Slashdot Mirror
MSNBC Accused of Rigging OS Poll
KlausBreuer writes "According to the German news report Heise MSNBC has produced a poll for the most popular operating system.
This time, the poll was rigged rather blatantly: Friday morning, Linux hat 28% (18.500) of the vote, but miraculously dropped to 3% by sunday evening (European time).
It appears that 126.500 votes came in on Sunday - all of them for Windows." Now, not knowing people at MSNBC or anything like that, I would offer the possibly that someone ran a script against it. These things have been known to happen before. Thanks to Donald van de Weyer who pointed out that this originally appeared on LinuxToday.
The page in question is in German (duh), so here is ye olde Bablefish translation:
Web inquiry:
Windows quite far in front In the inquiry after the best operating system on MSNBC the page turned in wondrous way. If morning was appropriate still for Linux, like reported, with 28% of 18.500 voices in guidance on Friday, then the voice proportion of the free operating system sank until Sunday evening on 3% of 384.848 voices. The inquiry took a strange process: Thus Linux achieved a high on Saturday mornings against 3 o'clock with 39% - from that up to then delivered 29,100 voices approximately 11,350 was allotted to the free operating system. In the following 20 hours 126,500 voices were then added, from which however 800 (according to 0.6%) was surprisingly only allotted to Linux. Thus the being correct proportion doubled itself both from Windows 95/98/ME and NT/2000. now moves with some the suspicion, there must have been manipulated. Trust no statistics, which you did not falsify...
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Kinda messy, but I didn't want to change it from what BF put it as.
-Frijoles-
If it's Perl, then you don't need the semi-colon, as it's the last line in the while block.
Find funky gifts
but somebody created a bot. We in the BeOS community knew of this poll a while ago. It was attached to a story on Mac OS X. The day the story broke, BeOS was way in the lead (with nearly 40% at peak). Now I would assume, the story would not be read as much after the initial day of release. At that time, something like 40,000 people had voted. This weekend, you could literally watch 500 votes added every 10 seconds for windows. Some Win2k fanatic rigged a bot to vote. Now at well over 500,000 votes, Win2k is way ahead. Whatever. What is the truth? Who knows. The poll was biased already by us Be-ers who went and voted the first day. Nothing can be gleaned by the poll IMHO.
You mean like in elections?
"Hot lesbian witches! It's fucking genius!"
(2) LinuxToday did not ask the readers to rig the poll, just to go and vote.
Which in and of itself, rigs the poll.
The poll was meant for MSNBC readers; it wasn't meant for Linux Today to send lots of people who didn't regularly read MSNBC to tip the balance.
Announcing the poll skews the results. It's meant to be a poll of their *regular readership*.
Not that it matters anyway.
Si
Coming soon - pyrogyra
I found that I had the same exact problem, not only there but on other sites also. I was told that I needed cookies enabled. I checked and sure enough, they were.
What do they want?
"Take my advice, I'm not using it!"
www.slightlycrewed.com - Because aren't we all?
Enjoy Pudge's semi-smug commenting on his own fracas in the above link.
By this definition you are saying that the way Americans are voting is unscientific and unreliable.
Perhaps they should elect their president with a scientific poll?
It would increase voter turnout for non-Presidential elections, at the very least. Still, there is the problem of people who want to be politically vocal but who happened to eat out the evening the pollster called for their vote...
Naked.
Hmm you mean kind of like when there's a Linux poll and Slashdot announces it? Then all the Slashdot readers run like rabid dogs over to the website to vote for linux? I think we've all witnessed that several times.
So are you upset over the fact that some online Windows magazine beat you to the punch of rigging the results or something?
is no malice intended, just that people who like Windows and read MSNBC all spend their Saturday evenings online reading MSNBC and for a real blast, take the online polls! Get a life, Windows users.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
"As a keen[1] student[2] of footnotes,[3,4] I have long[14]"
Stop spreading FUD.
Tell that to The Register - they reported it first.
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Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
I just don't see why everyone's so uptight over this. It's not like it's impossible or anything....
Let's suppose that this is just a statistical fluke and that the actual percentage of Windows users is indeed 100% - 28% = 72%. (Sorry, Mac users, but you are too busy playing with your cubes to vote anyway). The chance that 126500 consecutive "Go Windows Woo!!" votes came in is merely 2.75 * 10^18047 to 1. Far from impossible--what say we give the impartial folks over at MSNBC the benefit of the doubt?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Heaven forbid that Windows won the poll because most of the world's computer users run windows, and after Linux picked up a bunch of votes early on (Likely because assorted Linux sites saw the poll and linked.) Windows won out over the weekend.
I don't like M$, and I hate Windows, but how can you not expect Windows to win a poll on a news site? Especially one frequented by Windows users that get there via IE's built in links or links from MSN!
Windows won this poll because most of the world's computer users buy a PC, and run Windows because Windows comes with the PC. Those people outnumber Linux lovers now, and will continue to for quite some time. Stop creating a conspiracy where there isn't one.
Don't complain about lack of options- You've got to pick a few when you do multiple choice. Those are the breaks.
This whole thing is wildly inaccurate. Rounding errors, ballot stuffers, dynamic IPs, firewalls. If you're using these numbers to do anything important- you're insane.
--
"A witty saying proves nothing" - Voltaire
Actually, Nader is included in most polls, as is Buchanan. They usually score about 3% and 2%, respectively.
I have been contacted for a political poll once. It was reasonably well balanced, asking questions like, "Of the following candidates, for whom are you most likely to vote?" Then they mention the candidates' names in a random order. The question was brought up about three times (phrased differently) total in the poll, mixing up the names each time. The whole thing lasted about ten minutes or so.
I believe that they mix up the names to weed out the people who will automatically answer with the first name, and get real results.
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
Because of people who don't want to "waste their vote," and people not being aware of less high-profile candidates, which candidates are listen in a poll can affect the results of future polls, by increasing or decreasing awareness of certain candidates.
I don't think this means that every candidate should appear in every poll...you might get people saying they'll vote for Bo Gritz or something just because they haven't heard of him.
That would be a bit skewed. I (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) have to use MonopolyNT at work with IE and so some of my server logs would come from NT and not from Linux. It would still be quite interesting though, I agree.
The facts:
(1) if you read the LinuxToday responses carefully you will find that no more than 2 or 3 respondents said they voted twice. And you do not know how much their votes swayed the results, so stop the false accusations. You do not have any evidence.
(2) LinuxToday did not ask the readers to rig the poll, just to go and vote.
(3) if you read the story carefully again, you will find that Linux actually LOST votes during the poll.
(4) one person rigging polls after another person rigs polls does not make it right. Two wrongs do not make a right. Another example of MS apologist hysteria on Slashdot was the article about MS using Solaris/FreeBSD to run hotmail. Immedialty, we had screams from the MS Zealots that SUN no doubt use Windows PCs in their office. So what? No body was touting Sun as the next "unix-killer". Sun definately use Solaris (and other UNIXs to run their web-site) so why all the hysteria? Even if they did not, again one person being a hypocrite, and another person being a hypocrite does not make a right.
Besides, who believes that the majority of people who vote on places such as CNN or MSNBC know anything about the technical superiourity of the various OSen? These polls are worthless to anyone but the most ill-informed; the average Joe will probably be annoyed that his brand-new Dell with the $150 Win2k "upgrade" doesn't run his games as well as his "free" Win98 that came with it. The 14-yr old script kiddie, who just read about Linux may vote for it, reagardless of knowing anything but the most cursory knowledge about it. Face it--popularity contests for these things are meaningless, except to the marketing departments.
That said, I applaud Hemos for giving MSNBC the benefit of the doubt. I just wish /. editorial crew contacted MSNBC and found out the real story (though they may already be doing this...)
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Let me see, if there are ever any polls on the web for OS'es, what do we do, we hit them with scripts and basically fudge the results so Linux wins.
:)
Now a company fudges their results and we complain. Everyone (us and them) knows polls are meaningless marketing tools, so who cares?
I'll laugh if any threads pop up here about the need for validity of poll results and how they should be true reflections of the internet population. Fat chance
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I had always heard Twain, perhaps you are correct
Read my plan to save the Bengals
Does anyone here really believe that any Microsoft-affiliated organisation would actually run such a poll if they thought it possible that Linux would come out on top?
That would fly in the face of all we know about Microsoft. They would only put up such a poll if they were assured of winning it. Whether they rigged it by pushing up Windows votes, or by disallowing certain browsers/architectures from posting, I think we can be pretty much guaranteed that should Linux have stayed ahead, something would mysteriously have happened to the poll.
In interfering with the poll on the MSNBC site, if in fact they did, Microsoft have violated the integrity of MSNBC as a "news-gathering organisation". However, as news is not Microsoft's core business, it isn't surprising that something like this has come to light. If they can't show integrity in their core business, how can they be expected to do so anywhere else.
Bzzzzzt..."AAAAaaaaarrrgh!!!" Thud.
It is commonly believed in Germany that this quote is from W. Churchill.
Indeed it is from Joseph Goebbels (Nazi Propaganda Minister) who claimed it was from Churchill.
--
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
If an online poll marked a "no response" category for every webhit that didn't vote we'd see an alarming amount of apathy...
Interesting how a no response is seen as "apathy". Especially with a poll lacking a "none of the above", "not interested", etc type catagory.
Ah yes. I remember I saw a similar disclaimer somewhere. It was some obscure site with some punctuation in its name.
Slashdot Poll:
This whole thing is wildly inaccurate. Rounding errors, ballot stuffers, dynamic IPs, firewalls. If you're using these numbers to do anything important- you're insane.
