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Xbox, GameCube Dates Set For Early November
ackthpt writes "According to this Yahoo/Reuters article Nintendo will rollout the GameCube (~$199) on Nov. 5, with Microsoft's Xbox ($299) following on Nov. 8th. Just in time for the season of giving. Sony's PS2 ($299) will still be in the hunt. Is there enough of a market for all three? With Microsoft planning to spend $500 million in advertising, over 18 months, expect them to make a serious attempt to be a survivor when the dust settles, unlike Sega, which has given up selling game machines to focus on titles."
*ahem* Except OpenGL doesn't handle sound, keyboard, mouse, joystick, or force-feedback. But yeah, aside from that, they're just the same.
Lately I haven't had any trouble finding Playstation 2's in stores, and I'm not even interested in buying one. I have yet to ever see one in a store like Best Buy, but places like Funcoland, Target and Wal-Mart seem to always have at least one.
I always have better luck going to the more unusual game sellers, it seems like everyone else just knows about Best Buy and Babbages.
Yeah, I see. It's a ripoff of the chromey old Silicon Graphics logo.
Actually, a significant portion of kernel changes can be made closed-source as well, due to Linus's agreement to permit closed-source kernel modules. Not that there is much incentive to keep such things closed-source -- the value-add, as said, is almost always in the applications -- but it's possible.
Your proprietary toasting software is an application, and you have every bit as much right to keep the algorithm private as Loki has to keep to themselves the source to their Quake 3 port. The Linux kernel's modified GPL requires only code statically linked to the kernel to be licensed under GPL-compatible terms; applications and kernel modules are entirely exempt.
Thus, no matter what happens with game consoles, free software isn't going away soon.
I work for an embedded Linux company. It pays the bills quite nicely, and I get to write (and port, and bugfix) free software all day. WooHOO!
The advantages of open source apply here not to the end user of the embedded product, but to the folks developing that product -- permitting them increased flexibility in OS vendors, and lots of Other Good Stuff which eventually trickles down to the consumer in terms of more choice and lower prices.
M$ sees the end of the constant upgrade cycle for consumers. I just built my in-laws a box that'll last them 6-8 years, and which can be component upgraded if for some reason they find an 800 Athlon or 256 MB to be insufficient for logging into the mainframe at my mother-in-law's employer. They'll never have to upgrade past 98SE for the life of that box. Hell, the box I'm typing this on at work runs *95*. After 2000/XP, M$ had better find another cash cow.
XBox is currently the #1 contender, and
Don Negro
Don Negro
Perl 6 will give you the big knob. -- Larry Wall
costco has pallet fulls, Best Buy has a plethora, even during christmas Target had them.
~^~~^~^^~~^
Actually, you are incorrect. Both Sony and Nintendo have incorporated in the United States. Therefore, they are free to give as much money as they want to Georgy and company as long as the money was earned in the US and funneled in from Japan.
Your argument is illogical.
PC-DOS in 1981 was what you bought when you got a new computer.
The only other alternative was CP/M-86 which sold for $175. Is that what you wish to compare Windows 2000 pricing with?
Or would you rather compare pricing to Microsoft Xenix? I couldn't find data on Xenix, except that a Tandy computer using a MC68000 running Xenix around that time period was $5,000. I imagine the OS was probably $500 or so, considering later pricing by SCO for similar product.
You'll be happy to note that the OS costs about the same as a CPU in a computer, actually slightly less.
Mass production costs may be dissimilar, but then so is after-sale product support which favors the CPU that nobody ever calls about.
It seems even by your own criteria that you disagree with your assertions.
Well actually given in 1981 PC-DOS cost $60 when purchased with an IBM PC, and today Windows 2000 costs around $125 when purchased with a PC...
The prices are basically equivalent when factoring in inflation.
SSX is awesome. So is sky oddysee. Gauntlet Dark legends is also cool. I am also getting a gamecube, but I think you're a troll as far as the ps2 goes.
Vermifax
Vermifax
Logout
The nes was sold at a loss so was the snes.
Vermifax
Vermifax
Logout
Sony has been rumored to lower prices for the xbox event. I expect them to include the ethernet/modem adaptor as part of the package. "Yeah, it uses aol too, the xbox doesn't"
-- dieman - Scott Dier
After MS had run DR-DOS out of town, MS raised the wholesale price of MS-DOS from $6 to $24 within 6 months.
As for your economies of scale thing, I think you need to take a look at MS' pre-tax profit margins over the past 15 years. You'll see that their pre-tax profit margins have gone up, not down. This would mean that their unit costs are dropping or their prices are raising (or some combination of the two). You are absolutely right about the prices of business software over the past 6 years--prices have come down. However, that would indicate that Microsoft's unit costs have dropped even further!
If you don't believe that Microsoft is selling the XBox as a loss leader, you're fooling yourself. Microsoft has already admitted they will be selling the hardware at a small loss. Their licensing fees are *much* more reasonable than Sony's, so they aren't intending to make it up with software. This indicates they are doing it to gain market share, after which the ratio of unit prices to unit costs will rise so that MS makes a profit.
Now, IMHO, none of this is really bad per se. It's the work of a free economy. However, such behaviour must be kept in check in order to prevent monopolies. In that case, the original poster is quite right to be afraid of a potential monopoly for MS in this arena.
--Be human.
You do realize that what MS is doing is not illegal, right? I mean, unless they are determined to be using predatory pricing for their product, it's not illegal for a company that has a monopoly in one area to introduce a new product in another area as a loss leader. And, $299 for a product where most competitors are =$199 is not predatory pricing.
This is not "like microsoft begining to sell its own computer". It *is* microsoft beginning to sell its own computer. However, there's nothing illegal with this. In order for it to be illegal, MS must have predatory pricing, or must wield its first monopoly in such a manner as to extend its monopoly into a new arena. The DoJ had a case concerning Windows (MS' existing monopoly) and IE (MS's predatory pricing and use of Windows to extend its monopoly to browsers). It wouldn't stand a chance on this one. At least, not yet.
--Be human.
How is this informative exactly? DirectX handles that stuff yes, but Direct3D is the topic, and it only does 3d, which guess what, is what OpenGL is for. wow, way to go mods!
What a pile of utter crap. The video cards aren't "sharing" system resources with Windows : They're self contained computers by themselves (pretty much), and any modern PC can push commands to the video card faster than it can process them.
The point is..MS is just peicing together stuff and not really developing their own HW
This "point" is silly. MS has been the primary driving force behind the rapid acceleration in video technology (it started with 3dfx' Glide actually which pretty much kicked the market into gear). I'm going to presume your post was a troll. Why am I feeding the trolls?
Here in the San Francisco Bay Area, PlayStation 2's are still sadly VERY hard to find in a retail store. I've checked CompUSA, Fry's Electronics, Best Buy, Electronics Boutique, KB Toys, and several other places--I've never seen any PS2's on display for sale even now. At least for me, the only way I can get one is to order it online. :-(
My guess is that Microsoft may have as many as 1 million consoles available for sale within a few weeks of its November 8, 2001 launch date. This will avoid the shortages that has plagued Sony since the PS2 shipped in the first place.
Raymond in Mountain View, CA
And zero PS2 consoles available to play them on...
:-(
You are so correct.
Here in the San Francisco Bay Area, I've checked CompUSA, Fry's Electronics, Best Buy, Electronics Boutique, Toys 'R Us, and KB Toys--NONE of them have PlayStation 2 machines stocked on the floor. The only way you can get one is to order it online.
If both Microsoft and Nintendo can have 800,000-1,000,000 units of their respective game consoles for sale within two weeks after their November launch dates, this could hit Sony especially hard, unless Sony is willing to sacrifice the Japanese and European markets and do nothing but build PS2's for the US market and have 3-4 million PS2's available for sale by November 1, 2001 in order to blunt the introduction of GameCube and Xbox.
Raymond in Mountain View, CA
Having tried both Dreamcast and PlayStation 2 controllers, I think the DC controller feels too unwieldly (no thanks to having to fit both Rumble Pack and the VMU unit) and the PS2 controller--while otherwise excellent--feels a bit too small to be useful.
You forget that Microsoft's excellent Usability Lab was heavily used to Xbox development, so as a result you get a controller that comfortably fits into your hand without feeling oversized like the DC controller.
Raymond in Mountain View, CA
Yes, but what has been publicly shown so far in regards to Xbox is absolutely stunning, to say the least.
