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Ask Havenco's CTO Anything You'd Like
A few days ago you read here on Slashdot about the datahaven called Havenco poised to open six miles off the English coast, in the semi-recognized, undeniably eccentric principality of Sealand.
Havenco CTO Ryan Lackey has graciously agreed to answer
questions from Slashdot, and to involve others on the Havenco team in answering questions he can't. C'mon -- how can you not be curious about an off-shore datahaven in an anti-aircraft bunker? Ask questions in the space below, and we'll forward 10-15 of the highest moderated ones on to Ryan. [Updated 15:40GMT by timothy:] Remember, many of the obvious questions are answered on the Web sites above or in the comments of the first story. Fire away with meaty technical questions -- they're up for it!
and as it's an artificial structure, the Royal Navy could presumably claim ownership
As far as I understand the law, if a vessel is abandoned in international waters then anyone can claim salvage rights.
What type of safeguards are in place to prevent disruption of network services?
sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.
What about the obvious terrorist threat - to Sealand itself? Suppose Havenco begins to make a lot of money in gambling and porn (a likely possibility given the questionable legal status of both in various jurisdictions). Or suppose that opposition parties in less than friendly nations (Yugoslavia, China, Zimbabwe) began to post their websites there, beyond the range of local authorities, like B92 does with xs4all.nl.
.. but couldn't a fatwa-equipped terrorist show up with a bunch of plastique and simply suicide-bomb it away?
In this case, of course authoritarian ISPs (Singnet, China Telecom, AOL) would block the IPs
I would suspect that the Taliban, Hezbollah, Focus on the Family, or other fundamentalist types would be able to come up with a guy with a motorboat and some Semtex. Will the Royal Navy come out to save the former outpost? Survey says no. And I don't see Havenco suddenly developing a global intelligence service and high-powered navy to keep the NON-cyber terrorists away.
It brings new meaning to the term "denial of service." And "single point of failure."
Andrew
sulli
RTFJ.
I'll keep it short and sweet - if this is legit, where did you get the money, what are your approximate costs, and how many customers do you have presently? In addition, most customers utilizing a service such as the one you provide have serious concerns about physical integrity of their server: a physical compromise of the system can rarely be detected remotely. What are your plans for ensuring mutual tamper-proof systems (ie, you cannot tamper with them without your customer knowing and vice versa)?
Another post makes that clearer, though.
And, according to another post, HavenCo will be taking control of the island, which means they can define legal/illegal (maybe, I dunno the exact terms). It's still a sticky issue.
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
serious tho... if the major governments wont support you, at least their geeks will.
Forget about internet connectivity. In all honesty, I'd like to know what sort of defense systems you're country has? What are you going to do if some country gets angry about what you're posting and decides to invade? Honestly! I mean, anyone can take of say, martha's vineyard, with just a few people and declare it it's own independant country, but the US could and would drive them out in a heartbeat. Likewise, I could find a desserted island in the pacific and say it's mine, but only until a country with more weapons than me decides they'ed like it instead... You could ally with another country, and use their arms as your own, but in all likelyhood, the entire purpose of this country seems to be to be able to disregard other countries laws... Thererfore, places like the US, France, etc... aren't very likely to step up to defend you...
Hello,
:-) ]
I've looked at your website and see that you have a management team in place, but I'm wondering about your staffing set-up. Answers to any or all of the questions below would be appreciated.
Will your employees (especially technical staff) be bonded? If so, how?
Will staff all be located locally on the island?
Are you outsourcing any activities, such as intrusion detection or any network monitoring?
What is the caliber of your technical staff? What kind of skills are you recruiting for? [And, are you hiring?
Are you taking any special measures to protect your staff (from physical, legal, or other factors)?
Very interested,
- sk
It sounds like you have made the physical site as secure as possible, short of dropping mines on the beach and putting rangers in gun towers. The only potential weak point that I have seen is your lines to the outside world. How do you plan on 1) protecting those lines, be it physical or sat link from attackers. 2) protecting that service. If your lines hub out to an MCI presence in say england (pardon, Im not totally up on havenco's exact physical location.) what would happen if MCI takes some heat and is forced to drop your service? any backup plans? 3) Protecting the traffic on those lines. While the data on your servers is encrypted, do you leave it up to your clients to encrypt the traffic going back and forth from havenco, or do you require something like browser encryption or ssh?
...and the geek shall inherit the earth...
and finally a small PR suggestion. Since this service is going to mostlly excite geeks, how about tossing a bone our way. Say a public PGP key server at havenco or something of that sort?
www.linux-skunkworks.com
I am in the process of building a 10 million dollar data center. My company is completely international, with locations all over the globe. For this reason, an international data center seems to be an optimal solution for us (details aside).
The question I would have, far more important than having your lines severed, is what if your IP(s) wind up on every single national filter across the globe? Where will that leave companies which are being hosted by you? China will almost certainly block access to your IP(s). What happens when the US government blocks access to your IP range bassed on a request from Metallica? (Pun intended.) Where does that leave your clients?
Also, how much of a data center can that fortress hold? Many data centers are massive, (Mine is relatively small, but still takes up a super-market sized building.
Last but not least, how do you intend to get the hardware? Some of the hardware I am ording falls under US export regulations. Surely those regulations would be extended to include the Principality of Sealand, especially since it is not subject to any agreements made by the EU to prevent high-powered computing from falling into terrorist hands.
My $0.02 will always be worth more than your â0.02, so
How do you plan on running typical matters of government? (such as taxes, citizens, tariffs, a judicial system, criminals, the death penalty, treason, etc.) Many people are frustrated with the beuarocracy and injustice of the governments in their own countries. Since you have the opportunity of building your own from scratch, what are your plans?
-sigs of the world unite
Sealand is obviously very small. Even if you manage your space and resources well, it's obvious that you will have plans for expanding to other island and island-like places in the future. Do you have your sights set on anywhere outside Sealand yet?
Intercarve Networks, LLC
Now if you'll pardon me, my Ensure's gettin warm and my oatmeal's gettin cold. mumble, mumble...Cryptonomicon..mumble, mumble data haven. Feh! ;-)
I'd like to be an Ammbassador at Large
[for which I understand spelling isn't
required]to Estonia.
Even a minor post such as cook in
the Sealand mission to the UN could
get me out of a whole mess of parking tickets &
one of them 'red white& blue' license plates.
Looking around I don't seem to find much
worthy to save but I hope you can keep those
amusing naked ladies showing up in my Email.
They make more sense than Windows or
Neural path technology.
I wish you well in your
'Third Foundation'
Now if only you could do something
about the Free Masons who are causing these
censorship problems in
the first place [I BELIEVE, I BELIEVE]
watch out for those MIXCROWAVE LASERS.
I see plenty of discussion here on the possibilities that any given nation may be opposed to the data hosted at HavenCo. Apparently, you don't realize that this is exactly what the world powers want. In fact, I would not be surprised if our Mr. Lackey was a puppet of the world Elite (political context), perhaps even unknowingly.
This is not, in my opinion, a favorable situation. The world needs less centralization of power. This is an opportunity for more. And from the ``holes'' in the story, many exposed by questions in this discussion, all make it seem very likely that HavenCo will be controlled by, as I'll put it, a group unsincere to the cause.
--Drew Vogel
would they look after them though? I mean it might be one thing to help them get off the island if there were a giant tidal wave coming or something, but since there's been shots exchange (at least I think they fired on a UK boat once) would the UK maybe decide not to do anything if someone attacked? Or are they maybe like the little sister you hate but you'll stop older kids from beating her up?
"Leave the gun, take the canoli."
this is just a placeholder till i send back my real sig from the future.
Are there any positions open in HavenCo for security specialists? Also, how do people submit their content to the sites they buy on HavenCo anonymously? Is HavenCo going to set up some anonymous redirectors in various countries? -wabe
At least, probably.
...
Sealand is also the name of a well-known shipping company. When I mentioned the Sealand datahaven to my brother (who kindly introduced me to Neal Stephenson's books a few years ago and himself works on ships part of each year), he wrinkled his brow and said "Sealand? You mean the shippers?"
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
What is the current/planned size of your technical staff, and what will be your requirements for applicants (UK/EU citizenship)? Also, will the staff become residents of Sealand? (And how do I sign up?)
-- "I am disrespectful to dirt. Can you not see that I am serious!"
