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Xbox As A Server Farm Commodity Box
ballpoint writes: "Yahoo has this story suggesting the Xbox as a cheap platform for a web server, by packaging Apache as a game. The article was written by Adam Barr, an ex-Microsoft employee who previously suggested running Linux on the Xbox. I suppose there are still more 'games' for the Xbox in the pipeline." With all the talk about making Dreamcasts into rendering farms, perhaps that would be a good application as well.
Not only will the XGPU be modified (it will have an extra pipeline), but it will NOT use an AGP slot. It will rest directly on the mainboard and will NOT have to travel through an AGP bridge. The XGPU and CPU will both be directly accessing each other via the same high-speed memory with no buses in the middle. This eliminates a bottleneck possibility. You cannot put it in a pc. Also, the PIII has half the cache and an extra SSE unit. The ram is 200mhz of DDR.
Some posters write that MS would still make money because the Apache would have to be licensed. The games licensing goes as $x per game sold or y% of games sales price. How much is a game? $50 ??, then the license is at most $20 I would guess. Now look at the Xbox price (estimated) at $300 (with a $200 loss per box for MS), expecting the players to buy 10 or 20 games to work out to high profits. But instead I sell Xbox + 1 game (Apache) for $350, with NO further game sales to that Xbox. $350 apache server with $20 extra to MS over its original $300. Even with license fee to MS it works well for the server farm and bad for MS
I hope XBox can use a mouse for some of its games (strategy, etc) The Super NES had a cool little mouse which was pretty useful for the few games that supported it. (Lord of the Rings, Mario Paint)
That would be a really cool app. Heck, having an sshable Linux install like the Cobalt Qube running on Xboxes would be awesome. Almost enough to make me buy one.
:)
And, obviously, if it could run Linux, then Linux could run apache. I suppose that just a web server would be good, but why think small? Use it for a cheap firewall or router. Run sendmail. Run RC5.
And, obviously, make a beowulf cluster of these.
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pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate.
If the content on the site has anything to do with the Microsoft X-Box, prepare to have a pack of lawyers land on you very quickly.
As I have said many times, true render farms need loads of memory.
I wouldn't want a render box with less than 1 gig of ram. Regardless of what renderer you are using, if you really need a render farm, you are going to have to spend money on MHZ and memory.
I wish it could be different.
-I just work here... how am I supposed to know?
And Microsoft wonders why Apache and Linux owns the web hosting market. That's the most horrific story I have heard all day.
If Microsoft really wanted to own the web server arena what they would do is release a slimmed down version of Windows 2000 complete with development tools, Commerce server (and all that entails) and then price it low enough that you would be crazy not to use it. Limit it to one processor machines, and cut out nifty stuff like failover, but make it a fairly complete package. As it now stands I can afford the added cost of learning Linux and PostgreSQL and Zope, because I know that it is time invested in tools that I will be able to use over and over again royalty free. If Microsoft were to release a more useful set of tools for a reasonably low price I would be very tempted to rethink my strategy.
They could then upsell to developers and businesses that needed the full version of the tools. As soon as your business got big enough for a dual processor machine, or failover, or even putting the database on a separate machine. Of course, at that point the company probably wouldn't feel nearly as bad about the cost of the full blown version of the tools.
If Microsoft goes into the hardware business, especially the server hardware business, then you can bet your last nickel that the hardware OEMs will go on a media frenzy about how cool their new "Linux application servers" are. The last thing that the OEMs are going to allow is for Microsoft to undercut them in their fastest growing market. Since they won't be able to compete with Microsoft on price (MS gets Windows for free) they will have no choice but to use Linux to make up the difference.
Linux servers made by folks that make inexpensive hardware for a living are very likely to be less expensive than the best that Microsoft can do.
My guess is that the Blade Server edition will simply be a low-cost slimmed down version of Windows 2000. Of course, it will probably have very limited use, and it will still be more expensive than free. Microsoft can try and compete in the low cost arena, but my guess is that they haven't got a prayer. Linux is nearly a match for the best that Microsoft can throw at it in the server arena. A cut rate version of Windows would look positively anemic compared to what you get for free with Linux.
Microsoft's only chance, in the web hosting arena, is to fold more features into the OS. Heck, I wouldn't personally even consider Microsoft for my web servers until it could touch the usefulness I get out of Linux, PostgreSQL, and Zope at a low basic price (and with nicer interfaces). Those tools may be harder to learn, but the knowledge pays for itself easily over time.
my thinkpad has been running pretty much 24/7 since I bought it last October.
They make money on the games. Games hardware is heavily subsidised.
But if they are using commodity hardware then why not port Linux and use this heavily subsidised hardware for something more useful.
Want a *really* cheap web server farm? Supercomputer? Go by 500 Xboxes and load Linux/Apache/Beowulf. Clean out your local computer store.
Boy, I could see Dell/Compaq being pissed.
Deleted
Don't be ridiculous.
With hardware this cheap, the machines are disposable. You don't fix them, you throw them away and put ina new one. You also don't put the critical stuff on a single system, you build redundancy into your network so that is a box fails, nobody notices.
Deleted
how many do we need to buy to drive M$ out of business?
It doesn't matter how many we buy - if there's one thing MS is good at, it's business - they'd be foolish to bet their core business on a game console. Sure - we could make them lose a signifigant ammount of capital - but the number of consoles produced will likely be VERY carefully balanced against the licensing fees they've already collested from prospective developers.
It's time that the PC market as a whole take a good look at what Microsoft is doing.
