Dreamcast Postmortem

zlite writes: "The Financial Times has a good insider tale of how Sega bungled the Dreamcast. Short version: tentative marketing, divided opinions, and costly delays. Then the main champion got cancer. The machine died with him." I do have to say that I've gotten a lot of use out of my DC, and I know a lot of people who use and like them -- so I think the article is a bit overly harsh. But it's still got some good background to the device.

Comments

It was inevitable almost

[Ravenscall]

Sega sales had been lagging for years, and then they just basically died after the ill-fated Saturn. Dreamcast was a great platform from what I understand, but Sega jst didn't have the capitol or instant brand loyalty of that Nintendo and Sony command nowadays.

A sad end to be sure

Re:It was inevitable almost

[crazycrackmunky]

The downfall of sega has very little to do with bad marketing and even the saturn (althought that was a bomb to be sure.) The dreamcast had nearly everything, in some cases it was better than the PS2 (dont kill me please) it had working internet and a wide variety of games that cost less than 50 dollars a pop. The one thing that sega didnt have that was more or less out of there control was the cross compatibility with old games the same way the PS2 did with the original PS. It is true that a product called "Bleem" was released to allow that, but THAT was very poorely marketed, very few consumers knew about it.

I love my DC

[Ron Harwood]

... I have a n64, DC, and a PS (1 not 2)... and I get a lot of use out of the DC...

I don't think they bungled it.

Dreamcast

[Wind_Walker]

The best thing that ever happened to the Dreamcast was its failure.

Before you mark me as flamebait, let me explain. I didn't like the Dreamcast. I never played Sega stuff. I was a Nintendo boy, because Sega just plain sucked (All Your Base, anyone?)

When I saw that the Dreamcast was being discontinued and offered for only $99, I went out and bought one because, hey, it's only $99. With the dropping price of games (due to said discontinuation) I thought I could grab a couple of good games before they went off the shelf.

Dreamcast is an incredible machine, way better than that PS2 crap. Games for the PS2 just plain suck, the controller is uncomfortable, and the prices are over-inflated by artificially-created hype. DC, on the other hand, has lots of good games, the controller is terrific, and you can play up to 4 players.

Just because the Dreamcast failed doesn't mean that it sucks. PS2 sucks. Dreamcast is going to have loyal fans (myself included) for a long time.

------
That's just the way it is

Re:Dreamcast

[Sabotage]

I own both the PS2 and the Dreamcast. The PS2 controller is probably the best one I have ever used, and that goes back to 2600, Nintendo, SNES, N64, Sega Master System, Genesis, etc. I absolutely hate that monstrosity of the DC controller. On the other hand, the VMU idea in the DC is great.

As for your comment about being able to have "up to 4 players" on the DC, you can theoretically have up to 10 on the PS2, but I think the max that is supported by any current game is 8.

What really makes any system is the games. Right now, I'd have to say that there are plenty more games for the DC that I'd like to have than there are for the PS2. Hopefully that will change.

The truth is, I bought my PS2 so I could play Metal Gear Solid when it comes out, so any game that's released that is any good is a bonus. SSX anyone?

Re:Dreamcast

[nbvb]

Amen brother!

The Dreamcast is dead. Long live the Dreamcast!

Re:Dreamcast

[tenman]

Well, for the XBOX's sake...

Do you think that you would have changed your mind about SEGA if they had worked harder on an artificially-created hype about thier console? Should Mico$oft get the 10,000 RPM Media Spin engine to push the XBox.


TEN

Re:Dreamcast

[cfleming]

PS2 sucks DC rules, yea, whatever, but Jesus fucking Christ you must be the most cracked up, die hard Dreamcast advocate in the world to think that its "Tonka Tuff" controller is good. I hate that thing and everyone I know hates that thing. And we all use 3rd party controllers.

And as for the PS2 controller, it is just the dual-shock 2, which is just a hyped up PS1 controller.

Re:Dreamcast

[Claric]

An interesting point. If reckon that I would get a cheap Dreamcast just for the achingly lovely graphich and fun of the Tony Hawks series. That's what the PS2 needs. Tony Hawks - none of this futuristic snowboarding type rubbish. I have no idea what it's called but I found it quite funny when I went in to work one Saturday night to shut down a load of desktops to find this guy playing it on a large widescreen TV - And swearing very loudly at it. I'm suprised security didn't come join him.

Oh yeah, don't forget that Linux howto for using a box with a cable modem as a dial-up server for a Dreamcast. You don't even have to buy the add-on ! Smite thine DC-playing enemies with Penguin-power !

Claric
--

Re:Dreamcast

[decipher_saint]

Not to sound condescending but, there are still a lot of loyal Atari 2600 fans too but it hardly revitalized Atari's market share. As the article states, several things about the DC went wrong. Delays from part manufacturers meant that the release dates kept getting pushed back, this is death in the console market, Sony was done with the PS2 teasers and was starting to swing into full ad-blitz mode by the time DC thudded into the market. Sega also failed to get the draw developers (SquareSoft, Konami, etc...), this was a huge factor (in Japan, mostly) that would decide the future of the console. By the time DC made it over here the PS2 buzz had started, the number of initial games was low and the big name developers had bailed, as far as I was (and still am) concerned DC was DOA, only the after-market can keep it alive.

-----

Re:Dreamcast

[retrac]

I really dont think it is artifical hype.

Yes they have(are going to) create a media frenzy over this. But a system still needs software, those "killer apps". Current xbox has two that I can see... Halo and Abe.

Dreamcast didn't have any console specific apps to push the sales. I'm sure the hard was decent but there wasn't enough support from the software design community

Re:Dreamcast

[Chris Burke]

Dreamcast is cool and all, but how can you seriously complement the controller? It's the only controller I've ever used that is actually painful to use. The D-pad is sharp and pointy, the hand-grips force you to hold your wrists at an uncomfortable angle. The analog triggers are nice, but that's hardly a consolation when I've torn the skin on my thumb from using the directional pad.

Re:Dreamcast

[__aawwih8715]

Why pay a premium for something when you can't get what you want out of it.

You could have bought the ps2 for a lot less money and hassle if you waited until MGS2.

Like buying a dvd player before dvd's come out.

Re:Dreamcast

[__aawwih8715]

Um.....sonic?
Soul Caliber?

NFL 2k, NBA 2k, NHL 2k

Would have been better if sega would have gotten their head out of their ass and gotten EA to port to their console.

True, not a lot of games came out and not all that did come out were quality. If you ask me, a lot of them were missing features (such as MULTIPLAYER).

Re:Dreamcast

[joshsisk]

Personally, I really like the DC controller. Most of my friends don't seem to have a problem with it, either. The Playstation controller always felt too small in my hands. I also don't like the 4 shoulder buttons...

My favorite controller ever was probably the six button Genesis style, or the Saturn controller (which was almost the same thing).

Josh Sisk

Re:Dreamcast

[magic]

I agree... having owned a DC for a while and just played several games on PS2, the DC costs way less and looks better.

The PS2 games beat original PSX games up, but they don't compare very well against DC or PC games. N64 generally goes for a totally different look to its games, but it is behind DC as well.

-m

Re:Dreamcast

[__aawwih8715]

Don't forget EA.

All those sports games nuts would have bought DC's for the EA games.

If nfl 2k and 2k1 which had very little redeeming value in gameplay, but very good graphics and everything else includeing online multiplayer and managed to get into the top 10 for a while, imagine how well dreamcast would have done if it had the EA games.

Re:Dreamcast

[cmilkosky]

I don't know why this post I'm replying to is modded to 3, Interesting. The poster sounds like an uninformed kid who just can't stay open-minded for a moment.

Here's my take on everything. For reference, I have the Dreamcast, PS2, N64, and had most of the consoles previous to those dating back to the Atari/Odyssey2/Intellivision days.

1. Sega didn't need to put in the modem. How many people actually used it? It was wasted money.
2. Sega released the Dreamcast at a bad time. They should've released it much earlier. People had just gotten over buying the N64 and spent their $250 (or whatever). On top of that, N64 games were coming out at a greater rate and the system was establishing a good foothold on the video gaming industry. Of course, I didn't mention the Sony PS which was already around too, with tons of great games. Why then should a consumer go out and spend more on a new system (Sony, Sega, or otherwise) when they just bought something?!? There wasn't a need for a new system because the one's that were out were still good. I don't know about you, but not everyone out there is going to be able to buy 2 systems in such a short span of time. This was a big flaw in their Dreamcast plan.
3. This I don't know the facts on - was it released in the US right away or in Japan first? I think it should've hit the US right away.
4. Poor advertising & marketing - they should've taken the money that they were spending on that stupid modem and put it towards putting the Dreamcast in front of people's faces more.
5. The technology is good, but it isn't going to be able to keep up with the PS2, Xbox, and GameCube. Again - bad timing - it is 3.5 generation while the PS2, Xbox, and GameCube are 4th generation machines (1 being - Atari, SNES & etc, 2 - Sega Genesis, Turbo Grafx, Super Nintendo, 2.5 -Saturn, 3 - Sony Playstation, N64 sort of). The Saturn suffered the same fate - bad timing to me.
6. Sony is huge - Sony has a LOT more resources to work with. They don't just make video games. Sega had all their eggs in one basket pretty much. So, Sony can take a hit in one area and stick with it if it wants. Sega isn't getting revenue from other sources - just video games. Nintendo has other products out there that has really kept it afloat - the Game Boy is one example and the Pokemon franchise is another.

And that's really the main ones to me.

Is the Dreamcast a crappy system? Absolutely not. I think it is great, or I should say WAS great. The technology just wasn't timed right. It SHOULD'VE been out at the same time the N64 came out.

But I honestly won't buy any more games for it because I don't have the time to play it or the money to spend on it. My kids love their N64, so we keep buying games for that, and I love my PC (which can be upgraded when new technology arrives) and the PS2. I know the PS2 games will keep getting better. The Dreamcast is sadly not going to be played often except for Crazy Taxi and Soul Calibur every once in a blue moon.

