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Hailstorm: Changing Society's Privacy Infrastructure
chikanamakalaka writes: "I found an article at the Seattle Times about Microsoft's upcoming "Hailstorm" service and associated privacy concerns. The story is here."
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However, a brief summary:
So you see, it's not difficult. Like they say in the article, it just requires integration between the relevant agencies.
This was discussed at length in a previous Slashdot article here, anyway. Talk about re-hashing old things!
God damnit, anti-Microsoft jokes are the foundation of Slashdot!! They'll always be funny!! Always, I say!
Implanted defibrillators with long-range 'cellular' uplink are only a few years off, btw.
I know people working on it.
Bartko
Welcome to the Car Accident Wizard. This wizard helps you when you just got into a car accident. Please click Next when you are ready to continue.
Select Type of Accident. Select the kind of accident you were just involved in and click Next to continue.
I just hit a pedestrian.
I just hit another car.
I was just run over by an SUV.
(I worked hard on an ASCII picture of a GPF but the Slashdot lameness filter rejected it. Try to imagine yourself a box that says "MSCARA32.EXE has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down.")
Wouldn't it be better to write a HTTP proxy to add this header? Then all browsers could use it.
Think about the business intelligence that Microsoft is going to gain by doing this. Do you think that all that information is going to just sit there?
This is somewhat like saying that people will forego web-based email in favor of keeping their email *private* in personalized servers at home which they will access with their fat pipes. Granted, when hotmail debuted, there was no broadband access (and there still isn't for most people), but that's missing the point. Information SHOULD be location neutral and be equally accesible from anywhere. I bank online, and that is no less of a privacy concern than HailStorm, with the exception that people tend to trust MS less (for a variety of good reasons/FUD). Providing access to my data globally is a *good* thing. Most lay users couldn't be bothered less with the location of their data if they were guranteeed secure, global access along with enhanced services.
To place all your personal information and communication eggs in one basket, then rely solely upon an id/password pair for authentication is loopy.
johnpaulwallington.com
That humans would actually be willing to pay for Big Brother. I have a feeling that reality in 5-10 years will be worse than he ever imagined. How's this for a scenario: I go in for my yearly physical. The doctor runs some tests and finds I have colon cancer. At the speed of light my employer is notified, my insurance company is notified, my insurance is dropped, and I start receiving unsolicited spam from quacks trying to sell me 'miracle' cancer cures. Oh boy, I can't wait!
"If you are in a car accident, HailStorm could automatically send your medical history and insurance information to the hospital before the ambulance arrived. Then it could page your spouse and reschedule your appointments."
reminds me of the giddy plans that ermerged during
the height of the Bubble to have your fridge
know when you run low on milk and send the order
on to the grocery store.
Unwieldy, unnecessary, and just plain dumb.
Not everything needs to be automated.
Boneheds like Gates think that everything that is
not integrated into an all encompassing networked database is an ineffieciency.
Well, mountains are ineffiecencies ( to trains and farms) as are bathroom breaks to PHB.
Lets hear it for ineffiecency and limits on human
ambition and stupidity.
"Still, having a single company in control of so much information....." is absolute madness.
The stupidest idea I ever (bar none) heard of.
Ok, maybe it's not true that everything I needed to know I learned in Kindergarten.
I guess it wasn't till Grade 3 that I heard about
not putting all my eggs in one basket.
"Eventually, the service will be able to watch and listen to computer users in their homes and offices, so it knows when they are busy and when to...."
and when to squeal to the PHB, send you an email
that you are to report to the remotivation depot.
Plainly put, fuck you , Microsoft.
Who asked you to be the Grand Repository?
And the really irritating thing is that there are
problabley several dozen different better ways of delivering many of these so called benefits, which
respect an individual's privacy and
that don't require catering to MS insatiable
need to be all controlling.
Did I say Fuck You, Microsoft?
Someone who's dumb enough to lock his keys in, in that situation, is most likely dumb enough to have locked in the cell phone too.
Momma says stupid is as stupid does.
--
Simon
The only reason Microsoft has you over a barrel then, as it were, is because you allow it to remain so. You can't blame that entirely on Microsoft. If you wanted to change that, it's all a matter of informing yourself.
Of course, it seems for most Americans, that'd be too much work. However, don't try to make me feel bad about it. It's not _my_ fault. (Though it is everyone's problem.)
_____
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
I know many people who do. A long-time family friend, who used to work for IBM, and who saw up-close how Microsoft has, and does, jerk around its "corporate partners" and customers, happily trusts Microsoft software for his desktops and servers. I think it's nuts, myself. He also, unfortunately, believes in Microsoft tech support (which I've had the debatable joy of dealing with, and can say firsthand is completely and utterly worthless).
Also, the "average Joe" out there doesn't really understand what Microsoft did/does/is doing that's so bad. Being as non-technical as they are, they don't understand why anyone would think they're bad guys. They think that MS is trying to make the world a better place. And I suppose some people at Microsoft even believe that.
So yes, many people believe Microsoft has their best interests at heart. I don't buy it, but there are people who do.
_____
Sam: "That was needlessly cryptic."
Max: "I'd be peeing my pants if I wore any!"
UIUC, like many other large universities, recently signed a "pouring rights" contract with a major soft drink vendor that essentially makes it illegal to sell any drink on campus unless it is a product of that vendor. In exchange for a cut of the loot, of course.
Now, when universities start selling "installing rights" contracts to software vendors, will your little group be outlawed?
sPh
Almost. The core tenet of UI is to make things more powerful and easier to use; part of the power is just unlocked by the ease of getting to it. But to actually suck away people's abilities to put tools to uses that the designers couldn't've imagined is quite contrary to good usability. If MS effectively controls microcomputing and PCs are turned into little more than terminals, that does not empower users.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
It's called "Hailstorm" 'cause of the hailstorm of targeted spam that you'll be subjected to from Microsoft's "Enterprise Partners", or whatever they decide to call them.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Government employees who violate the privacy protections promised by the Bureau of the Census get to go to jail. Anybody think Microsoft and their accomplices in this will stand idly by while Congress passes laws that protect our info with jail for the humans and financial ruin for the corporations?
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
People tend To the path of least resistence if this service does what it is promise then microsoft will have a winner there. Like it or not it will be the masses that decide whether this flies ot not. Microsoft has a great marketing arm they and then general public tends to be sheep(I hope this does not get that many flames). People will buy into this that it is a great way to stream line your life make it easier on yourself of 20 dollars a month we can make your life so much easier. I see alot of peole using this service BECAUSE it is from micro$haft. Well these are my thoughts. Please post different points of views.
You forget that this is the Seattle Times that this article came from. They are one of the biggest Microsoft sycophants in existence, but I guess they have to take care not to bite the hand that feeds them.
Expression recognition software, combined with the top window's context, may someday post these for you. Aren't you glad?
Stop me if I missed anything, but Microsoft are proposing to monitor everything down to your very facial expressions, leaving George Orwell not so much awed as flabbergasted by the possibilities, and they're going to use your own hardware to do this, and it's all going through Microsoft's own centralised database, and, gee, people used to be worried about governments monitoring boring stuff like their emails, and the possibility of crackers getting copies...
They're going to know more about how you think and feel than you do yourself. Microsoft?
Think about this... the multi-billion-dollar company who can't even protect their own website against a script kiddie... the people who brought you Internet ``where did your data go today'' Explorer and the beloved ``I'm feeling lucky - let's run this'' Outlook... and I'm supposed to trust them with pictures of me, an intimate knowledge of my very thought patterns, every key I hit, every word I read?
Think about this... look interested in an image - or a competitor's product, Microsoft knows it; be angered or pleased by something, Microsoft knows it; do or say something technically illegal or embarrassing, Microsoft knows it; recieve unexpected cash income, Microsoft knows it; fart, and the camera/mike will forward your muscle patterns and noise to Microsoft; hop into the hammock with your SO and you'd better have remembered to switch off the pickups - and... will they really be off...?
You'd have to be a nutter. A goldfish in a shopping mall would have more privacy. Millions of JenniCams plus the ability to fastforward to the juicy bits. If you happen to be pretty, expect to have a lot of hopefully secret admirers. If your personal beliefs aren't mainstream, maybe they soon will be. ``And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.'' - Revelation 13:16-18 - I wonder if the Passport ID has 666 coded into it somewhere? )-:
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Dateline 13 September 2002. Today the MicroSoft corporation changes it name to Omni Consumer Products (OCP). Chairman Bill Gates states "Trust us, we know is best for you".
I presonally know that no_one@nowhere.com is getting a lot of spam that was intended for me
That's funny - I usually use someone@somewhere.com
ABSURDITY, n.: A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion.
OK, so if I get in a car accident, it'll call my spouse, send my medical records, and reschedule my appointments.
How do I tell it? Are we going to wire my car with Hailstorm, too? I drive a friggin 1991 Bronco II, not exactly a tremendous technology platform. OK, maybe my WinCE Pocket PC will do it for me; hope the paramedics know how. No, better yet, I'll let them spend their time keeping me out of shock.
I'm all for "changing society's infrastructure", but c'mon.
