Sklyarov, Elcomsoft Plead Not Guilty

squared99 writes: "I'm sure it has already flooded slashdot, but Dmitri has entered his plea, not guilty. This NYTimes article talks about it. Not sure I like the mention of bumper stickers, as opposed to the real people who have been protesting, but at least it talks about the support he has been getting. It even appeared as one the main newsworthy item on my daily NYTimes newsletter, Yay! Let's keep up the support and protests. As my brother said to me the other day, "The only way to beat bullies is to stand up to them."" See also Elcomsoft's statement about the case, a story in the Boston Globe, and this cute fable about a DMCA future. Update: 08/31 19:37 PM GMT by M : one more link - the Russian Foreign Ministry has warned its programmers not to travel to the United States.

Comments

hey

[Anonymous Coward]

i know..

Re:hey

[Anonymous Coward]

first reply to first post !

Has it been 20 seconds yet ?

Re:hey

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a professional troll with a minor in Tedious Studies. Hear my r0aRRRRRRRRRRRRR
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awards for malda: 0

fp

[lunchroombob]

fp

EVERYBODY LOVES POKEY!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

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Subject: Comment (Use the Preview Button! Check those URLs! Don't forget the http://!) Post Anonymously Allowed HTML:

1. • 
     * Important Stuff: Please try to keep posts on topic. * Try to reply to other people comments instead of starting new threads. * Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. * Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. * Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page) Problems regarding accounts or comment posting should be sent to CowboyNeal. Unfair animal names: -- tsetse fly -- bullhead -- booby -- duck-billed platypus -- sapsucker -- Clarence -- mmmmmmmmmmmmm m mmmm
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Re:EVERYBODY LOVES POKEY!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Not me!

We need better sign makers

[Anonymous Coward]

Those hand-scribbled signs written on torn out spiral-bound notebook paper just doesn't cut it.

Re:We need better sign makers

[wysoft]

Neither does that "You are stupid" binry shirt from ThinkGeek.

Guilty!

[Spootnik]

Why should we support a criminal? Answer me!

No matter how you hate Adobe or big corps, Dmitri is guilty, let's face it.

Re:Guilty!

[Anonymous Coward]

You fool! Next time I'll get mod points, I'll use all five of them to mod five of your posts down. And I'm sure many others will do the same. Ya know, Overrated mods don't show up in metamod. That'll teach you to post your tripe anonymously next time.

Re:Guilty!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey,

Just because your a spammer doesn't mean you can't be right. You're dead on the money, this guy is guilty. Let him fry.

Here's what I hope they do with the DMCA

[Anonymous Coward]

___....---"""".
." ". D \
/ \ M i
i i i
i__ _ i C i
" "\\ i i
|| i A i
__.// i _ . - "i
\ i- " i
i ii D i
\ / i i
"._.--"i M i
i i
i C i
i _i
i A _.-"
i _.-"
i-"

Important stuff:

• Try to keep posts on topic.
• Try to reply to other people comments instead of starting new threads.
• Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said.
• Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about.
• Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)

Problems regarding accounts or comment posting should be sent to CowboyNeal.

Re:Here's what I hope they do with the DMCA

[Anonymous Coward]

That is some excellent ASCII art. Nice-looking post (and the text).

Re:Here's what I hope they do with the DMCA

[Anonymous Coward]

May I suggest a small change?

___....---"""".
." ". D \
/ \ I i
i i M i
i__ _ i I i
" "\\ i T i
|| i R i
__.// i _i . - "i
\ i- " i
i ii Prison i
\ / i i
"._.--"i Bitch i
i i
i Ass i
i _i
i Blotter_.-"
i _.-"
i-"

Now I belive this fine art is back on topic!

Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Kiss the Blade]

But he is guilty in the eyes of the law, as far as I can see. The DMCA may be an unfair law, and not 'justice', but there is a greater thing at stake here - the overall Justice of the law. Even where the law is wrong it must be obeyed, and must only be amended through democratic action. I for one support the actions against Skylarov, with heavy heart, for I support the rule of law above all else.

This is not to say I won't be campaigning against the DMCA, however.

I think I am in line with the more controversial commentators on this issue, but I feel it is the only honest line.

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[SirGeek]

But what he did is perfectly legal in his country.

They require that you be able to create back up copies of your products.

What do you think would happen if EVERY GEEK in this country went and formed a class action suit against all the companies that use copy protection schemes. We might have a case because we have the right to create a backup copy of our electronic media.

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't see how you can defend someone who uses copyright law to make a profit on one hand and then breaks copyright law to make a profit on the other. I have no respect for that.

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[cmorriss]

"Even where the law is wrong it must be obeyed"

Is the criminal justice system not part of our democracy? You seem to imply laws can only be changed if the Congress passes a law to repeal it. That's not true at all. If the law is unconsititutional, the judicial system has more than enough power to declare it so.

Sounds like you're fighting for the wrong side.

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[gwallen3141]

Guilty of what, exactly? He created a 'circumvention device' but he didn't do it here. As far as I know he didn't try to market/sell/distribute a 'circumvention device' - his employer did. He did speak about a 'circumvention device' in this country but in a scholarly fashion at a professional conference.

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahh, but his defence minght be that the law is unconstitutional or is superceeded by an older law etc etc.. in that case he would plead not guilty. This could be a great thing for everyone not just him.

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Anonymous Coward]

"Even where the law is wrong it must be obeyed", huh... Well, he was obeying the law in his own country and he wasn't breaking any laws in America. He was arrested for what he did on Russian soil. What's next, the US Authorities going to London and picking up someone and arresting them for something the American Government doesn't like, irregardless of political boundaries and jurisdictions?

America is taking the "police the world" thing too far.

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Anonymous Coward]

But what he did is perfectly legal in his country.

But they imported the software & primarily distributed to the US. You need to read the indictment because they specifically cite actions that happened on US soil.

Businesses incorporated in the US can't go around breaking the law in the US just because some of their employees are not US citizens.

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Remote]

I fully agree with the gist of your post, but let's not call him guilty, that's not up to you or I to say. If you are such a strong believer in Justice of the Law, let the courts decide. And yes, I saw the "as far as I can see" part.

On a side note: what I understand from this is that everyone who is or has been an employee of ElcomSoft, or anyone who has somehow contributed to the "effort" is subjected to arrest upon entering the USA. Maybe one wouldn't even need to enter the USA (think Noriega). I think this extreme scenario highlights how law and justice can be apart, as you suggested.

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Anonymous Coward]

Guilty of what, exactly?...he didn't...his employer did...

Read the indictment, its very specific, it does also charge his employer, and the actions that he/they were charged with did happen in the US.

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Pi-Zero Meson]

"It is the duty of every just citizen to disobey any unjust law"
HDT

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Anonymous Coward]

They have not arrested his employer. They have arrested Slyarov who has done nothing in this country except give a lecture which would be protected by the 1st Amendment to the United States constitution.

If he had been an executive of Elcomsoft they would have a case. He is not, to my knowledge, an executive or member of the board of directors, or a controlling stockholder. I think, with proper lawyering, he will win.

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Anonymous Coward]

He was arrested for what he did on Russian soil.

no he wasn't.

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[tshak]

Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice, but he is guilty in the eyes of the law, as far as I can see.

Not quite. Two simple points prove this statement wrong:

• It is arguable if parts of the DMCA is constitutional. If the law is unconstitutional, it can not be upheld.
  
• It is arguable if he violated the DMCA while in the US.
  

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Anonymous Coward]

"It is the duty of every just citizen to disobey any unjust law? HDT

Sklyarov isn't a citizen.

Seriously, I have yet to hear one _valid_ use of this system. Text-to-speech is offered by the Adobe software, and backups/archiving can happen in encrypted form. If you know of one good reason why you should be able to decrypt ebooks without having a valid key from the authors, let me know.

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Xanlexian]

Just a quick note --- We're (the USA) a republic, not a democracy.

--Xan

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Chris Y Taylor]

As cmorriss points out, laws in the U.S. are not only amended through the legislature, they are also declared null and void if they are found unconstitutional by The Court. This does NOT require any sort of "democratic action". In fact, if the Supreme Court rules that a law is unconstitutional then it doesn't matter how popular it is with the public, it is gone. Personally I rather like it that way; it prevents a "tyranny of the majority" and protects even unpopular rights and the rights of unpopular groups (to a point).

I suspect DMCA is very unconstitutional, and hopefully if EFF can make a good enough case The Court can be convinced to overturn it; so supporting them in this effort is important.

Your "democratic action" does have its place. Even if it doesn't reverse this law, making your displeasure over DMCA known (in an thoughtful, clear fashion) to your representatives in Congress gives them feedback on the quality of their legislation and may prevent future similar "bad laws" from being enacted in the 1st place. This feedback is very important, but often times legislatures get insulated from the results of their work, and then some poor person (like Dimitri) has to be the "test case" victim to get it corrected in The Courts.

"Democratic action" has its place, but democracy (or in our case a republic) without constitutional restrictions and a judiciary system is tyranny waiting to happen.

While in theory I also disagree that all "wrong laws" must be obeyed, in this context the difference is only academic. The injustices and tragedies of war are so great that I think the laws must be very, very wrong and very, very uncorrectable before that step can be justified. But having your gov't know in the back of their mind that they could never rule out such a response is a useful deterrence to extremist bureaucrats.

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Sarcasmooo!]

I would've partly agreed with you a few days ago, because if there's even a significant chance that he could be convicted, I would prefer to see him take a plea and get back to Russia. But I'm no lawyer, and I assume you're not either. I don't support the actions against him, for that reason, and for the same reasons fcd pointed out; that, by our nature, Americans don't support the rule (as in reign) of law. I can't pretend to know better than the EFF lawyers what path to take. Anyway, wouldn't those scales of justice things that sit in courtrooms mean something here?

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Anonymous Coward]

They have not arrested his employer

Its impossible to "arrest an employer", but they have indicted Elcomsoft Co. Ltd., as I said in the message you responded to. They are plainly listed as a defendant in the indictment that you didn't bother to read.

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[schon]

Its impossible to "arrest an employer"

Bullshit.

An "employer" can be a person, just as easily as it can be a corporation.

In the case of it being a corp, you arrest the board of directors, or the owner, or whoever is in charge. Simple.

In fact, the president of Elcomsoft (Alexander Katalov) came to the conference with Dmitry, and yet he wasn't arrested.

So again, they haven't arrested his employer.

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[xcomputer_man]

I guess this would make a very interesting poll:

All who agree with the statement "The DMCA is an evil communist law.", say AYE.

Mayday, mayday, XComputer_Man to Slashdot: do you copy? Still no response.

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Col. Panic]

what I understand from this is that everyone who is or has been an employee of ElcomSoft, or anyone who has somehow contributed to the "effort" is subjected to arrest upon entering the USA

I'm not so sure about this. Sklyarov gave a speech in the U.S., but the development was done in Russia, so I don't know if anyone else in the company can be prosecuted unless they too try to market the software in the US.

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Noer]

Sometimes, the only way to wake the public up to the fact that some laws are immoral or unjust is to violate those laws.

What if the State prohibited protest, and in fact prohibited trying to change the law in any way. Then even "democratic action" to change that law would be illegal. Thus, violating the law could be considered a moral imperative.

To put it another way, laws exist to try to keep society ordery. But when the laws are unjust, they must be changed, and it is possible that those laws will need to be broken to reform them. Laws do not equate to morals. I think there are many things that are illegal but not immoral, as well as many things that ARE immoral but not illegal.

Not everybody has the same morals, though on a Federal level this country has unified laws. However, some of those laws have been bought and paid for by large corporations, in a very undemocratic manner. When corporate lobbyists and greedy politicians ignore their constituents (which is easy since most Americans are now complacent tv-absorbing vegetables anyways, thanks to corporate america and the dumbing-down of media as well as education) then democracy is broken.

Turn it around - what if the law REQUIRED that all Blacks and Jews be rounded up and turned into the police for extermination. You'd be violating the law by providing safe harbor to those people whose lives were at stake. Would such a violation of the law be wrong? When slaves in America were just property with no rights, were the people who freed and protected them from unjust laws doing something wrong? How is it forgivable to obey the law (and thus allow innocent people to suffer) just because you don't want to break the law?

There's another point to be made. It's damn hard to get a law overturned, especially if nobody's been affected by it. If Sklyarov and the EFF manage to get the DMCA repealed (or modified), by showing how the law as it stands is unjust, then wasn't Sklyarov doing the RIGHT thing (albeit unknowingly) by violating an unjust law and thus provoking a TEST CASE to get the unjust law thrown out?

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Anonymous Coward]

So again, they haven't arrested his employer.

So what? They've indicted Elcomsoft, which makes the point I was trying to make - that they did go after the company in addition to Sklyarov. Do you actually want Katalov arrested, or is just the indictment against his company OK?

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[rking]

But they imported the software & primarily distributed to the US. You need to read the indictment because they specifically cite actions that happened on US soil.

Actions by Dmitry Skylarov?
Businesses incorporated in the US can't go around breaking the law in the US just because some of their employees are not US citizens.

Whether any business anywhere committed any offence under any law isn't even an issue here. The question is whether Dmitry Sklyarov did. The idea of arresting someone on the basis of allegations against his employer is utterly abhorrent.

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[rking]

So what are you saying he was arrested for? That document details that he wrote a program, in Russia not in the USA. It details that his employer, for whom he perfectly lawfully wrote the program (in Russia, remember?) sold the program over the internet. It also details that he was scheduled to talk at a conference.

Which action by him, NOT his employer are you saying he was arrested for? The ONLY thing that document says he did on US soil was being scheduled to give a speech at a conference. Is that it?

I assume you did actually read the substance of the allegations, not just the charges?

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Anonymous Coward]

Actions by Dmitry Skylarov?

I'm not going to walk you through the indictment. If you don't want to read it that's fine, but please refrain from replying until you obtain at least the slightest bit of information about the case, such as what he's charged with. Whether any business anywhere committed any offence under any law isn't even an issue here.

Well, since Elcomsoft is listed as a defendent, I'd say it is. This is pretty standard - if you smuggle in drugs they don't drop the charges just because you're working for a drug lord. "I was just following orders" went out in the 40s.

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Anonymous Coward]

"Even where the law is wrong it must be obeyed"

I believe this is called the nuremberg defense (because it is what the nazi war criminals said during their trials) either way, it's not absolutely true in a legal sense and it's absolutely not true in an ethical one.
(ditto to Xanlexians comment about democracy, we ain't one and it's a good thing)

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Anonymous Coward]

So what are you saying he was arrested for? The ONLY thing that document says he did on US soil was being scheduled to give a speech at a conference. Is that it?

I assume you did actually read the substance of the allegations, not just the charges?

Goddamn, I'm tired of helping people comprehend basic English text: all five counts indict both Elcomsoft AND Sklyarov with the actions listed. That's what the "ELCOM LTD. and DMITRY SKLYAROV" means when it lists the defendants for each count, and it didn't "happen in Russia" since all five are trafficking charges (which means that they are related to the act of the defendants of bringing the software into the United States), which you can be charged with regardless of what country you come from (c.f. drug lords). Is that clear? I hope you can understand that.

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Anonymous Coward]

The DMCA may be an unfair law, and not 'justice', but there is a greater thing at stake here - the overall Justice of the law. Even where the law is wrong it must be obeyed, and must only be amended through democratic action.

Nonsense. The DMCA is a purchased law. I don't feel obligated to obey purchased laws. I know, you want to preserve respect for the Law, but in my mind, that died the day my suffrage was sold by my representatives. Further, democratic action doesn't work in the face of widespread governmental corruption. The only remaining way to change the law, is to break the law.

Now 'scuze me while I go change the law some more.

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[spankfish]

All who agree with the statement "The DMCA is an evil communist law.", say AYE.

Close. I'd say it's an evil plutocrats' law.

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[SlippyToad]

The problem is, the DMCA diminishes our respect for the law, and those who create it. It was so clearly bought for the narrow goals a special interest group, and passed almost in secret. It demonstrates the depth of corruption in our government, and the moral bankruptcy of our culture. That a corporation needs to take away the rights of citizens (who happen to be their customers, but are citizens of a free country first) to be curious about the nature of the product they buy, in order to prevent a corporation's unnatural business model, is a sign that the corporation has lost touch with reality, and expects society to perserve its existence and profits in spite of its obvious flaws. E-books don't work, and won't work. No one wants pay-per-read, pay-per-view, or pay-per-listen. The enraged public reaction to Divx proved that conclusively.

Even where the law is wrong it must be obeyed,

A law this wrong cannot be obeyed. It forbids a broad range of activities under which almost anyone involved in digital information technology could be culpable. It is for all appearances designed to produce a witch hunt-style atmosphere among computer intelligentsia which will paralyze criticism and independent thought. Any one of us could be guilty of circumventing encryption technology by peeking where we ought not. It treats programming as a black art, and criminalizes casual behavior that may or may not have real criminal intent.

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Anonymous Coward]

AYE

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Anonymous Coward]

umm, they hosted the download site for aebpr in the US, and they collected payments through a registration service in the US. Is this not "market[ting] the software in the US"??????

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[rking]

I'm not going to walk you through the indictment [usdoj.gov]. If you don't want to read it that's fine, but please refrain from replying until you obtain at least the slightest bit of information about the case, such as what he's charged with.

I have read it. What I'm wondering is whether you have. None of it mentions Dmitry Sklyarov being involved in selling software in the USA. It talks about him authoring it in Russia, where it was lawful for him to do so, it talks about his employers selling it through a distributor in the USA, it talks about him being scheduled to give a speech at a conference in the USA.

Whether any business anywhere committed any offence under any law isn't even an issue here.

Well, since Elcomsoft is listed as a defendent, I'd say it is.

To the charges against Elcomsoft, sure. But not to the charges against Dmitry Sklyarov. He did not sell software in the USA.

This is pretty standard - if you smuggle in drugs they don't drop the charges just because you're working for a drug lord. "I was just following orders" went out in the 40s.

But NOTHING in the indictment suggests that Dmitry Sklyarov did anything remotely analogous to smuggling in drugs. He wasn't selling or otherwise distributing the software in the USA.

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Anonymous Coward]

WELSH COCKS

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[jcr]

"Even where the law is wrong it must be obeyed"

Hogwash. When the law is wrong, it is the DUTY of decent people to disobey it.

-jcr

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Anonymous Coward]

None of it mentions Dmitry Sklyarov being involved in selling software in the USA... He did not sell software in the USA...He wasn't selling or otherwise distributing the software in the USA.

11. as part of the conspiracy, and to further the objects therof, the defendents committed the following overt acts in the Norther District of California:

a. Beginning on or about June 20, 2001, the defendants offered the Advanced eBook Processor for sale in San Jose, California, and elsewhere, on the elcomsoft.com website
b. On or about June 26, 2001, the defendants caused a purchaser in California to send a payment of approximately $99 to RegNow; and
c. On or about June 26, 2001, the defendants sent registration key for a copy of the AEBPR program to an individual purchaser in San Jose, California, who had made a payment of approximately $99 to RegNow,
All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 371

(Note "the defendants" are expressly listed in this count as both Dmitri and Elcomsoft.)

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Anonymous Coward]

P L E A S E: Do not feed the Trolls!

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Anonymous Coward]

It is a little known fact that it is not merely the defendant, but the law that is on trial in a jury trial.
A jury can aquit a man, even if he is clearly guilty under law, if they believe the law is 'wrong'.
The classic example dates back to the 16th century in England when a jury refused to convict two men accused of blasphemy.
Until the mid 19th century, it was required that the jury be informed of this option. However, this is no longer the case, and is rarely brought to the attention of jurors, even by the defence team.
Maybe this would be a good time to try this?

Re:Skylarov not guilty in the eyes of Justice

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, did they host the site or did they merely commission a provider to do so? So they employed agents in this country to advertise and collect fees for their product - big deal. They are an off-shore company that has done some business here, but is not located in the States. The government can shut down their website - case closed.

- Why Open Source / Linux Sucks -

[Anonymous Coward]

The terms "opensource" and "Linux" are nothing but buzzwords created by the jews to promote free-software, when in fact they are without a doubt profiting highly from this so-called "free" software.

The terms "opensource" and "Linux" are nothing but buzzwords created by the jews to promote free-software, when in fact they are without a doubt profiting highly from this so-called "free" software..

The terms "opensource" and "Linux" are nothing but buzzwords created by the jews to promote free-software, when in fact they are without a doubt profiting highly from this so-called "free" software...

The terms "opensource" and "Linux" are nothing but buzzwords created by the jews to promote free-software, when in fact they are without a doubt profiting highly from this so-called "free" software....

The terms "opensource" and "Linux" are nothing but buzzwords created by the jews to promote free-software, when in fact they are without a doubt profiting highly from this so-called "free" software.....

The terms "opensource" and "Linux" are nothing but buzzwords created by the jews to promote free-software, when in fact they are without a doubt profiting highly from this so-called "free" software......

The terms "opensource" and "Linux" are nothing but buzzwords created by the jews to promote free-software, when in fact they are without a doubt profiting highly from this so-called "free" software.......

The terms "opensource" and "Linux" are nothing but buzzwords created by the jews to promote free-software, when in fact they are without a doubt profiting highly from this so-called "free" software........

dimitry is an ass, heres the pic to prove it

[Anonymous Coward]

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o | / | | \ | o
a | | / \ \ | a
t | / / | | \ |t
s | / / \/\/ | |s
e | / / | | | |e
x | | | | | |x
* g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x *

Re:dimitry is an ass, heres the pic to prove it

[Anonymous Coward]

5. So, Mr. Sklyarov, how did you pass your time in prision?
4. What is your opinion of Adobe's 'l33+ 'cryp+10n 5k1||z?
3. What's your opionon of the justness of the DMCA?
2. How was the food in prison?
1. Can I have my watch back?

This story best experienced with

[Anonymous Coward]

..
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:8 `88888888'
-8 _dF""""
`8ouo8"
"^"

Re:This story best experienced with

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft supernerds are our superiors!
You cannot argue with the manifest truth. Just look at IE versus Mozilla.

COMPSEX

[Anonymous Coward]

I had sex with my computer today

Re:COMPSEX

[Anonymous Coward]

G4 tower?

Re:COMPSEX

[Anonymous Coward]

Me too! I also had sex with your computer. I hope you washed it!

Love those smooth round Apple mice.

Protests are nice and alll...

[DESADE]

But does anyone really think that protest, bumper stickers and popular support will really do anything to make the feds pull back? We're talking about the Bush administration here. It might be better to put the money into some hired gun lawyers. I think the only way to win this one is a good fight in the courts. Otherwise, our friend from Russia will be the poster boy for what happens when you f##k with the DMCA.

Re:Protests are nice and alll...

[brlewis]

Without action to raise public awareness, people will think laws are being passed to "protect intellectual property" rather than to take away constitutional rights for the convenience of industry.

or, as most sheeple say

[Anonymous Coward]

As the average person I've run into will state:

"If he hadn't been doing that bad stuff, he wouldn't be in this situation. He deserves what he gets."

Seriously, folks. Your average American believes that if Uncle Sam says you've done something wrong then you have. And if you have, then you deserve to have your constitutional rights trampled on and you deserve to be treated like a dog.

Further, the American people obviously believe that it's wrong to hold American's captive in foreign lands and hold them accountable for crimes supposedly committed in whatever country they are in but it's alright for us to do whatever we want to foreigners visiting OUR country. God bless hypocrisy.

Michael, slashdot post old story

[Anonymous Coward]

Sims denied that the recent CHAOS^H^H^H^H^H problems with slashdot was due to a migration to IIS/MSSQL server.

1984

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone here who hasn't had a chance to read it yet really should.

Just remember that the book was first published in 1949.

slashdot = censorware.

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like slashdot is deleting comments in old stories. This article had an ASCII goatse.cx as the first comment in its archived, shtml version. Now that it's been imported back into the database, the comment is nowhere to be found.

.

Looks like slashdot is deleting comments in old stories. This article had an ASCII goatse.cx as the first comment in its archived, shtml version. Now that it's been imported back into the database, the comment is nowhere to be found.

Dmitry's so hot! He makes me want to

[Anonymous Coward]

+* j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f *+
* \ \ \ *
j / \ \ j
a \ \ a
c \ \ c
k / \ \ \/,,..---v--. k
o ,,\.--"""\/ \ o
f \ > f
f / f
* /vvv\..---""'`-' *
j ,,. j
a / \ \hhh/ a
c c
k k
o \ \ o
f \ \/ f
f \ f
* \ *
j j
a a
c c
k k
o o
f f
f f
* *
+* j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f *+

* mportant Stuff: Please try to keep posts on topic. * Try to reply to other people comments instead of starting new threads. * Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. * Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. * Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page) Problems regarding accounts or comment posting should be sent to CowboyNeal.

THIS JUST IN!

[oliphaunt]

See what President Georege W. Bush has to say about this!

ok, so I'm lying. At least it't not goat related.

Re:THIS JUST IN!

[j7953]

Well, he certainly manages to make Slashdot stories look much better.

REGGE DUNLOP

[Spootnik]

Vot' garçon m'a l'air d'une future tapette. Vous êtes mieux d'vous r'marriez sans ça y'a des chances qu'un beaux matins vous r'trouviez vot' gars en train d'sucer un homme!

Miscommunication

[omarius]

"The only way to beat bullies is to stand up to them."

I read this as,

"The only way to beat bullets is to stand up to them."

and thought, ummmm, "No."

:P,

-Omar

Re:Miscommunication

[greyrat]

I read it correctly and still thought, ummmm, "No."

Re:Miscommunication

[bonzoesc]

Maybe they got confused and meant "The only way to beat bullies is bullets." Remember, ranged weapons are here for the scrawny guys like us.

Re:Miscommunication

[Chris Y Taylor]

What about: "The only way to beat bullies is asymmetric warfare"?

Re:Miscommunication

[SuiteSisterMary]

"The Gods made us all, but Armour-Piercing Discarding Sabot rounds made us all equal."

Re:Miscommunication

[sacrilicious]

Maybe they got confused and meant "The only way to beat bullies is bullets."

When I first read it, I thought it said "the only way to beat bullets is to stand up to them." I thought wow, SOMEBODY really liked The Matrix.

A little late

[Staciebeth]

Why did it take Slashdot so long to post this story? I used to come to Slashdot to get news before I could get it elsewhere, but I heard this at 7 AM on NPR! Sheesh.

Re:A little late

[Anonymous Coward]

Shut the fuck up and quit whining. If you don't like slashdot, then fucking leave. Fucking wanker.

Re:A little late

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yes, mustn't criticize the blessed slashdot! Shame shame shame.

Rumor has it that Dmitry writes spamming tools

[Russ Nelson]

Rumor has it that Dmitry spends his spare time when not breaking into ebooks writing spaming software. You know, for scraping web pages and spamming the addresses found there. Can anyone verify this rumor (No, I won't tell you where I heard it, because the idea is to get another independent source for it).
-russ

Re:Rumor has it that Dmitry writes spamming tools

[Anonymous Coward]

Take your black propaganda and SUYA!

Re:Rumor has it that Dmitry writes spamming tools

[Anonymous Coward]

Good, good, following the journalist's code of ethics where it states, 'two rumors = truth'

Re:Rumor has it that Dmitry writes spamming tools

[Anonymous Coward]

Can't one simply go to the website of his employer and see that they're selling email address harvesting software? I don't have the link but I remember seeing it here in a previous article on this guy.

He's the worst kind of techie. He writes code that enables clueless fucks to spam the us.

Re:Rumor has it that Dmitry writes spamming tools

[Russ Nelson]

Funny how politically unpopular postings are "offtopic" and "trolls". Dmitry works for a company that sells spam tools. He's not a virgin. We can tell, because he's fucked us.
-russ

Bend over for Bubba, Dmitry!

[Anonymous Coward]

* g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x *
g g
o / \ \ / \ o
a| | \ | | a
t| `. | | : t
s` | | \| | s
e \ | / / \\\ -- \\ : e
x \ \/ --~~ ~--| \ | x
* \ \-~ ~-\ | *
g \ \ .--------.__\| | g
o \ \_// ((> \ | o
a \ . C ) _ ((> | / a
t /\ | C )/ \ (> |/ t
s / /\| C) | (> / \ s
e | ( C__)\__/ // / / \ e
x | \ | \\__// (/ | x
* | \ \) `---- --' | *
g | \ \ / / | g
o | / | | \ | o
a | | / \ \ | a
t | / / | | \ |t
s | / / \/\/ | |s
e | / / | | | |e
x | | | | | |x
* g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x *

laws can be illegal

[Mdog]

I agree that what he did was illegal under the terms of the DMCA, but that doesn't mean that he couldn't be found innocent.

IANAL, but when a law is in contradiction to the constitution, as I and many of you believe the DMCA is, you're innocent (in theory.)

Re:laws can be illegal

[Anonymous Coward]

And you needn't wait for the legislature to set you free, if the judge fails to do that it is well within the power of any jury to declare the law not valid in the instance of your particular case: http://www.fija.org/

Burning Dmitry

[zangdesign]

This article on WIRED shows what is probably the general level of concern for most Americans. Especially the final quote.

Re:Burning Dmitry

[Pope Slackman]

The "FREE DIMITRY with every purchase" was great.
Funniest thing I've read today.

C-X C-S

What did we expect.

[BrookHarty]

What did we expect, For him to plead guilty?

News seems rather light on the details, how about some urls to transcripts. These 1 line news tidbits isnt cutting it.

I hope he wins

[Anonymous Coward]

I really hope Sklyarov wins this case. If he ends up in jail, all the assrape is going to make him look like this:


* g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x *
g g
o / \ \ / \ o
a| | \ | | a
t| `. | | : t
s` | | \| | s
e \ | / / \\\ -- \\ : e
x \ \/ --~~ ~--| \ | x
* \ \-~ ~-\ | *
g \ \ .--------.__\| | g
o \ \_// ((> \ | o
a \ . C ) _ ((> | / a
t /\ | C )/ \ (> |/ t
s / /\| C) | (> / \ s
e | ( C__)\__/ // / / \ e
x | \ | \\__// (/ | x
* | \ \) `---- --' | *
g | \ \ / / | g
o | / | | \ | o
a | | / \ \ | a
t | / / | | \ |t
s | / / \/\/ | |s
e | / / | | | |e
x | | | | | |x
* g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x *

- STOP RACISM AGAINST ANONYMOUS COWARDS -

[Anonymous Coward]

..