It may not sound believable, but I really liked the Sega games. They were good. Sonic looked like it was a little rough around the edges at times, but basically the games were terrific for the Dreamcast. It just won't be able to compete.

Now, the PS2, that is a VERY forward looking machine. All that crap about the developers having a tough time with it - well give them a little time. All they needed to do is create their own development kits/libraries. Most probably have done that already, so you should see the games getting cranked out much faster now. I don't know what the poster's basis is behind saying that the Dreamcast is way better than the PS2 crap.

Well, I've said enough. I really think Sega's timing was the big factor with marketing and advertising close behind.

They made the right decision to go software only though. They need to become lean and mean right now. And as everyone knows - building consoles is a losing proposition - it's the software you make money on.

Chris

Re:Dreamcast

[connorbd]

Okay, so I don't have either a PSX or a PS2 (don't plan to buy one soon either). But isn't the PS2 controller basically identical to the second-gen PS1 controller?

(And I actually like the DreamCast controller -- it's a bit large for a child but it has just about the right feel for me. It's a bit ugly, but it works.)

/Brian

Re:Dreamcast

[connorbd]

Hmmm... I'm not the only one out there who thought the original Sonic seemed like a bit of an unfinished symphony. I've been playing it obsessively (until I fried my controller with a static burst a couple of days ago :-( ) since I got my Dreamcast.

I bought my Dreamcast after it dropped through the floor myself, primarily for hack value (even though I haven't tried to hack it yet). I would never have bought a DC when it first came out because of the WinCE factor, though -- it wouldn't surprise me in the least if this was a major cause of its weak sales.

/Brian

Re:Dreamcast

[GTRacer]

Now you've done it...

I would've bought a Dreamcast months ago, even before the eventual demise and price drop. DC has some killer games and they usually enhance their arcade ports. They seem to have the most original games (Samba De Amigo, JGR) - well, in the US anyway. I would LOVE to find a Sega Sports edition black DC to go alongside my PS2 and N64. I love games and I don't care who makes them.

So why haven't I joined the DC minions? Because that standard controller is total ass, that's why! I am 29 and therefore do not have the hands of an 8-year-old. I cannot easily single out the A, B, X, Y face buttons. Explain to me how I'm supposed to use analog gas and brake and shift using A and B. Please! Because I'd love to get Sega GT and Sega Rally II...

P.S. The DS2 is an evolution of the PS1's DS revolution. Name me a better controller config. 10 buttons (+ start and select), 2 analog sticks and a d-pad, all within easy reach of adult fingers. The evolution is the pressure sensitivity of ALL the buttons! So far, I've only played one analog-button game, Moto GP, but it works and works well!!

Just wait until GT3 comes out and you can shift with clutch pressure and still have analog gas, brake, and steering.

And just where does Miyamoto-san get off saying the GameCube controller is so revolutionary? It looks an awful lot like a bloated dual shock on the rag...

GTRacer
VKP Ashley Riot - An Army of One

Re:Dreamcast

[Camhorn]

I agree with everyone saying that the DC controller sucks in comparison with Sony's. Which is why I got this product. It works pretty well, except that the DC uses a much smaller deadzone that DualShock wants, so there is occassional drifting.

Re:Dreamcast

[dacileva]

1. Sega didn't need to put in the modem. How many people actually used it? It was wasted money.

and

they should've taken the money that they were spending on that stupid modem

Umm... More than 200,000 online players of Phantasy Star Online since December, 2000. See this Press Release from Sega.


-- Nik (Dacileva)

Re:Dreamcast

[CeruleanSilver]

you can theoretically have up to 10 on the PS2

Yeah, but with what? Online access or whatever Sony has that splits the controller ports (multi-tap)? Personally, my console system is for playing with real people-- in the same room. I've got my PC for Diablo 2, StarCraft, Half Life, ect... And I sure don't want to buy some expensive peripherals to do something that Sony should have done in the first place. Why the hell didn't they just have 4 ports? Every other console has it. Even those from the previous generation.

Re:Dreamcast

[suraklin]

What Wince "factor" Dreamcast does not use Wince unless the developer puts Wince on their GD-ROM disc.

The main factors for its failure was not enough advertisment, not enough third party support, and the stigma of being burned by SEGA in the past.

Don't get me wrong, I love my DC. I play it more than my PS2 or any other system I have. I am really sad to see it go.

Re:Dreamcast

[nicky_d]

The PS2 controller is an enhanced version of the PS1 Dual Shock controller - the main difference is that all the buttons are analogue. This feature hasn't really been used much yet - Zone of the Enders uses it, but the best example so far is the Metal Gear Solid 2 demo. When things get going, it could make a world of difference to beat-em-ups, to use one obvious example - 8 buttons with, say, four levels of sensitivity (the buttons ovver 256) gives you 32 attacks from just the standard controls, without taking combinations into account. Tap lightly for a quick jab, thump the button for a hard punch... but that's a pretty dull example. Accelerator / brake pedals, aiming angles, musical scales (like a slide trombone)... leave it with the Japanese for a few months, and see what happens.

Re:Dreamcast

[iainl]

Not only Phantasy Star Online; show me a review that doesn't feel the need to point out how supporting online play means that DC Q3A wipes the floor with the just released PS2 version, or PS2 UT for that matter. My modem gets regular use here.

Apart from anything, just try to show me a better $99 WebTV box. Certainly beats the PS2's half-assed attempt at being a DVD player.

Re:Dreamcast

[larryj]

With no lag at all too. Phantasy Star Online is sooooo smooth when you're playing with 3 others.

Racing online in Daytona is pretty sweet too. I've noticed the online opponent's car jump around a bit, but for a 56k modem, it's great.

NFL2k1 and NBA2k1 also offer online play, although I've never really tried it. I just play the computer or someone else using another controller.

What's really nice is downloading the recent NBA trade updates. Now when I play NBA2k1, Mutombo plays for the 76ers. Same thing with NFL2k1.

Maybe the modem wasn't used as much as it could have been, but it hasn't been a total waste.

Re:Dreamcast

[cmilkosky]

"Ummm..." right back at you. And tell me how many Dreamcast's were sold - total? Look at it from a percentage point of view real quick.

Let's say that there are about 8 million Dreamcasts out there right now - giving you the benefit of the doubt that there could be less.

And how many people are using the modems? I'll give you even more benefit of the doubt again and say there are 1,000,000 people worldwide using the Sega modem (and I'm sure that's stretching it quite a lot). That's 1/8 or 12.5% . Only 12.5%!!! Was the modem worth it? Nope - it should've been an optional accessory OR at the very least, a freebie given out if you signed up for SegaNet for a year. That way you'd only get the people who'd use it. They wouldn't need to produce as much.

Ummm.... I don't think the modem should've been in it.

Again - I'm not trying to bash the machine. In my non-expert opinion, it was poor decision-making on Sega's behalf. Did they really think that they were going to get enough people to use the modem?

Chris

Re:Dreamcast

[connorbd]

Tell me Sega and/or the game developer and/or anyone who uses the Katana devsystem for a shipping product doesn't wind up paying a royalty to MS no matter what. (BillyBoy probably gets a per-unit just to silkscreen the logo on the front anyway...)

/Brian

Re:Dreamcast

[suraklin]

Most of the Dreamcast games do not use WinCE. They are mostly native DC games. The ones that do use WinCE do have to have a license for the OS.

Re:Dreamcast

[Chris Burke]

Yeah I understand how perfectly straight can be uncomfortable

Um... Okay, obviously you've never touched a dreamcast controller, so here's something you can do to simulate it.

Hold your hands out at shoulder width, with your fingers pointing straight away from you. Your wrists should be straight. Now move your hands so they are a few inches apart, but keep your hands pointed straight forward. Notice that your wrists are no longer straight.

Non-painfull controllers (PS, N64) account for this by putting their hand grips at an angle. Painfull controllers (DC) have theirs perfectly parallel. If you can hold the Dreamcast controller without having your wrists bent, then you are a mutant.

The d-pad has the perfect amount of joggle and isn't stiff like the PS pad, making it easy to move between directions.

Not only is it stiff, it's pointy, so when you do try to change direction your are pushing your thumb against a near-immobile sharp edge. The buttons are just as bad. You want a good dpad? Try the SNES controller. And it has nice, rounded edges!

DC's attempt to be original merely resulted in painfull.

Re:Dreamcast

[layingMantis]

which Dreamcast controller were you using?????? It's a cheap copy of the N64 controller. And your $100 Dreamcast will be junk in a year's time due to no new games and very hard to find old ones. Sega showed it's lack of dedication and foresight with the Saturn, so why would anyone trust them to support the 'Cast? And lo and behold it died an early death before the battle was even joined.

Zero Wing?

[oingoboingo]

If only Sega had managed to port Zero Wing to the Dreamcast...it really could have been the killer app they needed.

You know the drill..."All your Dreamcast are belong to us!!"

sega

[BradleyUffner]

Sega seems to have a bad habit of creating new systems, then abandoning them in favor of other bright shiney new toys, sometimes less then a year later.I'll personaly never touch a Sega console with the idea that it's going to be around for awhile.
=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\= \=\=\=\=\

Re:sega

[cavemanf16]

Very true. I think of how Nintendo is STILL supporting its archaic GameBoys, and it's still selling like mad! Likewise, Sony is still selling PS1's and new games are still being created for it. In the PC market it's ok to make something and move on to the next big thing ASAP because if you don't, someone else will. But in the console market there's not much room (as of yet) for upgrade ability because it is meant to be a stand-alone gaming only system. Therefore, console companies really need to build a quality product, hype it up, and support it as long as possible. Sega never has done support of systems well, and I think that's what has killed them over and over again.

