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Jobs Plays It Frank
Siqnal 11 writes "Wired has a feature about Jobs meeting with resellers at the expo, and how honest he was with them. To quote the article 'Jobs gave frank and honest answers to tough questions in this time of trouble for the company and its partners, they said. "
My point exactly. Who cares if someone says fuck? Would it be newsworthy if he beat his wife? Maybe, but saying fuck? Nah.
--
Don't lead me into temptation... I can find it myself.
We have these all over Australia, they're called Apple Stores... I just assumed you guys would have them too... Shops full of candy-apple colours and funky translucent things... Every time I waslk past that store I swear to myself "My next pc will be an apple" but each time I do buy a new pc, general price/power wins out over looks and photoshop, and I get the PC...
of course I'd sell my left testicle for a 750mhz cube with the cinema display... Seriously... Anybody want a testicle?
--Gfunk
Send lawyers, guns, and money!
Too bad this honest CEO must be ruined by his obession with one-button mice. /sarcasm>
If you disagree then it must be overrated, redundant or trolling.
"Of course, yeast is technically an animal..."
No. Yeast are fungus. Unicellular fungus. As different from animals as plants are.
I'm not sure what you're saying, here. Apple builds-in a feature that otherwise has to be added at the expense of $399 and one PCI slot, and the user should only consider it to be worth $30 because it's built-in? Are you saying that they should compare a $1570 10/100 PC with a $1600 10/100/1000 Mac and buy the best one regardless of ethernet and then add gigabit ethernet to the PC themselves for $30?
... what's your point?
I mean
To me, being able to buy a 10/100/1000 machine with AirPort, FireWire, 2 USB busses, easy-access case, four empty PCI slots, and a good AGP graphics adapter with both analog and digital outputs for $1600 is a steal. It's got an amp built in as well that hooks up to some really nice Harmon-Kardon $59 speakers. It will also power and feed USB to an Apple display (LCD or CRT) through the video card, and has three empty hard drive bays and one empty removable bay. And a CD-RW built-in. And a nice keyboard and an optical mouse. And it will take 1.5 GB of RAM. Sweet. CPU's are also upgradeable. And it comes with iMovie, iTunes, and CD-RW writing software included. Probably a free Mac OS X upgrade, too.
Or, you could get a $1200 PC and add 10/100/1000 to it for $400 and forgoe the FireWire, AirPort, optical mouse, etc. Personally, I like it that all this shit just shows up, ready-to-use, in each new PowerMac I get.
I think I speak for everyone when I tell you to go fuck yourself, you fucking miserable fuckwad :^)
Eric, who was once told by a crewmate "You like that word, don't you?"
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
up until now, mastering DVDs (that can play on consumer-level players) has been prohibitivly expensive. now Apple has made this available to a huge market for a measly $3500. i personally know many people at advertising agencies and training firms that would love to put their material on DVD as opposed to VHS, but have been holding off until the price comes out of the stratosphere.
DVD mastering is expensive now, but it isn't *that* expensive. Agencies like the one I work in can well afford the $20k it would take to setup a basic mastering station. Hell, the whole idea is to bill the clients so if it generates revenue it doesn't matter if it costs $40k.
I think right now the lack of demand by clients (*everyone* has a VHS deck and a lot of have Beta decks) -- you can master DVDs, but nobody wants them. Plus it has a one-off element to it; we have a gang of 6 Beta decks that can be turned into a dupe farm and generate a lot of 2 minute reels with little intervention. Doing DVDs one at a time for even a dozen count would get tedious..
I agree fully though that the ability to simply make DVDs on the desktop is a pretty cool thing. I just wonder if Apple will be able to keep it an exclusive for long.
One bit o' info about the DVD mastering process- with AltiVec the compression time needed is something like 1/10th that of other processors. I think the spec was reduced from 25 times the video length to 2 times the video length. Of course, the 25 times spec was probably for a 386 ;).
Finally, a good use of the G4!
Vote monkeys into Congress. They are cheaper and more trustworthy.
Doesn't Apple use resource forks, making formatting pretty much useless? I thought their block structure was held in the same way unix is..
Lowmag.net
> I would much rather see someone be honest and open about who they are rather than have them to kowtow to what is "publicly acceptable".
How do you know he didn't put that front on to get exactly the reaction you have? He had to know that it would get out.
-Jason-
This is not news. The rest of the article was news - it actually highlighted some truly interesting points from the conference. But this? Oh, no, Steve said bad words... I'm gonna tell his mommy. Get over it people. That was not, nor should it continue to be the focus.
One Can Never Own Enough Musical Instruments...
No, you'd still have to bitch at Apple. Apple sells to retailers at higher prices than most PC manufacturers and then undercuts them at the Apple Store. The retailers are left trying to sell a product (that they're not allowed to support) on even thinner margins than normal. I've seen stories at macintouch that explain this (although I can't find them through the search feature).
However, the biggest problem with computers is that as "big box" items (or at least, they're conceived as such), customers think that there's hundreds of dollars of profit built into the price and suppliers seem to think that computers are sold based on competitive advantage.
We had a Dell rep come in once who offered us pen-knives and T-shirts and told us how wonderful, reliable, excellent, etc. Dell products are to which we said "sure, but we'd personally go bankrupt recommending them over other boxes that actually have a markup." The guy was stunned.
If your business model is based on volume, (in actual fact, you make more on ringing up that $40 game than you do the box it runs on) don't expect just because the guy who's selling at the store is forced to wear a suit or uniform, that he actually cares about sitting the customer down, getting him or her herbal tea, and chatting ad nauseam about the benefits of L2 cache vs L1 cache or whatever. In fact, the most successful salespeople there are totally ignorant of computers, they just go "want fast? Buy the P4!" - cause the computer is mostly sold on enthusiasm and how much the salesman smiles and nods his head - cause for him, there's a big margin, and the clueless customer doesn't know any better (otherwise he'd be putting his dual Athlon machine together himself) it's supposedly a win-win situation. I couldn't live with myself anymore, so I quit.
Apple should get out of store sales ALTOGETHER and just send salespeople into graphic design stores and elementary schools every now and then, with web presence and demo days.
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
I hear a LOT more profanity than that every day at work.
On a related note, most computers here still run Windows 95.
Fuck.
- A.P.
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* CmdrTaco is an idiot.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
One quote from Jobs that I find interesting:
buying a car is no longer the worst purchasing experience. Buying a computer is now number one.
This statement isn't true for me (nor most geeks), but I suspect it is probably true for many. Undoubtedly, bad salespeople have a lot to do with this, but equally to blame are uninformed consumers.
Consider the process most people go through in buying a new car. For most, it's a process measured in weeks and months. They read Consumer Reports, they shop around for different makes/models, they ask people who own similar cars what they're experiences are. When it comes time to buy, they visit several dealerships, not hesitating to drive out of town in many cases.
Now, buying a computer. There are some who go to great lengths to get informed, but the vast majority don't. They see an add for a cheap HP in the Sunday paper. Maybe they call their nephew "who knows about computers" to get his opinion. But usually, the first words out of their mouth when they meet the salesman are "Is this a good machine?"
My point is that people still rely too much on computer salesmen for their buying information. Most people don't trust car salesmen any farther than they can throw them: why should it be any different with computer salesmen?
In the end, this will all probably work itself out anyway. Customer service is a commodity, driven by supply and demand like everything else. If customers aren't happy with the service they're getting, they'll take their business elsewhere. Retailers will respond in kind.
This is the best (fucking) idea I've seen in weeks. Crossover cables are one of those vestiges of a day when you needed a Ph.D. to set up a LAN - and they just make no sense in the day of auto-sensing ethernet cards. Get rid of 'em! That helps us move to the day when more stuff connects via ethernet, which makes impeccable sense.
sulli
RTFJ.
The first superdrive was Apple's 2MB Floppy
Jobs was talking about first time buyers' experiences. These superstores can't afford to hire anyone with sufficient knowledge because there's not enough money in retail to keep them. I challenge you to walk up to the first rep you see in CompUSA and ask them the difference between a Mac and a PC and post the response you get. Jobs is the CEO of a company whose products are being terribly represented in the largest retail market in the field. I'd swear too.
(I know I'm quoting this sentence out of context, but I thought I'd comment on it.)
I've heard some clueless sales-people making equally uninformed statements about Windows machines.
I suspect that the employee had been told that 16 MB (or whatever) was the minimum requirement for Win95 and thought that the customer had 486 MB of memory.Here's another:
This customer actually signed up for MSN. I suppose he believed that switching ISPs was as easy as switching long-distance carriers.It's news because it's such an unusual event. Jobs and Apple generally don't do a lot of face to face dialog with their vendors. And when was the last time you read anything about Jobs admitting that he fucked up? Apple usually cruises along with it's head in the sand, ignoring the simplest requests from it's users and vendors. The second round of I-mac releases (the first time they released the Imac in multiple colors) was a disaster for them, vendor relations wise. They wanted to sell the machines to retailers in packs, one of each color to a purchase unit. It was great for Apple becuase they got to move a lot of units and shitty for the vendors because the had to slash prices on yellow Imacs that no one wanted. I'm glad to see that Apple is at least talking to its dealers instead of creating some dumb plan that works solely to Apple's advantage and telling the resellers to take it or leave it.