I think what Microsoft has in its favor is the fact that if you can write Windows 2000 programs and write for the DirectX 8.0x API, you're already most of the way there to writing an Xbox game. And Microsoft has sent out several thousand Xbox development kits to just about every major game manufacturer in the world, including most of the important game manufacturers in Japan.
One thing that Microsoft did with Xbox was to use its excellent Usability Lab to come up with an excellent design for its machine. MS even bothered to develop two different game controllers, one for larger hands in the Western world and one for smaller hands in Asia.
Microsoft also has the advantage that both EA Sports and Sega are going to release Xbox games. This will mean competition for sports games and that means we'll have top-notch quality sports games on Xbox.
Raymond in Mountain View, CA
Maybe the Xbox will fail like the XFL...jk
(lame I know)
Here in Europe the PS/2 is no big success because it is very expensive (over $400.-). I see it sitting in big piles in electronic stores since February.
-- bmp System Support - Vienna, Austria
I sort of expect a Linux site to naysay the Xbox merely because of the Microsoft logo but you guys are complete jackasses. For some reason slashdot at large thinks that people will only buy a single console and that there are 50 people who do indeed buy consoles and if you sell your console to all of these people your competitors will go out of business. There are MILLIONS of fucking people in the scope of the console market and they all buy different systems for different reasons. There is lots and lots of room for multiple consoles in someone's house, they're fairly small in fact. How many of you have a Dreamcast sitting next to a PSX or PS2? I would bet plenty of you do. The market is large and one console won't dominate simply because it has a particular logo on it. Microsoft is no more evil than Nintendo; ask the UltraHLE folk or all the developers that tried to produce NES games but had cart quantities tightly controlled by Nintendo.
Merely on their technical merits the GC and Xbox are badass boxes. As always the games available for particular consoles will spell victory or defeat. Nintendo has Pokemon which is still immensely popular and alone can garner nearly a million console purchases. Microsoft is going to be competing more with the PS2 in terms of audience than the Nintendo which has always and probably always will be aimed toward the sub-14 crowd. Besides Pokemon Nintendo has their various other franchises like Donkey Kong and Mario, they've been at this for a very long time. Microsoft is still looking mostly for ports of PC titles or spin-offs of PC titles. Alot of kids with a fair amount of purchasing power are going to strip GameCubes off the shelves because of Nintendo's franchises and Nintendo Power which always manages to hype up their new boxes. Microsoft's going to have a marketing advantage and alot more exposure to the general populace. Time and games will tell if Microsoft is going to stand a chance against Sony and the PS2. Ken Kusagi(sp) is pretty hardcore about the Playstation as it's his baby. I don't know if the Xbox's manager is quite as commited as he is. Oh yeah, don't forget all that Japan is cuckoo for cocoa puffs and game consoles. Nintendo's got an enormous user base there and Microsoft doesn't (w/ respect to gaming).
I'm a loner Dottie, a Rebel.
Dang, where do you live? The EB down the street has a stack of ten of them in its window. You can buy it from KB online. No bundle.
Q.
Which is exactly why I, as a parent, am planning to give my money to Nintendo this Christmas. My kids are right square in the middle of Nintendo's target demographic.
Also, as an adult gamer, I tend to prefer the Nintendo titles anyway. Mario has been good since the very first Super Mario Bros. hit the arcades. Nintendo's games are cutesy, sure. But a lot of them have a fair amount of depth to them, and for the most part they're just plain fun to play. I don't need a bazillion different titles of mediocre quality, just a few good ones.
Chelloveck
Chelloveck
I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
Given the specification of the X-Box, there isn't much that it couldn't do to satisfy the needs of Joe Normal in Consumerland, particularly with a few choice hardware add-ons.
With it's low price, Microsoft name and 500 million in advertising behind it, couldn't it replace the PC in the majority of homes in the next few years? Then everybody in the world will be using a Microsoft-controlled hardware platform, obviously running Microsoft-controlled software, and the die-hards who insist on a "real" computer will be so far and few between as to not really count.
As for Linux ports to the X-Box, who says there won't be some restrictive licensing that makes such a move illegal? Or clever hardware that makes the box shut down if the monthly Microsoft licence fee isn't paid?
I mean, why is Microsoft getting into hardware all of a sudden? The last time they did that was with the Microsoft Mouse, a move needed to make mice more readily available and their GUI more practical. When these guys build hardware I'm suspicious that they are trying to manipulate the software market!
</paranoia>
The XBox will ship on November 8th, just as Windows XP will ship October 25th. Microsoft has been pretty consistent when they give actual days. Prior slippage has been mainly when they gave a quarter or season ("Windows XP will be released in Fall 2001").
Microsoft gave an exact date for the release of Win2k, and hit it. They gave a release date for Office 2k, and hit it. They gave a release date for Office XP, and are on their way to hitting it (Office XP RTM'ed a month ago, and will be in stores end of May). They've given a release date for Windows XP, and now for XBox, and there's little reason to expect them to slip.
This whole anti-Microsoft stuff gets annoying and monotonous, after a while. Regardless of politics or anything else, the XBox is going to be a Good Thing (tm) for the game industry -- It'll basically take up the slack left by Sony with their dismal PS2.
And of course, megacorporation Sony, which has its fingers in many different pies and is also taking an average of $100-$150 hit on the PS2 (or more, if they drop the price to $199), is not dumping. Right. Clue: As much as you'd like to believe it, not everything Microsoft does is monopoly-oriented.
Gaming consoles are a loss-leader market. Everybody takes a loss, not just the monopolist trying to drive the little guys away. And history proves that entry into the market is relatively easy -- build a good console, get developers on your side. If XBox were to somehow become the sole existing console (not likely), and then increased prices as a good monopolist does (doubly unlikely, considering Microsoft's past history of NOT RAISING PRICES once they've attained a monopoly situation), new competitors would sprout up quicker than you can say, "Help me, DOJ, I can't compete!"
The XBox is also getting a Metal Gear Solid game (MGS X, I think it's called, not MGS 2). I haven't seen any screenshots yet, but considering the hoops developers have to jump through to get decent looking games on the PS2, expect mind-blowing graphics and gameplay from the XBox version (which just happens to be much easier to program, and extremely more powerful than the PS2 ...).
Yes, but MS is probably losing more than any of the others. Early reports are that MS will lose about $150/box. I'd also heard that licencing fees for XBox games were a lot lower than those for PS2 and Game Cube; I don't know if this is true, though.
When MS plans to LOSE 3-4 BILLION DOLLARS, you know there's something up their sleeves. Dumping is their strategy; don't be fooled.
-jon
Remember Amalek.
This is untrue. MS has raised prices, both relative to the cost of the entire system and in absolute dollars. Or are you going to tell me that MS DOS 2.0 cost the same as Windows 2000 in both constant and inflated dollars?
Before you consider that an absurd comparison, compare the cost of hard drive space or CPU speed or graphics cards over time. Somehow it's expected that the hard drives and CPUs get cheaper as they do more, but the OS doesn't?
MS has raised prices as they've gained a monopoly, and only an apologist or someone who is completely ignorant of economics couldn't see that.
-jon
Remember Amalek.
There are TWO groups of people who MS can screw, game developers and end users. Say MS doesn't raise the end-user cost much as they get monopoly position in the console industry. They can still drastically raise the license fees they charge game developers. And, in classic MS fashion, they can just deliver a clone of the game developer's best title (or hire away their best programmers) if the developer tells them to piss off.
-jon
Remember Amalek.
The prices are basically equivalent when factoring in inflation.
You're figuring at the bundling cost. Figure at the stand-alone cost, instead. MS gives a price break with bundling to ensure that no one else can get a toe in the door.
-jon
Remember Amalek.
-jon
Remember Amalek.
-jon
Remember Amalek.
Are you talking in constant dollars (without inflation)? Because if you are, you're wrong. And if you're not, you are comparing apples to oranges.
That's an easy one... the cost of manufacturing hardware has dropped dramatically... the cost of producing memory, hard drives, you name it, has gone down considerably. The cost of good programmers, however, has gone up. That's why you don't see the difference in cost.
The cost for mass-producing software is far, far lower than the cost for mass producing hardware. And the cost for good electrical engineers has gone up just as much as the cost for good programmers. Who do you think designs all this hardware, the Firmware Fairy?
