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Sklyarov Clarifies Circumstances of Release, Testimony
*ZiggyP0P* writes: "We remember hearing how Dmitry was let off and released (so he can finally go home) but how he had to cooperate with the government in the prosecution of his employer as a plea bargain. Turns out that this was all a lie by the Justice Dept. Skylarov has released his own statements which explain what exactly happened. He has entered into no legal plea bargain and he is still employed by Elcomsoft (even though the justice dept called him his former employer)."
I'm glad for the opportunity to see exactly where they lied, though. Thanks, Dmitry.
-Legion
Spin spin spin. It looks like the gov't is backpedaling fast and putting on spin in hopes it will all go away.
"Cooperate" probably means he agreed to take their phone calls.
Some junior D.A. probably wanted to make a career on a "big, bad, Russian hacker" and found out real life isn't like a Hollywood movie.
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
Can he sue for being wrongfully imprisoned? I mean, he was jailed for 5 months, does he get some kind of reparation for his trouble?
No sig for you.
Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Janet Reno, FBI @ Waco, Ruby Ridge, etc.
The gov't has demonstrated not only a willingness, but an eagerness to lie on all fronts over anything that might be potentially embarrasing.
Why stop now?
Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
sounds to me like the gov't is just trying to cover what they finaly realised to be a big mistake on their part... now they need to make it look like they are going easy on him out of sympathy or his "cooperation."
i also remember in another article (can't remember where), his employer even offered to stand trial in his stead if they released dimitry... i found that to be quite admirable myself
I believe sex is highly over rated... unless it involves me
If the statement by Skylarov is indeed the "Fact" then he should have a very good case for Defamation charges against the US government. Hope they file this is a Russian court so any claims agains the company will have a local offset. The DOJ made a mistake but they can't admit to that. Anyone found it poetic Justice that Adobe was barred from selling InSIde due to Patent Infringements.
Help fight continental drift.
Is how they are trying to use this crap to "teach" a lesson. Know your rights!!!!
I think that Neo said it best:
"How bout I give you the finger and you give me my phone call."
I still think the biggest punk in the whole process is Adobe...they backed out of the process in order to save some face on thier own knowing full well it was too late to stop the prosecution. grrr....
Lying and withholding the truth are separated by a thin line - so what if the government lied? big deal and theres no Santa Claus - wait ask the govt. if theres one - maybe JD is holding him ? You never know ha? ~Atari2600
In a recent article in an English magazine 'Linux Format', it had a sort of guide to the dmca, what it meant etc, some of the things it went on about was that if Sklyarov was released, it could mean that the DMCA could be removed from US law, also being an infingement of the US's first amendment (freedom of speech)
Mostly though, i think most people should be thinking, 'WHAT HAPPENS NOW'.
What is the next direction for the goverment, and the anti-DMCA people (people with common sense) and where will this put the SSSCA.
Before Dmitry was detained, who had heard of Elcomsoft? Apparently, they had sold very few copies of their software. Not that they'd asked for it, but now they've got more publicity than they could have paid for. I wonder if sales are picking up too? Could it be that Adobe's strategy has completely backfired?
Is Russia an extridition treaty country (IANAL)?
I was just wondering, when he goes back to Russia, and Dmitry and his employer decide that the USA has no legal authority over them, and the Russian government agrees, would he still come back to the USA for a trial?
Seems like a viable option to me, if possible.
Any ideas?
Turns out that this was all a lie by the Justice Dept.
What exactly was a lie? He did enter into an agreement. The government never said that he admitted guilt. Sure, they screwed up the employment status, but that is likely a minor oversight, not a lie. Much more minor than slashdot's "lie", saying that he agreed to testify against Elcomsoft.
Well, the thing about this whole mess is, they jumped on Dmitry to, in my opinion, try and make an example out of him, or maybe set some precedent for the DMCA. There was a huge backlash about it. Even Adobe left it alone after all the protesting began. I think everyone pretty much agreed that it was a rediculous case to try this guy for doing something that isn't illegal in his country. So the government tried to get out of it. And lying about it was a lot better than telling the truth, cause the truth was basically, "We were wrong." Whereas the lie came out like the government actually had some right in the matter.
just my 2 cents
No sig for you.