Chris
that PowerMac is looking awfully good right now isnt it?(and yes that IS the same drive)
--aiee
Examine a 68k-era Macintosh. Note that the video connector is DB15 female, just like a standard AUI connector. And if you think nobody could be stupid enough to plug a monitor into an Ethernet card, well, I've seen it done (and had to drive out and fix it, since the thing wouldn't boot). Hence the funky little AAUI connector.
Heh, that must be one of those chains that neither has commission sales (e.g. I make x per hour whether I help you or not) or it's one of those "if you so much as TOUCH a customer from my department, I'll beat you to death in the stockroom with a VCR after work" scenarios.
I was only ever allowed to help customers outside my department ONCE, and that was because they spoke French only, and noone in that department spoke French at all.
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
--
Apple's stock is in the tank.
<P>So are alot of other high tech companies. Plus, Wall Street isn't known for smarts.
<P><I>Preliminary indications are that Apple users are not particularly interested in the complexity and sluggishness of Apple's latest operating system.</I>
<P>Incorrect. Some are scared, just as many people are scared of the unknown. It's FUD, but they'll get through it.
<P><I>Processor speed is stuck at 500 MHz.</I>
<P>dual 533 is shipping this month, 667's and 733's in March.
<P><I>Alternative architectures and software are killing Apple on features, price, and performance.</I>
<P>Companies and platforms compete. Apple is competing better now, and will compete even better this year and next than it has years ago.
<P><I>There are legions of corporations and individuals who have been disrespected by Apple--from the BeOS community to the Apple clone industry, all of whom comprise a formidable enemies list.</I>
<P>Hmmm... might you be on that list? Did Apple hurt your little feelings? That would explain your use of errors.
<P><I>The main provider of Apple's microprocessor, Motorola, is hurting and hopes to leave the desktop processor business.</I>
<P>Motorola as a whole is hurting, yes.
<P><I>Today Motorola announced 2500 layoffs.</I>
<P>How do layoffs at a cell phone manufacturing plant have anything to do with Apple and the PowerPC?
<P><I>The most reasonable solution would be for Apple to open up. Open up its hardware specs and software so that where now exists little more than a corporate cult, there might exist a vibrant autonomous industry of developers, hackers, and alternative hardware vendors.</I>
<P>Apple is in transition. Darwin, the public source umbrella of Apple's software projects includes the Core OS of Mac OS X. Guess what. You can port Darwin to any PowerPC ABI architecture you want and you'll be able to run Mac OS X on it. Most of all, Apple has to protect itself first. After all, it is a business.
I think all of you are being too harsh about his language. He used "fuck" as an adjective, a verb and an adverb. I congratulate him on the wide use of his limited vocabulary.
That buying a Mac at CompUSA and Sears et al. is an exercise in futility and frustration. If you go to a car dealership, they don't steer you away from the model you ask for to show you another brand and try to bullshit you while they do it.
;-) I hardly let a trip to the store go by where I don't get some hapless sales person to try and sell me a computer. It's fun watching them try to steer me away from their iMacs and iBooks over to the PC aisle, especially when they realize I'm not going there. Then again, I'm cruel and heartless in large department stores, and I'm more clueful than the average customer. The best enjoyment of all comes when they finally wake up and realize that ..
Hey, that's half the fun of shopping at Sears.
73 de N5VB (ex-KD5BIV) AR SK
a hell-hole Canadian version of those big box stores
You wouldn't happen to be referring to Future Shop, would you?
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No. It's an example of the kind of "innovation" that's going to save apple.
Almost as innovative as selling dual-cpu machines with an SMP-less OS.
+++++
+++++
The harder you look the less you see. That's what we're up against.
But it's damn hard, cause people are like: "But it won't run Windows" and you suddenly realise you could just unload a PC on these people and sell two more in the time it takes to get over the sales resistance on the Mac and actually make a living.
..
Well, it may be fine for you as a salesperson, but what does the customer do about the typical "taillight warranty" on PC's? At least with a Mac, Apple makes the OS and hardware, and you get reasonable support for both.
Oh, and by the way, with a little third party software, Macs *will* run Windows. Well enough to do anything I need to do, at least
73 de N5VB (ex-KD5BIV) AR SK
This may not be the case in some parts of North America, but around here (Toronto area) there are literally dozens of small independantly owned computer retailers who have much better prices than big boxes. They may not offer house-call service but I've had several HW failures handled quickly and painlessly. All that big boxes try to do is push expensive service packages on you (unnessecary for myself or most others on this site too). These guys are pretty knowledgable with regards to my HW questions too (which hard drive brands are more reliable, etc.) I've never shopped for a Mac, but this is one area where big boxes can't seem to compete with the little guy. BTW picturing Steve Jobs saying the word fuck in every sentence just cracks me up!
From hell's heart I fstab at /dev/hdc
Note however who submitted the article. It's our own fuckin' Siqnal 11. Hemos got trolled!
I wonder if Apple finally goes under if the gov't will have to bail them out like Chrysler. You know, Mac being a semi-viable alternative to the microsoft monopoly.
Gigabit ethernet cards are $399 on pricewatch, and I'm sure gigabit ethernet chips, when bought in bulk, are probably about $30 or so, if that. The logic itself costs next to nothing, that's why ultra160 on a motherboard adds barely anything to the price of the board, whereas a U160 SCSI card from Adaptec will set you back $300.
Now is a great time to shop around. . .
- A.P.
--
* CmdrTaco is an idiot.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
It's quite obvious that you choose to associate yourself only with people who, for some reason or another, don't have Macs. You are hardly an example for the human race.
--
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
Either it's just the fact that a computer guru got up in front of buyers and other people of the industry and added colourful language every sentence, or they just find the word "fuck" funny.
Who knows? But I do agree, the only meat to the story was the new Titanium and the digital capture to disc standard for the DV Macs. Why in the world nearly the entire first page was devoted to Jobs swearing, who knows?
Both Wired and Slashdot felt the need to make that bigger news than an all-digital video presence in the consumer computer market.
Dragon Magic
Human nature is the same everywhere; the modes only are different. -- Earl of Chesterfield
ACTUALY you may have experience in retail but obviously youve never worked anywhere selling macs recently, because apple is offering big incentives to the salespeople who sell cubes. not sure what the exact cash figure is, but i was told while working as an apple rep at the wiz that if i sold a customer a g4 cube, the lucky man who got to ring up the purchase would be extreamly happy.
--aiee
Umm, unless I am way off Their "SuperDrive" is a DVD READER and a CD/RW. Just like Toshiba has been showing off for the PC for a year. It will BURN CD/CDRW disks and READ DVDs but it WILL NOT burn DVDs. So it is nothing to get excited about.
"[Jobs] concentrated much of his address to the "customer experience" at retailers such as Circuit City, telling the dealers that, 'buying a car is no longer the worst purchasing experience. Buying a computer is now number one.'"
considerably faster than a P4
So does a AMD Thunderbird.. how does the G4 compare there?
Whoops...by post I meant the original thread of "MacCentral had much better coverage.", not the posted topic itself.
Where's the beef?
My guess is that few people ordered the DVD RAM option, and as a result Apple decided that it isn't worth the effort. There are also other companies producing DVD RAMs now, which are much better then the B2O one that apple packaged. Just my 2cents.
Mask
History is on the move. Those who don't keep up will be left behind. Those that get in the way won't survive.
That fact makes better fodder for the daily whipping Apple gets (deservedly so) around here.
blessings,
"Only in their dreams can men truly be free 'twas always thus, and always thus will be."
--Tom Schulman
That's how a fucking CEO handles stuff. He isn't a fucking pansy that prances around what he really wants to say. Fuck ya! Fuck!
--
Don't lead me into temptation... I can find it myself.
They were also impressed by his incredible potty mouth.
Every sentence he uttered -- every single one -- contained an expletive.
Sorry, I just found that funny.
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.
Paul
Goddamn rite! I love my powerbase! Easily upgraded to a 360 g3 and so cute. I even overclocked the main bus. 1 ide channel is its only fault. Other than that it is sweet!
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get jiggy w/ ayn rand!
Macs format 2 MB disks to 1.6 MB, I believe. You can format disks on PCs to this capacity (and higher!) as well.
> it hasn't really been talked about much, as burning DVDs is not something any of us would be planning on doing (unless we're pirating DVDs).
Not true. My wife and I have been hoping for the DVD environment for over two years for video and archival work we're doing. A couple of weeks ago, the least-expensive system that could remotely do waht we want was $12K or more. Now, it'd under $5K, works better, *and* the DVD's play in consumer players. it's just what we've needed for our libraries and research...
Chuq Von Rospach, Internet Gnome = When his IQ reaches 50, he should sell
Recently discovered press document.
-p4
(c) All Rights Released.
Apple is doing something that the other Personal Computer makers have not done well if at all. They are making a machine with nice capability built in, and depth for those that want to explore it. I have not yet had the chance to explore OS X, but if it does most of what they say well, it will be a killer for anybody that wants to run a 'cool' computer.
Quite a turnaround from the older Apple days.
What is a cool machine these days? Get yourself a fast CPU, cool case, maybe some nice toys to connect to it. Step through all of the windows garbage, and you have basically a multimedia machine with no serious guts. You could also get your latest Linux, and pile on all the half done stuff, and have a machine with real depth, but unpolished applications. Either you go Joe Mainstream, or Extreme Geek, there is no comprimise.
