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The Internet is America-centric, But for How Long
joshamania writes "There's an article on Yahoo entitled "Why the Net doesn't belong to America." The article references some good examples of "side-stepping" government regulation on the Internet. " This is gonna become much more important in upcoming years. What will it mean, and how will it affect all of us?
What do will it mean, and how will it effect all of us?
It do will mean we all do will stop do speaking English. Just like you do did demonstrate.
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This was a fairly informative article, and it brought up a good point. How are they going to regulate information and services which are illegal in some areas and legal in others? There are quite a few ways that this whole thing could go, this isnt the first time that a new medium has had trouble on a global scale. I think that the most likely course of action to be taken, is that individual nations will have to work together when governing Internet relations. Joel is right, I can't see a single orginization on Earth that could effectively govern the Internet. But it could (possibly) work if the Internet-capable nations of the world worked together, instead of for themselves, as the author pointed out. Sharkey
www.badassmofo.com
The information infrastructure of the European countries is far better developed than in most regions of the US. The major cities in US have great cable, but in Europe, 90% of the population, no matter where they live, will be able to connect through an xDSL connection within 1-2 years.
In my country, Denmark, all telephone centrals are digital, but I think only about 40% of US' telephone centrals are the same.
Anders Ebbesen
Countries with stricter porn laws, for example, will need to code computers to recognize the naked human (animal?) form, and ban such images/sites.
This is equally likely to happen as changing the laws...
Is the Government hurting business by trying to regulate the internet (which seems pretty impossible), or should they be able to have export controls over encryption, or online gambling in the US. Seems like any regulations that they do make are going to be darn hard to enforce, so should they even bother...
void theoremProver(){
print "this product is correct"
}
Apart from economic reasons, I think one major reason why the internet is so "Americanized" is due to language. Our forefathers probably never thought of this when they invented English, but it turned out that English is highly "digital friendly." Foreign sites such as Chinese or Japanese are always at a disadvantage in terms of growth, due to the way their language is written out. Until that is resolved through technology, I predict the internet will continue to serve up mostly American (and British) content. It's a pity.
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JavaScript tutorials scripts
So do we 'own' democracy the same way we 'own' the internet?
======================. http://www.nsacom.net | ======================'
Most citizens of non us countries hate the US to varying degrees, this is just another facet of that. The one good thing about US imperialism,
as opposed to say, British, is free speech. At least the internet isn't being censored by the government within our borders.
ICQ#2584116
-- d'arcy poirot
A quick thought....
Because an American invented the telephone, does that mean that we own the telephones in England? Do we own all the world's radios? The software (that Americans, you say, made) that runs the internet was _purchased_. The infrastructure of the internet in other countries is not owned by the US. The ideas behind it may have originated in the US, but the US in no way owns the internet, any more than we own telephone communication.
And you say that the US produces 99% of the hardware running the internet. This is completely untrue. I challenge you to find even one part of the computer you're sitting in front of that was made in the US.
So there.
Jim
>Only trouble is, a number of Australian porn
/. article before, but Canada has no restrictions regarding content on Internet sites, as stated in this document. Wanna set up a porn server? Try Toronto...
>sites have neatly sidestepped the regulations
>by having their sites hosted on U.S. servers.
Interesting point. I don't know if it was mentioned in a
Right now some countries are complaining about how english-centric the web is. We will be seeing more of spanish ( http://www.Quepasa.com ), Chinese, Japenese, German ( http://www.suse.de ), and the like.
Maybe this will provide the stimulis that the Europeans have on learning more than one language. With them is has always been the proximity of the different countries and lanquages. Now it is being brought right to our computer screen.
this isn't some stupid product, this is for some people a major change in the world. and as more and more countries start to have a bigger presence on the internet, they will begin making large contributions whether they know it or not. there will be larger amounts of server set up in other countries, fatter pipes, etc. and the whole thing will spread, and the traffic will flow there to.
anyhow, there's no reason for americans to be such uptight. the idea is to share information, right? it's hard to do that if we don't share access to the information, or if we discourage people from enjoying it and then making their own additions to this place.
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"don't smoke, don't drink, don't fuck
at least i can fucking think"
Minor Threat
While various counties cooperating across international boundaries sounds like a good concept, this is a fairly rudimentary analysis of the problem. Just as regional variations of public decency exist in the US they exist in even greater abundance across the globe. Are the standards that apply in San Francisco going to fly in China?? Most likely not. Porn is only the tip of this iceburg. The prevalance of filtering software compounds this problem. (Latin = cum for example.) The solution is not as simple as saying everyone play nice.
The US doesn't "own" the net as a whole, but US corporations own whopping big portions of it. And as long as that is the case, the net will be pretty US-Centric. And with inertia being what it is, this is not likely to change. Today, "getting on the net" in any kind of global manner means conforming to the current net culture. And current net culture is pretty damn US-centric, with some European culture thrown in for spice.
We probably will see some more "local" subsets of the internet based on local languages. But I suspect that most of these will remain just that, local subsets, while the main streets of the internet will remain pretty much like they are now.
Really, this is only one little piece of the cultural changes that are going on in the world. As the world shrinks, cultures get jammed together. And as they get jammed together, they tend to borrow from and/or absorb each other. This is really what the "Invasive American Culture" really is. And it isn't just a matter American culture swamping others. American culture itself is aquiring foreign elements. As "The Economist" noted last year, the two hot things among the eight-year-old set were a Japanese cartoon and a British book.
The cake is a pie
Jurisdictions will then have to compete to provide the level of protection that consumers actually want for their transactions and that the businesses want from lawsuits. The jurisdictions that can come up with the right amount of protection for the right price will attract the businesses. And businesses can actually set up servers in multiple locations and allow customers to select the level of legal protection they want.
The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
But the telephone was invented by a Canuck, Alexander Graham Bell.
As were many other awesome inventions, including of course Poutine (those crazy frogs).
"I build my canopy of steel.. it fulfills my sense of real.. a chrome protection" - Catherine Wheel
Denmark is a tiny speck. When you can say that all of Europe is all digital (much more comparable to size/pop of US), then your stetement will mean something. Also, we had phone switches installed decades before much of EU, whil you guys were still doing IP over yodeling for long distance comm.
Content filtering is hard. With text, how do you recognize the difference between the real thing and a discussion on filtering that contains the phrases used for filtering? With images, how do you tell the difference between naked people being pornographic and a medical site with pictures of various medical conditions. Articles on skin cancer will get filtered out.
The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
Except that I'll probably have to have 20% naked Canadian chicks to meet that domestic content rule. Anyone wanna see Celine Dion naked?
be something that people could surf in,
kind of like water. But utility companies
sell water as a commodity, and governments
own harbors and seaports and resevoirs.
But rain effects all of us. I wonder
how many people take their surfboards
into international waters.
Maybe spam=rain in the extended analogy.
Everybody has to put up with rain.
Or maybe the net in some places will become
cause Montezuma's revenge.
A greater man that I once said,
"Water, water everywhere, but
not a drop to drink"
Amazing magic tricks
Or Taco? I don't see how I could be a sellout without making any money off my site.
Say you have a document that contains "questionable" material and is therefore blocked from your sight, due to a cromulent school administration or parent etc. Would it be possible to, through a mirrorsite or something, to e.g. babelfish the offending document and download it in translation, and then return it to its original language?
This seems like a way to thwart censorware and pr0n blockers. Is there something I'm missing or is this a possible home remedy to censorware?
As translation programs get better you're sure to have less lexicon errors and idiomatic strangeness, and you could get documents from english to german to english mit nur ein bischen of error. Purple monkey farmhouse.
Just wondering. Flame away.
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Who says? By all accounts, the Net is having enormous success across countless areas of human endeavor - in business, education, communication, etc. Sure, the hodge-podge of differing MO's can be frustrating to deal with, but it pales in comparison to the benefits that are being realized.
Just another "the Internet is a globalizing force that will bring down the barriers... (blah blah blah)" article. Nothing new or interesting here as far as I can see... sorry!
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
Funny, after watching the slow-as-molasses action regarding the new TLD's over the past couple years, I've often thought of them as ICANN't.
Constitutionally Correct
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America only owns most of the internet used by Americans - ask a Frenchman, Japanese, Korean, Arab who owns their internet and they'll give you a different answer.
