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Linus Talks About 2.4
Platinum Dragon writes: "ZDnet ran an e-mail-based
interview with Linus about that new kernel thingy. Linus replied to the fluff questions in typical self-mocking Linus fashion. " Check out original story on the release as well -- many people seem to have missed it, and keep submitting it.
How about addisng a filter that prevents the user from typing first post ?
Pardon? I had a beta of NT5 (Alpha and x86) from MSDN long before W2K was released. At the end, they just changed the name to Windows 2000. It was late, just like 2.4. Explain the difference between those two products and how the term vaporware fits them.
I'm going with the Wired definition. Apple produced Copland way back and a few people had it but then it never shipped. I count that as vaporware. And I also stand ready to call Mac OS X missing in action at the end of January.
Software developers routinely miss ship dates. The disappointing thing is when they don't even have the courtesy to update their estimates as the inevitable approaches. Journalists SHOULD call them on it. It's the only way you have to put pressure on the developers to create more realistic promises and to live up to them.
-Derek
That's not the definition of vaporware. Vaporware is stuff that's said to be and isn't. 2.4 has been downloadable in pre-releases for ages. It's very difficult to have open source vaporware -- and much easier to spot. 2.4 wasn't it.
Anybody else remember the good ol days when not only was it a big deal that a 'major' news site noted Linux, but just as cool would have been the /. link in the middle of the page? I remember a quickies one time linking to stories on 'major' news sites who had linked back to slashdot - it was a big deal cause our favorite hole-in-the-wall website was getting noticed. Esp after Taco had made his editorial on NS's source code release, and then it happened what, a week later? Ah yes, the good ol grass roots days...
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If Bill Gates had a nickel for every time Windows crashed...
Oh yea. Committies are the way to go. Linux has gotten this far having a committee, so we should implement one now. Oh, and I'm sure when Bill G makes a solid decision, he retracts it if the committee isnt unanimous on the decision. Larry E is also noted for being a major team player, correct?
Sorry, the sarcasm key was stuck...
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If Bill Gates had a nickel for every time Windows crashed...
You don't read Kernel Traffic very often do you?
While true I myself (a non coder) can say Linus is God, you'll find that the other Linux gods (AC, TT, AA, etc) are quick to argue if they don't like the way things are done.
Their opinions matter, fucking BIG COMPANIES can go screw. If you can understand kernel internals you get an opinion that Linus will respect even if he choses not too implement. "Interested parties" is another word for groupies more concerned with buzzwords then code.
Aren't I all piss and vinegar tonight?
kashani
- Why is the ninja... so deadly?
Enh.
"[...] other major commercial projects [...]" That's where I think you went off track. This isn't a major commercial project. It's not a democracy. It's Linus's baby, plain and simple. Everyone's been throwing their help into it... Everyone's been benefiting. But in the end, the 'Linu' in 'GNU/Linux' comes from 'Linus'. Should RedHat fall off the planet and Caldera vanish, Linux will still be there.
At the end of the day, he was the right man with the right project at the right time, but just because he decided to give his project to the world doesn't mean everyone else automatically has a say in what's officially Linux.
-kapella
Yeah. I like to read articles that talk about Linus, but they blew a great chance to ask him some really interesting questions and wasted it on something that makes a Larry King love-in interview look like hard-core reporting. I've seen more interesting news-items on The Daily Show.
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seumas.com
If any publication considers themselve to be the mitigating factor in Linus' release dates, they need to check their ego, methinks.
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seumas.com
It also didn't qualify in any mannre whatsoever as vaporware either, and you know it.
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seumas.com
Maybe this appeared on Slashdot when I wasn't looking, but if not then I guess you are the one looking like an imbecile for actually browsing Wired on your own. Blech.
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seumas.com
No OS is user friendly. A *shell* can be user friendly (and there a couple for Linux that are) but a shell isn't the OS. Other than this, your post is good.
Vaporware is a rumor of software or upgrade that never makes it. Beta or spot releases are not Vaporware.
Wired never did the right thing and apologize, they just congratulate themselves for being a good motivator.
What is with this 5 minute stories on wired? They are nothing but re-capped press releases. I should get bunch of college kids and recap everyones press releases.
Opps, Wired beat me too it...
"The function of the press in society is to inform, but its role in society is to make money." -A. J. Liebling, The Press, 1961
Then I wonder what phantom-OS I've been running on my laptop for the last three quarters of a year.
Vaporware is something that doesn't exist, sometimes (okay, my paranoia says 'most of the time' in the case of one specific company) it is only a marketing concept without a single bit of code.
When talking about an open-source project in which the source is open all the way through the development traject, you can hardly talk about vaporware. So it had a -test tag attached to its version number.. I've had it running quite well since the 2.3.99pre releases and although much was changed in the implementation, the only thing I've noticed is a few bugs disappearing and sometimes a slight speed increase.
Erwin
What Linus said was essentially just that for the next few months developers should concentrate on making sure that any bugs that come up in 2.4 get fixed, do more testing and fixing, etc.
The wording "I don't even want to plan 2.5.x or 3.0 at this point yet." may scare those who take that to mean "I don't have any plans for future", of course. It could, of course, mean that Linus doesn't want to write the roadmap for the next release until he's taken a break and seen that 2.4 is stable and works well. Not just on 10000 developer workstations, but on a couple of million other computers, too.
Now, as Linus stated in the interview, he's not making press releases or alike. That's for companies to do. He's not talking with soothing voice, treating the IT managers like babies scared of dark who need mommy and papa to check that there are no grues under the bed. He's talking like a developer who's got one project released and can take a short break not needing to think about work for a few days.
I would of course also hope that there aren't all that many "IT manager morons" in important positions.
You're in luck, there are already action figures for Linux, Woz, maddog, Larry Wall, and others. Nitrozac's way ahead of you.
--
how to invest, a novice's guide
Dude, if you're 2.4, I think that qualifies as a kernel.
Ba DUM dum
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
Joined by "High-Kick Tove"!
Now with TURBO KARATE ACTION!!
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"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
>In the interview Linus sounds like a stuck up little junior high prick
Thats your preception alone.. To me the reporter comes off a bit umm disintrested.. In the end my impression is ZD just asigned a random reporter and he asked some kiss up questions and expected some kiss up replys.. Linus dosn't play that...
>talking back to the interviewer, and having a massive ego.
You get asked the same 3 questions by 1,000 droolly reporters and see if you don't a. Start having a massive ego, b. Don't start talking back...
It's accually remarkable how Linus hasn't let his ego explode...
> This really makes Linus look back,
(He means "look bad"... I'm a lot worse than this guy when it comes to this sort of thing...)
In my view Linus is in a space where it dosn't matter what he says...
If he says "My ship is full of eels" some will find something insightful and prase worthy and others will dream up some mental illness and attribute the comment to it..
I don't actually exist.
This being the benifit of having more than one compiler and nither compiler made by the kernel author...
[The scary part however is the main compiler people use.. GCC.. is effectively in the hands of RedHat...]
Are there any decompilers for Linux that might be used to catch this sort of thing?
I don't actually exist.
>oh yea cause there are so many out there. The only two C compilers are gcc and borland.
Accually there are sevral... Some Dos shareware.. and three forks of GCC (that I am aware of)..
Then there is the BSD C compiler...
But focusing only on Unix compilers.. Get an account on a Sun Sparc or some other liccensed Unix system and run a clean GCC compile on that... then do it again as a cross compile...
The real issue for me isn't "We could" yeah yeah yeah... will we... Most likely no...