These new machines have the nice stuff that everybody is talking about built in, and probably easy to use. For the rest of us there is a respectable kernel, and the ability to build tools we like. Room to hack around, basically enjoy the machine. Jobs has given people a reason to buy. That is everything right now.
Everyone selling PC hardware right now knows that there is no money because the higher end boxes perform a little better because of their design (Go SGI ZX10!), but the Dell machines are close, and are easy to get. Hard sell these days. Most buyers are thinking "I can get two machines for the price of one." Say each of the Dell machines can perform at 80% percent of a high end HP or SGI(was Intergraph). Given that the cost is sometimes half, that is a powerful incentive to just buy the reasonable machine because nobody out there is giving people another reason to buy.
I think that the multimedia/animation/studio crowd will go nuts over these machines. Ever take a look at Maya running on an SGI machine? Looks great, does everything nicely, and does not crash often. See it on NT? It is an exercise in comprimise. I work with people using Wavefront products. Most of them are still using SGI, but they don't like the high price, and the IRIX environment good as it is does require the user to know some things to get basic tasks done. Wavefronts own people are drooling over these machines. They went to NT because the market was demanding it. They are moving to the Mac because they think it is going to rock.
Some of those users I spoke of have 'upgraded' to NT. Got reasonable boxes, saved money, and intergrated their Office tools with their Media software, and have had problems, downtime, and various issues. All this just to get Office, Maya, and Adobe on the same Desktop.
You should also think about that a little. All around me, I see people willing to make fairly large sacrifices just because of Office. This means no matter what its merits, most users and the companies they work for want it really bad, and they want it on one machine because having two is just not as easy as having one machine. (I personally like having several machines, but since they run UNIX, they seem like one. NT users don't know this. This is the true M$ monopoly not windows itself. One user, one machine, one Office.
Apple is poised to blow the NT machines in this market away. Macs run Office (even if you hate it, the reality is that lots of people have it, and it is needed in most shops to communicate!), and they are going to run Outlook. This combined with Maya, the BSD kernel, and Adobe tools will make for a workstation better than the other two alternatives combined. If Apple builds these machines right, there will be no better place to do multimedia. Lots of the smaller studios have switched to NT from SGI IRIX. Watch them switch again when this starts to roll. In fact the ones running high end stuff are smart enough to intergrate these new machines into the big iron that they already have. Give these machines a good X server, and they will make very nice desktops to run the UNIX machines from.
For the first time in a long time, I am really looking hard at one of the new G4 machines. Before this I had my eyes on an O2 from SGI because of its very nice media capability. Apple will provide most if not all of this for less, and on cool hardware. (Never Beige!)
Hope they do well. I do not work for an Apple reseller. For the first time ever, I kind of wish the company I work for would take a look at these because I think there will be something to sell. Not just to the lower end crowd, but to the higher end crowd that will pay for an SGI machine, or drop 9-15K ?!? on a high end NT machine.
Blogging because I can...
Foreword: I'm a die-hard Mac user, since 1986. I own more Apple (and NeXT) machines than most of you probably ever saw in a home.
But, is this story even remotely on topic for Slashdot? I fail to understand how this is "news for nerds". Less even "stuff that matters".
This is National Enquirer material. Cut it out.
Karma karma karma karma karmeleon: it comes and goes, it comes and goes.
Not quite. This is news because being blunt and honest is nearly unheard of in the corporate world in general. (If Jobs was actually doing that.) Try to imagine Gates (or Steve Case or Ivan Seidenberg or W. C. Ford or whoever) talking without sounding like he's running the latest version of MS CorpSpeak 2000.
If Apple dies in the process
You make this sound as if this could actually happen anytime soon. They have $4 billion in the bank
Steve is dealing with a changing world that is not bending to Apple the way it used to because the younger generation doesn't remember the "old" Apple and, frankly, couldn't care less
I would agree with you, to a point. The catalyst, though, is Mac OS X. It's drawn interest from all sorts of people that didn't give a thought to Apple before. Maya is certainly one of the most visible, and had quite a sizeable/packed booth at Macworld Expo last week. But I was also quite surprised to see Roxen there!
With Mac OS X and software like iDVD, Apple has a much more compelling story that it has had in some time. And except to see the advertising change accordingly. After March 24, there will actually be very good reasons to own a Mac beyond it just sucks less than Windows.
- Scott
--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
Just wondering but did you see the link under the artical about Mac going to the two button mouse. I have no idea if they posted something about this here, but that at least is somewhat interesting. Neck_of_the_Woods
Neck_of_the_Woods
Neck_of_the_Woods
#/usr/local/surf/glassy/overhead
Maybe you don't agree with his high-volume use of the 'f' word. Maybe using it in every sentence is a bit much. However, the way I see it is that he is being true to his nature, not putting a nice, clean persona on to cover his tendencey to use profanity. How many CEOs and other high ranking board members of major corporations use profanity in private, only to emerge into the public as the perfect, well-rounded, oh-my-gosh-no-I-would-never-use-profanity front? I would much rather see someone be honest and open about who they are rather than have them to kowtow to what is "publicly acceptable".
BigCat79
BigCat79
"The dead have risen and are voting Republican!" --Bart Simpson
Look at his history. He always and ever acts solely in his own interest.
I bet he also eats spotted owls and pushes old ladies into oncoming traffic.
This is just silly. The guy doesn't even take a salary, and didn't even have stock for some time after he came back to the company. He doesn't need money. He works at Apple because it's his baby. Anything eccentric thing he has done as the head of Apple's has been a function of that. I wish the CEOs of other large corporations cared half as much about their company's products as Jobs does about Apple's. It's an extremely personal issue to him.
The worst thing you can say about him is that he is fanatical about people experiencing Apple's work as he intends. He holds contempt for retailers that do a poor job of displaying Macs, or rumor sites that announce products outside of the context of an event. Though, if I was involved in such a project for 12-18 months, I would probably feel the same way.
- Scott
--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
Now we too can waste $4000 on an outdated machine with a crappy OS and a hockey puck where they forgot to put a mouse!
Or we could put Linux on it, but that'd negate the one decent feature that makes that titanium boat anchor worth having. The DVD writer.
While I applaud Apple for their "attention" to digital content creators, I still feel their vertical monopoly on hardware and software is damaging them more than it's protecting anything. It's like a sucking chest wound. And if they don't fix it, sooner or later, it's gonna kill them.
And with today's computer market, that's likely to be sooner.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
-- The ballad of arrivederci
It's easy to fault them for taking so long with OSX, until you see the newest build in action (the one at Macworld). Then you see what they've been doing all this time.
And in reality, OSX shipping last fall wouldn't have done anyone any good. There were virtually no native apps at the time. The press would have slammed Apple hard for that one. At MWSF, though, there were plenty of booths running native software.
- Scott
--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
Actually, the title on my submission was "Wired says Steve Jobs has a 'potty mouth"
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You are a fucking moron.
This was all over macweek last week and was on wired yesterday. Rading it a third time here isn't what I would call entertaining or even interesting. I'm so losing interest in slashdot now.
The resellers -- a bunch of no-nonsense businessmen and not your typical artsy-fartsy Macintosh types -- were impressed by his candor. (emphasis mine)
Now that's funny!
I think it's unprofessional for a CEO of a company to do what he did, but what are you going to do, dock his pay? I'm not going against the bet that he was drunk, either. Besides, if Steve was playing it Frank, maybe it wasn't Steve after all.
That's one I've never heard. Pigs will fly, it will be a nice day in Hell, etc.
Shit will be going uphill. I like that.
What is the robbing of a bank, compared to the founding of a bank? -- Bertolt Brecht
> As I said before, the salesguy's gotta make a living. Most people want a PC when they want a computer - why try selling them something else?
The example given here, was somebody who wanted an Apple machine in the first place, why assume "most people want a PC". That's BS !!!!
Sorry if we don't feel "symphaty" for the poor salesguy.
- sigs are for wimps.
I think he's saying that PC manufaturers are more generous with margins and sales people incentives than Apple, and thus Apple should not be surprised that they prefer selling stuff they actually make money on.
I'd thank God if we were. I have many times seen with my own eyes salespeople go up to people asking a question about a Mac, tell them incorrect information about its specs, and then steer them towards a PC.
I heard a guy one time tell a lady that the iMac didn't have Ethernet, and would she be interested in a PC that does?(hint: iMacs have always had 100mbit Ethernet) Also, I constantly hear salespeople tell customers that Macs have no software.
The other thing is that apparently no one in the entire store knows how to use a Mac, so they always sit there frozen or turned off. I have personally intervened probably five times where I overheard salespeople telling a customer something completely false about a Mac, and felt the need to say "actually..."
My guess is Apple retail sales would increase by at least 15% if salespeople would learn how to use a Mac, and stop criticizing them constantly.
And what's even stranger is that some systems have both a standard RJ-45 port and the AAUI port.
The logic behind it is that you were supposed to be able to buy different AAUI transceivers for different network topologies. Need BNC? BNC transceiver. TokenRing? TokenRing transceiver. Universal NIC, adapeter for the different connectors.