It's like saying Russia owns the sky because there are more there than anywhere else
It looks so because most sites from other countries that are non english are ignored. Ignored in search engines, ignored by readers. Another problem is domain naming. Most US based people believe that every site has to have a .com at the end, or its some type of a screwed thing. try to explain to someone that canoe.ca site is a valid site? I seen webboards that complained that I was spamming and not using my real email because it was @*.ca . Another trend that is bad, is domain squatting. Many sites haveto resort to .geographical sites (how many are there in the form of onet.com.pl ?) Internet is US based because US people are used to have it available to them at any time. Many Euro countries charge internet by telephone impulse (per minute) so its pretty expensive. Links inbetween Euro ISPs on the other hand are not as much saturated as between US ISPs and Co-Lo.. Another problem is that US has not many backbones linking to EU and ViceVersa.. Thats were US feels that EU has big lag on their servers, and is therefore backwards in technology. I dunno but could it be that all links from US are so slow becase Echelon cant handle any more bandwidth? Just look into how much software and how many sites that are worthwhile are usefull.. And how much portal crap you have from US? What percentage of Spam is US based? Now who is using internet how it should be and who is polluting it? Does polluting Internet with crap make sure the only way to be visible? I hope that US clears up their act and stops polluting internet with their SPAM and Portals crap, and behave as any other civilized country.
Just because the various governments of the United States cannot regulate every single aspect of the Internet does not mean the Internet will become less American. There is more to America than it's federal, state, and local governments. The largest infrastructure companies are all America-based and owned predominantly by American investors. The vast majority of "internet" companies are American ventures. Even the ones that aren't based in America and employing Americans are still more an reflection of imported American cultures and values than their native ones. Europe is full of exhortations to become more like America in order to be competitive. Even if the future Internet is run by companies based in Europe or somewhere else it will only be because they have traded in their European ideals for American ones. The Net is and will remain for the indefinite future "American".
Bjarne Stroustrup is from Denmark, he has moved to US... I'm able to mention several other Scandinavians who have moved to US...
Bottomline: The Europeans have the brains and the developer spirit. The Americans knows how to make money. Together, they make som pretty good programs.
Anders Ebbesen
From the article:
and the first international gathering of Net industry groups is earmarked to take place in Australia this December.
Are they going to allow reps from the adult industry, considering the meeting is in Australia? Like it or not, 'Adult' web pages are a huge part of the net.
The net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it. -- John Gilmore
Well I guess I should go back to 3rd grade... 'cause I rarely notice CmndrTaco make a grammatical error'... Who the hell cares anyway. We're not paying for Slashdot. I could see bitching if you paid 40 a day for /. on your door step :)
------- What exactly is real?
Must point out that at least per capita, the US is not the most connected country. Sweden surpasses all other countries both in percentage connected to the internet, and in number of wireless appliances.
Heh. :)
Anyway, my original point was that all the content rules simply don't apply, as decreed by the CRTC (our version of the FCC) recently. The link on my original post has the full press release. Interestingly, the CRTC doesn't consider transmissions on the Internet as broadcasting. I wonder how this will apply to legal decisions in the future...
It's all a damn good thing, too, since I sure don't wanna see that broomstick Dion naked. She needs to eat more.
Your comment is funny, but it illustrates a very real point. Language barriers are increasingly become a factor on the net because we are encountering people with whom we don't fluently share a common language more frequently. There are several consequence to this. The obvious one is the question of actually communicating with the people we do business with, or want to. Conveying our intentions clearly takes effort. The common vocabulary and context isn't reliably there.
But that leads to other, less obvious consequences. With large transactions, business to business, it is worthwhile to have lawyers on both sides review contracts. There will be an understanding. The contract will specify the remedies if there are disputes. Those will be spelled out in detail at least as great as the contracts for similar transactions that don't cross borders and mix languages.
For large numbers of smaller transactions, the cost of individually reviewing each contract in a number of languages would be prohibitive. That means that there will be some hassles when even well-meaning people have misunderstandings. Furthermore, the customer and the vendor aren't generally the only participants. There will be banks involved transferring funds and billing credit cards. The transaction has to pass muster in a language they can accept.
What about disputes? The merchandise I received wasn't what I expected, or it was damaged in shipping. That isn't a far-fetched scenario. I get things from Western Europe fairly regularly. Magazines get opened, boxes get crushed. So far nothing I've paid for has been damaged more severely than a crease. I've been lucky so far. But how are those disputes going to be handled? Will there be customer service reps available in a variety of languages?
The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
I thought that was funny until I read the subject. It's a small person who slams a person's mother, even smaller though, who does anonymously..
... *scratching head* OK.... Yahoo? I havent got anything for the site. And if I ever do get anything, itd go towards a server for it. And I dont see where you come off judgin' me about anything, you anonymous cowardly sonuvawhore. If I have to put up banners to keep my site alive, then WTF do you have a problem with? I don't even want them there, I dont want to make money off my site, if I did I'd run a damn pr0n site, that's where the money is. So if you want to come out from behind that curtain and have a match of wits, I'd be glad to. But until then shut your yap. Thank you and goodnight. Please tip your waitress.
> benefits democracy brings in terms of prosperity
Here you confuse democracy and the principles of free trade. The idea of free trade, by the way, was invented by a Scott, Adam Smith. American economic policy is largely based on ideas first described in Smith's "The Wealth of Nations."
Someone said Esperanto, but it's obvious that's going nowhere fast.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Not to mention the man that put US on the moon.... ...and the list goes on...
i guess i could have chilled out and not made an issue of it, it's just one of my pet peeves, alright? i mean, if he was talking to me and said it, i probably wouldn't have noticed, but since we read things on the web, we notice grammatical errors more, as our brains (at least mine) is functioning more when i read than when i listen. enough said.
note to self: don't bust on Taco's bad english from this day onward.
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This Post has been brought to you by the letter "E".
I'm well aware of the difference between "affect" and "effect". Read my quote of him again (don't read his originally--it's been changed).
BTW, to all the other people who have mentioned that despite my humor this is a serious topic: Yes. I know. That's what makes my post so funny.
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...he says while sitting on his potty wrapped up in his super-sized American Flag. Amerika über alles!
While you're there, ponder this: the "American Internet" was born out of paranoia, not love of freedom. Ever spent a moment considering what line of business DARPA is in? On the other hand, the Web--what most people subconsciously mean by "Internet"--was born in Europe, out of the need to share information. Not out of fear of the Soviets. Just something to think about there, Mr. Apple Pie...
Uwe Wolfgang Radu
What do you call someone who speaks three languages? Trilingual.
What do you call someone who speaks two languages? Bilingual.
What do you call someone who speaks one language? American. (badumpbump)
But, for whatever reason, almost everyone puts up with it. I'm American. I can speak American English fluently. I know snippets of Russian from high school. That's it. When I travel, I can almost always find someone to accomodate me. Quite often on newsgroups, mailing lists, bulletin boards, etc you find messages from [obviously] foreign users posting in broken English. I doubt that there are many Americans posting in broken German on c't's discussion threads.
Why are we allowed this "privledge"? I'm not going to project why that might be (mainly so as not to start a flame war), but it seems as though it is destined to stay this way (Americans, much to my embarassment, certainly aren't getting any smarter). The point isn't that Americans use more bandwidth or that a larger percentage of Americans are online. The point is that the Internet is set up and goverened pretty much however Americans (not that I mean to imply via popular vote) chose/choose.
I think it's pretty lame, myself. I don't like being the big, stupid bully.
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Send your friends messages of love at fuck-you.org
So do we 'own' democracy the same way we 'own' the internet?
/. owns the Net.
No, I own democracy (TM)(R)(C). I patented it last year. Al Gore owns the Internet.
Will in Seattle
when I hit the word "e-business" Christ, it's even more annoying than "Information Superhighway".
"Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig likes it."
Yes the Web is US-centric, and will likely remian so until (among other things) the US-based TLD's are removed, or at least forced to append a .us to their names, effectively pushing them up a notch.
.mil. There is some cross-over in the .edu domain, but a number of the other will definetly have to be changed.
AIR, the Russian parliament is also called the whitehouse, so why does whitehouse.gov point to 1600 Pennsylvania Ave? Same with
Oh well, just one more in the list of things that need to be fixed with 'net. Put it up on the chalkboard.
--sugarman--
> > So do we 'own' democracy the same way we 'own' the internet?
>
> England and France both observed our idea of
> democracy and tried to reverse-engineer it for
> their own use. Of course their implementations
> leave a great deal to be desired
If this _really_ what you were taught in school? I doubt it. Sounds to me like Microsoft explaining it has created the Internet, component programming and symbolic links.
