Slashdot Mirror
EU Expands Microsoft Inquiry
Space cowboy writes "The European Commission is expanding its investigation into whether Microsoft has engaged in anti-competitive practices - now it's not just the browser bundling, but also bundling of audio-visual components (such as Windows Media Player). " There's also a Reuters report - what is worth noting, tho', is that the basis for this investigation is in the market for small servers - *not* the desktop market, from what I can see/read.
'
I've been running Windows XP for the last couple of weeks. It's amazingly fast and stable. The interface is clean and intuitive. Strange that such an innovative approach to creating a tightly integrated, non-patchwork computing environment should meet with such harsh recrimination. Truly an amazing Desktop OS, maybe the best yet.
So if Media Player isn't included what replaces it? It's all very well saying Microsoft shouldn't be allowed to place just their media products in the system but could the Commission *force* Microsoft to allow the bundling of other products by OEMs?
If I remember rightly, the last time this was tried with the browsers Microsoft said OEM's could either have MSN or MSN + others or nothing on the desktop. Or suffer the concequences. Can the Commission protect the OEM's from Microsoft?
The EU's focus on Microsoft's entry into the small server maket seems like it will have the effect of causing the case to recieve solid corporate support within Europe, sich that the EU will have to pursue the issue to fruition, rather than in the US where focus on the case focusing on the desktop market has recieved more fragmented consumer support. Let this be a lesson to the DOJ. When going after big companies, always identify the customer base most likely to support you in a unified way, and try the case with that focus. Granted this doesn't say much for the justice system, but that's how the world works... sadly...
--CTH
--Got Lists? | Top 95 Star Wars Line
I am no microsoft fan, but this is stupid. Microsoft isn't squeezing out competition by including the media player in its software. If anything it is just attempting to keep up the times with the MAC people. Yes, Mac sucks, but it is renouned for its a/v interface. Plus windows media player has been included in its distribution forever. Noone is keeping Real from developing better and better software, Windows isn't keeping Real off the desktop, Its all a bunch of crud.
Just think of how crappy all of our linux distro's would be without all the bundled goodies to go with it. Bundling software with an OS only makes sense. One of the main complaints that I always had with Windows was that it didn't come with compilers...... Imagine if they tried to bundle the compilers with their o.s. Horrors!
No way. Guano Linux will wipe its ass.
I've been running Windows XP for the last couple of weeks. It's amazingly fast and stable. The interface is clean and intuitive. Strange that such an innovative approach to creating a tightly integrated, non-patchwork computing environment should meet with such legal problems. Truly an amazing Desktop OS, maybe the best yet.
Why? Do they think that there is competetion in the desktops market?
If this Micro$oft bundling continues any further, we'll see Micro$oft selling whole houses/buildings bundled with the OS "to ensure maximum compatibility between the MicroSoft server and the surrounding environment.
Right...
Make even shorter URLs - 8LN.org
In the capitalist system that we live in companies like Microsoft have a lot of power and if say Bill Gates had bad intentions he could do a lot of damage. For example moving Microsoft head office to Toronto or even worse from the point of view of the USA, Havana. He has done nothing illigil, he has just become to powerful and subsequently must be cut down to size.
that's where they get the most money from! duh.
Surely the French, who hate American hegemony in entertainment (but weaken their case somewhat by idolizing Jerry Lewis and "Starsky & Hutch") will be agitating to look into the collusive practices of the MPAA & RIAA next. Won't they?
There are more realistic alternatives to M$ than to the big labels and studios.
InstaPundit! Ahead of the Curve Since 30 Minutes Ago
The BBC article has a link to the EU Competition Commission. Their August 30th MS press release is here (English version). The default version is HTML, and there is no MS "Smart Quotes" damage to it. An MS Word impaired version is available, for some reason.
The greatest government in the world - the US government - couldn't successfully prosecute Microsoft, so what makes anyone think that a bunch of Euro weenies will make the cut? Simply put, BillG and the Evil Empire have too many politicians in their pockets to make any investigation successful. If MS is going down, it's going to have to be on the front lines, a direct assault with technologies like Mono.
AJS
We too, at ScaredCity(?tm?) are conducting our own (privately FUnDead) investigation into the felonious behaviours of the KingDumb of fud. We know, you know, what's going on. you know who you are. have you seen these guise? if you do, you'll be one of the last to see how they look just before they get GNUked by us.
I personally cannot believe how Microsoft could do something like this! The bundling of audio-visual components?? An MP3 Player in an OS??? Would NEVER happen in Linux/Mac/BE/etc....
Oh wait... wouldn't that make it a de facto standard for an OS???
I'm wondering why we (the /. readers) are still caring about M$. Sure for some 95% of the world's user M$ might be important but for the enlightened 5% who use GNU/Linux or *BSD M$ doesn't offer any products and so M$ misses these 5% totally.
M$ is ignoring the most important 5% because I'm sure that we a will 95% of the system admins in a few years. We'll be those who decide which software to "buy" and install.
-- just a geek - trying to change the world
... ever tells me what features I must include or exclude from my product,
I WILL KICK HIS ARSE*.
* "Ass" to you Yanks.
Will we end up with four mini Microsofts ?
Might have implications for Samba, especially the authentication twist using unused fields they stuck in (was it Win2000?).
.net in it's tracks - .net must be seen as monopoly if you can only use Microsoft's servers and clients.....
This sort of EU stuff might also stop
When I were your age, all round here were fields...
If there's an alternative. Maybe I haven't looked hard enough, but windows mediaplayer seems to be the only way to view WMF's, etc.. And seems to be the best way to view avi's of all kinds. For me, media player is one of the very few reasons that I boot into windows. ergo, it's one of the few reasons that I bought windows in the first place.
Allan
your understanding that with the inclusion of media player windows are NOT keeping real player off the desk top i believe to be mistaken.
when corporates do roll outs of XP - do you think they are going to bother rolling out real as well? why should they?
when my mother buys her new machine and gets XP OEM, do you think she knows what real player is? of course not! she clicks on things to play movies and they work. (yes its a nice integrated approach as someone else pointed out and you have to congratulate microsoft for catering for my mother!)
anyway...
do you think real really cares about real player? how many people actually have the real player plus - the one you BUY? they only care about their SERVERS and SERVICES. the software that compresses the movies, the software that streams the casts.
now if i'm a web media streaming company and i have to decide to go MS or REAL - who do you think i'm going to go with? the server that has a player on just about EVERY desktop, or the server that my listeners have to download the player? that's not a difficult decision!
don't get to the bootloader aniti-competition issue?
Today is Aug 30.