Six years ago, the cost of Word and Wordperfect was some $350. Today, you can get Word, Works, Streets and Trips and Encarta for less than $100
Bullshit. I've got a copy of MacConnection right here. The cost for Word 2001 (in 2001 dollars) is $360. Gee, that's $10 more than the price you named, not even counting 6 years of inflation. Excel 2001 is also $360. Office 2001 for Mac (which includes Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and Entourage) is $449. I'm quite sure the PC prices are just as high.
Please don't try to make up facts to support your position.
-jon
Remember Amalek.
MS' plan is to drive Sony and Nintendo out of the console business. They don't expect to make any money on XBox 1.0.
When XBox 2.0 comes out, and there are no other consoles, then watch MS jack up the prices on consoles and royalties.
Illegal? Sure. But do you seriously expect Dubya to get the Justice Dept. to prosecute MS' predatory behavior against two FOREIGN companies, esp. when MS can legally give donations to the GOP and Sony/Nintendo can't?
-jon
Remember Amalek.
So the xbox comes out on the eighth, I bet the first xbox virus comes out on the ninth.
And how long will it take before you boot up your internet capable xbox and see the picture from http://goatse.cx and a message reading "j00 were 0wnzed." instead of whatever the hell normally happens.
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"I'm not gonna say anything inspirational, I'm just gonna fucking swear a lot"
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Moderators, for the millionth time, could you please stop wasting your time and points modding down trolls and first posts when there are still interesting and important things at score 1 that need to be modded UP in order to get noticed?
At least wait until you've modded up a few things before you mod down anonymous coward "first post" posts that are already at 0...
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"I'm not gonna say anything inspirational, I'm just gonna fucking swear a lot"
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Are you a fscking idiot? You really need to re-read that post. He said they are GOING TO TRY to get a monopoly in the game console market.
For the love of all things great and small why are there people stupider than me on the earth? I have lost faith in the human race again.
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"I'm not gonna say anything inspirational, I'm just gonna fucking swear a lot"
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PS2 shortage in NZ was well and truly over when it was released. Recommended retail was an obscene NZ$1000 or US$400. I have not seen one PS2 retailer in NZ who has said they were out of stock. Me, well I got one for NZ$750 (or US$300) duty free, and including a 5% discount. I got a deal by NZ standards :)
"I just can't sit while people are saying nonsense in a meeting without saying it's nonsense" J Watson, Sci Am 288:(4)51
I give it about 2-3 months before people developers realize that the machine is so much like a PC that they can develop games for it without paying any royalties to microsoft. Just watch.
Once linux is on the X-Box why would game developers need to pay royalties for Microsoft's libraries and OS anymore? Write their games for linux, and distribute the games themselves. Cut MS out of the royalty loop.
So, when Sony drove Sega out of the console business, and toppled Nintendo it's ok because its not MS?
They came in and launced a huge marketing campaign, and took a loss on their hardware. Signed exclusive deals with developers, and continued to market throughout the life of the product.
Nintendo was toppled and now is trying to catch up, which they probably won't, and Sega's out of the business.
Then they release their PS2, with a $300 price tag, a lot of folks paid well over $500 during the christmas season to get one. Games are significantly more expensive as well.
But MS wanting to the the same thing is worse?
Eric Engstrom and Chris Phillips, the "inventors" of DirectX, have left Microsoft to start a Linux company called Chromium. Their first product is ChromeLinux/WebServer, a high-performance fork of the Apache web server. One of their developers has recently surfaced on the linux-kernel list with a web server called X15, which matches Tux's kernel-space performance in user-space!
cpeterso
Which is exactly why I, as a parent, am planning to give my money to Nintendo this Christmas. My kids are right square in the middle of Nintendo's target demographic.
:)
I hope your kids don't have internet access. Otherwise, you may have ruined Christmas.
--
InstantCool
I'm getting a Game Cube.
PS2 has shite games,
Xbox will have pathetic buggy rubbish on it - it is MS, how can I trust them at all? (To MS apologists - it is reasonable to base future expectations on past experiences. None of my MS related experiences have been enjoyable.)
They both try to be DVD players too...sucky ones.
Game Cube looks like it will have a lot of good games out pretty quickly, and it does that Game boy advance link up thing.
Ah well. Dreamcast had an amazing catalogue of games but fell due to weak marketing. Hope Nintendo can do better.... they have got Pokemon!
considering M$ wants to replace MP3 with Windows media I don't think so
http://Lenny.com
Most video rental places also rent console games and already have limited space for the current systems (PS/PS2/N64/SNES). How willing are they going to be to dedicate _more_ space for these new systems? I've read that game publishers have to pay some chains for shelf space. Perhaps the same may soon hold true for rental shops...
Ever heard of OpenGL? Without it, every games designer would have to write their own routines forom the video drivers all the way up to the high level APIs.
DirectX is not original or magic, and the idea certianlly didn't originate at Microsoft. (Here's a hint, generic highlevel API's are almost as old as software its self.) It wasn't the first and it certianly won't be the last programming API. Hell, DirectX's sole goal is to tie your hands to Windows. Where's DirectX for the Mac, for Linux, for Irix, for anyone else?
Concidering the loads of cash microsoft has on hand, I think they care more about flooding & holding the market than about making a profit. They can afford to spend whatever they want on marketing and r&d and they could probably also give the things away for free (assuming masses didn't take free ones and only those who will buy them now took one for free).
As a game developer, I feel uniquely qualified to ask just what brand of crack you are smoking.
Seriously - It's taken years for Direct3D to basically adopt OpenGL with different names for the same functions. That's an oversimplification, but not much of one. If MS had adopted OpenGL and stayed the course, hardware/software would be much farther along today.
every store in my area has a pile of PSX2's... (NOT PS/2's,.. those can only be found at Ford)
they've had them for a couple months now.. it's been very easy to obtain.
so you're saying if sony had delayed launch until they had a big supply of them then you'd be happy? god you're stupid.
...dave
Think different? I'd be happy if most people would just think...
None of which the average console user would care to play, mind you. I mean seriously, given the average learning curve of most of the better PC games (Deus Ex, Black & White, custom Q3 bindings anyone?) how many of the drunken fratboy/10-year-old market do you think will take interest? I seriously wonder how well a lot of the newer titles would fly at >640x480 too.
By the end of 2002 I estimate that over 50% of released titles wil be playable on the Xbox.
I'd believe it, but playable != prefferable. The Sega Genesis is an excellent case study, very few Super Nintendo games ported to it well. I can't imagine that the gigantic bloated crap monster that is DirectX is doing it any favors in the performance arena either.
Wow, this is textbook trolling / karma whoring. But whatever... I like the challenge.
What I want to know is, why does free software have enemies in Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, etc.? I mean, granted, what those companies do as businesses are against the tenets of free software, and yes they do have products that directly compete with free software products, but how does that make them the enemies?
I mean, can't business and freedom of information co-exist in the world? Are these companies doing anything to stop the thoughts and expressions of free software advocates? Sony didn't kill Indrema, lack of funding did. Putting aside Indrema's death as a business, no one has been prevented at this point from introducing a free software based game console system. Anyone can do it if they want to, and if they have the proper resources at hand.
The essay I'm replying to does not state how the success of game consoles by these companies equates to "a crushing blow against freedom". It's simply a business. I don't think their business infringes on anyone's freedom. No one is suppressed because Sony sells a lot of games. I just want to state this not just as a reply to the essay, but to warn the rest of the free software world that declaring war on Microsoft and the rest of the evil empire type companies is illogical. Microsoft doesn't threaten free software... it's lack of interest that threatens free software... it's indifference... it's stupidity that is the threat. If people know about free software, the battle has been won... people will have had a choice, seen the choice, and someone will have expressed themselves to the world against the tyranny of anyone whose best interests is to stop them. Microsoft doesn't attack free software projects as operations and try to stop them from ever appearing... it simply tries to sell its own product as the better alternative, no matter how much spin they put on the situation. So why try to fight them? They're never going to kill free software, they never have tried and they aren't currently trying as well.
Therefore, if you're going to be an advocate, stop picking fights with people you disagree with and start presenting a better argument. That's how you win debates. Not with bitchslapping.
Wrong!
MS-Office now lists for OVER $450 dollars! The individual pieces of Office (that you mention) are priced in kind with Office - that is to say MORE expensive than they used to be.
The price is going up.
(You only get cheaper prices by getting it bundled by an OEM with your new computer. The upgrade? How does that fit the discussion unless you're trying to distract from the real point that M$FT is consistently increasing their prices as their competitions disappears?)