Before making such absurd claims, please learn a bit about the roots of democracy, will you? Learn about what happened in Switzerland in the 13th century. Then learn about the English revolution and Cromwell. Then, the most important, learn about the 18th century and the Enlightenment, learn about who were the inspirators of Franklin, Jefferson and Washington.
Learn about Rousseau, Voltaire, Diderot and Paine. Learn about the American and the French revolution, and the birth of both republics. And then realize how absurd your ethnocentric "reverse-engineering" blabla is.
Until then, shut up and stay humble. It's a shame that an American like you doesn't even know the basic history of his own country.
Among other points :
> England and France are socialist countries, but
> if they didn't have crude forms of democracy in
> place they'd be much, much poorer than they are.
>
Never, never forget that, for all the smoke and bluster, US has way more many poors than France and continental Europe in general.
English was no more "forced" on the world than TCP/IP was "forced" onto the world. The Internet started in America. Thus, things were made English-and-American-centric. When non-Americans cared to join, it was easier for those people to join, rather than the ENITRE FRIGGIN' NET to change.
Does it mean that attempts to make the Internet more global are bad? Of course not. But claiming that English-centric codes were 'forced' on people just because they followed the path of least resistance is kind of silly. It's like claiming that the Japanese are 'forcing' me to learn Japanese should I care to go to Japan.
That said, English is a better choice for economy compared to, say, Chinese. Compare 26 characters, plus punctuation, to thousands of discrete characters. It's not a concern now, but once it was.
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These are *MY* opinions.
These are *MY* opinions.
They will not be *YOUR* opinions until the Orbital Mind Control Lasers are operati
I think English certainly is likely to remain the lingua franca, since there are so many Americans online and most of them don't speak any foreign language. So when we need to communicate with them the use of (broken) English is unavoidable.
Anyway, I think it's kind of cute when Americans try to pronounce Linux with a Finnish accent, since that's my mother tongue.
Must point out that at least per capita, the US is not the most connected country. Sweden surpasses all other countries both in percentage connected to the internet, and in number of wireless appliances.
I think Finland's catching up in the WAP metrics to Sweden, as is Norway.
But in terms of bandwidth, the US eats Sweden for lunch. When you add up the growth in DSL and Cable Modems and the number of sites located here, Sweden doesn't even show up on the map. Some of the nearby growth, such as Mexico, is so that spammers and sex sites can get around US restrictions, and thus is more due to the US market than anything else.
Will in Seattle
"English is the lingua franca of the world"
Familiarity with the meaning and origin of the phrase "lingua franca" renders the above hilarious.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
I think the important heart of the argument is this: America is the source of a substatianly large portion of all ideas over the past century - it's been the most successful of all memetic cultural beasts because of its strong support of pluralism. Is the Internet ours? Maybe - maybe not. But it's interesting to think what would have happened had the work started somewhere else - would the network ever have been opened to the public? Would it be as rampantly commercial? I don't know - but I don't think it would be on either count. The world acts like it hates us - and to a degree, the charges against us are correct. But we should remember that Europe, for all its strong culture, history, and intelligence, is for the most part a very, very biased society. Racial purity is not that taboo a concept beneath the surface there, and as far as cultural pluralism... well, the forces coming to a head in Austria may be being censured, but their ideas are only unpopular because they are government sponsored. The common people very much echo those ideas in their hearts, and I feel very safe in saying that though the ECU is rising, it will be a long time before anyone in Europe sees themselves as anything but a member of their nationality. The internet right now is the beginning of a cultural revolution - one that will encourage pluralism, individualism, and give free speech to anyone.. no matter what a government tries to do. In a sense, no matter how much it changes, America will always remain the owners of the Internet.. maybe not the physical America of the future, but this technology has managed only to spread our ideas and concepts further and more quickly than any means before. The spirit of America, the spirit that overrode the Nazis and Nippon, will spill into every place and every person - whether they acknowledge it or not.
Is that the international nature of the internet is going to force countries to get their acts together, recognize technology, talk to and deal with eachother, and try to get things working. No country wants to have its carefully crafted laws broken, but the internet makes it so that breaking a law is as easy as moving your box to a country where the laws are different. Some sort of national consensus will have to be reached, and I can't imagine the more open countries letting go of their freedoms. In the end, I think that this will force international law into a more open and more freedom-friendly state. It won't be perfect, because governments never are, but it will be a hell of a lot better than it is now.
If you're american and you want to make a difference now, learn another language, and make use of the parts of the net you normally pass over. Until I'm confident Babelfish doesn't mangle my words, and until it does Japanese, I will keep studying.
a) The main reason much of the world speaks english as a second and often first language is
:) and btw i like
...".. Just look at the variety
the fact that until some 50 years ago British
Empire owned a multitude of colonies everywhere
and therefore English was their offical language
for quite a while. At the same time them brits
being so important to world trade - their language
also became a common trade language. Aided by the
fact that english is very concise/precise as
opposed to many others - it is and will stay a
universal standard. But Americans got their
language domination ready made.
b) As to whitehouse issue, Russian parlament
is "belyi dom" which can be translated as a
whitehouse, but so can it be translated into
"bait lavan" , "casa blanka"
the latter most..:) As long as domain name
systems exists as it is (primitive single language
mapping of names into addresses) nothing can
solve real problems in it and changing suffixes
won't help either. What will help is a global
directory system where things are found as
per multiple names and attributes. That will also
help stop childish games of "whos the real Joe".
c) Internet as of now is divided in little
national nets with their own rules and lifes.
Russian net is vastly separate both connectionwise
and in terms of society from US which in terms
separate from European (and more subdivided into
other countries) and so on.
Their "e-commerce" (damn the word) is different
too with each country having their own products,
own companies on the web, own payments etc.
Just like you are not likely to order pizza from
Japan by phone being in New York, there is no
reason to do that just because you can access
pizza-hut.jp. I am sure you can call them too...
The internet is yet another tool that allows some
collaboration among countries and cultures but not
more then those cultures would *like* to
collaborate.
d) Cultures do not like to collaborate. Show me
one nation/country that *likes* any other
nation/country? Likes as in "those nice/good
bulgarians/indians/samoas/whatever" as opposed to
"damn
of directly hateful US posts for details. People
(in order to protect themselves) have to belong
to some "society/group" etc and the easiest/most
natural way to belong and differentiate from
others is hate. It is basic reaction that
evolution gave us for our own good.
Internet is not about to change that...
With this, i wish you all good luck and if you
succeed in making world a better place i will
come and visit.
It's kinda too bad that the US didn't cultivate some manners or modesty along with the "wealth and opportunity".
And all this from the country where they ban evolution...
"We don't need no microchips/ Inside out hockey pucks..."
-The Arrogant Worms
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It's not the rambling I object to, so much as the mumbled incoherancies...
We haven't had a USA vs Europe bashing article in quite some time !!!
Thanks slashdot !!!
Hates people who have stupid little sigs
Did you not mean that Microsoft is not going to incorporate "freeely available" bugs when they have 65,000 of the best programming bugs on Earth in their code already?
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
When you try something new, people in Europe have a good laugh at you, especially when you fail; and when you succeed they are so piss-jealous that they feel that they have the right to take it away from you, by any means, including sky-rocketing taxes.
There is something in European culture that wants to prevent you from succeeding in your plans; and it is all-pervasive across the people and the land. It sucks so hard: Can you heard the deep sucking sound of it?
Citizens in US apparently consider US = American... hellooo...
Well, yeah. What are supposed to call ourselves, Statesians? Unionists? (Oh yeah, try to get THAT one to go off in the ex-Confederate South) USies? Between-Cananda-and-Mexico-dwellers? Obnoxious? (Oh wait, that's what everyone else calls us.) Ummm... We could try pronouncing the Spanish E.E.U.U. for "eeewwwww".
Seriously, though, that whole "you think you're the only Americans?" business is a pet peeve of mine. We call ourselves Americans because we don't have a better name for ourselves. Since it is a name for the group of people that compose the dwellers of the U.S.A., and that is the group that we most commonly associate that name with, then, yes, we by default do assume that "Americans" just means us.
You have a point though about everyone stereotyping Europe for the actions of a country or two (especially when we have the facts wrong about that country in question). After all, what do you call an obnoxious person who insists on only speaking one language? I mean, we can't blame you all for the French. <grin>
If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
I love that movie.
Such is the infinite Grace of Popeye.
But really, unless a porn site or any other business puts their address on the page, how do you know if it's Australian or American or whatever?
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Sure we created it, but I don't think we own it any more. Any country that has access owns their own little part. I would imagine the French see the internet a bit differently than us because they start out with FRENCH search engines and FRENCH ISP web pages.