ZOMG I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS ON MACINTOSH VERSUS WINDOWS, VI VERSUS EMACS, AND HOW YOU'RE NOT A DORK
I'd be surprised -- very surprised -- if a medical records system based on a Microsoft-written OS or application could pass muster with regards to the access controls and tracking required by HIPAA. And that's not even getting into the problems related to the multitude of vulnerabilities that are built into the various versions of Windows. If I found out that my medical records were being accessed by a Microsoft computer? Well, that's about the time I'd think about becoming a Christian Scientist.
IMHO, Microsoft is years away from having a secure enough system for me to trust them with even my personal calendar let alone my family's financial and medical history.
--
CUR ALLOC 20195.....5804M
Trading aspects of personal information in order to get a benefit is evil? You mean like using a credit card, putting a return address on an envelope, having yourself listed in the phone book (oops, this usually only applies to those of us not living with mommy)? You must either be incredibly clueless or live a pretty sad and paranoid little life. Who knows, maybe even both.
Cheers,
You actually act like you think you're some kind of badass by saying "Fuck you" to Microsoft. I'd like you to seriously think about it and let me know why anyone there would care about the opinion of someone like you. Calling Bill Gates a "bonehed" was pretty entertaining, too. Yeah, that's telling him! It's always hilarious to see some young screwup who has never amounted to anything in his life go after one of the most successful businessmen of all time (yep, the kiddies will squeal loudly at that one; of course, they thought Linux related stock was a good idea, too) and tell 'em that they don't know what they're talking about. You, sir, are a true genius. Since you're an AC, I can only guess at the kind of salary a man of your worth must earn. You know and I know that you've never amounted to anything in your life. Suck on that. :)
Cheers,
So in other words, you're a luddite. Want a reward or something?
Cheers,
Phone companies don't need to do that, the information's right there in the phone book or online databases for the lifting — your name, your number, your address, and whether or not you live in a good part of town (read: have dough to spend). To some people, giving up the personal information has a net positive effect, because it's much easier for people to get hold of them, whereas a lot of single women or people with names ripe for the pranking, decide that it's not worth the benefit, so they keep their numbers unlisted. As for return addresses, there are certain locations to which I send mail that I don't want it made clear to everyone who will be handling the mail that it's coming from me. The rest of the time, I'll give up that personal info to gain the benefit of the mail being returned to me if something goes wrong along the way.
And I totally agree with the "don't want it, don't use it" idea. Microsoft's system, and any system that anyone else comes out with, is going to be much more convenient for people to use, but it's up to the users to decide whether or not they want certain personal information available through it. Don't want that copy of Nude Midget Jugglers to show up on your credit card? Pay cash. Don't want a similar purchase to go through PassPort? Don't use the PassPort Wallet feature to buy it online. If you're really paranoid about it (of course, it's going to be on your credit card, anyway, unless you plan on sending a cashier's check), log out of PassPort first. I've yet to see one of the PassPort partners requiring you to even have a PassPort account to buy things from them.
Cheers,
I suggest using something that sends a message. I always use no_privacy_policy@<whatever their domain is>, or unacceptable_privacy_policy@<whatever>, or simply that_info_is_private@<whatever>. That way, the email isn't just bounced without an explanation, but there's a chance that someone at the company will see the objection and maybe even note it if it happens enough. Same with meatspace places like Radio Shack. When they ask for your name/address, don't waste everyone's time (especially your own) by giving out a made-up address, tell them flat out that you don't give that information out. Go further and tell them that you don't like being asked for it, if that's how you feel. At least someone there will know, and you eventually might never get asked again.
Cheers,
When I first read the article, it sounded like it would be incredibly convenient and make many tedious tasks very easy...
Then, what if someone hijacks your account... they now have your credit card numbers, your home phone, your wife's phone, your kids school info, your bosses office number and his birthday, your automobile information, etc...
Imagine the possabilities...
Maybe it's called HailStorm because, as they say, "When it rains, it pours" implying that if someone gets your password, they get your life.
Think about it, it can be scary as hell.
You know... I've been trying to find simple ways to stay more anonymous, to protect my privacy in the online and real world, without inconveniencing myself too much, and without being paranoid. Here are a few of my thoughts for consideration.
Bills. This one is not entirely privacy related, but you can see how it could lead there. I was at a friends when a lady from the electricity company came by to tell him that he hadn't paid his bill (his roommate forgot or something I guess) and that his power would be cut off at 4pm (a couple hours away) unless he paid immediately. He grumbled, said okay, and fetched his wallet. He asked how much, she said something around 50 dollars. He pulled 50 out of his wallet and said 'here you go. Sorry for the inconvenience'. She said 'Oh sir! I'm sorry. I can't accept cash, I can only accept a cheque or major credit card'.
What's that? Cash is supposed to be 'legal tender for the payment of all debts, public and private'. Hmm.
Which leads me to.. hotels. Now, I *do* have a credit card.. but I always try to check into hotels with cash only. I mean, why shouldn't I be able to? It's the only real legal tender we have in this country. Here's what I find. Usually, they get really upset at first. Then they say they won't let me use the phone or watch movies without a deposit. Usually they are really nervous about asking for a deposit as well. I told one guy 'how much? 50 bucks? 500 bucks? Just spit it out...'. You see, I don't care how much it is. But these people are unable to do business with cash! It's quite scary.
Bank machines. I don't use debit/credit/atm's everywehre I go. I carry a decent amount of cash on me most of the time.
The common theme here is cash. I put pressure on people to accept cash as payment, whether they like it or not. I'll be damned if I'm going to feel put out because I'm spending the *only legal tender I know of*.
Another thing: People asking or my name. Radio shack,pay-as-you-go cellular phones, everything else. Anytime any clerk asks for my name, I say 'Why?' and also 'Do I have to tell you?'. Usually the answer is 'no sir, you don't'. If they insist, I politely leave my purchase on the counter and walk out of the store.
Email addresses. I don't worry about this one as much, believe it or not. Once it gets out there, people have it forever.. so you might as well not fight it.
Internet. Folks, for the purposes of privacy, you shoudl always consider the Internet a public medium. Every packet you generate is going to go places you don't control. You should *not* have an expectation of privacy. Use encryption if you care. I use pgp for messages that have sensitive information in them, and otherwise, I don't send anything sensitive.
It depends on the site and what client I'm using. I do most of my web browsing from windows and many of the FTP clients have default email addresses they use for passswords. For example, i think Getright uses "getright@getright.com" or something like that.
On sites that I am reasonably certain will not use my email address for evil purposes I will use my real address when using a text-based ftp client.
I have been known to use "webmaster@microsoft.com" every once in a while...
Or they could just use fake information. I presonally know that no_one@nowhere.com is getting a lot of spam that was intended for me, had I been stupid enough to give my real email address to every web site that asks for it. I never give more information to a web site than is actually required. Does NAI actually think I am going to give them my real name and mailing address before I download PGP? Same with the New York Times.
Dear Microsoft:
Please stop trying to personalize everything. I'm buying computer parts, or books, or what-have-you, not "experiences". I make my own experiences.
The MS Passport terms were only changed for those whose primary browser language is US English. Change your preference to have your preferred language be British English, Spanish, Portuguese, or whatever other languages you know...then go read the Passport Terms again.
The standard for a nonexistent address is "example.com", "example.net", or "example.org". RFC 2606
Rest assured that there are going to be plenty of systems that are going to sprout up that will do the same things. And when you stop and think about it, a lot of it is going to be pretty cool. I really would like a competent secretary I can pay $50-100 a year for! I'm sure the next big problem is going to be the interop of all of those systems.
Heeey, are you trying to impersonate my forged identity?
Its sorta sad tho, messing with the personal info has become such a habit that I regularly screw it up even when the requester has a legit reason, or where you can even opt out of registering.
Sure, I believe MS is going to do exactly what they feel like, if you are ever in a position where they need you for something. If they can forge evidence and show to a courtroom what makes you think theyd even think twice about that?
But never mind that. They'll get cracked fairly fast, and do you think the crackers will mind using you as a scapegoat for their latest defacement spree or new virus? Imagine your HailStorm account filled with enough information that you'll rot in jail? Do you think Microsoft will assist you with logs showing that your account was cracked, or do you think they'll just say its not possible to crack HailStorm, delete anything suspicious and let you take your chances?
Yep. Just imagine the happy funny talking clip. Dear Mrs HailStormUser, your husband has just been killed in a car accident, but dont worry, HailStorm has already arranged the funeral details and rescheduled your appointments for that day. MSDatingService has been notified of your profile and prospective new HailStormPartners are being scheduled for dates. You have 35 new automated condoleance messages waiting.
Your real choice isn't between Windows or another OS, it's between apathy or proaction, between slow poison made easy or the rewarding work of becoming more self-sufficient, between slowly draining your resources to pay "voluntary" taxes to Microsoft or taking real responsibility to become more capable and independant.