..

..

..

..

..

..

..

..

..

..
Has anyone noticed that posts by Anonymous Cowards seem to get unfairly moderated down only by the fact that they are being posted anonymously? Surely there would be public outrage if blacks and jews were being unfairly moderated. Has anyone noticed that posts by Anonymous Cowards seem to get unfairly moderated down only by the fact that they are being posted anonymously? Surely there would be public outrage if blacks and jews were being unfairly moderated. Has anyone noticed that posts by Anonymous Cowards seem to get unfairly moderated down only by the fact that they are being posted anonymously? Surely there would be public outrage if blacks and jews were being unfairly moderated. Has anyone noticed that posts by Anonymous Cowards seem to get unfairly moderated down only by the fact that they are being posted anonymously? Surely there would be public outrage if blacks and jews were being unfairly moderated. Has anyone noticed that posts by Anonymous Cowards seem to get unfairly moderated down only by the fact that they are being posted anonymously? Surely there would be public outrage if blacks and jews were being unfairly moderated. Has anyone noticed that posts by Anonymous Cowards seem to get unfairly moderated down only by the fact that they are being posted anonymously? Surely there would be public outrage if blacks and jews were being unfairly moderated. Has anyone noticed that posts by Anonymous Cowards seem to get unfairly moderated down only by the fact that they are being posted anonymously? Surely there would be public outrage if blacks and jews were being unfairly moderated.

law and guilt

[Proud Geek]

Sklyarov is clearly guilty of violating the DMCA. The not guilty plea is stupid nonsense.

I'm not saying he should be charged or jailed or such. God forbid I support the government's actions here. Thing is, the issue isn't his guilt (as he is clearly guilty) but why the DMCA exists in the first place.

Don't proclaim Sklyarov's innocence, because he isn't. Instead, proclaim the injustice of a law that imposes draconian punishments for things that should not be illegal in the first place.

Re:law and guilt

[Anonymous Coward]

No he isn't guilty of violating the DMCA. As far as I know, the DMCA is an American law and although America often resembles a Communist, Socialist, Big-Brother dictatorship, Russia is not a part of America.

Re:law and guilt

[furiousgeorge]

Please explain how is is guilty of doing work in another country where this activity isn't illegal? When did the US's jurisdiction become international.

There's probably fifty things you've done today that are crimes in other countries (read much about Afghanistan lately) - keep things in perspective.

ALSO - if you plead guilty, then this doesn't go through the courts with the potential result of the DMCA being declared unconstitutional. If everybody pleads guilty there is ZERO chance of the law being struck down.

Don't be obtuse.

Re:law and guilt

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn, I thought he was innocent till proven guilty.

Re:law and guilt

[DA_MAN_DA_MYTH]

Sklyarov is clearly guilty of violating the DMCA. The not guilty plea is stupid nonsense.

Why plead guilty? As far as he is concerned he did nothing wrong, and if anything he should be protected by the Constitution under free speech or something of that nature (Although it seems corporations these days have more rights these days than us normal people, the DMCA is just a Jim Crowe law for non-corporations :) ). By pleading not-guilty, he goes to trial to challenge this law. He and Elcomsoft can appeal a decision of them being actually guilty on whether the law is un-constitutional or not. Isn't that how it works? You can't appeal if you plead guilty, am I right?

Law buffs help me out...

Re:law and guilt

[DiningPhilosopher]

He and his company offered the product for sale in America from a server in Chicago. There's clearly no dispute over jurisdiction. The fact that he's not a citizen and that the work was done elsewhere is irrelevant.

Re:law and guilt

[OmegaDan]

Im not sure how familiar with the US court system you are, but juries (and possibly judges?) can find someone not guilty they object to the law itself. This is called "Jury Nulification".

IMHO if they pleaded guilty, there would be no trial and the judge would skip directly to sentencing -- thats not a good thing.

Re:law and guilt

[Ozric]

What a bunch of crap. This man is NOT a US Citizen. The law does not apply to him at all. He did not do anything wrong while he was here,
also you can plead any way you want. I would not plead guilty to anything, if I did it or not. If you do, then you know nothing about the LAW.

Re:law and guilt

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you have ANY idea how the courts in the US work? Apparantly not.

Re:law and guilt

[killmenow]

Sklyarov is clearly guilty of violating the DMCA

I'm not so sure. What he did was write a program to do something legal in a country where writing it is also legal. You can't break a law that doesn't exist where you are and since the DMCA is not a law in Russia, in writing the application, he did not violate it.

A case may be made that ElcomSoft violated the DMCA by hosting the site in the US and using a US clearinghouse to process the credit card transactions (the sales transaction occurred in the US) which is a clear violation of the DMCA.

Selling the application in the US...a violation.
Writing the application in Russia...NOT a violation.

The extent to which Skylarov was involved in selling the application is the key to whether HE violated the DMCA or not.

Re:law and guilt

[Spotless Tiger]

No, he isn't guilty, any more than a visitor to a "coffee shop" in Amsterdam is guilty of committing a drugs offense under US law.

What Sklyarov does in Russia is between him and the Russian government.

Re:law and guilt

[Col. Panic]

So he should plead guilty and throw himself on the mercy of the Court? I don't think so. If you plead guilty, you get sentenced. This is an adversarial process - plead your case, man!

Re:law and guilt

[NMerriam]

Sklyarov is clearly guilty of violating the DMCA. The not guilty plea is stupid nonsense

You're confusing the casual usage of the word "guilty" with the legal use of the word.

Yes, he violated the DMCA in a literal sense, but that doesn't make him "guilty" in any way (at least until he is convicted by the proper legal process).

You can kill someone and not be "guilty" of it because it was self-defense. You can kill someone and not be "guilty" of it because you were mentally incapable of understanding the difference between right and wrong.

The issue here very much is one of guilt -- that's the only reason we take people to criminal court in this country.

Dmitri is presumably going to claim that he is not guilty of anything because by the Constitution the DMCA itself is not an enforceable law -- thus there is nothing to be guilty of.

If the DMCA is unconstitutional, legally it is as if it had never existed in the first place (except of course as a legal precedent)-- there will be no such thing as being guilty of violating it.

Re:law and guilt

[Squirrel Killer]

While I heartily agree with your second point, you're wrong on the first. Simply because he's not a US citizen doesn't absolve him of obeying the law while here. A German can't drive 210 mph down I-80 in Chicago just because he could drive 415 kph (or whatever) in Duseldorf.

-sk

Re:law and guilt

[alexjohns]

It's not quite that simple. He is guilty in some sense - he sold a program (for $99) to Americans that allowed Americans to break the law. If he'd only sold it to Russians, it's unlikely that he'd have been arrested.

The problem here is coming up with the proper analogy - I don't think there is one. Here's some bad ones:

Imagine there's a country where pornography depicting 16 year olds is legal. In the US, the legal age is 18. Would it be legal for him to sell it here? (Obviously not.)

Imagine he's from a country where Marijuana is legal. Is he guilty of a crime if he sells it to an American in the US. (Obviously.)

You sell a gun to a convicted felon. He's not allowed to own it and you know it. He then kills someone with that gun. Are you guilty of anything? (I believe so.)

Imagine all our guns had gunlocks. Imagine Dmitry sold a device (legal in Russia) that circumvented the gunlocks. Someone uses his device and subsequently commits a crime with that gun. Is Dmitry liable? (Probably.)

And that last analogy might be closest - he (his company) knowingly sold something to someone who is not allowed to own it. Like selling alcohol to a minor. You get in trouble for that.

If he'd just given his crack away, I'm not sure he'd have been prosecutable. But he sold it. Profiting from a crime. However we might feel about the constitutional validity of the DMCA, right now it's a law. Breaking it is a crime.

I can't wait for the justice department to start arresting all the Dutch tourists on drug charges.

Oh, and as a naturalized American citizen (ex-German), I'm deeply ashamed. This is not why I came to this country for. I would like to tell all non-American /.ers that we're working to rectify this, but it will take some time. Meanwhile, it would be most helpful if you could convince everyone in your country to go somewhere else for holiday. Some less repressive country. A big drop in the tourist industry would be felt and would help us achieve our goal of returning to a democracy. Thanks for your support. We now return you to your regularly scheduled trolling.

Re:law and guilt

[Ms.Taken]

Actually not all that clear, at least according to "former U.S. Attorney John Gibbons", as quoted in a Time magazine article, which explains the charge this way:

The charge filed by the government against Sklyarov is confusing enough: it is for "trafficking" software prohibited by the DMCA. This does not mean he went around selling it himself, but rather that Adobe was able to buy it through a third party--and his name was listed on that software's copyright page. Yes, that is as tenuous as it sounds. "I hope the government knows something we don't," says former U.S. Attorney John Gibbons, "because it looks like they haven't done their homework."

Re:law and guilt

[Anonymous Coward]

Sklyarov is clearly guilty of violating the DMCA. The not guilty plea is stupid nonsense.

Some of us would say that Sklyarov actually broke no law just on the basis of the fact that the DMCA is not a law.

Some of us would say that the scope of the laws that the U.S. Congress is legally permitted to make into law is limited to a number of clearly defined powers outlined in the constitution, and that if Congress "passes" some law that goes outside that scope, then that law is invalid, null, void, and not legal.

Some of us would say that there are no laws which violate any of the "congress shall pass no law"s in the bill of rights, that any proclaimed laws which violate those "congress shall pass no law"s are invalid and ficticious, and that the u.s. government does not have the ethical or legal right to enforce such "laws".

Some of us would say that the DMCA violates the bill of rights, and thus is not a law.

Some of us would say that Dimitri is guilty of no criminal act.

Re:law and guilt

[JCMay]

I disagree. He's not guilty because the law doesn't apply to him. He didn't do anything wrong in Russia, where he's from. Furthermore, he was not arrested for anything he did while in Las Vegas.

Taking your argument to its logical conclusion:

• Germans vacationing here in the Land of the Mouse should be ticketed for speeding since they were obviously going faster (on the German Autobahn) than the 70 MPH speed limit on I-95.
• Vacationing English would be ticketed for driving "on the wrong side of the road" while in England.
• Japanese people should be jailed for partaking in the consuption of whale products.

Why do these things not happen?

Re:law and guilt

[Glock27]

Sklyarov is clearly guilty of violating the DMCA. The not guilty plea is stupid nonsense.

You forgot the IANAL, which is massively evident. Sklyarov is almost certainly not guilty, since the DMCA is a US law and Sklyarov lives in a different country with no such law.

Remember when the author of the Melissa virus wasn't prosecuted? Why was that, again?

I'm not saying he should be charged or jailed or such. God forbid I support the government's actions here. Thing is, the issue isn't his guilt (as he is clearly guilty) but why the DMCA exists in the first place.

Don't proclaim Sklyarov's innocence, because he isn't. Instead, proclaim the injustice of a law that imposes draconian punishments for things that should not be illegal in the first place.

The DMCA should be fought as well...but don't dismiss Sklyarov's innocence so quickly!

It'll be interesting to see what the courts decide, once they have a chance.

BTW, IANAL either. ;-)

186,282 mi/s...not just a good idea, its the law!

Re:law and guilt

[Slak]

Point 1: Sklyarov wrote a program to defeat Adobe encryption while he was in Russia. This is undisputed. This is also perfectly legal both in Russia (where, apparently, Adobe violated the law by not providing this functionality) and in the States (as he is neither a US national nor on US soil when writing the program). In fact, writing the program is arguably legal according to the DMCA, but the distribution is not.

Point 2: His employer sold this software (for commercial gain) through a third party that apparently hosted the files on servers in Chicago. This is the *entire* basis of the Government's case. The culpability of Dmitry for the actions of his employer and a third party is certainly a matter of some debate, though I tend to think he should be held harmless. From my understanding, his employer and the third party removed the offending files and remedied the situation.

Point 3: The fact that he gave a speech about his work at a conference has nothing to do with the case, witness the actual indictment against him (I'm sure www.cryptome.org has a copy). The only bearing that it has on the case, is that he was in the country, which allowed the US's Federal BI to arrest him within its jurisdiction.

As for calls by Slashdotters for "Jury Nullification" - we (I presume to speak for many Slashdotters) would prefer to see the DMCA struck down completely or substantially rather than see it on the books. Dmitry, apparently, will pay the price for a chance for us to strike down the law. Please contribute to his defense fund and please support the EFF (www.eff.org).

Of course, there are other causes out there, too. War, genocide and disease in Africa are problems that readily come to mind.

Cheers,
Slak

Re:law and guilt

[iabervon]

Actually, it's not entirely clear that the DMCA applies. The DMCA only applies if the copy-protection is "effective", whatever that means. Possibly encrypting the document with a key which is stored in a constant string in a large binary reader is "effective", but using pkzip and then xoring each byte with 102 (IIRC) is very possibly not.

It's also not clear that Acrobat doesn't circumvent the copy-protection; after all, even after using Dimitry's program, you need a PDF reader. A PDF reader is much much more complicated and difficult to write than xor. It's even more complicated than trying all of the possible bytes to xor with. Since Adobe hasn't even been raided yet, one might guess that what Dimitry did is fine, too.

The law may be unjust, but it's not so bas as to actually apply to what seems to have happened. After all, I can't sue all US computer companies for breaking my copy-protection method of XORing every byte with 0.

Re:law and guilt

[Frums]

The problem with these analogies is that they are all wrong

Sklyarov wrote the software and the company sold it. So, imagine you are a photographer in a country that allows the sale of porn with 16 year olds. You take pictures and get paid for it. The company sells their magazines in America. You visit america for a conference on risque photography and get arrested.

-Frums

Re:law and guilt

[flatrock]

The software was sold in the United States. Read the articles.

Re:law and guilt

[technos]

If he'd just given his crack away, I'm not sure he'd have been prosecutable. But he sold it. Profiting from a crime. However we might feel about the constitutional validity of the DMCA, right now it's a law. Breaking it is a crime.

Doesn't matter. This is a criminal action against an employee of ElcomSoft. ElcomSoft paid him to do programming for the eBook processor. He did not place the program on a US server, he did not engage a US company to handle credit card orders, he did not sell the product. He just wrote code.

Think about it this way; I, in the normal course of my employment, am instructed to make a program to aid the mastering of an inhouse DVD/VCD video product. As part of the program, I write a decryption algo to reduce our pre-mastered DVD discs to plain files so they can me shuffled, re-encoded, etc. The company finds this acceptable, and in fact good enough it thinks it can get some of its partners to use the software for a fee.

What I did, as a programmer, was legal. Even if I had knowledge that the company may decide to sell it as a commercial product, the burden is on them to acquire the relevant permission. Licensing for sale the CSS IP, the MPEG encoder, etc. Their problem. Not mine. If they are called up on the carpet for IP violations, contributory infringement, DMCA violation, etc, only the company and its officers are legally responsible. Not me.

Same with ElcomSoft. They are liable if their sale of the product violated law, not DS..

Re:law and guilt

[flatrock]

The software was sold in the United States, by a distributer in the United States. That means his employer, and possibly he himself, appear to have broken the law in the United States. It isn't even a case of the web site being in Russia and someone downloading the software form there. Read the articles.

Re:law and guilt

[r_j_prahad]

The not guilty plea is stupid nonsense.

No. The "not guilty" plea is how he gets a trial in the matter. He's perfectly within his rights to do that.

A guilty plea would have been stupid.

Re:law and guilt

[gilroy]

Blockquoth the poster:

However we might feel about the constitutional validity of the DMCA, right now it's a law. Breaking it is a crime.

This is simply not true. If a law is unconstitutional, then it's not a law. It cannot be enforced. Of course, the DMCA has not (yet) been found unconstitutional, so people can be prosecuted under it. But if Sklyvarov and his attorneys hold that the DMCA is unconstitutional, then his plea of "not guilty" is perfectly valid because -- from his viewpoint -- he did not break any law.

Re:law and guilt

[Lumpy]

Therefore you are guilty of a myriad of things. If I was to canvas all laws from the entire world I should be albe to come up with a reason to imprision/punish/physically harm/or even be-head anyone I walk up to today.

your point of view is very flawed, as badly as every United states law passed in the past 10 years.

Re:law and guilt

[MrGrendel]

If he does not plead "not guilty," he cannot excercise his right to a trial and, probably more importantly in this case, appeals. If the DMCA is found to be unconstitutional on free speech grounds, then he is indeed not guilty because the law was invalid in the first place. And even if it is an enforcable law, it is still not clear that he is guilty because of jurisdictional issues (and the additional problem of holding an individual liable if the corporation owns the copyright on his software).

Re:law and guilt

[avdp]

Hmmm... No.

He is indeed innocent of what he is charge for. The actual writing of the code was done in Russia, where the US has no jurisdiction. The US recognizes that (presumably) and they're not charging him for anything of that sort. What they're charging him for is trafficing the code since apparently they used a web host and payment processing service that's based in the US. OK, well, isn't it Elmosoft and Elmosoft only that's responsible? Since when are employees responsible for the misdeeds of their employers? This is like getting sued because your employers poluted some river somewhere (sorry for the analogy, but I work for a Steel company...)

That being said, I don't even believe in the charges at all (and needless to say I don't believe in the DMCA). It looks to me that the US would have charged him even if it wasn't hosted in the US. They'd probably figured out a way to prove that the internet traffic between the host and the person downloading passed through a cable that goes through some Guam airforce base that's American sovereignty. These charges are just a loophole they found to try to enforce a law makes no sense.

Re:law and guilt

[rking]

The software was sold in the United States. Read the articles.

But NOT by Dmitri Sklyarov.

Suppose you work for a computer games company. You produce a game that is perfectly legal to produce and sell in the country that you live in. It is then sold by your employers, and by people who buy it from your employers. Some of those sales are over the internet.

Somewhere in the world it is illegal (or might be illegal, there hasn't been a test case on the new anti-violent computer games law yet) and it can be purchased from there.

In this situtation, should you, the author, be subject to imprisonment? I can understand the prosecution of whoever is selling it over the internet, though it does cause problems, but I don't understand the idea that there is a basis for prosecuting the author, who did nothing illegal in the jurisdiction in which they acted.

Re:law and guilt

[jazman_777]

Please explain how is is guilty of doing work in another country where this activity isn't illegal? When did the US's jurisdiction become international.

It really started in 1898, with the Spanish-American war, when we began acting as the world's Most Righteous, Holy, and Benevolent Policeman.

Re:law and guilt

[flatrock]

Selling the application in the US...a violation.

So why is Sklyarov not at least partially, legally responsible for this action? He works for the company. His pay derived from the creation of the software. He represented that company and that software at a conference. Just because there's some company involved doesn't absolve him of his personal responsibility to obey the law. If the law was truely broken (this is for the court to decide) in the US, then unless he had no idea it would be sold in the US (also for a court to decide), then he broke it.

I still think it's a bad law, and should be tossed out by the courts as unconstitutional, but I'm not so sure he didn't break the law.

The extent to which Skylarov was involved in selling the application is the key to whether HE violated the DMCA or not.

Oops, I thought this last line was your sig, and didn't read it until I wrote the rest of your post. I guess my point with this post is that a lot of people are screaming that the US is overstepping it's bounds, but when a foreign company is selling their products to people in the US, the US definately has the right to enforce it's laws. If you don't like it, stay out of the US, and make sure you don't have any business interests here.

Re:law and guilt

[Anonymous Coward]

Under United States Jurisdprudence you are Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

He's innocent (AND he didn't do it).

Re:law and guilt

[rking]

The software was sold in the United States, by a distributer in the United States. That means his employer, and possibly he himself, appear to have broken the law in the United States.

It means that the distributer appears to have broken a law in the United States. Are they even being indicted?

I can see how Elcomsoft's use of that distributor could in turn be seen as them acting illegally in the United States. Where do you get "possibly he himself" from though? And do you think that "possibly" should be enough to get someone into a prison cell, even on a temporary basis? It's possible that you've committed any number of crimes, I'd hope there's at least some evidence that YOU have done before you get handcuffed and marched away.

Re:law and guilt

[Anonymous Coward]

Now imagine you helped set up a US mainland server , FTPd the pics into the US, and sold a password to a fed in california.

that's more like it.

Re:law and guilt

[Anonymous Coward]

But NOT by Dmitri Sklyarov.

How do you know? Besides, if you murder someone under company orders you can't hide behind your employer. Why do you think that working as a company representative absolves him of responsibility?

Re:law and guilt

[Xerithane]

Your analogies are absolutely flawed because AEBPR's intent is not to allow people to break the law. That isn't why it was written and that wasn't why it was published.

It's a competitor to Adobe. It reads ebooks and exports PDF's. Free market, right? Nope, Adobe doesn't like competition.

His software has legal purposes too. Yes, it has illegal purposes but it's more analogous to someone manufacturing a gun in Russia and selling it in America. Oh wait! You can kill someone with this gun! We better arrest this guy because Smith&Wesson informed us that it exists and he's coming into town to give a speech on How to build hunting rifles for maximum damage.

I think it's very important for individuals to understand exactly why the DMCA is flawed and who it is there to benefit. It's not there to prohibit illegal software, it's there to prohibit competition that is unlicensed. But who's going to license their technology out to a competitor? Not Adobe, apparently.

Re:law and guilt

[Anonymous Coward]

Suppose you work for a computer games company. You produce a game that is perfectly legal to produce and sell in the country that you live in. It is then sold by your employers, and by people who buy it from your employers. Some of those sales are over the internet.

Anyone know if John Carmack has ever been to Germany? I recall reading somewhere that Quake was banned in that country.

Re:law and guilt

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure there are tons of things that I would be guilty of in Afghanistan... that's why I don't go there!

Re:law and guilt

[rking]

How do you know? Besides, if you murder someone under company orders you can't hide behind your employer.

Of course not. But if your employer goes out and murders someone then that does not make you guilty of murder unless you were actually involved in the murder. That's the point. Dmitry didn't sell the software in the USA. He doesn't need to "hide" behind his employer. The people who did distribute the software might well be guilty of a crime, that doesn't mean that Dmitry, who did not sell the software in the USA, is.

Why do you think that working as a company representative absolves him of responsibility?

It doesn't. Why do you think that working for a company makes him responsible for the acts of other people working for that company who do not answer to him?

Re:law and guilt

[Wah]

It really started in 1898, with the Spanish-American war,

Don't you mean the Cuban War for Independence? Or do ya think the English call it the "Revolutionary War" too? ;-)

Re:law and guilt

[Anonymous Coward]

"This is a criminal action against an employee of ElcomSoft. ElcomSoft paid him to do programming for the eBook processor."

I thought the government complaint said that the software was (C) Sklyarov. That wouldn't be normal in a work-for-hire situation, although I fully admit to knowing nothing about Russian copyright laws.

Re:law and guilt

[MrBogus]

The DMCA defines what they mean by "effective" copy-protection. It doesn't require strong encryption, just that the user effectively wouldn't be able to copy the content without using a device to bypass the protection.

For example, it was silly when MS tried to raise the DMCA against slashdot because they had password-protected a zip file. Turns out that asking for a password is an optional client feature of zip, not effective content protection. The same is not true for eBooks.

Re:law and guilt

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the point. Dmitry didn't sell the software in the USA...Dmitry, who did not sell the software in the USA,..

as I noted in this thread:

11. as part of the conspiracy, and to further the objects therof, the defendents committed the following overt acts in the Norther District of California:

a. Beginning on or about June 20, 2001, the defendants offered the Advanced eBook Processor for sale in San Jose, California, and elsewhere, on the elcomsoft.com website
b. On or about June 26, 2001, the defendants caused a purchaser in California to send a payment of approximately $99 to RegNow; and
c. On or about June 26, 2001, the defendants sent registration key for a copy of the AEBPR program to an individual purchaser in San Jose, California, who had made a payment of approximately $99 to RegNow,
All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 371

(Note "the defendants" are expressly listed in this count as both Dmitri and Elcomsoft.)

Re:law and guilt

[Tetsujin28]

Well said.

A plea of "not guilty" might be better understood as a plea of "Oh yeah? Prove it."

Re:law and guilt

[ryanwright]

isn't it Elmosoft and Elmosoft only that's responsible?

Elmosoft? As in "Tickle Me Elmosoft?"

Re:law and guilt

[rjh]

Please learn what law is before you go about talking about words like ``guilt''. Let the first lesson commence.

1. You can only break a law which exists.
   If there's no law against eating peanut butter and jelly sandwiches on Thursdays, then you can't be guilty of committing the crime of eating peanut butter and jelly sandwiches on Thursdays, can you?
2. Unconstitutional laws do not exist.
   This is a cute little piece of judicial fiction, but it makes sense once you think about it. If unconstitutional laws were just simply voided, then that would be an acknowledgment that at one point they possessed legitimacy. Unconstitutional laws never possess legitimacy in the eyes of the court; as soon as the court formally finds that a law is unconstitutional, that law is nullified ab initio, from the very beginning. The law was, in essence, never passed in the first place. It couldn't be passed--because Congress only has the authority to pass laws which are in accordance with the Constitution.
3. Dmitry may believe the DMCA is unconstitutional.
   God knows I do. Since unconstitutional laws don't exist--see the above point--Dmitry cannot be guilty of breaking an unconstitutional law--see the first point.

... So please don't say another word about how ``he's clearly guilty of violating the DMCA''. He's not. He's only guilty of violating the DMCA if the DMCA is Constitutional. That's a matter for the court to decide.

Did he violate the DMCA? Certainly. Congress is free to say anything they like, including free to say people shouldn't eat peanut butter and jelly sandwiches on Thursdays.

Is he guilty of violating the DMCA? That's a far different question. Am I guilty if I eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich on a Thursday? Only if there's a law which forbids it--and since there's no law, I'm not guilty of a damn thing.

Re:law and guilt

[avdp]

Oops! Well, that's what it always sounded to me :)

Re:law and guilt

[metachimp]

How to build hunting rifles for maximum damage

Silly goose, they don't build hunting rifles for maximum damage, they build cartridges for maximum damage, and if you're hunting, you can't do too much damage. That's why we don't use RPG's to hunt Elk.

Re:law and guilt

[Anonymous Coward]

caserole dick

Re:law and guilt

[Anonymous Coward]

two points i want to make. they are only partially related to the parent post, but i'm making them here because this one is better-written and more coherent than some of the others.

first, the reason that sklyarov was arrested -- as opposed to the charges being brought solely against elcomsoft -- was that apparently the splash screen of the copy of AEBPR adobe purchased with the FBI looking on had sklyarov's name as the author/copyright holder of the program, not elcomsoft. the us attorney is using that fact as justification for arresting him. apparently the splash screen was subsequently changed to say 'copyright elcomsoft' or something along those lines, but for the purposes of the indictment that was too late. (at least software authors can learn a valuable lesson from this: unless you have something very specific to gain from claiming individual authorship of a piece of code you've written, it is probably safer to put your company's name on the credit page, not your own.)

second, i'm curious about the idea that the AEBPR software falls under one of the exemptions listed in section 1201 -- either the encryption research exemption or the interoperability exemption. if i were making the case in court, i'd probably emphasize the latter, as the program allows the documents to be used on many platforms not supported by adobe's reader. of course, because there is no legal precedent concerning the effective application of these exemptions in practice, the us attorney can proceed full speed ahead. honestly, i'm not to sure they wouldn't have proceeded even if there had been some legal precedent, but that's another story.

what do you think?

Re:law and guilt

[hearingaid]

for a few weeks.

the fact that he's not a citizen goes to intent. and since these are criminal proceedings, intent is not only relevant, it's crucial to the prosecution's case. they're going to have to argue that he should have been aware that he was violating the DMCA. it's pretty obvious that he was not, in fact, aware.

the actions of his employer are also totally irrelevant. Elcomsoft isn't on trial. (And yes, before you exclaim in horror, it can be. Criminal prosecutions against corporations do happen: there's no jail term, of course, but fines can be inflicted.)

the company in the United States had a contract with Elcomsoft. now, in order for the prosecution to get him, they're not only going to have to show he ought to have known about the DMCA, but that he either knew or ought to have known about the arrangements to important the Advanced eBook Processor into the United States.

Guys, these are criminal proceedings. This isn't like the MPAA vs. 2600. The state has a much, much higher standard that it has to meet than private individuals do. All Dmitry needs is reasonable doubt.

Re:law and guilt

[hearingaid]

judges can't. they have to submit written reasons for their decisions, and "I don't like this law" is an easy route to appeal.

juries, however, have a de facto ability to nullify laws they dislike, by finding against the undesirable law. whether this ability is legal or not is the subject of much debate among legal scholars; it's pointless of course since the only way to take this power away is to make juries submit written reasons, and that'll never happen. :)

Re:law and guilt

[Temkin]

Sklyarov is clearly guilty of violating the DMCA. The not guilty plea is stupid nonsense.

Jeez... If you're a US citizen, you obviously didn't learn anything in civics. If he pleads guilty, it's game over, and off to jail after a brief sentancing hearing. In order to make any kind of defense, including a constitutional challenge defense, he must plead not guilty. All the not guilty plea means is he wants to fight it out in court.

Don't proclaim Sklyarov's innocence, because he isn't. Instead, proclaim the injustice of a law that imposes draconian punishments for things that should not be illegal in the first place.

Again, you don't seem to understand how US law works. Congress passed the DMCA, and it was signed into law by then president Clinton. The US system of checks and balances allows judicial review. If the law is found to violate some provision of the constitution, something a law isn't allowed to do, then the judiciary may declare the law null and void. An unconstitutional law is no law at all. If the DMCA is found to be unconstitutional, Sklyarov will be guilty of nothing. But in order to get that review, he needs to plead not guilty, and fight it out.

Temkin

Re:law and guilt

[AntiNorm]

The DMCA only applies if the copy-protection is "effective", whatever that means. Possibly encrypting the document with a key which is stored in a constant string in a large binary reader is "effective", but using pkzip and then xoring each byte with 102 (IIRC) is very possibly not.

It applies to CSS though...

