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Making an X Terminal from a PC
PSwiss writes: "I recently wrote an article for Linux Gazette on how to make an X Terminal from an old PC (486s work great). It's a neat application of Linux and would make a good project for some weekend." This is a nice step-by-step guide ... we posted a similar project not too long ago, about diskless linux kiosks.
Sort of related...has anyone successfully set up VNC so it could be used from a secure web browser? I'd love to be able to access my work desktop securely via a browser, however I can never quite figure it out. Any ideas/resources?
The REAL problem with a VL or ISA vidcard is the high likelihood that they won't have enough DRAM on them to manage a reasonable resolution.
Most museum piece video cards simply don't support very interesting video modes.
Fortunately, P5/60's and P5/200's are also dirtcheap landfill fodder as well.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
There's nothing about a floppy drive or an rs-232 port that makes a machine less stable or slower. The "extra cost" of such things is minimal at best. If those pennies really worry you, you shouldn't be squandering money on computers anyways.
All this "enforced progress" does is cause perfectly happy computer users to squander resources on otherwise unecessary hardware.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
I picked up one of those at my University's Surplus Auctions a while back for like $25. It even came with 20MB of RAM, but the absolute worse thing was the (lack of) colors available. It was *black* or *white*, no shades of gray (unless you count the horrid dithering). About the only useful app on the damn thing was xterm, =).
Using ssh with X forwarding is much more convenient than futzing around with DISPLAY and xauth. And despite the traffic being sent in plain text, it's still more secure. I used to set DISPLAY by hand, but just running 'ssh -c none otherbox netscape' is much easier.
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
I didn't want to use telnet because, uh, it's crufty and why install both telnet and ssh on a box, when you can tweak ssh to to the job of both. With an ssh config file you can tell it to use no encryption for 192.168.0.* and strong encryption for everything else. Plus ssh does port forwarding much better than telnet does.
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
So, I'm a student at CMU and am thinking about buying a cheap laptop (somewhere between a 486 and a Pentium II), slapping a wireless card on it, and exploiting CMU's almost-ubiquitous wireless network to use it as a nice and portable X terminal.
Are there any concerns specific to laptops that would be nice to know? For example, are there any particular types of laptop hardware I should avoid? Also, what mostly determines how smoothly an X terminal runs -- memory, the video card, cpu power, or something else?
Lastly, does anybody happen to know of a good place online (besides, say, E-Bay) to get "outdated" laptops?
Which brings me to another point (sorry for the offtopicness), does anyone know if it's possible to have a openfirmware-like BIOS for x86 boxen? Because that would make all this just moot point.
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What would be really cool if you could put chipcard readers on your X terminal to imitate the desk-hopping usefulness of a SunRay. Not to mention it will run fine (speedy even) on a 10Mbit network.
Oh, more info about the SunRay appliance I am using right now can be had here.
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This is about an X terminal. It doesn't have to run all those bulky apps. It only has networking support and a X display server running (and maybe possible esd for sound). Installing an *entire* distro for a homegrown X terminal is truly overkill and a waste of time (and effort).
The big machine you log into with it has all the apps, the terminal just displays the click-and-drool GUI bits, nothing else. For just running an X display server and some rudimentary networking support, 8 MB is *plenty*, not to mention *generous*.
I've seen enough comments lacking this insight. I hope this explains it. If not, read this and the article *AGAIN*.
Lather, Rinse, Repeat, until you get it.
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I would estimate that only about 10% of Windows 3.1 machines ever had video acceleration enabled (even when they had a better card, the install hassles usually meant they were running the 'SVGA' driver).
So it's quite possible that unaccelerated X seemed no slower than unaccelerated 3.1 on the same machine, but really slow now that you've been spoiled with 6 years of accelerated Windows drivers.
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Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
... the Oracle ThinkNIC? I've searched all over the 'net, and keep finding links to old info ("the roo password is 4getit!!!" Wahoo. Like you can't change it by booting editing the iso and reburning), but no links to stuff like "heres what I did, how I did it, and here's the iso for you to download so you don't have to replicate all my hard work. I have the beefy machine to host it, I have the monitor to use, and can quickly string the cable to the part of the house my nic will end up at, but after many nights of both searching and trying myself, I'm about ready to give up. Which would be a shame as I got my nic for free, and I hate to throw away free hardware. Help? Anyone? Anyone?
Thanks,
perhaps if i had some rexec scripts setup to run the programs on the xserver from the application server. That way they would just be run local even though over an nfs mount. It may not be super speedy but it should work.
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
Where is a good howto on getting sound to work. I have had an xterminal for some time but have not gotten sound to work. I heard it was possible but didn't know how.
Another question:
Is it possable to get accelerated 3d working over a network connection?? I wouldn't think so but it sure would be neet.
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
My favorate platform for a nice lite X terminal is actually an old SPARCstation running something like NetBSD. Sure, it'll probably only do 8 bit color well, but the image quality will be good and you'll get a res of 1152x900. Another advantage of machines like Suns is that you can make them behave more "terminal-like", by running them totally diskless. Net-booting the things is very easy.
I can't remember the url or don't know if this is even the correct name but there is something out there called Mix TNT. Do a google search for that
So, what about the Linux Terminal Server Project. Isn't that all about X-terminals. What's to important about this "News". The benefits are known.
X is affected by the speed of the graphics card that it's displaying with. A 486/33 will be running an ISA, possibly VESA graphics card, which will be slow, whatever you do. Now, running Solaris 8 on an SS10 (40MHz) gives a fast display to a fast X-server, so even a slow box can be a good X client (remember the display is the server, the app runs on the client).
I would reccomend that you try and use PCI 486s so you can get a fast card, and one that has good acceleration support under XFree86. Given the hardware we are talking about, spending an extra couple of quid in the right place can make a world of difference.
nope, that doesn't work--perhaps there must be an Xsrver in there?
Slackware: old school feel, new school gear.
[deletia]
>My friend managed to convince the network admin
>to let him put his Linux box in the "server room"
>as a streaming web server.
[deletia]
How on earth did you manage that?!
It sounds nice but there are a couple of details missing. X on a shared server is not a solution for high performance video games, or even for CPU hogging stuff like hires video playback or Flash playback or Java program. You can't buy Quicken for Linux.
Very little of the consumer software available on the Web is Linux compatible which is a bit of a bummer. Staroffice ain't Office. Mozilla ain't IE5, in terms of compatibility with existing sites.
Hmm, a perfectly reasonable new computer costs $500... reasonable used 586 system $200... Nope, can't say that I do know anyone who can't afford one. I do know plenty of people who don't have the interest or inclination, just the same as with other toys that require a certain amount of commitment to use. But I wouldn't think anyone who can afford a roof over his head in the US can't afford a computer if he wants one.
The original poster wrote about selling packages to homeowners. Home users do need video games and Flash and other bandwidth-intensive stuff. A corporate environment would be a better match for X.