The source code being available means we know Linus (and his people) didn't insert a trojen.. Right?
Well no we don't becouse as a rule we don't review the code...
However we can trust that Linus probably didn't becouse he couldn't cover it up if someone bothered to look.
But if he ever got cocky... There are people who try to rob the store in broud daylight AFTER showing ID...
What am I getting at?
Well in the past we thought it was a reasonable assmption that a commertal pacage didn't contain a back door.. we know better now... It's just to easy to cover up...
We do know that it's reasonably likely there are no trojens in Linux... not 100%... only 99.44% sure... the rest is that little uncertenly that RMS may have inserted a trojen from the start.. or Sun slipped something into Solarus to infect GCC... or that RedHat is shipping infected binarys...
Or a massive conspericy between AT&T, RedHat, Sun, IBM, the FSF, the NIS, the Illuminati, NSI, CmdrTacos GF, and my pet dog...
There are things you could do to be absolutly safe..
Well accually no... not even that.. becouse if you really want to be paranoid.. we could be in a matrix.. I mean a trojen in the laws of phisics isn't something you can decompile... Enter "The Matrix"
Anyway... it's a lot less likely...
But if Intel wanted to they could just infect the CPU with something like User ID...
Linus is right.. nothing earth shattering... just booring dull zzzzzz....
I don't actually exist.
It's always a great sign when someone can joke around about their work. It shows dedication, committment, and they ENJOY the job. How many of us enjoy our jobs?
-- DuckWing
I know people who used to work for MS, and put in long hours testing NT2K, only to have thier hard effort recieve a vapourware award for much the same reasons - ie the final release wasn't out yet. Years of work labeled "vapour". I bet you think that's fair, just because it's not Linux.
um.. no. if they have public betas that show they have progressed toward the goal they have stated, then i dont believe it would be ok for people to label that as vapour. just like when they posted the story about ms getting the 5 billion dollar lawsuit placed against them i didnt say: "hey i dont agree with it but since its microsoft i'll let it slide". just because i prefer linux doesnt mean i think special rules apply. for the record i used nt for along time before switching to linux. i found 3.51 to be very stable. after ms made the move to 4.0 it got alot worse so i swtiched to linux. but i digress.
these people aren't the press. they are more like jerry springer or some other talk show.
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
-- john
lets say that i make a list of who i consider to be a wife beater.
1)an editor for wired
2)redifines terms to make article seme sensationalistic
does that mean that i can publically slander the editors of wired because they fit my personal defination of what i consider a wife beater to be?
the wired article clearly showed that they had nothing better to do but bash people who are working hard on a project, many for free, that has been realized for many months.
if the wired editors were real journalists they would be more responsible. alas most of the real journalists are falling the way side because sensationalism is more important that facts/news.
use LaTeX? want an online reference manager that
-- john
He needs to be free from monetary constraints in order to realize his true potential, the way Stallman has.
:-)
You should have thought of that before he got a mortgage and a couple of kids. Not cheap.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
That isn't one of them. :-)
Female Prison Rape in NY
If you're running Windows, clicking on that link would crash your machine. Patch is available at Windows Update
.sigs are useless; it doesn't protect you from imposters.
The posts probably were moderated. Watch the nightly news, or read your locally published, distantly owned rag, you'll see how well real content fares. falala.
-- An image is worth about 2.5E4 characters.
Too bad the site doesn't really say how much this costs, even in round numbers. Anyone know?
I dunno about Linus, but a Stephen Hawkings action figure would kick some serious ass.
You read waaaaaay too deep into my post there, buddy. I never made any such comments about Linux ruling or Windows sucking, nor did I say I revered Linus as an all-knowing god. I merely said (or suggested) that the questions were condescending and almost malicious, in my opinion.
I read the first question as, "Is your OS half as good as your competitors'?" Come on. This is like asking Pepsi if their soft drinks taste "somewhat as good" than Coke's. What do you expect them to say? "No, our drinks suck?"
Personally, I think this interview was very poorly done. The first question is really two questions, and only the second question is relevant. The first question should have been omitted completely.
I will agree with you that, "What advantages does Linux have over competitors?" is a valid question, but not, "Why would anybody use your cruddy OS when they can use Windows 2000 or another UNIX?" which is basically what the interview said.
Maybe he doesn't want to make Wired's vaporware list again? But seriously, I don't see why a hobby project has to abide by the same rules as big corporations. And his statement also stops people from pestering him about what he plans for 2.5 or 3.0, so maybe it's just a lie ...
EagerEyes.org: Visualization and Visual Communication
But seriously, maybe he wrote some more on that subject, but they just edited it out. Or maybe he realised that you cannot go into great depths in a short article, and just left it at saying "it's safe, but explaining why would be too long an boring".
EagerEyes.org: Visualization and Visual Communication
I am saying that it is too boring to most people who are just a bit interested in stuff like release notes, but are not administrating big corporate networks (and even to some of those, unfortunately ...). I don't think ZDNet has quite the same kind of audience this site here, a kernel-dev mailing list, or bugtraq have. Otherwise they wouldn't talk about parties, but itemize the changes between 2.2.18 and 2.4.0 ...
EagerEyes.org: Visualization and Visual Communication
Their FAQ mentions $250 and up for the first figure, and $15 per head after that. They don't do the bodies, but they will mount it on any 12" action figure out there.
You forgot to make it clear that you're joking/trolling. Right? Right???
My Karma: ran over your Dogma
StrawberryFrog
Ever tried compiling GCC with anything but an older version of GCC?
Rod Taylor
Not overnight, and neither in a large enough quantity to justify last year's sky high valuations. People have to remember that this is an open system, so no company can get a Microsoft-like lock-in on the market. Products will have to be sold just barely above cost, or else a new company just springs up, selling basically the same product for a slightly lower price. In the Open Source world, ubiquity unfortunately does not automatically translate to financial success. Linux is a good OS for the consumer, but unfortunately not for the investor...
Say no to software patents.
Uh, have you not seen the number of USB devices already running under Linux?
I've already managed to get my Zip 250 USB, Intel USB webcam and HP USB scanner working under Redhat 7.0 with the 2.2.X kernel that shipped (with USB backport). Iomega themselves are currently working on a Linux version of Ioware, the device support in many cases is already in the kernel.
Perhaps it's not just Linus who should keep his yap shut.
ChodaBoy
- The preceding statement is the product of a deranged mind and the sole property of the voices in my head.
I was looking at the Interview at ZDNet and was hoping on some technical dope.. didn't find any. This may be a slightly dated interview but has some technical stuff. It was done in August.. when Linus said "Now it's been close to a year and a half and it's going to be another two months at least." Torvalds unplugged
Prakash
Prakash
FreeOS.com - The resource center for free operating systems.
I've already downloaded and compiled the 2.4 kernel. unfortunately, I forgot to include the correct support file at boot time, preventing *any* kernel from booting. On the plus side, several packages relating to several core shared libraries were screwed anyway. Now I'm goin to start over the right way with a fresh Mandrake installation... Name: ADB PC Age: 5mos OS reinstallations: 20-30 sanity: questionable- -----
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Perversely greped and groped by PowerPenguin
I think it could be good to pause and catch ones breath. Part of me wants to know what goodies are planned for the future, (and can see the argument above, from my big-company-IT-planning-"strategy" background) and part of me says - let Linus and gang do this any way they want. It's FREE, I can't complain.
Evan - needs to hit preview before submitting
Well, what would you expect from the people who live in "the land of a million mosquitoes" ?
