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Theory Tells How Egyptians Aligned Pyramids To True North
blackage sends us news about how the Egyptians may have aligned their pyramids. The craziest part seems to be that their accuracy was good enough in aligning with these stars that the pyramids can be dated to within five years! Nature has a nice description of the theory.
In fact one might as well suggest that Europeans in the middle-ages built huge cathedrals because the aliens made them do it. Except of course we'd laugh at anyone who suggested that. And so we should for those who suggest the same thing for older monuments including the pyramids. People build buildings because their leaders tell them to and the resources are there to do it.
Does that mean we know everything about the ancient world? Nope. But neither should we start invent a bunch of bullshit alien conspiracy stories from the barest of "facts".
So by your reasoning, (and I am neither an Egyptologist, nor an astronomer), she went back an abitrary amount of time, found two arbitrary stars which lined up, and that proves something?
Well, I don't agree that she went back an arbitrary amount of time, nor do I agree that she chose arbitrary stars. There's a small (astronomically speaking) time frame within which she worked, and there's only so many "eternal stars" from which to choose. She knew what she was looking for. (And I know you're about to say, that's the problem!)
I understand what you're saying about corroborative evidence, because it's such a dicey thing in science. It's usually far more useful to look for contrary evidence, since corroborative evidence (especially in something like archaeology) is usually rather easy to find, and often serves little purpose other than to give scientists a warm fuzzy feeling.
I think as corroborative evidence goes, though, Spence's work is pretty darned good.
You should also take note that the article you mentioned talks about the Sphinx, not necessarily the pyramids. I have heard of this controversial theory before-- and in fact, I find it quite convincing. However, they themselves acknowledge that the pyramids were built much later than the Sphinx. Also, I believe there is a great deal of archaeological evidence to link the pyramids with the ancient Egyptians we know so well (speaking loosely... again, IANAE).
Accountability on the heads of the powerful.
Power in the hands of the accountable.
What makes you think that these monuments were the influence of aliens? There are plenty of cultures worldwide which would have been prime for alien influence that never constructed pyramids. As far as mythologies about powerful beings from the sky or up above - this is universally human whereas pyramid building is quite unique and isolated - so there is little correlating evidence there.
Remember a few rules of theory making/evaluating:
1. the simplest explanation is the best. There is no need to involve complexe explanations when a simple one will do.
2. the fact that two things are unknown or mysterious is not grounds for assuming they are the same thing, or related. Mystery is by its nature undefined and devode of the kinds of features that make for logical associations. To say:
pyramid building == mystery
aliens == mystery
therefore: pyramid building == aliens.
is just a fault in reasoning.
3. There is a strong difference between something being possible and being probable. It is possible that the pyramids were farted out of giant psychedelic frogs - but it is not probable. A good theory has to be probable, not just possible.
There are a thousand forms of subversion, but few can equal the convenience and immediacy of a cream pie -Noel Godin
It strikes me as much more likely that a pre-Egypt civilization capable of building pyramids would be able to circumnavigate the globe, than that humans have existed for hundreds of millions of years but couldn't figure out how to cross an ocean until a thousand or so years ago. Even the earliest hominid fossils they've found only date back about 5 million years.
2.The big sphinx is WAY older than we thought. some geologist proved this.
While this isnt accepted in the main stream (yet) I find the evidence for this compelling. The facts go roughly like this:
So, the alternative model goes something like this:
Now, the pyramids may or may not be older than the currently accepted value, but the sphinx certainly is. I wouldnt be surprised if the pyramids are far older too.
The fact that Cheops, Chefren and Menkaure takes credit for them means nothing. Remember that it was not uncommon for a king to expropriate something someone else did as his. Also, it makes no sense that the biggest pyramid is claimed to be the oldest. If you were Pharaoh, wouldnt you want to build a bigger pyramid than your dad did? OTOH, if they merely claimed already existing structures, it makes perfect sense. First dibs...
/Dervak
Your theories are sound, your spelling is atrocious.
-- ghx-- ghx
You can call it Atlantis, even though it probably wasn't the civilization from Plato's stories, but those floods must have wiped it out just as surely. The survivors would have been so busy rebuilding locally that transcontinental travel was forgotten, except in stories and such:
Well, yes, but please bear in mind that The Word was the Gospel, which is of course, "Good News." I don't know about its speed, but as the Hitchhiker's Guide tells us, Bad News easily exceeds the speed of light.
Ned Flanders, I mock your value system. You also appear foolish to the eyes of others.
Hey! Let's all post our opinions on stuff we haven't even read! Maybe that's why slashdot is so interesting!
However, aligning anything with True North is easy. It has never been a riddle, whoever says so is just out to get some good press for a book or research grants.
I describe in my How to use a Compass-pages (in a section on how to navigate without a compass), how you can find true north easily, and to extremely high accuracy by only using the sun. They could well achieve the desired accuracy with the methods described there.
Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
Various sculptures from different cultures that lived about 4.000 to 5.000 years ago in SOUTH AMERICA portray bearded people and black people. How did they get there? South Americans are genetically unable to have such beard-growth and arn't black either
Probably from TV. They had television in South America 4-5 years ago, didn't they?
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"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
>it seems odd that we have a lot of trouble repeating their endeavours.
I don't know. I think if we wanted to get together HUNDREDS and HUNDREDS of people and spend DECADES doing it, I think we could come up with a pretty decent pyramid. OF course we may not get it right on the first try, but niether did the egyptians. There are lots of pyramids in Egypt than just the three everyone talks about.
The ancient vikings did pretty darn well traveling across the ocean without building monuments. So I guess that ancient vikings were more advanced than aliens because the vikings could navigate using the stars...
The pyramids in meso-America were built in completely different ways than the Egyptian ones. They have found that some of them were built around other older buildings. One was found to have, I believe, seven different layers within it.
http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
Yes, science has its own politics, and there are always less than honest people who are willing to fudge evidence - or accuse others of doing so - to increase their position.
However none of this is in anyway an indication that the Egyptians were influenced by aliens!!
There are a thousand forms of subversion, but few can equal the convenience and immediacy of a cream pie -Noel Godin
Well, if you just kind of held it in your mouth and didn't inhale, maybe you could be President of the US, and get hummers from chunky interns.
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"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Continent-drift started later then we think
continental drift has been happening for hundreds of millions of years, i think since the world was able to support life
> They do need to redraw the map each time they got here
What kind of bullshit is this? It's called latitude and longtitude. I know this might be hard for such a deluded mind as yourself, but by measuring angles to the sun and the stars, you can *** gasp *** figure out where you are without pyramids. Or, on a more advanced level, you keep a few satellites in space and set up a GPS system.
But don't take my word for it, just look at the space program. I don't see space shuttles requiring pyramids in order to land.
When periodically buffed, on a sunny day they would look shiney diamonds.
Actually, if the human race would spend even 5% of its output on the development of space, all of us would be taking vacations Mars by now.
"Why would optical recognition software be necessary? just because its a current technology doesn't mean it is at all necessary to interstellar or planetary navigation. People manage to go into space and have no trouble getting home without the need for such software, people managed to land on specific geographic areas of the moon without the need for it, we can land probes in precise regions of distant planets without any such need. Maybe the aliens are stupid? "
:)
Look at what we did with the mars probes... If we had a few pyramids there, probably we wouldn't have had a problem with them crashing on the surface!
Mario.
I don't know; I think you'd have a hard time getting a lot of Americans to take all of their vacation if they did have a lot. I get what is apparently very generous vacation by American standards (about 4 1/2 weeks per year which can be accumulated to a total of about 3 years' worth) and I have a hard time figuring out how to take advantage of it. Every time I think about taking a week off, I look at what my schedule would be like when I get back and reconsider, and I know that I'm not the only one in that position. There are plenty of people here who complain about maximum vacation accrual policies because they're forced to take time off or lose their vacation without compensation, and lots of people want the ability to cash in unused vacation time. The U.S. just doesn't have a big vacation culture, which is odd considering that our schools have significantly longer vacations that other countries.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
I don't know why they never bother including this in books about Egypt, but a version of the Egyptian language is still spoken today. It's called Coptic and is spoken in areas of Egypt and Ethiopia. It was only with the knowledge of Coptic that the Rosetta stone was deciphered. Champilion figured out the the heiroglyphs represented sounds but he could not have figured out what the sounds meant without have at least some clue of the spoken language they represented.
I always wondered why is was people kept trying to prove that it wasnt aliens that helped them. Come on folks; RA the sun god coming down in his golden chariot? Do you reallly think that?
"Not my manner of thinking but the manner of thinking of others has been the source of my unhappiness." - M
Maybe they are saying "someone has made contact with a civilization here, and recomend them for xxx."
Given that the Internet (as we all know) is also alien technology, that would explain why it's so full of porn
Any sufficiently well-organized community is indistinguishable from Government.
The guys who used the pyramids to pump water into the sky to terraform the planet and shut if off because of political infighting and ....."
[muffled thumps are heard as a bunch of Men in Black drag the speaker away into a waiting limozine]
Please ignore the above, we obviously had a fruit loop trying to take over the topic .....
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
could just commanalities(is that a word?) in human tought patterns and limitations of contruction materials/techniques be a factor in why those structures had a similar shape?
I believe sex is highly over rated... unless it involves me
Think it was `breakfast of champions` by kurt vonnegut who came up with the idea of a `semi-intelligent gas from Pluto` :)
"Is it stinky?" - Ren
"Just how you like it!" - Stimpy.
Yes there is, but are those smaller pyramides as accurately aligned? And are their dates consistent with the model?
From the Nature article the "...error in orientation produces a remarkably straight line... Two pyramids, Khafre and Ashure, do not fall near the straight line, but even this can be explained by assuming that the measurement was made when the two key stars were the other way up in the sky, reversing the deviation."
I may be wrong, but I'm assuming that since they say "all but two" that they did actually check this against all of the pyramids in Egypt, excluding pyramids that were not completed or those were this measurement can't be made (i.e. covered mostly by sand). I would guess that since this is such a heated topic that the misalignment from true north of each pyramid is already known and therefore easy to correlate to any data they have gathered.Yes they had, but very roughly 1000 years earlier beta Ursae Minoris (Kochab) and eta Ursae Majoris (Alkaid) had simultaneous transits too. And earlier still there were other simultaneous transits of bright star pairs. The only reason for choosing the Kochab-Mizar alignment seems to be because it fits the orthodox date.