Your cable TV idea is off the mark; today's PC video games run at video bandwidth that far exceeds a closed circuit TV system. There is no economical server-based replacement for a fast 3D video card, connected by a short cable to a hires display, and connected by a fast bus to a fast CPU. Many of the hot applications for a home PC require this setup.
The hardware is the Xterminal - the software (process) running on that hardware is the Xserver.
Just to confuse the issue, the applications software (processes) running on the (hardware) server are called X Clients
In general, when talking client/server think processes rather than hardware. Client processes make requests (gimme a file/query some data/draw this box) and server processes accept requests and perform the requested action
MrCreosote Meow!Thump!Meow!Thump!Meow!Thump! "You're right! There isn't enough room to swing a cat in here!"
YM, "the app is the client". HTH
...is another tank.
Was another tank
Was a helicopter
Is an A-10 Warthog
I've been using VNC over my cable modem (< 2Mb/s d/l, 256 Kb/s u/l) through an ssh tunnel for 6 or 8 months with no complaints. It's _much_ faster than a plain X connection over the same link. You might be right about the CPU requirements, but VNC seems to do a good job for me on the bandwidth side.
Yes...I am a rocket scientist.
It should be easy enough to find out. Download a version of XFree86 from 10 years ago and run a performance comparison against a current version.
I just got hold of a Labtam CT320 and am wondering if anyone knows where i can get the boot software from to boot this thing.
--
A pencil without an eraser is just a pen.
-- A Pencil without an eraser is just a pen
Comment removed based on user account deletion
yet how do you ever learn to do something other than by trying to reinvent the wheel?
Um, I thought that's what HOWTO's were for...
I'm not sure on the specifics of X... (ie. how many sessions X can handle)... but you can setup VNC to run on a particular session. Here at work I've got 3 separate sessions. Granted, though, that this takes more macho hardware on the server side.
Mike
--Ask a silly person, get a silly answer.
In my expereince, isa cards are very slow at 16bit. Droping it down to 256 helps, but things dont look as nice as they should. I have an old 486sx/33 and the graphics preformance of X was just about the same as windows. So I suspect XFree isn't to blame here, crappy hardware is.
NCD's rock ass. I had two; one of the portraits and one of the square 15" ones. Fantastic machines; still wish I had them.
*sigh*
Peanut Linux runs just fine on a 486/66,
at least the PRE KDE 2.x Peanut Linux distro. =)
--- even the safest course is fraught with peril
...is a pissed off civilian holding a couple of shopping bags standing in front of the tank while the world is watching.
What Id reaaaally like is for public schools in Brazil to start teaching maths and sciences properly, and to have something we could actually call a library. If you have that, then you dont
really need much to teach cs.
The University of Santa Maria (UFSM/Brazil-RS) had (maybe still has) a great computer course for kids, based on MSXs!
You just might be surprised to see just how snappy an X-terminal really can be with minimal processor power, given an appropriate networking environment.
True, it's going to cost the library/non-profit/what-have-you a few hundred bucks to use switched fast ethernet, but with an appropriately customized kernel and a reasonable display (don't forget that there are a LOT of old 486's out there with a PCI buss instead of ISA-only) I think this is a very viable topic.
Regards,
ninewands
utter rubbish
And ... BTW, the average age of THIS slashdot poster is the reverse of what you've read ...
Regards,
ninewands
utter rubbish
Actually, with an X-terminal, all you're running on the 486 is X itself. The apps run on the server and the X-terminal only manages/provides the display.
utter rubbish
Actually, the situation is quite reversed from the big-iron days. With AS/400s and S/390s pretty much relegated to their appropriate tasks (i.s being file/spplication/database servers to PCs) the cumulative processing power of the workstations attached to a mainframe far exceeds the processing power of the mainframe itself in a large company.
That being said, let's concede that the average slashdotter is going to have sufficient use for all the processor power and bandwidth he/she can get. On the other hand, this article brings togather all the information necessary for a savvy "system/network consultant" to open the final door to Linux's achieving "world domination."
You can build a world-crushing server-class box for (I'm guessing) under $2000. You can add 4 X-terminals to it (using single-board computers) for about another $1500. Preconfigure the server for your client, using Star Office, or your productivity suite of choice, make sure the whole thing works reliably, and sell the new homebuyer a "Smart Home" package for less than the cost of 5 retail market packaged PCs (plus MS Office on each) plus the router they'll need to share their DSL/cablemodem connection.
True we don't have the depth of entertainment software the Windows world has, but Loki's working hard to set that situation to right.
just My US$0.02.
Regards,
ninewands
utter rubbish
VNC is a bandwidth hog? Your experience is very different than mine...I run it over a 10MB half-duplex network, and it's not bad. Seriously, if you /had/ to upgrade to 100MB, what the hell were you doing? Playing full-screen movies? Running Napster on the same unswitched network? Here's an experiment: start up VNC. Kill off anything that requires frequent updates (xdaliclock, xosview, whatever). Use only flat colors in your windowmanager (and that includes the background!) You'll see the performance increase tremendously.
Uh. If you had a spare PC with a working screen, why couldn't you just take the screen from the P120 and hook it up to the PIII? (By screen, you do mean monitor, right?)
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OK, I missed it, and it's a big DUH moment for me. But I take comfort in the fact that I'm not the only one. (prog-guru thinks you're just lazy.)
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Cygwin has a port of xfree86 (along with many other handy unix apps) for windows at http://xfree86.cygwin.com/.
Maybe he's just lazy, I used to run NT inside VMware through a remote X session just because the machine with Vmware had a modem and I got tired of moving it to another system whenever I needed to dial into an NT site.
chris@xanadu:~$ whatis /.
/.: nothing appropriate.
It depends. If you want to send the data over a network, render it, and have it come back, forget it. A LAN may not have noticable lag for multiplayer, but it's not enough to replace the system bus. If you were thinking of the data being re-broadcast over the network for observers or having a fixed scene rendered (or anything where the program controling the rendering and the rendering hardware are on the same computer), it would be possible.
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They that quote Benjamin Franklin on liberty and safety deserve neither.
A standalone device is better where the users do not have storage & performance is important (i.e. they are using low end hardware). Or, a home user type environment, where they don't have a seperate server machine & sysadmin to manage it. The QNX demo floppy has a simple environment that is very lean/fast/efficient. It is primarily for WWW access via modem or ethernet.
For a great single floppy system, check out the QNX Demo Floppy http://www.qnx.com/demodisk/
I'm sure similar things exist based on Linux. I think I even saw a Boot-CD based linux system that included a lot more applications.
This sounds great, but has anybody explored the possibility of serving X apps from a Beowulf cluster of similarly pre-loved equipment?
Call me perverse, but running 486/Pentium terminals off a virtual Athlon which is actually a cluster of 486/Pentiums appeals greatly to me.
