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Qwest Achieves 100-Mile IP Round-Trip At 40Gb/sec
TheShrike writes: "As reported in the Denver Rocky Mountain News:
'Almost without fanfare, a joint venture of Denver-based Qwest Communications and Dutch telecommunications company KPN has smashed the cyber speed record for transmission of data over the Internet.
The joint venture, called KPNQwest, transmitted 40
gigabits of data per second in a 100-mile round-trip
connection between Frankfurt and Gernsheim,
Germany, last week.'" Add Napster, stir. [16th May, 4:50GMT: Updated headline to read "Gb" not "GB." Thanks, all. -t.]
Streaming video. Streaming TV. A good idea I think, but when you get people who start to stream movies, that will naturally piss off the MPAA.
Not if they are for pay. You can get movies via digital cable, why not have the functionality of a digital cable decoder in your PC? It certainly can be done, but the question is, can it be video "on demand".
It's all converging now anyway. In some areas, you can not only get cable and internet through your cable TV company's wire, but also phone service (like a plain-old dumb phone with a keypad and handset, not iphone, etc)... The question is, will the local phone companies die out because they are so slow to get decent bandwidth to the homes? Try to get them to put in ISDN or DSL in your home if you are more than N yards away from the office if you don't know what I'm talking about...
And yeah, there are some QoS concerns that IP can't address wrt "internet phones", but... It's happening.
Is employee turnover rate.
They cut through workers about as fast as they send data through a fiber circuit. Great bandwidth, horrible company (they bought out my last employer, please allow me to make my stabs wherever I can).
As to the latency questions a lot of people are asking about, Qwest's backbone (their American version anyways) freaking screams. When I worked for them, they could average a 70ms ping between SF and NYC. Before that, averages I was getting were around 90ms. At the time of me posting this, they're pulling 74ms.
I can only imagine that this feat over in Germany mimics that behavior.
Very funny.
A PC with a standard 100mb ethernet card only really uses about 25% of the 100mb bandwidth. This is a NIC card design limitation.
7 PCs on a 100mb CAT5 hub would most likely be a very fast network, unless all 7 PCs were trying to ping each other to death.
CAT5 if properly installed can support gigabit ethernet, so you have a lot of expansion room before you need fibre.
Technology is only a vehicle. People are the ones that drive it.
hehe
yes that guy was quite a tool
I'm running Win98SE, and I just tried that like to see what it did.
Right after I clicked it, I got two BSOD's, and then I was dumped back to my desktop. I tried running some programs to see if my system was still stable, but that just caused my system to lock up, so I was forced to reboot.
Perhaps I'm missing something here, but if you check out this article, you'll note that Bell Labs transmitted 3.28 terabit over 300 kilometres by multiplexing different wavelengths over a single fibre strand.
You are not kidding, Qwest is my worst problem for a simple MUD. It has horrible routers and they SHUTDOWN on ya at times. Lag is fierce across Qwest.
Qwest has no speed increases in my book til they get decent sysadmins and routers.
Yes, I am flaming qwest cause they do SUCK. expecially thier chicago routers.
I can program myself out of a Hello World Contest!!
First of all, I am a Qwest employee.
:)
Second of all, yes, Qwest is a long distance company. However, we do other things besides long distance. The group I work in, QIS (Qwest Internet Solutions) hosts a lot of big name sites. We are the third largest carrier of internet traffic now, and are growing fast.
US West deal: Yes, it should be going through. Its not my department, but as far as I know, we are getting state approval for the merger.
What is the other companies part in this? I don't know, ask them.
However, people should be aware that what happened in Germany was not Qwest itself, but another company called KpnQwest, which is a joint effort between us and KPN, a large teleco in Europe.
Hope this answers some questions.
Lucent, Ciena, Cisco, blah blah... They're all doing this stuff. Multiplexing at different light frequencies is a big market right now. At one time, Ciena was the best at it (it's a big leapfrog contest... "We're better!" .. "No! We're Better!"... ad infinitum)
T
---- It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told.
another story about blazingly fast communications records being set & I'm still waiting for Bell Atlantic to run a string out to my tin can.