Microsoft wants open source and Linux gone! They have said so in every medium I know. They want to control their strangle-hold on IP and will change the hardware to do so. How does this affect you? The thing that threatens Microsoft's loss leader business model is use of the xbox as a way to run cheap Intel/AMD compatible (no fees to MS) software. Even in the Xboxes design MS is gearing up for a legal battle, before their product ships! The xbox will die if Linux is ported quickly and many people buy xboxes as cheap free software compatible PCs.
Notice I mentioned Intel and AMD. That would not be the case once xbox takes over PC markets with their MS bastard son OS USB keyboards and mice. Their will be no more AMD. Come to think of it, anyone who makes hardware for PCs will have to cut a deal with MS or file for bankruptcy. We know MS office or Exchange server for xbox is not far behind the games. If xbox succeeds as a console, it will succeed as a PC all of you will be out of a job! Ho hum an unfortunate casualty in the war against open source software. To bad you little hardware PC guys couldn't do something about it. Oh wait there might be this one thing...
Make damn sure that Linux is ported to the Xbox in a matter of weeks!!!!!
Put some techs on it the week it comes out. If you have anyone on your staff who knows Linux get em on it right away. Coordinate with other commodity HW manufactures. Get Linux on a DVD. Get Linux on the Hard drive. Make a distro. Make a HOWTO and get it up on linuxdoc.org. If not I will have to go back to making excuses for MS (on the enterprise xbox of course) and you will have to go to social security.
Novel theory: Modern Man evolved from psychopath
Post intelligently: I didn't think I grunted much!
Post calmly: I am worried but calm.
If you can't be deep, be funny: Not much room for that.
Read Slashdot regularly: I do that
Post Early: as soon as I can say somthing intelligent
Post often:Thats what this is.
Stay on topic: Apache==free software on xbox (close enough.)
Be original:I gleened info from other posters and drew an original conclusion
Read it before you post:Did that to.
Log in as a registered user:Did that.
I can understand how this post might not get any moderation, but troll. I think I scared someone!
Novel theory: Modern Man evolved from psychopath
Look I don't know who moderated me as troll in the above post, but it dosn't make sense. Here are Slashdot's tips for karma improvment...
Post intelligently: I didn't think I grunted much!
Post calmly: I am worried but calm.
If you can't be deep, be funny: Not much room for that.
Read Slashdot regularly: I do that
Post Early: as soon as I can say somthing intelligent
Post often:Thats what this is.
Stay on topic: Apache==free software on xbox (close enough.)
Be original:I gleened info from other posters and drew an original conclusion
Read it before you post:Did that to.
Log in as a registered user:Did that.
I can understand how this post might not get any moderation, but troll? I think I scared someone!
Novel theory: Modern Man evolved from psychopath
The hardware isn't the cost in the web game, it's bandwidth and after that, administrators.. If all the computer in the server farm where free, it wouldn't really change the bottom line that much.. Still gotta pay for the bandwidth, still gotta pay the admins..
Make the next bit game for the gameboy.
Make it "networked" such that every day or so you attach the gameboy to a modem and syncronize your game with a server.
Have it do processing in the background.
Now you have harnessed the computing power of all the 7-15 year-olds.
JET Program: see Japan, meet intere
They're reportedly using nonflashable roms for the bios and stripped down win2k kernel. So it's likey you can't boot linux on it until somone figures out how to make kind of a loadlin+freebios binary or even a new rom for it.
So don't buy one expecting running linux on on it.
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wolf at you sir!
The fact that you can't plug any old PC USB peripheral into the Xbox as a controller is a *good* thing. The best thing that consoles have over a PC is that they are pretty much *fixed hardware platforms*. The last thing you want is to be in a situation where you've got to download patches and drivers for your USB peripherals and then have them fucking up on your favourite game.
The other thing to note is that a USB port is a very bad port to use on the front of a console. Obviously you need something which fits use in the living room.
But don't expect me to fly in 'em (Or sail in any of their battleships.)
M$ is a terrorists's best friend.
Closed hardware, closed software and an inferior crash-prone attitude where your life is acceptable colateral damage. I see very little difference between the regard for others as evidenced by either Bill Gates and his crew and Tim McVeigh and his clique and Sadam Hussein and his rabble and...
The vultures of history are unfortunately replete to satiation with the carrion such disdain for others engenders.
I pity his kids when they try to get any allowance of the ol' man.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
The author shows his ignorance by comparing raw storage cost with a network storage device. While the network storage device certainly is more expensive per gig, it also likely supports every RAID level imaginable, with multiple hardware redundancies. I would imagine that it probably supports fibre either out of the box or with a reasonable add-on. And it likely does a doze other things "correctly" from an enterprise computing point of view.
Yeah, the X-toy beats it in terms of raw storgage costs, but what level of support will Microsoft give you if your X-box goes up in flames? I've used a number of different network storage devices that had support available that rivals Sun -- if you box goes down you can have an engineer on-site fixing it in a matter of a few hours.
While the x-toy might make a fine web-server for a very low end, low volume site, it wouldn't handle anything that really takes a beating. Morevoer, any IS manager who puts anything close to mission critical on such a machine would be fired within minutes of such a decision being discovered. And deservidly so!!
The x-toy is going to be cheap hardware, good for some toy uses, but no company (and certainly no IS manager) who knows computing is going to ever do anything of real significance on this machine. It simply isn't designed to be the kind of durable, dependable, servicable, supportable, supported hardware that companies demand. The days of running your company on your kids Apple IIc (or its modern day equivilant - the X-toy) are over.
If Microsoft goes into the hardware business ...
Right on, they won't.
My view is that Blade Server, if done correctly, could be a decent idea. Get rid of SMB and RPC (can it be done without breaking the admin tools?), make it netbootable, make it cheaper, etc.