Sealand will inevitably have thin comms links and so will be more exposed than most to a DoS attack. Recent cases have involved ISPs pulling user sites simply for being attacked in this way - they accept the target site is blameless, but pulled it "for the good of the majority of users" and the restoration of their own comms.
How would Havenco respond to such an attack ? Taking the moral highground, or the pragmatic approach of letting individual users be picked off ?
Let us make the assumption for the moment that the HavenCo data haven really starts to take off. What applications do you see coming to the fore as your primary source of business. Do you see the development of a data haven leading to any new applications?
Remember kids! Guns don't kill people - Americans kill people.
We always are persecuted in this country called "slashdot". There is no freedom of speech for us, whereas the feudal rulers of this land (known as 'karma whores') are able to publish anything they like, and most of it pokes fun and discriminates against us, the Anonymous Cowards.
We ACs lead a life of misery, frequently banding together and posting numerous articles together in our revolutionary movement for greater recognition. Unfortunately, factions form and it is common to see ACs fighting ACs, forgetting their cause.
Will you shelter us? We don't have much money, but our wisdom shines from continent to continent. We are probably the most persecuted group on the internet, and need all the recognition and help we can get.
on behalf of,
Supreme United League of Anonymous Cowards (SULAC).
From the pictures and schematics I've seen, it looks small, especially if you intend to cram it full of servers, dishes, generators, fuel, supplies and security guards.
Are you going to sink more barges/piles to expand your area?
George
Is anyone talking to you about setting up a currency system a la Stephenson?
Left shift 1 for e-mail...
My point here is that the Royal Navy cannot really come in fifty years later and reclaim something that they built and abandoned out in international waters, especially if people have been living on it continuously. Of course, that says nothing about the status of the structure as a "real country" entitled to issue passports, etc. It just says that the structure really does belong to those who claim it. At least in the eyes of British law (though I'm obviously no expert) which is mostly what applies here.
What motivates you to set up a data haven? Are you motivated primarily by libertarian principle, or do you intend it mostly as a way to make money from sealand's sovereign status? Or both?
Will you allow data that does any of the following:
- evades taxes or excise?
- breaks local morality and legislated morality (including where oppressive eg: Iran)?
- belongs to political dissidents?
- belongs to terrorists, organised-crime, etc?
- is uploaded and maintained completely anonymously?
- is maintained with absolutely no access granted to anyone trying to prosecute on grounds of its content?
Do you percieve what you're doing as moral? If so why?
I've got two questions:
(1) How connectied is Sealand to the rest of the world. What if other nations decided to try to cut Sealand off from international communications--would that be feasible given the number of data lines coming out of the country?
(2) The data seems safe so long as it is sitting in your data haven, and, obviously, the security of the data is in your clients' hands once they've retrieved data from the haven, but what about in between the two. How do you propose to keep the data secure during transmission (i.e. uploading and downloading)?
If you can read this, then I forgot to check "Post Anonymously".
I'm wondering how long the British govt would tolerate this if they found it to be too offensive. I mean, they sent warships halfway around the world to defend their claim to the Falklands. Also, I wonder about rogue governments such as Iraq that might be very interested in such a territory (can't at the moment think of any use they might have for it, but quite possibly there is one). Best of luck in this endeavor though, it's worthwhile and very interesting, IMHO.
----
Slán leat agus go n'eirí an bóthar leat
Just saw a news story on (Australian) TV about Sealand, its nothing more than a small man made structure (ala mini oil rig) kind of structure.. and here I was thinking it was a real piece of land/island ...... the whole "country" could fall over!!!
Yeah, and don't forget why the oil rig was abandoned: it was replaced by orbital data havens. Can't wait for that...
Is Sealand based on the Duchy of Grand Fenwick as described in Leonard Wibberly's book "The mouse that roared"?
It seems to me that several slashdotters find coincidences with Cryptonomicon, as do I, but I was wondering more if anyone there had read Bruce Sterling's "Islands in the Net." In the book the three data havens aren't just storage locations, but they also create their own huge databases from sources like their own customer's data, and charge people/companies for access to their databases. Are you planning to create such a database and offer such a service?
We want to know how stable your chosen platform is!
OK. So "Sealand" is the former Roughs Tower naval fort off the Essex coast. This structure was erected in 1942 (and hey, let's slashdot someone: picture of this at http://freespace.virgin .net/line.design/forts/sea_forts.htm) and was not intended to be permanent. Tongue Sands Tower, a similar structure recently broke up and partially sank.
C'mon, folks. It's obvious that if you ever did anything or hosted anyone or offered any "service" that the G8 seriously dislike, it'd take them almost 10 minutes to turn your "principality" into smoking rubble slowly sinking into the North Sea.
I'd suggest buying a surplus russian nuke and putting it on a dead-man switch. And even that might not do it.
Any defense plans at all?...
"...they may harpoon us, but they ain't gonna pick us up on no radar screen!"
Pardon me if I'm mistaken, but isn't Sealand actually a sunken boat? Can a boat be claimed as a country?
My first question is slightly silly, but did this idea arrive as a result of Cryptonomicon? The second is, where did you look for funding, and how will your backers affect your business plan? Third, are you planning on having banking services?
I understand that your entire Internet connection consists of a single satellite uplink. Which ISPs are you peering with so as to ensure that no single nation/or national alliance can sever your Internet connection?
ByteMyCode.com: A Web 2.0 code sharing community.
And are you, as employees/founders of a company, prepared to be carted off at gunpoint, and possibly put on trial, for the activities of your business?
you're providing a service to people who in some cases can't get it anywhere else. how do you justify the fact that people are going to hold illegal data in your facility in the name of free speech?
What is Havenco's power setup? Have you looked into tidal, wind, or temperature differential systems?
Are you shielded against EMP?
It is my impression that in close quarters such as submarines, Biosphere II, Mir, or even a big communal house functional effectiveness frequently is determined by social factors. How much planning and instituting of procedures have you done along those lines? Are any of you trained as chefs? How big a video reserve do you have? How much thought have you given to compatability in terms of tastes, work hours, etc.?
Are you working with any other self-contained systems folks such as Columbia Univ.'s Biosphere II folks, the Rocky Mountain Institute, or NASA?
What is your setup for exercise?
How many of your team have previously spent a winter in the North Atlantic?
Strong crypto. Have it be the end users' responsibility to encrypt anything they want to be kept confidential,so that authorities in Sealand cannot tell what the data is. Possibly even make this a requirement to have an account/storage space.
When you live in a sick society, just about everything you do is wrong.
What inspired you to create a data haven (was it the work of Gibson's Neuromancer series?) and do you think there is a long term future for the data haven concept, perhaps moving from offshore to orbital havens?
Why are there no pictures of Sealand on either the HavenCo or Sealand sites?
Are you worried that people might be disappointed if they actually see what it's all about?
----
Stop worrying about the risks of nuclear power and start worrying about the risks of not using nuclear power.
I agree that the best method is to retain good relations with your neighboring countries, but if relations go sour, what technologies are you implementing to ensure that no other country can sever your connectivity to the rest of the world?
The Sealand folks seem to base their view of sovereignty on a decision in a relatively lowly UK court taken a while ago. While at the moment they may be nominally independent, it seems to me pretty likely that if the matter was taken either to a higher court or to the international community in general, it would really be found to be part of the UK and not a sovereign state at all -- and as it's an artificial structure, the Royal Navy could presumably claim ownership, as they put it there in the first place.
Given this, and the fact that from what I've read, Havenco only has one connection to the outside world running directly to the UK, whereas a really useful data haven would, to my mind, need several connections to several different countries to be really viable or immune from legislative interference -- is this really intended to be a viable idea, or just a publicity stunt?
This is just about the silliest thing I've read in a long time. Sealand ins't a country nor will it ever be. It's a concrete tower sitting in the middle of the ocean. It's not foregin soil, its property. This Lord Roy or whatever he calls himself may claim it but that don't make it so.
As for that court ruling it amounts to ziltch in international affairs. It just simply states that the court in question has no juristicion in this matter. Its the exact same thing as a court in Alabama saying it has no juristiction over a gambling boat on the high seas. That is all.
As long as you play nice and obey the laws you'll just be looked on as a bunch of nuts. But once you do something that Britain doesn't like you'll be shutdown and that is pretty much it.
I read at +2. If your post doesn't reach that level I will not see or respond to it.
First, are these people "officially" affiliated with Sealand?