And if we really think our own government is so evil, why are we still here?
personally i don't think our government is evil... just filled with greedy incompetents...
why are we still here? mostly because we are spoiled and complacent (and can't spell)
Why is it that, when it's the Government's word versus some cracker's, everyone always wants to believe the cracker?
this this case i believe the "cracker" simply because he's being charged with breaking a law that doesn't apply in his country... this is about as silly was an american gun maker/seller being arrested in japan for making/selling guns in the us...
I believe sex is highly over rated... unless it involves me
The FULL TEXT of the document regarding Skylarov
Further, deponent sayeth not (at least in this message ...)
Sig: What Happened To The Censorware Project (censorware.org)
Everytime I read yet another update to this semingly never-ending ordeal, one thing that remains constant is what a wonderful employer Elcomsoft must be to work for. They've stood by Dmitry's side beginning with day one, they're still hanging in there fighting for him, and their CEO even offered himself up in a bizarre "hostage exchange" scenario.
I hope all of the employees of Adobe are truly embarrassed about this.
Maybe I am putting words in your mouth that you never meant but it seems to me that going back to the "Source" is not quite valid. The issue at hand is the perception that he had admitted "wrongdoing" that is perpetrated by the DOJ / Press release. We have seen again and again the government's refusal to protect its citizen, let alone a foreigner, from its own misconduct. This got to stop.
Help fight continental drift.
This actually means two things
1.Dimitry will not face any charges, nor will have a felony record.
2.Since this is not a case of testifying against Elmsoft, this means that a challenge to the DMCA is still possible, with a legitimate corporation with relatively large coffers defending itself.
So really, the tech-culture gets its day in court without any criminal reprecussions and we get a constitutional challenge to a very unconstitutional law.
Way to go, DOJ, I knew you were on our side!
http://cincyboys.blogspot.com/ Everything Cincinnati. Including the word 'Finnih'
My only problem with this lie is that the "admissions" Dmitry was supposed to have made would be part of the public record. Therefore there would have to be a document somewhere with Dmitry's signature on it. If there isn't, than this becomes just as embarrasing for the gov.
Why go through all this? A lie like this is too obvious. Once Dmitry is out of the country, he is out of reach. Somehow I doubt very much that Moscow is going to send him back here as a witness against his current (not former) employer, in a case that involves something that isn't a crime in Russia.
Maybe the prosecutor's Christmas bonus depends on not losing face.
What a farce.
Young man,
there's no need to feel down
Because your plane
back home can't get off the ground
I said young man,
Get comfy in your new town
There's no need to be unhappy.
Young man,
There's no place you can go
I said young man,
Until you cough up some dough
You will stay here
until you've served all your time
For your insignificant crime.
It's fun to stay in the U S of A,
Because of that old grand D M C A
For cracking DVD's,
Or an e-book or three,
You'll get jailed for eterniteeeee...
It's fun to stay in the U S of A
Because of that old grand D M C A
For proving to the world
That our encryption's a toy
You'll get jailed with all the boyyyyyyys...
-------------------------------------------------
charlton heston is more of a man than yo
You do realize that not everyone here is American, don't you?
Why is it that, when it's the Government's word versus some cracker's, everyone always wants to believe the cracker? Doesn't the Justice Department have a lot more to lose by lying about this?
No. This is business as usual for a PR agency (government or otherwise). This is what PR agencies do (government or otherwise). It is INDIVIDUALS who have most to lose if they make the slightest mistep. Lives and families have been trashed over much less, but corporations and government institutions do it daily, and nobody really cares.
Hell, the PURPOSE of a corporation is to protect member individuals from the law, much like what happens in a government institution, where there are multitudes of ways (yes, even legal ones) to CYA.
They might have let him go free, but did they zip his mouth and implant a tracker bug through his navel?
-- In the beginning was the WORD, and the WORD was UNSIGNED, and the main(){} was without form and void...
... because I would like some fries with that, and no, to answer you question, I don't want to super size it for $0.29 more.