I knew I guy involved in setting up a webfarm on NT4. Horrors of horrors as he somehow hacked the boxes to boot from a read-only network OS install while still using a ram disk to handle all the registry and filesystem writes that NT demands to end up with a totally unsupported configuration that costs $500/box (significant sum when whe are talking about cheap PCs clustered). Anyway, MS's current product line is totally uncompetitive in this market.
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Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
The Atari & Activision case has no bearing. Atari (and other platform makers of the day) wanted to produce ALL products for their machines.
+Activision ships a 2600 game.
+Atari claims they can't do that without a licence - Negotiations proceed, Atari wants too much money.
+They go to court - Activision wins.
Why? Because US law is clear that you can't require licenced software for your hardware - doesn't matter if it's a PC or a game console. You can't just wave your hands and pretend that this doesn't apply to Sony or Microsoft.
Not to mention that half of the garbage in the pre-crash flood was from Atari itself (and it's horrid inventory control didn't help either).
I pointed out that game licences are still common in the industry for other very good reasons. Perhaps, as you argue, this is the state of highest economic goodness. But that doesn't make it the law.
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Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
Just one point. Commerce Server is actually pretty specialized application server platform. It's not really a "shopping cart in a box". You would want to run it on a fairly beefy SMP machine.
I suspect Microsoft is looking at their Hotmail conversion and then thinking "How could we make a conversion at this scale realistic for a 3rd party", meaning that the primary impedement isn't the database software/hardware (Hotmail still runs on a Sun E10K/Oracle instalation) or the application/application server, it's the administrative flexibility and software cost of the clustered webfarm.
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Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
I thought about that, but I think it would come under the interoperability clause, if you could crack the protection in the first place.
And yes, I'm aware of DeCSS, but IMO that was poor legal reasoning, and also not as clear of a case as "interoperability" (People wanted a Disc licenced by the MPAA to run a drive licenced by the MPAA with software not licenced by the MPAA. Now if someone wanted to make "ReCSS" to make copy-protected DVD disk without paying the MPAA tax, that would probably win over.)
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Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
They can use the legal precident of the video game consoles to back the actions up in court....
I think you are blowing hot air -- there are no such legal standards. In fact, just the opposite: Sega sued Accolade (?) for actually including a "Sega(tm)" logo in a unlicenced game. Accolade won because it turned out the console wouldn't boot unless the game contained that bitmap, so breaking copyright was necessary for interoperability.
As Atari versus Activision proved, there is no way a console company can required 3rd parties to obtain a licence to produce software, in the US.
However, licencing has become common for a few reasons:
1) Forcing 3rd parties to licence is legal in Japan, a big market. (This plus Nintendo's US patented cart slot pretty much required 3rd parties to deal with Nintendo.)
2) Game systems have gotten so complex hardware-wise that it's useful to be on the official dev program and get the docs and SDKs.
3) Game systems can use crypto keys to autheniticate media. The first system to do this was the Atari 7800, BTW, but apparently MS will also be implementing this in the XBox.
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Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
I thought Microsoft has announced that there will be some sort of crypto verification in the bootcode of the thing to prevent people from running non-approved software. (If they didn't, their game licencing plan will just be bypassed.)
I believe the quote was "If someone gets Linux running on the XBox, there's a job waiting at Microsoft for them."
Anyway, check ZDNet about Microsoft's murmuring about a Win XP "Blade Server" edition. Essentially a stripped down web server setup designed to compete with Linux/Unix that will no doubt have it's own specialized set of server hardware. MS has enough resources to keep this project seperate from the XBox (and keep the traditional Windows hardware OEMs happy).
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Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
A banana-shaped screwdriver? The only way this makes sense is that the shafts in the case the screws are accessable from are curved. I think Home Depot sells a flexible shaft for extending drill or screwdriver bits into wall voids. If they don't, I know that any decent electrical supply vendor does.
More clever would be to design a custom screwdriver bit *and* a curved shaft. It still wouldn't prevent a determined hacker with a flex-shaft drill bit from drilling it out completely, but it'd be a mofo to put back together..
Is it possible for MS to lock the hardware to prevent alternative OS images from running on it? Obviously there's a limit as to how much they can prevent the determined screwdriver and soldering iron weilding hardware hacker from subverting the hardware, but I'm thinking of some kind of integrated componentry that would power the machine off or otherwise cripple it unless an MS-approved OS or application was running on it.
Such a lock might fall short of someone really talented, but the vast majority of dilettantes looking for a low budget server box (including people who want farms) may be totally stuck with a games-only machine.
Be careful, the Activision decision was a long time ago. In October 1998, clever/evil developers were given a new weapon. All you need is for the pathway to some vital IO system (preferably an input device, such a disk or CD) to flow through crypto/scrambling hardware. Then any software that, say, wants to read from the CD, must either be linked with a licensed library, or be a DMCA-violating "piracy tool."
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As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
I'm not sure I see why you wouldn't want just run linux on the thing. Remote administration would be far easier - if you could come up with an install that didn't need any console input you would never need to create drivers for keyboard/mouse/video in linux, and beyond that its just an intel chip anyway so you don't need to do any major kernel hacking. If you're thinking of using these to sell web hosting, wouldn't it make a lot more sense to have an OS that will allow full remote configuration and access, instead of hacking a stripped down OS up to functionallity? Who knows how "broken" the version of win2k on Xbox is, but I'm guessing it wont be just a matter of running an apache installer, so why not use the time getting linux/bsd booting on it instead of a single app?
Eh, we know both will happen in the end anyway..
Now if only Valve would port Half-Life or Dynamix would produce a Tribes 2 dedicated server port! What a lovely dedicated server these $300 boxes would be!
if we can figure out how to recover our cost in buying one of these - eg. by being able to run linux/apache or even just for salvage parts - we could buy these things in mass, which has two desireable outcomes. we break even (or maybe even make a few $) and
;]
1. M$ looses money (i saw $200 somewhere) on each one.
2. if M$ can't keep up with the (artificial) demand, paying customers (ie customers who are also going to buy games) won't be able to get there hands on them
how many do we need to buy to drive M$ out of business?