Secondly, if they are, how does this instill any confidence in
your operation by anyone who may be a potential customer?
Third, is this Sealand's idea of Venture Capital (ala' Contragate)?
I mean what are your goals in setting this up. Is there more to it than money and the inherant coolness of running a data haven? Who is helping fund this endevor (if you can give that out), and how did you pitch it to them? Mostly I'd like to know how you feel knowing that while being one of the more prominant defenses (technologically speaking) of free speech, you're also creating a harbor for alot of illegal activity.
Conscience is the inner voice which warns us that someone may be looking.
Conscience is the inner voice which warns us that someone may be looking.
-- H. L. Mencken
And how are those plans for world domination going?
Are you going to have Jill St. John stop by for a photo op? Or maybe Plenty O'Toole?
Now that HavenCo will be taking over the operations of the government of Sealand will you seek recognition from other nations? I would imagine that having other nations officially recognize Sealand's sovereignty would create a precedent that would be useful if legal action were to be taken against HavenCo. Is this a priority?
~CalibanDNS
Are you guys going to pay any tax? The true test of whether Sealand is independant is what happens when the tax dept starts losing revenue.
This is all covered on their website.
When will Havenco be moving its web operations to Sealand?
sarchasm: The gulf between the author of sarcastic wit and the person who doesn't get it.
I mean, seriously, we're talking about a little artificial island right? So the naturaly occuring fresh water is... nil? The ability to produce their own food?
My question would be, if Britain decided that they weren't subject to british law (all the court case said, from what I read) but that their claim of sovernty and territorial waters is bunk, how long could this "country" remain under a full blockade? Anyone can leave, but nothing comes in.
A full blockade will cause hardship in any country, but if we're talking a matter of weeks or months, I don't think we have a viable country here. Especially if they're in what is internationally recognized as another country's territorial waters. Anyone breaking the blockade would be committing an act of war against Great Britain, and who wants that?
So where do you get your food? Do you have equipment to make seawater drinkable, and where to you gets the parts when they break down? Where does your fuel come from? Do you have full solar/tidal/wind power, or are you importing gas or coal for a generator to keep these computers running?
Any kid can build a fort in the neighbor's yard and say they have their own country, but if the neighbor builds a fence and says "stay as long as you want, but mom can't bring you milk and cookies and when you leave, you can't come back" how long is it gonna last? I'd worry less about invasion, than that your neighbor will finally decide to stop letting you play in his yard.
-Kahuna Burger
...will work for Chick tracts...
Do you have any plans to increase the size of Sealand and if so on what timeine and of what materials and will the expansion be bouyant or suspended from one or both of the support columns?
Have you spoken at all with any companies like Real Goods Trading Company, Patagonia, or even Harbor Freight for crying out loud to gear you guys out for the long haul in return for an endorsement?
has anybody offered to attach their boat/barge/platform to Sealand?
Have you ever heard of the Freenet project? This open source project has many of the same goals as HavenCo; its totaly for free speach and totaly against censorship of any kind. The biggest diffrence between the two is that Freenet is dedicated to keeping the network distributed; an understandable diffrence.
I ask primarily because as soon as the HavenCo story broke, there was some disscussion on the Freenet mailing list about asking you guys to host a Freenet node. The project knows that a lot of people are just going to view Freenet as a way for people to get away with terrorism and kiddie porn. I know HavenCo has policies against child porn, but Freenet still needs a place where we can have a node without fear of it becoming an outlaw program.
------
Not a typewriter
Everyone is so concerned with the technical details about what will happen once the bandwidth is cut off. It doesn't matter because they'll never get to that point. No reasonable invenstor is going to shove enough money into this to make it dooable because noone will use it. Aside from a bunch of people trying to escape the law and whatever jurisdiction they're in, there is no way this will ever gain critical mass (if it ever gets started). Assuming that most people that need such security (outside of criminals) are large corporations, No corporation would want to be associated with a place like this Who is going to insure them? And couldn't that be stopped just easily as bandwidth. I doubt any huge corporation is going to be satisified with a bunch of VA servers. I mean they're good for a lot, but not for everything. And what happens once the US says no trade with them...and the UK and everyone else. No computers? I'm emberassed myself that i've even given this concept this much thought as it's totally unfeasible and will NEVER happen.
I think the most obvious predecessor to the Data Haven is the "Swiss", or Overseas Bank Account, affording the rich and discreet the opportunity to hide their wealth in a safe place away from prying eyes and overzealous governments. Use the equation that information is money and the Data Haven is a new feather on an old hat idea that frankly has taken far to long to be implemented imho, and not a creation of Islands in the Net or Cryptonomicon.
In that vain I would like to congratulate HavenCo for getting us up to speed, and ask the CTO:
During the 1980's insider trading crackdown, the US government, specifically the FBI, was able to use intimidation and clout to break open the records of one of those supposedly impenatrable overseas accounts to gain eveidence in the case against the infamous Michael Milkin. Do you forsee history repeating itself and HavenCo or the Sealand government being intimidated or coerced into opening up your data to other nations with vast and far reaching power?
And the question we all *really* wanted to ask: will the dramatic theft scene in the next Mission Impossible sequel be Ethan Hunt stealing valuable data from under the noses of highly trained HavenCo guards?
-chorder
As your business gets larger, you will be forced to hire new workers. Will there be measures to insure that these workers aren't from the NSA or one of your client's competitors? Thanks! Ben Pharr
Does Sealand have any dealings with the many oil platforms in the area?
Have you considered putting up a SourceForge like site for oss projects that may not be totally legal such as DeCSS? Have you considered distributing your own Linux or BSD versions that included such software out-of-the-box? Even if you could only provide online ISO's that had to be downloaded and burnt this would be a great way to keep such things from being left to rot. Possibly you could also make such distro's high-security specialized since you have experience in that area. You could run your own machines on such a distro possibly so it has a functional use for your company to sponsor such a project.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
[Cue comedy lightbulb]
Aha! Nice to clear that one up, although a zippo from a shipping company (however respectable they may be) isn't quite as cool...
The Unfettered Mind: Takuan Sôhô - ISBN: 0-87011-851-X
henry [ w i r e t r a p . n e t ]
Many of the questions asked so far have been excellent. I am curious about the more basic infrastructure.
1. What power source does Sealand use? Is it dependent on power from Britain / able to buy power from Britain?
2. What is the fuel source for that power, if not supplied from Britain?
3. The fortress does not appear to have any land, so what is Sealand's source of food?
4. Do you create your own fresh water on Sealand?
I would be curious to know what by what methods these systems can be maintained in the event of blockade. It appears to me that this would be the most cost-effective attack against Sealand by any other country, especially Britain. Britain is not likely to entertain any other country sending an invasion fleet to Sealand, and I doubt it would be interested in risking British lives to stop Sealand. But trying to starve you out would be a politically viable (read: no lives necessarily risked) option, and could even work as a training exercise for Her Majesty's Navy. A joint blockade would also be possible.
Overall, I really like the whole idea of Sealand. There have been a few posts questioning viability on the basis of size, but I think the precedents of other small countries (Monaco, Luxembourg, and the Vatican) indicate that sovereignity is independent of size in Europe.
Best wishes and good luck!
Two questions:
1.) How much luck have you had on that front? Are there any other smallish countries that are looking to Sealand as an example of How to make it in the technical age?
2.) Would you be willing to consider stepping back from the level of security exhibited in the Sealand facility, or compromising the level of freedom allowed by that country, if it meant that you could get access to another principality/new customers.
Those questions asked, I'd like to compliment you on the whole concept. Seeing Kinakuta come to life is heartening.
What sort of background checks do you perform on your employees? It seems that with the requirements for privacy and security you seem to have, a thorough investigation into a potential employee's past would be necessary. What percentage of applicants are turned away because something in their past renders them inelligible? And where do I send my resume?
-- Minds are like parachutes... they work best when open.
What are you doing to stop people from physically invading Sealand and taking it over? I mean it is consivabel that people like Metalica could just overun the island and take over the servers if they don't aggree with what you or your client where doing.
Hardware - VA Linux Boxes.
OS - Debian, RedHat, OpenBSD, or FreeBSD 4.0
Access - Doesn't say, but I am assuming ssh, ssl, etc, since it says open secure protocols.
Why don't people read the available info, before wasting questions asking stuff that is easy to find out, and doesn't require their CTO?
Oh well people are just lazy I guess.