You don't have to switch cold-turkey to another OS, GUI, set of apps, etc. PartitionMagic is not too expensive. If you have a fair-sized HD, most of it is likely unused (a full Win2K install with Office2000, MS Project, Lotus SmartSuite, Notes, etc. only takes about 3GB - most HDs are 8GB or larger now). Set up a dual boot system with more than one OS environment. Keep Windows around for the things you need it for. Use Linux (or OS/2, or BeOS, whatever) to learn how it works, become familiar with it, build your non-MS capabilities. You'll find you use Windows less and less as you get more comfortable with any better alternative, and that it will get better and easier for you to use over time, even as Microsoft progressively makes Windows more restrictive, feature bloated, and oppressive, with "content protection" and Hailstorm coming.
At a previous employer, I had a Dell notebook set up with the firm standard Windows system on one partition, OS/2 built on a second partition, and a shared data partition for Notes databases, etc. I did almost all my work under OS/2. They did not know the difference and I didn't have to reboot several times a day or redo work lost to Windows crashes. I was much more productive that way.... Now I run both OS/2 and Linux on my firewall box, and always have one to fall back on if the other develops a weird glitch.
Before long most mainstream Win32 apps will be running under both Linux and OS/2 using Wine or Odin. Linux software has been ported to OS/2 (Xfree86 and GIMP come to mind) and more will be in the future. BeOS runs most Linux apps natively, as do the *BSD environments. Software outside Windows is becoming available everwhere.
Windows is the dead end, proprietary, high cost alternative, and lots of people are slowly realizing this. Find a way out earlier rather than later, or pay the price repeatedly.
I predict a growth industry in coming years for selling disposable identities for online surfing & commerce.
The problem is that MS will make you give your information to them if you want to use MS products. Having a monopoly they will have personal information on millions of people worldwide which will be very profitable to sell to whoever wants it.
When I buy an RCA Television I do not have to tell RCA who I am but when you buy MS software (I certainly don't) you are going to be forced to tell them who you are, not only that but you will be tagged and additional information about you will be collected and sold as well.
they will get away with it because they sell to the meaty stupid portion of the bell curve or computer users and those lusers who can't change their default homepages will happiliy divulge whatever MS wants to them. We saw it coming when the NY times insisted that they know your name before you read their paper online while the paper version was anonymous. Those of use who are not idiots used false names or partner but the MS users of the world happily typed in their names and adresses. It never occured to them that it was an odd thing to do when they could have picked up the paper in the subway for nothing AND kept their privacy at the same time. It's a stupid tax and MS will happily collect it from their stupid users.
War is necrophilia.
but before you could use them you'd have tell MS all about yourself.
War is necrophilia.
I quit smoking four years ago. it was the hardest thing I ever did. I am so happy now that I did it. Kicking any bad habit weather it's heroin, or windows is hard but it can be done and you'll have more freedom afterwards. Just like a junkie is a slave to the dealer and to heroin you are a slave to Bill Gates and windows. Kick the habit. It will be very hard and you'll be tempted to go back but in the end everything will be much better. Trust me I know.
War is necrophilia.
Hail Storm "Now bow down and worship me!!!" dmaxwell "Meet Mr. HERFgun......."
What if the information were stored on the server in an encrypted format? The owner of the information would be the only person who has the key to decrypt the information. Even better, the owner could only decrypt the pieces required for a particular purchase, application or whatever.
From the user's point of view all of the advantages would still be there. He would have nice itemized lists of his bill and purchases. He can quickly zip through credit purchases and applications. But there would be no reselling or evil use of the information as only the owner can authorize spot uses of it.
Microsoft will probably succeed with this concept as they continue to gradually suck our IQ and free will away. I'm noticing a trend at my work that plays right into MS hands. "It's easy and convenient", people say. Well we'll see about what they think about that convenience later on...
Thomas Jefferson said:
"Those who give up a freedom for a little security deserve neither freedom nor security"
People may be worse than that. . . they may be giving up security AND freedom for comfort.
Just my .sig will do here........
Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
and down with the "all caps" slashdot lameness filter already.
How we know is more important than what we know.
gee, I dont know. We're a megacorp and we buy out every competitor that trys to enter our market. Now who are we going to make our products for? The user who tells us everything about themselves including what they had for breakfast, or the guy who wont tell us anything about himself and talks about such arcane things as freedom of choice and privacy? I dont know, hmmmmm, I think we could sell our product to the former guy easier and improve it specifically so they will buy more of it and the guy who wont tell us anything about himself can just go without. Sure, we could ask the other guy what he wants our product to do and listen to his improvements but why go to the trouble of doing that when we can just put our product closer to the corn puffs on the breakfast cereal isle because our studies have show that people who eat corn puffs also buy our product.
How we know is more important than what we know.
They played with our privacy?
How we know is more important than what we know.
Just to give Bill and his buddies a "heads up"... There's a security testing product on the market called Hailstorm by Click To Secure.
http://www.clicktosecure.com
Of course, maybe this Slashdot article is a "heads up" for the legal department of Click To Secure--they didn't know they were about to be beaten up by MS goons.
They probably aren't allowed to use "click" in their company name, either. Didn't MS invent that, too? Oh. That's right. Bill stole it from Steve. And Steve stole it from Xerox. Blah.
--
Beetle
Beetle
http://ruff.cs.jmu.edu/~beetle/
Hailstorm begins to learn, at a geometric rate.
It becomes self-aware at 2:14 am, eastern time, August 29th.
In a panic, they try to pull the plug.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/cixel
...they made a server I could deploy on my hardware and control myself.
People could run of these for their own families, small business. Companies could deploy them for their employees.
It would also be nice if the different servers could talk to each other.
My devices would be updated by both my home server for essential personal information and my work server, for appointments and business data. This should be as seamless as receiving email from these separate people is now.
Naturally, if I wanted to I could pay someone to do this for me, and I'd have to give them my information. They could discount the service if I let them share my information for marketing.
So...anyone starting a project to this the right way ?
Don't post innacurate information
If you do, I swear by my pretty floral bonnet I will end you.
Hope I'm not replying to a joke here ("all your base")
Is that concept legal? It is an interesting idea, but doesn't some human representing the party of the second part (the company running the site) have to be at least aware of the license? The HTTP protocol is designed to ignore headers it does not recognize, and if you suddenly inject this into the stream nobody on the other end would even be aware of it. At best they might see it in their httpd logs later on. Doesn't sound like license acceptance to me at all.
-konstant
Yes! We are all individuals! I'm not!
-konstant
Yes! We are all individuals! I'm not!
"Maybe you don't trust them, but get a reality check.. the vast majority of people trust Microsoft and Bill Gates implicitly"
I was, in essence, forced to leave my last job, as a network engineer, simply because I was vocal about my distrust and loathing of Microsoft products, specifically servers. There were other mitigating factors, like being setup by a co-worker, but in the main, I was not liked by upper management because I told them they were wasting money buying all these damn licenses and additional hardware, when they didn't need to. I also PROVED to them, in a testbed, that M$ products were unreliable. I was told, by a Director and a VP, "Quit bashing Microsoft, we chose to use it, now make it work.". Of course, they chose M$ without even looking at other approaches. The whole point I'm trying to get at is, management has been brain-washed by M$'s market droids to the point that you can't change their minds! If these well-educated, supposedly intelligent people can get pulled in by the hype-meisters, does the general public really stand a chance?
Dive Gear
--- Think of it as evolution in action ---
I already have a Java proxy that does this. I think the Mozilla addition will make a bigger difference though.
... all of this is easy to implement. It is just a matter of doing it.
I am in the process of working on a way to short circuit privacy policies on the Internet so it is the user is who is in control and not large companies like Microsoft. The DMCA and other US regulation now gives systems like Hailstorm rights to keep your information as a corporate asset. This would basically make systems like Hailstorm a wholesale violation of both the users rights on their *own* data and their privacy.
I have come up with a system so that the user who originates the request can maintain copyright on his data and so that the receiving site has a chance to either opt-out or accept and abide by the agreement. (of course all this will be Open Source).
Basically it works with the HTTP protocol and should support any server/browser combination. Right now I have hacked Mozilla 0.8.1 to support this.
The mechanism is *very* simple. Basically it add one more HTTP header *prior* to the request being transferred. A valid request would look like:
GET http://hailstorm.microsoft.com/ HTTP/1.0
User-Agent: GNU/Linux and Mozilla
User-License: All your base are belong to us!
The goal here is that the single click licenses that Amazon/Microsoft and every other site can also be used by users:
"By responding to this HTTP request, you are accepting the practices described in this Privacy Notice. You will not give my information out to other users and you understand that I maintain copyright" (this would have to be encoded so that it is an HTTP param)
Of course the above is not Lawyer talk but I am hoping that we can get some official licenses together. If anyone knows any lawyers who are interested in contributing please give them my e-mail (burton@openprivacy.org).
The goal is that users would standardize on icenses, if sites ever violated the user policy then they would file a class action suit.
I have the code local if anyone wants a copy. It is really raw right now but I am trying to add a control panel in Mozilla so that users can nable/disable it and also set their license.
