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Chinese Government Further Restricts Internet Cafes
bwhalen writes: "Once again, China is demonstrating how much they love their citizens to have open communication. They have closed/demanded restructuring of a few thousand Internet Cafes; here's the story." Previous stories on China make clear that the Chinese government and the Chinese citizenry don't see eye-to-eye on how this whole Internet thing should work.
This was posted here a while ago, though it didn't make the main page.
You are very much mistaken.
Your looking at the empty half of the glass. Yes the Chinese government tries to restrict internet content, but even though the close down 2000 cafes, there are 50,000 cafes open. Yes, you have to have web pages filtered for content, but stuff manages to get through anyway. It's not a libertarian's paradise, but it isn't North Korea or Afganistan where they ban the internet altogether. And it *is* opening up. People who say otherwise really don't have a sense for how bad things were a generation ago.
True, none of my relatives have been kidnapped and executed. However, it is also true that very few people in China have had their relatives kidnapped and executed. In fact, the execution rate in China is lower than in some states which have death penalty.
Does that mean that, if we were living in China, we should also "think about how lucky we are to have what we do"?
Does that mean that, if we were living in China, we should also "think about how lucky we are to have what we do"?
It means that in China, there is no legally protected right to safely complain about anything. (For example, "free Mumia.") Political expression is prohibited by law, whenever the authorities care to enforce it. Can you even imagine what that would be like? We wouldn't be having this conversation.
That may have been true in 1948, but today communism is pretty much dead in China.
It occurred to me that this is an excellent opportunity to prove one way or another whether technology can resolve a difficult geopolitical issue. I.E., Bypassing an isolationist government to reach its people with a two way communication using the Internet.
Obviously we have to bypass anything the Chinese government can control. That means we have until 2008 to develop a wireless - satellite system where the ISP's servers are on the satellite instead of on the ground. And it has to be cost effective to the average citizen in China.
How you get the signal to earth is not the real problem. The problem is how you get the signal from the earth back to the satellite and do it in such a way that the Chinese government is not capable of controlling it.
That is a very difficult problem but I'm sure you can solve it. You will be publically graded on your solution in 2008 and the person(s) with the best solution will probably become a multimillionare, and maybe win the Nobel Peace Prize. Regardless you will definitely get more than 15 minutes of fame. And the knowledge and pride in knowing you have solved one of the most difficult geopolitical problems facing democratic societies today.
I cannot speak for Slashdot but it would be nice to have volunteers from their staff to grade the solutions. Grading should be on the basis of how
cost effective it is and how much of the Internet it allows the average Chinese to access.
Get going....see you in 2008. (Solutions sooner are also accepted.)
...bellyaching about the disintegration of Western society which happens here on /., to think about how lucky we are to have what
we do.
Sure, there are disputes here about who can write what software, but a country with laws against "socially destabilizing content," however healthy and progressive its current society, is only a few changes of leaders away from being a Stalinist hell. Sometimes (like now in China) you get good kings and all's well, but when you happen to get bad ones (and you will), they'll have the tools to stay in power.
Right now, in the west, dissent from the mainstream is thoroughly marginalized, but that's because the mainstream is, all in all, pretty nice. (Had a good breakfast this morning? How many of your relatives have been kidnapped and executed by state police? See a lot of treason arrests?) The right to disseminate information is what provides the essential feedback mechanism which preserves that condition. If the mainstream ever got worse, dissent would start looking a lot more normal. (And has, repeatedly, in the past.)
And I'll deviate from Slashdot patterns in a second way: I'm glad to have journalists around, flighty influence-wielding scandal-mongers though most of them may be. They are people with a direct, personal financial interest - expressed as lobbying and political influence - in keeping this essential right alive.
Now if they can only get the remaining 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the servers to not relay. THAT GOES TO YOU TOO, HONG KONG AND TAIWAN!
--
WolfSkunks for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.keenspace.com";
--
# Canmephians for a better Linux Kernel
$Stalag99{"URL"}="http://stalag99.net";
Well, while I see people mentioning that the Olympics might help the situation in China, I can only point out another similarly repressive regime hosted the 1936 Olympics. The Olympics are just a marketing gimmick and a bunch of games not a political statement. They don't have magical powers to overthrow an evil dictatorship. The people of China will see what their government wants them to see at the Olympics. Anything on TV will be censored and most likely only include events that Chinese athletes win, etc.
New ideas are an extremely destabilizing thing in such a large and closed society. It's not so much that the ideas themselves are evil, as it is that the introduction of them at all.
This has the potential to destroy China's status quo. What would happen if everyone in China suddenly wanted a Porsche, or even just wanted ice cream? Can you imagine a billion people finding the internet? What happens when these people learn about miranda rights? Freedom of speech? Or, more likely, see all of the hardcore pornography..
Imagine going your whole life without ever seeing pornography until you were.. 27. You'd cream your pants instantly. Now, imagine the entire population did that. It'd be sheer chaos!
The only choice they have is oppression. They don't know what else to do. The internet will revolutionize China, but it won't be pretty.
"It is better to build bridges, than walls."
Sometimes I wonder why leaders give such obviously empty reasons ...
RFC2119
I do seem to recall that in recent history of a chineese neighbor, wearing glasses was an offense punishable by death. I wouldn't joke about it too much, it's not that improbable that we'll see it on the nightly news in the near future.
--Dan
During the Cold War, the US ran a service called "Radio Free Europe" for providing uncensored news to people in countries behind the Iron Curtain. Perhaps when prices come down, the West should organize a wireless network for the use of people in China, North Korea, etc.
...perhaps China will no longer be a totalitarian dictatorship by the time 2008 rolls around?
:-).
It's not likely, but y'never know. Meanwhile, I do wish the Chinese people the best of luck in their hunt for foreign proxy servers
---
I visited Beijing, China for approximately 6 weeks during the spring of 2000. I used various Internet cafes to check my e-mail, browse the web, and use RealVideo. In some cafes I found that www.cnn.com was blocked, in others it was wide open. I think that the cafes usually found a way to get around the censorship if they wanted to.
An important thing to remember is that in China there are one set of rules for foreigners, one set of rules for regular citizens, and one set of rules for Communist party members. Foreigners and party members can probably look at any content they want. Only the proles must be shielded from the indecent outside world.
My observation of Chinese college students, however, indicates that they are far more fascinated with the Internet than American college students. One local Internet cafe charged 5 renminbi (3 renminbi could buy you a plate of dumplings next door) per hour for Internet access. Students would be there at all hours to send e-mail to friends in other cities and to correspond with people they had never met. Recently some auction sites were becoming popular.
The chinese government is in a difficult position as they want the educated class to be able to use technology for productive purposes. However, they do not want the educated class to be poisoned by outside ideas.
Stuart Eichert
Stuart Eichert
newsflash: communist governments censor their citizens
/.'ers whine when someone posts something about alan cox 24 hours late...
really?
...damn, and
Good question. I don't know the whole answer, but there are some points that I think that contribute:
I visited southern China briefly once, and to my pampered Western eyes it was a hellhole. The pollution was unlike anything I had experienced, the poverty everywhere I looked, the polarized distribution of wealth far more stark than anything I've ever seen, the political corruption that created that division obvious (the number of Mercedes-Benzes with military numberplates, and the fact that the only properly constructed buildings were either built by foriegn multinationals or the Army gives it away pretty quickly). While the rapid improvement in living standards was undoubtedly there (nobody seemed to be starving, and many of the poor farmers seemed to be acquiring television sets and refrigerators), we see the relative poverty, not the improvement.
As far as political freedom goes - the part I visited, sure, the obvious signs of political oppression have been toned down. But when you see the place where hundreds of Falun Gong protestors were apparently arrested and carted off to prison camps, again, you don't see the improvement from the days of the Cultural Revolution, you compare it to your own country where such arrests and indefinite detention for peaceful political protest would be unthinkable.
Go you big red fire engine!
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Still, this in itself does not make them "the worst". Certainly not very good, but there are places that are worse (eg Afghanistan, which recently recieved some money from the US)
This is nonsense. Christianity is not banned in China.