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Am I the only one who thinks Microsoft is a misnomer? Perhaps Macrosoft would be a better fit?
I was in Circuit City over the weekend looking at Macs with my girlfriend (who wants an iBook). There was a guy there that said he worked for Apple as a Mac-demo guy on the weekends and is a graphics design guy during the week. He was really very helpful even though he was more at home with Apple's higher end boxes than the consumer-oriented stuff they sell at Circuit City.
I was impressed.
Refrag
I have a website. It's about Macs.
I have said it before, I'll say it again. Apple doesn't do a lot of marketing research. Apple produces what Apple thinks is COOL -- "insanely great," as they say.
Sometimes, Apple produces products that the world is ready for -- things that are cool AND useful. For example, the iMac, the original LaserWriter, and maybe now the cheap DVD authoring. Good stuff. Clever stuff. Useful. Foresighted.
But sometimes, Apple produces something that is cool, but NO ONE WANTS. Best example: the Newton. Foresighted. Clever. Crippled by price and size. They were impressive toys, especially the 2000 series, but they were too early and too expensive. No one outside Apple understood PDAs until later. Even Apple didn't understand them totally.
Apple stays in business ONLY because their instincts about what's cool/useful overlaps with what people WANT often enough to turn a profit.
If Apple ever got their act together, they'd be a real force in the market, instead of a niche player. But they haven't learned yet that they can't force us into something we're not ready for. (OK, *I* was ready for the Newton, but most people weren't.)
blessings,
"Only in their dreams can men truly be free 'twas always thus, and always thus will be."
--Tom Schulman
Here's a good description of the QT 4.0 problems form the Interface Hall of Shame:
http://www.iarchitect.com/qtime.htm
The issues with the other products are similar.
I do not think that this is common. Most computers need a hub or switch to connect to each other via ethernet. The autosensing ethernet is a fabulous idea. Apple is doing great things with networking technologies. They have built in ethernet (on-board) to every macintosh for a long time now. The G4 desktops all come with built-in Gigabit Ethernet. Even the $1700 dollar model. I think a typical Gigabit card costs about half that. The extra investment is certainly worth the whole computer. The iMac is probably the only $799 computer with built-in ethernet (maybe there are a handful of others, but i would imagine it is a PCI card). All macs are also airport-wireless enabled, too (the notebooks included). Now is a great time to be a mac-owner. My next computer will probably be a G4 desktop. With iTunes, those things are amazing for audio. OS X is very exciting, too (if a little expensive--but i bet it is worth it).
As someone who once worked for a hell-hole Canadian version of those big box stores, let me put it to you this way -
As a salesperson, there is ZERO point to selling Macintosh.
I don't know what kind of moron Jobs is where he thinks salespeople have the time and trouble to sit there and demonstrate a product. In order to make anything over $27,000/yr you basically need to run around, ringing up anyone you see carrying a box - you don't get paid a percentage of the sales price, you get paid a small percentage of the "profit". $25 profit on a $2,000 computer is $2.50 in your back pocket, so to make min wage you have to sell two an hour. I only know one person who made a decent living at it, and he basically just went up to people and said "are you buying that" and if they said no, he'd leave and sign up the next guy, leaving customers who WANTED attention to poor stiffs like me who'd yap for an entire hour to some geriatric sod who expects $400 off his machine cause he's a good haggler, not realising that all Macs are basically sold under cost, which means NO commission, no pay, your profitability numbers go down, and you lose your job.
You see more Macs sold when they're being liquidated, cause you're paid a percentage of the selling price, not the profit, and at Christmas, where you pay a "spiff" of $75 to get someone to buy a Mac. But it's damn hard, cause people are like: "But it won't run Windows" and you suddenly realise you could just unload a PC on these people and sell two more in the time it takes to get over the sales resistance on the Mac and actually make a living.
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
From the article:
When asked about reports that Apple would open retail locations later this year, Jobs would neither confirm nor deny the reports. Later, when one dealer commented that it wasn't fair for them to have to compete directly with Apple, Jobs' only response was, "this is America."
And then he's surprised that these stores steer customers away from Apple products...
Typical Apple, no wonder they have problems.
So, then....
He was high?
What'dya mean there's no BLINK tag!?
Bongo must be a club kid with a 6 centimeter wide anus if he thinks God is a "she." Either that, or he's just missed all the Biblical to references to HE and FATHER, etc.
Ok, putting aside my suspicion that I'm talking to a lower life form, I'll give you one guess as to which gender wrote all those "holy" books. But let's be brief:
Anyway, Anonymous Coward, may you become better informed.
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You are a fucking moron.
I'm not really sure which is worse; Wired for running this ridiculous story in the first place or sites like /.
and Macslash for commenting on it afterwards. Wired stopped being relevant years ago. Adults and many children swear. Who gives a rats ass! And please stop
whining that Wired made fun of Mac users; WHO CARES Its wired! Yes, they use a lot of Macs to produce their magazine. Does that mean because I drive a Jeep I can't call Jeep owners yuppies or rednecks or "artsy-fartsy" ? Fuck off. This is a non-comment for a non-story.
-info
Broadcasting LIVE from a Bonus Room Over the Gara
Well, you would resort to spamming? Many people would kill you for that.
You're going to have a hard life =(
Yea, I do that when I even so much as *think* of marketing people.
--
Delphis
Apple's stock is in the tank.
I don't suppose you've looked at the Nasdaq composite recently.
Preliminary indications are that Apple users are not particularly interested in the complexity and sluggishness of Apple's latest operating system.
Didn't realize you were conducting a survey.
Processor speed is stuck at 500 MHz.
No need to waste time on research before posting.
Alternative architectures and software are killing Apple on features, price, and performance.
You're certainly right on price, but I'm not going to let you get away with features and performance. Apple is currently kicking ass in terms of desktop video editing and DVD production. And in terms of performance the G4 is, at worst, competitive with x86, and at best, is noticeably faster in things like certain types of encoding and Photoshop performance. Comparing two chip families by megahertz alone just doesn't cut it, otherwise Sun and IBM would be using P4s in their super servers.
There are legions of corporations and individuals who have been disrespected by Apple--from the BeOS community to the Apple clone industry
I don't understand how they "disrespected" the BeOS community except deciding not to buy them. I heard something about them not releasing system specs at some point, but LinuxPPC seems to be doing fine.
The Apple clone industry threw down the first gauntlet by marketing within the fold, rather than attempting to grow the platform user base. They were reaping all the profits, but eliminating much of the core value of the Mac in the process. That would have been fine if they had actually advertised somewhere other than Macworld.
Today Motorola announced 2500 layoffs.
Yes, at the MOBILE PHONE plant.
Everyone does GUI and mice nowadays.
Everyone makes cars with steering wheels and a gas pedals too. So what?
Apple is left marketing decor.
More great research. You're conveniently forgetting the three years of hard work by Apple's software engineering to create OSX. Not to mention all the pro/consumer video stuff they've been doing.
The most reasonable solution would be for Apple to open up. Open up its hardware specs and software so that where now exists little more than a corporate cult, there might exist a vibrant autonomous industry of developers, hackers, and alternative hardware vendors.
Yee-haw! Now just to figure out the part about how to make money. SGI forgot that step.
- Scott
--
Scott Stevenson
WildTofu
Scott Stevenson
Tree House Ideas
Jobs acknowledged that the TiBook only has one mouse button. Mr. Jobs is reported to have said "Of course it's only got one mouse button. What kind of f***ing idiot would want more than one f***ing mouse button? It's a Mac. That means it has a screen, a keyboard, and one f***ing mouse button. Get over it, loser."
Oh...I guess Taco forgot to mention the mouse button part...never mind.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
funny munging
That wouldn't be the first time. How do you think the iMac got here? (Note to the differently clued: the preceding link isn't a real news story.)
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Free P2P Backup, Windows & Linux
Hey now - my Umax S900 is still alive and well, easily keeping up with much more recent technology. Six PCI slots, standard processor slot, plenty of room for RAM, and six drive bays make it easier to work with than many of Apple's computers of the same vintage. It was also a great deal, thanks to Small Dog Electronics. I also got a barebones C600 from them for almost nothing, which will someday become a working Linux box (as soon as I get around to getting everything installed and configured). Both of these are essentially identical to the Apple machines they were copies of, with the exception of the generic PC-style cases and power supplies. They are great computers from an innovative company.
Motorola's clones on the other hand...
Hearing Steve curse like sailor deomstrated something to me: Steve is not afraird to show his human nature. After a quarter like the one Apple is just wrapping up, you'd think corporate PR spin control would be set on super-high, right? Well... it's not. Instead we get the CEO saying "we fucked up" and not hiding his disgust as the company's performance over the last quarter. What's important here? No denial.
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Am I the only one who thinks Microsoft is a misnomer? Perhaps Macrosoft would be a better fit?
Honda didn't show me a VW. Honda didn't try to make my wife look at an accord rather then a Civic. They did try to convince her to buy a 4 door rather then two door, and the "wrong" color. But not very hard. (they had no two doors in the lot in the trim line she wanted, and they only had the wring color too). [of corse I'm guilty of making my wife look at things other then the Honda Civic]
Volvo didn't try to sell me a VW or Audi even though they were in the same dealership (in the same big room even). They didn't even point me at a diffrent color or trim line. Then again I actually wanted something off the lot.