Two months is Oct 30.
XP ships Oct 27.
Just a tad late to help any injunction case against the company.
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
That's funny. It keeps crashing on my machine all the time. It's practically unusable for me. Back to the old versions..
The french haven't been idolizing Jerry Lewis or Starsky and Hutch for a while you know, maybe you should go on a trip to France :o)
Let's see, here's the total of add-ons you get from Microsoft: 2 - IE and Media Player. Alright then, now lets look at a simple download of Netscape Communicator produced by AOL: The reason this download is somewhat big is because if you try to get it, you get not only Netscape, but WinAmp (another AOL product), RealPlayer, AOL Instant Messenger (what if I don't want to use AOL's shitty software?), and oh yeah, don't forget the AOL icons that go EVERYWHERE when you install any AOL product. Doesn't that piss anyone off in the least? I don't use Netscape at all as my browser because I think it sucks, and especially since AOL bought it out. I have to use Netscape calendar for work, and when I downloaded the Communicator with Calendar, I was able to tell it not to install Communicator, Winamp, and RealPlayer, but there was no check box for AOL Instant Messenger (which I can't use at work), and all of a sudden, bam, there it is on my computer! That and a nice fat "Sign up for AOL Today!" icon on my desktop. Why would I sign up for a crappy service like that? AOL should be the ones getting looked at for anti-competative nature if your going after these things like Media Player from Microsoft...
You wasted packets to get this lousy sig.
Shut up you FUDster, how much did Redhat pay you to post that shit.
Well at least the German DOJ is currently looking into the copyprotection schemes since those prevent the consumer to make personal copies to which you have a right in Europe.
--Ulrich
On no accounts allow a Vogon to read poetry at you
Real Player fucking sucks ass. Fuck those fags, i hope M$ grinds them up and spits them out.
In short, Microsoft doesn't NEED to give a damn about the verdict. 10% of what they earn in Europe is probably less than the day-to-day changes in their share price value.
All in all, this is a show-trial (the EU wants to go "free/open" and this is a great excuse for a public flogging to justify it), but where Microsoft is probably more than happy to provide the show.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Europe sucks anyways. Europeans are all wierd and shit.
I wish Microsoft well, they have to overcome the computer illerate governments and teach them that computers are a tool, and they are not stopping anyone from competing with them, they simply do a good job making software. This is simple capitalism at play here.
Maybe if Real Player wasn't an obtrusive, annoying piece of Spyware, it would be installed on more desktops.
I refuse to install it, for several reasons.
1. It's intrusive - you have to enter your email address, postal code, etc.
2. It slows your system down with all the crap it loads (ie StartCenter)
3. It crashes constantly. And when StartCenter is enabled, it causes the system to crash constantly. I don't know how many times I've had people in the office complain about their computers crashing all the time, which I remedied by removing StartCenter.
Instead of whining about MS' bundling practices, perhaps Real should work on improving their product, and removing some of the Spyware components from it.
After all, I don't use Windows Media Player for MP3s. Winamp does that quite nicely.
The elitist Open Source guy strikes again!
Under the guise of an anonymous coward, no less.
And still the XP keeps crashing...
Exactly.
Well RedHat crashes all the time for me. In fact it's down more than it's up.
So George W. Bush is the greatest president in the world?
Not quite sure where you got that one. Yeah, he happens to be the President of the greatest government in the world, but I would never - never - peg him as the greatest President in the world. He didn't even fairly win the office, and he's done shit with it. $600 tax cut for everybody? Big Fucking Deal: please pay down the debt!
So no, Bush is not the greatest President in the world.
AJS
Has anyone put the bootloader situation forward as an example of Microsoft abusing its monopoly situation? This is the situation where Microsoft can DEMAND that OEM's put Windows and only Windows on PC's. Microsoft explicitly forbids them from dual-booting... allegedly. This point has been raised recently with regards to the BeOS case. The problem is that there is little evidence because the licenses between Microsoft and the OEM's are secret. This is the real scandal, not the browser, media player issue.
return 0; }
NO government is great. PERIOD. For you to say that the us government is the "greatest" in the world is hatred towards Christ. Wake up.
Why don'you take a clue from ESR, only lie when you're getting paid moron. Are you hopeing some one will mod you up a +3 MS Bash?
From the same article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/business/newsid_ 1516000/1516753.stm)
In a statement, the European Commission said its latest investigation "adds a new dimension to the Commission's concerns that Microsoft's actions may harm innovation and restrict choice for consumers".
This means that the Commission is not only investigating Media Player bundling, but that this element is part of a larger investigation, something there's frequently talk of.
"Those innocent fun games of the hallucination generation"
It's not difficult to make a good OS when you have tons of cash. Think about this: .8% of his personal fortune. He just could do it you know ?
Bill Gates out of his private fortune could hire a team of 100 the best of the best programmers for say something like 5 years, pay them $1 million a year each. they could start an OS from scratch and build the best OS ever. It would only cost Bill Gates $500 million which is about
What is bad about MS is not always (though often) their technology but their aims. For them it's all about making as much cash as they can and making a decent OS is second to that motive. Consumers are getting sick of having to pay tons of cash for each version/updgrade/patch whatever. When you're a business what you want out of software is workability and not to pay MS for each upgrade that you will hope that will finally solve your network problems.
This is why at my company we're moving to Linux; we think it's a bad tradeoff that MS is offering and Linux coincides with our needs better.
I live in New Jersey and if I do not mow my lawn every 2 weeks I get a summons for my lawn being too tall. Yes there is such a law where I live. I guess they think it will lower the property value of the neighborhood if we do not mow the lawn constantly. I also got a ticket for blocking someones driveway once and it was my own driveway but they still gave me a ticket because they need the extra revenue to pay for our oversized government. The United States sucks too many laws and uptight people who want to even more laws to disallow people from doing with whatever it happens to be they disagree with.
If you just boot it up, run the demos, and close it down, it will be fine. Try doing some work on it. I, personally, hate the Fisher-Price UI and as a developer, it doesn't give me anything that's not in Win2K. Media player? Fuck off. Most of these things are bought for business machines and as such XP gives no advantage over 2K at all - unless you're a RAM vendor.
PS: Rules for using MS OS's -
- The original release doesn't work
- Never use an even-numbered service pack (NT4 SPs 2,4 and 6 all trashed things in their own way)
- SP3 generally brings it up to the advertised level of functionality (might work as desktop)
- SP5 is normally the one that works (might work as server)
- Web server? Don't even think about it
This sig made only from recycled ASCII
Further, the greatest fine they can impose is 10% of the revenue from Europe.