Re:sega

[BradleyUffner]

The genesis would be the only Sega console I would consider stil purchasing, if only for the RPGs released on it. Although there are alternatives **cough**emulators**cough**, I would still love to have the orriginals of these games. Near the end of the Genisis' lifetime Sega released the SegaCD, and um.. that other thingie that plugged into the contrige slot. That really split the developement for games, people didn't want to buy both. Nintendo managed to keep the SNES (still my favorite console system) going very strongly, they never split the system like Sega did.
=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\=\ =\=\=\

My Dreamcast still works

[DG]

And I'll keep on buying games for as long as they keep making them - and the quality stays as high as it is.

Test Drive LeMans absolutely rawks, Starlancer brings back all kinds of happywarmfuzzy Wing Commander vibes, and my wife loves blowing me up in Worms Armageddon.

Game labels, keep 'em coming!

(and who knows - maybe Loki will start compiling games for Dreamcast Linux someday)

Well,

[k_187]

Personally, I think Sega is going to do alright. Mostly because they have the best IP in the business. The major game franchises out there are Mario, Sonic, Zelda, Pokemon... I can't think of any more. Notice that Sonic is second there(of course the fact that of the three I name off the top of my head 3 are from Nintendo says something too). Not to mention the fact that Sega has some of the greatest RPGs ever(some are better than that crap Square has been putting out, and no I haven't played FF9, FF8 was crap I have said so, and so it shall be). Sega is just going to have to move to a software only business model(I don't like that term) like SNK did after the Neo-Geo bombed(too damned expensive if ya ask me, same reason the N64 didn't blow up like the PS1 did). I've been hearing that Sony, M$, and Nintendo have been lobbing for Shenmu 3, and Nintendo has been trying to get Sega Sports(which is really what they need,Nintendo Sports also suck). I think Sega is going to do just fine (hell, wait til Sonic vs. Mario comes out).

Re:Well,

[MrBogus]

What's important about those 'franchise' characters is brand identification for the under 12 year old set.

Since there hasn't been a real popular Sonic game in a number of years, I wonder if the kids even remember who the hedgehog is.

Re:Well,

[__aawwih8715]

N64 was 200 dollars at launch, same as playstation. Nintendo is very realistic when it prices its consoles and always makes them affordable.

N64 didn't keep up with playstation because it was harder to develop for and the cartridges were too small. Thats only reason. The software taht did come out was usually of very very high quality, especially stuff that nintendo and second party's did.

My .02

Re:Well,

[suraklin]

Nintendo's first and second party games are usually high quality. The problem I had with the N64 is most of the 3rd party games I played were awful. To this day I only have one 3rd party N64 game, Bust A Move.

Re:Well,

[__aawwih8715]

Go out and get the new tetris
Very high quality. Best tetris i ever played.
Not kidding.

Other than that...
Worms armageddon is really good for n64.
Controls are awesome once you get used to them.

I like hang time, but nobody else does except my friend. The game is 2d and not the best graphics, but really good gameplay.

I also have bustamove.

if you're looking for good games to get, go to n64.ign.com and you'll find 'em.

"Poor marketing"

[Lemmy Caution]

Is it me, or does anyone else notice how contemptuous the geek-consensus is towards marketing, how it is usually painted as a useless endeavour and marketing staff thought of as unnecessary, yet whenever a product fails and the reasons for that failure aren't clearly understood (or when a disliked product - e.g., Microsoft - succeeds), suddenly it's all about marketing?

Re:"Poor marketing"

[bluGill]

Yes, but you don't have the facts exactly straight. Geeks hate marketing because it is in large part about lies and false promisses that we have to fullfill after the fact. Anyone (and this is most geeks with a real job) who has had to rush to put in some baddly designed feature because marketing promissed in and someone bought it understands. Cut the cost down to nothing and then build a great full-featureed system on top of that... I can personally think of several buggy programs that cannot be fixed due to the above, that I have to maintain.

Still we grudgingly admit that if a product fails it is bad marketing, and if it succeddeds it is good marketing. Likewise when a company fails it is because of bad management. (Which often hired the bad marketers) Technology has nothing to do with either, something geeks hate to admit. Linux was a little geek toy that we enjoied for years until marketing got a hold of it. True geeks would be happy to have linux remain a little known geek toy, but marketing recignised some of the things geeks like about linux as good, and they started selling it. (Witness redhat and similear companies that make money marketing linux. Linux doesn't need redhat, though we enjoy the benifits of having them around.)

When a product succeeds it is marketing, when a product fails it is marketing. Success in this case is measured in money, there are other definitions, but they don't pay the bills) Still anyone who has delt with marketing understands why geeks cannot stand marketing.

Re:"Poor marketing"

[MrBogus]

Geeks don't have any clue what "marketing" really is. It's just an easy scapegoat (Classic example: Microsoft has good marketing. IBM OS/2 had bad marketing. End of story) or something that is superficially seen as only the quality or amount of the advertising.

The real heart of 'marketing' is product positioning, product tying, pricing strategy, distribution strategy, and so on. For example, IBM spent far more money promoting OS/2 than Microsoft spent promoting Windows. But IBM got almost all of the above factors wrong, and Microsoft got it right. But everyone saw a stupid IBM commercial with nuns in it, and therefore they can point their finger at that instead of the numerous strategic fuckups that IBM made.

There's a similar argument to be made about Apple in the mid-90s. Their product line up was a confusing, overpriced mess, the clone licencees weren't helping them, they had huge production planning problems, and they had no clue who their primary markets were. Yet the Mac faithful was bitching about the quality of the advertising.

On topic, in Sega's case, their marketing failure was that they designed hardware that required a huge loss to get it out at the $199 price point. Note that the feature set and price point are almost purely marketing decisions. They didn't have the capital to sustain these losses endlessly until the market was mature and the production costs were cheaper. Boom - they had to fold their tent.

I love my DC too

[phaze3000]

And I know quite a few people that have bought one. In fact when it was announced that production of them had stopped, and the price was dropped, the Dreamcast outsold the PS2 in Japan for a week.

But you need to put this in context; this is a Financial Times article, and they don't really care about the quality of the games; they're interested in the sucess (or in this case otherwise) of the business. And one has to say that the Dreamcast did nothing for the business - in fact Sega stock rose quite sharply when it was announced that they were dropping the DC.

--

Re:I love my DC too

[Jace of Fuse!]

It's all in the name of business.
...

Sega is a "Software Company" remember?

So they stopped making the machines? They slashed the price, injected a few hundreds of thousands of more machines into the userbase, and have now set them up to sell more copies of Phantasy Star Online, Sonic Adventure 2, and (with any luck) a future version of NiGHTS.

The best thing that could happen to the platform now is for Hitachi or NEC to decide to pick up production of a 3rd party machine with DVD capabilities and a groovy form factor. (I love my Dreamcast to death, but the machine does look a bit too much like a toy for my taste.)

"Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"

A reply onto itself.

[fourshadesofdark]

When Dreamcast was announced, my friends and I sat around, jaw open, trying to figure out exactly how Sega (Sega of all companies!) could even consider launching a system against the age-old giant Nintendo (who'se next generation console was still being worked on under codename: Dolphin) and the newcome Sony. After Saturn (which had some cool games and alright graphics), Sega had kind of dissappeard, and we liked it that way. Having been mostly Nintendo kids growing up, we managed to stay pretty much on their bandwagon. A couple of us had Playstations (myself not included), but never had we even considered buying a Sega... anything. So we managed to laugh it off, and say that Sega would fail yet again. When Dreamcast was released, nobody paid much attention to it. That is, until we played Crazy Taxi. We all have DCs now. It's safe to say that Dreamcast is a good system, built strongly enough, with some good games out there. The problem lied in that Sega didn't have the backing to support it. Having been out of the loop for so long, and not having the funds needed to run a large-scale marketing campaing, I don't see that they had much of a choice to fold. Kind of a shame, too, because I would have liked to have seen what came after DC.

Re:A reply onto itself.

[__aawwih8715]

Crazy Taxi would have been twice the game if it included multiplayer.

I find it a lot more fun to compete with others instead of myself or a clock or any AI.

Re:A reply onto itself.

[fourshadesofdark]

Agreed, definately agreed. Especially a net multiplayer.

Sega bombed

[WickedClean]

Sega has made way too many systems that bombed out. In fact, the only thing that kept them going was the Genesis. They do make some decent games, and made a wise choice in sticking to just making games. Remember the Saturn? How about the Sega CD? Or the 32X? Or the portable thing....the nomad? A company has to spend a LOT of money on development for those sort of things.

Re:Sega bombed

[gfxguy]

32X was horrible - an expensive bandaid they abandoned almost immediately, screwing everyone who purchased one (I didn't).

Saturn bombed, too, but not because of being abandoned by Sega. It was out there four years before Dreamcast was released. Frankly, the games on Saturn, at first, were better than PSX. All the games I have for my Saturn came out the first year. I only have a dozen or so, but you know what? I still play them. My nephew, with a playstation, came to visit, and thought that Daytona Championship absolutely rocked compared to what he's seen recently on the PS1, and that was from five years ago. Virtua Fighter II and Sega Rally haven't been equaled in that generation.

I don't think you can include Saturn in the quickly abandoned category.

But you are right, while I think some of the hardware is great (Genesis was great for it's time, and so is Dreamcast), their forté is software.

Re:Sega bombed

[gfxguy]

I think you're right, but the where I saw the quote spelled it with an S. I'll change it, though.

Sonic Sentence Checker?

[Caball]

"I do have to say that I've gotten a lot of use out of my DC, and I know a lot of people who them - so I think the ..."

Who them what? Why didn't you buy the Sonic the Hedgehog Grammar and Complete Sentence Checker? It is pretty cool to watch as Sonic screams over your paper highlighting incomplete thoughts.

Taps for the DC

[BIGstan]

WOOHOO! First Post...ahem. Sorry.