So close, yet so far... ;)
Just putting in my $.02 here also.
It is strange how a jump like that occured, but does it really matter?
Do you think a poll such as that is going to make you or myself go "Oh my god, according to this poll, Widows is SO much better. I've got to change my OS right away!"
I really don't think so. I believe the people who like Linux will stay with it. The ones who finally get fed up with MS will one day migrate over.
Polls are meaningless and by reading the previous posts, we all tend to agree.
"Take my advice, I'm not using it!"
www.slightlycrewed.com - Because aren't we all?
Or in this case... whose poll is it anyway? With your host MSNBC... Yes, it's the poll where the results are made up and the points don't matter, yes they don't matter, just like a tooth brush to the British they just don't matter....
(sorry to all those brits out there, I know it was a little scathing, but laugh a little, ok?)
Wheeeee
Microsoft's business tactics are cutthroat and unfair.
They have never even tried to hide this fact. Even during the anti-trust trial, Microsoft breached the anti-trust laws flagrantly.
Why would they suddenly show a desire to be seen as nice guys? They hold their monopoly, they still abuse it, and Linux is (however distant) a threat to their market.
I don't believe Microsoft's image is of huge concern to them. The vast majority of people don't care about Microsoft's morals, or lack of them. Many highly-principled people the world over use Microsoft operating systems, because they believe it's easier, regardless of what Microsoft may have done to some other people, some other company. Microsoft know this. They will keep knocking Linux, and MSNBC will continue to broadcast more anti-UNIX/Linux stories than any other news agency.
Most new UNIX vulnerabilities are highlighted on MSNBC in big headlines, and are kept around for a few days, linked from the main page of the site. Vulnerabilities in Microsoft operating systems are briefly reported with a reassuring promise from some Microsoft big-shot & quickly swept under the carpet. If you disagree with me on this, then please watch MSNBC a little closer, you might be surprised at what you see.
I wasn't.
Bzzzzzt..."AAAAaaaaarrrgh!!!" Thud.
I guess that MSNBC will have to apologize to its viewer and its web audience. Ballot stuffing is nothing new. Just take a look at out Judicial Quota System; I'll bet that Antonin Scalia got shoved in there by all those conservative senators, who are also the result of ballot stuffing. Nothing new, for we all know who the real President of the United States is: a Mr. William C. Gates, III.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
The real problem is that it's those vocal minorities who will go out and vote, while the apathetic majority stays home on the couch.
More likely the vocal minority are busy lobbying full time. (The only difficult bit here is the first part of "bootstrap" lobbying to get themselves funded.) Whilst other people have to spend their time doing other things, like earning a living.
Most Microsoft users aren't fanatical about their OS. I know that some are (I work with one), but for the most part people run Windows because that's what came with their systems and they don't know any better
Except that only a very small proportion of fanatical Microsofters still adds up to a lot of fanatics...
There is certainly no shortage of such people posting to everywhere from Slashdot to ZDNET.
Just out of curiousity, has any statistically accurate polls ever been done on this topic? If so, anyone know where the results can be found? Or, is it possible to try and push one of the news corporations into performing such a poll?
...anybody notice the MICROSOFT prefix in MSNBC?
Wouldn't that imply a *cough* SLIGHT bias in the polls?
Windows won, gee imagine that... duh
Eternity: will that be smoking, or non-smoking? I Corinthians 6:9-10
Incompetent press more like. Their JavaScript generator is a bit crap. Use Mozilla or Galeon, they work fine.
Bzzt. Godwin's Law does not state that the invoker of Hitler, Nazism, or whatever loses. It merely states that the discussion is over at that point.
Ugh. This got modded up? While I can appreciate Godwin's Law in circumstances where it is warranted, some people can't seem to recognize a valid analogy even if it sits on their face and wiggles. When someone makes a comparison to Nazis or Hitler to discredit or silence the opposition, then Godwin's Law should certainly apply. However, when some Nazi-related idea or symbol is used simply to illustrate a point rather than to attack the opposition, why should it be declared invalid?
Personally, I think there should be a similar law invoked when people try to declare that the opposition supports child pornography if they don't agree with censorship. I lost count of how many times people tried to play the child pornography card in the discussion of the Freenet story earlier. It amounts to the same thing as playing the Nazi card really.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Wassn't there a story about some idiot on CBS.com wrtting about how linux was the worst OS ever? MS has deep pockets for people lije this.
hemos tried to paint slashdot as victim of votebots, when in fact, the editors encouraged the readers to slashdot polls all over the place; actually this was the original sense of "to slashdot", that was what happened to a poll when rob posted a link to it in a story and asked everybody to vote "linux" or "MS should be split". and at a time where there was no moderation, and the editors deleted comments, they tolerated people posting votebots on the forums.
Kevin Reichard posts a number of links to polls on various ZDNet, MSNBC, CNN websites encouraging readers of linuxtoday to go out and stuff the ballot box.
:(
Then on one of the polls their is a movement by some other group of Windows users to go out and stuff the ballot box in return.
And Linux Today accuses Microsoft of cheating?
I don't get it.
Maybe if it'd been a fair and realistic poll, but the Linuxtoday editors pretty much destroyed that when they decided to encourage stuffing the ballot box.
They sad thing is Kevin Reichard probably doesn't even realize the harm he is doing to the Linux community by encouraging online poll stuffing.
I suspect Kevin used to be a member of Team OS/2.
So some online poll on some website is showing fluctuations. Where one option was leading earlier, another one is now. What am I missing? Why in the world is this news?
You are missing the magnitude of the fluctuations. Read again how many votes per minute had been registered on Saturday and Sunday, compared to Thursday and Friday. I haven't seen any rational explanation for this, other than a script feeding the voting form, or direct results manipulations on the site itself.
Yep, this is called a self-selecting population, and it's really bad for your statistics. This becomes worse in things like political polls where people are self-selecting. You end up getting situations where vocal minorities who really do care about an issue can completely outweigh moderate or even apathetic majorities.
It's also a problem in other self-selecting poll situations like elections. Especially the part about vocal minorities.
I have discovered a truly marvelous sig, unfortunately the sig limit is too small to contain i
That's why I don't understand why people complain about advocacy sites promoting polls. If the advocacy sites are doing their jobs, then the poll will be mentioned on every relevant site.
Given the complete unreliability of online polls, why the hell not use them as a tool to promote your favourite OS? It's not like you're perverting the otherwise correct statistics. They're wrong whether you stuff the ballot or not.
Because it is almost invariably used to raise the amount of
righteous indignation involved in an argument. It is usually
unnecessary: there are usually less emotive examples.
No-one ever believes these polls. People with vested interests always try to rig them (note that Linux Today asked all its readers to go vote for Linux, which is the sole reason why Linux was ever ahead). Grow up, and move along - there's nothing to see here.
nal 11
One vote per IP? Not really good. I can have legit multiple votes per IP:
*) If I'm coming through a proxy. Do X million AOL users get only 40 or so votes between them because they all come through the same proxies?
*) A NAT box. I have about 14 192.168's behind a single NAT box. DO we only get one vote per company?
*) Multiple users on a machine. If I have a huge server, and I have a few users on it, each running their own browser.
Web polls suck, nearly impossible not to fake.
I don't see the problem with the argument here. It's either a valid argument or it's not. The fact that it mentions Nazis doesn't have any bearing on the validity of the argument. Some people may have trouble seeing the validity or lack thereof due to the mention of Nazis, but that's just a reflection of their ability to reason.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
You're correct, of course. I was using the term incorrectly. Of course the poster I responded to was apparently using it incorrectly as well, or at least in the incorrect context (i.e. not in a Usenet thread).
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Nope Fred moony used to hang with microsoft, and his assertion was, that linux was bad becuase it had more bug posted on bug track that win2k. The funny thing is, his math was off. He miscounted the number of bugs, and by his argument, windows sucked big time.
But why no votes for Hank The Angry, Drunken Dwarf?
I think the MS stands for "Madman Stallman". ;)
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"A witty saying proves nothing" - Voltaire
This news has been on Linux Today all weekend, The original fixing was done by LT readers who all went and voted for Linux. MSNBC just "fixed" it back.
However, when some Nazi-related idea or symbol is used simply to illustrate a point rather than to attack the opposition, why should it be declared invalid?
Quite simple... in logic, it's what's known as using loaded terminology to make a (false) argument. Godwin's law applies here because using a Nazi-analogy (or reference to ideological works of Nazism) inherently invokes a negative response in people. Basically you're making an attempt at appealing to people's emotions, because your logic is flawed and standard rational argumentation won't get you anywhere. There are plenty of analogies that can be used to illustrate any point without invoking Godwin's law.
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Dave
MicrosoftME®? No, Microsoft YOU, buddy! - my boss
- Dave
This story is in german. I bet suse will win
Much applause to Hemos for taking a neutral stance and giving MSNBC the benefit of the doubt. I seriously doubt that they would have done something so obvious when one half of the MS/NBC partnership so desperately needs to start reconstructing their image as a company that ISN'T cutthroat and unfair.
Addlepated - punk & metal
Check it out here.
Now, not knowing people at MSNBC or anything like that, I would offer the possibly that someone ran a script against it. These things have been known to happen.
Why Hemos, what ever could you mean?
-toup
Please ... MS doesn't need to send their employees to web sites to rig polls. They have lots of moronic Windows lovers who are happy to do that for them. People thought Mac and OS/2 zealots were bad.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
In this particular case, I have seen no evidence whatsoever that Micro$oft did it. There are NT fanatics outside Micro$oft, you know. There are also people that will do this just for fun, so as to get M$ to be bashed again on Slashdot.