There is no real religious or political freedom possible in China right now,
You make it sound as though China is unique with this property. On the contrary, Afghanistan, and several of the Arab countries (Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran) are considerably worse.
China is the world's worst offender in human rights, outdone in degree to be sure by atrocious places like Sudan,
You just contradicted yourself. And Sudan is not the only counter-example (again, see Iran, Afghanistan, and Iraq)
but far and away the world leader in bringing misery to human lives in volume.
That's a silly criterion, because you're confusing their high poplulation with their human rights record. Indeed, on that scale, the US is probably worse than any other industrialised nation.
Well, if you remember Chinese history, this is EXACTLY what you don't want. There are billions of people there. A revolution would be a big huge gamble! A bloody one would likely involve millions of deaths.
Better to have a peaceful revolution, slowly.
Pan
I said no... but I missed and it came out yes.
Everybody could bring Iridium phones and plug their laptops into them and dial AOL or whatever from china. THAT would be cool. I mean, if Iridium was still around.
Iridium is very much alive and kicking.
Unfortunately they only offer data services at 2400 bps, so you're not going to be doing a lot of web surfing on that connection.
Besides which, satellite communications equipment is just as likely to get you into trouble as looking at verboten sites...
---------------------------------------------
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
WE do the sat connection magic for work all the time -- thats why I chimed in on the Iridium. We just got our first Iridium system last week and its pretty neat except for the low transmission speed.
Its much better than Globalstar has been for us.
And making calls from random places is very cool!..
---------------------------------------------
Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
> Do they plan to only allow unfettered access to the athletes?
Wasn't athlete's internet access being restricted during the last olympics? I seem to remember someone trying to update his/her homepage and being told that he couldn't - That his experiences were the property of whatever media company had bought the rights.
Of course, I'm probably mistaken...
Cheers.
Jim in Tokyo
MMDC Mobile Media
-- My Weblog.
______________________________
rooooar
A good term for states that allow their citizens to conduct economic activities nearly unfettered but prohibit any political dissent is fascism. Arbitrary enforcement of laws enacted without any kind of legitimate legislative process is also a prominant feature of fascist governments.
We constantly refer to China as a Communist country, but with its Socialist public institutions and centrally planned economy rotting faster each day, I think it makes more sense to start comparing it to Mussolini's or Franco's regime.
/*For all we know, it could be because they used pirated software. */
AHAHAHAHAHAAH!!!! WOOOOO!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAhahahahaahHAHAHAHAH!
'tears up' HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
PIRATED SOFTWARE?
In CHINA??
NOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ahahahahaahahahHAAHAHHAHAHAHAahahahaha
that's the best fucking laugh I've had in a couple weeks.
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
So why do many people think that China is the worst place on earth?
Oh, just because they kill people who disagree with the government, especially those that spread "subversive" ideas like Chrisitianity. There is no real religious or political freedom possible in China right now, despite the Chinese government's propaganda to the contrary. China is the world's worst offender in human rights, outdone in degree to be sure by atrocious places like Sudan, but far and away the world leader in bringing misery to human lives in volume.
China should not be treated as a respectable member of the international comunity until it begins to act respectably. (And, yes, I think we should never have granted PNR to the Chinese.)
"The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last
Easy: They *bought* it with illegal camaign contributions, doantions, and "sales" of Chinese building materials through the Clintons and their cronies: Look at these links for more info
"The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last
This is nonsense. Christianity is not banned in China.
:-) But seriously, it's that important - give it a read...
Sorry, but it's your comment that seems to be rooted in nonsense. Christianity is indeed officially banned in China. House churches are outlawed, and only the decidedly non-Christian "Three Self" churches are allowed. Chinese prisons are, unfortunately, filled with those that tried to promote real Christian churches as an alternative. Those lucky enough to avoid prison find that they lose their jobs and "have no legal identity anymore" - a notable problem in a bureaucratic Communist society.
I recommend anyone interested in understanding the situation to read two things: First, this recent article about what's really going on with churches in China, and then, for the broader picture of why Communism and Christianity must be in opposition, the excellent book Witness, by the late former Communist Whittaker Chambers. (Just read the reviews, if nothing else - if you can possibly be open-minded about anything, they'll make you want to read the book, which is quite possibly the most influential autobiography of the past few centuries. Oh, and remember that the fall of the Soviet Union and the opening of KGB records proved Chambers absolutely truthful and correct.
IMHO, no one should be allowed to post any sort of opinion on Communism until they've read Witness.
"The future's good and the present is nothing to sneeze at." - Roblimo's last
Actually this is a good argument for MFN.
The flow of Western ideas will follow the flow of Western capital. If China wants to compete with the US in markets other than 'cheapest labor items', they will have to adopt the Internet and digital economy fully.
Wire the entire nation and they will not be able to stop the flow of information into, out of and within their borders.
That information/idea flow, more than anything else, will help change China for the better.
MFN would help our large telecom suppliers (Lucent, Nortel [yes, I know they are Canadian], Uniphase, Corning, Cisco and the like) bid favorably on China's large network infrastructure plans. Unicom is spending a LOT of money on their network.
--
Charles E. Hill
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
First of all, the article didn't say WHY the 2000 (out of 58000) Internet cafés had been shut down. For all we know, it could be because they used pirated software.
Second, the CNN article says:
"China's laws broadly ban "socially destabilizing content," breaches of public security, "divulging state secrets" and Internet pornography."
How is that different from the.. say.. US laws? Nazi propaganda is socially destabilizing content and is forbidded in many western countries. Communism was considered destabilizing content and was forbidded in the USA for many years. etc. etc.
Third:
"Authorities closely monitor Web site content in search for buzzwords such as Taiwan, Tibet and the banned spiritual group Falun Gong, Web executives say."
Yeah? Well, the Echolon system and the NSA and CIA closely monitor *ALL* electronic traffic in search for buzzwords such as bomb, C4, Bill Clinton etc.
Could we get a little less US propaganda in the news and a little more of the ACTUAL facts. I'd like to know FACTS about why these Internet cafés were shut down. I don't doubt that it had to do with censorship but I didn't see any facts in the story.
China not a Free Nation!
"I'm shocked," sayz W.
Film at 11!
- - - - -
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.
Ahh, they're just craking down on the launch point of the Code Red Worm...
:)
Think about it. In theory, the launch point of the worm should be traceable. The first version of the worm generated IP addresses with a single seed number... Therefore you should be able to determine the first 100 adresses on that list. The worm also makes no attempts to hide itself in the logs, so on those first 100 machines, you SHOULD be able to see an IP address before all the others that ISN'T in that list. It's traceable by IP.
So where would you launch this from? An internet cafe seems like a good choice... Wander in and sit down, insert a CD and start your own little mini web server, then remotely access a site with the known flaw and infect it.
It may take a few links in the chain, but you should be able to track down where the worm started from. I'm sure this is being done right now.
Of course, that's assuming the worm actually CAME from China, as it claimed to...
Remember the Vietnam war? Wasn't it president Johnson who engaged in some fake boat sinking incident to kick-start it? (forgot the exact details) Why did we lose the war against the North, who were so little in numbers compared to that of ours? Because the American people OPPOSED it that's why. So to prevent such a thing from happening again Uncle Sam has decided that it's in our best interest to brainwash the average Joe Blow to hate China as much as possible.
Ever heard of something called the Tet Offensive? All the VC troops were killed at that point. The only North Vietnamese soldiers left were the regular infantry and they were nothing compared to the VC. We could have won easily if it wasn't for all those hippies and pinko anchors.
But in real life there is no true "good guy" or "bad guy". Everybody looks out for their own interests and think they are doing the right thing. We all have our points of view. What you see from your backyard is not the same as what I see in my own backyard.
Yes there is such a thing as true evil. Ever heard of Stalin? Pol Pot? Hitler? Mao? Castro? Dahmer?
Good case in point: the U.S. spyplane crash in China. Suppose it had been a Chinese spyplane flying over the coast of California. Suppose they had landed at LAX without getting permission from us. How do you think Mr. Bush would have reacted?