Kevin
you'll have to buy a Microsoft Car .... you can have any color you like provided it's black and has Windows .... eventually you wont be allowed on the freeway with out one (and your Passport ....)
the one's who've joined the M$ world and the rest of us .... their goal of course is that you can't be part of the mainstream technical society unless you're part of M$'s
Well you have to divulge personal information if you want to say shop online. However i do expect (and i believe it is reasonable for me to do so) that the company will NOT resell my information. I am providing the information so they can bill me and complete the transaction (ie, deliver what i ordered). After that i consider the case closed, and don't expect them to even keep the information. In my mind, the information i divulge should be ONLY enough to complete the transaction. If i go to the store and pay cash, i need to give up nothing.
Actually i do think thats resonable. If i pay cash, what records do they even have?
As far as the credit cards go, i believe they send in the signed slip and the CC company sends them the money (in a lump some of course). I highly doubt the store can request what other purchases i have made, or request my address. If they can, i'd be very worried!
.
.
"Micro$oft Hail$torm" = "UnNatural Disaster"
Sure, I trust Microsoft with all my data. These are the guys who, last week, claimed that all my bits are belong to them, and just a few days ago "noticed" that their privacy policy was a bit 'draconian'...so they backed off just a bit. We don't want ownership of all your bits anymore. Just the bits you send to us!
Of course I trust these guys to keep my secret data. They won't let it be revealed, they want it for themselves...
I don't know about Microsoft owning all of my info, but I want this kind of service.
I want to walk into a new town and go to a chiropractor, dentist, doctor, etc. and have my medical records handy. I want to have my calendar and contacts and alerts online.
I want to have a running list of every receipt of every purchase saved so I can go through and make a budget and get reimbursed for my job. Maybe we need to come up with another 3rd party, I don't know.
Seriously, do you think MS is going to go snooping? Do you think they'll do anything with your data without an explicit 'OK'?
Not only would they be opening themselves up to MAJOR lawsuits, but they would loose any and all traction with HailStorm and their whole 'Software as a service' model.
MS has to be VERY careful. They are putting too much at stake. They know this. Believe me, they know this better than you or I.
...oh yeah, but they're evil...blah blah blah...
A speech...
how often do you give your credit card to a waiter and let him walk in the back with it?
There are ways to protect personal info. Are they perfect? Hell no. Will they get better? Hell yes. Do I want to go back to cash and never buy things online? Hell no.
We trust people with our personal info EVERYDAY. Is the idea of someone stealing it all scary. Yes. Is the idea of being in a car crash scary. Yes! Doesn't mean I won't drive to work in the morning...just make sure to look both ways until you pull into traffic.
A speech...
This strikes me as good and bad.
Bad because I don't want people to know when I'm looking at pr0n.
Good, because if it decides that me looking at pr0n is me being "busy", maybe it'll cut back on the damn pop-up ads.
- Jonathan
This may be redundant, but these quotes have to be seen to be believed (empahsis added in the following):
...Microsoft may be the only company in the world with the skill and clout to pull it off...
...the public will fully accept the HailStorm concept and Microsoft as a trusted repository within five to 10 years...
..Initially, HailStorm will consist of a universal password and a service...
...If you are in a car accident, HailStorm could automatically send your medical history and insurance information to the hospital before the ambulance arrived...
...Microsoft officials acknowledged the company has been vulnerable to attacks and system failures...
...They're the most attacked infrastructure there is on the Internet, they're the No. 1 target for hackers...
It'll never work. There is no fucking way I'd trust anyone, let alone microsoft, with that sort, or quantity, of private information.
There may be many reasons not to kill you, but among them is not that you'll be missed by NASA - The Long Kiss Goodnight
No! I'll never believe it!
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
No, no, no. Fake addresses are the wrong answer. The correct solution is to look up the site's Admin Contact address from whois . Let the nosy bastards spam themselves. You can also use their own phone number and snail address if needed.
This brings up a very interesting idea..
Say MS does do this and it is a success the whole of North American and then the world are using hailstorm. Then what?
Say I am one of the bosses in the Russian mafia. I would be really interested in getting someone into MS right now to work on that project. To built in a back door or weakness and to keep it hidden. Untill the world is all under this hailstorm then what? Then I'll blackmail for million.
Or i blackmail Bill Gates and gain a controling share in MS and just suck the company dry.
On the other hand I can shut it all down destory everyone's data and basically ruin Microsoft and whatever method of communication that uses hailstorm.
The possibility are limitless. Just take the game Deus Ex for instance.. this is just like it..
First we get Carnivore, then Hailstorm. What next, and who's coming up with all these spiffy names? I feel like I'm living in a Castle Wolfenstein game or something.
- Steeltoe
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
The idea of having this type of service is cool. Yes, we all like convenience.
The implementation of it's pretty dire. M$oft ? Do you trust them to get Son-of-Passport right ? Have M$oft ever produced a crypto-complex product without making a complete disaster of it ?
Secondly, the whole myFoo idea is the wrong approach. Forgive me for stating the obvious, but good ideas for improving personal privacy don't usually start by placing the whole lot on a great big server, owned by the antichrist and operated by the people who brought you Hotmail.
I predict that the most interesting exploits won't be ripping the lid off directly, but instead by buying the SDK and spoofing the B2C services. Why steal your medical history when I can claim to be Dr Viagra's Clinic and have you give it to me ?
The most disappointing part of HailStorm is how technically backward it is. Big server-based things and single point validation ? Get real guys. I'd much rather have the sorts of proof-based selective disclosure that smarter and more innovative companies are working on (OK, so I work for HP and so I'm biased). Why should Anne & Chris communicate their trust of each other for one small fact, by being forced to tell all their secrets to Bill first ? (esp. when Bill is the blabbermouthed village idiot) It's a much better approach if they communicate directly, and we already know how to do this. Where are M$oft on topics like anonymous verification, or an anonymous ePerson ? For as long as they persist with this notion that every minor disclosure to an on-line business requires me to make a full and traceable disclosure to them, then I won't touch it.
--
Always trust content from Microsoft Corporation ?
And Microsoft is actually doing this for *end-user* benefit? It'll be quiet day on the PHP mailing list when that happens ;-) I'll be very suprised if the powers-that-be in the Evil Empire don't pass up the opertunity to turn this *amazing feature* into a backdoor to steal information from users. Its been known to happen.-
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Perversely greped and groped by PowerPenguin
Moderators:
Mod the parent up!
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
A spokeswoman for Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., said privacy and Internet taxation are top priorities for his Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee. McCain and Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., are planning a privacy conference this spring to gather information from the public and industry.
This is the type of man that I think the high tech sector could have really gotten behind in the election. He was the perfect middle man. Satisfys just enough of each side, and you know he's not wishy-washy. It's too bad that Americans let the parties choose two puppets that nobody wanted to vote for.
Nate
THIS SPACE FOR RENT
I think this sort of system would raise concerns no matter what company (or government organization) was undertaking them. Basically who else will be privy to this information? What right do I retain over the information that is stored about me? etc. The fact that it's Microsoft just adds a whole lot more concerns. Even if they had the best intentions and were doing this for free without any thought of making money off it, reselling info etc you just have to wonder whether they could implement it properly, or whether the directive of "ease of use over security" will win out again.
Hailstorm sounds fantastic as a concept
So did Bob.
Dahlmann tightly grips the knife, which he may have no idea how to use, and steps out into the plain.
I bet he waved his hand, with index, middle finger and thumb extended when he said that stuff...The reporter replied "I will trade off personal information to get a benefit" and proceeded to hand Mundie his credit card, social security card, etc.
Are Linux, BSD, Mac, Be (all OS's non-M$) users impervious to such M$ mind-tricks?
Galego
Que Deus te de em dobro o que me desejas
[May God give you double that which you wish for me]
... and M$ Hailstorm won't make it. Combine the issue of privacy (let the user maintain their own info) as well as a much cheaper alternative, it's a slam-dunk (especially if it's made easy to use.) I think that Microsoft's success in making this project work depends on unified messaging standards - standards that an open-source version of this could take advantage of.
Sounds good... I'll be sure to look into this. -Qworg
Trust no one.
This article says most of what I wanted to say, and says it better. Let me add one thing though:
Microsoft is as irresponsible with their technological power as the chemical companies who have polluted the environment for decades, not knowing or caring what unexpected side effects might result.
Given the complexity of human trust relationships, and the fact that Microsoft never gets anything security-related right the first time, nobody should trust them to "change society's infrastructure." (Not to mention the fact that they have no business trying to re-architect human society when they don't even know how to architect an OS.)
A flawed system like .NET is to the Information Age what polluting industries were to the Industrial Age. No wonder Microsoft is lobbying Congress. We'll have to fight them the way the last generation had to fight the chemical companies.
But if you need something catchy? Microsoft .NET is the Next Chernobyl.
Corollary to Moore's Law: The IQ of new computer owners is declining.
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
Point is that Microsoft is full of itself if it thinks that it will be the repository of personal data.
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
(c) TM Patent Pending All Rights Reserved Billy Gates Corp.
"Backups are for wimps. Real men upload their data to an FTP site and have everyone else mirror it." -- Linus Torvalds
If this goes anywhere, it will be because Microsoft finds some way to cram it down everybody's throats, like building it into the Windows registration process. They'll probably make it free at first, then later change the customer agreement to take a cut on every transaction.