Actually, I think they can potentially impose a fine of 10% of global revenue, so it would be a really big deal for Microsoft. Not that it would ever happen.
Hmm.. lets see... 10% of revenue (not profit)
10% of say 5 billion dollars (figures from microsoft of 12 months up to June for EMEA region are 8 billion dollars I figure european union has just over half of that pie)
If we do the math.. thats 500 million dollars fine. which is kind of neat, cause the great thing is if they don't change it.. they can be fined again..
"I see. The fact that you...`can't explain'.. explains everything."
The EU can fine a company 10% of its GLOBAL income not only 10% of its EU income. On another point there are a lot of MS customers in the EU so 10% of the EU income would hurt anyway.
*Please* go after them for bundling IIS with Win NT/2k.
We are talking about a license where you pay nearly $1k USD more to purchase a license you can use someone else's Web Server with... which just so happens to make you pay for IIS at the same time.
Brian Macy
Remember Real had to fight to keep MS from crippling their software. Now Apple has had to do the same thing with QuickTime. Java is toast now.
The thing you are missing is, do you want just one company controlling the internet and the desktop? Once in total control, what would keep them from jacking up the price and restricting content to MS approved content? Remember MS is a very paranoid company and a company that is very much into control.
Tyranny by government is bad, so too is tyranny by corporate interests.
I have a friend who worked for a "non existent agency." He will not use MS now, and is urging his friends who own businesses to switch to other OS's for online communications. Buy a clue people, stop using MS for anything online. Industrial espionage is very widespread, and MS makes it very easy for you to be victimized. He can't go into detail, but when he warns us not to do something, we listen.
Be very wary of using MS for doing any business outside the US. Just don't do it.
Real Player shouldn't be probing your info, but they are not doing what MS is doing to you and the business community worldwide.
So they have the easily corrupted, money-whoring US politicians in their pockets..? How I'm not surprised, given your electorian system.But maybe (just maybe) our Euro weenies are not so easily bribed by an American company. Maybe the justice system over here has a bit more integrity. Maybe everything doesn't rally around big fat corporate money in the EU (atleast in the quantities it does in the US).
And yeah, maybe the cows have finally learned how to fly.
______________
OTTERS RULE.
I couldn't care less. I'm saying XP doesn't work for me. I don't have to lie about silly things like that. It simply won't work.
What exit?
But seriously, if you don't like it, do somehting about it! Those are local laws, so go to a town council meeting! Run for local office! Don't just whine to Slashdot; local government is one of the few places that a single person can actually make a difference in this country today. Get your ass out there and change something!
AJS
I wouldn't know. I don't run RedHat.
There are two main diffrences.
One - In the linux world you can opt-out and not install each component specifically. You don't see them merging it with the kernel. Damn, in Linux you're not even required to run a desktop.
Second - The "bundled" apps in linux distros are usually the best of their kind, and you usually have the choice between several options. You are not forced to use what the M$ wants you to use. You can select each component to your best liking.
Make even shorter URLs - 8LN.org
Wow if you can't get Windows to work you must be really really stupid. haha.
I think you'd have an argument if AOL were in the position that Microsoft is. That is to say, if AOL were a required part of practically every x86 PC sold in the world. As it is, however, you have to choose to download Netscape and AOL; they're not foisted upon you like IE and WMP and MSN Messenger will be in, for example, Windows XP.
Remember that the company that has the monopoly may be required to play by different rules than the companies against which they may compete. Since the US justice system has ruled that Microsoft is a monopoly and that they've engaged in monopoly maintenance, they may be required to act differently than AOL/TWC/Netscape or Sun or anyone else that challenges Microsoft.
Incidentally, I installed Netscape 6 on a Windows 2000 box and was able to uninstall (e.g.) Net2Phone, which is some piece of crap I don't need. I'm not sure whether I had the option to not install it in the first place (which, admittedly, would be bad) but I was able to uninstall it using the Add/Remove Programs control panel program. In Windows 9x, you don't have a choice about uninstalling IE at all. (Unless you use the non-Microsoft program Win98Lite or whatever it's called.)
Curmudgeon Gamer: Not happy
I don't either, I was just spreading FUD. Have a nice day!
I'm not Danish, rather Norwegian, but I have to agree with your assessment, even though you seemed to mean it as a joke ;-).
Nobody seems more relaxed and at ease than danish people, and the goverment seem to reflect that.
The South Park movie seems to capture the essence of what danish people are not.
Can your little brain comprehend that?
"Finally, because of the trial court judge's unusual and highly inflammatory comments to journalists and others during the latter portions of the trial, the appeals court has ordered the trial court judge removed from the case.
The trial judge had, among other things, stated the Microsoft founder Bill Gates' "testimony is inherently without credibility," and compared Microsoft executives with "drug traffickers.""**
** Perhaps our trial judge is a traditionalist techie with (pardon the pun) "roots" in Unix. Unless it's just general knowledge now to every Joe Schmoe that M$ is a "drag" after receiving all those page faults in the marketing dept. with their Excel spreadsheets.
Not to mention that Windows Media Server is free. My company ended up going with Windows Media over Real just because its cheap. You cant compeate
The fact remains. WinXP doesn't seem very stable.
There was a time when I would have agreed with you, but unfortunately I must respectfully disagree: The reason that most people have a problem with Microsoft bundling is that MS is using their monopoly in the desktop space to conquer every other niche of the software industry. Want to take over the home finance market? Spend billions developing a software product which you claim is "free" and then include it for "free" in the upgraded operating system which costs a $149 upgrade fee despite being only marginally different than the previous version (apart from the "free" home finance software). Now turn the screws by setting various completely unnecessary flags in distributed software to only work on said software (thereby FORCING your $149 "free" software on the market). Perhaps make some "Glindos XY Certified!" software monikers that all the hot software distributors want (slashing their own throats in the long run) that basically entails that their software checks if flag=Glindos XY and refuses to run otherwise.
That's the whole problem with all of the "free" software that MS is unleashing upon the world: Absolutely NONE of it is free (except for pirates), and this is proven out by the $10+ billion in profits MS is pulling in. The issue most people have is that MS is taking their position in the OS space and moving out to take over media, browsers, ISPs, etc.
Disclaimer : I am actually a Microsoft apologist. I have sent thousands of messages over the years claiming that Microsoft was being unfairly persecuted, and that it was in the consumers best interest, etc. Unfortunately that is no longer true. Billions of dollars were spent by consumers of the land on "Windows Me" which itself was truly a downgrade of Windows 98SE, so that Microsoft could recoup the cost of all of the "free" products that it has bequeathed upon the land.