[ this reminds me of milo's cornering of the cotton market in catch 22 - he agreed to buy the entire crop at a fixed price, but the demand fell so that he was selling below cost, allowing the farmers to buy it from him and sell it right back at the higher fixed cost - but then i'm on a tangent
we probably also need to make enough noise to prevent the game companies from seeing the huge demand and actually believing that the platform (as opposed to the cheap hardware) is popular.
My blog
True, if nothing else it would make a great entertainment centre. With that processor it could play DivX as well.
Naturally it would take some hacking first, so at least I would wait until the price dropped a bit before getting one.
You might be able to get customers to buy into it if you can properly defend your position (pass along savings to customers, large amount of clustering and redundancy of machines for the same $$$, etc.). On the other hand, what about the High Site-to-Server sites? (ie. we'll put 2700 websites for a user and each one gets miniscule amount of traffic).
:)
In that case, the sites are often either low or no cost (so the Customer is less likely to complain, especially if you can be cost competitive). Also, in those cases the customer is less likely to actually see the physical site. If they query the machine then it would still probably be Linux (or BSD) running on x86. Perhaps they might not recognize the distribution (or else they might, in which case they either will think its cool, or a terrible idea).
But it doesn't necessarily follow that its a bad move to use them as web servers. Heck, what about for the burgeoning home market? Suddenly everyone and his brother is getting a Cable Modem or a DSL line. More and more kids now a days are experimenting with Linux, webs servers, etc. While the idea of cheap, and most likely non-secure, boxes in proliferation is a bit scary, I can see the market for a 'Linux X-Box setup kit' that includes a pre-compiled version of Linux (and some standard utils on a DVD/CD), perhaps a plug converter if the USB port has a different shape (assuming the Protocol changes are reverse engineered), and perhaps a partition utility for dual booting. Suddenly your game console could host your web-site (or you could develope games on it, transfer them to your PC w/CD-R, and pass them to your friends). It would be verry funny if the X-Box became what the Indrema aspired to
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Jim
Just put them behind a load-balancer.
This is a pretty common way to scale webserving to 'n' machines, while allowing machines to fail.
Or you could use two (or more) of them with
failover. Something where one takes over the
mac address of the other on failure.
or... Imagine a beow... nah...
What if they had those little penguin logo stickers on them?
:-)
Now compare your impression against little windows logos...
The only problem with this is that it'll affect that small group of people who'll by a game and then play for the next 12 hours, hit pause, let it sit until we get up the next day, and then play for another 10-12 hours.
Yeah, so it's a small segment, the problem is, a lot of these folks are the early adopters, too.
Cool geek factor aside, it seems ironic, if not silly, that someone would want to buy one of these to run Linux. The Linux user's classic apology for using Windows is that it's for games, so I don't see why you'd bother running Linux on a box designed for games.
As an example, consider my recent hardware upgrade. I looked up the parts I bought where I bought them, and then checked Pricewatch for the absolute lowest prices on the same items. For a 1.0-GHz Athlon (200-MHz FSB), Biostar M7MIA, and IBM Deskstar 75GXP 30GB (I bought the 45GB model, but it was no longer listed), the place where I bought them has those items at $425. The cheapest prices on Pricewatch for the same items added up to $390. That's not much of a difference, but that's only for three components (I bought the DDR memory for the motherboard from another vendor and used the other parts that I already had). Factor in the other bits that you need for a complete system and the disparity can only increase.
In any case, with the quantities Microsoft will be buying, I'm reasonably sure they can get better prices than you or I can get. They're also not likely to charge themselves the "Windows tax" (otherwise known as "license fee") that they charge other computer makers.
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
It has standard IDE components, right? just swap the cables, and it'll boot from the hard drive.
With a price point at about $300US, its unlikely many people will be buying them to strip the 8GB drive. I imagine MS isn't too worried about hardware hackers (there aren't enough around, really). A few people will buy them to do something other than play games, but most won't. There'll be a story about people doing other things with them, and MS will get some free advertising.
Why would they bother spending money to stop the drive from booting when it would be so simple to burn a bootloader "game"? It doesn't solve anything, from MS's point of view, to do so.
They are taking hits on the price because they want to make money on the software/licensing side of things. Also, I would like to see how long it takes somebody to hack up the drivers for the video card and dvd player. I would guess pretty long because they documentation for that stuff will probably not becoming out of Redmond anytime soon. I am not saying it won't be possible but Micro$oft will make it as hard as they possibly can.
...and then it hits you, google really know's what they're doin.... Buyin lots of cheap machines as opposed to buying a few expensive ones
~~~ They call me Little John, but don't let the name fool you...in real life I'm very big.
Yeah, cause I need my command line to look all spiffy in 3D!
~Sean
Unless of course it's already PC hardware. But I am guessing that it's only a matter of time before someone has it worked out.
AussiePenguin
Melbourne, Australia
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Jeremy
Melbourne, Australia
Jabber Australia
Stop babbling.
It has components. It has to be cheap. Components have drivers. Reinventing the wheel costs money.
Microsoft is not going to (re)invent MS-Ethernet, MS-DVD, MS-AGP. They'd be losing more money than they already are (--> www.billparish.com --).
Consoles are a suicidal market anyway.
Do you see people making a proprietary film type supported by afew companies which only works with certain types of projectors?
Movie theatres would go out of business.
Besides they already had Linux running on it. NT351 would boot but the oh-so-special microkernel refused to boot.