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Linux user since early January 1992.
0, oops no wait I mean 1. AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhh! (*ethereal falls into the chasm*)
Your right to not believe: Americans United for Separation of Church and
the real question is by who(m)?
If it's some fanboy group, windot.org or whatever, big deal... who cares. Every fan group does it. BUT... If it's by a higher power, (and I've heard of microsoft doing things like this in the past) then it's a very big deal, and needs to be exposed and milked for all it's worth.
if they can find out, that will make all the difference. I'd like to know the "who".
________
Got Rhinos?
I've talked to a few California state employees (IT decision makers) who seem to be the most mis-informed people around (They installed a brand new token ring network two years ago at one agency - they felt etherenet was insecure).
On the plus side, some publications are starting to look at Linux seriously. In fact, Government Technology Magazine just ran an entire Linux _supplement_ (not part of their usual coverage mind you).
My suggestion is to tell at least one person outside of geekdom what is really going on. Perhaps your waitress tonight. Or some guy on the bus... anyone. If we don't educate the masses, then $omeone else will.
It's only Windows users that really don't seem to fixate on operating systems.
Really it sometimes looks as though Windows users are highly fixated on operating systems... With attitudes like won't use it if it isn't Windows, etc.
Yes, 'none of the above' is a positive choice that should not be confused with apathy.
:)
But 'not interested'????
How exactly do you define apathy?
Why doesn't the gene pool have a life guard?
He could have said something like "a poll on favorite fast food place outside of a mcdonald's".
The Holocaust denial crowd love constant comparisons to Adolph Hitler or to fascism or the KKK. It is like throwing a hot piece of metal into a bucket of cool water. The cool water (metaphor:= the conversation) gets heated up. What the racists like is the equal and opposite effect, that the hot metal cools down (the subject becomes less emotionally shocking).
Holocaust deniers have an easy job when everyone and everything is compared to racists or Nazis in an argument. They don't care who wins the argument-- what matters is that people get used to using evil as an argument tactic, not a morally atrocious ideology.
From there, it is only a short jump to making jokes about nazis, to making jokes about the holocaust, etc. It would take years, but pulling the shock, revulsion and horror out of the holocaust, making it just another episode in history, is the first step to having another.
The same should go for the massacres in Rwanda, Stalin's purges, Communist China's Cultural Revolution, the massacres in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge, what happened to native americans in this country, or any of the other notorious episodes in history. The secret to making these monstrous acts possible isn't making people angry-- they usually are anyway. It is removing their conscience, their sense of outrage. Humor and satire can dispel fanaticism, but it can also dispel our horror and moral certainty when we see something terrible happening. Many of these atrocities were made possible by indifference.
(I turned off my +1 since this is off topic, but I'm glad it came up.)
I bow to your superior knowledge of psychology mumbo-jumbo ;-)
The O/S poll is gone, but the will-you-buy-ME poll that had been running 92% NO is suddenly 50/50... Yet More Stuffing?
Didn't even know about the poll over here. But sounds like your typical Hank the Angry Drunken Dwarf stunt. :-)
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Do I look like I speak for my employer?
No, it was an internet poll. With ESPN/ABC "Enhanced TV". Surprised they haven't patented *that*.
Admit nothing, deny everything and make counter-accusations.
Still, occurances like this make you question the validity of Slashdot poll results, no matter how significant or important the question.
Feh. I've questioned the validity of Slashdot polls for as long as I've been here.
Absimiliard
I probably had Robert C. Prince, III stuck in my head. He was the man behind the music and sound effects of DOOM.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
This country (that would be the US) is really going over the top nowadays with polls. I don't know if the upcoming elections has anything to do with it or not (probably not). Some of the latest abuses are the real-time online polls during sporting events. I used to think that polls such as "Who do you think will win the Super Bowl?" were stupid enough. My response was always, "Let's wait until January and find out." But the real-time ones are even worse. Saw one the other night during a football game where a questionable call was challenged and reviewed on instant replay. During the review (while the play was being shown from every conceivable angle except Cup-cam (tm)) the viewers were encouraged to vote whether they thought the play would stand. As if that has any meaning at all. Hey everybody, if we just wait around for a couple of minutes we'll *know* the answer - we won't have to guess. It's not as if the officials said, "Well, we think the play should stand, but let's consult the ESPN online poll before we make a final ruling." It worries me that anybody would even bother to respond to a poll like that. (The kicker is that the play was overturned even though one of the replays clearly showed that the on-field official made the correct call. The poll was about 50/50, if you're curious.)
Admit nothing, deny everything and make counter-accusations.
Folks, You all should know by know by now that NO online poll is acurate at all! They are a waste of time. No matter what poll that is put out there on these "corporate" run websites their results will be about as acurate as a sniper rifle with a 90 degree bend in the barrell. I would say don't even waste your time with them. The ignorant PHB's that would actually base business decisions on these things deserve the nasty fallout they would incur. Let the "legend in their own mind" windows crowd believe what ever the hell they want. We all know the truth, and the truth is a virus! It spreads.... The only polls worth any time are the /. polls -- their entertaining!
.03 worth (Inflation you know)
Just my
The Truth is a Virus!!!
Ok, you tell me how the earlier post was making a false argument. Just because something related to Nazis is mentioned, doesn't necessarily invalidate the argument as Godwin's Law would claim. Godwin's Law is arbitrary. You should have the intelligence to take it in context and not read anything more into it. If it was an statement meant to inflame and that does not actually support the poster's argument, then point that out as well. Let's not resort to childish games of ignoring people simply because they say certain words. Consider the context and intent.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
even though they are called *MS*NBC, they haven't been that bad with journalism
Considering they fired at least two journalists before they found one who wrote articles about the MS trial they could approve, I don't think I'd consider them 100% neutral.
Hey, what program do you use to compile it?
Seems to me that Godwin's Law gets used as a form of censorship. Just because Nazis, the Holocaust, etc., generate a lot of emotion in people does not make them invalid examples in a discussion. They can be used to inflame rather than to support an argument, but it is that tactic that invalidates the argument, not the simple use of the words. Godwin's is just arbitrarily condemning any mention of anything relating to Nazis or the Holocaust. Seems like a dream come true for the Holocaust denial crowd. Regardless of whether other or even better examples or analogies can be presented, willfully ignoring a dark chapter of human existance is not a good way to deal with it. The Holocaust happened. It's a real event. Nazis are real people. None of this is hypothetical or arbitrary. Refusing to continue a discussion simply because something that is related to these people and events is mentioned is ignorant. Take it in context. He wasn't trying to stir up emotion. That much seems obvious. Why then should the discussion be ended? The example he offered was a good one. Deal with it.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
this coming from the same people who , when asked about a particular petition to impeach billy c, replied 'oh, we dont take anything seriously from those internet people'
the media is corrupt. its in bed with big biz and the govt. bill clinton goes golfing with the owners of cnn. whats that tell you
I lost my concept of community when my community lost all concept of me.
Here's the deal:
LinuxToday got wind of an e-mail that went out to WinME beta testers that encouraged them to rig a poll at ZDnet regarding whether people would buy WinME. Soon after, LT found out about another poll. This was the MSNBC favourite OS poll. They encouraged LT readers to go vote in it, noting it wasn't as easily rigged as the ZDnet poll. A couple LT readers figured out the poll could be rigged by deleting a cookie MSNBC placed on a voting machine and checking for on future votes. It's likely the Linux number of 28% came from a flood of LinuxToday readers, a few using the cookie-delete trick, though I'd like to hope most didn't stoop that low. It should be noted that LT itself didn't promote poll-rigging in its own posts. At one point, Linux had more votes than WinNT/2K.
Early Sunday morning is when the apparently faked votes started flooding in. One report from a reader claimed that for a while, all votes were going into NT/2K, then switched to adding votes for every OS but Linux - the percentages for Mac, BeOS, and Win9x/ME didn't significantly change like the NT and Linux counts.
It looks like the whole thing is a popularity pissing contest. LT is still encouraging their readers to vote (fairly) in polls that have appeared in the last few days, and LT released an open letter to MSNBC regarding the sudden, suspicious increase in NT/2K votes.
Of course, if MSNBC were really carefully rigging things, they also would have rigged the other poll on the same page as the OS popularity poll - the one that showed only 8% of voters were going to buy WinME, opposed to 92% saying ixnay:)
-------------
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
But, believe it or not, there really are Windows zealots out there. They post a call to action on a slashdot counterpart and bang! you've got a surprising change in results.
It's like the man said: Nothing breeds zealotry like zealotry.
Completely usless information to be found here: www.ridiculopathy.com
when will CraftMind use these stats?
Ret. add. is really fake....
Everything should be taken with a grain of salt. Most poll systems have no safety checks. Votes could come from by anyone anywhere. I do not see that this is should be an issue, problem or concern. This is the internet we should take everything with a grain of salt.
I wouldn't be surprised if that came from 63,250 corporate IP addresses with signed up with the Microsoft Select plan.
----
Web inquiry: Windows quite far in front
In the inquiry after the best operating system on MSNBC the page turned in wondrous way. If morning was appropriate still for Linux, like reported , with 28% of 18.500 voices in guidance on Friday, then the voice proportion of the free operating system sank until Sunday evening on 3% of 384.848 voices.