I also moonlight for a retail toy store in addition to being a corporate slave, and was there when the initial systems came. There were 5 (or 6) games available, extra controllers were expensive, and the other accessories were worse - although much cooler than any of its "competetors" at the time. Games were slow to come at first, and by the time 3rd party eq. came out for it, people in general were choosing to go back to the PlayStation. For the graphics' sake, I wish it had held on longer, but it was doomed from the beginning. I might buy one for the Soul Caliber aspect, but i'll just stick with my comp for entertainment for now.

Re:Taps for the DC

[interiot]

You could write something awfully similar for the PS2:

• I was there when the initial systems came. They sold off the shelf instantly, leaving everyone else to constantly ask if we had any in. There were a few games available, controllers were available but worth nothing since no one could get a system. Games came slower than the dreamcast, and weren't any better for a long while.

Given that the DC is 1/3 the price, it seems an easy choice.
--

Re:Taps for the DC

[BIGstan]

The PS2 is going to die off, as well. The huddled masses want games now, good games, in large quantity. But first you have to have enough equipment to create the market for the games - the games that are available might be big, bright, and beautiful, but without a console to play them on, they sit on a shelf, collecting dust. One of the DC's major selling points - online gaming(!) - wasn't even available until the console had been out for months. Lackluster game sales, games that are more eyecandy than actual gaming, and slow-to-appear features have all contributed to the fall of the consoles. My store sells maybe 1-2 PS2 games a day, same with the DC. Compare that to the 10ish games we sell per day for the PS1. That console did well - but it also came in at a time when it was top of the line, and had no major competetors. I still debate buying one - if my roomates didnt have 4 between the three of them. :)

Err.

[dave-fu]

The Genesis handily beat the SNES in America for its tenure.
Saturn was a mistake, Dreamcast never had 3rd party support, so it goes.

Re:Err.

[Rocky]

Nope. Genesis started out in front, but the SNES was waaay ahead by the time the next wave of consoles (Playstation, Saturn) was coming.

What about 3dfx?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm surprised the 3dfx part of the Dreamcast saga got no attention in this article. In case you didn't know, the story went something like this:

Back in the Voodoo Graphics days, when NEC was still making 3D accelerators for the PC market (PowerVR), 3dfx (then, 3Dfx) had a contract with Sega for their new console.
Then, Sega went back on their contract and went with NEC. 3dfx sued, eventually they settled and 3dfx walked away with some money.

I don't know what this all means for the success/failure of the DC, but I imagine it did something in the broader picture.

The Japanese.

[Matt2000]

Although North American businesses are far from immune to management quibbles, it seems like in a lot of cases that Japanese companies can get caught up in notions of duty and honour, and have difficulty making the quick decisions required in the computer/electronics markets today.

Growing up in the 80's, the Japanese could do no wrong and were wiping the floors with everyone with their improved production models and more efficient operations. Now it seems they have more trouble competing in the faster paced market. For example, I find it amazing that none of the top grpahics chipset makers are Japanese (it's even more amazing that two of them are Canadian).

Perhaps certain fast paced international markets are just not compatible with the Japanese style of management.

Re:The Japanese.

[MrBogus]

Re:The Japanese. (Score:-1, Offtopic)
by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday March 28, @09:36AM PDT (#87)

This is the common perception in US and Japan, but this is wrong.

The Japanese were kicking ass in the 80's because they had access to almost free capitol.

As soon as the recession hit, and the (essentially ) free money dried up, they looked as tough as wet sack of sh*t

Not offtopic at all. Posted at 2 for your pleasure, moderators. BTW, If people don't want to read AC posts, they don't need moderation help.

Re:The Japanese.

[RayChuang]

However, there are a few companies that have managed to defy your description of Japanese companies.

Four companies I know of--Honda, Toyota, Sony and Matsushita Electric--have done well because were willing to adapt themselves to the needs of various international markets.

Think about it: when it comes to reasonably-priced quality automobiles, the brand names of Honda and Toyota always is more or less on top of the list. And when it comes to consumer electrical products, the names of Sony and Panasonic (Matshushita's worldwide brand name) also comes to mind to most people worldwide.

That is the reason why Sony Playstation became such a huge hit. And because Sony was able to leverage their brand recognition, it was able to outmarket all its competition and become #1 in console game systems.

Re:The Japanese.

[gkanai]

Matt,

Re:The Japanese.

[gkanai]

Matt,

I agree with your assessment 100%.

That Sega died due to management is yet another canary dying in the coalmine. Japan suffers from a rainbow of problems including a political system unwilling to get out of it's own way; a banking system in utter ruins; an education system churning out clones of the 1980's ideal; and at the core, an utter lack of personal responsibility for actions and their consequences.

Try to name one single piece of software built in Japan and used around the world (outside of games/entertainment software.) Ireland and India are the new up and coming software behemoths, certainly not a place like Japan where people aren't interested in owning PCs and would rather SMS each other on their iMode phones while on the train.

I suspect the Japanese economy will be in recession for many more years because in the past decade, nothing has changed. No fundamental shift in policy, education nor any significant financial reforms. Until the nation begins to feel MUCH more pain will they try to call back the spirit that guided them from the post-war period to their height in the 1980s.

Gen

Why Dreamcast?

[ZeLonewolf]

Two words: Crazy Taxi :)

Re:Why Dreamcast?

[suraklin]

Crazy Taxi and the 18 Wheeler game are both going to the PS2

Re:Why Dreamcast?

[larryj]

But Crazy Taxi 2 isn't (unless something has changed).

Sega on the right path

[Chibi]

Many feel that Sega ditching the console market is their best path to profitability. By taking this step, they've become the largest third party developer (passing up EA). And Sega, as a company, makes some of the best games out there. Every console maker will want them in their camp, so things will be OK for them in the end.

And despite what many think, the Dreamcast sold very well in the US. It didn't have the "cool" factor with Joe Average, but most gamers could see it was a good platform with some quality (and in some cases, groundbreaking) titles.

hrmm...

[DocMarten]

Ironic that the slashdot 'games' icon for this story is a N64 controller, is it not?

Beating dead consoles with a stick...

[disc-chord]

What the hell is the deal with all this "oh the DC is dead!"... "oh the DC was another failure" ... enough already. Consoles die, get over it. I own a DC, and I had a ton of fun with it. I would have prefered to see it last untill the Xbox, but oh well. I got my money's worth and I'm not crying in the streets.

If you are seriously broken up about the death of the dreamcast you need therapy.
If you think the DC is a failure, I'd like to see you do better.

disc-chord
now back to your regularly scheduled rants, MS hating and first posts

Re:Beating dead consoles with a stick...

[iainl]

If you'd prefer your Dreamcast to last until the release of XBox, then let it do so! There is still Crazy Taxi 2 (which kicks arse, by the way), Sonic Adventure 2, a new version of Half Life (officially the greatest PC game of all time) and others on the way, and if you've played until boredom all the great games already available then you're bored faster than me. Lets see - have you completed:

Soul Calibur, Jet Set Radio, Crazy Taxi, Ecco, M-SR, F355, DOA2, Sonic Adventure, Virtua Tennis, Rayman 2, Space Channel 5, Chu Chu Rocket, Samba De Amigo, Sega Rally 2, Sega GT, Resident Evil: Code Veronica, Phantasy Star Online, Daytona, etc, etc...

Tons of games out there for this great machine. In fact I'd say there are more great games for the Dreamcast than there are even ok ones for the PS2!

Re:Beating dead consoles with a stick...

[SquadBoy]

Phantasy Star Online 2?

Re:Beating dead consoles with a stick...

[__aawwih8715]

Phantasy Star Online 2.0 not 2.
Same game, just patched thats all.

Re:Beating dead consoles with a stick...

[dacileva]

There is a Phantasy Star Online v. 2.0 coming out this May (with an additional difficulty level, some streamlined stuff, tons of new weapons/Mags, and two entire new areas), but there will also be a Phantasy Star Online 2 coming out nearer the end of the year (as far as I've heard).


-- Nik (Dacileva)

Bad Timing

[DarkH3lm3t]

Saga just suffers from not knowing when to release new machines. Ever since the Megadrive 32x they have constantly released consoles at times when people are saving up for the next generation of machines, which boast far better eye candy in magazines. Also they never quite got the idea of specializing in a sector of gaming. e.g. neogeo - 2d fighting games. Nintendo - Mario Cart / Platform. Playstation - post pub action. Sega - Sonic - I got bored of it 5 years ago. Why, Why, Why - did they not get into bed with Square in the early years... when they had lots of wedge before the Playstation? Anyway I'm still waiting for the 3DO2 laters. Saga just suffers from not knowing when to release new machines. Ever since the Megadrive 32x they have constantly released consoles at times when people are saving up for the next generation of machines, which boast far better eye candy in magazines. Also they never quite got the idea of specializing in a sector of gaming. e.g. neogeo - 2d fighting games. Nintendo - Mario Cart / Platform. Playstation - post pub action. Sega - Sonic - I got bored of it 5 years ago. Why, Why, Why - did they not get into bed with Square in the early years... when they had lots of wedge before the Playstation? Anyway I'm still waiting for the 3DO2 laters.

entering the chrysalis

[oldstrat]

http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1006-200-4635343.html

When a caterpillar starts the journey to a butterfly, we do not say the caterpillar has failed.

DreamCast's exit from 'game box' to 'set top' makes sense... that's what the unit was meant to be in the first place, or at least had evolved to be.

Has anyone seen the 10base-T adapter announced just ahead of the discontinuation announcement anywhere?

Dreamcast STILL Best Console

[BiggestPOS]

I have more games for my DC (PSO, Jet Grind, NFL2k1, Daytona, Samba de Amigo, and many more) that I enjoy playing than I could even FORCE myself to play on the overhyped PS2. The DC just had the games I wanted. I wasn't even tempted by the PS2, friends who had them did nothing but try to convince me how great they were. So I'd sit them down in front of Jet Grind and watch them disappear into a world of actual FUN gameplay. It was amazing. I am personally responsible for 5 people SELLING their PS2's and buying dreamcasts.