Of corse the last time I bought anything (modestly costly) at a retail chain they questioned my choice. I bought a DISH reciever to replace my existing one, and they wanted to sell me DirectTV. I wanted the Phillips 60hr TiVo and they wanted to sell me a Sony 30 (or the Sony + DirectTV 35).
I'm always glad to help, especially when it allows me to be informative and still say "fuck" fourteen times.
aÍÍ©ÍÌÍ£Ì'̽ͩÌÍzÍYÌÍÌY
Nice to see Jobs is such a regular guy(tm).
That See Also article (Microsoft Suite on OS X) is a real keeper though.
So. If M$ ports Office 2K to OS X, does that mean we also have a port for BSD and friends as well ?
-- kjhI just helped a friend archive a digital video project (for a class) over to CDs. Guess how many? Eight 650 MB CDRs. (And of course we burned duplicates "just in case".) He fed ex'd it off to a service bureau to have the data files burned to a data DVD and the final, composited video burned to a video DVD.
guess how much easier that project would have been with the new G4s? Three magic words: Done in house.
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Am I the only one who thinks Microsoft is a misnomer? Perhaps Macrosoft would be a better fit?
We're made to eat a certain amount of meat? Really? Do you have a citation for this statement?
For anyone who cares, you can get all of your protein (even essential aminos) from plants, and your b12 from sprouts.
It's the execs at the meeting of topic that created the environment you describe - so who better than them to bitch at?
I AM, therefore I THINK!
On one hand, your post infuriates me, because it's full of the same old MS-brand FUD I've seen a million times before, although you mixed in some Be-brand FUD as well, for spice. On the other hand, Mac OS X won't ship for another two months, so I can't blame you too much for not understanding where Apple is headed. Everything that they are doing revolves around Mac OS X. Even the Cube, which some like and some dislike, is a radically different proposition if it's running Mac OS X. A silent, 8-inch square computer with gigabit ethernet and AirPort, running a Unix-based super-GUI OS that never crashes and has Apache built-in is an attractive proposition. Reaching under the box to hit reset on Mac OS 9 is not worth $1600.
... in fact, it's called "Open Firmware". There are at least six Linux distros for Macs, as well as BSD. AND -- note this well and think about it for a minute -- the entire core of the new Mac OS is open source (it's called "Darwin"). Everything you need to boot and root the new Mac OS is out there in plain text. Surely, even if the hardware were somehow closed, a person could tell what's what by looking at the source to the Mac OS? Especially when Mac OS is based on such well-documented, open source, community projects like Mach and BSD.
... you don't need to plug them in to use them, and they don't automatically slow to half-speed when on batteries. The PowerBook G4 is the fastest notebook ever (even when running Mac OS 9), and it has the longest battery life. That is a fact. Go and compare benchmarks for desktop and "mobile" PIII's on Intel's site ... it will be hard to do, because they use different benchmarks and conventions for each to hide the fact that the mobile ones are so crappy. 15 watts and they're still crappy. The CPU in the PowerBook G4 requires only 7 watts at full speed.
... positively 1980's. The empty MHz of the 50 watt, 1.5GHz, paperback-book-sized P4 might make you feel like you have big balls, but it's not even close to twice as fast as a 10 watt, 2-inch square 733MHz PowerPC chip that now has two Altivec co-processors. Most of Apple's computers don't even have fans, and the ones that do are set to turn the fan off below a certain temperature. Apple gets tech support calls where people describe that their year-old PowerBook is making a funny noise and it turns out that the fan just went on for the first time ever. That is much, much, much more the future than the fan noise and dust bunnies of a typical PC.
.NET initiative ... Apple has WebObjects and iTools, both of which are out already and just waiting for Mac OS X to really get going. Mac OS X is two months away, and it's the first consumer Unix, the first consumer multi-user system. The average Joe will be doing remote desktops in no time, and running Java2 or other applications off the Web as well. Apps in Mac OS X are self-contained "bundles" that appear in the GUI to be just one file ... everything the app needs is right there. Copy the app to another machine to install it, or run it over the network, it's all the same.
As far as being stuck in the 1980's and a control freak, I think you have aptly described Microsoft. Here in the 21st century, we don't have to be limited to one OS and one application platform just to have compatiblity. We don't have to be limited to one word processing program to share documents. We now have this thing called the Web, and you can have any OS you like, as long as it also speaks TCP/IP. If it speaks Unix as well, then that's better still. Given that, wouldn't we work towards more diversity, rather than less? Why would we want to throw all of our eggs into the Microsoft basket? Especially now?
As far as open software and hardware, the hardware developer notes for the new 2001 pro models were released today. They use standard stuff like AGP, PCI, gigabit ethernet, USB, FireWire, standard RAM, ATA hard disks, yada, yada, yada. What is so hard about this stuff? Even the "Mac BIOS" is open
I can't believe you want Apple to drop PowerPC CPU's in favor of Intel CPU's in the same post where you accuse them of being stuck in the 1980's. First, there would be no 1" thick, 5-hour battery life PowerBook G4 if Apple used Intel CPU's. Maybe you are happy running a slow Intel notebook on wall power all the time, but I really prefer not plugging in my notebook at all. Why do you think Apple took the lead in wireless networking? Because they have been shipping notebooks with 5+ hours of battery life for years
I don't know about you, but to me, big, fan-cooled boxes with monster CPU's and serial and parallel ports seem anachronistic
As for a
Apple is in great shape for the future. It's the present that they are having trouble with, as they lead up to Mac OS X's release. How many Windows users are going to rush out and buy new Windows 2000 machines two months before Whistler comes out? How many bought Windows 3.1 machines two months before Windows 95 came out? Not too many. Apple is in that situation right now. If they had been able to release Mac OS X on time, perhaps it would be a different story and they wouldn't have their first unprofitable quarter in three or four years and we wouldn't be condemned to hear Wintel know-it-alls pronounce Apple dead again. Like Compaq never had an unprofitable quarter! Ha.
what a fucking stupid article to write about. the whole article was about 50 words long and said dick shit nothing.... get a life slashdot
Look at his history. He always and ever acts solely in his own interest. Being frank gives customers, partners, and competitors an advantage this guy doesn't want them to have.
So, when you want to work with Apple, the first thing you do is get a tight hold on Jobs' b*lls. If you fail to do this, you have only yourself to blame for the screwing he'll give you later on.
He's never frank, he gives the appearance of frankness to sucker fools.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
You're right, I said I quit recently. Maybe they are spiffing the Cubes right now - and it'd be a damn good thing, cause it's the only time they've ever made it worth anyone's time and trouble to sell a Mac.
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
hehehe, yeah just try submitting a story to them, almost everything I've submitted in the last few months has been rejected and then posted a few days later. ;-)
it seem they may need a moderation system internally
/* oops I accidentally made a comment, sorry */
...and he liked to say the f-word. He liked to say it a LOT......
Q: What's the difference between a used car salesman and a computer salesman?
A: The used car salesman knows when he's lying to you.
With what? Their $150 million dollar investment? Not likely. Even for the old 'poor' Apple that wasn't much.
Jobs saved Apple by coming up with something other than beige boxes. You may not care what color your computer is, but they reinvigorated sales like you wouldn't believe.
- Jeff A. Campbell
- Jeff
He's fired most of his HI guys, I don't know why he'd listen to them for this one thing. When Jobs came back to Apple the Human INterface group was one of the first to be axed. I mean you can tell.. QT, Sherlock II MacOS X, all have serious UI problems...
That buying a Mac at CompUSA and Sears et al. is an exercise in futility and frustration. If you go to a car dealership, they don't steer you away from the model you ask for to show you another brand and try to bullshit you while they do it.
Actually, I just recently picked up one of the new iMacs at a CompUSA. While it was frustrating, it was not for the reason you gave...
In my experience CompUSA has very few Mac people. So I was free to wander in, put an iMac box in my cart and wander up to the cash register without being bothered by a single sales person. But my problem was that I had to find the model I wanted in a huge stack of boxes with mixed colors and models.
I'm actually suprised no one approached me when I started shifting their tower of iMac boxes across the showroom floor to dig the one I wanted out!
Actually, before Imation, Apple had a "SuperDrive" that was a (Apple-led and then-) standard 1.44 MB floppy drive which could read both PC and Mac format floppies.
"The wheel turns, does it not, Ambassador?"
First of all, kind of a "flamebait" statement:
Miscrosoft is not a control freak?!?!?!
Ok, back to the issue at hand. Do you honestly believe that it would be good for Apple to open up? That would be good for Apple in the way that a quick suicide could be good for someone with a particularly painful terminal disease.
With the way the market is now, if Apple were to open up its standards, the rest of the market would cannibalize it and leave Apple as a rotting, gutted carcass at the side of the road.
I for the most part am happy with my experiences with Apple Computer, and would rather not see them devoured by hungry competitors that lack the ability to innovate for themselves (when was the last time you saw Compaq release a truly cool consumer computer system? How long untill they jump on the DVD-R bandwagon?).