Yes, that's true. Maybe I'm wrong but I have a hard time believing that with ancient records, both in Egypt and other civilations, and from radio-carbon dating of materials inside the pyramid (including the remains of the pharoahs), that Egytologists can't date the pyramids to within 1000 years. To me it would seem that the Kochab-Mizar alignment is the closest to the time when the pyramids are believed to have been built. And, since the data lines up very well, it is reasonable to believe that this is the method they used to find true north, especially considering the accuracy in which they were able to do so.
I say that if you hypothesize that the pyramids were built in, say 3500 BC instead, using this very same method of finding north, but using the simultaneous transits of Kochab-Alkaid instead, then this very same pattern of misalignment would appear if the construction dates were offset from each other by the same amount of time.
That's true. But again, that's only if they can't date the pyramids to within a 1000 year time frame.
I'm not saying that they shouldn't test this theory to other alignments to see if the data fits. I think the theory focuses on this alignment because it is generally accepted that the orthodox date of the pyramids is fairly accurate. Or at least accurate enough to rule out alignments that occurred much earilier.
Also, I'm not saying that this is definetly the way that the Egyptians found true north. But it does seem to be a good theory.
It seems to me that Spence took a look at the 'accepted' age of the pyramids, decided that the pyramid alignments were celestial in nature, and voila, here's a couple of stars which lined up 4500 years ago.
You'll pardon my saying so, but you don't seem to have a full grasp of what she did.
The original question was how the Egyptians managed to align their pyramids to true north. There is much reason to believe that this was not coincidence, and that the Egyptians had every intention of aligning the pyramids with the stars, because of their religion.
Any observant astronomer, of any time, will notice that the stars rise and set with the day and night, and the axis of this rising and setting wobbles with the year. They will also see that there are some stars, near the poles, that never set-- they just go in circles. These stars were called "eternal stars," and the Egyptians wished their pharoah to join them for eternity. That's the reason for the alignment.
Today, we have Polaris, which sits pretty much exactly on the polar axis. Back then, they didn't have such a star. So Spence reasoned they might have used a couple of the closest bright stars to the pole, which was two stars in Ursa Minor.
When she followed up this supposition, she realized that there would be a very small systematic drift over time, assuming they continued using the same two stars to perform their alignment. Using generally accepted ages of the pyramids, she found that the alignment of the pyramids drifted by the same amount.
This evidence is hugely compelling.
Now, because the evidence is so strong, she could feel comfortable turning the methodology on its head and using it to calculate the dates of construction. It is based on the assumption that they used this method of alignment, and maybe that's a big assumption, but it doesn't look that way to me, personally.
This article has absolutely no 'proof' anywhere, and is just another in a long line of pyramid dating schemes.
If you're willing to throw out all other lines of evidence and historical records, then you're right. There's no proof. But if you're willing to go so far, then there's no proof of anything, anywhere.
The main point of all this is that her main objective was not to date the pyramids, but to explain their alignment. The dating scheme only followed as a consequence.
DISCLAIMER: IANAE (I am not an Egyptologist). I've just heard this story from about three separate sources, so I've learned a lot about it by now.
Accountability on the heads of the powerful.
Power in the hands of the accountable.
There is no reason that an earlier civilization could not have travelled in boats across the atlantic - particularly the short africa - south american neck. Bringing up the issues of continental drift makes such a proposal almost unbelievable.
It is true that the sphinx is much older than previously suspected, and that the dates of other monuments are suspect too. But the time gap between them and the central american pyramids are quite huge - thousands of years. A common old civilization would have trouble explaining this time gap.
There are a thousand forms of subversion, but few can equal the convenience and immediacy of a cream pie -Noel Godin
I don't doubt that the method used would have worked, but the article (I think; I'll have to read it again) gives no reasons for the anicent Egyptians to be aware of how or why that method would have worked. The article seems to imply that the scientists have figured not how the Egyptians did it, but how the scientists themselves would have done it had they found themselves thrown back in time.
not all knowledge has to be written down to be preserved over generations - you simply get the older ones to teach the younger ones how to fly the ship - isn't that the way we do it?
But how do you teach someone to land on a planet when the nearest planet is 100 light years away? Can you drive? Were you taught in a classroom? You don't teach piloting skills. That needs training. That needs someone with real world experience.
How do you know how much alien technology goes into building a pyramid?
They were made from local materials. They seem to have been hand carved. The locals just needed a hand getting the directions right.
i could draw you a map on a piece of scrap paper in under 2 minutes just from my memory of what the continents look like that would be sufficient for finding Egypt from space.
With sufficient detail to land a space ship? And how would the aliens know how fast continental drift is on a given planet? We don't need to find Egypt. We need to find a particular part of Egypt.
Scannning the entire surface of the earth for pyramidal shaped objects has got to be the most wasteful way of finding a landing spot. The best technique would be to arbitrarily pick a coordinate on the surface of the planet on which to build a marker which would indicate where the landing spot was.
What sort of a marker? A pyramid sounds like a good idea. Build a few in a semi random pattern just in case the planet has naturally occuring features of this shape, or other cultures have decided to use a similar means of navigation. Local labour is cheap.
And if the aliens can travel across the gulf of space, they can certainly send a message back to their home world. Even if the message takes as long to get back as a return trip ( assuming that they can travel at the speed of light ), but any other ships partway between their homeworld and the earth would receive the message in mid-voyage and would know where to go. -- including unmanned ships.
Ths would require infinitely efficient communications with a vessel that may or may not be following.
It's called latitude and longtitude. I know this might be hard for such a deluded mind as yourself, but by measuring angles to the sun and the stars, you can *** gasp *** figure out where you are without pyramids.
On the condition that you can transmit this information back reliably. So how do you decide where the greenwich meridien equivalent is? How do you indicate this?
Or, on a more advanced level, you keep a few satellites in space and set up a GPS system.
How long are these going to last? What if the othe culture develops space travel and destroys them?
But don't take my word for it, just look at the space program. I don't see space shuttles requiring pyramids in order to land.
The Space shuttle is piloted by humans. Not only that, but it is piloted by humans who know precisely where everything is. Not only that, but it is piloted by humans who have been trained to land on a planet. Not only that, but they still need navigational beacons. Does any airstrip have a radio beacon with a 3000 year power supply?
Records of near by towns show that farmers were paid for their labor on the Pyramids during the off seasons.
This is the funnest thing I've read on Slashdot in twenty years. At this rate, I won't laugh until 2020. Hal?
It's mandatory to wash your hands before returning to the land of Dairy Queen.
I don't think your getting it, or maybe I'm still not being clear (or maybe I AM wrong, but I'm confident I'm not).
Let me see if I can explain this better...
The Pyramid is located at the exact center of the Earth's land mass. That is, its East-West axis corresponds to the longest land parallel across the Earth, passing through Africa, Asia, and America. Similarly, the longest land meridian on Earth, through Asia, Africa, Europe, and Antarctica, also passes right through the Pyramid. Since the Earth has enough land area to provide 3 billion possible building sites for the Pyramid (or so I've read, I'M not about to verify this!), the odds of it's having been built where it is are 1 in 3 billion (also what I've read). I don't just believe everything I read, but the logic in this does hold, I just can't verify the exact number of permutations and the odds.
And I also have a few other details about the pyramids that are worthy of thought. Again, I'm not claiming any of this is accurate or that it means anything if it is, but it is interesting food for thought (this all refers the the Great Pyramid by the way)...
We know from geometry that there is a universal relationship between the diameter of a circle and its circumference. Consider this: The height of the Pyramid's apex is 5,812.98 inches, and each side is 9,131 inches from corner to corner (in a straight line). If the circumference of the Pyramid is divided by twice its height (the diameter of a circle is twice the radius), the result is 3.14159, which just happens to be pi. Incredibly, this calculation is accurate to six digits. So the Pyramid is a square circle, and thus pi was designed into it 4,600 years ago. Pi is demonstrated many times throughout the Pyramid.
Other numbers are also repeated throughout. Each of the Pyramids four walls, when measured as a straight line, are 9,131 inches, for a total of 36,524 inches. At first glance, this number may not seem significant, but move the decimal point over and you get 365.24. Modern science has shown us that the exact length of the solar year is 365.24 days.
The average height of land above sea level (Miami being low and the Himalayas being high), as can be measured only by modern-day satellites and computers, happens to be 5,449 inches. That is the exact height of the Pyramid.
All four sides of the Pyramid are very slightly and evenly bowed in, or concave. This effect, which cannot be detected by looking at the Pyramid from the ground, was discovered around 1940 by a pilot taking aerial photos to check certain measurements. As measured by today's laser instruments, all of these perfectly cut and intentionally bowed stone blocks duplicate exactly the curvature of the earth. The radius of this bow is equal to the radius of the Earth.
If a pion (n-) collides with a proton in the woods & noone is there to hear it, does lamdba decay into the source pa
The only bit of information they really need to pass on is where the longitude prime meridian is.
How do they do that? Radio communication sin't hugely reliable over interstellar distances. You have to make sure that people are listening.
If there is any need for a marker then you don't get the locals to build it, you don't build it out of local rock and you make sure it can't be missed from orbit.
How much could you store on a space shuttle in terms of construction tools? How much could you store in terms of tools for teaching, and threatening the locals?
This is off of the topic.
Beware the wood elf!!!
I'm not terribly good at orbital dynamics, but I assume you include Lagrange points in that list - aren't they great collectors of dust and garbage? If I were to leave something there I'd have to take special care to make them last longer, right?
Cardinal point orientation is not unusual in British monuments from the same age (I'm not going to touch on the Orkney Stonemasons and Egypt angle, that's mainly supposition). How? Simple: at that time, the midwinter sunrise was almost exactly south east, and the midwinter sunset at exactly south west. Midday? More or less due south.
Lay out a circle. Stand in the centre, you can make out the cardinal points. No problem. This concept was extended by brits in the later Bronze Age, who developed a "four poster" monument, often precisely aligned NE-SW with 4 stones at the corners of both a circle and a rectangle. Hard? no. Simple common sense. All it needs is a rope, a small community, some rock nearby. Increase the size of any of these variables, and I'm sure you have the formula for many prehistoric monuments like the pyramids.
Actually I hold a pilot's licence - so I know quite a bit about flying as it happens. Absolutely you need hand's on experience to learn to fly - but guess what. They'd be in a spaceship!!!! And besides, computer automated landing and flight controlls are not so difficult. But navigation and pilotting control are not the same thing - you can teach navigation from a book no problem.
"Ths would require infinitely efficient communications with a vessel that may or may not be following."
Infinitely efficient? no - not at all. A simple radio signal would be more than sufficient. Whether a ship was following or not would make no difference. If you broadcast a signal in the direction of the originating world, it would naturally be intercepted by any possible ships part way between the two points - or given differences in possible orbit patters you simply broadcast the signal in a wide range such that you cover all possible areas in which rendezvousing ships could be located. It's remarkably simple.