The internet is a connection of networks. The only reason the US seems to "own" the net is because we still have the largest number of sites and pages. Once the net grows some more I'm willing to bet you'll see other "centers" as some sort of critical mass is achieved for a certain country/language. No idea how the regulation across borders would work though. More treaties?
BTW, I find it humourous how much the arguing here sounds like Open source verses closed source. US owns vs The World (tm). US owns sounds so closed source (It's ours dammmit!!) verses "It's for everyone"
And yes I'm 'merican
Never understimate the power of human stupidity -Lazarus Long
The Internet, just like grits, should always be america-centric. Now if I can only figure out how to pur them both down my pants.....thank you.
I sincerely hope you are being sarcastic. Please excuse me if you are -- because taken literaly, your comment is no stupider than others in this thread. France, no arts ? Greece, no culture ? Japan, no technology ??? Sarcastic or not, that's damn funny ...
is not america-centric either. She'll do anyone. Now that is grits funny....thank you.
Gee, and all these years I thought Turing was British.
America owns 90% of the sites on the net and produces 99% of the software and hardware that runs it.
Isn't 98% of that content just bad free porn sites? ;-)
Anyway, Mr. 80m^H^H^H Anonymous Coward, do you have any comments about the huge numbers of warez sites outside the US? ;-)
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Your stupidity exposes itself. Back boy. Back to the fantasy world. Go on. Reallity could seriously hurt your opinion of yourself.
Tomorrow will be cancelled due to lack of interest
Very interesting read.
.us top level domain name. This would impact all commercial, government, non-profit and military organizations. You will also see sweeping state level legislation requiring all servers and user accounts to have a second level domain name with the state ID Someone in California will have an address of joeuser@aol.ca.us, even though AOL is not based in California (I think they are based in Texas?)
I think that you will soon (within 5 years) see legislation passed on the federal level requiring all servers residing on USA soil to use the
Once that is in place, broad legislation will be enacted to regulate everything from taxes, gambling, warez and pron distribution. All US based servers will be required to conform to a self rating system. Sites that are found to be improperly rated will get the owner punished. There will be no anonymously hosted US based web servers.
Once that is in place, Government Identification will be used for email addresses, regardless of ISP used. Your mail will follow you regardless of how you connect to the internet. Impersonation will be punishable. Anonymous browsing will be eliminated. Your government ID will be required for access to the internet.
This will come to pass under the guise of International commerce regulation, and then under the guise of Interstate commerce regulation (both of which are the US federal government's responsibility spelled out in the Constitution) Then the States will use the Regulation of Intrastate commerce regulation clauses written into each state compact or constitution.
My concern is that the border-disregarding nature of the internet will so frustrate separate governments that they solve the problem by consolidating.
Problem collecting sales tax on Oregan business's shipment to Louisiana resident? Wipe out all state sales taxes and replace with national sales tax. Might as well do away with state governments and make them all federal provinves while we're at it.
Selling to France instead of Louisiana? If it's physical it has to go through customs.
It's not physical? Better institute global telecommunications law enforcement authority.
There's a slippery slope ahead.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
The boat left and you weren't on it, you missed the fscking boat, and so did the author of that article!
It doesn't matter who started it, or where it started, or whos got the damn patent, the point is that it's a valuable tool. A tool that can help the great minds of the *world* communicate on a level in which there has been NO EQUAL! Furthermore - these great minds would form a system of education that can and WILL reach every person on the planet. Realize the POTENTIAL. How many Ben Franklins have never had a fucking chance!? How many Newtons never learned to write!? This is our chance to find every Einstein, Twain, Confusious, Wolfgang, and Plato - and nurture them with great thought.
You - who have been handed everything, has no concept of sharing. Whats worse is you don't seem to see how this selfishness hurts you. It is that mentality that has drown the potential of humanity in a sickly pool of ignorance and selfishness to this very day.
damn you - Step aside and let us PASS!
(NOTE: When i say _OUR_ chance - I mean HUMANS)
-V
Note that value is largely a matter of taste here. I'm not simply talking about value from trade. I'll never make a dime off my knowledge of french, but I think the value it would add to a trip there is far greater than the cost of maintaining my level in French
Europeans will place different values and costs of learning each others language depending on difficulty and frequency of contact, but it is not a matter of simply saying "I know 5 languages so I'm better than you".
In Miami, if you want to do business you have to speak Spanish. Americans down there learn Spanish without being "made" to. It really comes down to free market economics, and the market for languages is no difference. People will learn a a language if the value perceived exceeds the costs. (Including the cost of having people laugh hysterically when you make certain mistakes)
For another example, I have had a number of people tell me - don't learn Chinese - enough people speak english, and if you go over there (in this context, Hong Kong) it is easy to trade for the Chinese you need by hiring an interpreter. I guess what it comes down to is the cost of learning chinese (for me) is considerably greater than the cost of a Chinese to learn english. Ergo it is economical (for me, in my situation) to trade rather than invest time to learn.
As far as the internet is concerned, and I hope this paragraph brings me back on topic 8), I definitely value being able to look around French sites to keep up my knowledge of the language, and having access to French markets, particularly for books and music. What does this have to do with the price of tea in China? I guess to say that there will be more language collisions. Which will survive? Will many languages borrow more from English? These are questions for the sociolinguists, I guess. < /end ramble >
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You were a moderator with 5 points. You should have read the moderator guidelines before you did any moderating
First off the continental US is at least as large if not larger than Europe (not counting Russia). Not to mention the fact that the US population is much more dispersed than the European population and that would limit DSL right off. With so many people living away from the telecom's central office it is no wonder why DSL won't take off in most of the US. However don't discount cable by any means because cable companies are working hard to upgrade their infrastructures. I live in a fairly rural area of Virginia and we are supposed to be getting cable internet access 6 monthes to a year from now because we live in a neighborhood near a medium-sized ski resort. The biggest issue the US will have to face is rural and small town (50,000) users' innability to get affordable broadband access.
I hate to fall on the side of jingosim here...but...
Free society + capitalism = 99 % of all innovation in the 20thC by Americans and naturalized immigrants.
WE DO IDEAS THE OLD FASHIONED WAY.
WE ALLOW THEM.
Now as for all this MPAA, DMCA, UCITA, richies buying off the Roman Imperial Senate--ahem--err--lobbyists influencing Congress, you can take that particular piece of American Pie and shove it into the nearest subduction zone.
Everybody better wake the hell up. Congress and the Executive have exactly this much interest in the people: ZERO.
Republicans: negative (symbol for infinity negative?)
Democrats: 0.0000321
DOJ: Zero. Already rolling over to take it in the heinie from the Notorious Byll G.
ATF: Would you come out of your house if they knocked?
FBI: Bwahaahaaha! Let's see, their best catches have been due to:
A: A grieving brother, shamed into action
B: An alert Oklahoma cop.
Can't seem to find one little prick in a North Carolina Forest though...
The Supreme Court: the only surviving hope. A Republican admin...one appointment...forget Miranda, forget Roe v Wade, FORGET EVERYTHING.
DROP YOUR FREAKING STARBUCKS, TURN OFF ZDTV, AND FIGHT THIS TREND!
jeez.
And I don't want to hear some whiny punk in France bitch either. "Oh, America, all zee websites in zee Anglish, non non non..." Probably be too busy enjoying 8 weeks paid vacation and a 35 hr work week to get off your ass and INNOVATE.
HACK IT. COPY IT. PASS IT ON.
If the state fades away...we live as animals.
BECOME THE STATE.
L'etat c'est moi.
And you know how much I hate to use French...
It belongs to nobody and everybody. More or less you can access it when ever you want to and nobody can stop you and on the other side of the coin so can everyone else. More or less you can do whatever you want to and nobody can stop you and on the other side of the coin so can everyone else. Nobody can limit the content of anything anywhere on the Internet. When they try it just gets worse (DeCSS, Napster, gnutella). Natioal/Govermental/Geographical issues are becomming more irelevent to the Internet every day.
"National borders aren't even speed bumps on the Information Superhighway" - Tim May
Pay up or fuck off, that's the way I see it.
Like haggling over a bunch of bricks when you're building a mall?
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
First, after reading the article and then through the posts - gotta love a full-blown flame fest on /. (made MY Friday aft - I was thinking about the international air-traffic control system. IIRC, isn't Enlish the standard for all international flights? So, the 'net seems to be a bit like that. Now, there certainly ain't the safety factor, but there is some similarity.
/.!!!!!