Funny, but it wasn't a spy plane. It was a reconnasance plane. Totally different there boy. It was over international waters, the commi pilot was known for getting as close as possible to all types of planes in the area (commercial and cargo included) and had been reprimanded several times in the past for it. We radio'd telling what the commi pilot did and asked for permission to land then said we had to make an emergency landing. We offered to recover the chinese pilot who died in the horseshit but of course the commies refused. Oh yeah, and I got news for you, other countries run reconnasance flights against us!
So what does the U.S. really want out of China? I'll tell you. Our government would love it if China suffers the same fate of USSR: break up into many tiny pieces. When that happens the goold ol' US of A will have become the only standing world super-power. We'd have majority voting power in Nato, and thus we will have controlled basically the entire planet. We will have elevated from "Big Brother" to "Pimp Daddy" with nobody to challenge us. Absolute Power my friends is what the U.S. is after.
NATO is nothing. NATO is obsolete. It has been for decades now. The US is secondary to the Europeans in NATO. We shouldn't even be in NATO or the UN. Its clear you mean the UN but you obviously don't know the difference. Yeah we might not be perfect, but then why have millions of people fled Eastern Europe, China and Cuba to escape communist oppression to live in the US? We're still better than communism.
You're just a conformist rebel. It's rather obvious you don't yet have A Clue by your ID# and URL in there. Oh yeah, and you have the intelligence of a preteen nigerian girl.
Its clear you're a troll. Your ID# proves it along with your conformist rebel sophistry. Oh yeah, we're not a democracy; we're a Constitutional Republic.
Indeed, it isn't as bad as it appears. Only a fraction of the inspected places got shut down. It could only be for faulty wiring on the appliances I hope. ;-)
Sites that are intentionally "subsersive" or pose "direct threat" (i.e. "falungong.com" or whatever) are probably not that popular with foreigners anyway.
there is no thing
what else could you want?
Maybe it was different in YOUR part of Beijing, but...
* There are gay bars in Beijing. Specifically "jin ba wang" and "hudie" ( I think those are the names). One has a sign outside it that says "tongzhi jiu ba" (comrade ("gay") bar). Another place "ban meng" is/was (heard it closed down) a trendy place whose proprietoress was a well known transgender dancer.
* More than once, in clubs in Beijing, I was approached by men who wanted to dance,etc. I am male.
* Near Peking University (across the street from Tu shu cheng) there is a large famous male brothel (or so it is rumurored). There is also supposed to be a lot of cruising at a park outside the west gate of Peking University
The government doesn't have an ax to grind with homosexuals. /PERCIEVED/ as homosexual in Beijing could land you in a state reprogramming center.
Things aren't very free. Making out with your boyfriend in public is asking for trouble.
Things are much free-er in the US/San Francisco.
BUT, it seems quite a stretch to say simply being
Can you tell me where you get this information? It seems that there is a good deal of bad information on China out there -- and since everyone believes or wants to believe that China is the evil empire, the rumors spread fast. (regardless of the truth either way). Maybe things have changed since I've been in Beijing.
there is no thing
what else could you want?
One of the biggest internet cafes I've seen -- it's located on the south end of Peking University. I haven't been back in more than a year, but I think it's pretty much taken control of the entire street. (it's a good location, too). (some of it was recently torn down for new construction or something).
A page of pictures
more pictures
the about-us page :
Remember to bring a grain or two of salt, but translated, some of the interesting things are
They have 1800 computers (started with 25)
They have 20Mbit connectivity (DDN direct line?)
16,000 users/daily
open 24 hours
have trained 1,800 people
have been reported on by 2300 different media organizations.
What people do at them
I remember the most common activity was playing games. Lots of folks playing some weird sniper game and starcraft. At night, always a fool or two in the back flipping between tasks/peeping porno.
Lots of BBS/bulletin board action now, I hear...
Hmmm lastly, last time I checked, the graduate student dorms (and possibly some of the undergrad dorms) at Peking University had ethernet that connected to a internal China network. People sometimes use a program called ProxyHunter to find ways out of the internal network.
Damn, when I first came in 1998, Feiyu was a crappy little place where there were 25 computers and a not-so-knowledgable staff. Things have changed, I guess.
there is no thing
what else could you want?
They should move the Olympics to the US so we can kidnap some more foreign nationals (Kinda puts things in perspective, doesn't it?)
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
I agree with you, in that the Olympics should not be considered pro human rights. The IOC is a private, elitist group that is looking out solely for its bottom line. As such, it should be treated like any other corporation.
The Olympics receives more attention than it deserves, and if I still watched television (which I do not), I would watch something else.
Give me liberty, or give me death!
So, I doubt the IOC even seriously considered the human rights angle, but just made noises about human rights so watchdog groups would be happy.
While I have no illutions about IOC not being corrupt, I think this was the best thing that could happen to China. So far, only human rights groups and people who wanted cheap labor has had their eyes on China. Now they will get attention from everyone for several years, and they won't be able to hush thing down as easily. The only thing I'm wondering is why they want to do this to themselves, and why the Tibetian people didn't want it to happen. Now they'll get a chance to be in the news every week.
There wasn't any obvious filtering of my content (unless you count slow speed).
>>how this whole Internet thing should work.
Somewhat like the US government and its citizens?
jalalski
.sig available on 'Need To Know' basis only!
::Grainy movies of chinese trying to acces the internet, all coming up 404:: Cafe User #1: Smebody set us up the firewall! Cafe User #1: We get signal! Cafe User #2: Main Screen Turn on! Govt. Censor: All Your Packets are belong to us!!! Cafe User #2: NOO! Govt Censor: You have no chance to access net, make your time. ha. ha. ha. Cafe USER #2: Release IP tunneling, for great justice!
Just on point were we can compare China and the USA, both countries have death penalty, even if not on all states, and this is the supposedly most advanced country in the World. And do you believe the law will be really repealed? Why it should be? The RIAA is the one paying big amounts of money to get the law passed, and *most* people among the voters don't know about the DMCA and it's implications, so they will keep voting the ones that passed the DMCA while getting their pockets full.
Has it occured to anyone that far from restricting the export of strong encryption, that maybe we should be fostering it? I agree with DOD that encryption is a weapon. I'm just thinking the Chinese people might use it more dangerously against their own government than their government could use it against us. After all, we get most of our usefull intel from satellite imagery. Let's send the Chinese tools so their government can't track them, and see what happens.
Really? When did Jiang Zemin last stand for election? Who did he run against? What were their main areas of contention?
The answers, in case you do not know is that he was elected the head of the communist party by communist party members. He did not face any opposition. He was not elected by the people. The people had no choice.
Tell me who was sentenced to death due to advocating access free internet?
I did not say anyone had. I said they could. People are routinely executed for PEACEFUL political opposition. Consider, for example, the countless Tibetan monks that have been jailed, exiled, and executed from the time the Chinese occupation of Tibet began until this very day. Of course, there is also the painful example of Tienanmen Square where peaceful protesters were murdered and jailed.
Your comparison to G8 is absurd. The protesters in Genoa are violent, sometimes in the extreme.
This is the same in China. I know, because I am form china. You know nothing and your brain is full of crap from western propaganda.
Admit that, what you say about China are all from what western media told you. And you cannot tell the true from the false, because you have never had chance lived in both states among the PEOPLE to understand them.
Sorry, no. I cannot admit that. I have, as I mentioned above, spent time in both states among the PEOPLE. And, in order for any of your complaints about Western media to hold any water, you have to provide some semblance of motivation for Western media to bash China.
Why would Western media do that? They have nothing at all to gain. They are motivated to do exactly the opposite because iif they want to do business in China, they better not criticize the Chinese government.
In short, you are either the most ignorant Chinese person to visit America or you are a communist party stooge. Which is it?
I did not suggest that the dead guy's act of bashing in a car with a fire extinguisher excused any possible act of violence against any arbitrary protester, I said that the guy getting shot while protesting made sense in light of HIS actions.
By contrast, the Chinese government is guilty of acting immorally with respect to Tianenmen Square because their actions were not taken against specific violent individuals to stop their violence, but instead to stop the peaceful political expression of an entire class of people.
Please tell me that you are not so dense as to not understand the difference?
I am an ardent opponent of the death penalty. Nevertheless, I am capable of recognizing the difference between the execution of murderers (US) and the execution of political prisoners (China).
And do you believe the law will be really repealed?