<OFF TOPIC>I'm wondering if the Bull system does loop qualifying for DSL by a certain list or is there some way to let the last mile monopoly know your waiting for it and please DO ME FIRST & stop wasting time qualifying people who can't even spell DSL.</OFF TOPIC>
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
(Sorry, just had to do it....)
Well, this is missing the point of MBone and multicast technology. To send a 1 Mbps video signal down the MBone to 100000 people requires exactly 1 Mbps of bandwidth on any single link. Routers that are routing the signal to multiple destinations need some multiple of that for their backplane speed, but not on the wire. Sadly, the current popular streaming formats (RealVideo, in particular) would require 100 Gbps to do the same thing. Sigh.
As fatter and fatter pipes appear on the "high end," the smaller pipes will hopefully get cheaper. Really...do you need 40Gb/sec, or would you be happy with getting your own T3 for half today's going rate? Look at CPUs. As faster ones are introduced, the slower ones have the prices cut. Not a perfect comparison, but it's close.
Ten 100t cards to each 100t hub, 10 100t hubs to each 100t switch, ten 100t switches to each of ten Yellowfin switches plugged into the uplink ports.
/. once. Not only do you get the peak 40G figure, you DDoS /. as well!!
Ask everyone to reload
When did they say they did the testing? Hmm.. Makes me wonder..
Seriously though.. They didn't use commodity PC equipment.. Prolly a purpose built signalling device just sending an alternating binary stream on each specific range. Easy to check for error!!
You could do it with just over fifty 556 ICs and just over seventy transistors..
.sig: Now legally binding!
I seem to remember hearing that 40 Gbps was the maximum amount of information that could be processed by the human vision system. If so, this breakthrough represents a key step towards absolute telepresence, no?
I have a feeling the telcom giants (ATT, MCI, Sprint) and all their subsidaries (WorldCom, UUnet, and whatever Sprint named theirs) will make the most money. They will install the lines, in order to reduce their cost of transmitting data/phones across their backbones, and "in order to pay for the upgrades" they will raise ISP costs by 10 percent or so. Then they will never lower them again. Great.. here come higher dedicated access costs again...
/. is a commercial entity. goto slashdot.com
Remember that camera setup from The Matrix? Well, this bandwidth is highly useful for sending all 30 of the movie angles through simultaneously of the... um....
try again:
Know about ADAT recording? It uses SVGA tapes, and has a sample rate of 250 MHZ (I think) for quality 16 times better than CDs- oh wait... still not enough...
Remember that SF story about people licing in the computers, with ALL of their synaptic connections represented in the computer? Well, here we go! And I bet Al Gore will take credit for it!
(Sorry for this stupid fucking post)
this could be just like RDRAM; increase in bandwidth along with a greater increase in latency
Even if you want to send me mail. I obviously am not going to get it
Elsewhere it was mentioned that compression is used in this setup. How well will an alternating binary stream compress? I'd rather see a test done with realistic data - even if you're just streaming an insane amount of MP3s down the wire, it's a closer representation of actual data that might be send over it.
Unless your phone was a hopped up terminal emulator.
Icebox
I'd like to see them get the latency down. What good is extra bandwidth if it doesn't improve your gaming experience? 8')
what about Canadian beer? we have some of the BEST! beer here! not to mention all the imports!
No sig here...
my god could you imagine quake @ 40gbps .....
"I don't code the things you use, I make the code your things use better."®
Hope that yor smart fridge doesn't run an OS from Microsoft. Imagine how lame it would be to have to reboot your whole house every time you bought groceries: "What do you mean this brand of cheese requires an updated cheese driver? I can't reboot now I have guests over!"
Icebox
I find it very interesting that the 2 telecommunications companies were American and Dutch while the actual test was conducted in Germany. The lure of beer must have done it or something...
Put simply, *twitch*
Granted, this is certain to be old hat in another two years. As the article mentions, this a quadruple of the previous record of 10mbit from two years ago.
In the meantime, I want a point to point from my office to my house. I'll never have to get dressed again.
bugger.net | MunkAndPhyber.com
You got that right. I just tried "La Duchesse du Bourgogne", a truley beautiful belgian (beer) and that now replaces my previous favourite of Ciney Blonde. So many choices to try......sigh...800 or so just in Belgium!!!