:-)
:-(
Indifference is the only way to go when the sun's no longer visible thanks to a bunch of stinging pests (no, not MS lawyers...).
Seriously, though, being a dane who's traveled a lot in the rest of scandinavia, I'll have to say that you're absolutely right
BTW, and on topic, I've compiled the kernel, but I'm not using it (on 2.4.0-test12 at the moment). This is due to the fact that I can't get PPPoATM to work with the 2.4.0
Anyone up for a beer with Linus one of these days ?
We're sysadmins, to us, data is protocol overhead.
The problem in Copenhagen isn't drunken swedes (they prefer Elsinore...), it's the closer-to-passed-out-than-should-be-possible norwegians - sorry guys...
We're sysadmins, to us, data is protocol overhead.
Well, If you feel that you can do better, you're most welcome to try :)
Linus was a millionaire at one point from all of the linux startup companies giving him stocks, but now the stock isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
Seriously though, I think that Linux stocks kinda got the shaft. Many people put a lot of money into tech stocks that had no business plan and when they went belly up, people thought that all tech stocks were the same. Companies like Redhat and VALinux do have business plans and probably will make money in the future, just not overnight.
Matt Newell
Did I mention that I love /. ?
People shape laws. Not the other way around.
IBM, SUN, MS, Oracle... the story is a little different for them. Linux chases the new hardware coming out whereas the "big boys" know what they want to build next.
I/O Error G-17: Aborting Installation
I suspect that you have too much time on your hands.
Why not learn a new craft such as cross-stitch or boatmaking, or perhaps join your local school governors' association? I certainly would do in your position.
Give it some thought.
-- flossie
http telnet
flossie
Write now. Defend liberty
That's funny. As far as Linux goes, who cares what the number is as long as it is bigger than the last one. A company that charges for software would use a ver number change like this to charge upgrade fees and get some more press. Jason
According to an interview I read somewhere, the next big thing that will make the kernel 3.0 worthy is NUMA (Non-Uniform Memory Archetectur).
Yes, they wrote 85% of the kernel in those two weeks.
They didn't need to eat or sleep (or deficate).
Their only motivation?
The Wired vaporware list.
--
Soma: because a gramme is better than a damn.
Bravo!
--
Soma: because a gramme is better than a damn.
A man that can confuse and disorient hundreds daily with just his sig...
Amazing!
--
Soma: because a gramme is better than a damn.
Howbout an Alan Cox action figure?
ALAN COX!
Now with rapid-action KEYBOARD and BEARD!
:)
--
Soma: because a gramme is better than a damn.
Don't forget MS Office: ...7, 97, 2000, 10
--
Soma: because a gramme is better than a damn.
And Watcom C, Miracle C, Visual C(++), lcc, AT&T C, egcs, EiC, DJGPP, and probably a LOT more that I've missed.
:-)
Check out yahoo...
>anyone can, but if you dont know C then your just lookign at a bunch of greek symbols.
If you were writing in Greek I'd feel the same way. Us English people have it easy: The kernel is already half written in our language. We want it more simple?
It took me about 6 months to learn C, I'm sure anyone with more motivation could have done it in 2 months, without previous computer experience. It isn't that hard.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
For the girls, there'd be Dream Date Linus in a tuxedo with his pet penguin, Tux, on a leash.
This sounds like a sure-fire-hit shoujo manga. Then comes the anime series, and all the merchandising that goes with it. Action figures are just the beginning!
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WWW.TETSUJIN.ORG
- - - -
The real Tetsujin 28 is a giant robot.
Uhm... You realize that... No, never mind. Forget I said anything.
Some people don't use GNU/Linux because "Windows sucks" and not because "it's more stable" but because it is free software for free people. As I see it, this should also be the primary reason for anyone to use GNU/Linux; after all, we have seen what proprietary software has given us so far and what chains.NET it will force us in the future.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
There's an old saying that says "A camel was a horse designed by a committee".
A journey of a thousand miles starts with a brutal anal raping at airport security
I'll say this to save someone else the trouble:
Just switch to Windows.
Better keep those pain killers around though.
A journey of a thousand miles starts with a brutal anal raping at airport security
The plan is to let 2.4 get rock stable before branching off 2.5. That's all. Relax
A journey of a thousand miles starts with a brutal anal raping at airport security
Where can I get more info on FB in QT and KDE? I'm having a little problem understanding you got KDE compiled with just qt-em when KDE requires X includes. Maybe you just mean Konqy embedded? Or you have X installed but don't start it?
Is 2.2.4 QT released already or are you on a CVS version?
Anyway, I'd certainly like to play around with qt-em on the desktop but I'm a bit lost on where to look.
A journey of a thousand miles starts with a brutal anal raping at airport security
A third _necessary_ criteria for something to be vaporware is that there's no corroborated evidence for the product.
Developers have had pre-release 2.4s for ages. (and I don't mean the things called 'pre-release', they are simply the final stages before release, there are dozens of iterations before actual release)
Ipso facto 2.4 was never vaporware, it was simply delayed.
FP.
-- Real Men Don't Use Porn. -- Morality In Media Billboards
Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
Well, I'm Norwegian, and I was about to post a note saying the same thing.... :-) I have never seen a really upset finn, it's "shit does happen, so there is no reason to be upset about it". :-)
Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
Sorry to say it but that interview was kinda boring.
I think that RMS evens it all out. Talk about being a real asshole. He came out and flamed me for admitting to using XEmacs.. he thought that I was my father (who is also named Dan Flickinger). My dad had some legendary flame war with the guy back when i was a kid. Now I have grown up with that name curse in my household, I must carry on the tradition when my father passes on.
My deep hatred of RMS coupled with the likableness of Linus balances everything out... aaahh. Indiference.
Ontopic: Built 2.4 last night. BIG speed increase, and finally good USB support. Thank you Linus.
--
One future, two choices. Oppose them or let them destroy us.
You are nuts. Quite nuts.
;-)
;-)
Happy?
But look at it this way. You can always start work on patches for the 2.4.1 release if you want.
Never argue with a fool. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Never argue with a fool. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
-Xenith
THAT's what I'm aiming for. The ability to be 'just' the technical guy some day. I'm in no real hurry, and I'm convinced it will happen, so I'm not worrying.
This is the interesting bit for me.
How is it going to happen I wonder...
No doubt it will be due to the open nature of the Linux kernel and the ruthless anarchy that results...
yay.
may we all be like bumble bees and
dance the dance of life and joy...
!#
Or more accurately, a Stephen Hawking action figure would drive slowly into some serious ass. AIn't no kickin' goin' on.
AFAIK, the change that justified moving the linux version number to 2.0 was that it was porting to multiple architectures (i.e., not just i386).
Ok, instead of moderating this down, I'm just saying it:
Quit karma-whoring by linking to that article! Or, quit mod'ing up a post just 'cause someone links to it!
Dont feel bad about the cpu setting it took me a week to figure out why 2.4.0-test10 wouldnt boot, seems i did the same thing left it on a P3 when im a P2.
"So the first thing init does (or your replace init) is start the GUI, then the rest of the scripts run in graphical format (ie, they display icons and status bars instead of printing text)."
Mandrake 7.2 does exactly what you just described.
You've made some very good points. However, I have a few additions. I can see that people are threatened because their livelihood could be in jeopardy. Maybe they're feeling the competetive crunch from too many MCSE's. Either way, you can float down the river, you can fight your way upstream, or you can swim to the bank and dry off. My point here is that you can learn Linux, you can fight Linux, or you can drop out of the race.