Opening any of their systems, or porting their OS over to x86 would be certain doom for Apple, even if they ported it on a proprietary box. Imagine the expense involved in supporting 2 hardware platforms (Apple is too buried in PPC to even think about dropping that half of the hardware), the expense involved in trying to get developers to develop for it (why develop for OS X x86 when they can just develop for WinXX?), not to mention the risk of losing hardware sales (put OS X on ANY x86 box or open-source it and it is only a matter of time before some ingenious hacker(s) get it to run on most or all x86 hardware), which would be certain death to a company that makes most of its money from hardware.
Sure, it would be nice to see Apple open up its systems in an idealistic world. Many years ago, they may have even done so and gotten away with it. However, now they are too deep into the game to change the hand they delt themselves. To change now would be suicide.
My $.02
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"Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
Read the subject line of this post
-- the computer doesn't want any beer, no matter how much you think it does. NEVER, EVER feed your computer beer.
.. as an investor to take the truth and know what the company is going to do about it. Basically if I were a mac investor I would be glad to hear steve jobs say they fucked up and plan to fix it. Because if he doesn't, in the way I look at it; I'll be saying they fucked up AND that the CEO is a son of a bitch for trying to sugar coat it.
So he said a couple of expletives. I'd rather that than the fucking shpeel about how they screwed up and what the future holds in a candy wrapper. Steve Jobs in essence has probably done the best thing he could have ever done. He's showing that he has balls and is not afraid to say when fuck ups occur. The odd thing is that I've never ever liked Mac's but their recent boxes have got my mouth watering; from now on I'll keep an eye out for Apple. It sounds like shit will be going uphill soon.
Though to be fair, Dean Kamen hisself has said that the whole Ginger thing was blown out of proportion.
Frand and open doesn't mean the f work. As a CEO, he should be more careful in the images he portraits to the public.
I don't think Jobs drinks.
If he won't put any meat or meat byproducts into his body (militant vegan) - it's a reasonably safe bet that he doesn't drink either.
Perhaps a lack of critical protiens has set his brain chemistry off-kilter?
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Any manager who took an employee to task for it, especially in public, would be ignored.
Don Negro
Don Negro
Perl 6 will give you the big knob. -- Larry Wall
"We fucked up. We fucked up big time." --Steve Jobs
The moment an important leader utters references to profanity, the rules of communication change and a whole new media game starts. Reporters may feel a bit more free making comments about Jobs. I would say, "shit is going to hit the fan."
Back in my day...
Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
Generally agreed, though I honestly have trouble labeling Steve Jobs as "weak-minded", regardless of what I think about how he runs Apple...
information wants to be expensive...nothing is so valuable as the right information at the right time.
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
On the verge of fall 2000 Yes! But it is just a beta.
January of 2001 - Nope not yet.
End of March 2001 - we will see?
Anyhow, pay $129; no you can't get it as a preloaded option on a new machine. Just put that new machine purchase off until July 2001 - if you believe that date. Better yet buy OS X in March (if we deliver - we must play with the GUI some more), then get it free with a new machine sometime around July. For your pleasure, we will offer Planet of The Apes Trailers in QuickTime while you wait. The release of the remake will be out before you see OS X preloaded on a new machine.
Just finish the damned OS. Frustrated Mac users, like myself, will be more than pleased.
"I don't think it's selfish, to eat defenseless shellfish." -NOFX
> That $15 mouse cost you $75, since you pitched
> the bundled $60 mouse that came with your
> computer. Go to the Apple store and check the price.
And how many copies of Windows have you paid for but never used? That kind of stuff is always a wash. Most PC's (including previous Mac models) come with atrocious mouses and/or keyboards and many, many people replace one or the other. Besides, Macs have such good resale value, he can sell that Pro Mouse on eBay and probably get $50 for it.
And what are you doing at the Apple Store, anyway? Are you one of those sad and lonely closeted Mac users who runs Wintel but drools over Macs and then says "if only they had a two button mouse"?
So the head of a company CAN'T be frank with people? I personally want a CEO who tells it like it is. Makes me have faith in the company.
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I meant, "I said recently that I'd quit" not "I said I quit recently" I quit that kind of job in the early 90s.
--- Jump!! Fire!! Bullet time!! - Lego version of the Matrix
I think the car dealer thing meant that you don't see a Volkswagon bug ad and go in to a dealer and ask for one and have them take you across the street and try and sell you a Ford minivan.
Apple has a pretty strong brand identity, and people go into CompUSA asking about Macs and they don't get answers to their questions or a demo of the features, they just get told "you don't want one of those, come over here and buy a Compaq". That's not good customer service. For the first-time buyer especially, this is damaging for them and for Apple.
lol.. in case if you dont fucking know, that fucking MacOS X server is out for a long time and it support the fucking SMP.
In my experience, vegetarians and vegans, if they are worth hanging out with at all, can drink copious amounts of beer, vodka, tequila, jaegermeister, arak, ouzo, unicum (zwack!), or anything else.
Of course, yeast is technically an animal, so I am sure there are vegans who object to alcoholic beverages for that reason (that makes it an animal by-product), but vegans that militant are too high up in their tree to get my attention.
Boss of nothin. Big deal.
Son, go get daddy's hard plastic eyes.
Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
Gee, thanks. Seeing the humor behind this makes phrases like "crispy, oven-fresh Jews!" and "packing Jews into gas-chambers!" real knee-slappers! Something tells me that any humor in this post is pretty much overshadowed by it utter lack of taste. Guess I'm just overly sensitive.
'Only available in Strawberry and Tangerine'.
That sort of reminds me of the Mad magazine 'advertisement' from the 60s where they were selling surplus metal letters from Ford. The only letters available were 'E' 'D' 'S' 'E' and 'L'
Hay thar.
The same man who once followed the belief that if all he ate were fruits and nuts that he wouldn't need to bathe.
Not to mention that he's a militant member of the CtptecA(Comite to promote the eating of Apples)...
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
-p4
(c) All Rights Released.
So Jobs swears. Big deal. It doesn't change my opinion of him in any way. I see Jobs as that gut who went back to Apple at a time where they were in a real crisis, and turned the company around.
Don't get me wrong, I'm no Jobs sycophant, but he did save Apple from near disaster.
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Moderator's essentials
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
This article at MacCentral had much better coverage. Rather than focussing on the language that Jobs used to skake his audience into paying attention, they covered what he was actually fucking saying:
That buying a Mac at CompUSA and Sears et al. is an exercise in futility and frustration. If you go to a car dealership, they don't steer you away from the model you ask for to show you another brand and try to bullshit you while they do it.
I think Apple should sell on the Web and exclusively through its Mac retailers like MacZone, MacMall.
Screw the pimply-faced, rat-assed, pig-ignorant kids who try to screw the Mac customer for the sake of an idiotic loyalty to someone who has ripped off their parents out of of billions of dollars.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
MacWeek Article: Jobs slams computer retailers
It's interesting how the story on MacWeek focuses on Jobs blasting retailers treatment of Mac customers, whereas Wired's story focused on Jobs's cussing.
Every rule has an exception, and this is the only rule with no exceptions! Huh? -- Spatch
Every rule has an exception, and this is the only rule with no exceptions! Huh? -- Spatch
militant vegans are usually vegan for health reasons or animal rights reasons. assuming he's not a vegan because of animal rights, then it's a safe bet he doesn't drink.
Jobs gave only one example of a specific retailer -- that of Circuit City -- in which Apple had verified customer experiences where sales people had deliberately steered customers from the Apple store-within-a-store area and toward Windows-based products. Jobs called such situations "unacceptable."
The independant dealers were actually pretty pleased to have this meeting. This was not a challange to them. Many of the smaller independent dealers give good service to Mac customers. Its the big box stores that don't know crap about computers, but we already know that. This really aimed at John Q. Public who doesn't know much about computers and is looking for an easy to use first computer.
POIU
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"Don't anthropomorphize computers. They hate that."
You're not going to start with that crap again. MacOS 9 allows any app that needs SMP to use both processors just fine. Most apps that need that speed, such as photoshop, video editors, and mp3 encoders, take full advantage of both processors.
Next you'll be going on about fucking one-button mice. Read the story yesterday.
as everybody has been saying, what Jobs said in his meeting with resellers isn't really news for slashdot. however if you read the rest of the article, especially the 2nd page, there are some good quotes about the importance of the DVD burning capabilites of the high-end G4s. this actually is interesting news.
it hasn't really been talked about much, as burning DVDs is not something any of us would be planning on doing (unless we're pirating DVDs). but if you look past the WaReZ kiddies, you'll realize that this is actually an important technology.
from the article: "I'm starting to think this is as important as the LaserWriter was to desktop publishing.... It's revolutionary." while i hardly think it's "revolutionary," it is important.
up until now, mastering DVDs (that can play on consumer-level players) has been prohibitivly expensive. now Apple has made this available to a huge market for a measly $3500. i personally know many people at advertising agencies and training firms that would love to put their material on DVD as opposed to VHS, but have been holding off until the price comes out of the stratosphere.
considering the fact that in the past Apple has had the highest markup on their most expensive machines, i think they're going to rake in a lot of cash from this machine. this is also a great use of the Alitvec engine on the G4, and one of those (few) situations where it really does run considerably faster than a P4. at any rate, it's a good move for Apple.
- j
Wait! Did I just read the words socialist and MS in the same sentence!
Microsoft is in the hot water they are now because they behave like Industrial Revolution era monopolists! If that isn't the paragon of capitalism, I don't know what is!