Did this story remind anyone else of the Hacker Hellstorm from Canadian Bacon? (Great movie.) I'm sure there's some irony or something, but I'm too lazy and tired to think about it.
The streets shall flow with the blood of the Guberminky.
root@127.0.0.1
I like to sign him up for ALL the newsletters the company may offer.
--Ryvar
I beg to differ with your idea on the general public loving M$. I work in a retail store as a tech, and have over the last year, experienced a growing number of people _looking_ for non M$ products. Add to that the number of people they are getting to sign up for M$N and the dissatisfaction I've deen from that ( their password authentication server is like a yoyo up...down...up...down ). The general populace is becoming more dissatisifed with M$. AOhelL on the other hand is beginning to terrify me.
Like exchange, what manager wouldn't be able to resist the idea of "scanning" through his/her employees while they work?
In the Microsoft universe, this gives management a whole new set of reasons to hire hotties...so they can sit there and beat off while they watch the secretary do her lipstick.
Once the Fortune 500 are saturated, the public infrastructure will probably follow.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
Ever worried if a waiter in a restaurant would use your creditcard number, exp date etc for fraud? I don't think so.
Then again, why are you so paranoid when a (not 'the') service is provided by a company? you don't HAVE TO use that service. And if you do, would it be any more risky than using a creditcard and give a lot of your financial information to a creditcardcompany?
--
Never underestimate the relief of true separation of Religion and State.
Slashdotters forget they don't represent the majority of individuals in the world. Just because slashdotters say it's a bad thing, doesn't mean the average Joe wouldn't see the great benefit of this system. I already utilize MSN Messenger's capability to send e-mail alerts of Stock alerts, Sports scores, Calendar reminders and e-mail from my wife. It's awesome, I can hardly wait to take it to the next step!
..that the alerts above are being sent to my cell phone.
If you are in a car accident, HailStorm could automatically send your medical history and insurance information to the hospital before the ambulance arrived. Then it could page your spouse and reschedule your appointments.
Honey, I'm in the ER bleeding like a sieve. Could you pick up the kids at soccer practice today?
Sure. No problem.
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
- - - -
got in shit once with my ISP because I used someone@myisp.com :) some people are more stupid than you can think :)
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
Information is as marketable as any currency on the market today. Trading information you want (data) for the information the company wants (personal, marketable data) is a logical extension of the old horse-trader ideal.
If people really wanted this to stop, all they would have to do is not divulge any personal information at all. That will not happen though, as people will think, this site wants my address, that site wants my age, the other site wants my gender, but it will not occur to the typical surfer that those sites are all on the same database and will compile an entire background, shopping history and link through-click and target them for what the companies believe they will want.
People, do not give out personal information on the 'net, in person, or anywhere else if you do not want it to become public information by default.
DanH
Cav Pilot's Reference Page
Cav Pilot's Reference Page
UNIX - Not just for Vestal Virgins anymore
This sound like the opening scene in B:TM, the next movie in the Star Trek series.
Carbon based humanoid in training.
They sell to "we make it easier for you".
Ironic that this is the same tenent that thousands of HCI/UI researchers preach to their students (and understudies) every day.
The idea of a great product is that it makes something easier for the end user. UIs have made or broken otherwise functionally excellent apps simply because they were hard as hell to use.
If MS's evil is to sell to the lazy, then what company appeals to the Rube Goldbergs of the world?
I can't believe they're calling it hailstorm.... what a stupid name. I mean c'mon, aren't hailstorms those things that crop up during severe thunderstorms, destroying huge amounts of property....
oh, ok, maybe hailstorm isn't such a bad name after all. My bad.
---
Is there a way to do this in such a way that only the people who really should have your information can get to it?
I know it sounds impossible, hell, it may be. Just making it so phenomenally difficult that you have to have, say, three or four of the smartest people in the nation (The five percent nation of Casiotone, of course) to actually make it happen might be enough. Hell, that way we could make a movie about it, sort of like Sneakers, and use that cash to finance any infrastructure needs we have. I'm not sure who to trust to run them - Probably two bastions of the Tech community who hate each other. They'll keep each other honest. RMS and Bill Gates come to mind. Think about it.
Anyway, where was I? We need a system that has seperate entities entirely for each stage of the system. Data is stored by one firm, carried by another (preferrably completely government-controlled, believe it or not) and then licensed by whoever. Only certain people should have access to certain types of information. I (sadly) don't know enough about encryption to design a scheme without unnecessary steps, but it seems to me that you could do it with the current system of cryptologically signed certificates, and public key encryption. Data would be stored encrypted, would require some sort of key and passphrase for decryption (I like physical devices for the key, something like the iButton for example) and would then be signed using the recipient's public key.
The catch is, the public key has to be signed by a third party, like (yuck) Verisign. You could always sign your own, but if it's known that you sign your keys with your own provider, most people will not choose to trust you with anything but the most insignificant data. Again, all of this should be possible with the basic software we already use today, with a few minor modifications. Why not just implement our own?
Here's the deal: Allow creation of arbitrary categories. Then allow creation of arbitrary rules. The rules will check arbitrary properties. If someone says they want a certain kind of data, then they have to meet certain criteria. Maybe the forward and reverse DNS have to match, and they have to have a certain signature; Maybe you only allow someone who encrypts their request to you, using their private key, et cetera. Some pieces of information you will want to be as closely restricted as all of those at once; That's the restriction on your medical records, maybe, and perhaps to allow someone to grab your resume, they just have to have matching A and PTRs.
Anyway, don't let microsoft do this to us! We already know that we, the internet community, can do a better job than Microsoft at damn near anything except Feeding FUD - And we're a damn close second there. We rock! And we definitely rock more than Microsoft. And tell me, do you want this shit to use SOAP? Please, stop the insanity!
--
ALL YOUR KARMA ARE BELONG TO US
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
You know, my concerns having little to do with privacy for privacy's sake. Instead, I'm just worried that we're being forced into more and more "choices" that don't really involve any choice. Microsoft can leverage it's marketshare to make me do all sorts of things I certainly wouldn't want to do otherwise. Saying that something is "optional" is only as good as having a viable choice.
I know it's probably blasphemy here (flamebait, even!), but I don't consider linux to be a viable desktop OS choice for me. Sure, it's an alternative to windows but I'd have to sacrifice functionality to switch over (not only in terms of some of my more unusual peripherals that still lack working linux drivers, but also all the software that I actually purchased instead of "liberated"). For all intents and purposes, Microsoft has me like a dealer has a junkie. I'm too used to the desktop feel, for example, to switch to something else compeltely...
So, basically, Microsoft is the only game in town and if they want to move in a particular direction, I'm forced to follow. I may not like their point of view on how society's "infrastructure" should be changed (subscription-based software, "Hailstorm", etc..), but what practical choice do I have?
I MAY technically have a choice, but I, like most other lay-people out there, don't really see it that way... Follow the herd, follow the herd...
Read Microsoft's HailStorm Whitepaper www.microsoft.com/net/hailstorm.asp
!NET (Not Net). People against the .NET platform and HailStorm. www.notnet.org
Well the Coca-Cola contract is retarded. Don't blame my University for being stupid. I doubt that things won't get that bad that they will start selling installation rights. No one would stand for say Microsoft coming in and signing a contract with the university that makes every computer on campus run Windows 2000 but based on how cheap they are giving it away at I guess anything is possible. And now there's a friggin Active Directory project on campus.
Centralizing data is a huge problem with HailStorm but also consider the innate problems of storing data on the service. You are going to put your data into HailStorm and Microsoft is going to get a firsthand peek at whatever you put in. They encrypt and protect your information but there is nothing to stop them from giving it away to the government or selling it!
To make matters worse they are inplementing HailStorm into everything they sell including Windows XP, Office XP, the X-Box, and Hotmail. People will be able to link their Windows XP login with the HailStorm service.
A group of concerned University of Illinois students has started an organization called !NET (Not Net) to spread awareness of the problems with handing all your personal information to a company like Microsoft to be stored in a centralized datacenter. If Microsoft gets their way they will have the keys to this huge collection of information. We respectfully submit that handing control of this kind of information to one company, organization, or government is a horrible idea.
We are gathering people and ideas and coding an open source, alternative method of doing HailStorm where the user encodes their data with PGP keys and allows other users or companies access to that data only by signing their data with those companies or individuals' public keys. We have considered a variety of delivary mechanisms including peer to peer networks such as FreeNet. Peer to peer distribution would give the advantage of not consolidating everyone's data in one place and would also ensure that the person who stored the information, the rightfull keyholder, will be the only one that chooses who else can view that information, not Microsoft. More information on our at present unrefined ideas is located at our website www.notnet.org.
Shortly afterwards a group of University of Illinois students formed an organization, !NET (Not Net). www.notnet.org
We plan on spreading awareness about HailStorm as well as designing an open source alternative for it. It involves using SOAP and XML and encrypting data inside XML tags with PGP public keys. You choose what information you want to make available to companies by encrypting your entries with their public keys. Then your encrypted information is stored in an existing peer to peer system which is completely decentralized (possibly freenet) so the whole system can't break down or get hacked. In this way you encrypt your data and an unencrypted copy isn't even stored on your local machine.. no one organization, government or company (Microsoft) has access to your data.