I have a few MS certifications, but I also became interested in Linux some time back. I've added Linux to my repertoire of knowledge. These angry MCSEs could do the same instead of whining. Sure, the learning curve is much steeper, but hey, the reward is great. I enjoy the Linux crowd much more because they enjoy computers. While some of the MCSE crowd enjoys what they do, many are in it for the money. This could be why they're threatened. Linux guys enjoy what they do so much that they can't help but improve, while the MCSE types find a comfort zone and stagnate.
It is easy to tell who the real geeks are in the workplace. They're the ones who enjoy chatting about technology, linux, OS's, gaming, programming, scripting, etc... They're the ones who do their job because it's their way of life. There is nothing more annoying to me now than an MCSE who has no idea how to fdisk, complains about his job, and can't wait to get home to watch some boring ass football game. I was once a MS junkie and now I'm a Linux junkie. I can still admin an NT server and now I can make a linux box fit in to an NT network. Why don't these MCSE's get it. The tides are turning, it's time to learn some new things.
Bah, this is nothing more than a fluff piece. Please, tell me something I don't already know.
In the past there used to be a long kernel wishlist for thing people wanted in the linux kernel. I don't want anything in particular but always like to look at what neat things people want, will be implementing, etc. Can anyone find such a list for 2.5 anywhere?(only for 2.1)
I know a program that is vapourware: "Benders Get Rick Quick Tools v1.0"
..and I haven't got a clue what it's about
That is vapourware for sure, because it's my program, and I havent written it yet.
I wish I would, but I am too lazy.
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Gee... I'm so sorry that you didn't get to write "FP!!! Micros0ft 0wnz j00!! h4w!!". Go back to www.msn.com, ass.
--The space between my ears was intentionally left blank--
So you do admit that Linus should shut up!
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
...but we should have told him to shut up and let 2.4 speak for itself. Do not pass judgment on this until the kernel has run the gamut of tests. As for the claim of USB support, how many manufacturers of USB hardware are committed to providing Linux 2.4 drivers? Not many, I'm guessing, if not none at all. Perhaps a default USB mouse driver will be included with every 2.4 distro, but the rest of the hardware will be vapor.
"Ancillary does not mean you get to rule the world." --U.S. Circuit Judge Harry Edwards, speaking to the FCC's lawyer
Hey..I'm really proud to know that Linus seems to read /. then and when.
/. ... *grins*
Keep care you firstposters, one day you might not be able to compile a kernel on your machine again..just because you pissed off Linus on
Everything I want has too high version numbers. Makes me depressed. Linux kernel 2.x. Debian 2.x. zsh 3.x. FreeBSD 4.x.. Damn..
I surely hope that *you* are joking that you hope this is a joke
;)
it's really quite obvious that it is not!!
I don't see how Linus could ever accept an interview from ZDnet. That company does a worse job of reporting than Timmy the Fourth Grader's "I love Technology Newsletter". ZDnet is just a front to Microsoft and uses its magazines to push its own agenda. If I wanted to see biased reporting mixed with terrible writing, I would go back to public high school.
"Homo sum: humani nil a me alienum puto"
(I am a man: nothing human is alien to me)
My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
"Homo sum: humani nil a me alienum puto"
(I am a man: nothing human is alien to me)
My only political goal is to see to it that no political party achieves its goals.
Scarry, just what we need: a bunch of geeks playing with open source paper dolls. If yoou look carefully you can see Linus' nipple.
This sig intentionally left blank.
The moral of the story is that unless you built your own processor, built your own hardware, built your own compiler from scratch, and read the source code and understood it completely, you're open to attack.
That, and you'd better be sure that the NSA didn't insert some subtle flaws in your Physics and Engineering textbooks, that would cause you to unintentionally design their back doors into your processor :)
- cicadia
Living better through chemicals
This really, really needs to stop. Alright?
Linus at Linux Today on the gcc-2.96 compiler is much more interesting than this ZDNet story.
"My mother works for Microsoft now. A whole other cult."
Of course, that supposes you're compiling the compiler with an untrusted binary (else, the trojan code would be found in the source code; that means the binary wasn't compiled from the same source you're reading.) However, if you could somehow trust the binary, you could compile your source with the trusted binary, and then trust what you just compiled.
Or, just compile one compiler with another. That sort of trojan wouldn't store excerpts of code from *all* compilers out there, would it? (If you think so, *WATCH OUT* THE CIA IS AFTER YOU, THERE'S A CAMERA INSIDE YOUR SCREEN!!)
Join the NFSNET. Our prime goal is making little numbers out of big ones. http://www.nfsnet.org/
Do you realy think that Linus, or any person for that matter, would spend 14 hours a day working on a project if not relying on the work on that project to pay the bills? I wouldn't.
Off course Linus' situation is different - he only has Linux as a personal project (well, to our knowlage), other than me for instance - I only feel content if I've got a whole line of projects lined up for me..
Linux has to be worked on in real programmers spare time - otherwise it isn't what it is. (nobody understood that part, did they?)
Wired has become as lame as any Ziff-Davis corporate type publication. I used to love that magazine, it was THE shit back in 1995. But now it's just another corporate spin machine that favors the advertisers in the "story" content, the business model that made ZD the Borg of computer publishing.
Even though 2.4.0 was late, it was NEVER vaporware. It was out there for you to get months ago if you wanted it. It's simply not possible for an open source project like the Kernel to BE vaporware.
Take `Doze for example. I don't see Wired or ZD calling Whistler vaporware, even though 95% of everyone can't get ahold of it to see it, much less run it. And you know it will be released late, or full of bugs. Probably both.
=== The price of freedom is eternal vigilance
But on the other hand, 2.4 was originally supposed to be released quite some time ago. While it's obviously not vaporware afterall, Wired could certainly be forgiven for questioning its late arrival.
Hi, I'm a pretentious cock who will make some gay comment about ignoring AC posts here.
I noticed that too. Maybe he is just trying to frighten Microsoft, they used to love the number 3. (Threes a charm?)
I read Ken Thompson's article a fair while ago, it certainly frightened me.
You're certainly right at least as far as the compiler is concerned.
A seriously rich company requiring real security would have to write it's own basic compiler (and then compile the appropriate compiler source).
Your comments completely ignore the interaction between distros and many dynamics of the environment that Linux is developed in.
You think Debian develops in some pristine void without input from faster releasing distros like Redhat and Mandrake? You need to think again. The faster releasing distros push features that people want. People want those features released on a timely basis (2 year Debian ain't doing it) so that they can use them. They want official technical organizations and support staff that stand behind those releases (mostly so they can tell someone in the front office that the software that runs their company is supported).
it's safe, but explaining why would be too long an boring".
Safe is boring? Safe code is boring? Did you really just say that here? With all the security news and stuff you find security to be a boring matter?
Or, these days, you could just download a new compiler off the internet.
/* BACK DOOR CODE HERE */
oh yea cause there are so many out there. The only two C compilers are gcc and borland.
but everybody can look at the linux source code
anyone can, but if you dont know C then your just lookign at a bunch of greek symbols. No one comments in
Going as far back as Red Hat 7.0, did it not seem like everyone was getting irritable about the absence of this or that from the stable branch? USB got backported to 2.2 not too long ago, and almost immediately after Wired announced 2.4 as vapour, the first 2.4 kernels started showing up.
Do you think there's a shortage of conspiracy theorists in the Linux community? In even a less paranoid eye, it does seem a BIT suspicious. Maybe it is getting somewhat political and personal -- who knows?