Re:law and guilt

[dachshund]

If the US were accusing him of complicity in distributing the thing, then they might have a case. But the fact is, he's accused of creating it. It'll be fairly easy to demonstrate that he did not create it with the express intention of selling it in the USA, so there's not much there for the DOJ to accuse him of, following your argument.

Re:law and guilt

[jazman_777]

Don't you mean the Cuban War for Independence [historyofcuba.com]? Or do ya think the English call it the "Revolutionary War" too? ;-)

The whole "Cuban War for Independence" was a fiasco for....the Filipinos. We helped Cuba, all moralistic and all, throw off the Spanish yoke. The Filipinos thought, "now's our chance to throw off the yoke, too!" We suppressed their independence movement, to the tune of 200,000 dead Filipinos. Our real goal was commercial agitation for opening the markets to China--we had hit the western frontier limit, and people were afraid that without new expanding markets, the US economy would flatten and stagnate. And a key element in the China market was the availability of coaling stations for sailing ships. The Philippines were unfortunately an optimal location. So was Hawaii, whose monarchy we subverted and overthrew.

Re:law and guilt

[thogard]

But whare the the chances of Sklyarov getting a jury trial with "peers"? the court system is so aginst smart people in the jury that it won't happen. From what I can tell, about the only time technical people get on jurys is when they are the last on the list and everyone else has been refused for some reason.

Re:law and guilt

[doug363]

You make a good point. I'd like to add to this: a verdict of "not guilty" does not mean the same as "innocent". "Not guilty" means that the judge/jury did not want to pronounce the defendant. It does not mean total (or even partial) innocence.

Re:law and guilt

[doug363]

Sorry...
That should be "...pronounce the defendant guilty". There.

Re:law and guilt

[Troed]

ZIP encryption is 3 times 2^32 bits secure. It is not "optional".

There are programs that can hack am encrypted ZIP file in a few minutes, but you need at least 13 (or around that) bytes of _known_ plaintext together with those same bytes inflated/etc with the same method as used inside the .zip file.

Effectively, ZIP encryption is _more_ secure than CSS, as an example.

Re:law and guilt

[Anonymous Coward]

I certainly don't support the legal interpretation that a programmer can be held responsible for writing something for his employer in a different country, where it is legal.

As for speaking at the conference (speaking, not distributing the program), that is most obviously something that should not be censored under any circumstances.

The charges, as far as I understand them, referred to the former rather than the latter act.

Re:law and guilt

[hearingaid]

this is quite correct. the other reason why technical people don't get on juries, by and large, is that there aren't very many of us. statistically the odds are against it.

Re:law and guilt

[Xerithane]

That actually was my point. The obvious use would be big game and/or illegal activities. Poaching, ie, a bear rifle.

And some of us do use RPG's for Elk. What do you think all those hillbillies who win the lottery do with their money? :)

Re:law and guilt

[DiningPhilosopher]

I never said he was guilty, I said he won't get off by claiming that the US has no jurisdiction over the actions of people who are not citizens. You don't seem to disagree.

KTB's insights make me wanna

[Anonymous Coward]

+* j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f *+
* \ \ \ *
j / \ \ j
a \ \ a
c \ \ c
k / \ \ \/,,..---v--. k
o ,,\.--"""\/ \ o
f \ > f
f / f
* /vvv\..---""'`-' *
j ,,. j
a / \ \hhh/ a
c c
k k
o \ \ o
f \ \/ f
f \ f
* \ *
j j
a a
c c
k k
o o
f f
f f
* *
+* j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f *+
portant Stuff: * Please try to keep posts on topic. * Try to reply to other people comments instead of starting new threads. * Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said. * Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about. * Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page) Problems regarding accounts or comment posting should be sent to CowboyNeal. Linux - Das System fuer schlaue Maedchen ;) -- banshee All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the Poster. The Rest © 1997-2001 OSDN.

no reg link

[cha0sadddddddd]

http://archive.nytimes.com/2001/08/31/technology/3 1HACK.html

Re:no reg link

[cha0sadddddddd]

sorry no space
http://archive.nytimes.com/2001/08/31/technology /3 1HACK.html
that one works

Fenris Wolf?

[sabinm]

This sounds to me like a bit of corporate canibalism. A company that chases after hackers getting arrested for hacking. Not that I denounce Skylarov, but after reading that statement from Elmcosoft, I can't pity them too much.

A Response from Russia

[kjj]

The Russian Foreign Ministry is warning programmers not to go to the US or they could be arrested. Check out the story here.

Re:A Response from Russia

[NullPointer]

There is also a story at the NYTimes Russians Deem Arrest Insult to Their Industry that has some interviews with other Russian programmers and their take on the whole mess.

Re:A Response from Russia

[VP]

Here is the original from the Russian ministry of Foreign Affairs. Translation to come later.

Re:A Response from Russia

[neowintermute]

this whole thing just illustrates how america is totally run by large corporations. capitalism and democracy are incompatible.

Re:A Response from Russia

[Anonymous Coward]

he he good propaganda for bolcheviks

He he he...

[Anonymous Coward]

I like the DMCA!

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202399 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 226076 229533 190450

129707 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 163224 9481 52238

225975 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 223252 90869 48426

229123 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 109520 194337 124294

205391 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 61068 5965 9122

212379 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 204616 84473 45630

117607 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 62083 124580 75418

39155 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 79872 175249 112886

8703 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 47740 147197 8274

23371 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 6008 175785 199342

19799 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 141876 206293 52490

3746 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 141424 201281 91878

101935 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 96812 36909 185026

69563 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 169320 21337 216734

119751 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 174628 168965 218682

42259 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 23456 96753 187990

110687 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 84444 9181 61298

45675 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 69592 205769 77646

233143 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 125523 214901 100458

122755 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 121232 185889 164806

27023 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 147660 115597 29474

82971 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 72328 225785 89022

132199 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 13316 29733 159130

189107 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 2304 17041 150518

103935 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 36412 228029 198546

81163 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 52280 150057 15213

187031 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 55668 169045 29642

12579 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 173296 143873 117990

125167 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 160364 2541 121858

176315 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 229992 27289 55646

197703 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 171940 128837 2874

186451 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 26528 209265 168022

79199 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 214236 213853 150770

114987 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 187864 105161 8718

187255 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 39572 225909 75946

51203 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 163920 184417 3974

153231 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 143308 228365 57762

49819 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 121735 207993 1150

14567 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 1284 94501 4058

1395 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 193792 187409 72246

162943 I enjoy spamming Slashdot using Tcl! 195260 77757 99154

Re:He he he...

[Anonymous Coward]

Tcl? Wimp. Real programmers use cat > myprog; chmod 755 myprog

Return to the Dark Ages

[Anonymous Coward]

Censorship is on the rise. Is it coming to America?

Dozens of other Americans, Europeans, Australians and Canadians have been jailed for exercising their right to free speech.

Read more about it here

Vanguard News Network

Funny fable, old concept

[Uttles]

This fable really is just an illustration of the age-old witch hunt. I don't agree with the DMCA but I don't think it would be enforced in such a way. While we're talking about witch hunts, we have something much worse than what's described in this article around already: rape. Look at how those cases are investigated, it's terrible. Anyway, nice story

Re:Funny fable, old concept

[Anonymous Coward]

didn't you check the link at the end?

Oops, sorry that link is incorrect. Sorry :-)

[Anonymous Coward]

* g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x *
g g
o / \ \ / \ o
a| | \ | | a
t| `. | | : t
s` | | \| | s
e \ | / / \\\ -- \\ : e
x \ \/ --~~ ~--| \ | x
* \ \-~ ~-\ | *
g \ \ .--------.__\| | g
o \ \_// ((> \ | o
a \ . C ) _ ((> | / a
t /\ | C )/ \ (> |/ t
s / /\| C) | (> / \ s
e | ( C__)\__/ // / / \ e
x | \ | \\__// (/ | x
* | \ \) `---- --' | *
g | \ \ / / | g
o | / | | \ | o
a | | / \ \ | a
t | / / | | \ |t
s | / / \/\/ | |s
e | / / | | | |e
x | | | | | |x
* g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x *

Bullies

[Maskirovka]

"The only way to beat bullies is to stand up to them."

I like this Tom Clany quote better:

There are two ways you can deal with bullies
You can shock them; or
you can kill them.

Needless to say there are at least 50000 bullies (ie, industry lobiests) in washington alone, so killing is out. Any great ideas on how to collectively shock them? The sheer logistics are mind bogling, but it would be fun to try 8)

Maskirovka

I don't care that my spelling stinks.

Re:Bullies

[Nick Number]

Needless to say there are at least 50000 bullies (ie, industry lobiests) in washington alone, so killing is out. Any great ideas on how to collectively shock them? The sheer logistics are mind bogling, but it would be fun to try 8)

Get them to hotsync their Palm Pilots all at once.

Re:Bullies

[tbone1]

Needless to say there are at least 50000 bullies (ie, industry lobiests) in washington alone, so killing is out.

Well, if we keep them in DC, they'll probably get shot anyway.

Re:Bullies

[Dimensio]

Needless to say there are at least 50000 bullies (ie, industry lobiests) in washington alone, so killing is out.

Actually, if you could find a way to kill, say, just 100 of them and make it clear to everyone why they were killed then the remaining lobbyists might be shocked sufficiently.

Re:Bullies

[kenthorvath]

Okay, so you get a REALLY REALLY big capacitor bank and then... um never mind.

Re:Bullies

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod this guy up +1 Funny
Mod this guy up for his sig!

Re:Bullies

[mimbleton]

You racist pig !

PS.

Seriously, if you were to mention that in politically correct environment, you would be severely punished for complete lack of sensitivity etc ..

Re:Bullies

[Anonymous Coward]

there is nothing racist about the fact that DC has one of the highest murder rates in the US, some years, they are #1.

Re:Bullies

[Mija Cat]

Technically, this is incorrect.

Had he said that they'd be shot by a person of specific ethnicity, then he'd be racist.

As to D.C.'s insanely high crime rate, it's more a function of economics than race, so it would be more accurate to call him an economist...

Meow.

FLOPPY DICK NEEDS WORK - CALL XXX-XXXX

[Anonymous Coward]

Can I reformat my dick in my floppy drive? I'd like to try.

WARNING: GOAT SEX LINK!

[Anonymous Coward]

Specifically, the link that points to this comment is a link to the goat sex ascii.

* g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x *
g g
o / \ \ / \ o
a| | \ | | a
t| `. | | : t
s` | | \| | s
e \ | / / \\\ -- \\ : e
x \ \/ --~~ ~--| \ | x
* \ \-~ ~-\ | *
g \ \ .--------.__\| | g
o \ \_// ((> \ | o
a \ . C ) _ ((> | / a
t /\ | C )/ \ (> |/ t
s / /\| C) | (> / \ s
e | ( C__)\__/ // / / \ e
x | \ | \\__// (/ | x
* | \ \) `---- --' | *
g | \ \ / / | g
o | / | | \ | o
a | | / \ \ | a
t | / / | | \ |t
s | / / \/\/ | |s
e | / / | | | |e
x | | | | | |x
* g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x *

circumvention

[Anonymous Coward]

Skylarov isn't guilty of anything. The DMCA itself is a circumvention device as it prevents us from creating our legally allowed backups of data for items we purchase. Skylarov, if anything, simply provided us a way to over-ride the (should be) illegal circumvention device that is the DMCA.

ATTENTION MODERATORS

[Anonymous Coward]

Kiss The Blade, also known as KTB, Lover's Arrival, The, and many other gay names, is a KNOWN TROLL and should be modded down as such. He should NOT be MODDED UP, he should be MODDED DOWN. He is trolling you, don't you see? He is also a member of the ultra-gay Wiccan THC (Troll High Council) and should have his IP banned immediately. Thank you for your time.

Re:ATTENTION MODERATORS

[Anomymous Coward]

heh, even the meta-trolls get modded up these days ... sad, very very sad.

The "law" is not always important

[fcd]

An unjust law does not demand being followed simply because it is the law. Our country has a history of unjust laws. Take for example the Jim Crow laws in the south. You state that you agree with the people who put MLK in jail. The people who turned dogs and hoses on protestors, civil protestors, not violent ones, simply because it is the law?

It is our duty as Americans to protest and commit acts of civil disobiedience when we believe a law is unjust. We must, of course, expect to be punished for our actions, but we must never fall blindly into the belief that we should obey and accept people punsihed under unjust laws, to do so is to sign away our freedoms one by one, because as many of you know waiting and writing to Congress to get something done, is not the most effective thing you can do.

Someone who is being punished under an unjust law is being unjustly punished, and you should not support punishing him, if you do not believe the law is just, to do so is hipocrasy.

Re:The "law" is not always important

[StrawberryFrog]

It is our duty as Americans to protest and commit acts of civil disobiedience when we believe a law is unjust.

You make it sound like it was just an American thing :) It is our right as free human beings to do this. As a South African, I can think of other instances of unjust laws and resistance to them.

Re:The "law" is not always important

[meatplow]

It is our duty as Americans to protest and commit acts of civil disobiedience when we believe a law is unjust. We must, of course, expect to be punished for our actions, but we must never fall blindly into the belief that we should obey and accept people punsihed under unjust laws, to do so is to sign away our freedoms one by one, because as many of you know waiting and writing to Congress to get something done, is not the most effective thing you can do.

You couldn't be more correct.

remember the following... (qw may be off a bit)

I disagree with what you say, but will fight to the death for your ability to say it.

remember

"He who would sacrifice a little bit of liberty
for a little bit of safety deserves neither." - Benjamin Franklin.

Re:The "law" is not always important

[error0x100]

This is not exactly on-topic, but relates to what you're saying .. in psychology, development of moral reasoning, we learnt that there are basically six stages of moral reasoning that people go through as they grow up. The majority of people stop developing at about age 16 at stage 4 ("conventional morality"), which is "preserve the social order" - this stage basically amounts to "rules are rules, we must follow them". And so we see such posts on slashdot :)

A few people (usually people who study further after school) progress to stages 5 and 6 ("post-conventional morality"), which involve actually thinking about the rights of individuals, and "an orientation toward universal principles of justice".

Its interesting to see this sort of discussion on topics like the Sklyarov case in terms of that, as you can usually categorize which stage someone is in by their posts :) (The earlier stages are typically reasoning that children use, e.g. "don't get caught").

Re:The "law" is not always important

[Anonymous Coward]

Thomas Jefferson: "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so."

All this ascii art is making me want to

[Anonymous Coward]

+* j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f *+
* \ \ \ *
j / \ \ j
a \ \ a
c \ \ c
k / \ \ \/,,..---v--. k
o ,,\.--"""\/ \ o
f \ > f
f / f
* /vvv\..---""'`-' *
j ,,. j
a / \ \hhh/ a
c c
k k
o \ \ o
f \ \/ f
f \ f
* \ *
j j
a a
c c
k k
o o
f f
f f
* *
+* j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f *+

aoisfhoasfhiuasfiugsafihudfsahuifsoihhuasdghgdsh lk hklsdghjgdashjImportant Stuff:
Please try to keep posts on topic.
Try to reply to other people comments instead of starting new threads.
Read other peoplmessages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said.
Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about.
Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)
Problems regarding accounts or comment posting should be
e's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said.
Your comment violated CmdrTaco's anus. Comment aborted

Biased Slashdot Coverage..

[Bowie J. Poag]

I know this will probably earn me a -1 Flamebait moderation, but i've been thinking about something lately, regarding Slashdot.

What strikes me as particularly odd, is the fact that Slashdot chooses to embrace the cause of Mr. Sklyarov, despite the fact that he knowingly and willfully comitted an act of copyright infringement. This is a crime. While its not on par with grand theft or murder, it is a crime nonetheless. Not only did he commit a crime, but he also didn't find much harm in holding a lecture to inform and encourage others how to do the same. No matter how small a dent in some company's bottom line it made, it's still illegal..You can call it whatever you want, and make up elaborate dances to justify it, but its still a crime, enforced by law.. Laws that you and I have citizens helped create to protect the rights of our property.

Now, suppose the company being victimized was VA Linux Systems, OSDN, BSI, or perhaps more poigniantly, Slashdot. Slashdot holds numerous copyrights, each of which i'm sure they'de defend rigorously in court. If someone came along and decided to "pull a Dmitry" on Rob and Jeff, they would likely throw a fit, and let loose the dogs of war on whoever did it. They wouldn't embrace the offender as some sort of Robin Hood'ish cult hero.

Thats a double-standard i'm not quite comfortable with. Many would argue that the sheer numbers of readers here at Slashdot almost demand unbiased reporting, but, its their page, they can do what they want...And thats fine....But Slashdot's maintainers should realize that they're seting a dangerous precedent when you hold up one ethical ideal but practice quite another.

In other words, if you really want to see something funny, try violating one or more of Slashdot's copyrights. I'll bet you dollars to donuts Slashdot wont take up your cause, and run almost daily series of reports on how to defend and support you.

Cheers,

Re:Biased Slashdot Coverage..

[Anonymous Coward]

That depends on how you define crime pal. You define crime as something illegal (like doing 56 in a 55). I define it as something wrong (like companies using pirated software). Think on that.

Re:Biased Slashdot Coverage..

[furiousgeorge]

>>despite the fact that he knowingly and >>willfully comitted an act of copyright
>>infringement.

Don't be obtuse.

First - the 'crime' occured in another country.

Second - he didn't commit copyright infringement. He developed a tool. If i go down to the library, take a book and photocopy it, does that mean Xerox (and it's engineers) are guilty of 'copyright' infringement. No it doesn't. For the same reason a gun manufacturer isn't guilty of murder if i shoot somebody in the head. For the same reason if i take a hammer and break into your house, Sears isn't guilty of break and enter. If i burn a copy of a friends CD, HP (the manufacturer of my burner) isn't guilty of copyright infringent.

Don't confuse a tool and the use of a tool. Why should this case be treated differently because it deals with bits instead of physical objects. It's EXACTLY the same as the Xerox example.

And i won't even go into the agument about how the DMCA tramples other established rights.

Re:Biased Slashdot Coverage..

[daoine]

despite the fact that he knowingly and willfully comitted an act of copyright infringement. This is a crime.

Not necessarily the case. If it is the case that

-in Russia, it is legal to copy software and its content for backup purposes
-in Russia, it is legal to sell software to create said backups
-Elcomsoft made no sales of circumventing software to US companies

then in fact, it's pretty hard to enforce a US law, because it doesn't take place in the US. If this had happened to a US programmer in a US company, the case would be much cleaner...because it WOULD be illegal. In fact, it's surprising that they aren't choosing a local to hold up as an example. It would be much easier to convict an American who broke the law in the US.

Granted, Slashdot creates cult heros, but I think this is the wrong example to pick on them for. In this case, it's not a matter of someone not getting their free-as-in-beer stuff. It's a much more complicated scheme of making an example of someone who didn't necessarily break the law.

Re:Biased Slashdot Coverage..

[Anonymous Coward]

"If i go down to the library, take a book and photocopy it, does that mean Xerox (and it's engineers) are guilty of 'copyright' infringement. No it doesn't. "

If you take a CD, compress a song into mp3 form, and send it to someone through napster...

see where I'm going with this?

Re:Biased Slashdot Coverage..

[radish]

Surely this is a troll?? Well just in case, here's the "Skylarov for Dummies" explanation:

The guy has NOT been charged with infringing copyright (or if he has that's not what's being complained about) - it's the charge of "creating a circumvention device". This is prosecuting him for creating a tool which MIGHT be used to infringe copyright, but has other legitimate uses as well. If someone uses a hammer to break into my home, I say prosecute the guy breaking in, not the guy who designed the hammer. I bet you use copiers from time to time - what if Xerox were forced to stop making copiers because someone MIGHT use them to copy the pages of a copyright protected book?

Madness.

Re:Biased Slashdot Coverage..

[srvivn21]

Why should this case be treated differently because it deals with bits instead of physical objects. It's EXACTLY the same as the Xerox example.

For the exact same reason that the actual copying and distribution of digital material should be treated differently than that of physical material. They are very distinct beasts. It's not exactly the same as the Xerox example. With a Xerox, I can't make a perfectly bound soft cover (much less a hard cover) book. With e-books, copying the material is both trivial, and EXACT.

Don't get me wrong. I am all against the current practices of hassling the makers of software that enable the unauthorized copying of proprietary information (commonly known as "pirating"). If it's main purpose is "pirating", it's bad. If it allows "pirating" as a side effect, then those who use it to pirate are bad.

I just don't feel comfortable with people claiming that digital music should be "sold" with a different business model (because it is different than physical media) while stating that digital tools are the same as physical tools.

Re:Biased Slashdot Coverage..

[Anonymous Coward]

You ought to read the report then you wouldn't have to speculate anymore
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/can/press/assets/applets /2001_08_28_sklyarov_ind.pdf you see exactly what he was arrested for

- in America it is illegal to sell circumvention software due to the DMCA
- Elcomsoft sold the circumvention software from a computer located *in the US* (extremely stupid thing to do)
- Adobe purchased the circumvention software from the website that was on the system *in the US*
- Skylarov is listed as the *copyright* holder in the opening splash screen
- Adobe see's splash screen contacts government and says Skylarov's in the US, he's been violating the DMCA, here's your proof, now do your sworn duty

If Elcomsoft would have kept their server out of the US, nothing would have happened since it *would* have been outside of the US. I personally think this is the fault of Adobe more than anyone else, since they called up and forced the government's hand.

Re:Biased Slashdot Coverage..

[fluch]

> First - the 'crime' occured in another country.

DMCA is a USA law and can't be broken in Russia. And _if_ in Russia ther would exist a similar law he could only be charged in Russia, not in the USA...

Re:Biased Slashdot Coverage..

[crankbear]

Why should this case be treated differently because it deals with bits instead of physical objects. It's EXACTLY the same as the Xerox example.

I disagree here, as well, though for a different reason: The case of the Xerox machine, the hammer, and all other tools mentioned here are all things that have an intended use. Straying outside the bounds of intended use may result in straying outside the law. I don't see an intended use that falls within the law for copying e-books.

With e-books, copying the material is both trivial, and EXACT.

And I disagree here. An mp3 encoded at a bitrate of say 56 is far from an exact copy, but if distributed, is still a clear infringement of copyright. The Xerox example of copying an entire book does mirror copying e-books, as it's still word-for-word the intellectual property of the author (or whomever owns the rights). Xerox, though, for reasons stated above, can hardly be held accountable.

Re:Biased Slashdot Coverage..

[Daffy Duck]

Are the words contained in the duplicate not EXACTLY the same as the words in the original? Or do Xerox machines scramble some percentage of the letters they see?

I'm pretty sure the target of copyright protection is the words, not the perfectly bound soft cover.

Re:Biased Slashdot Coverage..

[Anonymous Coward]

First - the 'crime' occured in another country.

The 'crime' was the importing & marketing in the US of an illegal (under the DMCA) tool. If you use a remote-controlled (controlled from, say, Colombia) airplane to try to smuggle a bunch of coke into the US, and my next trip to Miami (with nothing on you) you can expect the feds would want to talk to you. But I digress; read the indictment; everything from the client to the server was in the US.

Second - he didn't commit copyright infringement. He developed a tool. If i go down to the library, take a book and photocopy it, does that mean Xerox (and it's engineers) are guilty of 'copyright' infringement. No it doesn't. For the same reason a gun manufacturer isn't guilty of murder if i shoot somebody in the head. For the same reason if i take a hammer and break into your house, Sears isn't guilty of break and enter. If i burn a copy of a friends CD, HP (the manufacturer of my burner) isn't guilty of copyright infringent.

Don't confuse a tool and the use of a tool. Why should this case be treated differently because it deals with bits instead of physical objects. It's EXACTLY the same as the Xerox example.

It's NOT the same - the distribution of software that effectively controlls copyright access is illegal under US law. The others aren't.

General note to anyone reading:
If your understanding of the charges is that some guy was arrested for a program he made while in Russia to help blind people, for the love of god; read the indictment before you post. We're not under any obligation to support every single geek or always support anything anti-DMCA.

Re:Biased Slashdot Coverage..

[Cock Knocker]

First - the 'crime' occured in another country.

All 5 counts in the indictment, which I trust you read, are all trafficing charges. Should I be able to traffic a brick of hash from Amsterdam just because its legal there? kaPOW!

Re:Biased Slashdot Coverage..

[Moridineas]

The crime occurred in the US, as software sold within the US...ergo...US crime

Second, made a tool specifically designed to circumvent copyright. The specific goal of a gun is not to kill people. The specific goal of a copy machine is not to break copyright. His product can ONLY be used to break copyright.

Unless of course, you could give some examples of adobe ebooks that exist free of any copyright and and totally free, that you could use Sklyarov's software on.

Re:Biased Slashdot Coverage..

[donutello]

A photocopier can be used for several legitimate purposes that are not illegal. Ditto with a gun or hammer.

(I might be wrong here - and correct me if I am - because I haven't really bothered reading much about the case)

He sold a program to specifically break the copy-protection mechanism on ebooks. The fact that he wrote the program in another country is not relevant because he (or his company) sold the program in the US.

Re:Biased Slashdot Coverage..

[dasunt]

Ironic thought.

Xerox copies are imperfect, and making copies of copies will result in a degraded copy. The way to do it is to convert it to a digital form, then make copies. An Adobe PDF file is very capable of this.

Re:Biased Slashdot Coverage..

[Garc]

First - the 'crime' occured in another country.

Flase, the crime, which was Distribution of a device that allows the circumvention of copyright protection technology, was committed in the USA by an agent of elmsoft. The company (don't remember their name) was located on the west coast and collect funds and sold the software in USA for Elmsoft.

IANAL, so this is all IMHO

garc

Re:Biased Slashdot Coverage..

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. If pirated copies of the closed source sourceforge extensions got out on the net i bet they wouldn't be defending the pirates.

Re:Biased Slashdot Coverage..

[Karellen]

Yes, and a program that breaks the copy protection on an e-book can be used for several legitimate purposes that are not illegal also.

This includes, but is not limited to, making personal, fair-use copies for purposes of backup or space-shifting.
Another is to simply prove that such a program can be written, and that the copy protection is not perfect.

DMCA coming to Europe

[Anonymous Coward]

It may (and should) outrage all Europeans, but within a year, Dmitry's actions are going to be made illegal in Europe too. Yes, that's right - they've put together a DMCA in Europe called the European Union Copyright Directive. It bans circumventing encryption in the same way. In a year's time, all governments in Europe are obliged to enact it as law.

We can still stop this! Check out here and if you're in Britain, write a letter to your MP. You can and should make a difference.

For the record . . .

[SanLouBlues]

Is it Dmitri or Dmitry? I see it one way in the elcomsoft statement, and the other in the nytimes.

Re:For the record . . .

[Purple_Walrus]

Either Dmitri, Dmitry or Dmitriy is the correct way to spell it. While this name is spelled only one way in Russian, there are many ways to spell it in English... Probably the closest pronounciation would be "Dmitriy."

Re:For the record . . .

[nolesrule]

Either spelling would be correct. It's not like his original language uses the English alphabet.

Re:For the record . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

OH MY GOD.

1. Russians use the Cyrillic alphabet. English-speaking people use the Roman alphabet. IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW YOU SPELL IT. HE DOES NOT SPELL HIS NAME WITH OUR ALPHABET. HE SPELLS HIS NAME WITH A BUNCH OF LINES AND SQUIGGLES INDECIPHERABLE TO MOST OF US. "Dmitri" or "Dmitry" are spellings invented by English-speaking people looking for a way to transliterate a non-English name.

2. If you were used to seeing Dmitri Sklyarov, and you suddenly saw it as Dmitry Sklyarov, would you suddenly become confused, and wonder if they were talking about another person?

3. WHY WHY WHY is the spelling of his name in any way important to you, so much that you needed to post offtopic to find out?

Holy shit, I did not know people could be that dumb.

Here's what I think

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.conhugeco.org/junk/arguing.jpg

And now...

[Anonymous Coward]

For something different!

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217684 random... 91061

201258 random... 111235

49232 random... 27489

49606 random... 6863

196620 random... 129997

61154 random... 106011

216328 random... 76025

86142 random... 172519

148676 random... 933

95770 random... 143027

180864 random... 83281

156278 random... 23295

232252 random... 3133

29329 random... 143307

219064 random... 96041

97518 random... 71575

220532 random... 219669

124426 random... 33443

140400 random... 8257

98534 random... 190191

53548 random... 46445

232962 random... 75003

145000 random... 102617

141534 random... 57991

80228 random... 220485

15802 random... 57299

175776 random... 115633

131029 random... 104607

221404 random... 165341

104178 random... 197035

Ok, so they're not random, but pseudo-random. Sue me. Or lick me. Whichever works for you.

Oh yeah, fuck Slashdot. Their 2 minute limit hinders my enjoyment of the site.

I've got to start trolling more and crapflooding less, ya know...

Replies are MUCH more satisfying than long scrolls...

Christ, 2 minutes is a long time...

Re:And now...

[Anonymous Coward]

keep up the good work

Re:And now...

[Anonymous Coward]

All these random numbers make me want to

+* j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f *+
* \ |\ \ *
j | / \ \ j
a | | \ \ a
c | | \ \ __ c
k / \ \ \/__|__,,..---v--. k
o | |__,,\.--"""\/ | \ o
f | | \ _> f
f| | _ _ _ _ | / f
*| | /_v_v_v_\..---""'`-' *
j| | __,,.| | | | | j
a| / \ \_h_h_h_/ a
c | | | c
k | | | k
o \ |\ | o
f \ | \___/ f
f \ | f
* \ | *
j | | j
a | | a
c | | c
k | | k
o | | o
f | | f
f | | f
* | | *
+* j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f *+


Please try to keep posts on topic.
Try to reply to other people comments instead of starting new threads.
Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said.
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Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page) keep posts on topic.
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Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about.
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Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said.
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Re:And now...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey Taco, ban this motherfucking troll's IP, wouldja?

Jesus Motherfucking Christ, that is some annoying shit.

What is this world coming to?

[Anonymous Coward]

Now we're actually punishing criminals. This is terrible. How can we as a society tolerate this? Sure, there are thinly veiled attempts to dismiss this case becuase the offending software was distributed to the US from outside the US. And they almost sound like the protesters have convinced themselves they're in the right. Next thing you know they'll be arresting people who traffic drugs in the US that are CLEARLY grown outside the US, and therefore immune from our silly laws.