There are a thousand forms of subversion, but few can equal the convenience and immediacy of a cream pie -Noel Godin
You can't. Your understanding is simply totally flawed. Now, get out you math book, you'll see that there is no center on the surface of a sphere!. That's all there is to it. I could use the same logic to prove that my bed is the center of the Universe.
Wrong. You can't measure the original length of these things to the accuracy of an inch. Less than a meter is hard. For example, approximately 7 meters has eroded away from the top of Cephren's pyramid. So, this:
is just laughable. Bullshit in, bullshit out.
You should stop reading and start thinking instead. Nowadays, there is no clear surface of the pyramids. It's just huge rocks. If you think that you need a laser instrument to measure anything there, you should jump on a plane to Egypt and see for yourself. It is not possible to measure anything about the slope of the pyramids to an accuracy to more than a few degrees. There are similar reasons why it is wrong to say that they couldn't have used solar methods to align the pyramids.
Also, if you go to Egypt (I've been there, and the things I saw are the most impressive manmade things I have seen), you'll see that the Pyramids (there are if I remember correctly 97 known pyramids), were built on trail and error.
They are fantastic, but they are fantastic because it shows the dedication and skill of the Egyptian people.
Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
you mean it's a testament to slave labor.
Noone other than a slave touched those blocks of stone.
If you have a gigantic force of human labor you can do anything... if they are slaves it just get's cheaper.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Davidovits also runs www.geopolymer.org, and is extremely knowledgable in geopolymer technology, which is what led him to do Pyramid research. Afer reading his straightforward and forthright facts about the physics of scale in carving and hauling massive blocks, one can see why the conventional theories of pyramid building fall apart very quickly.
He suggests that the Pyramids are made of agglomerated, man-made stone. A very very quick gloss over of his theory is available on his website here.
While the book doesn't go into detail about the astronomical alignment, many other theories brought up in the followup threads are questioned and addressed, including the dangerously stupid "brothers from space" idea.
--Mike
Mike Massee
Just so you know, some egyptolgists (like Christian Jacq) contend that there was never any slave labour in classical Egypt, in spite of what the Hebrew version is. They claim all those workers indeed received pay, perhaps not generous, granted, but they were salaried, or so they say.
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Information wants to be beer, or something like that.
Since the Earth has enough land area to provide 3 billion possible building sites for the Pyramid (or so I've read, I'M not about to verify this!), the odds of it's having been built where it is are 1 in 3 billion (also what I've read
This argument doesn't work. You've started with the knowledge of where the pyramids are, and said "Hmmmm. What could possibly be special about that position. Oh! I know! They're right in the spot that is the 'Center of Earth's Land Mass'" (not that I understand how you claim that it's the center of Earth's land mass - I would think that would be near the center of the earth since the earth is (nearly) a sphere!). Then you say the odds of that are 1 in 3 billion. So.... What are the odds of me living in the house that I live in? Since there are 6 billion people on the earth, I'd say 1 in 6 billion! Impossible! By your reasoning, I just proved that I don't live in my own house.
Other numbers are also repeated throughout. Each of the Pyramids four walls, when measured as a straight line, are 9,131 inches, for a total of 36,524 inches. At first glance, this number may not seem significant, but move the decimal point over and you get 365.24. Modern science has shown us that the exact length of the solar year is 365.24 days.
Are you proposing that the ancient Egyptians (or aliens or whoever else) had some concept of the inch? Give me a break - the inch is a completely arbitrary unit that has not been around for nearly long enough for it to matter here. COINCIDENCE.
I'm not terribly good at orbital dynamics, but I assume you include Lagrange points in that list - aren't they great collectors of dust and garbage? If I were to leave something there I'd have to take special care to make them last longer, right?
Any aliens who can manage to get a ship to travel at an acceptable fraction of the speed of light without knocking big holes in the hull (and getting fried with radiation) shouldn't find this an especially hard engineering problem.
You know the War on Drugs is getting completely out of control when they start testing 3000 year old mummies.
"Bite me, it's fun!" - Crowe T. Robot
Yes, I find it rather difficult to believe dead people could consume cocaine..(ba-dum ching)
. They are pretty confident that the people actually consumed cocaine while they were alive.
So you're saying the drug problem has existed for THOUSANDS of years? We'll never win the drug war.
Some people have proposed that ancient Egyptians where trading with Central and South America thousands of years before Colombus or the Vikings had even thought about it.
I concur with your statements. However, there are still many questions unanswered about the pyramids. I dare say finding true north is not the most difficult part of stacking all those stones.
On a side note: I want to see the robot "Upuat" explore more of the air-shafts.
So the aliens are clever enough to build space ships that can travel across the vast distances of space reliably that many generations live and die on the ship before it arrives on the target planet. And they are sophisticated enough to convince and teach the local human population to use alien technology to build pyramids, and they're good enough at teaching the young aboard the ship to preserve this knowledge but not clever enough to teach the young how to actually fly the spacecraft that is holding the entire venture together?
Yes. How to build pyramids can be written in a book. Flying and landing spaceships requires training. A driving test is not something that you do on paper. Similarly for flying - You need a planet and a reasonably good spacecraft and fuel supply to teach landing on a planet. Simulators can only go so far. The amount of alien technology used for building pyramids is quite small.
They got to earth, they landed, presumably they had to spend a good deal of time exploring to find the right human civilization to be the guardians of their "spaceport", but they couldn't draw a map of the landscape? They didn't have to know about our geography before they got here, only afterwards!!! But if the pyramids were built by them, or by their influence upon us, then naturally they would have had to arrive here to do that influence - and they would have seen the landscape.
But to do that they need to redraw the map each time someone gets there. They need to guess where previous visitors landed. They actually need someone on every single vessel. Who says they don't ever want to send unmanned supply ships?
Sorry, most ancient Egyptians were related to the 'Semetic' family of people, which includes Arabs and Hewbrews. They cannot by any stretch of the imagination be considered 'black'. Now there were 'Nubians' (black Africans) in ancient Egyptian society, and many of them achieved positions of power, wealth, and influence, but they were considered a distinct race with known origins (ie, they immigrated, were enslaved, or invaded from the upper reaches of the Nile.) Get your PC bullshit right.
---
Galileo keeps popping up in discussions like this....but there is a world of difference between being jailed for going against a religious doctrine and a theory being met with skepticism because it contradicts a good deal of evidence (especially when the theory relies strongly on supposition instead of hard evidence).
Strikes against the Orion theory as I understand it:
- In order to get a "match" between the pyramid
layout and Orion's Belt, you have to "flip" the
star chart, if I recall correctly.
- Matching any given three or four points to
some other three or four points is an easy
coincidence, especially when the margin of error
in placing either set of points is high (putting
a star chart on top of a map of the Giza Plateau
will yield literally millions of star combinations
that happen to fall on the patches of ground
covered by the pyramids...the fact that the stars
that form Orion's Belt do so, while perhaps
interesting, does nothing to prove that such
a match was intentional).
- The projected date of construction the Orion
theory points to (again, from my understanding)
contradicts the date supported by a large body of
archaeological evidence, including (but not
limited to) contemporary literary source, digs
on the villages erected around the site to house
the construction workers, and items (such as the
ships buried at the Great Pyramid's base) placed
on site apparently during or soon after
construction.
Until the theory is better supported, I can't help but dismiss it.-- WhiskeyJack
How much could you store on a space shuttle in terms of construction tools?
The space shuttle can't even manage an Earth-Luna round trip, where radio lag isn't an issue. You'd want something a bit more sophisticated for travelling any distance...
Why mess around with big piles of rock when a transmitter powered by radio isotopes will do the job far more easily.
maybe they have no wood now because they cut down all the trees and used the wood to make ramps. Maybe they didn't drag the stones there, Giza was solid rock and they merely cut away everything that was not pyramid.
Not having my library (and too lazy to do a Google search), makes me think you are correct. I stand corrected...
I support the EFF - do you?
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
That's because we get all our technology from aliens. So really, it's our near future technology that resembles the aliens of today.
reliability. A great lump of rock will continue to be a great lump of rock indefinitely. A transmitter has fragile parts.
Well I think that this looks much like the Mars Face you know? You have tons of alignements and try to guess what the Hell they mean... Funny? No. Real. Even not knowing Hoagland's inventions/visions I and a few people discovered that there are real alignements in Cydonia. All we knew before this was that some american dodos talked about some "schemes" in Martian Cydonia.
And yes they are aligned. The City, the Fortress, the D&M pyramid, the "Fussy Face" and a bunch of other landscape formations. And they do make some very curious and nearly ordered patterns. So one could talk about a "scheme".
However...
First these orders are not absolutely perfect. they have errors ranging 100-200 meters. Even considering all possible landscape movements, possible unexperience of the "supposed authors", such discrepancies are too big. That would mean not aliens flying in saucers but someone building a gigantic Stonehendge at most.
Second. I never saw Hoagland's theory in detail. However the 2-3 diagrams I saw show that ours and Hoaglands are COMPLETELY different. Yes we use the same formations and the same primitive relations. However one ends talking about Hyperphysics and other talking about organisms and Stone Ages. That's what we end in. Among several other things.
So if the Gize pyramids have some sort of alignment and these alignments fit on something this is not even half way to conclude the Truth. Maybe the contrary. In Mars we have only alignments with a weird discrepancy. NOTHING ELSE.
In Egypt we have a mess of alignments, joined with tons of fairy tales, a bit of History, and a bit of Maths. Don't wonder if suddenly that big Pyramid turns into a bizarre monument to fertility or something more weird. Or some equivalent to our Arms Race (ex. "Hey Babilon we have a much better ziggurat"). And don't search for the aliens there. If they have been here, then they have all passed away ~3-5 thousand years before anyone thought about building this stuff.
Erm, don't want to piss on the fire, but Orion's belt is a straight line. Straight lines are quite common in architecture, aren't they? =)
Ok, so therefore we never had slavery in the United states either... they were paid in housing and food. and how about the businesses of the 20's? that you lived in the company's house and bought from the company store, and somehow you never made any money and the company basically owned you.... or how about child labor in aisa? those children are getting 3 cents a day, oh and the parents get a hefty lump sum for giving their child to "a job boss".
Slavery can be called labor in many ways... and it is always the "CEO's" that write the history books..... not the laborer...
I'd look closer. They didnt have a word or pictograph for slave, it was "worker". so therefore we should just ignore it? Not me.
research it, and you will start to see that is was indeed slavery.... hell, the german war machine was built on the backs of slaves (if they weren't being killed) in WW-II.