With all my heart. In any country, bad laws can get passed. The DMCA is not the first nor will it be the last in the USA. But we have processes for getting rid of bad laws. Right now legislaters like Rep Boucher are working on laws to get rid of section 1201 and re-establish the importance of fair use.
Honestly, I would be surprised if the DMCA lasts in its current form beyond 2002.
The RIAA is the one paying big amounts of money to get the law passed, and *most* people among the voters don't know about the DMCA and it's implications, so they will keep voting the ones that passed the DMCA while getting their pockets full.
The problem with the DMCA is that it destroys freedoms that every day Americans take for granted. When people see their friends being arrested for no reason and their speech curtailed for fear of law suits, there will be an outroar. This one incident alone is really causing a stir.
The Chinese government does what is best for itself. To keep itself in power. In issues not related to retaining power, I am certain that they do try to do what is best for the Chinese people. BUT THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT IS NOT ELECTED. There is no check on whether they think what is best for the Chinese people is, in fact, what is best for the Chinese people.
How do you know what will give the best possible outcome for the chinese people?
No one person knows for sure what is best for an entire society. That's why democracy is so important. It holds those charged with "deciding what is best" for their people are held accountable for being wrong about what is best.
And allso. No one knows for shure if the american people elected the current president
That's a load of horse shit. The election was a statistical tie. Either person being president right now is a valid outcome.
What I saw on TV was a police car, not an armoured vehicle. Either way, HIS ACTIONS WERE VIOLENT ACTIONS, NOT PEACEFUL. If, in fact, no one's life was endangered by his act, then a bullet in the head is not a proportional use of force. As you say, there is a murder investigation. That's because Italy is a country of laws, unlike China.
In short, it does not matter what my understanding of the truth is or what your understanding of the truth is. In a country of laws like the USA and Italy, the truth will come out and the guilty will be punished.
None of that, however, can justify Giuliani's actions. He was nothing more than a violent hooligan. Death may or may not have been a harsh punishment for being a hooligan (depending on whether someone else's life was in danger or perceived to be in danger), but he was a hooligan.
Voted on by whom exactly? When? Do they get a chance to repeal bad laws? Do they get a chance to propose their own? Or are they instead offer a single slate of laws which they basically must vote for?
You do realise there's a fine line between peaceful and violent? If the protesters behave in a manner that's considered threatening to the authorities (flailing arms, legs, and such)..
There is no such fine line. Violence is the threat of or that act of doing harm to the person or property of another. Flailing arms, legs, and such are not violent under any conception of violent. The G8 protesters were quite violent.
Sorry, but you'll have to have actually lived there for some time (a year or so) before you can give accurate assessments. Being there for vacation don't count.
Sorry, it does count. Certainly you see more if you live there for a while, but a well-spent vacation does provide a very good picture of the area you are visiting. What I learned is this:
On Rupert Murdoch controlling all Western media. HE DOES NOT. While he controls a lot more than he should, he does not control anything near all Western media. There is no unifying control in any Western media.
Are you under the bizarre impression that all journalists from all Western countries go to the same school for indoctrination by the same people? And that these people all have an anti-China agenda?
Easy. China makes for an easy boogyman to keep western dissidents in check. 'Why are you complaining when this system is MUCH BETTER than China's?'
What Western dissidents? And I don't get the last question. First, what do you think I am complaining about? Second, if I were complaining, that would not imply that China's is better. Unless you have the perfect system--which no one does--then you always have something to complain about. The problem with China is that you don't have the right to complain.
Yes they do. It's called 'slave labor'.
Dude, the Western media is not dependent on cheap Chinese labor. Some Western manufacturing industries are, but manufacturing and entertainment are two vastly different industries. And, by the way, a media dependent on "slave labor" from China would be incented to create a POSTIVE image for China.
Damn, making one point you made yourself look the fool twice!
While Marx never saw Communism in the way it has been realized in the many "Communist" governments of the 20th century (in fact, he thought Russia was the last country on earth to be ready for Communism), the problem with Communism is that it assumes all humans place the same value on all things, from goods and services to love and happiness.
In fact, however, everyone places different values on things. Communism thus needs to leverage something in order to create a set of shared values for society. This is inevitably the political system and the result is inevitably totalitarianism.
He was in the act of smashing in a vehicle with a fire extinguisher. He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.
And the maximum jail term, I believe, is 5 years.
In China, unelected government officials arbitrarily determine that they do not want their citizens having access to the free Internet. They thus shutdown the means of getting free access. No one protests since they risk a death sentence for doing so.
Several key differences here:
While the US is way out of line on the Dmitry issue, there is absolutely no comparison between China and the USA.
Hey! Leave Australia out of this ;-)
Because American industry wants cheap slave labor.
Hmmn, You replied to yourself referreing to your parent self as an AC? :)
Jeremy
Do'h
;)
What is the point to a threaded discussion if no one uses the threaded part
Jeremy
Well, in all fairness, MacArthur would have started bloody WWIII. Remember that the USSR and China were still cozy, and those were RUSSIAN pilots in those MiGs over the Yalu. MacArthur wanted to lob a couple nukes at the Chinese, which surely would have started Armeggeddon. IMHO, Truman was right to fire him. He was violating the subordination of the military to the civil elected government, and was rightfully slapped down for it. Derek
"So why do many people think that China is the worst place on earth? "
Perhaps because they killed >1000 civilians for no reason, in front of the worlds media, and then denied it?
Of course, since they'll be cracking down on pro-democracy groups and the Falung Gong, they'll have plenty of prisoner's organs to harvest.
--
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Intelligence is definitely a recessive trait.
*cough* scientologists *cough*
Such a rich, vibrant history, and quite modern in some ways...but view the west as 'barbarians that will eventually be overrun' -- it really is their core belie -- that the west is temporary and they will eventually rule all the world.
Aparrently all prostitution is illegal, and strictly controlled by the military police.
Justice is swift and sure...a bullet to the back of the head is the standard punishment for many crimes. You kneel in a sandbox, are shot in the back of the head, and the bullet is retrieved and the family billed for the execution. I think they get the bullet, though.
Every aspect of your life is closely monitored. If a child, in a fit of anger, writes something anti-communist -- purely an unknowing impish prank -- or draws in crayon on the president's picture -- you must literally burn and destroy it. Tearing it up in small pieces and mixing it with the trash guarantees a visit from the military police, and a term in an 'adjustment facility' for a couple members of the family.
I still have great hopes for China. The rural people know little or nothing of the government, and are very innocent and sweet. Perhaps they will take up high posts in the government at some point and turn China towards more freedom of thought..
From a historical point of view, I hope they have something along the lines of a Rennaissance rather than the continued capitalism and industrialisation, but it appears that will not be.
The olympics will be very interesting.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
To tell you the truth I have never been there.
... who defaced an image of the chairman. Two relatives did 6 months in an 'adjustment facility' after a poor try at destrying the damaged picture -- they tore it in many pieces, and mixed it in the garbage. The mil police showed up 10 days later with the reconstructed photo.
My dad, however, was doing a lot of business with mainland china in the late eighties and early nineties, and two chinese women are relatives of mine. They have positive things to say about China.
Myself, I take a darker view, since appeasement of a potential adversary -- from a historical POV -- tends to be a poor strategy.
The prostitution comment is from a story my Dad told me when he was ushered out of a nightclub while the mil police collected their prostitution cut. The businessmen he was with explained what was happening. I think he was there doing legit business, and just observing the nightlife, but you never know with that old goat.
The story about the child regards a distant cousin of a chinese woman I am related to
The execution was for a drug 'mule' who was caught with heroin. The particular city my Dad was in was discussing his capture at the airport. It stuck in my Dad's mind because it was so swift -- the man was caought at the airport when my pop arrived, and was dead when my pop departed the next week.
I guess that makes me a 'naive troll'. There are many wonderful people in China, and a lot of good people in government, but the core belief of that government is that they will roll over the west and take over the world. It's actually stated policy.
If I'm an 'naive troll' for giving people a glimpse into what it's like in China, albeit second hand, then it's your choice to not listen and call me names.
The sories I mention are from people I trust implicitly, so I beieve the avents occurred as related.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
> My apology for calling you naive.