We need to FREE DMITRI and all our other criminals, as they are victims of an unjust system that treats people differently just because they committed a crime.

No Justice? NO PEACE!
No Justice? NO PEACE!
No Justice? NO PEACE!
No Justice? NO PEACE!
No Justice? NO PEACE!
No Justice? NO PEACE!
No Justice? NO PEACE!
No Justice? NO PEACE!
No Justice? NO PEACE!
No Justice? NO PEACE!
No Justice? NO PEACE!
No Justice? NO PEACE!
No Justice? NO PEACE!
No Justice? NO PEACE!
No Justice? NO PEACE!
No Justice? NO PEACE!
etc. etc.

Shouldn't that be "law VS guilt"?

[_Mustang]

Don't proclaim Sklyarov's innocence, because he isn't. Instead, proclaim the injustice of a law that imposes draconian punishments for things that should not be illegal in the first place.

If all that was needed to institute change was people "proclaiming" against immoral unethical laws then you folks in the US of A would still be a colony of the Brits. The fact that actions speak louder than words and that action is often the only way to effect change *was* the whole point of the Boston Tea party I believe..

As I see it, the only unfortunate aspect is that it's a non-US citizen involved; an American in his place would have been a much better symbol of how slippery the slope has become.

Urge to kill.....rising....

[Sarcasmooo!]

How is this legal? The action of monitoring people and their 'transgressions' may be done by advertisers and websites all the time, but at the very least they've been required to post a privacy policy, or an opt-out arrangement. Required might be an assumption, maybe they just know better than to cross that line of complete deception and risk legal action.

(This is offtopic, I know. I got to the ranger site from the salon article linked by the 'cute fable')

Re:Urge to kill.....rising....

[timmy the large]

That is just plainscary.

Who starts these companies. Someone has to program this stuff, its not just some faceless corporation. There is some guy out there thinking up better ways to patrol the internet. This guy probably thinks he's a good guy.

(s core: -999, OFFTOPIC, not goat related)

[Anonymous Coward]

"ok, so I'm lying. At least it't not goat related."

Freakin' holier-than-thou meta-troll!

Just to bring this thread on topic:

GOATapalooza! Goats! Goats! Goats!

All models are real goats, not like that other link

100% free goat pr0n, no annoying popup windows

You've got to admire his boss...

[brulman]

for showing up in court yesterday to stand by his employee. He certainly didn't have to come all the way from Russia, and risked getting arrested himself to do so. It impressed me a great deal, and hopefully it will have a similar effect on the court.

Re:You've got to admire his boss...

[Anonymous Coward]

I sure no Adobe executive would do the same for any employee of theirs that ran afoul of some troglodyte Russian law.

Re:You've got to admire his boss...

[Anonymous Coward]

Are Adobe eBooks illegal in Russia because they cannot be backed up?

Re:You've got to admire his boss...

[fishbowl]

>He certainly didn't have to come
>all the way from Russia, and risked getting
>arrested himself to do so.

I think it would be reasonable to demand that he
is also arrested, regardless of where you stand on the DMCA. Equal protection of the law is not served by selectively enforcing it.

Re:You've got to admire his boss...

[Maserati]

That's a damned good point. Someone from the business side is much closer to trafficking.

On a personal level for Sklyarov, this gets him (another) possibility for appeal.

Re:You've got to admire his boss...

[Brian Stretch]

Amen. The Register put it very well.

Beowolf

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, can you make a beowolf cluster of these guys?

Re:Beowolf

[anichan]

A beowolf cluster of lawers? Wouldn't that yeild the Micro$oft legal team?

Re:Beowolf

[Anonymous Coward]

Good point. But if we sicked them on the Micro$ucks team, they would probably destroy the entire legal system, thus allowing anarchy to rule. Take that DMCA!

not enough thinking

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd say you have more thinking to do.

Violating Slashdot's copyright and making a legal program to promote a legal right in a country that is not bound by the idiocy of the DMCA to enforce the legal creation of legal backup copies of a product are very different things.

Now, if Slashdot were selling compilation CD's with all the Slashdot archives on them, included a proprietary reader that prevents you from making copies or backups of the compilation and prevented you from using the CD on any other machine or in two places at once (even though you may only be accessing one of the isntances at a time) and someone offered a way to get around that so you could make a backup copy of it (since you are licensing the right to read the archives on a convenient disk, you shouldn't have to pay for those rights all over again if the disk is corroded, melted, scratched, etc) and Slashdot sued or attacked that person... then you'd have something.

Exclusive! Adobe CEO pic!

[Anonymous Coward]

Candid photo of Adobe CEO. This pretty much sums up the Adobe side of the story.

Not guilty plea *was* the right thing to do

[M_Talon]

To those who were criticizing the not-guilty plea and saying he is guilty, this needs to be said. Had he went ahead and pleaded guilty, there would be no legal examination of the DMCA. He would have been fined and sentenced to prison, end of story. The United States NEEDS this examination of the DMCA, if for no other reason than to bring the flaws in the law to light in an official manner. It will be up to the courts to make the decision, and in the mean time, the issues surrounding the DMCA will hopefully become more public knowledge.

I'm really saddened that Russia had to issue its advisory, but again maybe that will be a wake up call to everyone that there is something very very wrong with the way the DMCA is being enforced. One would hope that we can settle the issue internally before it becomes more of an international issue than it already is. The US preaches so much about "human rights" and begs for other countries to "do the right thing" even though their laws are written differently. It's time we practice what we preach.

Re:Not guilty plea *was* the right thing to do

[Anonymous Coward]

Yo, mod parent up.

Re:Not guilty plea *was* the right thing to do

[Col. Panic]

Well, OK but do you think Dmitri gives a rat's ass about whether the DMCA is overturned as a result of his case? He is [correctly] pleading not guilty to save his ass, if possible. Ass ass ass - there I said it again :P

Re:Not guilty plea *was* the right thing to do

[psychonaut]

To those who were criticizing the not-guilty plea and saying he is guilty, this needs to be said. Had he went ahead and pleaded guilty, there would be no legal examination of the DMCA.

Unfortunately, a plea of not guilty will not lead to a legal examination of the DMCA either, at least not directly. The court's duty is to enforce the existing law, not to ratify or amend it. As I understand American law, the judge is not at liberty to simply say, "Well, this law is clearly unfair. Therefore we'll just have to release Mr. Skylarov." His only duty is to determine whether or not Skylarov violated the DMCA, and issue an appropriate sentence.

Re:Not guilty plea *was* the right thing to do

[rjh]

The court's duty is to enforce the existing law, not to ratify or amend it. As I understand American law, the judge is not at liberty to simply say, "Well, this law is clearly unfair. Therefore we'll just have to release Mr. Skylarov."

Are you high?!

That was, honestly, my first gut response to your message. You're operating under a critical, severe misunderstanding of how American jurisprudence works.

1. The Constitution is the supreme law of the land.
   No ifs, ands or buts here. The Constitution is this nation's highest law; so high, in fact, that it automatically trumps any other law which comes into conflict with it.
2. No unconstitutional laws exist.
3. 
   This is actually a little judicial fiction that lawyers tell themselves, because unconstitutional laws are passed on a regular basis. However, the instant that a judge finds a law to be in conflict with the Constitution--i.e., there's a formal finding by a court that a law is inconsistent with the nation's highest law--then the law in question is not merely voided. If it were voided, that would mean at one point it was enforceable. Laws which are held to be unconstitutional are retroactively erased; they are invalid ab initio, from the very beginning. Is the law unconstitutional? If so, then that law doesn't exist and, more to the point, never existed in the eyes of the court.
4. The judge must uphold the law.
   A judge is responsible for seeing to it that the laws are properly applied--including the Constitution, the nation's highest law. A judge who will not judge laws for Constitutional correctness is a judge who is utterly incompetent for the bench, and who needs to be impeached.

... If the DMCA violates any of Dmitry's rights under the Constitution--and note that he has a hell of a lot of rights, even though he's a foreigner--then that's it; game over; prosecution loses.

Re:Not guilty plea *was* the right thing to do

[psychonaut]

[T]he instant that a judge finds a law to be in conflict with the Constitution--i.e., there's a formal finding by a court that a law is inconsistent with the nation's highest law--then the law in question is not merely voided. If it were voided, that would mean at one point it was enforceable. Laws which are held to be unconstitutional are retroactively erased; they are invalid ab initio, from the very beginning. Is the law unconstitutional? If so, then that law doesn't exist and, more to the point, never existed in the eyes of the court.

I find it hard to believe that it's that simple. Do you have a cite? How do the courts deal with issues of jurisdiction? Can a state court find a federal law unconstitutional? If so, is the law erased everywhere, or just in that state?

I know that under Canadian law (which, like American law, is based on British law), when a provincial court finds a law unconstitutional, it is not stricken from the Criminal Code, but is merely made unenforceable in that province. Such is the case with the federal law against sodomy. An Ontario court ruled it unconstitutional, but it's still on the books, and you can still be prosecuted for it in the other provinces and territories. (While your lawyer will argue that Ontario has set a precedent, the judge is under no obligation to follow it.)

I think you'll need to back up your claim that the DMCA will simply vanish if Skylarov is acquitted on the basis of unconstitutionality. Things are rarely that simple in the legal system.

Re:Not guilty plea *was* the right thing to do

[rjh]

I find it hard to believe that it's that simple

It is. But by all means, look up the principles of Constitutional law in an (American) law library of your choosing.

Do you have a cite?

Only in treeware form. If you have access to Black's, I'd suggest starting your search there. I'll look around for Web-based cites, if you like.

How do the courts deal with issues of jurisdiction?

The exact same way they deal with every other issue of jurisdiction.

Can a state court find a federal law unconstitutional?

No. State courts can find state law to be in violation of the state constitution, and the Federal courts can find state or Federal law to be in violation of the Federal Constitution.

Yes, each and every state in the Union has its own Constitution, just as the nation has a Constitution.

is the law erased everywhere, or just in that state?

Depends on the jurisdiction of the court in question. Let's take Iowa as an example (for the sole reason that I know the legal districts). There are two regions of Federal jurisdiction in Iowa, the Northern and the Southern Districts. If a judge in the Northern District declares a law to be unconstitutional, then the law is void ab initio everywhere in the Northern District of Iowa--but it's in full force in the Southern District of Iowa, as well as the rest of the country.

Let's say the government appeals that verdict to the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals, which operates primarily out of St. Louis, Missouri or St. Paul, Minneapolis (they keep offices in both places). The Eighth Circuit has a jurisdiction that covers most of the central United States. Iowa, Minnesota, the Dakotas, Missouri, Arkansas, etc. Let's say the Eighth Circuit affirms the lower court and agrees that the law is unconstitutional.

Suddenly the law is nullified, ab initio, throughout the entire scope of the Eighth Circuit's jurisdiction.

If the government wants to appeal it from there, it goes to the Supreme Court (and there's no guarantee they'll hear the case; the Supreme Court is permitted to refuse to hear appeals, mostly due to the enormous number of requests they get). If the Supreme Court finds that the law is unconstitutional, then the law is nullified ab initio throughout the entire United States, plus its associated territories like Guam, the Virgin Islands, Puerto Rico, etc.

which, like American law, is based on British law

I beg your pardon. American law is not based upon British law. We incorporated the whole body of English common law into American common law after we won our independence, but our legal traditions are not British in origin. In Louisiana, much of the law owes more to the Napoleonic Code than to English courts.

There are strong (very strong!) similarities between American and British courts, but I wouldn't say American law is ``based upon'' British law.

British law, for instance, has no concept--no concept at all--of rights which belong to free people which no government can lawfully or morally deprive. American law is rife with them; the entire Bill of Rights, for instance.

An Ontario court ruled it unconstitutional, but it's still on the books, and you can still be prosecuted for it in the other provinces and territories.

But you can't be prosecuted for it in Ontario, where it's been found null ab initio. :)

Jurisdictional issues. Remember them.

Re:Not guilty plea *was* the right thing to do

[psychonaut]

American law is not based upon British law. We incorporated the whole body of English common law into American common law after we won our independence, but our legal traditions are not British in origin. In Louisiana, much of the law owes more to the Napoleonic Code than to English courts.

But Louisiana is not the federal government. You could just as well argue that Canadian law is based on civil law and not common law because of Quebec. Civil law is not practiced in Canada anywhere outside Quebec.

Historically speaking, US law is basically British, as opposed to the civil (Roman) law prevalent in most of Western Europe. I am not saying that the legal systems of America and Britain are identical, but rather that there is a strong ancestral relation between the two.

Re:Not guilty plea *was* the right thing to do

[rjh]

Historically speaking, US law is basically British, as opposed to the civil (Roman) law prevalent in most of Western Europe. I am not saying that the legal systems of America and Britain are identical, but rather that there is a strong ancestral relation between the two.

Which is true, as far as it goes. It is not true to say that the courts are based upon a British model. For instance,

• Review of Law
  In England, courts do not review law to determine whether the laws themselves are legal. England lacks a Constitution, which means Parliament can pass essentially anything which pleases it.
• Evidentiary Procedure
  In American courts, the judge's only role in evidentiary procedure is to determine whether or not something is admissible as evidence--whether that be material evidence, or the evidence as given by an eyewitness. In British courts, the judge receives considerable leeway to tell the jury ``you may trust this if you like, but I certainly wouldn't''.
• Courts of Law versus Courts of Equity
  In America, every court of law is a court of equity as well. I'm uncertain as to whether they've been unified in British courts, but at the time America separated from Great Britain, British courts were separated along those two lines.
• Status of the Judiciary
  In America, the judiciary is explicitly granted co-equal status with the Legislature and the Executive. President Bush makes the news a fair bit and the Speaker of the House slightly less so, but most people don't understand that Chief Justice Rehnquist is co-equal to them in the grand scheme of things.

... I could go on, but you get the idea. While there's an awful lot of shared history there, the United States Judiciary is not based upon an English model--it is its own separate entity. It has adopted much from the practices of English courts, but that doesn't make it ``based upon'' English courts any more than a Chevy is ``based upon'' a BMW just by virtue of having four wheels, an engine and a steering column. :)

Re:Not guilty plea *was* the right thing to do

[psychonaut]

While there's an awful lot of shared history there, the United States Judiciary is not based upon an English model--it is its own separate entity.

Well, the Americans didn't exactly pull their legal system out of a hat. While it has a number of innovations, its creators could not simply ignore two hundred years of colonial legal precedent.

Some of the contrasts you cite are details and not fundamental differences. For instance, the difference between the judges' roles in the two systems is negligible compared to that with the judge's role under Soviet-style law, where he is an inquisitor charged with gathering evidence. IIRC even in civil law, the judge has inquisitional powers which he may choose to invoke if he feels the prosecution or defence has failed to gather sufficient evidence. For that matter, some legal systems do not even use the adversarial system.

Also keep in mind that the rules governing which side has the burden of proof are very similar under both common and American law, but not under civil or Soviet law. This is not a historical accident, nor is it a necessity of construction as with your automobile example. Almost every car ever made has had four wheels, an engine, and a steering column.

Re:Not guilty plea *was* the right thing to do

[rjh]

For instance, the difference between the judges' roles in the two systems is negligible compared to that with the judge's role under Soviet-style law, where he is an inquisitor charged with gathering evidence. IIRC even in civil law, the judge has inquisitional powers which he may choose to invoke if he feels the prosecution or defence has failed to gather sufficient evidence

You mean, like the United States courts do?

Check out John Sirica, a United States Federal judge who had the misfortune of hearing the Watergate case. When the government prosecutors went easy on witnesses (in order to protect Nixon), Sirica started interrogating witnesses himself in order to get to the bottom of things.

The White House complained mightily about ``Maximum John's'' method of handling his courtroom, but the Supreme Court backed Sirica up every step of the way.

Just because Federal judges rarely invoke their right to conduct interrogations doesn't mean they lack that power.

Re:Not guilty plea *was* the right thing to do

[psychonaut]

Just because Federal judges rarely invoke their right to conduct interrogations doesn't mean they lack that power.

I wasn't talking about interrogations; I was talking about the inquisitional judiciary system. Yes, American judges have the right to question witnesses who are already on the witness stand. So do Canadian judges, and (I would assume) British judges. It is not their prerogative, however, to conduct an independent investigation to gather physical evidence, subpoena witnesses, etc. as it is under Finnish and Soviet law.

Again, you are arguing minor details here, but my point of contention has always been fundamental differences. If you were to draw up a taxonomy of legal systems, the American legal system is going to be placed in or near the "common law" category because that it whence it derives most of its procedures, particularly those relating to the gathering and presentation of evidence in a trial. Also in the common law area will be found the British system, since common law arguably began there. Many of its developments, such as were effected by the Magna Carta, are still in evidence in American jurisprudence.

Re:Not guilty plea *was* the right thing to do

[rjh]

It is not their prerogative, however, to conduct an independent investigation to gather physical evidence, subpoena witnesses, etc. as it is under Finnish and Soviet law.

Please read up on Judge John Sirica's actions during Watergate. You might be extremely surprised by what you learn.

but my point of contention has always been fundamental differences

Sure, as long as you define ``fundamental differences'' narrowly enough. Every time you make an assertion about American courts, I show a historical situation which shows you're wrong, and you go about decrying it as ``insignificant''. Well, of course they're insignificant, as long as you're the one who gets to dictate what's significant. I'm not inclined to let you, though. :)

If you were to draw up a taxonomy of legal systems, the American legal system is going to be placed in or near the "common law" category because that it whence it derives most of its procedures, particularly those relating to the gathering and presentation of evidence in a trial

Oh, why stop there? After all, both Finnish and American courts inherit from the Code of Hammurabi and Justinian's Code, so there are no significant differences between them, right? After all, they both inherit from the same places.

Or, alternately, they're related because Gustavus Adolphus had a significant role in forming both. Gustavus' dream of a Corpus Evangelicorum may not have come true in his life, but he certainly had a tremendous effect in how Scandiavian and German governments were arranged and organized. Many of Gustavus Adolphus' developments were borrowed by Americans and English later, so doesn't that mean they're all related?

Etc.

You get the idea. Whether or not the American legal system is ``based on'' the British legal system is true only if you take an idiosyncratic view of what it means to be ``based on''. The American legal system stands on its own, with influence from other systems, most notably the British--but that doesn't make American courts ``based on'' British courts.

Think about Linux for a moment. Is Linux ``based on'' SunOS? Is it ``based on'' SVR4? Is it ``based on'' FreeBSD? No. It borrows from all of the above plus some, but it stands on its own, independent and co-equal to those from whom it borrowed.

Re:Not guilty plea *was* the right thing to do

[psychonaut]

Look, buddy. Your own friggin' government disagrees with you:

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ us.html

Scroll down to the section on government.

Re:Not guilty plea *was* the right thing to do

[rjh]

Mmmhmm. Real good idea, asking an intelligence agency for an informed opinion on the judicial branch. The CIA is not what I would consider an authority on what the United States legal system is.

The Federal judge I had dinner with two nights ago, on the other hand, is an authority.

The US legal system is not ``based on'' the English system any more than the US Constitution is ``based on'' the English constitution. Yes, it's true that virtually everything in the Bill of Rights was recognized as a right of a free Englishman; yes, it's true that the Senate/House split is reminiscent of the House of Lords/House of Commons split; but it's not true that the US Constitution is based on the English constitution because England doesn't have a constitution in the first place.

Similarity does not mean ``based on''. The simple Constitutional fact alone is enough to make the US legal system stand independent.

Linux is similar to SysV and BSD. Does that mean it's ``based on'' either?

Re:Not guilty plea *was* the right thing to do

[psychonaut]

Mmmhmm. Real good idea, asking an intelligence agency for an informed opinion on the judicial branch. The CIA is not what I would consider an authority on what the United States legal system is.

Why, yes, of course. How silly of me -- everyone knows that intelligence agencies pull their facts out of thin air.

The Federal judge I had dinner with two nights ago, on the other hand, is an authority.

Well, too bad you didn't ask him about our little discussion, or you might actually have learned something. Luckily, this federal judge has already written extensively on the topic.

Similarity does not mean ``based on''.

So your argument is, what? That the Americans developed their legal system, which is remarkably similar on a high level to the British system of common law, completely independently?

Linux is similar to SysV and BSD. Does that mean it's ``based on'' either?

That's a terrible analogy and you know it. SysV and BSD are variants of Unix, which was invented decades ago (and has been in a continuous process of revision ever since). Linux, meaning the operating system and not the mere kernel, is a relatively modern invention and is based on Unix. Despite his trollish appearance, Richard Stallman did not live in a hole in the ground, sheltered from the rest of the universe, and magically create a near-complete operating system that just happened to resemble Unix. Sure, there are some parts of Linux which are not wholly Unix-based, such as Torvalds's kernel (which is instead derived basically from MINIX). But the vast majority of the basic OS was written by looking at existing Unices and copying their functionality, adding new features or removing others as need required. If you don't believe me, go read the literature on the FSF web page. They are quite upfront in admitting that the GNU programs comprising what is known as the Linux OS are based on their Unix counterparts.

The DMCA makes me want to

[Anonymous Coward]

The DMCA makes me want to

+* j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f *+
* \ |\ \ *
j | / \ \ j
a | | \ \ a
c | | \ \ __ c
k / \ \ \/__|__,,..---v--. k
o | |__,,\.--"""\/ | \ o
f | | \ _> f
f| | _ _ _ _ | / f
*| | /_v_v_v_\..---""'`-' *
j| | __,,.| | | | | j
a| / \ \_h_h_h_/ a
c | | | c
k | | | k
o \ |\ | o
f \ | \___/ f
f \ | f
* \ | *
j | | j
a | | a
c | | c
k | | k
o | | o
f | | f
f | | f
* | | *
+* j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f *+


Important Stuff:
Please try to keep posts on topic.
Try to reply to other people comments instead of starting new threads.
Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said.
Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about.
Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)
Problems regarding accounts or comment posting should be sent to CowboyNeal.

karma whore....

[metalhed77]

you should be shot and killed, you greedy karma whore,

Does anybody know the law here?

[Ami Ganguli]

Ok, the above comment is an obvious troll, but I'm curious about how American law actually works. Do they really think they can enforce their own laws globally? This strikes me as really bizarre. I know the French did something similar with Yahoo, but presumably Yahoo at least has an office or something in France (I don't really know, I'm just guessing).

Any lawyers who know better?

Re:Does anybody know the law here?

[FatalException]

We can't enforce our laws globaly, but if you step foot on US soil we will.

Re:Does anybody know the law here?

[Ami Ganguli]

Does this apply to all laws? Could I technically be charged in the U.S. if I assaulted somebody in Russia?

I know this doesn't happen, but is that just because they don't bother, or because they can't?

Re:Does anybody know the law here?

[Gonarat]

If you are a big enough target, it doesn't matter where you are. Look at Manuel Noriega -- he was arrested for Drug Trafficing while he was physically in Panama and brought back to Miami by the U.S. Military to face charges. He is currently in a U.S. jail. I'm not commenting on Noriega's crimes, just that Panamanian Sovereignty did not matter.

Re:Does anybody know the law here?

[Garc]

Could I technically be charged in the U.S. if I assaulted somebody in Russia?

No, but you could be charged in Russia, which is the point. An agent of elmsoft (company based on the west coast of USA) sold and distributed the product. So, back to your analogy, if you contract someone to commit a murder, you are subject to the anti-murder laws in Russia. Should it be any other way?

IANAL, so this is all IMHO.

garc

Re:Does anybody know the law here?

[hearingaid]

it's a valid question.

one of the few countries that's worse than the Americans is Turkey. under Turkish law, if you kill a Turkish citizen anywhere in the world, you can be prosecuted - should you happen to visit Turkey. yes, this has really happened. double jeopardy? who cares...

sorry, but nope

[Seumas]

Sorry, but if it was a non-american involved, he would still be ignored by the public and the media. Any little attention he would manage to receive would be with the accusation that he is a rampant cracker and criminal spawned by bullying through his highschool years and society's general lack of morality, yadda yadda yadda.

American's don't care about things unless it affects their religion, the children or their cable television prices.

Re:sorry, but nope

[jallen02]

You left out the price of gas

Excursions are expensive to fill to the hilt with gas.

Jeremy

Re:sorry, but nope

[flatrock]

You left out Guns.

Re:sorry, but nope

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm assuming that you were bullyed as a kid, and now see the entire world from the eyes of a victim. It must be difficult convincing yourself that everyone, including an entire country is against you. You must be very ignorant in order to do this.

Very sad

Huh ?

[Anonymous Coward]

> one more link - the Russian Foreign Ministry has warned its programmers not to travel to the United States.

Why would anyone want to go there ?
To see a bunch of fat and stupid people ?
.

Re:Huh ?

[Dr. Awktagon]

As soon as I finish this hamburger, I'm going to kick your ass for saying that.

Mmm, Big Mac(tm).

It's quite simple why he is guilty

[Illserve]

He came here and spoke about his program, hence he trafficked his information here, which is illegal under the DMCA.

Dmitry violated our law on our soil and has been locked up for it. I hate the DMCA as much as any of us, but he is guilty, and proclaiming him as innocent merely makes one look uninformed.

Re:It's quite simple why he is guilty

[Zwack]

He came here and spoke about his program, hence he trafficked his information here, which is illegal under the DMCA.

I don't believe that talking about weaknesses in software is illegal. It certainly isn't trafficking.

The trafficking in this case is the sale in the US of software that he first wrote. The fact that he was outside the US is allegedly irrelevant as he/Elcomsoft used a US based server/service to sell the software.

Claiming he is guilty is surely against US judicial protocol as he is "Presumed Innocent until Proven Guilty".

Proclaiming him one way or the other merely makes one look uninformed.

Zwack

Re:It's quite simple why he is guilty

[singularity]

Funy you should mention *he* looks uninformed.

Pleading not guilty means that he gets his day in court when he (and his representation) can argue that the DMCA is unconstitutional.

*That* is the way that laws can be struck down.

Re:It's quite simple why he is guilty

[Squirrel Killer]

...proclaiming him as innocent merely makes one look uninformed.

No, it makes one look like they understand that under our legal system, he is innocent until proven guilty. Saying that he's unquestionably guilty, especially when one has only read mainstream news reports, makes one look like an ignorant moron.

-sk

Re:It's quite simple why he is guilty

[Illserve]

I misspoke, shouldn't have used the word guilty. The intent of my message was to demonstrate what laws he was correctly charged with violating here in the US, and not just in Russia, as the parent message implied.

No he is not guilty(yet). Yes I look uninformed.

Re:It's quite simple why he is guilty

[Sarcasmooo!]

I wonder if trade laws come into play at all. I know a little about trade restrictions, but I don't even know if laws exist that would require US borders to allow trade; as in software from Russia that is about as illegal as a paper clip (having legal and illegal uses).

It might be interesting to note that I can buy a wife from Russia, but not a piece of software.

Re:It's quite simple why he is guilty

[knightbg]

Ok, so clearly it's better for Slyarov if he's found not guilty. But in the grand scheme, I really wonder which is better. If he's found not guilty, might that not go to show that the DMCA works as it should, as he was found not guilty because he did nothing wrong? Whereas if he's found guilty, we can yell and scream about the injustice inherent in the DMCA.

Re:It's quite simple why he is guilty

[supruzr]

Claiming he is guilty is surely against US judicial protocol as he is "Presumed Innocent until Proven Guilty".

Raise your hand if you are representing Sklyarov, or are a juror in the case, or are the judge in this case. I thought not. US judicial protocol applies to the judicial system only. It's not a code to live by. His innocence is a nonissue here. He was indicted under a very unjust law, but he DID violate it.

Proclaiming him one way or the other merely makes one look uninformed.

One who blinds themself to the importance of this case is not only uninformed, but effectively reinforcing the position of the DMCA. It was a law passed with ignorance, that relies on ignorance to stand.

Sklyarov DID violate the DMCA. It doesn't need to be said 65 thousand times to be believed. I'm not even the first person in this thread who understands that. This case is not an opportunity to acquit an innocent man. This case is an opportunity to challenge the constitutionality of the law he was arrested under. If you can't see that, don't pretend your transparent support of Sklyarov's innocence is helping in any way.

Perfect opportunity for the Russian govt..

[Da VinMan]

Now they can stop the brain drain with some simple FUD.

Comrade: "Oh, you want to leave the country to work in the US? Well, I have a gift for you."

Programmer: "What's the Vaseline for?"

Comrade: "It will make your stay in prison easier to bear."

That would probably be the end of that.

Actually...

[Anonymous Coward]

...it's äìèòðè.

Professional Repsonsibilies and DMCA Awareness

[guygee]

The sixth principle of the IEEE/ACM Software Engineering Code of Ethics and Professional Practice states:

6 PROFESSION - Software engineers shall advance the integrity and reputation of the profession consistent with the public interest.

One implication of this principle is that we all need to stay informed on events related to the intergrity and reputation of our profession in order to defend ourselves against unjustified external attacks. Clearly, the Sklyarov case represents an attack of unprecedented ferocity on the profession of software engineering. Iam currently teaching 2 sections of a graduate-level software engineering course, and in an informal poll last week Iwas shocked to learn that less than five out of sixty students had heard of the DMCA or Dmitri Sklyarov. I emphasized that it is our professional duty to keep informed and to speak out against the persecution of software engineers. Besides linking to information on this and related cases on my course webpages, Iam considering some type of assignment that will encourage students to respond in some way to the threat represented by the DMCA. Letter writing campaign? Protest actions? I am writing slashdot to solicit recommendations.

Re:Professional Repsonsibilies and DMCA Awareness

[wowbagger]

While I am of the personal belief that any sane individual opposes the DMCA and the trial of Dmitri, I also am opposed to a teacher telling his students they must protest an action. What if some student in your class feels that the DMCA is a good thing, and that Dmitri should "... be torn into little bisty pieces and buried alive!"?

Offer writing letters to the CongressDrone either for or against as an option, or allow them to present a short speech about their thoughts on the case.

A butterfly flaps it's wings in Russia...