Thats right. When XBox ships you will _not_ be able to say "the games on my PC look better because my video card is better". It wont be. THe games _might_ look better but that would only be because of piss-poor programming on the part of the xbox programmers. Or the more obvious: TV's flat suck. (well, the XBR400's are good, but still no monitor)
It seems that one of the biggest setbacks for the N64 was that developers didn't want to design games for it. They felt it was too complicated a system and thats why the majority of its games are made by Nintendo (hence the kiddy-feel).
"We here at Nintendo decided to focus on solving this issue by creating the NINTENDO GAMECUBE with the purpose of realizing the highest level of performance and to enhance the productivity of software development. This is Nintendo's vision of what a next generation game machine should do.
Instead of going for the highest possible performance, which does not contribute to software development, our idea was to create a developer-friendly next generation TV game machine that maintained above-standard capabilities.
It seems Nintendo is trying to woo game developers as well as gamers. After all, you can have a great, state of the art gaming system (I.E. N64) but if you don't have developers willing to make games for your system, what have you got?
No man is an island, But if you take a bunch of dead guys and tie them together, they make a pretty good raft.
Sure, it's a hefty system- it's basically a dressed-up PC with some custom hardware, but its lineage is showing: it has a cooling fan. Cooling fans may be tolerable to many people for traditional computers, but I can't think of any other consumer electronics device that needs one. Imagine spending the big bucks on your home entertainment system, then being required to turn the volume up a notch to drown out the fan. Not in _my_ living room, thanks very much.
On geological time scales, it's always almost Friday.
That, and the fact that normal TVs have really crappy resolution.
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
How about Mac OS X for $129, which includes Mac OS 9.1 and developer tools?
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
If MS had adopted OpenGL and stayed the course, hardware/software would be much farther along today
in a word: bullshit. what has gotten hardware and software to the point it's at today is the games. it's the games that push the hardware, not MS's adoption, it's the games that push the operating system and the libraries, not MS's adoption. and if you really think about it, it was The Carmak's company that pushed harder than anyone. and they've used OpenGL since '96, noless.
Please think critically about this. Why? Because it costs Sony very little. Do they have to contribute anything at all to "Open Source" because of this? You might find an example, but it won't add up to much. And if the PS2 + a Linux expansion kit (or the $$$ development kit) seems more cost-effective than a basic Duron or Celeron system then you haven't looked too carefully.
Open Source is being cheerfully used by Sony towards its own demise.
Xbox will probably do some damage in America, but what about Japan? Microsoft's usual solution to this sort of problem is to throw a bunch of money at it, but unless they do something crazy I think they're going to get a serious wake-up call.
Bill Gates did the keynote at the Tokyo Games Show this past March, and apparently he wasn't very well received. Normally, I would take this sort of analysis with a grain of salt, but considering this came from a pro-xbox site I am more inclined to believe it.
magic chefNeither does Direct3d
I'm not going to be pegged as another beta tester for Microsoft.. Dammit, I'm going to wait for XBox SE!
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Just my 2 bits, or half a nibble.
GrBear.
http://cubemedia.ign.com/media/news/image/cube/gcn ewlogo1.jpg
Take a quick glance at it. It looks like a G. Now take a closer look.
it will just be dual bootable like the dual-bootable boxes we use today - remember the same people who will probably be doing the port(s) are probably heavy duty games ..... as I see it the only hope M$ has to keep the box penguin-free is to release such wonderfull games that no one will want to stop playing in order to do the porting .... but to be fair I'd lay even odds that at least one port is already done :-)
Nah - the driving force is $$$ - if anything M$ was pretty late to the table with a useable API, and it hasn't been universeably adopted. If M$ was designing the 3D hardware we would only see one bloated, slow, expensive 3d platform - instead the cut-throat competition of the past few years in the 3d hardware biz has pushed 3d to a low-margin comodity product and has left all of us customers the winners (and really hurt people who sold high-marging 3d stuff like SGI).
What worries me at the moment is that there are really only 2 viable 3D companies and the barrier-to-entry for new ones is getting higher and higher every year (imagine you have to build 3d silicon to compete against nvda/ati - it's going to take 2 years minimum to get b ards to markett - what will you build? remember the compeition already have most of the hard stuff done already and most of their product-to-product changes are incremental - the chances of you shipping a world-beater chip are sadly pretty low). Anyway my main point should one of ati/nvdia stumble and drop out we're screwed performance increase will slow/stop and prices will go up.
BTW 1600x1200 is about the same number of pixels as 1900x1000 - it's just a different aspect ratio - this is a red herring
You'd think people would have learned - loss-leader platforms that run Linux with minor hacking 'sell' well :-)
It's disgusting how much I can't wait for that game. But is it good enough to buy a PS2? I don't know about that.
:)
I'll just mooch off of friends who have the system.
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python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
And, for that matter, neither did any of the other countless quality open source projects/programs out there that cannot be taken away.
The difference is that the "quality open source programs out there" are by and for Joe Hacker, not Joe User. As such, they are arguably technically superior, but things like logical/easy UI design and documentation are given less priority. This is expected, because hacking is more fun than making the UI easy to follow for the novice, or spending hours writing help documents. Also, billion dollar companies can afford focus groups, and useability tests, to make their apps easier to use.
Linux hasn't failed as a gaming platform.
It has, and it will, until the novice user does not have to jump through a million hoops to get X working, then to get openGL working, then to get the soundcard working, ad nauseum.
if you expect an operating system of its nature to have even 25% of the library of games dependent on Windows and its proprietary gaming graphics/sound/input/etc API.
Ask yourself if the average guy who just wants to play the latest title gives a damn about proprietary vs. open standards.
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python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
My guess is that they are not out to make a quick buck. They want to establish themselves in the arena, and get a few quality games out there so people can have a reason to buy the system. They'll reap the rewards down the line.
It's scary when a company is so rich it can just dive into whatever they want, spend wads of cash on advertising and R&D, etc., just so they can have their grip on everything.
This is sort of like what they did with the IE bundling, and soon, the MSN messenger bundling (with windows XP).
And you know what else? No one gives a damn... scary.
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python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
Microsoft is about to use its monopoly power to introduce a competing platform to play games on.
I have 2 questions:
1) Doesn't capitalism thrive on competition?
2) Isn't Nintendo, at the moment, using its monopoly power in the portable gaming business as we speak(type)?
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Nicotine free Amish .sig.
Um, inflation would make that 360 LESS than the 350, not pull it in the other direction.
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Nicotine free Amish .sig.
Opensource will just adapt. Guess you hadn't heard about Sony releasing a Linux development platform for the PS2?
Sigs are awesome huh?
Your post would be insightful except for one problem: Microsoft doesn't have a monopoly in the game console market.
Say you're selling a toaster and you want to keep your proprietary toasting algorithm private, but its running on Linux. Can you do that since you are really selling hardware? Or do you have to GPL your software as well?
well seeing as i was at the Applied Computing Conference today and had this very chat with some of the Linux vendors, i'll field this question.
if a hardware company embeds Linux and makes changes to kernel then yes, they have to release the changes under the GPL. however 99% of all value-add is in drivers and application-level software, not in changes to the kernel. as you probably know, drivers and applications can be whatever license they want to be so this isn't a limiting factor in the decision to use Linux. sure the kernel is GPL, but all of the value-add can be closed source.
Linux is taking off like crazy in the embedded market because there are no per-unit royalty fees. this is particularly nice in very high volume applications, as once you get the operating system running you never need to pay another dime! of course Linux still hasn't got the realtime performance of a tried and true RTOS, but it's getting there. the embedded market is definitely somewhere where Linux can shine.
- j
Nintendo Of America is also located in Redmond. If fact Nintendo was in Redmond first.
umm... and where do you live? Antarctica?
Other way around, I think. It sounds like if you live in BFE then for some reason they've got a PS2 for you. If you live in a major city, you're out of luck. I guess that makes sense if they underestimated just how many city dwellers want one.
I haven't gone a big quest, but I generally look out of curiousity for PS2's here in San Diego, and I've yet to find one on the shelf. I, too, refuse to go out of my way for one of these - and while the Xbox won't be on my Christmas list, I agree that they'll sell just fine as long as there is enough to go around.
Wind
I guess I don't see how yet-another-game-console has anything to do with free software. The desktop certainly isn't dead, unless you expect to see secretaries writing documents on an X-box. Of course, it might not be such a bad idea; when you want to delete a word, you aim at it with the joystick and hit the fire button.