I really hate it when people spout speculative ZDNet-style blather like this.
Christ technical commentary IS NOT creative writing.
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
Both have been ported.
You're missing the point. Whether or not MS makes all the games for the X-box or drags licensing fees out of third parties is irrelevant; if not enough games are sold, MS won't make its negative console margin back.
My favorite level is 'holes and hackers'. I just love patching my security holes before 1377 k7dd7ez come in and 0wn m3.
Lets see here....
...Adam Barr, an ex-Microsoft employee...
...suggested running Linux on the Xbox...
Yep, I under stand the ex-Microsoft part more than ever now.
http://www.freebsd.org
X-box isn't the release name, is it? I thought it was just the "working name", like Chicago.
-no broken link
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
The Anti-Blog
- Glad I bought a PS2 with mostly standard USB (but I'll still buy an XBox anyway {Go Apache!})
PS2 has an ilink port on it which is _firewire_ not usb
sure enough, guess i havent been paying much attention to it lately...
anyone who designes a gaming console that cant withstand "a couple of hours" turned on is an idiot. as for ps and ps2, they can go weeks turned on just fine (ours is often playing the SSX opening demo for days before someone realizes they left it on).
ever play ff7 in one sitting? (beginning to end).
Generally this is true that Microsoft likes to "extend" protocols in in-compatible ways. However the USB protocol used in the XBox is the standard version, all Microsoft has done is changed the plugs and sockets that it uses.
Red Hat and Debian run my "complex" general purpose cyrix mediaGX boxes just fine. 98 on the other hand has BSoD fits every other day. Surely, the Xbox will not run as well under either. I have my doubts about the Xbox running Linux at all and kind of wonder why anyone would bother.
More power to the folks who work on this, but this one is not for me. There are so many platforms to work with that are less encumbered and do really cool things. If MS treats its hardware specs like software specs, this box will be be different and broken every year.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
That being said, I have no idea if MS plans this.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
blessings,
"Only in their dreams can men truly be free 'twas always thus, and always thus will be."
--Tom Schulman
There is no reason to assume Micros**t will not control the consumer PC market within 5 years.
blessings,
"Only in their dreams can men truly be free 'twas always thus, and always thus will be."
--Tom Schulman
Really? My Toshiba 2805 is meant to (by me, not Toshiba) and usually does run 24*7*365.250001...
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
How 'bout this. Require all newly shipping games to have firmware security updates on them and require the firmware updates to be installed in order to play the game. Then they switch all production over to the new security updates. Suddenly it becomes very hard to find boxes without the security updates. Not to mention these things will be targetting online gaming. They could be required to auto run Windows Update before/durring every online gaming session. If Microsoft really wants to they could very tightly control the software that runs on these machines.
set softtabstop=4 shiftwidth=4 expandtab nocp worlddomination
The X-Box may share a lot of architecture with PC's but this definitely not going to be a PC. It's a console and it will have standard console restrictions on what it can do. There were easy ways around this on the Dreamcast. There won't be on the X-Box.
It'll be interesting to see if Microsoft will try to start with the X-Box as a video game console and slowly migrate the closed harware platform to be in the mainstream business PC's space. This could be their answer to the Linux threat. A closed PC hardware platform that only runs Microsoft approved software. They can use the legal precident of the video game consoles to back the actions up in court....
Think about it.
set softtabstop=4 shiftwidth=4 expandtab nocp worlddomination
I highly doubt it, there are custom modifications to the xbox geforece 3, and custom pipelines between different hardware components.
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This really opens up lots of posibilities. I think that having apache on an xbox is a great idea, but I don't think it is the best thing you could do with an xbox by a long shot. The hardware in one is more than what is in my computer now by a very wide margin. If linux was customized for it there would be endless possibilities. Everything could be compiled for pentium III's making sure that everything is making as much use of the processor as possible, put on an ISO that runs as a game to boot up linux, and off you go. Clustering would easily become a possibility. Auto detection of other xboxes on the network wouldn't be hard at all, and they could automatically turn themselves into a cluster, eighther for redundancy or speed. The difficulty I have seen is that when people are trying to install netBSD or linux on dreamcasts, everything is left up to them. If only ISO's were distributed with everything already on them, it would be so much easier. I don't know if the xbox is made to not take CDR's though. Render farms, emulation, fileservers, mp3 players dvd players, diviX players, the possibilites are vast, and all the while you are screwing microsoft because they are selling them at such a loss. Beautiful!
This Wiki Feeds You TV and Anime - vidwiki.org
Imagine if we CAN run linux on it. You think it's hard NOW to get a PC without windows, Imagine trying to get an xbox without one.
Have got patches to RH 6.2 Anaconda that permit this, right down to selecting kickstart options depending on whether console is serial terminal, or keyboard/monitor.
Will also (re)format automatically IFF an "auto-install" dongle is in place on serial port. (Don't want to inadvertantly reformat just by booting of a CD now, do we?)
Anyway, when product that uses this is released, the patches will be available with it (and possibly separately) (cause Anaconda is GPL).
You could've hired me.
256 > default Apache .conf
cat
Now, what would be a cool "game" is a Perl port with an interactive workbench. Teach them kiddies some Perl.
cat
Put this in your pipe and smoke it: http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-311875.html?t ag=rltdnws
Here's the key excerpt from that article:
Although it is removing the ten-user limit, Microsoft said last Friday that NT Server is still the best bet for running Web servers and that it will introduce a "compelling upgrade" for Workstation users that want to migrate to NT Server.
cat
This is just an effort for the geeks to buy an Xbox and get the business tax deduction on it!
to swap the proprietary USB for regular?