Well, I realize that Linux distros have grown since I was in college, but my first Linux installation was on a 486 with 8MB of RAM, and X worked fine. For local apps, it was slow, but for terminal service of remote apps, it rocked! Nothing like doing your EE project from your dorm room, while everyone else is toiling away in Unix lab :-)
What's the story on bootp. I understood that it was no longer being developed and at risk for buffer overflows, etc. Most distros patched a 2.4.3 version, but is that sufficient?
>Of course, you can still argue that old machines use much more electricity.
;-)
No way... The latest Athlon CPUs require 250 watt power supplies for enough juice just to power the CPU, one HDD, and one CDROM. A Pentium IV requires a 200 watt to do the same thing.
I've seen miniturised 486s using 100 watt power supplies doing the same thing. That and the fact not all 486s even required heatsinks should tell ya something.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Here's one with enough power to play mp3s. It uses 10 watts maximum. Throw in a hard drive (2A @ 12V max) and a CDROM (1A @ 12V max), you are looking at 46 watts.
:-)
Ok, that's a "586"... which is a 486 "pumped up". I'll find you a real 486...
Here's a real 486 that takes about 8 watts of power.
Totally silent, both of them.
You could get real 486 motherboards back in the days when that was hot stuff that used less than 50 watts of power (including the CPU).
I'd get you prices, but I just don't know where to buy that stuff. I'd ask the manufacturers.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
LOL...good troll.
Carousel is a lie!
i think your server was a touch slow....
Note the example machine in that setup was a 1Ghz beastie
'There is a Light that never goes out.'
I've been looking for easy ways to turn an old pc into a netscape box for the purposes of retail sales (POS, records keeping, inventory) where everything is available using links in netscape. Would I need some kind of database? or could netscape do this in some way. I've been thinking slackware as the base distro, but with everything I don't need left out. I know this can be done, and I could probably figure it out, but I'm lazy, and was wondering if anyone has done this. I would say hook it up to the other pc in our store, but the owner needs his games, and i'd need internal DSL modem and USB support for the zip drive, scanner, gamepad, etc... And good support for the sony cd-rw we just got. Everytime the system goes down for some assinine reason, I'd love to have a detailed way of replacing everything with Linux. I've already threatened him with NT4...
Shift happens. Fire it up.
TWW
"Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
Yeah, but VNC actually is a bandwidth hog! I had to upgrade my hub to support 100Mbps because a single VNC session required roughly 100KBps when in heavy use. VNC just doesn't cut it.
Spring is here. Don't believe me, look outside!
It's really easy to change a PSU fan. The difficult bit is making the replacement fit, because it might not necessarily be the same mounting. Most are though
The other thing to remember is that with no HD, CD or any other power-guzzling device, the load on the PSU is much lighter.
So you can modify the PSU to power the fan from 5v instead of 12v (connect the red wire from the fan to the red wire on the motherboard connector, instead of the yellow wire).
Result - a much quieter fan!
I stand corrected.... I didn't think of it that way: I thought more of less effectieve old power supplies or so. You make sense...any idea where I can get those silent 100W 486es?
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
As for the redirection of My Documents: I never ever had a problem with it (not at home, not at work). Points to "J:\Eigene Dateien" fine all the time and I'm working with a roaming profile here. Be sure to search the *whole* registry for "My Documents" each time you installed a MS product. They are quite pedantic on it (I loathe it...what is wrong with "home"?), and don't use theire base registry keys. Same for "Program Files", I have seen it hardcoded in many installers...on my machine it's E:\WinApp and it stays that way.
Of course I prefer an XSession to the local Solaris machine...
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
Read the post again please...I clearly state that the P120 is a laptop. I want to see how you connect a laptop screen to a desktop machine.
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
Well I like the Roaming Profile thingy to some extent: it protects the user from losing things due to BSODs and is quite transparent to the user....The big problem is the "writing" of the "My Documents" part. (You can redirect it to a mounted "drive" on your samba-server, i know, so it is fixable)
If some people store all stupid joke-movie they get by email in their My Documents and also all their MP3's you have to transfer all those files over the network to the server. Very funny if nearly everyone leaves work at about 17:30.... It nearly takes half an hour to log out! (100Mps network...seen this personally)
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
Even thought we were on the same LAN as the Linux box, the router would take our VNC connection, route it out through the school's T1, back in through the school's T1, to the box. The Linux box would reply back onto the T1, and then it would come back through the T1 That sounds more like a problem with your router. Why would you route local traffic out through your T1?
the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head
The problem as I see it is: 1) Netscape is slow on a P90 no matter what you do 2) Any cipher is going to be processor intensive on a 486 and a P90
Sometimes you by Force overwhelmed are.
Nietzche is dead - God
You make the mistake of thinking you can educate the fundamental stupidity out of people. You can't.
Unless you are running ssh, X-Windows uses very little ram and cpu. Since the apps are not run locally, you only have to worry about the network and X-Win itself. I've done it. Works fine.
There was a time when a 25Mhz computers were speedy. Those very same computers run Xwin perfectly.
Burn Hollywood Burn
You guys invented lynx, for cryin' out loud!
"Who would have thought that they would freak out in Kansas?" -- Frank Zappa
where there's fish, there's cats
I remember back in the days of Windows 3.1 and Netware that we had a bunch of machines that had nothing except a ne2000 network card and floppy. The computer would POST, then the NIC would connect to a Novell bootdisk image (1.44 megs but on a NFS) then the server would create a seperate space for each terminal to use their own version of 3.1.
Point being, would it be possible to do something similar so you wouldn't need a floppy for the Xterminal?
Wow, must have been hard to write the article when you have stuff like this, In Issue 27 of the Linux Gazette even.
Other sources:
Diskless HOWTO
XDMCP HOWTO
XDM-Xterm Mini-HOWTO
Linux Terminal Server Project
I'm suprised it made it past the Linux Gazette Editors actually, considering it was in Issue 27! You've got one year of HS left, but I suggest you try harder in college or someone will call you on plagiarism. I admit however that I didn't actually read the artice, as I'm not likely to find any new information.
I'm going to go back in my box and will think within the limits of my box: MS Sucks Linux Good I read too much Slashdot.
I am not a super X guru so I am recalling this from just being around X. Wouldn't this actually be an X server not an X terminal? Ian C.
That is 1.2 seconds a page, how fast does Powerpoint manage it?
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
About 2 sec. I doubt the Powerpoint displays the first slide immediately after reading the first few while StarOffice attempt to load the whole file.
 _
I doubt he's ever tried to load a 373 page Powerpoint file. That must be one looooong presentation (especially at at least 1min per slide)!.
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
This is for 4 tutorial lessons. Powerpoint loads it pretty fast, about 2 sec. May be it display the first page before finished reading it. StarOffice, on the other hand, attempt to load the whole file.
I just couldn't wait 5-10 minutes every time I start the lesson, and I don't want to purchase a seperate Powerpoint license for my laptop(it's freaking expensive) *sigh*
 _
they run KDE, StarOffice, Mozilla, etc. with no troubles.