Weren't "they" supposed to put a 40Gbps Fiber cable in the ocean around Africa? /. article.
I remember reading about that a while back.
Here's the
So, what makes this cooler?
T
---- It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told.
My local newspaper carried this story from the Associated Press. The article read that some nonstandard hardware/software combination compression method was used to attain this speed. Just a bit of information not mentioned in the article.
A japanese company showed these at CEBIT 2 years ago. I don't know if they're commercially available over there, but it looked like a finished product.
Message on our company Intranet:
"You have a sticker in your private area"
beauty is only a light switch away
Several issues/questions are raised by having gargantuan amounts of bandwidth as in this story:
1. Streaming video. Streaming TV. A good idea I think, but when you get people who start to stream movies, that will naturally piss off the MPAA.
2. MB overload. Even the most modern computer systems can only handle so much bandwidth...
3. Overki...never mind, there's no such thing as overkill when it comes to having too much bandwidth.
And last but not least....
4. $$$$$. Bandwidth is a Good Thing(tm), but it can get rather expensive.
=================================
I pledge allegiance to the flag...
of the Corporate States of America...
I got thrown out of a Best Buy once because I told a customer than the salesman was a chump.
The customer was buying a 56kbit modem and the salesman was telling him how he'd be able to connect at 56kBytes, nodding yes to questions like "I can download a 1MB file in less than 20 seconds?"
Icebox
See the link here It's much tougher to do it over longer distances. Quest learned a lot of this from the I2 project.
Maybe now with higher speeds like that, you can visit the Starcraft Linux page faster thatn before. Hooray for technology.
The speed of light is about 1864 miles per second (3e6 meters/sec)*(3.2 feet/meter)*( 1/5280 miles/feet). So the time to travel 100 miles is about 0.0536 seconds. Add in some time for electronics to switch states, and it goes up. IIRC, this is faster then the theorical max speed for copper wire, since you have to play fun games with internal resistance and the like. Also faster then your woody station wagon with tapes.
hrm...suppose i should have read the damned article. lol
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
This is like having the choice of a 10-BaseT switch or a 100-BaseT Hub. take a look at the article
Yahoo News
Spacecase
The point of this is not to run 40Gb to your house, but to use it for major backbones. The benefit to you personally is getting full bandwidth to your DSL line (or whatever) from various web sites or download servers.
--
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
Post to usenet using your real email address. The resulting spam ought to do it.... Jason.
You goto Anritsu and buy a pattern generator thats 10 Gb. Get four of them and multiplex it on the same line.
(Assuming it takes about 5 hours for a truck to drive the round trip):
:)
1) Get one large truck.
2) Get approximately 1.5million CD-ROMs
3) Put 3) into 2)
4) Drive to Frankfurt from Gernsheim
5) drive back
explanation:
1.5million CD-ROMs @ ~ 600Mb/disc == 900000000Mb
divide 900000000/5hours == 180000000Mb/hour
which is about == 48Gb/s
Latency is your problem to solve
Phear my l33t homepage.
The IPCC has purposely engineered a massive scientific fraud.
Goto Alcatel's homepage and check it out. It seems Qwest is getting all the credit here. All they did was put some fiber in a tube and let Alcatel come over. From a technology standpoint Alcatel did all the work. The fiber is also important (way to go Lucent or Corning).
BTW, this really doesn't mean a thing. Assuming you can buy a 40Gbs tomorrow (which you won't be able to). It can't use any fiber older then like 2 years, and even then it can only use a small percentage of that. This puts costs way up. As in not feasible.
So for the moment a system like Nortel's 1.6Tb is more feasible and even then you have to be picky about the fiber.
How about JDS Uniphse? They're into some pretty cool optical switches.
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
That's all well and good, but when is Qwest going to start nuking spammers on their networks?
They don't. At the end of the pipe are multiplexers/demultiplexers. Remeber this is a
telco pipe used for ATM in a SDH. Not only for
use with computerdata.
There isn't one. Just the +1 starting at 26.