[Stealth Dave]

For the sake of argument, let's postulate that there is a town in New Jersey, let's call it "Podunk" (a purely ficticious town; if there really is a Podunk, NJ, then make up another name), where crossing the street against the light is not against the law. If I jay-walk in Podunk, NJ and then go to visit New York, should I be arrested in New York for jay-walking in Podunk?

That's essentially what's happening here. Dimitri jay-walked in Russia and now they're trying to prosecute him here. Yes, it's more complicated than that, but at the same time it's really not once you start looking past the legal smoke-screen. Adobe picked what they thought would be an easy target to show that the DMCA means business, and in my opinion have gotten off pretty easy with their "Oops, you're right, Dimitri shouldn't have been arrested," statement. Regardless of whether or not the DMCA is Constitutional, the fact is that the act being prosecuted was performed well outside the jurisdiction of the United States, and we have no business prosecuting this case at all. But then again, that's the whole problem here: business. But that water's been tread a thousand times over here on /.

Okay, I've spent enough time feeding the trolls. Say goodnight, Gracy.

- Stealth Dave

Re:A butterfly flaps it's wings in Russia...

[FatalException]

No, but if it was illegal in NY to tell people how to Jaywalk and you still did...

THAT is what is happening here.

JAIL DEMITRY WHAT HE DID WAS ILLEGAL.

(Granted it is insane that telling someone how to jaywalk could be illegal.)

Re:A butterfly flaps it's wings in Russia...

[gilroy]

Blockquoth the poster:

WHAT HE DID WAS ILLEGAL.

What he did was legal, because the DMCA is unconstitutional. Of course it'll take a trial to establish this, but his claim is perfectly valid.

Re:A butterfly flaps it's wings in Russia...

[dlb]

No, what you meant to say is "What he did should be legal if the DMCA is ruled to be unconstitutional"

The DMCA isn't unconstitutional just because someone posted a webpage quoting slashdot. Like you said, it'll take a trial to establish this.

So, for the time being, the DMCA is constitutional, therefore what he did is still illegal.

Re:A butterfly flaps it's wings in Russia...

[AsylumWraith]

First Amendment buddy. According to the constitution, I can say whatever the hell I want. With the exception of slander, but I'm not entirely sure how that works, and it doesn't apply here anyway.

He developed the software outside the United States, and the 1st Amendment covers him speaking about it.

He's not guilty, the DMCA is stupid. What's the problem?

Re:A butterfly flaps it's wings in Russia...

[rking]

No, what you meant to say is "What he did should be legal if the DMCA is ruled to be unconstitutional"

The DMCA isn't unconstitutional just because someone posted a webpage quoting slashdot. Like you said, it'll take a trial to establish this.

So, for the time being, the DMCA is constitutional, therefore what he did is still illegal.

NO. The DMCA either is constitutional or it is not. As yet the courts have not determined whether it is or not. What they determine is whether it has ever been constitutional. It's not a case of it being constitutional until they decide otherwise. If the courts find that it is unconstitutional what they will be saying is that it has never been a valid law. If the courts find that it is constitutional then they will be saying that it has always been a valid law.

The DMCA is not "constitutional for the time being", it either is constitutional or is not. We can differ in opinions as to which it is and ultimately the courts will determine which of us is right.

Re:A butterfly flaps it's wings in Russia...

[cpt kangarooski]

There's actually more to it than that. Slander, as you correctly point out, as well as it's brother libel are not protected under the aegis of the First Amendment.

Additionally, if your speech can be considered a form of conduct, it too may be unprotected. E.g., you can say "The US government ought to be overthrown," and that's speech. But something more specific such as, "Let's start by killing that guy over there, right now," is a little too close for comfort, particularly if people follow through with it. So we don't really want people who arrange a murder, incite a riot, etc. to be able to get off for not having in fact performed any action when they so clearly brought that action about intentionally and specifically. The courts aren't really stupid, you know.

Additionally, copyrights are directly opposed to the First Amendment. This is skirted around by claiming that 1) the First Amendment did not amend Congress' power to establish copyright if they choose to do so; 2) that as a function of copyright, people have consented through the government to a small infringement of their free speech in return for the benefits of having the material produced (for which the copyright is assured to go away after a time anyway) but that this is generally pretty narrow. In short, the courts have not found there to be, for their purposes, an actual tension.

Lastly there are issues revolving around self-accepted limitations. E.g., if you reveal a trade secret you were given in confidence, if you breech a contract requiring you not to say something, etc. the First Amendment doesn't work so well.

So you can see where this is going... the government can claim that his speech induced action, and is therefore unprotected, and that the action was to induce copyright infringements and those are also (generally) unprotected.

Hopefully the courts will put the smackdown on the prosecution, and the law.

Re:A butterfly flaps it's wings in Russia...

[dachshund]

Er, if you wrote a book on how to Jaywalk... And somebody else published it in New York. Are you responsible or are they?

Ignore the hideous first amendment violations.

Re:A butterfly flaps it's wings in Russia...

[Anonymous Coward]

You are a fucking asshole. I read your posts. I looked through the library of shit you post here.

Fuck off you little shit, get cancer, die.

About Skylarov, if he was a citizen and eligible to be prosecuted, which he isn't, he would be protected by fair use:
(read the following you quippy little fuck and realize you are on the communist side here)

For those of you with "The Law is the Law" attitude, I believe this law undermines our fundamental laws here which are regarded as inalienable. Thomas Jefferson and others should clear this up.

Intro:

I feel the need with all the horrible rights violations going recently to highlight Thomas Jefferson's views on copyright. In the writing to ensue, there will be much opinion and conjecture surrounded by a more valued and respected sets of opinions by none other than Thomas Jefferson. Without a doubt, Thomas Jefferson has already covered most of what gets rehashed, particularly when it comes to fair use and the DMCA.

I feel it is important to this case, especially from the American prospective, to point out that one of the most ingenious, prolific and outspoken forefathers of the USA, where the DMCA and other vile laws live, believe firmly that the bill of rights should have included and explicit reference to freedom from burdensome and unfair copyrights and legislation thereof.

Thomas Jefferson was concerned about you and me. The people that read periodicals. He was concerned with everyone as a singular entity. You yourself may not know what's best for you if you belong to something bigger. Our [United States] laws are supposed to protect the little people.

While I'm not suggesting an armed standoff against federal agents necessary in this case, something must be done. We are railroading an expatriate to whom our laws do not bind. Furthermore, our own forefathers, particularly Jefferson, BELIEVE me he is YOUR friend (not the big monopolies like Energy/Petroleum Companies, Microsoft, etc.)

I'm going to excerpt his beliefs below. Realize that even 200 years ago, the pitfalls of burdensome copyright and the legislation that ensues would erode our freedoms.

...

Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), in his correspondence with James Madison (1751-1836) was initially hostile to the provision for copyright and patent law in the United States Constitution. On Dec. 20, 1787, Jefferson wrote to Madison from France concerning the recently-drafted Constitution:

"I do not like... the omission of a bill of rights providing clearly and without the aid of sophisms for freedom of religion, freedom of the press, protection against standing armies, restriction against monopolies, the eternal and unremitting force of the habeas corpus laws, and trials by jury in all matters of fact triable by the laws of the land..."

Note, here IMHO, Thomas Jefferson wants to, along with our other inalienable rights, establish a freedom from Monopoly. These rights, not excluding freedom from monopoly, were to him as core as the rest of our bill of rights. He repeated this view in his letter to Madison dated July 31, 1788:

"I sincerely rejoice at the acceptance of our new constitution by nine states. It is a good canvas, on which some strokes only want re-touching. What these are, I think are sufficiently manifested by the general voice from North to South, which calls for a bill of rights. It seems pretty generally understood that this should go to juries, habeas corpus, standing armies, printing, religion and monopolies. I conceive there may be difficulty in finding general modification of these suited to the habits of all the states. But if such cannot be found then it is better to establish trials by jury, the right of Habeas corpus, freedom of the press and freedom of religion in all cases, and to abolish standing armies in time of peace, and monopolies, in all cases, than not to do it in any... The saying there shall be no monopolies lessens the incitements to ingenuity, which is spurred on by the hope of a monopoly for a limited time, as of 14 years; but the benefit even of limited monopolies is too doubtful to be opposed to that of their general suppression."

Madison, in a letter dated October 17, 1788, responded,

"With regard to monopolies they are justly classed among the greatest nuisances in government. But is it clear that as encouragements to literary works and ingenious discoveries, they are not too valuable to be wholly renounced? Would it not suffice to reserve in all cases a right to the public to abolish the privilege at a price to be specified in the grant of it? Is there not also infinitely less danger of this abuse in our governments than in most others? Monopolies are sacrifices of the many to the few. Where the power is in the few it is natural for them to sacrifice the many to their own partialities and corruptions. Where the power, as with us, is in the many not in the few, the danger can not be very great that the few will be thus favored. It is much more to be dreaded that the few will be unnecessarily sacrificed to the many.

I hold the recent copyright extension as an example of what Madison thought there was little danger of. There it was said, even by Madison, the proponent of the said directives, that there would likely be no "a sacrifice of the many to the "partialities and corruptions" of a powerful few."

I firmly believe the DMCA is both a corruption and a partiality. Anyone with Macrovision stock will try and convince you otherwise.

Jefferson probably saw that there is some purpose in having intellectual property be protected in some fashion or more likely, IMHO, probably decided that he would rather be a part of creating the ground rules for this countries operations and decided to cut bait at this point. He subsequently said to Madison in a letter on August 28, 1789:

"I like the declaration of rights as far as it goes, but I should have been for going further. For instance, the following alterations and additions would have pleased me... Article 9. Monopolies may be allowed to persons for their own productions in literature, and their own inventions in the arts, for a term not exceeding ___ years, but for no longer term, and for no other purpose."

The blank was to be filled in at some future date, obviously. The law is written with the sense that this right would be the right of the people to protect themselves against intellectual fraudulence by companies, e.g., the theft of the 'little man's' ideas. In addition to which, there is always the stance that the people of the fledgling USA would be safeguarded in the Bill of Rights against unduly long copyrights.

Jefferson's preference for the term of copyright was submitted to Madison a few days afterward, in a letter of September 6, 1789. The proposed term was that of 19 years, based on actuarial calculations:

"The question Whether one generation of men has a right to bind another seems never to have been started on this [i.e., the European side -- Jefferson was writing from France] or our [American] side of the water... that no such obligation can be so transmitted I think very capable of proof. -- I set out on this ground, which I suppose to be self evident, that the earth belongs in usufruct to the living; that the dead have neither powers nor rights over it... A generation coming in and going out entire... would have a right on the first year of their self-dominion to contract a debt for 33 years, in the 10th for 24, in the 20th for 14, in the 30th for 4, whereas generations, changing daily by daily deaths and births, have one constant term, beginning at the date of their contract, and ending when a majority of those of full age at that date shall be dead. The length of that term may be estimated from the tables of mortality. Take, for instance, the tables of M. de Buffon... [according to which] half of those of 21 years [of age] and upwards living at any one instant of time will be dead in 18 years 8 months, or say 19 years as the nearest integral number. Then 19 years is the term beyond which neither the representatives of a nation, nor even the whole nation itself assembled, can validly extend a debt... This principle that the earth belongs to the living, and not to the dead, is of very extensive application... Turn this subject in your mind, my dear Sir... Your station in the councils of our country gives you an opportunity for producing it to public consideration... Establish the principle... in the new law to be passed for protecting copyrights and new inventions, by securing the exclusive right for 19 instead of 14 years."

A Jeffersonian computation using life tables from 1992 gives a Jeffersonian copyright term of 30-35 years. (Vital Statistics of the United States 1992, Volume II--Mortality, Part A, Public Health Service, Hyattsville, 1996, Section 6, Table 6-1.) Note, however, that at least one edition of Jefferson's works has a much abridged version of this letter, in which the 19-year computation and the proposal for the term of copyright do not occur.

One of Jefferson's most famous statements on patent law was in his often-quoted letter of August 13, 1813 to Isaac McPherson, in which he wrote that, since there is no natural right to property in land, how much less is there a natural right to a property in ideas. I think Jefferson's words apply equally well to copyrights as to patents; to "expression" as well as to "ideas": "he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me."

A random set of impressions of these laws with which I agree:
"The scary thing about the DMCA is that it affects everyone, but only a subset of the country realizes it exists, of which a subset understands what it means, of which a subset understands why its so wrong. " quote, kstumpf (ken@stumpf.com).

"Is there a "voice" amongst this subset that has any power to inflict any change here? Kind of spooky. It makes you wonder where things are headed." quote, kstumpf (ken@stumpf.com).

As someone pointed out in a discussion, be sure to realize that copyright is referred to at this point as monopoly in Jefferson's letters.

Its fairly clear that Jefferson uses Monopoly in reference to copyright, which is what it is, you can monopolize on your intellectual property for a set period of time. He was willing to give IP of the day 19 years, but he was very much verbal about fair use, and that public fair use was of the utmost importance.

Even cursory inspection of Jefferson's views shows his distrust of allowing monopolies run rampant.

Even Madison has said:
"With regard to monopolies they are justly classed among the greatest nuisances in government."

They both realized that in order for Monopolies of any sort to be protected by the government, that undue amounts of arbitration would be necessary.

Jefferson also affords a Monopoly to the Individual, not a corporate entity:
"Monopolies may be allowed to persons for their own productions in literature, and their own inventions in the arts, for a term not exceeding ___ years, but for no longer term, and for no other purpose."

Surely he isn't suggesting that one person could create a monopoly on, lets say, corn. He was referring to copyright. He certainly isn't suggesting that corn could only be sold by one person for 19 years.

Another thing, imagine if the copyrights were in fact awarded to the people who invented them, not the companies who subsidized them. It would be interesting to see a world where companies like DuPont and Merck (and every other chemical and drug exploitation companies, because that's what they are, the money is in the treatments, not the cure) are made to treat their patent holding scientists with the utmost respect and regard, even more so than the greedy shareholders, because if they left for another company, so leaves their patents!

The most important of all the Jefferson arguments is this: If IP is so unique, so wonderful and so great, why does it need protection? I don't believe I had quoted this particular argument above, I will work to find it, but the statement is true. If something is obvious, then it really isn't IP. Would you like Bob Metcalfe, the Linux is a piece of crap Windows 2000 rules moron who founded 3COM to hold the patent on 'ethernet'?
Link: http://iwsun4.infoworld.com/articles/op/xml/99/06/ 21/990621opmetcalfe.xml

Don't you think its nice that other companies compete with 3COM for the ethernet space, such as Intel, CISCO, et al? Doesn't the standard referred to as "ethernet" get better and better because these companies compete for your business in the same segment?

"He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density at any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation."
Thomas Jefferson, in Writings of Thomas Jefferson, vol. 6, H.A. Washington, Ed.,1854, pp. 180-181. Link: http://www.lib.virginia.edu/copyright/

The message in this passage is clear: an idea is not matter but energy; it cannot be owned, and it isn't diminished by being shared. In any discussion of copyright, it is useful to begin by reminding ourselves that ideas can't be copyrighted and can't be owned--only expression can. Furthermore, even when expression is copyrighted, academics ought to bear in mind their right to Fair Use, a crucial exception to copyright that exists in order to enable teaching, research, and news reporting.

A few more quotes to muse upon:

"It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their choice, if the laws are so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood; if they... undergo such incessant changes that no man who knows what the law is today can guess what it will be tomorrow "
-- James Madison

And finally:
"The people are the only censors of their governors: and even their errors will tend to keep these to the true principles of their institution. To punish these errors too severely would be to suppress the only safeguard of the public liberty. The way to prevent these irregular interpositions of the people is to give them full information of their affairs thro' the channel of the public papers, & to contrive that those papers should penetrate the whole mass of the people. The basis of our governments being the opinion of the people, the very first object should be to keep that right; and were it left to me to decide whether we should have a government without newspapers or newspapers without a government, I should not hesitate a moment to prefer the latter. But I should mean that every man should receive those papers & be capable of reading them. I am convinced that those societies (as the Indians) which live without government enjoy in their general mass an infinitely greater degree of happiness than those who live under the European governments. Among the former, public opinion is in the place of law, & restrains morals as powerfully as laws ever did anywhere. Among the latter, under pretence of governing they have divided their nations into two classes, wolves & sheep. I do not exaggerate. This is a true picture of Europe. Cherish therefore the spirit of our people, and keep alive their attention. Do not be too severe upon their errors, but reclaim them by enlightening them. If once they become inattentive to the public affairs, you & I, & Congress & Assemblies, judges & governors shall all become wolves. "
Thomas Jefferson To Edward Carrington
Paris, Jan. 16, 1787

What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm, so you think it would be fair if you wrote some kind of article against the Chinese government and then they arrested you when you decided to travel there?

yeah...

Hey!

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck you, I'm supposed to be learning how to use Tcl for work. And while I'm on that subject... For something different!

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Ok, so they're not random, but pseudo-random. Sue me. Or lick me. Whichever works for you.

How do you pronounce Sklyarov?

[scotpurl]

This is not a troll. I'm quite serious.

How does one pronounce Dmitri Sklyarov's last name?

There used to be the controversy of Linus' first name (and of Linux), and Linus thankfully provided us all with a .au or .wav file of it.

Spasibo.

Re:How do you pronounce Sklyarov?

[SuiteSisterMary]

sk'el-yar-ov Ooops but that's too lame, so let me throw in some random text. ;alkhflakhdfklahdlkhdgio49087q435oil,wg Is that better, slashcode?

Re:How do you pronounce Sklyarov?

[aboyko]

Like it's spelled.

skl (like in diSCLaimer)
ya (like in YAhoo!)
rov (like in... umm... ROV)

Now run those three together fairly quickly; roll the R a little bit; maybe swallow the "V" a little; and you're set.

Russian Government

[Anonymous Coward]

The Russian government makes me want to

+* j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f *+
* \ |\ \ *
j | / \ \ j
a | | \ \ a
c | | \ \ __ c
k / \ \ \/__|__,,..---v--. k
o | |__,,\.--"""\/ | \ o
f | | \ _> f
f| | _ _ _ _ | / f
*| | /_v_v_v_\..---""'`-' *
j| | __,,.| | | | | j
a| / \ \_h_h_h_/ a
c | | | c
k | | | k
o \ |\ | o
f \ | \___/ f
f \ | f
* \ | *
j | | j
a | | a
c | | c
k | | k
o | | o
f | | f
f | | f
* | | *
+* j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f *+


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live nude goats! (was: goats, the musical)

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's not forget that google has thousands of pictures of naked goats for you!

No question of jurisdiction

[DiningPhilosopher]

A company selling a product in America is subject to American laws prohibiting the sale of that product. Very simple really.

Re:No question of jurisdiction

[Ami Ganguli]

So is that the legal question? Whether or not selling something on your web site constitutes selling something in the U.S.?

Re:No question of jurisdiction

[DiningPhilosopher]

Actually, the transactions took place entirely within the US. Customers paid a company in the US and downloaded the application from a file server in the US. Unless I've been misinfomed.

Re:No question of jurisdiction

[rking]

And yet strangely neither this US company nor its officers or employees are being prosecuted.

None of this explains the basis on which Dmitri Sklyarov is being accused of a crime.

Re:No question of jurisdiction

[DiningPhilosopher]

If I sell you an illegal product, Visa is not liable for handling your money, and UPS is not liable for delivering the goods. I don't really see a difference here.

Threat?

[Da VinMan]

First, they have to figure out *why* it's a threat. Part of being an effective and moral software professional is the ability to be rational. Why is the DMCA a threat? Is there anything good about it too? Etc. I hear more demonizing about the DMCA and any kind of IP law than I know what to do with, and much more of it than I care to consider comes down to "because I don't like it". I'm sure thieves don't like car-theft prevention devices either, but the larger good of society guarantees that they're here to say despite that.

Even if your students still don't know about the DMCA when your class is finished, it won't matter. It's much more important for them to have a handle on being able to separate the issues on their own.

Re:Threat?

[kreyg]

Why is the DMCA a threat?

Because it goes beyond mandating what I may do, it mandates what I may know, and limits what I may legitimately and peacefully tell others in words, pictures, symbols, or their digital (electical, magnetic, optical) equivalents.

That is why.

Re:Threat?

[metachimp]

And provides that you may be incarcerated for a significant portion of your life.

Regardless of whether you think he's guilty or not, don't the DMCA's punishments seem a little harsh? He made a piece of software, nobody died, nobody got hooked on drugs. My main problem is that the penalties are so harsh.

Haven't these guys ever heard the phrase "Let the punishment fit the crime?"

Re:Threat?

[kreyg]

I would say that the requirement to immediately remove material immediately upon the accusation of infringement somewhat defeats the intention of "innocent until proven guilty" as well. It's more like "punished even if eventually found innocent."

*sigh*

Pictures from the August 30 San Fransico Protest

[mr_don't]

I put up some photos from the August 30 march on the Federal Building to demand Dmitry's charges be dropped. I hope to soon put a clip up with RMS and Bruce Perens speaking to the crowd...

Arrest the Dutch

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is an interesting parallel. What if we arrest all of the people who smoked pot while in Amsterdam when they visit or Americans returning to the US from Amsterdam. This is the same as what is happening here. Pot is "legal" in Amsterdam however illegal here in the US. Just like what Dmitri did in Russia is legal but illegal here.

my $0.02

Re:Arrest the Dutch

[Anonymous Coward]

No, he, in conjunction with Elcom, imported the software. Its like trying to bring back some kind nugs, and complaining that you once set foot in Amsterdam so you now have a pot pass for the globe. He wasn't indicted for creating a program that reads e-books he was indicted for marketing & distributing said program in the US, which is undeniable. If Elcom would have stuck to 100% Russian clients they wouldn't have had this problem.

Remember when

[Perldivr]

Remember when the Russians were the bad guys because they lived in a tolitarian society where the government could arrest you at any time if you did or said something they didn't like.

Hmmm. It seems that we have become what we feared the most about them.

- Perldivr

Re:Remember when

[Qrlx]

But there is an important difference. In Red Russia, the Government would throw you in jail if you poase a threat the Govenrment. In America, the Government throws you in jajil if you pose a threat to a Corporation. Our New U.S. Flag makes it easier to understand.

That guy with the sig, the quote by the president of Visa, has got it right.

Re:Remember when

[Moridineas]

Yes, except in this case it's for blatantly breaking copyright law.

Thnik about it this way. You buy a book. A hardcover. A novel we'll say. Should you be able to make a copy for your home, and one for your office, and then one for school...maybe one for the car while you're at it? and hey, if a friend wants a copy, why don't just give him one, i mean you have 8 already... I don't think that is right. Do you?

Scott

Re:Remember when

[metachimp]

They cheated! There are two Microsoft logos on that flag.

I get the point, and I agree, but it seemed funny to me that they had the Playboy and Apple Computer logos, since when did Playboy become on par with the likes of G.E. and Shell Oil?

It's pronounced like this

[Anonymous Coward]

This is only a rough approximation; it is a hard sound for most American English speakers to reproduce exactly:

* g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x *
g g
o / \ \ / \ o
a| | \ | | a
t| `. | | : t
s` | | \| | s
e \ | / / \\\ -- \\ : e
x \ \/ --~~ ~--| \ | x
* \ \-~ ~-\ | *
g \ \ .--------.__\| | g
o \ \_// ((> \ | o
a \ . C ) _ ((> | / a
t /\ | C )/ \ (> |/ t
s / /\| C) | (> / \ s
e | ( C__)\__/ // / / \ e
x | \ | \\__// (/ | x
* | \ \) `---- --' | *
g | \ \ / / | g
o | / | | \ | o
a | | / \ \ | a
t | / / | | \ |t
s | / / \/\/ | |s
e | / / | | | |e
x | | | | | |x
* g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x * g o a t s e x *

..

[Anonymous Coward]

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Re:..

[mrnobo1024]

All this spamming makes me want to

+* j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f *+
* \ |\ \ *
j | / \ \ j
a | | \ \ a
c | | \ \ __ c
k / \ \ \/__|__,,..---v--. k
o | |__,,\.--"""\/ | \ o
f | | \ _> f
f| | _ _ _ _ | / f
*| | /_v_v_v_\..---""'`-' *
j| | __,,.| | | | | j
a| / \ \_h_h_h_/ a
c | | | c
k | | | k
o \ |\ | o
f \ | \___/ f
f \ | f
* \ | *
j | | j
a | | a
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k | | k
o | | o
f | | f
f | | f
* | | *
+* j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f * j a c k * o f f *+
Please try to keep posts on topic.
Try to reply to other people comments instead of starting new threads.
Read other people's messages before posting your own to avoid simply duplicating what has already been said.
Use a clear subject that describes what your message is about.
Offtopic, Inflammatory, Inappropriate, Illegal, or Offensive comments might be moderated. (You can read everything, even moderated posts, by adjusting your threshold on the User Preferences Page)
Problems regarding accounts or comment posting should be sent to CowboyNeal.

The Cyber Archipelago

[Bluesee]

That story about Derek was funny, and it reminded me of the book I am currently reading, The Gulag Archipelago, by Solzhynetsin (sp!). That non-fictional story is an account of how power can corrupt, basically. The problem in Stalinist Russia was that the Reds were, if I have this right, basically trying to create a new society the ideology of which was vulnerable to the thoughts of objective people who could see the shortcomings of it. In their effort to control thought, the officials found it necessary to root out all possible instances of anti-communist behavior; unfortunately this included such things as not reaching the party farm production objectives (ten years in prison for not growing enough grain!) and not surrendering to German armies in WWII (when the POWs were returned to the SU in '45 - by Churchill, incidentally, against the soldiers' wills - rather than being welcomed back as heroes, they were arrested, tortured, and given 10-yr sentences, since they must have been spies to have survived the German camps!). Basically, Stalin, in his paranoia, and by extension the entire nation, found it necessary to control behavior by draconian means.

My point (and I do have one) is that the enforcement of infinitesimally minute behaviors requires the rooting out and punishing of the majority of the citizens of a nation: the mother country goes to war on its citizens. The way to do this is to put each and every citizen at risk of loss of liberty; i.e., each citizen is breaking some law or another. In this manner, the State gains control over the behavior of its population, and in a greater degree than just copying ebooks. Once you have copied an ebook, or, taken to the logical extreme, say, exceeded 55 mph (or snuck a beer into a college football game), you are a criminal.

But, while speeding doesn't leave a record of itself, ebook copying does and so leaves a legacy, a record of the crime. It can be likened to arresting you for a failed drug test; you are not doing a crime now, but there is proof that you once did.

For these reasons, the framers of the Constitution would wisely refrain from endorsing the bastardization of their concept of protection of Science and Arts through copyright. The prosecution of the law requires that we become Stalinist in the degree to which we must root out the crime. Napster points this out effectively, in my opinion: the only way to catch all those crimes is to monitor each and every terminal 24/7. And that gives away too much power to the government for freedom to be guaranteed, even in a Democracy.

If you didn't follow that, feel free to email me with any questions you might have...

Re:The Cyber Archipelago

[sdo1]

But, while speeding doesn't leave a record of itself, ebook copying does and so leaves a legacy, a record of the crime

The way things are headed, I can GUARANTEE you that things like speeding WILL INDEED be monitored. It starts slowly, but we're already on that slope. Put a toll transponder in your car. We've already seen these transponders used to track people. Next up, you'll get a ticket if you jump on a toll road and get from Exit A to Exit B in an average time that would exceed the speed limit.

But why stop there? These things are cheap enough. Make them mandatory in all cars. Monitor your car speed through GPS. Violate the speed limit, get a ticket in the mail. Plus tracking devices can help the cops find any car at any time because they're ALL being tracked. That's a GOOD thing, right? Fight crime, right?

This country is going to hell quickly. I fear for the life that my son is going to have.

-S

Re:The Cyber Archipelago

[Noer]

You make some good points. Another way to look at this (esp. the whole Napster thing, or your speeding example) is that when a LARGE percentage of a population (need not be an actual majority) are breaking the same law, the law needs to be examined closely.

Perhaps there's something quite wrong with society; if 30% of the population were murderers, this would definitely be the case. But perhaps it's an indication that the law should be changed. Should SO many people get speeding tickets all the time, especially when they're only a fraction ("selective enforcement" police units really scare me) of the total number of people speeding? Should everyone who used Napster be punished? Any society that has as large a percentage of its population in prison as ours does definitely has a problem (note: most of these people are in for drug-related offenses, which I think probably shouldn't be illegal).

A friend of mine often rants against unenforced laws; he thinks the speeding laws should be STRICTLY enforced, so that people would get pissed and demand that the law be changed. Perhaps this is true; it's a variation on the idea that a society that criminalizes (whether or not it punishes) a large % of the population has a major problem.

Re:The Cyber Archipelago

[ErikTheRed]

Speed monitoring has already been tried by car rental agencies, albeit without legal success.

One of my biggest beefs with law in general is that there is far, far too much of it. Many laws are routinely disregarded by the population - underage drinking, speed limits on freeways, and especially taxes - because they are far too restrictive, to the point where they defy common sense. Because we (Americans, and I'm sure plenty of others) live in a land rife with dictu absurda, we have developed a sense that we only have to follow laws that makes sense to us.

We also have a population largely willing to throw away its rights in order to combat the trendy social concern of the day. Of course, this is largely abetted by those with a political agenda that doesn't trust the common citizen to go about their day-to-day business without infinite hand-holding from big brother.

In order to develop respect for the law, we need to have a set of laws worth respecting.

Re:The Cyber Archipelago

[locust]

It won't be the police that demand it. It will be the insurance companies. They have a profit incentive to know if: you are driving regularly through a bad nieghborhood, driving too fast, driving farther than you tell them you drive to work. All of these things impinge upon the chances they will have to have to pay you if your car is stolen, crashed, etc. Further as large scale computing power becomes cheaper it will be come more practical to generate much more detailed actuarial tables that reflect these changes. These will translate into higher profits in the reinsurance market (insurers get insured against having to pay claims).

Finally, when it comes down to having an extra 20 bucks a month to feed your kids, or having that extra bit of privacy, I'm pretty sure where most people will come down.