...I'd rather think of them as The Weakest Link.
The local Blockbuster probably won't be too happy when X-box game renters start calling in with questions about GPF's or stuttering sound. It just won't be worth it to them for the $2-3 they're charging.
I'd say that someone who ports Linux to X-box, and then buys Loki games to run on it, certainly does count.
Perhaps instead of spending billions on developing and marketing the X-box, Microsoft should put up a 20-line web page with the list of components that will guarantee Windows stability.
Go to www.xbox.com
MS says they'll have between 600k and 800k units
available instores on Nov 8th. What they have on the following days/weeks hasn't been disclosed.
My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily represent those of my employer.
Blame them. ;)
Let's think about this very slowly. $500,000,000 for advertising. Probably anywhere between $50 and $300,000,000 in R&D and god only knows how many billions for production, shipping to stores, etc. Take into account the probability that MS will take a loss on each hardware unit.... that leaves the question, how will they make bookoo bucks? Unless they plan to gouge their developers on royalties, are playing hopeful, a combination of those two or I'm missing something here.
As far as I've seen, MS hasn't done anything illegal or monopolistic with the Xbox so far. While they're obviously using their considerable wealth to make an extremely bold push into a market, they aren't doing anything illegal. Microsoft doesn't have a monopoly in the console area, and its OS monopoly isn't all that helpful for it either. Not many people would question that MS has a monopoly. Dell, compaq, et all won't jump from windows because of the Xbox. First off that just wouldn't make sense. And second, you're right, there is no really viable alternative for an easy switch. But just because MS has a monopoly, doesn't mean the DOJ should expect them to stop doing business. You may not like it, but MS is a business. They sell stuff. That's what they do.
One time I threw a brick at a duck.
People have been saying this for years. It's a fad. Do you REALLY care what powers your toaster?
You really don't need the X-Box to play TuxRacer.
X-Box is a gaming console. Linux is...not. Linux on Dreamcast is just so wildly useful, just as it will be for the XBox...
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I like to watch.
This content of this entire post hinges on the fact that a *CORPERATE ENTITY* is smart enough to think ahead. ::shrug::
From my experience, this is simply not the case. Corperate entities have far too much beauracratic poop to sort through to push any sort of agenda of that nature.
Now if it happens by coincedence...
EveryDNS. Use it. It works.
AC's need not reply
I am not a game developer, but I am a programmer and I know how much work it takes just to get the basic tools in place first before you can even begin to design the application you're going to use them for. I can't imagine how hard it would be to write these games without a layer of abstraction that you can rely on to handle all this for you.
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Please consider making an automatic monthly recurring donation to the EFF
Ever heard of DirectX? Without it, every game designer would have to write their own routines from the video card driver all the way up to high level APIs. I doubt there would be nearly as many 3d games nand/nor would they be as detailed or consistant in quality if the developers had to start from scratch (or even their own libraries) every time. It would distract from the goal of the game design to always have to worry about developing and debugging the underlying 2d or 3d engine. At least this way they can focus on the game and not so much on how to display it.
Sure, if enough effort were put to it, a few more CPU cycles could be squeezed out of the hardware if the game would run without windows, but I think the gain you would get from this would be insignificant compared to the extra development and debugging which would be required to develop it without a standard graphical API. Besides, the CPU isn't where most of the magic is going on nowadays. Most of the work is being done in the video card, and the raw performance you get from it is not dependent on the OS (but it is on the drivers). So it's best to have a set of drivers which have maximized the potential of the video card, so you won't have to figure it out for yourself for every possible video card out there.
Many people may have a bone to pick with Microsoft for some really annoying things, but DirectX was one of their better ideas.
PS: This post is questionable, but I don't give a shit about trolls. I'm not wasting my time playing immature psychology games here. I don't reply here often and I've got better things to do with my life than to sit around and guess if I'm replying to a sincere post or some idiot who needs to go outside and get a life.
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Please consider making an automatic monthly recurring donation to the EFF
Yo if you check out this game, you might agree with me that Nintendo can make some awesome games! GameCube will have awesome games, so will Xbox, so will PS2, so does Dreamcast (Virtua Tennis) and so does Super Nintendo, 2D rules! ScottySocialist
Damn... I never thought of that...you're right... I guess if you're downloading some mod or something you could get bit by a virus. Still, if you're only downloading stuff from the video-game company you might consider yourself safe. I'm going to have to think about this... Thanks for bringing it up
It will not just be Microsoft making games. They have a large list of developers, and should carry automatic hit tiles like Madden and NHL'xx from EA Sports. I believe that MS is doing more than just piecing stuff together, although I think November might be a premature release date. I fully expect with the amount of money they are spending on advertising, the Microsoft name, and some solid 3rd party titles, the X-Box will be very successful!
Microsoft will be using a very tuned down version of their operating system. It won't have all of the things that exist in their multi-purpose operating system that might slow them down. Performance shouldn't be an issue!
...I'll Be able to buy a PS2 :)
Still cant find one anywhere although I can find the games all over the place
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In Soviet Russia, Trojan exploits YOU!
Yeesh.
Curmudgeon Gamer: Not happy
It doesn't have to be that way. Open Source advocated simply need to abandon Linux and create a new OS from scratch with the focus on flashy graphics, gaming, same stability, and an equally cute logo.
There is a very good reason why people use Windows: It's easy to use. Right now, I can't print from my Linux box because the print system is too cryptic. There is nothing for me to drapg and drop; and it doesn't help that I can't browse my local network with something like network neighborhood. When I configured my little brother's computer to print, all I had to do was Add a New Printer, type in the URL, and Windows hooked me up. I didn't even need a driver disk; it downloaded the drivers from the other computer automatically. I must have spent over ten hours trying to figure out what's wrong; my Linux box just decided to stop printing one day when I re-installed Windows (grr) on the server computer. Printing shouldn't have to be and doesn't have to be so hard.
In short, quit complaining about how big and bad Microsoft is. They have so much market for one simple reason: you don't need a computer science degree to make Windows work.
Gaming is a big issue for Linux. Until people can play Quake III on Linux at a reasonable framerate (I have a Voodoo 5 AGP card and Quake runs at about two seconds/frame on my box, but 60 fps on Windows). Hopefully the new improvements in kernel 2.4 and X 4.0 will make gaming feasable, but it is too little too late. Windows has the market not because its nice to develop for, but because the game will actually run nicely.
Besides, Linux processes are weak, they die with one kill! Windows processes are where its at: they never die!!$@#^%$*^%#^%$@^%
Join the Slashcott! Stay away entirely Feb 10 thru Feb 17! Close all tabs to prevent autorefresh!
If you want mp3s.. then buy a $99 Dreamcast. There are mp3 players out for DC.. just burn a CD with the mp3 software and all the mp3s you want.
check it out --> dc mp3 player
oh yeah.. don't forget about all the dc emulators too --> emulators
I wouldn't worry so much about Microsoft taking over the world with their new toy, most of the public will assume it's another game console for kids and leave it alone... besides, what are the odds that it'll actually work as advertised? Have they ever made something that did? (Ok, besides DOS 3.3, which rocked the house).
People shape laws. Not the other way around.
Everyone has been saying that XBox will be better for most (atleast for those of us that read /.) because Nintendo will be targeting the midget market. Have any of you looked at the titles being announced at E3...they are definitly starting to target the late teens, early 20 market. Here are a few examples:
Super Smash Bros Melee, NBA Courtside 2002, Raven Blade, Wave Race Blue Storm, Eternal Darkness, Metroid Prime, Star Wars Rogue Leader: Rogue Squadron II, Zelda, Mario Kart, 1080 Degree Snowboarding 2, Madden NFL Football, SSX Snowboarder, FIFA Soccer, Resident Evil Zero, NHL Hitz, NFL Blitz, Perfect Dark Zero, Virtual Striker 3, Phantasy Star Online, Too Human, Turok
Okay, now I am sick of typing titles. These aren't even all the titles that someone not in the midget market would love to play. Go to either e3.nintendo.com or gamecube.ign.com to get even more info.
Those are just my thoughts about Nintendo and us older people.
Unstable Apps: Our Android Apps Don't Suck
or should I say, if, Microsoft is split up. Does this XBox group compose a 4th division (OS, Software, *Internet*/ASP/ISP, Gaming/XBox)?