History is written by the victors not the opressed.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Well, as is the case with any theory, you start with what you can observe and then find a solution that fits those observations. That's the nature of any scientific exploration. So, making an observation of where the pyramids are, and then making an observation about how that location relates to the land mass of the planet, you have yourself a theory. I certainly agree it could be a coincidence, it's just an improbable one. I also agree, the center of land mass certainly IS the core of the planet, but the observations I was describing is talking about surface features of the planet.
As for the inch thing, I would agree that one seems a bit "out there", more so than the rest perhaps. There ARE explanations, but not ones that even *I* am willing to look at! Again, I was just stating an observation that I don't even know to be true (someone else claims it is, I don't know it to be factual). If it IS true, it is very interesting, I agree is sounds crazy though.
If a pion (n-) collides with a proton in the woods & noone is there to hear it, does lamdba decay into the source pa
death treats??? kewl :)))
(not knocking ur english btw, as you asked me not to, but it's just such a fun thought.)
~ppppppppö
And your contention that early industrial age labour conditions is akin to slavery is a very far stretch of historical facts, IMHO. An intellectual cousin of the beat out argument about H-1Bs being "indentured servants".
--
Information wants to be beer, or something like that.
To get to another planet is a rasonable time, we would need to produce more power then our sun. Will we discover a way to do this? I hope so.
I have looked at this from all sides, I did for years, but there are somethings that make no sense. If NASA had pictures the would point to other intelligent life being here, they would releaseit, why? Money. What would happen if they said, look here are artifacts from an acient civilization? they would get billions more dollars. even if the military wanted it kept a secret, we would not have seen NASA's budget qwindle year after year.
If you have ever dealt with hardware like robotics and satalites, you would know they always go down at the wrong time!
Marsd is REALLY far way, and it's moving, the fact that NASA has had to implemented a build its cheaper, and send more mentality(which is being re-thought) probably explains there failures.
The human mind looks for patterns, its what it does. if I take 9 coins throw them on the ground(a relitivly random event) the human mind will look and find patterns. Thats what happening here, you have people looking for patters, that does not mean the pattern is of intelligent design.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Actually, a quick survey of "Aliens Built the Pyramids" type books and article shows healthy representation from many nations, not just the US. In fact, I believe that the most famous (at least widely published) proponent of this nonsense is English.
with humpy love,
with humpy love,
humpmonkey
I've seen this Documentary too. Not only did they find cocaine, but they also found near toxic amounts of nicotine. There are plants in Europe that can produce nicotine but not on the levels found on these mummies. Only the North American Tobaco plant produces large enough amounts of nicotine to explane this.
They also found trace amounts of THC and other drugs that could only have come from the Americas.
Personaly I doubt that the Egyptians had any direct contact with any one in the Americas. Instead, I think an indirect trade route is more likely to have existed through the Pacific across the many populated islands where goods and information would eventually make there way from South America to Egypt and back.
An exchange of information like this could have easily inspired the building of the later pyramids in Central and South America.
Of course, I don't always believe everything I see on OETA or the Discovery Channel and I acknowledge the fact that this ladies findings on these mummies could have been incorrect or all together false. It wouldn't be the first time research material had been contaminated. It also wouldn't be the first time a researcher falsified evidence in order to make a name for themselves.
The fundamental method of science is real simple: come up with an idea, check what else has been said, and look for new evidence that tests your idea.
Right! Exactly! My point is that the whole 'check what else has been said', and finding evidence that tests your evidence is missing.
What we're seeing here (if we go back far enough) is someone reading that Khuffu (sp?) built the pyramids (which is based on a single hastily painted cartouche of dubious origins), tracing Khuffu's reign back to 4500 years ago, and then everyone else trying to line up all other evidence to match those dates. If you do some reading on the subject, you'll find that there are a lot of questions regarding the age of the pyramids. The people who are questioning the age of the pyramids have their own astrological explanations, but they also have geological explanations, such as the weathering patterns on the Sphinx. A Google search found the following http://ds.dial.pipex.com/ritson/que st/ sphinx/. Read all about it.
We'll leave the questions of the builders out of this for now...
Your post, as it follows mine, seems to indicate that you believe the above methodology to be ok. If you do, then logically, you'd believe the flat earth to be the center of the universe, and that heavy things fall faster than light things.
How about the guy a couple of years ago that had evidenc of water erosion on the sphinx, and that would make the currently accepted timeline bunk.
Did anyone hear he end of that? Was it all fluff or
did it have any merit?
-"You'll have plenty of time to sleep when you're dead."
first i am egyptian ... ..(or in other words white christians) ,nowledge and civilization ... believe what you want ...now you dont ... ...plus the great pyramids is not the only wonder of the pharoes
and we think that anyone who try to say that aliens built the pyramids and not the egyptian
is jealous from the thought that egyptians once were at the top of the world and had all the science
the european or american
dont want to believe that any one but them once raised the flag of science and knowledge
i might even get karma for what i just said
watch a movie called the "13th warrior"
this film was hardly attacked with bad reviews because it showed the fact that the arabs were once way superior to european in terms of science
anyway
but life goes in cycles( loops)
everything goes round
now you have it
the latest movement was from europe to usa
now usa hold the flag
wonder who is next
the thought that aliens built the pyramids is very racist
so, what do you think ?
sheep for the sheep human for the human i just wonna keep my soul alive
A trading line from New Guinea to Australia wasn't able to transplant crops or the idea of agriculture across a short, island-lined gap from New Guinea to Australia. Yet the Pacific Ocean and the width of Asia was a route through which cocaine and the idea of pyramids could travel?
No, the Atlantic route makes much more sense. Somebody merely travelling to the Atlantic coast of Northern Africa would have discovered the same currents Columbus used to speed his way west. A sporadic trade along that route would actually have been faster and easier than either seaborne or overland trade with China.
There's no "we" in team, only "me"
The sheets of rock that used to cover the pyrmids, was removed to build Ciaro.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
A great lump of rock will continue to be a great lump of rock indefinitely.
Except for being erroded and the locals using it as a "quarry".
Also our devices and pets will rebel against us, according to the myans. Shifting of the poles may cause civilization to collapse, but not the end of the world.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
But did Orion's belt exist as a visible feature at the time? Between changes in the earth's tilt and stellar drift, it looked somewhat different 4500 years ago -- IIRC there WAS no Orion's belt as such. In any case, Orion was a Greek myth, not Egyptian, but it seems to be a favourite for some folk to latch onto as having special significance. Perhaps it keeps the aliens away. (You don't see any aliens, do you? :)
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Keep in mind that the "solar" boat found at Gizi was larger and had more load capacity than the first boats used by Europeans to visit North America.
The Egyteans knew of 4 races other than their own and often showed pictures of Africans and Indians (from India) in their pictures.
The surveys of the differnt areas of acient Egypt show they knew the basis for surveys since the 4000 yr old ones are more accurate than the ones from 100 years ago. That sort of implys that they knew about astronomey based surveys which would imply they could navigate long distances. There are rumors about them navigating around Africa. They had the boats, why not?
The Egypteans seemed to want to stay at home and didn't seen to have a spirit of adventure. The old writings say they would use forien crews for their boats. I wonder if there was something about their religion that keep them from going far.
this painting, and this one, located at this site:
...
"A circle of fire coming in the sky, noiceless, one rod long with its body and one rod wide. After some days these things became more numerous, shining more than the brightness of the sun."
The following passage was translated from Egyptian hieroglyphics dating back to the 15th century BC
You quitting proves that the karma kap worked. The most annoying of the whores shut up. --CmdrTaco
angels i think were way back in biblical times
chariots:
The First Book of the Kings, Commonly Called: The Fourth Book of the Kings
"2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into
heaven."
Well considering most of their contemporaries were pre-literate, then yes you're absolutely right. Perhaps they were more literate than many other civilizations of the time - but that doesn't really say much. Consider it this way:
98-99% of the population are farmers.
of the remaining 1-2%, the vast majority are
craftsmen or merchants. so perhaps 0.2% of the total population makes up the upper eschelons of scribes, priests and nobility. most nobles, and many priests cannot read or write - so what are you left with? not much...
There are a thousand forms of subversion, but few can equal the convenience and immediacy of a cream pie -Noel Godin
There is an article in the current issue of Skeptic magazine that goes into the whole pyramid thing (it's available online, too).
Today, we have Polaris, which sits pretty much exactly on the polar axis. Back then, they didn't have such a star. So Spence reasoned they might have used a couple of the closest bright stars to the pole, which was two stars in Ursa Minor
/sphinx/
So by your reasoning, (and I am neither an Egyptologist, nor an astronomer), she went back an abitrary amount of time, found two arbitrary stars which lined up, and that proves something? What I'm saying is that, due to the wobble in the earth's rotation, if she went back 2500 years, not 4500, she could have probably found two stars which have the exact same characteristics when used to orient objects mapped to a location on the ground. Would this provide any more proof of the age of the pyramids? What if she chose Polaris and ??? (rembemer IANAA) to explain the alignment? Would that mean that the pyramids are less than 500 years old? Of course not.
For more information on the controversy raging in the archaeological community (as much as anything can rage within the archaeological community - 'raging' is pretty relative) the age of the pyramids, take a look at http://ds.dial.pipex.com/ritson/qu est
Because the ammount of energy it would take to come to this planet from another star in a reasonable time is more then can be produced from said planet?But your a "Scientist", so you knew that because no scientist worth his/her salt ever spouts off with out looking up some facts.
I'll buy a rise of a great civilization when all the contentes where contectd way before I believe aliens have ever been here.
The same attitude that said the sun revolves around the earth is the same attitude that says no civilzation has ever been as advanced as us.
This planet has been able to bear life of a great variety, for a verl long time.
If our cilvilization was wiped out by some catastrophoic even, how long would our records hold up?
Very few things would survive more then 10000 years, execept maybe rushmore, the great wall, pyrmids.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Traditionally it was held that magnetic fields have no effect on living organisms - but this is far from true. Given a constant force present in the environment it makes sense that a creature would evolve to account for it in some way. The earth has had a magnetic field since the dawn of life - it is not surprising that living creatures take advantage of it.
NOAA warns that class G1 and above magnetic storms may affect animal migrations.
Yup.
Indeed. Excellent point. Glad to see my assumption on the Lagrange points wasn't that far off :-)
Well, they did present the nile and egypt in their mythology as the cradle of all of creation, so I can imagine that for them travelling as far away as Judea ( Israel ) would be like sailing off the edge of the world.