Weren't these the same guys who had a worm in their network for 3 months or something. Putting all MS jokes aside, a central repository is a Bad Idea. Fuck, I wouldn't willingly give the fuckin' CIA/NSA all this info - and they have some of the most secure servers / installations in the world (or MI6, etc. .
Fuck hacking, honestly, some dude walks out the MSN corporate office with a cdr. Same shit, different pile.
Now, cameras in your home, those wouldn't be possibly used by law enforcement agencies in "certain situations", i.e. the "Civil Responsibilites Act of 2003". Or even worse, "bundeled" in the bottom of some of Mr. Warren Hatch's (some fucking party, Utah) "fast food restaurant food quality" bill, or some other, similar action. Screw cameras outdoor, people will actually buy cameras (well, we will in either way, tax or buy) that will be used for surveillance.
Online advertising will be taken to a whole new level - how about we give MS our DNA!! they will tell us that we should buy brand X breast cancer medication instead of Brand Y (this would be really cool is cancer sites were different for different people)
Fuckit, I got the anti-MS
Though I think this will fail because MS expects people to pay $50 a month for this. Fuck, I pay $40 for DSL! (too much) And thats something I wanted to begin with. I think that MS greately overestimates everyone's income!
Fuckin' birthday reminders are on yahoo for free. I'll wear my medicalert bracelet in the meantime.
I have a shotgun, a shovel and 30 acres behind the barn.
1q2w3e4r5t6y7u8i9o0pqawsedrftgthyjukilo;p'azsxdcf
Kinda ironic. Interesting read, especially after this article....
the question is - is it fud, or just coincidence?
http://moneycentral.msn.com/articles/banking/on
I have a shotgun, a shovel and 30 acres behind the barn.
1q2w3e4r5t6y7u8i9o0pqawsedrftgthyjukilo;p'azsxdcf
When walking down the street with no pants, you're exposing your body. With HailStorm, you're exposing your personal info. You tell me what's more indignant.
It may suit you, but it's not for me. Luckily, I'm not AmeriKKKan so I need not worry yet. Here in Europe, well-being of society is still more important than corporate profit. I hope most of my fellow Europeans will continue to vote NO to absolute corporatism that is taking AmeriKKKa down.
I honestly feel sorry for the people in the US.
-----
If Microsoft is not an Evil Empire(TM), I don't think there ever was one!
-----
Thing is, stopping smoking is actually not as hard as we lead ourselves to believe.
:)
Smokers are addicted to nicotine. Hicotine doesn't do anything for a healthy person, only for an addict. So the first cigarette doesn't do anything for the novice smoker. But after a while, when the nicotine starts to leave the system, they start to feel slightly bad. A tiny little bit depressed.
Another cigarette alleviates the bad feeling a bit; not completely, just a bit. But it's enough to make the smoker think, that cigarette made me feel better. Only, a while later, they are feeling just a little more depressed than the first one made them. Just an imperceptible amount, but the desire for the next cigarette is now stronger than ever before.
And so it goes on.
The thing is, all a smoker has to do to stop is:
1. Understand that cigarettes do NOTHING for you; you are not giving anything up, you are not making any sacrafice.
2. Don't smoke another cigarette
3. Relish being a non-smoker. Understand that you will quickly be healthier, fitter, more attractive, wealthier.
Quite easy really, and step 3 makes it fun.
Now, this may seem off topic, but ditching Windows in favour of Freedom is much easier than people are led to believe.
1. Understand that Windows does NOTHING for you; you are not giving anything up, you are not making any sacrafice.
2. Don't run Windows again
3. Relish being free. Understand that you will quickly be more satisfied, you will reap more reward from life, you get to go around with a smug internal grin all the time.
That's it
Yours Sincerely, Michael.
If you want privacy select communism! That way you won't have to worry about privacy instead you will have to worry about if you will eat tonight
Of course, your '85 probably has that nice feature of sticking a coat hanger down the side of the window to unlock it too.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
It was a bright, cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen.
Bugrit! Millenium hand and shrimp!
Check out the Vinny the Vampire comic strip
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Now, If you just toss a frog straight into a pot of boiling water, this is not going to to anything but upset the frog and make the frog jump out of the pot. BUT, if you put the frog into the pot when tha water is cool, the frog will like it. If you then very gradually raise the temperature of the water the frog will not notice it. You can eventually raise the temperature of the water until it is boiling, and you now have one cooked frog dinner. NOTE, California bullfrogs, weighing in at about 3 or 4 pounds, have enough meat to make a decent meal.
How does this relate? Simple.
The long term strategy of MS is to slowly increment changes in the way things worked so that in the end, everything works they way they want, and they can dictate how it goes together. If they got greedy and tried to do it all in a year or so, then they would never get agreeement. But by implementing it bit and piece, they can continue to carve a large and larger section of the pie for themselves. All they have to do is think longer term than their opponents.
Actually, I am sure they have on a wall someplace their equivalent of a 5 or 10 year plan to conquer the known (software) world, subject to revision and new discoveries, etc. They likely planned killing off Windows about 3 to 5 years ago when it became obvious that the legal suites were beginning to be a real pain. They are not there yet, but they needed an escape plan. Part of the move to taking over the Internet was part of this escape plan, which is why Gates made sure it was the equivalent of a oceanliner coming to a halt and turning on a dime.
How to we handle this?
We need as far reaching an effort and long range vision as they do. A competitive Argument that resonates. Microsofts's sells to the inherently lazy streak in people, even if the PR is twisted. They sell to "we make it easier for you".
What competitive meme do we offer to fight this Microsoft meme virus?
Check out the Vinny the Vampire comic strip
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
I've been wrong before... but gosh, never amazingly wrong. What's your evidence that "the vast majority of people trust Microsoft and Bill Gates implicitly"??? I don't know anybody who does. And I'm not seeing too much gratuitous press favorable to MS these days, while the antitrust trial has been quite visibly the opposite.
Evidently MS has no sense of reality when it comes to its #1 problem: the company's public image is a total disaster. While most of us may use MS products, this is not because we trust them, but rather in spite of the fact that we don't.
Don't like it? Don't use it. Why is this such a big deal? Because it's MSFT? They're not the first, won't be the last.
Java is the blue pill
Choose the red pill
I'm pretty sure that when you give a waiter your credit card, they don't then leave the restaraunt, walk to the worst part of town, and sit there forever. Unfortunately, if you have an internet-connected storage repository, that's roughly what you're dealing with. Anything that can connect to your hospital, your wife, etc. can also be connected to. And while I'm sure MS is going to try to deal with security, there are about a million problems associated with this sort of thing (authentification, dealing with that one appointment who's not using the service, dealing with people who don't check the service regularly to see if anything has changed).
What really worries me, though, is this: What kind of software is going to do all this stuff? What happens when they find a bug? Can we sue MS if they acidentally cancel one of my vital appointments?
Microsoft's Hailstorm is another manifestation of the American "I want my mommy" society. Consider, for instance, a currently-running commercial for the Chevy Suburban, wherein some dumb cluck locks his keys in the truck whilst ruining tundra in the Rocky Mountains. He calls out on his cell phone, and Chevy unlocks his car remotely .
Holy Big Brother, Batman!
It sure makes me appreciate my 1985 4x4 Chevy Suburban; the most technologically-advanced priginal equipment feature on my truck is the electric windows. Now, I have some communication doodads onboard, and I'm adding a few other James Bond features, but I'll be damned if I want some anonymous corporate cog accessing to my doorlocks!
And Satan will be dodging snowballs in Hades before Microsoft pries the personal data from my cold, dead fingers. Just don't be surprised if Hailstorm is a success, especially among the people who desperately want to be wet-nursed through life...
--
Scott Robert Ladd
Master of Complexity
Destroyer of Order and Chaos
All about me
...is an arrogant asshole.
:)
His daughter went to Colorado College, while I was working in the Computing department. He came to spread M$ propoganda to the Computing Director and other "decision makers" at the college. With a not-so-subtle tone of "if you get your students to use M$ software, I'll arrange a sweet deal for you (or make a big contribution to the college)".
Anyways, I got to sit in on a few meetings with him, and discuss some campus issues with him. He's totally arrogant and elitist and everything you'd expect from the way M$ does business. I tried really hard not to be prejudiced against him just because of where he works, but I think he's a total asshole.
I doubt this is shocking news to anyone, but I felt the need to share. Thanks for letting me vent a little hostility
K45
This signature has eleven vowels.
Ok, I'm all for all this privacy stuff and everything, but honestly guys, this just seems a little far-fetched. Yes, it is technically possible, but then again, are you really that important that Microsoft is going to monitor you? And if you really are that vain, guess what:
You don't have to use it!
Personally, I will not use this because I like my computer dumb and predictable. However, there are people that think this is a good thing, and buy it, sacraficing a little more privacy for convenience. And if you don't think you're sacraficing privacy for convenience, think about this: Do you have a Credit Card? Do you shop at stores with security cameras? Does anyone have your Social Security ID? Did you respond to the census? Do you take any anonymizing measures when surfing the web? Apply equivalents to whatever locality you're from.