--locust

Re:The Cyber Archipelago

[rcw-home]

he thinks the speeding laws should be STRICTLY enforced, so that people would get pissed and demand that the law be changed

I'd agree with this, however the last time I protested a sign post by obeying it, it put me in a situation where I could have been in an accident (I did 25mph on a 25mph two-lane road that could have easily been posted 35mph in spite of its many curves) when the truck tailgating me decided to cross the double line to pass me.

Re:The Cyber Archipelago

[Wah]

It will be the insurance companies.

It is also the defense companies. I can't look up the story I read about it (dang dial-up), but basically it was about the installation of speed monitoring cameras set-up in Wash, D.C. They had generated nearly $37 million for the city by snaggin every speeder. The fun part is that Lockheed Martin (IIRC) set them up for free...with a 35% take of the total revenue generated. So once, we start moving to a corporate police state, no one can break a law (get tough on "crime"), and ho boy will profits go through the roof.

Bush might see this as "saving the economy", but a 5 year old would probably see it as cutting open the goose to get the golden egg. Our system worked because of Freedom, capitalism was a stepping stone (and a dang useful one at that, but it has its downsides, see: our media, MS, RIAA, drug corps ad'ing on TV selling drugs no one needs until they think they do, the death of education, and yes, there's an etc. here too).

Re:The Cyber Archipelago

[Anonymous Coward]

And if the only people the insurance companies insure dont need insurance then what use are the insurance companies.

Re:The Cyber Archipelago

[Glock27]

The way things are headed, I can GUARANTEE you that things like speeding WILL INDEED be monitored. It starts slowly, but we're already on that slope. Put a toll transponder in your car. We've already seen these transponders used to track people [yahoo.com]. Next up, you'll get a ticket if you jump on a toll road and get from Exit A to Exit B in an average time that would exceed the speed limit.

There's an even more straightforward method than the transponders - speed sensors along the freeway at frequent intervals coupled with still cameras. The sensors are already there in many places in California, for instance, see the San Diego Area Traffic Report page.

As I understand it, systems like this coupled with cameras are already used to send automated tickets to people in Europe. Neat, eh?

But why stop there? These things are cheap enough. Make them mandatory in all cars. Monitor your car speed through GPS. Violate the speed limit, get a ticket in the mail. Plus tracking devices can help the cops find any car at any time because they're ALL being tracked. That's a GOOD thing, right? Fight crime, right?

This country is going to hell quickly. I fear for the life that my son is going to have.

I couldn't agree more, and the 'no illegal surveillance' issue is one worth getting involved in. One good place to start is boycotting anything that promotes hidden cameras for anything. Spy TV and its ilk, for instance.

Perhaps with enough public outcry we can prevent 1984 (ala George Orwell) from happening here in the US...but at this point I wouldn't count on it. Robert Heinlein was right on target many years ago (~30) when he pointed out that the US started on the road to hell when a national ID system was established. Now we have national crime databases, and a national police apparatus that grows ever stronger and prone to abuse. Time to colonize the ocean floor, or another planet...we desperately need a new frontier, with elbow room and actual freedom.

186,282 mi/s...not just a good idea, its the law!

Re:The Cyber Archipelago

[Bluesee]

One must ask the question: "Why are so many technological advances (e.g., echelon, carnivore, street cameras) being coupled with so many bad laws (UCITA, DMCA, incl Napster and MS rulings)?", and again, the answer seems to be that power begets power, ever ratcheting itself up to higher and higher levels through power acquisition. Here we see the mechanism by which power is obtained: again, in the Gulag Archipelago, the budding country needed powerful laws to effect its sweeping changes, so it came up with Article 58, which was very broadly stated and vague. The technology they used back then was the technology of persuasion (i.e., torture) to - in what must have somewhat inspired Orwell! - elicit confessions and enable the police to nab anyone at any time.

Now we have this all-encompassing DCMA law and technologies like carnivore ready to enforce it. They go hand-in-hand, of course, and play into each other. We need Carnivore to enforce the DMCA; we need street cameras to prosecute the drug war (and helicopters and militia and battering ram tanks and don't get me started); we need the Maser gun to break up the riots. It is kind of a "military industrial complex" of law enforcement, and Disney wants it, and MS wants it, and Monsanto wants it - all to secure the revenue stream for their interests!

Once this power is established it can be sold to the highest bidder - one of the more insightful points of the "Derek" story.

I want a government limited in its power over people, but with enough power derived from the people to keep the corps properly regulated. But its not working that way. We instead have a government that is expanding its power, corporations that are reaping the benefits of that, and people who find their behaviors more and more circumscribed every day.

Re:The Cyber Archipelago

[Anonymous Coward]

Wups, sorry, I didn't mean to link to an anti-Semite webpage... eeesh...

Try this one instead

Bluesee

Re:The Cyber Archipelago

[meldroc]

Two of the nightmare examples stated in this thread have already come true. The state of Indiana will ticket drivers on their toll highways if the timestamps on their toll cards indicate they were driving faster than the speed limit, and Progressive Insurance has been testing a system where the insuree has a GPS device installed in their car, ostensibly for an insurance discount. If the car is driven at night, or through a bad neigborhood, premiums go up. Acme Auto Rental has been slapping people who speed in their rental cars with surcharges automatically added to their credit card bill.

Smile for the unblinking camera and welcome to Hell.

Re:The Cyber Archipelago

[Nemesis][]

But why stop there? These things are cheap enough. Make them mandatory in all cars. Monitor your car speed through GPS. Violate the speed limit, get a ticket in the mail. Plus tracking devices can help the cops find any car at any time because they're ALL being tracked. That's a GOOD thing, right? Fight crime, right?

Ok, a bit offtopic here but why allow them to speed in the first place? Why not install a computer controlled governor? Cars are already getting fitted with a "Black Box", why not tack on GPS/map combo that knows the speed of the road?

Loss of revenue for local police, major oil companies (run faster = burn more gas), places that produce high performance car parts...?

Lunatic Asylum, n.: The place where optimism most flourishes.

Re:The Cyber Archipelago

[Anonymous Coward]

And despite everything you said, you have a son.
I don't understand some people.

Re:The Cyber Archipelago

[Polo]

I was reading an article in Motorcyclist magazine this month regarding the use of cameras to monitor traffic violations.

Apparently, the insurance companies have strategy of gradually introducing traffic cameras - not for speeding, but for red-lights. It seems that the general population would have a backlash against speed cameras, but not against red light cameras.

What they found out is that most red-light offenses occur just when the light turns from red to yellow.

Well, the truth of red-light cameras seems to be that they don't prevent accidents, but they generate revenues and traffic offenses (that allow the insurance companies to charge more money).

However, to decrease the number of violations, it's quite easy to just add 1.5 seconds to the yellow light time and do away with the cameras. This might also make the intersections safer, (though there's no proof that just missing a red light leads to accidents statistically)

But the big plan is to get cameras into society that are "acceptable", then quietly move onto other cameras. Like speed cameras.

sigh.

Re:The Cyber Archipelago

[Jaysyn]

I don't have a URL, but I read somewhere that the rental car company got in trouble for doing that, as it was an invasion of privacy.

Jaysyn

Re:The Cyber Archipelago

[modemboy]

Well, time to start wearing a ski mask while I drive... ;)

Thank you!

[Anonymous Coward]

That pronunciation guide was very helpful!

Russian Foreign Ministry warning means 1 thing:

[thejake316]

Russian Foreign Ministry has warned its programmers not to travel to the United States.

If that warning is heeded, it may mean the job market will open up for the programmers who were put on the dole after this economy and this stock market got a little more rational.

Why are you so sure Dmitri is guilty?

[sealawyer]

I've seen a number of posts suggesting that there is no doubt about Dmitri's guilt. Here is a list of conceivable ways that Dmitri could be found not guilty.

1) The DMCA is unconstitutional. No valid law to break means not guilty.

2) No jurisdiction over whatever activities Dmitri did commit. I don't think Dmitri can be prosecuted for writing or using the program in Russia. He must be implicated in the sales activity.

3) Although Dmitri is the copyright holder, the government does not establish that he colluded with Elcomsoft to sell the product in the US. Most countries don't have the same kind of "work for hire" copyright laws as the US, so it is perfectly plausible for a Russian employee to be a credited with the copyright and yet not be the motivating factor in his employer's sales strategy.

I haven't read the latest charges so I don't know what evidence the government has other than what was alleged in the original affidavit.

For those people who want to see the whole thing played out to the end, there is this encouraging news from Dmitri's lawyer:

Mr. Burton said Mr. Sklyarov would not plea-bargain. "That is out of the question," he said.

Does anyone have Dmitry's address?

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought him a going away (to prison for at least 25 years) gift and I need to know where to send it. Don't tell him, but it's a tub of Vaseline. It's special heavy duty stuff too with the GOATSE SEAL OF APPROVAL!! It was very expensive. Please help me out here!

Another Scopes "Monkey" trial

[fiori]

This could be as important as the Scopes Monkey trial was. In terms of legal and public exposure to an issue that much of the general public doesn't think is. It could make them confront the impact on 'fair-use' that the DCMA has. Only the technology early-adopters and the digeratti are aware of the DCMA's true scope. Let Bubba Joe know that the MPAA, RIAA, etc. really owns what's in his house and opinions will change.

Let's hope it turns out better than that Scopes trial did initially.

He's guilty and won't prevail

[Anonymous Coward]

IANAL,etc. but......

1) Is Dimitri guilty of violating the DMCA? Yes, that seems clear.

2) Is the DCMA enforcable against him? Pretty clear in the eys of US law enforcment. If Dimitri had committed an act in Russia which was legal in Russia, but criminal in the US, the US could not arrest Dimitry and enforce its laws upon him. The debate stems from the fact the US government sees the "sale" of this software as happening on US soil, not Russian, due to the fact that the payment and procurment of the software were both on US based servers. This is an important fact. A non US-based firm which has a US based presence that manufactures a US controlled substance is liable under US law. It is curious that Elcomsoft used US based servers when there are plenty of non-US alternatives. Was this poor judgment or was it intentional?

3) Should the DCMA exist? Most US citizens don't know or care enough right now to cause it to be struck from the books through legislative means. And I think that right now it is unclear what the judicial system will ultimately decide.

Though clearly guilty, a non guilty plea is the only means for Dimitry to bring enough exposure to this matter so that it can be fully vettted. My personal feeling is that Dimitry and Elcomsoft are liable under the DCMA, and that this case's fact pattern did not turn out to be as I had originally hoped.

Unfortunately, I don't believe Dimitry's prospects to be that great.

I would like to see a non US based firm sell DCMA violating sofware completly offshore with restrictions (which could be circumvented) on sale to US based customers. Then have this firm have its non US citizen programers tour around the US taunting law enforcment to "come and get me". That would be a much more interesing case.

Too much of a coward to have a sig

I have a few problems

[Pinball Wizard]

with the Skylarov case. First, there is a big difference between Ed Felton, who broke the SDMI encryption and Skylarov. Felton did his work as a purely academic excercise, whereas Skylarov made a product and distributed it for sale.

Seems to me if Skylarov was only interested in promoting better security he wouldn't have tried to sell his product. This looks to me like someone trying to make a buck off an insecure product.

Look at it another way. I come up with a key that can open and start any Ford vehicle. I have a couple of options. I could contact Ford and show them the tech that allows anyone to break into their vehicles. Or, if I don't want to deal with Ford directly I could publish the findings in an academic journal without trying to sell the key.

Instead of doing that, however, I decide to market and sell keys that can break into every Ford. Now, don't you see what's wrong with that? I could have taken the high road, but instead I tried to make a buck. This is pretty much what Dmitry did.

I can assure you, that if anyone tries to market a key that will unlock any Ford, that person will get thrown in jail if caught. Why should software be different?

Re:I have a few problems

[bnenning]

Seems to me if Skylarov was only interested in promoting better security he wouldn't have tried to sell his product.

So what? Nowhere in the Constitution or Bill of Rights does it say that your rights can only be exercised for nonprofit purposes.

I can assure you, that if anyone tries to market a key that will unlock any Ford, that person will get thrown in jail if caught.

As usual, most real-world analogies don't work well here. Dmitry's program doesn't allow users to "unlock" any ebook, only ones that they actually own. The MPAA's description of DeCSS as a "digital crowbar" is actually more accurate. Crowbars have both legal and illegal uses, and it is not illegal to sell, possess, or describe how to make one.

Re:I have a few problems

[SirGeek]

Its more analgous to "You own 4 Ford Cars, Someone makes a tool that allows you to use 1 key to operate all the vehicles (Provided you have the REAL keys) ..."

Re:I have a few problems

[Moridineas]

Here here! Well said. Too many people here get rapped up in what a) others say and they take for pure fact, and b) whatever they think will get them more karma.

thanks for bucking the trend.

Scott

Re:I have a few problems

[Heph_Smith]

Sorry but I have to say this....

Its ignorant to think that because he worked for a company in another country that sold the product... that he should be given punishment because of their actions. I suppose if you looked into this subject at all before giving your opinion that it would have actually had facts and you would not have mentioned Skylarov as having "made a product and distributed it for sale"

Hopefully that should clear up one of your problems that you mentioned.

I won't even mention the analogy.

Re:I have a few problems

[Cardinal Biggles]

I can assure you, that if anyone tries to market a key that will unlock any Ford, that person will get thrown in jail if caught. Why should software be different?

Because software is speech, not a physical object like a car-key.

I agree that Ed Felten is on higher moral ground than Dmitry Sklyarov (or, actually, ElcomSoft his employer), even when taking into account the little fact that when you're a student in Russia you're going to need every buck you can possibly get so that you can feed your children.

But that does not mean that he should go to jail. Nobody should go to jail for publishing software, because when you publish software, you are publishing an explanation, an opinion, an expression of ideas, in short: speech.

Re:I have a few problems

[dasunt]

Actually, lets look at this analogy. Pick-guns, which, when they work, allows you to pick a lock in a few seconds, are legal to sell. Lock-picking knowledge is legal to distribute. Slimjims are legal to sell. Drill bits that can cut through hardened steel are legal.

So, in a way, we have a few "keys", that although imperfect, will unlock most cars. They are legal to sell in the US. In a simular light, its legal for me to get the keycode off a lock cylinder of a car, go down to the locksmith, and get him to make me a key for that lock, without me ever showing proof that I own that vehicle or even have it in my possession. Its also legal for me to have someone travel to a specific location and have them unlock a vehicle for me with their knowledge and tools, and for them to bill me for their efforts.

In short, the analogy stinks. Sorry.

Re:I have a few problems

[kreyg]

Why should software be different?

Uh... because in this case, after I drive away in "your" Ford... your Ford is still in the driveway.

If I built a matter replicator and duplicated your Ford, then it would be a reasonable software analogy.

And under the DMCA, the replicator wouldn't be illegal, but I wouldn't be able to give you one or tell you how to build one. That would be a real shame.

Re:I have a few problems

[dpletche]

Who said he was interested in improving e-book security? He was interested in enabling Russian consumers to exercise their LEGAL RIGHTS. In Russia it is explicitly legal to copy a work from one medium to another for personal use. In fact, it's even legal in this country, according to Senator Orrin Hatch. In a hearing on the DMCA, he observed:

''Can I make a copy of a CD that I buy and put it into a car?'' asked Hatch. When Rosen hemmed and hawed, Hatch muttered, ''The answer is yes.''
(http://gareth.membrane.com/leflawnet/hatch.html )

The DMCA contravenes and abrogates classical legal rights of citizens in the USA and around the world. Ironically, Adobe's e-book format illegally impedes the rights of Russian consumers according to Russian law. I'd love to see the outrage if Russia kidnapped some American executives and programmers to hold them trial for violating Russian laws protecting freedom of information.

Re:I have a few problems

[Legion303]

Seems to me if Skylarov was only interested in promoting better security he wouldn't have tried to sell his product.

It wasn't his product. He's *one* programmer for the company ElcomSoft. He wasn't selling it, either. The sad part isn't the fact that you didn't bother to follow the case before commenting; the sad part is that neither did the idiots who modded you up to 3 for "insightful."

-Legion

Re:I have a few problems

[razboinik]

You are missing the point. Your Ford case should read like this:

Ford makes a car that can only be started between 6 am and 9 pm. Sklyarov creates a product that allows *you* to start *your* car any time and sells it to you. Ford gets pissed off because they could allow turning the car on at any time for an additional charge.

The deal is ebook restricts your rights and Dima's program reestablishes them.

Re:I have a few problems

[confidential]

It's not so much "a key that can open any ford." Skylarov's company made software that allowed blind people to read their e-books. As adobe's software doesn't have text-to-speach, yet both MacOS and Windows have software readily available to do that (MacOS has it built in, Windows might as well, I'm not sure). Skylarov made a program that would decrypt the e-book and feed it to text-to-speach, allowing the purchaser the right to listen to the book.

Now, as I understand, the DefCon people heard about this and knew what it meant (he cracked e-books) and asked him to give an academic presentation of how this was done. Skylarov did what Felton did, except he had a program out in the wild to show off how it worked.

Back to the Ford example. How many people now have those IR car openers? Did anyone else see this story on slashdot? If people using palm software (I assume the software in question was OmniRemote) got between you and your car and intercepted the beam, you could have your car stolen. Does this mean that Palms should be illegial? no. OmniRemote is used for a universal remote, yet can be used to unlock any Ford. Skylarov's program gives blind people their rights, yet can be used to copy the e-book.

Re:I have a few problems

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems to me if Skylarov was only interested in promoting better security he wouldn't have tried to sell his product. This looks to me like someone trying to make a buck off an insecure product.

Isn't that what Adobe did?

Re:I have a few problems

[Keith McClary]

Instead of doing that, however, I decide to market and sell keys that can break into every Ford. Now, don't you see what's wrong with that? I could have taken the high road, but instead I tried to make a buck. This is pretty much what Dmitry did.

No. He assigned the rights to a company, which may have marketed the product illegally.

You could sell your invention to a company with the intention that it would be marketed to legitimate users such as locksmiths. But suppose the company screws up and sells some to crooks - does that make you a criminal?

warning! ASCII goatse.cx troll

[Anonymous Coward]

Danger, Will Robinson, Danger!

warning! ASCII goatse.cx troll

..

[Anonymous Coward]

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21 Century version of the Printing Press

[Metox]

As I was reading the various posts on this thread, I was struck by an interesting similarity.

Regress back to the 15th and 16th centuries. All written material was created by people who could write (scribes). Commissioned by people who could pay (Royalty). In a language that that is now dead (Latin).

There were attempts to produce written works in a country's (European) native language, but these were expensive, (scribes) and consequently not available to the general (peasant) population.

Enter the Printing Press (Gutenberg) and lo, thow can have a book printed in a national language, for a miniscule cost. Books of knowledge exploded onto the scene. The general populace was no longer handicaped by a lack of readily available research. No longer would the knowledge that had been so closely garded (encrypted?) by the Latin speaking world be inaccessable to the masses.

Sklyarov and other cryptologists are merely carrying on the Gutenberg tradition of making knowledge available to the masses.

Then again, what would Gutenberg have thought of Romance Novels?

Ps. Until money grepping legislation like the dmca (it doesn't deserve an acronym) is removed, digital books will never catch on. I see Books (paper and ink) staying around for a long time.

I don't like this as much as the next guy but....

[BombTechnician]

Reading through the indictment, I saw that this is accaptable due to the fact that it is upholding the law. But I feel that they have the wrong person. If legal action were to be taken against anyone, Elcomsoft would be it. Dmitry was only an employee, doing his job. Elcom decided to sell his work. Now if Dmitry had posted it himself, it would be a different story. But Elcom didn't _have_ to release the software.
But IANAL, so mabey I'm way off base.
(And go ahead and give me a redundant, i care not)

Some implications of this & the Oz news

[jd]

It seems clear that any action carried out in ANY other country may be grounds for prosecution in ANY OTHER country. (Australia now permits overseas defamation lawsuits, for example.)

It follows that:

• Anyone in the US can be tried and convicted of posession of a firearm, should they go to the United Kingdom, whether or not they bring any firearms with them.
• Anyone in the US who publishes more than 1/3 of their news material in English can be convicted in France for inadequate use of French.
• Anyone practicing medicine in the US is in -serious- trouble, unless licenced in all 50 States. Practicing -anywhere- in the US could be grounds for deportation and conviction in a State for which the doctor has no licence.

These sound crazy, don't they? But, really, what's the difference between a South Carolina doctor being convicted of practicing in South Carolina, without a California licence, and some Russian geek being convicted of DMCA "violations" arising from work in Russia?

Well, other than Russia is a lot further away, isn't even part of the US, and other such details. The doctor example I gave would actually be far more reasonable. At least the alleged events would have happened on the same Continent!

Re:Some implications of this & the Oz news

[t_allardyce]

Yes, but in England, we don't have stupid laws that allow you to be arrested for writing (what was effectively a "print screen and then page down" program (yes i know it didn't do that but _effectively_ it did) in _another_ country! And after seeing its effects hopefully even the dumb Blair will figure out whats right.

And don't write a reply to this mentioning our gun laws lol...

Re:Some implications of this & the Oz news

[jd]

I quite agree. We just have laws that allow you to be arrested if you look "odd" ("Terrorism Prevention Act"), visit the wrong country (see the TV documentary "Death on the Rock"), belong to CND ("Potential Subversive"), or walk down a footpath with some friends ("Criminal Justice Act").

That said, I =like= the English justice system a whole lot better than the systems used by other countries, ESPECIALLY the United States. It gets a lot of things wrong, it has an attitude problem from hell, and Jack Straw is Scarecrow's dumber twin. But at least it makes an effort, and the House of Lords isn't entirely politically biased.

Re:Some implications of this & the Oz news

[Anonymous Coward]

The cases you cite are not parallel at all, since the program was sold primarily to people in the US. A more similar case, (if breaking encryption really was immoral), would be a group of people in the US selling submachine guns to terrorists in Northern Ireland. Obviously a law has been broken here, and the British government has jurisdiction. It would be stupid to travel to London and talk about how great your illegal business is working.

That said, breaking encryption should not be illegal. It is a totally separate act from making copies and distributing them. And I still can't believe that they actually arrested the programmer, who presumably has nothing with selling the product in US markets.

Re:Some implications of this & the Oz news

[metachimp]

Actually in that case, it would be just as likely to get busted for it here, too. Last I checked it was illegal to sell submachine guns without a license. Additionally, there may be a law specifically stating that if you're caught trying to sell guns to terrorists in the US, they throw the book at you. The British would probably let us handle it, unless they were caught over in Britain, even the Republic of Ireland would nail you for that.

Are we now what Russia was 20 years ago?

[Synn]

Does anyone else see the irony in Russia warning its citizens to avoid the US because we might unjustly lock them up?

This is scary stuff people.

Re:Are we now what Russia was 20 years ago?

[Moridineas]

The difference is between unjust actions in a democratic society (ie, US) and a communist dictaroship (ie, USSR).

Scott

Re:Are we now what Russia was 20 years ago?

[jedwards]

Okay, so which is worse?
Unjust actions in a democratic society?
Or unjust actions in communist dictatorship?

Re:Are we now what Russia was 20 years ago?

[Aexia]

The difference is between unjust actions in a democratic society (ie, US) and a communist dictaroship (ie, USSR).

Wasn't Putin democratically elected though? And, Bush was effectively appointed by the Supreme Court.

[Insert your own joke about the US and USSR switching places]

Re:Are we now what Russia was 20 years ago?

[metachimp]

Since we DO NOT LIVE in democratic society, I honestly can't say.

Doing what Sklyarov did is as much a crime to our estato corprativo as political dissidence was to the former Soviet Union. Which is worse? I guess it's unlikely that anyone will want to execute the guy or send him to a gulag, but hey, there's always room to expand on DMCA.

It's 2001, can we get off the "If you don't like it, go move to Russia", USA all the way rah-rah stuff now? OK, OK, we get it. The Soviet Union failed because socialism is evil, corrupt and wrong, and the US is always and forever on the side of right and justice worldwide.

Do yourself a favor, go back to college.

Re:Are we now what Russia was 20 years ago?

[Moridineas]

Yes, which is why I said "USSR" and not Russia.

Scott

Re:Are we now what Russia was 20 years ago?

[Moridineas]

Unjust actions in a communist dictatorship.

Because invariably, the more Free a society is, the more likely it is that injustices will not go unnoticed. Unjust laws--unpopular laws--will not stand forever where people's wills are.

If people don't like the DMCA it will fall. If the DMCA remains something that only slashdotters and other tiny tiny minority groups care about, it will stand. dunno if that's good or bad.

Scott

Re:I have a few problems - Moron

[codepunk]

So tell me mr. genius why are lock picks not illegal? I thought so, you have no answer, that is because you have to be caught in the actual theft and this is no different. He is in jail for producing lock picks not for using them.

..

[Anonymous Coward]

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A key that doesn't let you fair-use the work.

[yerricde]

Sklyarov isn't a citizen.

Of the United States, true, but he is still a citizen of the planet Earth and of the human race.

Text-to-speech is offered by the Adobe software, and backups/archiving can happen in encrypted form. If you know of one good reason why you should be able to decrypt ebooks without having a valid key from the authors, let me know.

Except you do have a valid key; you got it when you licensed the eBook. Adobe's software just doesn't let you use key to fair-use your validly licensed copies.

Re:A key that doesn't let you fair-use the work.

[Anonymous Coward]

Specifically what fair use rights are you talking about? Congress hasn't extended first sale, etc to "e-books." If you're citing a small chunk of text you can write it down or take a picture, IDGAF.

Re:A key that doesn't let you fair-use the work.

[Kenyaman]

Fair use is entrenched in the concepts behind copyright. It's a concept which makes copyright good for society and not a special protection for the authors of a work.

Re:A key that doesn't let you fair-use the work.

[einhverfr]

Fair use is entrenched in the concepts behind copyright. It's a concept which makes copyright good for society and not a special protection for the authors of a work.

Of course Adobe, RIAA, MPAA, etc. will argue that copyright is their special protection as publishers and facilitators for publishers... These companies do not believe that copyright is supposed to be good for society except in an economic sense.

Re:A key that doesn't let you fair-use the work.

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's all be vigilantes. By decrypting stuff that doesn't belong to us, we're acting for the good of society. People are too dumb to understand legal concepts like fair use, but we can because we can program, so we must break laws explicitly put in place to prevent our actions.

Re:A key that doesn't let you fair-use the work.

[Anonymous Coward]

Once again, if you've obtained a key legally, you can decrypt the eBook. Name one valid, legal fair use right you should have without the key.

Re:A key that doesn't let you fair-use the work.

[Kenyaman]

Suppose I want to put the book (or whatever) on my palmtop that doesn't have their decryption program. I have the key, and fair use says I can do that, but DMCA says I can't. That is the issue. Similarly, suppose I upgrade to Windows Wince (XP) and there isn't a Windows Wince reader. Fair uses says I should be able to extract the work to an unencrypted form so I can do that. Not a use without a key, agreed, but I would argue that's not the point.

This is exceedingly humiliating.

[JeremyYoung]

My country has humiliated me. My country, the United States, has deeply embarassed me. How is it that the country that stood for freedom of speech has now gone so low as to begin warping laws that it's citizens granted artists to restrict civil rights? Worse yet, we're not restricting the civil rights of our own citizens, WE'RE RESTRICTING THE CIVIL RIGHTS OF CITIZENS FROM COUNTRIES WHOM WE ENCOURAGED TO EMBRACE FREE SPEECH. In fact, we're doing such a good job of it, that now Russia is warning it's citizens not to travel to our country, just like our country constantly warns us not to travel to China.

This is exceedingly humiliating and depressing. It was less than 15 years ago that we encouraged Gobachev to tear down the wall, to enact change in a totalitarian regime that completely restricted freedom of speech.Now that same country is warning it's citizens against our lack of freedoms.

Words fail.

Re:This is exceedingly humiliating.

[Xerithane]

For what it counts, this sentiment is sadly shared by myself. I do not understand how so easily consumers have lost their voice to corporations, and the masses. It's sadly growing into a nebulous entity no longer controlled by the government, a government established by the people for the people.

I have paid my taxes, and my dues. I'm strongly considering re-rooting myself into a true free economy and country. I know nothing is perfect, but there are many countries that are much better than what we're finding here. I try to relate this to the automobile industry, and the rail road industry. It takes a while for thought transition to change. For individuals to accept the new innovation into daily life and then a balance will occur. Unfortunately, through all those "revolutions" we have kept our speech. Here, we have lost our voice. Our freedom of speech has been abolished and placed into the hands of other individuals, not appointed by state, to determine what is ok to say.

I feel useless to change this, but I will never stop protesting. I'll never stop sending emails to everyone I know. I believe in freedom, sadly enough I don't believe in America anymore.

Re:This is exceedingly humiliating.

[Anonymous Coward]

Where would you move?

As a European, I am saddened to see that the US policy of "exporting" its laws and getting others to pass them (this is why marijuana is illegal in most countries, BTW) is once again succeeding. We have no DMCA, yet, but it looks like it's only a matter of time.

I hope you Americans manage to get rid of the DMCA ASAP so we don't end up with something similar.

Re:This is exceedingly humiliating.

[Anonymous Coward]

And it was not 50 years before that McCarthy forever tainted American culture with his relentless anti-communism ("anti-american") campaigns (the "damn commie" mentality is STILL evident even today on /.). Or that institutionalised racism was still a fact. Or that book banning was common (and in fact still occurs). And before that was slavery. And less than 100 years ago women still could not vote. And lets not forget that "prohibition" thing, or the entire category of consentual crimes, or that it is still illegal to be homosexual in dozens of states in the USA, or FBI carnivore system etc.

In spite of what most of us seem to think of the USA ("leader of the free world", "champion of human rights", blah blah), in reality we do not have a very good human rights record. The USA has never been very good at human rights. Granted, it has in general been steadily improving, but there has never been a substantial period in the history of the USA where there were not widespread human rights violations. The USA's general (inflated) perception of its own freedoms does not seem to correlate all that well with the reality. Although the 90's was probably the most "free" period the USA has ever seen, it seems to have gone down a bit again. Hopefully the "checks and balances" will kick in sometime soon, leaving hopefully relatively few innocent victims in its wake (e.g. Dmitry).