There are a thousand forms of subversion, but few can equal the convenience and immediacy of a cream pie -Noel Godin
It might also have something to do with the greater range of holiday (and business) opportunities within non-passport range, too. The 50 states have a larger land area and a broader range of climates than Europe outside of Russia, and a bigger economy, too (IIRC). You may find that the number of passports in Europe goes down now that they aren't necessary to travel between members of the EU.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
this "every 26,000 years" thing might fly by some people without a correct explanation. it is called progression and is what happens while the earth slowly rotates around its 25.4 degree off-axis spin.
the earth spins around its axis like normal, that gives us a 24 hour day. but the axis is also spinning, ever so slowly. this gives about 26,000 years of progression, and also makes the stars shift their position relative to terrestrial viewers over the millenia.
always remember that astronomy is an easy place to find patterns in, there is always something you can pin a theory to...
signatures are for fools with hands
I'll grant your points #1 & 2 & 3 & 6 (that the sphinx is older than the pyramids, and that the pyramid shape shows up on different continents), but don't find anything remarkable about them.
#5 I've not heard of ever before... I'd be interested in hearing a reference and how such a picture of "proto-Antarctica" is more than just a squiggly circle.
#4 I recall from the show you mention. The presenter showed some uncolored stone statues in South America. To me, they looked obviously Polynesian. When he said that they had to be African blacks, I was flabbergasted.
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
Lucky bastard, you so clearly don't work in IT. Obviously, the aliens had "marketting" departments.
-*- Any technology indistinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced -*-
All our scince and technology is based on the works of a couple of scientists and engineers who lived about 100 years ago (more or less). The Great Pyramids were built about 4,000 years ago. Clearly they had their own technology probably based on something thing entirely different from what we have our science based on. we all know about the law of Gravity and Newtons laws of motion. These laws have alwasys existed but the way the were understood and implemented must have been different. So I guess what I am trying to say is, it is very difficult to understand something looking from the outside.
Different pyramids were covered with different things. I don't think any of the big ones were totaly completed. Even today there is a mindset in Cairo to leave buildings unfinished.
The step pyramid was basicly sand and sandstone. The third pyramid at Giza had red granite.
I'm not sure I buy the story about the stones being used in other buildings. If that was true, there would be lots of nice angle cut stones at places like the Market (Cahn-el-????) and the Mosques. There seems to be a taboo about using stones from a different religion's building to build a Mosque.
My theory is that the great pyramids were built starting with a small chamber dug in the ground, and a small pyramid built on top. Then sides were added till as it got bigger. From time to time major reworks would be done and the chamber would be moved higer up in the structure with more adornments. These people knew that people were only likely to die as some ages and the structure of the largest two fit that. (people then woudl tend to die at ages 2, 10-16, sometime 20-30, about 45 or from old age which was about 60 then)
The story of Herodous also tells of the building of the pyramid and how the queen had obtained her own stones for her own pyramid. I'm wondering if the King's father-in-law owend a quary since that fact could easily turn into the recored story years later.
One last thing. I don't call the kings Pharos. The Pharos were kings of an area now inside Iraq. These words come from the bible and when the french "rediscovered" the land we now know as Egypt, they assumed it was the land talked about in the bible and called it "Aegypt". The Hewbrew word means basicly "over the (big?) water (or river)". There is no evidence of the people of Isreal ever being in what is now modern Egypt.
However it seems that the Chatolics have lots in common with the old Egypt religion. Things like the Trinity (it was a Quadinty in Egypt but included the dude of the underworld), Blood of the God, Reserection, Eternal life, Heaven, Hell, Pergatory, Final Judgement before God. I'm guessing that Jesus and his clan picked up some of thouse concepts and took them to the Jews. Egypt also had cures for many common ailments that the Jews considered unclean (types of blindness and skin conditions, types of lameness) When it was illegal to touch a sick person, someone with a bit of medical knowlege would be a quite impressive healer.
"My own theory is that it could have been a warning and/or navigational beacon..."
Wouldn't this be a hypothesis and not a theory?
The BBC News (grahics) also has this story.
Richy C.
--
I believe Mesopotamia built rather large Ziggurats there are none in nearly as good a condition as the pyramids.
I'm just as keen on meeting aliens as the next guy, but even given that there are aliens, why is it so impossible to belive that us Humans once had a civilization even MORE advanced than anything on this planet now? Perhaps with spacecraft and construction techniques that would make modern construction look like kids playing with tinkertoys?
Anyway, the Great Pyramid and it's two little brothers are probably _much_ older than the hundreds of other little pyramids scattered all over Egypt... probably more than 4500 yrs. old.
A theory I find interesting is that all the other little ones are _attempts_ at re-creating the big one.
Good point, however, given the level of ship building at the time do you think a voyage like that could have been possible? I don't! Of course I think both theories are a bit far fetched.
The simplest explanation would be that the Central Americans came up with the idea of pyramid building on there own. The pyramid is a very simple, very impressive geometric shape, most of the civilized world had dreamed up this shape long before the Egyptians built there monuments. Also that the cocain and other drugs found in the mummies were the result of erroneous data, contaminated samples or even outright fraud.
In other words I don't nessesarily believe in the existance of a trade route across either ocean, only in the possibility. Stranger things have happened throughout history.
Why do scientists always have to come up with "rational explanations" when a simpler explanation is available?
They quite clearly had outside help. Visitors helped them. They assisted in the construction of huge pyramids which they found useful as a navigation device. This also explains why the same shapes wer e found both in Egypt, and in South America.
Re: Ramps
Sorry but it can't happen that way. There isn't enough material to do it thay way. Argument ended...
except... some of the internal stones are huge. Way too big to move anyway except ramps. So ramps were likly used in the construction of things like the grand gallery which isn't all that high up and they would have had about 1.5 million smallish stones (which they were real good at moving) laying about.
For thouse looking for your own theorys, most of the stones weigh about a ton. They do get smaller as you go up. The first few rows are about 1m*1m*.6m. American pine splits at about 2000 lbs/sq inch. Oh, thers about 3 million of them and they are spaced within 2 inches of each other.
I found a few stones in on pyramid that show they were siting on vertial logs. Herodous says they pyramids were built with machines made from wooden planks. Problem with that theory is that there is no evidence of any wood ('cept the solar boat) at Giza. None whatsoever. Funny that. Wood being a rare thing and it does get cold at night there and 4+ thousand years of scavengers looking for something to burn.
and often showed pictures of Africans and Indians (from India) in their pictures
;-)
That wouldn't be too surprising, black Africans lived nearby to the south (Nubia, Kush) and India probably was known to them via Mesopotamia or Persia and its trade with the East. India was known to the Greeks as well. Had any of them known about the Chinese or Japanese, I would've been impressed
The old writings say they would use forien crews for their boats. I wonder if there was something about their religion that keep them from going far.
Probably not, Egypt had to rely on foreigners, because they supplied the boats. You see, Egypt had no large supply of timber to be used for shipbuilding. So they went to the master mariners of the region, the Phoenicians, in present-day Lebanon where vast pineforests formed a precious resource.
In fact, that solar boat you mentioned contains beams so large they had to have been made from a single Lebanese pine. Nothing special, until you realise there aren't any pines that big left. We wouldn't be able to build another solar boat, not because of lack of technology, but of the resource needed.
So the Phoenician sailors simply came with the package, as they would later serve the Persians against the Greeks.
- Also Sprach Doktor Merkwurdigliebe
I assume that if it takes them generations to reach another planet, that they have plenty of time for each generation to train the next - not all knowledge has to be written down to be preserved over generations - you simply get the older ones to teach the younger ones how to fly the ship - isn't that the way we do it?
How do you know how much alien technology goes into building a pyramid? Did the aliens give you a copy of the encyclopaedia galactica? Where do you get this kind of knowledge from?
But to do that they need to redraw the map each time someone gets there. They need to guess where previous visitors landed. They actually need someone on every single vessel. Who says they don't ever want to send unmanned supply ships? "
Why would you need to redraw the map? the continental drift from the age the pyramids were built until now has been so minuscule as to hardly make any difference. i could draw you a map on a piece of scrap paper in under 2 minutes just from my memory of what the continents look like that would be sufficient for finding Egypt from space.
Scannning the entire surface of the earth for pyramidal shaped objects has got to be the most wasteful way of finding a landing spot. The best technique would be to arbitrarily pick a coordinate on the surface of the planet on which to build a marker which would indicate where the landing spot was. And even that's a complicated process.
And if the aliens can travel across the gulf of space, they can certainly send a message back to their home world. Even if the message takes as long to get back as a return trip ( assuming that they can travel at the speed of light ), but any other ships partway between their homeworld and the earth would receive the message in mid-voyage and would know where to go. -- including unmanned ships.
There are a thousand forms of subversion, but few can equal the convenience and immediacy of a cream pie -Noel Godin
Very good point. It does seem arbitrary. Sure, they could have used this method, but it could have been any pair of stars at any point in time. Why this particular pair? (Probably because that date fits with Egyptology's orthodoxical view of the historical timeline.)
Free Hans!
Discovery also has an article covering this topic as well. Not much different than the other two links already provided, however.
They were built by aliens as a means to land their ships. Any stargate sg-1 fan knows this to be fact.
Linux: Because a PC is a terrible thing to waste.
James Brents
Um... they did (kind of).
...,...) were the temples of Earth, Wind, Fire and Water.
Astrology was popular in Egypt. The Spynix was as we know it today was done at the start of "the age of Leo". The temple at Luxor has a line of Sphinx that had their lion heads choped off and replaced with ram head at the start of the next age.
The four major temples (Karnack Luoxr,
Almost certainly, but only having 2 weeks off a year (compared to four to five weeks +eight days public holiday that many people here in the uk get) exasperates this. I worked at IBM this summer and people who went on business trips had orders not to discuss holiday entitlement. Americans may get better pay, but I would still rather be able to take off a month and a half a year and enjoy my what I earn.
Paul Leader
uh dude,
go vist the damn thing and then tell me about how good the alignment of the stones is.
As if the pyramids themselves aren't records enough? We have very strong evidence that the pyramids exist, notwithstanding the lack of papyrus documentation.
I never said the pyramids don't exist. What I am saying is that it is human nature to brag about one's accomplishments. That in and of itself leads me to believe we should have seen some documentation. If the pyramids were tombs, is it likely that the Egyptians, who were EXCELLENT at recording almost EVERYTHING they did in day-to-day life, would have neglected to mention what they had done for their glorious leaders, who were considered just slightly lower than Gods?
Because the body was inside of a bunch of gold. Grab the gold casket, run like hell, sort out the treasure later, which includes disposing of the corpse that is inside of it.