The inquiry took a strange process: Thus Linux achieved a high on Saturday mornings against 3 o'clock with 39% - from that up to then delivered 29,100 voices approximately 11,350 was allotted to the free operating system. In the following 20 hours 126,500 voices were then added, from which however 800 (according to 0.6%) was surprisingly only allotted to Linux. Thus the being correct proportion doubled itself both from Windows 95/98/ME and NT/2000. now moves with some the suspicion , there must have been manipulated. Trust no statistics, which you did not falsify... ( odi / c't)
Got Rhinos?
Zealots all around it seems.
On September 12 (the second day the poll was going) BeOS was leading with a whopping 45%. I guess as soon as an "alternative" OS was taking the lead, someone decided it was bot-time.
This is the future of democracy: online ballot stuffing bots!
---
"Okay, who taught the cat how to type ctrl alt delete?"
It will compile with VC, though any other Windows compiler will work.. The code I posted has got mangled either automagically by the message board, or auto-magically assisted by a moderator :)
If anyone requires the unmangled code, mail me..
m00
> What better way to creat bad publicity for > MS and MSNBC than by making it look like they > doctored their own poll? Now you know that it doesn't really look like that.. > Just by voting for windows repeatedly, some > linux fan could easily generate all kinds of > bad press like this. And with Linux Today > certainly watching at this point, its bound > to rally MS hatred. No it's not.. MSNBC will come up smelling of roses when they realise they can have a killer article on how online voting is just not practical. Everyone bar the dimmest of the dims knows that MS had nothing to do with this. > I wish I'd though of such a devious political > maneuver myself. Now that's asking a bit much isn't it? How about a poll to decide :)
m00
Why be surprise? Anything relating to Bill Gates or his products is always going to be underhanded. It's up to the intelligent computer users(linux users) to know the truth. Don't rely on MircoZombies. They follow Bill.
It does so to, speak but by using cookies.. All it takes is to respond with a unique GUID for the cookie and you're away :)
They could (and I hope they get the point and do this) modify it to only allow one vote per IP (but this has it's own implications such as for NAT users) which would make it a little harder. Doing it upon IP would at least eliminate the script kiddies from rigging such polls. A deeper level of knowledge would be required, but the implication of giving out the source for such a IP rigged votebot would be a little more serious :(
Hopefully the point was made. MSNBC (and all other poll hosts) should do something to make this kind of rigging impossible. It is possible but not through shoddily writter JavaScript and ASP code.
When I was told that the MSNBC poll was hard to rig, I believed it. 45 seconds later I had all the information needed. They should employ someone whop can write a proper and secure poll program.
And OT in this thread but I have to mention it.
There's a lot of fuss being made about the fact that it appeared at one point that the Linux votes dropped in real numbers. This did not happen. Embedded within the vote JScript there are tags that reveal the *exact* number of votes cast for each item. The person who attempted to create a backlash by stating that Linux votes dropped at some point is baseing his assumption upon the fact that the percentages rounded down!
There was no way to gain access and manipulate the MSNBC poll databases holding the results. I know, I tried. Could view, but couldn't modify :(
m00
Ever heard of proxy servers and Junkbuster.
Just saying it like it are.
If this is usenet, where's my kiddie porn?
On the Skywalker Ranch where the Storm Trooper Posse says:
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
After 1945 don't care a whit more than about A
Zeroeth %. They'd rather watch the Wizard of OZ
In their homes, or read the swimsuit issue of SI.
-Pete
Or if they had a clue ( I know this is a BIG stretch ) they could install Perl on Winblows and use a perl script with WinLynx .. that would work. (until the box reboots - in say 10 minutes )..
UPS Sucks
Considering that the BeNews slashbox directly to the left of this news article links to an article telling BeOS advocates about this very poll, with a line saying 'You know what to do', I fail to see why people are upset about Windows users doing pretty much the same thing.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
Sorry -- I didn't mean I was referring specifically to your post, just that Godwin's Law is often wielded as if it were some variant on argument by analogy.
Lee Kai Wen -- Taiwan, ROC
My question is how often does something like this happen...
AverageJoe disillusioned Win98 user who sees a poll with options other than windows on it. He's mad because he rebooted 5 times in the last hour. He clicks on anything other than a MS product, and then clicks "submit". Now that's sending a strong message to Bill!
How often do MCSE's blame or berate windows to their clients when something breaks? I always tell my customers who use windows "That blue screen is a feature, nothing I can do."
My 2 cents...
> Considering they fired at least two journalists before they found one who wrote articles about the MS trial they could approve, I don't think I'd consider them 100% neutral.
I'd certainly like to have more information on that episode.
--
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
No. Godwin's law only applies when someone brings in the Nazis in
the context of a different subject. The `law' doesn't apply to
serious discussions *about* fascism, Hitler or the Holocaust. I don't
believe there is any danger of these subjects being ignored in the
near future.
Did you read the law there genius? You might wanna try again
Banned from moderation 01-27-2002. Fuck you too
reminds me of my pet favorite: the accusation of "McCarthyism" is itself a form of McCarthyism, an attempt to smear simply by labelling.
I'd phrase the Godwin's law point as: Nazism is to morality as the "universal set" is to boolean algebra. (see: I just used Nazism in a comparison, but Godwin's law should not apply). You can't conduct a "discussion" in boolean algebra without a universal set. Invoking comparison to the Nazis is often an attempt to get agreement, not enflame passions. "You must agree with me that Nazis loved their own children, but were capable of horrific acts against other people's children, therefore can't you see..."
an AC writes "According to a German news report, MSNBC has produced a poll for the most popular operating system. This time, Linux had 86% (126.500) of the vote, and miraculously Windows had only 14% by sunday evening (European time). It appears that 18.500 votes came in on Sunday - all of them for Windows." Finally, a Windows Biased Poll that shows the true popularity of Linux!
--
In Soviet Russia, Trojan exploits YOU!
Fair enough, but there was nothing particularly appropriate about a Mein Kampf analogy there. There were dozens of simple examples that might have been used instead of the Nazi overkill.
Either way, I wasn't trying to invalidate FascDot's insightful comment -- I was going for funny, and that is how it has thankfully been moderated.
wouldn't they want linux to get votes?? that shows that there's a fair market! see, windows has competition! :)
melissa.
My post is probably redundant, I didn't read the others to see who said what.
Accusing MSNBC of rigging the poll is useless. It is impossible to make a useful poll online without some kind of identity management and information about the pollees. Furthermore, even if it is fixed, there's no way to tell if it's fixed by MSNBC or someone trying to make them look bad.
Both the poll and the accusations are useless.
I ran a public voting script similar to this one yesterday. I was available on a sub-sub-sub directory of my server. It was open for 10 minutes, and in that time I voted 52 times, and my friends voted a total of 218 times as well. Windows scored 0 votes during this poll, thus proving that it has no market share.
-This sig intentionally left blank
They're not completely meaningless. For instance, in this poll we have learned that someone likes Windows enough to learn how to write a script so that they can boost its image. Take it for what you paid for it...
Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
Polls are just for fun and shouldn't be the basis for purchasing an operating system.
------
James Hromadka
"The objective of securing the safety of Americans from crime and terror has been achieved." -- John Ashcroft
To be read in a breathless, fawning, pansy voice by some tiny John Leguizamo look-alike poof:
"Windows CE is simply the best doan'tcha 'no...
I simply love my hand-holder since he started crashing over at my place. Well, that's what the letters PDA stand for now... Penicious Data Anihilator.
Oh its about Windows Me?!?
#u@k that! Last time that happened, it took simply months until the cast came off.
Okay, I landed badly, but they spun me while they were heaving me and my leg hit the sash.
I can't dance the Lambada anymore. "
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Linux is the most popular OS in my house, so that poll is just a bunch of numbers to me. They won't change my vote just because more people are interested in the "other" candidate this fall either. I have never gotten any worthwile news from MSNBC, anyway. I have gotten linked to them for a couple of things, but I generally find them to be slanted one way or the other too much. I like my news unfiltered, and MSNBC has never been good for that.
I'm on a chair.
So some online poll on some website is showing fluctuations. Where one option was leading earlier, another one is now. What am I missing? Why in the world is this news?
When was the last time anyone actually trusted or paid any attention to an online poll, anyway? If you do, I have a bridge in New York I'd like to sell you.
And the insinuation that MSNBC rigged the poll is preposterous at best. Besides the point that it's hardly worth the effort or risk for them to do it, the far more likely possibilities are that 1) someone with a script skewed the numbers or 2)that the initial spike was because of Linux Today asking its readers to vote on that poll or 3) The initial spike was because someone with a script pumped up the Linux numbers and MSNBC took those votes away or 4) Horror of horrors, more people actually Use NT/2000!!
So is this news worthy of posting on Slashdot because it involves Microsoft or because it involves Linux or because it slings some mud at Microsoft based on some pretend charges, hoping some of it will stick?
Mmmm.. Donuts
No. They're inherently biased, even if there are steps in place to keep the same people from submitting multiple votes.
The statisticians call it a "self-selecting sample", so that means you end up with people who feel strongly enough (positively or negatively) to participate.
James
This was not the only problem. A Linux/Netscape browser could not even get to the page to vote. If you clicked on "Complete Story" nothing would happen. The only was I was able to vote for Linux was to access it from an IE browser. In other words, the poll prevented non-IE users from participating. This fact is a lot worse than ballot stuffing because the latter could be blamed on users.
Compared to Slashdot's polls, at least MSNBC is being subtle about the way they cheat...
Well, other than David McReynolds, you would see Pat and Ralph in most political polls.