/. /    |\/| |\/| |\/| / Run, Bill!
I'm not going to challenge the truthfullness, I believe you run them well. However, my 233Mhz 96MB box has some difficulty running Mozilla smoothly, and StarOffice requires 5-10 minutes to load a 373 pages Powerpoint slide.
Would you share with us how to optimize Mozilla and StarOffice in a slow machine as such?
Thanks!
 _
5-10 min to load your PPT. 1 minute (a doable time) to load star writer which is probably all these are doing
What comes first, finding a teacher or becoming a student?
I was referring to my house, where the only people who would even know what a packet sniffer is have my root password in the first place; I wouldn't consider using something insecure on a large network.
Thanks again for pointing this out, I think I'll work on getting ssh installed a little more quickly... :)
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suwain_2
Also, I have used PuTTY before; I agree, it's a great program.
Thanks again for the help!
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suwain_2
That's a good question. We know the admin well, although a Catholic high school doesn't strike me as the first place that would be willing to host a Linux box streaming pirated Korn songs... :)
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suwain_2
I would occasionally vnc between boxes on my LAN, it was reasonably fast. However, the colors were terrible. (I think I can change this.) However, it entailed keeping the VNC window open, and having an actual desktop.
Then I realized that I can "export" my display; so I can run applications on a faster computer, but display them from the convenience of my desktop. I get a nice, full-color display, and it's reasonably fast. Although it is still more bandwidth-intensive than I would have liked.
Now, if you want a real bandwidth story... My school has a T1. My friend managed to convince the network admin to let him put his Linux box in the "server room" as a streaming web server. He and I went out to the Windows 'boxen' and VNCed into it. But we soon realized that we were eating up *all* of the school's bandwidth... Even thought we were on the same LAN as the Linux box, the router would take our VNC connection, route it out through the school's T1, back in through the school's T1, to the box. The Linux box would reply back onto the T1, and then it would come back through the T1, onto the LAN, to my computer. Add the fact that it's *two* people doing this, and the fact that the computer's main purpose was a streaming MP3 server, and you can see why we weren't that popular... :-D
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suwain_2
... I'm biting my tongue on this one because Brazil has enormously more complex problems than finding an equitable way of providing cheap machines to public schools. But, I know regardless this is a good thing, and any executed ideas that proliferate open source to the rest of the Americas just adds another warning blip to the MS's marketing screens. It was a particularly considerable blow to MS exec's in the know to have heard when one of the largest cities in the world decided to phase Linux based platforms to service their 20 million plus inhabitants. The reason being was that Mexico City has broken the ice and many more cities in the Americas will follow suit. Personally, I'm brushing up on my Spanish... don't do the thing Proteges very well.
From the article: "Now for the interesting part, finding an old computer . . ."
Hmmmm, lets see. Under this monitor: an IBM PS2. Under that: an Amiga A 2000. Under that: an Apple IIe. Any of them work? Now that's the really interesting part.
from the debian x86 installation manual: "You must have at least 12MB of memory"
so you can forget about 8Mb...
I tried installing my 486 with redhat7, and it wouldn't even boot with 12Mb, luckily debian would.
I now have 16Mb but running X on it? I don't think so
jw
If not VNC (which I know is quite slow) then why not use Exceed. Yes, I know it's not free but I've had no problems with it so far.
-Cuyler
From a business perspective I would say PCs are the WORST thing to ever happen the the computer infrastructure. Back in the "bad old days" before terminals we had punched card interfaces; a complete nightmare. We then entered a nirvana like state for ten years or so where "dumb terminals" were the order of the day connected to remote servers; very little in the way of administration problems, all software installs under easy and obvious central control, net result: stability and satisfied users. Along comes the PC and within five years we have a complete organisational nightmare on our hands, no standardisation, users installing all sorts of crap and then blaming central support when it doesn't work, you know the score. And the benefits twenty years on? Our users spend two hours fussing over the font they should be using in Word documents, underlining bits, fannying around with nineteen million formatting features, attending training courses to learn fifteen million more, and all for internal memos which before would have been scribbled on a piece of paper in five minutes. Where exactly is the improvement here? Nurse! The flannel please!
I just wanted to let Patrick know that he put together a pretty good article, and he should keep up the linux hacking and the article writing.
On a side note, it's nice that the *nix's have this graphical server, but if they, and most specifially Linux, are going to make it in the desktop world, X needs to go. It's nothing short of a mess how these graphics card drivers have to deal with communicating between user and kernel space. X is an app, and what we really need is something on the system level to compete in the desktop market. But besides that, the article shows one of the better sides of X....Oh well, enough ranting...
"Karma can only be portioned out by the cosmos." -Homer Simpson
"The students are nuts if they think this handful of people can overthrow our Party and our government."
Wang Zhen, Chinese Communist official, May 1989
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
This could be a really nice and cheap solution for office workstations, especially in the days of the dot-bust industry. :)
:P
Think about it - take a decent box and load Linux onto it, make it the app server, and then have all the users run their stuff on their little 486 X terminal. Best of all, they can't get into the 'doze control panel and mess things up.
On the subject of the kiosks - I have actually seen these at the Circuit City store in Chattanooga. They have several of the flat panel display deals where you can search their site for products, etc. Any *NIX and X user with half a brain (and sufficient caffeine content) will immediately notice the style of drop-down menus and the mouse pointer heavily resembles X. Not sure if these are full-blown boxen, or just X terminals.. but in any case, neat.
yup, this is why we wrote svncviewer, an SVGA client for VNC. even the lowliest 386 with less than 4MB RAM could become an X terminal. it was small enough to fit into a single-floppy distribution. really useful in university labs with huge numbers of ancient machines.
ganesh
XFree really sucks with support for ISA bus and VLB bus cards. Most of those old clunky 486s use ISA and VLB bus. It is a real pisser to see 64K color display in Windows 3.1 but XFree can only do 8 bit 256 colors with the same card. XFree is brain dead with respect to any video card which isn't PCI bus. Some (very few) VLB bus cards can be used for greater than 256 colors with XFree, but only if the address bus on the card and the address bus on the motherboard can handle addresses higher than 16 MB. It is a damn shame that XFree can't make good use out of those old video cards and motherboards. Those oldies can look pretty good under MS Windows, but are a no-show for XFree86.
You are right. But unfortunately government wants to put machines in schools. If that is unavoidable, why not put cheap (or free, as in beer) machines like these and spend the money on teachers and books?
There is now a port of XFree86 to Cygwin. It's not all that mature... Xeyes doesn't work properly on my laptop...but if you need a Free X for Windows, use it, and I'm sure the team will be grateful for your bug reports.
http://www.cygwin.com/
--
Exactly. X allows me to use my new AMD box out in my fort from my crusty old Cyrix P150+ in the bedroom. It honestly is better than having two computers for the price of one, because the X terminal is much easier to maintain than a second PC. And since the Cyrix machine has a pretty good video card in it I honestly can't hardly tell the difference between sitting down at my actual machine. I even have gotten sound to work (with a little help from Gnome and esd).