Sega is/was out of their leage.

[Lethyos]

...But before you mod me to flamebait, let me explain. While it's true that they sunk a lot of money into R&D for their products, one of their failing points was that they didn't go for the right type of research. Look at Nintendo, Sega's old big rival in the days of 8 and 16-bit consoles. Nintendo was always developing it's own technology for the task. Processors that were VERY well refined for gaming. Look at the SNES. It's amazing what that box could do given it's, what, 2 or 3MHz CPU? Then compare that to the Genesis. Now while there were excellent Genesis games, they didn't quite have the *umph* or the level of eye-candy that the SNES had. Why? Well, it wasn't made with components optimized to the task. I remember reading plans a while back on building a Genesis with off-the-shelf components from Radio Shack. Case in point, the most successful game companies designed and built their own machines with little outside assistence. Sega tried to cut corners by using whatever was available at the time.

They are still making games

[Sublimed]

Even though sega has stopped making more dreamcast HARDWARE, they still have at least 100 games coming out, some of which look amazing. Sega also stated that they will keep making games as long as there is demand for them. As shocking as this may sound, the dreamcast has a decent user base, who knows how long it can live. Knowing sega however, they often make promises they don't keep. The main problem with the dreamcast was sega's marketing, anybody who owns one will tell you how great the system is. Many of the games are innovative and insanley (is that a word?) fun (ie. crazy taxi, jet grind radio, space channel 5, etc...).

Sega problems ran deeper than that

[evilned]

I love my dreamcast, PSO has been a blast, NFL2k1 was alot of fun, Skies of Arcadia has been one of the best RPG's I've played in awhile, and Crazy Taix is one of the few games that me and my girlfriend both enjoyed. Still, its the same old story from sega, another botched half supported system. Sega CD, 32x, Saturn, now Dreamcast. That being said, this problem with marketing, and corporate infighting has forced its in house development teams to become extremely strong and creative, which is exactly what sega is going to need now. With the Sega Sports label, they could really do some damage to EA right in its core market, the sports games, hence the bad mouthing from both sides. AM2 can make great fighting and driving games, and Shenmue, for all its faults, definately is original. With sonic team you have a group that really understands the platform game well, and is getting a trial by fire initiation into the world of online gaming by PSO. And flat out, no other company around translates fun arcade games into fun console games. I just hope that the BS that destroyed their consoles doesnt destroy what could be a great third party publisher.

Management, Not Engineering

[fm6]

I do have to say that I've gotten a lot of use out of my DC, and I know a lot of people who use and like them -- so I think the article is a bit overly harsh.

Jeesh, Hemos. There isn't one word in the article about the engineering quality of the product. It's all about management infighting and bungling. Like all business publications (and a depressing number of "technical" rags) Financial Times sees everything in terms of market opportunities won or lost. Having a quality product is only one (not always essential) factor in that equation.

There's no sign the writer knows more than the barest basics about electronic gaming or engineering. For this kind of article, she doesn't need to.

Her point is that the suits killed the product. From our nerdy point of view, Dreamcast being a quality product only strengthens her point.

__

It will live forever..

[drwiii]

Or close, anyway, as long as the developer community still supports it. Here's some screens from a near-perfect adaptation of gameboy tetris I've been working on, which I hope to make multiplayer once Dan's programming libs support networking.

I Agree

[Tom7]

Yes, a $99 Dreamcast was a great way for my roommate and I to slack out for our last semester.

Running "backup copies" without a mod chip certainly helps, too!

(Though.. I've got to say that the playstation controller is more ergonomic, IMO, than the Dreamcast's. That thing really hurts after a while.)

We really like Marvel vs Capcom 2, Virtual On, Tony Hawk 2, Jet Grind Radio, Cannon Spike, and Skies of Arcadia. There's definitely enough here for a $99 purchase, and if you get sick of it you can throw NetBSD on it. ;)

Re:I Agree

[webrunner]

Am I the only one who absoultely dispises the PS d-pad? With the four parts ocming through the plastic it's just painful at times. Dispite 3 generations of controllers they never did make itany better.
----

Death is Good?

[fm6]

The best thing that ever happened to the Dreamcast was its failure.

Because it brought the price down? Has it occured to you that nobody is going to write games for a discontinued platform?

__

Re:Death is Good?

[Dom2]

Who cares? When the games dry up, try and get NetBSD running on it instead and get some use out of it.

-Dom (thinking about buying one)

Re:Death is Good?

[__aawwih8715]

Linux runs on it too.
just check out the main emulation sites and they have instructions.

http://linuxdc.sourceforge.net/

Broadband adapter is in the code now.

100 dollar terminal anyone?

Hopethe rc5 cracker is ported :)

Re:Death is Good?

[cancrman]

You know, I do agree with you...but there are soooo many good DC games out there anyway.

Just a sampling...

Soul Calibur (Possibly the best launch game for any system EVER)
Crazy Taxi
Phantasy Star Online
Jet Grind Radio
NFL2k
Tony Hawk 1/2
Shenmue
Skies of Arcadia / Grandia 2
Test Drive LeMans
MSR

And lets not forget the strangest game ever: SEAMAN!

Pete

Re:Death is Good?

[jcoleman]

Au contraire!

There are well over 100 games still in development for the system, which will still see some life in licensed machines like the TiVo-style settop box we see here on /. from time to time. Many of those games are surefire hits, such as Sonic Adventure 2, Crazy Taxi 2, and Sega's fantastic "2K" sports series.

Let's not forget all the fantastic games that are already available for the system, like NFL 2K1, Daytona, Jet Grind Radio, Tony Hawk, Shenmue, and especially Soul Calibur. Sega may no longer be producing the hardware, but that won't make *MY* Dreamcast stop working.

PS2 vs Sega

[jgerman]

You know all the posts about "PS2" sucks are a bunch of crap. I love my PS2 especially now that more games are coming out. Just like any other system the initial games aren't that amazing.. give it time. After a year of developers ecperimenting with it it will blow the doors off of Dreamcast, only to have the doors blown of it a year or two later. There are some games I would like to play on DC, Shenmue is probably the only one, but I'd never buy one. Why? Because I knew how sega handled their systems... poor support, and a new machine after a ridiculously short time. I did have a Genesis and loved it for game like Shining Force. But if you'll recall the initial games for the DC were awful, there wasn't a single game that interested me, and it wasn't until Shenmue that one did.

All in all I don't get as much enjoyment from a console that I do from a PC game (mmm Fallout Tactics... drool), because they are never as in depth and they just don't offer the flexibility of a good computer game. But realistically (sp?) none of the big consoles suck, they wouldn't be here if they did.

Sega just can't get off the sauce

[tenzig_112]

Who is going to trust Sega's next proto-flop? They sound like your friend's drunk dad. "I promise, Timmy. This time will be different." But it's not. The products just get killed faster now.

As far as comparing the PS2 and DC, just remember this: it's easy to love a dead man. I've played both and, sure, the DC is a great device inside a poorly conceived marketing and integration shell. But it's dead. If someone asked me if Maralyn Monroe was hotter than my wife, I would say "sure, but she's dead."

Re:Sega just can't get off the sauce

[re-Verse]

Hmm, thats some pretty flawed logic there. The finger painting i did when i was 3 years old was better than anything da vinci ever did, because hes dead?

i know many people, including myself, who still play dreamcast very regularily, and who have played with ps2 and quickly become bored of it.

Dead? Feh. There are versions of linux being written for it, and if i remember correctly, you can install the latest version of netbsd on it with no problems. Myself, i get a big thrill off of the idea that i can admin my *nix network from my gaming console, without leaving the couch =)

Oh no, i just thought of something! I stopped growing at around age 22. Does that mean i'm dead??? uh oh.

Re:Sega just can't get off the sauce

[larryj]

I picked up a Dreamcast when the price dropped to $99. I had not had much interest in console games for some time, but figured for $99, what the heck.

I wish I had gotten one earlier.

Yes, I know the system is 'dead'. Strangely, my games still work though. I bought a new game a couple of weeks ago, Daytona USA with online racing. There are some games still in development that I'll buy. Yes, quite a few projects have been cancelled, but if I never buy another new game, it will still be a great system.

So far, I've bought NBA2k1, NFL2k1, Soul Calibur, Crazy Taxi, Shenmue, Chu Chu Rocket and Phantasy Star Online. I'm having a blast. I've updated my NBA and NFL rosters using the modem. I play PSO online with no lag at all. I've easily gotten my $99 out of it. The games are just good.

For $99, I don't care if it's dead or not. I wish it was more successful and games were coming out for the next 5 years, but the 2 months I've gotten out of have been worth it.

Maybe it's the younger customers who can't afford to buy a new console every couple of years, but I don't understand this "my system rules and yours sucks" attitude. I know the PS2 is more powerful and is capable of better graphics. I haven't seen anything for it that makes me wish I had spent more money on a PS2 yet, but if the games pick up, maybe I'll get one. Until then, I'm happy with my dead DC.

Dreamcast = Jaguar = another ill timed console.

[Brigadier]

I think the dreamcast was a pretty good machine, however I think the timing of it's release was just bad. Idealy it should have been released to compete with the N64 and playstation however it's a generation behind. Not only that but with competitors like the playstation + the years weeks months of antisipation it was bound to fail. I like many other people chose not to buy a DreamCast but instead to save my cash for a PS2. Just like the Jaguar, an excellent machine, but given cost, and compition it fell in a bad lot. It was a good run for it's money with a few good titles, however not godo enough.

Re:Dreamcast = Jaguar = another ill timed console.

[connorbd]

I'd say half a generation. It's still more horsepower than a 1st-gen iMac, or so I'm told, and those aren't terribly slouchy systems (graphics are a bit weak, but that's another story).