Most mainstream political polls do track candidates that have a statistically trackable percentage of voters (usually 1 percent or so). They might ask the question a couple of different ways, like "In a two way race, who would you choose, Dubya or The Stiff?" Another question might be "Who are you likely to vote for if the election were held today?"
In any case, polling outfits like Gallup go through painstaking efforts to be as accurate as possible, because their reps are on the line.
Polls about OS use, on the other hand, are probably not conducted with the same attention to detail.
As with any statistics, be aware that they are just that. Numbers that try to apply the opinions of a small group of people (the sample), to the entire population.
For instance, I saw a poll on Vote.com about the NY Senate race debate. 91% (when I last looked) said Rick Lazio won the debate. Politcal ideology aside, do you think that poll was accurate?
Furthermore, does the result of this poll accurately reflect what might happen in the actual election? Absolutely not. Unless the poll was restricted to people likely to vote in the election, it is pretty much meaningless. In other words, who cares if a bunch of militia members from Montana think Rick Lazio won the debate?
This whole subject could have it's own web site, so the above is just an excerpt of why Internet polls are useless.
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
This is nothing new. All web polls are inherently invalid because of numerous faults in sampling method.
I remember during Apple's really dark times being on the Evangelista email list. My god did we slant some web polls. I would say at least weekly, a post about some webpoll somewhere would pop up, and "the power of mac way" would give them pollsters some religion.
I don't really have any bad feelings about doing this. We were in a death match over mindshare, and I'll be damned if I was going to sit by while nobody did anything...letting MS win by default. We were the only major group fighting for alternative CONSUMER OS's at the time, and all's fair in love and war.
Now I truly dig the free software movement, because now I can fight tech opression AND help shape what I'm fighting for.
In this instance, the webpoll is a bit moot. It's no longer which OS you use, it's what you do with it that makes a difference. The windows sheep can vote in polls all they want. I'm running the same net/web app they are, only my VM is more stable.
"Let him go, Ralph. He knows what he's doing." --Otto Mann (simpsons)
Could this be the result of this new "Auto-Vote AcTive X control" that comes standard with windows ME? I mean I trust internet explorer with my passwords and all other info I fill out on html forms so why not scan the poll for the most plousible option for me to choose and send my vote in before the poll is over?
I grasped the point just fine. I simply disagree with you over the poster's intent. I don't believe it was intended to invoke emotion or inflame an argument. He was simply using a widely known work, that is lauded by a group known to be quite fanatical and predjudice in their beliefs to illustrate a point. It was effective in getting that point across I think. If some people get sidetracked by the use of a nazi-related word, then they're not really understanding what the poster is saying (at least in this case). That is why I thought it innappropriate to invoke Godwin's Law in that case.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Ouch. I suck. :-)
who the hell is ken tompson?
Personally, I think that the mouse driver on Win2K hung while clicking on the submit button, and each submission from a windows box actually registered a hundred or so clicks.
It happens all the time.
Philip
Do not underestimate the value of print statements for debugging.
I will vote for:
umm...where's Ralph Nader? Where's Pat Buchanan? Where's David McReynolds?
Agreed. I noticed something even scarier just because it's almost beneath notice.
I often stop at 7-11 on the way to work for coffee. They recently replaced their normal 7-11 coffee cups with special election cups. You can only get the
"I'm voting for Bush" or
"I'm voting for Gore" models.
It seems to illustrate a belief I have that there are few if any substantial differences between the two major parties. For a huge corporation like 7-11, either major party candidate will do fine for them.
---CONFLICT!!---
Here in Georgia, Browne's polling at 5%, Buchanan is at 3% (sigh), and Nadar is off the map...yet no one ever mentions Browne. Strange, that is. At least, according to the LP.
-David T. C.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
Redundant? Whats redundant?
And whats a lameness filter?
I guess a better translation would be:
:^)
"Trust no statistic which you haven't faked yourself".
This is indeed a common German phrase.
Shared eathernet is insecure. So is shared token ring. Sharing wires, unless you have some kind of encryption in place, is automatically insecure. But I really think you should get these people fired. Ethernet and token ring are just protocals. And ethernet's 'talk unless someone else is talking' does considerably better then token ring's 'pass around the conch shell'. Neither one of them has any security precautions at all.
-David T. C.
If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
What better way to creat bad publicity for MS and MSNBC than by making it look like they doctored their own poll?
Just by voting for windows repeatedly, some linux fan could easily generate all kinds of bad press like this. And with Linux Today certainly watching at this point, its bound to rally MS hatred.
I wish I'd though of such a devious political maneuver myself.
"It's because they're stupid. That's why everybody does everything."- Homer Jay Simpson
Note that Godwin's Law is merely a statement of probability. It is the corallary Usenet tradition, not Godwin's Law itself, which stipulates that the party invoking Hitler forfeits the debate.
To invoke Godwin's Law to end a discussion is a misapplication of the principle. It is the Usenet tradition which must be invoked, which leads to the question of whether Usenet tradition applies outside Usenet. Personally I'd argue that while Godwin's Law is universal in scope, Usenet tradition is not.
Lee Kai Wen -- Taiwan, ROC
Im curious why Slashdot is posting this as well. Online polls (especially OS related ones) have to be the WORST way to proove anything. I myself have read alot of posts on Mac forums (Lets vote on every Mac vs. Win poll in existance) posting URLS to polls where Windows was dominating, the next day MacOS is in the lead. Stupid polls like "Which is a better gaming platform" and the Mac ends up winning even tho it had an ATI 128 (vs a GeForce SDR in the PC).
:)
Ditto for Linux users. It's only Windows users that really don't seem to fixate on operating systems. The people that vote in these polls are the ones that are the underdogs. For a long while, the "best operating system" poll at deja.com was like this:
1. OS/2
2. BeOS
3. Amiga OS
4. Free BSD
5. Linux
6. MacOS
7. Windows
Kind of in order by lack of marketshare
Lets all get out our trinity tools, and
aim them at m$nbc.com and watch their
little winshit servers go down seconds later.
-Legion
Be that as it may, trying to invoke Godwin's Law to end an argument is a misapplication of the principle. Godwin's Law is merely a statement of probability, not an arbiter of disputes. It is the corollary Usenet tradition, not the Law itself, which declares that any invocation of Hitler or Nazis ends the discussion.
Similarly, attempting to equate Godwin's Law with a point of logic is a non sequiter. Again, the Law is merely a statement of probability, not a rule of logic.
Godwin's Law, I would argue, is universal. Wheter Usenet tradition is applicable outside Usenet is open for debate.
Lee Kai Wen
A smart engineer uses the best tool for the job. If I want a general-purpose programming workstation, I use Linux. If I'm building a firewall, I use OpenBSD. If I want a gaming box, I use Win9x. If I'm building a mission-critical database server, I'm going to use Solaris or AIX. Each tool has it's place and an appropriate use.
Pointless bickering of the "My OS is better than your disro" or "My Linux distro rocks; your distro sucks" variety wastes everyone's time. It reminds me of pointless high school arguments over cars or bands.
Opinion polls are worthless. Does an engineer base his decision on what OS to use for a project on what Joe Sixpack thinks is "best"? If opinion polls really mattered, professional wrestling would be an Olympic event (and probably our national sport).
"The axiom 'An honest man has nothing to fear from the police'
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
Only those people who care enough to answer respond
Yep, this is called a self-selecting population, and it's really bad for your statistics. This becomes worse in things like political polls where people are self-selecting. You end up getting situations where vocal minorities who really do care about an issue can completely outweigh moderate or even apathetic majorities.
Other problems with online polls is that since it's the internet, there isn't always a reputation backing the poll. The US Census beareau and things like the wall street journal try to do very accurate polls because their ass is on the line in any number of different ways. These polls don't make or break anybody, so they don't have as much effort put into them to be fair. Mix that in with the editorial bias that MSNBC may or may not have, and the results are going to be suspect. (I.e. Amoco reveals a new study saying that 99% of americans prefer gasoline cars to the newer electric cars, etc)
Usually real polls also have a way of "writing in". that way if an answer that is statistically significant keeps getting given by the people taking the poll, you can either redo it or adjust your options. In online polls, you can't write in, and you can't make it known that you would have written in. So you could get polls like this:
Best Operating System:
- Windows 98
- Windows 2000
- Windows NT
- Windows ME
that treat the domain of a person's choice as a forgone conclusion. Ever seen political polls on the net:
I will vote for:
- George Dubya Bush
- Al "The Stiff" Gore
umm...where's Ralph Nader? Where's Pat Buchanan? Where's David McReynolds?
-- Truth goes out the door when rumor comes innuendo. -- Groucho Marx
True, and also remember that polls are only as good as:
:^)
1.) What questions are asked
2.) How they are asked
I recently helped conduct a survey for a book store. It included information such as, say, rating a person's favorite radio station and what newsapers they read.
The problem? The survey left out *frequency.* The poll was designed to help us determine what media we wanted to advertise on, and the people responsible for putting together the survey blew it.
That being said, I really don't think that MSNBC would willingly throw the results toward Windows...they've been known to run stories that paint a fairly unflattering picture of Microsoft. Maybe they just do this once in a while to try to maintain an illusion of credibility, but it's a point in their favor.
Stating on Slashdot that I like cheese since 1997.
Whether you are aware of it or not, there are new users on the Internet everyday, whom may not know that Web polls are useless and that M$ spreads FUD. Give it a rest.
My question to you however is, if you don't give a shit, why are you responding to this?
I gave up thinking of a cool sig
Most Microsoft users aren't fanatical about their OS. I know that some are (I work with one), but for the most part people run Windows because that's what came with their systems and they don't know any better.