Yeah, that makes sense. However, it's not too difficult to set up an X terminal using the formual in the article. Heck, I wish that I would have thought about using Debian base system as the base for my X terminals. I rolled my own, and it was quite painful.
As for your problem trusting your firewall. If your attacker is sniffing packets on your local area network you have bigger problems than the fact that they might eavesdrop on your X session. If that's the case then one of your devices has already been compromised.
Take care friend.
That is perhaps one of the most insightful things that I have ever heard on Slashdot. That was the original reason that I set up an X terminal as well. A buddy of mine was using them in his small business, and he wanted to know if sound would be possible. So I dug up some old hardware and I tried it out (it is).
When I was done I found that I had something useful for myself as well. Being able to use my fancy computer while I wasn't in my fort was very nice. Being able to introduce my wife to Linux without forcing her to go out into my fort (which she would then require I clean), was even nicer.
But mostly I did it to see how to do it. Come to think of it that's probably the prime motivation for nearly every piece of software on my home LAN.
Thanks for the conversation. It seems that every time I despair that /. has gone to the dogs something like this happens and my faith is restored.
Why use X, when you can do VNC. Terminal for any platform and you can resume your session from anywhere. http://www.uk.research.att.com/vnc/
Yes there's no disk spinning and with a 486 there's no CPU fan, but there's still the 'gentle hum' of the power supply.
We've got a few users in our dept with Tektronix X-terminals, and these are silent. They use black box transformer power supplies with no fans. These people value their silence, and would find even the hum of a fan annoying (especially on an old 486 which is going to start rattling and failing pretty soon! New PSU time...). It's hard to concentrate on pure mathematics with any distraction, they tell me!
So can anyone suggest silent power supplies that can be hooked up to a PC to make a truly silent X terminal? Has anyone done this? Can I just find a transformer with 9V and 5V and enough wattage and hack together a connector to the machine?
I've actually done the reverse - hacked a single PC power supply to drive three Tek Xterms! Noise wasn't a problem because there are other machines in that lab, but cost was. New Tek PSU's = about £80 = $100 each. Old 486 PSU = £free = $free. Fun hacking power cables off = priceless.
Baz
Relax, multiple xterms is the only reason Real Geeks run X anyway. ;)
There's a simple patch you can make to OpenSSH to enable the cipher 'none' (no encryption). I did that to let my PS/2 Model 55SX work reasonably for remote X applications, while keeping the familiar ssh interface.
If you want a 'pure' X terminal with no disk at all, you might as well send the X protocol straight over the network, no ssh involved. But if you have a mixed-use system with some local and some remote stuff, and you have a trusted network that isn't going to be eavesdropped, 'ssh -c none' is pretty neat. You can always go back to Blowfish or 3DES for connecting to stuff outside your local network.
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
We has one fellow here who created an ISO image on a bay-area PC (where we've got the CD burners) and stored the damn thing on his Desktop. Then he wondered why it took him 10 minutes to log on to the machine in his office.
-- Don't Tase me, bro!
...is a helicopter.
Now that we've clouded the issue with facts, let's all move along.
Bad Mojo
Bad Mojo
"If you can't win by reason, go for volume." -- Calvin
I created a bootrom and now the X-terminal boots from net. I use FreeBSD.
-- unix is for people without a social life - Patrick van Eijk
Unless that Dell laptop was in the sub $100 range, you're not even talking about the same thing.
What he's outlined is how to make good use of hardware that is affordable to almost anyone.
I once was asked by a non-profit group to help them make use of about 30 donated computers. (Donated by the NSA, no less - Beautiful IBM tempest cases and no hard drives.)
They had no budget. This would have been perfect for them.
Sure, in a perfect world, someone is going to donate 30 newish laptops with Wavelan cards, but I'm not going to hold my breath.
One of the major strong points about the whole Gnu/Linux movement is it's pricetag. Cutting hardware costs can put one more computer in front of one more user, who might not otherwise have a computer to use.
You really can't see this in a school or an adult training program or at a local library?
Doesn't anybody appreciate a good hack anymore?
Jim in Tokyo
Join the Great Fujisan Expedition!
-- My Weblog.
While this is certainly true, that old 486 would be hard pressed to run a more modern distro with KDE or Gnome and all of the bells and whistles that go along with it. On the other hand, my school had a bunch of old color X terminals in a nice quiet compsci lab, and I was able to use them to access my computer in my dorm room and run all of those neat things just fine. While a 486-based X terminal wouldn't be as fast as a more modern pc running the same apps locally(maybe) it certainly would be faster than running all of that stuff on the 486 itself - and thus a pretty decent allocation of otherwise obsolete hardware.
Ah... RS232 ports.
I can't believe people are abandoning support for RS-232 serial ports. I can't connect two computers using three wires and two USB ports. They're useless.
I fully believe if we ever make contact with an alien race, we will connect our computers via RS-232.
LinuxBIOS requires a Disk-On-Chip. I don't think it's possible without it. In addition, I don't think a Disk-On-Chip solution is possible without LinuxBIOS, as the only place you can typically install Flash is in the BIOS slot, and without a BIOS, well, you have to have LinuxBIOS.
Five years ago I came upon 3 (then old) labtam CT300 X terminal... Nice machine, 21 inch monitor etcetera. As time goes on the server that they are based on has moved up from a 486 to a pentium 200 (adequate, given enough ram), and will probably soon move up furthur.
.NET idea) after all.
The remarkable thing is, without significant administration, and no spare parts, they are ALL still working (made in about '91 remember) and in use. No software upgrades have come out since the comany stopped making them about 7 years ago, yet they run the latest mozilla, kde etc as fast as the server! Just upgrade the werver and the rest works like magic! (unforuntately enlightenment doesn't work very efficiently as it uses some new fangled x extensions, that are only 5-10 years old.)
Maybe there is something in this new fangled Network Computer (or hyper new innovative
Maybe the zero administration, low maintanence claims are true, you just need these!
Well I like the Roaming Profile thingy to some extent: it protects the user from losing things due to BSODs and is quite transparent to the user....It's not that transparent to users, since they have to wait quite a time whilist it does it. Let alone the utter mess they end up in if they log into more than one machine at once
.POL file examined). Even though it's prefectly possible for Windows to work with everything including Start Menu and USER.DAT only on a network drive.
:)
The big problem is the "writing" of the "My Documents" part. (You can redirect it to a mounted "drive" on your samba-server, i know, so it is fixable)
More to the point "My Documents" stays fixed. Some of the other registry keys Windows will rewrite back to the local HDD, regardless of what you do.