It does to me. Well, I guess it's my word against yours then!
AOL is on every PC.
.. "just in case you need it".
You rent a movie from Blockbuster you get AOL CD's.
You goto the movies and you see AOL/TimeWarner and hear You got mail subliminal messages.
You turn on the nighly news and tons of AOL thrown at you.
I have yet to see MSNBC push MS that much, microsoft doesn't ruin the movies i rent with a bunch of adverts or anything.
Microsoft doesn't put crap in every magazine i read.
AOL by far causes me more HARM and the environment MORE HARM then 10,000 microsoft's put together.
And yes, you buy a PC from Dell, IBM or anyone for that matter and it COMES WITH AOL.. you like it or not. When you uninstall it as well it just removes the icons and leaves the programs
On the other hand YOU can make a choice and buy a PC with Linux on it now can't you? Microsoft doesn't stop that.. But people sue microsoft so they can bloat the OS with there crap.
what a world we live in!
X crashed and fucked up my pr0n download, damn knew i shoulda been using a stable system like Windows XP.
shut up shortarse.
It isn't hard to prove that MS leverages their proprietary knowledge of the OS to make special hooks for their applications and break others applications.
.NET, which again can be used to leverage their planned services into a monopoly. Those interfaces must also be externally emulatable.
The appelate court said that "MS's tying was inherant in their business practices, but not in their products" -- which is B.S.: their applications owe their monopoly to the ability to leverage their ubiquitous proprietary OS in their applications favor.
The solution is an Open Source standard API, like WINE, that can be used to deterministacally measure their applications compliance with their API.
Of course, WINE is just a start. All MS API's must be emulated, with MS's help in making the emulation correct. Furthermore, it must be extended to any place where MS has created a "platform" to leverage applications.
For example, they leveraged their OS to destroy browser competition and put IE on top. Now, IE is itself a platform for
When I die, please cast my ashes upon Bill Gates -- for once, make him clean up after me!
But I have no doubt these issues will be raised once the release is available to everyone. Then you cannot call everyone who complains a liar or a Fudster.
We shall see...
Ironic it is illegal for microsoft to give something away for free, but it is fundamental to linux's servival.
buahaha
Last time i asked Redhat about Real Audio they said they don't support proprietary software. (ie, they don't test there distro to see if non source based sofwtare works at all.. considered to be proprietary.. most amusing statement i've heard and the reason MANY companies won't use it)
So why is it wrong for microsoft to do the same? After all the windows media format is public knowledge with excellent SDK, server tools and media tools available.
Why do you need the player integrated into a server? That's just stupid. Forget about antitrust concerns.
This is such a lame copy of OS X, maybe you should wait until the full port of OS X is on intel.
- Kaos games and encryption systems developer
shut up nigger.
You make good points, and I agree with all of them.
Now how should this problem be addressed. The way people use computers has evolved to the point where a computer should come with a media player, and that media player should handle things like streaming audio and video. People buying a computer should be able to assume that that feature will be included, and people writing software and developing web based applications should be able to assume that user's computers will be able to perform those opperations. If would be nice if the industry could have standardized on one media format, but that didn't happen. For streaming video there are three that I can think of, Real, Quicktime, Windows.
Should Microsoft be forced to include other media players? If so, whose? Do they have to accept all of them, since any who are left out are at a distinct disadvantage? At what point do you end up with confusing clutter that does consumers more harm than good?
In my opinion Windows should ship with exactly one media player. Not zero, and not more than one. If you want to have a more competitive market, then make Microsoft use an open format for their media player. That way other companies can compete on playback features, but consumers are still guarenteed to have a tool to play the media content.
Yes, I realize that this leaves Real in a very bad spot. The playback of streaming media is an obvious need for modern computing. They have gone down the path of providing this through a propriatary format, which they aren't willing to license to other manufactures in a way that would make it an industry standard. They put themselves in the place they are in. The governments of this world shouldn't step in and protect their business model. If their business model can't adapt to the market, then they go out of business. This isn't Microsoft manipulating the market to destory Real. This is the market heading in a logical direction, and Real can't adjust to it because they put themselves in this spot. Good bye Real, you enabled us to watch video when that market was in it's infantcy, it's a shame you didn't come up with a sustainable businees model.
From your answer I take it you were unable to comprehend anything at all.
ever wondered what the A in AOL stands for?
iMovie is bundled with Macs, as well as iTunes.
They aren't really de facto standards, just convienent apps if you don't want to buy something.
- Kaos games and encryption systems developer
Guess it's time to take Apple down for making Quicktime their default media player too?
Bah.
My gripe is that you end up with a dozen or more "player" plugins, all required for different file formats provided by different servers on different sites. Ugh!
Your Servant, B. Baggins
AOL is hardly a player in the European ISP market, so why should the EU bother prosecuting them?
---
"The chances of a demonic possession spreading are remote -- relax."
Two comments:
1) iTunes is a completely different beast than Windows Media player. There is no proprietary iTunes format that Apple is trying to force everybody to use. Although iTunes comes with OS9/X you can remove it if you don't want to use it (I did). Try uninstalling Windows Media from XP and let me know how far you get.
2) The leveraging isn't in including the Media Player, it's in the fact that the media player is crippled to slant music fans towards using the (proprietary) Windows Media format instead of MP3s, and you couldn't uninstall Windows Media player on a bet in XP.
Probably, though, we should all discount your comments because your analysis of the Macintosh is "Mac sucks". I mean, I don't like Windows, but I have a better argument against it than "MS Blows"...
Who did what now?
Our website has a pretty comprehensive section on this whole issue including press releases on the EU action, the EU release, a FAQ on the statement of objextions, a timeline of proceedings, a summary/primer of EU antitrust enforcement, and other info. It is being updated through the day and will continually be updated as warrented. Check out the EU specific stuff here!
As I remember, Microsoft makes more turnover from Europe than the US anyway.
Europe is a HUGE market remember.
A big company like Microsoft floats on it's image with customers, and having a negative labels like 'anti-inovative' won't do them any good.
For comparison think of the Shell case with the sinking of the Brent Sparr oil rig, the consumer boycot cost them peanuts in a financial sense, but loads in a public image sense, and I sincerely believe it changed them for the better.
---
"The chances of a demonic possession spreading are remote -- relax."
> anyway...
> do you think real really cares about real player? how many
> people actually have the real player plus - the one you
> BUY? they only care about their SERVERS and SERVICES.
Real is well known for spyware practices.
If the MS move will kill them, I'll be among the ones that will
complain about MS dirty behaviour, and certainly not for
Real's death.