You might want to go back and look at your use of terms a bit mroe carefully! Democracy does not negate Socialism, nor does Socialism negate Capitalism. Monopolism, like tyrrany destroys both by creating a single power structure that stifles choice, be it poltical, creative or economic.
Microsoft is the hard-nosed capitalist company there is. If there is competition to their core markets, they crush it in old-school John D. Rockefeller fashion.
And since when is quality control a control freak issue. Did you ever use some of the Mac clones that used to exist? My gawd! The PowerComputing PowerBase had to be one of the worst pieces of crap ever built!
Pooty tweet
Right, so what you're saying is that over five years ago, when Apple was beginning its major decline in market share and profitability, its retailing sucked. What you said doesn't necessarily have any bearing on its current situation.
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Make mine methylphenidate.
The problem with first time buyers that do not know the difference between a Mac and a PC, is that about half of those who end up with a candy coated iMac feel cheated when they learn that the rest of the world uses Windows and they cannot find cheap wares and run the email-screensaver-virus that their cousin sent them.
They come into Babbages all bug-eyed, looking for video games for their children; and they buy a copy of the Sims for windows.
You can't be mad at the sales person that steers customers towards PC's. They are saving that customer money and pain.
This is a bad time for computer makers, especially luxury computers. And it hurts to think different (right now).
is a weak mind trying to express itself in a fucking forceful manner.
When I was selling computers I got all sorts of flack for saying "actually" and correcting people. People don't buy computers based on any logical criteria as far as I can tell.
Typical person goes into a store says: "I'd like to buy a computer".
Sales persone says: "We're having a sale onm this one. It has a very low price and works well. It is a good deal"..
Persone: "Ok I'l have that one." then gets bragging rights since he got a good deal on his computer sinc ehe got it for X hudred less than his co-worker who bought a computer three months ago (wow, who da thunk it..)... The less you say about computer specs, the more likely people will buy.. This is why I quit that job.
Expletives ahead. Maybe the /. post should warn of language that some may find offensive contained within the Wired story.
(then again, maybe not...)
± 29 dB
The car salesman knows he's lying to you!
The Umax machines, though...
Typical. The world of Steve Jobs is so topsy-turvy that being honest about Apple's fortunes, and answering questions directly, are both now news. Bizarre.
What's next? Perhaps, "Steve Jobs says Apple is in the computer business!" What balls!
Exactly, his platform choice was a function of his environment, not choice. The reason he wrote Linux was because he was unhappy with the state of 386 operating systems.
Had a few variables changed, Linux could have easily been written on a Mac Plus*.
You are right, Intel deserves no credit for Linus' innovation.
* I have no idea when the Plus came out. I'm fairly sure that it was before 1991, so I used it for this example.
aÍÍ©ÍÌÍ£Ì'̽ͩÌÍzÍYÌÍÌY
The shift from DVD to CDRW is a big one as Apple has pinned its star on a Desktop Video revolution, and now must shift gears as consumers demand a built-in CDRW for the MP3 revolution and phenom. Adding CDRW means dropping DVD ROM and DVD playback as standard features in all Macs, though no doubt DVD will remain standard in the PowerBooks. Presumably when the new iMacs come out next month they also will have CD/RW drives instead of the usual DVDROM. There's a lot of speculation about external Superdrives from Apple, but I think that is highly unlikely. Much more realistic is a Superdriven iMac, as the combination of iMac/iMovie/iDVD could be a terrific desktop video solution for under $2K. Apple will want to keep the Superdrive out of the hands of Beige to help distinguish and drive sales to Macs. Need proof of that--just look at their sexy trio of top notch monitors--all are now Mac only. Superdrives seem headed for the high end iMac because of the two tiered DVD authoring software. There's the full featured $995 DVD Studio Pro package and then there's the consumer oriented iDVD package that comes bundled free with the Superdrive. The combo drives that can burn CDs and read DVDs (but not burn) aren't expected to appear in Macs until the summer. Looks to me like DVD RAM has bit the shed. You can't even Build-to-order a DVD-RAM Mac anymore.
"Siqnal 11" submitted this story. Note the "q" replacing the "g" - this ain't the same person. At least not the same nick.
± 29 dB
The vegans I knew back in college were vegans because they bought into the whole hindu "we're all one with the universe" thing, and none of them would drink. Smoking hash was another matter entirely.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Let me tell you from experience that the PC market, Apple included, is almost profitless at this point. There are so many reasons not to sell computers, which is why I think that Jobs has to get into reseller's heads that selling Macs is not a losing battle.
Most of the people who sell Macs don't make a lot of money from it, regardless of the markup. People are not willing to pay for PCs with inadequate anything right now, no matter how revolutionary Apple is.
Jobs' presence was made because he wants to assert people that he is trying to do his best to get Apple back into shape. If Apple dies in the process, he wants history to remember that he gave it his best shot, even risking a PR nightmare by using profanity in front of his dealers.
He's a smart guy; those of us who have seen Apple's latest reports know that Apple is in a little bit of trouble. Steve is dealing with a changing world that is not bending to Apple the way it used to because the younger generation doesn't remember the "old" Apple and, frankly, couldn't care less. It's an uphill battle, but, if he can't do it and fails, I don't think anyone could have done it better.
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Well, not that I appreciate him cursing, but I don't think the article was very fair towards him. I mean... the questions Jobs was answering weren't questions like, "Isn't today a nice day?"
First statement about the car - no context, so I can't judge that.
Second statement about Apple screwing up big time - sure, I'm sure he'd be upset.
Third question - it was a pretty ridiculous question.
So... let's be fair. He's not being quoted, and he's casually chatting with people, and he's talking about how his company screwed up big time, and also replying to a rather ridiculous question. Sheeesh...
A webpage is not reliable, a webpage with notations for a book could be.
No ill-will intended here, just would like to use the power of /. to ease the screams in my head everytime I hear these quotes dropped as fact, not like I've done any research on this or anything
---"What did I say that sounded like 'Tell me about your day?'"---
Let's see - A Logitech USB 2-button with scroll wheel mouse on my G4 at home. Cost me $14.99. Later updated to a Logitech Wheelman optical mouse for $39.99. A two-button ADB mouse on my beige G3 running LinuxPPC cost me $12.99. Most USB mice about there anymore pack the PC and Macintosh drivers on one CD-ROM that's packaged with the mouse. Which means that they are the same price no matter what platform it's going on. Microsoft does the same for their USB mice, which means a PC user and a Mac user pay the exact same price. Hate to bust your bubble, but accessories for PC and Macintoshes cost exactly the same - because in most cases, they are exactly the same.
"On the Internet, no one knows you're a minifig....."
Jobs is an abusive jerk. For those of us who have had to work near him, he's a toxic atmospheric pollutant. It's no surprise when he turns on the profanity. It's emblematic of his utter contempt for other human beings. What surprises me is the times when he stops swearing. That's when you'd better watch out, because he's acting.
"Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
Hah! Tee hee! Hoo! Okay. I was buying into this post at first. Then, I got to this part:
Hee! Right. Microsoft, which pressures OEM's not to change the bitmap displayed on boot, and not to load competitors' software at the factory, isn't a control freak. Bill Gates, as notorious a micromanager as ever has worked in tech, isn't a control freak. IBM, I'm suspicious of. Compaq, couldn't tell you. But Microsoft?
Hee hee! Hee. Hoo. Microsoft, the company that broke Kerberos? The same company that threatened to sue a competitor for benchmarking them? Okay. With my Rod of Lordly Moderation, I dub this post -1 Troll, +4 Funny. Take the net gain to your Karma and go back under your bridge.
The fuckers didn't have anything better to do this year then sue their own people for leaking information about the cube. It was a very good commercial but they stopped it because they didn't consider it "legal".
It doesn't look like they wanted to make money this year.
This is Steve Jobs we're talking about. The same man who once followed the belief that if all he ate were fruits and nuts that he wouldn't need to bathe. He's not exactly well known for being a levelheaded guy.
So 1) Health and animal rights probably don't enter into it
2) All the alcoholic beverages I can think of offhand are made from plants anyway. Unless he's concerned about harming yeast, I can't see a connection.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
>If he won't put any meat or meat byproducts into his body (militant vegan) - it's a reasonably safe bet that he doesn't drink either.
Why would you say that? The two have nothing to do with each other.
Sounds to me like the fucking profanity was as much as anything else a sign that Jobs was fucking serious about being fucking honest.
--
"Open source is good." - Steve Jobs
"Open source is evil." - Microsoft
Now some of the strategies may go back to the 80's. Personally I do not care. If it still works, why drop it?
True, you have to watch the new technologies, and make sure you do not get obsoleted out. But I wonder if part of Apples' problems came from some sort of departure from the original core idea of "Insanely Great" etc. i.e. - Focusing on innovative, almost inspirational technology.
There is this weird possibility too, that if MS goes forward with the .NET strategy, in effect abandoning Windows as a desktop only product, that companies like Apple may wind up owning the desktop. A long shot, to be sure, but weirder things have happened. And Apple does not have to abandon the desktop to expand as a company.
In the weirdest of all scenarios, Apple could survive MS.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
I'm a confused consumer. Imation better sue Apple...
The first thing I thought when I saw steve jobs here was about "IT" and then I saw "It" in the subject line. What do you think the connection is? Modertors: Please read about "It" before you think this is offtopic.