Also, being a US citizen, I find it quite ironic that the US, being made up of folks from just about every other country in the world, is so isolationist and short-sighted when it comes to dealing with international issues like the 'net and regulation, etc.
Thirdly, for all those flamers and trolls out there spouting ultra-nationalist stuff, I was married to a lovely girl from Venezuela - she is, alas, the current ex-Mrs. Mackga (sniff) - I found it quite refreshing and educational being married to someone who's world-view did not center on the US. It's a big, varied planet out there, and the folks in the US have, for the most part, no clue just how diverse. EOS (end of sermon).
Once again, this thread has put a smile on my face and started my weekend off with a good chuckle or two. Thanks
"shop smart:shop s-mart" ash
Thank you, thank you, thank you, everyone!
I've not laughed so much in a long time. I'm
not sure who is trolling and who is not, but it sure is funny.
you will not be tricked - ok, what did you contribute, how many jerry springer shows did you appear on? you didnt earn it - it was HANDED to you. Can someone tell me why i even bothered to assist this fool in his notions? It's like stapling jello to a tree. -V
You missed the point that the US has a very high percentage of people behind bars, and there's still a high crimerate.
Tomorrow will be cancelled due to lack of interest
Wrong.
Greeks. Deeply sorry to burst that bubbgle? Oh no was it your ego?
Again, wrong. The Constitution is here to protect our rights in case the government is illegally hijacked by psychotic criminals like Bill Clinton.
The fact that you need a 66% majority in many government decisions supports the idea of a toned down democracy. So does the 3-way separation of powers. Read your history again.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
The thing is, the US has a lot more "rural" areas than Europe does, and so this problem of having to support the rural areas even though it is not profitable is actually worse in the US than in Europe. In practice, what ends up happening is that the urban utility costs are a bit higher than they would otherwise need to be, in order to subsidise the rural areas that are operating at a loss. It's expensive to provide service when there's only about 1 house per 20 telephone poles.
That's also one of the main reasons US network technology is a bit behind the times. It's terribly expensive to replace all those old wires with something better.
It's the same story with public transportation. many Europeans chide the US for having an almost non-existant public transit system, but they forget that our cities aren't as dense. In the few places where they are, such as New York, there is quite a bit more public transit than in the rest of the country, and people prefer not to drive themselves. But it is very inefficient to run busses or trains out to suburbs for commuters unless they are all going to the same place (which of course, they aren't).
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
First, let me say that this is another nice 'gloom and doom' article from the National Enquirer of computer news, ZDNet.
Ok, now that THAT'S off my chest... some of this can be 'countered' by self policing. Ebay and AIM are two examples of self-policing, albeit that the risks can be low. Other 'commercial' sites are also using the third party 'e-biz' rating system for their ecommerce site. As more of this type of thing becomes common, the international e-commerce risks will be reduced, as long as you know what to look for...
Remember, the first time someone bought things from the back of a van, only to find out later it was stolen, or fake, was a lesson learned, and now it's a fairly well known warning...
Also keep in mind that ANY shopping is a risk, especially 'remote' credit card transactions. Heck, sitting in a restaurant and giving the waiter your credit card for payment is a risk. The best you can hope for is to minimize your risks, but you'll never be able to eliminate them.
But hey, I could rationalize myself out of a paper bag if I wanted to..
-- You can't idiot-proof anything, because they're always coming out with better idiots.
Clearly, you know nothing about history, since it is the US who created and maintained most 'petty agricultural dictatorships' in this century. Nicaragua. Guatemala. Pre-revolutionary Cuba. Chile (Hmm... who financed Pinochet?) Get your facts straight. Straight meaning, not out of an american high school textbook.
Sure, you can get a good hookup in a "remote" location up in the mountains, but just how "remote" is that, really? How many kilometers away is the nearest sizable city (population over 100,000). How far away is the nearest major city over 1 million?
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
Because there is no way of separating the jokes in this discussion from the serious posts... What you consider jokes, is what other Americans consider truths.
Tomorrow will be cancelled due to lack of interest
foo.ca = foo in Canbada foo.ca.us = foo in California,United States of America IHTHAL
Linus? He had a swedish accent? Nice... What about his finnish accent?
Tomorrow will be cancelled due to lack of interest
2...insightful...to 1...troll...ouch... (cut...cut...cut) (sounds of shredded Constitution droppiing to the floor...) heh...heh...oh, well...
Most non-American posters whine about the size if Americas ego. In my opinion our ego isn't big at all. Our actual accomplishments far exceed what we brag about. Many complain that Americans have no sense of the other person(in this case person being country). Most only speak one language, don't know much about world history, and for the most part don't care. Why is this? Perhaps we should attempt to go to the cause of the problem instead of focusing on the effects.
The first question to ask is: What makes the world go around? The answer: Economics. Face the facts, the economic center of the world is America. America controls the vast majority of the economy. In recent times the world has seen many smaller countries economies decline, while the US economy has remained strong. The reason? For the most part America is pretty much self-sustaining. As an example: The son of a real estate broker, I can appreciate the value of agriculture. Most of the food in the world is produced in the US, more specifically California (We just have everything here don't we :-)). So, when Europe becomes the center of economics, I will gladly learn French, German, Italian or any other language necessary (Already speak Spanish).
The next thing which forces the world to be world to be America-centric is our level of technological achievment. Our laisse-faire economic system has led to many great break throughs. Are technological presence in all fields has allowed America to be on the cutting edge. As older technologies become obsolete people migrate to the new. This forces the world to focus on America. As e-commerce becomes more popular and as the net culture branches out the net will become less America-centric. But, at the cost of using the same ideals and pricipals that has made the world America-centric.
Wigs
--The less a statesman amounts to, the more he loves the flag. -- Kin Hubbard
Science Fiction writers often proposed in
the future a global worldly organization ruling
the entire Earth.
As we see, with amount of countries rather more
increasing in the past years than diminishing,
probably the human nature and the desire for
power, even in a smaller space, makes this idea
of the writers to fail.
But, with global Internet everywhere, a true
central ruling organization of the entire
Internet must appear. It should be, for its own
good be more interested and focused on the
prosperity of the Internet as a whole and not
lobbying interests of specific countries, since
Internet has already wiped many of borders.
Then, if such organization gains momentum and power
because more of our everyday life becomes wired to
the data communications it may start forcing the
governments of the countries going the organization's
way and turning into the ruling organ the science
fiction writers dreamed of.
Now, what we need iz our own Zaphod Beeblebrox.
-- "If you had fallen into a shit pit during a battle, lick yourself off and move on." - Jaroslav Hasek
Your point being that the OJ Simpson case is fiction? If you knew what an example was you'd understand... but obviously you want me to research to find and give you a comprehensive list of every court case bought in America. Sorry I don't have enough lifetimes to spend.
Tomorrow will be cancelled due to lack of interest
You are incorrect, and correct.
From britannica.com :
"Oceania has traditionally been divided into four parts: Australasia (Australia and New Zealand), Melanesia, Micronesia, and Polynesia"
Australia IS part of Oceania (you are incorrect), and Oceania is not a continent (you are correct).
According to Britannica there are seven continents, sometimes six if you lump Europe and Asia into Eurasia.
The continents are :
Asia, Europe, Africa, North America, South America, Antartica, Australia
I'm originally from Australia, and I'd like to go back there. Not everyone is a wannabee American. ( btw, most of the immigration into the US is from the third world -- China, India and Mexico. I can understand why those guys wanna get out. )
Let's not forget that only 25% of the world's population speaks English. Basically, if you don't have a multilingual website then you don't "get" the Internet. In a year or two English speakers will be swamped by all of the other languages on the net, primarily Spanish. Get used to it. Right now towerofbabel.com is the world's best kept secret. It will only be a year or two before it finally gets the attention it deserves. Gold rush? You ain't seen nothing yet.
My name is Carlos Montoya. You share files of my music. Prepare to die.
According to the National Post last week, every school in Canada is already connected to the internet. Not bad, eh?
I'm stilling looking for a way to get connected to that national network that is 60 times faster than Al Gore's Internet 2.
I lived in Denver for three years. I spent many hours on international phonecalls. AT&T effectively charged my an extra 30 secs a phone call as they billed by the minute. My monthly US West phone bill was more than my quarterly phone bill from British Telecom. Somehow US West is a worse telephone company than BT. BT provided free standard features such as the equivalent of *69, for which US West charged 75c a go.
Bravo! Nice to see an American who doesn't have time for mindless nationalism (of whatever nation). Unfortunately, the yahoos out there often give the impression that *all* Americans are that way.