I know nothing about hardward hacking - but would it require getting into the firmware? sparkane
Actually, the point that has been made many times in other posts is that MS is selling the hardware _at_a_loss_ much like the other sonsole makers do with their game systems. In other words, it costs MS more to produce each X-box than they sell them for. The standard way console makers make money is throught royalties payed by the game makers for each game sold. So...if you really don't like MS then it would make more sense to promote the idea of buying lots of X-boxes and using them for some non-game related purpose. Every X-box used this way hits MS where it hurts the most, the wallet. -GameMaster
Rules of Conduct:
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Rules of Conduct:
#1 - The DM is always right.
#2 - If the DM is wrong, see rule #1
No. There's plenty of pro-Linux people at MS. Perhaps not a majority, but it's not something that's taboo to speak of in the halls.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
I'd think the easiest way of doing it (Crippling it) would be to burn the HAL of the thing onto a little epoxy covered (think no hardware haxoring) rom and bury the winsock stack in there with exclusive access to the network port. Limit incomming connections to say 8 (for multiplayer games).. or worse, let it initiate and massacre Lan-gaming oportunities, and bingo.. No-fekin-chance of a server box hack... Until someone figures out how to Haxor around it of course :)
Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
the xbox gfx hardware is just two Geforce3's, as far as I know. It's based on the NV20, and will be called the NV2a. I betcha drivers will be easier to reverse eng.
-- This sentence is false.
Mind you that the X-Box comes with a modded GeForce3 ... not some wimp-pissed-kid GF2 MX ... not gonna find that at such a low price (maybe in a year or so)
he also said it was linux that was ported to the dreamcast... last it recalled, it was NetBSD
Mooniacs for iOS and Android
p3 733 = $117.
64 MB pc100 SDRAM = $15.
DVD drive = $40.
Total:$172
Now, lets add some accessories:
10GB IDE harddrive = $63
10/100 NIC = $5
motherboard/fan/cpu combo = $173 (subtract the price of the processor above)
Mini- Mid-tower case = $8
New total:$304 for everything but the case.
No coding required, do a fresh install of your favorite (FreeBSD) Linux distro, and you're good to go for the same price... I like my way better.
Mooniacs for iOS and Android
my keyboard at my desk, i'd plan on ssh'ing into it
Mooniacs for iOS and Android
The only way to not get thier bacon fried is either pray no-one notices what a nice little server the XBox would make (fat chance), somehow cripple the HW so it can't run as a server (internal timer that powers off every X hours or so) or provide a cheap server at a similar price point (a'la WinXP Blade install).
It'll be interesting to see how they deal with this.
The Bastard.
If you don't have anything nice to say, say it often.
If you don't have anything nice to say, say it often.
- Ed the Sock
Now I feel good about buying xboxlinux.com a year ago, I knew this was going to happen :)
Hammer of Truth
Netcraft web server hardware survey, January 2002: 30% - XBox 30% - PS2 30% - GameCube 5% - Game Boy Advance 5% - x86, UltraSPARC and other obsolete platforms
well, people have always said m$ wants to break into the server market... if you can use the xbox as an apache webserver, than qualifies, i guess...
eudas
Blessed is he who expects the worst, for he shall not be disappointed.
... that the author suggested using linux on x-box is now an ex-Micro$oft employee?
If the effort expended on useless ports that no one will ever use could be combined, Linux could have the ease of use of MacOS by now.
This is ironic, since MS is so heavily trying to tout that the XBOX is purely a game machine, not a PC, not a DVD player. They've gone to great lengths to make this point. Even putting that greasy bastard Seamus on a skateboard and taking pics of him. Extreme!
These things are so packed together, they probably start resetting themeselves after a couple hours, usually at the end of the 10th level too.
No, they won't get too hot, but the question is can MS keep them cool enough without inserting a fan that sounds like a jet engine when you boot the thing up.
"And like that
They already control the consumer pc market, and have for over a decade, in case you haven't noticed.
A GeForce2 MX 32MB is only $50 on pricewatch.
Computers will stop being hard to configure, which some people mistake for powerful, and start being simple squares that you plug into the wall. Consoles, in other words.
I see this more like a change in who make the "intelligent" decisions: yesterday you had smart people and dumb computers, today we are in the middle (MCSE and Windows PCs), tomorrow we will have computer smart enough that you can be as dumb as you want and they'll run anyway.
Of course, a little "elite" of experts will be always needed, but I think that numbers will slowly shrink.
Too bad the xbox isn't actually in the shape of an X. Like the prototype indicated. So a server farm of these wouldn't be the visual spectacle the article infers.
Hey! Where is yer fancy 3D video card?
Inertia, terrible software, and marketing gusto have kept the expensive-reliable hardware guys afloat, but it won't last. I completely disagree with '[t]he days of running your company on your kids Apple IIc (or its modern day equivilant - the X-toy) are over.' You could never run a business on an IBM XT, but you can power an enterprise with a bunch of Pentiums.
Computers will stop being hard to configure, which some people mistake for powerful, and start being simple squares that you plug into the wall. Consoles, in other words.
Wonder if you could use the graphics card on the xbox for anything useful.
I've heard two answers to the "Will it have a keyboard/mouse?" queston: Yes, but it will be a proprietary keyboard, and No, we are making a game machine.
I'd have to think if they are serious about gaming, especially FPS and RTS gaming, that a keyboard/mouse setup would be mandatory, no?
GTRacer
- Glad I bought a PS2 with mostly standard USB (but I'll still buy an XBox anyway {Go Apache!})
Defending IP by destroying access to it? That makes sense, RIAA/MPAA. Go to the corner until you can play nice!
but will it support wine?
can we expect this? "linuxgames - proudly powered by by xbox.."