That's possible. However, you are implying haste in their actions. A casket of gold would way a tremendous amount by itself, and moving quickly with it would be nearly impossible. If they had time to move it to begin with, they likely had time to open it up and get rid of the body, maybe reduce the weight a hundred pounds, maybe even two.
Eh? "Scrunch them together"? You mean make up new positions for them? It seems to me that just about any point in the world can be the center of all the landmass, depending on how the scruncher chooses to scrunch.
Ok, maybe I didn't explain this clearly... Take a world map, unfold it onto the floor. Draw a vertical line straight through where the pyramids are. Now measure how much land is to the left and how much is to the right. You'll find that they are almost totally equal. Coincidence? I can't say it's not, but it's a hell of a big one, that's my point.
Either that, or a reasonably good system of geometry. That level of accuracy is well beyond a "reasonably good system". It's damned near perfect, more perfect than what we have today (or so I've read, I don't know if that's true or not and even if it is it doesn't mean the Egyptians maybe had a better system than we do today).
Because alien belief isn't part of a reproducive meme complex, like God belief is. Duh. If you want people to believe in aliens as much as they believe in mystical things (like God), your alien theory needs to include parts that encouraging evangelism. And if you're just interested in The Truth (instead of polling people to see what beliefs are popular) then you won't worry about it.
Your implying that alien belief should be thought of like religion. I'm not saying that at all. My question was simply why is it so easu for people to believe in God and at the same time not believe in aliens? Let's look at it this way: we have pictures of UFOs, bits of implants, physical marks on the ground and many other things as "evidence" of aliens' existence and visitations to Earth. None of it is conclusive, every bit of it can be argued for authenticity, interpretation and implication. I'm not saying any of that stuff is real, mearly that it exists. What similar "evidence" can you offer, as tenuous as it may be, that God exists? Don't simply offer me philosophical and/or logical arguments, that is not evidence (if it was, alien existence would be an easy matter to prove). I'm talking about physical and historical evidence. Let's see, your the Shroud of Turrin (sp?). That's all I can think of. The Bible (and other religious documents) are not proof, they are simply books. I happen to believe in God myself, but I have no evidence whatsoever that he/she actually exists. I do have that evidence of aliens, even if none of it is even remotely solid.
If a pion (n-) collides with a proton in the woods & noone is there to hear it, does lamdba decay into the source pa
I'm not sure on the records part, but I have seen the theory of the "center of mass" Pangea idea. Look up the Pangea theory (which is based on plate tectonics, and seems logical - I remember looking at a map when I was 9 or so, and thinking - it's like a jigsaw puzzle - only later learning about the theory).
It is really a puzzle how the pyramids (esp the large ones) were put together. These are structures that today we would be hard pressed to build. The blocks are HUGE - some as large as small houses. They were cut, dressed, then moved many miles to the site, then LIFTED into place - some so accurately that one can't even stick a piece of paper in between the joints. Many of the blocks are so large only today's heaviest lifting cranes could move them.
I have read many theories on the construction of the pyramids - but only one stood out, and I wish I had a link. One researcher wrote about how the pyramids (and many other large structures around the world) actually seemed to be made out of a form of concrete aggregate of some sort. The form of concrete essentially allowed the blocks to be "poured" into place, much like we build large highway projects (and even buildings) today. The concrete was special (not like typical concrete), and that only recently have companies been able to recreate it, and use it comercially. The author of the book goes into great detail on the theory, and it seems plausible. He explains how he came to the conclusion, various tests he did, etc. It was a very interesting perspective, that doesn't throw history on it's head (like an alien help theory), but does give rise to questions about the real level of Egyptian technology...
I support the EFF - do you?
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
Gold....
King Tut had a bunch of gold. Someone even recently tried to steal the coffin but found out its quite heavy.
If the older kings used gold masks, its likly that they gold was stolen by later kings. There is also the real possability that they didn't have any gold at all. King Tut did a number of things that are unique to his tomb. To me it looks like everyone tried something for some reason. You know those gods are hard to please and you never know exactly what they want.
I wonder if this technique might have been known in other cultures of the same age. If, say, Babylonian buildings of equivalent age and orientation show the same offsets from true north, that might suggest that the technique was widespread. It's a pity that the Romans didn't start building monumental architecture until considerably later, else we might have a larger sample of buildings to measure. As it is, Egypt and Babylon are about the only two countries in that region building things to last at that point. Does anyone know if there are Chinese/far-east buildings of similar antiquity? I'm going to have to show this article to my teachers -- recently took Archeoastronomy, and currently taking Intro to Egyptian Heiroglyphs. Which I have a test in in the morning. Must . . . sleep . . . Selanit
They got to earth, they landed, presumably they had to spend a good deal of time exploring to find the right human civilization to be the guardians of their "spaceport", but they couldn't draw a map of the landscape?
You don't think they just might have gone into a polar orbit, mapped the planet, analyzed the atmosphere, etc, etc. before taking the major step of landing.
They didn't have to know about our geography before they got here, only afterwards!!!
Well they wouldn't know "geography", but it's just unbelievable that any race capable of intersteller travel wouldn't know about mapping planets, from orbit.
Dating pyramids is just wrong.
-cibrPLUR
I submitted this story 4,400 years ago!
But to do that they need to redraw the map each time someone gets there. They need to guess where previous visitors landed.
The only bit of information they really need to pass on is where the longitude prime meridian is. If there is any need for a marker then you don't get the locals to build it, you don't build it out of local rock and you make sure it can't be missed from orbit.
What happened to the theory that the three great pyramids were aligned according to the stellation of Orion, and put together in such a way that the Nile would be the Milkyway. And to make it even more perfect, if you look through a tunnel in the biggest of the three pyramids, you can see Aurora rising.
Both that exact configuration of Orion and the Milkyway and the star rising and being visible through that tunnel also happened only once in history, so that's how other scientist claim they know how old the pyramids really are.
<grub> Reading
Sorry but it can't happen that way. There isn't enough material to do it thay way. Argument ended... "
Well there's more than one way to build a ramp. Yes, if you're thinking of the big dirt ramp theory than yes, its true, this would be an unrealistic model. Although given that the egyptians bothered to build pyramids in the first place, I don't think they were really all that concerned about how practical a solution was.
but there are many other ramp solutions than a single giant dirt ramp. There is for example the wrap-around ramp model, the cut-back ramp model, all of which require very much less space or material/time to build.
As for wood, its well known that most Egyptian wood was imported from Lebanon, and any used in the building of the pyramids would likely have come from there. As for burning it, well if they had enough badasses with whips to keep the gangs of workers in line - I'm sure they could manage guarding some logs at night.
As I've said before, the exact construction methods used to build the pyramids are not known, but just because something is unknown doesn't automatically make it likely to be caused by aliens or seamonsters or anything of the type.
There are a thousand forms of subversion, but few can equal the convenience and immediacy of a cream pie -Noel Godin
What kind of bullshit is this? It's called latitude and longtitude. I know this might be hard for such a deluded mind as yourself, but by measuring angles to the sun and the stars, you can *** gasp *** figure out where you are without pyramids.
Should be rather trivial for these space travelling aliens to work this out.
Or, on a more advanced level, you keep a few satellites in space and set up a GPS system.
Might even have them map the planet too...
Just as curious as the Northern alignment of the pyramids is the fact that they correlate perfectly to the relative positions of the stars that make up the belt of Orion. Theres a good article about the positions here. Apparently it goes further than the 3 main nodes at Giza too, with the Nile representing the Milky Way, and a few other pyramids further afield being in the exact positions of other prime stars.
http://twitter.com/onion2k
And instead of saying "here's a cup, go into the next room...", they tell the mummy "please go into the next room and unwind"....
Meanwhile, I used to wish I could hear the music Egyptians played during the ancient mummification ceremonies, but then I realized it'd be just really old "wrap" music.
Practice random senselessness and act kind of beautiful.
So they're aligned to something..it happens to be north so some theories are developed. It's a conceited attitude to have. They built 'em that way because they wanted to. No matter which way the pyramids were built we'd find something to align them to and postulate bs theories. They must be aligned to south as well...or my house. I'm sure some modelling and theory could prove it.
Egyptians were not Africans
So do you want them to be Europeans or Asians? They can hardly be Americans or Australisians, Atlantians maybe...
I always like seeing such simple common-sense answers as these coming out. It shows that a little common sense is all that's needed to dispel the ridiculous "mysteries of the pyramids - were the egyptians in communication with aliens?" type hype.
Aliens are a modern mythology, this is true, and we like our mythologies to explain all unknowns. But it really does a big disservice to our appreciation of what these people accomplished with their limited technology.
I think in the end we moderns have a strong cultural prejudice, and like to believe that without the wonders of our modern world such accomplishments as the pyramids should not be possible without the aid of equally or greater technological skill - hence the desire for bringing aliens into the issue. But lets face it, the Egyptians weren't stupid, there's no evidence to suggest that human intelligence has increased over the millenia - just our technology. The Egyptians managed to create structures on a scale so grand that today we still marvel at them, its a marvel of human ingenuity - nothing to do with little grey men.
There are a thousand forms of subversion, but few can equal the convenience and immediacy of a cream pie -Noel Godin
The mother of Gengis Khan (Susan Khan), was a neice of the grandmother of the first wive of Chefren.
Susan discovered a way to contact aliens. ET answered the phone and with the help of Obi One and the Klingon-empire they found a way to place stones on top of each other and built pyramides.
On a birthdayparty Chefren heard about it stole the drawings and build the pyramides of Egypt.
I think we should rename the pyramides to the "mongolien-extra-terrestial pyramides".
Mark
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- if you love something, set it free; if it doesn't come back, hunt it down and kill it
Look up the Pangea theory (which is based on plate tectonics, and seems logical - I remember looking at a map when I was 9 or so, and thinking - it's like a jigsaw puzzle - only later learning about the theory).
Problem is that it's uncommon to have this shown on a globe. It's usually shown with a Mercator projection map, in which case you can only move things east and west.
Apparently this is so the termites always have a warm side of the mound to rest in (the side will always be east or west of the mound, so it will always be heating up one of the long, tall sides, so there's always a lot of surface area).
One thing puzzles me - how do these termites "know" how to do this?
There are other pretty amazing things about these mounds too. They're made up entirely of waste grass, the termites eating grass and excreting this dry grass stuff, they're absolutely massive. Inside, there's a huge network of tunnel, and if you break a bit of the mound off so it's exposed, an army of termites will come out and start repairing it. Awesome!
Apparently, you can also make a drink with water and crushed termite mound, which has some medicinal value, but I've forgotten what now.
Go and visit Australia - there's so much there that's different from the rest of the world. I was gobsmacked!