Oh, and did you ever finish that GED or get the hitch to your trailer home fixed?
"And if we really think our own government is so evil, why are we still here?"
Should be, "why is the government still there", but then again, that would date from the days when people in the United States expected their votes to be counted rather than ignored.
"Doesn't the Justice Department have a lot more to lose by lying about this?"
Again, only if they can be affected by a vote tally. Heck, the so-called opposition party in your country can't even muster enough gumption to ask Ashcroft a few good questions when he's at a Judiciary Committee hearing for the purpose of defending some of his recent decisions. So Justice can continue their great tradition of lying without any great problems developing from it.
This proves two things:
1) It must be obvious to everyone that the DMCA is unconstitutional
2) DMCA type laws are never going to go away till we attack the root of the problem, copyrights
Unless you think that we're going to conjure up a propaganda machine the size of the movie industry, or that the government will suddenly start protecting liberties again, civil disobedience is the only way to go.
um.. bin laden's act was an act of war... dimitri did not kill anyone and as far as i know no one has directly died because of his software either...
1- i don't know saudi law, but i am guessing mass murder is against it...
2- also, bin laden's act happened in us jurisdiction... dimitri wrote the software in russia where it is in violation of no russian laws
I believe sex is highly over rated... unless it involves me
I hope all of the employees of Adobe are truly embarrassed about this.
I'm embarassed about this, because my government is making our country look like an ass.
It's one thing to accuse the government of being corrupt. It's quite another to pin the blame for this corruption on the very parties who tried to clean it up.
I'd very much appreciate you explaining each one of these incidents.
I'm very much curious what you think Janet Reno did that was wrong. The only thing I can recall is her listening to the Republican appointees in the FBI when she first took office. Thus begat Waco. Both her and President Clinton apologized for that, and cleaned house in the FBI.
What always amazes me is how ignorant, stupid and partisan Republicans are. This idiot is trying to pin the blame for Ruby Ridge on the Clinton Administration when the event occured in '92.
But I'll bet back in '92 if it had gained any news coverage this moron would have claimed we shouldn't criticize the FBI because that's not patriotic.
It makes me want to puke just thinking that my family has died protecting the rights of scum like this.
I just think the media has their heads up their asses. There was some developement in the Skylarov case on the news the other day, and the reporter's referred to him as a "Bay Area man"! I guess he sort of his, seeing as how he's been living in California for a few months, but wouldn't it be more accurate to call him Russian?
The future isn't what it used to be.
We don't have to trust anyone--we can look at the facts. The software is out there.
And there are two issues anyway. First, is Sklyarov guilty under current law? Second, is current law (DMCA, etc.) just or was it created in response to undue influence of large media corporations on the political process?
And if we really think our own government is so evil, why are we still here?
In real life, to most people, a corrupt or lying government is not sufficient reason to leave as long as it isn't too bad and the economy is working. I have certainly lived in countries with much better government than the US has. And I know many people who have voluntarily stayed in countries with worse governments (including East Germany).
my understanding about russian copyright law, is that the consumer needs to be able to make a backup copy of media that you sell in russia. now asuming i'm correct about this, that software in question made adobe's e-books legal to sell in russia (since they were uncopyable previously)
as for credit card fraud across international borders, i have no idea how the laws on that work so i don't know if you point is valid or not... (although i am hopingthere is some kind of mutual agreement on things like that
i'm not gonna argue it either way
my main counterpoint to you was that bin laden was not a just comparason for dimitri
I believe sex is highly over rated... unless it involves me
In the article, ElcomSoft's statement about backing Skylarof, expecting nothing but the truth, etc. are just amazing. This is the second time I've read a press release from them where they condemn the US DOJ for holding the programmer and not the company employing the programmer responsible. Their press releases have all made me rethink what I thought of as good employers here in the good old US of A. Would your employer go to the mat for you? Think about it.
You have it so wrong, please actually think about the facts before spouting off, like some brainless slashdroid. Using your analogy it would properly be stated like this...
An American gun maker/seller being arrested in
Japan for making guns in the US & selling them in Japan.