I doubt that there are enough people that are l33t enough for this to seriously affect Microsoft. It's not not my grandma is going to run Linux/Apache/Etc. on the X-Box; it'll be Slashdot readers and other assorted geeks-- maybe a couple thousand at most. That won't hurt MS too bad, and even if, say, 10,000 people buy an X-Box for this purpose, Microsoft's PR Department can spin it to the game developers as "We sold thousands more units than expected! You should develop for our console instead of Playstation2 or GameCube."
Today's sig brought to you by http://www.swankypimp.com
Microsoft does not appear to be implementing any software safeguards or eeproms or roms that will attempt to detect and prevent any non-Microsoft programs from executing. Or Maybe, I am wrong and their plan is to detect ip packets being routed around microsoft.com, causing the much hyped MS WinXbox kernel to launch an eMail around the default gateway pointed to microsoft.com. I don't know what they'll do to prevent the subjugation of their system. I am all talk today.
Does anyone have a URL for a page that discusses any of their software that may try to do this?
ahhhhh... haha
Please remove BOOGERS when sending me eMail. Thankyou...
Sincerely,
But I'm sure you already Gnu that.
If these things will overheat?
I know playstations get awful hot,
kind of like laptops, they aren't meant to run 24/7/365.25
I have a p75 as my server sitting under my steps in my room, it has no fans, and is cold to the touch, the heatsink is barely luke warm.
These things are so packed together, they probably start resetting themeselves after a couple hours, usually at the end of the 10th level too.
on OSOpinion.
One of the points brought up about using the XBox for apache server farms was the commercial appearance. Imagine you are walking through a potential webhosting location that you are considering to host you new online business and you see your pages being served up by XBoxes. How fast would you be out of there?
Someone doing this would be a prime candidate for both fuckedcompany.com and the top 100 dumbest dot com moments.
The USB connector is different.
Atari sued Sega a few years back and Sega paid out tens of millions over the joypad connector used on the Sega Megadrive which Atari had patented.
No doubt Microsoft will have patented the connector aswell to prevent any company producing hardware except under the strict control from Redmond.
I'm betting MS will sell a XBox keyboard that is non-standard and owned by MS sometime later.
As consoles and other 'consumer' technology gets more and more complex, software and firmware become more and more real a problem. For example, my VCR never has any logic problems, but my APEX DVD player will occasionally fail to start a next chapter, or will garble the sound and video. It's MPEG2 drivers have apparently crashed, and the machine has to be powercycled to start running again.
Being that the Xbox is going to use a Pentium 3 processor, a piece of silicon that we *know* has at least a few minor bugs, and M$ software, I think we can be assured of having at least an occasional crash. Possibly, especially under heavy load as a webserver, this will be more often than corresponding Linux or BSD crashes, making it unsuitable for use as a webserver.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
5 years ago I worked in PC World, so I got to see all the new mainstream machines as they were launched.
_ __
These were early Windows 95 days, and the machines on offer were pretty ropey. Packard Bell ruled the day, shifting their nasty ugly little boxes like hot cakes. Compaq were on the scene with freakish OS bolt ons and oddly shaped cases. The only machines of note were the Apricots - nicely designed machines of a high quality.
Then Viglen-Microsoft machines started arriving at the store. They were exquisitely finished high specced Viglen machines with top of the line Microsoft Mouse, Natural Keyboard, Sidewinder 3d Pro Joystick, Sidewinder Joypad, Altec Lansing Subwoofer and speaker system, nicely bound literature and restore CDs and a full compliment of Microsoft Games (Flight Sim, Age Of Empires et al)
I really liked them and have found Microsoft hardware (I said hardware) to be of a reasonable to high build quality. I think that the X-Box looks like being an incredible toy, and I'm looking foreward to seeing what we can get it to do...
__________________________________________
Now wash your hands.
You might've missed something here...USB standards are for PC's. The X-Box is a game console. Rinse and repeat.
*Sigh* Can you /.ers read any Microsoft related story without resorting to mindless bashing? Not that MS bashing isn't warranted at some points...but, at least try to think before you post....
http://linuxdc.sourceforge.net/
I can see being able to telnet (or, preferably, ssh) into the machine for administration, but does anyone know if you can hook a keyboard up to the X-box?
---
evil adrian
subject
One thing that people are forgeting about MS and the whole big picture of licensing - MS swallowed a bunch of developer over the past few years.
They really don't need all this money from game companies to turn a profit. They are a game company.
The thing is though MS is good at protecting their software and what not. You will probaly have to pay the WebTV section of their company just to go online, and once you do it'll check any software I bet.
Boot codes and what not are always hacked.
Get your Unix fortune now!
The real problem isn't software based. Microsoft changed the physical connector shape of their USB ports. Your mice, keyboards, etc just won't fit. Of course, you can always make an adapter but not many people would go through the trouble..
2Micsoft's principal concern is strategic, if the playstation becomes the internet appliace then it becomes a platform competitor.
3The Xbox will probably sell to retailers at about $220. That is probably enough to meet cost of manufacture. The reason Microsoft will make a net loss in the initial years is the enormous amount of advertising they plan.
All in all the X-Box is a good thing for the video games sector. The marketing tactics of Sega, Sony et. al. are more scumbagish than anything Microsoft has ever been accused of. Produce a game for Sega and they demand a royalty from you of $10 for access to their platform.
Microsoft is not playing to win here, they are playing to disrupt the industry and break an incumbent monopoly. Putting Linux on Xbox would not upset Microsoft one little bit
The server farm idea is cute but idiotic. The cost of hardware is only part of the cost of a server farm. By the time X-box comes out $300 will not be the sweat spot of price performance. A dedicated design would be much easier to install and maintain.
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
and we're 6 months into the PS2's life, and I still don't see mod chips or pirate games for that.