I'm not saying the USA is really bad on human rights, compared to many other countries (e.g. China) its not. I'm just saying that we are also not quite as free as we so loudly and continually proclaim to be.

Re:This is exceedingly humiliating.

[VeryInky]

I do not understand how so easily consumers have lost their voice to corporations, and the masses. It's sadly growing into a nebulous entity no longer controlled by the government, a government established by the people for the people.

Because they are consumers, an end to an economic system, and not citizens of a country. The people who inhabit the united states are'nt refered to as "citizens" anymore, which would imply that they had rights, just "consumer" class economic units. Designed and bred to accept whatever they're told by the media and buy what they see in advertising.

It's all very efficient. That's why it will happen. A citizen is irrelevant since economic decisions are done for the corporation's sake. Voteing is irrelevant since whoever wins will be indepted to whatever paid for the election. So why bother calling people citizens if it's an empty title? Consumers is a far more accurate title.

-Me

Re:This is exceedingly humiliating.

[supruzr]

You don't understand how consumers have lost their voice? You know just as well as most of the rest of us. You just insist on giving people the benefit of the doubt. The few that care are eclipsed by the many that don't. Apathy is spreading like a disease, and has been for as many years as I care to recall. I share all these sentiments, and I don't care to believe where events like this begin to point.

I'm under the impression that legislators really don't understand the nature of this danger. They won't begin to see it until it affects their interests in a way they can't ignore or tolerate. There's a major lack of tact with technology issues in Congress. I don't think many people understand that opposing the DMCA is not the same as giving consent to dismantle all copyright law. The clarification needs to be made, but most of the people who understand don't have a soapbox to stand on.

Re:This is exceedingly humiliating.

[Xerithane]

A definitely good and valid point. I was explaining the dangers of the DMCA to a friend and she asked why it was a problem. The screaming negative is she is a junior engineer.

I fear by the time congress and the masses understand the repercussions of the DMCA and other related laws it will be too late, as we've already given the corporate bodies too much power.

It's a sad state in which corporations get more freedoms than an individual.

yo

[Anonymous Coward]

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Skylarov seen on 5th and Main

[Recolada]

Dmitri Skylarov was seen today at 5th and Main entering a porta-potty. There is wild speculation taking place as to his expected visit. Coverage on Skylarov will resume after this bulletin on the Condit case.

Coverage in Time and Newsweek too...

[VValdo]

It is starting to get some national coverage...aside from the NYTimes story there are also these two:

Time Magazine
Newsweek

W

Russia is not the USA

[Alien54]

the most basic part of this is trying to prosecute someone for doing something that was legal in his own country.

The USA does not own or run Russia. So why are we trying to enforce our laws there?

How about making Russia a full fledged member of the USA so that the US can really make them obey USA laws. Sorry, there is that small detail on democracy. They might take over the USA that way.

What else is the US going to go after?

y'know, Adobe should PAY for Dmitri's defense. It is only fair.

- - -
Radio Free Nation
"If You have a Story, We have a Soap Box"
- - -

Re:Russia is not the USA

[jazman_777]

the most basic part of this is trying to prosecute someone for doing something that was legal in his own country.
The USA does not own or run Russia. So why are we trying to enforce our laws there?

This would logically lead to the question: so why did we bomb Yugoslavia, exactly?

Re:Russia is not the USA

[Anonymous Coward]

We neither own nor run Colombia, but we have laws against trafficking illegal goods into the US, which is the analog of what Sklyarov and Elcomsoft are charged with on all 5 counts - not actions in Russia, but trafficking the junk to the US.

Re:Russia is not the USA

[Idolatre]

We should boycott Adobe until they agree to pay for Dmitry's defense

Re:Russia is not the USA

[Silver222]

Or why are we spraying Colombia?

Re:Russia is not the USA

[Alien54]

This would logically lead to the question: so why did we bomb Yugoslavia, exactly?

and this leads to the question of what responsibilities do you have to your neighbors (as a country).

Could you apply your laws to the actions of individuals in the other country?

Could you say where the line is to be drawn, and when is it proper to intervene, if ever?

And then you can discuss the individual situations in Yougoslavia, an area of the world the gave us the word 'Balkanization'

- - -
Radio Free Nation
"If You have a Story, We have a Soap Box"

let him Rot in jail

[Anonymous Coward]

This guy broke the law right or wrong.

The U.S. is Evil

[karb]

Has anybody noticed that the U.S. has the DMCA and nobody else has anything similar? (rhetorical) :)

How about that most of the entertainment industry is based in the U.S. and/or targeted towards U.S. audiences? (Not trying to be U.S.-centric here ... there IS plenty of foreign entertainment, I just think that it is bigger here).

Then, is it so hard to believe that the U.S. would have the most oppressive laws regarding copyright protection? Much like France and Germany have the most oppressive laws regarding Nazi's? I'm sure middle-eastern countries bend over backwards to suit oil production. (etc.)

We still need to get rid of the DMCA :). I just dispute the idea that the U.S. is a bastion of totalitarianism because we have bad laws for understandable reasons :)

Re:The U.S. is Evil

[Sludge]

You may be interested to know a version of the DMCA is coming to Canada, whether or not you think entertainment and consumerism applies up north as well.

The Attorney's office broke the DMCA

[cvd6262]

From CNN:

The U.S. Attorney's office brought charges against ElcomSoft after purchasing a copy of the software over the Internet from ElcomSoft's Web site, which is hosted in the U.S. and uses a U.S.-based payment services provider, the indictment said.

So, the way that they knew about the crime was to commit the crime of purchasing, and thus owning "illegal" software? I guess they probably think that this is like the cop who poses as a buyer for crack on the street?

Re:The Attorney's office broke the DMCA

[Natalie's Hot Grits]

uhh, your an idiot. Drug cops purchase drugs every day to secure convictions.

The DMCA has a provision allowing the government to not follow the DMCA rules for warrants, etc. Even if this provision was not in there, The government still would be legal in its purchase. It is called gathering evidence. Its illegal to posess drugs, certain guns, etc. Yet the police can legally do it for this purpose.

No Crime, No guilt.

[Penguinoflight]

First, even though Sklyarov was using a US server, he isn't a US citizen, so he shouldn't be judged by US laws. But that's not really the point.

If he plead guilty, he would be admitting that what he did was wrong, not that it was in violation of the DCMA

Re:No Crime, No guilt.

[metachimp]

That's not how it works. If you're in a country and violate their laws, you will be arrested, tried and convicted (or not) under their laws. All the US Embassy will do is give you a phone number of a lawyer who speaks English.

I think the DMCA is awful, but realize that traveling to another country makes you subject to their laws.

He was describing how to do it...

[Smallest]

that's all it takes to break the DMCA - simply telling someone else how to defeat a copy protection scheme.

-c

Beating Bullies

[Fear the Clam]

As my brother said to me the other day, "The only way to beat bullies is to stand up to them."

As Ender would say, the only way to beat bullies is to hurt them so badly that they can never hurt you again.

The software was sold in the US

[flatrock]

The software was sold in the us, through a US distributer. This isn't a case where no laws were broken on US soil.

To keep with your analogy. Your person who jay-walked (created the software) in Podunk, then drove to new your and ran a red light (distributed illegal software) in New York. He got cited for running a red light, and your complaining that jay-walking isn't illegal in Podunk.

Dimitri's writing the software in Russia may not be within the jurisdiction of the United States, but distributing that software in the US sure is.

Re:The software was sold in the US

[rking]

No, to keep the analogy someone else acting for the first jay walker's employer ran a red light in New York, so the first person gets arrested under some bizarre sort of reverse-vicarious liability.

Re:The software was sold in the US

[dachshund]

I wrote a book. It's legal where I live. Somebody else distributed it in a byzantine country where free speech is restricted. Who's responsible? Me, or the citizen who broke the laws of their own country?

Re:The software was sold in the US

[flatrock]

That's assuming he had no knowledge that his employer was going to sell the software in the United States. If he knew that they were going to sell it there, or even had reason to suspect it because his employer sold there other products there, then he's responsible. Not only did he create the product, but he got paid for doing it. He even came to the US to tell people about it.

Re:The software was sold in the US

[flatrock]

That depends on if you sold them the books, knowing that they would distribute them where it's restricted. I just don't buy the defense that he had no idea that the software would be sold in the US. I doubt the version sold in the US had it's menu's in Russian. That doesn't mean that it wasn't intended for other english speaking people, but from my experience, if you're leading a software project, you know who it's target market is. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think assuming that he didn't know it would be sold in the US may not be reasonable. I'm sure it will be brought up in court, so we'll find out more soon.

Hell of a deal

[buss_error]

...When Russia has to tell it's citizens not to vist the United States because they might be thrown in jail for something they did in their own country. It's just too ironic.

No other case...

[Publicus]

"No other case has gotten this amount of attention," said Matthew Jacobs, a spokesman for the United States attorney for Northern California.


Not even the OJ Simpson case? Right!!!

If this guy is with the prosecutor maybe Dmitry will be ok after all.

Nope...

[Anonymous Coward]

...the problem with the DCMA is not in its enforcement, but rather in its very existence.

Kill it, and let the prior law, including the common law, govern.

Let's get a little perspective, shall we?

[ldopa1]

First of all, the "Justice" Department doesn't carry out justice. Our "Justice" system is based on the concept of Jurisprudence, which basically means that America has taken the stance that it is better to let someone go who actually did commit a crime rather than imprison (or kill!) someone who might not have. This is why we use the terms "Guilty" and "Not-Guilty" instead of "Guilty" and "Innocent."

"Not-Guilty" does not imply that the person did not actually commit a crime, just that the person does not fit the legal definition of "Guilty." That's exactly why O.J. Simpson is walking the street a free man today. They could not say that Orinthal J. Simpson murdered Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldmann beyond any reasonable doubt.

That said, even Sklyarov's arrest and imprisonment is definately against the grain. He is being treated at Guilty without a trial. He entered a plea of "Not-Guilty," because while he may have committed a crime, he and his legal team belive that he is not accountable to the law (under the law) for his actions. Specifically, they belive the DMCA is flawed and inherently unsupportable.

My personal view of this should be quite obvious. For clarification purposes, I think the law is asinine. I don't think anyone has pointed out to the Justice Department that everyone who has a Web Browser (nay, a text editor, for that matter) is violating the DMCA. Section 117 of the law gives no exception for that kind of technology. The law specifically states that any computer program capable of displaying copyrighted material against the rules of the copyright is illegal. It makes no provision for the level of protection afforded. It could be argued that HTML is a form of copyright protection (i.e. META tags) as it obscures the text of the material. Furthermore, it should be pointed out that all it takes to make a copyright is to say "copyright 2001" and it's legally binding.

From the perspective desk, think of this: I can legally obtain, sell, and distribute the components to make nitrogen tri-iodide (a highly unstable explosive, don't try this at home kids). All I need is to go to my local Osco Drug, buy some Iodine crystals, househole ammonia and coffee filters, and bingo, I've got a HIGHLY explosive chemical that requires no fuse mechanism other than a rock, BB or anything else that'll impart a kinetic shock to the material (including fingers). I cannot go to jail for that. However, I can be fined up to $500,000 and get 25 years in jail for writing:

"UNLOCK COPYRIGHTED MATERIALS FROM SUBMITTED DOCUMENT" as soon as I write the compiler for this new language. Note, it's not illegal to write the compiler, just the words above.

Of course, under the DMCA, slashdot will be guilty of violating the DMCA for distributing that code, and everyone reading this message will be guilty too. Just as soon as I write that compiler.....

WELL DUH

[Moridineas]

Given that programmers are about the only resource Russia can make any money off of now, is it any wonder that they don't want their programmers going to the US??

Scott

Re:WELL DUH

[Anonymous Coward]

only resource? think again. russia has a vast supply of natural resources, that if used to their full potential, would make russia one of the richest countries in the world.

Links to Elmsoft's spamware and spam tools

[13013dobbs]

http://www.mailutilities.com/aee/ - a web harvester

http://www.mailutilities.com/adr/ - 'Direct-to-MX' spamware

Can I pimp this report?

[eddy]

Many of the issues here are discussed in a recent report:

M. Skala. "New Media Copyright Extensions Would Harm Canada", Aug 2001

It is a long read for the weak, but it clear and to the point as to why "laws" such as the DMCA is a bad idea, giving a short history of copyright and a summary of recent events in the world of IP/DRM. I believe it can help people focus their arguments.

The powers of a jury (or Judge?)

[kjj]

I am not certain of that Sklyarov will have a jury trial but I would think that a jury or a judge would share many of the same guidelines for the determination of guilt. That being the case I would just like to point out this site. which outlines many of the powers that a jury has. Note this fourth bulleted item.

When they believe justice requires it, jurors can refuse to apply the law. Jurors have the power to consider whether the law itself is wrong (including whether it is "unconstitutional"), or is being applied for political reasons. Is the defendant being singled out as "an example" in order to demonstrate government muscle? Were the defendant's constitutional rights violated during the arrest? Much of today's "crime wave" consists of victimless crimes--crimes against the state, or "political crimes", so if you feel that a verdict of guilty would give the government too much power, or help keep a bad law alive, just remember that you can refuse to apply any law that violates your conscience.

By these guidelines I would say a jury (or judge) would be perfectly justified in declaring Dmitry not guilty.

close minded drone..

[Anonymous Coward]

i came up with a ford duplication machine that cloned my ford so i can drive to work with one and have the other for driving to the supermarket.
of course, ford wanted me to buy another one instead of duplicating the one i own so they sued me for intellectual property duplication.

see.. a car example is a bad idea.

The state of the US government

[Ulwarth]

I love the United States, I really do. I think a lot of the reason why it's such a great place to live has to do with the government. But more and more I'm starting to think that it's getting seriously out of sync with modern life that I wonder if we're not headed for catastrophe.

I'm part of a citizen's reform group that is working for change on an unrelated issue (website). But the things I see in the Skylov case are strangely similar to my group's fight: politicians that don't understand the trappings of modern life (in Skylov's case, technology), blindly make laws without consulting with what the people want, and then they afraid that they will look stupid if they back down on something they were obvious wrong about.

What they don't seem to realize is that they look even dumber for not acknowledging that a mistake was made, that they misunderstood the situation, and that there are situations that they failed to forsee which were not fairly covered under the legislation they created.

To a certain degree I hold the American people at fault for not being more proactively involved with their government, keeping a close eye on the things their representatives are doing. Hell, pretty much the whole purpose of the Neoteric website is to try to get people to contact their representatives. But I still think there's a failing to the entire system, something that is getting worse, and not better.

I think we need to find a new way of doing things, and fast. Technology, and society as a whole, are changing too fast for our current government (good as it has been for the last 200 years) to keep up. And a government out of sync with its people is a dangerous thing indeed.

Re:The state of the US government

[metachimp]

I agree, and if we're going to do it, we have to nip it in the bud, before it becomes entrenched like the War on Drugs, and then we won't be able to stop it.

Re:I have a few problems - Moron

[Vegeta99]

They aren't? Funny, they are. Without a license, in most states, it is illegal to own one.

Re:General note to anyone reading

[Anonymous Coward]

You are not under any obligation to defend _YOUR_ freedom neither..
stupid sheep!

I'm afraid

[Heph_Smith]

Am I the only one who is mortally afraid of living in a country/world where it is against the law to test and announce security flaws? Won't this not only limit the improvement of security and give people who first learn about a security vulnerability to exploit it to its fullest extent? Especially if the maker of the product does not feel forced to fix it when notified? (We all know cases where big corporations need a big push to spend money to fix a problem)

I would think that people who support these types of laws would fall under this list:

Companies (trying to save money and image at cost of quality)
People getting paid by big companies (bureaucrats + lobbyists)
Ignorant administrators (thinking it would help protect their insecure boxes from their lack of skills and attentiveness)
Ignorant masses

What else?

One Question

[NoMoreNicksLeft]

Is this even in our jurisdiction? My understanding is, that even though he wrote the code, that the actual "crime" would have been committed in Russia, where it is legal to do so. Therefore, we have no right to prosecute. The very most we could do, would be to pressure the russian goverment through political channels, if that.

Re:I have a few problems (I noticed)

[fobbman]

"Seems to me if Skylarov was only interested in promoting better security he wouldn't have tried to sell his product. This looks to me like someone trying to make a buck off an insecure product."

If it takes someone with a financial interest to stand up for our rights then so be it. I don't particularly care for Larry Flint but his fights for free speech affect all Americans from puritans to perverts.

"Instead of doing that, however, I decide to market and sell keys that can break into every Ford. Now, don't you see what's wrong with that? I could have taken the high road, but instead I tried to make a buck. This is pretty much what Dmitry did."

No he did not. He made it so that we could, to properly use your Ford analogy, loan the Ford to someone else to use for a period of time, or even sell our Ford to someone else whenever we want to without the vehicle needing to do a DNA test on the driver before it allows the owner to use it.

The only way we can adequately inform the uninformed about this travesty of justice is to have the correct information in the first place.

Original intent of Copyright

[Kismet]

Copyright was established for the purpose of protecting the creators from the bigger interests, such as publishers. If this were still the case, the DMCA would not be such a big issue on Slashdot.

In recent years, we have seen a complete reversal of this intent. Copyright is now wielded by corporations to in fact protect them from the original creators, and also from the general public. Artists and authors often only see a fraction of the of the revenues generated by their work.

The U.S. constitution was established for the purpose of protecting the people from tyranny. For example, there is a clause that guarantees the right to bear arms. Why is that in there? Well, in the event that the government should resort to tyranny, the people would then have a means of armed rebellion to restore popular rule. This was the mindset of colonial America. Obviously, that particular example is a little bit obsolete, but it illustrates an important point.

I think everyone will agree that authors and artists and the like should enjoy the benefits of their work. Thus, it could be argued that there is a place for Copyright. However, Copyright is a power that may be wielded tyranically. It is possible today for a company to restrict how, when and where a book is read, for instance. What would stop them from abusing this power?

The public needs a way to take back the power when it is evident that it has been abused, much like the colonials needed their right to bear arms lest their hard-earned freedom be wrenched from them again.

Until 1998, when the DMCA was legislated, the public had this power over Copyright. I believe that Copyright should still be enforced. Outlawing the means to thwart Copyright, however, is utterly unconstitutional. We are moving from a system in which we are punished for our acts to one in which we are punished for establishing our ability to commit the act. The next step in this progression is to criminalize thinking about our actions.

Bringing his family

[david_g]

As I'm not an american (and I never travelled outside my country) I don't know what's involved but, how hard is it to bring his family to the US while he is there? Didn't Adobe start all this? The very least they could do was to bring his family for a while so he can see them and they can see him.

Re:Bringing his family

[Silver222]

No kidding you've never travelled outside your country. Have you ever tried to talk to an INS officer? It's like talking to the Gestapo when you've got 20 Jew or Gypsies or Russians or Homosexuals in your attic.

Not a pleasant experience.

This is how it works

[Planesdragon]

Freedom and Democracy are not things that exist naturally in the wild. Like any other faucet of civilization, they require a certain level of institutions and traditions to floursih.

In the United States, we use our republic's democratically elected government to balance the freedoms of the many against the freedoms of the few. Somtimes, as with the DMCA, we mess up--but the fact is that we CAN mess up, and the system self-corrects us.

Yes, it's horrible that a Russian programmer was the first one nabbed under the DMCA. But if it wasn't him, it would have been someone else--and, until his trial is over, I'm wiling to give the courts the chance to fix the law that's gone to far.

The Courts fixed seperation in schools, line-item veto, and the legislature's scam against cannabis importation. They're a check on the other two branches, and I'm willing to let them have a crack at it before I'm "embarassed."

As for the jusisdictional part--the US would arrest a drug dealer from Columbia, a terrorist from Iraq, or a child pornographer from China. While the DMCA doesn't rise to the level of any of those crimes, it *IS* a crime, and the other three should be treated at least as well as a DMCA violator.

Re:This is how it works

[dillon_rinker]

the US would arrest a drug dealer from Columbia, a terrorist from Iraq, or a child pornographer from China

Those are some really loaded words. "Drug dealing" is outlawed in Colombia (due to US efforts). Terrorism in Iraq is illegal (blow up a building there and see what happens). I don't know, but I would hope that taking pictures of children in sexual positions is just as bad in China as it is in the US.

HOWEVER...the Russian programmer under discussion didn't violate Russian law; he violated US law. Consider the following...

If a Colombian pharmacist dispensed morphine to a patient, but didn't follow US regulations, would we arrest him when he came to the US? If a Colombian storekeeper gave drugs to children, drugs which in the US require a prescription but which in Colombia don't, would we arrest him?

If an Iraqi soldier fired a missile at a US jet, would we arrest that soldier when he came to the US? More likely we would give him asylum. If an Iraqi citizen blew up an Iraqi building, we'd likely give him a medal when he came here. If an Iraqi citizen blew up a US building, he'd be on US soil, violating US law...of course we'd arrest him.

If a hypothetical Chinese photographer took pictures of babies without their clothes on because of a hypothetical custom of doing so to represent the babies' purity, should the photographer be arrested? If a hypothetical 19-year-old man married a hypothetical 14-year-old girl, with her consent, (because of a hypothetical tradition of fertile young women marrying virile young-but-older men), and if he took explicit pictures of her, for their own use and enjoyment, and if he behaved toward her as a man should behave toward his wife, would we arrest the man when he came to the US?

If someone drives faster than 70 mph (the fastest legal speed in my state) on a Montana highway, can my state highway patrol arrest them? If I drive with a blood alcohol level of .08 (not illegal in my state), can your state police arrest me because it's illegal in their state? What if I wait until I'm sober, drive to your state, and then talk about driving almost-drunk in my state?

My point is simply that if something is NOT morally wrong (whatever that means to you), and if it is NOT illegal for a foreigner in their own land, and if NO ONE (except corporate attorneys) understands exactly what behavior constitutes a crime, then is it right to arrest foreigners for acts committed in their homeland, when they've violated no laws on US soil?

Re:This is how it works

[Planesdragon]

Those are some really loaded words. "Drug dealing" is outlawed in Colombia (due to US efforts). Terrorism in Iraq is illegal (blow up a building there and see what happens). I don't know, but I would hope that taking pictures of children in sexual positions is just as bad in China as it is in the US.

Ok, so my examples weren't the best--but you do see the principle. When we arrest a drug dealer, a terrorist, or a peophile, we prosecute them under *our* laws, not the laws of their native country. When someone commits an act that affects the United States of America, and we have a law against just that act affecting us, we prosecute them. If the legislature's gone to far, the courts rule the new law unconstitutional and it's not a law any longer.

IANAL, of course, but here are my considerations of the points you made.

If a Colombian pharmacist dispensed morphine to a patient, but didn't follow US regulations, would we arrest him when he came to the US? If a Colombian storekeeper gave drugs to children, drugs which in the US require a prescription but which in Colombia don't, would we arrest him?

If they were US citizens, and we had a law against such behavior, yes. Especially if they came to the US and talked about it.

If an Iraqi citizen blew up a US building, he'd be on US soil, violating US law...of course we'd arrest him.

What if the Iraqi launched a missle from an Iraqi street against the US Embassy? He's on Iraqi soil, after all. Does that mean we can't touch him?

If any act can cause the government to hold someone (citizen or not) liable for what they do outside of the country, then the government can hold people liable for what they do outside of the country.

If a hypothetical Chinese photographer took pictures of babies without their clothes on because of a hypothetical custom of doing so to represent the babies' purity, should the photographer be arrested?

You can do that in the US, and it's not Child Pornography. If it's a picture of a sexually explicit pose of a child, you can't say "but children are so pure" and try to get away with it.

Nudity != pornography

If a hypothetical 19-year-old man married a hypothetical 14-year-old girl, with her consent, (because of a hypothetical tradition of fertile young women marrying virile young-but-older men), and if he took explicit pictures of her, for their own use and enjoyment, and if he behaved toward her as a man should behave toward his wife, would we arrest the man when he came to the US?,

Good bloody question. We might, and he could probably get out on appeal if we did.

A 19 year old CAN marry a 14 year old, even in the US. They might even be able to conjugate without violating NY's stautory rape laws.

If someone drives faster than 70 mph (the fastest legal speed in my state) on a Montana highway, can my state highway patrol arrest them?

Sure. The Highway patrol can arrest them for reckless driving, speeding, and potentially even harassing an officer ("obstruction of justice.") The police could arrest me right now for the murder of someone in Buffalo. The charges won't stick, but they can certainly charge me with the crime. If they're malice involved, I have recourse to sue them--which is a check that keeps them from arresting me just for the fun of it.

If I drive with a blood alcohol level of .08 (not illegal in my state), can your state police arrest me because it's illegal in their state?

Of course not. The NY law (which is, IIRC, .10 anyway) only applies to NY roads.

If a child with a BAB of .05 drove in a state where that was not illegal, but their home state's DMV revoked the license of any child driving with any BAB, the child would, hypothetically, lose their driver's license.

What if I wait until I'm sober, drive to your state, and then talk about driving almost-drunk in my state?

Unless there is a law against it, you've committed no crime.

The Age of Consent in NY is 17, but because the Statutory Rape law doesn't forbid a 16 year old and an 18 year old from getting it on, it's not a crime.

My point is simply that if something is NOT morally wrong (whatever that means to you), and if it is NOT illegal for a foreigner in their own land, and if NO ONE (except corporate attorneys) understands exactly what behavior constitutes a crime, then is it right to arrest foreigners for acts committed in their homeland, when they've violated no laws on US soil?

That's a loaded question.

No, it's not right for the law to hold someone to a wrong that is only a legal wrong, and not a clear ethical wrong when they have no way of reasonably knowing that the law will be applied to them.

However, it is right for the officers of the law to enforce it as it is written. That's doing their job, and they should be fired if they don't. Selective negligence to encourage following of the law is one thing; ignoring the law alltogether is something else.

Re:General note to anyone reading

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey fuck you. I just don't think that anything copy-protected is valuable enough to unencrypt without the author's permission. If anyone wants to ferret away information, that's their (and my) FREEDOM to do so. My vision of a free future is one where I can be secure in my papers. The point of free information movement is that we'll make our own information and it'll be twice as good as the non-free stuff. The point is /not/ to impose our ethics onto others just because we have the technology.

America once again thinks it controls the world

[Anonymous Coward]

If American's can prosecute visitors who do stuff legally in their own country that would be illegal in the USA I think other countries should do this too.

This means those American's:

1. Owning handguns will now be arrested on entry to the UK regardless of whether they have a gun on them at the time

2. Who do not practice Islams will be arrested on entry to Saudi Arabia

The list could go on.

I'd also advise any Dutch people who may have legally smoked pot not to enter the USA as you're logically as much a target.

[)

Re:America once again thinks it controls the world

[fishbowl]

>I'd also advise any Dutch people who may have
>legally smoked pot not to enter the USA as
>you're logically as much a target.

Not as far fetched as you might think. Smoke pot legally in Holland or anywhere else where it's legal, and get on a plane to Reno NV. Nevada, where it's against the law to be under the influence of MJ, could prosecute you on the
basis of a drug test weeks afterwards.

my analogy

[underwhelm]

Imagine driving on the freeway at 65 mph, and getting pulled over because the speed limit in the alley behind your house is 10 mph.

This concept used to be called jurisdiction--that a law has certain an area of geographical effect beyond which it doesn't apply. The 10 mph limit is only in effect on streets designated as 10 mph zones. Apparently the IP Patrol of the US feels it can enforce it's 10 mph limit on other country's freeways.

What we're learning (that military types always knew) is that a law's jurisdiction has nothing to do with it's claimed geographical borders, and everything to do with sheer ability to enforce the law. All the explicit and implicit limitations on laws stand only until a more powerful will chooses to ignore them. To say that the 10 mph limit only applies to the alleyway is just an empty promise, not a physical certainty. If an enforcement body chooses to enforce the laws of one jurisdiction on another, only political or physical resistance would stop them.

The light side of the DMCA ....

[PCHell]

While I hate the DMCA, I admit that in certain areas it might serve a good purpose...

There are thousands of warez sites right now, distributing game cracks and justifying it as "Educational Purposes". The DMCA will end this for good (if its not knocked off as inconstitutional)

Don

[bridgette]

Unfortunately, a plea of not guilty will not lead to a legal examination of the DMCA either, at least not directly. The court's duty is to enforce the existing law, not to ratify or amend it. As I understand American law, the judge is not at liberty to simply say, "Well, this law is clearly unfair. Therefore we'll just have to release Mr. Skylarov." His only duty is to determine whether or not Skylarov violated the DMCA, and issue an appropriate sentence.

Perhaps the judge can't just proclaim the law as unfair and

Interesting Quote

[avalys]

From the article on yahoo -
"Sklyarov, 26, spent 21 days in prison before being freed on bail amid noisy protests by advocates of free speech and other supporters. He pleaded not guilty." (my emphasis)

I wasn't aware that the U.S needed any advocates of free speech.

Re:Interesting Quote

[JohnnyBolla]

Then, my brother, you have not been paying attention.

Is it the country or the corporations?

[WyldOne]

IMHO, it's the corporations that have too much power. They use their money as power and hire fleets of lawers to trick and confuse the judges. Take the Microsoft monopoly case for instance. They dragged out that case, and are still doing so. Diverting the issues away from the real problems at hand. (As someone mentioned the bootloader issues)

DeCSS got more attention

[HenryFool]

I assume Jacobs is referring to DMCA cases. The 2600 v MPAA DeCSS case got tons of attention last year, probably more than Skylarov's. It was all over the New York Times. This guy Jacobs is probably just out of touch, as one would expect from a US attorney spokesperson.

Don't blow off jury duty!!!!

[bridgette]

Unfortunately, a plea of not guilty will not lead to a legal examination of the DMCA either, at least not directly. The court's duty is to enforce the existing law, not to ratify or amend it. As I understand American law, the judge is not at liberty to simply say, "Well, this law is clearly unfair. Therefore we'll just have to release Mr. Skylarov." His only duty is to determine whether or not Skylarov violated the DMCA, and issue an appropriate sentence.