"Watch these suckers jump when I get root." - l33t j03
when your posting anonymously, what do yoiu expect but the loozer who adds the pop-up link from tartarus? wait, you posted anonymously... ;/
~If they were all fired up about making a statement with some meaning, why didn't they add their name?!~
.sig under construction
Well, I'm sure he does. Bill Gates isn't a despot - most of his company is owned by others, he has to listen to them. These are not feudal times.
Larry E is also noted for being a major team player, correct?
Well, the same goes for him, you know? He is under the same constraints.
Why are you so hostile anyway? You would think I had suggested that Linus be shot. He will always have input. The very manner of your reply suggests to me that the title of my original post is quite correct! ;)
--Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The
-- Eat your greens or I'll hit you!
-- Eat your greens or I'll hit you!
actually, the original poster seems to have a point. after all, wired's first paragraph seems to credit *them* with the release (huh??). "Perhaps the Wired News Vaporware List is a good motivator, because two weeks after winning a high spot on the list, the Linux 2.4 kernel has been released." obviously this is some sort of joke, but those folks decided to make it instead of retracting their earlier comments.
your mom and dad must be a lot smarter than mine . . .
I hadn't thought of the flamewar this way. People see this as a zero-sum game where the success of Linux is equivalent to the failure of Windows and vice-versa.
FYI, newer versions of modprobe handle 2.4's new directory structure correctly. I believe it's listed in the CHANGES file.
Okay, odd. My 2.4test kernel doesn't have a CHANGES file (but then, I'm not using 2.4 yet -- LVM 0.9, which is really unstable, was added late in the production cycle; a definite bad move, that. The fixed version will hopefully be added in 2.4.1 -- I'm not using it 'till then). In any event, it's documented. Somewhere.
The more people who are involved in making a decision, the longer it takes to make that decision. Designing/coding/maintaining by committee just simply doesn't work... what you need instead is a team of people with similar goals/motivations who have different but overlapping skill sets making a concerted effort to reach those goals and managed by someone with a bird's eye view of where the whole thing is going.
It's also worth mentioning that if Linus stands in the way of something, people have a tendency to route around him. It's his kernel, so he gets final say on what goes into it before it gets put up on ftp.kernel.org, but if you bother to take a look the source for the kernels shipped by various Linux distributions you'll notice that they have added in a lot of stuff that Linus rejected. A prime example would be SuSE's inclusion of reiserfs into their kernel. Or Debian including pcmcia-cs into theirs. Or RedHat using the software RAID patches. And so on....
And there's the power of free software for ya.
Popping out a sham release every 18 months like Microsoft, just to keep your name fresh in people's mind and earning a few extra bucks is fine for some, but it has nothing to do with an actual programming cycle.
Wired is to the technical industry what Cosmo and Family Circle are to the financial market.
---
seumas.com
Eh? Why would a PHB be worried about Linus? For that matter why would a PHB be concerned with the future beyond the next 30/60/90 plan?
I guess I don't understand how a PHB would be able to develop concern over a "kernel" or even comprehend the concept of a "kernel" developer comment.
I think it more likely that a PHB would be sold on a distribution (and for lack of a better example) like RH4.2 Then he was sold on 5.2... then 6.2... and maybe just maybe on 7.0
Just tell him that you will be running 7.2 "soon" and not to worry about the 2.4 since it easier to keep up with the distribution numbers.
I expect that all vendors will move to the Sun-esque single rev numbers like 7, 8, 9, 10 etc... which is perfect for PHB's. You can hold up fingers to show what you are running. They like that.
So, the only thing "fluffy" is, perhaps, you calling someone concerned with kernel development comments (from a leader of kernel development) a PHB.
:)
http://fudge.org
Their lives aren't, but their livelihoods are. There are many people who only know MS stuff, they don't care about open source, no central control, yada yada yada... It's the same kind of analogy when the automotive manufacturers brought in robots to assemble cars. All the workers thought they were going to be replaced, that they wouldn't be able to work anymore. Some of the people did adapt perfectly and are happier now. Some probably didn't do so well. There is always Fear when change is imminent.
> I was surprised and a bit worried when I read Linus saying that about 3.0.
But what he was saying was the he did NOT have plans for a 2.5 or 3.0 yet. That says to me that either there will be a 2.5 or perhaps there will be such significant changes to warrant a 3.0. But, as of now, he hasn't even started thinking about it.
When Sun went from Solaris 2.6 to Solaris 7, one of their reasons was that they never ever had any plans to make anything that would be called Solaris 3, and the "2." was therefore just redundant. Linus, OTOH, has not yet ruled out significant changes for a 3.0.
Wait until you see what is discussed for a 3.0 release (if any) before you start worrying too much.
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
I agree that software version numbering has been really screwed up recently. But I like Linux kernel numbering. It makes sense! Take x.y.z for example. If y is even, it's a stable kernel. If it's odd, it's a development kernel.
...6, 7, 8, 2000.
...4, 5, 7, 8, 2000.
...3, 4, 7, 8, 2000.
...2.0-2.6, 7, 8.
Linux jumped from the 1.3 dev kernel to 2.0 because there was a large conceptual difference. Since then it went 2.1->2.2 & 2.3->2.4. If 2.5 has some revolutionary new concepts, Linus might decide to call it 3.0 when it gets stable. If it's mostly just an evolutionary step-up from 2.4, he'll probably call the stable release 2.6.
Here are examples of some screwed up software versioning:
NT's first release was 3.1, then 3.5x, 4.0 (+many service packs), then 2000.
Windows: 1, 2, 3.x, 95x, 98, 98SE, Me.
Word:
Excel:
Access: 1, 2, 7, 8, 2000.
PowerPoint:
AutoCAD: 1.0-1.4, 2.0-2.6, 9-14, 2000, 16.
Solaris:
I bet there are 100s - maybe even 1000s - of Linux hackers that would buy a Linus action figure!
LinuxMall, Linux Central, Cheap Bytes or some other Linux retailer could get them made & sell them. They all sell stuffed Tux dolls already.
Or maybe a co-op buy like the Webplayer Co-op could work.
No, we're discussing something far more important to the people involved: for those who had thought they had made a safe decision sometime in the last 5 - 10 years to devote their careers to using and learning about Microsoft software, the astonishing rise in popularity of Linux can be incredibly threatening. I don't recall much from the Advocacy HOWTO myself (although I did read it once upon a time), but if it doesn't already, it should probably include some information on the psychology of people who feel that their entire way of life may be threatened. The ZDNet Talkback should be proof enough that this is what some people are feeling.
The problem with Linux, from the point of view of an unreconstructed Windows devotee, is not just that it's a competing software system, but that it represents so many unfamiliar ideas: open source software, lack of strong central control by one big Corporation You Can Trust (TM), and just in general a mode of existence that is like antimatter to Windows' matter, or vice versa. Again, the ZDNet talkback provides ample evidence of the misapprehensions that so many people labor under, most of which arise from having absolutely no understanding of the basic concepts which make Linux useful and successful.
Until Linux either utterly destroys Windows, or settles into a stable market share so that it's no longer perceived as such a threat, this will continue to be one of the most religious of all software wars.
See:
- The Slashdot story
- The Doy Story
In short: No, not all of KDE is available framebuffer only. Large portions are being ported, and Konqueror (which is what you want) already has been (those links point to the announcements). fbKDE, I believe is what the project is called (and I think I'm wrong, nut if you're *really* interested, check in the CVS).--
Evan
"$30 for the One True Ring. $10 each additional ring!" -- JRR "Bob" Tolkien
I downloaded it, put the lpp patch in (you know, that "pretty booting" thing that was posted a few days ago), compiled it and installed it on my RH7 box. I am VERY impressed! I have been using linux for a long time, but typically stay away from development kernel, so this is my first exposure to 2.4.0. It's top notch stuff.