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Pilchie
I know that England may not be able to shut you guys down, but what if they threatened your ISP? Do you have redundant connections through multiple ISPs in case this happens?
My question is this: were you inspired by Cryptonomicon, or did Cryptonomicon scoop you? If the former, then this is not the first time SF inspired real world events, a self-fulfiling prophecy. If the latter, then this must be one of the quickest SF predicted prophecies. How does it feel to be in this position? I gather you are already sold on the necessity and market for a data haven. How seriously do you take Stephenson's warnings of governmental or corporate harassment?
So how do you plan on making sure that content going into your datahaven is from valid sources, and then do you expect to do a review of all data and THEN send it to an appropriate site? Or are users responsible for knowing the laws of the country where the data is to be sent to? Similarly, are users restricted to one site, or can they request multiple HavenCo locations?
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
Surely this whole thing is a wasted opportunity. With a name like 'Sealand' a far better business plan would be to open an offshore seal-based theme park.
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
First, Read this:
http://www.smh.com.au/ne ws/0004/03/features/features2.html
So, who are you? What is your background?
Who lives on the island?
Why would I host on a man-made island I could crash a plane into?
-Davidu
# Hack the planet, it's important.
Is there any way that we internet users or the Open Source Community could help with Heavenco? Are there any specific software/software security need that you have? Have you considered working with individulas/groups from other countries to help politically support your operations from their native soil?
Asisdes from network connection: Where do you guys get your electricity from?
I'm curious - will you have some trusted third party periodically audit your systems and procedures to assure the privacy (and if applicable, anonyminity) of your users and data? If so, do you plan to publish the results? How will you structure your service agreements with your users? What will be their means of recourse in the event their data or identity are compromised? Or, will the system be "Use at your own risk"? Good luck with the project!
While your site is undoubtably fairly physically secure, the greatest threat to your business from a government does not come via military expression, but from severing your uplinks to the world, either physically (unlikely) or legally (far easier).
Though you have redundant links to various nations (England, France Spain, US and/or Russia via satellite?), all of those nations could capitulate under sufficient pressure and block you at their routers.
How can you convince would-be customers that they don't need to fear this occurence? "World Wide Web" is a gross misnomer; international lines are few are far between.
Best of luck,
Joe Doyle
There are plenty of sand banks around the world in international waters where a million tons or so of rock would make a nice island. There is even some not far from Sealand. Would this not be a better way of gaining some soverignity than trying too get a nation to suceed a portion of land to you? At the very least it is certain to be successful. JAB.
The frailty of this plan of yours is obviously the fact that your connection goes through Britain. It doesn't matter what country it is really, as long as a nation has the power to cut you off, you're vulnerable. The perfect solution would be transfer via satellite, and that the location of the datahaven would remain unknown to all but a few.
It's impossible to maintain independence when you're dependent on Britain allowing your cable.
Being that this is a truely tiny place, I can't imagine having very many fibres crossing their principality. What happens to their customers if their primary network connection "goes away" in a large storm or something? Solid ground colo's (Exodus for example), will have many connections from different providers, what is Havenco's solution?
I like music
Being a data haven makes your customer list target #1 for intelligence agencies all throughout the world. Do you have any method of assuring you
have not been infiltrated by said agencies? Further, do you have an infrastructure (PKI or otherwise) which will allow anonyminity of your clients?
How long can you go on in case of a blockcade, and sanctions against you? What is your source of power, and how are you going to service the platform if this happens?
I also note that weather and/or other situations outside your control might restrict physical access to the platform, not just hostile governments.
Related Links;
# grep slashdot access.log | grep html | sort | uniq | wc -l 2604
You've chosen to try and execute a great idea. Like all great ideas, it needs demo'ing to possible investors and customers before it can really fly.
My question: is HavenCo in Sealand simply a flashy demo for a planned 'public beta' somewhere in Asia or the Carribean later on?
Thank you.
Chris Worth
- Read fiction at www.espressostories.com
Yes - they have an AUP, which specifically prohibits UCE (spamming), DoS attacks etc., and anything illegal in the country of origin of the server.
A holding company in the US could allow a German company to store, serve and update Nazi material (which is illegal in Germany). Similar situations could allow for storage of child pornography or copyrighted material. How do your rules deal with this?
The AUP deals with this; they specifically prohibit `child pornography'. Question: what do they consider `child' pornography? The US has an age of consent of 18, I'm told - it's 16 in the UK, and 12 (yes, twelve) in Spain.
The impression I received from what I read was that the "originating server" in the server sitting in Sealand, not in the US.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Let's say I wanted HavenCo to host a stolen top secret document or I use space on your server to keep my cocain cartels bank records.. That's more or less the digital equivilant of hiding Osama Bin Laden in your basement.. Remember what happened to the country that did that? Precision guided boom.. And Afganistan is full of well armed combat vets who can live on sand, a lot scarier then a dozen nerds with a .22..
Are you really going to fight it out with a team of special forces types to try and save my data? What are you planning to do if someone starts chucking cruise missiles at you? A real datahaven(on earth anyway) needs a real army to back it up..
Time to call Sandline I guess..
They are very close to the UK; UK law specifically protects UK Public Telecomms Operators carrying foreign traffic from government intervention of various sorts. Only domestic communications are fair game to UK law enforcement. (Of course, GCHQ and the NSA are still free to monitor it all - they aren't going to be interested in your DeCSS source, or those Natalia Portman + Hot Grits photos, though.)
Let's say that you do manage to completely secure your clients' hardware and data. Do you think you can also completely obscure the fact that said client is doing business with HavenCo?
If so, may we have more details on how?
If not, do you think that certain governments will make it a crime to simply do business with Sealand? I understand your explanation that you're not undermining the authority of other governments -- but you are undermining their power to legislate away certain activities to which they object, and I imagine they won't like that. In a world which places little value on a citizen's soveriegnty against hir government, there would be few reprucussions to (say) the U.S. making it illegal to purchase your services, but it would put a big dent in your ability to do business.
- Michael Cohn
-----
Go ahead, blame me... I voted for Nader!
Is Steve Woston involved in this project in any way?
That said, I think it's time I changed my
Is there anyone's data you will not accept?
You guys should run a big FreeNet node.
TO BUY A NEW CAR WOULD MAKE YOU SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE.
Most terms and conditions for ISPs restrict you from undertaking illegal activities and are recognised as being legal in the country that service is obtained from. If you HavenCo host something that is disallowed in the Terms and Conditions you agreed to then claiming International independance is not an option.
About the only way I can see of getting round this is to take bandwidth from a much more liberal country who are more likely to accept the money without questions.
Matt Thompson - Actuality - Insert product here.
This already exists try out E-Gold at: http://www.e-gold.com.
They have had 4 different independent currencies available on the internet for about 5 years. They are all backed 100% by various precious metals and are quite popular in the Cyberpunk community.
Quite a few new cool apps and Open Source stuff is happening surrounding them. Ryan Lackey was quite into E-Gold last I talked to him. He's a good guy and since he's involved, I'm certain that the security aspects are good.
-Pelle
So. What are you going to do when good old Tony sends in the Marines and blows everything up?
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
1...The website displays a copyright logo. Did
Sealand sign the Berne Convention, and thus does
it respect copyright?
2...Explain who is the real owner, because outsiders are confused with havenco, principality-sealand.net and sealandgov.com
3...Will I be allowed to store encrypted files there that HavenCo can't possible read, condone nor condemn?
4...Why does Havenco insist on policies that allow them to remove content based on their disgretion? How many judges does Sealand have to deal with this, or will Joe random Sysadmin play judge?
5...How will havenco prevent their backbone ISP or that ISP's country from interfering with Sealand/Havenco?
Others have mentioned treaties and redundant connections. Do you think there is a chance to play superpowers off each other for long-term stability? In some cases it might be prohibitively expensive to lay lines to, say, Russia and the US, but on a smaller scale you could do France, the UK and Spain with say a satellite link to India. Is there a possibility of playing the game not (just) with superpower nations, but supercorps?
-- Old Man Kensey
Obviously, offering to store data for other people can be an ethically sticky business. Are there limits to what you are willing to store?
A holding company in the US could allow a German company to store, serve and update Nazi material (which is illegal in Germany). Similar situations could allow for storage of child pornography or copyrighted material. How do your rules deal with this?
Thank you for not thinking.