First of all, realize that this is not meant to plug into some personal computer, or even mainframe. It's meant to work with a pair of big-ass expensive backbone routers between major ISPs. Think about the big pipe between, say, Exodus and MCI.
--
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
I have experienced this many times. I get this kind of blackout feeling, like I've lost consciousness for a brief second or two. It used to happen to me on the school bus, when I would be sleepy in the morning, and the light would flash at some frequency from the trees outside, and I would suddenly feel like I blacked out.
I actually had a car accident that I believe was caused by this type of effect. Does anyone have any more information on this type of "seizure/blackout"?
KPNQwest is an operator. They own the pipe. Consider a car Ford makes the vehicle Exxon provides the fuel. No what does the driver do,
Push the button ?
Actually, I believe that Orange (a UK mobile phone company) is planning to bring in video-phone mobiles sometime soon (early next year they claim). They've been going on about it for ages. The demo models I saw a while ago looked pretty nifty, but I think that the quality will be naff, and the batteries will probably last about five minutes.
their stuff switches IP at full wire rate, on all wires, at the same time. AND, it can filter all that stuff at full wire rate, too.
pretty amazing stuff. you hear that cisco? ;-)
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"It is now safe to switch off your computer."
What's cool about this, is they put 40Gbps on a single carrier on a fiber. This means that, eventually, they can stack a bunch of 40Gbps carriers, on slightly different laser frequencies, in the same fiber to carry [1,2,4,8?]Tbps.
Commercial systems with the capacity to carry over a Terabit-per-second of data over a single fiber are already commercially available (and actually shipping) from companies like Ciena and probably Nortel. Lucent says they have equipment in the lab that is faster, but they're a bit like Microsoft in terms of making press releases long before they have working products, to inspire FUD in their competitor's potential customers... :^)
I have to relate this short little story (which is nearly completely off topic) about modem speeds. A friend of mine, much more comptuer literate than I at the moment, who is soon to be working in silicon vally, once explained to me why I wasn't getting the full 28kB/s out of my 28.8kb/s modem: "Oh, there is just transmission overhead, you shouldn't use AOL." I swallowed that, we switched to enteract, and I imagined that my downloads got faster, not that they ever got as fast as I thought they should. Now, of course, we both know a lot better than that, but let it be a lesson to any of you who think that the average person pays attention to the difference between B and b.
Qwest was responsible for creating the delays and determining the reasons why it couldn't be installed on time.
Oh.... I see! It must be pr0n, what else can you find at such quantities on the internet? ;-)
2) About 20GB/Sec one the IDE bus, IIRC. Well within the limits of streaming video.
3) Companies know that.
4) As companies compete to increase it the price will fall. I expect either really fast flat rate or for pennies a gigabyte to become a reality fairly quickly. Of course, when you start streaming 4 to 6 gigabyte movies, it'll add up fairly quickly. Should still be less than your current phone bill at the end of the month (Unless you're a real bandwidth whore.)
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
$0 a month is what i pay for my dialup access... that's a lot better than $40... cheap is $10 or so
Think that was flamebait? You've obviously never met me in person...
$email=~tr/.@/
40Gb is not nearly enough of what is going to be needed in the next 2 years. Now that the wireless moved in, more people will be sending email from their phones and more internet searches will be activated. Streaming video to your PC? Try streaming video to your cell! Yes, I want to present to you my new idea: Stream Video to your Cell Phone! Even have a camera on your cell-phone, this way you could use your phone as a digital camera, a scanner or a videophone.
40Gb will barely cover the growth of the standard wired networks, forget the mobile.
I am not saying it is slow, I am just saying it's not going to be enough.
You can't handle the truth.
You're right. It ought to have been Gb and gigabit.
:)
Now I've corrected it and noted that in the story. Hopefully many more people get to read the corrected than the uncorrected version
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
Mile? What's a mile? You use metric prefixes like "Giga" and slap "mile" in the same phrase. It's so non-sequitur. What about our international readers?
Yeah, it doesn't seem to bother my NT4 box (or, of course, my AIX workstation)...
"It's tough to be bilingual when you get hit in the head."