Tell me I'm not the only one that thinks Nintendo's Gamecube looks like the Omni Consumer Products logo?
Anyway, if you've seen the videos and screenshots for Rogue Squadron 2, or heard that a Perfect Dark sequel is coming to Gamecube, then you know what to do. Microsoft may be a big company, and Sony may have that year's head start, but Nintendo are the ones that make the good games. Well, them and Sega - who are also aiming games at it.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
"C) First person from the general public to kill a teammate, which was quite fun"
;)
err, you do realise that you might want to keep that quiet, don't you? Otherwise "kick the MasterVidBoi TKer" may be a phrase you have to get used to when this comes out...
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
Furthermore, if I go into a store, and I am Joe Shmoe and want a game console, would I really want the one that's not sold out? I look at two shelves, one is empty, and the other is full. What would I deduce over other people's desires to have the product?
Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.
Wow, the Xbox.. will this catch on like Ultimate TV? I have never really been impressed with MS's games(save Minsweeper). Basically they are just stuffing a PC in a (smaller)box, an X box! X becuase it can be anything, any ol' PC part. I can't see how this will compete with platforms such as the PS2(or PS1). Maybe PC cards would show better performance if they didn't have to share system resouces with Windows, I still wish I could leave windows and go into DOS to play games. The point is..MS is just peicing together stuff and not really developing their own HW. Not that this kind of "inovation" is any shocker coming from MS. Call me misinformed, but thats how I see it.
I would have also added Flight Simulator. That's been a pretty good selling title for Microsoft for a few years now.
"Old Rallydrivers never die - they just fail to book in on time"
Hey, take it easy on the sporks!
Unlikely... MS are unlikely to allow MP3's to be easily played - it goes against their corporate nature. They'll probably promote some stripped down version of WMA.
The PS2, on the other hand, does play MP3's (as does the PS1).
Fair enough - it'll still be another 7 months (if not longer) before the XBox is available. You've got the chance of getting a cool piece of gaming hardware now - or waiting till late 2001/early 2002.
Hey - this would be a cool poll!
Will the XBox be available:
a) before November 8th?
b) on November 8th?
c) after November 8th?
any bets?
Why?
I thought it was to categorize it as a home computer and avoid a games machine tax in some parts of the world knocking about 2% off Sony's costs.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. (Einstein)
So Microsoft is still going ahead with the name? I thought another company had struck a claim to "X-Box" and taken legal action.
Remember "Bring 'em on"? *sigh
Hundreds of games available
And zero PS2 consoles available to play them on...
Remember "Bring 'em on"? *sigh
http://www.bestbuy.com/videogames/Detail.asp?e=11
Men believe what they want. - Caesar
They're showing up in my local stores. Perhaps you are not looking carefully enough?
http://www.bestbuy.com/videogames/Detail.asp?e=11
Men believe what they want. - Caesar
Let's think for a minute here:
- 10+ million units sold worldwide and still going strong
- Hundreds of games available
- Tons of games on the horizon
- Powerful marketing savvy
- Rock-solid online plans
- Priority support from practically every 3rd party developer
- Solidifying 1st party (Jax, Gran Turismo 3, Ico, Dark Cloud, Extermination, Phase Paradox, Drakan, Wipeout Fusion, SOCOM, The Devil and I, Twisted Metal Black, The Getaway)
- Still riding the hype wave, control over consumer mindshare
- Killer, must-have titles (Gran Turismo 3, Metal Gear Solid 2, Devil May Cry, Twisted Metal Black, Final Fantasy X, Tekken 4, Soul Calibur 2)
- Huge headstart on the competition
- Other consoles are getting "table scraps" from PS2's gaming table
- No longer facing potential delays/shortages. The pressure's on MS and Nintendo now.
As you can see, Sony clearly has this war. Now the battle for 2nd place will be fought between MS and Nintendo. I predict Nintendo will win.
Men believe what they want. - Caesar
Sure, MS can blow away $500 million on marketing. But unless they have something to back up their hype, consumers ain't gonna bite. Just look at how awful WebTV, MSN, and WinCE are doing.
Men believe what they want. - Caesar
Zero PS2's to play on? You aren't thinking logically. The amount of Xboxes Microsoft plans to make is not very different from the amount of PS2's that Sony made, and even so, they could potentially face even worse shortages (remember that Sony's original aim was 1 million). Even so, I don't think shortages will be a problem since the Xbox will not sell very well.
Men believe what they want. - Caesar
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20010516 /mdf6260.jpg
:)
Damn that bitch must be heavy! Look at the expression on his face.
Men believe what they want. - Caesar
- PS2 games
- Enhanced PS1 games
- Compatible with all your old PS1 peripherals
- CD Player
- DVD Player w/ Dolby Digital and DTS
- Internet soon
- USB and Firewire
- Linux kit
- Compatible with your PC peripherals (USB)
In my opinion, $300 is an insanely great deal for what you get.
Men believe what they want. - Caesar
Is there any word yet on an MP3 player for XBox? It can play games, surf the web, and play DVDs... if it can play MP3s, then I'll buy on in an instant.
I wonder how that Nokia Game unit will sell.
Sony and Nokia need to get together and make the open source (hardware wise atleast) and then they will squash MS, but the question stays, how will they make money?
Don't think of Microsoft as a software giant. Think of it as a Marketing Giant.
hmm... for fun I enjoy launching DDoS attacks against 127.87.42.5
X-Box is saying it will have only twenty games
That is a record, I believe
that but Microsoft is having a small problem of signing Gaming teams on board
I don't know where you got this info.. MS has a crap load of teams on board.. even Capcom. And the only one that really matters is EA. If a console has Madden, it will do at least OK. The lack of EA killed Sega, pretty much.
Playstation isn't all that handsome of a price right now but by then you will expect major price cuts (more then the expected $50 - $100 expected at E3 Conference this week)
You think that in 6 months, they will drop the PS2 from $299 to less than $199?! Not bloody likely! $249 at MOST.
Josh Sisk
Huh, I thought that was already out, for some reason... Don't really keep up with handhelds as much.
Josh Sisk
$199, not $400. And that's at the time of release. The DC dropped to $149, then $99. A good deal for a great game system... I personally never buy more than eight or so games for any console anyway, so I don't really care if they are not making new games. All I _really_ need for any system is : one fighting game, one racing game, one shooter, one space game, one simple, multiplayer "party" game.
Hey, I don't think my computer is powerful enough, either and I use Windows (and Linux). It won't be until I can filter, crop and/or rotate 100mb+ Photoshop files in real time.
By the same token, many of the folks creating software for proprietary devices don't give a rat's ass about Microsoft. They'll use Linux because it works, and its free.
Not only that, but wake up. Linux already runs on PS/2, and its pretty doubtful that MS will be able to prevent the inevitable hack that will get Linux running on the Xbox.
Now go back to trolltalk and come up with something better next time.
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
how does the GPL work if you're selling a hardware product? Say you're selling a toaster and you want to keep your proprietary toasting algorithm private, but its running on Linux. Can you do that since you are really selling hardware? Or do you have to GPL your software as well?
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
I still can't go into Walmart or CompUSA and find a PS/2 on the shelf. I'm not paying $500 for an overpriced "game pack", I'm not placing a special order, and I'm not going to buy one on Ebay. If I could find one on the shelf at the store, I probably would have bought a PS2. But after 7 months of waiting, and its still not on the shelf, well I changed my mind. Sony, kiss my $299 goodbye. It could have been yours.
Don't make me go through hoops to buy your product. If MS follows this simple rule, they will experience an order of magnitude more sales.
No, Thursday's out. How about never - is never good for you?
I live in a small market town and can recall at least 3 places where I've seen them on sale in the past week.
What are Dell, Compaq, IBM, eMachines, etc, etc, and all the other big computer builders going to think when the XBox starts to eat into the sales of its Home-PC lines!
I'll go out on a limb and say that home PC sales aren't the bread and butter for at least the first three companies that you mention there. I'm sure that hey are happy to have the business of the "Consumo-tron-2000 PC buyer", but that's not where they concentrate their marketing and sales efforts. Their business PC lines probably generate the bulk of the sales and profits for those companies. (And eMachines doesn't have the clout to tell MS to stuff it.)
I'm also not even sure that the Xbox is necessarily going to eat that much into the sales of PCs in general, even with avid gamers. Generally PC games don't translate well into consoles, and vice versa. MS hasn't exactly innovated a new type of game controller for the Xbox, and good PC games generally make use of the whole keyboard plus the mouse, which is far more inputs than a console game controller has.