And Microsoft isn't THAT stupid. I doubt anyone in MS really thinks, "hey, if we rig an MSNBC poll to say Windows is the best, imagine all the positive publicity that will generate!"
Here's my theory, take it for what it's worth: A Linux fan did this. This must have been satisfying to the perpetrator for many reasons. First of all, it's destroying a poll on a Microsoft site, which is entertaining in itself. But the main entertainment comes from the strategy he used.
This guy was smart. If he ran a script to stuff the ballot with Linux votes, that doesn't accomplish anything. People who saw it would chalk it up to "some immature Linux user is playing games." But he saw the best move and decided to stuff the ballot in Microsoft's favor. Now Microsoft looks like they got caught, they get accused, and now, hey, look, a /. story! That part of it was probably the ultimate high for the spammer.
Or maybe I'm just paranoid.
(Disclaimer: I'm not saying that Linux users are immature. I'm saying that PEOPLE are immature. In a userbase a large as Linux's, certainly there are people who would do something like this. Please don't take it as a flame against you personally.)
I don't think that *MS* stands for Microsoft.
I would be a little ashamed, as a /.er and Linux user, if this turned out to be true, especially after seeing such this type of headlines on Slashdot.
Best regards,
January
[1] There ain't no such thing as a "humble" opinion.
[2] In fact, almost anything useful is.[3]
[3] And in other breaking news Mr. Edison invented the lightbulb, this contributing greatly to the Usenet humor[4]
[4] But I digress...
well, you think wrong... cause that's exactly what it stands for.
just read any of their stories about microsoft, and they let you know (to let the reader know about the conflict-of-interest thingy).
Posted by Hemos on Monday September 18, @1:48PM
from the i-call-it-a-sporkle dept.
CharChar writes "According to MSNBC news, Slashdot has produced a poll for the name of that plastic spoon/fork combination you get at cheesy restaurants. This time, the poll was rigged rather blatantly: Friday morning, 'spork' had 28% (2,213) of the vote, but miraculously dropped to 3% by Sunday evening. It appears that 70,102 votes came in on Sunday - all of them for 'foon'." Now, not knowing people at Slashdot or anything like that, I would offer the possibly that someone ran a script against it. Still, occurances like this make you question the validity of Slashdot poll results, no matter how significant or important the question.
Does /. post server logs anywhere?
/. from. There are a lot of free OS people posting around, but is this a vocal minority these days, or is this still representative of the audience? Come on /., which is the most popular OS amongst your readers?
It would be interesting to see what OS'es people have been visiting
is becoming about as important as honesty in politics.
Either way, it's big money that's doing the talking.
Yes, your right. You win a *cookie*
p
370-427364617
ebay.com/
4
1536751404
30115857
559452448
22257637
*
> The real problem is that it's those vocal minorities who will go out and vote, while the apathetic majority stays home on the couch. That's why the minority has such power and can get such ludicrous legislation passed. Because nobody else gives a damn enough to make their feelings known to the politicians and to go out and vote to back it up.
What do you want? A TV in the voting booth? I'd be happy if everyone else stayed home on election day. Apathetic people make my vote more important.
Ryan
Bill Gates must have "Strong Arms", if you get my drift :o)
"For instance, I saw a poll on Vote.com about the NY Senate race debate. 91% (when I last looked) said Rick Lazio won the debate. Politcal ideology aside, do you think that poll was accurate?"
Actually I do believe that... he whipped her little lipo-sucked ass. (all partisanship aside, of course)
Do you even know anything about perl? -- AC Replying to Tom Christiansen post.
Poll rigging, eh? So the music polls last July really did reflected The Who. Wow, hey cool. See mom, I told you I was right, Windows (tm), is the best.
When I visited and voted to see who was on top, NT/2000 came up... I dunno... I think this is just a fluke... I doubt they themselves rigged it. What would their motive be?
I personally think either there are a lot more windows fans out there that read thegeek.org or MSNBC, or something (er... yeah... ummm that's it)... or Perhaps just someone running a script that thought it'd be a good gag.
----
The comment was incredibly appropriate.
If you try to determine what percentage of people like science fiction by polling outside of a Star Wars premiere, you'll get biased results.
If you poll for opinions about black equality outside a KKK rally, you'll get biased results.
Those are very obvious, the completely biased results make this easy for everyone to understand.
Now, if you said "It's like polling about BeOS outside of a Amiga user's group" that wouldn't mean anything to most people, though hardcore Amiga users are probably fairly biased towards various other OSes, both for and against...
The difference is that this isn't as obvious to outsiders. Not everyone know's what an Amiga user would feel about BeOS or other OSes. Everyone knows that Star Wars fans are fanatical (esp the ones who go to crowded opening-night movies), just like everyone knows that KKK members are fanatical.
Perhaps saying "Like asking a poll about best economic system at the end of Adam Smith's _Wealth of Nations_" would be just as accurate, but few people have heard of Adam Smith and _Wealth of Nations_ compared to the number who have heard of Adolph Hitler and _Mein Kampf_.
You may not like anything Nazi related, but it's perfectly valid to talk about.
Being that the talk was about polling and ways polls can be biased, discussing asking leading questions to fanatical people is on topic. Readers of _Mein Kampf_ are likely to be somewhat fanatical and thus it's a fair comparison.
Whoa, sombody is in to consipracy theories. It seems that you don't realize that online polls are extremely hackable. If you read over some of the BeOS NewLetters, they'll tell you a story of how they rigged the Yahoo OS poll. First, they scripted Netpositive to repeatedly go to the voting URL and vote for BeOS. Then, they realized that they could get votes just be reloadeding the after-vote page, so they did. Eventually, the had several Linux machines (because Lynx only runs on Linux) running Lynx and a script to repeatedly vote for BeOS. When the manager thought they should find a better use for their time, the resorted themselves to continually voting for N64. As I remember, it, due to their efforts (and the chain effect that it caused) N64 came away with 28% of the votes.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
MSNBC is a joint venture between *NBC* and *Microsoft*, and Microsoft owns the online biz of it. NBC gets to broadcast it on cable and MS gets to put it on their servers. Basically it stands for "Microsoft & National Broadcasting Corporation". Therefore, Microsloth exercizes their right to tamper with news and run a state-of-the-art batch file on it. BTW, MSNBC also standfor "Microsoft's National Bureaucracy Campaign". Either that or "Microsoft's Nonlegal Bullsh1t CCrack"
Definitions:
XML: Leading the way to make the web a print medium
"Errrr......... I've made a mistake" :) but then someone else decides to
;)
- -
D 7E96E;
// Errr, Let's be a bit lazy here ;)
e =Operatingsystemspoll&Q1=";
e pt-Language: en-us\nAccept-Encoding: gzip, deflate\nUser-Agent:
e =Operatingsystemspoll&Q1=";
e pt-Language: en-us\nAccept-Encoding: gzip, deflate\nUser-Agent:
e =Operatingsystemspoll&Q1=";
e pt-Language: en-us\nAccept-Encoding: gzip, deflate\nUser-Agent:
e =Operatingsystemspoll&Q1=";
e pt-Language: en-us\nAccept-Encoding: gzip, deflate\nUser-Agent:
// Should be suitably random enough ;)
b yname(lpServerName);
" );return;}
; return;}
d r_list);
S OCKADDR_IN));
o sesocket(Socket);return;}
s ocket(Socket);return;}
; }
// Write to stdout
It's a shame to see all these people claiming "they rigged the vote" children..
The truth..
Linux starts out with some rigging on a mammoth scale. BeOS responds with organising taking place on a BE sponsored mailing list of all places(BeUserTalk). So I decide to level the playing field
And then when the phantom Mac votee strikes back with an impressive votebot, retaliation was called for unfortunately it got rapidly out of hand at this point..
"It's only a gameshow,
It's only a gameshow"
m00
--
For future reference and for "how" here's the source to the Windows votebot.. Link with wsock32.lib and you can roger any vote you want
"You live by the sword, you die by the sword"
-----------------------------------------------
Not fantastic but it was cobbled together in a few minutes..