/Brian

Goodbye Sega

[Shocker69]

Sega makes great systems and games. I don't know why they won't follow through. Sega Master System was technically better than the Nintendo Entertainment System. Unfortunately, Nintendo had the marketing (and developers) to come out on top. Perfect example of this is my parents always referring to my Sega Master System (and every other video game) as "Nintendo".

Then along came the Genesis, great system, great games. Probably their biggest success, more powerful than the SNES, but only had 16 colors, images didn't look as crisp as on the SNES, and once again the marketing of the SNES outdid them.

Sega released the Sega CD. However this didn't really improve anything except that they could have full motion videos (even more grainy than the pixels). The price tag was high, and Sega abandoned it because it was not selling. A lot of my friends bought this and were very disappointed in the games support.

Sega then thought if they could improve the capabilities, it would sell more units, Behold the Sega 32x. This was abandoned so fast it made peoples head spin.

Enter the Sega Saturn, like the article says .. they were just outhyped and outmarketed by the Playstation and the playstation was actually better. Bad timing I guess.

Every one of their consoles (I'm leaving out the nomad which died because of battery life) was abandoned prematurely. I liked the Sega Dreamcast and vowed to buy one when phantasy star online came out. Fortunately, I heard the news about them abandoning it right when Phantasy Star was released. Which made me decide not to buy one. I think if this came out at launch time, there would have been lots of units sold. Let's face it people buy console to play their favorite games.

Sega made some truly great stuff and will be missed. It is unfortunate that with as much talent they have had, it is blinded by Sega's very poor marketing throughout the years.

Re:Goodbye Sega

[MyAss]

Uhh, you decided NOT to buy the system? What the hell is wrong with you. The DC is only $99. Controllers and memory cards start at $20 and cheaper. Used games of the classic must haves are plentiful and cheap. The system is a bargain. Ever since I got my DC in november (when it dropped to $150) I haven't touched my Playstation. I've logged over 200 on Phantasy Star Online alone. Buy the system. Goto any game site and look at the best video games of 2000. Many of the best games of 2000 are DC titles, you don't want to miss out. You could probably get a used DC with a bunch of games for $150 bucks. A similar PS2 setup would cost you close to half a grand.

Re:Goodbye Sega

[sageofreason]

You make some great points; however, you just don't have all the information concerning the console wars. Marketing is great but one must remember that the product also goes to the success of machine. The NES was successful for mostly one reason--Super Mario Brothers. It's hard to find a game of that caliber and universal likeability than that game. Along with Nintendo's in house development teams--EAD and R&D 1, creators of the such classics as Metroid, Kid Icarus, Super Mario Land, and Tetris Attack (They're known as Intelligent Systems now and are responsible for paper mario)--Nintendo's 3rd party support was phenomal. Capcom, Konami, and Square which was late bloomer all created great original software for the Nintendo. Sega has talented in house development teams, too. Yet they never capitalized on powerful 3rd party support. Of the big three japanese firms only Capcom remained committed. Konami only offering a Bemani title here and there. And never quite releasing the rumors Castlevania game for the Dreamcast. And Square on Sega, nuff said. That's the reason the playstation 2 following was so loyal. Many gamers expect the next FF, RE, Metal Gear on their system. Sony is getting complecent, though, and Microsoft and Nintendo could disrupt their success. Namco has been dissapointed with software sales, for good reason, in japan ps2 owners are using their systems as dvd players.

Re:Goodbye Sega

[MwtrV]

IThe Genesis had 64 colors. SNES had 256.

The major consensus back in the day when the Genesis and the SNES were in competiton was the Genesis was able to handle more sprites, thus quicker games, whereas the SNES was the system encountering slowdown more. So it was basically thought the Genesis had a more powerful CPU while the SNES had a better graphics one. It's easy to see, though, why the SNES may have been the victor; with better looking games that play decent, who's going to care about what magazines and other sources are saying?

I actually got a Sega Saturn. It turned out I only ended up playing the three games it came with; Virtua Cop, Virtua Fighter and Daytona USA. With the exception of a few other games, the Saturn didn't have much to its name.

I'm thinking the main reason Sega left the console market (perse, creation of consoles) and declared itself "devoted to software" is perchance with the PS2 and Nintendo's [Gamecube] work coming out the DC would show it's age, thus prompting the need for Sega to develop another system, ready or not. Mabye Sega wasn't ready to introduce a new console; like the parent is saying, you need titles to go along with the system (unless you're Sony, of course:), and Sega never seemed to have as much support as the others. It's also important to mention Sega's copy protection scheme was broken in August of 2000. The effect this may have had on sales I have never heard, but you'll find your average ware-d00d on IRC is still in high school, and schools are the ideal marketplace for pirated games. BTW, I believe PS2's has also been broken.

Re:Goodbye Sega

[jerkface]

the Genesis was able to handle more sprites

The Genesis could display up to 80 sprites at once, the SNES displayed up to 128. The SNES could also make sprites up to 64x64 pixels in size, compared to the Genesis maximum of 32x32. The Genesis could display up to 20 sprites on the same scan line, provided they were small sprites; the SNES could display 32 sprites on the same scan line. During the first two years after the SNES came out, quite a few of the popular games had major issues with slowdown and flicker. The bulk of this was due to programmers' unfamiliarity with the new system. Similarly the first Genesis games didn't take advantage of their hardware very well, either. In the end the SNES was able to pull off better performance due to superior graphics hardware. A fast CPU is nice, but on a game console it isn't as important as good graphics hardware.

--

Donated?

[jargoone]

From the article:

the wealthy benefactor who donated more than ¥135bn ($1.1bn) to Sega before his death earlier this month.

He donated a billion dollars to Sega? That's sickening. I know it's cliche, but it's sad to think of what good could have been done with that money.

Re:Donated?

[fondue]

Yes, he donated the money to a company who he had worked for and invested in for many years of his life, which employs hundreds of people around the world and would have very probably gone under had he not. Now Sega has a secure (and rosy) future, and will continue to flourish as a fitting legacy to this dedication.

Get your facts straight before making glib judgements.

Re:Donated?

[meehawl]

Right on! Whatever about him doing a Bill Gates and fighting cancer with Windows or whatever, he kind of fell on his sword in a very Nippon sense. When's the last time you saw an American CEO offer megabucks restitution for screwing up the company they were entrusted by the shareholders with running? Usually, they only take their snouts out of the options trough long enough to scream for more salary before jumping to another luckless company.

sega & commodore

[InsaneCreator]

Yet during his tenure, Sega paid little attention to marketing. "The idea was, 'if the product is good, it will sell itself'," recalls one former manager.

As far as I remember Commodore had the same policy about marketing. And we all know what happend to them. Now, at the time when marketing is the most important thing, something like this was inevitable.

This is annoying

[saider]

Then there was the network connection: a modem would raise manufacturing costs by about ¥3,000-¥4,000 a console but most executives agreed that US gamers, at least, would pay no more than $199 (£140).

Well, this is particularly annoying. I hate it when journalists throw in all kinds of different units, apparantly at random. And how the hell did pounds come into the picture. She didn't use them before in the article.

Unless it is in a quote, all units should be converted to the same system. I see reporters mix gallons with liters and pounds with kilos all the time. I guess they don't remember their high school chemistry or physics lessons very well. Either that or they really want to flex their character set and type the '¥' character. How often does one get to do that?

I'm just making mountians out of molehills.

Re:This is annoying

[topham]

Problem is, the price of consoles depends on where it is sold, hence quoting it's price in a given currency. It is a little annoying, a comparison chart should be included, and a note as to why the prices are given as such.). I'm Canadian, and spent almost 2 months in the U.S. recently, I noticed that the price of pop/soda (Pepsi/Coke...) was higher than in Canada. Well, the 'price' was almost the same, but, if you factored in the current exchange rate it was probably 25%-30% more expensive to buy it in the U.S. (Actually, almost everything which is under $25 is more expensive in the U.S. after doing a price conversion; above $25 it varies depending on product category)

This was -1 offtopic?!

[slaytanic killer]

Interesting. Will the moderator mod me down? It didn't have much pleasant imagery, but it was quite on the spot.

Re:name a single good PS2 game

[jgerman]

Not true, I am neither a teenager, nor a teenager in an adault body (no more so than any other 25 year old who plays video games). Like I said give it time. I really liked Master of Bushido, and have been playing a lot of Onimusha, I'd play the PS2 more if I didn't have a computer. I'd buy a DC if I knew it was going to be supported. I enjoy games, and stating that one particular platform is bad is making a generality that is hard to prove. There have been very few systems that completely bombed, and neither DC nor PS2 is one of them.

Oldies

[JohnnyKnoxville]

It saddens me about Sega's situation, but as long as I have my Atari to play Missile Command, I am a happy camper.

Dreamcast Dreamhardware

[topham]

I just purchased a Dreamcast a few weeks ago, was away for a month and needed something to do in my spare time. I figured the $100 was well spent even thought it was discontinued. (I spent a lot of time playing Resident Evil 2).

The graphics are great, the controller is decent (some people have complained, but I despise most other controllers, so this one isn't bad).

What I want is a PC-Hardware compatibility catridge.. something I can plug my VGA monitor, my keyboard, and mouse into. Why? (Dreamcast has VGA out with an awkward pinnout). All of this is available seperately, but I'd love the whole set in one little box.

And I'd like to find the 10baseT adapter somewhere...

My last item on my wishlist is an MP3 player that is good enough I could drop my Dreamcast in the trunk to play MP3s in my car. (The hardware is damn near perfect for such a concept; really, at $100 it is cheap, the controllers are high-speed serial (2mbit) and support an LCD panel (in VMU) already. So, a little redesign and rebuild and one should have a faceplate with easy, full controls... now if I could only hack hardware.

Broad Band Adapter - $60 @ sega.com

[rhinoX]

I just ordered one, and got it in three days. You can't buy them anywhere beyond their site.