The truth is, I'm a dystopian. That means I see no indication, on any front, that any true respect will come to human beings any time soon.
In fact, if you have seen the movie 'Terminator', in particular the scene with massive robotic machines crunching their way over heaps of human remains, that is the only future I see for humanity.
I could well be wrong, I hope for the sake of children that I am wrong, and that you are right -- that the rapes in central park, the shootings in columbine, the bomb in oklahoma, sarin gas in japan, a lack of human rights in china...maybe they will become parts of history not to be repeated.
My gut feeling is the worst will happen. The holocaust in germany, the pogrommes in the USSR, the lynchings of god-knows-how-many-blacks in the USA.
Twisted minds love to control, to assert power, to kill. That is world into which we are thrust, I can only control the few feet around me, and only to a certain extent. So be it.
Thanks,
S.D.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
China, without a doubt, needs to work on being a less reprssive place, but when beanerspace states:
"Still, for those who thought human rights weren't an olympic issue, just think of how much fun it's not going to be to go the Olympics and attempt to transmit stories and images of the results from behind the Great Firewall. So much for thinking that bringing commerce and communications would have the same effect as the barbarians did to Rome."
It reminded me of most of the other recent Olympics, with the Olympic committee itself preventing the transmission of stories and images from observers or participants in the games. I found the Olympics committees actions just as objectionable and anti-liberty. One takes liberty for power and control, the other takes liberty for all the money it can get. A sad state of affairs....
Look, people, how is this even news anymore? It should by now be startlingly obvious that China a) is an agressivly oppressive government (as opposed to the US and Russia, who quietly remove their dissidents) and b) is run by sociopaths. Therefore I propose (and no one will adopt) that there be less of a proliferation of stories concerning both Chinese Oppression and Human Rights Violations. We know it's happening. Tell us how you're stopping it.
Geek Culture killed my dog/
and I don't think it's fair...
io hymen hymnaee io
io hymen hymnaee
Right, but my point is: what good is it telling us about their violations (other than to illustrate their creative ways of doing them) without telling us how they're being dealt with by either internal or external forces. I don't want to hear about censorship so much as I want to hear about the various attempts of the People at getting around the censorship.
Geek Culture killed my dog/
and I don't think it's fair...
io hymen hymnaee io
io hymen hymnaee
The likelyhood of a democratic china in 2008 is slim. Governments do not change that quick, even when they appear to (since I'm sure you'll jump to the "But-Russia" defence). What will be seen at the olympics, and indeed all around the world for the next ten years, will be a shiny, happy "It's-a-small-world-after-all" China, full of people who /love/ working for The Party. Executions and purges will be quieted up even more. Faulon Gong will "mysterously fall out of favour with the People." Uniforms will shift to pink pastels in the spring.
It's still the same old China, though. Only thing'll change that is time or, if you're in a hurry, nukes.
Geek Culture killed my dog/
and I don't think it's fair...
io hymen hymnaee io
io hymen hymnaee
I agree with the general idea of your post, there is indeed a policy to repress religion in China and none in the US. However, be wary of referring to "dangerous fringe religions" lest someone in power decide that your religion (or lack thereof) is dangerous, and on the fringe.
And btw, your sig still doesnt make sense to me.
Just for the sake of accuracy - "Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty" does broadcasts still, covering some Eastern Europeans countries. a http://www.rferl.org
, 00 .html
In the Ukraine (where the geographic center of the Europe is located) this radio is becoming more and more popular and increasingly vital as the situation with human rights and free speech deteriorates.
Local reincarnation of KGB (named SBU) tried to claim control over dot.ua
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,44012
And more recently the head of SBU shocked the journalists by sharing these plans:
"SBU wants to register all Internet users", quotes him Interfax-Ukraine (http://www.interfax.kiev.ua/eng/) news agency. Gen. Radchenko elaborated "this registration is analogous to existing phone book that lists all numbers of owners and users of the phones". He claimed that it is needed to "avoid anonymous sites and pirated traffic". "We need a registry. Internet should be regarded as yet another type of communications". "The appropriate decision has been already made", added the General. (source: http://www.korrespondent.net/main/23804/ in Russian only, sorry)
The NSA currently employs only about 18,000 people...
The number is classified, but it is thought to be more like 70,000. Whatever it is, it's a LOT more than 18k.
For more info on the NSA, I suggest you read the very well-researched book The Puzzle Palace.
L5R had to change their card backs because of USOC bullying. The original logo was 5 rings in a, well, ring, and looked nothing like the Olympic symbol. But in such matters the Olympic thugs have total authority, granted by Congress.
It is a country that does not subscribe to any of the west's positive ideals. (Tolerance of difference, dissent, freedom of thought, religion, expression). In fact it appears that China has shrugged off communism merely to embrace the west's worst ideal. Materialism.
It's been said before, but we should keep saying it until something changes: Why does China have "most favoured nation" trading status with the United States? The west (ie. the US) should give that status only to its friends, and it should only make friends with countries that believe in and implement democratic and tolerant ideals. It should remain cordial with countries that don't, but it shouldn't climb into bed with them.
. --- If you're looking for free e-mail you won't find it here! http://www.noemailhere.com
I would have thought it was obvious though, considering that most if not all of the complaints about China that I have read on /. apply to the government of China. But perhaps explicit is the name of the game here.
As for communism being THE NUMBER ONE materialistic ideology, I suppose you could make a case for that, but here's a counterpoint. Communism, (at least in principle) is linked with socialism and socialism is primarily concerned with helping all members of society. Not with simply getting ahead yourself. (Remember, the USSR was the way ahead of Europe and NA in giving women the vote). Capitalism is concerned only with the personal aquisition of capital. Other people are irrelevant.
But regardless, my point was not to defend communism. My major point is that the west should not be complicit in the reprehensible actions of the Chinese government, by trading with them as though nothing was wrong. This won't destabalize China, but at least we won't be helping a murderous regime.
I mean, just because you can't stop someone from beating people up doesn't mean you should sell him a baseball bat.
. --- If you're looking for free e-mail you won't find it here! http://www.noemailhere.com
now, some of the actions, many even, taken by the government were wrong. but "mistakes were made" because our government agencies are staffed by humans who were fallible. there is no government policy to persecute followers of particular religions. after Waco, there were hearings and an investigation in an attempt to get at the truth. did we get at the truth? did the right people get punished? probably not.
Why? there's no magic: we have not repealed human nature. there are mistakes and there is corruption everywhere there are humans. But there is less corruption here than in china, and there is no government policy to persecute religious people of any faith.
In China, there is, and not just armed dangerous fringe religions, but pacifist movements with enormous followings.
----
So, basically, they want a magnet which only has a North pole.
Great, the Chinese will have the communications so locked down by the time the Olympics roll around that we won't know the results until the athletes are 'allowed' to return home. After the celebratory interregations, of course. Do you think they'll impose summary executions for those caught using performance enhancing drugs?
I can just see the tanks now, rolling through the Olympic village, squishing the athletes as they run for their lives because the Chinese mistook morning calisthenics for Falun Gong meditation. IBM's usual Olympic webcasts will instead be broken into hourly by government sponsored Chinese hackers so that websurfers world wide are treated to that spectacular shot of the goatse.cx guy. In a masterful display of revisionism, Olympic commentary will refer to all events as Chinese wins and victories over US hegemony, no matter what the real outcome was; anyone who does not tow that state line comes home broken with a broken spirit and mind courtesy of the PLA. Lastly, a plane load full of athletes is shot down over Japan as the Chinese complain that because they once had soldiers standing on those shores at some point in history that the plane had invaded their airspace.
What is it they say about tigers and their stripes? 2008 will be very interesting. Personally, I expect the Chinese to do something really dumb between now and then to cause boycotts of the games.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
People might not know about it if they don't hear it over and over. Consider that each time someone hears it, they may become more and more against that sort of thing and move towards becoming that internal or external force. It's a process and does not happen overnight just because you and I saw it was something that should be dealt with. It takes longer for the word to spread so that everyone is as disgusted with the situation as we are. I guarantee you it will take a few years more before anything much more is done.
