How many server licenses does Microsoft have to ram down corporate throats to make up the "loss" leader on the certification. Plus which, certified techs just further entrench Microsoft so their just an arm of Microsoft's marketing evangelism team...
That's just servers, and not to mention all the desktop copies that were sold on a per CPU basis whether you wanted one or not. I'm sorry I've gotten lost... what was that twerp bitching about? Was she complaining about getting ripped off? :)
I'm surprised no one has commented on the SCO certification. I'm SCO Open Server Certified. I took a 50-question multiple-choice test on their web site, for FREE, and they sent me a bunch of marketing stuff and one free copy of everything they sell. Do I KNOW anything about Open Server? Yeah, some. But I know Linux a LOT better. I can't get Linux certified though because I just can't justify the cost until I have some paying customers using it.
I'm sure the airfare adds to the cost buy this is directly from Red Hat Training info
Price:
The special introductory bundle price for this five-day course is $2,498 ($2099 for the training + $399 for the Certification Lab Exam, £1,599 in the UK).
Duration:
5 days
Training Start Time: 9:00 a.m.
Training End Time: 4:30-5:00PM (depending on class progress)
Training is also available through Global Knowledge.
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
OK, I usually allow posts like these to roll off the monitor, but not this time. Seems like every time there's a story on certification, the anti-cert contingent rolls out of the woodwork. Fine. Now let's hear from the other side of the aisle.
I'm not employed by any vendor, nor am I employed to teach any vendor's curriculum, although I once was: I still hold CNI certification in addition to the other alphabet soup that I could staple at the end of my .signature file. I say that so that those who want to dismiss my viewpoint simply because I have a certification can do so immediately.
I do contribute occasionally to the LPI project.
Let me put this as delicately as I can: you have no idea what you're talking about, if you believe that a person can learn just as much about a system they've not worked with from a book and some play time, as they can from an instructor-led class. Now, I'm not saying that all instructors ran their classes as well as I did (and I have the trust of several companies in this town who continue to ask for me, even though I haven't worked the classroom for over a year), but I can say that if an instructor is worth a damn, and most of us are, then the only way you can use a self-study book to outstrip participation in my class is to ignore me and the curriculum, and sleep in the back row. If you do that, it's your own fault. The concept of certification isn't to blame here. It's shitty implementation on the part of some, not all.
Oh, yeah, right. That's why vendor certification programs are so popular among the best and brightest companies and people. They certify because they want to know that all those who are certified have taken exams demonstrating that they all have a certain minimum level of knowledge. Not "competence". The best test in the world won't prevent a well-trained bozo from screwing up your server. Competence isn't just knowledge, it's also judgement, and quite honestly: character. The best people I've worked with knew when to say "I don't know" from behind their multiple certifications. They were the smart ones. But the truth is, companies want to have the ability to say, "OK, our people will know at least as much as a CNE", and be able to learn that about their employees (and potential new-hires) by looking at a certificate. Does that guarantee competence? Of course not! But given all else equal... training, opportunity, experience... I'm more likely to give the nod to a certified engineer, because I know she's proven herself in testing. That isn't the only factor I'd apply, of course, but it carries weight. And I'm knowledgable, thank you.
Stop knocking certification. You want to knock the programs, go ahead. The instructors? Go ahead, but be ready to back yourself up with hard evidence. The companies who use certification as their only criterion? Please, feel free, and I'll join you! But to slam on the idea of certification itself shows lack of understanding, not only in the realm of corporate hiring practices, but in human pshycology as well.
Believe nothing, not even if I say it, if it violates your sense of reason -- Buddha
I'm a MCSE myself and I've taught MCSE and Networking courses for over a year now. I've looked into taking the RHCE... though it looks great, I don't want to limit myself to a label anymore. But that is not what I wanted to say...
If you look at what the average MCSE learns and knows...
1) Learns what a kernel IS
2) Learns how to work with special GUI's to get done what they need.
3) Learns how to deal with a few special problems which require getting deep into the NOS's settings (the registry)... like I can count them on my finger.
4) You learn about the hardware you can use... and how to INSTALL the drivers.
Linux, is still (at least for now), inherently more difficult and to successfully understand and administer. You have to understand things on a much more detailed level.
1) You learn how to understand the messages that the Kernel spits at you... how to change on the kernel operates
2) You learn the cmd prompt utils needed to get your hands dirty. I don't have a argument for this one... just that everyone I have seen that has a understanding of (and especially those with a fetish for) can comprehend the hidden problems (when it comes to protocols or hardware) a whole lot quicker (less explaining needed).
3) You learn how to RTFM, something a MCSE may never learn...
4) You get into the details of every service and have to understand it at a technical level (because this is how all the documentation is written... I mean, its not just... do x y z, more like... do x because, y because, z because).
my 2c
- cyphunk
You should only have to pay $5K if you take all of RedHat's training classes (4 total). And then the price would be pretty much inline with MSCE and CNE training costs.
The actual RedHat certification test (RH302) is $750. If your people are already knowledgeable about UNIX, but not necessarily Linux or RedHat, then the best option is to send them to RH300 which is a week long "rapid track" training class that includes the test. RH300 is $2700.
As far as locations, now that RedHat has partnered with GlobalKnowledge, you should be able to find a training center fairly close to you. See http://am.globalknowledge.com/redhat/index.html for more info.. A quick check at the GK site shows that RH302 is being offered in TX, DC, MN, CA, MA, NJ and CO in the coming months.
BTW, I don't work for RedHat or GlobalKnowledge. It just so happens that I recently went through (and passed) RH300.
Ya, I went through it. Mostly because:
a) I could
b) My boss paid for it
c) I was at Red Hat the day they had their IPO
d) Nice ego boost, having used Linux for 8 years.
Anyway, the certification isn't easy unless you know Linux like the back of your hand. I can't really go into the details of the RHCE exam (hellooo NDA), but I'm pretty sure I can tell you that you *really* need to know what you're doing. It's more than just studying the manual the day before the exam and passing. Most of it isn't RH-specific, so if you knew Debian really well, you could take the week-long course and do just fine.
To be fair, I never took any of the CNE or MCSE exams, so I can't do a good comparison of the two.
-- Ever notice that fast-burning fuse looks exactly the same as slow-burning fuse? I didn't... (Edgar Montrose)
Sorry, but Red Hat is just a wee bit smaller than MS. They cannot yet afford to fly people all over the place. They cannot yet afford to have very low prices that come from immense volumes.
This whole rant seems like people who complain mom and pop shops can't compete with Walmart in price or availability. It takes little brainpower to realize why this is the case. But mom and pop shops have other benefits, such as more personalized service, and oftimes better product. So it just seems like a misplaced complaint to say that Red Hat cannot compete with MS in certain ways. They can't. Get over it.