If his dumbass company would not have had their servers located in the US, it would not be an issue, but because the servers were physically located in the US, it is breaking the law *IN THE US* (download from Chicago, and the credit card transactions occur from a town in Washington, both IN THE US). That's what all the mindless droids don't get, it's not that it was created in Russia and somehow we are locking up people who do things legal in their home country when they come to the US. As long as they don't do their shit *in the US* then we don't do shit (and looking over history we haven't done anything until they physically bring it to the US). This was the entire point of Sealand (Havenco) do your shit in their country where just about anything is legal and other countries can't touch you, because your doing transactions physically in another country.
Sheesh, sometimes people really need a cluestick to the head.
personally I think that the government is going to jerk around until enough people forget about this. I think in hind sight they do not want this very high profile case to go to court, likewise none of the media companies want it there either. They want this law to sit on the books for awhile and become "accepted" before anyone tries to test it. I'm sure another year from now we'll here some snippet blurb saying that the govt and elcomsoft entered into a "Plea" agreement where elcomsoft agree's not to sell the product in the US in exchange for the small slap on the wrist or "deferred" sentencing. What a joke!
"Do not be swept up in the momentum of mediocrity." - anon
"Dimitry's" program is under US copyright law a "work for hire", and therefore was not even his to begin with. It was also legal in Russia, and legal in the pre-1998 US. And, if anything, a civil, not a criminal case.
Furthermore, Dmitry's program doesn't steal anything. It has entirely legitimate uses:
1) Making a backup copy.
2) Copying your legally purchased ebook to your other desktop and laptop systems for use on them.
3) Enabling the blind to hear the ebooks be read to them.
The DMCA which Dmitry is accused of violating is blatantly Unconstitutional. A lot of people were shot, stabbed, blown up, poisoned, run over, and immolated in the US in the past year. Yet, there are no laws prohibiting without exception the manufacture or distribution of guns, knives, explosives, arsenic, cars, and gasoline.
Why then is there a law prohibiting the manufacture or distribution of a device that can circumvent ebook encryption? THERE IS ONE, BECAUSE IT WAS BOUGHT.
A government's just powers are derived from the consent of the governed. The governed only empower the gov't to act in the greater good. The DMCA doesn't even pretend to be in the greater good, its sole purpose is to give copyright hoarders ("Content Providers") unlimited control over the content they sell to the public. Control they never had before, and are not granted under the clause in the Constitution upon which copyright law is based.
Why was Dmitry arrested? "His" program was under US Copyright Law a "work for hire", and therefore he never owned it in the first place.
You're a troll, of course, but this provides the opportunity to point out that Skylarov's story tallies exactly with the EFF press release account, dated 12-13. So there's no need to "trust" Skylarov to believe him, assuming one trusts the EFF.
The government not only lied, but the lies were transparent to start with. If Skylarov had agreed to testify against his "former employers," why would this page be available?
I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
Sorry, he got modded down to -1. Wasn't flaming you.
If his dumbass company would not have had their servers located in the US, it would not be an issue, but because the servers were physically located in the US, it is breaking the law *IN THE US* (download from Chicago, and the credit card transactions occur from a town in Washington, both IN THE US).
could you point me to a refrence for this? i hadn't read anything like that, but even in this instance... it would be adobe which should be filling charges against elcomsoft... amybe even giving them a warning... that would have been a better way to approach it rather than arresting programers who were not aware of any wrongdoing
as for the dcma itself i don't honestly think it will hamper the efforts of pirates in the least... what they are doing is already ilegal, does making another law really deter them?
I believe sex is highly over rated... unless it involves me
Judging by some people's comments, I'm not sure some of them are even from earth. Or, if they are, I'm not quite sure they're really "there" in terms of their mind.
WWJD.... for a Klondike bar?
On the indictment releaser by the DOJ list the places that they physically host their servers in the US where someone in California acquired all of the software from Elcomsoft completely within the US.
e ts /2001_08_28_sklyarov_ind.pdf
Page 2 Lines 26-28 & Page 3 Lines 1-4
Page 4 line 1-2
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/can/press/assets/appl
There are mutliple things to blame here:
Elcomsoft for actually doing their transactions within the US.