On the positive side, maybe a democratic China will be hosting the Olympics in 2008.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
Cellphones and internet cafes have become rampant in China. The chineese government already admits that they cannot control the cellphone boom, and SMS messaging. The internet cafes provide an easy way for any chineese citizen to get online, and there are many ways around the state filter boxes, so many in fact that it is practically impossible to stop people from finding and using proxy-servers available all over the country.
Cripes! That's it! Better than Radio Liberty! We compile a list of pagers and SMS capable devices in use in China and begin sending messages into the email addresses corresponding to them on a frequent basis. It can be a great way of spreading information freely! That or their government will move in and kill all the pager and cellphone users in one fell swoop.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
The good part of China having cyber cafes was that the people could get information out to the rest of the world quickly. Now that they are closed down, it is one less channel for people to report to the world about what atrocities are happening. In that sense it is important because those people have lost a voice, not as though they legally (according to their country) had that voice to begin with.
We'll have to rely on people escaping across the Himalayas or being lucky enough to leave that nation to learn about those sort of things from now on if they all go away.
"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
Yeah, like they are stupid enough to allow any Tibetan disidents access to any place where there are news cameras. I bet you the PLA is already working on "containment" plans.
"Consistency is contrary to nature, contrary to life. The only completely consistent people are the dead." A. Huxley
My best guess would be that they were closed for "failure to grease the right hand."
"Consistency is contrary to nature, contrary to life. The only completely consistent people are the dead." A. Huxley
Try browsing a little lower.
Jaysyn
There is a war going on for your mind.
I don't disagree with your overthrow point. However, with thousands of busniess people, government officials and others streaming in for several weeks, and with the profilic use of the Internet that many of these peole have come to accept, won't they be screaming about how much it sucks not to have access (other than to the diving scores via a Internet kiosk)?
The more people that visit China for the olympics and come back with a bad taste in their mouths, the more the Chinese government will have to work against the bad PR they *might* get as a result.
Things as trivial as preventing (or restricted) I'Net access for 3 friggin' weeks for the world's largest sporting events for hundreds of thousands of people could have a negative impact on their country's visitor's during that time.
Again, all I'm saying is that it should be interesting to see how they plan to handle this issue (hopefully providing free access to tourists) while continuing to repress their own citizens.
This should be interesting to watch in the next few years.
Just looking at the posts for this story, it doesn't appear that many people in china have unfettered access /. That alone says alot about what kind of freedom you can expect there.
-"The early bird catches the worm, but the late bird sleeps the most"
> Many Marxist and totalitarian communist regimes are desperately trying to come to terms with the most effective tool for democratic change yet devised.
Having finally got to reading the communist manifesto and related material, I must insert a note here. In communism, by definition, there is no such thing as a ruling class. The USSR practically had such, and so does the China. Indeed, the countries that have been called communisms have been more like _totalitarian state capitalisms_.
Infact, one could interpret that true communism would be a truely free society:
"In place of the old bourgeois society, with its classes and class antagonisms, we shall have an
association in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all."
What ever happened to the idea that the Olympics would open up the country. Would someone please remind me why they got the Olympics again? I thought it was a stupid decision in the first place ... things like this just help to prove it (to me).
Help Brendan pay off his student loans
China's laws broadly ban "socially destabilizing content," breaches of public security, "divulging state secrets", Internet pornography, and "trafficking in products designed to circumvent copyright protection measures".
According to China's new Attorney General, John Ashcroft, "there are many people of poor and evil motivations who are seeking to disrupt business and government and exploit any vulnerabilities in the digital universe."
"There is perhaps nothing quite as distressing as the unintended consequences of well-intentioned government," Ashcroft added.
The consensus reaction on Slashdot was "Gee, those Chinese ppl are mean. China sux. Good thing we live in the U.S. of A."
Ashcroft's former employer, George W. Bush, had no official comment but was heard to mutter under his breath "there ought to be limits to freedom."
One Bourbon
One Scotch
and One Beer
Question is: would the moderators see that, too?
What you have to remember is that the International Olympic Committee is amazingly corrupt.
It also worths to note that US voted China this time. People said that, besides other political issues, US did this to buy China's favor in 2012's voting.
Can we say it's kind of....corruption we talk about? I don't know...
Good arguement; thought I'd give you some numbers to back it up. According to the BBC, China has reported over 1,700 executions in the last three months. Unreported executions could double or triple that number.
Is it surprising that this government indulges in large scale censorship as well?
(While we're at it) Free Tibet.
This kind of thing remembers me too much of things like "Security Thorugh Obscurity". It's simply insane. People will have ideas. Thats a point. Of corse, if I have contact with inteligent people, I would have more ideas. But they simply cannot ban everything, so it's a worthless effort.
There is no use to pretend something one doesn't like simply does not exist. It will continue existing, no matter if one acknoledges it or not.
Anyway, China is not what it used to be anymore. It's useless to close the bay after the horse has escaped.
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morcego
Come on people, China, Afghanistan, North Korea, etc..., they all have dictators ruling there. Probably (and sadly) closing cybercafes is not the worst thing that can happen there (massive executions in China anyone?, hunger in north Korea?). I know that this is Internet related news, but knowing whats happening in that countries, where some people doesn't have enough even to eat, seems a bit frivolous to me
Make It Secret . Free JavaScript implementation of AES for your browser
Obviously the internet cafes MUST be controlled so people don't anonymously let out state secrets. For instance, that the elementary school kids were being put to work making fireworks before the school exploded...
China was never truly communist. Nor was any other nation -- "from each according to his ability, to each according to need" works within a family, and can be made to work for a while in small groups of unrelated people, but is so unstable when more than a few hundred people are involved as to mutate to something else before implementation has more than begun. China and Soviet Russia were really fascist states using Marxist ideology as a cover story.
Depends. One man pounding on an armored car is little danger (except possibly to the re-painting budget). One hundred are a danger. I didn't get a good view of the vehicle, but police riot vehicles are generally not tanks, they are just trucks with extra heavy sheet metal and window glass. Let enough people pound the windows for long enough, and they will break. Beyond that, there are ways one man on foot can immobilize or destroy the heaviest army tank if he is allowed to get up close with a crowbar, gasoline, or many other common items.
I doubt that the Italian police mistook that fire extinguisher for a molotov cocktail, and chances are they weren't in that much danger from the whole crowd. So shooting probably was an overreaction. But even so,
1. It's an isolated incident. (At least I assume the Italian police don't gun down protestors more often than other western countries, which is to say hardly ever.)
2. They shot one man, where the Chinese police/military in similar (or probably less physically threatening) situations have used machine guns on the crowd.
3. Most of all, people are free to talk about it, post the pictures, and campaign to remove the politicians ultimately responsible for this from office. You won't see the Chinese authorities allowing anything like that sort of free and open discussion in their country -- even if they have to shut down internet cafes and censor servers.
Afghanistan also bans flying kites... the government describes kite-flying as "useless."
You forgot to mention kite-flying. Afghanistan is not very Poppins-friendly.
and here is my experience from the net cafes in various cities 1.chengdu- cool city, anyway i was at sichuan university for a bit doing music sutff and i went to the net area on campus....they used a free net service on some ancient computer and it was too slow to even do anything so i went off campus, so after walking past a bunch of poultry getting slaughtered i waled up a pink staircase to a net cafe, this one was using an adsl line and was 2 yuan(cheap) an hour, people there icq like mad and do a lot of chatting, people wre always there and i couldnt access certain sites, but it was no biggie, then i went to some ore net cafes aroudn the university, very nice cafes, people always there and bunch of cool people xian-slow as hell not even goin to describe guillin- i was at the normal university and they net cafe near it laughed at me, i got a bit upset, they were assholes, so i went next door, the connection was pretty fast, and again, icq all over the place and some wierd games goin on bejing-expensive thats all i have to say if any1 goes to china in the future, i suggest u stay in chengdu, its one nice place, sichuan is great , nice people, not as dirty as bejing, and cheap taxi
Or more correctly "He who lives by the fire extinguisher dies by the 9mm Beretta"...
While no one likes the idea of restricting speech, at least they are not outright banning it like in Afghanistan (hope I didn't screw up the spelling on that too much). Give the Chinese some credit...