I have to admit that I'm more than a little surprised by how many people think M$ will simply walk away with the console market. Numbers are thrown around about how much more powerful it is, how the graphics will shame the competition, the ballyhooed half-billion dollar marketing warchest that is raring to go etc. etc. etc. IMHO M$ will be lucky to share second place with Nintendo. I realize that many who read that last statement are either LOL or quietly snickering but the reality of the situation is that nearly 10 million PS2s have been sold already world-wide. If M$ has a good Christmas season (which assumes they actually ship a product on time) and sells 1 million units, that is only 10 percent of the CURRENT INSTALLED base of PS2 machines. The contention that Sony has lost the console war is surely a Laputan proclamation unworthy of anyone with their feet on solid ground.
IBM pulled completely out of the consumer market. They were taking a huge loss-per-unit that totaled something like $1Billion.
In California, I never see consumer Dell machines sold. They do focus on SOHO sales over the phone/web though.
The only way that Compaq can be in the consumer market is to sell crapboxes that only serve to ruin their once excellent reputation among younger consumers.
Basically, because personal computers are all standard parts, it's a fucking race to the bottom. There's no money there (except for Intel/AMD and Microsoft) and home machines will get cheaper and cheaper until the only manufactures are no-name bozos and everything will be totally unreliable.
Then someone will look at what Apple is doing and team with Microsoft to make a proprietary "works better" version of the PC just to try to restore some sanity to the market.
Anyway enjoy the good times of cheap, good commodity hardware while they last -- it's basic economics that it can't go on forever.
When I hear the word 'innovation', I reach for my pistol.
By that time, the PS2 will have been on the market nearly a year and can't compete w/ the Xbox in terms of power, it will be ready for a price drop. Will they try to go toe to toe w/ the GameCube, or try to undercut it?
my sig's at the bottom of the page.
I hear you. If they could have gotten them out, the initial shortage could have been written off as marketing + hype generation. It's gotten to the point where it's clearly some combination of incompetence & arrogance.
my sig's at the bottom of the page.
umm... and where do you live? Antarctica? Even here in back-assed-oh-my-god-i-cant-believe-they-got-the-o lympics Utah, I can go to almost any store that sells games, and buy a PS2. Babbages/Software ETC? in stock. kmart? in stock. and since you've been so patient, maybe you should just wait until GT3 ships, and all the PS2's sony promised months ago, will mysteriously show up. or at least untill november when sony drops the price a hundred bucks.
Shift happens. Fire it up.
Does anyone else see the XBox as a flagrant slap in the face of the DOJ?
Microsoft is about to use its monopoly power to introduce a competing platform to play games on. Games that would normally be played on PCs.
The Consumo-tron-2000 level PC buyer will consider buying a console over a PC now.
What are Dell, Compaq, IBM, eMachines, etc, etc, and all the other big computer builders going to think when the XBox starts to eat into the sales of its Home-PC lines! M$ is breaking an important business rule here: "Dont compete with your customers." Now the fact that they can do this - and dell, compaq, ibm and everyone else dont immediately turn their backs and use another OS helps prove that there are NOT ALTERNATIVES in the market - further proving their monopoly. The fact that they are trying this AFTER the DOJ ruled against them is bizarre. The fact that more people havent raised this issue is also wierd... this is like microsoft beginning to sell its own computer... why hasnt the DOJ fired up the lawyers and stopped this?
Just like the people who will port Linux to the Xbox, you don't count. If you are doing serious computation then chances are you're not running Windows anyway, so the net gain is 0.
We all like to think that Microsoft is slowly but surely losing the battle over free software, but sadly this is not the case. The X-box will deliver a crushing blow against freedom and the GNU flag wavers are going to be blindsided by it.
Gnome? KDE? The desktop is dead. The future of computing has nothing to do with computers as we know them, because the computers we hve now are 10x more powerful than they need to be for the tasks they are used for - with one exception: Entertainment.
Games and other forms of digital entertainment are the only things that continue to push the limits of comuting power, and in case you haven't been paying attention, all entertainment systems are closed source. The abysmal failure of a Linux-based gaming platform just goes to show that Open Source has absolutely no chance of making any headway against proprietary systems.
You can all pat yourselves on the back and cheer the Perens-penned tirade against Microsoft, but it doesn't matter. The folks in Redmond really don't give a rat's ass about the GPL, they are just making sure you are all distracted over something that is uterly trivial in the long term. Meanwhile, they are preparing their jugernaut for the coming holiday shopping season while the free software leaders are wasting time trying to attack a portion of the industry that is increasingly irrelevant.
It will not be entirely a Microsft world. It will be a Sony/Nintendo/EA/Microsoft world. And none of it will be Open Source.
So where do I get my MCSX for administration of an XBox?
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
Nintendo will survive because it has *good* games. Nobody needs 20 Quake 3:s. XBox and PS2 will probably have hundreds of games compared to Nintendo, but Nintendo games have more quality. Microsoft may have the money to advertise worth half a billion, but personally I dont need people telling me what to play. Even the Gameboy has better games than most of the Playstation/PC games produced. Nintendo has survived since the 1980`s and will most certainly survive from now on.
GeoKone.NET
Both of these will be nothing compared to Indrema. Oh, wait.
That said, that leaves Xbox and Playstation 2 competing for the same audience -- and for $300 apiece, it's unlikely most players will want to buy both systems. That's why I'm wondering if Xbox will really be able to gain a foothold; if everyone who has a PS2 already owns one by this fall, why should they buy an Xbox? Only a *HUGE* library of exclusive hits ("The Matrix" alone won't do the trick) and a dramatic improvement in graphics power will seduce fans to wait, at this point, for an Xbox over a PS2.
From the news reports it seems Micr$oft will lose about $125 per unit. But they are expecting to sell two billion dollars worth of product in two years. In a market worth over six billion a year.
So hopefully they will fail and we can hack them and have some sweet and cheap little workstations.
By definition, a government has no conscience. Sometimes it has a policy, but nothing more. - Albert Camus
1.) Initial hardware shortages
2.) Mediocre (at best) software
3.) Wedged between Nintendo and the Redmond collective.
I would love to see them survive this.
Just a thought, DirectX is a M$ 'standard' and as such it is also being used on the X box, the X box has standard hardware Nvidia GPU and Intel CPU.
Now one of the most apppealing things for developers about the X-Box is the ability to easily port between PC and X-Box and Vice Versa, now does this mean that developers will only care about performance on Intel chips and NVidia GPU's? will they start being unfazed about using 3D-Now! extensions of the ability to take advantage of some of the Radeons avanced features?
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I choose to look this way,
I choose to act this way,
Yeah, Nintendo games will cost the average 50$ a game, no big surpirse there... They do not use expensive cartridges anymore, the use mini dvd type discs... 8 cm across, should be cheaper than even normal DVDs to make...
Shit adds up at the bottom...
You obviously haven't paid any attention to the near launch lineup of the GC. It includes games like: Eternal Darkness Rogue Squadron 2 Resident evil 0(?, we'll have to wait a few days to see when it'll come out exactly.) Luigi's Mansion(it's like survival horror for kids) Star Fox Batman Crazy Taxi Extreme G3 Pikmin Rogue Spear Super Smash brothers 2 Waverace Blue Storm That is discounting all the sports titles for launch It may just be me, but I only see 3 sequels? And they all look good and fun? Surely it can't be!!
Shit adds up at the bottom...
I'll apologize beforehand if this is repetive: I didn't see any posts on this, or I'd be replying to them.
1) PS/2:
It is already out. This is a plus. Other then that, I don't really see any postives. The graphics, while good, aren't any better then what I expect from the X-Box or GameCube. The games are also not up to par, or so I've heard. The best is supposedly SSX Snowboarding (I think) and a snowboarding game is not my idea of a landmark title.
2)X-Box:
Microsoft definitely has the time, resources, and, dare I say it, talent to pull this off. If MS can squash all their bugs pre-release they have a good shot of winning the console market. This isn't because their console is inherently good, but because people, the uninformed masses, see MS and equate it with computers, and afterall, computers and game consoles aren't that far apart, right? If MS can build us good computers surely they can build a good console thingy! (Voice of the people). Microsoft has the money to pull this off, winning the market I mean, but I'm definitely going to check this out at a friend's before buying it. (BTW, this could be the winner if MS does a good job. I do think they could do a good job if they had too.)