Clinton & Congress for passing the DMCA
but you hit the head on really who's to blame, Adobe. But, the one group who I'd really not put any blame on is the DOJ. The law was technically violated, Adobe called up the DOJ and essentially forced them to hall him in (the law was technically violated, and that's their job). The reason why Adobe probably first called for a criminal case, was to prevent him from leaving the US, so they could procede with a civil suit against him (kinda twisting & perverting the law to their own use). Adobe saw what a bad publicity wreck they made and tried to sweep it under the rug, only problem is once the DOJ has filed against you, you gotta go through the entire process (painful as it may be, it keeps corporations & powerful people from being able to try and circumvent the law with powerful friends).
I personally think that the DMCA paints with too broad of a brush, but when people complain without having the proper facts it hurts everyone else who is trying to change things, since the same groups of people are stating two different things. If the people on the same side trying to fight the law can't get things straight then both sides tend to lose credibility. Which is why I was a bit curt with you earlier.
Surely you've GOT to be kidding! Our Govt. NEVER lies !
(please mod this up as funny)
thank you for the pointer, i'll go check it out when i have time.
,no problem. it's actually refreshing to have a debate with someone who actually is willing to stick to his points, has facts to back them up... and learn something new in the process. don't you just love how complicated legal technicalities get?
me, i just have my opinions based on the limited amount of reading i've done. as for being curt
I believe sex is highly over rated... unless it involves me
I live in Texas, and I still don't think the govt did anything legally wrong at Waco. All I know is, a bunch of nutties with guns were down there plotting to eventually kill me and my family, and a bunch of govt agents got themselves shot trying to take them out before they all killed themselves.
It blew my mind how conservative talk radio immediately tried to picture these guys as, "Just peaceful, churchgoing, religious folks exercising their 2nd amendment priviliges.
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
Apology accepted. Please accept mine.
I think the contents of this webpage are a bit extreme, but the USA has probably contributed (directly or indirectly) to the deaths of large numbers of people, at home and abroad, in the name of greed and control. Unfortunate, but probably true.
I hope one day the USA will return to the Constitution and lawful behavior, and perhaps even start visualizing utopia again.
Treatment, not tyranny. End the drug war and free our American POWs.
See my user info for links.
But the DOJ statement never uses the term "Plea Agreement", nor does it claim that Dmitri admitted to "wrongful" conduct.
Dmitri claims that he is not cooperating with the government.
But in the Diversion Agreement he agrees to testify if requested by the government in the case of United States v. Elcom Ltd., agrees that any statements he makes may be used against him in a prosecution for obstruction of justice or perjury, and waives most of his constitutional rights in exchange for a promise that he will not be prosecuted if he lives up to his end of the Agreement. Not cooperation?
And ElcomSoft says that Dmitri's testimony can only be supportive to their case and they only want Dmitri to tell the truth.
But of course, ElcomSoft is still a defendant facing criminal prosecution in this case, and criminal defendants always claim that when the true facts come out, they will be shown to be innocent.
So once you cut through the spin that Dmitri, ElcomSoft and the EFF (none of whom are neutral, disinterested parties in this case) put on it, the only real undisputed inaccuracy in the DOJ statement is the bit about the "former" employer. Which is probably a misreading of Dmitri's statement in the Diversion Agreement that "continuing through July 15, 2001, [he] was employed by" ElcomSoft.
Remember that PR works for both sides, folks.
Truthfully, I was nodding when I read your original post. Our founding fathers had the luxury to flee to a completely new continent (albiet one populated by some pesky indigenous peoples that needed wiping out). We, however, have no such luxury. When people say idiotic things like "love it or leave it" they don't think to ask "leave for where?"
Another continent ruled by ogilarchy and the same corporations as every where else? Bummer.
that you've probably watch too much Judge Judy.
Credit Card Fraud is illegal in Russia. Chances are, if something isn't illegal just about everywhere (such as murder, real theft, etc) then it probably isn't a big deal.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Child-Rape is the only law that applies to US citizens outside of the US. If you went to another country and shot somone, then came back, you wouldn't be charged with murder if it wasn't illegal in the country you were in.