It's awesome.

Yup

[Galvatron]

You pretty much hit the nail on the head. The Japanese have had GDP growth of about 9% annually in the period from 1850 to 1985. Compare that to average US growth in the same period of 2.5-3%. The Japanese were willing to spend their whole lives working, and saved all the money they made (two sure ways to economic success).

Unfortunately, they never created a solid business model. Hard work and frugality will get you a long way, but with their concept of lifetime employment people often ended up in the wrong jobs, were unproductive, and spent more time posturing than working.

They also have no idea how to deal with the international community. They tend to deal with businessmen from other countries as though they were Japanese, and so they fail miserably. Look at how they handled DC. It was doing fairly well here in America. Why not merely discontinue production in Japan? Or if they don't want to deal with it themselves, why not spin off a DC America company?

Anyway, the disaster that is Japan is one of the strongest arguments in favor of free markets and a well designed democracy there is.

Re:Yup

[Noehre]

That is total tripe.

The Japanese were willing to spend their whole lives working, and saved all the money they made (two sure ways to economic success).

This was hardly the case. The Japanese during the 80's threw money around like it was nothing. Then again, they could do this because they had enormous amounts of money flooding the country. But to say that they economy was good because people saved alot is quite wrong.

Anyway, the disaster that is Japan is one of the strongest arguments in favor of free markets and a well designed democracy there is.

And why is that? Japan went into a recession for the same reason that the American tech industry is getting pounded today. The Japanese built this "bubble" economy that simply as not self sustaining. The same thing happened with the tech industry. All it takes in these situations is one little event to cause the bubble to burst. In the case of the Japanese economy, it started with a collapse of land prices. Then the banks went under. The same thing can (and does) happened in every country (the US included).

you have no idea

[Kragma]

Consoles have never been made out of entirely custom chips. That's way too expensive, even for Sony.

NES, Genesis and SNES all had off-the-shelf CPU designs. They all also featured custom graphics chips. The reason SNES was "better" was because it was nearly three years younger than Genesis. Saturn used off-the-shelf CPUs (SH-2s) and three custom graphics chips. N64 used a MIPS R4000 CPU (old SGI design) and custom graphics (also by SGI), PSX used an R3000 (even older SGI design) and custom graphics. PS2 uses a R5000 (reletively dated SGI design) as the CPU. Gamecube is using a PowerPC.

Dreamcast fits this too. There was a PC version of the 3D tech used in DC, but make no mistake, the DC version of the PowerVR2 was the first. Considering the cost of the machine, Dreamcast still outclases PS2. There isn't a PS2 game out there that looks better than DC's best. They may come, but Dreamcast's hardware was never part of the equation. The hardware, and the tools to use it, are the best out there in terms of price and performance.

Why do you think the machine has become a hacker's favorite toy?

Re:At least it'll make a good MP3 Server...

[Anonymous Coward]

this isn't offtopic.. fuck you mods...

Dreamcast's failure is all my fault. Sorry...

[weave]

I jinxed the console. I predicted it's death the day I bought one at midnight on 9/9/99.

You see, any console I buy fails. Any console I don't purchase succeeds.

My history:

• Nintendo NES: Didn't buy one. Was interested in something that blew the socks off of NES. It was the...
• 3DO: $700 when it first came out, but I waited until it dropped to only $400. Soon after I purchased it, it was clear it was doomed due to the success of...
• Playstation: I never got one. It's been a ragging success. I figured I'd wait for the next generation of gaming system which was:
• Nintendo 64: Super Mario 64 was just so incredible at the time. I had to get one. Games dribbled out, and most of them sucked. They all looked like Super Mario 64 but with a different script. The only decent game I ever bought was Zelda 64. An incredible title. But I felt like N64 was a loser system. So I set out to find a new love. It was...
• Sega Dreamcast: I got my hands on a Japanesse model in early 99 and was blown away. Couldn't wait until 9/9/99 to get my own. I had heard about this PS2 thing coming out, but figured that history would doom it. Atari was once a dominant game system but never repeated it. Nintendo was #1 with NES but never recovered that title. So this "PS2" thing just had to fail. I figured, screw the PS2, I'll get me a Dreamcast. Sigh...
• Playstation 2: So now the PS2 is selling as fast as they can make them. Even though many say the Dreamcast is still a better system, it's now dead. Well, I'm not buying a PS2. Instead I think I'll wait and buy a...
• X Box: If anyone from Microsoft is reading this, I'll consider a large cash bribe not to buy your box. But I think I will anyway. Microsoft deserves to be a victim of my curse...

Re:Dreamcast's failure is all my fault. Sorry...

[donglekey]

Don't worry man, your luck is about to change, there is no way the PS2 will succeed now, and if you want a sure winner, go with the gameboy advance when it comes out! (or buy one from Japan for $180).

Re:Dreamcast's failure is all my fault. Sorry...

[MattW]

I think the only real question is: did Nintendo maybe bury a Sega Genesis in your backyard, or something?

Re:Dreamcast's failure is all my fault. Sorry...

[Koldark]

Please buy one, then it will flop like I have predicted from day one. Hmm...Blue Screen of Death just before you finish the game... perfect place for a "feature".

Re:Dreamcast's failure is all my fault. Sorry...

[__aawwih8715]

N64 was far from a failure. It has lots of great games you probably haven't played.

Try:
Donky Kong 64
Conker's Bad Fur Day (amazing game!)
007 Goldeneye
Perfect Dark
The New Tetris (best music i've ever heard in a game and great gameplay)
Banjo Kazooie
Banjo Tooie
Ogre Battle 64 (hear good things)
Mario Kart 64 (best of genre by a margin)
Zelda: Majora's Mask
shall i go further?
Ok...
Mario Tennis (really fun)
mario golf
mario party 1,2,3
super smash brothers

Most of these can be gotten for very little money.
You can get used copys for about 20-30 dollars.

Re:Dreamcast's failure is all my fault. Sorry...

[weave]

...did Nintendo maybe bury a Sega Genesis in your backyard, or something?

Hmm, no. But I did rent a Mega drive system from a corner shop while visiting friends in the UK several years ago...

Re:Everybody knows everything about the game indus

[king-manic]

Not a bad buisness model, except they dropped it after 8months and 6 games. there by alienating 60-80% of their user base and they never recovered from this. I know as a child about half of my friends had a sega and the other half had nintendo's. after the 32x 100% of us had a n64 and/or playstation but no one bought a saturn of a dreamcast because we all knew that sega would just rape our asses for money.

it's cos they always have to be first to market

[psyklopz]

sega always goes out first with the 'next gen' machines. they did it with genesis and they did it with saturn then dreamcast. that just lets the competition sit back and see what technogoies they can steal and out-do from sega. if sega would just sit back and let someone else push ahead for a change, they might have a better chance.

IT DEFINITELY IS.

[dave-fu]

I mean, no mention of DC Linux? Christ. What the fuck was the guy thinking, informing us that we can transform our Dreamcasts into a low-cost MP3 server that people might be interested in in response to a story about Dreamcasts?

Skies of Arcadia

[Thag]

An instant-classic RPG, just a lot of fun. Sky Pirates! Flying battleships! Ship-to-ship combat! A game world that actually feels as big as it's supposed to be!

If it had fewer annoying random encounters, and a better variety of monsters (why do I always feel like I'm fighting a salad?), it would be perfect.

Jon

bungled the Dreamcast?

[NixterAg]

Phantasy Star Online
Sega GT
Test Drive Lemans
Metropolis Street Racer
Sonic Adventure
Jet Grind Radio
Crazy Taxi
Resident Evil: Code Veronica
Shenmue
Grandia II
Skies of Arcadia
NFL 2K1
NBA 2K1
Daytona USA 2001
F355 Challenge
Quake III
Unreal Tournament
Soul Calibur
Virtua Tennis

If games like these are the result of bungling a system, we can only hope that PS2 or X-Box can completely goof in their efforts to give us a decent console.

There is no better time to get a Dreamcast. Systems and games are cheap (I found my system and many of my games used), and the Dreamcast has perhaps the best library of games (considering the size of the library) for any system, ever.

Don't forget, we still have Sonic Adventure 2, Crazy Taxi 2, Phantasy Star Online v.2, NFL 2k2, Virtua Tennis 2, Floigan Bros., Headhunter, Shenmue II, Outrigger, Alone in the Dark, and many many more to look forward to.

Re:bungled the Dreamcast?

[MwtrV]

Flaws I noticed in some DC games:

Unreal tournament has MAJOR slowdown issues.

SegaGT had just about the most akward control I've ever found in a racing game. Really, really horrible. I can't imagine enjoying that game, EVER.

Metropolis Street Racer has that damn KUDOS concept that makes it impossible to advance unless you want to kiss the games ass for hours. But, Metropolis Street Racer does have an excellent feel to it, so that makes up, partially.

Sonic Adventure has a bad camera system; reviewers have complained. and, I might add, why puzzles?? Couldn't we have had just mindless sonic action like the 16 bit days?

MDK2, while not mentioned on the above list, was highly rated, but the controls are so akward and non-customizable I didn't even bother playing it much. The directional movement is done with the buttons on the right hand side rather then the digital movement pad/button. Inane.

Other then those gripes, the DC games are solid. My favourites are in the list you mentioned. Crazi Taxi is a blast, and so was Soul Calibur. Another thing amazing about the Dreamcast is it's fullscreen MPEG playing; very impressive.

Dreamcast rocks

[DayGlo]

I bought my dreamcast about 1 week before i heard they were going to stop producing them, so i paid full price but it was worth my money. Unreal tournament and quake 3 are so fun to play on a big tv instead of a monitor.

less than 50 a pop?

[vjlen]

Not when the console came out. They were $50/pop, with an occasional one for $40 (like Soul Calibur)
Just like the PS2 when it came out.

Did Bleem actually get released? I never saw it.