The problem is that it appears virtually impossible to disable the write back cacheing. (Especially if you want a
Very funny if nearly everyone leaves work at about 17:30.... It nearly takes half an hour to log out! (100Mps network...seen this personally)
This is hardly "user transparent"
StarOffice requires 5-10 minutes to load a 373 pages Powerpoint slide
That is 1.2 seconds a page, how fast does Powerpoint manage it?
X on a shared server is not a solution for high performance video games, or even for CPU hogging stuff like hires video playback or Flash playback or Java program.
Exactly how much corporate IT involves "high performance video games"? Sounds like the all too common confusion of someone's home PC with one used as a tool for actual work. If they need highres video then using a real cable TV network will work far better than trying to hack a computer network into working as one...
We then entered a nirvana like state for ten years or so where "dumb terminals" were the order of the day connected to remote servers; very little in the way of administration problems, all software installs under easy and obvious central control,
Also only needing to be installed a few times, typically once
net result: stability and satisfied users.
Also no need to specially shut down an if it breaks then you need someone with the skills of a porter to replace it.
Along comes the PC and within five years we have a complete organisational nightmare on our hands, no standardisation, users installing all sorts of crap and then blaming central support when it doesn't work, you know the score.
In addition you have a licencing nightmare, since all these programs have per seat rather than site licences let alone we end up with software apparently designed to be end user installed and virtually impossible to manage centrally!
...is a helicopter.
Or you could take a large gun fit wings, engines and a cockpit and wind up with an A10...
I don't think the re-using of old machinery is done by the common Joe-Sixpack: it will be done by knowledgable people (IT departements, geeks). Imagine: graphics card fried, no problem: some of the old machines will just serve as "organ donors".
Just because a machine is old does not mean it is useless. Indeed most nations would have no credible defence were it not for machines older than the people operating them. Thousands of people are flying right now in commercial aircraft built before Intel started making 486s. Let alone the number of machines who's design hasn't changed in decades even centuries.
In your argumentation everyone should be running a AMD Athlon 1.4GHz or a P-IV 1.4Ghz. Now, well: for most work this power is overkill (think secretary using Word, or Manager making a powerpoint presentation).
Not only is it complete overkill it's wasteful, effectivly they have an expensive machine for generating hot air. (If they need a machine to convert electricty to hot air then there are cheaper options.)
In your mind everyone should buy a computer every 6 months, which implies migration from one machine to another (data, preferences). This is a lot of work if you have a lot of data, eventually getting used to a new OS.
Which is very poor business sense, makes about as much sense as a bus company replacing all their busses every year or an airline getting new planes every 18 months.
that's because X *is* a bandwidth hog. It's certainly powerful and useful, but it is also quite bloated and bandwidth-heavy.
But nowhere near as much a hog as the Windows "write back" user profile mechanism.
Help stamp out obsolete technology: destroy an older computer.
:)
So when will you be demolishing your house and car, both of which are far older technology than any computer
I used to administer a network of Sun workstations. We had a Sparc 1+ (the speed demon of the group, but no graphics card, only serial for a VT220) a Sparc 1, and several Sun4 and Sun3 systems. Only the Sparcs and 5 of the Sun4s :) Those were the days...
had hard drives, the rest did all filesystem
stuff through nfs. The main problem was that the Sun3 computers run m68k processors and therefore would have required an entirely seperate set of applications to run them standalone. That, and the fact that the Sun3s only had 8 MB ram, where we were able to deck out the Sun4s with at least 32 MB and the Sparcs with 16MB. So the Sun3s were X-terminals of Sun4s. Of course our Sun3s only had black and white graphics, but better than not having anything. No one could tell that it was an X-terminal, everything was already so slow
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
If you have a sufficiently good machine, you may want to look into WeirdX or WiredX. Both are Java X servers, and at least WeirdX ran surprisingly well for me. WeirdX is GPLed.
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
That depends what you mean by "compress". Just using lbxproxy might be a good compromise.
sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
You should try the new ones. The 980's are very cool and realy fast. 80MB ram, 100Mb ethernet, very cool. They blow our older x-terminals (we have about 150 total at work) out of the water.
Oh, and they can work with Linux too, but ours connect to HP-UX machines (but they run apps off of linux servers).
Today's X apps don't run on a 486sx 25 very well.
OK, after you've booed yourself hoarse and thrown all the rotten tomatoes you have handy, is there a freely available Windows client for doing this? I'm currently running VNC but that is SLOW. I'm familiar with EXCEED but not willing to pay for it. Everything else I've found is in extreme alpha stages and not usable for daily use.
"The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson.
-- ;-)
Kuro5hin.org: where the good times never end.
I'd suggest doing a nfs mount of your apps so they can run on the PC...on a intranet, it should be pretty cool.
.NET, C# and whatever the X-box ends up morphing into.
This offloads processing power to the node -- a very, very good thing.
Another alternative would be java apps through a browser w/ the plugin.
This would give you a taste of the "Java Platform" -- central app servers and nodes that process applications downloaded/maintained on demand to network PCs -- something that Sun envisioned some 8 years ago and Microsoft is currently implementing with
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
The point of terminals like this is to have access to your computer from another room - you might want to get mozilla in your living room without bringing 4K$ of hardware with it. It isn't about sharing your computer with 200 people you don't even know.
---
They that quote Benjamin Franklin on liberty and safety deserve neither.
Oh yeah, any of these would be faster than reading a kernel image from a floppy disk. Also the machine would be less vulnerable to tampering.
Cryptnotic
My other first post is car post.
Excellent points. Actually, I do remember (dimly...I've had some wine tonight) running top on the 486, and it was pretty much all X and XSVGA-blah-blah-blah...it's been a few months (since upgraded the 486 running X over Ethernet to a 200MHz Pentium running apps directly) since running the configuration I mentioned in the post. But yeah, I think you're right: the compression & enryption asked too much. The main reason I went w/SSH was because of the easy setup of X forwarding. Well, that and a certain paranoia about the firewall I'm running my computers behind...might as well be safe rather than sorry, right?
Carousel is a lie!
It's all well and good to say don't reinvent the wheel, or read the howtos, but how do you get to learn about not only how to do something but all the pitfalls in doing so other than by doing the thing yourself and by screwing up in the process?
Carousel is a lie!
But I agree: doing something just to see how to do it is important. Sometimes you need to reinvent the wheel just so you can see how someone ever came across the whole idea of "round" in the first place.
Carousel is a lie!
This is how the Unix labs at the University of Queensland's CS school were setup until the end of last year (they now use "true" hardware-basd xterms AFAIK). The difference was that our xterms were truly dumb; they only ran the X server, everything else ran on a single dual-SPARC box (I think) and piped its output over the network to the relevant terminal.
Worked really well, unless you tried using it the day before a concurrent/communicating processes assignment was due...
Destroy your old AC -- render them permanently inoperative so no one else will have to put up with old obsolete trolling.
Obsolete trolling holds us ALL back! Destroy old ACs!