GameCube:
These guys, Nintendo, definitely have a strong postition. They have expierience creating consoles that sell well, good graphics, and are popular. If Nintendo can overcome the "kiddie phenomen" (only selling games to children) then they have a real shot at taking over the game market.
As to which one I'll buy... I'll definitely have to wait and see how the GameCube and X-Box look. I think what this will come down to is titles. Nintendo has a history of not so great stuff to overcome (I'm not eight), but PS/2 hasn't shown anything great so far. Looks like X-Box, if they can pull it together and get a decent title out, might be my choice.
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No sig for you.
It was okay for Nintendo to sell their product for less that it cost, it was okay for Sony to do it. However, if evil Microsoft tries to do its not fair.
Gee, maybe Atari and a few other console makers would disagree with you. It wasn't exactly fair to them when nintendo entered the market and put them face down in the dirt.
Yes Microsoft is not the nicest punk on the block, but you cannot have competition with double standards. Whats next, welfare for the last two failed attempts lo launch a linux game box?
Microsoft won't dominate the industry unless they make something that clearly exceeds the expectations of the people who buy consoles. Secondly the technology changes so much that in 18 months the X-box will look like a 2600... (well maybe a 5200).
If Microsoft actually introduces a platform that people don't have to throw out every 18 months then they are doing more for the public than these current game console companies are doing. Don't go blaming microsoft for something nintendo and sony are already doing - you'll look like a hypocrit.
Smile, mod me down or up, in the end your still wrong.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
Of course it might also drive competition and make other companies come out with better products... Or it could make them go out of business.
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Oh bother.
What the hells up with all these Boxes and Cubes...Why cant someone make a Xcube or a GameGlobe..anybody?
The only statement that cannot be questioned, is that every statement can be questioned.
XBox is a great thing! I'll support it. I mean, Microsoft should do something that they excel.(Not server, for God's sake)
Next time when my PHB asks me to setup NT/2K server for our 10 millions database, I can say "Sound great, this company make great games box, too!"
Boss, just get that NT server off my sight.
X-Box is saying it will have only twenty games
That is a record, I believe
I think the GBA is going to have more... i think...
Shameless Self Promotion : Webhosting at Blender Networks.
And here we see the fruits of more than a decade of criminal monopoly power: the alchemists of Redmond converting half a billion in loot into "reviews," press "coverage," and "buzz" about its new toy. After a certain saturation point, it hardly matters whether the X-Box turns out to be any good at all. How can they fail? That's half a billion in tax deductible advertising, and today's media sing when they see the green flashing. You can hear the sycophants warming up their adjectives already.
It's a landmark experiment in engineering public attitudes, and a wonderful illustration of how the game of free markets is played.
The XBox is going to be a serious player, and that is simply because of the launch title Halo.
Tonight Bungie Studios threw the fifth FanFest, where at the end they unveiled 2 xbox xdk's, and proceeded to demonstrate solo games, and let the attendees play Halo on.
The following is my quick review, copied from where I posted it on another forum, but it should give you an idea of what the XBox is capable of doing.
Keep in mind this info is really new. The FanFest ended about an hour ago, and the info is just starting to trickle it. It should be considered an indication of what Microsoft/Bungie will show at e3 tomorrow
I have played Halo, and declare it Good(tm)
I hold several nifty records
A) First person from the general public ever to drive the Warthog. (The Jeep)
B) First person from the general public ever to run an enemy over in said Warthog.
C) First person from the general public to kill a teammate, which was quite fun.
I'll make this short, then move on into details:
Before, I never really considered buying an X-Box.
Now, I'm going to be waiting first in line.
Quick list of facts I remember right now:
- 4 controllers per x-box, up to 4 xboxes can be connected together through a LAN, for a 16 player game. Bungie has only gotten 3 xboxes working so far, and is working on the fourth.
- The controllers were much better than expected. They obviously take some getting used to, but after spinning out for 2 minutes in the Warthog trying to make it turn, it got fairly easy. Good aiming will take more practice, but it does work.
- The game is beautiful beyond belief. The waterfalls and trees are amazing, especially the rays of sunlight coming through the tree branches.
- All of the weapons seem fairly capable of good damage. No UberWeapons jumped right out.
- The other marines sound very much like characters from a previous series of loved Bungie games (Marathon)
- The multiplayer game we were playing was using 2 xdks, playing with 8 players, split 4 to a screen.
- The multiplayer map was standard CTF, 2 small bases, 2 flags, large canyon in between, Warthog starting on each side.
- Warthogs don't care who is driving them, they are not colored for a specific team. At one time a blue driver was driving around a red rear gunner, and neither of them knew it for awhile.
- Friendly fire from the rear gunner into the back of the drivers head appears to be possible. Very dangerous
- The Warthogs gun is freakishly powerful. But your not going to hit anything at all while it's moving. Be prepared for motion sickness.
- The solo games are narrated with in game dialog, and your friendly marines are fairly effective it seems. That didn't keep the demo guy from dying several times.
In short, Halo is one hell of a launch title, and you can bet that Microsoft will leverage that very heavily in their $500 million ad campaign.
There's no way that any console maker can sell a console at a profit these days, considering the level of hardware that has to go into them and the price-point at which consumers expect them to be sold.
http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2761 338,00.html
The coolest voice ever.
Age of Empires? Close Combat? Links LS? Granted, they've had a tendency to acquire game developers rather than develop inhouse, but now they have a bunch of perfectly credible developers on staff and there's no reason to think those people will stop coming up with good games just because their paychecks come from Microsoft.
"GameCube is reasonably priced (but its games wont be)" um, could i possibly ask where you got this information, seeing as how nintendo has barely released any public information about anything GCN related, especially the price of the games. i personally am worried that if microsoft pulls the microsoft stunt(one trick pony), which is enter a market and blindly dominate it, that puts them in a position of not having to deal with compitition. and with any monopoly(e.x. windows) comes stagnantation of the product and possibly of the entire videogame market. if microsoft comes into town, sony and nintendo go bankrupt, and microsoft is the sole console maker, we might not see a new console in 8-10 years(i can see microsoft justifiying it now, "but the xbox is so powerful")
. the world is my toilet - chris mooney
Sega, which has given up selling game machines to focus on titles.
That's funny, I've given up buying game machines to focus on titties.
A number of things come into play here when you ask if there will be enough of a market. First off the market is only there if there are enough attractive games out there to pull some buyers. They dont even need the hard-core gamers (sorry to make you guys feel unwanted) they just need a nice chunk of the masses. X-Box is saying it will have only twenty games out which is a nice amount if it can get them out and ready in time (we know about Microsofts schedualing problems). Not only that but Microsoft is having a small problem of signing Gaming teams on board because it is an unproven system and people might react negitivly to it so why produces games that will fail. On the other hand if it hits the market and everyone goes wild it will be the new baby on the block and everyone will want to get on board to the project
Another thing to consider is price. GameCube is reasonably priced (but its games wont be) and Playstation isn't all that handsome of a price right now but by then you will expect major price cuts (more then the expected $50 - $100 expected at E3 Conference this week) Which will boost its sales just in time for the holiday season.
Over all i hope it works out because (even though it is microsoft) a little competition for the market will bring prices down through out the gamin world and no one can complain about that.
My little Universe is cool for the people who can fit inside it (being 250 6'4" there aren't that many who can)
I understand that the PS2 and Xbox use advanced hardware and all, but why are they $299? In my opinion, game consoles should max out at $200. When you start asking several hundred dollars for a game-playing machine, you've gone too far.
Of course, I understand how poor Microsoft is. I'm sure they need the extra money.
I KNOW I'm right. And if I'm not, I'm STILL right...
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Hiya, I live in Australia but I did pay LA and New York a visit in January. Yes it would seem that the PS2 is having a major shortage in the US. This is certainly not evident here - but I think much of that is due to the pricey nature off a AUD$700 console. The situation could be true in Europe as well..
Once 1394 and HAVI (http://www.havi.org) fully catch on, the grandchildren of XBox and PS2 will be fighting it out to integrate your home/entertainment systems and provide internet access.
Call me uninformed, because I am, but what stops me from buying a cheap Xbox and stripping it's hardware? I was hoping I could get a cheap GeForce3 card... If the hardware isn't integrated, what's keeps me from doing that? -codehead