Said that, everybody is missing the point that the inclusion
of a media player is not the most Wrong Thing (tm).
Microsoft is forcing people to use and sell their products;
5 or 6 years ago I read on the net of a big PC vendor in
Germany that was threatened by MS not to sell OS/2
installed machines, and just days ago we read almost
the same thing about their threats against PC vendors
that sell PC with other operating systems loadable via
multiboot (sorry, lost the link).
I don't care at all about what software MS ship with
their crappy operating systems, I don't use them,
period. What I'm really concerned about is the way
they're limiting other companies businesses by acting
directly against them.
winamp may work for you but definitely not for me. I just installed Win2K pro, installed winamp and plugged in a audio CD boom the OS freezes. I tried this thrice and no better results. Finally caved in to the MS monopoly - installed Media player 7.1 and no more freezes. Pretty strange.
Apple has been shipping QuickTime with Mac OS for years now. Why is Microsoft not allowed to distribte its multimedia play-back software while Apple can? What about Windows MovieMaker versus iMovie, also included with MacOS? This train of thought makes no sense. I'm all for breaking up Microsoft, but we still have to be fair in these issues, even if Microsoft aren't playing that way. Why is this unfair?
The browser wars were another story. Browsers compete for compatability with one set of standards: those set forth by the W3C. One web, yet many clients trying to gain a one-up over the other. Integrating your browser product into your operating system dominates the userbase of that OS by eliminating their need to look into other browser software for the same purpose.
Now, let's look at the roles of Windows Media Player versus other media clients. WMP, Real*, and QuickTime each have their own formats with their own niches of acceptance. Some content distributers use ASX, others use Real's format, and still others use QuickTime. Chances are, if you want to see all that's out there (and you're a Windows users), you need to have all three of these clients. Therefore, competition is still open; the prize for dominating is still up for grabs. So what if Microsoft includes WMP with Windows. There's many content producers that swear by QuickTime (Lucas for example).
So my point after all that long-windedness is that MS should not be attacked in areas where they are really not doing anything wrong or particularly detrimental.
Why bother.
I agree in part with your statements. I also feel that they are targeting a insignifcant issue in respect to the media player.
Personally I feel that they should just force mircosoft to allow other companies to develope windows compatible operating systems this is really the only solution to the problem. If there are other companies offering compatible operating systems then microsoft can bundle what ever it wants with it's operating system just like linux does. Same goes with the competetion. But the lack of competetion in the actual operating system area is really the huge problem!
This is the real issue that needs to be dealt with
I hate all the needless anti-MS sentiment here. No, I don't like Microsoft. They are 'bad', but the reasons they are 'bad' are changing. WindowsXP, while big and bloated, has actually demonstrated decent performance on the machines I've seen it running on, and that's only RC1. It's no replacement for Linux, but it's not too shabby. Sorry to see you get flamed for expressing an accurate, but unpopular viewpoint.
Maybe when the world of Linux zealots realize that you can't douse Microsoft like they're just a lit match, they'll learn to work towards co-integration and more progressive advances into the Windows front. Telling Windows users how much they suck isn't going to get them to install Linux on their machines - it's only going to prove lack of tolerance on the part of Linux users/developers.
Why bother.
Good points... I digress. :)
Let me remind you that the EU Council of Ministers has recently approved a Copyright Directive that is at least as evil as the DMCA, and that it is very close to approving software patents.
On the other hand, it's true that the EU will be subsidizing free software projects. So I suppose there are contradictory signals. But certainly there hasn't been any high-level decision that Free Software is the way to go.
So essentially all they have to do is raise the prices of their products in europe by 10% and just treat it as an excise/business tax if they are hauled in court again in the future, and if not, as found profits, with a slogen, "it costs more because of your govt"? I could see this as backfiring on the EU in a big way...
AOL is on every PC.
.. "just in case you need it".
Not mine. Not on the PCs the company I worked for. Not on the several PCs I've bought recently. Later on you say you can buy a PC with Linux already installed. Did AOL recently come out with a Linux version?
You rent a movie from Blockbuster you get AOL CD's.
Just say no thanks. Don't take one. It's your choice. Blockbuster doesn't require you to purcahse/install AOL in order to watch your movie.
You goto the movies and you see AOL/TimeWarner and hear You got mail subliminal messages.
I must be watching the wrong movies. Aside from "You've got mail", what movies are you watching that has more then just a passing reference to YGM? Or are you talking about the advertisments in the begining. Pepsi does the same thing, but that's not a problem. Every studio advertises there upcoming movies, but that isn't a problem. Just when it is AOL is it a problem.
You turn on the nighly news and tons of AOL thrown at you.
Open a computer magazine and you'll have tons of IBM/Microsoft/(fill in company here) thrown in your lap. It is called advertising. Once again, they are not forcing you to purchase/install their product just to read your magazine.
I have yet to see MSNBC push MS that much, Microsoft doesn't ruin the movies i rent with a bunch of adverts or anything.
Maybe that is because MSNBC is a JOINT venture between the two companies, not completely owned my Microsoft. If Microsoft wanted to pay the bucks to advertise for every commercial on MSNBC, they probably could. AOL/TW pays for the movies to be produced. They can advertise their company if they want to.
Microsoft doesn't put crap in every magazine I read.
So throw the CDs away. Use them as coasters. Whatever. They didn't cost you anything. I hate those little subscription cards they put in my magazines, especially the ones I subscribe to already. I just ignore them and throw them away. Once again, the magazine requires the reader to do absolutely nothing with them in order to read it. Microsoft, on the other hand, requires you to install all this extra crap in addition to the OS.
AOL by far causes me more HARM and the environment MORE HARM then 10,000 Microsoft's put together.
Why? Because of the CDs? Please.
And yes, you buy a PC from Dell, IBM or anyone for that matter and it COMES WITH AOL.. you like it or not. When you uninstall it as well it just removes the icons and leaves the programs
First, it is not on every system you buy. Every time I go into Best Buy, I get asked whether I want to join MSN. Just say you don't want it. You have a choice. With Microsoft, you have no choice. To uninstall it permanently, go to C:\Program Files\, click on the AOL directory once, and press the delete key. Poof. Done.
On the other hand YOU can make a choice and buy a PC with Linux on it now can't you? Microsoft doesn't stop that.. But people sue Microsoft so they can bloat the OS with there crap.
No, people buy PCs with Linux on it because that is what they want. They are given a choice. People are suing Microsoft because Microsoft requires them (indirectly) to buy a copy of Windows even if they want Linux in some cases, or no operating system at all. This is the Microsoft Tax.
what a world we live in!