I agree. However the issue here really lies with users in remote locations. Consistency for all is the key. Screw the wiring go wireless. Hell they have "Wireless T-1's" available - at a price - so it's only a matter of time before the faster wireless breed arrives. This will be a sight for sore eyes here in Canada because of our bizarre population disbursement - too much space between cities and towns. But hey our beer rocks!
Correction! If you live in Philadelphia or Pittsburgh......all the dsl you can get. screw the rest of PA
As far as I know, Qwest is mostly a long distance company, and one of the first long distance companies to use TCP instead of circuits for long distance. Since using packets instead of circuits in real time audio (aka phone) service presents serious problems of lag time, I imagine that Qwest is doing this so they can deal with the problem of packet control lag time.
The other reason they may be doing this has to do with the fact that they own USWest (or USWorst, as it is sometimes known), which is now the largest provider of DSL service in the world. Since they are still engaged in a campaign to sell DSL to everyone and their senile mother, they will eventually need more bandwidth to deal with all those new DSL lines.
That would be my guess behind all of this, but I do have a few questions:
Am I right about Qwest being a long distance company?
Did the USWest deal ever go through?
What is the other companies steak in this?
Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
>If you are going to mod some up make sure you read it. And make sure it makes sense. The author of this post obiviously didn't read the orginal post very closely, as it plainly stated gigabit. Seriously, I am about to start reading at 3+ instead of 2+.
Well, actually the moderation on the article does say "Interesting", rather than "Accurate"...and you have to admit that things CAN be interesting regardless of whether or not they are true...
-craig
Ok. Once I make my first $billion, I know exactly where that money's going: One of these connections between my house and www.cybererotica.com
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I don't think that convention is universally accepted. I've been working in data communications for a long time and BPS, as in BPS, KBPS and MBPS, has always stood for bits per second. Bytes per second, or more properly, octets per second, has never been a popular unit of measurement. When multi-bit units are involved, symbols per second is commonly used. Most data communications are serial, and at the hardware level, serial streams of bits. It seems that bytes/sec is primarily relevant to the parallel buses used in computers.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
You use a time division multiplexer (TDM) to combine 20 2 gbit/s signals into a 40 gbit/s signal, or you can use a frequency division multiplexer (FDM) to put 20 2 gbit/s signals on 20 carriers or optical wavelengths. Analog cable TV systems use FDM, a T1 line used to carry digitized 64 kbit/s voice streams is using TDM. Very high speed fiber systems use a combination of TDM and FDM.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Click here for a picture of a woody station wagon, or watch an old surfing movie.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
thats unreal. just imagine.. entire digital movies downloading in less than a second from your home connection... well, someday hopefully. im still waiting for cable modem in my area :)
Will you people STOP abbreviating gigabit as GB? PLEASE?? Everyone is going to immediatly think this wire is 8 times faster than it is.
After moving into the house two months ago I've just finished running all the Cat 5 to our 7 PCs and the vacant ports in the family room. *sigh* Anybody know where I can get a good deal on fiber? :)
That's awesome stuff, I don't know if anyone else caught that. (laugh) Do you quite appreciate just how fast 40GBps is? That's, hmm, in Internet terms 320Gbps [gigaBITS per second], or 327680 Kbps. Approximately 5789 times the speed of your modem, by my calculations... US West, watch out. DSL may be nine times as fast as a modem, but if you can beat 5789.
No, seriously, that's amazing. What sort of things do you think you could do with a connection that fast? I mean, God, that's probably faster than an internal bus on the motherboard; try throwing that sort of stuff into a Beowulf cluster.
Perhaps they'll throw that technology my way when they're done with it.
"I may disagree vehemently with what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it."
"On that train all graphite and glitter, undersea by rail. Ninety minutes from New York to Paris..." -Donald Fagen, IGY
w2k crashes enough on its own
I actually believe Microsoft's defence that faulty drivers are the cause of most of the instabilities in their NT line. And certainly a buggy driver will bring a linux box down just as well (though I also think it's more likely to be fixed in a timely manner under linux as many of the drivers are open source).