Agreed: try Mad Katz

[Thag]

I had the same problem with the stock Sega pad, especially the D-pad, but I got a Mad Katz third-party controller, and all that went away.

I actually prefer the Mad Katz Dreamcast controller to the Playstation/PS2 analog controllers! The analog joystick is more responsive, for one thing. This is saying a lot, because the PSX/PS2 controller was previously the best I had ever seen!

Only slight problem was that the Mad Katz VMU port took a little while to break in before it worked reliably.

Jon

Depends on your definition of "make"

[vjlen]

I highly doubt anyone will be developing any more games for Dreamcast at this point. Those games that are near completion will be finished, those in production will depend on the strength of the developer.

Printing games onto Dreamcast CDs and packing them for retail will continue for quite some time.

Those Geniuses at Wired

[tb3]

The thing I remember most about Sega is the issue of "Wired" magazine a few years ago with Sonic the Hedgehog on the cover. The feature article was about how Sega was going to rule the games world, blow Sony away, destroy Nintendo, etc.
And you wonder why I gave up reading "Wired".
-----------------

Invalid browser?

[deadl0ck]

I went to read that story and the site redirected me to a page to update my browser to nescape or IE.

Anyone know where I can get netscape for my Dreamcast? /sarcasm...

Anyhow, I hit back, then stop and I was able to read the story on my Dreamcast anyhow. I hate sites that expect you to only have one of two browsers.
--

Re:name a single good PS2 game

[interiot]

stating that one particular platform is bad is making a generality that is hard to prove

Consoles can differ in many ways: power, developer relations, and ease of programming, among others. All of which can contribute to on average higher or lower quality games.

PS2 is initially worse off on the ease-of-programming bit, but who knows what the future holds?
--

Brand Loyalty

[Decimal]

> Sega sales had been lagging for years, and then > they just basically died after the ill-fated > Saturn. Dreamcast was a great platform from > what I understand, but Sega jst didn't have the > capitol or instant brand loyalty of that > Nintendo and Sony command nowadays I can imagine that there were a lot of people who abandoned Sega after a poor experience with the 32X.

Price?

[Decimal]

Games on the Dreamcast were about $10 more than the same port on competing systems. Personally, I think they're worth it, but the price probably had a big effect on who purchased the Dreamcast.

Re:Price?

[suraklin]

I agree the extra cost is worth it. Best example of this is Tony Hawk Pro Skater 1 & 2. I bought the PSone version first and had to buy the DC version when it came out.

Sega's problem: excessive creativity

[tgibbs]

I think that what ultimately killed the Dreamcast was Sega's willingness to allow its software development teams great latitude for creativity. The problem was that, like many creative people, they were not particularly interested in rehashing their old work--they wanted to push the envelope.

For example, Sega had an old RPG series, Phantasy Star, that was extraordinarily popular. And when Sega released the Dreamcast, they announced plans for a new RPG in which players would be able to visit virtually any place in an entire city, and interact with numerous nonplayer characters as they go independently through their daily lives. Now the smart thing to do would have been to tie these innovations to a familiar concept, like Phantasy Star, but instead, they decided to do an entirely new type of RPG--a modern-day kung-fu RPG. They invested a huge amount of money into the project, and while it received a fair amount of critical praise, it was never the system-seller Sega had hoped for. What was really needed was for a manager to say, "Kung Fu RPG? Great idea! Tell you what--do a sequel to Phantasy Star, try out some of the concepts in a series that our customers already know and like, and if it's a big success, you can do the Kung Fu game next." Eventually, Sega got around to doing a Phantasy Star game--as an online title, no less--but too late to save the DC.

Similarly, Sega let one of their top developers spend his time creating an incredibly realistic Ferrari racing sequel--so accurate that most players found the cars too difficult to handle. Again, what was badly needed was a manager willing to say, "Good idea, but let's put it on the back burner until we have new Dreamcast games in the Nights, Virtua Fighter, Panzer Dragoon, and Daytona series."

Creativity and willingness to take risks has always been Sega's strong point. But what we saw with the Dreamcast (and the Saturn before it) was a company that was unable to compromise its ideals, even when its back was to the wall.

I'll tell you why the DreamCast is better then PS2

[tyrannical666]

The DreamCast is better then PS2 because: 1: $99 vs $299 2: The BEST sports games on any console, virtua Tennis, NFL 2k1, NBA 2k1 3: The BEST RPGS, Skys of Arcadia, Phantasy Star Online, Record of Lodoss (far better then Diablo), Shenmue 4: The BEST fight games (all things Capcom) 5: The BEST driving games, Crazy Taxi, Daytona, Metroplis Street Racer, F355 6: The BEST action games, Jet Grind Radio 7: The BEST FPS, Quacke 3, Unreal. With no modem, the PS2 version sucks! 8: It has a modem and games that support it Really, the Dreamcast is cheaper, has far better games then the PS2, it has a modem, and the graphics and sounds are near identical to the PS2. The best PS2 game still doesn't look better then the best DC game. If only Sega started putting out online games 6 months earlier it may have really caught on. PSonline is incredible, the fact that you can chat with people who don't speak your own language using the ingame features is really ahead of it's time.

To everyone who says PS2 sucks, read this

[Amon CMB]

Go play the recently released Metal Gear Solid 2 demo and try to say PS2 sucks. You physically won't be able to.

Re:To everyone who says PS2 sucks, read this

[iainl]

Technically, there is nothing wrong with the PS2's internals, although they are indeed crap when compared to what we were hyped to expect (no surprise there; the thing would have had to make a GeForce2 look like a Voodoo2 to live up to its hype). The problem I (and many others) have with the machine is that the games currently available are dire almost without exception, and the best looking thing out there is a 1 level demo for a game that is scheduled to arrive around about the same time Halo for XBox does. From a number of polys a second viewpoint the ps2 beats the Dreamcast hands down. From a number of games worth buying position, the PS2 doesn't have a leg to stand on.

dreamcast very popular in US

[Gizzmonic]

I disagree with the Financial times article, as the DC sold more on its launch date than the saturn did in its first year. It has a healthy installed base of about 6 million units in the US(more since the $99 price drop). The problem is, it didn't hit big in Japan for a number or reasons (recession, expensive internet, PS2's DVD capability). Sega could have survived on the US and European market, but they wanted to cash in-and believe me, they will. I wish them luck, but I wish they would have supported my DC a little longer... :(

What Does This Mean For Hitachi?

[Max Entropy]

The Dreamcast was powered by the SH-4 micro. It was a nice little piece of silicon. I wonder what the Dreamcast's demise means for the SH?

I was speaking longer term

[Galvatron]

Yes, there was a bubble in the 80's. But what about the period from 1850 to 1980? Their economy was still growing at more than double the rate of the US over that period. That was what I was speaking of when I referred to their high savings rate and long work hours. High savings rate lowers interest rates, which fuels economic growth. Lack of investment capital is what keeps many 3rd world countries where they are.

As for why they need a freer society, look at their continued inability to recover from their depression. It's been 10 years since the collapse, and the Nikkei is at what, 13,000? (Down from a high of around 40,000.) I believe that this is due in a large part to the deep links between their government and their industry, though I suppose others may disagree.

Donut forget Turok

[MattW]

Both of the Turok games were pretty fun, too. (not the 3rd, which was BS deathmatch)

Re:Dreamcast sucks.

[yerktoader]

Really? Somehow this makes the dreamcast suck? Lest we forget Soulcalibur? It's too bad that Namco is going to forgo the DC and release SC2 on the PS2. Considering the PS2's conventional archetechure for graphics, overdraw might be a problem....I hope so, because it would give me another reason to laugh at Sony....

Sony: "....the PS2 will have 4 times the power of a Pentium III 700 mhz processor."

The doubtful press: "Ummmm....yeah. Why don't we believe that?"

Sony: "Ummmm...maybe because it really has the power of a PIII 600. Yeah."

Press: "And the software DVD decoder?"

Sony: "Oh yeah....Give us a sec to buy up all the available parts...And decrease the available units to 500,000."

Press and public: "Well, gee. That sucks."

Sony: "Well, we're still better than Sega."

Press: "What about the fact that almost all of your games suck?"

Sony: "Oh yeah. Well, most folks just go with brand name identification anyway."

Sega: "Gee, wish we saw the use behind marketing....Oh well."

Sega Fans: "Not again..."

Ps2 Definately does suck

[psilocin]

Trust me, I have to code for the damn thing, it may have a pretty purple box, but on the inside its just plain ugly. Not in a "we can get better" kind of way, but more of a "by the time we have figured out to make the ps2 sing, the Xbox will have blown it completely out of the water" kind of way. Its just too difficuly to code for, its not very fast, bugger all video ram, a truly shitty sound chip (want to see two ps1 sound chips sandwiched together ? its the ps2's worst feature), and the development tools are, well, complete shite. As a developer, I can assure you, as far a graphics go, nothing will beat/equal the Xbox, save a PC with a geForce III ( which is basically what the xBox is ) - Frustrated ps2 developer - This is probably not the opinion of my employer, but it is definately the opinion of a large chunk of my co-workers ;)

Sarcasm? What's that?

[dave-fu]

Beats me! Ha ha!

Saturn, a mistake?

[Ashleigh]

You never played Steep Slope Sliders, did you?
Truly a brilliant game. Daytona was also pretty cool game. I could go on, but that's not really the point.

In Australia, I only once saw any advertising for the Saturn, I basically only knew it existed due to reviews in gaming magazines (that is, of course until I bought one)
IMHO, the Saturn was never a mistake, I believe it came out a while before the PS did, It had some great games (while I'm on that point again, Street Fighter Vs. X-Men! Woo!) and if you got a card thingee for it, you could watch VCDs through it.
It was never truly popular due to lack of advertising, and never generated enough interest.

My $0.02 (AU, approximately nothing in US$ at the moment) anyway

The Road goes ever on and on,
Down from the door where it began.