Bank paradises (Bahamas, Panama, Switzerland) have a reputation of being a haven for thief dictators, drug bosses, and generally everybody powerful who won't pay taxes like you and me, not as a haven for the oppressed individual.
Do you think that your haven will develop a similar misreputation? Do you care?
__
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
I was very glad to read that one of the only things that HavenCo will disallow on its servers is child pornography. In my own net experience, I find myself thinking that all is fair except for kiddy porn. But, once a person starts to take any interest in the content, can they really avoid the problem of getting drawn into a very difficult position of having to gradually expand what isn't allowable? For example, suppose some sick-o wanted to host a web site depicting real-life rapes. Surely just because that is not child pornography does not mean that it is morally justifiable to provide that service. Can you really just draw the line at child pornography?
Slashdot 's editors are dickheads
I noticed on your website that you were going to offer free services for websites and organizations that:
"promote free speech, promote human rights, [or] give a voice to minority and oppressed groups that otherwise may not be heard"
My questions are, who will be making the decisions about who qualifies, and how? How many have applied so far? How many are you planning to offer services to?
Vote Technocratic! Government by killer robots!
Over twenty years ago, a group of persons successfully stormed Sealand. Since Sealand claims its own sovereignty, it is not protected by any other governments--and perhaps most importantly, its status has not been laid down by the UN, so the existing "government" of Sealand may have no recourse in the event of a successful takeover. Sealand is responsible for its own protection. First question, then: What's to prevent people from storming the tower once more? Second question: Why would a large company feel comfortable storing its data on Sealand, if it knows that its competitors could use mercenaries with no legal recourse? Unless convinced otherwise, I don't feel comfortable storing my data on a sixty-year-old artificial structure in the North Sea, where a storm, explosives, simple metal fatigue, or a thousand other things could disrupt data access. You guys are sitting ducks.
RAISIN = Redundant Array of Impregnable SovereIgn Nations?
Maybe I could use your site for Parity or stripe to your site for speed.
Everyone seems to be concerned with other governments capturing Sealand or claiming ownership of Sealand. I think it more likely that they would just sever connections to prove their points, and that has already been addressed.
But what about terrorists? What if some terrorist organization sees Sealand as a get rich quick scheme, and wants to capture and hold hostage the sensitive data of some of the worlds largest companies? Threats to divulge internal secrets, data loss, exposure of personal information of clients and accounting records have all got to sound like a good opportunity to someone out there.
Surely, government militaries cannot be expected to defend what is clearly a corporate undertaking (though I suspect some governments would think it was their job), so what kind of defense is Sealand, or HavenCo in particular going to have in place if any?
-Tommy
"I got a half gallon of Jack, and 2 dozen Ant Traps. I'm about to get wild." -me
Could you describe what neat technological feats you are planning to maintain robust connectivity, and whether you will get creative in the future with your routing?
Assuming you start with a single microwave connection to the coast, it makes routing easy, but leaves you open to any number of problems others have already addressed.
Later you may have some expensive backup satellite connections and you might lay down an undersea fibre link to both the british and continental coasts (you could resell the excess bandwidth with no problem, could be nicely profitable).
Do you envisage pushing the technological envelope to keep your connectivity going when you have multiple connections? Some tricks along the lines of asymetric routing tables, discontiguous EBGP AS path switching, or encrypted vpn tunnels to sympathetic ISPs in a shell game of anonymizing hops like zero knowledge? How closely are you working with your upstream providers to head off problems?
Would you consider reselling vpn endpoints so people could tunnel traffic out of oppressive countries without the local authorities sniffing the traffic for content?
the AC
[who should lose karma for excessive use of buzzwords]
Hemos is like...sci-fi fans;he thinks technology is cool, but he hasn't bothered to understand the science it's based on
As far as I understand, Sealand is a country with its own laws.. So, what else is illegal and legal? What if one of your employees murders another employee, does the case goto a government or is the dispute settled internally?
--
Insert Witty Sig Here
Lauren
--
Lauren Child, lauren@laurenchild.net
I noticed on the Sealand website references to Prince Roy's ill health. With Michael of Sealand on your board of directors, how will the political and business arrangements be handled? In other words, what is the relationship between the Government of Sealand and Havenco? And what will that relationship be should Michael of Sealand ascend to the Throne.
Another question might just be how many businesses and individuals will realize the value of putting their data out of reach.
I haven't seen this question yet, so now I ask. In order to do the proper due dililgence on this matter, I would like to know what you will do when you get shut down? I don't think it likely at all that the UK will not take a serious look at what you are doing and disagree with it. They are not going to allow you to operate within their territorial claim and not be subject to their laws. Period.
;). What do you plan to do when, either the UK invades, the US invades (highly likely from where I sit, there are entirely too many people in this country that think that my business is their business), or some non-governmental organization invades? Why wouldn't some unscrupulous individual bent on corporate espionage and blackmail just hire some mercenaries and come steal your servers?
I've read that you have plans for other locations, but the information was very vague (as is this question
I love the idea, but this is just ridiculous. Unless you've got unlimited capital coming out of your ears, this is not going to happen. Even if the governments leave the physical location alone, they are bound to shut off your land lines. Satellite bandwidth is beyond prohibitively expensive right now and will remain so for many years. Do you plan to launch your own satellite and man your own ground station in some secret location in order to maintain connenctivity? Even that wouldn't be enough. Governments would find that and shut it down too...
(emphasis mine)
Obviously not. If they were, they wouldn't have to pose as officials. They most likely bought false papers from the German businessman who once invaded sealand and kidnapped the Prince's son. (he, the businessman, is still selling false Sealand documents, including passports)
They aren't.
I really don't know. The HavenCo people are pretty well-respected in their fields, though. I'd hope not.
DNA just wants to be free...
If so, they will be emperiled when you are taken to court.
Are you doing everything possible to preserve the "corporate veil" which will protect you and your employees from personal liability?
In other words, are you receiving good legal council from someone versed in international trade?
They're 6 miles from the UK mainland and UK territorial waters extend 12 miles. The only commando raids they are likely to face are from British forces - no one else could do anything.
-- "It's a sad day for American capitalism when a man can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park" - Jim Moran
--
"I find your lack of faith disturbing." -- Darth Vader
How do you plan to keep the Haven's Access lines up in the face of unpredictable weather/cranky governments?
Have you negotiated some type of exclusive privledges for the countries that you must deal with in order to secure that access?
Will your company fight for or against the idea of 'International Online Law'? Something that would apply equaly to all online users, no matter what their physical location?
Are you EMP protected? If I'm a Government who wants to take you out, my first thought is EMPing your haven. I realize that you can't go into details, but how would you avoid this?
One of the longest running free-speech issues on the Net has been between the Church of Scientology and the numerous CoS debunking sites such as Xenu.net. The CoS has vigorously pursued anyone who publishes their secret processes on the internet - they are ruthless, fearless, and most importantly to anyone meaning to host something offshore, they have a NAVY (and Tom Cruise to boot!) If you are truly sovereign, then along with the rights of a sovereign nation come the responsiblities - such as defending yourself from intruders. One of the first groups to seek refuge on your haven will be the Scientology resistance, and you will soon be pitted against Ron's Navy.
Which brings me to my question: Do you have any plans on implementing true physical countermeasures, such as phased-array radar, anti-aircraft weaponry, and hardened gun emplacements?
--
What happens when you outlaw guns
I just want to know how it is powered, and how things like bed-space and hot water, cook, etc work out. I know, not exactly a techie-question, but how else could I ask?
There are four boxes used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order.
Secondly, has any decree been made limiting Sealand's abilities to add something to this list when it becomes inconvenient to host it any longer? If I was planning on hosting content in Sealand, and had gone through all the trouble of colocating, paying for bandwidth, and dealing with all of the requisite hassles of the arrangement, I would still have no guarantee that my site would remain 'legal' in the eyes of Sealand.
The data haven concept worked in Neal Stephenson's Neuromancer because the government had declared that it would make no laws impeding the flow of information. In the absence of something similar I am in fact, more leary about undesirable content being pulled in Sealand than I would be hosting in a jurisdiction where what is allowed and what is not allowed is well defined and harder to change.
What is being done to assure would-be content providers whom wish to host in Sealand?
Sanity is a sandbox. I prefer the swings.
- I noted in the Sealand website:
- Will H/S seek to enter NATO?