It's all about the gradient between convenience and privacy. It's analagous to: the more ports you have open, the more you can do, but the more you expose yourself.
Kurdt
Kurdt
I'm not anti-social. Just pro-technology.
Didn't they learn from the flap over Carnivore? Hell, if they are going for truth in advertising maybe they should have called it eCancer.
-------
We want some answers and all that we get
Some kind of shit about a terrorist threat
- Ministry
Are you talking about transfer & storage, or legal ownership?
Many corporations (i.e. those who might see M$ as competition) are never going to go for this. M$ will hope to infiltrate these companies through their own employees use of Hailstorm, .Net, etc., but there will be resistance there (as we see with UCITA). Not that they're going to be our great saviors, but then there will be anybody who cares for their civil liberty. The problem lies with people who delusionally believe they are entitled to their privacy (or at least respect for their privacy). The question is: Is this the vast majority out there?
So, 1984 will become a reality--it's just a few decades behind schedule. Is that what you're saying? The most insidious part of this is that M$ wants to monitor individual user's activities (a la 1984).
Hey, that Rachael Tyrell quote is pretty ironic for this story. After all, noboby even knew if they "owned" their own thoughts in Blade Runner
It would be nice to have my name/address/email follow me about, rather than having to type the same information in a million times. It would be good if I were automatically informed if my son had been involved in an accident. It would be potentially lifesaving to have hospitals be able to exchange data about the allergic reaction to antibiotics that I don't have.
However, I'm not willing to become a piece of marketing data to achieve this state of events. There's a structural problem here in that any commercial organisation that provides this service is going to be extremely tempted to use the data as a secondary source of income. Since this secondary source of income can be used to lower any fees charged, there's the potential for more privacy-respecting competitors to be driven from the market.
One possible solution here would be to have a statutory body administer the data "for the public good". There would need to be legislative barriers in place to prevent other agencies from going on fishing expeditions. As there would need to be for a private organisation, for that matter. In my country, the Census already collects this kind of data, although not with the same level of turn-around, and manages to do a reasonable job of privacy protection. So it's at least notionally possible.
You're right, they give it away free, and they make you pay to not give it away.
The first is that privacy is sometimes an impediment. If I am trying to find a loved one, or get in contact with someone of note, then it is difficult if that person has clothed the details of their life in privacy.
For example, I am desperately in love with Heidi Wall. I cherish her sweet voice and her sonsy face as those of Athene. However, were the world a private, paranoid place, I would have no hope of ever meeting her - I would not even know that she exists.
Love is the base of the world, and all of our drives. Greater privacy destroys love, by reducing the circle of people in whom we can fall in love to just those we know personally.
I urge Microsoft to consider their actions carefully. They could be breaking peoples hearts.
I am not some stalker, like shoeboy - I am an honest Virgin, reserving his true passions for The One.
I won't let microsoft get in my way.
KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.
KTB:Lover, Poet, Artiste, Aesthete, Programmer.
There is no
Hail Storm "Now, dmaxwell, You know destroying MS hardware is illegal. Didn't you read the Trems of surrender from your goverment in yesterdays news paper"
dmaxwell fires the HERF and seconds later his door is being kicked down. F.B.I!!!
agent666 "dmaxwell, Did you forget destroying part of the system will not work we are every where. We have decided not to press charges as long as you go on Ilovehailstorm.com and profess that you love hail storm and were brain washed by "
dmaxwell "But, I've never meet him."
agent666 "Ok, if you say so... death it is. 'Hail storm fire up the chair'"
.. . . . . . . . .
Setting, A dark windly night in a small town... AlienChaos "I wish I has a soda" Hail Storm "I have orderd a Coke for you" AlienChaos "I don't need one I have pespi in the frige cancel order' Hail Storm "I'm sorry, Pespi is not a choice" Alien Choas "Hail storm Cancel last order" Hail Storm "Look Alien Chaos, I know where you live what you look like, and much more from my nifty camers and voice software. You want to order the COKE!" Alien Chaos "Damn..." Next day, A large crate of Coke is delivered. AlienChoas proceds to try to uninstall hailstorm from his home...All your world belong to MicroSoft... Hail Storm "Alien Chaos, resistance if futile" Alien Chaos "No!!! I don't want you to invade my home and watch my every move and hear every thing." Hail Storm "It's too late Alien Chaos how can you stop us? Not even the (insert three letters) could manage to get into every home in the US, let alone the world." to be continued...
.. . . . . . . . .
...thereupon someone will probably figure out how to phone up and finagle people into unlocking other peoples' cars... The best case scenario is:
:) )
The M.O. gets written up in 2600
Everyone who's anyone laughs about it
and, ergo,
No one does it. Still, I'd prefer not.
(Incidentally, Emmanuel and Interrobang are case studies in what happens when old English majors go bad in the back of the fridge.
I'm not a geek, I'm just a clever script.
Anyone remember some book where at the end there was this section where some guy named the "AntiChrist" tried to unify all of the world's governments, religions and cultures, and then forced everyone to submit to having the "mark of the beast" placed on them someplace to engage in commerce. Hmm. I don't recall what book that was, but it seems kind of fitting here.
Best. Comment. Ever. Enjoy!
I dont know about you, but I only trust people and organizations that eran that trust. Something MS has never managed to do. In order for me to ever trust a company with resources as far reaching as MS they would have to extend some trust to me (as part of the general public). They're whole corprate structure, and buisness model/philosophy says to me "We don't want you to know anything we dont tell you, and we dont want to tell you anything." When any information does surface about thier business practices, they spin doctor it.
/. a few days ago that noted that some Ms trusted Info product like Hailstorm(I dont remember the name) has a clause in the EULA that allows MS to do anything they want with the data, including Selling it or reproducing it with out consent.
The MS spokesman in the article said something about people fearing creditcard use at first to. That is because people tend to resist change. Its only natural. But CC's didn't become very popular untill all the privacy fears were aleviated. (CC's can be used to track spending, but that is about it). Hailstorm intends on covering a great deal of information, not just spending habits, and I just read an article on
MS and Trusted shouldn't even be in the same sentence togeather.
Sadly enough I think the general public will probably love HailStorm, because MS will underplay any potential problems as 'mad paranoid ramblings of a small anti-MS community' until something goes wrong that is. (and something will go wrong with this product, as something ALWAYS goes wrong with thier products).
my seven reasons not to trust Big Bill's old boys club.
1. The above mentioned EULA.
2. NSA_KEY
3. Strongarm business tactics
4. More security flaws and bugs (per product) then any other company.
5. A flagrant disreguard for the consumer.
6. they're support system is a racket. (make and sell a buggy product -WindowsXX-, Package the bugs up and sell them -TechNet-, Sell a Cert on using the Bug info -MSCE-)
7. Spokespeople who use phrases like "Open Source is unamerican". Last time i checked so are monopolies.
Im sure there are more, I just cant remember anymore.
In short they are a large company who are only out to make money and they don't care who or what they step on to do it. If you think for a second that they are going to protect your rights at the expense of a higher profit margin you are wrong. They have a consistant patter of behavior, and why would they change now?
RA7
-
"Consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds" - RWE
So many people are expecting this thing to come out. Take Hong Kong Government as an example:
Hong Kong Government is rolling out a service called Electronic Service Delivery ESD to provide public services such as submission of civil applications online. Later they will digitalize the personal identity card so that citizens records are stored digitally and can be accessed by ESD for fully automated public services.
It sounds great, except that the level of security is pretty low. They are using Microsoft-IIS/4.0(try telnet www.esdlife.com 80, type 'GET HEAD / HTTP 1.1' then two ENTER you'll see). A related site had been hacked twice in 24 hours in May last year. Regardlessly, they rush the services to the public and throw the security and piracy behind their head.
From this story we can see big organizations will only rush what they want to do and security/piracy will be their least concern. If someone like Microsoft would help them do the job they are more than happy to take it, regardless of all the security/piracy issues.
With Passport, we already let them keep our passwords in their (oh so secure) servers, and trust them not to misuse that information, despite terms of use that specifically allow them too. Now we're supposed to pay them to do the same thing, but link it to extra information so that even if we try to be anonymous on the Internet, it can be linked to us?
Not for me, thanks. You can take your expensive, invasive database, and shove it.
Even Slashdot wants to hide some things
That didn't work, when they went around asking for people's cooperation to have all their professional experience bottled and assimilated into some high-level haiku database.
So this time they're really getting into it.
Centralize the whole thing with MS DogGone, and one literally has a massive Borg leviathan, Habor's Augmentor, dream catcher.
Soul-sucking highway robbery.
Decontexting the email text will preserve the email privacy of individuals while appropriating their communicated knowledge (as a sort of toll for free email ?)
Add in Speechify the speech recognition software purchased by MS .NET service group,
and you can listen in on the phones and do
Matrix-style brain.sux
If you want to buy into information conglomerations like MS Hailstorm's (which sounds really 3rd reich) puddle-pumping hellfire you'll have to descend through the inferno of purgatories; P2P, B2B, B2C and FU2, oh my !