Anyways, Since installing W2K a few months ago, (after resolving some hardware issues (my undercooled (not overclocked - it's a long story) processor was charcoal)) the only unscheduled reboot I've made was when I kicked out the power cord on accident. I feel that this is "stable enough" to be adequate for use as a workstation.
My linux box, on the other hand, goes down about as often (eg, never, unless it loses power (once every three months or so)).
Trees can't go dancing
So do them a big favor
Pretend dancing stinks!
Ok, I can understand the scientific and technological revelations of ths discovery, but when do the benefits come down to us, the average (ok, maybe not so average) users? How long 'till we get a worldwide network at that speed? Not friggin' soon, unfortunately. It's like all other monumental scientific discoveries--it takes years for it to trickle down to us. I applaud the feat, don't get me wrong, but I'll be more impressed, hell, I'll give them a standing ovation, when it's made available to the rest of us.
Is that Juniper? If so, I know they got a big contract from UUNET for replacing a bunch of Cisco equipment for their backbone switches.
T
---- It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told.
So one strange carries 1.6 terabits of data. Uh wait, I thought they said that they only reached 40 gigabits of data?
Very poorly written article.
I/O Error G-17: Aborting Installation
you sure must be a Yank, because if it were beer they were after, they would have been in Belgium. No I am not Belgian, I am Dutch, but Belgian beer just rules. The Nehterlands is a good second, cause we import all the good Belgian beers, together with some of our own brews. (Unfortunately Grolsch, in my town, sustained heavy damages during an explosion). There are no other culinaire delights in Germany, that might make it worthwile to be there, so there must have been a technical economic reason.
Use Adsense for Charity
Your crash windows link in your sig doesn't do very much to w2k. Does it work better on the 9x series?
Trees can't go dancing
So do them a big favor
Pretend dancing stinks!
Netscape, sure, but what Open Source software has Oracle released? (I could just be uninformed, so feel free to enlighten me).
It's amazing how that article was able to allegedly cover the beginnings of the GNU/Linux movement, and *never* once mentioned the words "FSF", "Richard M. Stallman", or "GNU". The article makes it seem like Linus wrote the kernel, and all the rest of the GNU software kind of just 'appeared' out of thin air! I'm no FSF fanatic, but I think that RMS et al have a point. It's articles like this that make me think we should try to emphasize 'GNU/Linux' over just 'Linux'. And 'Free Software', rather than just 'Open Source'.
Just how does one generate 40 gigabits - 5 gigabytes - of data per second? That's well above the throughput of any bus system I'm aware of, let alone RAM or hard drive. Any idea how they do this?
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I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
Yeah, but what's the latency? A station wagon full of tapes has a higher bandwidth, but pretty poor latency.
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Mod up a post Rob doesn't like and you'll never mod again
This seems to be a case of using existing data lines, with higher priced gadgets at the end to send more data over one pipe. If that's true, then there are theoretical limits to be reached, but we're nowhere *near* the bandwidth capability of fiber, right?
What I'm getting at, is that the fiber optics that have been, and are being laid down right now will probably serve us for decades to come. The real innovation will be to create transmitters and receivers that can push and pull more data through those cables.
Therefore, since fewer new developments are likely to come in the physical fiber technology, but lots are expected in the tx/rx side of things, is it possible to figure out which companies are more strongly poised to profit from this phenomenon? Any ideas?
"I have never let my schooling interfere with my education." - Mark Twain
Errr.. Sure, we can get f***ing loads of bandwidth down a fibre, but that's not the hard part. The point is that the latest test shows that this bandwidth has been achieved with IP.
DWDM (the multiplexing tech.) isn't that new, the trick is to find a router that can handle it. We can get massive bandwidth over SDH, it's getting it over IP that's tricky.
I note that the latest announcement didn't actually use the word 'IP' anywhere, but the talk of new routers implied it to me - that and the fact that if they meant SDH it wouldn't be much of a big deal.
P.S. I'm not fibre optic expert, but I think this explains the discrepancy.
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I didn't visit the link because i can't stand the RMN (I read the post here in Denver)...but this is basically the equivalent of transferring the ENTIRE encyclopedia britannica in 15 seconds.
FluX
After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume