Slashdot Mirror
13-Year-Old Suspended For Hacking Commits Suicide
RichM writes: "The Times of Trenton (N.J.) has a story this morning about a gifted local 13-year-old who committed suicide after being suspended for 10 days from school, apparently for hacking into the school's computer system. Accounts differ, but it appears the school emphasized that what the child did was illegal, and he hung himself that afternoon, leaving a note saying he would rather die than go to jail."
District Superintendent John Fitzsimons must be the dumbest man alive. From the article; "We don't know why (he committed suicide) and we feel terrible about it," Fitzsimons said. John maybe you need to learn to read and comprehend.
I would like to point out that convicted felons can indeed restore their entire and full rights as citizens the very day they finish parole. A convicted felon can apply for his or her rights to be returned, the process does not take very long, and very few persons are denied. So you're a convicted felon? Keep your nose clean, be patient, and you can be a citizen again. Look it up in your lawbooks. =)
How does an innocent kid dying get turned into a "women's issue"? A KID DIED! Where was the invitation to quote rape statistics? Quoting rape statistics in jail, that was relevant to the kid (allegedly) being threatened with imprisonment. That was on topic. Criticizing that post because women also get raped is the kind of troll that turns men AND women away from some PACs and idealogies which claim to represent all women. /.
story
on a boy being suspended for the indirect reason of being a geek,
and that one didn't end in suicide. To turn this boy's death into
a soapbox for male bashing (funny how there's no antonym for
mysogyny) and to walk over this innocent boy's grave with your
blanket statement about lawbreakers is the worst kind of sin.
By the way, boys and men also get raped, sexually harassed, and sexually discriminated against. This includes boys and men who are NOT lawbreakers. This includes boys and men who are NOT lawbreakers but are IN prison (or reform school, etc.).
Did you mean to imply that only lawbreakers go to jail, or was that disinformation accidental because your school didn't teach about the same social injustices that my school taught? Or is not injustice unless it happens to a woman who looks and thinks like you? Innocent people go to jail too! Innocent people get raped in jail!
I'm not saying only innocent people get raped in jail or all innocent people in jail get raped. I'm saying not only lawbreakers are in jail and not only lawbreakers get raped in jail. This is about why the kid was afraid to go to jail. No one in the previous posts said to ignore the fact that innocent women also get raped. No one said it because it wasn't relevant!. The post which you trolled offered a reason for the boy being frightened by the suggestion that he may go to jail. 1 in 4 women get raped. That's a frightening stat. There's a 1 in 4 for chance that you will get raped. Do you think a 13 year old boy has a less that 1 in 4 chance of being raped in jail? Do you think he deserves to get raped for his crime? Do you think less of him because he's not a girl?
Reality check, when this boy was told he can go to jail, he probably imagined being locked up with adolescents or adults, not kids his own age. He probably imagined his chances of getting raped being a hell of a lot higher than 1 in 4. Reality check, if any of those 1 in 4 women who get raped ever exceeded the speed limit or forced their ways through intersections just as the signals changed from amber to red, she is more of a lawbreaker than this kid is. Try your post this way: "What so many women conveniently forget is that it worse to be kicked out of school, falsely imprisoned, and raped for a crime you didn't commit. Maybe we should try to think of innocent children before worrying so much about lawbreakers."
Would I be so upset over your troll if this boy didn't seem so much like I was at his age? Yes, I would be just as outraged by your post under his story and I would be and I would be just as shocked and heartbroken that his story happened at all. I was already shaken up by the last
Just so you don't accuse me of taking the rape of innocent women lightly, just a few months ago, I listened to a DA tell a friend that if she continues in her attempts to bring rape charges against her former common law partner, she will be charged under some kind of public nuisance law and her friends (that's me) will be charged for helping her. I can tell you first hand that DAs won't limit themselves to prosecuting lawbreakers, in fact some of them would rather prosecute the victim than the criminal. Is this DA a mysogynist? You wouldn't know it by looking at her!
I'm posting anonymously like you did not because I'm a coward (are you afraid of the truth?) but to leave you to guess my gender. Chances are you'll guess wrong. (Please, people, please don't post any questions about my friend's case, I won't even tell you which state. If I wanted help, I would "Ask Slashdot". We're supposed to be discussing Shinjan's story. I'm making this OT post to complain that an OT post was made under such a tragic story. Please stay on topic and honour the boy.)
Look at how jail is portrayed on TV, its a harsh brutal place where people get raped and beaten up daily. The principal threatened the child with the threat of being sent to jail. I've been talked to by my teachers, basically because i'm doing stuff they just don't understand. Why punish kids because they have a goddamn curiosity? Thats medieval thinking, and this is what happens when you try and confine people to your simple minded ideals. I doubt the kid did anything like changing grades, or malicious. People are naturally curious, but people are trying to curb this by outrageous things like the DMCA, an understanding of computers shouldn't be considered a crime. A kid gets his home busted into and his computer consficated because he wrote a program that circumvents stupid technology. A good kid, with a bright future is cut short because he was interested in how things worked. We look back on people like Galileo with awe, at how he wouldn't be silenced by the simpleminded religous zealots. He died for what he believed for, this kid died because he feared for his life.
> 10 days is a little extreme for that type of violation Depends on what kind of data he gained access to. For all we know he could have: - gained access to everyone's email - read tests - read/changed grades & scores - accessed student records - accessed school employee files - or even _changed_ student/faculty records And if the entire school district was networked, scale up the potential damage and/or invasion of privacy by a few order of magnitudes. For a website full of rabid privacy freaks, I'm suprised people are taking the kid's side. Having said all that, I'm _very_ suprised that someone considered so intelligent committed suicide. Makes me wonder if there wasn't something more going on. *shrug*
I have been (roughly speaking) in his position, and the one thing that saved me from his fate was someone who reminded me that there were other people like me who could help me through the rough times.
I mean, really. The kid was just as curious as anyone else his age, he went where he didn't belong, and got busted. That happens to a lot of people, I think. But when that kid feels like there's nothing left for him in this world, something is wrong.
This has nothing to do with a jail sentence. Depression amongst our youth is a very serious problem that is regularly ignored by parents and teachers. Knee-jerk accusations of computer games, music, drugs, and (yes) threatened jail sentences obscure the issue. People do not kill themselves because of an outer influence, they kill themselves because they can't handle the pain inside. We should supporting children, teaching them coping mechanisms, working on fixing the cause rather than blaming the symptoms.
When they finally learned that the injuries were done by a local school bully (there were witnesses)... THE SCHOOL ABANDONED ALL INTEREST IN THE STUDENT'S INJURIES!
Someone explain to be why schools are ready to send armed guards (like Elian Gonzales) to sieze battered kids from abusive parents yet have no problem with kids abusing and beating up other students?
So you forgot you were reading /. with the Oog cookie set, eh?
When I was in primary school, I run in problems with teachers on a regular basis, although I was by no mean a nasty kid. The problem was simple: some of the teachers came completely unprepared, other were simply incompetent, yet third simply had no interest in job they were doing. As a result, I was bored to death during classes, and started causing "problems". Some of these "problems" involved:
I guess you can imagine other types of conflicts along these lines... Mediocre teachers did what the medicrits all over the world always do, and tried to blame the kid for their failures. First they "found out" that I'm a halfwitt, and should be moved to "special school". Schools "psyhologist" agreed with this idea, but my mother (who happens to be a medical doctor) didn't, so she took me to children psyhologist. I solved all of the tests they could find in record time and asked for more, so that problem was solved.
There we were back in school (for some reason, schools psyhologist didn't cross my path for rest of the schooling anymore), it's difficult to argue with a letter from central children hospital saying "extraordinary inteligent", but this didn't stop few extremely stupid teachers from summiting my parents and bothering them with details of how "nasty" I was and such. After some time I learned that having an interesting teacher is a rare privilege, and learned how to ignore the boring ones while concentrating on other activities. By the time I went to secondary school, I was so well trained that I only got in conflict with chemistry teacher once-or-twice during four years i spent there. (OK, being in a "good" school helped)
I was lucky: My parents fully understood a problem, there were several inteligent teachers in the school who learned how to keep me buisy, and last but not the least important, my parents inscribed me on all kinds of out-of-school activities. Were it not for these three factors, I would have probably ended up doing something illegal myself: not out of any pressing need, or mischief, but simply because I would have been bored to death.
My advice to parents: don't let idiots ruin your kids life. Always double-check what teachers are telling you, especially in case one teacher complains a lot, while another one seams to be completely at ease with your kid. And, first thing to check in case you have a "problem kid" is how inteligent it is (don't trust your school authorities on that, search for independent expertise). If it turns out to be extremely inteligent, all you have to do is find out a way to keep it buisy. Punishments and such can only make matter worse.
I can think of at least one!
I first thought this was a joke but then realized this kid somehow figured it out in his head that hacking into a computer would set the government on his trail and sentence him to prison, a perception generated by many a web site news agency. What else does a 13 year old have to go on but what he reads on the internet?
When you read article after article day after day about the government trying to rule the world by squashing computer hackers into little bits, it raises a generation of kids who can think of nothing but how computer hacking is everything the universe is made of and when you're caught hacking into a school computer you've commited a crime against the government worse than murder, the government is going to send the armed forces after you, imprison you for life, and castrate your grandkids, when all you've done is hack into a computer.
Some people don't know when to quit hyping conspiracies and stop sending these kids home with nightmares for the rest of their lives. Thank God the media hasn't picked up burning toast as the next government conspiracy.
Is it just me or are we seeing a serious loss of perspective here?
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What if Microsoft used the suicide of a Linux user to advance the view that Linux was bad? Well the same thing is happening here. Anyone who kills themselves has serious problems, and the implication that just because a kid gets suspended from school, and commits suicide, means that the school killed him, is oppertunism at its worst. If you think that people should concentrate more on security, than on punishing people who break security, then so-be-it. But don't use the death of a clearly disturbed child to advance your view point.
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Hopefully people will see both sides of this issue; more than one party may be to blame.
It is disturbing that this kid may become viewed as a martyr among certain computer geeks. Here on slashdot it is not uncommon for readers to be all too quick in chastising "the system" for their actions in matters which affect geeks. If he did in fact hack maliciously then I have little sympathy for him receiving a fair punishment.
At the same time the boy may have been treated improperly by the school board. I have been involved in situations involving school administrators acting rash and grossly misunderstanding the situation. If they behaved too harshly then the school should take some blame for this incident.
Perhaps the boy had psychological problems or the school board had it in for him, maybe both. I'm sure there are many side to this issue (like any other) and I just hope people will remember to take everything into account before passing judgement on any one party.
Religions are by their very nature a screwed value system. They demand that you believe things which are neither provable nor logical, and worse than that, demand that you live your life by those non-ratifiable beliefs.
People should stop pointing the finger at the school administration (which thankfully in the US, unlike here in the UK, is refreshingly religion-free), and instead have a good look at parents. Hindu, Christian, Islam or Pagan, it's about time we stamped out this nonsense which is ruining people's lives.
There was a time when the world was ruled by religion- it was called the Dark Ages.
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Andrew Oakley - www.aoakley.com
It may be many bad things, but definitely not theft nor burglary.
Theft is the intention to permanently deprive someone of physical property. It does not apply to IP such as grades or computer security.
Burglary is theft plus breaking a physical barrier (eg. picking a lock, smashing a window). Again it does not apply to IP such as grades or computer security.
Us spods need to fight this whole concept of "software theft". Theft permanently deprives someone of something tangible. Software is not tangible, and copying it does not deprive anyone of the original. Grades are not tangible either, and changing his own or others who have paid/asked him does not deprive anyone else of theirs.
an insult to academic integrity
Starting with the dictionary... :-)
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Andrew Oakley - www.aoakley.com
We're definitely not getting the whole story here. Something else happened or was going on, and that something is most probably the root cause of what happened.
According to the mother, he left a note, saying he'd rather be dead than go to jail. I'm inclined to believe this part of the story, as it seems something that a 13 year old kid would write, and I don't see why the mother would falsify it.
What's also pretty much unquestioned is that the parents WANT to blame someone. They WANT to be able to vent their pain at something/someone, and the school is a VERY convenient target.
Now...we have a kid, who "hacked" a school computer ("hacked" being defined by the tight-lipped school district, who doesn't say exactly what the kid did, or exactly how severe the infringement was), and was given a 10 day out-of-school suspension (a VERY serious punishment - in my district, even excessively violent kids who physically wounded shool staff were at MAXIMUM given 5 days (AKA: one school week) suspension out-of-school). We have no idea what the crime was, exactly, or why the school district thought it necessary to administer such a severe punishment.
We also know (from the kid's note) that SOMEHOW he got an inkling that he WAS going to go to jail for what he did. This is a bright kid. Gifted both physically and mentally. Beginning puberty (which means that what's going on in his head probably doesn't quite add up - hormones are tricky things) - and most probably very curious. A kid like that isn't going to take "If you were an adult, this would be considered a crime, and could possibly carry some jail time" as "YOU ARE GOING TO JAIL". It's going to take something a bit more blunt to put that kind of idea in the kids head. I'm inclined to think someone spoke too harshly, or used an indirect threat that got taken out of context in the kid's mind, in combination with the severity of his punishment.
Most probably that comment came from whomever handed down the punishment to the kid. (I'm assuming the principal of the school)
Is he directly to blame for the kid's death? Absolutely not. Did he contribute to it? I'm inclined to say yes.
What we don't know is if there were other factors that may have contributed to this. Things like how the kid's social life at school was - was he bullied? Hated by his peers? (or *thought* his peers hated him) Any number of things could have been going on that may have contributed in part to this.
While I feel it's wrong to blame the school exclusively for the suicide, I *do* agree that there is a case for partial blame there.
The situation most probably could have been handled much more delicately. A *short* suspension, followed by possibly giving the kid an active project with the computer network could have been a good start.
I feel for the parents and their immense loss. There's no way that anyone can know their loss without going through it as well.
I have a friend, one who rings late at night, is regularly depressed, and more than just occasionally talks about ending it all. I make time for her, because otherwise, she'll just be another statistic before the year's out.
There's no reason to do take your own life. If you're in the same boat, get some help now. There are many anonymous forms of help, so no one needs to know. But it's so much better if you can ask your friends and family for help. If they had an ounce of humanity in them, like me, they'll take the calls at 3 am.
It's never too late to ask for help. The numbers for places like LifeLine (it's a secular suicide prevention line) are found in your phone books.
Yellow Ribbon Suicide Prevention Program
Andrew van der Stock
You have to understand that this was a 13 year old kid and that he's going to take this kind of shit seriously because you can't possibly expect a child to have the perspective on this at all. Especially if he had never been in trouble (trouble being defined as having been sent to the principal's office and suspended) before.
When you talk to a 13 year old child, you are not dealing with an adult. Yes, they need to learn that what they did was wrong, but you don't throw something like fscking JAIL TIME in their face. That's just as tasteless as telling a 4-year old that if he doesn't behave you'll lock him in the closet with the boogie man. If you can't find a better way to reinforce the severity of the offense than to draw on the fear of an adult punishment, then chances are high that you don't understand kids... let alone have even a pale image of a clue as to what kind of damage you might be doing.
Is the principal directly to blame for the kid killing himself? No. But he certainly helped set up the stage.
I just hope this dork feels as sick now as he felt self-righteous when he watched the terror creep across the kid's face when he told him he "could" be going jail. Although the principal didn't kill him, he's got bad kharma like Shawn Kemp's got child support payments. When he lies awake at night at 3am staring at the ceiling, I hope he begins to just get an inkling of what his role was.
And I hope it's enough to convince to get the hell out of middle school education and into a situation where he can ego trip on pushing around people his own size.
I genuinely consider this tragic, but I think the question needs to be asked:
Why is it that when a 13-year-old kid cracks your network he's called a script kiddie, but when he cracks someone else's and commits suicide, he's called gifted? I think if he was as smart as the article made him sound, he would not have committed suicide.
That he holds a black belt in TaekwonDo and would still take his own life is a little surprising to me, as well. I'm a TKD practitioner, and our tenets are courtesy, integrity, perseverance, self-control, and indomitable spirit. Someone with a black belt is expected not just to memorize these tenets, but follow them as a way of life. Committing suicide flies in the face of all these tenets.
Surely an intelligent 13-year-old would have realized he wouldn't be jailed for his offenses, too.
I suppose these questions are all moot. The situation is as disturbing as it is curious. I get the feeling, though, that maybe something was left out in the article. Things just don't seem to add up.
Jason.
While this sounds like some teen angst joke, it ain't. While 13 year olds are completely capable of reason, many of them are so caught up in their emotional travails (something that makes it much easier for adults to manipulate them).
It's like a principle of mine, years and years ago. He'd do everything in his power to exaggerate the seriousness of an offense, mess with a kid's emotions. Then this jackass would call up their parents and make these kids give sobbing confessions about the petty, inane, totally irrelevant things their done "wrong".
And, as was pointed out, the way the media plays on the issues of violence and other social factors in the prison environment, is it any wonder than some kid with a lot of smarts, but very little in the way of LIFE EXPERIENCE would be willing to DIE to avoid that?
Note: I'm not saying I agree with the kid's conclusions. I'm just saying I can understand how he arrived at them.
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Chas - The one, the only.
THANK GOD!!!
Why are people martyring this kid? he checked it in, he gave up. Listen I know there are a lot of kids on this site, and a lot of you think the world is stacked against you. No matter how shitty you feel, and how unfair the world seems at the time, killing yourself is ALWAYS the wrong answer. It gets nothing done, you are dead. If you feel like taking your, or someone elses, life talk to someone, if you think you can't talk to your parents or teachers, call a hotline, check yourself into a hospital, email me, ANYTHING but killing yourself. Remember when you are dead, there will be no more fun times for you, your family will never be the same. You never get what you want when you are dead.
I'm no expert in the area, but if I'm not mistaken any decent private school will have at least that many certification requirements for two reasons:
AFAIK, certification isn't really that bad: if teaching really interests you, then there should be no question that it's worth it.
My $.02,
-"Zow"
I'll one up you there (nothing personal) - It was describing me perfectly up to reform school - hair & all. In fact, the other kids in High School called me Screech to tease me. Fortunately I found my revenge in sucess and not suicide: instead of reform school I went to college and these days I'm pulling an impressive salary doing computer security work for the government while working on my Ph.D.
Oh - and the hair grew out into a chic magnet in college (then I cut it off about a month after my wedding).
-"Zow"
Senior Year of high school. I was a honor student who was involved with the Academic Decathalon, a football player, on the track team, the editor of the school's TV news program and founding officer of the Computer Club.
We have two parking lots in our school. One close to the school (got to get there early) and one further away. I ALWAYS park at the close parking lot (because I always got to school early to hang with my friends, play magic and bull shit about computers). However, I went to a Pantera concert the night before, got in later than usual and parked in the far away parking lot.
Well, wouldn't you know it, that was they day they decided to let drug-sniffing dogs scour the parking lot. However, they only did the far away praking lot (I guess they figured drug users don't get to school early). I was called out of class in the morning and asked to report to my car. I had a pretty decent idea of why they might be interested in my car.
I get there and I'm asked to consent to a search and am told that if I don't consent they'll get a search warrant. I consent. I'm asked to unlock the car so a plain-clothes policewoman can search my car. Knowing that I had a bag of weed and a small bong under the driver's seat, I open the passanger-side door. The polie officer searchs the car including under every seat except the driver seat. She finds a stem, two seeds and a mostly burnt paper with resin on it. I am told to wait in the principals office.
I wait outside her office for 4 hours, in plain view of everyone walking by in between classes. Fun, I tell you. I finally get into the office and I am told that they found drugs in my car and that the school is a zero-tolerance school and the evidence will be turned over to the police for prosecution. I was also on indenfinte suspension from that moment. My parents were called and told the same. I was sent home. My parents yelled and screamed at me for a half hour or so and then sent me to my room (or I left, I don't remember). At this time I typed a letter on my Amiga explaining the reasons that it is fucked up that I would every have to go to jail. I said I didn't want to go to jail and it would be better if I were dead. I then swallowed three 30 count bottles of Tylenol PM (painkiller + sleep pill) and a bottle of something else.
I ate dinner with my parents. I had to go to the Senior Musical practice that night. I tried to get out of it but they insisted. I felt pretty drunk by the time I arrived. I fell alseep in the seats of the theatre before practice. Practice had started and at somepoint a teacher woke me up and said I didn't look to good. I said I didn't feel to good and thought I should go home. I remember vomiting outside the school.
I don't remember this part but was filled in on it later. I went to the school parking lot and fell asleep next to a light pole. Someone in my class was driving by, saw and recognized me. he drove up and got me into the car. He knew where I lived (I lived a mile away from the school) or I told him, but he got my home and helped me inside. I went to sleep on the living room couch.
I remember this part. My parents were away but they came back soon after. They asked what I was doing home early from practice. From this point on, I spoke completely in non-sensical sentences. I knew what I was saying didn't make a lick of sense (I was speaking stream-of-conscious annd my conscious was really fucked up) but I was still trying to act "normal." It was a losing battle. My parent's were convinced I was on some "heavy drugs" because I was, after all a "drug user." I had only smoked pot previosuly (ok, ok, I dropped acid a couple times too). I was sent to me room.
All I wanted to do was sleep. My mother came back up to my room and started asking "what did you take?" "Did you take anything at the concert?" She was convinced I had taken something at the concert and was having a flashback or it took a while to hit (24 hours!). To get her to shut up so I could get back to sleep, I told her that I took all of those pills (pointing to 4 empty bottles of pills).
That was a bad idea! She made me get up and go to the hospital! It was totally crowded, but she just went to the reg desk and slapped down 4 empty bottles of pills and said "he took those." I was brought back immediately.
I started vomiting everywhere, including all over a nurse (sorry!). They made me drink charcoal and pushed a tube up my nose and gave me IV. Since, by this time, it had been proably 3 or 4 hours since I took the pills, I ingested alot of it and there wasn't a whole lot they could except to put hook me up to all the monitors (critical condition!) They told my parents that there is a good chance I would die.
Well, luckily I didn't. I was released the next day. My kidneys went into shock and I had to take some medication for that.
So, I had a meeting with the principal and some pyschs the next Tuesday. I think they found out about the suicide on Monday. When I came in, I was now told that I would not be suspended or expelled, the police would not be involved and I would have to do is go to forced Psych sessions and "group therapy."
The only thing good about the Psych sessions was the Psych liked to play Civilization, so we spent the whole time exchanging stratagies. Group Therapy was weird. Those were people who did some hardcore shit.
Everyone except for one girl and one guy who they found an oz+ of weed had no disciplanory action taken against them. Too this day, I'm convinced it's because of my attempted suicide. I guess they didn't want one of their best students to have killed themselves over a few branches and seeds found in their car.
In the end, the suicide was one of the best things I ever did. I began a 100% turn around on my personality. I used to be a depressed and loathsome individual. I did alot of soul-searching and becamse much happier and certainly no longer suicidal. I finished highschool, finished college, and now work as an electrical engineer.
What greater good is being fullfilled if I were to have been expelled or gone to jail because I smoked pot? My being caught didn't cause me to stop either. Though I am not currently smoking right now, I smoked on and off all through college (only stopping 3 months before internships for drug tests).
Anyway, same story, different law.
Oh yeah, I had hacked into the dstrict computer shortly after that. But that was only because the Psych's office had the phone number and his username to the district computer in his office. My friend guessed his password, it was money! (Thanks Jim!)
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That's not what I meant.
got more of a reaction than he bargained for.
The bully must have leaned too hard, built a heavy (big) house of cards on this kid's imagination and had him convinced he was ruined and had brought shame on his family.
Unlike a American tough who would have told him to use the guilt trip ticket as a suppository, the kid, a respectful caring and curious Indian, used the ticket on a one way trip.
Somebody needs to find a new career before he fucks up again. Maybe as a prison gard?
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
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You know, I was smart and got shit on for it, too.
But what I did *NOT* do is go deliberately try to make myself a target, then bitch about being a target.
If you know folks want to hate you, and you respond by trying to look like something you know they'll fear, then you're committing the same idiocy as someone who walks into a synagogue wearing a Nazi uniform.
If you want someone to stop hating you because you're different, you don't achieve this by accentuating your differences; you achieve it by showing them what you have in common.
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2) because she was already planning my submission of the hours video taping as hours of community service when we were still in that guy's office. She's pretty crafty.
Bullshit. This is totally an adolescent fantasy.
But when something broke, someone had to be the fall guy. Guess who got that honor...
If you didn't know what you were doing, as you've admitted, how do you be so sure that you weren't the ones who caused the problems in the first place? This is just another teenage oppression fantasy. You poor child. You've had such hard life. Here's my pity.
Normally I wouldn't waste my time on people like yourself, but this post hit a nerve.
It hit a nerve because you and I both know that I was dead on correct. If I were wrong, you could ignore it. It stings because you know I called your bluff, and now you're back-peddling, making up more BS about your mom coming to your defense, and how she planned all along to bill the school for your unjust punishment. Take a step back and listen to your story from our point of view. It sounds like total bullshit, like something a little kid would make up when he was caught in a lie.
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
Funny... my parents, knowing that suspension from school is the root of all the troubles in this world, just made sure I didn't do something to get myself suspended.
I concur. Too many people on this board just pipe right up and say it was the schools fault. The relationship he had with his parents goes far and beyond any single punishment that principal could dish out. If he killed himself out of fear of a jail sentence, well, that says a lot more about his relations with his folks than it does about the school. There was some seriously screwed up values in that kid's head. He didn't learn that from school, that's for sure.
The people that raise you have more influence on your values than all of the other people you'll ever meet in your life as you're growing up.
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
It's not when "someone" hacks into a computer, it's when a kid cracks into a computer. Immaturity leads to curiosity which leads to cracking.
I don't recall seeing people justifying malicious cracks by adults with the intent to deceive or steal. This kid was 13.
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You take take your rules and shove them up your ass if it results in a kid killing himself.
End of story.
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Having known someone relatively well before he checked out, I can say that you don't really know why people do it. You think you do, and people go on and on about why he/she did it. Others come in from afar and get passionate about why it happened and muddy the waters and raise tensions. In the end, after the dust has settled,passion has cooled, and we have had some time to adjust to the loss, we find out we really still don't know why they did it. The sad part is that teenagers frequently don't know what they want to wear tomorrow, let alone whether or not they want to stay and make a go of it. Long before they know what the options for life are they opt out with incomplete data.
How can you write gold code in this level if you still don't know many of the system calls yet?
You must be the change you wish to see in the world - Ghandi
would you say the same thing about the contractor (or whomever)? They should have known to use unbreakable glass because it is clear that a kid would break it with a brick and commit suicide after he was suspended for it. Perhaps the SCHOOL (not to be confused with system) administrators are to blame for not being reasonable, though there aren't enough details to come to that conclusion. But even if that were the case, it's totally unreasonable to expect them to know what would happen.
In the absence of any better suggestion, that was the most plausible theory I was able to formulate. And in some sense I find it more disturbing than the prospect that he was driven to despair.
proof, n. A demonstration that a conclusion is implied by certain premises and axioms.
Having once been a (Indian) kid dragged to the principal's office for hacking back in early high school (slithered out of a three day suspension by offering advise on how to beef up their network security to keep the malicous ones out), I can sympathize with the overwhelming weight that comes crashing down on your shoulders when the "heat" decides to grill you under the hot lights. It would be foolish for me to claim that I know what went through this young man's mind, but clearly he must have deemed the fallout from his actions too severe to overcome. Being a bright young man with high post-secondary aspirations, no doubt he perceived the scar of a ten day suspension on his record -- much like a prison record -- as something that might hold him back from getting where he wants to go in life. I think back (was it that long ago?), and don't recall suicide crossing my mind, but I can definitely see where such thoughts might have started.
It's sad. It's painful to hear about, especially within a community of other hacker types. I'm sure this story hits home for more than just me. However, I think it's important to realize that none of us are going to be able to crawl into the mind of this poor soul, and as such we're stuck with passing judgements with a VERY incomplete story. My condolences to the family.
--- [DrPsycho] Coping with reality since 1975.
-DrPsycho - Coping with reality since 1975
Just to let you all know, last year I was assigned by the school district to "break" into the SASI database and find out as many of the holes as I could. The way SASI is generally run is there are shared read/write directories on an NT server which can be accessed after logging on at a certain security level. Depending on the system, this can be done solely on the client side... (example: on the windows login screen, loggin in with a teacher loggin name, hitting ok with out a password entered, and when it asks for the correct password, pressing cancel) Once you gain rights to access those shared folders, all you have to do is open the files in Excel, and although generally cryptic, you can eventually find out everything about a student. There are much worse things that are stored within the SASI db, including police records, and even complete health records of all students and all teachers. The authors of the SASI program have been notified repeatedly by the techs in our district, but no patch to encrypt or hide this data has been released. Chances are, he gained access in a very simplistic way, and found some files which have large liability issues, and was therefor suspended.
Another time he left a box which had a ticking sound in it. The principal ended up rushing the thing into the middle of the football field thinking it was a bomb. The person saying this was laughing about it
This remids me of something that happened when I was in highschool, prolly around '95 or so...
Someone in the library typed "THIS COMPUTER HAS A BOMB IN IT" at the C:\ prompt, and then left the machine.
Me and a friend had walked by the machine, seen the message, and didn't really think much of it.
Until they evacuated the library.
So, by now, me and my friend[1] are ROFL at the principal, vice principal, and librarians milling about trying to decide what they were gonna do.
So, naturally, we get noticed, and questioned.
They think we're psychos or something, laughing about a bomb planted in the computer.
After explaining that we'd seen the message, we didn't do it, how to get rid of it ("cls"), and that there was NO THREAT, they let us go with a stern warning [2].
And then re-opened the library.
I think the SA was out of town so there was
nobody to explain to the utterly clueless admins that it was just a DOS prompt...
Nobody, that is, aside from the students.
Funniest thing is that by my senior year I was prolly the most trusted[3] student in the school...
Even was given r00t on the Netware servers at one point...
C-X C-S
[1] Also nerdy...fuck, we were in the library after lunch, is there really any question?
[2] Good thing this was pre-columbine. They prolly woulda had us arrested. Especially considering this was in Littleton, about five miles from columbine.
[3] In a network security sense, anyway...
So schools should consider not suspending rule-breakers because it might hurt the kids self-esteem? If a 13-year old is so mentally unstable that he kills himself over a suspension, it's probably best to keep him out of school and get him to a psychologist.
It's time to quit coddling kids like this. We already have enough problems from protecting kids egos at the cost of discipline as it is: not holding back failing kids anymore and letting them go on to the next grade; giving trophies to anyone who competes, instead of anything special for the actual winners; constructive math bullshit where if a student "discovers" that 2 + 4 = 7, the teachers won't come out and tell the kid that the answer is wrong, etc. Of course, the people who do the coddling never stop to think that if you never teach a kid how to deal with adversity, then the first time he faces it, even if it's something as minor as a suspension (I was suspended three times in high school), he might just melt down and kill himself. Wonderful work, guys.
Cheers,
Amen. It's times like this that you remember that ideology's never as important as the individual. My younger brother committed suicide just last December. Bright boy, but was hiding problems with depression. The only commonality I can see between my brother's case and Shinjan's is that they both spent, in their parents' eyes, way too much time on the computer. My condolences to Shinjan's family, and the staff and students of the school this fellow attended. This kind of thing's never easy. We should be offering our support to their community, instead of judging him and his peers. (That having been said, I do believe that his parents have a right to know what the infractions were. The least the school could do is that. His parents need to grasp onto these things in order to heal, and accept.) James
I've seen this pattern over and over. It exists from grade schools to (to a lesser degree) universities. And students aren't always the victims, either. When I was in high school, two of the years there we had an excellent principal who got along well with the students. The school board canned him mostly because he didn't do enough suspending of students (he tried more to work out problems).
School administrators also tend to be ignorant of understanding the facts. I once was brought to a disciplinary hearing, and even found out they had already decided I was guilty. I was accused of breaking into the school's IBM mainframe because I happened to have in my file area copies of internal system files that didn't have public access. I told them I had bought them from IBM directly. Their response was that they had specifically made an agreement with the IBM office that they worked with not to sell the system to any students (I never verified that this was true or if it was even legal). But my receipt was from an IBM office in a different state, which I happened to reside in. At least they knew I won that round (and I won then next 2, but that's for future stories).
The fundamental problem is that among adults who like to be in a position of control over other people (that describes a lot of people) there are some who find they can best satisfy their need for control by controlling those who are less able to fight back, such as children. While I still believe the majority of teachers, and quite a lot of administrators really are there because they genuinely want to help provide a good educational experience, I do see time and time again cases where administrators are screwing students over with a rigged "judicial" process and very limited means for review or appeal. Mere accusal in many cases is all that it takes. And there is a pattern to those that is very top heavy in the school systems, particularly in high schools. Too bad the schools can't pay decent salaries and attract more decent people.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
And this shit happens, too (in case you haven't been reading the news the past several years).
Part of the problem is that we (schools and parents) often do nothing at all for the incremental problems kids get into, then suddenly lash out when it "goes too far". Then the kid is surprised because he only pushed the envelope a tad bit further in his mind.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
I don't mean to offend anyone when I say this, but how many competent IT people are going to be working for a public school salary?
/. for many, many expressions of that sentiment.
I'm not crying insult, but that question begs another:
"I don't mean to offend anyone when I say this, but how many competent teachers are going to be working for a public school salary?"
Many people do many things that AREN'T entirely motivated by the size of their paycheck. Look at any of the MS vs. Linux stories here on
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"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Wow, look at the misunderstanding on this one (vague) sentance...
If the "computer people" are in drugs, or guns, or whatever, yeah, treat them the same as everyone else. But when they treat someone who sends a big email the same as a kid with a gun, there's something wrong.
And why the hell can't they get the advice of someone who knows something (there are probably 10 other students readily available, for one thing), rather than just making assumptions when they don't understand the computers? Not that that always helps, i once drew the attention of the campus network security bastard, who decided to delay reinstating my network access for an extra week because he didn't like the tone of my voice when i called him about it (after he didn't follow the written notification policy in the first place, but that's another story).
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perl -e'$_=shift;die eval' '"$^X $0\047\$_=shift;die eval\047 \047$_\047"' at -e line 1.
So sad that this response is a common one. People who think that teaching discipline and responsibility means being harsh and "tough on crime" are wrong... I think they really need to think it through a little more. It's just too pat and easy to claim that more punishment is needed, especially when it's other people who get the prescription.
Imprisonment is a horrible punishment. If you've never been to jail before (even for a day) you really can't imagine how it feels. It's not just depressing; it creates despair and despondence. The prospect of spending time in jail is terrifying, and for a 13-year-old it's simply ridiculous.
The schools obviously hadn't communicated the entire sitation to the parents, which is classic in our current public education system. The public educators want to parent your children your place. That they fscked it up in this case is the least surprising part of this story.
The right thing to do in all cases of misbehavior is to teach the criminal to respect the consequences of his actions. That respect can only be taught by forcing the subject to repay the damaged party. If the school suffered from his intrusion he should have been made to make restitution. Simply threatening him and leaving him no ability to "make it right" and recover his good standing was exactly the *wrong* way to discipline a child. There is no such thing as a "debt to society"; the child should have been faced by the damaged party and asked to apologize and given the opportunity to make restitution.
Sadly it's probably the most common method of "parenting" used by schools and prosecutors. After all, it's not *their* kid... why should they demonstrate care for his well-being? Sensitivity for his age? Credit him for being a hard worker and a fast learner? Those are for Real Parents, after all... bureaucrats couldn't care less.
You're absolutely right that coddling takes place, and that it prevents a productive work ethic. But you should hesitate to replace coddling with an equally-destructive policy of nasty threats and shaking fists. Are you a father? I'd think that any father could understand this.
Don't try that "protecting the children" shit you people use to keep the tits and bad words off my TV. --Seanbaby
Then, surely, you, by failing to take action, are in some way, if only slightly, 'profitting' from this action (in that your time, which you could spend relaxing/earning money/having fun/etc., which is arguably a profit of some sort on your part), and thereby profiting from harm caused.
Does this mean that you consider it ethical to profit from the suffering of others?
James F.
Maybe those of us with the experiance should offer to do some pro-bono work for those schools (or other non-profit/low-profit orginizations) that could use our expertise?
Lots of other "professional" jobs have this sort of a requirement as part of their membership, or at least encourage it.
I'm not saying that this would solve the problem, but perhaps it could help.
This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
I am hesitant to assess blame in situations like this. I am sure there will be posts here placing the blame on:
Maybe all of the above played a part, who knows. It seems to me that Shinjan became a young kid who lost his sense of perspective about what is important in life. I don't expect 13 year old kids to have much perspective, but I would hope that every child has somebody in their life that would instill in them an *unconditional* sense of self worth.
The last sentence used to sound like pop psychology drivel to me, until a friend ended up in the same situation. Now I feel lucky because I don't take that kind of thing for granted anymore.
"When one seeks answers when none
exist, it's understandable to extend blame,"
Fitzsimons said.
Where was this guy after the columbine shootings? How come we didn't hear opinions like this from school administrators when it was video games, music, movies, the internet, etc. that so many less intelligent but very loud people were looking to blame?
This kid killing himself sounds to me like a case of terminal stupidity. Either that or he was sheltered by his family and therefore unaware of how things actually work here in America, even though he was born here. I've seen that kind of thing myself in people whose parents are from cultures that are vastly different from ours. The parents try to raise the kid as if they're still living in Bangladesh, which is a mistake. Its amazing just how effective parents can be at information control when they're really committed to it. Holy roller christian types are much the same, the kids don't grow up and get a clue about how things really are until long after they've left home. Some never get a clue and go on to do the same things to their kids.
So here you've got a kid who is either not too bright, or completely clueless and thought he was going to end up in a cell with Bubba. So far the evidence points to the latter, in which case I blame mom and dad for not raising him to be more street-smart.
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
They SUSPENDED him! They didn't have him arrested, beaten with a stick, or even expel him from school. They didn't do anything that hasn't been done to just about every kid with even a millimeter wide streak of rebellion in him.
In other words the school didn't do anything wrong. If the kid is such a mental case that he off's himself over a two week suspension then maybe he was a "special needs" kid in need of special psychotherapy.
Lee Reynolds
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
Want to know more about these kinds of places?
m
http://www.teenliberty.org/An_American_GULAG.ht
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
No, you've missed what is probably the most important reason: the administrations believe, rightly or wrongly, that "zero tolerance" policies which allow no discretion will insulate the district from lawsuits which allege discriminatory enforcement.
I think this is a red herring. For one thing, zero tolerance policies create the inevitable temptation to treat some people who are valued to highly with the full severity we envision for less important malefactors. Some pigs are always more equal than others.
You're the first person I've actually heard pitching zero tolerance because it insulates people from lawsuits. Leaving aside that fact that is not true, it is also true that non-zero-tolerance policies can be demonstrably fair. If that were so compelling an argument, zero tolerance would be applied to everything from cutting class to smoking in the lav.
Perhaps if you have heard others arguing this way, then there is an element of truth to what you say. From what I can see, zero tolerance as a strategy comes up when somebody feels the need to show they are doing something but can't think of anything better. Better to be hard working but ineffective when it comes to job review time than lazy and ineffective.
Ask yourself -- is what people mean when they say "zero tolerance" usually consistent with things like "due process"? or "thoughtful response"? Of course not, because what zero tolerance means is not it's literal sense of "every infraction will have consequences" -- which is perfectly compatible with a sane and measured response. What it really means is that every infraction will be met with action more notable for its conspicuous vigor rather than its effectiveness or fairness.
In fact, if you are truly incompetent, throwing some innocent or relatively harmless people to the wolves is a sign that you at least mean business (see -- war on drugs).
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Even if they believe it will lead to the same end?
From the article:
But district Superintendent John Fitzsimons said school officials followed disciplinary policies in this case, and although teachers and administrators are grieving the loss, they aren't responsible.
So, it appears your position is the same as the school superintendent's. While I agree that teachers and officials cannot be held as primarily responsible for this child's death, I do think that they partially responsible. Having a "zero tolerance policy" doesn't absolve people of the consequences of their actions.
Zero tolerance policies exist so that people don't have to excercise judgement. Think of all the questions that zero policy sweeps under the rug:
Excercising this form of judgement is the moral responsiblity of every person who is in a position of power of another.
"Zero tolerance" -- on computer cracking, drugs or whatever other issue -- is the preferred policy of people who don't want to think about an issue or who are uncomfortable with the messy world of real people with real problems. It's no wonder that schools systems take this position on cracking, given their usual lack of comptuer sophistication. It's easier to wish it away under "zero tolerance" than to come to grips with it.
So -- to what degree are the officials and teachers responsible? There are degerees of culpability. They are certainly not as responsible as if they handed a loaded gun to a suicidal teenager. But if indeed the policy in indeed "zero tolerance", then the policy setters will have mandated that the people who ought to have known Shinjan best, the circumstances of his infraction, his potential reaction and the dangers involved, these people are not allowed the time or scope to use their judgement to find an appropriate form of discipline. Depending on the policy, they might not have had the leeway to mitigate the results of their actions, say by bringing the parents in for a conference first -- even though by bringing the parents in they would have been able to enlist them in changing his future behavior. The only reason I can think of for sending a child of this age home without this kind of consideration is if he presented an immediate danger to other people.
For what earthly reason would a policy exists that ties the hands of people know know the particiants and situation best and prevent them from taking the most effective action at their disposal? There's only one reason ever for "zero tolerance" policies: because it is administratively easier for the policy setters.
Therefore I believe the policy setters bear a grave moral responsibility in this matter, one which would well justify their resignation or removal. The people who enforced this policy may or may not bear some responsibility -- it depends on the circumstances. If they routinely mitigate the official policy with their personal judgement, and in this case it simply went awry -- well nobody's judgement is perfect and I feel sorry for them. If they slavishly followed a bad and immoral policy because it was easier for them, then they are responsible too.
I know this sounds harsh, especially since I am advocating a humane attitude towards people who have done wrong. But, I think that you can advocate humane and just treatment of offenders without erasing all personal responsibility. It's the people who can't conceive of a middle ground where there is both justice and mercy that advocate either zero tolerance on one hand or absolving people because they feel bad on the other.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
First off, I'd like to say that I think it is unfair to load all the blame on the school. However, for those of you criticize him for doing a "silly thing"... Do you remember what it was like to be thirteen? Do you remember being a teenager? Part of being a teenager is being unstable, he didnt have to have problems in order to do something like that, 30 thousand people in America commit suicide every year, do they all have problems? The truth is that when you are thirteen and have never been yelled at before it will scare the crap out of you. This is a kid who go nothing but praise his ENTIRE life and to have to deal with a 10 day suspension (can you say "goodbye ivy league"?) is heartbreaking. When you're a teenager losing your girlfriend of two weeks is a huge ordeal, imagine this. Thinking logically, yes its a very rash reaction, but the bottom line is you dont think logically all the time when you're a teenager. I'm not saying we should exempt children from the law, but we have to keep that in mind. Adults all too easily forget the feeling of every emotion seemingly swallowing you whole and thats not fair at all. Ever wonder why "kids these days" always seem to be rebelling? Maybe because they cant adults who can empathize with them. I'm well aware there are plenty of adults that can help kids get through those times, but the sad truth - and yes im stereotyping - is that there arent too many of those adults in school authority positions. Do you really think kids feel safe talking to their guidance counciler about their problems? Before we condemn people for "silly actions" we have to try to see things from their perspective.
"I don't like this deep shit about crazy crap"
Now that's another question entirely. The principal may have used the "right" weasel words to make the threat of criminal proceedings "clearly" nonexistent, but most 13-year olds aren't going to hear the conditionals, they're going to hear "We could have you arrested for this.". That's exactly what the principal expected him to hear, and wanted him to hear. Was it wrong of the principal to make a threat that he knew to be false, but also knew that the student probably wouldn't realize was false? That school district is probably fortunate that I won't be sitting on the jury of a wrongful death lawsuit.
First I want to extend my deepest condolences to all who are directly affected by this tragedy.
I have a twelve year old brother who in his quest to be just like his older brother, has taken on a quite impressive knowledge of computers, networks and programming. I start to question myself that if in his child like curiosity had he done something similar, what would his emotional response be?
In 7th grade our class was introduced to the Basic programming language, an hour a week. Of course there being more kids than computers, I was one day assigned to the main server to use... go figure. As I worked on my assignment I mistyped a line number for a "goto" statement and inadvertantly created an endless loop. As can be forseen the server locked up and all kids were kicked out of their assignment. The teacher who had no idea what was going on assumed I did this on purpose. For the first time in my school career of being a straight A student, living up to my parents expectations, and fear of becoming less then the best, I got in serious trouble. Sitting in detention that day, I felt emotions that no 12 year old should feel. I had thoughts that not only scared me but would scare anyone else as well.
Do not blame the beautiful innocence of a childs curiosity.
Blame socities ignorance. The same soicety that does not realize the group of gifted children that are being brought up in this technologically advancing world. If we can not come to realize that the emotions of a child are amazingly fragile, we are doomed to repeat undeserved wrath upon them. This common thread also expands to the increase in school violence.
Don't assume, become aware.
Eddy.WriteLinux.Com
this is in danger of degenerating into the pit of wallowing self pity that was hellmouth.
first off. the suspension was not a direct cause of the suicide... if the kid takes time to write a note, its not a spur of the moment thing. might have been the straw that broke the back, but no more. suggestions of mail bombing the district are ludicrous.
secondly. was this an "out"? its common for people in high stress high risk occupations (and you geeks out there know what i mean... gotta keep that 96% or else you are fucked...) to look for an out. ever played sick on the day of a big test? ever slowed down enough to not make a final so you wouldnt have to face the crowd? sometimes failure while not trying is better than the hideous prospect of trying your hardest and still failing.
ever had a father who wondered just where the plus was on the A when you brought the report card home? have you ever been good at everything, and never tried something new for fear of it being the one thing you cannot do?
the main problem being that very few children are taken seriously when they appear to be stressed out of their ever-loving tiny minds. jimmy? stressed? hah, if i only i had his easy life as mom shuffles reports brought home from work. he's only a kid. its just a phase.
Isn't it just Matthew Broderick who's seen hacking into the school computers?
That sucks for Schwartz, but this is about a kid in school. It's a bit different. The school would almost certainly not have prosecuted and gotten him in court, and if they did, this kid was what, 13? Now a 13 year old won't go to jail for this. He may be put on probation, but in most cases wouldn't his record be wiped when he turns 18 anyways?
I read the article, and from what I can tell, the kid was bright and non-malicious. He appeared to be hacking for curiousity (the classic reason). I'm sure that he would have fixed the security holes. Hell, the "tiger team" approach is one of the only reliable ways to audit the security on a system. The school administrators were brain-dead.
Disclaimer: I'm not un-biased. I had completed all the computer coursework that my Junior High offered in a month. Obviously, I should have been allowed to learn programming (home computers were not an option back in the early 1970s). But I was forced to sit there and do nothing as punishment for not wanting to go to gym class. Rational school administrators are the exception, not the rule. Most are secret facists who get into a job where they can exercise autocratic control over people who do not have the rights granted to adults.
"How perfectly Goddamn delightful it all is, to be sure" Charles Crumb
It's possible. The computer at a school is going to attract hacking attempts from students. It's been going on since computers had first been put in schools. The student hacking into the school computer is part of our culture - see films going as far back as War Games. "Just Say No" works about as well with hacking into school computers as it does with drugs. No administrator could reasonably claim that they didn't expect that hacking attempts would be made.
Yes, but I'm talking about a civil tort rather than a crime. And if the store owner doesn't take reasonable steps to minimize the threat of thefts, the insurance company can refuse to cover the losses.
I don't want to open an entirely different discussion, but if you were talking about a gun, in most places the parents would bear some part of the responsibility.
If the administrators of this computer system maintained reasonable security procedures...they have nothing to worry about. But I'd bet it will come out that passwords haven't been changed in years, dormant accounts haven't been deleted, security patches haven't been applied, etc. If that's the case, the parents have a case for the system being an "attractive nuisance".
Terorizing a student is not an effective replacement for good security.
"How perfectly Goddamn delightful it all is, to be sure" Charles Crumb
The point is that they had no interest in furthering my education in areas where I had displayed true aptitude. Instead, they showed that all they were interested in was in trying to make everyone the same. Gym class was a hell-pit of bullies, and as the administration had no interest in diciplining the bullies (generally, the ones who were good at sports) so instead they forbade me from doing what I was good at. As a result, I didn't get my hands on a computer for nearly a decade. If I had started hacking on that old IBM 370, I have no idea where I would have wound up.
These "educators" showed that "education" was far lower on their list of priorities than submission to their will. That is sick.
"How perfectly Goddamn delightful it all is, to be sure" Charles Crumb
You act as if "the rules" are things handed down by God. Rule are just the expressions of people, and yes, rules can be wrong and flawed. Punishments, likewise, can be wrong and flawed. Bad rules should be broken.
"How perfectly Goddamn delightful it all is, to be sure" Charles Crumb
There's a legal concept called an Attractive Nuisance -
It applies to things like swimming pools, but it should equally apply to things like computer systems so poorly maintained that script kiddies (or larval stage hackers) can easily crack them. If a pool owner is legally responsible for some kid drowning because the gate on his fence was broken, the school district should be liable for a computer system that multiple 13 year old kids have broken into. This is as if several kids have drown in the pool.
"How perfectly Goddamn delightful it all is, to be sure" Charles Crumb
At the risk of appearing Troll-like, one has to ask -
Why don't they fix they damn holes before they kill another kid?!?
I mean, seriously. How incompetent are the IT losers working at the school district that they've been hacked several times? Why don't they take a more progressive approach like - gosh, I dunno - making the punishment a 2000 word report on exactly how you broke in and suggestions on how to fix the hole?
"How perfectly Goddamn delightful it all is, to be sure" Charles Crumb
Why's that? Doing at least two of those at the same time was required for our past Presidential Election. Since it lasted what a month, all 3 ended up being a daily thing. Drive to work, drink at lunch while watching the lastest up-to-the-minute report on the 2000 election, drive home, waller away in pitty and dispair while thinking of the dumbass at the helm of nukes and drink/cry yourself to sleep.
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Your point that we don't seem to know what he did in the system is more important than you think. Most ./ers are familiar with stories of overreaction on the part of the authorities. Hell, I got fired from a temp job for changing a screen saver - only to hear them tell it, you'd think I had been hacking. Rot in hell Siobhan McComb! Those of us who work and play with computers often find that others treat them like a primitive idol - a mixture of fear, reverence, superstition, and a sense that these things are too powerful for humans to control - objects of religion. We, on the other hand, treat them as magical objects - you just have to know the right incantations (some readers will note my use of religion vs magic does not imply superstition on the side of magic - read Frazer's The Golden Bough).
It may not be a have been a heavy news item, and I wish there was more info on what the kid did (you can bet the school system is being tight-lipped about it now) but it's not irrelevant, either.
Boss of nothin. Big deal.
Son, go get daddy's hard plastic eyes.
Expanding a vast wasteland since 1996.
"kid decides to go ahead and kill himself because of the POSSIBILITY that he may be suspended,"
No he did not kill himself because of a possiblity of suspention. He was told he was going to jail (I probably figure he was also told that he would be raped in jail because that's what adults seem to use to scare kids straight but that's just conjecture). If he was told he was merely going to be suspended then he would not have written a suicide note saying he did not want to go to jail.
The problem with your reasoning is that you seem to think that every act has ONLY one responsible party. In this this case you have decided that the kid has 100% responsibility for the suicide and the adult who scared the shit out of him unnecessarily is 0% responsible for this event. Unfortunately life is not that simple. Every act and every person has thousands of forces acting on them all of these forces are partially responsible for the resultant action. I think it's prefectly reasonable to say that the school shoulders some percentage of the blame here.
This act is especially troublesome considering that the principle and the teachers of the student had some responsibility to judge the mental stability of the student. They are supposedly trained to detect suicidal teens.
I figure the parents will sue the school and win a big money damages and the school will be more careful the next time they try to scare the shit out of some 13 year old. Too bad nobody had the insight at school to prevent this in the first place.
War is necrophilia.
The kid wrote on the suicide note that he would rather die then go to jail. I wonder how he got the idea that he was going to jail?
War is necrophilia.
Once again it was the responsibility of the teachers and the principles to judge the mental stability of the person they were talking to. If you are unable to judge the mental state of your students, if you are unable to communicate properly with your students so that they understand what you are talking about you should be fired. If the result of your gross incompetence is a dead student then you should be sued and have your life ruined.
War is necrophilia.
The surrounding situation is that the school uses Novell Netware for the school's network, and they don't have it locked down well at all. My friends were simply 'bypassing security' (as the school administartion put it) by making shortcuts on floppies at home to C:\ and bringing 'em to school so they could use the drive, and then putting them on their network shares for easy access - that type of thing. One or two of them also put some MP3's on their network drive so they could listen to them while they worked - perfectly legit. (The problem errupted when one idiot not associated to me shared their MP3 folder on the network, but that's another story for another day).
I got the lowdown from the system administrator, who is a typical linux hippie BOFH. He's essentially there for the paycheck, and doesn't care about the school's network since nothing important is on it. (That, and he wants kids to learn and experiement - thus, the lack of 'security') Basically, a stupid witch of a 'teacher' that baby sits the computer classes saw that a couple people were sharing files over the network - namely MP3's - and shat her pants, and went to yell at the sysadmin.
Bad goes to worse, and all of my friends that are still in HS (about 20 different ppl) and both my siblings, a brother and sister, are called to the office.
Everyone got their network access restricted (I think - I know that some of them did, at least), and the guys got the basic 'you are a thorn in the side of civilization' berating - even though they're not bad people - I don't think any one of them has a criminal record, most are good students, many are the 'good' kids, and all are outstanding human beings. They might have also gotten detention, I'm not sure.
On top of that, both the females (my sister and one of her friends) were told that the administartion wasn't 'too worried' about them, since the girls were not 'challenging the authority and rules' of the school - even though they'd done the exact same thing as the guys. I'm guessing the discrimination was due to the fact that the guys all generally dress 'punky' or 'gothic' and the like, while the chicks have more of a generic chick look to them - not 'preppy' but more current in style than the guys. That, and both the girls are very attractive. Given the male administration, I can draw several conclusions.
The truely hillarious thing about the whole situation is, the administration didn't have a clue what really happened. It turns out that pretty much every one of my friends has the netware admin passwords (4 admins), as well as having one or two backdoors to the bloody network. They could easily bring everything down and get even.
But they haven't, and that's what's hillarious.
-------
CAIMLAS
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
-------
CAIMLAS
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
"But changing grades is an extremely serious offence."
No, murder is. And do you know how many people get suspended sentences/get off for this crime?
And its 8th grade. Do you know how subjective they make those grades? How much will your 8th grade marks mean to you when you are 30? Its minor.
"He seriously got off very easy if all he got was a 10 day suspension"
Thats exactly what scared him into suicide. He thought that there was/deserved more punishment and that his life was runined.
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
Let's think about this.
The kid is 13 years old.
He's a hacker, and (I am guessing) has something of a romanticized view of hackers and the "freedom" connected with them.
He's being threatened with jail, i.e. loss of personal freedom.
He's also probably been the target of harassment at school. (Again guessing, but it seems logical.)
He's a bright kid. Into information. Probably reads/watches lots of news.
Probably has heard about prison rape.
May well have been the victim of bullies who have threatened him with something similar (a fate many of my computer-geek male friends suffered at approximately that age - fortuantely, it stayed a threat).
Probably has a general idea that prison is a scary place to add to that.
Jail, in his eyes, would NOT be a straw. It would be a one-ton load of bricks, if I'm looking at this at all accurately.
"Somebody exploded a letter-bomb today
Firstly, condolences to this child's family, friends, teachers and schoolmates - this would be hard to deal with, no matter what relationship you had with this boy.
I can see the school getting the blame from some people for this - which is a bit unfair. What this kid did do was evidently illegal - stressing the point I would say was done more to emphasise that he shouldn't do similar things again, than to push him into the kind of depression that leads to suicide. Being so smart as to know what he was doing, one must wonder how he didn't already know it was illegal, or at least morally and ethically wrong, and really, being 13 is no excuse - if he's smart enough to hack into the school district's systems, then he should know the ramifications of being caught, and the likelyhood of it happening.
It does appear that the suspension was the limit of the punishment that the school intended on carrying out on the boy - the real trajedy here (apart from the death) is that the boy appears not to have been clear on this himself. It is important, *especially* so with children, to be very clear when indicating the future direction of actions to be taken in response to someone's actions - the boy, from his suicide note, felt that he was going to be sent to prison - when the worst he appeared to be destined for was a negative mark on his school record - this obviously wasn't made clear to him, and his suicide was the result.
A very sad day when someone, gifted as this boy was or not, commits suicide, especially when it's at least partially due to a lack of understanding about the situation.
I am betting that there are going to be a plethora of posts in here blaming the school districts for what they did.
The point is, he hacked the schools network (illegal). The article dosen't say what he did, but he still did wrong, and the district was justified in punishing him. No one had any idea that such a drastic reaction would ensue, but it did.
All we can really do is pray for the family and his classmates, who right now have nothing more to say than "why?"
~~Dan
No man is an island, But if you take a bunch of dead guys and tie them together, they make a pretty good raft.
Someone at that school probably tried a "scared straight" routine on him. You're going to go to jail son. Do you want that? Do you want to share a cell with Bruno?
He was 13. Probably wasn't even to the age where he learns to distrust a lot of adult claims as bullshit. Now he's dead and it's a dead boy's word against a school official.
I hope the principal or whoever uttered that false threat understands what they did...
Ok, my first reaction was that this was a tragedy that could have been avoided if the school (and this whole society) would get it's head out of it's ass. It's unfortunate that "great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds". I'm still burning from the Columbine/Hellmouth/etc. fallout.
But the second reaction I had was: was this yet *another* kid that was pushed too far by his parents? I don't know if this has anything to do with being Indian. Perhaps it does. My father was Indian, and I suppose understandably from his dirt poor background growing up in Calcutta, he was constantly pushing his kids to do well in school. I was his first child, and only son, so that came down pretty heavy on me. Again he wondered "why-I-was-always-on-the-computer".
It seems like it could be that this kid was already pushed too far, and the "disgrace" of being suspended pushed him off the edge. So yeah, the school needs their heads kicked in...I wouldn't mind seeing people lose their jobs or being sued (although I typically hate frivolous lawsuits). But parents, and perhaps some of you Slashdotters out there are parents, need to be aware that you can't *always* push a kid and take no outward signs as everything being "OK".
Somehow you have to clue in successful kids that failing once in a while is OK. Otherwise you're just setting them up for a big fall.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
The most immediate images to spring to mind are trains and furnaces...
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
"But this young man did violate school rules and regulations and he understood the severity of the rules he broke...." - Dist. Supt. Fitzsimons
The kid was 13 years old, do you really think he had a grasp on the consequences? Do you think that before he decided to break into his school's computer systems, he honestly thought he might go to jail for what he was doing?
This angers me because it's the parents role to teach kids right and wrong, and as such, I think that unless someone is in serious danger, the parents should be contacted before action is taken against a 13-year-old. I think that Shinjan's parents should have been the ones to first discuss with him, his 'crimes' and their consequences. I mean really, where did the kid get the idea that he was going to go to jail?
Shinjan's parents hoped those accomplishments were only the beginning (my emphasis added).
fer cryin' out loud, that alone is more than most people accomplish in 12 years of school, and this kid was only 13. add the problem of having to be as good as, or better than his brother, and you've got one hell of a lot of pressure on a 13 year old kid. his father said "my life is meaningless now"; would he have said the same thing if his son had gotten his girlfriend pregnant, or been caught with a gram of pot? probably, since either of those things would be considered a failure by the kid's parents. yes, this is tragic, because someone died who shouldn't have, but I don't think the school district deserves all of the blame. I might have done the same thing living in an environment like that.
Karma only matters to me now and zen.
10 days is a little extreme for that type of violation. It's a max of 5 days in our school district and you have to do something seriously bad to come close to that. IE. threaten other students, offer "plans" of the school (like where good places to plant bombs would be). A kid was writing virii in compsci class and I think all he got was a 3 day.
Aside: Way back when, my high school had the highest aggregate SAT scores for any public school in NJ, to a large degree because it was in Murray Hill, NJ, home of AT&T Bell Labs (now Lucent). About half of the kids in town were raised by parents who were professional scientists and engineers.
And perhaps unsurprisingly, our little town of 13,000 also had the highest teen suicide rate in the nation. For a couple of years, the valedictorian of the graduating high school class never actually made it to graduation.
A 13-year-old is still just 13, no matter how good he is with computers; the school should have treated him as a 'special needs' student who had done something wrong, not as an independent and emotionally mature adult, or as a criminal.
-Mark, hoping the next kid makes it through OK
A large number of north americans (Canadians as well as Americans) have a very low view of felons because all they see on TV are the worst 2% or so. They never see the guy who went to jail for not having his tax receipts for his business from 4 years ago, or the person who speeds excessively on an empty highway to get to a client's location or else he'll lose them, etc.
A _lot_ of people go to jail for things that you and I either have or would do. These people should _not_ be looked down on the way they are.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
WHY did I do it? Because I loved networks and wanted to learn how they worked. When I got control, I didn't do anything particularly malicious (no mark-changing, etc), but I poked around at all the administrative functions. This was far enough back that I hadn't yet had a home-network to play with.
The point is that nobody got hurt, I changed everything back, and I learned about networking. I'm glad I don't live in (the USA in general actually) a draconian system like that. Inquisitive kids should just get a good strong slap on the wrist so they never do it again, but making an example of them in this fashion is just bad.
Do you really believe that the administration did something wrong? If so, what are you basing your opinion on?
If the kid had thrown a rock through the school window, the punishment would most likely be the EXACT SAME THING. Suspension, with a comment about the illegality of the act. How much milder should it be? Who's responsiblity is it to discuss the act and the ramifications of it?
Geek and Hacker are not elite status' that kids get awared because they are intelligent. The ONLY thing that makes this a tragedy is that the only solution the kid saw was suicide. But when there's no other indication of suicide, then perhaps no-one is to blame.
-- You can't idiot-proof anything, because they're always coming out with better idiots.
Ya, let's all spend millions of dollars psychologically evaluating every kid who does anything wrong before punishing him, for fear that he might snap and do something crazy like kill himself.
Not to take away from the tragedy, but didn't his parent's notice that the kid was disturbed, after he was sitting home, expelled from school?
I really don't understand the intent of posting this article on slashdot. How does it apply to anything? Because he was a hacker?? You think maybe something similar has happend in the past, for a different crime?
The poor kid was disturbed and unstable, so he did something silly. Not the fault of anyone, because it could not have been predicted.
--
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
Are thirteen year old kids usually noted for being emotionally stable? Isn't this something an educator should consider before making threats?
You're right. I suggest not punishing kids at all, or informing them of the consquences of their actions, until they are at least 18.
--
python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
30,575 dead.
Shinjan one of them. Tied a rope from his head.
Genius. Computers. Genius Programming. Creative outlets, nothing but another challenge.
These are the words that you constantly shun.
Because you are a school, a euphemism for prison.
The boy was gifted, the boy challenged himself, and completed his goal.
You punished him, rapped him, and then sent him home.
His life had meaning, a future, and pride.
From his family, friends, and the world death is now were he hides.
And you revert the blame?
You say its not your fault?
You wash your hands of the blood, while the public protests and shouts?
Zero-tolerance for hacking?
What about zero-tolerance for ignorance?
What about zero-tolerance for the death of the innocent?
HE IS DEAD.
IT IS YOUR FAULT.
But you cant even comprehend what I speak about.
You should have praised him, congratulated him, and patted him on the back.
And yet shinjan has died. Just for knowing how to hack.
Children must push their limits.
Smart people want to challenge themselves.
Schools: ENCOURAGE THE PASSION OF COMPUTERS.
The back button on my browser is broken... so I would appreciate it if everyone would put a "target=new" into their link
I just want, once, someone to stand up in the middle of the school assembly, or PTA meeting, and recite this little piece: You have killed a person. A person who never drew one drop of blood from you is dead, and its your fault. Someone whose biggest real crime was doing something you can't, you just broke his neck as easily as snapping the spine of a chicken for Sunday dinner. If you looked at the autopsy photos, you'd see a disturbing similarity between the rope burn patterns and your fingerprints. You are a murderer. I hope you enjoy the sobriquet, because it should haunt you until you, yourself, die. The worst is you didn't have to kill this soul. You could have listened to it. You could have tried to figure out why it was seeking what it found. You could have stepped aside with your mighty ego and tried to figure something out. You could have elevated it. You did none of these things. Enjoy your dreams.
-- Riding the Winds of Fires Lit in Ancient Days
Some of you people have got to be kidding me. When I was in the sixth grade, I screwed around with my middle school's network. (If anyone reading this goes to Half Hollow Hills middle school, I'd love to hear from you!) You know what they did? Why, they suspended me. And guess what? I deserved it. You can say whatever you like, but the way that the administration is going to see it is that you're screwing around on a network that contains very important data. Being told be the kid that he knows what he's doing is bullshit to them. What if he had screwed up and fubared the all the grading data or the attendence records? Suspension isn't an excessive punishment for potentially endangering all the data on the school's/county's/state's network. Very real damage could be done.
As far as suicide, that's bullshit. No one kills themself over a suspension. Find a therapist or a psychologist or a counselor. Ask them if they think even a chronic over-achiever with strict parents would do something like that over a suspension. In fact, I'd like to know why the journalist didn't. People who end their lives invariably have a history of emotional instability. And believe me, that can be hidden from the most intrusive of parents easily.
So, in conclusion, this article is bullshit. An unstable kid did something stupid, got punished for it, and that along with whatever else he was dealing with was just a little too much. Maybe a week from now those parents will find the kid's journal or one of his friends will come forward and tell them about what his feelings were *really* like.
Kevin "Cash Money" Spett
Kevin "Cash Money" Spett
Ignore your rights and they go away.
A friend of mine had a foster brother who was caught stealing things from one of the neighbors. The local Sheriff, apparently having heard about the success of the Scared Straight program aimed at juvenile delinquents, proceded to describe to the young man what he was in for if he entered prison. The young man committed suicide at the age of 16.
Seastead this.
Bullshit.
Even if the school system had the full authority of the old docrine of in loco parentis the school still has the responsibility to report to the parents anything that they consider a serious disciplinary problem. To withhold information from the parents is an unethical usurpation of parental authority and, indeed, was a contributing factor in that young man's death.
Seastead this.
However, one day my mom got a phone call saying that I had sent a death threat to the teacher in charge of the email accounts. I was sent to the Principal's the next day, and I was interrogated by the teacher, the assistant principal, and a police officer.
Needless to say, I did not write the email. The idiot teacher kept the passwords to all the accounts (which we were not allowed to change) in a black notebook in his room, which was easily accessible by students when the teacher was not present. In short, any student out to get me (and there were probably a few being that I was a computer geek subject to occaisional ridicule) could easily obtain my password and send an email from my account.
Thankfully, this was way before the whole spree of school shootings, so there was no paranoia among the school staff. I actually was able to proove to the assistant principal and the officer that anyone could have sent that email. Because of the fact that anybody could obtain anyone else's password, things were resolved in my favor. The next year, IIRC, school email was no longer available.
Had this happened within the last two years, I can envision that I probably would have been suspended, or even expelled, and that I might have even faced criminal charges due to the school's own stupidity. I feel sorry for high school kids today, because if they are even accused of something like this, they will probably get off much worse than I did, even if they never did anything at all.
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
IMO this is due to pop culture's perception of hacking. If I told people that I was hacking some code people I know would swoon at the thought of my 'illegal' behaiour.
The school threatened the poor guy and got all up tight and crazy about it and scared the crap (and life) out of him.
That's a real pity. Maybe they should have got a clue about security instead.
My worst crime at school was programming stuff when I should have been writing essays. Ooops. A week without computer access. But even with that black mark against me I still had the root password and was responsible for adding new users and resetting passwords. Props to my old school.
I don't understand these schools.
Prevent email address forgery. Publish SPF records for y
No one can get a recognized blackbelt in Taekwondo below 18, unless it's just a pre-approved(Read: pseudo) blackbelt given by his trainer for his good work. But it's not a real blackbelt.
In your club maybe, but I received a black belt Tae Kwon Do at exactly the same age as this kid. I went to the same official gradings as everyone else, and had to perform the same sparring, patterns and breaking as any adult had to.
I also had a lot else in common, such computers being my primary interest. I used to hack into the school system, along with one of my best friends. I never really knew why I was doing it, there was no need as I had a computer at home, but I was just curious and wanted to see how far I could get.
Kids don't worry about breaking rules at that age, apart from the obvious killing and stealing the whole concept of 'illegal' is abstract - what matters is what your parents will tell you off for (and police only 'spy on you' on behalf of your parents).
I also got into similar trouble at the same age (but for buying an illegal weapon on a school exchange - I just thought it looked cool). There was talk of police and suspension/expulsion. I remember being totally bewildered as to why I was in trouble as I hadn't caused anyone any harm. Fortunately for me the matter was dropped.
However, I can imagine committing suicide in if I was in that boy's place. At 13/14, everything is the end of the world. If a girl doesn't want to go out with you it's the end of the world. If you fail your exams it's the end of the world. If I received that maximum suspension time and there was heavy-handed talk of going to jail (especially with Hollywood portrayals of brutality in jails) then I would have seriously considered 'opting-out'.
And contrary to many other comments on here, I don't believe you have to be 'unstable' to commit suicide. Even since a kid, I've always believed I own the rights to my life and it is up to me if I decide to take it away. I don't believe in any god or after-life, but I do believe I have a simple logical choice: whether to take that option and if I do then when.
Anyway, I feel sorry for the family of the child. Through no fault of their own, it sounds like they really send their child to the wrong school. Instead of the teachers trying to channel a teenagers natural mischief into something productive, it seems this school neglects its responsibilities to the child and merely tries to eliminate 'troublemakers' (succeeding quite literally in this case).
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
"He said if (Shinjan) was an adult, hacking into the computer system could be a crime."
I found that line pretty disturbing. Just about anything a kid that age does in middle school is a crime when done by an adult. Bullying in middle school is ignored, but if an adult had done the same actions it would translate to a mugging or assault. But schools typically look the other way regarding this kind of terrorizing. So suspending the kid for 10 days just because 'it would have been a crime if he were an adult' seems a bit extreme.
I suspect it had more to do with the 'loner hacking on a computer' scare that's going around these days. It seems like perhaps the punishment didn't fit the crime. Expecially because the youth was so scared that he killed himself afterwards.
My sympathies to his family and friends.
Insert simplistic political, ideological, or personal proselytization here.
If you're going to break the rules/laws, be willing to suck it up and accept the punishment, and think it through.
Don't accept any sympathy from me... take responsibility for your actions.
Mike Roberto
- GAIM: MicroBerto
Berto
...what too often happens to the great majority of kids damaged by our school systems that don't go the way Dylan and Klebold did.
We don't hold minors responsible for their actions, dumbass. That's what "minor" means. It's the same reason we don't let them vote or drive cars or buy whiskey.
If I had to take a wild stab at it, I'd guess that whatever administrator actually told the kid he was being suspended decided to really put the fear of God into him. Great job, Mr. Chips.
he wasn't stable enough to handle it and made to decision to kill himself
Have you known lots of stable 13-year-olds?
-- Support Ometz le-Serev.
I have no idea if you really know the situation are not, but if it is true that he hacked into the school's grade system, changed his grades, and sold access, then he definitely deserves to be punished to the absolute fullest extent. That definitely deserves suspension, or even expulsion. Not only is it theft and burgluray, but it's an insult to academic integrity.
From the article, and from the rest of the comments, people made it out to be something minor like reading teacher's e-mail or crashing the network. But changing grades is an extremely serious offence. He seriously got off very easy if all he got was a 10 day suspension (his own self-imposed punishment notwithstanding).
I'm going to fly right off the handle here.
My deepest and most sincere apologies to the whole family if this bears no relation to their own tragedy but:
Friend of mine committed suicide a few years ago. Young guy, bright, over-achiever and successful in everything. -- except when he finally met something he couldn't deal with, to his previous standards of success. It wasn't any big deal; it was the sort of thing I screw up twice a year and don't think twice about, but for him it was something new, big and scary. So he shot himself.
Now in my friend's case, an awful lot of both why he'd been such an over-achiever, and why he'd found it impossible to deal with this one crisis, was pressure from his parents. Not much, not "Give me 20 or it's off to Military College with you" pressure, but just the pressure that was so concerned with "doing well" it had never taught him to cope with doing badly.
Preferences|Exclude Stories from the Homepage|Authors. Check JonKatz. Press "savehome". Worked great for me.
-no broken link
"One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad
The Anti-Blog
"Suspension is shucking off the responsibility"
I loved getting suspended, it's the best. Think about it, no school, no homework, the works. If you like to sit infront of a computer all day, then why give the day to the kid so he can hack other things. What would have been a good punishment would be to be in school, doing something productive like deleting windows from all the computers in school.
It was kind of funny. I walked into class as I always do, and the teacher told me to just wait right by the door and not to enter the class. He then proceeded to call for an administrator and had me escorted down to the office for the paperwork. My parents were called and they didn't understand it, but they were on my side;
My guess was that I was suspended because the teacher was upset that he could not resolve the problem technically, and as he was "outsmarted", he would just punish me with a suspension. Since there was no rule on the books that related to such a matter, they treated it the same as if I had spray painted the walls or some other act of "vandalism".
I've not really minded it at all. I'm actually proud of the fact that I've never gotten in trouble for anything in school except this one act. At least this act was as a result of my skill and not some other delinquent activity.
--
Please consider making an automatic monthly recurring donation to the EFF
Mr Alston, your a tosser. You and little Johnie just bend over and let Kerry Packer fuck you and the whole Australian IT industry in the ass.
Your stupid pr0n laws, rediculous gambling laws, corrupt ASIO power extensions and ironically copying the DMCA has demonstrated to anybody remotely connected to IT what an A grade shit you are.
The sooner your kicked out the better.
---
---
Silence is consent.
I can tell you that our school system (for the record, I am on the School Board) greatly appreciates all our volunteers (esp., since the state legislature insists on meddling with our budgets).
If the administartor truly did put the fear of god
into the boy, than that was surely a contributing factor, but what I haven't seen discussed is the father's actions -- what kind of dad would just go back to work and leave their kid home along after that!?!
Shut up, be happy. The conveniences you demanded are now mandatory. -- Jello Biafra
This guy's son died and all he can think of which school district his son attended? No wonder getting caught hacking seems so terrible to this kid--dying may have seem better than getting in trouble with his dad.
"I thought I could organize freedom. How Scandinavian of me."
"We Dont know WHY he did it"
Let me tell you why. You morons told a young boy who has been forced to achieve by his parents that he was going to jail. To increase the drama you threw him out of class for 10 days. Yes, school is nothing more then a job with alot of short whiners for you people, but for the whiners its everything. You have crushed this young man, and promised him it was going to be worse. We dont know why, lets start with the note,
"I would rather die then go to jail" , I think that speaks for its self. The school didnt tie the rope, but they were the instrument of his death. If he hadnt been lied to about jail, and if he had recieved a more sane punishment he might have reliazied how useless the school is, and that their opinion didnt matter.
We are on the crest of a complete loss of control on our public schools. With zero tolerance, and uneducated educators, students will soon enough learn that the school only has its power becouse they yeild to it, but rather they cant throw the inter school into juvinal hall, they also cant suspend everyone. The students should stop regergitating facts and start to learn a thing or two, All they need to do is form a union. You see when the students strike, the schools ada falls to 0, and they dont get paid. 0 ada scares the teachers more then any thing else. The great thing is that ada is an average, so a few days of 0 attendance and they are screwed for months. If the stundent really want to remember their friend, they should stop crying about his death to school counlsers, and start striking until there is a studnet review/apeal board of all punishment.
I'd have to disagree here. If he were an adult, you would certainly have a valid point, but 13 year old kids do not necessarily think like adults. They tend to make rash decisions without fully comprehending all of the possible ramifications. In this case, I believe that he may indeed have been an otherwise 'normal' well adjusted teen who was simply overwhelmed by the apparent possibility of incarceration. Of course, it's also possible that he was on the brink of disaster, but definitely far from a certainty. I guess what I'm saying is that, by adult standards, nearly all 13 year olds have some psychological problems. We really shouldn't lose sight of what a volatile time it is in a person's life.
Implying that the school should know that a 10 day suspension and possible threat of jail is going to "cause" this kid to commit suicide (regardless of what he did) while tacitly accepting that even the parents had no idea it would happen is beyond comprehension to me.
My apologies to all. As many have pointed out, the article did not say that the student had been punished under a "zero-tolerance" policy, but rather the opposite. I misread that section of the article.
I still stand by my comments on "zero-tolerance", even if they are less applicable to this incident than my misreading of the article suggested.
If people are to respect the law, perhaps the law should begin by respecting the people.
Let's face it. Good kids are going to screw up. What these zero-tolerance policies do is to remove from the authorities any power, responsibility, or incentive to distinguish between the hopeless, incorrigible fuck-up and the kid who stumbles.
The kid committed suicide because he didn't want to go to jail. Does anyone doubt that there are school districts where he would have gone? I don't; not in the least. It's probably part of some district's "zero-tolerance" policy that was oh-so-popular with the voters, and it's still popular until some poor kid gets in trouble and kills themselves -- and even then, not a single person stops to think, "Gee, hey, maybe sometimes tolerance is a good thing."
If people are to respect the law, perhaps the law should begin by respecting the people.
Our comments won't change the fact that what is said in the article itself is what stands and what should stand, and they won't change the fact that we really don't need to know about it. I hate to sound insensitive, but it really seems to me that this is just another story about life and death. Consider it for a psychology or philosophy book, or for a good story perhaps, but news? Let the family grieve for their son without the publicity.
The Church supported all of Galileo's early work, and it was the actions of jealous SCIENTISTS that brought about his condemnation.
In an early (1597) letter to Johannes Kepler, Galileo wrote that he thought that Copernicus' theory was correct, but that it would be better not to publish because the establishment would not accept it.
Twelve years later, Galileo made his famous observations with the telescope and published "The Starry Messenger", which he submitted to the Vatican and for which he received approval and support.
Then the scientific establishment started complaining, claiming that breaking with Aristotle was a heresy. They enlisted the aid of the Dominicans to denounce Galileo, but he continued to publish with the express permission of the Church. For instance, "The Assayer", is explicitly dedicated to the Pope.
Galileo's fall came at the hands of the scientist Schreiner, who managed to force a trial under the Inquisition. The head of the Inquisition supported him, and simply gave a reprimand, telling him to keep to objective facts. The scientific establishment was not satisfied and managed to get another trial, which is quite complicated in its course... The end result was a sentence of house arrest in a lavish home, exactly where Galileo preferred to do his work.
In fact, it was from house arrest that he published his "Dialogue Concerning Two New Sciences". The Church has since apologized for even this mishandling of the case.
In conclusion, it was not simpleminded religious zealots that persecuted Galileo, but rather simpleminded establishment scientists who had everything to lose in a scientific revolution.
"Not until we do somehting about it"
Yeah, let's hold a fucking "No More Forcing Kids To Suicide By Threatening Them With Jail Time" march!
What the hell can we do? It's the people who are ignorant of the geek/hacker mindset that need work, not us. And don't think that we can do much to educate them, either, because they're equally afraid of us as they are anything new or different.
Whatever the outcome, it's a very sad story...
--
Donate free food here
If law were this black and white, we wouldn't have the intricate layering of appeals processes, and we wouldn't have court rulings that consist for three quarters of quotes of other judges' interpretation of the law.
And while I don't want to enter the debate on whether the outcome of the trial is defendable on legal and moral grounds, I do want to point out that both parties have themselves to blame for letting it get this far out of hand.
I've been on the corporate side of such disputes more than once, and I'm actually quite proud none of them got out of hand to the point where talking could not resolve the issue (from both ends: getting the individual to stop damaging activities, and getting the corporation to at least listen to the warning signs).
Bert Driehuis -- All I asked was a friggin' rotatin' chair. Throw me a bone here, people.
My kids are all fairly young, 4 to 9. They are not equipped yet to make many important decisions, including things like what medical treatment to get, how (or whether) to get educated, or for my 4-year-old, even whether to eat anything other than ice cream.
Good parenting includes putting more and more decision-making and responsibility on a child as he is able to handle it. Hopefully, when he is ready to leave home, he will be making practically all his own decisions, and be well-equipped to face the world.
Of course, this all assumes a minimum level of good parenting. If you aren't getting that, then I don't know what to tell you.
"Rub her feet." -- L.L.
Now back to my tirade...
Parents, please smother your kids with positive forces!
First, spend (quantity, not just quality) time with them yourself. You are the best expert on your child...much better than any so-called "professional." It does not take a PhD to give love and adult guidance. Use educators, medical doctors, religious counselors, etc. as you see fit, but always reserve ultimate responsibility and authority to yourself.
Be very careful who you choose an an agent of your authority for educating your child. Investigate the public school in your area. Consider private school, or even home schooling. Whatever option you choose, stay involved. In the end, it is you who are responsible for your child.
"Rub her feet." -- L.L.
I would go further in this case, and claim that there is a moral obligation to intervene, but that case is harder to make.
Second, even when considering a sovereign adult, there a world of difference between persuasion and coercion. Certainly, one is morally permitted to try to dissuade someone from suicide.
Again, the case is harder to make, but I claim we should try dissuade people from committing suicide in at least most cases. We should also try to help them address the problems in their lives that are causing them to consider suicide. If you subscribe to some form of "love your neighbor"-based moral code, then the argument for this case should be obvious. If not, then this would be a longer discussion than we have space for here.
"Rub her feet." -- L.L.
The above post is plagarized.
It is a near duplicate (minus hyperlinks) of my post in the recent story about contacting lost clients about bad security.
I don't know if I should be flattered, just have a good laugh, or send Slashdot a DMCA takedown notice.
(Just kidding about that last one!!!)
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
And dealing with a mental overload due to the overachieving made it worse. Pushing a person (even if the person doing the pushing is him/herself) beyond their limits will eventually cause damage.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
If he moves to Nevada, he will NEVER be allowed to vote (we share this "distinction" with 13 other states). Sad but true.
Oregon is one of the states that is quite favorable to felon's voting rights.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
I recently graduated from the school district in San Diego, CA made infamous a few months ago when there were two school shootings (Santana and West Hills) within a very short timespan.
At the high school I attended, the string of inexplicable student behavior has been continued with half a dozen suicides or suicide attempts, some involving entire groups of friends.
My mother is in a position to be privy to this sort of information, and when she told me about the string of suicides at my old school, I was surprised as I hadn't heard anything about it. She told me that while she was in a position privy to such information, teen suicide was considered a provate issue -- and the press did not ever act on the information, out of respect for the families of the deceased.
Reading that this student was only 13, it makes me wonder why the press would run a story on his suicide, especially when I personally know of several such cases, none of which were ever mentioned in the press.
Grades are more a measure of conformity and how well you subjugate yourself to the teacher. Some kids are fine with that and accept it as a fact of life. Others are riled by it and find themselves unwilling to comply.
They typically get bad grades despite their intelligence, and find themselves ostracized by both the faculty and the other students.
"People who are good with computers" sounds alot like "advanced powerpoint user". The description certainly applies to users of commercial software packages.
Developers by definition are *not* satisfied with the rules presented to them, so they set about making their own (language|editor|interface|etc).
Teachers have no knowledge that is useful anyway
You might be shocked by how many teachers that applies to. You might also be shocked by how many straight "A" students are massive morons. Maybe one day youll meet a person with a PhD who is obviously inept.
I interview people for programming positions, and I have found education to be the least reliable indicator of talent.
I don't know what assurances I can give you... I delieved "The Times" as a paperboy for a year and a half and I can tell you that it isn't always right on top of the news. This did happen about a week ago.
I can also tell you that the crimes that he committed were serious. There are three different stories about what he did, they all involve him changing grades or selling administrator access. One has been verified by a teacher who I trust, that it the one that I told.
I live in this school district. I was suspended last year for a similar attack (I got Admin access but I didn't do anything with it, then I moved onto running linux and OBSD and found myself here). I was also threatened with jail time. It was a very empty threat.
The district web site has a little blurb about it which I think is very out of place.
I have heard various things about what he did. From what I can piece together: He was getting Cs and Ds. He cracked into the school grade system (called SASI), changed his grades, and changed some of his friends grades. He may have sold access.
The main other thing that I have learned was that the principal of the school was really shaken and broke down in front of the school.
If anyone wants any questions anwsers reply and I will do my best.
In a whole school assembly he began to talk about what happened and how the students should respond, what they should do if they see this happening to anyone else...
At some point he just could take anymore and just broke down. For a principal in our district he is rather young and he didn't know what to do.
The entire administration believes that they had nothing to do with this. He showed his head because he believe that he was 100% right in doing what he did. Apparently his conscience got the best of him.
Not that I believe that they did do that much wrong, but anytime a child resorts to killing himself, something went wrong.
This article seems to have people mixing up Suicide and Screwed up adminitrations. You seem to think that its alright to put people in charge who will push kids over the edge. Of course not every kid is ON the edge! but that doesn tmake it right to push those who are over it. The world we live in has choosen to damn ability, to punish those who can do things, and to let off those who can do nothign but destroy. Someone had mentioned that 6 years ago he had gotten the crap beaten out of him, and his attackers got a 3 day suspension. Yet a kid who has potentional, along with some other problems, gets a 10 day suspention. They have choosen to damn people who miss use there abilty MORE then those who HAVE NONE.
You have just said you will stand by and LET THEM damn abilty, even your own. I DO NOT! Those who hold minor crimes and more heinous then major ones DO NOT HAVE MY SANCTION! I will NOT say this is just part of life. IT IS NOT! You are irresponisble and self damning for given your sanction to those who would push kids over the edge. You might stand on that edge some day. And you have already given me permission to push you over.
----
"Nobody writes jokes in base 13." - Douglas Adams
I think a key point here is he was 13. It's an age where you just aren't a fully reasonable adult.
Almost modded this up, but I decided I'd reply to it instead.
13-year-olds ARE NOT ADULTS. As tang has said here, you just aren't fully reasonable. Not to mention that you can't drive, you can't vote, and you can't do 34092 other things that "adults" can do.
So why the fsck does our society persist in trying people as young as 13 as adults? I certainly don't condone what some of them have done, but this is setting a ridiculous double standard. Are they adults or not?
---
Check in...(OK!) Check out...(OK!)
I pledge allegiance to the flag...
of the Corporate States of America...
i think we may expect our school systems to be sensitive to the inner demons of thousands of individuals, while we're inclined to cut families a lot of slack when they are suprised by a child's behavior. i think this desire to place blame and produce "policy" is a crock and denies that each child--no matter how bright or where their gifts lie-- is an individual package. i think i qualify as a person that "the public school system failed". i was considered quite bright, but when i stopped attending, or my grades fell off, i was cut tremdendous slack. (i remember trying to turn myself in for truancey and having the attendance office staff stare at me in dis-belief.) at the same time i recall living in fear about the possible consequences of my actions. i eventually dropped out. i survived. in retrospect, i'd be inclined to say i was over-indulged by a school system that didn't want to hurt a bright white student, and neglected by a parent who had too much on her plate. but i survived. school systems,(esp. post columbine) are increasingly being pushed to see "other people's kids" as dangerous threats to "our kids". concurrently they are being bashed for not providing a nurturing enough environiment. if you were under this kind of bombardment at work, you'd probably scream about the death of common sense and eventually give notice. after reading all the threads about whether the punishment fit the crime -- should the parents be blamed, should the school be blamed -- *common sense* tells me that the school admin. *and* the parents thought they were dealing with a balanced, bright, high acheiver that just needed his cage rattled a little to get him back on track. they were wrong. but why do we think we're entitled to easy answers?
D
Mad Scientists with too much time on thier hands
The first, last, and only tech news site on the net
I've already seen several posts from people that this is just a case of curiosity and that the suspension was too severe. However, privacy is privacy. Many Slashdotters complain load and clear that they hate it when companies invade their privacy by sending spam, placing cookies on their computer and tracking users over the Internet (e.g. GUId). Yet, when someone hacks into a computer and looks aroung, many are willing to give all kinds of leeway and say that he's just curious and he really didn't do any harm. If privacy is so important to you (like it is to me), then any kind of hacking for curiosity sake is a violation of privacy. It does not matter if it is a poor user on the Internet, a school or a faceless big, bad corporation.
Congrats, good troll. (Heh I'm starting to sound like those arrogant "trollbusting" Slashbots).
You know, I thought the headline said "13 Year-Old... Commits Suicide." That would mean he killed himself... he died by his own hand... he made the conscious decision to end his life. Period. Did any of the school administrators physically commit the act of murder? No.
And who was to blame for the act of hacking? Perhaps the actual person (the 13 year old) who commited the act of breaking into security holes? I'd love to know how the admins are directly to blame for this. Maybe they might be dumbasses for not being aware of the holes, but that doesn't make them directly responsible. If a burglar breaks into your house, is it your fault for not having a foolproof million dollar security system with iron bars, laser motion sensors, high tech alarms, and hired armed guards? Nope, the burglar is charged with the crime of breaking and entering.
Sorry, but as fun as it is to use a tragic death to lash out at things we don't like, there's something called reason. The kid did a dumb thing by hacking the school's computers, and when he found himself about to be punished for his misdeeds (maybe the punishment seems a little harsh, but that's another issue) he wasn't stable enough to handle it and made to decision to kill himself. It's sad enough that the kid killed himself without a bunch of dumb gawkers sitting around trying to make him a martyr.
OOG THE OPEN SOURCE CAVEMAN!!! OOG BREAK HEAD WITH OPEN SOURCE CD!!!
No he didn't. He wasn't a minor in school. He cracked passwords as an adult while working at Intel Oregon. (I worked there around the same time). He probably wouldn't have gotten hozed so bad if he hadn't cracked the password of one of the *VP's*. This is where the Pentiums are designed. This is where every 50 feet is a padlocked "sensitive trash" recepticle and ceiling cameras all over.
Give me a BREAK. Acadamia's arrogance towards many "different" students ("geeks" or otherwise) is an insult to academic integrity - and so is your graceless comment.
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
I don't understand the principal's statement that if this student were an adult, it would be a crime. Breaking into a computer is a crime no matter what the age--the perp's age is relevant only in that a child is not judged in a criminal court, usually, but in a juvenile court--but it is the same crime.
But in this case, the principal and school system don't even use the juvenile court system, but instead set themselves up as judge and jury, with no due process or legal protection for the affected parties.
We don't really know yet what this kid was accused of, but you can bet that "breaking into a computer system" is going to be interpreted very liberally by the school system, and never in favor of the student. But this is stupid. As others have pointed out in this discussion, often the system or the administrators are at fault and give users little choice but to use it in a way that others might construe as misuse.
We should not forget that a child's life was sacrificed here. For what? The arbitrary power of the school principal? Do we really want teachers and principals and parents to exert such intense emotional pressures on kids that they kill themselves? For what?
I don't want to see this young man's actions reduced to a response to a single incident. The life of any 13 year old is fraught with many events which are so seemingly huge at the time. Try to remember how complex life is for a young teen, especially a bright one. A single article is not enough for any of us to gain signifigant insight into his motivations.
Randal Schwartz (co-author of Programming Perl) did just this thing and was taken to court and Convicted of three felony counts, with (deferred) jail time. Read all about it at
http://www.lightlink.com/spacenka/fors/
The good news is he likely won't serve any time.
The bad news is quite bad though. As a felon he is legally barred from many rights full citizens (which he NO LONGER IS in the eyes of the law) have.
It is illegal for him to own a firearm ever again everywhere, (in some states, not his state of Oregon) to ever vote again, and of special interest to people in the I.T. field:
It is illegal for him to work in certain technical jobs ever again. Such as working for a certification authority in at least one State.
Also, a lot of people are under the impression that all felons are intrinsically untrustworthy individuals.
The above still applies even if the persons motives were pure.
P.S. Randal Schwartz would likely have not been convicted if he were in Nevada. The laws here provide for implied authorization of an employee to access employer's systems unless their is "clear and convincing" evidence to the contrary. He still could've been fired though (Nevada is an at will state).
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
In regards to this particular situation, this continues to underline the problems of "quiet children" which (I think) have recently come to light but have been brewing for years. That said, the young man probably had an inclination to commit suicide way before this: from what I've read, most people seem to think about it well beforehand.
And I agree with what someone else said: 10 days of suspension seems extremely rough. If this kid was actively trying to change grades (the article doesn't say) I would think a schoolweek (5 days) would be sufficient. This is 2 school weeks. I remember kids bringing weapons into my high school and seemingly receiving less.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
From his other accomplishments (tae kwon do, violin, ribbons from various events) mentioned in the article, he doesn't seem like someone who'd be getting C's and D's.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
There was occasionally a brilliant student that would get special attention (an 8th-grade student got to attend high school alegbra, for example) and they were many programs for certain niches of people, including the "smart kids", but this 2% thing is completely hogwash.
A compadre of mine got 1590 on her SATs, took every AP course the school offered, and was my competitor in every way, form, and fashion. My girlfriend was validictorian of her class (one year below me), scored something close to perfect on the verbal section of the SATs (I think her total score was above 1500) and was captain of the tennis team to boot.
We were also good friends. If either had been invited to any "special program" for the top 2%, I would've known about it.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
When a student is getting A's and B's, they are pushed to take on as many extracurricular activities as they can to show that "they are well-rounded". It supposedly helps get them into better schools.
For example, in addition to AP courses, I was an editor for the school's literary magazine, wrote for the newspaper, played ice hockey, did academic decathelon, and other stuff.
My girlfriend (she was validictorian of her class -- I was saluditorian one year before) was the captain of her tennis team, leader of SADD, a writer for the literary magazine, editor for the school's newspaper, etc.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
You're going to be sorry when "your freakin kid" ends up at a community college, with a lower salary later on, and no innitative to try new things, when you didn't push him in school to try out many different activities. How can he/she find out "what they enjoy" when they aren't pushed to try new things? Sitting at home playing Nintendo doesn't count.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
Also, your logic is totally skewed.
- I don't care if they globalize against free speech. All my best free thoughts are done in my head.
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This event might have been the catalyst, but the kid clearly had some serious psychological problems. He didn't commit suicide because of this arrest, any more than the proverbial straw is the cause of the camel's back breaking.
--
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
I think a key point here is he was 13. It's an age where you just aren't a fully reasonable adult. I'm probably going to get flamed for that, but it's true. Getting busted for something where you are threatened with jail, ecspecially when you have a bright future ahead of you, is probably pretty crippling. I'm not saying he shouldn't have been punished. Children need to learn the boundaries and what happens when you cross them.
It's sad that someone with as much talent as he seemed to have threw his life away.
All this says is that they are clueless, and they explain it away as saying there is no answer.
And their standard answer is punishment by suspension. Punishment by itself is NOT educational. It is the theory that Pain is theraputic to Learning. Which is how some people train dogs. By Fear, Pain, and Punishment
Now the kid needed to be taught some responsibility. Obviously the school district is not qualified to teach this to those kids.
Check out the Vinny the Vampire comic strip
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
(thoughtfully worded snailmail probably best)
Grover Middle School
10 Southfield Road
Princeton, NJ 08550
Principal: Steven Mayer
But if you are in a rush, School Board email addresses and other info can be found here.
http://www.wwptoday.com/schools/schools.html
The district main website is at:
http://www.ww-p.org/
they have a blurb about handling trauma, but noting about the suicide itself
Please be careful to tread the original story, and cite the link as a source when you send email.
Mind you also that some of the teachers may well be innocent bystanders, and already upset enough as it is.
Be thoughtful and concerned in your reply, even if it is intensely emotional.
The problem is a system, that, under thew appearance of help, tends to do those things that destroy, even if benign neglect. "We didn't see it coming" they say, but they are supposed to be the professionals. They are supposed to know.
Check out the Vinny the Vampire comic strip
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
According to his parents, Shinjan -- a youngster known for his infectious smile and outgoing personality -- was not depressed and only the night before had discussed plans to improve his swimming times.
This is almost certainly what they'd say about me, if I committed suicide. It is extremely unlikely I'd do that, but I am rather depressed at times. It is important to remember that teenager with boundless optimism are not always as happy as they seem.
Stupid like a fox!
I go to a large university which shall remain nameless. (on account of network security services now knowing me by name).
Anyway, recently I downloaded the cvs of nmap. 'let's test it'. I see some connections to my computer, so I scan them.
Next thing I know I get a very nasty letter from the LAN security people saying that I had been found guilty of the following activities:
And that said activities may be illegal under federal and state law, and that they would assist in providing evidence to the proper authorities if I persisted.
I was very pissed. They also said it violated their user agreement and I could be immediately taken off the network.
Guess what? LIES!
I looked through their entire user agreement and nothing was mentioned about port scanning.
When I managed to meet with them, the head of network security was very rude and confrontational, however his two co-workers (not rude) did tell me that it wasn't illegal in any way and indeed not against their user agreement; it was just a scare tactic.
Now, I don't think this kind of thing is right at all. Maybe this is what happened to this kid, the people disciplining him decided to scare him so he wouldn't do it again. Obviously they went too far.
Yes, it was an illegal act, but probably no harm was done, and nothing would have come of it. Now look at what happened.
"just connect this to..."
BZZT.
Liberty.
Teachers & Admin need to be educated about what actually constitutes hacking and cracking.
During my time in school (a good 12 years ago) while I was 14 years old I plonked a few REM statements into a BASIC program that was stored on the school network, Basically leaving my tag there. Of course I was found out and was threatend and blamed for the effected codes malfunction, however this code was written by a student with no computer skills and was taught by *teacher* with no computer skills. The changed code had no structure to it and did not work in anyway whatsoever, it was the equivalent of my attempts to speak German (I knew about 8 phrases) I was threatened with criminal damage and was from that day blamed or held in contempt for anything that happened in the computer labs, even the insertion of a chocolate bar into a disk drive!
The educators need to be educated on what is really an offence, not the FUD that is spread by MS, but the real deal.
My heart goes out to the family and friends involved.
Does it go on forever?
About 1 month before 8th grad ended for me in 1996, I was called into the vice-principal's office for a talk. I was being accused of stealing property from the library, violating the grading system, and crashing 3 school email networks.
In reality, what I had done was sent a really really large email (~50MB) through the system. Because everything was going haywire, they expected the worst.
My parents were called at work and told that I had broken some "serious school rules." There was no due process. There was no search for understanding. There was no compassion. I was suspended in school for 5 days. I had to sit in a sterile classroom and read/copy from books onto paper. I couldn't interact with any of my peers as they walked past the classroom. I felt like I was going to die.
The school administrators that deal with disciplinary problems deal with guns, drugs, and lewd conduct all day. They treat the computer people, generally meeker and milder and more intelligent, the same as everyone else.
This is the fundamental problem: children with a high propensity for computer use aren't your regular disciplinary problem kids. We're usually over active and very curious.
This is a very hard thing to get a grip on. But the question remains, how are schools supposed to deal with computer kids? Mere understanding doesn't do the trick. "Refocusing creative energy" sounds like an administrative cop-out.
Currently, I'm attending a school with an honor code. The administration believes students when they say something. However, I don't believe this would work in middle school. What is the solution?
No flame here. No throwing the blame on society. No repetetious praising of how talented the kid was, how much potential he had. Just a virtual moment of silence for a poor kid.
May this never happen again.
But district Superintendent John Fitzsimons said school officials followed disciplinary policies in this case, and although teachers and administrators are grieving the loss, they aren't responsible.
It's all horribly sad. And a grotesque illustration why 'leaders' should be capable mentors and not be ruled by policies. This brilliant policy, blindy applied to this child, was clearly inappropriate.
I hope this unconscionable act haunts these 'officials'.. it should.
-Nowt
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess? - Joshua (Wargames)
Hey, I bet this kid isn't going to break into any more computers! See, zero thought--er, tolerance works! Ashcroft is right!!
That's a great analysis. Very dismissive, and very shallow. I appreciate your insight. But really, hasn't it crossed your mind that maybe this kid was just fucked in the head? If you read the article, the kid was obviously a child prodigy. Last I checked, most child prodigies ARE whack in the head in some way or another. Besides, a normal, mentally healthy kid would NOT kill himself over a suspension or even a stern "you could get thrown in jail for this". This kid obviously had problems, and it's disgusting to see a pack of morons try to sum up this situation with a few trite lines and use it as some kind of geek rallying cry. The kid had problems, he was very smart, he happened to be a geek, and he killed himself. Period. Whether these things were related to each other in any way, we'll never know. Trying to make some connection betweeen his geekiness and his suicide is just pathetic.
I'm amazed at all of the calculated, affirmative judgements in this sid already, stating that "he obviously had other problems, else he wouldn't have killed himself".
We are dealing with very incomplete information here. In this age of Rule by the Lawyers, the school system is keeping the details of the boy's infraction under wraps. What they are releasing has been spun, as is the custom, to provide absolutely no information.
This is offtopic, but consider the folly of making any judgement in this age. Every organization, whether private or public, requires some sort of Non-Disclosure Agreement for all involved. As well, they only disseminate information through a chosen individual or tightly-controlled group. As well, enough spin is applied to render the information worthless.