What the U.S. is engaging in is no better than what M$ is doing to Linux: FUD. Why is this so?
China is the only country left standing that's just as big, if not bigger, than the U.S.A. Therefore the U.S. government is afraid of competition and rivalry. Remember yesteryear when Russia was the big bad wolf? Where was China on the radar back then? Didn't exist did it?
Well now that USSR has been disolved, the only target left is China. To make our people be on the side of the government, they have engaged in a barrage of media scare tactics, namely in the form of FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt). All this is done to brainwash our citizens so nobody is in disagreement with our lovely government.
Remember the Vietnam war? Wasn't it president Johnson who engaged in some fake boat sinking incident to kick-start it? (forgot the exact details) Why did we lose the war against the North, who were so little in numbers compared to that of ours? Because the American people OPPOSED it that's why. So to prevent such a thing from happening again Uncle Sam has decided that it's in our best interest to brainwash the average Joe Blow to hate China as much as possible.
Another way to get a better understanding of this FUD against China is through the movies. In movies you see the good guys being very very good, and the bad guys very very bad. Why is this? It's so the audience can like the good guys to the max and hate the bad guys to the max. So when the ending comes the audience is totally on the good guy's side and clap when the bad guy is terminated.
But in real life there is no true "good guy" or "bad guy". Everybody looks out for their own interests and think they are doing the right thing. We all have our points of view. What you see from your backyard is not the same as what I see in my own backyard.
Good case in point: the U.S. spyplane crash in China. Suppose it had been a Chinese spyplane flying over the coast of California. Suppose they had landed at LAX without getting permission from us. How do you think Mr. Bush would have reacted?
So what does the U.S. really want out of China? I'll tell you. Our government would love it if China suffers the same fate of USSR: break up into many tiny pieces. When that happens the goold ol' US of A will have become the only standing world super-power. We'd have majority voting power in Nato, and thus we will have controlled basically the entire planet. We will have elevated from "Big Brother" to "Pimp Daddy" with nobody to challenge us. Absolute Power my friends is what the U.S. is after.
Just don't forget the quote "absolute power corrupts absolutely".
/. users are good at questioning authority and the status quo. Think about what I've said the next time ABC news brings up another China incident and ask yourself, "Do American people really give a shit about the lack of freedom of speech in China? Do we really?"
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Did you just fart? Or do you always smell like that?
eTrade SUCKS
One big problem for most people evaluating the situation in China from outside is that it is difficult to recognize the vast range social parameters can take. Even in the US, some laws are so good that people constantly sing its praise (think First Amendment) while some are so bad that they are considered national shame by many (think DMCA). Now take that distance as unit. Starting at First Amendment, going in the direction of DMCA for, say, between 0.5 and 5 units, you will cover perhaps most of Chinese laws in terms of restriction of freedom. If you go still several times further, you'll reach the range of some more terrible states existing today, or the state of China when Nixon visited it. That state was not even defined by the laws of that time, as there were essentially none.
So depending on what your reference point is, you could say that China has made tremendous progress while at the same time it has a long way to go. If you think these two are contradictory, you will have a long time to argue which is right.
But there is a lesson to be learned. In the past century, apart from one exception (South Africa), the best support for authoritarian regimes has been the sanctions and blockades from democratic countries, and the biggest initiator of reform comes from open exchange with democratic countries. It was lucky for Chinese people that Nixon had the guts to visit it when it was in such a miserable state (even though his motivation was largely to forge an anti-Soviet alliance). Other nations still under sanctions now unfortunately have to endure many more years of dictatorship.
What about the human rights situation in China now? Based on the media report here, I would say it is so much better than it used to be. Those who consider this as the worst situation that could be simply knows too little about history, especially the darker side of history.
So is Olympics good for China? Of course it is. It is good for the Chinese people. It might also be good for the Communist government, but I don't care. I consider the Chinese people much more important than the Chinese government.
When I left China, it was hard to imagine owning a telephone unless you are an official, in that case you get it for free. It is now difficult for me to contemplate the number of cell phones in Chinese cities, and it is an eye-opener to see the prevalence of Internet cafes. We hated Bush Sr. then when he sent envoys to China so soon after Tiananmen. But in retrospect that might have done more to improve the lives of Chinese people than his son is ever capable of.
Western countries like to use carrot and stick to induce democracy in other countries. The problem is that the distance between carrot and stick is so limited it does not cover even a tiny fraction of the possible range. Static policies based on stereotype do not work. What will work is a dynamic policy that actually reward changes in the positive direction.
C'mon this is more than 6 years from now... Surely by that time the internet will have become a far more safer and saner environment by then and there will be plenty legislation and international cooperation to keep it that way. If anybody thinks they can abuse the chinese internet to access or spread unamerican propaganda... ...
Touche !
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
Can you say Persecution ?!
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
Or perhaps I'll go back to Hong Kong on business, and talk to some individuals who smuggle Bibles into China. Well, those who haven't been tortured or killed when caught. I mean, whether you think their faith is wack or not, what type of government has to be afraid of a 2000 year old book ?
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
And what, being a war casualty makes it okay ?
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
Books don't cause revolutions ... people do.
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
Yeah, I'll probably loose karma for quoting Ecclesiastes 1:9, but it is Sunday, and we are talking about China ... and it's no like
we haven't talked about this subject before, even on our beloved /.
Still, for those who thought human rights weren't an olympic issue, just think of how much fun it's not going to be to go the Olympics and attempt to transmit stories and images of the results from behind the Great Firewall. So much for thinking that bringing commerce and communications would have the same effect as the barbarians did to Rome.
Hopefully, some clever hacks out there will figure ways of circumventing, if the price isn't too high. Sometimes I just wonder if we just shouldn't have listened to Patton and MacArthur and been done with the problem 50 years ago ?!
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
I have to tell you all that you do not understand the situation here in China. Do not say that I am not a free person here.
China is a nation of one billion people. We are as free as you or me. Would I write that which I cannot condone? Would the person who pays me one million dollars ever disagree with such a thing? Of course not.
We should not discuss this matter. I must leave now.
Internet censorship, while it is of course a bad thing, is of minor magnitude in comparison to slave labor, one party-state rule, nationalized private property, and summary executions. This criminal government restricts expression of ideas in any other form, so why is this shocking, surprising, or anything other than par for the course?
China's been cracking down on peaceful, free communication for so long, it would be damn strange if they didn't crack down on Internet Cafes. We all remember Tianamen Square - how much more plainly does China have to state that they consider free communication a mere criminal offense at best, and a capital crime at worst?
I'm the stranger...posting to
My guess would be that people will only be allowed to send pre-written "e-postcards" to friends a family, with government approved "having a great time, wish you were here" messages and a picture or two. Browsing will probably be limited to approved sites only.
I'm the stranger...posting to
Remember, if people don't make a lot of noise over every human rights violation, the world at large might not become aware of them. It's repetitive, sure, but it's also essential to the fight for human rights. We cannot fight what we cannot see.
I'm the stranger...posting to
"Like any freedom, once given it is VERY hard to take the taste and feel away from people once it has been felt."
You're assuming the Chinese government is unwilling to kill its citizens to take away their freedoms. As we learned in Tianament Square (yes, I know I keep harping on it, and I will keep doing so), they are quite willing to kill to prevent free speech. I like the taste of free Internet communication, but the taste of air is so much sweeter. To continue enjoying the latter, I would certainly give up the former. And that is how China can take away any freedom it wants: by not being constrained by morality.
To put it very simply: If the Chinese government shoots only one out of 100 unauthorized internet users or any sort, very few people will choose to be unauthorized users.
I'm the stranger...posting to
This is an internet news site. Read the top of the page: "News for Nerds". I don't think anyone here claims closing internet cafes is as important as mass executions, but this particular site's theme makes it more appropriate to debate the cafes than the executions. That said, I do agree that worrying so much about free internet use when there are so many other human rights issues in these countries does seem a little odd.
I'm the stranger...posting to
I see your point. Problem is, it's sometimes rather hard to get that information, as well as occasionally dangerous for the people getting around the censorship, I should imagine.