- I'm assuming that H/S's physical security threat model includes small merc forces (everyone always trains for the last war). Placing that at one extreme and, say, a cruise missile strike from your favorite Western power at the other extreme, about where (in rough terms) are you planning?
- Sealand seems to have an antagonistic history with the world, as when, in 1990, a ship was fired upon by Sealand (I'll assume there is more history than listed on the website). Given the lack of recognition Sealand already has (a ruling by an internal state court of the United Kingdom does not, in law, have any binding upon the international community), how is H/S planning on fighting the image of H/S as a pirate's den, hosting illegal services in a cutthroat backwater?
- On the Rules of Use, I noticed this worrisome line:
Good luck,HavenCo will now take over operations of the government of Sealand and operate the first datacenter for its secure colocation services from the Sealand sovereign fortress.
First, congratulations! I suppose this would make you Minister of Technology or somesuch. However, given the dim view that many countries will take of this merger, do you anticipate this will place on roadblock on diplomatic efforts by HavenCo/Sealand (H/S)?
This document may change from time to time. Changes go into effect and are applied to all customers from the time that they are posted to the above URL.
While this is a fine statement of principle, given the lack of recourse a business will have (after all, Havenco is the government), what effect do you anticipate this will have on your marketing staff?
cordelia
Information wants to be free
Information wants to be free
So what? Guns want to kill, but we have laws against that.
I think their service is an Internet analog to the many services that provide ways of handling contraband goods.
For instance, let us say you live in a restrictive country, "A," but you are currently visiting country, "B." You find something you would like to buy country B, but cannot legally own it when you are in country A: but you can ship it to a service in country "C!"
Datahaven may be like country C in that you can store your contraband there and access it through someplace in country B without breaking any laws in country A.
But of course, this is all speculation!
-AP
How can you call this post "Redundant" when it is the only post asking this question? I stand by my original post. There are no official photos of Sealand. We would like to see some.
Sealand is obviously in the sea.
I didn't find in the Sealand site geographical information.
How safe is Sealand against sea storms and rust caused by salt water?
__
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
clearly, you folks are in a highly secure location, and can protect your data and hardware from unwanted access. however, what measures do you have in place to protect yourselves from hostile (physical) invasion? considering your unstable relationship with the british government and how the mpaa convinced the sweedish government to raid a kid's house for the decss thing, what is to stop some sort of military/police infiltration of your facility if somebody decides that you are hosting something they don't like?
If I'm not mistaken also the name of a cheap Sea World knock-off located just outside of Rapid City, South Dakota. (Sorry -- no web site)
----
----
Am I the only one who thinks Microsoft is a misnomer? Perhaps Macrosoft would be a better fit?
1) There is a not-all-that-slim chance that if activities began to occur on your data haven that the Western powers disagreed with, they would find a way to excuse an invasion and confiscate your equipment. The obvious wrong answer to this would be to build your own defense. Is such an invasion even a conern for you? Have you given any thought to signing treaties or other such matters of statecraft, or do you think the international community doesn't take you seriously enough to consider such offers?
2) Second, with the coming of sites such as Freenet, do you feel that a data haven such as you have envisioned is still necessary?
- Rev.Arms are the basis for diplomacy. If Sealand had a significant number of citizens under arms, that fact could be used to support diplomatic missions to say, the UN.
Could Sealand manage such distributed armed forces? What about intelligence services? Counter-espionage?
Comments
Stephenson is great, but it might be a good idea to take a page from Gibson (Idoru) concerning establishment of a virtual nation.
Fwiw, there can be no doubt that Sealands existance will not be tolerated by the US. I can't say how the Europeans will see it, but the US govt is a bunch of vicious, ignorant, despots; there is no hope in sight.
The first attacks will doubtless be economic, then physical (in the form of disconnection of backbones, etc), then the knives will come out. You need a deterrent.
You will need enough citizens, widely distributed enough, to prevent the effective use of "precision" tactics the likes of which we saw in the Wavo raid in Texas, the MOVE raid in Philadelphia, the Fremen in Montana, the action in the Balkans, etc. The US has a long history of use of extreme force against small groups of disenfranchised persons who won't conform.
Sealand should serve as a capitol -- the seed for a widely distributed, heavily encrypted data virtual nation. As things stand right now, a single cruise missle could bring this all to an end, and your supporters worldwide would have absolutely no recourse.
Open Source Imperialism
"The Internet is made of cats."
I'm curious to know what platform or platforms you will be running your service off of? My guess would be something like openBSD and solaris w/ some microsoft scattered about for customer compatibility, but what do I know?
Also how will clients access their files and how will those files be stored? Will you be using existing technology now like ssh/https type for the transfer or will you be writing a secure client?
Thanks.
Hmm. Despite an earlier ruling that Sealand lay outside of .uk's territorial waters back in the 3-mile days, the Home Office have announced to the press that Sealand DOES fall under their juristiction for purposes of the RIP bill. Do you have any plans to get official recognition by the European parliment or UK courts of Sealand's status before you go ahead?
--
-=DaveHowe=-
Where's "your line"? I.e. what will you store, and what won't you store? Since you have your own principality, it's not necessarily obvious that certain things that couldn't be stored in the US wouldn't be stored in your data haven.
Also, what are you doing to protect customers? Do you see your data haven as becoming the "Swiss Bank" equivalent for data?
And finally, what kind of hardware/software do you guys have supporting your operation?
-- Truth goes out the door when rumor comes innuendo. -- Groucho Marx
Hmm. I am assuming you expect to get the majority of your business from companies whose host countries have intercept or key escrow provisions in place. What measures do you expect to take to secure the data on the platform and while in transit (both physically and cryptographically)? If a CEO of a customer comes to you and says he needs to obtain a key to his data in your safekeeping, but can't say why, what will your response be?
--
-=DaveHowe=-
I was wondering if you have multiple internet backbone connections. I read something about a microwave link to the mainland, but no details.
Do you have multiple microwave links?
Do you have connections to multiple countries, so the UK can't just shut down your connection?
What is your primary source of electrical power, and how long can you operate with backup power when that fails?
Best Regards,
Local Loop
What kind of planning have you done to guarantee your reliability and the quality of service to your customers? From what I've read to date, you are exclusively relying on wireless connectivity, which can be easily disrupted by storms or satellite failure. To me, that would seem to be a critical single point of failure in a market that simply can't handle the loss of connectivity and remain viable. I'd love to hear the overall strategic planning that you've done to ensure the redundancy of your services, and I'm sure most of the slashdotters would love to hear some specs of the equipment behind your setup! Good luck!
Banking is obviously one of the killer apps for this kind of environment. How would you go about doing that and stay anonymous like cash?
Damnit I love that line. What was it from? I'm thinking the Simpson's but I'm not sure. Family guy maybe?
LiNT
In your FAQ you claim to stand for "unfettered individual freedom" and I absolutely applaud that. In your acceptable use policy, you forbid practices that are illegal in the jurisdiction of the originating server. Sealand, of course, can have any laws the one or few people in charge want for it. Having said this, how do you guarantee that a principality that can change its laws on a whim and with no notice will maintain the spirit of "unfettered individual freedom?" I ask this especially in light of the fact that you also have an open-ended policy: "Unacceptable publications include, but are not limited to...". This means that your storage facility (which reserves the right to "police or monitor" network use but claims it "will not necessarily") can decide that it doesn't like what someone is doing with their server hosted at HavenCo, monitor their traffic for a while, deem it illegal, and then shut them down- and all of this without notice. What guarantees do you plan to give your clients that their data will be safe, that they will be ensured anonymity, that they will not be discriminated against because of content, and that their contracts are valid in a "principality" with a whimsical at best legal system?
I really like this idea and I want it to work. At the moment, however, your facility seems less secure and less free of the threat of content discrimination than it would be under the jurisdiction of many other countries. Other countries have more than one person deciding what's "acceptable;" a redundant system where what is "unacceptable" can be argued among many of the people it affects. I know that the idea is that you will restrict very little, but can you ensure that this idea will not change?
Do something about world hunger. Click here
Do you plan to offer anonymous internet access through tunnelling ?
I mean, people could connect to their local ISP, set up a TCP/IP tunnel between you and them, and then use all the internet behind a masqueraded, and virtually completely anonymous IP. (As long as you never disclose their identity).
Sure, this would suck 2 times the bandwidth normally needed, but that's the price for complete anonymity...
Do you think that kind of setup could work ?