inline unsigned int RDTSC () {
int a;
_asm _emit 0fh
_asm _emit 031h
_asm mov a,eax;
return a;}
#include
#include
#include
#include
void GetHTTP(LPCSTR lpServerName,LPCSTR lpFileName);
#define PRINTERROR(s) fprintf(stderr,"\n%: %d\n",s,WSAGetLastError())
void main(int argc, char **argv)
{
WORD wVersionRequested = MAKEWORD(1,1);
WSADATA wsaData;
int nRet;
if(argc!=2){fprintf(stderr,"\nSyntax: GetHTTP ServerName\n");return;}
nRet=WSAStartup(wVersionRequested,&wsaData);
if(nRet){fprintf(stderr,"\nWSAStartup(): %d\n",nRet);WSACleanup();return;}
if(wsaData.wVersion!=wVersionRequested)
{fprintf(stderr,"\nWinSock version not supported\n");WSACleanup();return;}
_setmode(_fileno(stdout),_O_BINARY);
long g1=0xD1497877,g2=0x8BC411D4,g3=0xACC70080,g4=0x5F
char *fcmds[4][3];
fcmds[0][0]="/modules/livevote/vote.asp?t=2&LVnam
fcmds[0][1]="1& HTTP/1.0\nAccept: */*\nReferer:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/459053.asp?cp1=1\nAcc
Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT 5.0)\nHost: www.msnbc.com\nCookie: MC1=GUID=";
fcmds[0][2]="; P1=0\nConnection: close\n";
fcmds[1][0]="/modules/livevote/vote.asp?t=2&LVnam
fcmds[1][1]="2& HTTP/1.0\nAccept: */*\nReferer:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/459053.asp?cp1=1\nAcc
Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT 5.0)\nHost: www.msnbc.com\nCookie: MC1=GUID=";
fcmds[1][2]="; P1=0\nConnection: close\n";
fcmds[2][0]="/modules/livevote/vote.asp?t=2&LVnam
fcmds[2][1]="3& HTTP/1.0\nAccept: */*\nReferer:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/459053.asp?cp1=1\nAcc
Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT 5.0)\nHost: www.msnbc.com\nCookie: MC1=GUID=";
fcmds[2][2]="; P1=0\nConnection: close\n";
fcmds[3][0]="/modules/livevote/vote.asp?t=2&LVnam
fcmds[3][1]="5& HTTP/1.0\nAccept: */*\nReferer:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/459053.asp?cp1=1\nAcc
Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 5.01; Windows NT 5.0)\nHost: www.msnbc.com\nCookie: MC1=GUID=";
fcmds[3][2]="; P1=0\nConnection: close\n";
srand((unsigned)RDTSC());
g1+=rand();g2+=rand();g3+=rand();g4+=rand();
int votingorder[5]={0,1,1,2,3};
int which=0;int maxwhich=5;
for (int i=0;i=maxwhich)which=0;
}
WSACleanup();
}
void GetHTTP(LPCSTR lpServerName, LPCSTR lpFileName)
{
IN_ADDR iaHost;
LPHOSTENT lpHostEntry;
iaHost.s_addr=inet_addr(lpServerName);
if(iaHost.s_addr==INADDR_NONE)lpHostEntry=gethost
else lpHostEntry=gethostbyaddr((const char *)&iaHost,sizeof(struct in_addr),AF_INET);
if(lpHostEntry==NULL){PRINTERROR("gethostbyname()
SOCKET Socket;
Socket=socket(AF_INET, SOCK_STREAM,IPPROTO_TCP);
if(Socket==INVALID_SOCKET){PRINTERROR("socket()")
LPSERVENT lpServEnt;
SOCKADDR_IN saServer;
lpServEnt=getservbyname("http","tcp");
if(lpServEnt==NULL)saServer.sin_port=htons(80);
else saServer.sin_port=lpServEnt->s_port;
saServer.sin_family=AF_INET;
saServer.sin_addr=*((LPIN_ADDR)*lpHostEntry->h_ad
int nRet=connect(Socket,(LPSOCKADDR)&saServer,sizeof(
if(nRet==SOCKET_ERROR){PRINTERROR("connect()");cl
char szBuffer[1024];
sprintf(szBuffer, "GET %s\n", lpFileName);
printf("%s\n",szBuffer);
nRet=send(Socket,szBuffer,strlen(szBuffer),0);
if(nRet==SOCKET_ERROR){PRINTERROR("send()");close
while(1)
{
nRet=recv(Socket,szBuffer,sizeof(szBuffer),0);
if(nRet==SOCKET_ERROR){PRINTERROR("recv()");break
fprintf(stderr,"\nrecv() returned %d bytes",nRet);
if(nRet==0)break;
// fwrite(szBuffer, nRet, 1, stdout);
}
closesocket(Socket);
}
And, you were expecting what? Microsoft to have milk and cookies at LinuxExpo??
Get real, people. Anything on MSNBC about Microsoft reads like a press release.
Besides, these polls are absolutely worthless. It was routine on Mac sites and in Mac mailing lists that somebody would post about a Mac poll and encourage everybody to vote. Same think with Linux polls.
Polls are worthless (except Slashdot polls, they're completely accurate and unbiased)
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow. - Cmdr. Susan Ivanova
"Everyone I know..."
The problem with saying that is that you tend to hang out with people similar to you. "Everyone I know" is demonstrably meaningless unless you do truly have a cross-section of society in your circle of friends.
/Brian
I mean, who do they think they are? Verant? ;)
Unfortunately, all it does is reinforce a simple internet truism: Never believe online polls.
--sugarman--
I'd also like to point out that 28% for linux sounds high to me, even if that is the figure that I'd like to believe. It's equally likely that some fool ran a script to pump linux's numbers up, and that windows wasn't the only "cheater" in that poll.
Actually, when I voted in this poll, Linux was at 31%!
Then 32%, then 33%...
When I view the page in Netscape, sometimes the poll doesn't even come up. I have to hit reload several times before I see it, and even then I am told that my browser doesn't support cookies, and that is why I cannot vote. Seeing as how Netscape DOES support cookies, something seems really fishy here. Do they want us to boot to Windows just to vote for Linux? That's corporate logic for ya.
Let's talk turkey...
"Prejudice is wrong; you should hate everyone the same."
I work at MS (yeah, flame away, the job pays well and the working environment is wonderful - and yes, Linux is appreciated here by a lot of the dev staff I know).
When Berst had his Windows ME poll last week, a couple of guys down the hall setup an app to vote, and vote often. It appeared that ZDNet wasn't tracking IP addresses, so I think they left it running overnight.
It wasn't an organized conspiracy, just a couple of guys having a few laughs. No different (other than the intended vote) from you l337 h4x0rs who'd vote against MS.
The issue of whether said OS poll is rigged, is moot. Most polls are irrelevant from the outset as the sample of people who respond are not represantative of the entire population that the poll purports to measure. So the data we have from most polls is what percentage of respondees chose this or that option, that is all. This data cannot be extrapolated for the entire population and is therefore, less than useful.
However, do not underestimate the impact of polls. Whether they are representative or not, whether they are intended to be persuasive or not polls influence people's decisions as people more or less, consciously or not seek a measure of conformity.
Please, Linux freaks, if you're going to read and comment on "Linux sucks" stories, use Junkbuster. News sites have found out that they can make money by saying Linux sucks, and they're just going to say it more.
-- Real free software sites don't use GIFs.
Godwin's Law invoked. You lose.
Another way to (ab)use polls is to phrase the questions in a manipulative way. There, you don't care what the results are, you're using the 'scientific neutrality' of being a polltaker to lure people into believing what you say.
example:
Results: 100% hadn't heard that report, but 100% have now. Not that they know who reported it, or where...
Note, I totally and unfairly single out Ponds, which to my knowledge has never done a poll at all, let alone a 'push poll'. I pick ponds out because of that Ponds Institute they always talk about on TV-- kinda like the Halls of Medicine, or the Center for Bubbliciousness Studies (last my invention). But the point is that you can use a trick like a scientific survey to manipulate people without them ever hearing the results. And since these are usually targetted calls, your competitors never hear about the rumors you start until it is way too late.
The question, of course, is WHAT you are measuring. If you're attempting to measure the intensity that a group feels for a subject...it's an okay measure (it does NOT measure the SIZE of the group).
Look at the National Rifle Association. Those guys feel INTENSELY about the subject. (I'm not saying their right or wrong.) Now...look at the size of the organization...and compare that to the size of the population of the U.S.
What I find interesting is that implies that SOMEONE out there feels INTENSELY about Win2000. The next question is who?
MSNBC is probably regretting putting the poll up. In the past, MSNBC has produced fair reporting, (in the sense that it is not any worse than any other news service), and, as Taco points out, I doubt they intentionally did this themselves. I mean, what is the purpose of such a poll? They had nothing to gain by putting it up and now they have a lot of credibility to lose from this silly controversy.
---
GetSystemMetrics(SM_SECURE) == FALSE
The program did indeed run under Windows.
The program was structured like this:
1) autorun vote program
2) vote
3) reboot
Microsoft identified a bug in Windows 98 that caused the step #3 to execute slowly. You will find that the new operating system from Redmond, called "Windows Me Harder", fixes that bug causing step #3 to take much less time than before. Indeed, the ballot stuffing was much enhanced when run on the new operating system.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
Guess what? Not everyone likes or uses linux. Why is it whenever someone writes an article pointing out shortcomings and their dislikes you always assume microsoft has paid them off?
Only the State obtains its revenue by coercion. - Murray Rothbard
The news media rigs polls routinely to dupe the public into getting their candidate elected. (Hey! rigging ones own poll is not illegal, right?) And right now the media wants Gore. So they release poll after poll favoring Gore in the hopes that republican voters will say "Why bother? CNN said Gore's clinched it" and not vote. Everyone I've talked to favors Bush. Who gets included in these "polls" anyway? Do they stand outside the DNC polling people "at random"? I've never been asked to participate in a poll. Have you? Think about it. I think election polls ought to be banned just as news coverage is banned until voting closes in all US time zones. (This is done so people in PST still vote when EST, CST, MST polls close and the presidential winner is already decided.)
Well, it's not bad for statistics. It tells you that 99% of people who care enough to vote for XY use XY.
now, that's useful info :)
z.
disclaimer: I might be right.
Well that's a shame because it does :)
MicroSoftNBC is what it is - a joint venture...
Perhaps it was just somebody who wanted to cause a lot of uproar in the Linux-fanatic crowd.
I've heard that the poll is supposed to only allow one vote per unique IP address. Could somebody fake hundreds of thousands of IP addresses if they knew that the "fake IP" data streams would always be routed through their host?
http://linuxtoday.com/best.php3
here is the introduction to the poll:
http://linuxt oday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2000-09-15-012-21-N
my favorite choice was
If someone used a Linux box to run the script.....
Feed The Need[goatse.cx]
...who said, "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics." Too many people base too much of their opinion on statistics. As is obvious in this case, one side or another can flood the ballot, either by legitimately sending a large number of individuals to the poll or by having a few people run a script. As another poster mentioned, if "What's the best OS" was run on Slashdot, I doubt any Windows systems would top 5% of the vote. Numbers in this case are simply meaningless.