And while we are identifying our national origins, just for the record I am Canadian, and proud to be so. I also served in our Armed Forces (such as they are - good but waaaaay too small and underequiped.). I can't stand mindless support of any nation by any citizen - even if they are Canadian. Our government does stupid things, so does yours. Our culture has its disreputable elements - so does yours. Some of our laws suck, and so do yours. Any everyone elses.
I personally think the time is coming when we need to stop thinking nationally and start thinking globally.
"The first time I got drunk, I got married. The second time I bought a chimpanzee, after that I stayed sober" Arian Seid
I find the current situation of the internet (no one in charge) to be absolutely tremendous, and I'm counting on the combined incompetence of the world's bureaucrats to keep it that way.
Really, what are the current harms?
No taxation -- ooh, ouch, please stop!
Too much porn/gambling/fraud -- like international standards are really going to cure this, and like it's worth having our free speech go away along with them?
Too little consumer/privacy protection -- laws and regulations will do much less good here than tools, security, open standards (to ensure tools don't hide nasty surprises), and disclosure (remember the free speech bit?)
The article ends with a comment about an international conference to deal with this: "let's hope it starts something."
Let's not.
"You can't get something for nothing." - my grandfather, on the stock market and Reaganomics.
Jeff
Jeff
have any of you guys out side of America ever been in a General chat room and some ones sia d'oh lets do this on sunday at 10am' and youve siad what time zone are you in and they say 'oh EST'
after lenght discusions on how hte world is round with these ppl and why we have GMT all i ever get back is 'EST you f*ing find out whaat it is' they seem to refuse to even look up wht GMT there in..
You have 5 Moderator Points!
Which Helpless Linux zealot/MS basher do you want to mod down today?
Far out; I didn't realize Rush Limbaugh read /. Pretty cool.
"How many light bulbs does it take to change a person?" --BMcC-->
I seem to recall Konrad Hilbers (CEO AOL Europe) saying something like this at the ISP2000:
"The relationship between Europe and America is no longer a copy-and-paste one"
Meaning that apparently, we (the Europeans)'ve been copying America excessively.
So much for 2000 years of cultural history...
www.e.magazine.dk
www.e.magazine.dk
> would the UK be a democratic state without such values?
Yes, it would. Not a very good one, but still democratic. Generally their government has much more power in doing things for the so-called 'common good', like arresting writers who heavily critize the military, for example. Except for the Scandanavian countries, mainland Europe is much the same (Germany's censors are heinous *shudder*).
ICQ#2584116
-- d'arcy poirot
By all means, pass us. If you think you can get up the speed. America doesn't set the speed limit for the world. There are lots of things that the US hasn't done yet. Despite what your facist dictator will tell you, it's a free world out there.
You - who have been handed everything, has no concept of sharing. Whats worse is you don't seem to see how this selfishness hurts you.
Sharing, so that's what you call taxes over there. And no, I don't see how this selfishness hurts me. For those that are in a generous mood, we have a thing called charity. We value these things called choices. See our government actually lets us choose where our money will go.
Wigs
--Whatever happened to Preparations A through G?
right.... i've lived in the US my whole life, i don't owe you, or this country anything. i hate to break it to you. and it may have helped the economy, but we could have helped it a lot more if we didn't pay them like slaves.
Pay up or fuck off, that's the way I see it
ok, please take your own advice. or get off your high horse.
i'm sorry, this is dumb, not wanting to share is just childish and we should not be dicks about it.
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"don't smoke, don't drink, don't fuck
at least i can fucking think"
Minor Threat
I saw a funny string of commercials the other day...
:)
first one: "Online gambling is bad, you'll end up broke"
second one: "Here's a new game from the michigan lottery..."
I think mainly they're concerned that they'll lose suck^H^H^H^Hcustomers.
I bet there's more bears in your hometown than there are dingos in mine, if you get my drift. As for "we'll run the show", this kind of nationalist mentality is good for people with small penises. I bet you are not one of the guys "running the show".
Democracy is said to be invented in Greece. I'm not sure whether that is true or not, but that patent claim is backed up better than yours. :-) are cut'n'pasted from the ancient Rome. So are ours in Europe. We're not better.
As of owning the software, THIS IS SLASHDOT, man! Period. And if you make a trip to Europe, just visit the ruins of the Roman Empire with an appropriate guide (or read some books on it sitting in your cozy home), and find out that most of your institutions (including the goddamn INS which doesn't let me work in U.S.
What to expect from "socialist education"? :-). That's what.
Just take a look at the last ACM Collegiate Programming contest (no link to click on
WOW!!! We had that in the USSR too! The unbreakable union of freeborn republics was a comingling of pure democracy?
Anyway, I can read the irony (trolling?) in your posts, I don't take them seriously and laugh along with you on those who do.
hate to say it, but i've never bought the premise that the internet is "anything-centric".
sure, a lot of people were here first, mostly white american males, but there is absolutely no barrier to entry unless (for whatever reason) you can't operate a computer, or you lack the necessary resources to access one.
in either exclusionary case, it is not the fault of the internet that you are excluded.
face it, a black senegalese one-armed lesbian midget, complete with clitoral piercing, eye patch and kung-fu grip, can access the internet about as well as anyone else.
and all this crap about what country invented what/when...grow a dick (i'm a fine one to talk!) countries invent all kinds of things as time passes. the USA gained a massive benefit of land and resources after the virtual extermination of the native inhabitants -- a couple hundred years ago. given that, it's natural the USA would make great advances, as other countries have in the past, given the same set of circumstances.
but can the USA produce cars of as high a quality as Japan or Germany? i've driven a mercedes...wow. you can drive for hours and just step out of it like you only drove a few minutes. Does the USA give it's people medical care at the level of the other "first world" countries? Do we treat our people as anything other than "expensive cattle" to be used as nothing more than a means to drastically enrich the pockets of about 5% of the USA's citizens?
of all the things invented by europeans, but has yet to be discovered by the USA, is a basic respect and care for your neighbors and fellow citizens. how much "technological advance" is that worth?
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
Keaton, in Gung Ho!, although the title character doesn't appear in the movie. ;)
(I figured a cultural joke would be best placed in a cultural thread, if you don't get it...sorry)
--
+&x
Over here in Australia, we have to pay to send data to the US, and then we have to pay to receive it.
America pays nothing to send data to Australia, and then pays nothing to receive data from Australia.
This is hardly equitable, and will continue as long as the Internet is centred on America. What incentive do they have to pay for any international transit?
Absolutely, but they don't infringe on our free speech rights, just other ones ;)
ICQ#2584116
-- d'arcy poirot
I can see good and bad things in America, but I have to admit that we ape America in many ways in Europe. Belive or not, America-bashing is one of them. I've learnt it here.
Could you point us towards some evidence for you claims about Australian crime rates? And if you suggest something from the NRA or their Australian equivalent, I for one will laugh in your face (or should that be fart? Something disrespectful, anyway). You might want to try the Australian Beaureau of Statistics - they tend to have that sort of information redily available.
Until you provide some evidence, I intend to keep on supporting the gun-control laws in this country, on the grounds that guns are too dangerous to be readily available - it should be difficult to get hold of a gun, for whatever reason you feel you need it. That should at least make it a little bit harder for depressed teenagers to top themselves, or for pissed off spouses to knock off their better halves, or any of the other common gun crimes. Armed robbery isn't that common, you know - possibly because we have a culture where the idea of using guns is considered a tad, shall we say, extreme . . . I rather like this culture, by the way, so telling me it's pathetic is going to go down like a lead balloon, as will telling me that it's not free, that I'm being repressed by my government (the ones that I voted against, by the way - when was the last time you voted?), or any of the other common arguments. I'm as free as you are, in pretty much the same way that any license that meets the OSD is free - past a certain point, the extras don't matter. Your freedom to bear arms is one of those extras, that just aren't important to me, so my lack of freedom in that respect doesn't count as an impingement of my freedoms, nor should it.
Well, that was going to be a nice short disposal of you rather stupid post . . . Ah well, it's always nice to rant about something like this . . .
himi
--
My very own DeCSS mirror.
to you and the few other 'peans (as it were), who can add a bit more perspective for those of us in the U.S. who are looking for it. It's something we are NOT exposed to on a regular basis (actually I think the 'Net is about the only place you'll find it). We live in a bubble here, a big nice one, but a bubble nonetheless.