Be assured, this is not a flame. I'd suggest you should read Foucalt's Pendulum by Umberto Eco though ... it relates almost directly to what you're talking about.
:)
This isn't in the book, but basically, if you have two sets of an infinite number of variables, you'll be able to find some amazing coincidences between them. For example:
My age is 23. Multiply my age by two, as I have a sister (so there are two siblings in my family). Two times my age is 46. Now subtract four, which the sum of my eyes and ears (representing all the knowledge I hear and see). That leaves my with 42. Which, amazingly enough, is the meaning of life (obligatory Douglas Adams reference).
On the note of the pyramids being the centre of land mass, I'm not quite sure how you work that out. But I'm also sure that if you pick any number of other locations on the face of the planet, a large number of things will be an equal distance away. For example, if you pick the statue of liberty, you might hypothetically find that paris, addis ababa and perth are all the same distance (approximately) away. Those cities probably don't work, but you get the idea.
Most of the stuff I've read about the pyramids is in the realm of numerology. The problem with numerology (or cabalism) is that you can get anything to mean anything if you look long enough. Anyway, enough blathering
Have a read of Foucalt's Pendulum, though - it's a good book.
This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time.
Take a world map, unfold it onto the floor. Draw a vertical line straight through where the pyramids are. Now measure how much land is to the left and how much is to the right.
Not really much point doing this with a Mercator map, since anything near the poles is grossly distorted. Has anyone tried this with a globe?
Makes the whole pyramid thing even MORE enigmatic:
Coral Castle
Essentially, it is now a "tourist" attraction that was built from 1920-1940 by a single man, who was 5 feet tall and weighed 100 pounds, who had a 4th grade education, with hand tools. No one knows exactly why he built it, though he alluded it was for his "Sweet Sixteen", though that explanation is of dubious value.
He built it during nighttime, alone - and moved it once mid-construction. The blocks/sculptures are made of coral, and the largest weighs 30 tons! Absolutely NO ONE knows how he did it, though he claims he knew the methods of the Egyptians. Some teenage boys who witnessed a portion of the contruction (and who appear to be the only individuals to do so), said he floated the blocks around like "hydrogen balloons". He apparently took the secret of the construction to his grave.
Here is something relatively modern that we can relate to - yet just as enigmatic. Is it a grand hoax? Has anyone visited this site? Reading about this has me boggled!
I support the EFF - do you?
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
Paraoh doesn't Pay
(To the tune of "I've been Working on the Railroad")
We've been working on these buildings;
Pharaoh doesn't pay.
We've been doing what he tells us
Mixing straw with clay.
Can't you hear the master calling,
"Hurry up, make that brick!"
Can't you feel the master whip us
'Til we're feeling sick.
Oy vay, it's a mess,
A terrible distress,
Oy vay, it's a mess for Jews, us Jews.
Moshe's in the palace with Pharaoh,
Warning of all God's clout, clout, clout.
Moshe's in the palace with Pharaoh,
And God's gonna get us out!
We're singing . . . .
Fee, Fi, Fiddely eye oh,
Make our matzahs "to go" oh oh oh.
Fee, Fi, Fiddely eye oh,
Stick it to the ol' Pharaoh!
This of course assumes that we've hit the peak of propulsion technology and that no new science or possible loopholes in the universe exist that may indeed make interstellar travel much more feasible within a carbon-based lifeforms lifetime.
We're not exactly all that bright a race yet remember, we still enjoy killing and maiming each other, we've only had high-tech such as electricity (on a wide scale basis) for a couple hundred years at best. We have so much more to learn I'd think.
I do agree though that the possibility off ancient civilizations being much more advanced than we currently think they were is probably part of the answer.
However these ancients are much harder to find than traces of current civilization would be, there are many things around today that would survive nicely in the proper packaging and I'm sure some folks have buried such things already.
And don't forget about the space junk we've sent up, much of it will be in orbit for a long time before coming back to earth, I think the Keo(?) satellite is supposed to spend 50,000 years in orbit before plummeting back to the ground, and it's unpowered and in a lower orbit than our communications satellites parked in geo-stationary orbit 27,000 miles away.
There definitely is a bunch of stuff just in our solar system that seems out of the ordinary, a lot of the stuff seems to be some sort of message or riddle left for future civilizations to discover and interpret.
Of course there are many skeptics who just can't believe any of these anomalous objects throughout our system are real, attempts to get the powers at NASA to release untampered with pictures and other info is sometimes met with resistance or they play dumb and say a malfunction occurred with equipment. Funny how that equipment malfunctions at some weird times too.
Do some research into this stuff, look at it from all sides. A good starting point is Enterprise Mission which is the main site for Hoagland's research.
Hoagland has been right about many things in the past and he approaches the subject scientifically and is only asking the questions that need definitive answers, maybe there's nothing to the face on Mars, but the new info from NASA didn't prove it one way or the other since the new pics from MGS were put through filters before being released, why?
Personally I am somewhere in the middle, I think it is very possible that either another advanced civilization existed in our solar system at some point or an alien race or two have been able to travel through the great expanse of space. Or the anomolies may indeed be natural formations with no secrets laying beneath. I don't try and supply answers, I just know there are questions that need answered.
We're talking about a solar system that's 5 BILLION years old here, the possiblities of life on not only this planet but other bodies in the system during that time are pretty good if as current theories are starting to prove life is the norm rather than the exception where conditions exist to support it.
One more thing, over 75% of our missions to Mars have ended in failure, anyone else find this rather high? Considering that we've sent probes well outside our solar system now that have continued to operate well beyond their expected lifetimes, and we have such a dismal failure rate reaching Mars for some reason. Many of the failures have peculiar circumstances surrounding them as well.
But they were finished - near the apex of the Cheops pyramid is what is left of the smooth finishing (casement) stones - most were removed. It doesn't make sense that they would start at the top, and work down.
Also, I never said that all pyramids were done this way, but most certainly the larger ("newer"?) ones were. You do have a point why we don't see angular blocks, but maybe they were cut down, reshaped, and dressed for other purposes (they were really large stones, after all).
Finally, look for my other post where I talk about a book I have read postulating that the pyramids may have been made out of a poured concrete-like substance. Furthermore, for even more wackiness, I posted on the thread regarding "Coral Castle", a site in South Florida that is stupifying once you learn about it (look it up on Google, or find my post - it has a link)...
I love this "occult" archaeology and such - here are these huge megalithic constructions - just sitting there laughing at us - then you find out about one in your own "backyard" (the Coral Castle), find out it was built in the 20th century - and it is just as stupifying - it both excites and creates wonderment - I love it!
I support the EFF - do you?
Reason is the Path to God - Anon
Why do you suppose that looking at the stars isn't an accurate way of finding north. Sailors have been using the stars to navigate for centuries (and possibly more). Remember they were using true north, not magnetic. True north is defined by the point at which the axis of rotation meets the earth, meaning that using the stars is actually very accurate. Magnetic north, as any walker will know, does not always point to true north, the correction given on Ordanance Survey maps of the north of England give the correction at about 6 degrees. Quite large if you are navigating in fog using a compass over a large distance.
Using two stars in this way is very simple and elegant and would give a very accurate result.
Why must things be complex in order to be good or accurate?
Paul Leader
I've always thought that the name of the angel Moroni was missing a trailing 'c'.
Unlimited growth == Cancer.
What folks these days seem to forget (at least those outside the geek-scientist-astronomer-redundant cult) is that the heavens are in motion, just as the earth is. In fact, the whole frikkin' multi/uni-verse is in motion. Thanks to that wonderful tilt to the axis, our vision of the heavens changes by noticible amounts every two-three thousand years. Anybody trying to say "oh, these are aligned to such-and-such" need to take into account what the skies were like when these things were built. Four thousand years ago, Mizar *was* the pole star. There's none of this "get x-and-y aligned" crap involved. Sorry.
"Blow up your TV/Throw away your paper/
Move to the country/Build you a home"
io hymen hymnaee io
io hymen hymnaee
I asked about this on my message board and got:
e board.showMessage?topicID=573.topic (one long URL)
http://pub8.ezboard.com/fantfarmtheantfarmsmessag
"...The termites orient the mounds that way by sensing temperature differences in the parts of the mound heated by sunlight as opposed to those parts which are shaded. There is no evidence they can sense the Earth's magnetic field, but solar-based directions are close to magnetic ones, so it looks like they can."
Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
I'd image that the wobble of the Earth on its axis throughout time would introduce some sort of error in pointing to true North. The same wobble that causes such vast temperature variations ( read: Ice Age).
... w/out computer and alien intervention:
1) find a place with a view to the probable north without obstacles
2) build a exact even wall by using a spirit-level from (rough) east to west
3) now observe the heaven over the wall by night
3) observe the rise of a star and make a mark at its rising point on the wall
4) observe the descent of the same star and make a mark at its descent point on the wall
5) the centre between this two points is the exact north. You can measure it by using a rope.
So, all you need is:
1) some stones and clay for a wall
2) water and wood for the spirit-level
3) a rope
4) good eyes, no sleep
hmm, no aliens, no computer, no linux necessary
mfg uwe
Typically if you find two people doing the same thing in two disconnected places, it tends to beef up a theory.
Ever thought of becomming a journo. The two are not connected, I was just illustrating that the error between true and magnetic is quite significant.
Paul Leader
Comment removed based on user account deletion
What I find real silly were all the strange stores with magic, witchcraft and aliens to explain how the pyramids were built. After all it would take around 50 years to make one of these with modern equipment like Tractors and cutting lasers. How cold those primitive Egyptians do it?
:)
Only latter (1988 or so) when someone finally translated the inscriptions on the walls of one of the larger pyramids did it become clear. You see that story had been written by a prince who gave up his shot at becoming Pharaoh in order to be a scribe and an apprentice to the master architect.
It seams they did it with lots of ingenuity and by share force of numbers. As many as 150,000 on the project at some points. The sand of the desert was used the way we would use Hydraulics now. In short this was pure genius and not even a little odd.
So what of those fairytales? Some of them resurface every now and then. As for this alignment to the stars, Well the way I figure it; If you can pile a thousand rocks of 10 tons or more into a perfect pyramid that holds without cement figuring out which direction is north seams simple
--= Isn't it surprising how badly I spell ?
Some simple mathematics can tell you why this statement must be true. The Bible tells us that Jesus lived for 33 years on Earth, saving our souls from evil. If we take this as a baseline for the amount of time it takes for a race to be saved, then in the last 2000 years, Jesus has personally had the time to save at least 60 civilisations!
However, to be more realistic, if we assume that Jesus cannot travel faster than light, and that there is on average about 15-20 light years between each alien civilisation in need of saving, then we come up with the more realistic figure of 40 civilisations.