No, just your own little fictions world.
Bah. It's hardly public knowledge if the specs and/or encoding and decoding sources aren't available, and I'm pretty sure they aren't. SDK's, server tools et al aren't enough to make a format public knowledge. There's an SDK for Real Media, too, but the format is still proprietary, as is Windows Media.
now if i'm a web media streaming company and i have to decide to go MS or REAL - who do you think i'm going to go with? the server that has a player on just about EVERY desktop, or the server that my listeners have to download the player? that's not a difficult decision!
Well, actually you could get the open source Darwin Streaming Server in various flavors (OS X Server, FreeBSD, Red Hat, Solaris, NT / Win2000) at no cost. Source Code is available too.
So you could stream quicktime content, and quicktime isnt that bad (visually, compression-wise etc.).
(nt)
I have the same set-up and I don't have the problem. Something else is going on.
room101 -- how much can you stand before they break you?
(they always break you eventually)
What is bad about MS is not always (though often) their technology but their aims. For them it's all about making as much cash as they can and making a decent OS is second to that motive. Consumers are getting sick of having to pay tons of cash for each version/updgrade/patch whatever. When you're a business what you want out of software is workability and not to pay MS for each upgrade that you will hope that will finally solve your network problems.
Volkswagen discountinued their old model "Beatle" because the car was of exceptionally high quality. You buy Beatle and you don't need a new car for next 20 years. Volkswagen services were doing minimum work with Beatle, just usual maintainance stuff like testing, changing oil, breaks, bulbs etc. Today if you buy a new VW any model it will last 10 years, after that the car start "eating" money like mad. Think about it. Now, I may agree M$ is not playing fair by charging for patches for their own mistakes(?).
> Again, you don't have to buy a PC with windows on it, so how is microsoft any worse?
Dont you? Please name some manufacturers who will sell you a clean computer with no OS, and then tell me that they arent just pretending to do you a favor but behind your back they paying the Microsoft tax anyway.
Even if you build from scratch some manufacturers insist on supplying Microsoft with the blank drive (which is especially annoying if its a second drive).
RedHat including stuff free is perfectly acceptable. Unlike Internet Explorer you can uninstall programs if you want to. And these programs are actually REALLY FREE, not just "free" as INCLUDED in the overall price. Think Total cost of ownership.
There is nothing stopping Mandrake, or anyone else from including the same programs RedHat includes, in fact if Microsoft could even include these programs if they wanted. The programs would have to be recompiled for or ported to windows so long as they abide by the terms of the License (which is usually the GPL).
If fact Microsoft FTP is a recompile of a free program. Open it in text/hex editor and you will find this
@(#) Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California.
All rights reserved.
> FREE isn't that putting all the other developers at a disadvantage
Yes it is putting them at a disadvantage. The same way selling any better or cheaper product does.
It is at least a fair disadvantage, Microsoft wont even allow the author of VirtualDub to make a program that interoperates with ASF even though he indenpendantly reverse engineered it.
> backs the product with stable releases.
that is totally subjective.
Linux is has its flaws too and they are many so i wont go in to them here (ill file bug reports and make suggestions to the author).
At least with Linux i have more choice than just paying to upgrade to the next edition. At least with Linux i can make fixes myself or if i dont know how get trya and get some one to make the fixes for me.
--
Slashdot needs a spellchecker
> ever wondered what the A in AOL stands for?
A is for America
Whats your point?
The EU has a population of only 380 Million. It may be the largest market however.
> AOL is hardly a player in the European ISP market, so why should the EU bother prosecuting them?
AOL is a player here in the UK and they have the annoying advertisments to prove it.
Its true they are not a big force in Europe, they made a big mistake and were very slow to realise how many people wanted fixed rate unlimited/unmetered internet access (Europeans pay for local phone calls).
Dude, the microsoft tax dissapeared like 2 years ago. What planet are you on these days?
:)
http://www.pricewatch.com is full of 100's of thousands of vendors that will sell you a pc with linux, without linux with nt without nt or with whatever the hell you want.
You don't pay no microsoft tax unless your gullable enough to do so. If you buy from Dell, Compaq, IBM, gateway or any wintel vendor then what do you expect?
Buy hardware from Penguincomputing if you want linux.
BTW, AOL is more then c:\aol 6.0. You also have to goto the control panel, click add remove, click on system software, click on internet and uncheck the aol from there as well as goto c:\windows and delete aol installer in there and then you have to regedit the system because the aol installer leaveas all the info in there as well.
but were getting off topic. Just like i can say nothanks to an AOL cd at block buster you can say nothanks to Microsoft at the computer store.
I hardly see microsoft adds unless i buy a computer magazine. Hell, i get Maxim and freaking AOL disk is in there, i get a playboy and AOL is in there, i goto the movies and AOL has advertising everywhere. You watch closing credits and AOL is featured (since timewarner merged).
You watch tv and tons of aol commercials.
ANd yes, with a us population of residential mailboxes that AOL spams i'd say they're pretty much screwing up this planet with impossible to decompose & waiste full cd's and hard packaging.
i bought a monitor and it came with aol, i bought a motherboard and it came with aol, i bought tickets to a dave mathews concert and on the back was freaking you know what.. aol.
AOL owns a vast internet presence, AOL is the largest media presence on the net and with time warner, AOL owns the majority of the news networks (ala cnn.. ala time warner).
your forced to see aol everywhere..
Microsoft simply write/publish and operating system that is easy to use and is in demand everywhere.
i don't go to the crapper at dave & busters to see aol adverts on the pottie tvs.
but enough.. aol sucks.. microsoft sucks, linux sucks.. everyone should have used os2
A computer should come with a media player? Okay, for many consumers, I'll agree with that. But when did MS start making computers? They only produce the OS! Computer makers like Dell are the ones who sell the product to the consumer. They should be the ones who put together a complete hardware/software package that meets consumers needs. If Dell doesn't offer quite what you want, then you see what Gateway or CompUSA has. Maybe that means NO media player, and not paying extra for one! Ah, choice and competition....
I can't understand where this idea that MS is the sole authority on what bundled software appears on new computers came from. That makes about as much sense as Intel dictating what hard drives and video cards must be bundled with their chips. Dammit, MS, offer a basic OS and an optional "Plus" pack to consumers and OEMs and get this over with!
Whenever I see this argument, I always wonder where you draw the line...
A modern OS bundles hundreds of things that used to be extra cost add-ons. MS does it. Apple does it. So does every Unix workstation maker. Do we strip every add-on out of W2K and leave something like a bare kernel?