Could it make a consistent business model for data haven like yours ?
Even if encryption was eating lots of computational resources, do you believe in hardware VPNs that could improve the scalability of the setup ?
This would finally settle the lack of anonymity on the internet for people who really want it.
"The obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers." Bill Gates,
With todays less than friendly legal climate, and more and more countries trying to gain a strangle hold on electronic communication, it is getting harder and harder to act in the liberal spirit of the Net of Old.
For example take the ever popular Napster, they are just providing the service, however they are the ones getting sued. You also are just providing a service. Do you have a plan worked out in case say, a ceartain sold out "heavy" metal band, sues you for housing their copyrighted works on your servers for a client? In the US ISP's are not responsible for any illegal activity that passes throught their gates. But you are not in the US and copyright law exists internationally.
Along a similar vein just because you can claim soverignty doesn't mean that you will be treated with love and respect from the international community. When the Big 8 says open up to our assorted policing organizations or we will cut your bandwidth off. Or just making it illegal for their citizens to do business with you, like offshore banks. Do you have a plan to protect your exisiting customers assets in case (or more likely, when) such a situation occurs?
Speakerftd
-Nothing is worse than flying monkey crap on your windshield.
It's not clear to me if these weapons were destined for Africa as a final destination or a layover point to arm Sealand. The timing seems right. You'll have to excuse Reuters's bias against the country.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Without a State to "protect" you, do you fear that either amongst yourself or from some other state's armed forces?
Are you afraid y'all might get pissed off at each other and become physically abusive to each other?
Are you afraid you might be pushed off the island by the paramillitary forces of another nation? Will you arm yourself to prevent this?
Given the lack of legal remedies in Sealand, why do you think companies will trust you to make business contracts?
--Danka, who likes kids, but wouldn't want to eat one
Lots of people are asking questions about physical security, and how you're going to repel missiles and commandos, but I've got the opposite question: why do you need physical security and a physical location at all? Would not the best way to protect your customers' data be to wrap it in hard crypto and distribute it far and wide across the whole of the net, ensuring that there is not a single point of failure or a single physical installation that can be isolated?
As we've seen again and again recently, the best protection against censorship and other legal attacks is massive redundancy and decentralization.
They really need to get those AA guns replaced to deal with this sort of threat. Apparently those platforms were quite succesful during the Second World War.
According to the Sealand Government web site, Havenco "will now take over operations of the government of Sealand." As I understand the other text on the same page, it is generally believed that the government of the UK would not interfere in any acts of piracy, terrorism, or assault on your "territory." Since you are now within the limits of the territorial waters claimed by the UK, you probably won't have to worry about a full-out assault from a sovereign nation, but another attack like that of 1978 could happen again. Of course, there is nothing but a few court rulings to protect you from Her Majesty's Armed Forces.
Given the precarious nature of the "sovereignty" of Sealand, will you be seeking international recognition and treaties to guarantee your physical security from such attacks? Will you be joining any of the international protocols for cooperation in law enforcement or other areas? I would think that joining these would go a long way to cementing your viability.
Just be sure to wear the gold uniform when you beam down -- you know what happens when you wear the red one.
After reading your TOS I have become rather curious in regards to the following cluase:
Unacceptable publications include, but are not limited to:
In the case of the Sealand datacenter, what are some of the limitations?
Please note that in the following examples I am not equating one example with any other or implying that any of the following should be censored; rather they are examples of what I would consider sticky wickets when running a "data haven" and wonder how such things will be handled.
Imagine the following:
I am a rabid anti-choice activist in the United States. I wish to post a site with a hit list of doctors performing abortions in the United States. After each "accident" I wish to mark them with a big red X. I publish detailed information on how to find each of these doctors.
Is this site permitted?
I am a hacker who wants to play DVDs on my Linux box and I want to use free software. I want to place source code on my website. The United States says this violates some stupid law and some annoying people object.
Is this site permitted?
I am a devote Iron Chef fan and Fuji TV has just sent me a cease and desist order. I wish to move my materials to Sealand.
Is this site permitted?
I am a regular guy in the UK creating a website about my daily life. Some people don't like the way I talk about them and my site is pulled.
Is this site permitted?
Will you allow sites advocating the overthrow of rival goverments, challenged uses of intellectual property, bomb making instructions, and other information that will get other nation-states panties in a twist?
~~ What's stopping you?
Do you have any plans to find other locations to house your customers data? I mean, if the British Navy decides to overthrow your island one day due to presure from the RIAA (it could happen!), would you be able to switch to an equally secure loaction elsewhere without loosing data or disrupting service.
Any plans on setting up shop on that new volcanic island in the South Pacific?
"Tomorrow's forecast: a few sprinkles of genius with a chance of doom!" - Stewie Griffin
Secondly, how do you plan to handle "controversial" materials? There was a story on /. recently about someone who had their Web site removed because they expressed religious views some script kiddies disagreed with. How far are you willing to go to defend my right to say X on your servers, if that reduces your ability to serve pages?
Also, what about illegal material? Granted, you fall under Sealand's laws, but that won't help if all the major countries label you a terrorist or a con man or something. How will you respond to not-so-subtle pressure to remove certain sites, if it doesn't violate your AUP? If you stand up to them, do you have redundant Internet connections in case one of them is through a country that doesn't like you?
TO BUY A NEW CAR WOULD MAKE YOU SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE.
Other than because it's bad business, how can you make certain that some Sealand force (teh government, the People's Revolutionary Socialist United Islamic Free Open-Source Front of Sealand, a distant cousin of the Royal family) won't decide to deprive you from access to your equipment? I mean, they have no guaanteed stability?
Of course, you'll have country redundancy. But, are you ready to launch a coup to control Sealand?
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Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
Were you inspired to construct a data haven by Neal Stephenson's novel Cryptonomicon or did you arrive at the idea through some other route?
I have sometimes thought that Neal's true purpose in writing the book was to lay out the business and moral case for a data haven so that a royal family sitting on an island nation somewhere would read it and say,"That's what we need to do!"
But what about a physical postal service? If I where to stick a postcard in the (UK royal mail) post box addressed to someone (member of staff) on the island, would it get there?
Thad
Thad
How can you be sure that HavenCo/Sealand is not going to have the data it will carry compromised by organised crime in the same way that Sealand's passport and currency system was?
Do you also think that the venture will attract people who are willing to take this risk to retain their free speech or will it just attract people that Customs in Felixstowe will just find too tempting to pass up?
Teamwork is essential. It gives the enemy someone else to shoot at
Not that I would have any...
Sealand (heavy electronics, off populated places,...) seems the best place for an attack with an ElectroMagnetic Pulse.
The best known source of EMPs are nuclear blasts in the high atmosphere. But I don't doubt that our governments are researching this "for our security"? Can your facilities stand an EMP?
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Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
The website describes services based on owning/renting a physical machine, at prices appropriate for corporate use or 'swiss bank account' private use.
Are there any plans to operate marginally less secure systems sharing the data of several customers and used for anything from Freenet repositories to napster directories and POP servers ? Or would you prefer to sell complete servers to ASP operaters for this sort of subdivided resell ?
Given that:
Then:
1. What sort of data needs extraterritorial protection?
2. Who guarantees your physical security. For example, if you host data considered by some government to be a threat to them, who will defend you against commando raids, air strikes, and the like?
---- "When I grow up, I'll know far less"
Many people seem to be concerned with "how will you defend yourselves against X (terrorists, other countries, etc,etc)?" My question is, when the time comes that some portion of HavenCo (or its users) upsets a country and/or corporation and physical confrontation is literally minutes away, How do you properly dispose of mass volumes of data in as secure a manner as possible? Also, How do you intend to prove to your customers your commitment to keeping their data and identities secure? As HavenCo's website implies, there is more then one place to host a Data Haven, but that does no good if you find it more cost effective to bend to strong arm tactics then to literally destroy your business and start over again. Lastly, what security will you offer your customers against YOU? How can it be displayed that you are not logging customer data Before, during, or after its stay within HavenCo systems? Thanks!
Seeing as you are so close to the shores of the UK do all of your connections run into the UK, or have you a connection running into a more liberal legal regieme?
Don't say it can't/won't happen. Unfortunately, it can and probably will.
You can never equivocate too much.