--
+&x
It's a bit scary discovering an American who actually has a brain attached to the fingers that do all that typing . . . It makes it so much harder for me to loath "all those bloody yanks" . . . ;-)
Seriously though, is the US _really_ that insular? Or is it just that the ones with no brain are the ones that don't stop to think before saying/doing things, and hence tend to be loudest? Enquiring minds want to know . . .
himi
--
My very own DeCSS mirror.
"i refuse to waste time on you 'peans."
You don't seem to know the difference between Australia and Europe . . . That is a real achievement, as far as stupidity/ignorance goes . . .
Have you ever wondered why the rest of the world thinks the US is full of dumb fucks? Try reading your own post . . .
himi
--
My very own DeCSS mirror.
The big economic powers are behind the Internet. It's not owned by any one nation. The infrastructure is owned by each country it passes through. The US was simply the nation lucky enough to be behind the development and the initial push. Hence the lingua franca English. I'm not going to deride anyone's english skills -- except the morons who speak it as their native tongue and can't spell or form whole sentences -- in any communication. Ich spreche ein bisschen Deutch from my three years in high school, but there's a lot I don't remember. It's ironic to think that the US military was originally behind this tool of global freedom. That and the 'God given right' to freedom, liberty, free speech, free beer, etc. can rub the wrong way sometimes. This again is a cultural thing. Other nations don't value freedom any less, but their strengths it seems lies more in a feeling of community. All nations need indiviual rights *and* community responsibilities. Any country that fails this test will be routed around.
The party's over
You know, that is a really broken argument. For a start, the US didn't invent everything in the world, by such a long margin that it's not even funny. The US didn't even invent all the networking technology out there - ISDN was developed (IIRC) by a European company, as an example that I can think of right now.
Secondly, you seem to be looking at the world from a very US centered position, so that you end up either ignoring or literally not seeing all the stuff that _isn't_ about the US - you heard lots of American music while you were in France, but you probably didn't even listen to anything that wasn't American, or very strongly influenced by American music. Likewise with the news, and with the movies you watched, and so forth.
This is the bit that really gets on my nerves:
"I'm not oblivious to the fact that there are other people in the world. I'm just saying that America rules while everyone else drools. There are lots of things (not just the internet) that many people have. That doesn't mean that they aren't America-centric, or didn't come from America."
To paraphrase: "Yeah, I know there are other people out there, but I couldn't give a damn about them. They're not Americans, and hey, they use all this stuff that Americans came up with, and they listen to our music and watch our movies, so it doesn't make any difference, does it? America's just waaay better . . . "
Do you know how stupid that makes you sound? This kind of argument is the reason why most of the world loathes the US - the US seems to think that the world exists either for them to use/abuse/whatever, or that it's too unimportant for them to worry about. That's incredibly offensive for the rest of the world. It's like there's this really big chunk of the world that has it's head so far up it's arse that it doesn't even know that anything other than shit exists - and the rest of the world, because the US just happens to be big enough and rich enough to get away with it, has got to keep on taking this shit. That's what Ozjimbob was talking about when he said you should think outside the square - he meant that you should get your head out of your arse and look around for a bit.
Of course, he was much more polite about it . . .
himi
I love ranting about the US - it's such a large target that you can't miss . . .
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My very own DeCSS mirror.
Regarding language the world or the net is not US-centric, it is English-centric. Most of the worlds English speakers are not American, which reveals an amusing US-centric touch to that accusation of US-centricness :-)
Anyway, the world is well on its way to become a one language zone. That language will be english. The lack of interest from native english speakers to learn other languages is entirely sensible. Why should they? To be polite to other nations? Nobody learns english to be polite!
In other regards the world is mercilessly anti american. The arcane US measurments "system" will be crushed by the metric system over the next few decades in a painful and pathetic process. And it will be for the same reason that english will take over as world language.
OK, if I haven't convinced you yet, surely this fact will be the killer. Wait for it. A little more. OK, here: I'm not a native english speaker myself!!
Trolling? Hell No! I was deep sea fishing.
Well, the "facist dictator" part was perhaps a little bit overkill. When I grew up, my parents always told me I had to abide by their rules, because I was in there(told you it was late) house.(No, I'm not blaming my parents, it's just an example.) See, they are like the facist dictators. They might say that, but really it's a free world.
Actually, I'm not brainwashed. I just have my head up my ass. Or at least that's what your other AC friends have said. I've actually visited parts of the world outside the Bible Belt myself. I've been to almost all of the 50 states, including Cambride MA. I live in California, and attend college in Florida. I've been to a few other countries as well. (Not including Mexico and Canada.) I consider myself an educated person, and have formed my opinions based on my observations during my travels.
Wigs
The problem with the Internet is really related to the mean IQ of Wired-Planet-Earth.
It sounds very reasonable and logical to say that the internet must have one governing body, which governs based on the concerns of all countries accross the globe.
I would hope there was a governing body which said "NO" to censorship on the internet and Taxation. On the other hand, the United Nations can't even stop America from going to war. And when it really comes down to it, America is free to do what it wishes unless someone wishes to go and physically fight the most powerful Army in the world. An army which has dropped "The Bomb" Twice.
I doubt wars will be fought over Americas harmless attempts to ruin the lives of "Hackers", and "Deviants" (you and me) everyday. In fact, I bet with 1 standards association, the US Government would set all standards in a fair and democratic way; (and) profit by them hand over foot. Encryption standards would be made international, though standard encryption, or better is developed in foreign countries already. In return the US would charge royalties on MP3s transferred accross the globe. Not just locally.
At the moment, I believe the legal-loophole of Internationalization is the only way to save the internet, and keep it free for all to use and enjoy. If one government believes it can regulate a medium which is at its core the true essence of Human interaction and developement, then let them. I'll move my DECSS code somewhere else, under an assumed name.
Who knows, maybe if the US had a say in International Internet Law, it would come to its senses and be nice and fair to everyone.
Bahaha Right.
Ace
Are you still required to show "papers" in Denmark when travelling from place to place, and submit all internet content to government approval?
It didn't know your education was THIS bad!!!
The communists have NEVER ruled in Denmark, they are representated in the parlament with about 4 persons out of 179 members.
Geez, I have never shown any papers when travelling, and I have never been censored.
In contradiction to the US, we do not have an censoring at all! Want pornography? Walk down at the local gas station or supermarket. Want horror movies? Turn on the public owned TV-station, they sent "Nightmare on Elm Street" yesterday, a quarter past midnight. Naturally the uncensored version. Do you really believe Americans are the most "free" people?
Anders Ebbesen
For a number of reasons, your post is full of shit.
"The spirit of America, the spirit that overrode the Nazis and Nippon, will spill into every place and every person - whether they acknowledge it or not."
Wrong - what "overrode the Nazis and Nippon" was the fact that the US just happened to be a country with a total land mass larger than Europe, richer agriculturally and minerally, united, and very populous. It's the same reason that invading the USSR was suicidal - some countries are just too big to invade, and some countries are just too big and powerful to defeat in a conventional war. America's "spirit" had almost nothing to do with it's success in the second world war - in fact, it's entirely possible that the US wouldn't have gotten into the war if it hadn't been for Japan making the first move. So where was the American Spirit there?
"I think the important heart of the argument is this: America is the source of a substatianly large portion of all ideas over the past century - it's been the most successful of all memetic cultural beasts because of its strong support of pluralism."
Once again, you seem to be making the mistake of assuming that things caused by America's size and power are actually due to some wonderful thing fundamental to the US's nature - this is, of course, ridiculous. The US has the cultural clout it has because it can afford to produce an enormous amount of cultural product, and it is in a position where it can offer up that product to the rest of the world very easily. It's a lot harder for a popular Australian band to make it in the US than it is for an equivalently (in terms of percentages) popular American band to make it in Australia - the Australian band might sell fifty thousand albums here, where the American band might sell a million albums (the US population is about twenty times that of Australia). That size and economic power massively distorts the way that the US interacts with the rest of thw world, to the point where it can look like the US is somehow qualitatively different, as well as quantitatively.
"But we should remember that Europe, for all its strong culture, history, and intelligence, is for the most part a very, very biased society. Racial purity is not that taboo a concept beneath the surface there, and as far as cultural pluralism... well, the forces coming to a head in Austria may be being censured, but their ideas are only unpopular because they are government sponsored."
This from the home of the Ku Klux Klan? I think you're being just a tad selectively blind, here - there are stupid, bigoted people everywhere in the world, and the fact that some of them are getting considerable power in some parts of Europe doesn't mean that it's a problem unique to Europe. After all, aren't half of the Republican politicians in the US _really_ suspect in this sense?