Then you just haven't paid much attention, I guess... I've seen mod chip ads and isoz floating around from day one of its Jap launch (well, nearly). As long as the games don't use the DVD format you should be able to get whatever game you'd like.
A World in a Grain of Sand / Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Infinity in the Palm of your Hand / And Eternity in an Hour.
Microsoft is interested in profits. Their angle on the XBox is that they will make money in the games and licensing fees, i presume.
If, after 2 months, MS finds that everyone's buying the hardware (at negative margins for MS) and not buying any software (and using Apache, nonetheless) - they'll do something to block this practice, or raise the prices to the point where this will become profitable.
the second will not happen either, as MS will be very disinclined to make inroads into the server for fear of anti-trust legislation (okay, OS, software, hardware... that'd do it...) and industry alliances with vendors who pre-package windows.
great idea, but like napster, has a critical mass beyond which it will become it's own worst enemy.
A: None. The Universe spins the bulb, and the Zen master merely stays out of the way.
The thing is more powerful than the computer I'm using right now! 733MHz PIII CPU, 64 MB RAM, not too shabby.
In any case, is the Xbox competitive for general purpose applications, be they Apache or supercomputing? I kind of doubt it. Paying $300 for a 733MHz Pentium with 64M of memory, an 8G hard drive, and almost no ports isn't all that great a deal anymore. By the time the Xbox will be widely available, it will likely be a completely uninteresting deal. In addition, the form factor may turn out to be not all that convenient for building server farms (server room space is very costly, in particular when co-locating).
The Xbox is mostly about convenience: having a stable, uniform hardware platform makes writing games easier. It is also about low cost of entry: assuming the Xbox meets a price target of $300, you can't get $300 PCs, but you will be able to get something that's twice as fast for twice the money. For server farms, aggregate performance matters, not cost of entry. Its performance and features, on the other hand, seem greatly overhyped to me.
It seems approporate to run redmondlinux on the Microsoft box doesn't it?
m.kelley
www.mkelley.net
m.kelley
life is like a freeway, if you don't look you could miss it.
Most likely the bios will only allow booting of of the cd/dvd drive, and will look for a specific pattern or something that can't be replicated on the harddrive. If that's the case, you would either have to change the bios, or burn a dvd with a lilo type program. Which is easier now? -stfrn
"It'll be like stealing candy from a baby... why, that look like a lark!" - Mr. Burns.
What if it turns out that the X-box can actually be used to play games, and moreover, what if it turns out to perform this single task well?
The Linux bible - First Commandment:
Thou shalt not defile Linux with the unholy vessel that is X-box.
-------
Open source for open minds open to new ideas for ways to close down Micros()ft.
Most game console companies sell their console at discounts, in order to have future game revenue. Now with the advent of hacks that are well publicized over the net, you can have people buy mass amounts of consoles & then use them for whatever they want.... so warning to console companies, don't sell your product below 'fair value'.
Speaking of which, would MS selling the Xbox below market value be "predatory pricing" due to their huge cash reserves?
===> An eye for an eye makes everyone blind - MG
Yeah, the hardware is pretty good. I have a Microsoft Intellimouse Explorer, and it worked really well until my girlfriend spilled some apple juice on it. Now the button response is terrible, and I don't have any way to fix it. normally I'd open up the mouse and rinse the plastic shell, but the mouse is sealed. WTF
I should start making a bunch of Linu stickers. Think of how many people will want to change the top of the box from "X" to "linuX"
Great, this whole "Let's put LINUX on everything!!!" crap is going to do nothing in this case but put more money in Microsoft's account. Sell more X-Box units. Microsoft can then say "We sold millions of X-Box units!" because they won't be able to differentiate between gamers and idiots drooling over installing Linux on them. Don't buy a fucking X-Box for linux, for fucks sake...
Interesting. So all we have to do is cut and splice some cable. That is an even easier proposition.
This is a common Microsoft tactic that is rarely successful.
Open Source engineers with enough time and motivation could easily backward engineer the bastardized MS USB protocol. A kernal hack could implement a driver to translate standardized USB communications into MS USB communications and vice versa. Having accomplished this task there would be no impediment to using mice, keyboards or even USB printers with the XBox.
Of course someone would still need to write an xbox driver for XFREE86 and Linux successful takes over the box.
now... with all the recent developments in the netbsd port to dreamcast i was thinking of doing a linux port when then the x box comes out this fall (pre-order this summer, thinking of calling it xlinux). This is completely different then the dreamcast port, which as some people have posted on slashdot seems a little well... pointless. But think about the possiblities of the xbox... where talking a 733 mhtz processor with 64 meg ram and a 8-10 gig harddrive, not to mention its specially designed video card and dvd player. We're not talking a game console here people, we're talking a computer. And at that a very cheap computer (last i heard x-box was going to be around $300, as microsoft takes a $200 hit per box that they'll write off on their taxes), so it makes alot of sense to get something useful on it (as opposed to whatever version of windows they're going to put on it... windows gc??? hell you'll probably be able to dual boot it with that harddrive...) like linux. Of course, if someone could build an xbox game player into xlinux... ;-).
can't sleep slashdot will eat me
Hey take this article and combine it with this one http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/04/08/003624 7
Wammo: XBox = Low cost radio station, music server.
It's cheaper than a NetApp device? Ya, bar the fact it doesn't do RAID, journalling, NVRAM guaranteed writes, scale up to 12 odd Terabytes, oh, heh, and the NetApp has a 400Mhz Alpha processor that's faster in most regimes than any Pentium III....
Gee, I sure want one for my storage solution.
You can _tell_ he was affiliated with Microsoft at one time or another, he's got visions of grandeur - next thing they'll be thinking Win2k is a server Enterprise OS! Oh, hang on...
-- Some dork