Perhaps the judge can't just proclaim the law as unfair and set Skylarov free, but the jury can refuse to convict him for any reason - even if they just don't like the law in question. If the trial is in Frisco, then there's a good chance that there will be some geeks on the jury (especially since there are so many out of work geeks there these days)

http://www.erowid.org/freedom/jury_nullification /j ury_nullification.shtml
http://www.fija.org/
http://civilliberty.about.com/cs/jurynullificati on /

(please disreagard the previous psudo post, I accidentally hit return when the focus was on the "Submit" button)

Re:Don't blow off jury duty!!!!

[vsync64]

If the trial is in Frisco, then there's a good chance that there will be some geeks on the jury (especially since there are so many out of work geeks there these days)

Actually there will probably be no geeks at all. The lawyers will ask everyone if they have any computer experience and dismiss those people as "prejudiced". Additionally, lawyers tend to dislike people with technical and/or logical experience, because they can't use emotional manipulation which would be easily seen through. The idea of "a jury of your peers" is a sad joke.

You're very wrong

[Gorimek]

So how do you explain that democracy only ever appears in capitalist societies??

I don't deny the growing corporatist problems in the US, but remember that a country run by corporations is not capitalist, it's fascist.

Study history. Don't believe all the cool charismatic rebellious people tell you. Nor, for that matter, whining old men like me.

Re:You're very wrong

[guygee]

I think it is your precedence that has a problem. Democracy preceded capitalism, which in turn preceded corporations.

Re:You're very wrong

[guygee]

BTW, one of the best readings I have found on this topic is "The Great Transformation" by Karl Polyani. Polyani provides extensive documentation and exposition for the development of today's market economies over the last two centuries. In particular, he points out the tremendous amount of effort spent on social engineering to accomplish the commodification of land, labor and capital. The market economy is a very modern feature of human existence, put into place only with a great deal of social dislocation and cultural destruction over the past 200 years.

Re:You're very wrong

[hearingaid]

how bizarre.

democracy dates back a long time before capitalism. we could go back to ancient athens. you might not think of that as democratic though. we could go to tenth-century iceland. (iceland, where they still haven't bothered with capitalism. they did get democracy, back, though. capitalism. what a crazy idea. :)

capitalism also dates back before democracy. that is, unless you think of early nineteenth-century Britain, the birthplace of capitalism, as democratic. I'm unsure as to whether I'd call it democratic now. never mind before 1832.

fascism is also not rule by corporations. that's what we call feudalism. (our modern feudal lords use intellectual property rights instead of land rights. both are fictions of the law.) fascism is rule by gangs: it was named after the fascisti, and a key component of Nazism as well as the Mussolini and Franco regimes was the gangs of thugs who kept people in line.

Re:You're very wrong

[Gorimek]

Well, it comes down to how you define all these terms. With my definitions, my statement is right. With yours, it's probbaly not.

Still there is a reality behind what I'm saying, regardless of what terms you use. Mass democracy is only found in free market based economies. The (more or less) free markets come first, followed by an economic upswing that builds a (more or less) prosperous middle class that can't be bossed around anymore, and then democrazy follows, after some more or less wild disturbances. I expect China to go that way within 10-20 years. I'm hoping for "less wild", but I'm not too confident.

Athens was a democracy for the small minority of non slave males. I don't really know about their economy, but it was hardly a centrally planned one.

I don't know what you heard about Iceland, but it's is a perfectly normal western capitalist welfare state. Back in the day, it was more anarchist than democratic, due to the lack of a state, among other intriguing features. See http://www.hi.is/~bthru/friedman.htm

Feudalism has nothing to do with corporations. It's about kings and local lords and owning the peasants in exchange for providing defense. Mussolinis big invention (after his time as a socialist) was the corporatist state.

All states need gangs of thugs to keep people in line.

I could argue all day, but there is nobody reading this except us this late anyway, so why bother.

"Effectively" doesn't mean what you think it does

[Noel]

[IANAL]

I keep seeing this argument that if the TPM is easily broken, then it's not effective, so the DMCA doesn't apply. I'm sorry, but as much as I would wish that to be true, it doesn't appear to be. In 1201(a)(3)(b), the DMCA clearly defines its meaning:

a technological measure "effectively controls access to a work" if the measure, in the ordinary course of its operation, requires the application of information, or a process or a treatment, with the authority of the copyright owner, to gain access to the work.

In other words, the question is not whether the TPM provides adequate protection against unauthorized access, but whether it has the effect of controlling access when it is used as intended by the copyright owner. Circumventing the TPM is not the "ordinary course of operation", so it doesn't matter how easy it is to crack the encryption.

Sorry, but this looks horribly well written. It gives the copyright owner the unquestioned right to put in place any mechanism that controls access in any way to the intellectual property, whether or not that control is granted by copyright law. That's the worst part of this law. It allows the copyright owner to extend the arenas of access control in any way they wish (region codes, forced ads, licensed hardware, etc.), and makes it a federal offense to go against the wishes of the copyright owner.

<rant>Every time I read this, it nauseates me to think that laws like this can be passed unanimously in this supposedly "free" country.</rant>

What happened?

[Anonymous Coward]

Below is a clip from something I hope most of you have read before. Please read it through again in light of the events around you today. What would our founding fathers think of our present situation? Yes, it is not the constitution, but rather the paper that started the U.S. off. It's funny how far we have come in only a little over 200 years...

IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.

Speaking of liability

[alsta]

I saw a banner ad for a Cable TV descrambling device so that you can watch HBO for free. These devices are PERFECTLY LEGAL to sell in most states, if not all. They are also PERFECTLY LEGAL to purchase in most states, if not all. But once you start using it with the intent of watching pay channels for free, it stops being legal.

So in essence Dmitry could have come here to the U.S and sold the program to anybody who wanted to buy it. Legally. It is when somebody starts using it with the intent of redistributing the illegalities start to kick in.

But the reason Dmitry can be found guilty of a crime and the producer/distributor of the Cable TV descrambler can't, is that there is a law called the DMCA which protects Big Business(tm).

Alex

It's not about improving security

[gotih]

There is a legitimate market for Dmitri's software -- people who have purchased ebooks and wish to have the book on more than one computer. Dmitri's product was intended to help those people. the fact that adobe wrote poor software only allowed him to accomplish this.

If Ford actually made locks so poorly that you could create a key that opened all Fords I'm sure you could create and market it as a "Universal Replacement Key" for all Fords. sure, Ford would try to stop you but it would certainly be thier fault that they created a faulty lock.

In fact there is a product designed to unlock nearly all cars - the Slim Jim. If you're cheap, use a bent coat hangar. When I lock my keys in my car (quite often) I can have my Honda CRX door open in less than a minute with a coat hangar. Should coat hangar manufactures and other medium diameter steel rod manufactures be sued because thier product doesn't discriminate between legitimate fools (myself) and criminals and can be used for "evil?"

Had adobe created a system where users could, for a small fee and with some identification (CreditCardNo), purchase the right to move the an ebook from one computer to another perhaps this would not have happened. however, i would have a problem with that system.

At question here is whether or not a person working in the digital world has the same rights as someone in the analog world. I say yes (as would Thomas Jefferson), DCMA says no.

on another note...

[Kraft]

(offtopic, but pretty funny)

A friend of mine got on a plane in South America, which was heading towards Europe. With him, he brought a nice big space-cake (=hash cake), knowing that the customs/police wouldn't check anything until he landed. While in air he ate the sucker and had one hell of a flight home.

Martin Luther King's take on the DMCA

[goingware]

One has a moral obligation to disobey unjust laws..
-- Martin Luther King

In more detail - the Supreme Court does not render advisory opinions. That is, you cannot simply ask the court to judge whether a law is constitutional or not. To have a law declared unconstitutional, one must actually violate the law and pursue one's defense to the highest court in the land.

The benefit of having unjust laws struck down by the Supreme Court comes at the cost of risking one's freedom if one's attempt proves unsuccessful - or even one's life, in the event the law in question provides for capital punishment.

I wonder, I hope the DoJ is doing this because...

[Aexia]

They're oppose DMCA.

I mean, what other way is there to get rid of DMCA right now? Have Congress repeal it? Yeah right.

OTOH, if he were convicted and the convicted was overturned on grounds that the DMCA was unconstitutional, that'd be good...

Maybe that explains why DoJ is so headstrong on "convicting" an easily popularized guy? They know the case will eventually lose and they want it to because that's the only way to get rid of it.

Of course, it's inconvienent for Dmitri, but then again, someone's gotta be the martyr and it might as well be someone who isn't an American.

Note to G.W. Bush's handlers..

[jcr]

The *smart* thing to do, is pardon Sklyarov.

That way, your corporate masters get to keep this blatantly unconstitutional bludgeon around to threaten anyone else who seeks to expose their incompetence. The longer you keep the DMCA out of court, the more damage it can do to the constitution your sock-puppet took an oath to uphold.

-jcr

Jury Nullification

[Anonymous Coward]

Even where the law is wrong it must be obeyed

Our founding fathers disagreed with you. In
the United States legal system there is a principle called Juror
Nullification , whereby if a jury finds a defendant innocent of any
genuine wrongdoing, they can declare them nonguilty, even if they have
in fact broken the letter of the law beyond any reasonable doubt.

-- Guges --

Reply to Senator Feinstein's DMCA form letter

[snogwozzle]

Senator Feinstein sent me a form response (see below) to my DMCA letter, and I find it unsatisfactory in the extreme. So I sat down to write her back, and thought some of you might find the result worth reading.

Dear Senator Feinstein,

First, thank you for considering the Digital Millennium Copyright Act issue important enough to develop a response for it.

When I first wrote you, I implored you to become active in seeking appropriate adjustments to address the worst excesses of the DMCA. I am sorry to say that I have been hoping for a more substantial reply than the one I received.

Yes, everyone agrees that a digital economy requires legal protections. But in any effort there is always the question of how much is enough, how much is too much, and what is lost by doing too much. News developments since I first wrote you make it more and more clear every day that the DMCA went too far, and, now that criminal enforcement has begun, that it is beginning to trounce the legitimate activity and normal relations of the technology ecosystem, is chilling public speech, and is distorting markets. Russian grad student Dmitry Sklyarov is facing 25 years in a US prison, plus a $2.5 million fine for writing a computer program in another country. I'm sure you're aware that today the Russian government issued a warning to Russian computer technologists that they should not travel to the US because they risk imprisonment! Encryption researchers have begun to resort to anonymity when publishing their results, even in other countries. The situation is quite drastic, global in scope, and I must say requires closer examination and more action than your reply would indicate you plan to take.

The constitutional copyright mandate is for Congress to provide laws to ensure adequate compensation for creators to bring new works forth -- not to guarantee every possible compensation for every imaginable use of every copy of every work. You analogize intellectual property rights to physical property rights, but any copyright scholar will tell you that intellectual property rights have never entailed the same kind of rights as physical property rights, and for good public policy reasons (see for example the writings of Jefferson). I should be able to listen to the CDs I buy on my computer and in my car without paying again. I should be able to watch a DVD I buy in England when I get home without paying again. I should be able to watch a DVD I buy on my computer, even if it's a Linux computer without a CSS player. I should be able to back up my e-books without having to pay again. When the DMCA went too far, I lost those rights. I also lost my ability to protect myself against the objectionable practices of the copyright industries, whose interests are, after all, different from mine as a consumer. If I were to try to regain my rights, simply by using my ordinary computer industry skills, I could go to prison for 5 years per each copied item. This is not piracy. This is not bootlegging. This is not mass duplication. Let those stay illegal. This is basic consumer rights.

To my mind, the most egregious aspect of the DMCA is that by criminalizing the circumvention of access control technologies even for media that the consumer has bought and paid for (and no matter how flimsy the protection), the Act requires the American people's own government to act against them, as enforcer of the copyright industries' purely self-serving business initiative to get them to pay for every movie, program, song, and book over and over and over again -- ultimately, to pay for every single access. Imagine your home library with a coin-operated lock on every book. That is our future if the DMCA is not amended.

So I respectfully ask you again, at a minimum, to clarify your position as to whether you will help to adjust the areas where the DMCA is clearly excessive, or whether you will oppose such efforts. I would like to think that you can appreciate the gravity of the situation, and the depth of the discontent of your technically-minded constituents, and will act in the people's interest.

In considering this question, please don't accept at face value the copyright industry's self-serving assertion that only perfect protection will prevent economic collapse in movies, music, publishing, and software. In the DMCA, America traded away the rights of consumers and the free speech rights of technologists in order to achieve a 'perfect protection' scenario by inventing draconian criminal penalties for otherwise ordinary and accepted activities. But cryptographers know very well that perfect protection is impossible, and always a red herring. 'Pretty Good Protection' -- meaning relying on ordinary civil copyright protection, and reserving draconian criminal penalties only for those who mass-distribute copies that could replace sales -- is good enough to keep the copyright industries in business, and just as profitable as they have been, without requiring us to trounce consumer rights and throw our brightest programmers and researchers into prison.

I know that the studio heads in Hollywood are your constituents, but please keep in mind that you also represent the young technologists who work in Silicon Valley. Please, reconsider adjusting the anti-circumvention aspects of the DMCA.

Sincerely,
--- Snogwozzle
Bay Area, California

Dear Mr. Snogwozzle:

Thank you for writing to me about the Digital Millennium
Copyright Act.

I have always believed that the protection of intellectual
property rights is as important as the protection of any other
property right. Moreover, the protection of intellectual property is
vital to a flourishing economy -- particularly in California.
America's music, movie, and software industries are second to
none, and we export far more intellectual property than we import.
This is good for employment, and good for consumers.

Without strong copyright protections, the incentive to
innovate would be diminished. In fact, this issue was so important
to the Founding Fathers that the ability of Congress to protect
copyrights is actually written into our Constitution itself.

The Digital Millennium Copyright Act was Congress'
attempt to address the issue of copyright protection in a new,
digital age. As new technologies have developed over the past few
years, it has become increasingly difficult to protect intellectual
property from illegal copying and distribution. It is a delicate
balance, to be sure -- nobody wants to restrict the development of
new and exciting technologies, but we must work to prevent the
creation of perfect, digital copies of copyrighted works which can
be illegally distributed throughout the world.

Please be assured that I understand your concerns, and I
will keep your views in mind.

If you have other questions or comments, please do not
hesitate to write to me again, or contact my Washington, D.C. staff
at (202) 224-3841.

Sincerely yours,

Dianne Feinstein
United States Senator

Re:Reply to Senator Feinstein's DMCA form letter

[Natalie's Hot Grits]

Do you mind if i use this letter for my senators, etc.? If you dont want me to copy it, i won't, but it is very nice, and i will post any revisions i make to it if it pleases you. I will probably turn it into a more general letter. (ie, not a reply to what my senator said to me)

what do you say?

thanks.

Thanks to all

[Pinball Wizard]

who replied to my comment. After reading through all the comments it is clear to me that I made a really bad analogy.

A better one might be that if replicators of physical objects existed, we would likely see restrictions on what objects we could copy. And, someone who provided a way to defeat those restrictions would probably face jail time.

I don't think Skylarov belongs in jail. However, I think that people who create digital things like software or music should be able to limit the amount of free copying that happens to their creation. In my opinion the only real way of doing that is to build a culture of respect - respect for the authors of software, music, movies, etc. Its likely that NO lock, encryption method or other security device is 100% secure. Therefore the only way to really have things be secure is if the vast majority of people respect laws and copyrights.

If the vast majority of people do not respect the law, then we have a serious problem. I'm not talking about unjust laws like the DMCA. I'm talking about the copyright laws that get broken every day by people who wouldn't even consider shoplifting. We have to build a culture of trust and respect, or else we may have to watch our digital society be replaced by something far more draconian.

Re:Thanks to all

[Anonymous Coward]

Russian Foreign Office issued a warning to all programmers working with US companies that they can be jailed in US irellevant to their respect of home law because of DMCA.

http://www.nns.ru/chronicle

I wrote Diane Feinstein a letter about the DMCA

[Anonymous Coward]

And this is what I got back from her. She's truly clueless as to what fair use is let alone it's value in in our society. My comments to hers are in () AND CAPS

Dear Mr. Pxxxxxx:

Thank you for writing to me about the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. I have always believed that the protection of intellectual
property rights is as important as the protection of any other property right (AND THE HELL WITH THE RIGHT OF INDIVIDUALS' FREE SPEECH). Moreover, the protection of intellectual property is
vital to a flourishing economy -- particularly in California. America's music, movie, and software industries are second to none, and we export far more intellectual property than we import.
This is good for employment, and good for consumers (SO YOU SHOULD BE HAPPY TO GIVE UP YOUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS TO HAVE A JOB!). Without strong copyright protections, the incentive to innovate would be diminished (AND CORPORATIONS WOULD GIVE ME LESS CAMPAIGN $$$). In fact, this issue was so important to the Founding Fathers that the ability of Congress to protect copyrights is actually written into our Constitution itself (ALONG WITH THE RIGHTS OF FREE SPEECH AND EXPRESSION, DIANE).
The Digital Millennium Copyright Act was Congress' attempt to address the issue of copyright protection in a new, digital age.
As new technologies have developed over the past few years, it has become increasingly difficult to protect intellectual property from illegal copying and distribution. It is a delicate
balance, to be sure -- nobody wants to restrict the development of new and exciting technologies, but we must work to prevent the creation of perfect, digital copies of copyrighted works which can be illegally distributed throughout the world (AND IF WE HAVE TO BLOW AWAY THE RIGHT OF FAIR USE AND WE HAVE TO PUT PEOPLE IN JAIL BECAUSE THEY WANTTO FREELY EXPRESS THEIR OPINIONS, SO BE IT). Please be assured that I understand your concerns, and I will keep your views in mind (BUT DON'T EXPECT ME TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT THEM, 'CAUSE HOLLYWOOD PAYS MY FREIGHT!).
If you have other questions or comments, please do not hesitate to write to me again, or contact my Washington, D.C. staff at (202) 224-3841.

Sincerely yours,

Dianne Feinstein
United States Senator

http://feinstein.senate.gov

(PRETTY PATHETIC, HUH)

I find it very ironic that....

[Anonymous Coward]

The Russian foreign ministry has warned Russian programmers to stay out of the U.S. because of their laws oppressively limiting free speech!

``We want to point out to all Russian specialists cooperating with U.S. firms in computer programming and software design that, whatever the outcome of Sklyarov's case, they may fall under the jurisdiction of the 1998 Act on the territory of the United States,'' the Foreign Ministry said in a statement

Wasn't Russia formerly the place where people could be put in jail without being charged with a crime? Isn't the U.S. supposed to be the only place where one can express an opinion without being jailed for it?
Is it me or is this a total reversal of the past?

Re:I find it very ironic that....

[jedwards]

Isn't the U.S. supposed to be the only place where one can express an opinion without being jailed for it?

No. There are plenty of places where there is freedom of speech ... the US didn't invent freedom you know!

Parasitic Open Source

[nytes]

What would happen if Open Source developers added a use-restricted clause to their software. i.e. a clause that states that "this software can not be used for the monitoring or enforcement of intellectual property."

Furthermore, ISP's must notify their users of this in the terms of use.

Violators are subject to fines of $10K (per violation) or double the damages recovered in any IP suit.

Microsoft and others set similar restrictions on their software. (e.g. Visual C++ can't be used to develope an OS.)

Of course, since people are now considered guilty until proven innocent, you could probably have companies like Rangerinc shut down with little more than suspicion that they 'might' have used Open Source software. After all, some of their traffic probably routed through a Linux machine, right? You could certainly drag them into court and make them detail all the software they use. Then maybe seize a few computers for random inspection.

Defense fund

[Omnivorous Cowbird]

From the Elcomsoft press release:

Those interested in contributing to Sklyarov's defense fund should make donations by wire to:

First Union National Bank
Philadelphia, PA
ABA #031201467
Account #: 2000104359781
Account Name: Duane, Morris & Heckscher LLP
Escrow Account

Contributors MUST reference "The Dmitri Defense Fund - R0247-2" on all incoming wires.

Donations by Check should be sent to the following address:

The Dmitri Defense Fund
c/o Duane, Morris & Heckscher LLP
100 Spear Street, Suite 1500
San Francisco, California 94105
USA

Checks must be payable to "DMH Escrow Agent for Dmitri Defense Fund."

Just in case anybody didn't read the article...

Thank you.

[Anonymous Coward]

I would have liked, however, to replace some of those "i"'s with bars, but unfortunately doing so manages to trip the lameness filter (at least it did when I composed the image; the filter seems to be changing daily).

Adobe must be held responsible

[Anonymous Coward]

Adobe instigated this prosecution and must be held responsible for the consequences of their actions. Adobe should fund the defense and appear as defense witnesses. Adobe should grant full authorization to Skylarov and Elcomsoft, retroactively. If they do not fulfill these basic duties, Adobe must be held responsible for the consequences to Skylarov, his family, and Elcomsoft, a tooth for a tooth, an eye for an eye, and a life for a life.

Please, people, comment on feinsteins reply.

[nyet]

If there are any good comments on this, I will personally compile them and send her a response letter.

Some hints on various places to attack:

I have always believed that the protection of intellectual
property rights is as important as the protection of any other
property right. Moreover, the protection of intellectual property is
vital to a flourishing economy -- particularly in California.
America's music, movie, and software industries are second to
none, and we export far more intellectual property than we import.
This is good for employment, and good for consumers.

This paragraph is Feinstein basically saying that $$$ is more important than her constituents freedom. While this comes as no surprise, don't you think its interesting that she has enough cahones to actually come out and say it?

Without strong copyright protections, the incentive to
innovate would be diminished. In fact, this issue was so important
to the Founding Fathers that the ability of Congress to protect
copyrights is actually written into our Constitution itself.


This completely ignores T. Jefferson's many misgivings over IP law (do a search on google, this is quoted plenty by others quite a bit). Not only that, but the wording in the Constitution itself is VERY weak. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say that Corporations' monetary interests should be protected at all costs with PERMANENT monopoly status (see also Congress' affection for extending copyright/patent durations every few years)


but we must work to prevent the
creation of perfect, digital copies of copyrighted works which can
be illegally distributed throughout the world

This illuminates a fundamental flaw in her understanding of information theory. Bits are bits. They are by definition "perfectly copiable" No amount of wrangling is going to prevent them from being copyable. The only thing that will prevent copying of bits like this is a complete police state, which she seems to think is a small price to pay to protect the California entertainment industry's enormous profits.

A Response from Russia - translation

[VP]

Translation of the Russian Foreign Ministry announcement:

DECLARATION BY THE OFFICIAL REPRESENTATIVE OF THE FOREIGN MINISTRY OF RUSSIA
Regarding the trial of the Russian programmer D. Sklyarov, arrested in the USA

We carefully follow the developments of the trial of the Russian programmer Dmitriy Sklyarov, who was arrested in the USA based on the "Digital Millennium Copyright Act". This is the first application of this law in practice. Passed in 1998, it brings opposing reactions from lawyers, incuding those in the US, many of whom think that the law infringes on the consumer's rights of transmission of digital data(*).

The first trial meeting took place on August 30 this year, in San Jose, CA, where D. Sklyarov was charged on several counts, which may result in up to 25 years jail time. At the meeting D. Sklyarov entered a plea of not guilty. His lawyers believe the charges are unsubstantiated and they plan to prove that the arrest was a violation of the Russian citizen's free speech rights.

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Russia, and its offices abroad keep in constant touch with the American authorities, the defendant, and his lawyers.

We would like to point out to all Russian professionals, who cooperate with American companies in the areas of computer software and programming, that regardless of the outcome of D. Sklyarov's trial, the Act of 1998 may be applicable to them on US teritory.

August 31, 2001

(*)I believe this is supposed to mean "Fair Use rights" but I chose to translate it literaly.

Commentary: I don't know how native Russian speakers would interpret the original (I am not one), but this sounds more like a warning to the Russian programmers not to violate the DMCA unless they want to be charged when/if they go to the US, rather than suggesting they should not go to the US. Maybe I am overreacting, but I see this as an indication that the DMCA is actually very close in spirit to the Communist laws of the Soviet past - so close that the Russian government is finding it understandable.

/. is a NYTimes subsiduary

[Anonymous Coward]

Why dont you stop linking to NYTimes, im sure there are otehr *GOOD* sources of information around.

accountability and responsibility for the DMCA

[hyrdra]

What should happen, is if the jurors find Sklyarov not guilty due to the DMCA being unjust, we should seek punishment of the senators who passed this law. They should be made accountable for it. After all -- they said it was legal and worth passing in the first place.

Strange

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems to me that the US companies that provided the website and handled the payments and the five Americans who purchased the program are clearly in violation of the DMCA. Why aren't they being prosecuted?

Details???

[dachshund]

If he'd broken the law while he was in the country, then you'd be absolutely right. However, he's actually charged with creating the software. Nobody claims he did this inside of the USA's borders-- even the FBI stipulates that he did it in Russia. So if he's not charged with breaking any US laws while inside of the US, then why is he in jail??

YHBT. YHL. HAND.

[Anonymous Coward]

Christ, this guy was featured on the Troll edition of America's Most Wanted. BTW, the *BSD is dying guy is still on the loose.

OK, I'll bite...

[Anonymous Coward]

What does your sig mean?

I found nothing on Google.

Is this the same Elcomsoft that makes spam engines

[Anonymous Coward]

I fell very sorry for mr Skylarov but it seems he works for Elcomsoft. Is this the same Elcomsoft that makes spam engines that don't take a 5xx reply for NO when used by spammers?

If so it won't help his case, I fear.

You shouldn't keep bad company when you want to stand up for your principles.

UK specific - Re:DMCA coming to Europe

[dackroyd]

There is a UK specific part of the Eurorights group which can be found at uk.eurorights.org.

A total deviance in topic

[hearingaid]

I've actually lived in Iceland. It's not capitalist. They accept restrictions on the market that would make most Americans, including many who consider themselves quite left-wing, react with horror.

Medieval Iceland wasn't precisely anarchist. They did have a court system, for example. There was a lack of an organized executive, yes, but that's not quite the same thing. (Although I used to think so when I was a teenager, so I understand the confusion. :)

Feudalism has everything to do with corporations. It was what created them: before the feudal state, there were no real corporations. After feudalism, we have the great corporate landowners (guilds, churches, chivalric orders and so on).

The important point about feudalism is that it is based on fictional property rights. People can't own land the way they own personal property: at least, not most of the land. (You can effectively control access to houses and that sort of thing.) Our land law is still built on the illusion that people can really own land. For example, if I rent an apartment, I can change the locks, thus denying my landlord physical access to the land - yet he, she or it still owns the land, and can even sell it legally. This is the essential rule of real property which underlies feudalism, and which we continue to follow in the modern era. A careful examination of pre-feudal, especially non-agrarian, legal systems will reveal a complete absence of this fictional kind of property. With my computers, if I don't have access to the machines themselves, then I don't own them. Perhaps somebody has stolen them from me: but I still don't have them, and I can't sell them to somebody else until I get them back. Real property, on the other hand, can't be stolen. Intellectual property is like real property: it's a legal fiction, granting rights which could not be obtained without the force of the law. I think that modern technology corporations bear remarkable similarity to some of the larger medieval corporations, such as some of the chivalric and monastic orders.

States need gangs of thugs: but in most states, they're organized in some way and follow the dictates of the state. In a fascist state, the gangs are non-organized and act as a primary directing force of the state, in a similar way to the way that they act in organized crime. Examine the history of the fascisti in particular.

As for whether people are reading this, much to my surprise I got modded up (I'm always surprised, I never can figure out why: many of my best comments languish in obscurity, while my offhand jokes get modded up and down eighteen times; I don't get it) on my first comment, so maybe we do have fans. after all, geeks read this site. :) however, I will skip my bonus from now on.

Do most people speak english in Russia?

[flatrock]

Do you really think that the software sold in the US had it's menus and help in Russian? He obviously knew the software was being written for export outside of Russia.
He wrote the software. His employer paid him to write the software. If the law was broken (that's for the court to decide), he profited from the crime. I also don't think he was unaware that it would be sold in the US. I curious how US laws address this, I'll definately be watching this case carefully. I've just found that in the past when something seems as unreasonable as Mr Sklyarov being charged with a crime in the US, there is usually more to the story. I also know that prosecuters don't like to prosecute high profile cases unless they've got a good chance of winning. I'm going to wait until I hear more about the evidence before I decide if I think Mr Sklyarov is a innocent victim.

Re:Do most people speak english in Russia?

[rking]

Not jumping to conclusions too soon and wanting to hear the evidence as the case progresses is very reasonable.

The thing about language is just a red herring though, even leaving aside the fact that English is the closest thing we have to an international language. I don't think you could reasonably conclude from English language menus that a product was destined for the USA but I would expect he was aware of the markets in which his company trades anyway; I just don't think that makes him liable for his employer complying with the laws in those countries or failing to do so.

For example, if a man works writing computer games and is asked to translate the messages in the game into French (whether he does the translation himself or whether he just inserts text provided to him by his employer) then I don't think it's a reasonable expectation that he should be liable to prosecution if the game is illegal under French law for e.g. excessive violence. All he should have to worry about is whether it is lawful for him to write the game in the jurisdiction in which he does so and to enter into the contract with his employer in the jurisdiction in which he does so. Expecting him (as opposed to his employer or the distributor or whoever was actually trading in those markets) to obtain legal advice on all aspects of the product for all export markets is wholly unreasonable.

I don't know what you do for a living but you can apply this reasoning to most products. "You designed this seat belt for Ford, you knew one of their markets is Turkey, you are liable for the failure to comply with the Turkish law that requires..."

Re:"Effectively" doesn't mean what you think it do

[iabervon]

[IANALE]

That sounds to me like the method of gaining access needs to have a secret process or information (i.e., key); otherwise the "with the authority of the copyright owner" bit fails.

That is, I can't release a version of gv that checks whether you're the authorized person, release a normal PDF document, and sue Adobe because their program breaks my scheme. Although, in the normal course of operation (of my program), you need my permission to access the document, you don't need to use information or a process or a treatment that requires my permission.

It's not so much that eBooks are easily broken as that there's nothing particular novel about the way to do it. Breaking CSS, for instance, requires a specialized program, whereas eBooks can be broken without anything specialized.