Now I wish I actually had USB peripherals to test with... I typically have stayed away from buying them because of linux...
The OS is good for the investor. The investors are going to just have to invest in something other than the software package itself. Investing in a product that can be obtained in an unrestricted model for free is a silly concept to begin with. However, the secondary commercial linux interests could and very likely will make a very worthwhile investment, such as support, administration, and custom programming. Support for the operating system itself will boost the secondary investments.
-Restil
Play with my webcams and lights here
This is not one of them.
Linus uses his own brand of humor to take the interviewer to task for following a formulaic press release format. "With questions like that, how are you ever going to write an interesting article?", he laments. He's right. This has already been done. But nevertheless, Linus does give in a bit eventually but skips many of the details. "Where it matters is obviously the technology, and there's a lot of updates. Somebody has made a list of what changed since 2.2.x, but as I haven't used a 2.2.x kernel in a long time, I forget myself."
So why is Linus being so standoffish? There's another telling quote. "I didn't make a press release. I made something quotable instead, and I'll leave the real press releases to the companies and other interested parties. Maybe we'll even see a journalist that makes a story that isn't based on a press-release, but on his or her own digging and ruminations." Linus has already chosen to avoid the press release - and he stands his ground here. Furthermore, he throws down the gauntlet and challenges writers to write an article that isn't just a press release re-hash.
A tech trade article. Based on actual research. Wouldn't that be something?
really? Cool. I havn't looked at it.
How we know is more important than what we know.
it's a shame that the minimum download to actually see this marvel is one gig! Surely there is a "base" that they can distribute without including every RPM ever written.
How we know is more important than what we know.
My girlfriend knew about the new release before I did...good think I've got her hooked on debian.
-- An image is worth about 2.5E4 characters.
Um, no offence, but the criteria for the vapourware awards are quite simple:
1) Was the product eagerly anticipated during the past year
2) did it fail to appear during that year.
2.4 kernel meets them. Admittedly the original article could have said that a release seemed immmanent at the end of 2000, but it is *not* "talking out of your ass"
My Karma: ran over your Dogma
StrawberryFrog
People want to start doing wild and crazy things immediately, when the reality is that for a few months we just need to take it calm and make sure that everything is in its place. I don't even want to plan 2.5.x or 3.0 at this point yet.
I understand this to mean that he doesn't yet intend to plan about the specifics about the next release. He prefers to let things settle down a bit, rather than rushing towards the next target immediately. Don't worry, there will be a next release, it will just take a while before that 2.5 branch will be started.
Say no to software patents.
I just thought I would add that if the kernel ever did fork in a major, major way, there isn't a problem. If somebody did make a big change to a subsystem that lead to a much better Linux, applying it to the main branch is a cut-and-paste away. And thanks to the GPL, it's all legal.
Besides (and correct me if I'm wrong), wouldn't things like ucLinux be considered forks? Or to a lesser extent, the bad RAM or ReiserFS patches?
Is this post not nifty? Sluggy Freelance. Worshi
Never mind Linus, his wife is probably in MUCH better shape (and already has the skills necessary to kick butt :)
The Linux enthusiast Web site Slashdot.org
for years no one believed my claims that slashdot was part of the linux conspiracy, but now ZDNet, the most reliable IT news service on earth have confirmed my suspicions!
As a fellow finn, the answer is clear. Thats how most of us are. Selfmocking yet friendly and so cudly and loveable! ;)
--
yush
Here's some things I'd like to see :
Bluetooth support.
More security patches (maybe a new menu to specify your own security policy, and have that configure your firewall etc?)
Built-in pacman game.
Recode of some old unit.
Tool for selecting modules from online repository.
Moving support for really old stuff into module-only land. See prev proposal.
And a lot of things I haven't thought of yet.. Anyone got more ideas?
Stop the brainwash
I never would have expected this, but I actually feel somewhat depressed over the release of 2.4! That's right, depressed! (of course, it might also have something to do with the fact that I'm on some pretty wicked pain killers due to my recent oral surgery :)
Anyway, like I was saying... there's just something not right. After waiting all this time, climbing over and through dozens and dozens of 'unstable' releases, dealing with uncounted issues to fix- and now *poof* it's done. There are no unstable releases left. It's just *there*. Sure, there are the -ac builds already, but those are even stable. None of the changes seem to affect me. I'm almost to the point now where I want to break something just so I have something to do!
Am I nuts? Someone just tell me I'm nuts, and I'll go away.
Thanks for the idea for my first the bench :)
Well, you can generally assume that the next few releases will be working on whatever is marked (DEVELOPMENT) in the kernel.
That being:
More USB devices
More multimedia devices
Firewire
DevFS
RiserFS (soon to be incorporated into the kernel)
HFS(+)
NTFS stuff
etc.
--
Soma: because a gramme is better than a damn.
Whilst all this was going on, my then employer was reluctant to invest serious money in either quality training or equipment - even as late as the end of 1998 test equipment was still 486 machines with 16MB of RAM. I was a resource too good to lose, yet I wasn't given the opportunity to learn new skills except in my own time outside work, which I dedicated to Linux, of course. When the inevitable collapse of our supplier occurred, I had no recognised other skills to fall back on.
Unfortunatly Linux take up in the UK is still pretty slim, except in the ISP market. The PHBs are driven too much by the power of marketing, and not by the substance of the product. (The same is also affecting our political system). I've decided to get out of IT altogether, and have some other positions in the pipeline.
Name: Tom Seiler
Email: tommmmmm79@hotmail.com
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Occupation: webmaster
Linus, instead of wasting your time trying to improve your toy operating system why don't you write some applications?
Your operating system is basically worthless without programs to run. Of course I realize if there actually were programs to run on Linux then it might crash.
It is not the operating system that is the point of computing, it is the programs. Too bad the Linux fools don't realize that.
Wow, that's a troll that would put the first-posters here on Slashdot to shame :)
Friends don't let friends use multiple inheritance.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Nevertheless, the advantage of open source in terms of "source code cleanliness" (i.e. no gotchas or backdoors) is that you don't have to put your trust in one individual or corporation. Nobody knows the MS Windows source code except MS, but everybody can look at the linux source code, and it only takes one whistleblower saying "look at this, this is NOT right!" to bring everybody's attention to a problem.
It doesn't really matter what he says about this... 2.4 going final is one of the biggest things that can happen for the community, and I'm just happy to download and compile! Thanks Linus, for an excellent alternative to Winblows.
--The space between my ears was intentionally left blank--
Don't blame the OS for it's lack of hardware support. Blame hardware manufacturers that don't release the device specifications. I remember Linux when it had about as much hardware support at QNX had last year. It's gotten a lot better, because people have written drivers based in the harware specs, or have taken the time to reverse-engineer closed-spec devices with a high enough demand for support. I'm not arguing against your entire point (and in fact, I agree with most of what you said), I'm just pointing out a common fallacy in judgement that plagues the Free OS world in general.
This is not a Fugazi
If it wasn't for mindcraft/microsoft 2.4 would not be as great and scalable as it is now. I heard 2.4 is as smooth as butter even on single processor machines. I just downloaded it and plan to install it soon to find out.
:-)
The only reason its smooth as butter is the previous version sucked when it came to i/o and disk buffering. Mindcraft and Microsoft pointed the fault and pissed off alot of Linus's followers and even Linus himself was in denial.