Eric
"Seven Deadly Sins? I thought it was a to-do list!"
> Why is Microsoft not allowed to distribte its multimedia
> play-back software while Apple can?
Microsoft's got a monopoly but Apple doesn't. Simple. Microsoft's also been found to illegally abuse their monopoly to gain entrance into other markets.
So the reason why they can't push their media player is the same reason why someone who gets convicted of drunk driving can't drive a car.
Don't like it? Tough.
Insert simplistic political, ideological, or personal proselytization here.
1) The original Beetle was never discontinued. I think they are still being made and sold in Mexico or were until a year or two ago.
2) They stopped selling it in the US because it's a fartmobile that couldn't meet 70s pollution regs.
I have a similar gripe. I've used winamp to play mp3 on my machines at work for I-don't-know-how-long. When our machines were replaced with W2K-pro, I started having problems with winamp playback hitching all the time. A solution I was given to this was to boost winamp's processing priority in the app's preferences. This worked like a charm, no more halts in playback.
Unfortunately, this started causing problems with the other apps (you know, the ones I'm supposed to be using for actual work?) either slowing down horribly or crashing. So guess what? Right, I stopped using winamp and switched to WMP because it was already there. It playsback mp3 flawlessly and doesn't cause any problems for my other apps.
Now, is this because Microsoft does something evil to keep winamp from performing acceptibly, or is it because of some fault in winamp and it's use of the system's resources (or both)?
Probably neither. Winamp has always worked just fine on the Windows machines I've used. No doubt MS has made changes with W2K that is causing winamp to hiccup, but I doubt it would be impossible for winamp to be 'fixed' to work better.
Does this mean I have no choice in a media player for Win2K? No, but I'm too busy(lazy) right now to go download musicmatch or sonique or one of the other free players to see if they work anybetter. WMP is good enough and it is already there. If that is anti-competitive (not defending MS, mind you) then I guess MS is guilty of being anti-competitive by providing an app that works on their OS.
There is much cruelty in the universe, John.
Yeah, we seem to have the tour map.
> Microsoft isn't squeezing out competition by including the media player in its software.
> If anything it is just attempting to keep up the times with the MAC people.
> Yes, Mac sucks, but it is renouned for its a/v interface.
This is listed as insightful? I'd call it flamebait.
Microsoft has a monopoly, and they've been found guilty of illegally abusing it. In the case they were found to have squeezed Apple regarding QuickTime where they were trying to illegally partition the market.
How many microsoft people do we have infiltrating slashdot these days? They must have the whole marketing department on here.
Insert simplistic political, ideological, or personal proselytization here.
"After all the windows media format is public knowledge with excellent SDK, server tools and media tools available."
And, after all, what prevents MS from changing said format at some future time, a la' the Word file format? The format's not a public *standard* that can't be changed w/o someone else's approval, it's still a MS file format which they can change anytime they want/feel the need to. Not Good in the long term.
1) The original Beetle was never discontinued. I think they are still being made and sold in Mexico or were until a year or two ago.
Only Brazil on whole Earth.
2) They stopped selling it in the US because it's a fartmobile that couldn't meet 70s pollution regs.
Volkswagen has been discountinued in Europe in late '70 because it was no longer profitable car. Export in Asia and Australia, as well as parts production on those continents were affected. Beatle project was just non-profitable.
Most folks posting seem to have forgotten that Microsoft has been judged to be a Monopoly by the US courts, and as a monopoly is subject to different rules. It can't use its position as a Monopoly to bundle software to the deteriment of the consumer.
European monopoly rules are different however. There Microsoft cannot bundle if it is to the deteriment of the consumer OR the conpetition.
This isn't about bundling. This is about Microsoft as a Monopoly bundling to further its Monopoly.
I am in the process of reloading my w2k system from scratch.... why????, because for the longest time I ran winamp to play my mp3's, and it sounded just fine. After installing (I am unsure which one) some service pack with the MS Media player playing mp3's with winamp became horrible, while the MS media player sounded just fine (like winamp used to sound before the patches). I don't know for sure if one of these patches hurt winamp, but I am going to find out. I have already had several friends ask me what happened to the music quality from my computer. Has anyone else experienced such a phenomenon? It wouldn't surprise me to find out that installing the newest MS Media Player crippled one of the api's going out to the sound card.
----------
No army can withstand the strength of an idea whose time has come.
- Victor Hugo
"It isn't hard to prove that MS leverages their proprietary knowledge of the OS to make special hooks for their applications and break others applications. "
So where is that proof ?
I have seen people bitch about that but I am yet to see any sort of proof ( I used to work with Win32 so you can be technical here)
"they leveraged their OS to destroy browser competition and put IE on top. "
No, they created better browser than Netscape did.
They go after MS for supposed monopoly in fucking SERVER market....
How fucking retarded is that ?
Dude, the microsoft tax dissapeared like 2 years ago...You don't pay no microsoft tax unless your gullable enough to do so. If you buy from Dell, Compaq, IBM, gateway or any wintel vendor then what do you expect?
...everyone should have used os2 :)
:)
So I guess it is still around then, huh? The manufactures you mentioned in your posts (Dell, IBM, et al) are the ones that have still have the MS tax. Yes MS stopped several years ago, but the mfg. still impose it. The resellers you do have a choice with, the mom & pop businesses, don't usually have AOL preinstalled, or if they do, can not install it if you wish.
Buy hardware from Penguincomputing if you want linux.
This contradicting your original argument that all PCs come with it installed already.
See, I can't even agree there either. I think VAX/VMS was the way to go.
Very likely the reason is the same as for including VBscripting support in e-mail clients..........
Do you think we're that stupid. Nothing is FREE. The only reason we have Linux for FREE (as in beer and speech) is because better people than I are giving there time to a great cause. The only reason M$ hands things out for free is to create dependency on their product. Once the have dependency on something, they will start putting the financial screws to you. I don't blame them for this, hell it is a great way to make money, but don't pander to us with your stupid simple-minded metaphors.
----------
No army can withstand the strength of an idea whose time has come.
- Victor Hugo
Your accusations of "crippling" are not true: you're repeating allegations that were debunked. I appreciate that you're a trolling AC, but let's at least bash MS for their *real* problems rather than distracting people with false claims. It discredits the Cause, mon.
I'm running the same system, winamp runs perfectly.
If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
Hmm...I'd take more issue with Realplayer being bundled with Netscape, main reason being that realplayer requires so much info to be entered as a 'registration'..it runs startcenter in the background, taking up system resources, and apparently is spyware (which i've heard about but not paid much attention to)
If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
...listening to these high-falutin arrogant Europeans whining about Microsoft.