This makes me wonder about most of the stories posted on slashdot. We are handed spin from one or two sources and let loose in the forum, trying to draw conclusions from a black box.
Ewige Blumenkraft!
Ewige Blumenkraft!
A student at my school committed suicide after he was caught using school computers to print racist materials from the Internet. Administration was kind enough to give him the option of being the one to tell his family and gave him several days to explain before they called to speak to his parents. This happened just before a weeklong vacation, at the end of which he hung himself in his garage with his family in the next room watching a video. There is absolute no way the school can be at fault for this. To think, as many did, that the school (or the school mentioned in this article) is responsible for pushing a student to kill themselves is simply wrong. Normal healthy kids don't kill themselves when they get in trouble, nor do they prefer death to imprisonment.
He earned a black belt in tae kwon do with less than four years of training.
No one can get a recognized blackbelt in Taekwondo below 18, unless it's just a pre-approved(Read: pseudo) blackbelt given by his trainer for his good work. But it's not a real blackbelt.
Why should they created some artificial award for kids? Simple, it's to give them a sense of sucess and achievement. However over-appraised kid might not be able to withstand the pressure of one failure(well, adults have that problem too). I can tell from what his father said that this kid has received a lot of sucess and pressure comes with them.
Homeschooling. It's the only answer.
Thank Eris I prudently decided not to have kids myself. I thought my childhood was a living hell, but I had no idea. Sheesh.
Brackets contain world's first nanosig, highly magnified:[.]
This happens forever, over and over. The idiots of society (read: Gomfie) piss off people and drive them to insanity. When the authorities, the people that should be proud of these kids for learning shit, rebel against them, and hurt them.. What other choice is left? I surely don't think a 13 year old has many choices, especially when thrown into an environment where they can never function.
Seeka
"I really don't have any idea what was going on in his mind," said Rita Majumder, Shinjan's mother. "But they surely are to blame."
Funny... my parents, knowing that suspension from school is the root of all the troubles in this world, just made sure I didn't do something to get myself suspended.
Even giving this woman the opportunity to voice this opinion to a mass audience is irresponsible. She's upset, but she needs to take some responsibility. By not taking reponsibility for her actions, she also managed to pass that trait on to her child. Rather than dealing with his actions, he took what he saw as the easy way out.
Moderators, please read the moderation guidelines. Whether or not you think the parent comment is funny or not, it certainly isn't "Offtopic".
Don't moderate down just because something offends your sensibilities or clashes with your opinions, please.
This post is offtopic, you may label it as such, if you like. But please at least consider what I've said.
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"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master."
Well, it's been a long time since I've been in school, so I can't say what's a "reasonable" policy for computer hacking these days.
I did break into the school computer when I was in high school ... they caught me about six weeks till the end of the semester. My "punishment" was getting kicked out of my computer class, which ultimately meant being short credits for completion. My alternative was to pay for access to a computer at the local community college and finish my assignments there, which I did.
At the same time, I can tell you I felt really, really empty inside. If there was *one* thing I was good at, it was computers. To have that taken away from me, and to become an outcast even in that realm was pretty disorienting ... perhaps even crushing. At the same time, I suppose they could have been a lot meaner.
Now, this kid was apparently a rising star in a number of other activities, and I'm not sure why he wouldn't have simply funnelled his efforts toward another hobby for a little bit, and come back to computers a bit later.
I'm really saddened that such a bright youngster decided to take his life over what appears to be a minor infraction. I can honestly say I don't begrudge the school district one bit. I think the initial sting of punishment is probably a good thing, so long as it is followed up with guidance.
I have read with great interest what other slahdotters think about this and it seems that noone has so far questioned the belief system which makes a kid think that it is better to be dead than in jail.
From reading the article it sounds as though the kid was a bit of a classic over achiever, violin, tae kwon do, programming. But from what I have read, he was getting Cs and Ds at school. Maybe he was not being stimulated at school and that explains the low results from an obviously gifted child. I would suspect that his parents are very pushy. You don't do martial arts, violin and all the rest of it unless your parents are the pushy type.
I suspect that if he was trying to change his results to stave off his parents. It sounds like his parents had built a shrine to him and he was afraid to let them down. The fear of failure and disgrace can be very strong when all you have known is success and praise. He seems to have built his values round success and not been aware or able to comprehend that life is full of successes and failures. Everyone has failures and that if it goes wrong, you can't just stop the game and start again.
Anyway, that's my take on the situation. I know I felt in a very similar way when I was that age, but no way would I have hanged myself.
You call me a pedant? I prefer the term "correct"
I mean, seriously. How incompetent are the IT losers working at the school district that they've been hacked several times?
I don't mean to offend anyone when I say this, but how many competent IT people are going to be working for a public school salary?
I worked at a high school teaching AP Computer Science for six years.
The IT guys that maintain the servers get paid around $15 an hour TOPS. Turnover is tremendous. Most applicants are fresh paper MCSE's that just want enough experience to get a real job that pays twice as much.
This is for a large five high school, thirty elementary school district in north-west Phoenix, Arizona.
I actually overhead one idiot IT guy brag to a bunch of AP students that his NT server was so bullet proof that it was unhackable. I NEVER say that to my students, in fact I tell them that there are problems in the network, and to know that if they want to hack, let me sit next to them and work with the IT department to help things.
High school districts are swamped. Since they don't get the money they need, administrators have to make rash decisions like this based on suggestions from underpaid unhappy IT departments.
If you want to make a difference, then vote for state legislators that will give more money for school districts. Otherwise, put your kids in private schools.
Fear of lawsuits keeps people from doing all kinds of things that are truly in the public interest, like exposing the abuses of the creators of censorware block-lists. It's neither reasonable nor fair to demonize school administrators for buckling under those same forces; our duty as citizens is to get rid of these abuses of the legal system so people are no longer taking risks when they try to do the right thing.
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Having 50 karma is an itchy feeling; I know I'll get
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
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Having 50 karma is an itchy feeling; I know I'll get
Scientists restrict study to entire physical universe; creationist
I don't want to seem insensitive, but kids are suspended from school everyday for a variety of reasons and they don't commit suicide. Despite our romantic ideas of hackers being underground heroes, hacking is still a crime and like any other crime needs to be dealt with. They didn't say in the article what he did, but it was probably rather serious to warrant a 10 day suspension. The mother says her child seemed happy and the fault surely lies with the school, but OBVIOUSLY her child wasn't fine if he commited suicide hours after being kicked out of school. Just another example of parents not taking responsibility for their children, I wonder how often she even talked to her kid. Again, children are suspended everyday and they don't harm themselves, yet this poor child decided to take his own life which tells me pretty clearly the kid had issues and the school shouldn't be faulted for doing their job in trying to discipline him.
I posted to
But let's not jump too far into the murky realm of conclusions on this one. Yes, this is tragic, but by the same token ALL suicides are tragic, inasmuch as they represent the depths people can reach.
Personally, I don't think too much emphasis should be placed on the "hacking" component of this event. Realistically, should one replace the action in question ("hacking", as it were) with anything else "criminal" (and I cringe at the use of the term "hack" in that sense), such as breaking into the school library, the end result could very well be the same.
This youth was troubled, no doubt, and probably terrified of the concept of going to jail more than anything else. I DO need to point out my suspicion that the school system quite possibly went entirely too far in the administration of mental abuse in this case, using fear tactics in the hopes of "making an example of him."
Reminds me of when I was 13, and got nabbed accessing some stuff I "shouldn't have" on my junior high network. Funny how differently I was treated, tho... they actually asked for my help in sealing up some holes.
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Let me just state up front that anyone compelled to take their own life is obviously in a state of pain and suffering, whether that be explicit and consciously felt, or subdued and controlled to the point of being out of touch with those feelings. This is a sad story.
However ...
I'm always highly suspicious of these kinds of stories. I think it's difficult at best to draw straight lines between two points in a person's psyche, and I think it's pretty obvious that the decision to take one's life is typically rooted in what is usually a complex configuration of personality traits, circumstances, perceptions and decisions. It is my opinion that unless you are intimately knowledgable about the configurations of those elements within a person's psychology then you run a really ridiculously high risk of committing any number of logical fallacies when trying to assess their reasons for taking any particular action.
The fallacy of joint effect, for example: One thing is held to cause another when in fact both are the effect of a single underlying cause. It would certainly seem likely that this kid took his own life as the result of a threat of imprisonment, especially since he cited this as the reason. But psychological motivations are frequently difficult to decipher. Did he have a predisposal to perfectionism? Was there parental pressures of unreasonable approval/disapproval? Was he even stable to begin with? And are we to trust any media source with being able to truly get to the bottom of these kinds of questions reliably and without bias towards creating a story that is designed to sell a paper?
I'm not defending the school. I'm just saying that regarding a case like this I don't really know what the hell happened, and most no one else does either. Something is held up to cause another thing when, in fact, they may not be as closely related as the media would purport them to be.
Of course, given how reliable general news sources are, this probably isn't a concern ...
About a month ago I saw a Biography on Steve Wozniak.
They talked about hacking he did in high school. One time he broke into the schools computer and changed all the times the bells rang.
Another time he left a box which had a ticking sound in it. The principal ended up rushing the thing into the middle of the football field thinking it was a bomb. The person saying this was laughing about it
If he did this stuff today how many YEARS of prison would he get?
Why would someone kill themselves? When you're in that situation, all the "wrong" reasons make perfect sense. All you jerks who have no sympathy, you should understand at least that some people weren't born and raised like you. I almost hear people saying "good, serves him right"... Lack of sympathy says it all. You are a fascist if you feel no pity for the poor kid.
We (the Rich and Powerful) DO NOT want you people equiping yourselves with skills to stay independant of us. Why do you think we spend so much money trying to keep you from doing just that?
Don't go crying for this "criminal", either. He broke the law, just like you have, and luckily he was young and impressional enough that we were able to damage his psychie. Mark my words, give up your criminal activities before we advance this brain washing stuff to the point that we can get adults suicidal in minutes.
Sen. Hon. Richard K R Alston
Sen. Hon. Richard K R Alston
Australian Federal Minister for Communications, Information Technology
I'd be interested to hear what exactly it was that got him suspended. The fact that the administration is being tight-lipped about the details suggests they're trying to cover their asses. Regardless, it's a shame to hear something like this...
Anybody else notice that the school was very careful NOT to say what he supposedly did. If he had done something serious, the school would have plastered that everywhere in its own defense. If his "crime" comes out I bet it will be very minor.
Why can't we have mandatory counseling in cases like this? Instead of just a suspension and threat of jail time, why can't these kids (especially at the age of 13) be put into a program where they must meet with an adult faculty member to discuss what they did wrong and such? Why suspend them for a long period of time and threaten them with jail when they can teach them right from wrong like any _school_ should do?
Obviously, some people can take things the wrong way. I hope that in the future, schools will be a little more sensitive to things like this and not be quick to push the panic button and make it as if the kid committed murder or something.
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" Being so smart as to know what he was doing, one must wonder how he didn't already know it was illegal, or at least morally and ethically wrong, and really, being 13 is no excuse - if he's smart enough to hack into the school district's systems, then he should know the ramifications of being caught, and the likelyhood of it happening."
Pardon me, but bullshit.
First, technical ability and ethics do not walk in lockstep. My daughter knows how to pick up a plastic pail but clearly doesn't understand that it's not ethical to whack me over the head with it.
Second, you don't even know what he did. Judging from what both sides are saying (or rather, not saying) it could be anything from running nmap to sneaking in and looking around, to changing or altering grades. Since you don't know the variables, you're calling whitehat and blackhat activities morally equivalent.
My .02,
My
Limekiller
"13-year-olds ARE NOT ADULTS. As tang has said here, you just aren't fully reasonable. Not to mention that you can't drive, you can't vote, and you can't do 34092 other things that "adults" can do. So why the fsck does our society persist in trying people as young as 13 as adults? I certainly don't condone what some of them have done, but this is setting a ridiculous double standard. Are they adults or not?"
I have to admit that this has baffled me for a long time, along with the 18-to-die, 21-to-drink rule (but your example is far more contrasting), and I think you've put it well. I don't really understand how we can have juvenile laws when we (arbitrarily?) discard them based on the convenience or heinous nature of the crime. Admittedly, I'm not adding much, just agreeing.
"Am I the only Slashdotter who is sick and tired of losing 9000 karma points every time they moderate?"
Recently I was accused of being a Karma Whore, which I thought was rather funny since I tended to not post to preserve hard-earned karma. This got me thinking about the nature of the beast and ...I really don't care. It's a fucking number. Watch. Here is a link to goatse.cx. I realize that moderation is a useful tool to separate the wheat from the chaff, but in it's current manifestation on slashdot, it's a Herd Mentality Indicator/No Life Outside Slash hybrid meter, nothing more. Do you really think I could post a thoughtful, pro-MS piece w/out being branded "flamebait"? Unfortunately not. My only advice (which I realize you didn't ask for) is to ignore the thing. Let the people interested in exerting control over ideas do their thing. Just post your thoughts and your ideas. Personally, I'm sick and tired of what the Slashdot readership has, largely, become. Guess what -- it's not the editors at fault.
Anyway, thanks for your post.
My .02,
My
Limekiller
We seem to view achievement through a keyhole - we see the honors student or the star quarterback as free-standing goals, but we block out the effects of the pressure to succeed and the sacrifices made. For too many kids, excellence in one area promotes deficiency in another (the brainy kid with no social skills; the footballer who beats up the brainy kid.)
What's missing is that we forget these are just kids and may not have the full set of tools to deal with life (most of the adults I meet don't either). We're not watching "the rest of the kid". There are signs if we open our eyes. Kids don't hang themselves, nor do they shoot each other nor do they exhibit other aberrant behavior without giving some warnings first.
The problem is, we don't recognize those warnings.
This is not a flame, but an encouragement for everyone to look at things from a different angle.
This was a kid who was heavily obsessed with "making the grade." Judging by the fact that he had Hindu parents, who are known for their demanding nature, and by his father's statement that "I worked so hard to bring up good children in a good school district", it seems clear that this child was mercilessly pushed by his parents to succeed at any cost.
As someone else on the board mentioned, he was receiving C's and D's. He probably feared that his parents would regard him as a failure, and that he wouldn't be able to measure up to his brother. He took his own life because, as yet another person mentioned, he had a "screwed value system." He believed that reputation and skill were more important than life itself.
Can we really blame the school administrators in this affair? They did what they should have done - they punished a student who had commited what most people would consider a serious crime. His parents, on the other hand, did not do what they should have done. They pushed him harder and harder to succeed, until all they had left was a body in the cemetary and a box of ribbons.