MS pulls up beside your rock in a Rolls, rolls down the window and says:
"Pardon me sir,
but do you have any Grey Matter ?"
Oh, yo! 'xcuse me fa saying anything smot.
And so the Belcerebon's were born.
4U/.
Microsoft gives us yet ANOTHER reason not to trust them.
Douglas Adams
1952-2001 :(
Think of the power that a single company would have if it possessed all this information in one place! This is how Stalin got his big break; he began as secretary to the Party, a job that most people ignored. Eventually, Stalin had political connections to all the major Soviet power-holders, besides considerable information on them. It was easy for him to step into office and become dictator from that point.
In an ideal world, it wouldn't be bad having a service like this. In fact, there is no real reason that MS (or any other company) would need to centralize my information; there is every reason in the world that *I* should be the only source of centralized information on me. MS could just as easily arrange for my home system to perform this service; it just wouldn't provide MS with as much leverage if they did.
Taking stuff apart since 1969 (TM)
Did anyone else imagine the evil supervillain laugh right after this quote?
You've obviously never been a victom of identity theft. It takes forever to get cleared up and is neither easy or fun. You will find your credit screwed six ways from Sunday and have to refight the same battle every month for months. See, Credit Reporting Agencies get information from each other and you'll get it cleared off of some and then they will exchange information and one of the ones you didn't get cleared off of will resubmit it to the ones you did. Start over and repeat for months.
"If there is nothing you are willing to die for, then you are not really alive." Myself
From the Article:
Financial analysts say Microsoft may be the only company in the world with the skill and clout to pull it off
Are they kidding? Clout, maybe, but skill? It'll never happen.
-----------------
www.lucernesys.comHorizon: Calendar-based personal finance
Don't need M$. Don't need Windows. Don't need NOT YET (umm, .NET)
and all my stuff gets copied from portal to portal.
Credit cards and phone numbers aren't enough to steal an 'identity.'
The article samples a dissenting opinion by saying: "This is sort of what defines you as an individual and I think there's some real issues there about giving some company control of that data," said Mark Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center, a nonprofit policy group in Washington, D.C.
I think there are real issues about saying that what defines me as an individiual is data that I could give to Microsoft.
Lots of things are scary. Lots of things are stupid, too. But it's easy enough to cancel a credit card and/or file a claim about a purchase that I didn't make that I don't mind giving out the number.
We're living in a time when we are, as a country, trying to figure out how much of ourselves is information, how much we are willing to risk for the convenience of handling our information quickly, and how much of our information we're willing to share. A service like this is a good test, and I'm glad they're willing to do it.
Of course, I probably won't use it.
This IS voluntarily. If you don't like it, don't use it.
Its not like MS is forcing you to give them info about yourself.
If you are in a car accident, HailStorm could automatically send your medical history and insurance information to the hospital before the ambulance arrived. Then it could page your spouse and reschedule your appointments.
Because thats what I would be thinking of on my to the Hospital... those appointments. I don't know whats scarier, this technological overkill or the fact that Microsoft Passport, with its TOS will know about it. I think Ill go get rid of my hotmail account while I'm ahead.
What Microsoft is doing is convenient: centralize it all on Microsoft servers and Microsoft standards. Forget about federation, server-to-server protocols and all that. What Microsoft is doing is also cheaper in the short run an quicker to market (which is why it will likely beat open standards). Nobody but Microsoft can deliver this, not because they have any better technology, but because they have the market position.
The loser is the consumer, who will be denied any kind of market choice again: your choice may be to buy Microsoft or not schedule any appointments with your doctor, dentist, or insurance broker.
On the bright side: there is a good chance that this will not fly. With always-on Internet connections, people can control their data themselves. Even without any privacy incentives, answering machines still sell well, despite personal voice mail offerings. Many people will probably prefer to keep their personal data in cheap, secure Internet servers in their home, no larger and no more complex than an answering machine.
HailStorm would ultimately act as an online super secretary, arranging appointments, filing documents, reminding the boss of a relative's birthday and even helping buy and ship an appropriate gift. Buy and ship an appropriate gift... as in, use my credit card, perhaps without authorization, to purchase something deemed appropriate, perhaps a copy of Windows 2004.
I don't know, but this frightens me.
The One,
The Only,
--The Kid
the liberator who destroyed my property has realigned my perception
www.quantumheresy.com
1) People are already giving away all this information. There are thousands of websites that ask you where you live, what is your credit card number and what you eat for breakfast.
2) People in general are not very concerned about giving away this information. In fact, life in the US (I am originally from Europe but live in the US right now) is totally firghtening from the privacy point of view. One can get tons of private data about you from government institutions, knowing your SSN and/or driver's license number, and people are giving them away everywhere. But real people in real life don't seem to worry.
3) Microsoft servers (I mean the servers that MS manages, not the products) are actually one of the most secure ones in the world. Absolutely every week someone tries to DoS www.microsoft.com or www.msn.com, they are the #1 target for every hacker. But the availability of these remains very high because MS is actually utilizing very strong security procedures (both computer and physical security) around these servers.
4) Most of the web sites around the world where people give out their personal information and credit card numbers are significantly less secure. Just read the news or visit the IRC channels that script kiddies use. The same goes about your medical histories etc. Computers in your doctor's office are most probably way easier to hack than Microsoft.
5) Nobody is forcing you to give out anything that you don't want to. If you are really concerned that someone would harm you then just don't give them that info or give wrong information or whatever. Opinions that Microsoft would use any sanctions if you don't do it are just silly. MS is not police, MS is a software company.
6) I repeat it once more: Microsoft is a software company. MS is not interested in who do you date and what you eat. MS is creating Hailstorm primarily as a platform for 3rd party vendors who would then create 95% of the solutions running on it. It's doing it to compete with other similar platforms from other software companies. Exactly like Windows is competing with Linux. And Microsoft's primary concern is not to sell Windows to customers but to sell it to other software developers who would create applications for it and thus leverage the system. It will be exactly the same business plan with Hailstorm.
Therefore - this is not the end of the world, it's not even going to restructure the society. Everything in Hailstorm is already existing in our current society, Hailstorm would just create another platform to help people do some stuff more conveniently.
When men used to be men
We're sorry your pilot was a fucking idiot.
Signed,
The United States
"Don't execute the crew" should go without saying. That would be a real good way to start a war.
I tend to worry about Microsoft being able to tell companies where to go, ut I am heartened by the lack of companies that migrated from NT4 to 2000, their continuing stupidity and the fact I just saw a Corel-Linux with Samba box in my Companies network running part of our UK office. The hard part will be getting the general public to accept Microsoft alternatives.
MS seems to be the only big company that still regularly makes "we're gonna change the world" announcements. Hailstorm sounds fantastic as a concept. There are a ton of privacy issues associated with it, but the vision is a technophile's dream.
Not that it will be reality anytime soon, since Hailstorm is staffed by the same geniuses who brought you Passport. Remember that this is the team that took two years to bring you a simplistic cookie-based universal login (well, universal between a few MS services anyway), and never proofread their own Terms of Use. They're assisted by the executives who brought you the lame duck that is WebTV, and other assorted worthies. Anyway, don't hold your breath on this one.
To its credit, Microsoft is pointing to the future; the convergence of messaging technologies will happen. Why is MS the only company with the guts to say so with such conviction?
Invisible Agent
Invisible Agent
This post is a mirror; when a monkey stares in, no hacker gazes out.
True, we live in a time where information talks. But, do we have to be a slave to it?
As much as I don't like the idea of utilities like HailStorm, the burden of maintaining privacy is the job of society as a whole. Those who feel comfortable divulging extremely personal information can and those of us who wish not to can remain, for all intents and purposes, anonymous to Microsoft. So, we'll at least have the freedom to choose.
As a society I think we prize ease and convience over privacy and that is sad, but people don't understand what giving away that much information is opening them up to. Only recently have people had their identities stolen because they used their credit card at a restaurant or similar. People are hard headed and don't learn easily. They have to get screwed over before they learn not to do something again.
So, let those who are unwise and unwary get sucked in and you and I can stay safely out of the way.
I am not particularly hard core about 'living anonymously', but I do steer clear of excessive doling out of my SSN and such. However, if you have become sufficiently paranoid you can check out this privacy guide to learn some sweet tricks on how to fall between the cracks.
Cpunkgrrl
"Are these questions testing whether I'm a replicant or a lesbian, Mr. Deckard?" -Rachael Tyrell
Berk Watkins
Other evil things Microsoft do...
/.
* Employees required to butcher small children
* Carry shotguns at all times in case of competition
* Invent viruses that live in peppermints and require msoffice to remove
* Prank phone call Linus Torvalds and send him pizzas he didn't order
* Troll on
* They have no idea what "Mud the far cuss" means
Thats about it. Mud the far cuss.
I feel like, everytime i talk trash about Microsoft, I hear this van pull up outside my house. It's always that same toilet paper van. Anyways, about Microsoft getting on my ner....Oh, a knock at the door, i'll be right back...