Modern day ACs shouldnt have "legacy" (old crap) relic features like sporks, hot grits, Heidi Wall or Natalie Portman posts, or DOS text mode FP's. These features are obsolete, and make ACs slower, less stable, and more costly.
Help stamp out obsolete trolling: destroy an older AC. The tech support workers of the world will thank you.
But fortuna was not with me: three weeks ago my workstation screen got busted (power-supply, *urks*). Then I remembered (well, I use it every day at work) that X-Terms could be used instead of logging in locally to the machine. It was some (slow, on the P120) surfing to find a HOW-TO and some hours of fiddling. I'm sure it is not the *best* setup aound, but it works. Everything is fast on my P-III and the P120 doesn't even swap when working.
Could I have done this with a Windows solution? Probably...but not without buying third party software (okay, I know about VNC....no flames needed). At least, I can do everything I need. X-terminals "converted" me: as soon as I have my screen back, I think I'll have some partitions to kill (or at least reduce...you know for the games *grin*)
See, so your so called "old technology" saved me from buying a new screen for the month the repair takes (yup, that's what they said at the shop...lazy worthless bunch!) and my work is done. Neat, isn't it?
Oh, and what goes for the comment about "bad video cards" in 486 machines. Ehm, it doesn't have to be the latest NVidia GeMaxiForce 3000. You know it is 2D most of the time, so think more like an older Matrox PCI card (very good in 2D!), with 8Meg video RAM you can easily display 1600x1200@24bit...My monitor doens't even do that.
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
Recycling old machines for more apropriate tasks is a noble cause IMHO. You give opportunities to people with a lesser income. Not everyone is able to buy a 1000$ machine (where I live, that's the about price of a low-end new machine) Don't count on second-hand machines (think P-II), they are in comparison overpriced to the new machines.
I'm not a tree-hugger, but think about the waste that is in older computers. Modern machines are built a bit more with environment-issues in mind (more easy to recyle the components), but older machines weren't at all. So dumping those machines just makes toxic landfill (lead for example) Of course, you can still argue that old machines use much more electricity.
I don't think the re-using of old machinery is done by the common Joe-Sixpack: it will be done by knowledgable people (IT departements, geeks). Imagine: graphics card fried, no problem: some of the old machines will just serve as "organ donors".
In your argumentation everyone should be running a AMD Athlon 1.4GHz or a P-IV 1.4Ghz. Now, well: for most work this power is overkill (think secretary using Word, or Manager making a powerpoint presentation). In your mind everyone should buy a computer every 6 months, which implies migration from one machine to another (data, preferences). This is a lot of work if you have a lot of data, eventually getting used to a new OS. I'd say: think again. A lot of people (even a lot of geeks) prefer to see a computer as an investment over a longer time. For me this period of time is 5 years. 1 year Top-machine, 2 years mid-machine and 3 years low-end machine. I am gratefull for 486 firewalls/router at home, and if I can get hold on another a nice fileserver will be implemented. Obsolete doens't mean unusable...it just means a bit more work (and fun) to continue to use it.
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
The only thing keeping me so far from doing this kind of thing has been the time. I know it's not real expensive, but finding the hardware, then doing the actual setup is pretty slow going. Especially since you want to make sure you get everything right the first time.
This kind of thing bothers me. In 95 I did a Linux install which I moved a 486/25 from Win 3.1 to Linux. Back then you did these things the hard way, compiling it yourself.
We did this to use as, you guessed it, an X-Term for our Vaxes. Then, Xwin ran perfectly (8MB ram, i beleive), no gnome, no kde, just an X-term..
This raises the question...Why would XFree give bad performance TODAY on the same hardware, or is it just a matter of perceptions based of a preconceived notion of what good performace is?
Burn Hollywood Burn
you know, my more unixy friends have been extolling the wonders of xwindows to me for years, and i just started playing around with it recently. fun stuff.
anyhow, i'm using an old powermac 5200 as a combination tv/mp3 player/xterm for the bedroom. if you're interested, i wrote a brief document on how i set everything up. please be kind - it's a cable modem.
--saint----
Dude... I, too, am a time-traveller who remembers the nirvana-like experience of leaving my punch card machine and paper-tape machine for the simplicity of a terminals and, eventually, desktop PCs.
While having all that power on your desk is seductive, it's been a management nightmare in large organizations. Given the choice between managing software distribution to 10,000 PCs versus 10,000 net-terminals (sucking from a few servers), I'll scrap the PCs anyday!!
Unfortunately, the net-terminal evolution has not been very successful for typical corporate-drone environments. This is why the PC software industry has worked semi-hard at making PC management more net-terminal-like - think Novell ZEN, Windoze terminals, etc.
CrazyLegs
"Pork!!" said the Fish, and we all laughed.
I have yet to see a LTSP article here on slashdot. The K12LTSP story was okay but it was not phrased in such as way that people would flock to help ltsp development. the only reason i went to irc.openprojects.net #ltsp was because i saw it in Linux Journal and went to the website (www.ltsp.org).
What comes first, finding a teacher or becoming a student?
I personally don't think it's a huge deal on an internal network if you can trust the people; I use telnet on some of my internal 'boxen' - we've got a switch, and if someone's smart enough to get through my firewall and run a packet sniffer, then they can probably see that I've done nothing to secure any of the computers. Granted, now that I'm looking at reconfiguring everythign to allow outside access to my box, I'm having second thoughts....
________________________________________________
________________________________________________
suwain_2
I know that's true, but I think the original quote was made by some general well before helicopters were a big deal. It just sounded cool.
Anyway, a laptop is actually more like a helicopter than an ancient 486 is. :)
Likewise, the best way to remotely use a good computer is another good computer; not some POS 486 that should be used as a firewall. (Along with its 16-bit ISA 512K 800x600 graphics card and a fuzzy dim monitor.)
I use a laptop that I got cheap from the Dell factory outlet for this purpose. It is big and heavy with a huge, bright display and a relatively wimpy Celeron processor. I stuck a wavelan card in it and loaded most everything from the Red Hat 7.1 distro on it. No special installation steps needed.
I run web browsing and similar tasks locally (with snappy performance), and I use it as an X-terminal for editing and other tasks that need to use the files on my main machine. It works untethered anywhere in the house, too, due to the wireless network. (Don't forget to use ssh to start X sessions since the 802.11 encryption is "questionable".)
"The rest of the world has MOVED ON"? Actually, I'd be more inclined to saying that MOST of the world is still waiting to own their first PC. Do someone a favour and give them your old PC and show them how to use it. If the average /.er is like me, they know AT LEAST one person who, for whatever reason, doesn't have enough disposable income to buy one.
If nothing else, it'll give you the warm-fuzzies.
I could imagine one perfectly good use for cheap X terminals, and that's where money and computers are scarce. You could equip a complete computer lab in a 3.d world high school. Spend money on a fast, decent server, and set up obsolete HW as xterminals. Instead of the lab having 3-4 machines and kids getting one hour of use per week, it now has 20 machines, and the kids get 5 hours per week.