Trust the source!
- A.P.
--
* CmdrTaco is an idiot.
"Remember when the U.S. had a drug problem, and then we declared a War On Drugs, and now you can't buy drugs anymore?"
First, I am not a particular fan of Apple or Macintosh, and have never used PPC Linux (though I'm open to the idea).
up until now, mastering DVDs (that can play on consumer-level players) has been prohibitivly expensive. now Apple has made this available to a huge market for a measly $3500. i personally know many people at advertising agencies and training firms that would love to put their material on DVD as opposed to VHS, but have been holding off until the price comes out of the stratosphere
Here you hit the nail right on the head. Copying DVDs is very uninteresting (except for my legally purchased copy of Galaxy Quest given to me for xmas, in which I'd like to incorporate the "cutting room floor scenes" into the main movie, a "FreeUser's Cut" if you will). BUT I have a lot of footage I've taken over the years which I'd like to do some NLE on and then save to DVD, with english subtitles on portions in languages most of my friends don't speak.
Then there is the recording of television broadcasts direct to hard drive via a sony media converter, which I can then edit the commercials out of, save to DVD, and put in my video library. I would never buy each and every episode of Babylon 5, but if I can simply record and burn them, four episodes to a disk, I'd much rather do that than use Hi-8 or VHS, or even miniDV (which is also susceptible to dropouts over time).
Recordable DVD is way, way overdue, and I may well run out and buy a high end G4 when it hits the street. In fact, I would have done so already, if I could have had it shipped overnight instead of in "7-10 weeks" according to applestore.com.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
nothing healthy about a low fat, low cholesterol, low mad cow disease diet? is there no reason why doctors tell old people to cut meat from their diets? i'm not saying that it isn't a way you can have a healthy diet and eat meat, but meat, especially red meat, isn't really very good for you.
Actually it's Siqnal 11 with a Q not Signal 11
Your use of the word 'loyalty' is funny. If anything, Mac users are the epitome of loyalty. I use Windows, not MacOS or Linux, because I believe it is a superior platform (ease of use combined with software and hardware support). I don't use PCs out of loyalty, I use them b/c they're the best product. That's the same reason far more PCs sell than Macs - they're better. Loyalty is talking up whatever innovation or slogan Apple comes up with without analyzing it.
Was that $27,000 Candy Bucks?
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Says he was drunk. Let's face it...it's much harder to lie (at least well) when you are drunk...and most people tend to curse a lot more.
C'mon Bob...pull into the expo...I wanna check this out.....
Give me a break. No substantial meat in the article and I could care less if Steve Jobs says fuck. Slashdot editors should get off their asses and post better articles.
They stab it with their steely knives,
But they just can't kill the beast.
Geez, that's a stupid fucking remark. What the fuck does how much profanity a person uses have to do with whether they have good fucking morals? I have known people who never let a four-letter word pass their lips who were anti-social bigots, and others who can't say two words without swearing, who are down-to-earth, peaceful people.
... ha ha).
Besides, how much you can swear without offending anyone is very country-dependent. Brits swear like it helps them to breathe, while in the US, one swear word raises every eyebrow (then the killing starts
Jobs was speaking in a situation where the people he was talking to just wanted honest, direct, from the heart opinions to help guide them through a time when sales are lagging at Apple (no Mac OS X yet is the big thing, I believe) and throughout the industry (also Windows Me malaise while people wait for Whistler). It's quite likely that his willingness to open up and talk frankly impressed them as much as the content.
It just goes to show what kind of jerk the guy is, when he can't say one sentence without profanity in it. The language becomes more important than his (otherwise solid) thesis. It's a distraction and a detraction from the message, and he acted childish about it.
I'm not some prude who can't listen to the Seven Words You Can't Say on TV. I've been known to lace a few extreme words into my messages where I think it could use a little punch.
Only a CEO can get away with that sort of petulant behavior, because anyone else in the organization can (and should) be called to task on it. Human Resources departments are there to help make discourse more professional by disallowing stupid childish pranks like that, and I hope his direct reports give him a just earful. It's that sort of spinelessness that gets large organizations in trouble.
[
The machine also has an intelligent Ethernet port that can tell if it is plugged into an Ethernet network or directly into another Mac, which ordinarily requires a special "cross-over" cable.
I think this is pretty amazing, as I have never heard of this before, but I am not super up-to-date on network hardware.
Is this actually common?
I'm super, thanks for asking!...
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
see subject
When it comes to my next home computer, though, edting video, burning dvds from it, not having my wife afraid to use it, and still being able to bring up a unix shell for comfort and to do my business, a G4 with OS X is an obvious choice.
Boss of nothin. Big deal.
Son, go get daddy's hard plastic eyes.
Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
Jobs says that Apple has screwed up and immediately everybody drops what they're doing to praise him; "Oh look at that, he takes responsibility for his failures."
In the meantime, everyone overlooks the fact that, for all his flash and style, he has made a number of serious errors in terms of Apple's direction.
OS X represents a true chance for Apple to get back in the ball game. But for some reason, I'm worried that Jobs is thinking about what color to make the new desktops instead.
www.niceFire.com
www.niceFire.com
Funnier than a speeding bullet
Yes, you are over-sensitive. Some things are funny regardless of subject matter, that post was one of them, it was well written, well observed, witty humour. Claiming it is not funny because it references such a tragic subject which almost certainly doesn't even affect you or have any bearing on your life is simply being closed minded. I bet you're a Bible-Belt inbreeding by-product aren't you?
grab your ankles bitch
> We should thank them - Linux would not exist if it were not for their efforts.
Not really... Linux was created to be a free personal (as in, Linus was making it entirely for himself at first) UNIX work-alike that would run on an intel 386 cpu. It wasn't due to the influence of any of those companies you say we should thank.
I don't think even intel or the manufacturer of his 386 PC are to thank either, as I bet he would have written the OS regardless of what his PC was comprised of.
Linux would probably be different if it weren't for those companies, but I doubt its very existance is owed to them.
"Where shall the word be found, where will the word resound? Not here, there is not enough silence." -T.S. Eliot
The independant dealers were actually pretty pleased to have this meeting. This was not a challange to them. Many of the smaller independent dealers give good service to Mac customers. Its the big box stores that don't know crap about computers, but we already know that. This really aimed at John Q. Public who doesn't know much about computers and is looking for an easy to use first computer.
The only reason a sales staffer should ever steer first-time users away from the Macs and toward Wintel is if they get kickbacks from their own repair department.
The real reason salesmen steer you away from Macs is that they get a better commision on the PCs. Mac margins are razor-thin, and Apple is not giving salesmen any additional financial incentives, either. If commisions were better on Macs than PCs, then the same rat-assed salesmen would lie and twist your arms to buy the Mac. It's that simple.
If this is what a feature article on Wired looks like, I'd hate to see one of their quick takes. I was expecting in depth coverage of Jobs' talk with the businessmen, but it was just a couple of quick paragraphs.
Now you've done it. Here come the flames from the mac users who freak every time someone dares to question the lack of more than one mouse button or a scroll wheel. Heck, if a one/no button mouse costs $60, how much do you think a copy of a Microsoft Optical mouse with 5 buttons and a scroll wheel would? No wonder they get pissy.
I've been known to cuss when i speak with salespeople.
I would like to see Apple open their hardware platform to third party manufacturers and also port their OS to different platforms, like x86. It is the only way they will join the 21st century with the rest of us. Their business strategy is to old time hard core capitalist to succeed. They need to adopt the more socialist methods (if I may use that word) of MS, IBM and so forth, who are unafraid to compete in an open market, with open standards. MS has seen this, that is what .NET is all about. Time for Apple to join them - I don't see a .NET initiative from Apple. They need to get one, fast.
--Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The
Very funny article on Ginger at SatireWire.
"My mother works for Microsoft now. A whole other cult."
...this is big news. Because it has been years since Apple has really discussed anything with its resellers? Because Apple is paying attention to what others say and think? Because Apple is openly admitting its mistakes?
Or because Steve Jobs said "Fuck"?
However, it is nice to see Apple paying more attention. It is very nice to see him aim some flak at CompUSA. I have been there on occasion (the most recent time was a few months ago to actually see and play with the Cube), and the Mac department was TERRIBLE. It is amazing how some of the employees will try to "nudge" you towards the WIntel section. Excuse me but I am in the Mac Section for a reason.
As for Apple Retail Stores, I think they could be a great success if implemented correctly. That is, set them up to compete with the big chain stores (CompUSA, Circuit City, etc...the stores that don't seem to care that much about selling a Mac). Leave the smaller, Apple only resellers alone.
As for swearing up a storm, I do it to when I am extremely pissed off and frustrated about something.
As for the new hardware (the Titanium G4 Powerbook and the 733MHz G4 with DVD-R), all I can say is, "OH DEAR GOD! THAT IS AWESOME!"
*drool*
out.
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"Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
The resellers -- a bunch of no-nonsense businessmen and not your typical artsy-fartsy Macintosh types -- were impressed by his candor.
Jobs gave frank and honest answers to tough questions in this time of trouble for the company and its partners, they said.
Wow! I can expect all of these tough people to fuck those artsy fartsy folks three times a day and six times on sunday. Granny, get my gun!
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.