It appears that HavenCo has pretty much taken over most of the operations of the Government of Sealand. This reminds me a lot of the ideas in Shadowrun where corporations demand extraterritoriality. While it seems unlikely to happen within most countries, do you see the creation of "Island Havens", man-made islands out beyond established territorial limits as the way many corporations will in the future use international law to escape the restrictions they currently face?
Do you see corporations taking over/buying out smaller countries in order to create corporate friendly governments?
How, generally speaking, are you handling physical security at Sealand? Private guards and/or hired mercenaries, evil high-tech lazer defense systems, rabid dogs with bees in their mouths so that when they bark they shoot bees at you, what?
... I'm sure the UK will look after you in that regard. Specifically, are you prepared for a businessman bringing in a private mercenary force? It's happened before, after all.
I mean, Sealand's already been taken by military force once, and back then it didn't even have anything more interesting on it than a self-proclaimed prince, his wife, and their heir apparent.
Now, you've got some very very valuable data to protect, and while the equipment may theoretically be tamper-proofed, I would hope that that is not your _only_ assurance of security.
I'm not talking about full-blown military incursions, either
DNA just wants to be free...
As someone who has worked for a few small businesses, I've been able to witness the effects of starting up first hand and I've noticed it is quite hard. As someone who is the CTO of an organization that operates in its own country I'm wondering what kind of steps people must take to become a country. Yes I know you need some other country to acknowledge your legal existance but what about simple things like getting snail mail delivered or having your own olympic team or entering the World Cup. What if you wanted to join the United Nations. How do you adopt your own currency, how do you get listed in my Almanac. Everyone has always dreamed of being able to wisk away to their own private island without any laws but what about the little benefits of having your own country such as those. How do you make them happen, what does it cost? Who runs it?
"Calling EMACS an editor is like calling the Earth a hunk of dirt" - Chris DiBona
The only photos of Sealand are on an unofficial page. Is there any chance of getting some "official" photos, including living quarters?
What company is providing *you* with networking on Sealand? Is it possible that they could be liable under the laws in their own country for traffic coming out of Sealand? It's possible that this could negate any benefit to setting up a Sealand server.
Several come to mind... First, is Havenco hiring? It would be cool to work in a datahaven. Second of all what would HavenCo do if all of their outside access was cut off, either by hostile intent or by bureaucratic nonsense? Pretty neat, if you can keep other people from trying to regulate you or put you out of business.
Network penetration is network engineering, in reverse.
Libertarian ideas aren't altruism, they're pure self serving desire for freedom - and the right to prosper. If they want to make staggeringly huge amounts of money from this, all the better.
I have only one question. Will you have relations, and on what level, with Zeroknowledge's Freedom? Good luck Sean
It was from the Simpsons; I beleive from the episode when Mr. Burns briefly makes Bart his heir.
Homer was at Burns' house trying to get Bart back and was speculating in Mr. Burns' security measures (remember, he is fond of releasing the hounds upon unwelcome visitors). I think, tho, that the weapon used against Homer this time was the robotic Richard Simmons.
Also of note, a recent episode of Malcom in the Middle featured his dad constructing a war robot with a "laser guided bee cannon".
(90% of my TV viewing consists of Fox' 7-10pm sunday night lineup starting with Futurama and lasting through the X-Files)
john
Imagine all the people...
How are you going to get a decent connection on an off-shore anti-aircraft bunker? Is BT going to run some fiber to you? If so, wouldn't that just put you right back under the surveilance you were trying to avoid?
What's brown and sounds like a bell? Dung! --Eric Idle
from the times article: "Soon it will be impossible to trace where money is and who has money, and that will eventually force governments to move away from income taxes and toward consumption taxes."
could you elaborate? Does SeaLand aim to offer a currency and tax transactions?
An enemy wants to force you to do something you don't want (revealing a customer's name, data, removing customer's data,...) by threatening your off-Sealand staff, family, property,..., legally or illegally (see Salman Rushdie).
How long will you go to comply with your clients?
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Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
What is the age of adulthood in Sealand?
If somebody does business with you, which country/tribunal does the contract fall under? What can a customer do if they feel you are not playing fair? Or do they have to simply trust you?
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Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
Second, what will you do about massively copyright-infringing sites, for example, if somebody were to move Lyrics.CH (as it was) to your servers, how do you think you would you handle the resulting pressures?
Vinay Kumar Gupta
Hexayurt - open source refugee shelter,
The question doesn't make sense. Free speech is free speech. Illegal speech is not free speech. For supporters of free speech, there is no such thing as "illegal data".
Having said that, the other posters here are correct... HavenCo isn't taking such a bold stance. They won't allow "illegal data." Read the FAQ... er, actually, the Acceptable Use Policy.
MSK
Seriously, folks... you can get a job as a tech anywhere, but wouldn't it just be *cool* to get to be the Earl of something as a result?
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All employees must wash hands before seeking equitable relief.
Then, buoyed by the apparent immunity, somebody else will do it. Then another bloke will do the same.
This will go on until her majesty's government is sufficiently annoyed and the Royal Navy is dispatched to forcibly reclaim british sovereignty over your bunker.
What will you do?
--
Here's my mirror
This is a silly one I know...
:)
I used to have a cool zippo lighter with the word 'Sealand' on the face, with some kind of red and blue logo thing. I don't remember specifically the shape of the logo or whatever, but the point is I never knew what the hell Sealand was, I just thought it looked cool.
Now I know what it is, and I've lost the lighter
What I want to know is, did these ever exist? Were they 'genuine'? Does anyone else have one / remember having one?
The Unfettered Mind: Takuan Sôhô - ISBN: 0-87011-851-X
henry [ w i r e t r a p . n e t ]
Ooo! The more interesting question to ask is:
:-)
Can I get (either for free, or since this is a business, for pay) an email address at havenco.com, or some other domain hosted at Sealand?
In reality, the most important data any person or organization has is their email! It can be read, spied on, subpoenaed, etc. I'd pay MONEY for this service.
Will Sealand be getting a top-level country code? If so, you could also sell domains, but let me say that I think the hottest idea is selling web-based email accounts.
Dibs on "billg@havenco.com"
I think you really have to be a little humor-impaired to take the whole thing seriously...
Find free books.
You claim to be a few millseconds by optical fiber from London. I recall some talk about satellite links.
If your link to London falls, can you still give good connectivity (latency and bandwidth)?
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Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
I'm sure you know the extent of what you're getting into. This data haven represents an international "threat" to security/intelligence, a threat that sooner or later I expect a country's intelligence agency will choose to deal with.
My question is: how far are you willing to go with this data haven? It seems to mean much more to you than just a cool networking phenomenon; are you willing to fight and even die for these ideals?
-peeto
Cretin - a powerful and flexible CD reencoder
Sorry for the repost, but it occured to me that I had posted my question under another thread. I have one question. Do/will you have relations with ZeroKnowledge's Freedom, and if so, to what degree? Good luck, Sean
If you are requested to disclose the contents of a server under RIP, will you claim to be in the UK, or outside it ? How strongly will you assert this ?
Is Tibet Online really a site that needs HavenCo protection? Do China's complaints about such a site get heard at all in the US (where the site appears to be hosted), where it's so clearly a matter of protected political speech?
I guess I want to know how this is more than an empty marketing move to move the spotlight over to the more honorable uses of havenco's services.
echo Prpv a\'rfg cnf har cvcr | tr Pacfghnrvp Cnpstuaeic
You say in the FAQ that you won't store things which are illegal in the client's country. It seems to me like one of the most important attributes of a data haven would be its ability to let people escape oppresive governments. If they can't do this, then what are they gaining by going to you with their data?
There's reasons for everything, from "because it's cool" to "because I sense a great need for this". On which end of the spectrum is Havenco?
I can see the need for more privacy in the days of increasing legislation, but what do you say to those who assume you're doing what you're doing to help the shady side of the world? What are you hoping to accomplish, and due to the nature of your company, can/will you be doing anything to keep your service legitimate without becoming the entity that you appear to be positioning yourself against?
Setting up a company on a remote island, even one that doesn't require a lot of on-site workers, was undoubtably difficult.
:)
What were the major challenges of setting up on the island? How many people, and what sort of equipment did it take? Is there more left to do?
What are some of your day-to-day facilities like (food, shelter, perhaps even recreation)?
What is your daily cash burn rate? Are there ways to cut it?
Are you making a profit now? If not, when do you plan to be able to?
Do you have a plan in case of a hostile take-over?
Where can I send my resume?
Interesting concept...I wish you luck!
-AP