So starting from simple Biblical truths, we see that we are not alone in the Cosmos, and that Jesus's works extend throughout our galaxy!
But there are some serious scientists working on this, and they don't believe in aliens but in an unknown civilisation previous to the one of ancient egypt.
I saw an interesting (and serious) documentary on this a while ago (don't know if this has been posted before). I don't remember the details but here are some of the facts i do remember:
- Giza Pyramids in Egypt are aligned with Orion
- The big sphinx is WAY older than we thought. some geologist proved this.
- The Teotihuacan Pyramids (In SOUTH AMERICA)display about the same layout as the Giza Pyramids with regard to Orion's belt. (by the way these people didn't have the knowledge of the wheel, yet they are supposed to have build these pyramids)
- Various sculptures from different cultures that lived about 4.000 to 5.000 years ago in SOUTH AMERICA portray bearded people and black people. How did they get there? South Americans are genetically unable to have such beard-growth and arn't black either.
- Old maps show almost the exact shape of antarctica. But antarctica is covered with ice and we only know the shape of antarctica because of radar and other hi-tech stuff. So how did they do that?
- In China they olso have big old pyramids
Possible answers are:- There used to be a civilsation we know nothing about that existed BEFORE continent-drift began.
- Continent-drift started later then we think
All very interesting stuff and worth some seious research if u ask me. (sorry for my poor english)126 yards without rotation still leaves it facing north :)
I think, considering the distance between the North Pole and the equatorial regions of Egypt, 126 yards would fall well under the 3 arc minutes that she quoted as the 'margin of error'.
It seems to me that Spence took a look at the 'accepted' age of the pyramids, decided that the pyramid alignments were celestial in nature, and voila, here's a couple of stars which lined up 4500 years ago. Why did they choose Kochab and Mizar? I bet that a competent atronomer could come up with an alignment of two other stars which 'proves' that the pyramids are 35,000 years old.
This article has absolutely no 'proof' anywhere, and is just another in a long line of pyramid dating schemes. So far, the best dating of the monuments in the region comes from measuring the wind and rain erosion of the Sphinx, which I believe puts it at around the 10-12,000 year old range. Everything else boils down to archeologists trying to fit their new data around the theories they were taught in school.
So the celestial pole lay on a line between Kochab and Mizar in 2467 BC. And this is taken as evidence that the pyramids were built then???
Bet there are lots of more lines between bright stars that the celestial pole lay upon at some point in history. Why not use Kochab and, say, Alkaid instead, to get a date some 1000 years older? Or, for that matter, why not use Vega, one of the very brightest stars for a date around 13000 BC???
It seems to me that this is nothing more than a blatant attempt to give the standard IMO queationable dynastical date an astronomical varnish. Circular proof.
/Dervak
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Is anyone else bothered by the phrase "world's top scientists"? It conjurs up some phony sci-fi image of a bunch of people in white lab coats around a blackboard, or Brosnan's character on Mars Attacks. My pick of the worlds top scientists probably don't even know that the pyramids are aligned, and couldn't care less how it was accomplished.
Another pet peeve: the continual use of the generic term 'scientist'. Why can't they use the proper titles. Is it such a stretch to assume that the public would understand the term vulcanologists when refering to volcanos? To come back to topic, the story would be much better in my opinion if the story used the phrase: "the world't top archeologists". Although I would hazard to guess that even that phrase is less then true. Truth in meda what a concept!
Come to think of it, maybe it's more of a reflection on the average intelligence of a reporter, than a reflection on the intelligence of the public.
Atlas stands on the earth and carries the celestial sphere on his shoulders.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
Why would optical recognition software be necessary? just because its a current technology doesn't mean it is at all necessary to interstellar or planetary navigation. People manage to go into space and have no trouble getting home without the need for such software
It is possible that Alien Spacecraft were totally automated. Training pilots and astronauts is expensive. They might even have been using generational ships, where they would have to make sure that the knowledge was passed on from one pilot to another.
Software on the other hand is easy to copy once written, and computers can easily be designed to last for hundreds of years. Having clear and durable visual clues is a lot better than vague geological features such as rivers and mountains, because rivers change, and mountains are not very common in the flat areas that make good landing sites. Also the data doesn't need to be sent back to base. Simply build the pyramids in a known formation, and get the software to look for that.
Finding Egypt from space isn't hard when you know even a little bit about geography.
But they knew NOTHING about geography. We can look at the moon, and choose a landing site. The aliens didn't have this option. They didn't have good enough telescopes.
There were plenty of civilizations further to the equator than egypt - why them? There were civilizations along the Indus river very early - no pyramids, there were civilizations in south east asia very early - no pyramids.
I'm can speculate that they didn't find any suitable landing sites near the Indus river, or perhaps these civilisations were insuficiently organised to build pyramids. Maybe they only needed 2 landing sites.
That sort of reasoning didn't work too well for Ellie in Contact did it?
Is the figure I heard for the Africa the past five millennia. Thats about four times non-computerized astronomical accuracy.
P.S. For plate tectonics on a sphere, every small movement can be represented a rotation about some pole. A nearly linear moveoment is a far away pole while a twist is a local pole.
somebody watched 'stargate' a few too many times.
...dave
Think different? I'd be happy if most people would just think...
gascious alien.. euwwwwwwww. stinky.
what would happen if you inhaled it?
no
New Scientist also has an article about this with more info and pretty pictures.
I suggest you talk to a member of the Church of the Latter Day Saints about Jesus's other appearances on Earth.
They seem to believe that he appeared in the New World, this is documented by the gold plates the Joseph Smith found as directed by the angel Moroni.
And I'm not sure if Jesus would be constrained by the speed of light, either. But the rest of your reasoning is flawless.
Its interesting that people imagine aliens taking the form of the current level of technology (or the current level of sci-fi). It was angels before flying saucers and shit, and before then it was flying animals (reindeer, as in father christmas stories).
It would be interesting to see what form aliens are supposed to take in the future!
Just a thought...
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
Can we maybe deal with some facts folks? There is more that is unknown about the pyramids than is known...
(1) There are NO officially recognized (and by that I mean what the all-knowing scholars declare to be real) records by the Egyptians mentioning their construction of the pyramids. Not a one. Seems like something you might want to leave a note or two about, no? I mean, you put all that effort and time and everything else in them, whatever their purpose is (more on that later), but never bother to tell the world how proud you are of your accomplishments?
(2) No body has ever been found in a pyramid, so to say they were constructed as tombs for Egyptian kings is, while certainly one possibility, not supported by any evidence. Yes, its possible early graverobbers took them, but why? Why take a body? Sure, they might have snatched all the gold and whatever other goodies were left there, but why a body? Note that I'm not saying they WEREN'T tombs, simply that there really is no evidence to support this.
(3) As I think someone else wrote earlier, I'd be willing to bet my wife (ok, that's not saying much, so I'll bet my PocketPC, that's worth more!) that if you did celestial models over a wide period of time, you would find all sorts of star alignments with true north that we could theorize helped the Egyptians do it. Wouldn't exclusivity need to be a part of that observation for it to be valid? I mean, if I can only find one five-year period where two visible stars lined up with true north, that would be saying something, but if I find 100 such periods, the conclusion no longer seems valid, does it?
(4) Keep in mind that the alignment to true north is only ONE mystery of the pyramins, and not really even one of the more hard to explain. What else? Here's some that I am aware of:
a. The pyramids sit in the exact center of land masses of the planet. In other words: take all the land masses on the planet and scrunch them together. The pyramids are in the exact center. How was this possible since the Egyptians certainly didn't know about the rest of the world, e.g., what we now call the United States? Did they just get lucky? Or where the pyramids actually built when Pangea existed (when all the continents where theoretically one solid chunk), which would of course mean the Egyptians didn't build them? Or did they have some help? Or did they just simply know MUCH more than we think? If so, how?
b. The near perfect alignment of all the blocks used to construct the great pyramids (just referring to the three main ones here, not the smaller ones scattered about the plateu). We're not talking about some Egyptian architect eyeing it up saying "yeah, that looks about centered". We're talking about hundreds or even thousands of blocks with alignment accuracies so perfect that we can only determine their difference by use of lasers today. This is an Egyptian with one HELL of good eye, wouldn't you say?
Well, look, I'm not saying they were built by aliens. I'll also say I do believe aliens exist and that they probably have been here, but I'm also a scientist (of amatuer standing anyway!), so I'm not going to simply say "I don't have all the facts about this so it must be aliens". All I want to point out is that there are a great many anomolous things about the pyramids to consider. Maybe aliens WERE involved, maybe they weren't. I don't think it's a good idea to close one's mind either way.
On a semi-related topic: why is it that people can accept God and religion so easily, but aliens are completely beyond belief? Why can we believe Adam & Eve, Noah, Jesus and all that, but aliens helping an ancient civilization construct something (for whatever reason), is totally absurd?
(P.S. - If aliens WERE involved, I very much doubt they pyramids were navigational beacons. I imagine their purpose was something else, although I haven't the faintest idea what. But then again, I'm *STILL* not saying aliens were involved!)
If a pion (n-) collides with a proton in the woods & noone is there to hear it, does lamdba decay into the source pa
Just because it's old and there is no record doesn't automatically mean that people from that era were stupid. We assume that because we can send probes to the planets that we're all exponetially smarter than our ancestors.
Maybe it's time for Mattel to make "news break Barbie" which says "Science is hard."
In the THEORY, she gives an exact date that is within 5 years. However, this EXACT same alignment was there 26,000 years before that (and every 26,000 years). I'd guess it would be closer to 28,467 years ago.
Of course, it is just IMHO.
Of course, I'm just a hanging chad!
The fundamental method of science is real simple: come up with an idea, check what else has been said, and look for new evidence that tests your idea.
If you've forgotten that, please take a day to go to a local high school and ask for a lesson in the scientific method. This *exact* method is how research in quantum mechanics, nuclear fusion, space exlporation, and every other important field goes forward.
DM
Placement of the pyramids was not based upon true north. In Egyptian mythology, some of their gods resided within the belt of Orion. If you will notice, when looking at the great pyramids from above, you see that they are not in a straight line, but rather two line up and the smallest is a bit off center. Why this discrepancy?
If you superimpose the constellation of Orion over the pyramids, you will notice right away that with a little resizing, the apex of the pyramids fits on the stars located in the belt. What's more, the dimmest of the trio of stars sits at the point on the smallest of the three pyramids.
would be interesting if this scientist had taken this into account and attempted to trace back the date to when the contellation of Orion and more importantly the three stars in his belt pointed true north.
-- ghx
-- ghx