He decided to rewrite 2.4 and put a bold and brand new i/o, disk buffering, and networking code that originally were all orignally not planned.
The result is that we have a very fast high end unix that can theoritically scale to 16 processors! The previous version had trouble with only 4 and also with more then 1 nic card. All mission critical serers have several nic cards and mindcraft/microsoft showed that 2.2 was only engineered with the dekstop in mind. This critism showed Linus that his pc o/s needed major server enchancments.
Well I look forward to the next mindcraft test which they promised to redo.
Linus is also more aware of Solaris and AIX as he wants linux to compete agasin't them. He has plenty of critism today form outside the Linux community and from private firms who benchmark Linux.
If you look at Linus's response, he's actually inviting journalists to do research, not just hit up famous people for quotes and pass that off as stories.
First, you assume that Linus' work and decisions are not subjected to criticism. Read the kernel mailing list (or at least Kernel Traffic), and you'll see that people are constantly butting heads with Linus, to everyone's benefit.
Second, you assume that Linux is "supposed to be a democracy". Since when? It started as Linus' project, and the way things tend to work in an open development community, whoever starts the project generally retains the lead and the power to rule by fiat if necessary. If you don't like it, fork.
Which brings us to your (not sequentially) third assumption, which is that such a system will inevitably lead to major forks. This is not the case, especially when the project lead is as respected (and with good reason) as Linus, or when the project is as identified with its leader as Linux is with Linus. It would *not* be a healthy decision for a Linux distributor to fork the kernel, and everyone knows it, and nobody really wants to anyway.
I'd rather see Wired interview him, after having called 2.4 'vaporware' only a week ago. But of course, you'll never see a follow-up from them. It's easier to just trash something and never revisit your statement to admit you were talking out of your ass (like so many technical columnists do).
---
seumas.com
it almost sounds from that last comment he made ("I don't even want to plan 2.5.x or 3.0 at this point yet.") that he intends to make the next stable release be 3.0 instead of 2.6.
#define F(x) int main(){printf(#x,10,#x);}
F(#define F(x) int main(){printf(#x,10,#x);}%cF(%s))
- Dear PHB,
Now if they buy this, you're also going to have to make sure they understand that "guiding the code" as they need it does NOT mean putting tripe in for a new whistly-bell they like, but providing real technical leadership for general purpose improvements, but that's another battle.Regarding your concern about the "lack of future plans" for the linux kernel, you should understand you have 2 options. First, you can bring in proprietary vendors, ask them what their future plans are, pick the one that most closely matches where you want our company to go, commit to it and pray fervently that the vendor does what they say they will. Or, you can support open source participation by your employees, perhaps even hire a few more, and encourage, even direct, them to get involved and submit code that allows linux to support your own future plans. The first option is politically safe, since you transfer all blame for the risk to the vendor, but technically risky since their plans may not be realized the way we need. The second option is politically risky, since it requires you to take responsibility for the technical future of our company, but technically safe because we have the code and can make it do exactly what we need. Moreover, if others outside our company agree with our assesment of the future, they will provide free labor to help us achieve our goals.
Also understand that right now, most of our competition is likely to be taking the first option. If we choose the second option before any of our competitors do, our voice; e.g. our code; will be submitted before theirs increasing the likelihood of our guiding the technology towards our goals. Participating in open source development will transform our information organization from an off-the-shelf support organization to a driving force behind achieving our corporate objectives.
Your devoted and loyal subject^W employee.
What else does the PHB want in Linux?
This is a trajedy of wording. Ever other operating system is considered the whole system---Mac, Windows, also Sun, HP, and all them other Unix systems I've only read about---they all consider the operating system the hardware access, drivers, graphical user interface, all the way up to your basic utilities and applications.
Yet part of us in the free software world insist on calling the operating system "Linux". So when we get a new version of Linux, what do we have? Improvements in Bash? themes in KDE? better installation?
No, we just get a better kernal (kernel...kernal...I don know).
So just let that PHB know that, actually there are lots of plans for the next operating system (look at the new versions of GNOME, KDE, Apache, Red Hat, Debian, etc., and their "The Road Ahead" announcements). Its just that they have little to do with Linux. Or they have everything to do with Linux. I guess it depends what you mean by "Linux"...
So don't blame the PHB. Blame whoever came up with this absurd naming scheme in the first place.
...check out the "talkback." It degenerated into a MS vs. Linux flamewar even faster than usual for a ZDNet talkback. And, as someone pointed out to me on LinuxToday, these posts are supposedly moderated; the worst trolls could have been excised.
I found the anti-Linux/Linus shots even more vicious than usual, in between shots from people who haven't read the Advocacy HOWTO (guilty). I swear, there are about five reasonable, well thought-out posts, total. It's just unbelievable; you'd think these people's lives were threatened by Linux or something. I mean, shit, it's only a kernel with an OS built around it, it's not as if we're discussing the Middle East or something.
Also if you get the chance, take a look at 2.4.0; I've been running it since the night it appeared (probably one of the first people to get and compile it), and it's been smooth sailing. 'Course, now that a wider audience is poking at it, more bugs and problems will be smoked out, but the last few tests and the prerelease seemed pretty darn stable. Worth a look if you're up for resetting your precious uptime:)
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
Throwing away the opportunity to moderate...
Yes, people do look up to Linus - but IMHO he's a better "role model" than some movie or sports personality. He's managed to co-ordinate an industry-changing project. Linus isn't perfect, he admits that himself, and some people do get a bit excited sometimes, but that's hardly his fault. I'm not aware of him having any problems accepting valid criticism.
Also, Linux isn't a democracy - it's a meritocracy. The people who are listened to and respected are those who have earned it - they've made a contribution to the project.
If Linux development was a democracy (as we typically understand the word), we'd have a situation where there are a lot of vocal people, with very little work being done. I'm not a kernel developer, and my knowledge pales into insignificance compared with some of those who work on the kernel. However, I am a keen Linux advocate and Unix user. How would people like me making suggestions such as "I think the kernel should be rewritten to be a microkernel, in an object oriented lanuage like Java"? I can spout buzzwords as well as the next person, but it doesn't mean my voice should carry equal weight to someone like Linus or Alan who really understand what they're talking about.
I say maintain the meritocracy. Big companies such as Red Hat, and organisations like Debian and LUGs help steer the development of Linux by coding, not discussing things in a committee. Better that way, no?
Face it, "Home and Garden" is probably more interesting.
-- Linus Torvalds
(8-DCS)
Well I had this really funny idea. Let's go download Qt-Embedded and see if KDE will compile (it does!).. so I download the 14 meg and start the compile. 20 minutes later I bother to read through the requirements. Pretty basic.. all I need is a linux kernel with a framebuffer. oh crap. I have a look at my kernel (2.2.18.. or something) and the framebuffer support is lame. VESA or matrox.. hello. So just at a laugh, I go and grab the 2.4.0 release and what do I find? YES! There are framebuffer drivers for my NVIDIA Riva TNT2! You know it. So I forget all about Qt-Embedded, do a make config; make bzlilo; make modules; make modules_install and reboot. It hangs. I try a couple more recompiles with various options turned on and off. Finally I slap myself in the head and say "Duh! This is my Celeron box, not my PIII" and quickly change the processor option. It works, everything works. Then I spend a few minutes fixing up all my scripts. Modules arn't in the same place anymore (2.4.0 has sperate directories for kernel and pcmcia modules which modprobe just doesn't know what to do with.. shouldn't make modules_install set this up?) and that kerneld starting up can just piss off, I'm using kmod! So finally I boot up in my new framebuffer console and have a play with fbset. Turns out Qt-Embedded is just beautiful. It can run in any old framebuffer mode and starts up in under a second (I tried to time it, too fast). Just for a laugh I did a boot init=/usr/src/qt-2.2.4/examples/launcher/start_dem o to see how fast a "qt embedded desktop" would boot. Ok, enough rambling.. linux 2.4.0 rox!