I'm the stranger...posting to
It's much more likely that we'll have commercially viable genetically engineered flying pigs by 2008. In fact, I'd say that the flying pigs would be essential for any effective democratic revolution in China. They could be shot down and eaten by anyone, providing food for the masses after the flying pigs are released in the wild. Since pigs are much smarter than any other flying animal, it is concievable they could be trained to carry written messages, or even be used as suicide bombers. Train a flying pig to crash into stuff, strap on some C-4, and let it fly. In essence, they could be self-manufactoring smart bombs.
I propose we begin development of flying pigs immediately if we want to see a free China by 2008.
I'm the stranger...posting to
What you have to remember is that the International Olympic Committee is amazingly corrupt. Really mind-bogglingly crooked. 60 Minutes did a special on this a while ago, as I recall. In addition, the IOC does not neccessarily support more deomcratic governments as a whole. Its president, after all, was a Spanish Fascist during the Spanish Civil War.
So, I doubt the IOC even seriously considered the human rights angle, but just made noises about human rights so watchdog groups would be happy. The real reason probably has more to do with gifts and cash changing hands, and perhaps a little bit with genuinely excellent athletic facilities.
I'm the stranger...posting to
Americans may not agree with this, but there are similar laws on the books in many Western countries. Let's try to avoid distorting the picture of what is actually going on in China.
Slashdot is accessible, plastic.com? never heard of it.
/. just isn't on their radar, or wild, wide-open discussion is not a big problem for them. Plastic.com, BTW, is a slashcode site, aimed more at politics and general discussion rather than geekdom topics. I don't go there much (and it is much less popular than /.) but I do know many who non-geeks who do.
Thanks, that is interesting to know. Either
The only athletic sport I ever mastered was backgammon - Douglas William Jerrold
Does anyone know if /. and the like (plastic.com, etc.) are filtered in China? Just wondering.
The only athletic sport I ever mastered was backgammon - Douglas William Jerrold
Hoi dimbo! Just think for a moment. Just because you think that God created Americans to be special doesn't make it so. Criminal jurisdictions must be respected - or wait until the Chinese start kidnapping your citizens so they can stand trial in their courts???? Maybe it will take that to make the USA realise that you are not the arbiters of everything - especially in the light of Kyoto and the Bioweapons treaty (yet another deal you have broken in the interests of shitting on everyone (except yourselves).
Pimping my Karma Whore since 1847.
They're communist - there is a difference...
Pimping my Karma Whore since 1847.
I am assuming they'll have totally free and open Internet Access with a slew of new cafes when the Olympics arrive? As well as many different religious shrines for foriengers to pray to while they're staying, and able to pass their teachings on to the Chinese? This is all part of hosting the olympics, did they forget to tell them they have to accomidate their hosts to the fullest when it arrives? This means they basically have to lock up their police for a few months and let people be free for a change. They're in for quite a shock!
> China can't even allow it's people to worship
? God, as even the CONCEPT of a being higher than
> the State threatens their power.
And on the other extreme we have Afghanistan,
where worshipping God is a government mandate,
and you can be put to death if you're atheist.
> This is a country with leadership so devoid of
> ANY morality that they ordered tanks to roll
> over 20,000 peaceful protesters in 1989.
I sure hope you're not implying Religion=Morality.
Ok i don't like China either but the situation in Afganhistan is worse. The Talibans have just banned: Internet, Ties, Card games, Music instruments, Floppy disks, Movies, Lipstick, Nail paint, Sattelite dishes and lots more. Why always report about china? Sure it's bigger and more powerful. But the Talibans are much more dangerous. That place is like a breeding ground for terrorists.
From the looks of the pictures it is Delte Force :)
Macpeep,
I have a response on a couple points you made. First, about the difference between monitoring of content in China and in the US. First, lets look at what Eschelon is. Eschelon is a signals intelligence gathering network built by and for the National Security Agency. It's primary purpose it to provide foriegn radio signals intelligence from a number of listening stations around the world.
It is not, however, a see-all know-all system for identifying and analyzing email, internet traffic, and telephone calls. The expense that would be incurred to even attempt such global analysis would require an agency much larger than the current NSA can provide. (The NSA currently employs only about 18,000 people, and obviously not all of them are dedicated to SIGINT - signals intelligence.)
The amount of personal someone has in the United States is absolutely unprecendented in the world. The consequences of having anti-state propaganda here are quite light, if at all. For example, I can organize and gather people for a non-violent protest of any subject I please. Should I decide that, for example, the laws concerning public nudity are unfair
As long as I don't -break- the law in the process. So gathering support from 200,000 people and marching into Sacramento is just fine as long as I have the appropriate permits in place to gather that many people. Even if the local government does not LIKE the idea, there are constitutional protections in place.
Compare this to China then
For example, simply being
See the difference? At least in the States, and many westernized nations
Now, as to the facts you were looking for :
The chineese government has closed down the cafe's because many of the cafe's users were circumventing the state recorders and filters. They were installing software (such as ICQ) on the machines, and using them as message-passing stations. And, most importantly, people were downloading and using encryption, which is strictly against the law in China.
So, the cafes internet access is being closed down while new software is installed, and new systems are being put into place, to further tighten and control the information that the citizens can access.
Many of the cafes will be brought back online. Those with owners that circumvented the data filters, will be dealt with harshly.
I have no doubt though, that even with the filters re-designed, and new systems put into place
What is the old maxim of the hacker? (not cracker...) "Information wants to be free."
"Don't worry about the problems you have in mathematics, I assure you mine are much greater." - Einstein c.1919
*LAUGH* Thank you, AC, whomever you were. Indeed, never underestimate what people want. Porn is definately something that people in China want.
.. and it said 'Let there be porn.' .. and there was p0rn in infinite variety.
.. and lo there was a war between the People and the Government.
And the internet spoke
And the State said 'Thou shalt not look at the p0rn, for it is dirty and has many naughty bits.'
And the people said 'Fuck thou state, for we like the naughty bits.'
And a new Government was born, and said 'Lo! We are different, and think you should enjoy the naughty bits. Go forth and look at p0rn, and pay us taxes.'
And the people looked at the p0rn, and paid the taxes, and all was good.
"Don't worry about the problems you have in mathematics, I assure you mine are much greater." - Einstein c.1919
It's interesting, and an old story that ricochets around the world. Many Marxist and totalitarian communist regimes are desperately trying to come to terms with the most effective tool for democratic change yet devised.
No, not the internet
Web servers, chat servers, bulletin boards, usenet, and a host of other applications send news, opinions, ideas around the world faster than any single government could hope to filter it.
In the past it has been typewriters, telephones, and the word processor (all of which you need a license to own in China) which could be reasonably controlled by the state.
Cellphones and internet cafes have become rampant in China. The chineese government already admits that they cannot control the cellphone boom, and SMS messaging. The internet cafes provide an easy way for any chineese citizen to get online, and there are many ways around the state filter boxes, so many in fact that it is practically impossible to stop people from finding and using proxy-servers available all over the country.
Perhaps the communist's rule will not fall due to revolution
I for one.. think that is a wonderful thing.
"Don't worry about the problems you have in mathematics, I assure you mine are much greater." - Einstein c.1919
check your speling
I'm quite amazed at the level of anti-china sentiment and the level of paranoia surrounding china and the chinese government. A lot of you seem to believe that the Chinese are somehow an expansionist race ready to take over the whole world. Let me assure you that this is not the case, on the contrary, the reason that China is so blatantly anti-American is because they fear America trying to take over China. Read your history books about China to see that throughout it's history China has continously being invaded so that this fear is really quite genetic. Also to those of you that have been in china and would like to think that you have a good understanding of what it is like to live in CHINA as a typical chinese person. Let me assure you that it is practically impossible for you to grasp ANYTHING about CHINA or CHINESE. This is not to belittle your intelligence or sensitivity. But if you don't look like CHINESE and speak with a FLAWLESS ACCENT, you will be treated like a foreigner which means that you will be pampered, people will talk to you differently, you have next to no chance of really understanding what it is to live like a CHINESE. Finally to those that repeatedly refer to TIANMEN SQUARE "MASSACRE", please watch a documentary called "The Gate of Heavenly Peace", it tells a different story than those traditionally told by western media.