I mean, gimme a break!
It is through the hard work and genuine innovation of entrepreneurs like Bill Gates that the United States today enjoys one of the best governments that money can buy. How can anyone stand for crybaby statements like:
"We find the bundling of MS Government with Windows XP to be an unfair cultural invasion and infringement of our traditional and hallowed values."
I'm glad that at least MS Business Mindset was not encumbered by all these petty concerns.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
I saw Final Fantasy the other day, and in the beginning it had "Warner Bros. An AOL/Time Warner Company".. whoaa I somehow felt astonished.. this big giant company.. :o .. it was probably more of a "seeing in real life stuff you've only seen in the internet before" wow.. :)
What time is it/will be over there? Check with my iPhone app!
Yo? Are you blind? He has.
As has been diligently pointed out elsewhere, their most telling illegal action has been requiring their OEMs to sign a secret agreement, one part of which says, in essence, that if the OEM wants to be included in Microsoft's 95% desktop market share, they don't offer alternative operating systems on Windows-equipped machines. This prevents the OEM from offering dual-boot systems, or systems with Linux installed and offering Win4Lin-backed Windows sessions. Your average user hasn't the competence to install an OS by themselves, end of market story.
Microsoft have done much illegal stuff, including some things that if done by an individual would be considered very shameful (like their latest astroturfing expedition) and know it's illegal, and occasionally even admit that they know it's illegal, and do still more illegal stuff to get out of paying the price for earlier crimes.
And while they're raping, murdering and hamstringing other companies and talking away your choices, their public relations firms paint a picture of them as innocent, try-hard `innovators' who are forced to protect their investments in a cut-throat market.
If it weren't for Microsoft, the market wouldn't be so cut-throat. They really are a flock of wolves dressed in carefully-presented lamb's fleece, bright and helpful individuals in their team notwithstanding. And you've been thoroughly sucked in by them.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
>So where is that proof ?
I remember one patch to Windows, sometime between '89 and '94, that caused all applications compiled with Borland's C compiler to crash. Every app vendor using Borland's C had to rush out updates to their customers. Borland was the most popular browser before that time; MSC took over soon after. I remember telling my boss: "you must use a MS compiler atop an MS OS".
I remember MSVC being able to debug windowed apps in a VM... which made it the best compiler (in my view) for windowed apps (no more locking up your system trying to debug). Trouble is, there were no published interfaces for making a VM... only MS compilers could do it.
I remember when IE came out and allowed you to make a web page your Windows background (and periodically update) -- Netscape couldn't do that -- it wasn't a published API.
Etc... I can't believe you were there and missed the tactics.
When I die, please cast my ashes upon Bill Gates -- for once, make him clean up after me!
If there's any software company that's more annoying, intrusive and just plain shady than Microsoft, Real is it. The GUID and cookies all default to enabled, but at least now you have the option to turn it off.
And remember to register with-
Email address: unsubscribe@real.com
ZIP code: 90210
XP borrows several features from Mandrake Linux, particularly in their installer. It's nice to see them exercising innovation, it's just a pity that it isn't Microsoft's innovation being exercised.
For those features, you don't have to wait. Mandrake's 8.1beta1 (Raklet) is at least as stable as XP, contains a lot more by way of useful applications, and doesn't tie you in to anything.
Oh, yes, and it's a free download.
BTW, if you live in the EU, write (as in pen and paper, their online comment system is closed) to the Competition Commission and ask why you can't buy a machine that dual-boots between Mandrake 8.1 and Windows XP. There is no <upside-down> HTML tag, so here's the answer: because Microsoft's secret OEM licencing forbids it. Oh, yes, we support innovation. But only the right brand of innovation.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Speaking of justice systems and how the world works, EU Competition Commission have closed their electronic `mail' system. If you live in the EU, please send a pen-and-paper letter to them asking why you can't buy a new computer at retail which dual-boots between a Microsoft operating system and another operating system such as Linux or BeOS.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
When Sun, Oracle and AOL have monopolies in Europe, the EU trustbusters will only have themselves to blame.
hehe
/. know about this kind of stuff, we have our fingers on the pulse of what's happening. unfortunately, we constitute a small minority. we are not a target market...
i actually avoided the solution in my post didn't i! your view point is 100% correct - and very unfortunate, isn't it.
the only option really is for microsoft to license the real and apple api and to support it in their media player. problem is, why would they want to do that? if they can get their format all over the show, they needn't fork out the extra $ so that they can be "compatible" (i use "" because, as you said, there is no standard streaming format other than mpeg that is considerable).
this sparks off a number of debates really...
the first, and most significant boils down to point of the original post. ignoring the other factors about real's spyware and their business model, microsoft have effectively wiped out the competition by bundling media player with their operating system. they took somebody else's idea, made it better (debate, yes!) and offered it along with their operating system. so, effectively, their end-to-end operating system principle is anti-competitive. i know that's a very broad and subjective statement, but i'm not a lawyer and i don't REALLY know who's software is better. all i know is that i've had my new windows box for 2 months now, and i haven't bothered to install real whereas it used to be on my good old installs cd.
it also proves another point - the cost of innovation (when last did microsoft innovate anything other than "user-friendly" software)
the second debate is actually back to your point about a standard media format. we used to have this, its actually in most satellite tv receivers all over the world - mpeg2. 4/5 years ago, when real was a great piece of software, a 56k modem was THE DEAL. you couldn't really watch mpeg on it, so real just compressed the data even more and gave us a viable streaming solution. now a 512k dsl/cable/whatever connection is THE DEAL. surely with that kind of bandwidth on hand players could revert back to a slightly more bandwidth intensive standard, yet a standard nontheless?
anyway. drone drone, waffle, waffle.
another little side point. in response to shiva600's comment about the open source and FREE darwin streamer. great, cool, i love it. but still. the fact remains - you still have to download and know about the goddamn player. we here at
The part that caught my eye was at the beginning of the press release:
I used to work for IBM. We had a problem where our software would crash for no apparent reason. One of our engineers spent six weeks reverse engineering part of Windows to discover the cause of our random crashes.
The engineer discovered a mutex (a mutex controls access to shared resources) which could be accessed in two ways:
We found out that when a Microsoft product accessed that mutex, anyone who had a lock through the public interface would suddenly lose that lock and the Microsoft product would take over. This did two things: it gave Microsoft products a performance advantage, and it caused random errors in non-Microsoft products.
I can not speak for the previous AC, but this experience tells me that Microsoft deliberately cripples its competitors' products.