How we know is more important than what we know.
actually I did try to run it. It just compiled and then I got busy with 2.4.0. From what I've read here I'd say I wasn't too successful and it probably wouldn't run without X. However I would like to see it and the qt-em demo is very encouraging. I've read a lot of stuff (in relation to gtk+) about "replacing X" and apparently most people just can't see why you would want to. I can think of a number of reasons, but my biggest complaint is setup. Getting X to work is a bitch. Framebuffer in the kernel is the way to go and with video card companies starting to offer drivers it is definitely the way to go. I think it's plausible to write graphical versions of the linux startup scripts. So the first thing init does (or your replace init) is start the GUI, then the rest of the scripts run in graphical format (ie, they display icons and status bars instead of printing text). Qt-Embedded will run from a read only filesystem so you can even do your fsck in graphics mode. Perhaps you can even launch some applications while that's going on (but you can't save your work until the filesystem is remounted read/write). You could then go about making the entire distribution GUI bound. So you can change your tcp/ip settings with a "network manager" and point and click to mount filesystems. This is what people are talking about when they say "Linux isn't ready for the desktop." Not a lack of applications, but a lack of respect for the GUI based users. If you have to start up a command line (or subject the user to a text mode) then you've failed.
How we know is more important than what we know.
I was surprised and a bit worried when I read Linus saying that about 3.0. Why is it that nearly every software product in the last half-decade has a version sequence like this:
x.0
x.1
x.2
x.3
(x+1).0
(x+1).1
(x+1).5
(x+2).0
(x+3).0
(x+4).0
Folks, I remember running the 1.x kernel series. The 2.x introduced some major changes, and we were thrilled to get it. But I haven't heard what new things could require (or deserve) a jump to 3.x.
I'm just seriously looking forward to 2.4.1. :-)
You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem. (Edwards' Law)
Linus should have his own action-figure line
I have to take the role of the Slashdot troll [usually moderated up, but still a vapid and stupid response] and say if you want this particular feature, you'll have to do it yourself .
You'll need a series of Linus mug shots to subm,it to have the figure made, but thee should be easily acquired from any recent version of Wired, Linux Magazine, etc.
More like drive quickly into some serious ass. When Hawking was visiting Caltech, he had a reputation for running students down with his cart. The thing is pretty fast.
There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.
No offense, but the question "Why should anybody use Linux" is legit. This isn't meant to be flamebait, however, some members of the linux community give the impression that the only reason people should use linux is because Linux Torvalds is an all knowing, all caring benevolent god, and Bill Gates is evil incarnate. If you want to advocate linux, stick to discussing linux's benefits, such as its stability, and openess of code/standards. Be willing to compromise, for some people, windows is going to be the better choice of opperating system, and some people will want to stick with apple, or BeOS. Admit that linux does have its faults, its not the most user-friendly operating system, and it does have a problem supporting some hardware. Alienating vast segments of the population by being rude and condescending will not convince more people to use linux. Saying that you should use linux because "windows sucks, linux rules" is not really a valid argument, no matter what you may think.
Oh well, just my $.02
I love this
/. knows its safe but until our moms know its safe, then they're just trusting a beer guzzling programmer. I think this is where we need to use the code we're given to show our moms and dads how to read it so they to can know its safe.
you can rest safe in the knowledge that there are no backdoors.
OK You can rest prety safe. I use it and I don't have any fears of this-- but isnt this a bit microsoftish to just pass it off as saying yea its safe. You know its safe, I know its safe, every single person on
Another thing is that if people want to do something different and he stands in the way, then there is more likely to be a split. I mean, I don't see other major commercial projects with one single man at the helm, do you? It should be a committee of interested parties, all the main organisations that use Linux, who decide what happens to it. Big companies like Red Hat and Debian would have a place, along with representatives from the LUGS.
I suppose what I am trying to say, in my stupid way, is that I thought Linux was supposed to be a democracy? These moves would make sense, and I think they are pretty much inevitable. Don't you agree? ;-)
--Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The
Check out original story on the release as well -- many people seem to have missed it, and keep submitting it.
It must be because Slashdot has only posted this story once - everyone knows real stories are duplicated at least once, if not more.
"don't fall into the fallacy of believing that Perl can solve social problems. Maybe Perl 6 can, but that's a ways off"
Why should anybody use Linux?
Why don't you just quit?
Why don't you get back to work?
That's basically it. No wonder he hates the press.
Kids could learn important spacial and social skills
hahahaha, learning social skills from a coder, that's funny.
Personally, I think we should have 1-900-LINUSEX where you can have phone sex with a real Linus impersonator!
Mmmm, I'm thinking of something that's 2.4, but it's not my kernel.
Ohhhh, let me unroll your tarball, big boy.
The possibilities (and cash flow) would be endless...
Wired already *has* run a follow-up article about the 2.4 kernel. Which makes you look like an imbecile.
Wired Article
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Damn Linus and his self mocking humor to hell. Doesn't he realize that mocking major figures in the geek community is a job for trolls?
Why does he have to be so damned friendly and likable? Why god, why?
Why can't he be a self important blowhard like ESR, Bruce Perens or (best of all) Theo De Raadt?
Doesn't he realize that he's making it impossible to mock him?
I can't believe the nerve of that fucker.
--Shoeboy
*shrug* Call me weird, but I'm just impressed overall. Linus Torvalds is a genuine human being and his qualities haven't diminished.
Ken Thompson wrote an important article about this, back in 1984 (wow, that brings back memories), titled Reflections on Trusting Trust where he discussed his famous compiler-trojan which propagated itself even when the user had full access to the source code. The way it worked is the compiler had some code in it that recognized when it was compiling the compiler's own source. When it did, it inserted a bit of code which compiled the source not as a clean compiler but as another copy of the trojan. The user could read the sourcecode all he wanted, but he couldn't get around having to trust the compiler. The thrust of Thompson's article was that you have to put some trust in someone or something along the line.
The moral of the story is that unless you built your own processor, built your own hardware, built your own compiler from scratch, and read the source code and understood it completely, you're open to attack. Open-source itself is no magic bullet, and it's time the zealots figured that out.
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I'm serious. Linus is being slowed down by having to work only part-time on Linux, devoting all those hours to Transmeta doing the heavy lifting for the internal translation work in the Crusoe. He needs to be free from monetary constraints in order to realize his true potential, the way Stallman has.
The options are to start up a trust fund, which would never work and wouldn't be consistent with Linus's libertarian politics. The second best option would be to start manufacturing and selling his own action-figure lineup. For the boys, there'd be Combat Linus with his dashing Finnish looks and two front-loading high-caliber automatic gcc's under each arm. For the girls, there'd be Dream Date Linus in a tuxedo with his pet penguin, Tux, on a leash. Kids could learn important spacial and social skills while also learning about the open-source and free-software movements. And geeks love toys, so adults would buy them too.
But most importantly, the proceeds would go to support Linus full-time. Think how much faster 2.4.0 could've come out if Linus could've devoted 14 hours per day to it. Just think about it.
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