-- Another senseless waste of fine bytes.
Be nice if details on setting up an ssh link between the two were included so that:
1. The X link is compressed.
2. The X link is encrypted.
That way we'd have the ultimate fast/secure connection, and it'd be a lot handier for folks that want to use their X Terminal from anywhere on the 'net...
Generally, a good article though. Note the age of the author - good stuff!
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
I liked this better: www.solucorp.qc.ca/xterminals/
especially the nice setup.sh script.
I used this kind of setup in a project at some company I worked for one time, to support the warehouse management application I had written (*please* don't ask why a warehouse management app needed X... thank you). Beefed-up server (multi-processor, RAID, the works) and 10 diskless terminals w/ remote boot and root via NFS. And RedHat Linux 6.2.
Worked like a charm. The terminals were all cheapo 133 MHz AMD's with S3 graphics cards, worthless for pretty much anything else. Did so well as X terminals, they are still using them today. Of course, they were all on 100 Mb Ethernet though...
I did this with Linux 1.X- hooked a bunch of PCs up to be X terminals for our SGI. Worked swimmingly and really cut down my workload. Everything was great until some dork in Network operations found out we were using X11 across the "enterprise network". I learned something very important during the week following this revelation- X terminals are like Unix- they suffer from a bad name.
Cook up something like the SunRay- give it a funky LCD display (not included) and tie it to some proprietary server software and everyone thinks it's great. Do the same thing with X and "it's a bandwidth hog", "user's will never be able to figure it out" and on and on.
Non- Unix users don't give a damn about the power of X. They don't get why it's useful or appreciate the advantages. They like things they have to pay extra for or tie them down to a specific architecture- we in turn don't understand them or this attitude.
So, I did this in my house. My Cyrix 200MHZ became an X terminal for my kids to play tuxracer and cruise the net. Just don't tell them what's going on. Sell it at work the same way- don't say squat- just do it and spend the extra money on cool toys.
The first is at the Retriever Weekly, the college newspaper for UMBC. We have 3 P-90s w/ 16M RAM and S3 virge cards running as X-terminals from a P-II 300 w/ 128M RAM. It works great; they run KDE, StarOffice, Mozilla, etc. with no troubles. The same machines were unusable with Win98 on them.
The second is in a volunteer computer lab in Baltimore city at the Agape house (http://linux.umbc.edu/gits). Most of the machines there are 486s with 16M RAM, so they use IceWM and work just fine from a dual Celeron 400 w/ 256M RAM. Jeff Covey, the main person behind this lab, has set them up to netboot using the Linux Terminal Server Project (http://www.ltsp.org). The difference in noise level between 8 486s running with and without hard drives is very noticable! I'm hoping to set up the machines at the newspaper this way soon.
Sotto la panca, la capra crepa
WMBC freeform/independent online radio.
I'm posting this on a 486DX2/66 with 16 megs of RAM and a 1MB VESA video card...
It runs Xfree 4.. and uses esound for sound across the network
These things works great. My sister uses one, and I have a second so I can kill X when it locks up my good computer (which the X terms run their apps on)
If you can stomach 640x480 at 8bit... a 386 will do that fine too!
Beauty of these is the sound level... jam the fan in your 486's powersupply, and it's 100% silent!
Using config files based on MAC adresses works really great too. The machine boots, and checks if it has an existing X config file named as it's MAC address. If not, it runs xf86config, gets you to set the initial settings, and saves it for future use.
A p150 with a good video card, even on 10Mbit feels like the local machine. It's really nice.
Back in the day when 3/486 machines were more expensive and there were tons of 286 boxes readily at hand, I used to experiment a lot with TCP/IP networking using 286 boxes running DOS with Microsoft's LanManager Client (still available for free at Microsoft, btw.) connecting to Samba shares and telnetting into my cherished Linux (1.0 and 1.2 kernel) box from all around the house. 3C501 10base2 ethernet cards (eeek!) were $2.50 a pound at the local surplus store and life was grand.
It seemed to me at the time that what was really needed was a good, free X Terminal package to run on older boxes themselves not capable of running Linux.
These days, '486 hardware is the 'low end' and it might not be as important as it once was to use the really slow boxes (they're a waste of electricity to leave on, some would say) but it seems like ridiculous overkill to run a Linux kernel on something as simple as an X Terminal. The services running can be cut way back, etc. but it's still overkill for the machine to need a processor with Memory management (386 or greater) when even simpler hardware should work fine.
Theres nothing quite like the horror of running X on a 2MB M68000-powered black & white NCD X Terminal.
the 19" monochrome monitor looks cool in an old-skool way, but its unbelieveably slow.
After i bought this machine, i was hit with the shocking realisation that i am indeed a hopeless *NIX geek, and there is no going back.
I gots ta ding a ding dang my dang a long ling long
You can download STunnel and do this on your own, it's definitely not a hard task to do.
Want Root?
...for these X terminals would be to be put in public schools here in Brazil. Some public schools don't have even a single PC. If we could make people donate their old hardware to these schools, and buy a powerfull machine as the server, we could make some computer labs, and better, introduce young people to GNU/Linux. Here in my state, in the south of Brazil, public schools are already using preferentialy GNU/Linux, but that's another story.
:) )
But the people who should know how to do this are the responsibles for the schools' machines, most of the slashdot crowd had already thought and learned how to do that.
The bad thing is that most 486 didn't have good videocards, and the performance (no XAA?) of XFree86 with ISA cards is not great, even as an X-terminal only. I remember the performance of XFree with my Trident VLB, which sucked, even for that time. The only nice card in a 486 with XFree I used was a S3 VLB, but those are hard to find, even used, of course.
It would also be great if those IDE "disks" based on flash memory were cheaper. We could make very silent, self-sufficient (no network or floppy boot) machines. The devices don't even need a large memory, or "disk". Good to make some "NCs" (fancy name for something that exists for at least 10 years in the X world
I thought that we had gotten away from this by the early '90s when PCs became common and powerful enough that you could operate relatively comfortably without the support of some big iron. After all, wasn't the whole big-iron-to-desktop transition about self-empowerment? I thought so, because I didn't have to worry about pissing off some sysop when I compiled my newest Linux kernel on my 386 with 8 megs of RAM.
But now we have this crap about creating X terminals now. Don't we learn anything? We have all immensely enjoyed the personal freedom accorded to us by having enough local processing power to get the job done, no matter how many times the remote server crashes and burns. Besides, I have better ways to allocate my network's bandwidth than with a ton of X packets. Like, say, playing Quake III or browsing the web, or transfering files to my Windows 98 box from my NT server.
Plus, we are confronted with the fact that 486s probably won't have very nice video cards to begin with, so you can pretty much kiss a decent-looking display goodbye.
Is your company running tools written by ma