Also, US law does not apply to non-US citizens when out side of the US. If dimitry Skylarov fucked a 15 year old in thailand before he came to the US he wouldn't be charged with child-rape a long with got here.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
can we pressure the Russsians to round up and arrest any/all Adobe employees in the country and lock 'em up?
No. We can't.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
He was in jail for a couple weeks. then they let him out on bail.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Forget Skylarov, I want to know more about this beautiful and intelligent Lisa Rein person!!!
*swoon*
I predicted that he would be let go without a trial, and here is my original comment from the September slashdot thread:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=22120&cid=2371 611
(there's not supposed to be a space between the 1 and the 6)
Saw it coming.
Rich...
Ignore Alien Orders
An AC wrote:
> I think that the US backed out of the Dimitry case in order to defend
> the DMCA which would in all likelyhood not have withstood supreme
> court scrutiny.
You may be right. Usually the reason laws don't withstand supreme court scrutiny is because they are unconstitutional. The US Constitution is the supreme law of the land; any law that violates it has no right to exist. It is not the place of the Department of Justice to defend possibly unconstitutional laws from the Supreme Court just because special interest groups like them (BSA, RIAA, MPAA).
> I think this was a wise move because the DMCA is a powerfull tool to
> protect our national intellectual property
1) It isn't "our national intellectual property", it's Adobe's property, and Adobe has dropped the charges and asked for the man's release.
2) It doesn't matter how powerful a tool it is. Our national Constitution is far more important. You know, the document that waxes eloquent on freedom of speech and the press?
> in countries such as Russia
> and China where there is no respect for US law.
What?!? Do you mean the US doesn't actually rule the world? That other countries get to have their own governments? Imagine that!
Come on, Tok Wira, these sharks have gotta pay!
New Kirk calling Mothra, we need you today!
You americans should be sick of your governments behaviour. Lying? Urging the people not to question their government? Regular people being harrased for just that thing by the Secret Service and FBI? You my freinds are living in a totalinarian police state. Enjoy living in 1984 for the rest of your life. Personally, I never cared for being forced by the government to think their way and being threatened by a federal agency to do so or "you are in line with the terrorists", but I'm in a country which is still required by law to allow it's people to question government. I'm in a country where satire against the government(and corporations) is still allowed. I'm in a country where the person who gets the most votes in an election is the winner. In short, I don't live in the USA.
It's been a long time.
People have spent years on death row in this country and haven't been reimbursed one cent. Apparently when the justice system frames you, sends you to jail, ruins your life for ever they don't even owe you an apology.
That's our society!
War is necrophilia.
Man homosexuals are some sick bastards. I thought raping little boys was bad enough but this is the product of a truly vile and sick bastard.
I used to feel sympathy for their plight (after all it doesn't seem fair to discriminate agains them) but stuff like this makes me rethink those positions.
War is necrophilia.
Yeah, she's a hottie and can sing too; I found here website here
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
Am I the only one unsettled by the ease by which this statement can be shown?
Albuquerque PC
See, that where's our opinion differs.
I had more the impression that they politely tiptoed back, after realizing that their disgraceful action wasn't that good in terms of public relations.
They're still the bad guys with lots of egg on their face, which just won't wash off.
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
The charge that the DMCA has not yet been upheld in court, therefore what he is being charged with hasn't been proven to be a crime
yet, anyways!
It is possible to write bad programs in Perl just like in C or any other language. It is also possible to write efficient and maintainable programs in Perl.
So the Government lied... So Dimitry lied... I guess that cancels each other out. The main issue is that he did create a piece of software that's only purpose (once released to the public) was for the illegal decryption and reading of eBooks. I make the distinction that if he had kept the software to himself then the government would have no case. But no, in typical computer geek pseudo penis waving fashion he wanted to show off. The difference is knowing when to have self control and Dimitry did not exhibit any self control. I do not claim to be a hacker or even understand the mindset of a hacker. What I do know is that he went beyond just investigating the encryption and protection of eBooks and moved to the exploitation of its weeknesses.