After one of the concerts I went to last spring in Huntsville, AL, I was notified about a poll that a Huntsville news station was running. The wording was something like the following:
This past weekend (band's name) played at (venue name). Approximately a dozen fans were arrested for drug charges... Should (band's name) be invited back?
That wording still isn't very accurate (I can't remember it verbatim), but the way the poll was worded made it clear which way they felt readers should vote. What would have happened if it had been worded like this?
This past weekend, (band's name) came to town, bringing thousands of loyal followers. The majority of the fans were well behaved, and spent thousands of dollars with local area merchants. Should (band's name) be invited back?
I think it's pretty obvious. But the poll really pissed me off because I could just picture the report on the 5:00 news about how 96% of poll takers don't think the band should be invited back because of the wording of the question.
-- "Complacency is a far more dangerous attitude than outrage." -Naomi Littlebear
Vote-Smart.org lists 157 presidential candidates. Granted, most of them wouldn't get more than a couple votes, but the fact that all options aren't presented kinda screws up any poll, doesn't it? I guess they could throw in an "other" option, but it would still make the poll biased towards those candidates that are actually listed.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
I remember receiving an email with a program attached. The program asked whether you forgave Bill Clinton for his misbehavior in office. If you tried to click on the 'NO' button, it moved, making it impossible to click. When you finally gave up and clicked on the 'YES' button it read something like, "Thank you for your honest support!"
Disclaimer: Bill Gates is not the Anti-Christ.
"Open code, in other words, can be a check on state power." -Lawrence Lessig
Let me guess there were all running Windows ME?
hmm... for fun I enjoy launching DDoS attacks against 127.87.42.5
I'm looking at this situation, and wondering how to react, I'm just so ... non-conflicted about it.
Big deal!
Do online polls measure anything terribly accurately in the first place? Given the characterization of how the totals changed over time, no doubt there was tomfoolery. But it's overwhelmingly likely that some dork ran a script on it, and not that Bill and Steve looked at it, got worried, and just issued a few SQL statements to make everything come out all right.
gosh. I don't normally complain about the stories that get posted, but this one's a little much.
"Oh, I hope he doesn't give us halyatchkies," said Heinrich.
Around here most people seem to be taking for
Bush. Since I live in a fundy infested area this
is not a true representation of America which
is more moderate.
A majority of normal people do support Al Gore.
Just the fact that obnoxious fundy Pat Robertson
is a strong supporter of Bush should be a wake up
call for any intelligent American.
Can't remember who said it, but it's so very true. . .
But, we do remember the old "grassroots" movement for Win16 against OS/2 on the OS/2 BBSs. I'm sorry but one must also remember that MS really isn't above this childish bullshit.
--
Care about electronic freedom? Consider donating to the EFF!
no that was ABCnews.com, his name is Fred Moody and he's an idiot
- "Hear that?! The percolations are imminent! Cease your ingress!"
Forget running a script to vote for NT/2000; everyone knows it will do at least fairly well and ignore it even if it wins... Make OS/2 the winning os and the effect will be felt throughout the IT world. I can just see the Win32 developers quitting their jobs to make Win16 programs for the best os in the world!! (writing them natively in os/2 would be just dumb)
====
"white bread, redneck, chicken-shit, motherfucker" -- Dr. Dre on "Straight Outta Compton"
You know this sounds kind of odd to me, because even though they are called *MS*NBC, they haven't been that bad with journalism. I remember seeing links on slashdot to articles on MSNBC about linux and so on, and they seem to have had some editorial independance in the past about what they write on relating to the tech field.
I'd also like to point out that 28% for linux sounds high to me, even if that is the figure that I'd like to believe. It's equally likely that some fool ran a script to pump linux's numbers up, and that windows wasn't the only "cheater" in that poll.
But what it really comes down to is the disclaimer I think I've seen on some net polling sites, which is something along the lines of "These numbers are very unscientific, and if you use them for anything important, you're insane".
All that said, who cares about some nonsense popularity contest? Linux doesn't need to be ELECTED prom king in order to kick ass.
-- Truth goes out the door when rumor comes innuendo. -- Groucho Marx
"Trust no statistic which you did not falsify."
Check out the original English version from LinuxToday.
The election right now is close. It is obvious
that Gore is for the middle class while bush
is for the very rich. Since he has no way to
get in with just them he kisses up to the fundies
who dream of installing their theocracy and
to the NRA by making the hunters believe that
they're going to lose their beloved gun when
all the policians want it to keep guns out of
the hands of morons and criminals because they
do have wifes who are concerned about the kids
getting killed all over.
If the women do show up for vote bush is fucked.
As for your comment on November, the way I look
at it, it is so close that it could go either way
but I do recall that I was told the exact same
thing at the last election. Guess who won!
You forgot your semicolon after the call to vote()
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
You end up getting situations where vocal minorities who really do care about an issue can completely outweigh moderate or even apathetic majorities.
The real problem is that it's those vocal minorities who will go out and vote, while the apathetic majority stays home on the couch. That's why the minority has such power and can get such ludicrous legislation passed. Because nobody else gives a damn enough to make their feelings known to the politicians and to go out and vote to back it up.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
Perhaps you are referring to Usenet tradition. Godwin's Law does not condemn anything. It is a mere statement of probability, which says that the longer a discussion goes on, the more likely it is that someone will make a comparison involving Hitler or Nazism. Godwin's Law doesn't condemn the comparison, it merely predicts it.
It is Usenet tradition which, through convention, has decided that such comparisons are condemnable. Thus, any attempt to invoke Godwin's Law to end a discussion is a misapplication of the Law. If you wish to end the discussion you should be appealing to Usenet tradition, not Godwin's Law.
Which begs the question of whether Usenet tradition is applicable outside Usenet. I would argue that while Godwin's Law is a universal principle, Usenet tradition is not.
Lee Kai Wen -- Taiwan, ROC
There's another poll at the article.
Q: Will you buy Windows ME?
A: 8% Yes
92% No
Out of like 13000 responses. Either another script or MS has their work cut out for them.
Since Babelfish does tend to make amusing translation errors, I asked a German co-worker. The last sentance does roughly translate as "Trust no statistic you did not fake yourself."
Even as far back as 6 months I've known them rigging polls in various ways. Not showing polls to Netscape users to get a Windows-tainted look for example. Independant press, my ass.
Things are a bit more insidious than that.
:)
Take a poll, choose your favorite color.
Ask 10 people. The choices are red and green.. hmmn well 7/10 people like red.
They will extrapolate from that that Green is the most hated color on the planet.
These polls barely have kernels;) of truth in them at all. They ask totally off the wall questions like "Do you like what clinton did in this bill, which they know most people will answer yes to, and then they convert that to a rating of the nations opinon of clinton."
So whenever I see a poll results it tranlates into something like a lie, benchmark, or something equally nefarious and gets discarded from my mind so that I form my own opinons
Jeremy
I remember reading a while back about a denial-of-service attack being propogated by way of a worm, much like Melissa, etc. This one was designed to sit quietly on each user's computer until a request from the internet activated them. Many experts believed the intention of these worms was to collaborate a massive DoS attack against some unfortunate victim, but since the actual code to be executed was not distributed with the worm, the exact purpose of this could not be known. It is possible that such a network could be used to flood a poll with bogus data, though I have to admit such a use seems like too much work for no more than it would accomplish.
--
For every post, there is an equal and opposite re-post.
NT means No Text
--
"A witty saying proves nothing" - Voltaire
How many votes will you cast in this poll?
Remember, statistics are like bikinis - suggestive and revealing, but you don't see everything.
--
... MSNBC really did rig the poll from the start, only they set it up so that Linux would come out ahead? That way Microsoft could point to the poll in court as yet another demonstration of their lack of total dominance in the OS market. Except Linux Today found out about it and told all their readers to go vote for Windows.
Nah... It was probably just caused by a process on the server that got caught in an infinite loop since the machine was an NT box and hadn't been rebooted in the last six hours, and kept voting for Windows.
Use AltaVista thingie http://babel.altavista.com/translate.dyn and it'll translate well enough to get the idea.
-- Ken Kinder ken@_nospam_kenkinder.com http://kenkinder.com/
The sample is non-random in several ways.
1) Only online people are included--less than 4% of the world is online. Probably moot in this particular example, though.
2) Only people who read the site see the poll. Imagine if they put a poll about "best skin color" at the end of "Mein Kampf"--do you think "black" would win?
3) Only those people who care enough to answer respond, even if they see the poll. A real poll goes out and asks people (on the street, on the phone, whatever) and requires an answer be marked down (even if it is "no response"). If an online poll marked a "no response" category for every webhit that didn't vote we'd see an alarming amount of apathy...
4) It is always possible to stuff the box--setting a cookie is useless since it can be deleted. Recording IP address is mostly useless since it doesn't work very well for dialup--not to mention privacy and spoofing issues.
In short, never pay any attention from an online poll. Magazine polls have most of the same problems, ignore them as well.
--
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
Linux MAPI Server!
http://www.openone.com/software/MailOne/
(Exchange Migration HOWTO coming soon)
There must be some sort of caveat?
Something along the lines of:
"This whole thing is wildly inaccurate. Rounding errors, ballot stuffers, dynamic IPs, firewalls. If you're using these numbers to do anything important- you're insane."
Sound familiar?
I'm a writer, a poet, a genius, I know it. I don't buy software, I grow it.