On the flipside, you can also find as much support for pluralism and so forth in Europe or elsewhere as you can find in the US, and in fact many places are much stronger in their support than the US. Australia, for one, is more multicultural than the US, and more successful (AFAICT) at having multiple cultures living together with minimal tension.
And finally:
"In a sense, no matter how much it changes, America will always remain the owners of the Internet.. maybe not the physical America of the future, but this technology has managed only to spread our ideas and concepts further and more quickly than any means before."
"our" ideas? "our" concepts? I'm sorry, but you've got your head up your arse if you think that the ideas and concepts you are claiming as your own were not being circulated quite successfully without you. You didn't come up with them, and you haven't even perfected them. The only reason they sometimes appear to have originated with you is because you can make much more noise about things than anyone else can, so that you can drown out the other, quieter voices that were talking before.
America, please get your head out of your arse and take a look at the rest of the world - we've been doing all these wonderful things for ages, and yet whenever you start up, you make like it was your idea all along.
himi
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My very own DeCSS mirror.
I haven't travelled extensively, but I have been out of Australia - I've travelled in Indonesia a bit. So I can't really go one up on you there ;-(
However, I don't think I need any particular qualifications to say that you do _not_ come across as someone who has really thought about this sort of thing - you sound rather like someone who has just accepted the things that you learnt in the first ten years of your life, and not considered moving outside that box since. You say you've questioned non-Americans that you know (presumably both the ones at your university, and when you were travelling) - have you ever really sat down and talked to the ones who _didn't_ agree with most of what you said? Did you ever ask them why, and really pursue their reasoning? Or did you just have a good old yarn with the ones that agreed with you, while ignoring the ones that disagreed?
I should note that, like you, I'm not trying to be offensive here, I'm just trying to work out why you think that the rest of the world is second rate, and why you haven't considered that the rest of the world might simply be _different_. You seem to be making a value judgement in a case where they aren't either safe or, generally, warranted - how can you say that a different culture is "second-rate"? You might prefer one to another, but to say that one is better than the other is, to my mind, stupid.
And that's pretty much what pisses me off about the attitude that most Americans seem to have about the world - they either think that it's just completely unimportant, or they think that the US is just fundamentally better. And my response to that kind of reasoning tends to be "Fuck You", because there's very little that anyone can say to change the opinion of someone who thinks that way (believe me, I've tried).
Oh, about ISDN - it's as much a networking technology as ethernet, ATM, X25, wavelan, or any other link-layer technology - it's a bit-pipe, basically.
I suppose you could say that the whole point of my argument is just about identical to OzJimbob's - try thinking outside the square. It would probably help if you started with the premise that the US is _not_ just fundamentally better than the rest of the world, but you never know, you might derive that result from your research . . .
And as a final point, your original post seriously fucked me off by using that phrase "America rules while everyone else drools.", which could probably go down as one of the most offensive lines I've ever heard in an alegedly serious discussion. I'd really suggest you refrain from using it again, unless you're aiming for pissed off readers.
himi
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My very own DeCSS mirror.
An who the fuck are you to say that any other social system is poorer. Thats a load of bullshit. Even if "your" democracy seems better, that other counties, it is deffinitly not the role model of scocial systems out there.
If living for money, and assasinating people who think differnt is your idea of a good system. Put ur fucken head back in the hole.
The software on my computer is not ur's neither is the hardware. The internet is not urs, it's everyone's.
If you want to know what a real system is like, follow the link to my homepage.
But i susspect that unfortunatly you are far to narrow minded, stuck-up and fascist to be able to think that an idea like anarchism would work.
So keep thinking that you are superier to everyone else, maybe it is for the best, we would want you to realise the truth and have to start thinking for your self now would we?
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I challenge you to find even one part of the computer you're sitting in front of that was made in the US.
This just reminded me of a quote: "Russian computers, American computers, it's all made in Taiwan anyway." (Peter Stormare in "Armageddon")
Yes I'm talking about that "bum", Who stands on the corner begging, instead of going to the day labor pool and earning the money that could get him a place to stay for the night.
Yes I'm talking about that "bum", Who took the five dollars someone gave him and invested it in cheap wine.
Yes I'm talking about that "bum", Who will visit the local crack dealer for a rock the minute he gets ten dollars.
Yes I'm talking about that "bum", Who could raise to the level of the working poor. Don't try to tell me it can't be done. Every month thousands of Mexicans enter the USA as homeless undocumented aliens, and quickly advance to the level of the working poor.
Yes I'm talking about the working poor too.
Yes I'm talking about the poor, Who get paid on Friday and show up for work monday, Broke with a hangover.
Yes I'm talking about the poor, Who buy a cheap steero, instead of a used computer. I have a friend who's buisness consists of refurbing used computers. A DX2/486 goes for about $100.00
Yes I'm talking about the poor, Who would rather spend $20.00 for some pot, instead of a month's worth of internet access.
Yes I'm talking about the poor, Who's only plan for getting ahead is to buy $10.00 worth of Lottery tickets
Yes I'm talking about the poor, Who aren't willing to put the effort in to learn a trade that could advance them to the middle class. Visit your local US Army recruiter, and you will find someone who is willing to pay for your education. Another option is a Trade School, Often the cost is nominal to learn a skill that will raise you above the poverty level. Most of these courses only take a year. Just 1 year of 16 hour days, (School + Night Job), And you are lower middle class, at the very least.
Want to go farther? Once you reach that level you have the income to take night classes at a Comunity College. Three or Four years of Part time Education, and you have an Associate's Degree.
Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est
Have fun pal... until you think of that you have nothing to base the claim that Linus would be my idol on. Some people let the thought of "nailing someone" go a bit too far to actually think before posting.
Tomorrow will be cancelled due to lack of interest
My bologna has a first name, it's H-O-M-E-R,
my bologna has a second name, it's H-O-M-E-R
I'm confused I think he just agreed with me.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
Almost NOTHING is made of bricks in this country.
Okay so I guess the entire structure of that simple statement went over your head.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
I know a person who got asked his email address a second time (over the phone) after ending it with .edu Arun
I'm from Upstate NY - and have lived in america my whole life. you seem to have missed the boat too.
IMO that is about as stupid as you can have it. ... let's have the states decide for themselves what to teach and what not"....
"Oh, sure
If anything should be under federal control it's education, that way EVERYBODY gets an equal opportunity wrt education, not just everybody in X state(s) but every single body.
I think that you would find that Scotland (where Bell was born) has been a predominantly Protestant country for several hundred years. The area of Scotland in which Bell was born is not even an area with strong Catholic leanings, and as to any mention about repressive catholic church; the catholic church had NO significant hold over society on the east coast of scotland. If anything, the situation is the opposite; the strong influence at that time was from the Scottish presbyterian church, NOT the Catholic. Other parts of Europe may have been subject to stronger levels of influence by the catholic church, but I can assure you that Britain, and in particular Scotland were NOT (no offence implied or meant to the Catholic church here....).
During the period in which Bell was alive, the British government tended to allow private enterprise on the same sort of level as enjoyed in the US presently. Any products that were "nationalised", as you put it, were used by the government by placing contracts with the relevant companies. The nationalising of industries in the UK only happened in the 20th centry, firstly in times of war, and then, post WW2, on a full time basis, as the country tried to recover from the war.
Most of the reasons for emmigration from Scotland were due in main to the terrible poverty that existed in the early parts of the 18/19th century, as the country made the transition from from a predominantly agrarian nation to an industrialised one. The compensation issue is complete rubbish. Often the reason for emmigration was either forced, or because the landowner in question found it was cheaper to pay for emmigration of his clients, than try and support them through times of drought, etc.....
If you're going to use flame-bait, at least make it plausible.......
It was not implied in my post that everything be done purely for monetary profit, but only that the value (and that depends on taste) exceeds the cost (not strictly monetary).
I certainly can't say that my love of Scheme is ever going to pay me big bucks. Hobbies are great, don't get me wrong, but there is not enough time for me to learn every language in the world! Cost does come into it.
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You were a moderator with 5 points. You should have read the moderator guidelines before you did any moderating
What planet do you live on?
Your Madeline Albright rushes across the globe at the first sign of a nation with an internal problem, wearing cowboy hats or boots - I'm not making that up. Watch the news reports, browse the net. She obviously sees herself as a cowboy out to right the world.
How many of your politicans have described America as the policeman of the world?
How many have denied the role?(Sure proof of it's verasity)
Policemen tend to enforce speed limits, while speeding themselves when they need to.
Concrete analysis...